AOQ Review 7-11: "Showtime"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Seven, Episode 11: "Showtime"
(or "It's getting very crowded in here!")
Writer: David Fury
Director: Michael Grossman
Before going into anything else - "Indigo?" It seems weird next
to all the normal names. [Movie!Buffy] Okay, that's not a *name*?
That's a *color*! [/MB]
After thinking about "Showtime" a little. I've realized that I
see it as something of a series of snapshot moments, attempts at iconic
images of Buffy and the state of her series. This starts from the
beginning, with the arrival of a new character (Rona) who's pretty
much guaranteed to either die or be rescued at the last minute by Buffy
from the moment the episode begins. This exists to show Buffy, veteran
world-saver, taking a new kid under her wing and welcoming her to the
Hellmouth. That's snapshot #1. The episode is like a string of
attempts at memorable images loosely strung together by a plot.
There're plenty of young would-be Slayers in da house. Is this
episode crawling with characters or what? Except that the
Proto-Slayers pretty much all merge together into one amalgamated
character. After having seen two episodes' worth of them, all I know
is that Kennedy is the less pessimistic one with the house with wings
(just a couple. A few) who seems to be hitting on Willow, and the
black kid whose name I can never remember (Rona) is the newbie of the
group who's never met a Watcher. Sometimes this works to the
show's disadvantage. For example, upon the revelation that the real
Eve is dead, the typical viewer's reaction will be less "holy shit,
Eve is the First!" and more "uh, which one was Eve again?" I was
definitely getting worried that our heroes would get lost in the
shuffle, although the last act at least makes it clear who the star is.
My advice to BTVS, despite the underdeveloped Mini-Chosen, would be
not to try to spend too much time making each one stand out. The show
is halfway through its last season; most of us don't want to spend
time meeting five (or however many there are) new characters, they want
to see stories about Buffy, Xander, Willow, and Giles. And maybe Spike
and/or Dawn, depending on the fan.
To that end, the way the Mini-Chosen (hereafter "the MC5") are used
within this story is all right. The snapshot/image is seeing them all
lounging around the exercise equipment - some train, some just
complain, but no one has any idea what they're going to do. It's
easy to get frustrated with their constant doubting, which I think is a
well-calculated effect. These confused girls are perfectly reasonable
in not feeling safe and not taking Buffy's reassurances at face
value. Especially since she's pretty much clutching at straws, and
has admitted as much out loud. As the viewers of the show, we know
that she is indeed all she's cracked up to be, and so we feel her
frustration that she can't look good and get through to them. And if
the main characters ever pettily wish that the MC5 would just shut the
hell up for five minutes and let the real Slayer do her job, well,
we're right there with them, even if we can't rationally blame the
girls for it.
When the First isn't hanging out at Casa Summers, it's continuing
to torture Spike, just because. How exactly is he so important to
Buffy's anti-First efforts, again? Just as a research subject? The
escape fantasy comes off pretty well, and since the Big Bad is back to
being Buffy after a week of Drusilla, Gellar gets to bust out that
great smug bitch delivery they let her do once in awhile. "She will
come for me." "No, I won't."
I don't really go for soiling-oneself jokes. Otherwise, Andrew's
still pretty funny, although I have to wonder if there are any actual
plans for him or anything. The part where he and Dawn are speaking
without communicating is dumb but fun, and Lenk's delivery is good on
"hey, I need that!" after Buffy takes back his weapon. Xander also
has a few good lines (on demons: "they're a 'community' now?
What's next, a Ladies' Auxiliary?") and not much else.
One of the episode's subplots concerns Giles and Anya paying a visit
to an eye monster. On the way, they have to intimidate an ex-lover
("Um, perhaps this might change your mind. You help us, and the
Slayer won't kill your clientele and burn your establishment to the
ground." Well, that's one way to do it). And there's another
strange example of Anya immediately thinking of sex as a
weapon/negotiation tool. Back in "Sleeper," it was hard to tell
what that was being played for, but the tone here seems to suggest that
her problems with identity and self-worth haven't magically vanished.
The show goes for some quieter jokes like another "is it the
hair?" routine, and has her turning again to Giles as a parental
figure.
The beginning of the encounter with Beljoxa's Eye is a pretty
standard, but still good, example of the BTVS formula. Introduce a
bizarre over-the-top entity who speaks in intonations, and then give it
a line like "what, am I talking to myself here?" And as for
introducing the new plot point regarding why exactly the First is able
to attack where it hadn't in the past... well, why not? I hear that
that's the thing about magic: there's always consequences.
(Always.) Long-term consequences are good.
The proximate showdown here is the battle with the Übervamp.
There's some meandering towards the makeshift arena for this fight.
The Slaypack's plan as far as setting it up seems a little silly and
not especially workable, but gimmicky as it is, I did enjoy the reveal
of the telepathic conversation. Then, the battle itself also seems
like not the most foolproof plan, and they're staking a lot on a
gamble. In the latter case, though, it works with the story being
told. Buffy sticks with what she knows when fighting evil, an approach
that summarizes how she deals with both single combat situations and as
an overall strategy. Namely, throw everything you can possibly think
of at it in hopes that something will work, and above all, don't give
up. It works here with the Übervamp - triumph not through
outsmarting the enemy so much as out-determined-ing it. Time will tell
whether or not it's also a winning strategy against the First.
So, like the beginning, the ending is all about the Kodak moments.
I've been saying that without qualitative judgments, but I think that
these are pretty good. Straightforward, to be sure, but sometimes
straightforward is appropriate. Buffy standing tall with her charges
looking on in awe, after taking out another "unstoppable" foe.
Buffy inspiring the troops, and appropriating "here endeth the
lesson," which was previously reserved for villains. Spike's
wide-eyed joy when he realizes that our hero really has come to rescue
him. The two of them, bloodied but triumphant, staggering off together
into the proverbial sunset. Big sweeping movie moments. That's just
the way this one works.
So...
One-sentence summary: Pretty good photo collection.
AOQ rating: Good
[Season Seven so far:
1) "Lessons" - Good
2) "Beneath You" - Decent
3) "Same Time, Same Place" - Excellent
4) "Help" - Good
5) "Selfless" - SUPERLATIVE
6) "Him" - Bad
7) "Conversations With Dead People" - Good
8) "Sleeper" - Decent
9) "Never Leave Me" - Good
10) "Bring On The Night" - Decent
11) "Showtime" - Good]
vague disclaimer
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> Then, the battle itself also seems
> like not the most foolproof plan, and they're staking a lot on a
> gamble.
This is my only real problem with the episode (which otherwise I see
more or less as you do, except I think having a bunch of newbies around
throws a potentially (arf) interesting challenge at Buffy).
The scene was shot pretty much as scripted - ie a bog standard
Buffy-fights-baddie-and-gets-beaten-up-a-bit-then-kills-baddie.
What we really needed, given both the episode title and premise, was
Buffy *working out* Chaka Kahn systematically and cooly.
--
Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
Elisi
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 11: "Showtime"
> (or "It's getting very crowded in here!")
> Writer: David Fury
> Director: Michael Grossman
>
> Before going into anything else - "Indigo?" It seems weird next
> to all the normal names. [Movie!Buffy] Okay, that's not a *name*?
> That's a *color*! [/MB]
I need to re-watch the movie.
> After thinking about "Showtime" a little. I've realized that I
> see it as something of a series of snapshot moments, attempts at iconic
> images of Buffy and the state of her series.
That's a very good description, and actually encapsulates the previous
episode too - first we go through all her downfalls, then her triumphs.
Me like.
> There're plenty of young would-be Slayers in da house. Is this
> episode crawling with characters or what? Except that the
> Proto-Slayers pretty much all merge together into one amalgamated
> character. After having seen two episodes' worth of them, all I know
> is that Kennedy is the less pessimistic one with the house with wings
> (just a couple. A few) who seems to be hitting on Willow, and the
> black kid whose name I can never remember (Rona) is the newbie of the
> group who's never met a Watcher.
I never learned their names when I first watched it. It takes a lot for
me to remember anyone, and they just blended.
> Sometimes this works to the
> show's disadvantage. For example, upon the revelation that the real
> Eve is dead, the typical viewer's reaction will be less "holy shit,
> Eve is the First!" and more "uh, which one was Eve again?"
Not sure that's a disadvantage, as such. It goes to show just how easy
it is to accept things at face value. That it's necessary to examine
everything closer, because that sweet blonde little girl that was
fading into the background might just be important... And it must be
extremely worrying for Buffy - this thing was _in her house_
influencing her charges right under her nose. How is she going to stop
that? Because the questioning doesn't go away just because TFE does.
> When the First isn't hanging out at Casa Summers, it's continuing
> to torture Spike, just because. How exactly is he so important to
> Buffy's anti-First efforts, again? Just as a research subject?
Good question. Let me ask one back: Why did it go for Angel back in
'Amends'? A lot of it is, I think, just because it can. If there's a
plan or not (and if it works) is still an open question, but part of
its reason for doing anything is quite simply that it can. Pain is what
this thing thrives on, so the more the better. As long as someone's in
pain, it's happy.
> One of the episode's subplots concerns Giles and Anya paying a visit
> to an eye monster. On the way, they have to intimidate an ex-lover
> ("Um, perhaps this might change your mind. You help us, and the
> Slayer won't kill your clientele and burn your establishment to the
> ground." Well, that's one way to do it). And there's another
> strange example of Anya immediately thinking of sex as a
> weapon/negotiation tool. Back in "Sleeper," it was hard to tell
> what that was being played for, but the tone here seems to suggest that
> her problems with identity and self-worth haven't magically vanished.
> The show goes for some quieter jokes like another "is it the
> hair?" routine, and has her turning again to Giles as a parental
> figure.
>
> The beginning of the encounter with Beljoxa's Eye is a pretty
> standard, but still good, example of the BTVS formula. Introduce a
> bizarre over-the-top entity who speaks in intonations, and then give it
> a line like "what, am I talking to myself here?" And as for
> introducing the new plot point regarding why exactly the First is able
> to attack where it hadn't in the past... well, why not? I hear that
> that's the thing about magic: there's always consequences.
> (Always.) Long-term consequences are good.
WILLOW: I brought her back!
GILES: At incredible risk!
WILLOW: Risk? Of what? Making her deader?
GILES: Of killing us all. Unleashing hell on Earth, I mean, shall I go
on?
<snip>
WILLOW: I wasn't lucky. I was amazing. And how would you know? You
weren't even there.
GILES: If I had been, I'd have bloody well stopped you. The magicks you
channeled are more ferocious and primal than anything you can hope to
understand, and you are lucky to be alive, you rank, arrogant amateur!
(Flooded)
I have a theory about the whole 'the forces around the slayer line have
become unstable', but it draws on spoilery material so I'll leave it
for now. But that resurrection sure had some consequences. And Giles is
being very nice in not going 'Ha Ha I told you so!'
> The proximate showdown here is the battle with the Übervamp.
I love the beginning of that. The bringers on the lawn. The vamp
walking towards the house between them. There's a definite medieval
feel to it.
> Then, the battle itself also seems
> like not the most foolproof plan, and they're staking a lot on a
> gamble. In the latter case, though, it works with the story being
> told. Buffy sticks with what she knows when fighting evil, an approach
> that summarizes how she deals with both single combat situations and as
> an overall strategy. Namely, throw everything you can possibly think
> of at it in hopes that something will work, and above all, don't give
> up. It works here with the Übervamp - triumph not through
> outsmarting the enemy so much as out-determined-ing it.
Excellent way of putting it.
> Time will tell
> whether or not it's also a winning strategy against the First.
Indeed.
> So, like the beginning, the ending is all about the Kodak moments.
> I've been saying that without qualitative judgments, but I think that
> these are pretty good. Straightforward, to be sure, but sometimes
> straightforward is appropriate. Buffy standing tall with her charges
> looking on in awe, after taking out another "unstoppable" foe.
> Buffy inspiring the troops, and appropriating "here endeth the
> lesson," which was previously reserved for villains.
And again we see how Buffy's fighting abilities depend upon her self
confidence.
Spike's
> wide-eyed joy when he realizes that our hero really has come to rescue
> him. The two of them, bloodied but triumphant, staggering off together
> into the proverbial sunset. Big sweeping movie moments. That's just
> the way this one works.
Oh yeah. :)
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Pretty good photo collection.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
Agreed.
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 11: "Showtime"
> (or "It's getting very crowded in here!")
> Writer: David Fury
> Director: Michael Grossman
> There're plenty of young would-be Slayers in da house. Is this
> episode crawling with characters or what? Except that the
> Proto-Slayers pretty much all merge together into one amalgamated
> character. After having seen two episodes' worth of them, all I know
> is that Kennedy is the less pessimistic one with the house with wings
> (just a couple. A few) who seems to be hitting on Willow, and the
> black kid whose name I can never remember (Rona) is the newbie of the
> group who's never met a Watcher. Sometimes this works to the
> show's disadvantage. For example, upon the revelation that the real
> Eve is dead, the typical viewer's reaction will be less "holy shit,
> Eve is the First!" and more "uh, which one was Eve again?" I was
> definitely getting worried that our heroes would get lost in the
> shuffle, although the last act at least makes it clear who the star is.
> My advice to BTVS, despite the underdeveloped Mini-Chosen, would be
> not to try to spend too much time making each one stand out. The show
> is halfway through its last season; most of us don't want to spend
> time meeting five (or however many there are) new characters, they want
> to see stories about Buffy, Xander, Willow, and Giles. And maybe Spike
> and/or Dawn, depending on the fan.
This episode hangs a lamp on the issue by having Buffy not being able to
remember their names either. Most of the potentials remain as just
background characters, but a few of them do actually develop
personalities.
> The beginning of the encounter with Beljoxa's Eye is a pretty
> standard, but still good, example of the BTVS formula. Introduce a
> bizarre over-the-top entity who speaks in intonations, and then give it
> a line like "what, am I talking to myself here?" And as for
> introducing the new plot point regarding why exactly the First is able
> to attack where it hadn't in the past... well, why not? I hear that
> that's the thing about magic: there's always consequences.
> (Always.) Long-term consequences are good.
Anya jumps to the conclusion that it was their resurrection of Buffy
that caused the imbalance, but was it? The big change in the Slayer
line happened when Xander brought Buffy back in "Prophecy Girl." That's
when the Slayer stopped being "one girl in all the world." The Chosen
One became the Chosen Two.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Malsperanza
And if they had really cast Chaka Khan, the episode would have had
something to it. Talk about grrl power.
Except for the Spike bits, this episode mostly tired me out. The first
half was modeled on the famous stateroom scene from "A Night at the
Opera": How many more giggling teenage girls can we pack into this
story line? Yes, I get that they are sposed to be irritating and
giggly, because even Potentials are normal teens, and all that hormonal
energy can translate into fiend-fightin' fists o' fury. But. Just, but.
The latter half of the episode was a(nother) shout-out to Thunderdome.
That said, the battle and its lesson were well-done, and cinametically
more exciting than the original movie.
And I did like the way Spike's Buffy Rescue fantasy got all tangled up
with First's own Buffy fantasies. And the actual rescue was pure 1940s
movieland, with Buffy in the Hero (guy) role:
Cary Grant: I love you. [...] Come on--try to sit up. Sit up. I'm going
to get you out of here.
Ingrid Bergman: Say it again; it keeps me awake.
The show certainly seems to be yanking the chain of Spuffy shippers.
~Mal
Elisi
Don Sample wrote:
> > The beginning of the encounter with Beljoxa's Eye is a pretty
> > standard, but still good, example of the BTVS formula. Introduce a
> > bizarre over-the-top entity who speaks in intonations, and then give it
> > a line like "what, am I talking to myself here?" And as for
> > introducing the new plot point regarding why exactly the First is able
> > to attack where it hadn't in the past... well, why not? I hear that
> > that's the thing about magic: there's always consequences.
> > (Always.) Long-term consequences are good.
>
> Anya jumps to the conclusion that it was their resurrection of Buffy
> that caused the imbalance, but was it? The big change in the Slayer
> line happened when Xander brought Buffy back in "Prophecy Girl."
And when the third Slayer shows up, you'll be proven right. Until then,
can we please just stick with what seems logical? Buffy died a natural
death and was revived naturally. Her death triggered Kendra, and
Kendra's death triggered Faith. When Buffy died again in The Gift the
natural order was quite simply restored.
Willow's resurrection - which messed with powerful magic - obvously did
*something* to mess up the Slayerline, something bad enough to allow
The First to rise. Did The First target all the Potentials back in
Amends f.ex? Was it interested in Buffy except in how she could be
Angel's undoing? Not really.
That's
> when the Slayer stopped being "one girl in all the world." The Chosen
> One became the Chosen Two.
And now there's 3? Where? And why isn't #3 coming to Sunnydale? Faith
is in prison, so she's excused, but if there really is a 3rd Slayer,
why hasn't she come to help Buffy? She sure could use some help!
Rincewind
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 11: "Showtime"
> (or "It's getting very crowded in here!")
> Writer: David Fury
> Director: Michael Grossman
>
> episode crawling with characters or what? Except that the
> Proto-Slayers pretty much all merge together into one amalgamated
> character. After having seen two episodes' worth of them, all I know
... and the most annoying one
> ... with the house with wings
> (just a couple. A few) who seems to be hitting on Willow, and the
> black kid whose name I can never remember (Rona) is the newbie of the
> group who's never met a Watcher. Sometimes this works to the
> show's disadvantage. For example, upon the revelation that the real
> Eve is dead, the typical viewer's reaction will be less "holy shit,
> Eve is the First!" and more "uh, which one was Eve again?"
Actually my reaction was: how the hell did the bringers manage to kill Eve
inside a LOCKED hotel room? She knew they were trying to kill her and she
invited them in for a cup of tea? And then they locked the door on their way
out?
Or maybe the door was not locked and Buffy kicked it down just because she
had been watching too many Angel episodes and she thought "If Angel can kick
down at least one door per episode I must show my fans that I can
occasionally kick a door too"?
And then Buffy runs home to confront First!Eve in the basement and my
reaction is: how did Xander materialize at her side? She entered the house
alone, she rushed down the stairs followed by Willow, Dawn and Andrew and
then suddenly Xander is there on the stairs with her.
> I don't really go for soiling-oneself jokes. Otherwise, Andrew's
> still pretty funny, although I have to wonder if there are any actual
> plans for him or anything. The part where he and Dawn are speaking
> without communicating is dumb but fun,
Oh yeah!
DAWN: Is there a language that you're speaking?
> The beginning of the encounter with Beljoxa's Eye is a pretty
> standard, but still good, example of the BTVS formula. Introduce a
> bizarre over-the-top entity who speaks in intonations, and then give it
> a line like "what, am I talking to myself here?"
Best line of the episode:
BELJOXA'S EYE: The Eye sees not the future. Only the truths of the now and
before.
ANYA: Yes, we've all got that. It's called memory!
> The proximate showdown here is the battle with the Übervamp.
> There's some meandering towards the makeshift arena for this fight.
> The Slaypack's plan as far as setting it up seems a little silly and
> not especially workable, but gimmicky as it is, I did enjoy the reveal
> of the telepathic conversation.
When did Buffy learn how to INTIATE a telepathic conversation?
We know that Willow can do it, but Buffy?
Why didn't she ever do it before?
> Then, the battle itself also seems
> like not the most foolproof plan, and they're staking a lot on a
> gamble.
And she didn't even bring any weapon.
> In the latter case, though, it works with the story being
> told. Buffy sticks with what she knows when fighting evil, an approach
> that summarizes how she deals with both single combat situations and as
> an overall strategy. Namely, throw everything you can possibly think
> of at it in hopes that something will work, and above all, don't give
> up. It works here with the Übervamp - triumph not through
> outsmarting the enemy so much as out-determined-ing it. Time will tell
> whether or not it's also a winning strategy against the First.
During this fight I remembered one of the best lines from season 6:
BUFFY: Note to self: learn to duck.
She certainly has a long way to go before she learns this very complicated
concept...
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Pretty good photo collection.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
A high Decent for me.
Noticeable Mistake of the Week:
Anya's lips moving totally out of synch with the audio in the scene where
she and Giles are trying to convince the demon to open the portal.
Actually there is a good explanation for this (and many more mistakes like
this one in later episodes): season 7 episodes where edited thinking that
they would be broadcast as fullscreen (4:3 ratio) so the editor didn't care
about whatever was visible in the extreme left and right regions because in
4:3 those parts are not visible. And then the thing was put on DVD as
widescreen so those parts became visible.
Rincewind.
--
Lines you'll never hear on Buffy:
ANY SCOOBY Gang Member: Hey guys, since we know the First can be any dead
person, why don't we all make sure everyone is corporeal everytime we meet,
before we go letting it infiltrate our group for days on end, and cause us
to all look like complete fuckwits?
hayes62
Elisi wrote:
> Don Sample wrote:
>
> > > The beginning of the encounter with Beljoxa's Eye is a pretty
> > > standard, but still good, example of the BTVS formula. Introduce a
> > > bizarre over-the-top entity who speaks in intonations, and then give it
> > > a line like "what, am I talking to myself here?" And as for
> > > introducing the new plot point regarding why exactly the First is able
> > > to attack where it hadn't in the past... well, why not? I hear that
> > > that's the thing about magic: there's always consequences.
> > > (Always.) Long-term consequences are good.
> >
> > Anya jumps to the conclusion that it was their resurrection of Buffy
> > that caused the imbalance, but was it? The big change in the Slayer
> > line happened when Xander brought Buffy back in "Prophecy Girl."
>
> And when the third Slayer shows up, you'll be proven right. Until then,
> can we please just stick with what seems logical? Buffy died a natural
> death and was revived naturally. Her death triggered Kendra, and
> Kendra's death triggered Faith. When Buffy died again in The Gift the
> natural order was quite simply restored.
>
> Willow's resurrection - which messed with powerful magic - obvously did
> *something* to mess up the Slayerline, something bad enough to allow
> The First to rise. Did The First target all the Potentials back in
> Amends f.ex? Was it interested in Buffy except in how she could be
> Angel's undoing? Not really.
>
potentials, we didn't see it up to anything in Bargaining either.
In any case does it really matter how the line was disrupted? I think
the point of the scene was more that it had happened and it couldn't be
reversed. Really it's a slightly more entertaining way of showing that
what few books and sources of information they have left can't tell
them anything useful. They're on their own.
In that sense Buffy's battle tactics resemble what she told Angelus
when he tried to make she had nothing.
ANGELUS: No weapons... No friends... No hope. Take all that away... and
what's left?
BUFFY: Me.
She goes into the arena armed with nothing more than the realisation
that she had this thing beat before once but relied too much on the
stake to do the job. So she tries something else and something else and
doesn't stop trying untill she finds a weak point.
Don Sample
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Don Sample wrote:
>
> > > The beginning of the encounter with Beljoxa's Eye is a pretty
> > > standard, but still good, example of the BTVS formula. Introduce a
> > > bizarre over-the-top entity who speaks in intonations, and then give it
> > > a line like "what, am I talking to myself here?" And as for
> > > introducing the new plot point regarding why exactly the First is able
> > > to attack where it hadn't in the past... well, why not? I hear that
> > > that's the thing about magic: there's always consequences.
> > > (Always.) Long-term consequences are good.
> >
> > Anya jumps to the conclusion that it was their resurrection of Buffy
> > that caused the imbalance, but was it? The big change in the Slayer
> > line happened when Xander brought Buffy back in "Prophecy Girl."
>
> And when the third Slayer shows up, you'll be proven right. Until then,
> can we please just stick with what seems logical? Buffy died a natural
> death and was revived naturally. Her death triggered Kendra, and
> Kendra's death triggered Faith. When Buffy died again in The Gift the
> natural order was quite simply restored.
What does the existence, or non-existence of a third Slayer have to do
with it?
> Willow's resurrection - which messed with powerful magic - obvously did
> *something* to mess up the Slayerline, something bad enough to allow
> The First to rise. Did The First target all the Potentials back in
> Amends f.ex? Was it interested in Buffy except in how she could be
> Angel's undoing? Not really.
The First wanted Angel to kill Buffy. That was its plan. Angel was the
tool, not the objective. Him deciding to kill himself was a less than
optimum outcome for it.
> > That's
> > when the Slayer stopped being "one girl in all the world." The Chosen
> > One became the Chosen Two.
>
> And now there's 3? Where? And why isn't #3 coming to Sunnydale? Faith
> is in prison, so she's excused, but if there really is a 3rd Slayer,
> why hasn't she come to help Buffy? She sure could use some help!
Who said anything about three? There used to be one. Then there were
two. *That's* when the big change happened. Whether or not there was a
third Slayer called when Buffy died again is irrelevant.
Don Sample
"Rincewind" <rincewi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
The First has a Bringer knock on the door, Eve looks out, and sees her
Watcher. She says "Oh my god! I thought you were dead!" and opens her
door. Bringers kill her.
Most hotels and motels I've been in have doors that are permanently
locked from the outside. You leave the room, and the door locks behind
you. You always need a key to open it again.
vague disclaimer
"Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The show certainly seems to be yanking the chain of Spuffy shippers.
More dangling little snacks in front of their noses.
The most brazen example - to the extent that you can practically hear
the gears of the 18-wheeler crunching as it manoeuvres to accommodate it
- is still to come.
V'z ybbxvat ng lbh Wnar Rfcrafba.
(Harmony) Watcher
"Rincewind" <rincewi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:LMBRg.2881$Xm....@tornado.fastwebnet.it...
>
> <snip>
>
> Actually my reaction was: how the hell did the bringers manage to kill Eve
> inside a LOCKED hotel room? She knew they were trying to kill her and she
> invited them in for a cup of tea? And then they locked the door on their
way
> out?
> Or maybe the door was not locked and Buffy kicked it down just because she
> had been watching too many Angel episodes and she thought "If Angel can
kick
> down at least one door per episode I must show my fans that I can
> occasionally kick a door too"?
>
> And then Buffy runs home to confront First!Eve in the basement and my
> reaction is: how did Xander materialize at her side? She entered the house
> alone, she rushed down the stairs followed by Willow, Dawn and Andrew and
> then suddenly Xander is there on the stairs with her.
>
>
<snip>
>
> When did Buffy learn how to INTIATE a telepathic conversation?
> We know that Willow can do it, but Buffy?
> Why didn't she ever do it before?
>
Yet another execution mistake, I think, that made me unhappy with Season 7
as a whole. They could have had Willow initiated it. Instead of
quote
BUFFY: (V.O.) Willow, can you hear me?
WILLOW: (V.O.) Yeah.
BUFFY: (V.O.) We're losing them. We can't let that happen. I have an idea.
Grab Xander.
WILLOW: (V.O.) Xander.
XANDER: (jumps, stares at Willow) What?
unquote
it could have been:
Willow: (V.O.) Buffy, can you hear me?
WILLOW: (V.O.) Yeah.
Willow: (V.O.) We're losing them. We can't let that happen.
BUFFY: (V.O.) I have an idea. Grab Xander.
WILLOW: (V.O.) Xander.
XANDER: (jumps, stares at Willow) What?
> >
> > Then, the battle itself also seems
> > like not the most foolproof plan, and they're staking a lot on a
> > gamble.
> >
> And she didn't even bring any weapon.
>
Yet another minor yet annoying execution mistake most typical of B-movies. I
don't think it would be spoilerish to say that I think Season 7 has too many
of these than all other seasons combined.
>
> Noticeable Mistake of the Week:
> Anya's lips moving totally out of synch with the audio in the scene where
> she and Giles are trying to convince the demon to open the portal.
> Actually there is a good explanation for this (and many more mistakes like
> this one in later episodes): season 7 episodes where edited thinking that
> they would be broadcast as fullscreen (4:3 ratio) so the editor didn't
care
> about whatever was visible in the extreme left and right regions because
in
> 4:3 those parts are not visible. And then the thing was put on DVD as
> widescreen so those parts became visible.
>
Thanks for the explanation.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
ravimotha
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 11: "Showtime"
> (or "It's getting very crowded in here!")
> Writer: David Fury
> Director: Michael Grossman
>
I think there is only one thing missed in your summary.
In the first couple of episodes of this series we seemed to have a lot
of disparate threads. This was the first episode for me where I could
see a step up was being made in terms of the overall arc. Threads and
issues are being resolved and played out.
The battle lines are being drawn most of the pieces are in place or in
play (but not all), and this is the opening act.
The beginning of the end, if you will
regards
Ravi
Don Sample
"\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
> "Rincewind" <rincewi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:LMBRg.2881$Xm....@tornado.fastwebnet.it...
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > Actually my reaction was: how the hell did the bringers manage to kill Eve
> > inside a LOCKED hotel room? She knew they were trying to kill her and she
> > invited them in for a cup of tea? And then they locked the door on their
> way
> > out?
> > Or maybe the door was not locked and Buffy kicked it down just because she
> > had been watching too many Angel episodes and she thought "If Angel can
> kick
> > down at least one door per episode I must show my fans that I can
> > occasionally kick a door too"?
> >
> > And then Buffy runs home to confront First!Eve in the basement and my
> > reaction is: how did Xander materialize at her side? She entered the house
> > alone, she rushed down the stairs followed by Willow, Dawn and Andrew and
> > then suddenly Xander is there on the stairs with her.
> >
> >
> Writer's mistake or director's mistake? Anyone?
I don't really see it as a mistake. Buffy runs into the house while
he's parking the car. He comes in later, and rejoins everyone in the
basement.
> > Noticeable Mistake of the Week:
> > Anya's lips moving totally out of synch with the audio in the scene
> > where she and Giles are trying to convince the demon to open the
> > portal. Actually there is a good explanation for this (and many
> > more mistakes like this one in later episodes): season 7 episodes
> > where edited thinking that they would be broadcast as fullscreen
> > (4:3 ratio) so the editor didn't care about whatever was visible in
> > the extreme left and right regions because in 4:3 those parts are
> > not visible. And then the thing was put on DVD as widescreen so
> > those parts became visible.
> >
> Thanks for the explanation.
Only the R2 and R4 releases were in widescreen. Most North Americans
only saw the 4:3 version. (Even the OMWF was letterboxed in the R1
discs, rather than being done in anamorphic widescreen.)
Malsperanza
(Harmony) Watcher wrote:
> Yet another minor yet annoying execution mistake most typical of B-movies. I
> don't think it would be spoilerish to say that I think Season 7 has too many
> of these than all other seasons combined.
If these 2 episodes were riveting and deeply felt in other respects, I
probably wouldn't notice the glitches--or care very much. In theory I
quite like the idea that Buffy, Willow, and Xander do their planning by
telepathy--or, rather, I liked the reveal of it. But because it came
out of left field, without having been developed in the past in any but
the most cursory way, it felt like a gigantic writerly cheat. Next
week, let's have Buffy solve an insuperable problem by remembering that
Slayers can shoot lightning bolts out of their fingertips.
I could swallow Buffy going into the arena against the Ubervamp without
weapons on the grounds that she is trying to teach the Potentials just
what they potentially are, in and of themselves--and that means their
own strength and guile, not their mad skilz with crossbows or whatnot.
I started noticing these little flubs and flaws because I had trouble
getting deeply engaged with the Slayerettes. As AOQ says, I couldn't
remember which was which, and started thinking of them as Whiny,
Sleepy, Horny, Wimpy, and Bad Haircut.
When I was watching Buffy, Spike, Xander, Willow, Andrew, and the
First, everything was fine. These are folks I know and have made an
investment in.
~Mal
Mike Zeares
Rincewind wrote:
>
> Noticeable Mistake of the Week:
> Anya's lips moving totally out of synch with the audio in the scene where
> she and Giles are trying to convince the demon to open the portal.
> Actually there is a good explanation for this (and many more mistakes like
> this one in later episodes): season 7 episodes where edited thinking that
> they would be broadcast as fullscreen (4:3 ratio) so the editor didn't care
> about whatever was visible in the extreme left and right regions because in
> 4:3 those parts are not visible. And then the thing was put on DVD as
> widescreen so those parts became visible.
Just FYI, the R1 DVD's are in 4:3, so nobody with that set knows what
you're talking about. ;-)
Joss never intended BtVS to be in widescreen. IIRC, he was a bit
annoyed that the R2 dvds were. There was a note in one of the R1 sets,
might have been S7, explaining why it wasn't in widescreen. This is in
contrast to Angel and Firefly, which he did see as more cinematic.
Anyway, there are all sorts of fun goofs on the R2 sets.
-- Mike Zeares
jil...@hotmail.com
Don Sample wrote:
> The First wanted Angel to kill Buffy. That was its plan. Angel was the
> tool, not the objective. Him deciding to kill himself was a less than
> optimum outcome for it.
Damned straight! And the difference between now and then? Well, it
seems so far that killing BUFFY is under category "Not to be done yet."
(Harmony) Watcher
news:1159142616.2...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> <snip>
>
> I started noticing these little flubs and flaws because I had trouble
> getting deeply engaged with the Slayerettes. As AOQ says, I couldn't
> remember which was which, and started thinking of them as Whiny,
> Sleepy, Horny, Wimpy, and Bad Haircut.
>
Slayerettes, I think only Kennedy was guilty of all your charges. :)
--
==Harmony Watcher==
vague disclaimer
"\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
> quote
> BUFFY: (V.O.) Willow, can you hear me?
> WILLOW: (V.O.) Yeah.
> BUFFY: (V.O.) We're losing them. We can't let that happen. I have an idea.
> Grab Xander.
> WILLOW: (V.O.) Xander.
> XANDER: (jumps, stares at Willow) What?
> unquote
>
> it could have been:
>
> Willow: (V.O.) Buffy, can you hear me?
> WILLOW: (V.O.) Yeah.
> Willow: (V.O.) We're losing them. We can't let that happen.
> BUFFY: (V.O.) I have an idea. Grab Xander.
> WILLOW: (V.O.) Xander.
> XANDER: (jumps, stares at Willow) What?
Which wouldn't have in anyway undermined that part where Buffy is the
one trying to control the situation.
Oh no.
Mel
(Harmony) Watcher wrote:
> "Rincewind" <rincewi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:LMBRg.2881$Xm....@tornado.fastwebnet.it...
>
>><snip>
>>
>>Actually my reaction was: how the hell did the bringers manage to kill Eve
>>inside a LOCKED hotel room? She knew they were trying to kill her and she
>>invited them in for a cup of tea? And then they locked the door on their
>
> way
>
>>out?
>>Or maybe the door was not locked and Buffy kicked it down just because she
>>had been watching too many Angel episodes and she thought "If Angel can
>
> kick
>
>>down at least one door per episode I must show my fans that I can
>>occasionally kick a door too"?
>>
>>And then Buffy runs home to confront First!Eve in the basement and my
>>reaction is: how did Xander materialize at her side? She entered the house
>>alone, she rushed down the stairs followed by Willow, Dawn and Andrew and
>>then suddenly Xander is there on the stairs with her.
>>
>>
>
> Writer's mistake or director's mistake? Anyone?
>
> <snip>
>
>>When did Buffy learn how to INTIATE a telepathic conversation?
>>We know that Willow can do it, but Buffy?
>>Why didn't she ever do it before?
They could have a leftover telepathic connection from Weight of the
World. But why would she have needed to do it before? Until now, there
haven't been people in the room she doesn't want to overhear what she's
saying to Willow.
Mel
vague disclaimer
"Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Yet another minor yet annoying execution mistake most typical of B-movies. I
> > don't think it would be spoilerish to say that I think Season 7 has too many
> > of these than all other seasons combined.
>
> If these 2 episodes were riveting and deeply felt in other respects, I
> probably wouldn't notice the glitches--or care very much. In theory I
> quite like the idea that Buffy, Willow, and Xander do their planning by
> telepathy--or, rather, I liked the reveal of it. But because it came
> out of left field, without having been developed in the past in any but
> the most cursory way, it felt like a gigantic writerly cheat. Next
> week, let's have Buffy solve an insuperable problem by remembering that
> Slayers can shoot lightning bolts out of their fingertips.
Not even remotely comparable. Telepathy has been shown to exist in the
Buffyverse and this was just a new wrinkle. If Willow can broadcast why
can't she listen? In fact we know she can:
WILLOW: (telepathically) Xander-
XANDER: I know, I know, I don't have to talk when I answer you. But I
saw "The Fury," and that way lies spooky carnival death.
Who knows what skills Buffy might have to deploy as she moves from
leading a bunch of friends to leading an army of strangers.
She might *discover* that she can shoot lightning blots, but that is not
the same as knowing that telepathy is functional and Willow can use it
and hear it.
Now the altogether more interesting implication is that Willow can
earwig people's private thoughts....
>When I was watching Buffy, Spike, Xander, Willow, Andrew...These are >
folks I know and have made an investment in.
So how long did you have to invest in Andrew?
Every character was new once.
Stephen Tempest
>Season Seven, Episode 11: "Showtime"
>(or "It's getting very crowded in here!")
So, you understood the episode? Did you comprehend it as well?
> Sometimes this works to the
>show's disadvantage. For example, upon the revelation that the real
>Eve is dead, the typical viewer's reaction will be less "holy shit,
>Eve is the First!" and more "uh, which one was Eve again?"
Eve was the one telling everyone that it was all hopeless, Buffy
didn't know what she was doing, and they were all going to die. Pretty
obvious in hindsight <g>
The First had infiltrated the heart of Slayer HQ, was listening to all
their plans and doing a pretty good job of demoralising everyone, and
they didn't even realise. That's a much more powerful image than just
'one of the new characters is dead, oh noes!'
> My advice to BTVS, despite the underdeveloped Mini-Chosen, would be
>not to try to spend too much time making each one stand out. The show
>is halfway through its last season; most of us don't want to spend
>time meeting five (or however many there are) new characters, they want
>to see stories about Buffy, Xander, Willow, and Giles. And maybe Spike
>and/or Dawn, depending on the fan.
Remember my quote from your last review about Kennedy seeming to be
the only one with a real personality? (And one I actually find very
entertaining, although she does manage to spark some quite excessive
dislike in many fans, for some reason...)
Some of the others develop into at least recognisable types: Rona is
chippy and sarcastic; Vi has been described, on umtbvs, as 'Willow
Lite', and developed quite a mini-fan club among certain viewers...
but for the most part, yeah, they're a faceless mass.
>To that end, the way the Mini-Chosen (hereafter "the MC5") are used
>within this story is all right.
You're assuming that there are only going to be five of them? That the
show's not going to introduce two or three more every episode, until
by the season finale they're stacked two deep in every room in Buffy's
house? <g>
>When the First isn't hanging out at Casa Summers, it's continuing
>to torture Spike, just because. How exactly is he so important to
>Buffy's anti-First efforts, again?
We've already had the answer to that, though, two episodes ago:
BUFFY/THE FIRST: I have to admit, I'm glad it worked out this way. I
was going to bleed Andrew, but (sighs) you look a lot better with your
shirt off.
Yes, it's true. The First and Marti Noxon are one and the same!
This explains so much...
>Big sweeping movie moments. That's just
>the way this one works.
No TWRSBILA moments this time?
That's English for "hungry."
Oh. Here I thought "hungry" was English for "hungry."
It's OK, we're friendly... and we have eyes...
Like this'll do any good. I mean, what's the point?
It's this end, right here. Stick that in the bad guys. Any more
questions?
Facing my fear... I'm facing my fear... Hear that, fear? I'm facing
you...
On a different note, nice to see Buffy's pop-culture mojo is working
again (her 'Misery' reference to Andrew).
>AOQ rating: Good
Average for me. (That's average for a Buffy episode, of course, not
average for TV shows in general...)
Stephen
Stephen Tempest
>When did Buffy learn how to INTIATE a telepathic conversation?
>We know that Willow can do it, but Buffy?
>Why didn't she ever do it before?
She still can't. Willow's the one who's telepathic. From 'Two To Go':
"We don't have to talk. Just think real loud - I can hear you."
In this scene, Buffy was "thinking real loud"... and Willow heard her.
Stephen
Don Sample
"Mike Zeares" <mze...@yahoo.com> wrote:
What I'd like someone to do sometime is go through the S4-S7 shows, and
do a proper 16:9 crop, fixing the few scenes where cameras and things
are visible around the edges, or where everyone is crowded together into
the middle of the frame.
Most of it *does* look better in 16:9. Over the last 4 seasons there
are a dozen or so really glaring "errors" in the widescreen versions,
and another couple of dozen scenes where the framing is less than ideal.
All of those scenes could be improved by some intelligent 16:9 cropping.
Apteryx
news:1159121839.1...@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Seven, Episode 11: "Showtime"
>(or "It's getting very crowded in here!")
>Writer: David Fury
>Director: Michael Grossman
>Before going into anything else - "Indigo?" It seems weird next
>to all the normal names. [Movie!Buffy] Okay, that's not a *name*?
>That's a *color*! [/MB]
It's only weird compared to the other potentials' names. Maybe its a clue
she'll be the next Slayer :)
>After thinking about "Showtime" a little. I've realized that I
>see it as something of a series of snapshot moments, attempts at iconic
>images of Buffy and the state of her series. This starts from the
>beginning, with the arrival of a new character (Rona) who's pretty
>much guaranteed to either die or be rescued at the last minute by Buffy
>from the moment the episode begins. This exists to show Buffy, veteran
>world-saver, taking a new kid under her wing and welcoming her to the
>Hellmouth. That's snapshot #1.
Ah, s-n-a-p-s-h-o-t - is that the new American word for "cliche" now you're
supposed to be getting rid of anything French, a la "freedom fries"?
>show's disadvantage. For example, upon the revelation that the real
>Eve is dead, the typical viewer's reaction will be less "holy shit,
>Eve is the First!" and more "uh, which one was Eve again?" I was
>definitely getting worried that our heroes would get lost in the
>shuffle, although the last act at least makes it clear who the star is.
Definitely something to worry about.
>My advice to BTVS, despite the underdeveloped Mini-Chosen, would be
>not to try to spend too much time making each one stand out. The show
>is halfway through its last season; most of us don't want to spend
>time meeting five (or however many there are) new characters, they want
>to see stories about Buffy, Xander, Willow, and Giles. And maybe Spike
>and/or Dawn, depending on the fan.
My advice to BtVS would have been not to introduce them as characters at
all, but keep them as extras, for that very reason. Or better yet, do a
better story that didn't involve the invasion of the potential horde. But,
too late.
>When the First isn't hanging out at Casa Summers, it's continuing
>to torture Spike, just because.
Only when its not, or even when it is? I don't know if the group ever
reached a consensus (ha!) on whether the First could be in two places at
once. It certainly seemed to be during CWDP, at least if the various stories
there were contemporaneous. And as to the torturing Spike business,
kidnapping and torturing the protaganist's special friend is just what super
villains do in bad movies.
>How exactly is he so important to
>Buffy's anti-First efforts, again? Just as a research subject? The
>escape fantasy comes off pretty well, and since the Big Bad is back to
>being Buffy after a week of Drusilla, Gellar gets to bust out that
>great smug bitch delivery they let her do once in awhile. "She will
>come for me." "No, I won't."
That was a good moment
>I don't really go for soiling-oneself jokes. Otherwise, Andrew's
>still pretty funny, although I have to wonder if there are any actual
>plans for him or anything. The part where he and Dawn are speaking
>without communicating is dumb but fun,
I like the look on Dawn's face when she realises that even the threat of
death can't shut Andrew up
>One of the episode's subplots concerns Giles and Anya paying a visit
>to an eye monster. On the way, they have to intimidate an ex-lover
>("Um, perhaps this might change your mind. You help us, and the
>Slayer won't kill your clientele and burn your establishment to the
>ground." Well, that's one way to do it). And there's another
>strange example of Anya immediately thinking of sex as a
>weapon/negotiation tool. Back in "Sleeper," it was hard to tell
>what that was being played for, but the tone here seems to suggest that
>her problems with identity and self-worth haven't magically vanished.
At least she has Giles there with the more effective bargaining technique.
One of the better scenes in the episode.
>The beginning of the encounter with Beljoxa's Eye is a pretty
>standard, but still good, example of the BTVS formula. Introduce a
>bizarre over-the-top entity who speaks in intonations, and then give it
>a line like "what, am I talking to myself here?" And as for
>introducing the new plot point regarding why exactly the First is able
>to attack where it hadn't in the past... well, why not? I hear that
>that's the thing about magic: there's always consequences.
>(Always.) Long-term consequences are good.
I don't think there is much that is "exact" about why the First is able to
attack now - you'll see from this thread that there isn't even agreement on
which of Buffy's comebacks from the dead caused the instability, let alone
the mechanism. But the writers a probably wise to avoid too much detail.
Without a solid foundation having been laid way back, it would require too
much exposition at this stage. Better to leave it to the fanwankers to work
out the details. The writers are smarter than most of these two episodes
make them look.
Assuming it is the Bargaining resurection that caused the instability, its
good that there are consequences, nygubhtu vg qbrf haqrezvar gur srry tbbq
snpgbe bs Jvyybj'f fcryy va gur frevrf svanyr, fvapr cerfhznoyl gurer jvyy
or pbafrdhraprf sebz gung nf jryy.
>of the telepathic conversation. Then, the battle itself also seems
>like not the most foolproof plan, and they're staking a lot on a
>gamble.
Just a little. The show sets up an apparently unbeatable villain who has
easily beaten Buffy twice before, but Buffy decides to kill it in front of
the people its trying to kill for, you know, morale. Sounds like a plan.
>lesson," which was previously reserved for villains. Spike's
>wide-eyed joy when he realizes that our hero really has come to rescue
>him.
Another good moment
>So...
>One-sentence summary: Pretty good photo collection.
>AOQ rating: Good
I agree that this has some good moments. In that respect (but only that) it
resembles episodes like Beer Bad, where you have to look past the fact that
the story is crap, and just add up all the good moments that it provides.
There's Spike and First Buffy, Dawn and Andrew, the reveal of the First
living amongst them, Giles and Anya and her ex, and the final Spike and
Buffy. But for me, this starts from a much lower place than Beer Bad, and
remembering it for the good moments only manages to lift it from a rating
where I would be looking into DVD technology to work out just were on the
disk I should make the scratch to remove just this episode and leave the
rest, to a rating that just manages to crawl into Weak territory. For me,the
season is in a spin, and inside the cockpit can be heard the sounds of the
alarm "Whoop Whoop, Pull Up, Pull Up". Eleven epsidodes to go for the crew
to save it. If this episode had been the first I had seen of BtVS, there is
no way I would have given the series another thought, no matter how many
people told me how much they enjoyed the series. It's my 139th favourite
BtVS epsidode, 18th best in season 7
--
Apteryx
William George Ferguson
wrote:
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>
>
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Seven, Episode 11: "Showtime"
>(or "It's getting very crowded in here!")
>Writer: David Fury
>Director: Michael Grossman
>
>Before going into anything else - "Indigo?" It seems weird next
>to all the normal names. [Movie!Buffy] Okay, that's not a *name*?
>That's a *color*! [/MB]
Until she was about 18 or so, she appeared under her birth name, Alyssa A.
(Ashley) Nichols. She was credited as Indigo on Boston Public, Buffy and
10-8. I believe she is now having her credits read Indigo Nichols.
>After thinking about "Showtime" a little. I've realized that I
>see it as something of a series of snapshot moments, attempts at iconic
>images of Buffy and the state of her series.
>There're plenty of young would-be Slayers in da house. Is this
>episode crawling with characters or what? Except that the
>Proto-Slayers pretty much all merge together into one amalgamated
>character. After having seen two episodes' worth of them, all I know
>is that Kennedy is the less pessimistic one with the house with wings
>(just a couple. A few) who seems to be hitting on Willow, and the
>black kid whose name I can never remember (Rona) is the newbie of the
>group who's never met a Watcher. Sometimes this works to the
>show's disadvantage. For example, upon the revelation that the real
>Eve is dead, the typical viewer's reaction will be less "holy shit,
>Eve is the First!" and more "uh, which one was Eve again?" I was
>definitely getting worried that our heroes would get lost in the
>shuffle, although the last act at least makes it clear who the star is.
> My advice to BTVS, despite the underdeveloped Mini-Chosen, would be
>not to try to spend too much time making each one stand out. The show
>is halfway through its last season; most of us don't want to spend
>time meeting five (or however many there are) new characters, they want
>to see stories about Buffy, Xander, Willow, and Giles. And maybe Spike
>and/or Dawn, depending on the fan.
Well, they're obviously pushing Kennedy as a recognizable personality more
than the others in this ep ('seems to be hitting on Willow'? Is that like
water seems to be wet?)
At this point other than Kennedy (the character who made Riley-hate look
like minor annoyance), the only Potential that I locked on was Vi, the
Nervous Don Knotts of the Potentials, with her knitted caps. She was the
one who seemed to understand the true implications of Buffy's fight with
Ubie.
"she still looked like a big bruise when I got here, and that was already
like the day after." (Vi understands the Slayer healing factor)
>To that end, the way the Mini-Chosen (hereafter "the MC5")
Since MCT5 is already used, I think "Buffy and the Potentials" makes a
petter musical group name.
>When the First isn't hanging out at Casa Summers, it's continuing
>to torture Spike, just because. How exactly is he so important to
>Buffy's anti-First efforts, again? Just as a research subject? The
>escape fantasy comes off pretty well, and since the Big Bad is back to
>being Buffy after a week of Drusilla, Gellar gets to bust out that
>great smug bitch delivery they let her do once in awhile. "She will
>come for me." "No, I won't."
since I didn't post a comment to the BOtN, I'll throw in a favorite Dru
STF (Slash The First) moment from it here,
Spike: "You're not Dru."
Dru STF: "No, I'm really not."
Spike: "Dru was crazier."
>One of the episode's subplots concerns Giles and Anya paying a visit
>to an eye monster. On the way, they have to intimidate an ex-lover
>("Um, perhaps this might change your mind. You help us, and the
>Slayer won't kill your clientele and burn your establishment to the
>ground." Well, that's one way to do it). And there's another
>strange example of Anya immediately thinking of sex as a
>weapon/negotiation tool. Back in "Sleeper," it was hard to tell
>what that was being played for, but the tone here seems to suggest that
>her problems with identity and self-worth haven't magically vanished.
> The show goes for some quieter jokes like another "is it the
>hair?" routine, and has her turning again to Giles as a parental
>figure.
Another thing to consider is that Anya apparently has a very strong sex
drive, and has pretty much been celibate since breaking up with Xander. I
went Occam's Razor and figured "Anya's horny".
>
>The beginning of the encounter with Beljoxa's Eye is a pretty
>standard, but still good, example of the BTVS formula. Introduce a
>bizarre over-the-top entity who speaks in intonations, and then give it
>a line like "what, am I talking to myself here?" And as for
>introducing the new plot point regarding why exactly the First is able
>to attack where it hadn't in the past... well, why not? I hear that
>that's the thing about magic: there's always consequences.
>(Always.) Long-term consequences are good.
Lot's of argument about, at least, Giles and Anya's interpretation of BE's
message. Me, I figure it's straight-forward enough, and agree with Don
that it probably was Buffy's first resurrection which created the
vulnerability, not the second. This is probably also a good place for me
to do my 'what we know' about TF.
Everyone who knows about it is pretty much in agreement that TF is, very
literally, older than dirt. I interpret that to be that TF is what in the
Marvel Universe is called a Conceptual Entity (that is, a physical
embodiment of a concept), like Death, Oblivion, Infinity, Eternity, Order,
Chaos and others. TF is the concept of 'evil' given sentient existence (I
was going to say 'given form', but that doesn't work for FE)
FE has no physical existence. To manifest, even in dreams, it needs it's
worshipers (the Harbingers or Bringers) to gather and do rituals), the
more Bringers in a given area, the more corporeal power TF has there (this
was established in Amends).
FE can't be 'defeated' in direct physical combat, because it's intangible
and immortal. The only way to defeat it is to remove (at least
temporarily) its ability to manifest. That's what Buffy did in Amends, by
slicing and dicing the Bringers.
Now some interpolations
FE, by itself, probably makes posts look like Einstein. It's immortal and
invulnerable, it doesn't have any particular reason to have developed
intelligence, in and of itself.
FE takes on the personality and other traits of the dead people it
manifests as. We've seen it repeatedly talk and act in pretty much the
exact manner of the current STF, even when that level of mimicry is
completely lost on its audience (see Spike and The Mayor). I further
extrapolate that how it reasons and how well is also influenced by its
current STF, and the more it uses an STF
Based mostly on what we were told in Amends, I've run a timeline with
causation on TF's activities.
Buffy dies and gets better in Prophecy Girl
TF starts gathering force to manifest by gathering Bringers. It takes
time, a year and a half, to get enough Bringers in place working rituals
to do serious dream manipulation in Amends, and some manifestation, mostly
as Jenny STF. Since it's mostly manifesting as Jenny STF here, it's
mannerisms, and choices of attack are influenced by that.
After Buffy whacks its Bringers, it take more years to rebuild, and to
build its strength far past the point where Buffy (or anyone else) can
quickly disperse it by committing mass Bringercide.
Now it's carrying out another plan, but its personality and reasoning are
going to be influenced by the STFs that it manifests as. Thus far in the
season, it has used several different STFs, but Spike and Buffy
predominate.
>The proximate showdown here is the battle with the Übervamp.
>There's some meandering towards the makeshift arena for this fight.
>The Slaypack's plan as far as setting it up seems a little silly and
>not especially workable, but gimmicky as it is, I did enjoy the reveal
>of the telepathic conversation. Then, the battle itself also seems
>like not the most foolproof plan, and they're staking a lot on a
>gamble. In the latter case, though, it works with the story being
>told. Buffy sticks with what she knows when fighting evil, an approach
>that summarizes how she deals with both single combat situations and as
>an overall strategy. Namely, throw everything you can possibly think
>of at it in hopes that something will work, and above all, don't give
>up. It works here with the Übervamp - triumph not through
>outsmarting the enemy so much as out-determined-ing it. Time will tell
>whether or not it's also a winning strategy against the First.
Also entering into the equation, Buffy has fought Ubie twice now (with
this the third time), we've seen over and over, from the very beginning
(Luke) that the more times Buffy fights an opponent, the better she gets
at fighting that opponent, she has a very fast learning curve when it
comes to fighting.
>So...
>
>One-sentence summary: Pretty good photo collection.
>
>AOQ rating: Good
Well, if you don't like B&TP, or if you prefer, the MC5, taking up too
much of the show, you've gotta be really worried about the title of the
next ep :)
--
... and my sister is a vampire slayer, her best friend is a witch who
went bonkers and tried to destroy the world, um, I actually used to be
a little ball of energy until about two years ago when some monks
changed the past and made me Buffy's sister and for some reason, a big
klepto. My best friends are Leticia Jones, who moved to San Diego
because this town is evil, and a floppy eared demon named Clem.
(Dawn's fantasy of her intro speech in "Lessons", from the shooting script)
Don Sample
wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1159121839.1...@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
> >A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> >threads.
>
>
> >BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> >Season Seven, Episode 11: "Showtime"
> >(or "It's getting very crowded in here!")
> >Writer: David Fury
> >Director: Michael Grossman
>
> >Before going into anything else - "Indigo?" It seems weird next
> >to all the normal names. [Movie!Buffy] Okay, that's not a *name*?
> >That's a *color*! [/MB]
>
> It's only weird compared to the other potentials' names. Maybe its a clue
> she'll be the next Slayer :)
"Indigo" is the actress's name, not the character's.
Malsperanza
vague disclaimer wrote:
> In article <1159142616.2...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> "Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > Yet another minor yet annoying execution mistake most typical of B-movies. I
> > > don't think it would be spoilerish to say that I think Season 7 has too many
> > > of these than all other seasons combined.
> >
> > If these 2 episodes were riveting and deeply felt in other respects, I
> > probably wouldn't notice the glitches--or care very much. In theory I
> > quite like the idea that Buffy, Willow, and Xander do their planning by
> > telepathy--or, rather, I liked the reveal of it. But because it came
> > out of left field, without having been developed in the past in any but
> > the most cursory way, it felt like a gigantic writerly cheat. Next
> > week, let's have Buffy solve an insuperable problem by remembering that
> > Slayers can shoot lightning bolts out of their fingertips.
>
> Not even remotely comparable. Telepathy has been shown to exist in the
> Buffyverse and this was just a new wrinkle. If Willow can broadcast why
> can't she listen? In fact we know she can:
Yes, I know. But after the telepathy introduced once or twice way back
when, it is simply ignored for so long, and not used so many times when
it would have been useful, that this still feels to me like a cheat.
YMMV, of course.
> Now the altogether more interesting implication is that Willow can
> earwig people's private thoughts....
...Leading one to wonder why this wasn't a prominent aspect of Willow's
story for the past couple of years. It's one of those ideas that should
either be pursued and explored, or not introduced.
> >When I was watching Buffy, Spike, Xander, Willow, Andrew...These are >
> folks I know and have made an investment in.
>
> So how long did you have to invest in Andrew?
We had known him since mid-s6, more or less, right? By s7 I was more
interested in him than in either Warren or Jonathan (aside from
Superstar!Jonathan, who was priceless), because he struck me as less
cartoonish than either of them, and I enjoyed the actor's low-key
style. I liked that Andrew seemed driven less by rage (Warren) or
short-guy resentment (Jonathan) than by an utter lack of any sense of
what to do with his life. That seemed very true to me, and very
individual. I thought the ways in which he could be compared to Willow
were interesting. But from the beginning Andrew had that peculiar
mixture of pathos, horror, and camp comedy that marks some of BtVS's
best creations (including, for me, early Spike).
> Every character was new once.
Yes. Perhaps the difficulty comes from introducing so many similar ones
at once, and then mostly showing them in group scenes, discussing the
same problem, and with only a few lines each. So they get distinguished
from one another by convenient attributes, rather than by our
experience of them as people. There's the one with the hat and the one
who's black and the rich one who apparently has the hots for Willow,
and so on. Perhaps as s7 continues they will have a chance to acquire
some of that richness of character.
But as always, these are matters of personal taste.
~Mal
Rowan Hawthorn
> In article <1159142616.2...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> "Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>> Yet another minor yet annoying execution mistake most typical of B-movies. I
>>> don't think it would be spoilerish to say that I think Season 7 has too many
>>> of these than all other seasons combined.
>> If these 2 episodes were riveting and deeply felt in other respects, I
>> probably wouldn't notice the glitches--or care very much. In theory I
>> quite like the idea that Buffy, Willow, and Xander do their planning by
>> telepathy--or, rather, I liked the reveal of it. But because it came
>> out of left field, without having been developed in the past in any but
>> the most cursory way, it felt like a gigantic writerly cheat. Next
>> week, let's have Buffy solve an insuperable problem by remembering that
>> Slayers can shoot lightning bolts out of their fingertips.
>
> Not even remotely comparable. Telepathy has been shown to exist in the
> Buffyverse and this was just a new wrinkle. If Willow can broadcast why
> can't she listen? In fact we know she can:
>
> WILLOW: (telepathically) Xander-
>
> XANDER: I know, I know, I don't have to talk when I answer you. But I
> saw "The Fury," and that way lies spooky carnival death.
There's an even more explicit one, from "Two To Go:"
DAWN: Willow, please. Just listen to me...
WILLOW: You don’t have to talk. Just think real loud. I can hear you.
Like Buffy in "Earshot," it seems Willow's receiver is "on" all the
time. No wonder she's looking tired...
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Malsperanza
(Harmony) Watcher wrote:
> "Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1159142616.2...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > I started noticing these little flubs and flaws because I had trouble
> > getting deeply engaged with the Slayerettes.
> Hey, don't blame Xander's amorous urges on the Slayerettes! :)
Bada-boom.
> Of all the
> Slayerettes, I think only Kennedy was guilty of all your charges. :)
Aww, poor Kennedy. I didn't think she was so bad. At least I could
remember which one she was--mostly because I kept wondering what was up
with her name, and whether it meant that the whole series was really an
allegory of America in the Camelot years.
On the subject of names, though, I did think it was interesting
(mildly) that the Potential who killed herself (or got suicided by the
First) was named Eve: the Judeo-Christian First Woman. Dunno what to
make of that, but it didn't seem accidental, just as Cassie's name
wasn't accidental.
If any new Potentials turn up named Iphigenia, Andromeda, or Vashti,
they're probably toast.
~Mal
(Harmony) Watcher
"Stephen Tempest" <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:gd9eh2ln96eaksvm1...@4ax.com...
telepathic channel, once open, stays open until Willow decides to disconnect
it. Perhaps Willow has left her private channel to Buffy open all the time.
Or perhaps Willow opened the channel slightly earlier (not shown on screen)
complaining to Buffy about the Slayerettes' excessive yapping giving her a
headache ?
--
==Harmony Watcher==
Rowan Hawthorn
> (Harmony) Watcher wrote:
>> "Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1159142616.2...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>> I started noticing these little flubs and flaws because I had trouble
>>> getting deeply engaged with the Slayerettes.
>
>
>> Hey, don't blame Xander's amorous urges on the Slayerettes! :)
>
> Bada-boom.
>
>> Of all the
>> Slayerettes, I think only Kennedy was guilty of all your charges. :)
>
> Aww, poor Kennedy. I didn't think she was so bad.
I rather liked her, after my first knee-jerk indignation at her attitude
(which, on reflection, reminded me a lot of Buffy, Faith, *and* Kendra,
actually...)
Ian Galbraith
This is actually why I don't think the group of 4 episodes ending in this
one are particularly good, they're too plot driven and not particularly
resonant emotionally or thematically. And the plot doesn't bear up to
close scrutiny. I'd rank all 4 of them as Decent although Sleeper might
be a low Good.
--
You can't stop the signal
Ian Galbraith
> Vi has been described, on umtbvs, as 'Willow
> Lite', and developed quite a mini-fan club among certain viewers...
Vi rules :-).
Erfcbafvoyr sbe bar bs zl snibevgr zbzragf va F7 jura fur nggnpxf gur
horeinzcf va Pubfra nsgre trggvat gur fynlre cbjre.
[snip]
(Harmony) Watcher
"Ian Galbraith" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:1r3l41ckcphyk$.aywxvde7icwm.dlg@40tude.net...
onggyr ng gur raq bs gur Frevrf Svanyr.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
Don Sample
"\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
Zbfg bs gur Cbgragvnyf fheivirq gur svany rapbhagre. Gur bayl anzrq
Cbgragvny gb qvr va gur svany onggyr jnf Nznaqn.
Daniel Damouth
news:dsample-005BD5...@news.giganews.com:
> In article <ef79n7$l3k$1...@emma.aioe.org>, "Apteryx"
> <apt...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1159121839.1...@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>> >A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
>> >review threads.
>>
>>
>> >BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> >Season Seven, Episode 11: "Showtime"
>> >(or "It's getting very crowded in here!")
>> >Writer: David Fury
>> >Director: Michael Grossman
>>
>> >Before going into anything else - "Indigo?" It seems weird next
>> >to all the normal names. [Movie!Buffy] Okay, that's not a
>> >*name*? That's a *color*! [/MB]
>>
>> It's only weird compared to the other potentials' names. Maybe
>> its a clue she'll be the next Slayer :)
>
> "Indigo" is the actress's name, not the character's.
Oh, is that what he's talking about. Weird how he notices and
comments on the credits, which I try not to notice, but rarely
mentions the music.
"Indigo" doesn't seem unusually weird. For a long time I kept getting
confused by the Firefly names. Specifically, which one was Summer,
which one was River, and which one was Jewel.
-Dan Damouth
Arbitrar Of Quality
Hmmm. Maybe that could lend support to the idea that the First wasn't
able to do its
exterminate-the-Slayer-line-by-taking-out-the-potentials-first thing at
the time, prior to Buffy's second death. Or not.
The rest of this conversation doesn't seem like a matter of huge
importance to me, but I think "Bargaining" as the trigger is more
narratively satisfying, so unless the show contradicts that, this is
how it shall be.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> "Indigo" doesn't seem unusually weird. For a long time I kept getting
> confused by the Firefly names. Specifically, which one was Summer,
> which one was River, and which one was Jewel.
They all had both first and last names.
-AOQ
Apteryx
news:dsample-005BD5...@news.giganews.com...
> In article <ef79n7$l3k$1...@emma.aioe.org>, "Apteryx" <apt...@xtra.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1159121839.1...@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>> >A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>> >threads.
>>
>>
>> >BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> >Season Seven, Episode 11: "Showtime"
>> >(or "It's getting very crowded in here!")
>> >Writer: David Fury
>> >Director: Michael Grossman
>>
>> >Before going into anything else - "Indigo?" It seems weird next
>> >to all the normal names. [Movie!Buffy] Okay, that's not a *name*?
>> >That's a *color*! [/MB]
>>
>> It's only weird compared to the other potentials' names. Maybe its a clue
>> she'll be the next Slayer :)
>
> "Indigo" is the actress's name, not the character's.
Ah yes, I had forgotten "just Indigo". And naturally I have forgotten most
of the potentials characters' names as well :)
--
Apteryx
Arbitrar Of Quality
> On 24 Sep 2006 11:17:19 -0700, "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com>
> wrote:
> >To that end, the way the Mini-Chosen (hereafter "the MC5")
>
> Since MCT5 is already used, I think "Buffy and the Potentials" makes a
> petter musical group name.
The whole point of the joke would be to make the reference. Granted
the MC5 (the band) were much cooler than these kids, but I'm still
amusing myself with it.
> since I didn't post a comment to the BOtN, I'll throw in a favorite Dru
> STF (Slash The First) moment from it here,
>
> Spike: "You're not Dru."
> Dru STF: "No, I'm really not."
> Spike: "Dru was crazier."
I like that one too. Landau's amused delivery makes that part have two
punchlines (and "get bent," the bigger punchline, is still to come a
few lines later).
> Everyone who knows about it is pretty much in agreement that TF is, very
> literally, older than dirt.
Older than either the Bang or the Word, supposedly. So whatever your
creation story is, it's there.
I interpret that to be that TF is what in the
> Marvel Universe is called a Conceptual Entity (that is, a physical
> embodiment of a concept), like Death, Oblivion, Infinity, Eternity, Order,
> Chaos and others. TF is the concept of 'evil' given sentient existence (I
> was going to say 'given form', but that doesn't work for FE)
Yeah, it's an abstract. Hopefully it'll stay that way, since
Conceptual Entities get silly when they turn into monsters that can be
beaten up... it's something BTVS has to be particularly wary of since
it's been such a metaphor/manifestation-heavy show anyway. (As a video
game player, one gets a lot of that. One Final Fantasy game seriously
had a representation of the concept of "giving death power over life"
as the final enemy.
> FE, by itself, probably makes posts look like Einstein. It's immortal and
> invulnerable, it doesn't have any particular reason to have developed
> intelligence, in and of itself.
>
> FE takes on the personality and other traits of the dead people it
> manifests as. We've seen it repeatedly talk and act in pretty much the
> exact manner of the current STF, even when that level of mimicry is
> completely lost on its audience (see Spike and The Mayor). I further
> extrapolate that how it reasons and how well is also influenced by its
> current STF, and the more it uses an STF
[snip]
> Now it's carrying out another plan, but its personality and reasoning are
> going to be influenced by the STFs that it manifests as. Thus far in the
> season, it has used several different STFs, but Spike and Buffy
> predominate.
The thing is, under that construction, how does it come up with a plan
or the idea to manifest in the first place if it has no capacity for
that until it manifests? It'd be rather confusing to have its strategy
and entire outlook constantly changing depending on whom it is at the
moment
> Also entering into the equation, Buffy has fought Ubie twice now (with
> this the third time), we've seen over and over, from the very beginning
> (Luke) that the more times Buffy fights an opponent, the better she gets
> at fighting that opponent, she has a very fast learning curve when it
> comes to fighting.
True.
-AOQ
Elisi
Don Sample wrote:
> In article <1159127154.6...@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
> > > > standard, but still good, example of the BTVS formula. Introduce a
> > > > bizarre over-the-top entity who speaks in intonations, and then give it
> > > > a line like "what, am I talking to myself here?" And as for
> > > > introducing the new plot point regarding why exactly the First is able
> > > > to attack where it hadn't in the past... well, why not? I hear that
> > > > that's the thing about magic: there's always consequences.
> > > > (Always.) Long-term consequences are good.
> > >
> > > that caused the imbalance, but was it? The big change in the Slayer
> > > line happened when Xander brought Buffy back in "Prophecy Girl."
> >
> > And when the third Slayer shows up, you'll be proven right. Until then,
> > can we please just stick with what seems logical? Buffy died a natural
> > death and was revived naturally. Her death triggered Kendra, and
> > Kendra's death triggered Faith. When Buffy died again in The Gift the
> > natural order was quite simply restored.
>
> What does the existence, or non-existence of a third Slayer have to do
> with it?
Sorry, I'm getting different discussions mixed up. Very tired you see.
> > Willow's resurrection - which messed with powerful magic - obvously did
> > *something* to mess up the Slayerline, something bad enough to allow
> > The First to rise. Did The First target all the Potentials back in
> > Amends f.ex? Was it interested in Buffy except in how she could be
> > Angel's undoing? Not really.
>
> The First wanted Angel to kill Buffy. That was its plan. Angel was the
> tool, not the objective. Him deciding to kill himself was a less than
> optimum outcome for it.
I'm not sure. Having re-watched it recently, it seemed to me that The
Firts didn't want him dead, it wanted him dark. Or soulless. It used
Buffy as the tool for Angel's undoing - I really tried to look for
early signs of 'I want to exterminate all the Slayers warg!', but I
couldn't see any. But to be honest the thing is so fuzzy it's hard to
tell.
Anyway, I still say that when comparing natural death and instant
revival versus mystical death and mystical resurrection 3 months later,
the mystical one is the more likely trigger. Esp since the show goes
out of its way to say so:
GILES
It's not because she died. The Beljoxa's Eye was quite clear about that
in its enigmatic way. It's because she lives. Again. Buffy's not
responsible for that.
ANYA
Oh. Oh. Willow and me and Xander and Tara. We're the ones who brought
Buffy back. We're-we're the reason The First is here, the reason
those girls were murdered. No, it's our fault. The would would've been
better off if Buffy had just stayed dead.
Considering how little inforation we have to go on, I'd say this is the
it. As AOQ put it, it is the most narratively satisfying.
Daniel Damouth
My god, you're right! Going by a single name is just weird as hell!
-DD
Don Sample
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Anyway, I still say that when comparing natural death and instant
> revival versus mystical death and mystical resurrection 3 months later,
> the mystical one is the more likely trigger. Esp since the show goes
> out of its way to say so:
>
> GILES
> It's not because she died. The Beljoxa's Eye was quite clear about that
> in its enigmatic way. It's because she lives. Again. Buffy's not
> responsible for that.
>
> ANYA
> Oh. Oh. Willow and me and Xander and Tara. We're the ones who brought
> Buffy back. We're-we're the reason The First is here, the reason
> those girls were murdered. No, it's our fault. The would would've been
> better off if Buffy had just stayed dead.
>
> Considering how little inforation we have to go on, I'd say this is the
> it. As AOQ put it, it is the most narratively satisfying.
Enigmatic:
Of or resembling an enigma; puzzling. See synonyms at ambiguous.
Enigma:
1. One that is puzzling, ambiguous, or inexplicable.
2. A perplexing speech or text; a riddle.
Giles says that what Beljoxa's Eye told them was enigmatic. We only
hear his interpretation of what it said. Anya continues with her
interpretation of Giles' interpretation: a double layer of ambiguity.
We can draw no certain conclusions from anything that happens in the
scenes with Beljoxa's Eye. They were a total waste of time, merely there
to get Giles and Anya out of the way for the rest of the episode.
(Harmony) Watcher
> In article <A_HRg.24746$R63.16731@pd7urf1no>,
> "\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
>
> > "Ian Galbraith" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
> > news:1r3l41ckcphyk$.aywxvde7icwm.dlg@40tude.net...
> > > On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 01:40:37 +0100, Stephen Tempest wrote:
> > >
> > > > Vi has been described, on umtbvs, as 'Willow
> > > > Lite', and developed quite a mini-fan club among certain viewers...
> > >
> > > Vi rules :-).
> > >
> > > Erfcbafvoyr sbe bar bs zl snibevgr zbzragf va F7 jura fur nggnpxf gur
> > > horeinzcf va Pubfra nsgre trggvat gur fynlre cbjre.
> > >
> > > [snip]
> > >
> > >
> > Naq fur jnf bar bs gur srj cbgragvnyf-ghearq-Fynlre jub fheivirq gur
svany
> > onggyr ng gur raq bs gur Frevrf Svanyr.
>
> Zbfg bs gur Cbgragvnyf fheivirq gur svany rapbhagre. Gur bayl anzrq
> Cbgragvny gb qvr va gur svany onggyr jnf Nznaqn.
>
gur ohf. V tbg gur qvfgvapg vzcerffvba gung znal bs gurz qvrq. Vs zbfg bs
gurz fheivirq, gurl zhfg or frireryl vawherq naq fybhpuvat va gurve frngf fb
gung gur ivrjre pna'g frr nal bs gurz sebz gur pnzren fubgf.
Vg qvqa'g ybbx yvxr n fubeg ohf, fb nffhzvat vg jnf gur fznyyre "shyy fvmr"
ohf, vg jbhyq fgvyy ng yrnfg unir 59 frngf. V bayl fnj sbhe arjyl npgvingrq
Fynlrerggrf fgrc bhg bs gur ohf.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
ravimotha
> This is actually why I don't think the group of 4 episodes ending in this
> one are particularly good, they're too plot driven and not particularly
> resonant emotionally or thematically. And the plot doesn't bear up to
> close scrutiny. I'd rank all 4 of them as Decent although Sleeper might
> be a low Good.
I found the pacing of the plotting wasn't necessarily to my liking
(obviously
that's being subjective).
Spike was taking too long at this point and had lost it's resonance.
The MC5 I sort of liked though not Kennedy..
Anya had sort of come back into it, I thought the addition of Andrew as
a useless outsider was a brilliant move, because at this point all the
characters had suddenly become very intense...
This does not mean to say I did not like this episode
It's almost the statement. bang we are on,
now we start. It almot like they were treading water till a
certain poit, because they realised they had got their plot devices
almost but all in place to early, and needed to dial it down,
Otherwise they could have had a 19 episode final series...grin
Don't get me wrong, I love things where intricate plotting and such is
part and parcel of the show It's just they have done this so much
better that they are fighting against the expectations they place on
themselves...
regards
Ravi
Don Sample
> ==Unezbal Jngpure==
Gur ohf jnf abjurer arne shyy. Jr fnj nobhg 30 tveyf tb qbja vagb gur
Uryyzbhgu. Jr fnj nobhg 20 pbzr bhg ntnva. Bs gur anzrq Fynlrerggrf,
bayl Nznaqn qvrq. Bs gur fheivibef, jr bayl fnj gung Eban naq Ebova
jrer onqyl vawherq.
Rincewind
> "Rincewind" <rincewi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Actually my reaction was: how the hell did the bringers manage to kill
>> Eve
>> inside a LOCKED hotel room? She knew they were trying to kill her and she
>> invited them in for a cup of tea? And then they locked the door on their
>> way
>> out?
>
> The First has a Bringer knock on the door, Eve looks out, and sees her
> Watcher. She says "Oh my god! I thought you were dead!" and opens her
> door. Bringers kill her.
>
> Most hotels and motels I've been in have doors that are permanently
> locked from the outside. You leave the room, and the door locks behind
> you. You always need a key to open it again.
I have never been in a motel. I assumed motel doors worked like the other
doors we have seen in Sunnydale (Buffy's house, Giles' house and Faith's
apartment).
Rincewind.
--
What I have learned from Buffy:
Never lock your doors if you want to lead an interesting life.
Rincewind
The last idea would have been good if they had made the little effort of
showing it on screen...
Rincewind.
--
Lines you'll never hear on Buffy:
BUFFY: Oh, look! Sensible shoes!
Rincewind
>> news:LMBRg.2881$Xm....@tornado.fastwebnet.it...
>> >
>> > <snip>
>> >
>> > Actually my reaction was: how the hell did the bringers manage to kill
>> > Eve
>> > inside a LOCKED hotel room? She knew they were trying to kill her and
>> > she
>> > invited them in for a cup of tea? And then they locked the door on
>> > their
>> way
>> > out?
>> > she
>> > had been watching too many Angel episodes and she thought "If Angel can
>> kick
>> > down at least one door per episode I must show my fans that I can
>> > occasionally kick a door too"?
>> >
>> > And then Buffy runs home to confront First!Eve in the basement and my
>> > reaction is: how did Xander materialize at her side? She entered the
>> > house
>> > alone, she rushed down the stairs followed by Willow, Dawn and Andrew
>> > and
>> > then suddenly Xander is there on the stairs with her.
>> >
>> >
>> Writer's mistake or director's mistake? Anyone?
>
> I don't really see it as a mistake. Buffy runs into the house while
> he's parking the car. He comes in later, and rejoins everyone in the
> basement.
Not the way it is shot and edited: there was no time for him to come later
(unless Buffy's house has a VERY long stairway and it takes minutes to climb
down to the basement...).
Rincewind.
--
Lines you'll never hear on Buffy:
BUFFY to Spike: You're not alive because of hate or pain. You're alive
because Marti Noxon loves to see your naked body and will never let me stake
you.
Rincewind
>
> Rincewind wrote:
>>
>> Noticeable Mistake of the Week:
>> Anya's lips moving totally out of synch with the audio in the scene where
>> she and Giles are trying to convince the demon to open the portal.
>> Actually there is a good explanation for this (and many more mistakes
>> like
>> this one in later episodes): season 7 episodes where edited thinking that
>> they would be broadcast as fullscreen (4:3 ratio) so the editor didn't
>> care
>> about whatever was visible in the extreme left and right regions because
>> in
>> 4:3 those parts are not visible. And then the thing was put on DVD as
>> widescreen so those parts became visible.
>
> Just FYI, the R1 DVD's are in 4:3, so nobody with that set knows what
> you're talking about. ;-)
>
> Joss never intended BtVS to be in widescreen. IIRC, he was a bit
> annoyed that the R2 dvds were. There was a note in one of the R1 sets,
> might have been S7, explaining why it wasn't in widescreen. This is in
> contrast to Angel and Firefly, which he did see as more cinematic.
> Anyway, there are all sorts of fun goofs on the R2 sets.
I didn't know that. I had read an interview where Joss complained about the
the DVD's being widescreen when he wanted them fullscreen, but I must have
missed the detail about the region.
Rincewind.
--
Lines you'll never hear on Buffy:
WILLOW: Okay, that's it. No more locator spells.
Don Sample
"Rincewind" <rincewi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Several second pass between when Buffy goes down the stairs, and we see
Xander. A person can move a long way in several seconds.
bookworm
> Malsperanza wrote:
>> (Harmony) Watcher wrote:
>>> "Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> news:1159142616.2...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>> I started noticing these little flubs and flaws because I had trouble
>>>> getting deeply engaged with the Slayerettes.
>>
>>
>>> Hey, don't blame Xander's amorous urges on the Slayerettes! :)
>>
>> Bada-boom.
>>
>>> Of all the
>>> Slayerettes, I think only Kennedy was guilty of all your charges. :)
>>
>> Aww, poor Kennedy. I didn't think she was so bad.
>
> I rather liked her, after my first knee-jerk indignation at her attitude
> (which, on reflection, reminded me a lot of Buffy, Faith, *and* Kendra,
> actually...)
>
Liked Kennedy too, except for her "eager beaver"-attitude. that was a
big turn-off.
Zl snibhevgr cbgragvny vf Nznaqn, sbyybjrq ol Eban.
Rincewind
>
> "Rincewind" <rincewi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> reaction is: how did Xander materialize at her side? She entered the
>> house
>> alone, she rushed down the stairs followed by Willow, Dawn and Andrew and
>> then suddenly Xander is there on the stairs with her.
>>
>>
> Writer's mistake or director's mistake? Anyone?
Director's.
According to the script:
CUT TO:
Later. The front door opens and Buffy and Xander enter. Buffy immediately
checks the dining room and living room.
...
CUT TO:
13 INT. SUMMERS HOME— BASEMENT— DAY 13
Dawn, Willow, Xander and Andrew follow Buffy down the stairs where they find
the girls playing cards.
>> >
>> And she didn't even bring any weapon.
>>
> Yet another minor yet annoying execution mistake most typical of B-movies.
> I
> don't think it would be spoilerish to say that I think Season 7 has too
> many
> of these than all other seasons combined.
Oh, yes. S7 had a lot of very good ideas, but there where so many flaws in
the execution that the good stuff drowned in them.
Rincewind.
--
What I have learned from Buffy:
If a show is good enough for long enough, I will sit through any crap that
it spews at me in the final seasons.
Rincewind
According to the script Buffy and Xander are supposed to enter the house
together and go down the stairs together. The director has obviously made a
mistake.
Rincewind.
--
Lines you'll never hear on Buffy:
GILES: Oh and do please lock the door.
bookworm
Punb-Nua qvrq gbb. Fur jnf ovggra juvyr Ohssl jnf pebhpuvat ba gur sybbe
jvgu ure arneyl - ohg abg dhvgr zbegny fgno-jbhaq.
Ohg V tbg gur vzcerffvba gbb gung dhvgr n srj cbgragvny fheivirq.
bookworm
hayes62
> After thinking about "Showtime" a little. I've realized that I
> see it as something of a series of snapshot moments, attempts at iconic
> images of Buffy and the state of her series. This starts from the
> beginning, with the arrival of a new character (Rona) who's pretty
> much guaranteed to either die or be rescued at the last minute by Buffy
> from the moment the episode begins. This exists to show Buffy, veteran
> world-saver, taking a new kid under her wing and welcoming her to the
> Hellmouth. That's snapshot #1. The episode is like a string of
> attempts at memorable images loosely strung together by a plot.
>
Yes and after the beating down she got in the last episode I needed
that. In a way Buffy's plan to put on a show, give potentials an
image of who she was and why they should have confidence in her
leadership, was an attempt to do something similar within the story.
> There're plenty of young would-be Slayers in da house. Is this
> episode crawling with characters or what? Except that the
> Proto-Slayers pretty much all merge together into one amalgamated
> character. After having seen two episodes' worth of them, all I know
> is that Kennedy is the less pessimistic one with the house with wings
> (just a couple. A few) who seems to be hitting on Willow, and the
> black kid whose name I can never remember (Rona) is the newbie of the
> group who's never met a Watcher. Sometimes this works to the
> show's disadvantage. For example, upon the revelation that the real
> Eve is dead, the typical viewer's reaction will be less "holy shit,
> Eve is the First!" and more "uh, which one was Eve again?" I was
> definitely getting worried that our heroes would get lost in the
> shuffle, although the last act at least makes it clear who the star is.
> My advice to BTVS, despite the underdeveloped Mini-Chosen, would be
> not to try to spend too much time making each one stand out. The show
> is halfway through its last season; most of us don't want to spend
> time meeting five (or however many there are) new characters, they want
> to see stories about Buffy, Xander, Willow, and Giles. And maybe Spike
> and/or Dawn, depending on the fan.
>
It's good advice. And after all it's not the number of new
characters that's really the problem. I think Buffy interviewed at
least as many previously unseen individuals in Help but no-one had much
of a issue with that because they were obviously unlikely to ever have
speaking parts again. It's less obvious how important it is to get to
know the MC5 individually but I thought the very fact that they arrived
all together meant we weren't supposed to try any harder than the
regulars seem to be. Buffy said she was declaring war and maybe a war
movie would be a good model for what's going on now. One of those set
in a fighter pilot squadron where the heroes are surrounded by a
largish number of minor characters, who only get name-checked when they
do something stupid or get themselves killed but still contribute
something to the story by commenting on it.
> To that end, the way the Mini-Chosen (hereafter "the MC5") are used
> within this story is all right. The snapshot/image is seeing them all
> lounging around the exercise equipment - some train, some just
> complain, but no one has any idea what they're going to do. It's
> easy to get frustrated with their constant doubting, which I think is a
> well-calculated effect. These confused girls are perfectly reasonable
> in not feeling safe and not taking Buffy's reassurances at face
> value. Especially since she's pretty much clutching at straws, and
> has admitted as much out loud. As the viewers of the show, we know
> that she is indeed all she's cracked up to be, and so we feel her
> frustration that she can't look good and get through to them. And if
> the main characters ever pettily wish that the MC5 would just shut the
> hell up for five minutes and let the real Slayer do her job, well,
> we're right there with them, even if we can't rationally blame the
> girls for it.
>
> When the First isn't hanging out at Casa Summers, it's continuing
> to torture Spike, just because. How exactly is he so important to
> Buffy's anti-First efforts, again? Just as a research subject? The
> escape fantasy comes off pretty well, and since the Big Bad is back to
> being Buffy after a week of Drusilla, Gellar gets to bust out that
> great smug bitch delivery they let her do once in awhile. "She will
> come for me." "No, I won't."
>
He's like a hostage. And Buffy being so fixated on that particular
hostage is already causing a little dissension in the ranks.
> One of the episode's subplots concerns Giles and Anya paying a visit
> to an eye monster. On the way, they have to intimidate an ex-lover
> ("Um, perhaps this might change your mind. You help us, and the
> Slayer won't kill your clientele and burn your establishment to the
> ground." Well, that's one way to do it). And there's another
> strange example of Anya immediately thinking of sex as a
> weapon/negotiation tool. Back in "Sleeper," it was hard to tell
> what that was being played for, but the tone here seems to suggest that
> her problems with identity and self-worth haven't magically vanished.
> The show goes for some quieter jokes like another "is it the
> hair?" routine, and has her turning again to Giles as a parental
> figure.
>
Yes, Anya still has issues. Her relationship with Xander continues to
grow, although we don't see so much of them together in this
particular episode, but there's been some backsliding on other
fronts.
> The proximate showdown here is the battle with the Übervamp.
> There's some meandering towards the makeshift arena for this fight.
> The Slaypack's plan as far as setting it up seems a little silly and
> not especially workable, but gimmicky as it is, I did enjoy the reveal
> of the telepathic conversation. Then, the battle itself also seems
> like not the most foolproof plan, and they're staking a lot on a
> gamble. In the latter case, though, it works with the story being
> told. Buffy sticks with what she knows when fighting evil, an approach
> that summarizes how she deals with both single combat situations and as
> an overall strategy. Namely, throw everything you can possibly think
> of at it in hopes that something will work, and above all, don't give
> up. It works here with the Übervamp - triumph not through
> outsmarting the enemy so much as out-determined-ing it. Time will tell
> whether or not it's also a winning strategy against the First.
>
Another well choreographed fight with a genuinely brutal look to it,
the first time I saw it I wanted to stand up and cheer when she won.
Still do a little.
> So, like the beginning, the ending is all about the Kodak moments.
> I've been saying that without qualitative judgments, but I think that
> these are pretty good. Straightforward, to be sure, but sometimes
> straightforward is appropriate. Buffy standing tall with her charges
> looking on in awe, after taking out another "unstoppable" foe.
> Buffy inspiring the troops, and appropriating "here endeth the
> lesson," which was previously reserved for villains. Spike's
> wide-eyed joy when he realizes that our hero really has come to rescue
> him. The two of them, bloodied but triumphant, staggering off together
> into the proverbial sunset. Big sweeping movie moments. That's just
> the way this one works.
>
> So...
the curtain closes and it's on to the next stage.
drifter
Well, "It's not because she died." She died in Prophecy Girl *and* The
Gift. "It's because she lives. Again." She lives, again, in Prophecy
Girl *and* in Bargaining. She didn't become any MORE alive in one
than in the other, regardless of HOW she came back. The natural
order was first FUBARed in Prophecy Girl, narratively satisfying or
not.
--
Kel
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own."
Ken from Chicago
>
> vague disclaimer wrote:
>> In article <1159121839.1...@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Then, the battle itself also seems
>> > like not the most foolproof plan, and they're staking a lot on a
>> > gamble.
>>
>> more or less as you do, except I think having a bunch of newbies around
>> throws a potentially (arf) interesting challenge at Buffy).
>>
>> The scene was shot pretty much as scripted - ie a bog standard
>> Buffy-fights-baddie-and-gets-beaten-up-a-bit-then-kills-baddie.
>>
>> What we really needed, given both the episode title and premise, was
>> Buffy *working out* Chaka Kahn systematically and cooly.
>
> And if they had really cast Chaka Khan, the episode would have had
> something to it. Talk about grrl power.
>
> Except for the Spike bits, this episode mostly tired me out. The first
> half was modeled on the famous stateroom scene from "A Night at the
> Opera": How many more giggling teenage girls can we pack into this
> story line? Yes, I get that they are sposed to be irritating and
> giggly, because even Potentials are normal teens, and all that hormonal
> energy can translate into fiend-fightin' fists o' fury. But. Just, but.
>
> The latter half of the episode was a(nother) shout-out to Thunderdome.
> That said, the battle and its lesson were well-done, and cinametically
> more exciting than the original movie.
>
> And I did like the way Spike's Buffy Rescue fantasy got all tangled up
> with First's own Buffy fantasies. And the actual rescue was pure 1940s
> movieland, with Buffy in the Hero (guy) role:
>
> Cary Grant: I love you. [...] Come on--try to sit up. Sit up. I'm going
> to get you out of here.
> Ingrid Bergman: Say it again; it keeps me awake.
>
> The show certainly seems to be yanking the chain of Spuffy shippers.
>
> ~Mal
>
True love wins out!
Love can kill the demon!
Love conquers all.
A stitch in time saves nine?
I before e except after-ah, forgeddaboudit.
-- Cliched Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
<jil...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1159143350.8...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Don Sample wrote:
>> The First wanted Angel to kill Buffy. That was its plan. Angel was the
>> tool, not the objective. Him deciding to kill himself was a less than
>> optimum outcome for it.
>
> seems so far that killing BUFFY is under category "Not to be done yet."
And Spike, being better than Angel, doesn't wuss out with sunicide (TM),
abandoning her to face Sunnydale alone, but also refuses to help kill Buffy.
Then again, William didn't start out as evil as Liam to begin with.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1159160878....@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
Plus, as a wise demon once said, why go for the kill when you can go for the
pain? The First has been throwing clues at Buffy to intimidate her instead
of just going about its evil business.
-- Ken from Chicago
vague disclaimer
"Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> (Harmony) Watcher wrote:
> > "Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:1159142616.2...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > I started noticing these little flubs and flaws because I had trouble
> > > getting deeply engaged with the Slayerettes.
>
>
> > Hey, don't blame Xander's amorous urges on the Slayerettes! :)
>
> Bada-boom.
>
> > Of all the
> > Slayerettes, I think only Kennedy was guilty of all your charges. :)
>
> Aww, poor Kennedy.
Ah Kennedy. Prompter of more puerile bollocks to spew across the
internet than anyone outside the regular cast.
Apparently being hot, strong and Not!Tara is a capital offence.
--
Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> Eve is dead, the typical viewer's reaction will be less "holy shit,
> Eve is the First!" and more "uh, which one was Eve again?" I was
> definitely getting worried that our heroes would get lost in the
also fe likes to talk big about being biggest baddest evil
of being omniscient and omnipresent
but we have no independent witness of that
for example did fe already know about faith
or did it just learn there was another slayer at this?
meow arf meow - they are performing horrible experiments in space
major grubert is watching you - beware the bakalite
there can only be one or two - the airtight garage has you neo
vague disclaimer
Ian Galbraith <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> Erfcbafvoyr sbe bar bs zl snibevgr zbzragf va F7 jura fur nggnpxf gur
> horeinzcf va Pubfra nsgre trggvat gur fynlre cbjre.
Hell yeah!
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> I'm not sure. Having re-watched it recently, it seemed to me that The
> Firts didn't want him dead, it wanted him dark. Or soulless. It used
> Buffy as the tool for Angel's undoing - I really tried to look for
> early signs of 'I want to exterminate all the Slayers warg!', but I
> couldn't see any. But to be honest the thing is so fuzzy it's hard to
> tell.
it has enough soulless vampires already
and the turok-han can beat up any of the more human ones
from angel and spike it seems a vampire with a soul
has special signficance
(should fe be first evil or fuzzy evil?)
Don Sample
bookworm <ana...@mur.at> wrote:
Gur Nfvna tvey jr fnj trg ovggra jnfa'g Punb-Nua. Fur jnf fbzr bgure
haanzrq Nfvna cbgragvny.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> > Everyone who knows about it is pretty much in agreement that TF is, very
> > literally, older than dirt.
>
> Older than either the Bang or the Word, supposedly. So whatever your
> creation story is, it's there.
is it older than bob barker?
> Yeah, it's an abstract. Hopefully it'll stay that way, since
> Conceptual Entities get silly when they turn into monsters that can be
i guess not all abstracts look like salma hayek
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> gur ohf. V tbg gur qvfgvapg vzcerffvba gung znal bs gurz qvrq. Vs zbfg bs
> gurz fheivirq, gurl zhfg or frireryl vawherq naq fybhpuvat va gurve frngf fb
> gung gur ivrjre pna'g frr nal bs gurz sebz gur pnzren fubgf.
frrzf zber yvxr cebqhpgvba ohqtrg ceboyrz
gurer jrer n ybg zber jnaanorf va gur ubhfr ng gur ynfg pbasrerapr frffvba
jura ohssl jnf rkcynvavat ure cyna
guna fubjrq hc ng gur frny be crepvcvpr
gurl pbhyq cebonoyl nssbeq gb cnpx gur frgf va gur jnerubhfr
jvgu nyy gur jbzra va gur cebqhpgvba be jnyxvat qbja gur fgerrg
ohg ba ybpngvba be neenatvat fghagf sbe gur svtug
gurl arrqrq gb hfr n fznyyre naq purncre ahzore bs jbzra
Rincewind
>
> Ah Kennedy. Prompter of more puerile bollocks to spew across the
> internet than anyone outside the regular cast.
>
> Apparently being hot, strong and Not!Tara is a capital offence.
Well, being Not!Tara is something she shares with every other human being on
the planet... and she is not hot according to my standards.
Since the first moment she set foot in Casa Summers she has mostly been very
annoying and occasionally rude, which are not capital offences, but
certainly don't make me like her.
Rincewind.
--
Lines you'll never hear on Buffy:
WILLOW: Guess what guys! I'm straight again! I just looked at Kennedy and
thought "If this is all I can get, might as well go straight!". Isn't it
great.
Rowan Hawthorn
> "vague disclaimer" <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
>> Ah Kennedy. Prompter of more puerile bollocks to spew across the
>> internet than anyone outside the regular cast.
>>
>> Apparently being hot, strong and Not!Tara is a capital offence.
>
> Well, being Not!Tara is something she shares with every other human being on
> the planet... and she is not hot according to my standards.
>
> Since the first moment she set foot in Casa Summers she has mostly been very
> annoying and occasionally rude
Which certainly sets her apart from every other character on the show...
<snicker>
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Rowan Hawthorn
> In article <1159162367....@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Everyone who knows about it is pretty much in agreement that TF is, very
>>> literally, older than dirt.
>> Older than either the Bang or the Word, supposedly. So whatever your
>> creation story is, it's there.
>
> is it older than bob barker?
>
>> Yeah, it's an abstract. Hopefully it'll stay that way, since
>> Conceptual Entities get silly when they turn into monsters that can be
>
> i guess not all abstracts look like salma hayek
Which, in my personal universe, is a damn shame...
Malsperanza
Ken from Chicago wrote:
> Then again, William didn't start out as evil as Liam to begin with.
Does that affect vampires? It isn't discussed much, is it?
Spike got pretty damn evol for about 100 years, no? Isn't it more a
question of how long a vamp lives? or rather, unlives?
~Mal
Elisi
Don Sample wrote:
> In article <1159164601....@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>,
> "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > revival versus mystical death and mystical resurrection 3 months later,
> > the mystical one is the more likely trigger. Esp since the show goes
> > out of its way to say so:
> >
> > GILES
> > It's not because she died. The Beljoxa's Eye was quite clear about that
> > in its enigmatic way. It's because she lives. Again. Buffy's not
> > responsible for that.
> >
> > Oh. Oh. Willow and me and Xander and Tara. We're the ones who brought
> > Buffy back. We're-we're the reason The First is here, the reason
> > those girls were murdered. No, it's our fault. The would would've been
> > better off if Buffy had just stayed dead.
> >
> > Considering how little inforation we have to go on, I'd say this is the
> > it. As AOQ put it, it is the most narratively satisfying.
>
> Enigmatic:
> Of or resembling an enigma; puzzling. See synonyms at ambiguous.
>
> Enigma:
> 1. One that is puzzling, ambiguous, or inexplicable.
> 2. A perplexing speech or text; a riddle.
>
> Giles says that what Beljoxa's Eye told them was enigmatic. We only
> hear his interpretation of what it said. Anya continues with her
> interpretation of Giles' interpretation: a double layer of ambiguity.
>
> We can draw no certain conclusions from anything that happens in the
> scenes with Beljoxa's Eye. They were a total waste of time, merely there
> to get Giles and Anya out of the way for the rest of the episode.
Well it's either that, or a way of giving the viewer (and the Scoobies)
a little clue as to where the problem might lie. We 've been told so
little, that to dismiss the crumb they're throwing us as 'enigmatic
ambiguity' seems churlish.
Anyway, if the split happened way back in S1, why has the FE only just
started its campaign now? I have no problems in giving it a year to
assess the situation and get a full scale assult ready (a lot of
potentials and watchers killed in very short time), but _5 years_?
That's an awfully long time.
Also, if the line split back then, there _ought_ to be a 3rd slayer,
who was called when Buffy died the second time. If there wasn't, then
her first death was not significant in that it did not split the line.
Therefore, it was the Scoobies spell that mucked things up.
Malsperanza
Is it possible that "She lives. Again" refers to the fact that it
happened twice? The Universe could tolerate one Slayer resurrection,
but two (to quote Lady Bracknell), looks like carelessness.
Just another possibility. Seems clear that the show does not want this
one decided definitively, but offers three possibilities, with
different implications:
1, In Prophecy Girl, Xander saved Buffy's life, in a totally humane,
decent act of heroism. He revived her after 2 minutes of death, which
is not all that uncommon for first aid rescues. From that virtuous act
came an unintended consequence: a second Slayer, a disruption of the
mystical order, and an opportunity for the First to become Present on
earth.
2. In Bargaining, Willow and friends brought Buffy back to life after
more than 5 months (and much longer, in heaven-time), in a totally
loving but not altogether un-self-interested act of magic. From that
act came an unintended consequence: a disruption of the mystical order,
and an opportunity for the First to become Present on earth.
3. It was the combination of the two events that created an opportunity
for the First to become Present on earth.
Like AOQ, I feel that the idea that Xander's CPR on Buffy could lead to
the arrival of First Evil is less satisfying narratively than the idea
that the Scoobies' hubris and blindness to consequences (and their
love) did the deed. But there seems to me ample room for either version
to work.
~Mal
rrh...@acme.com
Daniel Damouth wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
> news:1159161327....@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com:
>
> > Daniel Damouth wrote:
> >
> >> "Indigo" doesn't seem unusually weird. For a long time I kept
> >> getting confused by the Firefly names. Specifically, which one
> >> was Summer, which one was River, and which one was Jewel.
> >
> > They all had both first and last names.
>
> My god, you're right! Going by a single name is just weird as hell!
What strikes me is that AOQ is unfazed by "Azura Skye" but comments on
"Indigo".
I looked her up on IMDB. Apparently her real name, or at least
previous stage name, is "Alyssa Nichols". She got into the business in
the mid-'90s under that name, but switched around 2001. Presumably the
single-word name is hoped to be more memorable. That we are having
this discussion suggests that this hope is not in vain.
She currently has a fairly unmemorable supporting role in Weeds (which
is a fun show, by the way). This seems to be the story of her career:
she gets work, but in unmemorable supporting roles.
Richard R. Hershberger
(Harmony) Watcher
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1159190411.9...@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
thousand years in the human dimension.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
vague disclaimer
Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Rincewind wrote:
> > "vague disclaimer" <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
> >> Ah Kennedy. Prompter of more puerile bollocks to spew across the
> >> internet than anyone outside the regular cast.
> >>
> >> Apparently being hot, strong and Not!Tara is a capital offence.
> >
> > Well, being Not!Tara is something she shares with every other human being
> > on
> > the planet... and she is not hot according to my standards.
> >
> > Since the first moment she set foot in Casa Summers she has mostly been
> > very
> > annoying and occasionally rude
>
> Which certainly sets her apart from every other character on the show...
> <snicker>
It does doesn't it? That Spike is always so charming.
vague disclaimer
bookworm <ana...@mur.at> wrote:
>
> Punb-Nua qvrq gbb. Fur jnf ovggra juvyr Ohssl jnf pebhpuvat ba gur sybbe
> jvgu ure arneyl - ohg abg dhvgr zbegny fgno-jbhaq.
>
> Ohg V tbg gur vzcerffvba gbb gung dhvgr n srj cbgragvny fheivirq.
Abcr. Qvssrerag Puvarfr tvey. Knaqre jnf graqvat gb Pubn Nua ba gur ohf.
vague disclaimer
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
>
> Gur ohf jnf abjurer arne shyy. Jr fnj nobhg 30 tveyf tb qbja vagb gur
> Uryyzbhgu. Jr fnj nobhg 20 pbzr bhg ntnva. Bs gur anzrq Fynlrerggrf,
> bayl Nznaqn qvrq. Bs gur fheivibef, jr bayl fnj gung Eban naq Ebova
> jrer onqyl vawherq.
Jung'f gur pncnpvgl bs n fgnaqneq HF fpubby ohf?
Steve Schaffner
> "Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> > "Rincewind" <rincewi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Actually my reaction was: how the hell did the bringers manage to kill
> >> Eve
> >> inside a LOCKED hotel room? She knew they were trying to kill her and she
> >> invited them in for a cup of tea? And then they locked the door on their
> >> way
> >> out?
> >
> > The First has a Bringer knock on the door, Eve looks out, and sees her
> > Watcher. She says "Oh my god! I thought you were dead!" and opens her
> > door. Bringers kill her.
> >
> > Most hotels and motels I've been in have doors that are permanently
> > locked from the outside. You leave the room, and the door locks behind
> > you. You always need a key to open it again.
>
> I have never been in a motel. I assumed motel doors worked like the other
> doors we have seen in Sunnydale (Buffy's house, Giles' house and Faith's
> apartment).
They never lock at all?
--
Steve Schaffner s...@broad.mit.edu
Immediate assurance is an excellent sign of probable lack of
insight into the topic. Josiah Royce
Rincewind
> "Rincewind" <rincewi...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> I have never been in a motel. I assumed motel doors worked like the other
>> doors we have seen in Sunnydale (Buffy's house, Giles' house and Faith's
>> apartment).
>
> They never lock at all?
You need to lock them, they don't lock by themselves.
Rincewind.
Rincewind
> Rincewind wrote:
>> "vague disclaimer" <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
>>> Ah Kennedy. Prompter of more puerile bollocks to spew across the
>>> internet than anyone outside the regular cast.
>>>
>>> Apparently being hot, strong and Not!Tara is a capital offence.
>>
>> Well, being Not!Tara is something she shares with every other human being
>> on the planet... and she is not hot according to my standards.
>>
>> Since the first moment she set foot in Casa Summers she has mostly been
>> very annoying and occasionally rude
>
> Which certainly sets her apart from every other character on the show...
> <snicker>
Ok, I'll rephrase that: she has been more annoying and more frequently rude
than any other human character in the show (including Anya...).
Rincewind.
--
Lines you'll never hear on Buffy:
Anyone in Season 7: Hey, remember Tara?
Rowan Hawthorn
> "Rowan Hawthorn" <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Rincewind wrote:
>>> "vague disclaimer" <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
>>>> Ah Kennedy. Prompter of more puerile bollocks to spew across the
>>>> internet than anyone outside the regular cast.
>>>>
>>>> Apparently being hot, strong and Not!Tara is a capital offence.
>>> Well, being Not!Tara is something she shares with every other human being
>>> on the planet... and she is not hot according to my standards.
>>>
>>> Since the first moment she set foot in Casa Summers she has mostly been
>>> very annoying and occasionally rude
>> Which certainly sets her apart from every other character on the show...
>> <snicker>
>
> Ok, I'll rephrase that: she has been more annoying and more frequently rude
> than any other human character in the show (including Anya...).
While the first may certainly be true from a *subjective* standpoint,
the second certainly isn't even close. At this point, Kennedy has had
about a dozen lines of dialogue; Anya managed to pretty much *average*
that many rude comments *per episode* (and, yeah, that's a little
hyperbole, too...)
Rincewind
Actually, the second is very subjective too: a lot of Anya's comments that
you may consider rude someone else may consider simply brutally honest (and
the same principle applies to Kennedy too).
And anyway IF Kennedy had 10 lines of dialogue and was rude ten times that's
a 100% frequency, IF Anya was rude 10 times per episode and had 20 lines per
episode that's a 50% frequency... (I am obviously inventing numbers here
just to explain my reasoning: PLEASE don't reply with "I have counted Anya's
lines and it's not 20 per episode... ").
Rincewind.
--
Lines you'll never hear on Buffy:
ANYA: I wonder how much I can get for Olaf's hammer on eBay?
Stephen Tempest
>> Most hotels and motels I've been in have doors that are permanently
>> locked from the outside. You leave the room, and the door locks behind
>> you. You always need a key to open it again.
>
>I have never been in a motel. I assumed motel doors worked like the other
>doors we have seen in Sunnydale (Buffy's house, Giles' house and Faith's
>apartment).
Self-locking doors are pretty much the rule in hotel accommodation. If
you lock yourself out, you need to go to reception and ask them to let
you back in. Otherwise, you get people forgetting to lock their door,
and either having their stuff stolen, or getting raped or murdered in
their beds. Much cheaper, from a liability point of view, for the
hotel to fit nightlatches...
Stephen
- who works for a lock manufacturer, so you can trust me on this <g>
Stephen Tempest
>Ok, I'll rephrase that: she has been more annoying and more frequently rude
>than any other human character in the show (including Anya...).
So, am I strange because I find that kinda hot in a woman?
>
>Rincewind.
>--
>Lines you'll never hear on Buffy:
>Anyone in Season 7: Hey, remember Tara?
You're right, you'd never hear those lines - because it's bloody
obvious that she's in Willow's every waking thought for the first half
of the season (until Time does its healing) and nobody would be crass
enough to joke to her about it...
Stephen
Rowan Hawthorn
Don't intend to ('cause I'm not *about* to start *counting* lines. I
think I made my point.)
Stephen Tempest
>Yes, I know. But after the telepathy introduced once or twice way back
>when, it is simply ignored for so long, and not used so many times when
>it would have been useful, that this still feels to me like a cheat.
>YMMV, of course.
It definitely does vary, because I really liked this scene: to me it
was an example of good writing, the kind of thing that makes BtVS
sparkle and rewards the long-term fans.
It's not as if Willow's telepathic powers are something new: I can
think of at least four separate episodes where they were explicitly
shown - 'The Gift', 'Bargaining 1', 'Two To Go' and 'Grave'. That
leaves a gap of just 10 episodes where they weren't on screen - but
for most of those, Willow was never in a situation where telepathy
would have been remotely useful. To me, remembering and referring to
an ability we know she has is a fun little call-back, and sign of
consistency. The alternative would have just been Buffy interrupting
the discussion to say "Will, Xand, can we have a quick word in
private?", or having them meet up in the kitchen afterwards, or
something: so it's hardly a 'cheat' to give us a more interesting
scene instead.
Incidentally, remember this from 'Grave'?
WILLOW: Wow... It's incredible. I mean, really... genuinely wow. I am
so JUICED...Giles... It's like... No mortal person has ever had this
much power. Ever. I actually feel it surging through every cell of my
body... Every molecule... Like I'm connected to everything... It feels
like... I can feel...
She pauses and her smile begins to fade.
WILLOW: ...everyone.
Her expression continues to darken as she winces, getting lost in
confused thoughts.
WILLOW: Oh. Oh my God. All the emotion. All the pain. It's too much.
What I think Willow's experiencing here is pretty much what Buffy
experienced in 'Earshot', except on a global scale: she's suddenly
receptive to the thoughts and emotions of everybody on Earth, and the
experience pretty much drives her mad.[der]
Then we learn in 'Lessons' that they can't take the power away from
her, only teach her to control it. In effect, give her a mystical
volume control, so she's not deafened by the constant roar of thoughts
around her. <g> Perhaps, too, its difficult for her to distinguish
specific voices out of the babble. But Buffy sitting across from her,
looking towards her and thinking in a very loud, clear mental voice
"Willow! Can you hear me?" is enough to get through her filters.
Possibly the fact that Willow is so well attuned to Buffy also helps.
Stephen
Don Sample
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
Maybe to you, but the First is older than dirt. 5 years is like an
eye-blink to it. (And as WGF suggests in another post, it might have
spent the time gathering its forces. Getting enough Bringers that it
can execute its plan.)
> Also, if the line split back then, there _ought_ to be a 3rd slayer,
> who was called when Buffy died the second time. If there wasn't, then
> her first death was not significant in that it did not split the line.
>
> Therefore, it was the Scoobies spell that mucked things up.
What did the Scoobies spell do, other than restore a situation that had
already existed for four years?
Don Sample
vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
> In article <dsample-30B4D3...@news.giganews.com>,
> Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > Gur ohf jnf abjurer arne shyy. Jr fnj nobhg 30 tveyf tb qbja vagb gur
> > Uryyzbhgu. Jr fnj nobhg 20 pbzr bhg ntnva. Bs gur anzrq Fynlrerggrf,
> > bayl Nznaqn qvrq. Bs gur fheivibef, jr bayl fnj gung Eban naq Ebova
> > jrer onqyl vawherq.
>
> Jung'f gur pncnpvgl bs n fgnaqneq HF fpubby ohf?
60 gb 90 crbcyr, qrcraqvat ba gur zbqry.
Elisi
Don Sample wrote:
> What did the Scoobies spell do, other than restore a situation that had
> already existed for four years?
Well that's the question, isn't it? These were Giles' words at the
time:
GILES: Do you have any idea what you've done? The forces you've
harnessed, the lines you've crossed?
WILLOW: I thought you'd be ... impressed, or, or something.
GILES: Oh, don't worry, you've ... made a very deep impression. Of
everyone here ... you were the one I trusted most to respect the forces
of nature.
WILLOW: Are you saying you don't trust me?
GILES: Think what you've done to Buffy.
WILLOW: I brought her back!
GILES: At incredible risk!
WILLOW: Risk? Of what? Making her deader?
GILES: Of killing us all. Unleashing hell on Earth, I mean, shall I go
on?
<snip>
WILLOW: I wasn't lucky. I was amazing. And how would you know? You
weren't even there.
GILES: If I had been, I'd have bloody well stopped you. The magicks you
channeled are more ferocious and primal than anything you can hope to
understand, and you are lucky to be alive, you rank, arrogant amateur!
Their spell was not a straightforward case of first aid (as Xander's in
Prophecy Girl), and it had just the sort of consequences Giles feared,
as far as we can tell.
Malsperanza
> > William George Ferguson wrote:
> > Everyone who knows about it is pretty much in agreement that TF is, very
> > literally, older than dirt.
>
> Older than either the Bang or the Word, supposedly. So whatever your
> creation story is, it's there.
>
> I interpret that to be that TF is what in the
> > Marvel Universe is called a Conceptual Entity (that is, a physical
> > embodiment of a concept), like Death, Oblivion, Infinity, Eternity, Order,
> > Chaos and others. TF is the concept of 'evil' given sentient existence (I
> > was going to say 'given form', but that doesn't work for FE)
>
> Yeah, it's an abstract. Hopefully it'll stay that way, since
> Conceptual Entities get silly when they turn into monsters that can be
> beaten up... it's something BTVS has to be particularly wary of since
> it's been such a metaphor/manifestation-heavy show anyway. (As a video
> game player, one gets a lot of that. One Final Fantasy game seriously
> had a representation of the concept of "giving death power over life"
> as the final enemy.
In religious studies this is a topic of much debate. E.g., is Ogun the
"God of Thunder" or Thunder Personified? Is Satan Evil Personified or
the wielder of the power of evil, which is a separate thing?
Closer to home, this is one of those things that Tolkien did so well:
Sauron the Dark Lord is an entity (something like a god) who took on
physical form and walked the earth at one time.
The First Evil, before the Bang, before the Word, is described with
deliberate vagueness. There's something a little hyperbolic about the
idea that the Slayer is being asked to do battle with Evil Itself. If
she wins, does that mean there's no more evil in the world, or what?
Unexplained (so far).
> > FE, by itself, probably makes posts look like Einstein. It's immortal and
> > invulnerable, it doesn't have any particular reason to have developed
> > intelligence, in and of itself.
It seems, though, to have an intelligence. That is, it's not merely
sentient, but rational--it thinks and reasons and exercises judgment,
of a kind. Its *motives* are not clear--but then, the motives of a
being bent on evil are not likely to be understandable by humans
anyway. And whether it would score as high as Buffy on the SATs is
another question.
> > FE takes on the personality and other traits of the dead people it
> > manifests as. We've seen it repeatedly talk and act in pretty much the
> > exact manner of the current STF, even when that level of mimicry is
> > completely lost on its audience (see Spike and The Mayor). I further
> > extrapolate that how it reasons and how well is also influenced by its
> > current STF, and the more it uses an STF.
> [snip]
> > Now it's carrying out another plan, but its personality and reasoning are
> > going to be influenced by the STFs that it manifests as. Thus far in the
> > season, it has used several different STFs, but Spike and Buffy
> > predominate.
I think this is true when it is appearing to an individual it wants to
influence, and it chooses an STF whose personality or ideas will make
that work better. But I don't know if we can assume that its own plans
have anything to do with the ideas it expresses in its appearances. I
would say that, just as the FE itself is abstract and unembodied, so
too are its plans inchoate and unexpressible in human terms. The
closest we can come is to say that whatever it wants, whatever its
plans, the result for earth will be destruction, suffering, and
possibly annihilation.
As an incorporeal godlike entity, the expression in material acts of an
immaterial idea, it both *is* evil and *does* evil things.
~Mal
Malsperanza
Rincewind wrote:
> "Rowan Hawthorn" <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Rincewind wrote:
> >> "vague disclaimer" <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
> >>> Ah Kennedy. Prompter of more puerile bollocks to spew across the
> >>> internet than anyone outside the regular cast.
> >>>
> >>> Apparently being hot, strong and Not!Tara is a capital offence.
> >>
> >> Well, being Not!Tara is something she shares with every other human being
> >> on the planet... and she is not hot according to my standards.
> >>
> >> Since the first moment she set foot in Casa Summers she has mostly been
> >> very annoying and occasionally rude
> >
> > Which certainly sets her apart from every other character on the show...
> > <snicker>
>
> Ok, I'll rephrase that: she has been more annoying and more frequently rude
> than any other human character in the show (including Anya...).
Anya's rudeness (or brutal honesty) is played for laughs; Kennedy has
no comedic moments that I can think of (at least, not so far). Rudeness
and out-of-placeness and being annoying are "annoying" traits in a very
different way when they are also funny.
Me, I don't mind Kennedy; it's the almost-anonymous wittering whining
giggling ones who tire me out.
~Mal
Scythe Matters
> This starts from the
> beginning, with the arrival of a new character (Rona) who's pretty
> much guaranteed to either die or be rescued at the last minute by Buffy
> from the moment the episode begins. This exists to show Buffy, veteran
> world-saver, taking a new kid under her wing and welcoming her to the
> Hellmouth.
Poor Impata didn't fare quite as well.
> There're plenty of young would-be Slayers in da house. Is this
> episode crawling with characters or what?
Yes, and the season's starting to be awfully crawly as well.
> The beginning of the encounter with Beljoxa's Eye is a pretty
> standard, but still good, example of the BTVS formula. Introduce a
> bizarre over-the-top entity who speaks in intonations, and then give it
> a line like "what, am I talking to myself here?" And as for
> introducing the new plot point regarding why exactly the First is able
> to attack where it hadn't in the past... well, why not? I hear that
> that's the thing about magic: there's always consequences.
> (Always.) Long-term consequences are good.
Several interesting things here:
BELJOXA'S EYE
It cannot be fought, it cannot be killed. The First Evil has been and
always will be. Since before the universe was born, long after there is
nothing else, it will go on.
Here it is again: the First *can't* be killed. It's a hopeless cause, a
no-win scenario. And hey, wait a minute...
BUFFY
So what then? What do you do when you know that? When you know that
maybe you can't help?
It seems that there's some linkage here at last. Buffy's solution in
this episode is the same as her solution in "Help"...
BUFFY
Vampire by vampire. It's the only way I know how.
BUFFY
See? Dust. Just like the rest of 'em. I don't know what's coming next,
but I do know it's gonna be just like this. Hard. Painful. But in the
end it's gonna be us.
...but we've multiple confirmations in the last few episodes that it
isn't going to get the ultimate job done. So what's the answer? I don't
think we're any closer to an answer, but at least Buffy now has a
concrete opponent to lead her to the solution (if there is one).
Point two:
BELJOXA'S EYE
The opportunity has only recently presented itself.
Without clear evidence either way, I take this line (along with ANYA:
You know, it's not like she hasn't died before.) to lend credence to the
most recent Buffy-raising as being the catalyst for current events.
Besides, as you note elsewhere, it has more dramatic potential.
> Then, the battle itself also seems
> like not the most foolproof plan, and they're staking a lot on a
> gamble. In the latter case, though, it works with the story being
> told. Buffy sticks with what she knows when fighting evil, an approach
> that summarizes how she deals with both single combat situations and as
> an overall strategy. Namely, throw everything you can possibly think
> of at it in hopes that something will work, and above all, don't give
> up. It works here with the Übervamp - triumph not through
> outsmarting the enemy so much as out-determined-ing it.
It's interesting that so much is made of the übervamp's power and skill,
because when one steps back one sees that it's hardly the most powerful
thing Buffy's fought. The Master was probably equally powerful, and
that's not even getting into Big Bads like Adam or Glory, who were _way_
beyond this in terms of raw power. I mean, she fought a God to a
standstill. This is just a vampire. A strong one with years of ballet
training, yes, but still just a vampire. Viewed in that context, the
outcome here seems far less doubtful.
It's also interesting to me that, when this episode first aired, I felt
like I'd been seeing Buffy get her ass kicked for weeks. Which was,
technically, true. But viewed in DVD time, it's only one episode and two
days worth of time...not really that bad, considering. It's a
fascinating reminder of how perceptions are changed by viewing method.
Other thoughts...
ANDREW
I'm bored. _Episode I_ bored.
Heh.
BUFFY
Shut up, and get out!
EVE
Or you'll do what?
This is actually a good point. What *is* Buffy going to do about it?
What's to stop the First from just hanging around indefinitely?
Since the First is non-corporeal, I'm surprised they don't initiate a
new policy of regular contact. "Touch your neighbor...in a legal,
non-sleazy way." No more unexpected impersonations.
BUFFY
Something tells me this vampire doesn't need an invite to get into the
house.
Slayer intuition, I know, but this seems to be an unwarranted leap of
logic. Even though it turns out to be true.
The Turok-Han understands English, but obviously he (it?) doesn't listen
very well:
EVE/FIRST
Take 'em all, except for her.
...and then what does it do at the construction site? Goes after Buffy.
Why not rip apart a few potentials first?
BUFFY
Welcome to Thunderdome.
Isn't Buffy a little young for Mad Max references?
> AOQ rating: Good
I agree with that.
Scythe Matters
> Closer to home, this is one of those things that Tolkien did so well:
> Sauron the Dark Lord is an entity (something like a god) who took on
> physical form and walked the earth at one time.
And even closer to home, an exploration of the person and their
relationship to their power has been front and center in this series for
a while now. It goes back to Faith and Angel/Angelus, but it's also been
a topic for Willow, Spike, Anya, and now finally Buffy. Is the power a
separate entity, or is the person the power (or the power the person)?
Possibly the most interesting thing about this season is that it's
setting up one abstraction against another. Of course, that very battle
of abstractions is the thing most fraught with the potential for
narrative flailing.
Don Sample
Scythe Matters <sp...@spam.spam> wrote:
> The Turok-Han understands English, but obviously he (it?) doesn't listen
> very well:
>
> EVE/FIRST
> Take 'em all, except for her.
>
> ...and then what does it do at the construction site? Goes after Buffy.
> Why not rip apart a few potentials first?
It doesn't so much go after Buffy as Buffy goes after it.
Scythe Matters
> It doesn't so much go after Buffy as Buffy goes after it.
She does go after it, but it also stops its pursuit of the potentials
and heads for her. With its speed, it could easily take out several
potentials before Buffy could even reach it.
hayes62
Scythe Matters wrote:
> BUFFY
> Something tells me this vampire doesn't need an invite to get into the
> house.
>
> Slayer intuition, I know, but this seems to be an unwarranted leap of
> logic. Even though it turns out to be true.
>
Not so much. She's already suffered the consequences of assuming stakes
would work, and that should make her wary about assuming invitations
are necessary.
> The Turok-Han understands English, but obviously he (it?) doesn't listen
> very well:
>
> EVE/FIRST
> Take 'em all, except for her.
>
> ...and then what does it do at the construction site? Goes after Buffy.
> Why not rip apart a few potentials first?
>
The problem with delagating important tasks to mindless killing
machines. Buffy called it out and it just couldn't resist.
William George Ferguson
tomys des anges <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> show's disadvantage. For example, upon the revelation that the real
>> Eve is dead, the typical viewer's reaction will be less "holy shit,
>> Eve is the First!" and more "uh, which one was Eve again?" I was
>> definitely getting worried that our heroes would get lost in the
>
>also fe likes to talk big about being biggest baddest evil
>of being omniscient and omnipresent
>but we have no independent witness of that
>
>for example did fe already know about faith
>or did it just learn there was another slayer at this?
Morphy has pretty clearly been shown to know what its avatars (STFs) know.
Since it's been Mayor STF, it would know about Faith.
We haven't seen any real evidence that it is omniscient or omnipresent,
rather the reverse. What we have seen is that it can know anything a
person who died knew, by manifesting as that person, that it can go
anywhere and see and hear what is going on (it's not clear whether it has
to manifest an STF to do that, but even if it did, it could manifest and
stay invisible to everyone there, as it does with Buffy STF at
Thunderdome). We've seen it apparently manifest at more than one place at
the same time, but it can't really be constantly aware of everything
everwhere, or why is it bothering with petty plans.
One unanswered question is whether there is a knowledge cut-off on its
STFs, that is, do they keep on knowing what the original experiences, in
the case of vampires and Buffy. If so, any plan that Buffy comes up with
will be known by the First the next time it does Buffy STF.
Another point, people, even back in the day, questioned what Firsty hoped
to accomplish by torturing Spike. Not every single thing Morphy does will
necessarily be in service to a single plan. FE is the concept of evil
personified, it's going to do evil things. Given the choice of doing a
less evil thing and a more evil thing, it will likely do the more evil
thing, even if it isn't as effective at accomplishing the current plan.
That's why it would spend extra time trying to push Angel into being evil,
push Spike into being evil, even push Buffy into being evil, because that's
more satisfying than just 'winning'.
So when you see Morphy do something that causes pain and suffering, but
doesn't seem to further its 'plan', just keep in mind Giles' response when
Willow told him that sarcasm accomplishes nothing.
--
... and my sister is a vampire slayer, her best friend is a witch who
went bonkers and tried to destroy the world, um, I actually used to be
a little ball of energy until about two years ago when some monks
changed the past and made me Buffy's sister and for some reason, a big
klepto. My best friends are Leticia Jones, who moved to San Diego
because this town is evil, and a floppy eared demon named Clem.
(Dawn's fantasy of her intro speech in "Lessons", from the shooting script)