AOQ Angel Review 2-9: "The Trial"
Arbitrar Of Quality
episodes in these review threads.
ANGEL
Season Two, Episode 9: "The Trial"
(or "Curses! Foiled again!")
Writers: Douglas Petrie and Tim Minear; story by David Greenwalt
Director: Bruce Seth Green
If I were to take "chronological order" literally, I'd start with
the flashbacks, which hit yet another hitherto untold episode in the
lives of Angel and Darla. Oddly, this story only runs parallel to the
main show for about half of TT, then gets dropped, and doesn't add a
huge amount to the show for me. Anyway, it shows Angelus all geared up
for a big dramatic fight to the death, together with his sire... and
Darla heartlessly (and soullessly) putting herself first. Not the last
time we'll see characters denied the deaths they would have chosen
for themselves. If there's a deeper connection than that, I'm
missing it. Maybe to show Angel going to the kind of lengths for her
that she didn't for him?
In present times, the teaser starts off with a been-there-done-that
feel. Have we opened enough teasers and first acts with Cordelia and
Wesley wondering out loud about Angel's reclusive behavior yet? Then
the episode shows it knows what it's doing when Angel unexpectedly
seems to start getting his life on track and gives a very reasoned
speech about knowing his limitations. That's soon revealed to be a
total lie, concocted because "I figured you'd nag." Boreanaz's
delivery is hilarious throughout.
And from there, on to Darla. I criticized parts of Benz's
performance back in the character's eponymous episode. Fans will be
pleased to know that I have no complaints at all this week in that
regard. She's perfect with those big sad eyes and quiet desperation.
I've always thought of Darla as one of our most fun-loving vampires,
maybe in large part because I was comparing her to other BTVS S1
villains at the time. Now I'm not so sure. She takes pleasure in
the joy of eating, sure, but it's more restrained and elegant than
I'd originally picked up on. And now this week, we get another look,
the best one yet, at how much pain she can be holding while seemingly
having a good time.
The bar sequence is another good bit of comedic writing leading into
one of the episode's more powerful scenes. "Ah, well, that kind of
sounds like commitment to me." Funny stuff. And I don't know
whether I should be more worried that it took Darla this long to find a
dumb vampire to help her out, or that the idea never even occurred to
me. One can see her eagerness to be "whole" again, empathize with
her revulsion over how today's vampires don't have a clue, and if
one can be swayed to sympathize with evil, maybe even a little angry at
Angel for "saving" her, not letting her end her life her way. So,
nicely done, show. The exchange afterward hits some right notes, like
"I do what I have to do," from the once-and-present-whore, and the
subdued lashing out of "I always pick the stupid ones, didn't you
know that?" From there, on to the revelation that she's dying.
Which I didn't see coming either; even when she said it, I figured
she was still hung up on dying moment by moment, like a less funny
twist on Anya's issues. Instead, what she was dying of back in the
pre-Darla days has come back to kill her now. It's a fitting idea,
and adds a new layer to the motivations she'd have had anyway.
Angel's suspicions that W&H are making it up are also reasonable, if
wrong.
"So, first up - you're a prisoner." All's I have to say is, heh.
Also. "Yes, but you were just soulless bloodsucking demons, they're
lawyers." "She's right. We were amateurs."
Angel's chat with Lindsey in his place, after the latter is kind
enough to unexpectedly invite the former in, is the one time this week
that I can recall seeing everyone's favorite one-armed lawyer not
follow the W&H line. Not that he's openly defiant or anything, but
it does seem like he got Darla her second, third, etc. opinions based
on his own personal feelings about the matter. As a general rule in
TV-land, when a character is shown drinking alone, he's generally not
in a good headspace.
I wasn't exactly excited to be back in The Host's bar, but for once
these scenes aren't played for comedy. It helps that Darla can sing
(did the actor provide the pipes? That seems to be standard
procedure), which creates a wonderful melancholy mood for the dialogue
underneath it. "She had more than most of us, already 400 plus
years." "As a vampire. Before that she was... she... she never had
a chance." Point and point. Glad the show never has Angel give a
speech explicitly saying why he's so obsessed with saving his
ex-lover either - we already know enough about how his brain works to
know some of the factors involved. I also like the gradual increase of
frequency with which she calls him 'Angel' instead of
'Angelus.'
The flippancy before jumping into the empty pool is sorta funny, in a
low-key way. I'm not much impressed by the Trial itself - decent
enough action scenes, but it's basic stuff. Grunting shirtless hero
ready to give everything for the girl, who watches on and worries, a
guy making arbitrary rules, the thing ending with a test of
character... it's all been done. So it's interesting that I like
the episode as much as I do in spite of this whole sequence. Maybe
because it's not really about the Trial so much as its effect on
Darla, a mechanism by which she can finally understand some of what
Angel's going through. And of course the somewhat telegraphed but
I'd-have-been-disappointed-had-they-done-it-any-other-way futility.
Given that we just had it explicitly stated recently that "the
mystical and the medical aren't meant to mix," a quickie-cure would
be inappropriate; the episode only works if everything's useless.
And Angel's still in denial afterwards. Dude has a thing for
hopeless crusades.
The last exchange between TT's leads didn't do as much for me as it
could have, but props at least for Darla's initial stoicness compared
to Angel's panic, and for the whole idea of getting a second chance
to die. I thought this might be how her story would end. But this
episode is too twisty to close so straightforwardly, and too obsessed
with futility to not tear away any kind of hope it dangles. It's
one of those shows that keeps piling on big moment after big moment.
Sometimes one wonders how everything's ever going to be explained, or
whether things are moving too fast, but the revelations' power is
undeniable. Best to just be thrilled.
Anyway, our final surprise is in my top five (so far) most memorable
closing images in the Buffyverse. (No, I didn't actually make a
list. The only _Angel_ ending that'd rank ahead of it so far is
"Five By Five.") The sudden attack from Lindsey's forces lead to
the captivatingly shot silent scene in which Drusilla glides into the
room, and quickly undoes everything the two have been working towards.
Last thing we see is Darla lowering her head to drink back. Wow.
Far be it from me to dull such an incredible moment with fanwankery and
analysis... actually, it's not far from me at all. So let's talk
about the process of siring a new vampire. We've known from the
beginning that it was "a whole sucking thing" that the vampire had
to specially choose to do. One thing I haven't thought about much is
what happens if the victim doesn't want to drink back. Dru has
hypnotic powers, I know, but she didn't do the hand-wavy thing, so I
think there's more to it than that. Are we meant to believe that
it's instinct to feed, or does it mean that every vampire who's
ever been made was willing, on some level? The latter would put an
interesting spin on things.
So...
One-sentence summary: Keeps the thrills coming and doesn't let up.
AOQ rating: Excellent
[Season Two so far:
1) "Judgment" - Weak
2) "Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been?" - Decent
3) "First Impressions" - Good
4) "Untouched" - Good
5) "Dear Boy" - Good
6) "Guise Will Be Guise" - Decent
7) "Darla" - Good
8) "The Shroud Of Rahmon" - Decent
9) "The Trial" - Excellent]
One Bit Shy
news:1150862703.9...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> ANGEL
> Season Two, Episode 9: "The Trial"
I think I want to go straight to my impression of the episode this time
before reading your review rather than just respond as usual. It's... an
interesting show.
---
The start is quiet enough. Mainly telling us that we're back to Darla this
episode. I got a kick out of Angel lying to Cordy and Angel about
continuing his obsession with Darla because he figured they'd nag otherwise.
Cordy (and to some extent Wesley) is being kind of dense here making a big
deal about refusing to go with Angel on a wild goose chase, when Angel
hadn't asked her, there's no reason to think it's a wild goose chase, and it
makes eminent sense from all points of view to intercept Darla before W&H
anyway. With all the wigged out stuff Angel has done before, why are Cordy
and Wesley trying to make a stand now? Angel has a soul to save. For one
of the most important people in his life. Why wouldn't they get that?
Be that as it may, the first really big part of the episode is sick Darla.
(My first thought was that now we have sick people in both series. Do they
synchronize stuff like that deliberately?)
The last time we saw Darla I speculated that next time we should learn more
of her true nature once she had time to adapt more to the soul. But the
series chose to sidestep that question by introducing a complicating
factor - the illness - instead. It would not seem that Darla had progressed
at all on her own, seeking to be turned now simply to avoid impending death.
I'm a little disappointed since I was really looking forward to seeing what
Darla would craft out of her souled human existence. But the choice is
legit. It's a good twist that keeps the audience guessing. It prolongs the
mystery of what kind of human she would be. And there's even a kind of
justice of the gods thing at work to return her to the fate of her original
human self. Surely her life as a vampire shouldn't act as a kind of reward
for her human life.
The scene of Darla seducing the vampire into turning her is quite
entertaining, albeit fluff. She certainly found a stupid one. I
particularly enjoyed this sequence:
Darla: Well, isn't it true that some vampires choose a mortal, someone they
can sire, someone who, too, can walk those lonely nights, hunting with them,
feeding with them, joining with them?
Vampire: No! That'd just be weird.
Darla: Weird? - It's mythic!
Poor Darla the romantic stuck in a world of oafs.
Of course Angel is working hard to undercut any romantic notion of hers too.
That may be one of his greater offenses in her eyes. I think it's pretty
good writing to have Angel sneer at Darla for wanting to be made by some
creep in a filthy alley and have Darla recall that she made Angelus in an
alley.
Other than once before being put to a kind of trial to get back to Darla,
I'm not sure I get the point of the flashbacks to the barn in France.
Thoughts from anyone else?
Mostly I didn't care about Angel's scene with Lindsey, but I did like
confronting Lindsey with the question of whether he loved Darla. A new
reason for the boys to have at each other.
The scene at the karaoke bar was probably the best one yet. Simply because
the singing was stupendous! I had to watch that scene a couple extra times
just for the song. I'm not much enjoying the Host though. And this is the
second time in a row now that he's sort of steered Angel wrong. I say sort
of, because both times something of value came out of it anyway. But, I'd
be leery in the future if I was Angel.
Then we abruptly switch tone to the stylized world of the trials to save
Darla. I don't have much to say about the play of these scenes. They're
ok. The trials aren't really that hard as such things go, but adequate to
the episode's needs. It's mostly a few minutes of easy entertainment.
I was trying to think what's significant this might say about Angel.
Reaffirming his devotion to Darla wouldn't exactly be news, though I suppose
it brings focus on his newfound dedication to saving her living soul. I am
struck by one moment, as Angel must accept death, and is asked, "Isn't the
world a better place with you in it? You can save so many people. It
seems - she can barely save herself." It's interesting that it can be
presented as some kind of given that the world is better with him in it.
Angel has not always thought so. Back in Amends he was sure he should die.
Even Buffy's pleas were not enough then.
Buffy: Angel, you have the power to do real good, to make amends. But if
you die now, then all that you ever
were was a monster.
---
Angel: Am I a thing worth saving, huh? Am I a righteous man? The world
wants me gone!
Here he is again ready to accept death. But this time he would not seem to
be dying a monster. And the world might not want him gone. That's
progress. Do you suppose Angel thinks so?
In any case, the trial sequence seems to be less for Angel's benefit than it
is for Darla's benefit. The key thing is getting Darla to watch it through
Angel's eyes. And this simple moment:
Darla: Is this how a guy like you gets his rocks off?
Jeeves: Oh, I have no feelings about this contest one way or another,
miss. - Do you?
(It's funny the transcript using Angel's ridiculing name for him. I don't
think he actually calls himself Jeeves.)
It's so Whedonverse like for Darla to find her inner truth through such a
device. In their quiet moment together later, Darla explains.
Darla: Angel, I've seen it now - everything you're going through, everything
you've gone through. - I felt it. I felt how you care. The way no one's
ever cared before - not for me. That's all I need from you.
Even though her life is doomed, this should be a kind of triumph for Angel.
Darla's salvation would be his greatest achievement. It's a sweet moment in
what has developed into a sweet show. I imagine this is where it would end
with some series. But never in a Whedon series.
The actual ending is one of the most shocking, spine tingling and perversely
thrilling closings I've ever seen. It left me gasping.
Lindsey: How did you think this would end?
Not like this, Lindsey. (That sure is a sly meta kind of line.) Drusilla's
grand entrance froze me. It was unbearable watching her impassively glide
directly to Darla, with the music wailing like a chorus of souls in agony.
And then the bite, with the accompanying strings screeching downwards to
death. Dru staring directly into Angel's eyes with a half smile as she cuts
her chest, then draws Darla in with an impression of suckling stronger than
any vampire act I've seen before, and then staring back at Angel again to
close.
Wow. TV doesn't get better than this.
This episode was headed towards a comfortable Good rating. A quietly
poignant show. The ending changes everything. So brilliant in itself. But
also adding a layer of bitter futility to all that happened before. You
know that Angel is going to keep reliving it in agony. So close. So close.
So I can't help raising this to an Excellent now.
It's also noteworthy for pretty much settling a change in the overall feel
of the series. The Darla arc has succeeded in giving purpose to the series
that it was so much lacking the first season. So much so that it's also way
easier to watch episodes like Guise Will Be Guise and The Shroud of Rahmon
too that don't have much to do with Darla. They can be their own interludes
without wondering about when the series is going to find its place. Perhaps
most of all, I've finally reached the place in the series where I'm eager to
find out what comes next. With the exception of Five By Five (which
required follow up), I never had a sense of a future to aim for the first
season. Kudos to Angel for getting itself on a better course.
OBS
Rowan Hawthorn
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for future _Buffy_ and _Angel_
> episodes in these review threads.
>
>
> ANGEL
> Season Two, Episode 9: "The Trial"
> (or "Curses! Foiled again!")
> Writers: Douglas Petrie and Tim Minear; story by David Greenwalt
> Director: Bruce Seth Green
>
>
> analysis... actually, it's not far from me at all.
Heh. Cool! If you weren't already, that would make you a full-fledged
member of the newsgroup.
> So let's talk
> about the process of siring a new vampire. We've known from the
> beginning that it was "a whole sucking thing" that the vampire had
> to specially choose to do. One thing I haven't thought about much is
> what happens if the victim doesn't want to drink back. Dru has
> hypnotic powers, I know, but she didn't do the hand-wavy thing, so I
> think there's more to it than that. Are we meant to believe that
> it's instinct to feed, or does it mean that every vampire who's
> ever been made was willing, on some level? The latter would put an
> interesting spin on things.
I'd suspect it's a little of both. Considering the last scenario first:
even where people don't believe in vampires, almost everyone knows
enough about them to be familiar with their undead semi-immortality. It
seems to me that someone who's at the point of death might be willing to
grasp at that straw in an attempt to save themselves, without thinking
about the consequences. And then, the thought of that semi-immortality
does have its allure; there are enough people in the Real World who
emulate the vampire lifestyle to make it a sure thing that quite a few
people might see that choice as better than what they have now.
As far as the feeding instinct, that's pretty easy:
Of course it's instinct.
The blood is the life.
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Arbitrar Of Quality
One Bit Shy wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1150862703.9...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
> > ANGEL
> > Season Two, Episode 9: "The Trial"
>
> I think I want to go straight to my impression of the episode this time
> before reading your review rather than just respond as usual. It's... an
> interesting show.
More tomorrow, perhaps (it's late), but we had a lot of the same
thoughts, huh?
-AOQ
One Bit Shy
Same here. See you tomorrow.
OBS
Elisi
> Dude has a thing for
> hopeless crusades.
WORD!
> It's
> one of those shows that keeps piling on big moment after big moment.
> Sometimes one wonders how everything's ever going to be explained, or
> whether things are moving too fast, but the revelations' power is
> undeniable. Best to just be thrilled.
And that is what Angel the Series does best. This was why S1 fell so
flat, because Angel is best when it's BIG! I think you should enjoy the
rest of the show. :)
Apteryx
news:1150862703.9...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> episodes in these review threads.
>
>
> ANGEL
> Season Two, Episode 9: "The Trial"
> (or "Curses! Foiled again!")
> Writers: Douglas Petrie and Tim Minear; story by David Greenwalt
> Director: Bruce Seth Green
>
> If I were to take "chronological order" literally, I'd start with
> the flashbacks, which hit yet another hitherto untold episode in the
> lives of Angel and Darla. Oddly, this story only runs parallel to the
> main show for about half of TT, then gets dropped, and doesn't add a
> huge amount to the show for me. Anyway, it shows Angelus all geared up
> for a big dramatic fight to the death, together with his sire... and
> Darla heartlessly (and soullessly) putting herself first. Not the last
> time we'll see characters denied the deaths they would have chosen
> for themselves. If there's a deeper connection than that, I'm
> missing it. Maybe to show Angel going to the kind of lengths for her
> that she didn't for him?
To show the differences between Angel and Darla certainly, but those are not
limited to the fact that ensouled Angel is nobler than unensouled Darla. In
the barn, soulless, Angelus displays an almost Spike-like glee in
anticipating a magnificent fight, even though he expects to die. For Darla
though, survival is everything, at any cost. Those characteristics play
again in the trial itself, and in the end where Darla chooses survival as a
vampire over simple death.
> In present times, the teaser starts off with a been-there-done-that
> feel. Have we opened enough teasers and first acts with Cordelia and
> Wesley wondering out loud about Angel's reclusive behavior yet? Then
> the episode shows it knows what it's doing when Angel unexpectedly
> seems to start getting his life on track and gives a very reasoned
> speech about knowing his limitations. That's soon revealed to be a
> total lie, concocted because "I figured you'd nag." Boreanaz's
> delivery is hilarious throughout.
Indeed, even though Angel learned nothing from the tea.
> I wasn't exactly excited to be back in The Host's bar, but for once
> these scenes aren't played for comedy.
Well there is Angel's ""Yeah, I feel your pain, what with him trying to kill
me and all" in reference to The Host's anguish over the incident with the
swami. But, no, the singing's good, and it certainly sounds like Benz.
> The flippancy before jumping into the empty pool is sorta funny, in a
> low-key way. I'm not much impressed by the Trial itself - decent
> enough action scenes, but it's basic stuff.
A little bit Star Trek, little bit video game. But I liked Jeeves.
> And Angel's still in denial afterwards. Dude has a thing for
> hopeless crusades.
Could be.
> The last exchange between TT's leads didn't do as much for me as it
> could have, but props at least for Darla's initial stoicness compared
> to Angel's panic, and for the whole idea of getting a second chance
> to die.
I thought it showed her growth. As a result of what he went through for her,
she is finally accepting death, which was never an option before. But he
still wants to fight something.
> I thought this might be how her story would end. But this
> episode is too twisty to close so straightforwardly, and too obsessed
> with futility to not tear away any kind of hope it dangles. It's
> one of those shows that keeps piling on big moment after big moment.
> Sometimes one wonders how everything's ever going to be explained, or
> whether things are moving too fast, but the revelations' power is
> undeniable. Best to just be thrilled.
>
> Anyway, our final surprise is in my top five (so far) most memorable
> closing images in the Buffyverse. (No, I didn't actually make a
> list. The only _Angel_ ending that'd rank ahead of it so far is
> "Five By Five.")
Just as well. A list ranking the most memorable closing images, that would
be a tad obsessive. I'm a bit worried about you as it is, just for knowing
its in your top five. Personally, with an ending as great as this, I'm just
inclined to let it affect me as it will, and not try to compare it with
other great endings.
>
> One-sentence summary: Keeps the thrills coming and doesn't let up.
>
> AOQ rating: Excellent
Excellent for me too, and the first AtS episode to get that rating from me.
For me its the 4th best AtS episode, and best in season 2 (the latter is by
a very small margin, which still could be changed; it was narrowly 2nd best
the first time I saw AtS 2, but in three viewings since then, it has
narrowly but consistently held 1st place).
--
Apteryx
Kevin
One Bit Shy wrote:
> The actual ending is one of the most shocking, spine tingling and perversely
> thrilling closings I've ever seen. It left me gasping.
Best viewed with the volume way up, as the soundtrack screams to the
astounding finale. Wow. You both said Wow, and I also say Wow. This
is Drusilla's *first* appearance, other than flashbacks, since the
close of BTVS Season 2. We've seen her in multiple Past scenes, we've
wondered whether she might show up in the Present... And her entrance
still catches us (or me, anyway) by complete surprise. It blows me
away.
Dru was so cool and creepy back in the day, one of my favorite
characters, and I liked Landau's performance almost all of the time.
Her beautiful, terrible show of wicked power in Becoming, in the scenes
with Kendra and with Giles, was central to that paramount episode. In
a way, the final scene of The Trial actually manages to eclipse it.
She is terrifying.
The Darla arc, to this point, and the great adjoining episodes, now put
Angel way ahead of its parent show's Season Five in my book.
--Kevin
Mike Zeares
Kevin wrote:
> One Bit Shy wrote:
> > The actual ending is one of the most shocking, spine tingling and perversely
> > thrilling closings I've ever seen. It left me gasping.
>
>
> Best viewed with the volume way up, as the soundtrack screams to the
> astounding finale. Wow. You both said Wow, and I also say Wow. This
> is Drusilla's *first* appearance, other than flashbacks, since the
> close of BTVS Season 2. We've seen her in multiple Past scenes, we've
> wondered whether she might show up in the Present... And her entrance
> still catches us (or me, anyway) by complete surprise. It blows me
> away.
I don't think I have ever been as freaked out by a scene in a tv
series, before or since. I can't remember if I yelled out loud, or
just in my head, but I remember that feeling of the world slipping off
its axis, the feeling you get when you witness something that your
brain just doesn't want to believe is actually happening.
I was completely unspoiled, and I think so was everyone else. They did
a good job of keeping it secret, including not having Julia's credit
until the closing titles.
-- Mike Zeares
KenM47
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for future _Buffy_ and _Angel_
>episodes in these review threads.
>
>
>ANGEL
>Season Two, Episode 9: "The Trial"
>(or "Curses! Foiled again!")
>Writers: Douglas Petrie and Tim Minear; story by David Greenwalt
>Director: Bruce Seth Green
>
<SNIP>
>
>One-sentence summary: Keeps the thrills coming and doesn't let up.
>
>AOQ rating: Excellent
>
Yes.
"Dru: I’m full and warm, yet all alone.
Angelus: That’s not true, precious. You’ve got us.
Dru: Not in the least. You won’t even have me just a
little bit.
Darla: All you have to do is ask.
Dru: No. His head’s too full of you, grandmother.
Darla: Stop calling me that.
<She hits a chuckling Angelus and pulls him down the
street.>
Dru < following>: Don’t be cross. I could be your
mummy."
--- From "Darla" ---
Ken (Brooklyn)
jil...@hotmail.com
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Darla heartlessly (and soullessly) putting herself first. Not the last
> time we'll see characters denied the deaths they would have chosen
> for themselves. If there's a deeper connection than that, I'm
> missing it. Maybe to show Angel going to the kind of lengths for her
> that she didn't for him?
My personal opinion was that it was to emphasize soulless Darla VS
souled Angel.
> whether I should be more worried that it took Darla this long to find a
> dumb vampire to help her out, or that the idea never even occurred to
> me.
I think she just found one she could control.
> these scenes aren't played for comedy. It helps that Darla can sing
> (did the actor provide the pipes?
It's definitely her voice. Completely consistent. Okay, there's a
chance I'm wrong as I didn't look it up.
> character... it's all been done. So it's interesting that I like
> the episode as much as I do in spite of this whole sequence. Maybe
> because it's not really about the Trial so much as its effect on
> Darla, a mechanism by which she can finally understand some of what
> Angel's going through.
*tangled effort at self-restraint* Just keep in mind... Angel WON.
And what did he win? And what will happen to his prize?
> Far be it from me to dull such an incredible moment with fanwankery and
> analysis... actually, it's not far from me at all. So let's talk
> about the process of siring a new vampire. We've known from the
> beginning that it was "a whole sucking thing" that the vampire had
> to specially choose to do. One thing I haven't thought about much is
> what happens if the victim doesn't want to drink back. Dru has
> hypnotic powers, I know, but she didn't do the hand-wavy thing, so I
> think there's more to it than that. Are we meant to believe that
> it's instinct to feed, or does it mean that every vampire who's
> ever been made was willing, on some level? The latter would put an
> interesting spin on things.
Sadly, that is definitely fan-wanking. But I think more likely it's
the desperate need for fluid combined with, once the vampire's blood
gets in your mouth, perhaps a mystical compulsion to drink?
Remember, when Kralik the vampire made one of the Watchers into a
vampire, there was no dialogue or convincing. Drink, somehow get blood
into the man, and when he came back Kralik pointed out that you can
take TOO much blood, so that the person you're trying to sire doesn't
make it.
Jeff Jacoby
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for future _Buffy_ and _Angel_
> episodes in these review threads.
>
>
> ANGEL
> Season Two, Episode 9: "The Trial"
> (or "Curses! Foiled again!")
> Writers: Douglas Petrie and Tim Minear; story by David Greenwalt
> Director: Bruce Seth Green
[snip]
> The flippancy before jumping into the empty pool is sorta funny, in a
> low-key way. I'm not much impressed by the Trial itself - decent
> enough action scenes, but it's basic stuff. Grunting shirtless hero
> ready to give everything for the girl, who watches on and worries, a
> guy making arbitrary rules, the thing ending with a test of
> character... it's all been done. So it's interesting that I like
> the episode as much as I do in spite of this whole sequence. Maybe
> because it's not really about the Trial so much as its effect on
> Darla, a mechanism by which she can finally understand some of what
> Angel's going through. And of course the somewhat telegraphed but
> I'd-have-been-disappointed-had-they-done-it-any-other-way futility.
Since no one yet has pointed this out , I found it interesting
that Angel was willing to die for Darla (and thereby remove
a champion from the fighta). Yet he was unwilling to remain
human for Buffy (and also remove a champion from the fight).
Yes, I know there's lots and lots of differences between the
situations, but even still I think it's interesting.
Jeff
Elisi
One great difference would be having to be The Mission's True Love vs.
The Noble Champion sacrificing himself... ;)
One Bit Shy
news:967i92drj6o079i5i...@4ax.com...
Cool. I haven't been able to pick up BtVS level of foreshadowing yet in
AtS. That's a good one. I imagine it'll take a second run through for me
to get much sense of how much exists.
OBS
burt...@hotmail.com
>
> AOQ rating: Excellent
Agreed. The closing moments of this episode still get me every time I
rewatch it, but still can't compare to the utter shock and amazement of
the first time I saw it. I was expecting them to go for the sad, quiet
ending, but what they actually did....
And I know you've said that you didn't like the trial scene, but I
think it had an important purpose. It was there to show Darla (and the
audience) what Angel was willing to go through for her. For him to go
through what he did, to be prepared to sacrifice *everything,* and then
have it all taken away from him like that - that rivals "Innocence" for
hurt factor, in my opinion.
One Bit Shy
news:1150873192.4...@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>> The actual ending is one of the most shocking, spine tingling and
>> perversely
>> thrilling closings I've ever seen. It left me gasping.
>
>
> Best viewed with the volume way up, as the soundtrack screams to the
> astounding finale. Wow. You both said Wow, and I also say Wow. This
> is Drusilla's *first* appearance, other than flashbacks, since the
> close of BTVS Season 2. We've seen her in multiple Past scenes, we've
> wondered whether she might show up in the Present... And her entrance
> still catches us (or me, anyway) by complete surprise. It blows me
> away.
>
> Dru was so cool and creepy back in the day, one of my favorite
> characters, and I liked Landau's performance almost all of the time.
> Her beautiful, terrible show of wicked power in Becoming, in the scenes
> with Kendra and with Giles, was central to that paramount episode. In
> a way, the final scene of The Trial actually manages to eclipse it.
> She is terrifying.
I've always been a Dru fan too. What's especially nice about the Becoming
scenes, I think, is that we finally get to see Drusilla in the full glory of
her power. And it's an awesome power. The scene in The Trial is
brilliantly set up to hit with even greater force, but it does depend a lot
on our prior knowledge of who and what Dru is for full effect. The
flashbacks in AtS are enough for the scene to work. But you really need to
have seen Becoming to fully appreciate the menace in her when she appears.
> The Darla arc, to this point, and the great adjoining episodes, now put
> Angel way ahead of its parent show's Season Five in my book.
Well... They're obviously in a different place with a different kind of
story at the moment. But, no, I can't really agree with that assessment.
OBS
kenm47
Kevin wrote:
<SNIP>
>
> The Darla arc, to this point, and the great adjoining episodes, now put
> Angel way ahead of its parent show's Season Five in my book.
>
> --Kevin
I agree. At this point.
Ken (Brooklyn)
burt...@hotmail.com
> The Darla arc, to this point, and the great adjoining episodes, now put
> Angel way ahead of its parent show's Season Five in my book.
Agreed. More than that, it wasn't even close.
Lord Usher
news:129itj4...@news.supernews.com:
> Cool. I haven't been able to pick up BtVS level of foreshadowing yet
> in AtS. That's a good one. I imagine it'll take a second run through
> for me to get much sense of how much exists.
Well, this one's not from ANGEL, and it's more callback than foreshadowing,
but it's pretty cool. From "Amends":
"It wasn't me."
"It wasn't you?"
"A demon isn't a man. I was a man once."
"Oh, yes, and what a man you were -- a drunken, whoring layabout, and a
terrible disappointment to your parents."
"I was young. I never had a chance to --"
"To die of syphilis?"
--
Lord Usher
"I'm here to kill you, not to judge you."
Stephen Tempest
>
>Cool. I haven't been able to pick up BtVS level of foreshadowing yet in
>AtS. That's a good one. I imagine it'll take a second run through for me
>to get much sense of how much exists.
This episode contains some significant foreshadowing itself -
something you're not likely to notice until much, much later...
"Vg'f guvf zna Ubygm. Ubj qbrf ur xrrc svaqvat hf?"
Stephen
- no peeking now!
One Bit Shy
news:lq5j929cuirhi2kud...@4ax.com...
> - no peeking now!
You're mean!
Arbitrar Of Quality
number of the same thoughts.
One Bit Shy wrote:
> Cordy (and to some extent Wesley) is being kind of dense here making a big
> deal about refusing to go with Angel on a wild goose chase, when Angel
> hadn't asked her, there's no reason to think it's a wild goose chase, and it
> makes eminent sense from all points of view to intercept Darla before W&H
> anyway. With all the wigged out stuff Angel has done before, why are Cordy
> and Wesley trying to make a stand now? Angel has a soul to save. For one
> of the most important people in his life. Why wouldn't they get that?
Hadn't thought of it that way. I do think his behavior has been
weirder over a longer period of time than they've known since working
for him.
> The last time we saw Darla I speculated that nee we should learn more
> of her true nature once she had time to adapt more to the soul. But the
> series chose to sidestep that question by introducing a complicating
> factor - the illness - instead. It would not seem that Darla had progressed
> at all on her own, seeking to be turned now simply to avoid impending death.
>
> I'm a little disappointed since I was really looking forward to seeing what
> Darla would craft out of her souled human existence.
Since she was dying moment by moment or whatever, I don't think the
illness changes things as much as one might think. It makes everything
a little more urgent, and convinces Angel that this is something he can
help her with, but the underlying issues and choices play about the
same way. It's just that we get the excitement of seeing it in one
episode rather than over sixty years.
> Darla: Well, isn't it true that some vampires choose a mortal, someone they
> can sire, someone who, too, can walk those lonely nights, hunting with them,
> feeding with them, joining with them?
> Vampire: No! That'd just be weird.
> Darla: Weird? - It's mythic!
>
> Poor Darla the romantic stuck in a world of oafs.
Just leaving that in as a reminder that it's a great little scene, the
whole encounter. Works on a few levels.
> Other than once before being put to a kind of trial to get back to Darla,
> I'm not sure I get the point of the flashbacks to the barn in France.
> Thoughts from anyone else?
I think Apteryx is the only one who tried for an explanation (comparng
the two characters in their views about life and mortality).
> I was trying to think what's significant this might say about Angel.
> Reaffirming his devotion to Darla wouldn't exactly be news, though I suppose
> it brings focus on his newfound dedication to saving her living soul.
It's kind of an extension of his martyr complex to me. He's so
unhesitating about the idea of dying for someone else. Once he's
latched onto someone he's decided to protect, she (almost always) has
his devotion whether she wants it or not.
> Angel: Am I a thing worth saving, huh? Am I a righteous man? The world
> wants me gone!
I thought I'd successfully blocked that one from my memroy. Thanks a
shitload.
> (It's funny the transcript using Angel's ridiculing name for him. I don't
> think he actually calls himself Jeeves.)
Yeah, I noticed that too. I'm pretty sure he's not named in the
episode itself.
> The actual ending is one of the most shocking, spine tingling and perversely
> thrilling closings I've ever seen. It left me gasping.
You're not alone.
> It's also noteworthy for pretty much settling a change in the overall feel
> of the series. The Darla arc has succeeded in giving purpose to the series
> that it was so much lacking the first season. So much so that it's also way
> easier to watch episodes like Guise Will Be Guise and The Shroud of Rahmon
> too that don't have much to do with Darla. They can be their own interludes
> without wondering about when the series is going to find its place. Perhaps
> most of all, I've finally reached the place in the series where I'm eager to
> find out what comes next. With the exception of Five By Five (which
> required follow up), I never had a sense of a future to aim for the first
> season. Kudos to Angel for getting itself on a better course.
Agreed on almost all counts. I'm old fashioned enough that I was
having a little trouble without a singular Big Bad (Darla as a human
was a psychological weapon, but not really a physical threat), but it's
still a good arc. And GWBG and TSOR are worth having in part simply
for pacing purposes, to let some non-Darla time elapse in between the
big moments.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> To show the differences between Angel and Darla certainly, but those are not
> limited to the fact that ensouled Angel is nobler than unensouled Darla. In
> the barn, soulless, Angelus displays an almost Spike-like glee in
> anticipating a magnificent fight, even though he expects to die. For Darla
> though, survival is everything, at any cost. Those characteristics play
> again in the trial itself, and in the end where Darla chooses survival as a
> vampire over simple death.
I don't know if I'd really call it a choice. Again, depends on one's
interpretation of how willing a bit evictim has to be.
> > Anyway, our final surprise is in my top five (so far) most memorable
> > closing images in the Buffyverse. (No, I didn't actually make a
> > list. The only _Angel_ ending that'd rank ahead of it so far is
> > "Five By Five.")
>
> Just as well. A list ranking the most memorable closing images, that would
> be a tad obsessive. I'm a bit worried about you as it is, just for knowing
> its in your top five. Personally, with an ending as great as this, I'm just
> inclined to let it affect me as it will, and not try to compare it with
> other great endings.
Yeah, keeping big lists of where everything ranks in relation to
everything else isn't my thing. Who does stuff like that?
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
One Bit Shy wrote:
> "Kevin" <kl...@ucsc.edu> wrote in message
> news:1150873192.4...@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > The Darla arc, to this point, and the great adjoining episodes, now put
> > Angel way ahead of its parent show's Season Five in my book.
>
> Well... They're obviously in a different place with a different kind of
> story at the moment. But, no, I can't really agree with that assessment.
Yes they are, and I can't either. I think BTVS's been a little more
consistent about keeping me entertained, but I don't know if it's had
any individual episode quite as good as this one this year.
Actually, watching them together, I've found them flip-flopping a bit,
with one tending to get good while the other is faltering, and vice
versa. Other than the crossovers, the only time I can remember giving
both shows Excellents on the same week is when "New Moon Rising" was
paired with the Faith two-parter on ATS.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Excellent for me too, and the first AtS episode to get that rating from me.
Oh yeah, didn't you say you wouldn't rank any ATS episodes Excellent
until late S5, or am I misremembering?
-AOQ
Stephen Tempest
>> (It's funny the transcript using Angel's ridiculing name for him. I don't
>> think he actually calls himself Jeeves.)
>
>Yeah, I noticed that too. I'm pretty sure he's not named in the
>episode itself.
He's not. The script refers to him as 'the Valet'.
Stephen
Kevin
Maybe someone can clear this up for me -- How many sources are there
for transcripts? And how many for The Script? I'd guess many
(varying) ones for the former, because "transcript" isn't official,
right? (Just a fan copying from the episode as aired.) But "the
script" means the shooting script, even the final revision of which
doesn't usually match 100% what we see; are the Angel shooting scripts
(to which Stephen refers) available online, or were they at one time?
I know BTVS scripts were published in book volumes, 5 or 6 eps in each,
from 1.1 WTTH through 3.12 Helpless; were the later ones made available
online?
--Kevin
James Craine
Your right. And it does seem inconsistent. Human Angel can
do more good that dusty Angel. I suppose that one way it was
a selfish act and one way it was a selfless sacrifice. Plus,
in the trial, he was full of adrenaline. (Maybe he suspected
that it was a trick?)
Stephen Tempest
>But "the
>script" means the shooting script, even the final revision of which
>doesn't usually match 100% what we see; are the Angel shooting scripts
>(to which Stephen refers) available online, or were they at one time?
Some of them used to be. Fox's attack lawyers prowl the Internet,
however, sending cease-and-desist orders to anyone who dares to put
them up on a website.
What a shame there isn't an Internet Archive service that keeps caches
of old websites even after their owners took them down...
Other people have bought actual hardcopies of the scripts in various
charity or on-line auctions, I believe. And there are a few scripts
on the DVDs as bonus features.
Stephen
Rowan Hawthorn
And of course, if someone made a request on a certain multimedia site,
someone else *might* see fit to post both the shooting scripts *and*
transcripts there...
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
One Bit Shy
news:1150923205....@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Okay. Rereading, this is one of those episodes where we had an eerie
> number of the same thoughts.
Honest, I wrote it before you posted. I had been thinking about what I
wanted to say about the episode and realized that I just wanted to talk
about it rather then respond to prompts like usual. It's probably the
nature of the episode that draws us to so many of the same places - helped
by it being agreeable to both of us. I mean, we already know that we'll
disagree on episodes too.
But it also may highlight how the process of responding to another will
focus on contradictory opinions and underplay agreement. It's kind of dull
to fill a post up with indeed, quite so, I agree.
I won't be making a habit of it. My preferred analytical style is to use an
existing framework as a departure point. If you want to, you can therefore
consider all my ideas to have started with yours. ;-)
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>
>> Cordy (and to some extent Wesley) is being kind of dense here making a
>> big
>> deal about refusing to go with Angel on a wild goose chase, when Angel
>> hadn't asked her, there's no reason to think it's a wild goose chase, and
>> it
>> makes eminent sense from all points of view to intercept Darla before W&H
>> anyway. With all the wigged out stuff Angel has done before, why are
>> Cordy
>> and Wesley trying to make a stand now? Angel has a soul to save. For
>> one
>> of the most important people in his life. Why wouldn't they get that?
>
> Hadn't thought of it that way. I do think his behavior has been
> weirder over a longer period of time than they've known since working
> for him.
I think a couple of things were bugging me there. In this particular moment
it does make sense for Cordy and Wesley to be worried about Angel's state of
mind. But what they got presented with was both a smart and an aware Angel.
Yeah, he deceived them, but he also told them why - which actually made
sense. Why don't they have the sense to simply understand that Darla is
critically important to him and that the best thing they can do is to
actively help him solve that problem. Intercepting her before W&H does is
the action of the moment and makes eminent sense.
But on thinking about it I think I was more bugged with the general feeling
that Cordy and Wesley are just being left in the dust. Thrown back into
stupid mode for lack of anything else. (To a significant extent Gunn too.)
The Angel/Darla work has been outstanding. But other than a little
character work with Lindsey, what else is really being done with the cast of
the show? A lot has been done to improve the series as a whole, but I think
there still are some pretty substantial elements of it that haven't been
worked out effectively yet. Cordy and Wesley are at the center of that.
This makes me think of the post comparing the current series to BtVS. AtS
has the advantage of a more accutely dramatic thing going on with Darla.
But then the advantage kind of stops. BtVS has a large and still very well
integrated cast with pretty substantial things going on with most of them.
Just a little vent. Hopefully they'll work this out. And it does almost
nothing to diminish this episode.
>> The last time we saw Darla I speculated that nee we should learn more
>> of her true nature once she had time to adapt more to the soul. But the
>> series chose to sidestep that question by introducing a complicating
>> factor - the illness - instead. It would not seem that Darla had
>> progressed
>> at all on her own, seeking to be turned now simply to avoid impending
>> death.
>>
>> I'm a little disappointed since I was really looking forward to seeing
>> what
>> Darla would craft out of her souled human existence.
>
> Since she was dying moment by moment or whatever, I don't think the
> illness changes things as much as one might think. It makes everything
> a little more urgent, and convinces Angel that this is something he can
> help her with, but the underlying issues and choices play about the
> same way. It's just that we get the excitement of seeing it in one
> episode rather than over sixty years.
And 60 years (or 100) probably is the point. Darla working out something
fast on her own probably wouldn't be true to the established mythology. I
see that. It's just that I can't help having this nagging wish to know what
Darla would have come up with on her own. What happened here is so heavily
through Angel's efforts - literally through his eyes. Darla's practically
shamed into her temporary conclusion. But that's just a little wistfulness
on my part. What the episode did is good too - and of course very good as
setup to the reversal of Drusilla's entrance. It's not just about Darla
after all. Angel's the title character, and he's the one that's emotionally
devastated by the turn of events.
>> I was trying to think what's significant this might say about Angel.
>> Reaffirming his devotion to Darla wouldn't exactly be news, though I
>> suppose
>> it brings focus on his newfound dedication to saving her living soul.
>
> It's kind of an extension of his martyr complex to me. He's so
> unhesitating about the idea of dying for someone else. Once he's
> latched onto someone he's decided to protect, she (almost always) has
> his devotion whether she wants it or not.
I'm seeing that suggested. That may be right, but I sense that it's somehow
off a nuance or two. Going that direction it strikes me more as pushing for
the grand gesture - whether he dies or not. Sort of like the Angelus facet
seeking the exquisite kill - not just death. The martyr course works with
Darla because the notion of saving her soul once was beyond the realm of
imagination, the grandest achievement Angel knows. Applied elsewhere I'm
not sure martyr is even relevant. I think he wants more.
>> Angel: Am I a thing worth saving, huh? Am I a righteous man? The world
>> wants me gone!
>
> I thought I'd successfully blocked that one from my memroy. Thanks a
> shitload.
LOL. I forgot how much you disliked the conversation on the hill.
Unfortunately, that is sort of when he got assigned his duty for after
Sunnydale.
Oh, and good catch about Darla saying Angel instead of Angelus. Now I'll
have to watch the episode again just to look for that. Heh.
OBS
Apteryx
I probably said that. It would have been true until this last viewing of The
Trial. I seem to remember talking (or maybe just thinking) about the fact
that I maybe set the standard for "Excellent" a little too high (I think I
set it back when you were reviewing season 2, or late season 1, when there
were plenty of Excellent episodes around even at the standard I set then,
which was a rating of 2.51 to 3.50 on my rating system - low scores good).
As a result I seem to now be giving out "Excellents" less often than you or
others using those terms. Until now there were only 17 BtVS episodes (in all
7 seasons) and 4 AtS episodes (in all 5) with a rating of 3.50 or better.
But I was planning to rate The Trial as "Excellent" anyway. If my last
viewing of it had not edged its rating from its previous 3.55 to over the
3.50 barrier (in practice, that meant I had to like it better than BtVS
3.18, Earshot, which is rated at exactly 3.50), the plan was to use your
review of this episode to announce the devaluation of the Apteryx
"Excellent" to include episodes rated down as far as 3.66. That would have
added 4 more BtVS episodes (2 of which we have already seen, the other 2 are
in season 7) to the ranks of the Excellent, and 2 AtS episodes, the best 2
in season 2.
But in the event, The Trial sailed over the barrier to a new rating of 3.35
(this is the first time I have consistently watched BtVS and AtS
alternately - it may be that seeing The Trial between the BtVS episodes
before and after it made its merits shine out all the clearer). So now the
devaluation of the Apteryx "Excellent" is at least postponed, particularly
as I suspect that The Trial will drag the 2nd best AtS 2 episode over the
3.50 barrier in its wake, as there has never been a large gap between them.
--
Apteryx
Ian Galbraith
[snip]
> Since no one yet has pointed this out , I found it interesting
> that Angel was willing to die for Darla (and thereby remove
> a champion from the fighta). Yet he was unwilling to remain
> human for Buffy (and also remove a champion from the fight).
> Yes, I know there's lots and lots of differences between the
> situations, but even still I think it's interesting.
Inconsistency of characterisation is one reason I never warmed to the
Darla arc despite the big dramatic moments. That and I think Boreanaz
only acts well in the comedic episodes or as Angelus.
--
You can't stop the signal
Lord Usher
>> Just as well. A list ranking the most memorable closing images, that
>> would be a tad obsessive. I'm a bit worried about you as it is, just
>> for knowing its in your top five. Personally, with an ending as great
>> as this, I'm just inclined to let it affect me as it will, and not
>> try to compare it with other great endings.
>
> Yeah, keeping big lists of where everything ranks in relation to
> everything else isn't my thing. Who does stuff like that?
Heh. In case you're wondering, the last scene in "The Trial" is #2.
Arbitrar Of Quality
If you remember IWRY, Angel framed his decision as being for Buffy's
benefit; he felt that as a human he was a liability to her and a direct
threat to her life. (Whether or not that's actually true isn't the
point here, just that the two situations are completely different,
except for maybe Angel's tendency to always make the bigger sacrifice.
No inconsistencies that I can see.)
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
One Bit Shy wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1150923205....@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Okay. Rereading, this is one of those episodes where we had an eerie
> > number of the same thoughts.
>
> focus on contradictory opinions and underplay agreement. It's kind of dull
> to fill a post up with indeed, quite so, I agree.
Indeed.
> I won't be making a habit of it. My preferred analytical style is to use an
> existing framework as a departure point. If you want to, you can therefore
> consider all my ideas to have started with yours. ;-)
I was worried about the competition, so yeah, I'd rather have al these
discussions be a subsidary of my threads. Make me feel all important
and stuff.
(This is flippant humor; I don't actually have a problem with the idea
of Dueling Reviews. As if the show were still on the air or
something...)
-AOQ
Apteryx
> Apteryx wrote:
>
>> To show the differences between Angel and Darla certainly, but those are
>> not
>> limited to the fact that ensouled Angel is nobler than unensouled Darla.
>> In
>> the barn, soulless, Angelus displays an almost Spike-like glee in
>> anticipating a magnificent fight, even though he expects to die. For
>> Darla
>> though, survival is everything, at any cost. Those characteristics play
>> again in the trial itself, and in the end where Darla chooses survival as
>> a
>> vampire over simple death.
>
> I don't know if I'd really call it a choice. Again, depends on one's
> interpretation of how willing a bit evictim has to be.
I don't think we have seen a vampire try to turn a victim and fail due to
the victim's resistance, but we have seen cases where it would have been to
vampire's advantage to turn the victim, but not even try (Angelus when
torturing Giles for info on activating Acathla, or for that matter Angelus
with Jenny - turning her would have been a much greater blow to Buffy and
Giles).
So my take on it is that there is an element of choice. But it's not a free
choice. The vampire stacks the odds heavily in its favour. The victim is
facing imminent death, and their judgment is impaired both from panic and
simply from lack of oxygenated blood to the brain. Only the most determined
can resist the opportunity offered of one last chance of survival.
Darla started the episode wanting exactly this. Angel's relentless fight on
her behalf had affected her to the point where she had changed her mind on
that. But in the end she was not committed enough to what she spoke of as a
second chance to die as she should have 400 years earlier to resist Dru's
blood when it was offered as her one chance of avoiding death right then,
rather than in 2 months time.
--
Apteryx
kenm47
No offense intended. Really. But one of the things that occasionally
drives me nuts in this group is when writers'/creative teams' choices
get conflated into character motivations.
Creatively, and for shock to the audience, Jenny's death and later
array on Giles' bed was much more the heartbreak moment than say Giles
later staking a vampire Jenny (a la Gunn and Alanna).
This was Joss' choice, not Angelus' choice.
Ken (Brooklyn)
peachy ashie passion
>
> No offense intended. Really. But one of the things that occasionally
> drives me nuts in this group is when writers'/creative teams' choices
> get conflated into character motivations.
>
> Creatively, and for shock to the audience, Jenny's death and later
> array on Giles' bed was much more the heartbreak moment than say Giles
> later staking a vampire Jenny (a la Gunn and Alanna).
>
> This was Joss' choice, not Angelus' choice.
>
> Ken (Brooklyn)
>
I think we tend to do it because we require some internal consistency
for our stories.
For that purpose, it makes a great amount of sense that vamps rarely
turn people, and only do so with cause, because otherwise we'd be
wondering all the time why they didn't turn this one or that one.
Gubhtu tbq bayl xabjf jul nalbar jbhyq guvax gurl'q jnag gb fcraq
rgreavgl jvgu Unezbal.
John Briggs
In general, those are not the final shooting scripts - the versions that
'escaped' are the ones issued to the crew about a week before shooting. The
published ones are the final versions (but see later). The ones on the DVDs
tend to be the final versions - in one bizarre instance the DVD version was
later than the published version!
--
John Briggs
John Briggs
> kenm47 wrote:
>
>>
>> No offense intended. Really. But one of the things that occasionally
>> drives me nuts in this group is when writers'/creative teams' choices
>> get conflated into character motivations.
>>
>> Creatively, and for shock to the audience, Jenny's death and later
>> array on Giles' bed was much more the heartbreak moment than say
>> Giles later staking a vampire Jenny (a la Gunn and Alanna).
>>
>> This was Joss' choice, not Angelus' choice.
>
> consistency for our stories.
But it doesn't make sense to embue them with more consistency than the
writers consider necessary.
--
John Briggs
Jeff Jacoby
That wasn't the only thing that weighed into his decision. He also
considered their ability to continue helping/saving people. He said
as much to the Oracles, and later to Buffy...
ANGEL: Buffy. You saw what happened last night. If
anything I'm a liability to you. You take chances
to protect me, and that's not just bad for you, it's
bad for the people we were meant to help.
BUFFY: So what? You just took a whole 24 hours to weigh the
ups and downs of being a regular Joe and decided it was
more fun being a superhero?
ANGEL: You know that's not it. How can we be together if the cost
is your life, or the lives of others?
So there are differences, but not completely different.
Jeff
BTR1701
You didn't need to code that last bit. We've already reached the Vampire
Harmony episodes...
Apteryx
news:1150978847.1...@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
Point taken, but everything that happens is Joss's choice (except when his
Little Helpers slips something past him without his noticing). There is
still an inconsistency in Angel's actions if we supposed he had both
motivation and ability to turn Jenny.
But the argument from inconsistency is perhaps not the strongest. It's not
as if we can say "An inconsistency in the Buffyverse? - whoa, that could
never happen". In effect it only means that someone who believes that
vampires can turn anyone at all, against their will, has a couple of extra
inconsistencies to bug them.
But it wasn't in fact that inconsistency that cause me to believe the victim
has a (constrained) choice to make. I never saw any inconsistency when
Angelus didn't turn Jenny or Giles, because I always assumed that the victim
had a choice, and hence assumed that Angelus couldn't turn them.
Looking back, I see that my assumption is based on the fact that Buffy told
me so, early in WTTH - "To make you a vampire they have to suck your blood.
And then you
have to suck their blood."
--
Apteryx
Mark Jones
> Gubhtu tbq bayl xabjf jul nalbar jbhyq guvax gurl'q jnag gb fcraq
> rgreavgl jvgu Unezbal.
Maybe her attacker was another student previously (before his own
unfortunate encounter). He always thought she was hot and worshipped her
from afar, and hopelessly. Now was his chance to change all that.
kenm47
Except they have always portrayed, when they portrayed, the victim's
return sucking of the vamp's blood as an irrisistable impulse.
Otherwise Liam and William made a choice, and therefore can be properly
condemned for that evil choice.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Don Sample
"kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Except they have always portrayed, when they portrayed, the victim's
> return sucking of the vamp's blood as an irrisistable impulse.
> Otherwise Liam and William made a choice, and therefore can be properly
> condemned for that evil choice.
>
> Ken (Brooklyn)
The only one we've really seen is Darla's siring of Angel, and given
what she was offering for him to suck on, hey, he's a guy.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
One Bit Shy
Unless something comes up to explain otherwise, I lean towards it not being
a real choice. I don't think I've heard of anyone refusing.
However, I think it's worth pointing out that Darla is unique in that she
knows by personal experience what it really means. Other humans can't
possibly understand in the way she does. So if there is any element of
choice, it would be more meaningful to her than to other humans.
OBS
KenM47
>In article <1151029891.3...@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com>,
> "kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Except they have always portrayed, when they portrayed, the victim's
>> return sucking of the vamp's blood as an irrisistable impulse.
>> Otherwise Liam and William made a choice, and therefore can be properly
>> condemned for that evil choice.
>>
>> Ken (Brooklyn)
>
>The only one we've really seen is Darla's siring of Angel, and given
>what she was offering for him to suck on, hey, he's a guy.
And Dru's of Spike. And now Dru of Darla.
Ken (Brooklyn)
KenM47
I wrestled with this one some time ago. I'm convinced that the
Buffyverse "norm" is the vic does it if given a chance. Can't stop him
or herself. I'm sure there are some like Fordham who are ready to go
for it even before the bite, but others just cannot say no.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Don Sample
KenM47 <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
We just see Dru biting Spike, and him going "Ow, ow, ow!" We don't see
his side of the big sucking thing.
And just a little while ago Darla *wanted* to be a vampire. I'm not
convinced that she put up much of a fight.
Apteryx
I think David Boreanaz's acting has greatly improved since he first appeared
in BtVS 1. But I don't think it's up to demonstrating that an impulse he's
having is irresistible. That impression can only be in the mind of a viewer.
I don't think there is any question of blaming the victim for their choice.
A choice made between death and vampirism is not consent. And in most cases
(probably including Liam) the victim would be unaware of the significance of
sucking the vampire's blood anyway. Darla clearly is aware of the
significance (and may be the first we have seen who is, not counting Ford)
and that makes her choice more interesting, and the episode the richer for
it. But it is still not free consent (as it would have been earlier with the
dumb vampire), so while it may be disappointing, I wouldn't have said it was
blameworthy.
--
Apteryx
Elisi
Here's what Angel says in the next episode:
Natry: "Fur qvqa'g jnag gb. Lbh guvax - gung lbh pna erfvfg, ohg gura
vg'f-vg'f-vg'f gbb yngr."
Apteryx
news:1151042428.9...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Lrc. Ohg gurer ner n ybg bs guvatf - cnegvphyneyl guvatf gur fcrnxre snvyrq
gb erfvfg - gung lbh pbhyq fnl gung nobhg jvgubhg vg orvat va snpg n
havirefny ehyr gung ab bar pbhyq unir pubfra qvssreragyl. Pubpbyngr pnxr
qbrfa'g ernyyl unir zntvpny cbjref bs frqhpgvba.
Naq nf V erpnyy, Natry vf fghaarq ng gung cbvag, ernpuvat sbe nafjref gb
jung ur whfg fnj unccra.
Ohg pregnvayl gur inzcver znxrf vg qvssvphyg. Cyragl bs crbcyr jbhyq or
ghearq jub jbhyqa'g unir gvpxrq "Lrf" gb n zntnmvar cbyy nfxvat "Jbhyq lbh
yvxr gb or n inzcver?"
--
Apteryx
Elisi
On a completely different subject - is it OK to post meta on this
newsgroup? I wrote a whole big thing about death wishes and if Buffy
could quit, but I've not seen anyone else post meta so I was wondering.
Thanks. :)
Daniel Damouth
news:1151051425.5...@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com:
> On a completely different subject - is it OK to post meta on this
> newsgroup? I wrote a whole big thing about death wishes and if
> Buffy could quit, but I've not seen anyone else post meta so I was
> wondering. Thanks. :)
That doesn't sound meta to me, but it does seem perfectly on topic
here. It also sounds interesting.
-Dan Damouth
Elisi
Well I'll give it a final polish and then maybe post later on today. I
followed parts of the discussion in the FFL thread, but realised that
what I had to say was far too long for a single comment... (and that's
an understatement if ever there was one!)
Thanks for the encouragement! :)
Stephen Tempest
>Unless something comes up to explain otherwise, I lean towards it not being
>a real choice. I don't think I've heard of anyone refusing.
At the risk of being spoilery, can I suggest postponing this
discussion until after the next episode of Angel has been reviewed?
I mean, Angel has just had to sit there while the love of his life was
turned into a vampire. And now he's going to have to explain what
happened to Cordy, Wes and Gunn. So it's likely the same issue will
be on *his* mind - and so who knows? It might even be raised in
dialogue during the episode 'Reunion'. For that matter, the writers
might even consider that the casual audience needs some kind of
in-show exposition of what vamping someone entails, for the benefit of
those who haven't been watching ever since 'Welcome to the Hellmouth'.
And that explanation might well touch on the issues we're discussing
here, and even give new information.
Just sayin'...
Stephen
peachy ashie passion
That all depends on how much consistency the writers require.
John Briggs
They leave plotholes all over the place :-)
--
John Briggs
peachy ashie passion
NOW you tell me.
GAwd I hate rot13!
peachy ashie passion
Yes. Hence our efforts to fill them.