AOQ Review 6-17: "Entropy"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Six, Episode 17: "Entropy"
(or "Keep in mind that TV has been in a continuous state of decline
for the past 30 years or so. Every show just gets worse and worse
until they collapse under the weight of their own failure. Even if a
show used to be good, it sucks now. It's sucked for years.")
Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
Director: James A. Contner
And here's another title that I love. Anyway, given that we've
yammered about "soap opera" plots in the past, I think this is as
close to that as BTVS has ever gotten to what I imagine fits that
fairly meaningless phrase. What I mean is that "Entropy" is almost
all about relationship angst from top to bottom, more so than probably
any other episode so far. It sweeps the whole cast along in that as it
plays out.
I'm always less caught up in the nature of the tale than in how
it's told. So is "Entropy" a success? Yes and no. (Talk about
your meaningless phrases...) On the whole I find that I generally
appreciate the intention and the end point of each scene, but the way
they play out is often spotty. Take Xander's attempt to reconcile
with Anya. Repetitious, much? "I love you" count - four in
about a minute, and I think at least two are "so much." As often
happens, the show is seemingly protected from too much criticism by the
fact that Xander himself is confused, mind going around in circles,
unable to properly articulate things, and so on. To which I respond: I
viewer, you TV show. Entertain me. That leads into the first (and
better) of two fade-to-commercial misdirects this week, in which Anya
goes into demon-face and wishes Xander out of existence. It's a good
visceral impact - it doesn't hold up after a quick moment of
thinking about how Justice Demons work, but by the time once has taken
the necessary moment, the scene has had its effect.
As it turns out, one unsurprisingly can't grant one's own wish.
Okay, so why didn't Anya stay human long enough to have Hallie or
D'Hoffryn or someone respond to a wish about Xander, and only then
reclaim her position? Isn't having one's vengeance part of the
process of becoming a Justice Demon in the first place (just ask Olaf)?
When I think about this episode, I think the part that summarizes it
best is Anya trying to get Xander's female friends to turn on him,
and their attempts to not take sides in a situation where there's
plenty of blame to go around (and they know that most of it should get
directed at the writers. Or maybe I'm just projecting). This
sequence takes its time playing out, with three cross-cut
conversations, all extended. Again, I see where they're going, but
why so much time on this? There are a few jokes, but it's not funny
enough as a whole to be a comedy bit, and it soon becomes clear that
Xander's in no danger, so there's not much drama. Maybe it's
just meant to let us know exactly how everyone's reacting? In any
case, it's not bad at all, but it is quite long. As are all her
scenes with Halfrek, and her continual waiting-for-a-wish moments which
pretty much last all show.
Moving on for the moment to the other stories, Buffy and Spike get to
interact a lot. Just going to quickly note that Spike still seems to
think, and is probably right, that they have something going on despite
having theoretically broken up four episodes ago. Buffy seems almost
annoyed at the fact that even "Normal Again" couldn't get anyone
to hate her or not forgive her. There's more repetition, this time
basically reenacting the end of "As You Were," but it's more
concise and perhaps better for it. Spike is at his most emotionally
open, and the response is a simultaneous acknowledgement and rejection.
There are essays that could be written, although the theme is pretty
explicit in the show itself, about the concept of "real"-ness in
the entire B/S arc, going back at least to "Intervention." I
appreciate how, like Xander, she thinks she's doing the right thing
in the long run, preventing long-term anguish, but there's no way to
stop the other person from taking it in the worst way possible, and
generally feeling like their world is falling apart. Spike and Anya
eventually find another thing they have in common, and this time it,
well, brings them together in a slow, lingering string of scenes. Yet
again, it kinda takes forever. On the plus side, its conclusion is
entirely understandable but doesn't seem inevitable until the very
end. I like the silent separation afterward too.
All this is discovered in a pretty plot-devicey way thanks to the
cameras the Three Amigos have installed everywhere - the geeks
aren't too interesting this week, and seem to exist only to move the
story along. Also, the logistics - why does Willow wait so long to
tell the Summerses that Xander is gone, except that the script requires
a few minutes to give them a quiet moment together? The Buffy/Dawn
scenes, both before and after don't resonate much for me, although
the latter one is something that needed to happen, and at least we get
Dawn back in sorta-mature mode instead of annoying mode, even without
people necessarily treating her better. "I kinda didn't wanna admit
it to myself." "I get that." She's more explicit than usual
(during the pancake scene) about what she'd really like, what's
been bothering her in particular.
Then there's the final bit outside the Magic Box, and here's where
I think the episode gets closest to real successful relationship angst.
Xander and Anya's strong sentiment comes through in some
well-written dialogue. And then Spike lashes out as he best can, with
one simple sentence at the right cross-purpose with what's going on,
right on the heels of the sincere statement that "I look at you, and
I feel sick." Also, kudos to Marsters for keeping the anger and the
sadness balanced in his delivery. Compared to something like "The
Yoko Factor," this feels much more natural: it doesn't lead to a
dumb shouting match, but has the potential to go deeper, ensure that
things will always be a little different now. And of course, Xander
runs away at the end after all...
This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
- Anya's frustration with the W/T lack of anti-male sentiment
- "Drusilla was always straightforward. Didn't have a single
buggering clue about what was going on in front of her, but she was
straight about it"
- "He is *so cool*... And, I mean, the girl is hot too"
Amidst all this sex and pain, "Entropy"'s first act begins with
Willow and Tara, and the show ends with them too. The first part of
the opening scene is a highlight as the latter slightly amusedly
brushes away Willow's worries from "Normal Again." "You rushed
off before I could, you know, explain." But then the show surprises
me by providing a big, sweeping, "up" moment at the end as they
throw caution and the "right" way to overcome their issues to the
wind. I'm unclear on whether they're trying for some obscure
parallel between this reconciliation and the separations it's
surrounded by, or are just using it as a vivid contrast. But in any
case, it stands out.
Not quite a predication per se, but the most obvious way for things to
go now, from my thinking, would be for Tara to now be a source of
vulnerability for Willlow: she's put in some kind of danger, and
saving her would require going magic-crazy. Well, time will tell, but
in the meantime, can we all unite in thanking UPN for not interfering
with the closing moments?
So...
One-sentence summary: Partially successful.
AOQ rating: Decent
[Season Six so far:
1) "Bargaining" - Decent
2) "After Life" - Good
3) "Flooded" - Decent
4) "Life Serial" - Good
5) "All The Way" - Good
6) "Once More, With Feeling" - Excellent
7) "Tabula Rasa" - Good
8) "Smashed" - Decent
9) "Wrecked" - Good
10) "Gone" - Decent
11) "Doublemeat Palace" - Decent
12) "Dead Things" - Good
13) "Older And Far Away" - Good
14) "As You Were" - Decent
15) "Hell's Bells" - Weak
16) "Normal Again" - Excellent
17) "Entropy" - Decent]
Elisi
That giant crashing sound you just heard? Was Buffy falling off
Xander's pedestal.
I love that scene *so* much, even though the angst flows thick and wide
- and "It's good enough for Buffy!" was the line that stuck out most
from S6, back when I first watched it. :) There's another point (that
you probably caught but didn't comment on) - Anya is herself now a
'soulless, evil thing', the sort of thing that 'makes Xander sick'. And
he can't blame anyone except himself... not that he knows it yet, of
course. But damn, that's going to be a blow!
What else - I know you think a lot of the Buffy/Dawn and Buffy/Spike
scenes are rehashes, but we see her re-connecting with Dawn much better
than recently, and she also seems to be getting through to Spike much
more clearly (because of 'Normal Again'). As you pointed out, the word
'real' is the clincher (and I might have written an essay once...),
especially since it seems to undercut what she said in 'Intervention'.
And I love the way Tara says "Can we just skip it? Can you just be
kissing me now?"
Easily a 'Good' for me.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> That giant crashing sound you just heard? Was Buffy falling off
> Xander's pedestal.
Indeed. The hero-worship, of course, does a lot to shape their
interactions in "Seeing Red," which I just watched.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> "Seeing Red," which I just watched.
Well, watched in the very recent past. "Just watched" isn't quite
literally true, and I don't want to spread dishonesty worldwide.
-AOQ
~seriously should not be allowed to post so late at night~
Elisi
Oh indeed. Is Buffy The Slayer, who also is Xander's friend, or
Xander's friend, who is also the Slayer?
Anyway, looking forward to your next review _very_ much!
Elisi
Hey it's 9 in the morning over here! :) Sleep well.
Ken from Chicago
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1156406793.3...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Too late. Off to the Torment Rack Of Truth for you, mister! How DARE you
sully the goodly name of ATBVS?!!
-- Ken from Chicago (defender of the ATBVS's rep)
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 17: "Entropy"
to err is human to forgive divine
im thinking this whole soul thing is about empathy
your soul is that part of you that lets you look at another human
and feel what they feel as if it were you
when another person is in pain and you make the connection
then you feel their pain
and since pain is unpleasant you wish to comfort them
as you would wish to be comforted
and from that comes morality
you look at another person who has failed
and you know you yourself have failed
and from that comes forgiveness
> your meaningless phrases...) On the whole I find that I generally
> appreciate the intention and the end point of each scene, but the way
> they play out is often spotty. Take Xander's attempt to reconcile
> with Anya. Repetitious, much? "I love you" count - four in
xander is introduced listening to country music
the music of pain and suffering as he described in high school
and how the singers pain resonates with his own
xander failed as an adult
as he himself realizes he lacked the maturity and self awareness
to deal with his marriage issues before the fact
so xander failed as an adult but people fail to be adults all the time
hopefully they learn something from it and grow up a little
and continue to be better at over time
spikes story has been compared to clockwork orange
the essence of that story is the question - can you become moral by acting moral
(burgess actually has the prison chaplain explicitly asking this)
and burgess conclusion is no - morality comes from something else
anyas story is also a clockwork orange
for the past few years she has been forced into a human body
living a human life expected to act with human morality and empathy
as others pointed out anya has never expressed guilt for her demon ways
and even seems to yearn for them
and note how rarely she feels for anyone else unless she herself is in pain
she had no empathy for her victims past
and little for her human companions present
anya failed as a human
and now she is no longer human
(continually over the past few years she has predicted the relation would failed
and congratulations her predictions finally came tryue
she should be happy)
i find anyas story so sad
not for the wedding fiasco (fiascos come and go)
but for total inability to feel anything with or for xander
her failure and loss of humanity
> When I think about this episode, I think the part that summarizes it
> best is Anya trying to get Xander's female friends to turn on him,
> and their attempts to not take sides in a situation where there's
> plenty of blame to go around (and they know that most of it should get
the women are humans and they are able to empathize with xander and with anya
evem though themselves suffered little in the wedding
they want desperately to relieve the pain of anya and xander
adn again and again anya is told but cannot understand
they want to relieve pain in other people not cause it
tara and willow rather than expressing disgust also try to understand
how xander could be excited by some girl on girl action
even though tara possibly has never had a relation with a man
(of course willows bi)
while halfrek is egging anyanka on
i dont see halfrek feeling any more empathy for anyanka
then when halfrek trapped anya in the house in older and faraway
halfrek like all vengeance demons is merely looking for excuse
to inflict pain and chaos on the mere mortals
> Moving on for the moment to the other stories, Buffy and Spike get to
> interact a lot. Just going to quickly note that Spike still seems to
> think, and is probably right, that they have something going on despite
spike is the other clockwork orange
the chip has forced him to act morally
but has that made any difference to his essential nature?
can he really understand what buffy feels or what other humans feel?
or is the only pain he feels his own?
feeling pain isnt having a soul - its merely a survival mechanism of many animals
feeling the pain of others - thats something else
buffy keeps refering to spike as dead thing she cannot love
she detects no soul or empathy in him
> having theoretically broken up four episodes ago. Buffy seems almost
> annoyed at the fact that even "Normal Again" couldn't get anyone
> to hate her or not forgive her. There's more repetition, this time
her other friends are human
and while they should be annoyed at being almost murdered
anger passes in time
and their empathy for buffys plight can resume
> appreciate how, like Xander, she thinks she's doing the right thing
> in the long run, preventing long-term anguish, but there's no way to
> stop the other person from taking it in the worst way possible, and
buffy says sorry to a dead soulless spike
buffy and xander feel the anguish they are inflicting
even if they believe the anguish is something that must be gotten through
to get to a better place
anya feels no anguish for what she inflicts
does spike feel buffys pain or only his own?
> generally feeling like their world is falling apart. Spike and Anya
> eventually find another thing they have in common, and this time it,
> well, brings them together in a slow, lingering string of scenes. Yet
> again, it kinda takes forever. On the plus side, its conclusion is
> entirely understandable but doesn't seem inevitable until the very
xander and anya wallow in each others pain
this is larval empathy
where you recognize your pain in another and you want to relieve it
but the imago stage of empathy is when even in your joy
you can look at another in pain and feel it
> end. I like the silent separation afterward too.
anya is finally about to get her wish and she stops spike
finally anya appears to realize that she herself has faults
and that she herself needs a little forgiving
so maybe theres hope for her yet
> All this is discovered in a pretty plot-devicey way thanks to the
> cameras the Three Amigos have installed everywhere - the geeks
> aren't too interesting this week, and seem to exist only to move the
i guess its just my darn librul fuzzy wuzzy morality
but i find warrens story another sad one
i think as late as -i was made to you- if he had met a sympathetic woman
instead of katrina and gotten beyond his childhood trauma
he couldve been a contender
instead he has rotted from within
amd by the time of this story warren is human in body only
another person who failed to be human
he feels nothing for the woman he killed
and he feels less and less every episode except for what directly effects him
jonathon has failed as an adult
unlike xander he never got out of the basement
but he continues to feel guilt and empathy
so he has not failed as a human
yet
gur zbzrag jura vg punatrf sbe naqerj vf jura ohssl qnatyrf uvz bire gur frny
naq ur srryf gur rzbgvbaf wbanguba sryg nf naqerj zheqrerq uvz
naq ol znxvat gung pbaarpgvba jvgu wbanguba
naqerj vf noyr gb orpbzr n uhzna orvat
naq svanyyl svaqf n cynpr va gur snzvyl bs ohssl
> story along. Also, the logistics - why does Willow wait so long to
> tell the Summerses that Xander is gone, except that the script requires
(or willow didnt know where they were and first searched upstairs)
(i suppose only in sunnydale could someone storm down the street
with big honking axe and nobody calls the police)
> a few minutes to give them a quiet moment together? The Buffy/Dawn
> scenes, both before and after don't resonate much for me, although
> the latter one is something that needed to happen, and at least we get
the conversation during the unshopping trip is about guilt and forgiveness
dawn is a child and not expected to get it right
she has to fail as a child to learn how to fail as an adult
buffy is angry with dawn but has gotten beyond her anger
and concentrate on helping dawn learn from this
and instead of inflicting pain on top of pain on top of pain
then when dawn finds about spike she holds a knife she can stick in buffys gut
in return for all the moralizing she has to endure
but instead she concentrates on empathy and understanding
(again as a hcild she isnt expected to fully understand)
instead of inflicting more pain
> Dawn back in sorta-mature mode instead of annoying mode, even without
i like competent-dawn
its whiny-dawn i dont want to see again
> dumb shouting match, but has the potential to go deeper, ensure that
> things will always be a little different now. And of course, Xander
> runs away at the end after all...
at that moment xander is too angry to empathize
thats okay since anger is also human and even divine
xander is basically at the same state anya was at the end of hells belles
anyas anger triggered her final failure as a human
will xanders anger pass and let him reconnect with buffy
or will he also fail as a human?
considering all the people spike has killed and tortured
i dont have a problem with xander beatiing on him or even destroying spike
but its better to have buffy stop him at the moment
so that he doesnt do it in the heat of anger
> Amidst all this sex and pain, "Entropy"'s first act begins with
> Willow and Tara, and the show ends with them too. The first part of
> the opening scene is a highlight as the latter slightly amusedly
> brushes away Willow's worries from "Normal Again." "You rushed
note that tara starts by asking willows neck injury
tara doesnt want willow to hurt
she never wanted that
she didnt want willow to stop magic
what tara wanted was for willow to grow up
and realize people have their own feelings
and she wanted willow to understand she couldnt
reduce other people to her soulless sockpuppets
it appears willow has learned that lesson
and tara feels safe resuming intimacy with willow
this willow is more likely to feel taras pain
and be unwilling to make tara feel pain again
> wind. I'm unclear on whether they're trying for some obscure
> parallel between this reconciliation and the separations it's
> surrounded by, or are just using it as a vivid contrast. But in any
> case, it stands out.
willow learned from her failure as an adult
and tara recognized that
willow (and every other human) will likely fail again
but to err is human
to forgive divine
and to avenge demonic
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
its the end of season where all the episodes rush into one another
Apteryx
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> Okay, so why didn't Anya stay human long enough to have Hallie or
> D'Hoffryn or someone respond to a wish about Xander, and only then
> reclaim her position? Isn't having one's vengeance part of the
> process of becoming a Justice Demon in the first place (just ask Olaf)?
Well, at least sometimes. But apparently not necessarily. Maybe
re-demonising Anya without reminding her to do that first was
D'Hoffryn's revenge on Anya for inviting him to that wedding :)
> When I think about this episode, I think the part that summarizes it
> best is Anya trying to get Xander's female friends to turn on him,
> and their attempts to not take sides in a situation where there's
> plenty of blame to go around (and they know that most of it should get
> directed at the writers. Or maybe I'm just projecting). This
> sequence takes its time playing out, with three cross-cut
> conversations, all extended. Again, I see where they're going, but
> why so much time on this? There are a few jokes, but it's not funny
> enough as a whole to be a comedy bit, and it soon becomes clear that
> Xander's in no danger, so there's not much drama. Maybe it's
> just meant to let us know exactly how everyone's reacting?
I think a little from column A, a little from column B. It's not
rib-splitting funny, but Anya trying to be vindictive and meeting
nothing but sweet reason everywhere is at least smileworthy.
> Moving on for the moment to the other stories, Buffy and Spike get to
> interact a lot. Just going to quickly note that Spike still seems to
> think, and is probably right, that they have something going on despite
> having theoretically broken up four episodes ago. Buffy seems almost
> annoyed at the fact that even "Normal Again" couldn't get anyone
> to hate her or not forgive her.
And the fact that they have slept together is so shocking that even the
vampire at the grraveyard is shocked to hear it :)
>
> Then there's the final bit outside the Magic Box, and here's where
> I think the episode gets closest to real successful relationship angst.
> Xander and Anya's strong sentiment comes through in some
> well-written dialogue. And then Spike lashes out as he best can, with
> one simple sentence at the right cross-purpose with what's going on,
> right on the heels of the sincere statement that "I look at you, and
> I feel sick." Also, kudos to Marsters for keeping the anger and the
> sadness balanced in his delivery.
All the characters play that scene well.
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Partially successful.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
I like it better than that. Sex, pain, and a little humour, what's
going to be wrong with that. For me its a solid Good. It's my 52nd
favourite, 3rd best in season 6. Although that 3rd place is largely by
default, this a long way behind NA in 2nd place (and season 3 has 13
episodes better than this).
Apteryx
Stephen Tempest
>As it turns out, one unsurprisingly can't grant one's own wish.
>Okay, so why didn't Anya stay human long enough to have Hallie or
>D'Hoffryn or someone respond to a wish about Xander, and only then
>reclaim her position? Isn't having one's vengeance part of the
>process of becoming a Justice Demon in the first place (just ask Olaf)?
You're assuming that D'Hoffryn was doing Anya a favour by coming to
her at her moment of deepest despair and turning her back into a
Vengeance Demon?
His entire aim in life is to create destruction and chaos for the
pleasure of the Lower Beings. Presumably what he did to Anya will
serve this purpose... one way or the other. [insert sinister laugh
here]
>When I think about this episode, I think the part that summarizes it
>best is Anya trying to get Xander's female friends to turn on him,
>and their attempts to not take sides in a situation where there's
>plenty of blame to go around (and they know that most of it should get
>directed at the writers. Or maybe I'm just projecting). This
>sequence takes its time playing out, with three cross-cut
>conversations, all extended. Again, I see where they're going, but
>why so much time on this? There are a few jokes, but it's not funny
>enough as a whole to be a comedy bit, and it soon becomes clear that
>Xander's in no danger, so there's not much drama. Maybe it's
>just meant to let us know exactly how everyone's reacting? In any
>case, it's not bad at all, but it is quite long. As are all her
>scenes with Halfrek, and her continual waiting-for-a-wish moments which
>pretty much last all show.
I loved these sequences. Dawn's clearly learned an important life
lesson... and Anya's "Gimme a for-instance?" was funny. Willow and
Tara's understanding and lack of concern about Xander's (alleged)
Heterosexual-Male-Undue-Fascination-With-Lesbians was quite sweet too,
although I think Willow's been reading too much porn!spam if she can
use the phrase "hot girl-on-girl action" with a straight face.
>All this is discovered in a pretty plot-devicey way thanks to the
>cameras the Three Amigos have installed everywhere - the geeks
>aren't too interesting this week, and seem to exist only to move the
>story along.
Although their internal dynamics are clearly building up to a crisis,
pretty soon now...
And the episode ends with Tara quoting from WB Yeats...
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Nope, *that's* not ominous at all...
Stephen
- Surely some revelation is at hand?
Rincewind
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 17: "Entropy"
> (or "Keep in mind that TV has been in a continuous state of decline
> for the past 30 years or so. Every show just gets worse and worse
> until they collapse under the weight of their own failure. Even if a
> show used to be good, it sucks now. It's sucked for years.")
Heehee.
> I'm always less caught up in the nature of the tale than in how
> it's told. So is "Entropy" a success? Yes and no. (Talk about
> your meaningless phrases...) On the whole I find that I generally
> appreciate the intention and the end point of each scene, but the way
> they play out is often spotty. Take Xander's attempt to reconcile
> with Anya. Repetitious, much? "I love you" count - four in
> about a minute, and I think at least two are "so much." As often
> happens, the show is seemingly protected from too much criticism by the
> fact that Xander himself is confused, mind going around in circles,
> unable to properly articulate things, and so on. To which I respond: I
> viewer, you TV show. Entertain me.
I couldn't have said it better.
> When I think about this episode, I think the part that summarizes it
> best is Anya trying to get Xander's female friends to turn on him,
> and their attempts to not take sides in a situation where there's
> plenty of blame to go around (and they know that most of it should get
> directed at the writers. Or maybe I'm just projecting). This
> sequence takes its time playing out, with three cross-cut
> conversations, all extended. Again, I see where they're going, but
> why so much time on this? There are a few jokes, but it's not funny
> enough as a whole to be a comedy bit, and it soon becomes clear that
> Xander's in no danger, so there's not much drama. Maybe it's
> just meant to let us know exactly how everyone's reacting? In any
> case, it's not bad at all, but it is quite long.
But Willow's "We're more centered around the. girl-on-girl action." is
priceless.
I also liked the Dawn parts a lot: when the writers stop writing her like
she is 12 years old she can be very funny (and occasionally adorable).
> Amidst all this sex and pain, "Entropy"'s first act begins with
> Willow and Tara, and the show ends with them too. The first part of
> the opening scene is a highlight as the latter slightly amusedly
> brushes away Willow's worries from "Normal Again." "You rushed
> off before I could, you know, explain." But then the show surprises
> me by providing a big, sweeping, "up" moment at the end as they
> throw caution and the "right" way to overcome their issues to the
> wind. I'm unclear on whether they're trying for some obscure
> parallel between this reconciliation and the separations it's
> surrounded by, or are just using it as a vivid contrast. But in any
> case, it stands out.
The best scene of the episode for me.
> ... Well, time will tell, but
> in the meantime, can we all unite in thanking UPN for not interfering
> with the closing moments?
THANKS UPN!!!
Rincewind.
--
Lines you'll never hear on Buffy:
TARA (after being shot by Warren): Is it because I'm a lesbian?
RILEY (realizing Buffy doesn't love him): Is it because I'm a lesbian?
BUFFY (after being stood up by Willow in Dead Man's Party): Is it because
I'm a lesbian?
WILLOW: Yeah. I'm sorry, Buffy, that stuff just creeps me out.
BUFFY: Oh. Can we still hug?
WILLOW: Um, okay.
(They hug)
WILLOW: Hands! Hands in new places!
BUFFY: *smirks*
Patrick MM
>
> I like it better than that. Sex, pain, and a little humour, what's
> going to be wrong with that. For me its a solid Good. It's my 52nd
> favourite, 3rd best in season 6. Although that 3rd place is largely by
> default, this a long way behind NA in 2nd place (and season 3 has 13
> episodes better than this).
>
This is one of my favorites and encompasses a lot of what's great about
season six, the way everything is just spiralling out of control,
culminating in the events of the next episode. It's 19th best overall, 3rd
best in season six for me.
patrick
William George Ferguson
wrote:
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>
>
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Six, Episode 17: "Entropy"
>(or "Keep in mind that TV has been in a continuous state of decline
>for the past 30 years or so. Every show just gets worse and worse
>until they collapse under the weight of their own failure. Even if a
>show used to be good, it sucks now. It's sucked for years.")
>Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
>Director: James A. Contner
>
>And here's another title that I love. Anyway, given that we've
>yammered about "soap opera" plots in the past, I think this is as
>close to that as BTVS has ever gotten to what I imagine fits that
>fairly meaningless phrase. What I mean is that "Entropy" is almost
>all about relationship angst from top to bottom, more so than probably
>any other episode so far. It sweeps the whole cast along in that as it
>plays out.
Well, Dawn not so much (there's relationship, but not a lot of angst with
her)
>As it turns out, one unsurprisingly can't grant one's own wish.
>Okay, so why didn't Anya stay human long enough to have Hallie or
>D'Hoffryn or someone respond to a wish about Xander, and only then
>reclaim her position? Isn't having one's vengeance part of the
>process of becoming a Justice Demon in the first place (just ask Olaf)?
As others have said, it's pretty clear that Vengeance Demons aren't really
about vengeance (or justice), they're about causing pain and anguish. In
the majority of results we've seen the results of the Wish has sucked just
as much for the wisher as for the target (exactly how long did it take
Cordelia to be killed as the result of her wish, and exactly how bad did
that make Anyanka feel?). Why should D'Hoffryn be different?
>When I think about this episode, I think the part that summarizes it
>best is Anya trying to get Xander's female friends to turn on him,
>and their attempts to not take sides in a situation where there's
>plenty of blame to go around (and they know that most of it should get
>directed at the writers. Or maybe I'm just projecting). This
>sequence takes its time playing out, with three cross-cut
>conversations, all extended. Again, I see where they're going, but
>why so much time on this? There are a few jokes, but it's not funny
>enough as a whole to be a comedy bit, and it soon becomes clear that
>Xander's in no danger, so there's not much drama. Maybe it's
>just meant to let us know exactly how everyone's reacting? In any
>case, it's not bad at all, but it is quite long.
The scenes could have been tightened up considerably, to good effect. Show
the initial set-up (Anya approaching them), show one and only one all the
way through, then montage the punchline endings of the others.
> There are essays that could be written, although the theme is pretty
>explicit in the show itself, about the concept of "real"-ness in
>the entire B/S arc, going back at least to "Intervention." I
>appreciate how, like Xander, she thinks she's doing the right thing
>in the long run, preventing long-term anguish, but there's no way to
>stop the other person from taking it in the worst way possible, and
>generally feeling like their world is falling apart. Spike and Anya
>eventually find another thing they have in common, a
Xander said it best, after getting Buffy's polite turn-down all the way
back in Prophecy Girl. "On a scale of one to ten, it sucked."
>All this is discovered in a pretty plot-devicey way thanks to the
>cameras the Three Amigos have installed everywhere - the geeks
>aren't too interesting this week, and seem to exist only to move the
>story along.
Well, also to set up the split between Jonathan and Warren and his cuddle
buddy. Oh, and to make it clear that Andrew is the gayest gayly gay guy
that still in the closet.
>
>This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
>- Anya's frustration with the W/T lack of anti-male sentiment
>- "Drusilla was always straightforward. Didn't have a single
>buggering clue about what was going on in front of her, but she was
>straight about it"
>- "He is *so cool*... And, I mean, the girl is hot too"
"You guys went out patrolling every night when you were my age."
"Yes, but, technically, you're one-and-a-half."
>Not quite a predication per se, but the most obvious way for things to
>go now, from my thinking, would be for Tara to now be a source of
>vulnerability for Willlow: she's put in some kind of danger, and
>saving her would require going magic-crazy.
Well, they are rapturously happy, and this is a Joss Whedon show. Not a
good combination.
>Well, time will tell, but
>in the meantime, can we all unite in thanking UPN for not interfering
>with the closing moments?
Of course, you've said you've seen Seeing Red by now, with the naked bad
scene (are Alyson Hannigan and Amber Benson the untannest girls there's
ever been?).
Next up, the start of the season finale (or, if Buffy season finales get
any longer, they'll start with the season premiere).
--
"Timothy Dalton should get an Oscar and
beat Sean Connery over the head with it!"
-The Other Guy (you know, Tucker's brother)
Elisi
William George Ferguson wrote:
> >Spike and Anya
> >eventually find another thing they have in common, a
>
> Xander said it best, after getting Buffy's polite turn-down all the way
> back in Prophecy Girl. "On a scale of one to ten, it sucked."
Don't you know that Andrew acts as truth teller?
ANDREW: (riveted) He is so cool. (glances at the others,
self-consciously) And, I mean, the girl is hot too.
> Next up, the start of the season finale (or, if Buffy season finales get
> any longer, they'll start with the season premiere).
Hey - have you got a problem with S7?
Rowan Hawthorn
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 17: "Entropy"
> (or "Keep in mind that TV has been in a continuous state of decline
> for the past 30 years or so. Every show just gets worse and worse
> until they collapse under the weight of their own failure. Even if a
> show used to be good, it sucks now. It's sucked for years.")
> Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> Director: James A. Contner
>
>
> best is Anya trying to get Xander's female friends to turn on him,
> and their attempts to not take sides in a situation where there's
> plenty of blame to go around (and they know that most of it should get
> directed at the writers. Or maybe I'm just projecting). This
> sequence takes its time playing out, with three cross-cut
> conversations, all extended. Again, I see where they're going, but
> why so much time on this? There are a few jokes, but it's not funny
> enough as a whole to be a comedy bit,
Oh, come on - Willow's "girl-on-girl action" talk and her mystified,
"Well, Xander is a guy so... it’s kinda not the surprise that he
likes to watch... girls... *why* are we talking about this?"
> Then there's the final bit outside the Magic Box, and here's where
> I think the episode gets closest to real successful relationship angst.
> Xander and Anya's strong sentiment comes through in some
> well-written dialogue. And then Spike lashes out as he best can, with
> one simple sentence at the right cross-purpose with what's going on,
> right on the heels of the sincere statement that "I look at you, and
> I feel sick." Also, kudos to Marsters for keeping the anger and the
> sadness balanced in his delivery. Compared to something like "The
> Yoko Factor," this feels much more natural: it doesn't lead to a
> dumb shouting match, but has the potential to go deeper, ensure that
> things will always be a little different now. And of course, Xander
> runs away at the end after all...
All four of the actors were hitting on all cylinders in this scene.
> Amidst all this sex and pain, "Entropy"'s first act begins with
> Willow and Tara, and the show ends with them too. The first part of
> the opening scene is a highlight as the latter slightly amusedly
> brushes away Willow's worries from "Normal Again." "You rushed
> off before I could, you know, explain." But then the show surprises
> me by providing a big, sweeping, "up" moment at the end as they
> throw caution and the "right" way to overcome their issues to the
> wind. I'm unclear on whether they're trying for some obscure
> parallel between this reconciliation and the separations it's
> surrounded by, or are just using it as a vivid contrast. But in any
> case, it stands out.
>
> Not quite a predication per se, but the most obvious way for things to
> go now, from my thinking, would be for Tara to now be a source of
> vulnerability for Willlow: she's put in some kind of danger, and
> saving her would require going magic-crazy. Well, time will tell, but
> in the meantime, can we all unite in thanking UPN for not interfering
> with the closing moments?
I hate to say it, because I like W&T and was hoping they'd patch things
up, but IMO, the final clinch was one of the *very* few scenes that AH &
AB didn't quite sell. Not Tara's lead-in speech; I think AB hit Tara's
reluctant longing and the decision to go against her better judgment
spot on. Not Willow's nervousness as to exactly *what* Tara was leading
up to; AH projects her obvious fear as to, "Now what have I done wrong?
Did I try to move too quickly?"
But the rush together and the desperate, hungry kiss just didn't ring
true, maybe because it looks *too* rushed and desperate (also, I suspect
Amber was about to crack up at one point there...)
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
>
Overall, I put this one a *little* higher than that. Just a couple of
minor tweaks...
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Rowan Hawthorn
>
> Of course, you've said you've seen Seeing Red by now, with the naked bad
> scene (are Alyson Hannigan and Amber Benson the untannest girls there's
> ever been?).
>
I believe Alyson claims that title for herself (she says she doesn't
have the "tanning gene") but Amber was definitely in the running at the
time...
EGK
<rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I believe Alyson claims that title for herself (she says she doesn't
>have the "tanning gene") but Amber was definitely in the running at the
>time...
http://www.whedon.info/article.php3?id_article=17485
She looks nicely tanned in those pictures. She gets hotter all the time
too. Wonder if that's one of those new spray on tans or something?
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"There would be a lot more civility in this world if people
didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you"
(Calvin and Hobbes)
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> threads.
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 17: "Entropy"
> (or "Keep in mind that TV has been in a continuous state of decline
> for the past 30 years or so. Every show just gets worse and worse
> until they collapse under the weight of their own failure. Even if a
> show used to be good, it sucks now. It's sucked for years.")
And it will inevitably suck even more in the future. And any effort to
make a particular show suck less will only increase the total suckage in
TV as a whole.
> fairly meaningless phrase. What I mean is that "Entropy" is almost
> all about relationship angst from top to bottom, more so than probably
> any other episode so far. It sweeps the whole cast along in that as it
> plays out.
There isn't even an incidental villain of the week here as there was in
The Prom or The Body. (The Trio indirectly cause the big plot crisis
point, but only because the camera that they planted weeks ago was
accidentally discovered.)
> your meaningless phrases...) On the whole I find that I generally
> appreciate the intention and the end point of each scene, but the way
> they play out is often spotty. Take Xander's attempt to reconcile
> with Anya. Repetitious, much? "I love you" count - four in
> about a minute, and I think at least two are "so much."
I liked this scene more than you did. The repetition in Xander's words
didn't bother me much, because of the way the argument progresses: first
Xander asks to explain, then it comes out that while he regrets hurting
Anya he still thinks he wasn't ready to get married, then he hesitates
when Anya asks him if he still wants to get married at all. Each "I love
you" is an increasingly desperate attempt to win Anya back as she gets
angrier and angrier. But the most interesting thing is that at first Anya
seems willing to be mollified. If Xander had unhesitatingly said yes, he
definitely wants to marry Anya, could he have won her back? (And if so,
would Anya have given up her Vengeance-Demonhood again?)
> As it turns out, one unsurprisingly can't grant one's own wish.
I think Vengeance Demons (VDs? heh) must be prohibited from granting any
Vengeance Demon's wish, whether it's their own or another's. Otherwise,
two VDs could team up to rule the universe: "I wish I had infinite power!"
"Granted! And I wish *I* had infinite power!" The Lower Beings wouldn't
want their subordinates to get out of hand like that. It does strain
credulity that Anya would just forget this in the short time she was
human, but that's just a minor problem I'm willing to overlook.
> When I think about this episode, I think the part that summarizes it
> best is Anya trying to get Xander's female friends to turn on him,
> and their attempts to not take sides in a situation where there's
> plenty of blame to go around (and they know that most of it should get
> directed at the writers. Or maybe I'm just projecting). This
> sequence takes its time playing out, with three cross-cut
> conversations, all extended. Again, I see where they're going, but
> why so much time on this?
I really liked this part. Each section was quite amusing, to me, and
cutting between them kept any one section from feeling too long. But I
think I would have found these scenes almost as entertaining if presented
sequentially. Willow's "girl on girl action" is just the best of many
successful little jokes.
The striking thing is that Anya doesn't realize her approach is all wrong.
She acts angry and vengeful towards Xander and tries to get his friends to
agree, but they fail to play along because they don't want to take sides
and don't think this anger is good for anyone. But if Anya had just acted
deeply unhappy, it's entirely possible that someone would have made a
spontaneous wish. I doubt they would have wished Xander's testicles would
be gnawed off by weasels, or anything like that. But someone might have
said, for example, "I wish he hadn't hurt you like that."
> I
> appreciate how, like Xander, she thinks she's doing the right thing
> in the long run, preventing long-term anguish, but there's no way to
> stop the other person from taking it in the worst way possible, and
> generally feeling like their world is falling apart. Spike and Anya
> eventually find another thing they have in common, and this time it,
> well, brings them together in a slow, lingering string of scenes. Yet
> again, it kinda takes forever. On the plus side, its conclusion is
> entirely understandable but doesn't seem inevitable until the very
> end. I like the silent separation afterward too.
Again, it was interesting enough that it didn't feel so long to me. The
parallels between Spike's situation and Anya's are brought out much more
clearly than ever before. Both were domesticated against their will, both
were surprised by love, both wound up changing themselves to please their
loves, etc. Spike somewhat simplisticly blames their troubles on the
Scoobies being "uptight, repressed," which reminds me of Faith's view of
Buffy in WAY as a "stuck-up tight-ass with no sense of fun." Love the
little hand gesture Spike makes for "uptight."
> All this is discovered in a pretty plot-devicey way thanks to the
> cameras the Three Amigos have installed everywhere - the geeks
> aren't too interesting this week, and seem to exist only to move the
> story along.
Which is a worthy enough purpose. They advance their own story -- the
Warren and Andrew vs. Jonathan division is now complete and, on W&A's
part, deliberate -- and set up their scheme for the next episode.
Andrew's ambiguous sexuality is on display here too. And Jonathan's
bitter "dead as an ex-girlfriend" line was good.
Though I don't have much to say about it, the scene in Spike's lair was
good. Had to roll my eyes a bit at Spike's claim that he wouldn't spy on
Buffy -- *maybe* he wouldn't do it now, but he's done it a hell of a lot
of times before. And I liked Buffy telling him to move on; he didn't seem
too happy with her, did he?
> Also, the logistics - why does Willow wait so long to
> tell the Summerses that Xander is gone, except that the script requires
> a few minutes to give them a quiet moment together?
It probably took her a few moments to realize he was gone, as she was busy
being all shocked. I like the way both Dawn and Willow realize the truth
about Buffy and Spike just by the look on her face. (Kinda like Willow
was first to do in Innocence.) Xander, of course, had too many other
things on his mind to pick up on it, so he and Anya were still available
for Spike to spill the secret to outside the Magic Box.
Speaking of what's on Xander's mind, I think Xander still hadn't given up
hope of getting back together Anya, up to the very moment he saw her
polishing the table with Spike. That made it even more exquisitely
painful for him. If any part of his mind wasn't busy being shocked at the
sight, it must have been digesting the knowledge that nope, all hope of
getting Anya back is gone. His tiny, pathetic little "what is she ...?"
is different from anything we've heard come out of Xander's mouth before.
> Then there's the final bit outside the Magic Box, and here's where
> I think the episode gets closest to real successful relationship angst.
> Xander and Anya's strong sentiment comes through in some
> well-written dialogue. And then Spike lashes out as he best can, with
> one simple sentence at the right cross-purpose with what's going on,
> right on the heels of the sincere statement that "I look at you, and
> I feel sick." Also, kudos to Marsters for keeping the anger and the
> sadness balanced in his delivery. Compared to something like "The
> Yoko Factor," this feels much more natural: it doesn't lead to a
> dumb shouting match, but has the potential to go deeper, ensure that
> things will always be a little different now. And of course, Xander
> runs away at the end after all...
Not exactly a run, more like an angry stalk. Literally running away
wouldn't feel like as much of a rejection as this does. I love the look
between Buffy and Spike afterwards. If Spike had been trying to make
Buffy hate him, he couldn't hardly have done any better, and once his
half-second of satisfaction is over, he realizes it.
Another good part was Anya finally losing interest in vengeance just as
Spike says "I wish...." Or maybe she lost interest in vengeance once she
realized that she had, inadvertantly, already gotten it.
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
Dawn's joke about stealing a pocketful of goldfish.
Buffy: "Did Willow put that there while I was dead? 'Cause if I had
known...."
> - Anya's frustration with the W/T lack of anti-male sentiment
And when she stalks away in anger, she takes Willow's coffee with her.
> Amidst all this sex and pain, "Entropy"'s first act begins with
> Willow and Tara, and the show ends with them too. The first part of
> the opening scene is a highlight as the latter slightly amusedly
> brushes away Willow's worries from "Normal Again." "You rushed
> off before I could, you know, explain." But then the show surprises
> me by providing a big, sweeping, "up" moment at the end as they
> throw caution and the "right" way to overcome their issues to the
> wind. I'm unclear on whether they're trying for some obscure
> parallel between this reconciliation and the separations it's
> surrounded by, or are just using it as a vivid contrast. But in any
> case, it stands out.
I'm voting vivid contrast. But either way, loved this part. Willow and
Tara are probably my favorite couple on all of BtVS, and it's great to see
them back together in this sort of solemnly joyful scene.
> AOQ rating: Decent
As a wise man once said, "I like it better than that. Sex, pain, and a
little humour, what's going to be wrong with that. For me its a solid
Good."
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
Rowan Hawthorn
> On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 13:37:27 -0400, Rowan Hawthorn
> <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> I believe Alyson claims that title for herself (she says she doesn't
>> have the "tanning gene") but Amber was definitely in the running at the
>> time...
>
> http://www.whedon.info/article.php3?id_article=17485
> She looks nicely tanned in those pictures. She gets hotter all the time
> too. Wonder if that's one of those new spray on tans or something?
It's just makeup on her face (and not nearly as heavy as she used to
wear it, either.) If you look at the high-res ones, you can tell that
from the neck down, what looks like a tan is just her freckles getting
acquainted... :-)
And I do agree with you - she's definitely blossomed with age.
burt...@hotmail.com
wasn't because they wanted to say something significant about either
character. It was because Xander leaving Anya at the altar led her to
comfort sex with Spike, which led to the revealation of the Buffy/Spike
relationship, which led to... other Spike developments that come later.
The Xander/Anya non-wedding story was never about Xander and Anya. It
was just something that happened in service of Spike's storyline, and
the writers didn't care what happened to the other characters in the
process. Like so many other things this season.
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 17: "Entropy"
> (or "Keep in mind that TV has been in a continuous state of decline
> for the past 30 years or so. Every show just gets worse and worse
> until they collapse under the weight of their own failure. Even if a
> show used to be good, it sucks now. It's sucked for years.")
> Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> Director: James A. Contner
>
One thing you didn't comment on: The group dynamic within the Trio is
showing the fallout from "Dead Things"
It isn't so much a Trio anymore as Warren and his minion Andrew, and
Jonathan who wants out, but they can't let him out because he knows too
much but he's still too valuable to them to eliminate.
But he does have an expiry date now.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Arbitrar Of Quality
> to err is human to forgive divine
>
> im thinking this whole soul thing is about empathy
> your soul is that part of you that lets you look at another human
> and feel what they feel as if it were you
>
> when another person is in pain and you make the connection
> then you feel their pain
> and since pain is unpleasant you wish to comfort them
> as you would wish to be comforted
> and from that comes morality
>
> you look at another person who has failed
> and you know you yourself have failed
> and from that comes forgiveness
That's a good way of thinking. I think.
> spike is the other clockwork orange
> the chip has forced him to act morally
> but has that made any difference to his essential nature?
> can he really understand what buffy feels or what other humans feel?
> or is the only pain he feels his own?
> feeling pain isnt having a soul - its merely a survival mechanism of many animals
> feeling the pain of others - thats something else
>
> buffy keeps refering to spike as dead thing she cannot love
> she detects no soul or empathy in him
He's come dangerously close to simulating it sometimes, though, and
Buffy's been able to forget the lack of soul from time to time.
> at that moment xander is too angry to empathize
> thats okay since anger is also human and even divine
> xander is basically at the same state anya was at the end of hells belles
> anyas anger triggered her final failure as a human
>
> will xanders anger pass and let him reconnect with buffy
> or will he also fail as a human?
He doesn't seem to rule it out because he's not sure yet. He decides
that he can't handle the anger and disappointment for the moment, so he
avoids having to act on them in the moment; kinda running (or stalking)
away, kinda a way that might let him not say something he'll regret
later.
> she didnt want willow to stop magic
> what tara wanted was for willow to grow up
> and realize people have their own feelings
> and she wanted willow to understand she couldnt
> reduce other people to her soulless sockpuppets
> it appears willow has learned that lesson
> and tara feels safe resuming intimacy with willow
By that thread of reasoning, Wil was trying to pass off her
self-centered view of "pain" as empathy, to herself, earlier in the
season.
Has she learned her lesson? I think it's hard to say, since she hasn't
really addressed it; she and Tara are so anxious to be together again
that they're willing to skip the part about talking things through and
making sure there's a proper understanding. But having Tara denied to
her may have been what Willow needed to grow.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
I'm not seeing that. Based on "Entropy" and its buildup alone, the
comfort sex seems to be about Anya as much as it is about Spike. As
asshatted as they were with "Hell's Bells," I do think the writers are
trying to tell interesting stories about the whole cast, and that
you're extrapolating the rest without the show backing it up.
I haven't been feeling your "Spike And Buffy Show" premise this year;
Buffy's always front and center, naturally, but Spike has been very
much a supporting character in S6, defined almost entirely in terms of
his relation to Buffy. Mentally going through the season, I can think
of only two episodes that are mostly about Buffy and Spike with the
other leads fading clearly into the background: "Smashed" and "Dead
Things." Seems like a reasonable fraction out of seventeen.
-AOQ
vague disclaimer
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> He's come dangerously close to simulating it sometimes,
Well, if you can fake sincerity...
--
Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
Clairel
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > "Seeing Red," which I just watched.
>
> Well, watched in the very recent past. "Just watched" isn't quite
> literally true, and I don't want to spread dishonesty worldwide.
--This raises the question, though: did you write your review of
"Entropy" before you watched "Seeing Red," or afterward? Seems to me
it makes a big difference. I'd like to think your reactions to
"Entropy" weren't based on anything subsequent to that episode. Yea or
nay?
I guess there's no harm in saying that if you did write your review of
"Entropy" before watching "Seeing Red," then your speculation about
Tara becoming a source of vulnerability for Willow was quite prescient
(though not precisely on target).
By the way, Entropy is easily a "good" for me, or perhaps higher. I
never get tired of rewatching this episode, and I never felt it had any
longueurs. You seem awfully impatient, Mr. AOQ!
Clairel
vague disclaimer
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> Another good part was Anya finally losing interest in vengeance just as
> Spike says "I wish...." Or maybe she lost interest in vengeance once she
> realized that she had, inadvertantly, already gotten it.
Also, I don't think the understated playing of this brief but
devastating exchange would have worked anywhere near as effectively
without the somewhat over-stated earlier scenes.
Exactly who is 'be careful what you wish for' applying to here?
Clairel
-Did you actually mean naked bad scene, or naked bEd scene?
(are Alyson Hannigan and Amber Benson the untannest girls there's
> ever been?).
--I don't picture either Willow or Tara lying around outside in a
bikini and soaking up rays, do you? The beach scene at the beginning
of "Buffy vs. Dracula" had them clothed with incredible modesty (for
California beachwear).
I guess they both agreed they don't have to court skin cancer in order
to impress each other with bronzed skin.
Clairel
Arbitrar Of Quality
Clairel wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > > "Seeing Red," which I just watched.
> >
> > Well, watched in the very recent past. "Just watched" isn't quite
> > literally true, and I don't want to spread dishonesty worldwide.
>
> --This raises the question, though: did you write your review of
> "Entropy" before you watched "Seeing Red," or afterward? Seems to me
> it makes a big difference. I'd like to think your reactions to
> "Entropy" weren't based on anything subsequent to that episode. Yea or
> nay?
I always try to write a first draft of each review before watching the
next episode; it doesn't always get edited and posted right away,
though. So, that's the case here.
-AOQ
Clairel
--Moderation and reasonableness are so refreshing, in response to
extremist whining! Thanks, AOQ.
Clairel
Rowan Hawthorn
> In article <1156447660....@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>> He's come dangerously close to simulating it sometimes,
>
> Well, if you can fake sincerity...
Lots of people do...
Rowan Hawthorn
> William George Ferguson wrote:
>
> (are Alyson Hannigan and Amber Benson the untannest girls there's
>> ever been?).
>
> --I don't picture either Willow or Tara lying around outside in a
> bikini and soaking up rays, do you? The beach scene at the beginning
> of "Buffy vs. Dracula" had them clothed with incredible modesty (for
> California beachwear).
I noticed Willow was wearing a swimsuit under her tank top, though, so
apparently she at least was planning on hitting the water or the sun at
some point.
>
> I guess they both agreed they don't have to court skin cancer in order
> to impress each other with bronzed skin.
Or they burn almost as bad as Spike would...
Clairel
--Really? Are you including all of the times Spike just stood
wistfully under a tree outside Buffy's house? I don't exactly call
that spying. I just call that being lovelorn.
To find Spike doing something like what the Trio did with their
cameras, one has to go all the way back to the episode "Halloween" in
season 2. There, Spike had a minion videotape Buffy fighting, so that
he could study her moves. But that was a long time ago, and the
relationship between Buffy and Spike was very different.
To me it's inconceivable that Spike would do anything like that by
mid-season 6, and I find myself rolling my eyes at the idea that you
think he would -- and at the idea that Buffy would think it was
possible, or that she would listen to someone like Xander, who knows
and understands Spike less than any of the other characters. Buffy
should have dismissed Xander's suggestion immediately.
One episode ago Spike is asked to beat up a demon and bring it in
chains to Buffy's basement, so that Buffy's malady can be cured -- he's
asked to stay in her bedroom with her and make sure she drinks down her
medicine -- and now all of a sudden he's a sinister outsider instead of
a team member? I really wish the Scoobies would make up their minds.
I find it bizarre that Xander would go out on a dangerous demon-hunting
mission with somebody (the kind of mission that requires a lot of
trust, because either partner could get killed if the other one didn't
have his back), and then as soon as they have the demon safely in the
basement, Xander harshly admonishes his partner not to "ogle" anything.
Geez, Xander, either accept Spike's help and be civil to him, or just
don't go on missions with him!
Clairel
Arbitrar Of Quality
Clairel wrote:
> One episode ago Spike is asked to beat up a demon and bring it in
> chains to Buffy's basement, so that Buffy's malady can be cured -- he's
> asked to stay in her bedroom with her and make sure she drinks down her
> medicine -- and now all of a sudden he's a sinister outsider instead of
> a team member? I really wish the Scoobies would make up their minds.
Especially after he did so well with the latter task...
Anyway, keep in mind that "the Scoobies" aren't homogenous. I think
it's mostly Xander who's never trusted Spike. They
> Geez, Xander, either accept Spike's help and be civil to him, or just
> don't go on missions with him!
They really don't like each other (insert sexual tension joke here).
So the show of course has them forced to work together as often as
possible in service of things they both really care about (i.e. Buffy).
-AOQ
Michael Ikeda
news:12erqvj...@corp.supernews.com:
Although there was Xander's "I wish we could just go back to the way
things were before."
Which could have had interesting effects if Anya had thought quickly
enough...
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Michael Ikeda
news:mpudnQubr8XhfXDZ...@giganews.com:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
>> review threads.
>>
>>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Six, Episode 17: "Entropy"
>> (or "Keep in mind that TV has been in a continuous state of
>> decline for the past 30 years or so. Every show just gets
>> worse and worse until they collapse under the weight of their
>> own failure. Even if a show used to be good, it sucks now.
>> It's sucked for years.") Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
>> Director: James A. Contner
>>
>>
>
> I hate to say it, because I like W&T and was hoping they'd patch
> things up, but IMO, the final clinch was one of the *very* few
> scenes that AH & AB didn't quite sell. Not Tara's lead-in
> speech; I think AB hit Tara's reluctant longing and the decision
> to go against her better judgment spot on. Not Willow's
> nervousness as to exactly *what* Tara was leading up to; AH
> projects her obvious fear as to, "Now what have I done wrong?
> Did I try to move too quickly?"
>
> But the rush together and the desperate, hungry kiss just didn't
> ring true, maybe because it looks *too* rushed and desperate
I'd suspect that Willow, at least, WAS desperate. To Willow, the
fact that Tara wants her back is a sign that everything is going to
be wonderful.
Don Sample
"Clairel" <reld...@usa.net> wrote:
> chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> > Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> > Though I don't have much to say about it, the scene in Spike's lair was
> > good. Had to roll my eyes a bit at Spike's claim that he wouldn't spy on
> > Buffy -- *maybe* he wouldn't do it now, but he's done it a hell of a lot
> > of times before.
>
> --Really? Are you including all of the times Spike just stood
> wistfully under a tree outside Buffy's house? I don't exactly call
> that spying. I just call that being lovelorn.
The rest of us call it stalking.
> To find Spike doing something like what the Trio did with their
> cameras, one has to go all the way back to the episode "Halloween" in
> season 2. There, Spike had a minion videotape Buffy fighting, so that
> he could study her moves. But that was a long time ago, and the
> relationship between Buffy and Spike was very different.
We know that he was doing things like that as late as season 5, with his
little Buffy shrine set up in his crypt with photographs and stuff that
he had secretly taken of her (and stolen from her)
> To me it's inconceivable that Spike would do anything like that by
> mid-season 6, and I find myself rolling my eyes at the idea that you
> think he would -- and at the idea that Buffy would think it was
> possible, or that she would listen to someone like Xander, who knows
> and understands Spike less than any of the other characters. Buffy
> should have dismissed Xander's suggestion immediately.
Only if she totally ignores the last 4 years of his behaviour, like most
of the spuffy shippers do.
> One episode ago Spike is asked to beat up a demon and bring it in
> chains to Buffy's basement, so that Buffy's malady can be cured -- he's
> asked to stay in her bedroom with her and make sure she drinks down her
> medicine -- and now all of a sudden he's a sinister outsider instead of
> a team member? I really wish the Scoobies would make up their minds.
You will note that instead of actually making sure that she drank her
potion, he instead makes her feel worse about herself, and leaves
without doing that thing that he was supposed to do. Not exactly a
recommendation of his reliability.
Rowan Hawthorn
No doubt - that's been the whole point of her going "cold turkey." And
I'd suspect that Tara's not far behind her. I have no quibble with the
scene *being* a desperate, hungry kiss, because it *should* have been.
It was just done a bit over-the-top.
BTR1701
> --Really? Are you including all of the times Spike just stood
> wistfully under a tree outside Buffy's house? I don't exactly call
> that spying. I just call that being lovelorn.
People have been arrested for stalking for a lot less than that.
Take off the Spike-colored glasses for a minute and see the behavior for
what it really is.
One Bit Shy
news:mair_fheal-EB6E8...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> In article <1156401006.7...@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>> threads.
>>
>>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Six, Episode 17: "Entropy"
>
>
> im thinking this whole soul thing is about empathy
> your soul is that part of you that lets you look at another human
> and feel what they feel as if it were you
>
> when another person is in pain and you make the connection
> then you feel their pain
> and since pain is unpleasant you wish to comfort them
> as you would wish to be comforted
> and from that comes morality
>
> you look at another person who has failed
> and you know you yourself have failed
> and from that comes forgiveness
>
>> appreciate the intention and the end point of each scene, but the way
>> they play out is often spotty. Take Xander's attempt to reconcile
>> with Anya. Repetitious, much? "I love you" count - four in
>
> the music of pain and suffering as he described in high school
> and how the singers pain resonates with his own
>
> xander failed as an adult
> as he himself realizes he lacked the maturity and self awareness
> to deal with his marriage issues before the fact
>
> so xander failed as an adult but people fail to be adults all the time
> hopefully they learn something from it and grow up a little
> and continue to be better at over time
>
> spikes story has been compared to clockwork orange
> the essence of that story is the question - can you become moral by acting
> moral
> (burgess actually has the prison chaplain explicitly asking this)
> and burgess conclusion is no - morality comes from something else
>
> anyas story is also a clockwork orange
> for the past few years she has been forced into a human body
> living a human life expected to act with human morality and empathy
>
> as others pointed out anya has never expressed guilt for her demon ways
> and even seems to yearn for them
> and note how rarely she feels for anyone else unless she herself is in
> pain
> she had no empathy for her victims past
> and little for her human companions present
>
> anya failed as a human
> and now she is no longer human
>
> (continually over the past few years she has predicted the relation would
> failed
> and congratulations her predictions finally came tryue
> she should be happy)
>
> i find anyas story so sad
> not for the wedding fiasco (fiascos come and go)
> but for total inability to feel anything with or for xander
> her failure and loss of humanity
>
>> When I think about this episode, I think the part that summarizes it
>> best is Anya trying to get Xander's female friends to turn on him,
>> and their attempts to not take sides in a situation where there's
>> plenty of blame to go around (and they know that most of it should get
>
> anya
> evem though themselves suffered little in the wedding
> they want desperately to relieve the pain of anya and xander
>
> adn again and again anya is told but cannot understand
> they want to relieve pain in other people not cause it
>
> tara and willow rather than expressing disgust also try to understand
> how xander could be excited by some girl on girl action
> even though tara possibly has never had a relation with a man
> (of course willows bi)
>
> while halfrek is egging anyanka on
> i dont see halfrek feeling any more empathy for anyanka
> then when halfrek trapped anya in the house in older and faraway
> halfrek like all vengeance demons is merely looking for excuse
> to inflict pain and chaos on the mere mortals
>
>> Moving on for the moment to the other stories, Buffy and Spike get to
>> interact a lot. Just going to quickly note that Spike still seems to
>> think, and is probably right, that they have something going on despite
>
> spike is the other clockwork orange
> the chip has forced him to act morally
> but has that made any difference to his essential nature?
> can he really understand what buffy feels or what other humans feel?
> or is the only pain he feels his own?
> feeling pain isnt having a soul - its merely a survival mechanism of many
> animals
> feeling the pain of others - thats something else
>
> buffy keeps refering to spike as dead thing she cannot love
> she detects no soul or empathy in him
>
>> annoyed at the fact that even "Normal Again" couldn't get anyone
>> to hate her or not forgive her. There's more repetition, this time
>
> her other friends are human
> and while they should be annoyed at being almost murdered
> anger passes in time
> and their empathy for buffys plight can resume
>
>> appreciate how, like Xander, she thinks she's doing the right thing
>> in the long run, preventing long-term anguish, but there's no way to
>> stop the other person from taking it in the worst way possible, and
>
> buffy and xander feel the anguish they are inflicting
> even if they believe the anguish is something that must be gotten through
> to get to a better place
>
> anya feels no anguish for what she inflicts
> does spike feel buffys pain or only his own?
>
>> generally feeling like their world is falling apart. Spike and Anya
>> eventually find another thing they have in common, and this time it,
>> well, brings them together in a slow, lingering string of scenes. Yet
>> again, it kinda takes forever. On the plus side, its conclusion is
>> entirely understandable but doesn't seem inevitable until the very
>
> this is larval empathy
> where you recognize your pain in another and you want to relieve it
>
> but the imago stage of empathy is when even in your joy
> you can look at another in pain and feel it
>
>> end. I like the silent separation afterward too.
>
>
> finally anya appears to realize that she herself has faults
> and that she herself needs a little forgiving
> so maybe theres hope for her yet
>
>> All this is discovered in a pretty plot-devicey way thanks to the
>> cameras the Three Amigos have installed everywhere - the geeks
>> aren't too interesting this week, and seem to exist only to move the
>
> but i find warrens story another sad one
> i think as late as -i was made to you- if he had met a sympathetic woman
> instead of katrina and gotten beyond his childhood trauma
> he couldve been a contender
>
> instead he has rotted from within
> amd by the time of this story warren is human in body only
> another person who failed to be human
> he feels nothing for the woman he killed
> and he feels less and less every episode except for what directly effects
> him
>
> jonathon has failed as an adult
> unlike xander he never got out of the basement
> but he continues to feel guilt and empathy
> so he has not failed as a human
> yet
>
> gur zbzrag jura vg punatrf sbe naqerj vf jura ohssl qnatyrf uvz bire gur
> frny
> naq ur srryf gur rzbgvbaf wbanguba sryg nf naqerj zheqrerq uvz
> naq ol znxvat gung pbaarpgvba jvgu wbanguba
> naqerj vf noyr gb orpbzr n uhzna orvat
> naq svanyyl svaqf n cynpr va gur snzvyl bs ohssl
>
>> story along. Also, the logistics - why does Willow wait so long to
>> tell the Summerses that Xander is gone, except that the script requires
>
>
> (i suppose only in sunnydale could someone storm down the street
> with big honking axe and nobody calls the police)
>
>> a few minutes to give them a quiet moment together? The Buffy/Dawn
>> scenes, both before and after don't resonate much for me, although
>> the latter one is something that needed to happen, and at least we get
>
> the conversation during the unshopping trip is about guilt and forgiveness
> dawn is a child and not expected to get it right
> she has to fail as a child to learn how to fail as an adult
>
> buffy is angry with dawn but has gotten beyond her anger
> and concentrate on helping dawn learn from this
> and instead of inflicting pain on top of pain on top of pain
>
> then when dawn finds about spike she holds a knife she can stick in buffys
> gut
> in return for all the moralizing she has to endure
> but instead she concentrates on empathy and understanding
> (again as a hcild she isnt expected to fully understand)
> instead of inflicting more pain
>
>> Dawn back in sorta-mature mode instead of annoying mode, even without
>
> i like competent-dawn
> its whiny-dawn i dont want to see again
>
>> dumb shouting match, but has the potential to go deeper, ensure that
>> things will always be a little different now. And of course, Xander
>> runs away at the end after all...
>
> thats okay since anger is also human and even divine
> xander is basically at the same state anya was at the end of hells belles
> anyas anger triggered her final failure as a human
>
> will xanders anger pass and let him reconnect with buffy
> or will he also fail as a human?
>
> i dont have a problem with xander beatiing on him or even destroying spike
> but its better to have buffy stop him at the moment
> so that he doesnt do it in the heat of anger
>
>> Amidst all this sex and pain, "Entropy"'s first act begins with
>> Willow and Tara, and the show ends with them too. The first part of
>> the opening scene is a highlight as the latter slightly amusedly
>> brushes away Willow's worries from "Normal Again." "You rushed
>
> tara doesnt want willow to hurt
> she never wanted that
>
> she didnt want willow to stop magic
> what tara wanted was for willow to grow up
> and realize people have their own feelings
> and she wanted willow to understand she couldnt
> reduce other people to her soulless sockpuppets
> it appears willow has learned that lesson
> and tara feels safe resuming intimacy with willow
>
> and be unwilling to make tara feel pain again
>
>> wind. I'm unclear on whether they're trying for some obscure
>> parallel between this reconciliation and the separations it's
>> surrounded by, or are just using it as a vivid contrast. But in any
>> case, it stands out.
>
> and tara recognized that
> willow (and every other human) will likely fail again
> but to err is human
> to forgive divine
> and to avenge demonic
This is a great post - maybe the best I've read of yours. I love how you
bring it around again to that final line with the demonic add on.
OBS
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> This is a great post - maybe the best I've read of yours. I love how you
> bring it around again to that final line with the demonic add on.
lrg gb pbzr
jr yrnea fcvxrf pybpxjbex benatr qbrfag znxr uhzna
vgf trggvvat uvf fbhy onpx gung znxrf uvz uhzna
abg zbeny ohg ng yrnfg rzcngurgvp
nalnaxn vf gnvagrq jvgu uhznavgl
naq hygvzngryl erpbtavmrf gur qnzntr fur unf qbar
naq zbheaf gur seng oblf fur unf xvyyrq
naq gung znxrf ure uhzna
fgvyy vzcresrpg ohg gelvat
naln qvrf n uhzna
jung tvyrf qbfrf jvyybj jvgu vf rzcngul
jvyybj srryf nyy gur cnva va gur jbeyq
naq fur qrqvpngrf ure gb eryvrivat gung
hasbeghangryl va ure natre naq qrfcnve ure fbyhgvba vf engure qrfgehpgvir
knaqre fnirf gur jbeyq jvgu snvgu naq rzcngul
ur fgevirf gb znxr na rzbgvbany pbaarpgvba jvgu jvyybj
naq svanyyl fhpprrqf
naqerj tbrf snegure vagb qnexarff
ohg pbzrf gb gur yvtug bapr ur gnxrf erfcbafvovyvgl
naq bapr ur znxrf gung rzbgvbany pbaarpgvba jvgu wbangu-a
wbangu-a whfg orsber ur qvrf ernyvmrf vg qbrfag znggre vs crbcyr yvxr uvz be abg
ur whfg jnag gb xabj gurl ner qbvat jryy
wbangu-a qvrf n uhzna
jneera cergraqf gb gnxr erfcbafvovyvgl
cergraqf thvyg
ohg uvf ynfg jbeqf ner gb vagvzvqngr jvyybj vagb serrvat uvz
- i dont care what you believe
just believe
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
vague disclaimer
Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> vague disclaimer wrote:
> > In article <1156447660....@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> > "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> He's come dangerously close to simulating it sometimes,
> >
> > Well, if you can fake sincerity...
>
> Lots of people do...
Indeed.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
>> Though I don't have much to say about it, the scene in Spike's lair was
>> good. Had to roll my eyes a bit at Spike's claim that he wouldn't spy on
>> Buffy -- *maybe* he wouldn't do it now, but he's done it a hell of a lot
>> of times before.
>
> --Really? Are you including all of the times Spike just stood
> wistfully under a tree outside Buffy's house? I don't exactly call
> that spying. I just call that being lovelorn.
If he was secretly watching her, then that falls within the definition of
spying. If you don't like the negative connotations of "spying," then try
putting it this way: "Spike was so lovelorn that he was driven to spy on
Buffy." And you can add that Spike was so lovelorn that he was driven to
stalk Buffy too. Being lovelorn doesn't change what Spike did, it just
describes his motivation for doing it.
That said, I agree that Xander leapt to his conclusion a little too
hastily. Both the Trio and Spike could be suspected of spying on Buffy,
but using a digital video camera is more their style than his. And I
would agree that Xander leapt to this conclusion because he personally
dislikes Spike so much. But since Buffy and (presumably) Willow agree
with him, the idea must have seemed plausible to the non-Xander Scoobies
too.
> One episode ago Spike is asked to beat up a demon and bring it in
> chains to Buffy's basement, so that Buffy's malady can be cured -- he's
> asked to stay in her bedroom with her and make sure she drinks down her
> medicine -- and now all of a sudden he's a sinister outsider instead of
> a team member? I really wish the Scoobies would make up their minds.
>
> I find it bizarre that Xander would go out on a dangerous demon-hunting
> mission with somebody (the kind of mission that requires a lot of
> trust, because either partner could get killed if the other one didn't
> have his back), and then as soon as they have the demon safely in the
> basement, Xander harshly admonishes his partner not to "ogle" anything.
> Geez, Xander, either accept Spike's help and be civil to him, or just
> don't go on missions with him!
Of course it goes both ways: if Spike wants to be accepted by the group,
he should be more civil to them too. The Scooby-Spike antipathy, and
especially the Xander-Spike antipathy, has always been mutual.
Anyway, I don't think they (including Xander) treated Spike with
unreasonable harshness anytime in season 6 before the last act of Entropy.
If they dislike him, well, he isn't exactly repentant about all the times
he tried to kill them in seasons 2-4. If they act suspicious of him,
well, he has misbehaved in the past, in many ways large and small. It
doesn't seem so outrageous that they can work with him but remain
unfriendly and wary of him. This exchange from Seeing Red (which AOQ has
already seen, but I'll rot13 it on principle) captures it -- Ohssl: "Lbh
sbhtug fvqr ol fvqr jvgu uvz jura V jnf tbar. Lbh yrg uvz gnxr pner bs
Qnja." Knaqre: "Ohg V arire sbetbg jung ur ernyyl vf."
Opus the Penguin
> spike is the other clockwork orange
> the chip has forced him to act morally
> but has that made any difference to his essential nature?
> can he really understand what buffy feels or what other humans
> feel? or is the only pain he feels his own?
> feeling pain isnt having a soul - its merely a survival mechanism
> of many animals feeling the pain of others - thats something else
I think Spike's made it abundantly clear that he feels empathy for
Buffy. This goes at least back to when Buffy found out her mother was
ill. He's also got some sort of feeling for Dawn.
But those are the two special cases. He's not completely human.
--
Opus the Penguin
The best darn penguin in all of Usenet
Opus the Penguin
(mair_...@yahoo.com) wrote:
> i guess its just my darn librul fuzzy wuzzy morality
> but i find warrens story another sad one
> i think as late as -i was made to you- if he had met a sympathetic
> woman instead of katrina and gotten beyond his childhood trauma
> he couldve been a contender
instead of a bum
which is what he is
Arbitrar Of Quality
Opus the Penguin wrote:
> mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> (mair_...@yahoo.com) wrote:
>
> > i guess its just my darn librul fuzzy wuzzy morality
> > but i find warrens story another sad one
> > i think as late as -i was made to you- if he had met a sympathetic
> > woman instead of katrina and gotten beyond his childhood trauma
> > he couldve been a contender
>
> instead of a bum
> which is what he is
I mean, let's face it.
-AOQ
Ian Galbraith
> And now you see why the writers killed Xander and Anya's wedding. It
> wasn't because they wanted to say something significant about either
> character. It was because Xander leaving Anya at the altar led her to
> comfort sex with Spike, which led to the revealation of the Buffy/Spike
> relationship, which led to... other Spike developments that come later.
> The Xander/Anya non-wedding story was never about Xander and Anya. It
> was just something that happened in service of Spike's storyline, and
> the writers didn't care what happened to the other characters in the
> process. Like so many other things this season.
Oh give me a break!
--
You can't stop the signal
One Bit Shy
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> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 17: "Entropy"
> I'm always less caught up in the nature of the tale than in how
> it's told. So is "Entropy" a success? Yes and no. (Talk about
> your meaningless phrases...) On the whole I find that I generally
> appreciate the intention and the end point of each scene, but the way
> they play out is often spotty. Take Xander's attempt to reconcile
> with Anya. Repetitious, much? "I love you" count - four in
> about a minute, and I think at least two are "so much."
I started writing a structural explanation of the I love yous and then
stopped to marval that I could find myself writing something like that,
'cause the real marval is the notion that repeating "I love you," in a scene
of this nature could exist as a criticisim. Huh?
I love this scene. I love watching Anya's emotional progression (shown in
both face and tone - EC is fabulous here) as she alternately displays
despondency, hope, surprise, disappointment, contempt, vengeance and
frustration. While Xander is caught in a sinking despair as he sees himself
losing grip on his life.
I love the contrast of Xander wanting to remove the hurt while Anya wants to
inflict it. I feel for Xander struggling to figure out how to get across
the idea that he really is committed even though he can't get married - how
it really isn't a simple question even though it asks for a yes or a no.
And I love the humor of Anya's frustration as she gripes, "Those are
metaphor intestines!" and stalks out.
This was their one near term chance at reconciliation. (Anything's possible
further into the future.) Xander's attempt may have been inadequate, but
reconciling is his aim throughout. Anya shuts it down and leaps to fulll
vengeance demon mode - her first attempt being to blot out Xander's entire
existence. Think about that. It's a wish that not only removes Xander, but
also Anya's entire stab at humanity. And it immediately follows Xander's
wish that they could go back to the way things were before.
> As often
> happens, the show is seemingly protected from too much criticism by the
> fact that Xander himself is confused, mind going around in circles,
> unable to properly articulate things, and so on. To which I respond: I
> viewer, you TV show. Entertain me.
Entertain you? When you perceive Xander's depiction as protection from
criticism? I don't know what that means, but it doesn't sound like it
includes letting the show be what it presents.
Yeah, Xander struggles to express himself. That's who he is. The turn of
the conversation and Anya's attitude took him off the path he practiced for
and imagined and dreamed would hapen. So he's caught not knowing what to
say. But he's not confused about what he feels. He wants to be with Anya.
Every day. He just doesn't want to get married.
> As it turns out, one unsurprisingly can't grant one's own wish.
> Okay, so why didn't Anya stay human long enough to have Hallie or
> D'Hoffryn or someone respond to a wish about Xander, and only then
> reclaim her position? Isn't having one's vengeance part of the
> process of becoming a Justice Demon in the first place (just ask Olaf)?
The only real criticism I have of the episode that I can recall is the
clumsy manner of handling the wish rules. Every time I see the scene of
Halfrek telling Anya she can't grant herself a wish and then ponder how Anya
might get around that, I think, Anya, there's a vengeance demon sitting
across the table from you. Make a wish to her.
Now I can think of all sorts of reasons that would be a bad idea (such as
Hallie granting it in a way that Anya wouldn't like), and think it probably
makes sense that vengeance demons not be able to grant wishes to other
vengeance demons. That would be fine. It's just that something probably
ought to be done to deal with the obvious solution literally sitting in
front of you before pondering the more convoluted solutions.
> When I think about this episode, I think the part that summarizes it
> best is Anya trying to get Xander's female friends to turn on him,
> and their attempts to not take sides in a situation where there's
> plenty of blame to go around (and they know that most of it should get
> directed at the writers. Or maybe I'm just projecting). This
> sequence takes its time playing out, with three cross-cut
> conversations, all extended. Again, I see where they're going, but
> why so much time on this? There are a few jokes, but it's not funny
> enough as a whole to be a comedy bit, and it soon becomes clear that
> Xander's in no danger, so there's not much drama. Maybe it's
> just meant to let us know exactly how everyone's reacting? In any
> case, it's not bad at all, but it is quite long. As are all her
> scenes with Halfrek, and her continual waiting-for-a-wish moments which
> pretty much last all show.
Ants in your pants?
Well it *is* a comedy bit with lots of humor. (Starting a tad before Anya
shows up with Tara and Willow giggling about the penis monster, invisible
ray & demon eggs.) I'm especially fond of this little bit with Dawn.
Anya: So. Tell me more about wishing Xander's brains and guts would go
blooey.
Dawn: I didn't say that.
Anya: Yes you did.
Dawn: No I didn't.
Anya: I heard you.
Dawn: I swear, I didn't say that.
Anya: Didn't say what?
I also like Buffy's line, "Whoa. Guys? There have only been four - three!
Three! Three guys. That's barely plural."
And Anya's growing frustration is amusing to watch initself. There's some
nice attention paid to tone and pacing to keep the sequence from lagging.
There is more to the sequence than the humor. It's kind of an object lesson
for Anya (who doesn't get it) about human vs. demon and the bankruptcy of
her approach. People are expressing their heartfelt feelings for the both
of them. Their only wish that the pain leave both. But Anya is so consumed
in her desire for payback, that she can't hear the love offered her, or
grasp how much in pain Xander already is. Of course she didn't understand
that usefully in her scene with Xander either.
Worse are the scenes with Dawn - the ones where the emphasis is directly and
literally on w-i-s-h. Remember, Dawn is the victim of a vengeance demon -
she even reminds Anya of that. Anya, herself, was caught in that spell.
This is what Anya has become. Exploiting Xander's friends, even a young
teenager (that she still thinks of as a child) who has already beein
painfully used for vengeance, to exact a horrible revenge upon someone they
all love.
This sequence is where we really see how she's failed to acquire a human
regard for others.
> Moving on for the moment to the other stories, Buffy and Spike get to
> interact a lot. Just going to quickly note that Spike still seems to
> think, and is probably right, that they have something going on despite
> having theoretically broken up four episodes ago.
Do you really think so? I didn't talk much of Spike in my As You Were
comments, and don't recall this being mentioned elsewhere. But I think the
triggering moment was seeing that the eggs were in the crypt. The last
piece in her wake-up puzzle. She had been so consumed with the big issue of
the evil soulless beast corrupting her own soul that she had lost touch with
the simple basics. You can't trust Spike. And she had let herself slip
into trusting him. That kind of jerked her out of the emotional aspect for
a moment to see the just plain stupid part.
I don't doubt that Buffy still has some kind of feelings for Spike, but I
believe we're watching a process of conscious emotional distancing by Buffy.
Her volition is back and she's acting upon it.
> Buffy seems almost
> annoyed at the fact that even "Normal Again" couldn't get anyone
> to hate her or not forgive her.
Again, do you really think so? I thought she was taunting Spike with that.
(Somewhat prematurely, since the news of their affair went over very badly
with Xander. On the other hand. Not so badly with everybody else.)
> There's more repetition, this time
> basically reenacting the end of "As You Were," but it's more
> concise and perhaps better for it.
Once more. I don't think so. This is a progression - pretty far along
actually. Buffy is moving further and further away. And Spike is taking it
less and less well. He's threatening to tell on Buffy and may be in a
little denial about what Buffy is doing. As You Were ended with a whimper
as far as Spike is concerned. The scene in the crypt here ended with a
growl.
> Spike is at his most emotionally
> open, and the response is a simultaneous acknowledgement and rejection.
> There are essays that could be written, although the theme is pretty
> explicit in the show itself, about the concept of "real"-ness in
> the entire B/S arc, going back at least to "Intervention." I
> appreciate how, like Xander, she thinks she's doing the right thing
> in the long run, preventing long-term anguish, but there's no way to
> stop the other person from taking it in the worst way possible, and
> generally feeling like their world is falling apart.
And Spike, of course, is so well known for being level headed.
The parallel with Buffy/Xander deviates in one, I think, notable way though.
Buffy doesn't want reconciliation. Xander does - and he continues to pine.
Anya has shut the door to reconciliation, but Spike keeps it open. He's the
pining one. So there's actually a parallel between Spike and Xander too.
Makes it a little sad that they're the ones that have at it and that Spike
is the vehicle for ending Xander's hope, while simultaneously alienating
Buffy more. Of course, this is one parallel I doubt they'll ever recognize.
Neither likely wants to know what they have in common with each other.
Hell, I suppose that means there's a Buffy/Anya parallel too. If for no
other reason than they both boff Spike when they're down. But we probably
need to go there even less.
> Spike and Anya
> eventually find another thing they have in common, and this time it,
> well, brings them together in a slow, lingering string of scenes. Yet
> again, it kinda takes forever. On the plus side, its conclusion is
> entirely understandable but doesn't seem inevitable until the very
> end. I like the silent separation afterward too.
On the plus side, it's just a brilliant sequence. Terrific acting on both
parts with a whole lot of chemistry. A fascinating progression from wish
hunting, to mutual venting, to mutual appreciation and commiseration, to
gratefulness, to emotional release through sex, to the sad realization that
their pain is still there.
Together they pretty much spell out the parallels between the two in this
scene - beautifully so. Every vent about Buffy and Xander resonates with
the other, somehow soothing both in the process. I don't know how clear the
parallels between them had been to viewers prior to this, but told this way
it suddenly feels like it's been forever.
Eventually Anya reaches a place that finally shows a crack in her resentment
of Xander, exposing some of her fear.
Anya: This whole time, I've been coming on all ... hell-bent and mad.
Wanting his head, you know?
Spike: Yeah.
Anya: When, really, I ... can't sleep at night, thinking it ... has to be my
fault, somehow...
Spike: Shh...
Anya: What if it was just pretending? What if he never wanted me ... the way
I wanted him?
I do feel bad for Anya here. But if she had really looked at and believed
the pain on Xander's face earlier in the episode, she might know the answer
to that... On the other hand, she had already accepted the the mantle of the
vengeance demon by then.
These words, of course, also resonate with Spike.
Spike: He would have to be more than just the git he is, Anya. He'd have to
be deaf, dumb and blind not to want a woman like you.
Anya: Then why?
Spike: The two of them ... they're weak, is all.
And Buffy would have to be deaf, dumb and blind not to want him. That last
line - they're weak - is directly lifted from Buffy telling him that she had
been weak. Of course, she meant it 100% opposite from what Spike is saying.
Spike was very impressive with Anya this night. Really helped her feel
better. At least for a moment. But it was kind of a self serving
conversation too - self validating. And he ended up with exactly the wrong
idea.
> All this is discovered in a pretty plot-devicey way thanks to the
> cameras the Three Amigos have installed everywhere - the geeks
> aren't too interesting this week, and seem to exist only to move the
> story along.
No, a few things of some import were squeezed into the Trio's scenes.
They've got some kind of major caper in the works - one big enough for
Jonathan to believe it all could end then and he could get out. But it
seems he's got an expiration date. It's pretty blunt now that Jonathan is
miserable and afraid and wants out and that Warren and Andrew are paired and
ready to take Jonathan down the moment they don't need him anymore.
Jonathan: If something goes wrong, it's gonna surge... and we'll be deader
than an ex-girlfriend.
Yee. That's a harsh line.
I really like the plot device. It's one of those situations where you
helplessly watch two cars oblivously heading for each other and their
inevitable crack-up. Sometimes suspense can be found in knowing the awful
news in advance, but then worrying about the consequences as you wait for it
to happen. I think it delivered pretty well.
> Also, the logistics - why does Willow wait so long to
> tell the Summerses that Xander is gone, except that the script requires
> a few minutes to give them a quiet moment together?
The Dawn and Buffy conversation lasts 40 seconds. Willow could easily have
been caught in some brief indecision (not unheard of for her), like maybe
she started out the front door after Xander and then realized it would be
better to get Buffy. Whatever, it wouldn't take much to consume 40 seconds.
> The Buffy/Dawn
> scenes, both before and after don't resonate much for me, although
> the latter one is something that needed to happen, and at least we get
> Dawn back in sorta-mature mode instead of annoying mode, even without
> people necessarily treating her better. "I kinda didn't wanna admit
> it to myself." "I get that." She's more explicit than usual
> (during the pancake scene) about what she'd really like, what's
> been bothering her in particular.
Hmmm. I thought this was the first good Dawn stuff since Wrecked. It may
be a small blessing that Dawn's the first one Buffy talks to now that the
news about Spike is out. I doubt Dawn really minds that Buffy's been with
Spike. She knows better than most that Spike has worthwhile qualities.
> Then there's the final bit outside the Magic Box, and here's where
> I think the episode gets closest to real successful relationship angst.
> Xander and Anya's strong sentiment comes through in some
> well-written dialogue. And then Spike lashes out as he best can, with
> one simple sentence at the right cross-purpose with what's going on,
> right on the heels of the sincere statement that "I look at you, and
> I feel sick." Also, kudos to Marsters for keeping the anger and the
> sadness balanced in his delivery. Compared to something like "The
> Yoko Factor," this feels much more natural: it doesn't lead to a
> dumb shouting match, but has the potential to go deeper, ensure that
> things will always be a little different now. And of course, Xander
> runs away at the end after all...
Terrific scene. Anya stopping Spike's wish is interesting.
Unintentionally, she got her vengeance. But it tastes bitter. Hurts Anya
too as she now assures that he won't love her as she loves him. One more
thing. It's a very human kind of vengeance. Not a demon kind of vengeance
at all. Which is kind of a bother 'cause she's a demon now.
Spike couldn't help revealing himself and Buffy. Could anyone in a position
like his (assuming such a thing were possible) not blurt that? But it's
still a screw up. Now he's hurt Buffy after saying he doesn't do that. He
knows it. He saw Buffy's glare. Such are the times that try men's
souls.... Ooops. He doesn't have one, does he.
I think the Buffy/Xander situation is fairly self evident. But it might be
useful to remember that he's been here before. With Angel. In Revelations.
The question then becomes, is that prior history good or bad?
> Amidst all this sex and pain, "Entropy"'s first act begins with
> Willow and Tara, and the show ends with them too. The first part of
> the opening scene is a highlight as the latter slightly amusedly
> brushes away Willow's worries from "Normal Again." "You rushed
> off before I could, you know, explain." But then the show surprises
> me by providing a big, sweeping, "up" moment at the end as they
> throw caution and the "right" way to overcome their issues to the
> wind. I'm unclear on whether they're trying for some obscure
> parallel between this reconciliation and the separations it's
> surrounded by, or are just using it as a vivid contrast. But in any
> case, it stands out.
I suppose structurally it's a contrasting parallel. The broken couple
coming together as the other couples break apart.
But I look on this moment more as a consequence. Tara left Willow because
she felt she had to, not because she wanted to. I expect that she's yearned
for what she's lost ever since. Indeed, I think a big part of this moment
is simply being horny. I don't mean that crassly. It's all part of the
whole, and the sexual longing just adds to the urgency.
The big thing, though, is Tara watching the lives of her friends crumble
before her. She's seeing afresh how fragile even the strongest
relationships can be - and how fleeting. But this time with the sense that
she better grab it while she can. (So, yes, even this serves as
foreshadowing.) I really appreciate her little speech reciting the things
that need to be worked out to make it last. It's both the show and the
character acknowledging that a kiss doesn't fix everything. But you need
the kiss too. And sometimes you need it sooner than the other stuff.
Whether or not she acted premature for the long picture is academic now.
But I think I understand the urgency and am more than fine with it.
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Partially successful.
On story content I'd give this a high Good, but I'm bumping this to
Excellent on the back of Emma Caulfield's acting - well supported by James
Marsters. Whatever you may think of Hell's Bells as an episode, I hope
you'd agree that her performance was outstanding in it. And here she
carries an entire episode on her back quite superbly, making for the most
extensive and intense performing sequence in her BtVS career to date.
OBS
Ladyluck
Lbh cebonoyl qvqa'g rira guvax nobhg vg ohg lbhe fvt unf n UHTR fcbvyre
sbe NBD.
Gur "Gnen (nsgre trggvat fubg ol Jneera)" ovg...
Zvtug jnag gb rqvg vg...
Rincewind wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> >A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > threads.
> >
> >
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Six, Episode 17: "Entropy"
> > (or "Keep in mind that TV has been in a continuous state of decline
> > for the past 30 years or so. Every show just gets worse and worse
> > until they collapse under the weight of their own failure. Even if a
> > show used to be good, it sucks now. It's sucked for years.")
>
> Heehee.
>
> > I'm always less caught up in the nature of the tale than in how
> > it's told. So is "Entropy" a success? Yes and no. (Talk about
> > your meaningless phrases...) On the whole I find that I generally
> > appreciate the intention and the end point of each scene, but the way
> > they play out is often spotty. Take Xander's attempt to reconcile
> > with Anya. Repetitious, much? "I love you" count - four in
> > about a minute, and I think at least two are "so much." As often
> > happens, the show is seemingly protected from too much criticism by the
> > fact that Xander himself is confused, mind going around in circles,
> > unable to properly articulate things, and so on. To which I respond: I
> > viewer, you TV show. Entertain me.
>
> I couldn't have said it better.
>
>
> > When I think about this episode, I think the part that summarizes it
> > best is Anya trying to get Xander's female friends to turn on him,
> > and their attempts to not take sides in a situation where there's
> > plenty of blame to go around (and they know that most of it should get
> > directed at the writers. Or maybe I'm just projecting). This
> > sequence takes its time playing out, with three cross-cut
> > conversations, all extended. Again, I see where they're going, but
> > why so much time on this? There are a few jokes, but it's not funny
> > enough as a whole to be a comedy bit, and it soon becomes clear that
> > Xander's in no danger, so there's not much drama. Maybe it's
> > just meant to let us know exactly how everyone's reacting? In any
> > case, it's not bad at all, but it is quite long.
>
> But Willow's "We're more centered around the. girl-on-girl action." is
> priceless.
> I also liked the Dawn parts a lot: when the writers stop writing her like
> she is 12 years old she can be very funny (and occasionally adorable).
>
> > Amidst all this sex and pain, "Entropy"'s first act begins with
> > Willow and Tara, and the show ends with them too. The first part of
> > the opening scene is a highlight as the latter slightly amusedly
> > brushes away Willow's worries from "Normal Again." "You rushed
> > off before I could, you know, explain." But then the show surprises
> > me by providing a big, sweeping, "up" moment at the end as they
> > throw caution and the "right" way to overcome their issues to the
> > wind. I'm unclear on whether they're trying for some obscure
> > parallel between this reconciliation and the separations it's
> > surrounded by, or are just using it as a vivid contrast. But in any
> > case, it stands out.
>
> The best scene of the episode for me.
>
> > ... Well, time will tell, but
> > in the meantime, can we all unite in thanking UPN for not interfering
> > with the closing moments?
>
> THANKS UPN!!!
>
>
> Rincewind.
vague disclaimer
Ian Galbraith <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
*Us*, Ian, *us*.
Rincewind
> Hi Rincewind:
>
> You probably didn't even think about it but your sig has a HUGE spoiler
> for AOQ.
Actually I thought about it...
I am always very careful about AOQ's desire to remain spoiler free.
But in this case I knew he had already watched Seeing Red because at
08:03:08 GMT he wrote:
> Indeed. The hero-worship, of course, does a lot to shape their
> interactions in "Seeing Red," which I just watched.
I posted my message 8 hours later, so I assumed it was ok not to rot13 it.
Rincewind.
--
Lines you'll never hear on Buffy:
BUFFY: ...and in my dream, Willow, I was a vampire, and I think I was kind
of gay. That doesn't mean, that, you know, part of me is actually gay?
WILLOW: Buffy, we've been having sex on the side since we became roommates
in college. I really think you've moved past the "kind of" and right into
the "really."
Espen Schjønberg
> "Ladyluck" <Ladyl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Hi Rincewind:
>>
>>You probably didn't even think about it but your sig has a HUGE spoiler
>>for AOQ.
>
>
> Actually I thought about it...
> I am always very careful about AOQ's desire to remain spoiler free.
>
I think part of the point here is an attempt to add spoiler-free
comments to Google for eternity.
A good project.
People may come to the show and watch it, and try to find spoiler-free
discussions of the show "as it goes". That is impossible, or was, until
we could point them to this treads.
Notice how AOQ rot13-s his own "spoilers".
--
Espen
Rincewind
>> "Ladyluck" <Ladyl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Hi Rincewind:
>>>
>>>You probably didn't even think about it but your sig has a HUGE spoiler
>>>for AOQ.
>>
>>
>> Actually I thought about it...
>> I am always very careful about AOQ's desire to remain spoiler free.
>>
>> But in this case I knew he had already watched ...
>
> I think part of the point here is an attempt to add spoiler-free comments
> to Google for eternity.
>
> A good project.
>
> People may come to the show and watch it, and try to find spoiler-free
> discussions of the show "as it goes". That is impossible, or was, until we
> could point them to this treads.
It'a a good point. I never thought about it this way.
In the future I will keep that in mind.
> Notice how AOQ rot13-s his own "spoilers".
Actually, today's review is the first time I have noticed him doing that...
maybe he was trying to suggest something to me...
Rincewind.
--
Lines you'll never hear on Buffy:
XANDER: I completely respect your decision, Buff. I mean, who am I to pass
judgement on your love life?
peachy ashie passion
> And now you see why the writers killed Xander and Anya's wedding. It
> wasn't because they wanted to say something significant about either
> character. It was because Xander leaving Anya at the altar led her to
> comfort sex with Spike, which led to the revealation of the Buffy/Spike
> relationship, which led to... other Spike developments that come later.
>
> The Xander/Anya non-wedding story was never about Xander and Anya. It
> was just something that happened in service of Spike's storyline, and
> the writers didn't care what happened to the other characters in the
> process. Like so many other things this season.
>
Your entire premise is based on the idea that this worked better than
say, Xander walking in on Buffy and Spike boinking.
peachy ashie passion
> In article <1156454590.5...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> "Clairel" <reld...@usa.net> wrote:
>
>
>>chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
>>
>>>Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>Though I don't have much to say about it, the scene in Spike's lair was
>>>good. Had to roll my eyes a bit at Spike's claim that he wouldn't spy on
>>>Buffy -- *maybe* he wouldn't do it now, but he's done it a hell of a lot
>>>of times before.
>>
>>--Really? Are you including all of the times Spike just stood
>>wistfully under a tree outside Buffy's house? I don't exactly call
>>that spying. I just call that being lovelorn.
>
>
> The rest of us call it stalking.
A COUPLE of you call it stalking.
It's hardly universal.
Rowan Hawthorn
Well, realistically? If some real-life guy was doing exactly as Spike
does, the same people who rationalize Spike's actions would call it
stalking, too...
BTR1701
Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
The cops certainly would.
DysgraphicProgrammer
> > threads.
>
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Six, Episode 17: "Entropy"
> > (or "Keep in mind that TV has been in a continuous state of decline
> > for the past 30 years or so. Every show just gets worse and worse
> > until they collapse under the weight of their own failure. Even if a
> > show used to be good, it sucks now. It's sucked for years.")
> I think Vengeance Demons (VDs? heh) must be prohibited from granting any
> Vengeance Demon's wish, whether it's their own or another's. Otherwise,
> two VDs could team up to rule the universe: "I wish I had infinite power!"
> "Granted! And I wish *I* had infinite power!"
"Scerw you, I'm not sharing my power! <ZAP!>"
peachy ashie passion
Well, *I* wouldn't.
But only because of the infrequency we saw it in. If it was more
often, then yeah.
Rowan Hawthorn
Gotta remember, though, for each episode, we were only *seeing* one day
or two out of a week. Reckon what he was doing the *other* 5 or 6...?
peachy ashie passion
Well, *I* think he was off killing people. But that's just me.
Arbitrar Of Quality
Rincewind wrote:
> "Espen Schjønberg" <ess...@excite.com> wrote:
> > I think part of the point here is an attempt to add spoiler-free comments
> > to Google for eternity.
> >
> > A good project.
> >
> > People may come to the show and watch it, and try to find spoiler-free
> > discussions of the show "as it goes". That is impossible, or was, until we
> > could point them to this treads.
>
> It'a a good point. I never thought about it this way.
> In the future I will keep that in mind.
Yeah, that's part of the point. I do ocassionally like to imagine
newcomers to the show following these threads years down the line.
Unfortunatlely, but not surprisingly, we've all slipped up a few times
(and I'm not as religious as I could be with regard to keeping later
spoilers out of the ongoing discussions in older threads that've been
active for awhile).
-AOQ
James Craine
Was Freddy Einsford-Hill stalking Eliza?
(I would say no.)
Rowan Hawthorn
Was Freddy a vampire? A demon in a human body? Did he hang around
outside Eliza's window for hours at a time? Did he ever try to entice
Eliza into "the darkness"? Coax her into engaging in public sex?
Then the one really isn't relevant to the other, is it?
George W Harris
<opusthepen...@gmail.com> wrote:
:mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
:(mair_...@yahoo.com) wrote:
:
:> i guess its just my darn librul fuzzy wuzzy morality
:> but i find warrens story another sad one
:> i think as late as -i was made to you- if he had met a sympathetic
:> woman instead of katrina and gotten beyond his childhood trauma
:> he couldve been a contender
:
:instead of a bum
:which is what he is
Are you saying he's glad what he done to her?
He's glad what he done?
--
/bud...@nirvana.net/h:k
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
George W Harris
:(are Alyson Hannigan and Amber Benson the untannest girls there's
:> ever been?).
:
:--I don't picture either Willow or Tara lying around outside in a
:bikini and soaking up rays, do you? The beach scene at the beginning
:of "Buffy vs. Dracula" had them clothed with incredible modesty (for
:California beachwear).
:
:I guess they both agreed they don't have to court skin cancer in order
:to impress each other with bronzed skin.
Actually, I think Willow's just trying to avoid a stroke.
:
:Clairel
--
"The truths of mathematics describe a bright and clear universe,
exquisite and beautiful in its structure, in comparison with
which the physical world is turbid and confused."
-Eulogy for G.H.Hardy
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
George W Harris <gha...@mundsprung.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Aug 2006 01:57:51 GMT, Opus the Penguin
> <opusthepen...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> :mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> :(mair_...@yahoo.com) wrote:
> :
> :> i guess its just my darn librul fuzzy wuzzy morality
> :> but i find warrens story another sad one
> :> i think as late as -i was made to you- if he had met a sympathetic
> :> woman instead of katrina and gotten beyond his childhood trauma
> :> he couldve been a contender
> :
> :instead of a bum
> :which is what he is
>
> Are you saying he's glad what he done to her?
> He's glad what he done?
so
hows that bipartite morality going for you?
meow arf meow - they are performing horrible experiments in space
major grubert is watching you - beware the bakalite
there can only be one or two
George W Harris
<James...@Hotmail.com> wrote:
:
:
:Rowan Hawthorn wrote:
:> peachy ashie passion wrote:
:>
:>> Rowan Hawthorn wrote:
:>>
:>>> peachy ashie passion wrote:
:>>>
:>>>> Don Sample wrote:
:>>>>
:>>> Well, realistically? If some real-life guy was doing exactly as
:>>> Spike does, the same people who rationalize Spike's actions would
:>>> call it stalking, too...
:>>>
:>>
:>> Well, *I* wouldn't.
:>>
:>> But only because of the infrequency we saw it in. If it was more
:>> often, then yeah.
:>
:>
:> Gotta remember, though, for each episode, we were only *seeing* one day
:> or two out of a week. Reckon what he was doing the *other* 5 or 6...?
:>
:
:Was Freddy Einsford-Hill stalking Eliza?
"I have often walked down this street before,
But never while I was packing heat before..."
:(I would say no.)
--
Firefly Fan Since September 20th, 2002 - Browncoat Since Birth
BTR1701
<mair_fheal-756E6...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> In article <8gn4f21qbd0rdpprc...@4ax.com>,
> George W Harris <gha...@mundsprung.com> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 25 Aug 2006 01:57:51 GMT, Opus the Penguin
> > <opusthepen...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > :mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> > :(mair_...@yahoo.com) wrote:
> > :
> > :> i guess its just my darn librul fuzzy wuzzy morality
> > :> but i find warrens story another sad one
> > :> i think as late as -i was made to you- if he had met a sympathetic
> > :> woman instead of katrina and gotten beyond his childhood trauma
> > :> he couldve been a contender
> > :
> > :instead of a bum
> > :which is what he is
> >
> > Are you saying he's glad what he done to her?
> > He's glad what he done?
>
> so
> hows that bipartite morality going for you?
How's that inability to appreciate a humorously quoted movie going for
*you*?
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
do keep up binky
Lydia Nickerson
>In article <1156454590.5...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> "Clairel" <reld...@usa.net> wrote:
>> --Really? Are you including all of the times Spike just stood
>> wistfully under a tree outside Buffy's house? I don't exactly call
>> that spying. I just call that being lovelorn.
>People have been arrested for stalking for a lot less than that.
>Take off the Spike-colored glasses for a minute and see the behavior for
>what it really is.
Oy. Like real life is that simple. Stalking presumes that the person
being stalked feels afraid and/or powerless. They feel as if a predator
was, um, stalking them. That isn't Buffy's reaction to Spike's various
ploys to follow and watch her. Stalking has a lot more to do with what
the victim feels than the exact behavior of the pursuer.
Assault isn't defined as a certain level of physical violence, but a
reasonable belief on the part of the victim that they could come to
harm. Hence, although I had a crazy man hit me between the shoulders,
it wasn't legally assault unless I said that I thought he was going to
hurt me. Likewise, it's not stalking unless it bugs Buffy enough to call
it stalking. And even then, she's an odd sort of prey to stalk, given
that everytime she gets annoyed enough with Spike, she slugs him in the
face. That really, really doesn't look like stalking to me.
A great deal of crime is subjective. Weird but true.
--
----
Lydia Nickerson ly...@demesne.com ly...@dd-b.net
Lydia Nickerson
>I think Spike's made it abundantly clear that he feels empathy for
>Buffy. This goes at least back to when Buffy found out her mother was
>ill. He's also got some sort of feeling for Dawn.
>But those are the two special cases. He's not completely human.
Who is?
Being cruel and clueless is also part of being human. If Spike is
deemed to be not human because he acts out of self-interest, is
self-centered, and can be cruel, well, those don't seem like very good
arguments to me.
Spike asks Buffy several times if a person can't change. She tells him
he can't because he's not a person. But he does change. His stepping
away from much of his conniving self-interest where Buffy is concerned
is a significant character change.
I think that the soul is not empathy, per se. Humans have souls by
definition, and some of them have far less empathy that Spike at his
worst. I think that the soul is the possibility of redemption. Spike
is indicating the possibility of redemption. I think he's "growing" a
soul.
BTR1701
Lydia Nickerson <lydy@AUTO> wrote:
> BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
> >In article <1156454590.5...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> > "Clairel" <reld...@usa.net> wrote:
>
> >> --Really? Are you including all of the times Spike just stood
> >> wistfully under a tree outside Buffy's house? I don't exactly call
> >> that spying. I just call that being lovelorn.
>
> >People have been arrested for stalking for a lot less than that.
>
> >Take off the Spike-colored glasses for a minute and see the behavior for
> >what it really is.
>
> Oy. Like real life is that simple. Stalking presumes that the person
> being stalked feels afraid and/or powerless.
No, it doesn't. "Stalking" doesn't presume anything. The various
stalking statutes are clear as to their elements and fear/impotence of
the stalkee is not one of them.
> Assault isn't defined as a certain level of physical violence, but a
> reasonable belief on the part of the victim that they could come to
> harm. Hence, although I had a crazy man hit me between the shoulders,
> it wasn't legally assault unless I said that I thought he was going to
> hurt me. Likewise, it's not stalking unless it bugs Buffy enough to call
> it stalking.
No, you've drawn a false analogy (as well as mis-state the elements of
assault).
Assault statutes require that the victim be in imminent fear of a
battery for an assault to have occurred (not a reasonable belief of
harm). A battery is merely an offensive touching. A person does not need
to be in fear of harm for an assault to have occurred.
However, there is no such "fear of the victim" element in the typical
stalking statute, therefore comparing stalking to assault is a false
analogy.
Lydia Nickerson
>Yeah, Xander struggles to express himself. That's who he is. The turn of
>the conversation and Anya's attitude took him off the path he practiced for
>and imagined and dreamed would hapen. So he's caught not knowing what to
>say. But he's not confused about what he feels. He wants to be with Anya.
>Every day. He just doesn't want to get married.
Xander's good at the heart-felt, unless he's trying to talk about
himself. He can have some remarkable blind spots. Also, he's good with
quips, but terrible at this kind of conversation. The interesting thing
about the repetitive "I love you"s is that it's a statement about
himself. He never seems to understand how deeply betrayed Anya feels.
He wants a reconciliation, but he never engages with what it is that
makes Anya want to be married so much. Why is it so important to her?
On this issue, Xander is entirely self-centered.
>This sequence is where we really see how she's failed to acquire a human
>regard for others.
Sounds like some of my exes.
>But I look on this moment more as a consequence. Tara left Willow because
>she felt she had to, not because she wanted to. I expect that she's yearned
>for what she's lost ever since.
Clearly she does. Remember what she says to Dawn when Dawn asks her if
she still loves Willow? "Very much." Tara did what she had to do in
order to remain her self, in order to be able to own herself. If she
had failed to act, she would have been subsumed by Willow, and then
their relationship would be a lie. She left in part because she loved
Willow.
>Indeed, I think a big part of this moment
>is simply being horny. I don't mean that crassly. It's all part of the
>whole, and the sexual longing just adds to the urgency.
I'm all in favor of sex, and I agree that sex is a strong motivator, but
I don't think that is why Tara comes to Willow. I think it's just love
-- if there is such as thing as "just" love. Willow's been clean, and
improving steadily. Willow approaches Tara carefully, trying hard not
to make assumptions, trying hard not to be manipulative, trying, in
fact, not to do all the things that she did that caused Tara to leave.
>The big thing, though, is Tara watching the lives of her friends crumble
>before her. She's seeing afresh how fragile even the strongest
>relationships can be - and how fleeting. But this time with the sense that
>she better grab it while she can. (So, yes, even this serves as
>foreshadowing.) I really appreciate her little speech reciting the things
>that need to be worked out to make it last. It's both the show and the
>character acknowledging that a kiss doesn't fix everything. But you need
>the kiss too. And sometimes you need it sooner than the other stuff.
>Whether or not she acted premature for the long picture is academic now.
>But I think I understand the urgency and am more than fine with it.
Neither one of them has gotten laid in a while, I expect, so I agree
that some of the urgency comes from there. But Tara is taking a huge
leap of faith, here, based on her love for Willow. And Willow is taking
a huge chance, as well. Their relationship, regardless of fault or
blame, cost Willow a huge amount of pain. Sometimes, you just can't
ever get past the pain. Their intensity comes partly from the risk that
they know they are taking, and the sudden break-down of walls between
them. Sometimes, when sex is really good, it's almost as if you were in
your lover's skin. That, I think, is what they're really reaching
for. Pent up desire helps it along, but this is about intimacy far
more than passion -- not that they're short on either one.
This is a scene that always makes me cry. When Tara says, "Could you
just be here, kissing me?" it stabs me in the heart. It's one of the
most beautiful moments in Buffy, her willingness to gamble everything
she has and everything she is on the one woman she loves more than
anything. And it's the gift of grace, infinite and undeserved.
Grace. That's one of things that I have found over and over again in
Joss' work, and which makes me such a fan. Grace. Forgiveness.
Redeption.
One Bit Shy
news:44f3b428$0$34081$815e...@news.qwest.net...
I don't disagree with any of that. Just as clarification, when I switched
to mentioning seeing other people's lives crumble, I had moved past the sex
motivation - sex was not what I was talking about when I referred to urgency
and kissing in that paragraph. The urgency I was sensing (probably because
of the episode the scene is in) was to not risk losing something so precious
to the problems not yet completely resolved. Don't go the Xander/Anya
route. Take the gamble, as you put it, because it's too damned easy for it
all to slip away on the back of doubts.
OBS
Clairel
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Clairel wrote:
>
> > One episode ago Spike is asked to beat up a demon and bring it in
> > chains to Buffy's basement, so that Buffy's malady can be cured -- he's
> > asked to stay in her bedroom with her and make sure she drinks down her
> > medicine -- and now all of a sudden he's a sinister outsider instead of
> > a team member? I really wish the Scoobies would make up their minds.
>
> Especially after he did so well with the latter task...
--Do you really think that was the reason for the sudden suspiciousness
toward Spike in "Entropy"? I don't know, but I somehow think the gang
had other things to talk about than just "Hmm, who was responsible for
Buffy not drinking her antidote the first time when she should have?
Oh, Willow asked Spike to stay and watch her drink it! Well, let's all
shun him and make up accusations about him, then!". Actually, I
suspect that what with Buffy's apologies for almost kiling everybody,
and one thing and another, the conversation about why the first batch
of antidote got poured out of the cup never took place.
If you're assuming an off-screen conversation of the kind I outlined
above, please tell me. It's an idea that never occurred to me before.
Clairel
Clairel
--I guess that makes Romeo a stalker when he o'erperches the Capulets'
orchard wall with love's light wings, then.
In romantic fiction and drama, there is a fine old tradition of the
pining lover outside his lady-love's window or balcony. It has always
been considered sweet, touching, and perfectly proper. That's the
tradition I always placed s5 Spike in.
Clairel
Rowan Hawthorn
Well, that would depend, Clairel - was Juliet pounding Romeo about the
head and shoulders whenever she *caught* him at it? Constantly ordering
him in no uncertain terms to take a hike or she was gonna ram a piece of
wood through his heart and *kill* his ass? No? Gosh, then I guess the
scenarios really aren't all that similar after all, are they?
>
> In romantic fiction and drama, there is a fine old tradition of the
> pining lover outside his lady-love's window or balcony. It has always
> been considered sweet, touching, and perfectly proper. That's the
> tradition I always placed s5 Spike in.
Well, duh. I never would have guessed. Y'know, it very well *would* be
considered "sweet, touching, and perfectly proper" if the object of said
pining lover's affections are not averse to *receiving* those
attentions. Maybe even, as in so many of those old romance stories, if
her protests of "Fie, sir!" are just coy come-ons.
Otherwise, not. And I don't for one moment believe that if you were
being hounded by someone you disliked that you'd find it that way, either.
Don Sample
"Clairel" <reld...@usa.net> wrote:
If Juliet had told him repeatedly to go away, then yes, it would have
been stalking.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Lydia Nickerson
>In article <44f36e3c$0$34075$815e...@news.qwest.net>,
> Lydia Nickerson <lydy@AUTO> wrote:
>> BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>>
>> >In article <1156454590.5...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
>> > "Clairel" <reld...@usa.net> wrote:
>>
>> >> --Really? Are you including all of the times Spike just stood
>> >> wistfully under a tree outside Buffy's house? I don't exactly call
>> >> that spying. I just call that being lovelorn.
>>
>> >People have been arrested for stalking for a lot less than that.
>>
>> >Take off the Spike-colored glasses for a minute and see the behavior for
>> >what it really is.
>>
>> Oy. Like real life is that simple. Stalking presumes that the person
>> being stalked feels afraid and/or powerless.
>No, it doesn't. "Stalking" doesn't presume anything. The various
>stalking statutes are clear as to their elements and fear/impotence of
>the stalkee is not one of them.
If someone is following another person around in a manner that would be
illegal if the person being followed complains, it's not automatically
stalking and there isn't automatically an arrest. There has to be a
complainant. If you don't care, you don't complain.
Assault is much the same. It is defined as: An act "done with intent to
cause fear in another of immediate bodily harm or death" per the
Minnesota State Code. In practice, what that means is that if you don't
claim to have felt threatened, the authorities won't usually pay
attention.
I'd say that if Spike is attempting to be a stalker, he's singularly
abysmal at it.
maxims
Clairel wrote:
> --I guess that makes Romeo a stalker when he o'erperches the Capulets'
> orchard wall with love's light wings, then.
>
> In romantic fiction and drama, there is a fine old tradition of the
> pining lover outside his lady-love's window or balcony. It has always
> been considered sweet, touching, and perfectly proper. That's the
> tradition I always placed s5 Spike in.
Hmm, I must have missed the bit where Romeo sneaks into Casa Capulet
and steals Juliet's knickers.
maxims
BTR1701
Lydia Nickerson <lydy@AUTO> wrote:
> BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
> >In article <44f36e3c$0$34075$815e...@news.qwest.net>,
> > Lydia Nickerson <lydy@AUTO> wrote:
>
> >> BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> >>
> >> >In article <1156454590.5...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> >> > "Clairel" <reld...@usa.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >> --Really? Are you including all of the times Spike just stood
> >> >> wistfully under a tree outside Buffy's house? I don't exactly call
> >> >> that spying. I just call that being lovelorn.
> >>
> >> >People have been arrested for stalking for a lot less than that.
> >>
> >> >Take off the Spike-colored glasses for a minute and see the behavior for
> >> >what it really is.
> >>
> >> Oy. Like real life is that simple. Stalking presumes that the person
> >> being stalked feels afraid and/or powerless.
>
> >No, it doesn't. "Stalking" doesn't presume anything. The various
> >stalking statutes are clear as to their elements and fear/impotence of
> >the stalkee is not one of them.
>
> If someone is following another person around in a manner that would be
> illegal if the person being followed complains, it's not automatically
> stalking and there isn't automatically an arrest. There has to be a
> complainant.
Only because the cops don't know about it until someone complains. But
it's a common misconception that there can be no prosecution unless the
victim presses charges.
Clairel
--Hmm, well, let's see; I do recall Buffy in the episode where she
first finds out that the monks created Dawn (I remember it had the word
"Home" in the title), telling Spike to take a hike when she finds him
smoking cigarettes on the sidewalk. That was the first time since his
visit to Joyce in season 3 that Spike was shown anywhere near the
Summers house.
Then there are no more such incidents in the vicinity of the Summers
house until Fool For Love. At the end of the episode when Spike showed
up in Buffy's backyard, Buffy snapped at him at first ("What doyou want
now?"), but then ended up with him sitting beside her on the steps as
he comfortingly patted her shoulder. Evidently (to judge by Spike's
knowledge of Joyce's hospitalization when he was talking to Riley the
next day), Buffy on this occasion also confided in Spike about Joyce's
medical problems.
Next thing we have coming along, after the daytime Spike visit that
only Riley knew about, is Spike at the Summers house facing the Queller
Demon alongside Buffy. She seemed mildly exasperated upon finding he
had been rooting about in her basement, and more exasperated when his
struggles with the Queller Demon caused him to accidentally kick the
knife out of her hand, but in the end quite grateful when he threw the
knife back to her and, upon her defeat of the demon, offered her a
helping hand to get up off the floor. Standing there hand in hand with
Spike until Riley's sudden entrance, she didn't seem inclined to rebuff
Spike or scold him in any way.
We next see Buffy in "Into the Woods" reacting to Spike's midnight
appearance in her bedroom by, first, a pro-forma verbal threat, and
then by giving serious attention to his statement that there's
something she needs to see. She goes walking off beside Spike without
a word of complaint.
I'll leave out "Triangle" because Spike doesn't go to the Summers house
in that episode; his only interaction with Buffy is in the Bronze, and
it comes about by accident (he just happens to be there when Buffy
shows up). In "Checkpoint," though, Buffy seeks out Spike at his
residence, with her family in tow, and asks him to take care of them.
In "Blood Ties" Spike is hanging around outside the Summers house
trying to work up the nerve to venture in and give Buffy a birthday
present, but she doesn't discover him there and nothing comes of
Spike's plan -- Dawn comes along instead and derails it. (It seems
like rather a nice, friendly plan anyway -- a gift of a box of
chocolates, forsooth!)
Now, all this is prior to "Crush," and at the end of "Crush" it's quite
true that Buffy did close her door to Spike and she firmly told Spike
to leave her alone. And guess what? For the rest of season 5 after
"Crush" we never again see Spike try to enter the Summers house --
until she leads him to the house and invites him in herself in "The
Gift", and except for their meeting in a public place (the Spring
Fling) in AWMTLY, throughout the rest of season 5 Spike never takes the
initiative in approaching Buffy or communicating with Buffy. In
"Forever," he comes along with flowers which he clearly intended to
leave on the porch without ringing the doorbell or even including a
card with them. (I don't think dropping off some flowers anonymously
and then leaving without a word can be considered hanging around like a
stalker, do you?) In "Intervention," "Tough Love," and "Spiral," Buffy
comes to Spike for information and/or help -- he doesn't come to her.
So I'm not sure I'm seeing this pattern of Spike in season 5 repeatedly
showing up at the Summers house and repeatedly being punched in the
nose by Buffy and told to go away. I'm not even sure I see Buffy
disliking Spike most of the time during the timespan under discussion.
In "Crush" and IWMTLY, yeah, she's pissed. Before that and after that,
she seems to rely on Spike quite a bit, and welcomes his help and
advice. (Remember that rather sweet scene in the playground in "Blood
Ties," where Buffy confided in Spike all her anxieties about Dawn, and
told him he was right in the points he had been making about her
treatment of Dawn, whereupon he kindly reassured her that everything
would turn out all right?) His sudden, unasked-for appearances at her
house are seldom rebuffed or complained about.
Taking season 5 after "Out Of My Mind" as a whole, it seems to me
there's enough ambiguity and mixed signals from Buffy, at various
times, to preclude the simplistic picture being painted in some of the
posts on this thread, of Spike as a "stalker" continually and
unequivocally detested by Buffy and unwelcome to Buffy. It's actually
a lot more complicated than that. And there were many times in season
5 (though, I grant you, not all the time -- I was quite badly upset by
certain things in "Crush") when I thought it was sweet, touching, and
romantic.
Clairel
Rowan Hawthorn
> Rowan Hawthorn wrote:
Say the name with me: "Buff-ee"
It's not her house he's interested in, particularly when she's - y'know
- *not there*.
He shows up at Buffy's dorm in "The Initiative,"
Giles' apartment in "Pangs" (where Buffy happens to *be* at the time,)
He's chained through the early part of "Something Blue," but when he's
released he doesn't show any real inclination to get gone, staying at
Xander's place through "Hush" and "Doomed," moving out only when he's
evicted in "A New Man," and he keeps close enough tabs on Buffy and her
friends to be useful to Adam through "Yoko Factor" and "Primeval."
>
> Then there are no more such incidents in the vicinity of the Summers
> house until Fool For Love. At the end of the episode when Spike showed
> up in Buffy's backyard, Buffy snapped at him at first ("What doyou want
> now?"),
Sort of insinuates there were *more* such incidents, don't you think?
>
> In "Blood Ties" Spike is hanging around outside the Summers house
> trying to work up the nerve to venture in and give Buffy a birthday
> present, but she doesn't discover him there and nothing comes of
> Spike's plan -- Dawn comes along instead and derails it. (It seems
> like rather a nice, friendly plan anyway -- a gift of a box of
> chocolates, forsooth!)
Sure, stalkers never send gifts to their target...
> Taking season 5 after "Out Of My Mind" as a whole, it seems to me
> there's enough ambiguity and mixed signals from Buffy, at various
> times, to preclude the simplistic picture being painted in some of the
> posts on this thread, of Spike as a "stalker" continually and
> unequivocally detested by Buffy and unwelcome to Buffy. It's actually
> a lot more complicated than that. And there were many times in season
> 5 (though, I grant you, not all the time -- I was quite badly upset by
> certain things in "Crush") when I thought it was sweet, touching, and
> romantic.
That Buffy gave mixed signals there's no question. That Spike's
obsession was anything *but* sweet, touching and romantic is
questionable only to people so infatuated with Spike they don't *want*
to see how destructive a relationship it was. And it was never
portrayed in any other way; that was the whole point of it.
Don't get me wrong - like Faith, whom I didn't care for, I enjoyed the
drama that Spike's presence brought to the show. But not so much not to
see the relationship for what it was and what it was written as.
Don Sample
"Clairel" <reld...@usa.net> wrote:
> --Hmm, well, let's see; I do recall Buffy in the episode where she
> first finds out that the monks created Dawn (I remember it had the word
> "Home" in the title), telling Spike to take a hike when she finds him
> smoking cigarettes on the sidewalk. That was the first time since his
> visit to Joyce in season 3 that Spike was shown anywhere near the
> Summers house.
>
> Then there are no more such incidents in the vicinity of the Summers
> house until Fool For Love.
That we see.
> At the end of the episode when Spike showed
> up in Buffy's backyard,
Planning to kill her.
> Buffy snapped at him at first ("What doyou want
> now?"), but then ended up with him sitting beside her on the steps as
> he comfortingly patted her shoulder. Evidently (to judge by Spike's
> knowledge of Joyce's hospitalization when he was talking to Riley the
> next day), Buffy on this occasion also confided in Spike about Joyce's
> medical problems.
>
> Next thing we have coming along, after the daytime Spike visit that
> only Riley knew about,
During which Spike is sniffing Buffy's clothes, and stealing her
underwear.
> is Spike at the Summers house facing the Queller
> Demon alongside Buffy. She seemed mildly exasperated upon finding he
> had been rooting about in her basement,
And stealing pictures of her.
Clairel
--None of this is really relevant, since I'm only talking about Spike's
behavior after the end of OOMM, when he had the dream that revealed to
him that he was in love with Buffy. If he was before, he wasn't
consciously aware of it.
> > Then there are no more such incidents in the vicinity of the Summers
> > house until Fool For Love. At the end of the episode when Spike showed
> > up in Buffy's backyard, Buffy snapped at him at first ("What doyou want
> > now?"),
>
> Sort of insinuates there were *more* such incidents, don't you think?
--No, I thought her question was following along from the other
interactions they had had throughout the episode: interactions that
occurred at her instigation, because she sought him out for
information. I.e.: "You wanted me to buy you beer at the Bronze, you
wanted me to pay you money for info, you wanted to kiss me after the
martial arts demo outside the Bronze, now you show up in my back yard,
so what do you want *now*?" Like that.
> >
> > In "Blood Ties" Spike is hanging around outside the Summers house
> > trying to work up the nerve to venture in and give Buffy a birthday
> > present, but she doesn't discover him there and nothing comes of
> > Spike's plan -- Dawn comes along instead and derails it. (It seems
> > like rather a nice, friendly plan anyway -- a gift of a box of
> > chocolates, forsooth!)
>
> Sure, stalkers never send gifts to their target...
>
> > Taking season 5 after "Out Of My Mind" as a whole, it seems to me
> > there's enough ambiguity and mixed signals from Buffy, at various
> > times, to preclude the simplistic picture being painted in some of the
> > posts on this thread, of Spike as a "stalker" continually and
> > unequivocally detested by Buffy and unwelcome to Buffy. It's actually
> > a lot more complicated than that. And there were many times in season
> > 5 (though, I grant you, not all the time -- I was quite badly upset by
> > certain things in "Crush") when I thought it was sweet, touching, and
> > romantic.
>
> That Buffy gave mixed signals there's no question. That Spike's
> obsession was anything *but* sweet, touching and romantic is
> questionable only to people so infatuated with Spike they don't *want*
> to see how destructive a relationship it was. And it was never
> portrayed in any other way; that was the whole point of it.
--Well, you know, before I ever went online looking for BtVS discussion
forums, my only input other than my own responses to the episodes was
the occasional comment or two in TV Guide. And I clearly remember some
point in the fall of 2000, probably just prior to Fool For Love
(because after Fool For Love I was going online, and also Fool For Love
made the whole S/B thing so much more serious), when TV Guide gave a
short paragraph, probably by Matt Roush or somebody of that sort,
commenting on how much they were enjoying the ongoing story of Spike's
adorable crush on Buffy and how "sweet" it was. I'm pretty sure they
were only going on the basis of the "Home" episode (the one where he's
smoking cigarettes under the tree" and "Family," where he goes to the
Magic Box and saves Buffy's life from the invisible demon. And at the
time I read that paragraph in TV Guide, the adjectives "sweet" and
"adorable" seemed very appropriate to me. I remember agreeing
wholeheartedly, because I was captivated by Spike's bashful-swain
behavior in the "Home" episode.
I agree that Fool For Love changed things, made them darker, grittier,
and more powerful. I'm not forgetting that Spike brought a gun to
Buffy's backyard.
But the moment when his face softened with compassion, and he laid the
gun down without a thought! Who could not be moved by that?
So that's the ongoing story of my first impressions as a viewer, back
in 2000. And that's why I describe Spike's love for Buffy (circa fall
2000) the way I do.
Clairel
Rowan Hawthorn
There were *lots* of people who looked at it like that; there are also
lots of people who fall madly in love with real-life death-row inmates.
Don Sample
Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Clairel wrote:
> > --Well, you know, before I ever went online looking for BtVS discussion
> > forums, my only input other than my own responses to the episodes was
> > the occasional comment or two in TV Guide. And I clearly remember some
> > point in the fall of 2000, probably just prior to Fool For Love
> > (because after Fool For Love I was going online, and also Fool For Love
> > made the whole S/B thing so much more serious), when TV Guide gave a
> > short paragraph, probably by Matt Roush or somebody of that sort,
> > commenting on how much they were enjoying the ongoing story of Spike's
> > adorable crush on Buffy and how "sweet" it was.
>
> There were *lots* of people who looked at it like that; there are also
> lots of people who fall madly in love with real-life death-row inmates.
Emphasis on "madly."
Rowan Hawthorn
D'Hoffryn: "Well, that's where I was going with that, yeah..."
Clairel
--Those are two groups of people with little if any overlap.
Clairel
Rowan Hawthorn
May be, but they seem to have some attitudes and fantasies in common...
peachy ashie passion
Perhaps.
Personally I see a vast difference between the death row inmate
having a crush and falling in love with the death row inmate.