AOQ Review 7-19: "Empty Places"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Seven, Episode 19: "Empty Places"
(or "Mr. Preantepenultimate")
Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
Director: James A. Contner
Dead Sunnydale. The mass exodus scene in the teaser and first act is
composed well; there's a good "bad" feel to it. The classic
visual of Clem just driving along in the middle of daytime traffic
seems almost like a payoff gag after years of seeing what Sunnydalians
are capable of ignoring. He also helps set a tone right away, since
the episode is full of sad comic relief, smiles that don't touch
characters' eyes, and so on. Nonetheless, the funny is funny, like
"not that I swing cats, or eat, nope. Heh. Cuttin' way back.
Cholesterol... morals, I mean, morals." and Willow's Jedi mind
trick. I don't know how to describe the directorial choice, but I
love how the fade-out at the end of the teaser is done.
One has to wonder why the doctors don't, you know, tell Xander the
latest news about his condition instead of passing it along via his
friends. Anyway, the hospital bed scene is pretty clearly the best
part of the episode for me. Talking about his injury as bluntly as he
can, as if trying to force the idea to sink in, while saying everything
flippantly as if trying to deflate it seems very much like him, as does
the part where he and Willow try their hardest to banter their way to a
good laugh. The distance in which he and Buffy don't have much to
say to each other is suitably uncomfortable, and the "oh, Willow...
please don't" bit is absolutely heart-wrenching.
Not content with last time, we need another confrontation with Preacher
Tightpants. One gets the impression that he doesn't like women. Not
much new of interest on that front, although those look like some
pretty painful falls for Buffy and for Gellar's stuntwoman. This
season has presented a few instances, rare elsewhere in the series, in
which a Buffyverse villain could kill the hero if he wanted to but
doesn't... given how having her around is generally death to any Big
Bad plan, this one had better be a good one. I'll also point out
that I like how the ending of the episode makes it unclear whether
Caleb's "she's just so ready to walk them right into it" idea is
being fulfilled or dodged by the gang's choices.
Faith taking the MC5000 out for some drinking and fighting works all
right for what it is (i.e. a way to move the plot along), especially
since it's a pretty good fight. Here I'm definitely starting to
feel the pacing seeming a little askew. Faith shows up, takes the
group out for one dance, and within an episode is the center of their
world. That part doesn't feel so natural. It's like the show is
in a hurry to move the stuff with the potentials to Point B as quickly
as possible, since it's anxious to have the last three episodes for
other things. More mirroring each other ensues for the Slayers, with
Buffy being the one to start throwing punches and Faith holding back
for once.
Is this the on-screen debut of Nerf Herder? May be one of the signs...
"Why are you always standing up for her?" The years of friendship
and world saving may have something to do with it. I notice how hard
I'm looking for reasons to feel justified in my somewhat irrational
hatred of Kennedy for the fan-ish reasons already discussed.
Objectively she's generally been more like Riley in deserving
disinterest rather than outright loathing. But she comes off as a
bitch here. More about her gradual loss of the initial optimism and
trust that originally defined her might've been a theoretically
interesting Chosen's-eye (or "Lower Decks," to Trekkies) view of
things, but the show seems to have, perhaps wisely, given up on making
anyone particularly care about her story. Anya's pretty bitchy as
well; it's interesting that she's nursing a grudge from
"Selfless" that hasn't gone away with time the way such things
sometimes do on the show. Vengeance.
The designated comic relief subplot concerns Spike and Andrew getting a
little bit of information about their enemy. The continuity porn here
is a part guilty (and part not) pleasure. I like the return of the
football helmet. The moment Andrew started talking about fried snacks,
I immediately thought about Spike's interest in the onion blossom
thing from "Triangle," and then the episode actually went ahead
with said reference. And he's gone ahead and learned the recipe.
Ah, continuity porn.
The end result of "Empty Places" is that everyone gangs up on Buffy
in a somewhat contrived scene, getting her in a crowded room and
criticizing her one at a time, to air their concerns. I'm going to
speculate that this is one of the things people have in mind when they
complain about how they sympathize with Buffy over the other Scoobies
and don't like when the show challenges her like this, or when they
see character assassination in the way the supporting cast is written.
This is another situation in which something happens that's not at
all the direction I'd have chosen to take things, but here it mostly
holds together as a consequence of what's come before. That is, this
is the end result of the "I am the law" mentality. It's also
another example of what S7 has tried to do several times, going back to
the beginning from an adult viewpoint. One thing that Buffy at sixteen
never had much use for was adults who talked past her, saying "I have
more experience, therefore I know what's best for you." Giles was
usually right in the early seasons, but our hero had to find that out
for herself (in time for him to then show off his fallibility, of
course, but I digress). Here she's never unsympathetic as she tries
to do the right thing for this demanding group, but it's not totally
inaccurate to say that somewhere along the way she's become that
person who thinks she was born into authority.
As for her closest and less close friends abandoning her, the setup is
again there. It's been long enough since "Showtime" (and most of
the kids weren't there then) that people have had time to get bored
with the rousing speeches (a serious idea introduced in a funny way in
"Storyteller" and LMPTM) and the attempted discipline. And then
something like not only the "Dirty Girls" debacle but how she
responds afterward. So at least it's a combination of factors: not
just her not being any fun, or just seeing an alternative Slayer, or
just Spike, or just DG. As for Xander and Willow, they're
convincingly reluctant to say much, only contributing a few
to-the-point sentences apiece, and look like it's hurting them.
Basically, if one must tell a story about all of Buffy's friends
refusing to follow her, this is a reasonable way to do it. Faith's
role is nicely handled here, unintentionally setting herself up as the
instigator just by being the first one offering concrete objections.
So I'm okay with the ideas, up until Dawn.
My two complaints are first that Dawn throwing Buffy out of the house
seems like a needlessly melodramatic coda, done to provide a big moment
rather than as an organic outcome of the rest of the discussion. And
second that while I can imagine Wil and Xander being part of the
uncertainty, it doesn't play right that after seeing our hero have
everything taken away, *Faith* is the only one who even goes after her.
When Faith is the most compassionate person in your scene, that seems
like a problem. I do like the final B/F exchange, so glad to have
that, but seriously, people.
So...
One-sentence summary: I do not agree with everything the show does, but
I will defend to the cancellation its right to do it competently.
AOQ rating: Good
[Season Seven so far:
1) "Lessons" - Good
2) "Beneath You" - Decent
3) "Same Time, Same Place" - Excellent
4) "Help" - Good
5) "Selfless" - SUPERLATIVE
6) "Him" - Bad
7) "Conversations With Dead People" - Good
8) "Sleeper" - Decent
9) "Never Leave Me" - Good
10) "Bring On The Night" - Decent
11) "Showtime" - Good
12) "Potential" - Good
13) "The Killer In Me" - Weak
14) "First Date" - Decent
15) "Get It Done" - Decent
16) "Storyteller" - Good
17) "Lies My Parents Told Me" - Decent
18) "Dirty Girls" - Good
19) "Empty Places" - Good]
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> My two complaints are first that Dawn throwing Buffy out of the house
> seems like a needlessly melodramatic coda, done to provide a big moment
> rather than as an organic outcome of the rest of the discussion. And
> second that while I can imagine Wil and Xander being part of the
> uncertainty, it doesn't play right that after seeing our hero have
> everything taken away, *Faith* is the only one who even goes after her.
> When Faith is the most compassionate person in your scene, that seems
> like a problem. I do like the final B/F exchange, so glad to have
> that, but seriously, people.
My comment on this is that it wasn't Dawn, or anyone else, who kicked
Buffy out of the house. Buffy kicked herself out. She's the one who
said that she couldn't stay in the house if everyone didn't follow her
lead. The others just held her at her word.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> composed well; there's a good "bad" feel to it. The classic
> visual of Clem just driving along in the middle of daytime traffic
> seems almost like a payoff gag after years of seeing what Sunnydalians
> are capable of ignoring. He also helps set a tone right away, since
ignore what? hes just a guy with a bad skin condition
> One has to wonder why the doctors don't, you know, tell Xander the
> latest news about his condition instead of passing it along via his
one less character in the scene
werent you asking about anya and faith?
we now know at least offscreen how faith deals with her
and how suddenly the cot becomes an uncomfortable place
for potentials to sit on
> Not content with last time, we need another confrontation with Preacher
> Tightpants. One gets the impression that he doesn't like women. Not
> much new of interest on that front, although those look like some
i was also thinking what a shame
xander was working on the school all summer
and it doesnt make even one full year before being abandoned
we do what we can for the future but you dont know what comes until it comes
> which a Buffyverse villain could kill the hero if he wanted to but
> doesn't... given how having her around is generally death to any Big
> Bad plan, this one had better be a good one. I'll also point out
the plan has been consistent - to kill all the potentials
then kill the slayers and there will be no succession
then the first can unleash the turok-han unopposed on earth
we dont get a detailed explanation that the plan will work
but quentin and giles have believed it to be signficant threat
so i take it on faith that the first has a real chance at success
so buffy and faith are to be kept alive until everyone else dies
> The designated comic relief subplot concerns Spike and Andrew getting a
> little bit of information about their enemy. The continuity porn here
> is a part guilty (and part not) pleasure. I like the return of the
also theres no mission in gilroy
lot of garlic
the missions are san juan bautista to the south
and santa clara (or san jose) to the north
and santa cruz to the west
> The end result of "Empty Places" is that everyone gangs up on Buffy
> in a somewhat contrived scene, getting her in a crowded room and
> criticizing her one at a time, to air their concerns. I'm going to
> speculate that this is one of the things people have in mind when they
> complain about how they sympathize with Buffy over the other Scoobies
note that they dont vote buffy off the island because of the winery
they vote her off the island because she insisted on doing the same thing again
she is not learning from her mistakes
she agreed to protect potentials and she started off fine
but then she gets obsessed with spike to the endangerment of everyone else
she makes tactical error (which can be excused through inexperience)
but then she insists on repeating the error
perhaps hoping to beat caleb if she is proactive with pep
shes no longer on the same mission as the rest
so she has to leave the rest until one or both sides agree what the mission is
> and don't like when the show challenges her like this, or when they
> see character assassination in the way the supporting cast is written.
its only character assassination
if you assume everyone is supposed to obey her without question
and that she is queen by divine right
a slayer was supposed to be a single agent operating alone
if she gets past the ego thing she can be a contributing member of the group
but not necessarily as their leader
> As for her closest and less close friends abandoning her, the setup is
> again there. It's been long enough since "Showtime" (and most of
or from their point of view she abandoned them
> My two complaints are first that Dawn throwing Buffy out of the house
> seems like a needlessly melodramatic coda, done to provide a big moment
remember conversation with dead people?
joyce (or the first evil wearing joyces skin) warned dawn
that buffy would choose against her
its been shown a few times that dawn is still thinking baout this
from dawns point of view buffy has abandoned her and everything she cares about
and now with a warning from she believes her mum
she feels to compelled to take the offensive
because the best defense is a good offense
> everything taken away, *Faith* is the only one who even goes after her.
> When Faith is the most compassionate person in your scene, that seems
> like a problem. I do like the final B/F exchange, so glad to have
> that, but seriously, people.
whats nice is that it shows buffy is not totally about buffys pride
shes also concerned about the potentials
even if she couldnt figure out how to cope with them
meow arf meow - they are performing horrible experiments in space
major grubert is watching you - beware the bakalite
there can only be one or two - the airtight garage has you neo
drifter
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 19: "Empty Places"
> (or "Mr. Preantepenultimate")
> Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> Director: James A. Contner
> Faith taking the MC5000 out
"MC5000."
They do seem to be multiplying like wire coat hangers, don't they?
--
Kel
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own."
Stephen Tempest
>Nonetheless, the funny is funny, like
>"not that I swing cats, or eat, nope. Heh. Cuttin' way back.
>Cholesterol... morals, I mean, morals." and Willow's Jedi mind
>trick.
Just a comment on that... she's using magic to control people's minds,
just like she did to Tara back in season 6. (Except for a less selfish
motive). The show doesn't present this in contect as being morally
quesitonable... but I do wonder if this is the effects of Buffy's
harsh words in 'Get It Done'. Willow's willing to use her abilities
for the cause again.
>One has to wonder why the doctors don't, you know, tell Xander the
>latest news about his condition instead of passing it along via his
>friends. Anyway, the hospital bed scene is pretty clearly the best
>part of the episode for me. Talking about his injury as bluntly as he
>can, as if trying to force the idea to sink in, while saying everything
>flippantly as if trying to deflate it seems very much like him, as does
>the part where he and Willow try their hardest to banter their way to a
>good laugh. The distance in which he and Buffy don't have much to
>say to each other is suitably uncomfortable, and the "oh, Willow...
>please don't" bit is absolutely heart-wrenching.
Definitely a scene to go on one of those top ten lists of scenes
people do. :)
Notice how Buffy can come across - and probably does to Xander and
Willow - as distant, distracted, and uncaring? Whereas we can see
she's tormented by guilt and trying to hide it. Still is when she gets
home - where it's *Faith* who notices and tells the others to back
off. Looks like Faith is secretly developing a real sense of
compassion - and that she also has some experience about being
tormented by guilt and trying to hide it.
>Faith taking the MC5000 out for some drinking and fighting works all
>right for what it is (i.e. a way to move the plot along), especially
>since it's a pretty good fight. Here I'm definitely starting to
>feel the pacing seeming a little askew. Faith shows up, takes the
>group out for one dance, and within an episode is the center of their
>world.
Hmm. I wouldn't go that far. But they're bound to be extremely
interested in her - she is another Slayer. And she turns up just when
they're losing confidence in Buffy... so of course they're going to
fixate on her as the alternative.
>The end result of "Empty Places" is that everyone gangs up on Buffy
>in a somewhat contrived scene, getting her in a crowded room and
>criticizing her one at a time, to air their concerns.
I'm sure I won't be the only one to point out that this is a pretty
clear parody of reality TV...
>My two complaints are first that Dawn throwing Buffy out of the house
>seems like a needlessly melodramatic coda, done to provide a big moment
>rather than as an organic outcome of the rest of the discussion.
It's Buffy who lays down the ultimatum... Dawn just calls her bluff.
And you can even see the compassion there... she knows that staying in
the house while not being the leader would be torture for her sister,
so advises her to leave instead.
An interesting comparison here would be Wesley taking over from Angel
as head of Angel Investigations.
>And
>second that while I can imagine Wil and Xander being part of the
>uncertainty, it doesn't play right that after seeing our hero have
>everything taken away, *Faith* is the only one who even goes after her.
> When Faith is the most compassionate person in your scene, that seems
>like a problem. I do like the final B/F exchange, so glad to have
>that, but seriously, people.
Dawn, Willow and Xander are feeling much too guilty about what they've
just done to Buffy to be able to face her right now. I particularly
liked Rona's "Ding-dong, the witch is dead" comment, and Dawn
immediately snapping at her to shut up.
Plus like I said above, Faith _is_ developing compassion. She's on
this whole redemption gig, yo?
Stephen
jil...@hotmail.com
some of the viewers, too. Buffy FEELS that there really IS something
in that winery that she should have. She knows it on a gut level.
Unfortunately, no one else does and she can't reason with them on a gut
instinct.
Yes, she did choose to leave instead of doing what they say. Their
anger is not without justification. Damn her because her plan got two
girls killed, Rona a broken arm and Xander lost an eye. We know the
whys from their side. And that they don't seem to care that she's
teaching them to protect themselves, wearing herself to exhaustion
because if she goes to sleep, one girl in a house FULL of them might
decide to off herself and somehow no one will notice until all there is
to find is a corpse.
Of course, only we who were watching have an inkling that the whole
plan of Caleb and The First is to get Buffy away from the others.
After all, since she is particularly the one they don't want to kill
yet... she's only in the way while she's with them.
As an additional point, it's only Buffy's group (or just Buffy who
knows) who thinks "Potentials, Faith then me." Perhaps the line is so
screwed up because of her ressurrection that now Faith's death won't
call a new Slayer.
jil...@hotmail.com
"If you were watching ANGEL you might suspect another reason for this
mass exodus at this time!" Well, except for Clem.
Elisi
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 19: "Empty Places"
> (or "Mr. Preantepenultimate")
> Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> Director: James A. Contner
>
> Dead Sunnydale. The mass exodus scene in the teaser and first act is
> composed well; there's a good "bad" feel to it.
Another instance of 'foregettyitis' only working up to a point.
> The classic
> visual of Clem just driving along in the middle of daytime traffic
> seems almost like a payoff gag after years of seeing what Sunnydalians
> are capable of ignoring. He also helps set a tone right away, since
> the episode is full of sad comic relief, smiles that don't touch
> characters' eyes, and so on.
I'm rather impressed with the way they manged to capture such an
all-pervading sense of hopelessness, making your heart sink lower and
lower as you watch. Buffy is excellent in this - the way she
desperately tries to keep her composure, that little half-smile when
she says "It's OK" or "I'm fine" for the umpteenth time and
you can see how she curls further and further into a little ball, away
from everyone.
> One has to wonder why the doctors don't, you know, tell Xander the
> latest news about his condition instead of passing it along via his
> friends.
Maybe Buffy went to talk to the doctor, and then said that she'd be
happy to tell him - the doctor might have been busy packing up?
> Anyway, the hospital bed scene is pretty clearly the best
> part of the episode for me. Talking about his injury as bluntly as he
> can, as if trying to force the idea to sink in, while saying everything
> flippantly as if trying to deflate it seems very much like him, as does
> the part where he and Willow try their hardest to banter their way to a
> good laugh. The distance in which he and Buffy don't have much to
> say to each other is suitably uncomfortable, and the "oh, Willow...
> please don't" bit is absolutely heart-wrenching.
Breaks my heart - a beautiful scene.
> Not content with last time, we need another confrontation with Preacher
> Tightpants. One gets the impression that he doesn't like women. Not
> much new of interest on that front, although those look like some
> pretty painful falls for Buffy and for Gellar's stuntwoman. This
> season has presented a few instances, rare elsewhere in the series, in
> which a Buffyverse villain could kill the hero if he wanted to but
> doesn't... given how having her around is generally death to any Big
> Bad plan, this one had better be a good one.
Well The Fist is unkillable, and she can't fight the giant army all by
herself... so it's just playing around. As Caleb says "I'm gonna take
such sweet pleasure in taming you."
Also, this time I noticed a poster on the door in the background. It
reads:
People
can
ALTER
their lives by altering their
ATTITUDES
I *love* stuff like that!
> I'll also point out
> that I like how the ending of the episode makes it unclear whether
> Caleb's "she's just so ready to walk them right into it" idea is
> being fulfilled or dodged by the gang's choices.
We'll see, won't we?
> That part doesn't feel so natural. It's like the show is
> in a hurry to move the stuff with the potentials to Point B as quickly
> as possible, since it's anxious to have the last three episodes for
> other things.
I think it's more the fact that Faith actually engages with them. As
she says later Buffy barely knows their names. I'll get back to that
point.
> I notice how hard
> I'm looking for reasons to feel justified in my somewhat irrational
> hatred of Kennedy for the fan-ish reasons already discussed.
> Objectively she's generally been more like Riley in deserving
> disinterest rather than outright loathing. But she comes off as a
> bitch here.
I just want to point out that she seems genuinely sorry for her
inadvertent slip earlier on.
> Anya's pretty bitchy as
> well; it's interesting that she's nursing a grudge from
> "Selfless" that hasn't gone away with time the way such things
> sometimes do on the show. Vengeance.
Although her and Andrew's lecture is wonderful.
> The designated comic relief subplot concerns Spike and Andrew getting a
> little bit of information about their enemy. The continuity porn here
> is a part guilty (and part not) pleasure. I like the return of the
> football helmet. The moment Andrew started talking about fried snacks,
> I immediately thought about Spike's interest in the onion blossom
> thing from "Triangle," and then the episode actually went ahead
> with said reference. And he's gone ahead and learned the recipe.
> Ah, continuity porn.
"Tell anyone we had this conversation and I'll bite you!" :)
But it seems Buffy _is_ on the right track:
"It is not for thee. It is for her alone to wield."
Hmmmm....
Also we see that there are nice church people out there.
> This is another situation in which something happens that's not at
> all the direction I'd have chosen to take things, but here it mostly
> holds together as a consequence of what's come before. That is, this
> is the end result of the "I am the law" mentality. It's also
> another example of what S7 has tried to do several times, going back to
> the beginning from an adult viewpoint. <snip> it's not totally
> inaccurate to say that somewhere along the way she's become that
> person who thinks she was born into authority.
In the shooting script there's more of an emphasis on the fact that
she's too worn out to see clearly and should take some time off, but
essentially it's the same. Anyway, what always strikes me is that Buffy
is finally back on track. Until now she's been reacting to things,
because she doesn't have a clue where to start. Willfully walking
into Caleb's trap in 'Dirty Girls' is (at least in part) about
trying anything at all, because it's better than doing nothing. But
suddenly she's had an epiphany - she knows what to do and why. She
can take the initiative, _finally_. There is a certainty to her
that's been lacking for a long time. And then everything comes
crashing down around her...
Pondering this scene, I came up with a very strange parallel that yet
somehow made sense. Compare please:
1) BUFFY: I-I don't understand this. For 7 years, I've kept us safe
by doing this- exactly this, making the hard decisions. And now,
what- suddenly you're all acting like you can't trust me?
XANDER: I'm trying to see your point here, Buff... but I guess it must
be a little bit to my left... 'cause I just don't.
2) BUFFY: Then what? What else do you want from me, Riley? I've given
you everything that I have, I've given you my heart, my body and soul!
RILEY: You say that, but I don't feel it. I just don't feel it.
You can feel the frustration in both scenes, because Buffy feels that
she did _everything_ right and suddenly - out of nowhere as far as she
can see - it's all gone wrong. And - oh - oh - it's 'Help' all
over again! She did things the way she thought she had to, and now
there's a dead girl (= trust) at her feet. Dead because of _heart_
failure! Wow. This is good. Because in both cases Buffy has been doing
the job without engaging her heart:
1) BUFFY: You sent away the one person that's been watching my
back-again.
GILES: We're all watching your back.
BUFFY: Funny... that's not really what it feels like.
(Buffy has been cutting herself off something fierce, cutting people
out - except for Spike.)
2) WILLOW: The pain is not a friend.
BUFFY: But then I can't help thinking, isn't that where the fire comes
from? Can a nice safe relationship be that intense? It's nuts, but part
of me
believes that real love and passion have to go hand in hand with pain
and fighting-
And both times, Xander - "The _Heart_ of the Slayer machine" - was
a fundamental part of things: In 'Into The Woods' he urged Buffy to
open her heart, in 'Empty Places' he has been injured, and cannot
support her anymore.
The problem is of course that she was trying to protect herself from
pain, which as we know is the key thing for a Slayer (just to make sure
this is the most quoted part of BtVS ever):
BUFFY: I'm full of love? I'm not losing it?
FIRST SLAYER: Only if you reject it. Love is pain, and the Slayer
forges strength from pain. Love ... give ... forgive. Risk the pain. It
is your nature. Love will bring you to your gift.
Because we know what rejecting love and pain leads to:
Angelus: If we could live without passion, maybe we'd know some kind of
peace. But we would be hollow. _Empty rooms_, shuttered and dank...
Without passion, we'd be truly dead.
Buffy has been deadening herself step by step - the confrontation
doesn't come out of nowhere (much like the arguments in 'The Yoko
Factor').
Another thing the ending always reminds me of is the end of 'Becoming':
"That's everything, huh? No weapons, no friends. No hope. Take all
that away and what's left?"
What's left of Buffy? Can she come back from this?
> One-sentence summary: I do not agree with everything the show does, but
> I will defend to the cancellation its right to do it competently.
That's very well put.
> AOQ rating: Good
Agreed.
Rowan Hawthorn
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 19: "Empty Places"
> (or "Mr. Preantepenultimate")
> Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> Director: James A. Contner
>
>
> latest news about his condition instead of passing it along via his
> friends.
Oh, come on - after watching Buffy wear Giles down all these years, you
really think a mere *doctor* would hold out??
> Anyway, the hospital bed scene is pretty clearly the best
> part of the episode for me. Talking about his injury as bluntly as he
> can, as if trying to force the idea to sink in, while saying everything
> flippantly as if trying to deflate it seems very much like him, as does
> the part where he and Willow try their hardest to banter their way to a
> good laugh. The distance in which he and Buffy don't have much to
> say to each other is suitably uncomfortable, and the "oh, Willow...
> please don't" bit is absolutely heart-wrenching.
Yeah, that's the word. AH & NB play off each other so well.
>
> Not content with last time, we need another confrontation with Preacher
> Tightpants. One gets the impression that he doesn't like women.
But he's so subtle. What tipped you off?
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Rowan Hawthorn
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 19: "Empty Places"
> (or "Mr. Preantepenultimate")
> Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> Director: James A. Contner
>
>
> right for what it is (i.e. a way to move the plot along), especially
> since it's a pretty good fight. Here I'm definitely starting to
> feel the pacing seeming a little askew. Faith shows up, takes the
> group out for one dance, and within an episode is the center of their
> world. That part doesn't feel so natural. It's like the show is
> in a hurry to move the stuff with the potentials to Point B as quickly
> as possible, since it's anxious to have the last three episodes for
> other things.
It also mirrors the way Faith first appeared and immediately became such
a focus of attention (particularly by Xander...)
BTR1701
"jil...@hotmail.com" <jil...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> And again, we see them forget all about Slayer instinct. Well, and
> some of the viewers, too. Buffy FEELS that there really IS something
> in that winery that she should have. She knows it on a gut level.
> Unfortunately, no one else does and she can't reason with them on a gut
> instinct.
If it's Slayer instinct, then Faith's instincts are just as credible as
Buffy's.
Jeff Jacoby
> And again, we see them forget all about Slayer instinct. Well, and
> some of the viewers, too.
They didn't forget. They followed her instincts, albeit
with some reluctance, when she decided to ignore their
advice and attack the first time.
> Buffy FEELS that there really IS something
> in that winery that she should have. She knows it on a gut level.
> Unfortunately, no one else does and she can't reason with them on a gut
> instinct.
She's not offering anything new or different this time
around to convince them.
Jeff
hayes62
But it's not just an instinct or a feeling. Buffy's not stupid and
she's been in this game for long enough to pay attention to what the
bad guys say and figure out why they're saying it. As she explains,
Caleb came to see her at the school (and not to kill her or she'd be
dead). So why would Caleb want to tell her she needs to focus on the
school? Either he's attempting to lure her there for another trap or
he's trying to distract her from wondering what he's doing at the
winery. If it were bait he'd be more obvious about it like he was the
last time. So it sounds like (and Faith agrees that it's a neat theory)
he has got something at the winery he doesn't want her to find out
about.
Where she goes wrong is in assuming that want he wants to prevent is
another (probably doomed) assault rather than, for example,
reconnaissance. That's probably a bad call. From Caleb's point of view,
after that rather decisive victory he's reason to be confident that,
were he to just let things be, they'd be unlikely to try a similar
attack. But as long as the only place they know he has a base is the
winery they might well make an attempt to get more intel on it. Buffy's
thinking in terms of power instead of knowledge.
~H
Don Sample
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > threads.
> >
> > Anya's pretty bitchy as
> > well; it's interesting that she's nursing a grudge from
> > "Selfless" that hasn't gone away with time the way such things
> > sometimes do on the show. Vengeance.
>
> Although her and Andrew's lecture is wonderful.
We also learned here that the original Ubie got lucky in his first fight
with Buffy. If she'd just pushed that stake in a bit harder, he'd have
been dust.
>
> But it seems Buffy _is_ on the right track:
>
> "It is not for thee. It is for her alone to wield."
>
> Hmmmm....
>
> Also we see that there are nice church people out there.
There was also that nun that let Buffy try on her wimple.
burt...@hotmail.com
> Another thing the ending always reminds me of is the end of 'Becoming':
>
> "That's everything, huh? No weapons, no friends. No hope. Take all
> that away and what's left?"
>
> What's left of Buffy?
She's still got her Spikey!
Which, of course, was the whole point of this entire plotline.
William George Ferguson
wrote:
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>
>
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Seven, Episode 19: "Empty Places"
>(or "Mr. Preantepenultimate")
>Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
>Director: James A. Contner
>
>
>One has to wonder why the doctors don't, you know, tell Xander the
>latest news about his condition instead of passing it along via his
>friends. Anyway, the hospital bed scene is pretty clearly the best
>part of the episode for me. Talking about his injury as bluntly as he
>can, as if trying to force the idea to sink in, while saying everything
>flippantly as if trying to deflate it seems very much like him, as does
>the part where he and Willow try their hardest to banter their way to a
>good laugh. The distance in which he and Buffy don't have much to
>say to each other is suitably uncomfortable, and the "oh, Willow...
>please don't" bit is absolutely heart-wrenching.
Leaving this in, because it's part of a comment I'm going to make.
>Faith taking the MC5000 out for some drinking and fighting works all
>right for what it is (i.e. a way to move the plot along), especially
>since it's a pretty good fight. Here I'm definitely starting to
>feel the pacing seeming a little askew. Faith shows up, takes the
>group out for one dance, and within an episode is the center of their
>world. That part doesn't feel so natural. It's like the show is
>in a hurry to move the stuff with the potentials to Point B as quickly
>as possible, since it's anxious to have the last three episodes for
>other things. More mirroring each other ensues for the Slayers, with
>Buffy being the one to start throwing punches and Faith holding back
>for once.
A key point is covered in the dialogue, tied to the scene above with Xander
at the hospital, Faith's "Look, you don't even know these girls.", Buffy
doesn't Want to know these girls. This is the ep that makes clear what
we've been seeing from Buffy, which is part of what leads to Buffy's
downfall as their leader. Buffy has known, and says it occasionally, that
even in the best case scenario she's going to get a bunch of these girls
killed (worst case is the FE wins and everyone is killed). As we know by
now, Buffy doesn't deal well with even one person under her protection
dying, here she knows that she's going to be sending girls under her
protection to their deaths, and has already done so. She's decided, pretty
consciously, to deal with it by depersonalizing them and distancing
herself. That reduces her pain a little, but completely undercuts her
connection to her followers. To follow the route Faith did with the outing
would in the long-term cause her a lot of emotional pain, but it would
allow the kind of bonding that leads to people willingly following you into
the valley of death, into the mouth of hell.
>Is this the on-screen debut of Nerf Herder? May be one of the signs...
Yep (and loved the meta-comment). They did have a couple of songs play in
the background in earlier episodes (besides the one in every ep), but this
is the first 'live' appearance.
>"Why are you always standing up for her?" The years of friendship
>and world saving may have something to do with it. I notice how hard
>I'm looking for reasons to feel justified in my somewhat irrational
>hatred of Kennedy for the fan-ish reasons already discussed.
>Objectively she's generally been more like Riley in deserving
>disinterest rather than outright loathing. But she comes off as a
>bitch here. More about her gradual loss of the initial optimism and
>trust that originally defined her might've been a theoretically
>interesting Chosen's-eye (or "Lower Decks," to Trekkies) view of
>things, but the show seems to have, perhaps wisely, given up on making
>anyone particularly care about her story. Anya's pretty bitchy as
>well; it's interesting that she's nursing a grudge from
>"Selfless" that hasn't gone away with time the way such things
>sometimes do on the show. Vengeance.
Oh, come on, Kennedy doesn't deserve your hatred in these scenes.
Rona does.
>My two complaints are first that Dawn throwing Buffy out of the house
>seems like a needlessly melodramatic coda, done to provide a big moment
>rather than as an organic outcome of the rest of the discussion. And
>second that while I can imagine Wil and Xander being part of the
>uncertainty, it doesn't play right that after seeing our hero have
>everything taken away, *Faith* is the only one who even goes after her.
> When Faith is the most compassionate person in your scene, that seems
>like a problem. I do like the final B/F exchange, so glad to have
>that, but seriously, people.
As others said, Dawn didn't throw Buffy out of the house, Buffy said 'do it
my way or I leave', and Dawn answered 'then you'll have to leave' (aka they
weren't going to do it her way).
A bunch of things lead into this. There is the disaffection from the
Potentials, fueled by Buffy distancing herself from them, there's the
disaffection from her strongest supporters, and, providing quant. suff.,
there's her calling on them to do exactly the same thing that had just
failed miserably and resulted in death and injury, without any changes to
establish a chance of success. The last was what caused the immediate
break at this point. She asked them to storm the winery in exactly the
same way they just had, pretty much fulfilling the definition of insanity
(doing exactly the same thing and expecting a different result).
As for the last scene, what I really wanted to see is Buffy walking out the
front door and finding Dawn waiting with two packs.
--
... and my sister is a vampire slayer, her best friend is a witch who
went bonkers and tried to destroy the world, um, I actually used to be
a little ball of energy until about two years ago when some monks
changed the past and made me Buffy's sister and for some reason, a big
klepto. My best friends are Leticia Jones, who moved to San Diego
because this town is evil, and a floppy eared demon named Clem.
(Dawn's fantasy of her intro speech in "Lessons", from the shooting script)
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> threads.
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 19: "Empty Places"
> (or "Mr. Preantepenultimate")
> Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> Director: James A. Contner
.
> Dead Sunnydale. The mass exodus scene in the teaser and first act is
> composed well; there's a good "bad" feel to it. The classic
> visual of Clem just driving along in the middle of daytime traffic
> seems almost like a payoff gag after years of seeing what Sunnydalians
> are capable of ignoring. He also helps set a tone right away, since
> the episode is full of sad comic relief, smiles that don't touch
> characters' eyes, and so on.
A nice detail in this scene is Buffy's slightly rough voice, as if she had
been crying or trying to hold back tears (which can hurt your throat more
than actually crying). I don't know if this was deliberate or if Sarah
just happened to have a cold that day, but it works really well with her
bleak little forced smile. (Also, Clem rocks!)
> One has to wonder why the doctors don't, you know, tell Xander the
> latest news about his condition instead of passing it along via his
> friends.
You'd think there'd be a hospital rule that the doctor has to tell
the patient directly, but maybe he came in later. Or, like Ellisi said,
maybe he was busy packing.
> Anyway, the hospital bed scene is pretty clearly the best
> part of the episode for me. Talking about his injury as bluntly as he
> can, as if trying to force the idea to sink in, while saying everything
> flippantly as if trying to deflate it seems very much like him, as does
> the part where he and Willow try their hardest to banter their way to a
> good laugh. The distance in which he and Buffy don't have much to
> say to each other is suitably uncomfortable, and the "oh, Willow...
> please don't" bit is absolutely heart-wrenching.
It's the best part for me too. I just wanted to quote your description,
without having anything to add to it. Well, I will add that Buffy still
has a bit of the above-mentioned roughness in her voice, and that I really
liked the way the camera pans down from Buffy's departing back to Willow
and Xander's clasped hands.
Also, note that Buffy's inability to connect with Willow and Xander here,
and Dawn when she asks about Xander, is a continuation of her emotional
retreat at the end of Dirty Girls. We can assume she's acted that way the
whole time between that episode and this, probably at least a day or two.
She hasn't done anything to rebuild her team's morale, and indeed she's
barely holding herself together.
You didn't include a TIRSBILA section this time, but a lot of Anya's
review session could go in there. I especially liked her careful delivery
when talking about "the claws they use to shred flesh," and the way
everyone vacated the cot after Anya mentioned having breakup sex with
Xander there. Oh, and Andrew writing "breakup sex" on the easel.
> Not content with last time, we need another confrontation with Preacher
> Tightpants. One gets the impression that he doesn't like women. Not
> much new of interest on that front, although those look like some
> pretty painful falls for Buffy and for Gellar's stuntwoman.
It's striking how angry Caleb gets at the slightest bit of back-talk from
Buffy. But angry though he gets, he doesn't seem to consider her a threat
at all. Note the photo Buffy has of her, Willow and Xander. In a nice
bit of continuity (if not continuity porn), it's the same picture we've
seen in numerous episodes going back almost to the very beginning.
(Didn't Willow have a print in her room in Prophecy Girl?)
> Faith taking the MC5000 out for some drinking and fighting works all
> right for what it is (i.e. a way to move the plot along), especially
> since it's a pretty good fight.
The crazed cops were a good example of a throwaway monster of the week,
as unimportant to the real substance of the episode as the hell hounds
were in The Prom. I thought they could have added a little bit of depth
by going beyond Hellmouth madness as a motivation, and making the cops old
friends of Allan Finch, out to avenge him. But we don't really need the
cops to have any depth, since again, they are not the important thing in
Empty Places.
> Here I'm definitely starting to
> feel the pacing seeming a little askew. Faith shows up, takes the
> group out for one dance, and within an episode is the center of their
> world. That part doesn't feel so natural.
It does feel a little hurried, but remember that the Potentials are scared
but losing confidence in their old leader, so they'll naturally tend to
look for a new one. Also, in taking the group out for a night on the
town, Faith is already acting like their leader without even realizing it.
How many iconic dancing scenes has Faith had now? FH&T and 5B5 on Angel
come to mind, but this one most resembles Bad Girls, when she and Buffy
danced in the middle of a crowd of admiring boys.
> The designated comic relief subplot concerns Spike and Andrew getting a
> little bit of information about their enemy.
BTW, Giles seems to have amazingly good vision for someone whose glasses
are always dirty. And it's not Spike's occult knowledge but William's
nineteenth-century classical education that proves useful this time.
> The end result of "Empty Places" is that everyone gangs up on Buffy
> in a somewhat contrived scene, getting her in a crowded room and
> criticizing her one at a time, to air their concerns.
Which is only fair, since Buffy herself chose the setting to announce her
new plan. (Squelching Xander's welcome home party, which might have been
at least a tiny morale builder. BTW, it was nice to see that Anya got her
chance to help support Xander -- she was there with Willow when they
brought Xander home. And it just occurred to me that everyone refers to
the Summers house as Xander's home now.)
When Buffy says that they're going back to the vineyard and everyone goes
silent for a moment, you know she's lost them. I always picture a group
of soldiers, maybe in the US Civil War or on the Western Front in World
War I, who have just launched a frontal attack on the enemy and gotten
slaughtered, and who are now balking when their officer asks them to go
over the top again. You just can't expect people who have already looked
death in the face to go at it again unless they really, really trust you.
Buffy isn't necessarily wrong about the vineyard, but no one trusts her
judgement anymore. She's already been distant from the girls from the
outset (perhaps for good reason, but it still hurts the trust). Her
generalship is naturally under question after her first attempt to take
the offensive ends in disaster. Her decision to attack in Dirty Girls
seemed to be based on her emotional need to hit something, and now her
troops naturally see this as the same thing happening again. Her failure
to comfort the troops after the first attack has further diminished her
status as a leader in their minds, as has her loss of self-confidence to
anyone who can see it. And since she starts off the scene trying to
*persuade* them that she's right, attempting to *order* them to do it
later (oops, I just remembered we aren't a democracy) just won't fly.
Looking back, you can see that most of the General Buffy theme throughout
the season has been leading up to this moment. (Not that this is
necessarily the end to that storyline.) And as always, neither side in
the conflict is entirely right or entirely wrong.
> My two complaints are first that Dawn throwing Buffy out of the house
> seems like a needlessly melodramatic coda, done to provide a big moment
> rather than as an organic outcome of the rest of the discussion.
Neither part feels wrong to me. It was necessary to get Dawn's input,
showing that absolutely no one was willing to trust Buffy as leader
anymore. And not only was leaving Buffy's own idea, but it couldn't have
gone any other way -- Buffy wouldn't, *couldn't* follow Faith as leader,
and there was no room there for her to be neither leader nor follower.
Dawn recognized that for the group to be united, Buffy had to leave. And
that's one reason (besides guilt and discomfort) why neither Willow nor
Xander goes after Buffy. They too recognize that Buffy has to leave, at
least for a while, and no one could invite her back except the new leader.
Plus it allows for the fine B/F exchange at the end, as you mention.
> AOQ rating: Good
Good here too. (Didn't mention it above, but I also really liked Faith
and Wood's conversation on the porch.)
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
jil...@hotmail.com
BTR1701 wrote:
> If it's Slayer instinct, then Faith's instincts are just as credible as
> Buffy's.
Yes. And Faith is the one who regrets that the others did this. She
is also, however, not the one who's been stuck worrying over these
girls for weeks. Though we who watched Angel know exactly what she's
done the last couple of days. She's in a new place, surrounded by
uncertain girls and a few people whom she knows and to whom she did
wrong. At this moment, if her instincts are telling her to go to the
winery, she'd probably translate that as simply a wish to fight. Head
before heart, because that's what she's learned in prison so that she
doesn't kill any bitchy woman who tried to best her.
Michael Ikeda
news:svovi2dtsaee1me2h...@4ax.com:
> On 13 Oct 2006 01:14:13 -0700, "Arbitrar Of Quality"
> <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
>>review threads.
>>
>>
>>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>>Season Seven, Episode 19: "Empty Places"
>>(or "Mr. Preantepenultimate")
>>Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
>>Director: James A. Contner
>>
>>
>
> A bunch of things lead into this. There is the disaffection
> from the Potentials, fueled by Buffy distancing herself from
> them, there's the disaffection from her strongest supporters,
> and, providing quant. suff., there's her calling on them to do
> exactly the same thing that had just failed miserably and
> resulted in death and injury, without any changes to establish a
> chance of success. The last was what caused the immediate break
> at this point. She asked them to storm the winery in exactly
> the same way they just had, pretty much fulfilling the
> definition of insanity (doing exactly the same thing and
> expecting a different result).
Some thoughts on the argument between Buffy and the others.
1) There's a certain similarity between this argument and the
earlier one in "Dirty Girls". In both arguments Buffy suggests a
plan and the others voice reservations. The key reason for the
different outcome is that in "Dirty Girls", the others (especially
Willow and Xander)are still willing to trust Buffy's judgement.
2) However, this argument has a different feel than the most
serious arguments between Buffy and the other Scoobies in earlier
seasons. In those arguments you generally had both sides feeding
off of each other's anger. In this one, even Buffy is more
stubborn than angry and the other Scoobies are actually reluctant.
The argument would have ended at almost any point if Buffy hadn't
kept escalating the situation.
3) Xander's injury is an important part of what's driving things
here. Obviously the injury is a major reason that both Xander and
Willow are reluctant to trust Buffy a second time. As I mentioned
in another thread, I suspect Buffy lost Willow during the hours
Willow spent at Xander's hospital bedside. But I think that
Xander's injury also part of the reason Buffy is so stubborn about
pushing her plan. One of her best friends was almost killed
because of a miscalculation she made. Emotionally it must feel
like the only way to redeem herself is to recover something
important from the vineyard. Granted that Buffy actually has a
correct intuition here, but she still isn't thinking completely
clearly and Willow and Xander have both been around her long enough
to recognize the signs that she isn't.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Malsperanza
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 19: "Empty Places"
> (or "Mr. Preantepenultimate")
Hee.
snippage
> Not content with last time, we need another confrontation with Preacher
> Tightpants.
So that we can watch his character evolve.
> Faith taking the MC5000 out for some drinking and fighting works all
> right for what it is (i.e. a way to move the plot along), especially
> since it's a pretty good fight. Here I'm definitely starting to
> feel the pacing seeming a little askew. Faith shows up, takes the
> group out for one dance, and within an episode is the center of their
> world. That part doesn't feel so natural. It's like the show is
> in a hurry to move the stuff with the potentials to Point B as quickly
> as possible, since it's anxious to have the last three episodes for
> other things.
Lots of setting-up of circumstances for the big scene later. Also, I
think, one last visit to the Bronze in the manner of the old days.
Buffy's impatience with this escapade puts her squarely in the Old
Fogey camp with Giles, when not long ago she might have felt that an
evening of hokey-pokey was just the thing to get her revved. One
question: If everyone's fleeing Sunnydale, who are all those people in
the Bronze?
> "Why are you always standing up for her?" The years of friendship
> and world saving may have something to do with it.
This was an episode that bugged me, but I have to say that the
commentaries have been pretty convincing. Many of the events and plot
points of the last 3 or 4 episodes have been designed (a little too
obviously) to lead to a situation in which Buffy could plausibly be
rejected by everyone at once.
I still find it hard to buy Willow, Xander, and Dawn letting her walk
out the door, because so much emphasis has been placed on the value of
loyalty and friendship as actual weapons in the war, as well as good
things in themselve. Here, loyalty is made to look like blind loyalty,
which I think ignores many hard-earned lessons of all the scooobies
over the years. Some viewers are hard on Buffy for not learning from
her mistakes--or seeming not to. I think this scene puts Willow,
Xander, and Dawn in the same position.
A short scene or private moment between Buffy and one or more of them
would have gone a long way to making this feel more natural and
organic.
Even so, I felt an odd but potent sense of relief when she did leave.
Buffy has never been at her best trying to lead a large team. She's
always worked best alone or with 2 or 3 scoobies carrying out specific
tasks. Now, with the weight of the world on her shoulders as never
before, she is less equipped than ever to manage a group dynamic. So
this felt both sad and freeing. Now that she's alone, maybe she'll be
able to focus.
~Mal
Mel
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
The "Buffy getting kicked out" scene is the point where I want Buffy to say:
"Fine, you don't want to go with me, I'll go by myself. And when I get
back, I expect every one you ungrateful little bitches to get the hell
out of my house."
:-)
Mel
Apteryx
news:1160727253.6...@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> "not that I swing cats, or eat, nope. Heh. Cuttin' way back.
> Cholesterol... morals, I mean, morals."
A good moment
> pretty painful falls for Buffy and for Gellar's stuntwoman. This
> season has presented a few instances, rare elsewhere in the series, in
> which a Buffyverse villain could kill the hero if he wanted to but
> doesn't... given how having her around is generally death to any Big
> Bad plan, this one had better be a good one.
Because he wouldn't be able to go Mwahaha around her? There is that plan
of the First of course to kill all the potentials first so that killing
a Slayer doesn't simply call another one, but that got a bit undermined
by the attempt to kill Faith in prison. But personally you have to
wonder at Caleb's dedication in sticking to that plan, especially as he
would be getting rid of an experienced and accomplished Slayer and
replacing her with a newbie.
>
> The end result of "Empty Places" is that everyone gangs up on Buffy
> in a somewhat contrived scene, getting her in a crowded room and
> criticizing her one at a time, to air their concerns.
Just a little bit contrived...
To me this is fanfic, written by a fan lucky enough to get paid to do
it. It's amateur hour. Instructions have come down from on high that
Buffy is to be brought low by being cast out by her friends. Theme
dominates story. The writers no doubt do their best to make it real, but
their best is nowhere near good enough. The objections the potentials
and the Scoobies make to Buffy's leadership are realistic enough - she's
been a crap leader. But to depose her, replace her with Faith!! (she's
been Not Evil for one and a half episodes now) and kick her out of the
house? Who are these people, and what have they done with the real
Scoobies? Haven't they even read the title of the series? Is it "Bunch
of Whiny Potentials and Their Choice of Vampire Slayer"? No. So its not
likely the casting out will take. Fortunately the "Buffy Cast Out"
storyline is so weak, it can simply be omitted on rewatching season 7,
with some improvement in the overall look of the season.
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: I do not agree with everything the show does,
but
> I will defend to the cancellation its right to do it competently.
Good qualification on the end of that.
> AOQ rating: Good
To me its Weak. It has been rated low enough to be Bad in the past, but
that was probably just rating it with the taste of the ending still in
my mouth. It's my 137th favourite BtVS episode, 18th best in season 7.
--
Apteryx
Mel
BTR1701 wrote:
She hasn't been fighting the battle that Buffy has every day for 7+
years. Hers has been more of an internal struggle. Buffy's instincts are
honed based on her experience fighting the bad guys, the really big bad
guys. Faith doesn't have that yet.
Mel
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> at all. Note the photo Buffy has of her, Willow and Xander. In a nice
> bit of continuity (if not continuity porn), it's the same picture we've
> seen in numerous episodes going back almost to the very beginning.
> (Didn't Willow have a print in her room in Prophecy Girl?)
Nope, never mind -- I just checked and it's a different photo in Prophecy
Girl. I'm still positive we've seen it in other episodes, though.
Mel
Rowan Hawthorn wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>> threads.
>>
>>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Seven, Episode 19: "Empty Places"
>> (or "Mr. Preantepenultimate")
>> Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
>> Director: James A. Contner
>>
>>
>> Faith taking the MC5000 out for some drinking and fighting works all
>> right for what it is (i.e. a way to move the plot along), especially
>> since it's a pretty good fight. Here I'm definitely starting to
>> feel the pacing seeming a little askew. Faith shows up, takes the
>> group out for one dance, and within an episode is the center of their
>> world. That part doesn't feel so natural. It's like the show is
>> in a hurry to move the stuff with the potentials to Point B as quickly
>> as possible, since it's anxious to have the last three episodes for
>> other things.
>
>
> It also mirrors the way Faith first appeared and immediately became such
> a focus of attention (particularly by Xander...)
>
Giles doesn't seem overly critical of the little Bronze trip either even
though he went completely ballistic because Buffy went on a date (which
actually led to an ally joining the cause).
Bad Giles.
Mel
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> question: If everyone's fleeing Sunnydale, who are all those people in
> the Bronze?
how many humans have bright orange hair?
it was obviously a demon band
playing evil demonic music
designed to do evil magic on humans
think what would happen to you
if you had to listen that kind of music every week?
(Harmony) Watcher
"mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mair_fheal-F4C96...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
the death of two Potentials and an eye of Xander. When reckless Faith thinks
you're reckless, you know you are.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
(Harmony) Watcher
<jil...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1160737187....@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> And again, we see them forget all about Slayer instinct. Well, and
> some of the viewers, too. Buffy FEELS that there really IS something
> in that winery that she should have. She knows it on a gut level.
> Unfortunately, no one else does and she can't reason with them on a gut
> instinct.
>
did not give her the right to execute an UNplan, risking the lives of so
many trainees. She should have just done her usual thing, snuck into the
vineyard herself, or just send Faith in. Either way, she might die or Faith
might as a result. But they were Slayers. Death was their gift. One dies,
another would be activated. Risking the lives of Potentials by rationalizing
it to be a field training mission is as dumb as it gets. She did not even
qualify as a cadet much less a General with that kind of thinking.
The truth is that Buffy reasoned with her guts, meaning that it wasn't
really reasoning at all. I bet neither Buffy nor Faith had any "training"
before they were Slayers. Now suddenly the Potentials needed training?
Whoever become the next Slayer if one of Buffy or Faith died, that Slayer
would probably be just as good "physically" and martial-arts-wise as Buffy
or Faith. And training someone to be self-sufficient or self-confident takes
time. In my view, there is no time to train the Potentials. Guarding their
safety should have been Buffy's priority, and having the entire gaggle in
Sunnydale was really smart.
> Yes, she did choose to leave instead of doing what they say. Their
> anger is not without justification. Damn her because her plan got two
> girls killed, Rona a broken arm and Xander lost an eye. We know the
> whys from their side. And that they don't seem to care that she's
> teaching them to protect themselves, wearing herself to exhaustion
> because if she goes to sleep, one girl in a house FULL of them might
> decide to off herself and somehow no one will notice until all there is
> to find is a corpse.
>
The real problem was gathering all the Potentials in Sunnydale. A much
better plan would be for Giles to gather all the Potentials in the Coven,
and have the white witches protect the Potentials. Gathering all the
Potentials in Sunnydale is just about the dumbest plan I can think of.
There, just another one of my grumbles about Season 7.
> Of course, only we who were watching have an inkling that the whole
> plan of Caleb and The First is to get Buffy away from the others.
> After all, since she is particularly the one they don't want to kill
> yet... she's only in the way while she's with them.
>
> As an additional point, it's only Buffy's group (or just Buffy who
> knows) who thinks "Potentials, Faith then me." Perhaps the line is so
> screwed up because of her ressurrection that now Faith's death won't
> call a new Slayer.
>
>
Indeed. The statement "Potentials, Faith then me" is an intriguing remark.
If it happens to be true, that may indicate that neither Faith nor Buffy's
death might call a new Slayer.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
(Harmony) Watcher
"William George Ferguson" <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:svovi2dtsaee1me2h...@4ax.com...
> On 13 Oct 2006 01:14:13 -0700, "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> >threads.
> >
> >
> >BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> >Season Seven, Episode 19: "Empty Places"
> >(or "Mr. Preantepenultimate")
> >Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> >Director: James A. Contner
> >
> >
>
<snip>
> >Is this the on-screen debut of Nerf Herder? May be one of the signs...
>
> Yep (and loved the meta-comment). They did have a couple of songs play in
> the background in earlier episodes (besides the one in every ep), but this
> is the first 'live' appearance.
>
>
Quiz of the Day:
What song was playing in the background as the cops ushered Faith out of the
Bronze?
--
==Harmony Watcher==
Don Sample
Have we seen any sign that the coven could protect the potentials from a
Shih Tzu, let alone any real threat?
The First was picking off Potentials one by one with them scattered
around the world. In order to protect them, they had to gather them
together, where they have the chance to help each other, and where you
can concentrate your own forces to protect them. They can't abandon
Sunnydale, because that just lets the First build up its strength there
unopposed. So they either gather the Potentials in Sunnydale, or they
divide their forces, which would give the First the opportunity to
defeat them in detail.
> >
> Indeed. The statement "Potentials, Faith then me" is an intriguing remark.
> If it happens to be true, that may indicate that neither Faith nor Buffy's
> death might call a new Slayer.
That is just speculation about what the First's plan was. From what
we've seen since then, that wasn't really its plan at any time.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Michael Ikeda
news:egpieh$1p6$1...@emma.aioe.org:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1160727253.6...@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
>> review threads.
>>
>>
>
> To me this is fanfic, written by a fan lucky enough to get paid
> to do it. It's amateur hour. Instructions have come down from on
> high that Buffy is to be brought low by being cast out by her
> friends. Theme dominates story. The writers no doubt do their
> best to make it real, but their best is nowhere near good
> enough. The objections the potentials and the Scoobies make to
> Buffy's leadership are realistic enough - she's been a crap
> leader. But to depose her, replace her with Faith!! (she's been
> Not Evil for one and a half episodes now) and kick her out of
> the house?
They don't kick her out. Buffy kicks herself out. Buffy is the
one who keeps escalating the argument until dissent changes to
outright rebellion. Buffy is the one who, when it's clear her plan
is being rejected, tries to simply order the others to do what she
wants. And it's Buffy who escalates things further with an
ultimatum when giving orders doesn't work. Buffy's stubbornness
creates the argument, escalates it, and results in her kicking
herself out of the house.
(For that matter, it's even Buffy who plants the idea of Faith as
an alternate leader. "Because I'm the Slayer" is not the wisest
argument to make in a room filled with people who disagree with you
when there's another Slayer around.)
hayes62
Malsperanza wrote:
> > Not content with last time, we need another confrontation with Preacher
> > Tightpants.
>
> So that we can watch his character evolve.
I felt this episode did actually succeed in giving Caleb some layers.
In Dirty Girls he seemed a rather generic Whedon villian. Witty in a
nasty way, way too talky and casually violent but his attack on Buffy
was too impersonal and too easy for him to be anything more than that.
Partly the problem was Nathan Fillion beeing too fundamentally nice a
guy to make the visciouness have any depth, he's a decent enough actor
but no Robert Mitchum, or so I thought. Well I was was wrong because
this time going for Buffy in the school it did feel personal in an
Angelus-like sense. She's not just another dirty girl to him, he quite
viscerally hates her and everything she stands for. Which paradoxically
makes him just that little bit vulnerable and therefore interesting.
> A short scene or private moment between Buffy and one or more of them
> would have gone a long way to making this feel more natural and
> organic.
>
> Even so, I felt an odd but potent sense of relief when she did leave.
> Buffy has never been at her best trying to lead a large team. She's
> always worked best alone or with 2 or 3 scoobies carrying out specific
> tasks. Now, with the weight of the world on her shoulders as never
> before, she is less equipped than ever to manage a group dynamic. So
> this felt both sad and freeing. Now that she's alone, maybe she'll be
> able to focus.
>
I think that's how the scoobies felt too, they were being loyal to her
by giving her what she needed, not what she said she wanted. Dawn's
telling Rhona to shut her mouth was a good indication.
~H
Ian Galbraith
[snip]
> As for her closest and less close friends abandoning her, the setup is
> again there. It's been long enough since "Showtime" (and most of
> the kids weren't there then) that people have had time to get bored
> with the rousing speeches (a serious idea introduced in a funny way in
> "Storyteller" and LMPTM) and the attempted discipline. And then
> something like not only the "Dirty Girls" debacle but how she
> responds afterward. So at least it's a combination of factors: not
> just her not being any fun, or just seeing an alternative Slayer, or
> just Spike, or just DG. As for Xander and Willow, they're
> convincingly reluctant to say much, only contributing a few
> to-the-point sentences apiece, and look like it's hurting them.
> Basically, if one must tell a story about all of Buffy's friends
> refusing to follow her, this is a reasonable way to do it. Faith's
> role is nicely handled here, unintentionally setting herself up as the
> instigator just by being the first one offering concrete objections.
> So I'm okay with the ideas, up until Dawn.
There is an argument that they are being affected by the hellmouth.Genuine
feelings and objections to Buffy underlie the break up but it still may not
have gone as far as it did without the hellmouth magnifying them, just like
its doing to the rest of town,
[snip]
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: I do not agree with everything the show does, but
> I will defend to the cancellation its right to do it competently.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
A low good from me.
--
You Can't Stop The Signal
Stephen Tempest
>Because he wouldn't be able to go Mwahaha around her? There is that plan
>of the First of course to kill all the potentials first so that killing
>a Slayer doesn't simply call another one, but that got a bit undermined
>by the attempt to kill Faith in prison. But personally you have to
>wonder at Caleb's dedication in sticking to that plan, especially as he
>would be getting rid of an experienced and accomplished Slayer and
>replacing her with a newbie.
We know, courtesy of Beljoxa's Eye, that it's Buffy's continued
existence that's creating the weakness in the Slayer line. Kill her,
and the weakness will correct itself; the Slayer line will no longer
be vulnerable and The First's plan will be impossible to complete.
Presumably killing Faith wouldn't have the same effect; we'd just get
another Slayer being called.
Unless, of course, The First was confident that the attack on Faith in
prison wouldn't succeed, but it would fulfil its real purpose of
making Faith angry and resentful of the Scoobies for not warning her
of the danger...
Stephen
BTR1701
Mel <melb...@uci.net> wrote:
> BTR1701 wrote:
>
> > In article <1160737187....@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
> > "jil...@hotmail.com" <jil...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>And again, we see them forget all about Slayer instinct. Well, and
> >>some of the viewers, too. Buffy FEELS that there really IS something
> >>in that winery that she should have. She knows it on a gut level.
> >>Unfortunately, no one else does and she can't reason with them on a gut
> >>instinct.
> >
> >
> > If it's Slayer instinct, then Faith's instincts are just as credible as
> > Buffy's.
>
>
> She hasn't been fighting the battle that Buffy has every day for 7+
> years.
That would imply that the instincts are something which are developed
over time with experience. The original claim was that these are
instincts inherent to the power of the Slayer.
> Hers has been more of an internal struggle. Buffy's instincts are
> honed based on her experience fighting the bad guys, the really big bad
> guys. Faith doesn't have that yet.
Snvgu frafrq vafgnagyl fur jnf haqre nggnpx ol gur Svefg va cevfba
jvgubhg rira frrvat vg pbzvat. Ure vafgvapgf qba'g frrz qhyyrq ng nyy.
Naq, bs pbhefr, jr qba'g xabj jung jnf npghnyyl tbvat ba va gung
cevfba...
BTR1701
"Apteryx" <a.m...@deletethistoreply.xtra.co.nz> wrote:
> But to depose her, replace her with Faith!! (she's
> been Not Evil for one and a half episodes now)
No, she's been Not Evil for quite a bit longer than that.
Elisi
burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Elisi wrote:
> > Another thing the ending always reminds me of is the end of 'Becoming':
> >
> > "That's everything, huh? No weapons, no friends. No hope. Take all
> > that away and what's left?"
> >
> > What's left of Buffy?
<snip 'Touched' musings>
Please leave it until we get there, but I can say already that I do not
agree that that was 'the whole point'.
Mel
Naq Snvgu'f cyna va gur arkg rcvfbqr vf ubj zhpu orggre? Whfg orpnhfr
gurl nyy nterrq gb vg znxrf vg n orggre cyna? Ab, gurl jnyx vagb lrg
nabgure genc ohg abobql xvpxf Snvgu bhg bs gur ubhfr nf n erfhyg.
Mel
Mel
BTR1701 wrote:
> In article <TOGdnWMGbqP00q3Y...@uci.net>,
> Mel <melb...@uci.net> wrote:
>
>
>>BTR1701 wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In article <1160737187....@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
>>> "jil...@hotmail.com" <jil...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>And again, we see them forget all about Slayer instinct. Well, and
>>>>some of the viewers, too. Buffy FEELS that there really IS something
>>>>in that winery that she should have. She knows it on a gut level.
>>>>Unfortunately, no one else does and she can't reason with them on a gut
>>>>instinct.
>>>
>>>
>>>If it's Slayer instinct, then Faith's instincts are just as credible as
>>>Buffy's.
>>
>>
>>She hasn't been fighting the battle that Buffy has every day for 7+
>>years.
>
>
> That would imply that the instincts are something which are developed
> over time with experience. The original claim was that these are
> instincts inherent to the power of the Slayer.
Instincts are inherent, yes. Learning to listen to them and know what
they mean, that comes with experience. Something Faith doesn't have.
>
>
>>Hers has been more of an internal struggle. Buffy's instincts are
>>honed based on her experience fighting the bad guys, the really big bad
>>guys. Faith doesn't have that yet.
>
>
> Snvgu frafrq vafgnagyl fur jnf haqre nggnpx ol gur Svefg va cevfba
> jvgubhg rira frrvat vg pbzvat. Ure vafgvapgf qba'g frrz qhyyrq ng nyy.
> Naq, bs pbhefr, jr qba'g xabj jung jnf npghnyyl tbvat ba va gung
> cevfba...
Snvgu qvqa'g xabj fur jnf haqre nggnpx ol gur Svefg. Fur qvqa'g xabj
nalguvat nobhg gur Svefg hagvy fur pnzr gb Fhaalqnyr. Fur'f n svtugre,
naq unf orra ybatre guna fur'f orra n Fynlre. Vg'f abg fhecevfvat fur
jbhyq frafr fbzrbar jvgu n xavsr nobhg gb nggnpx ure.
Mel
(Harmony) Watcher
> In article <1160792669.8...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > question: If everyone's fleeing Sunnydale, who are all those people in
> > the Bronze?
>
> how many humans have bright orange hair?
> it was obviously a demon band
> playing evil demonic music
> designed to do evil magic on humans
>
> think what would happen to you
> if you had to listen that kind of music every week?
>
>
something like that). Cooler than much music these days.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
yes but faith killed mr spock
(Harmony) Watcher
> In article <JehYg.145266$R63.140636@pd7urf1no>,
> "\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
>
> > "mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
> > <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:mair_fheal-95D04...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> > > In article <1160792669.8...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> > > "Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > question: If everyone's fleeing Sunnydale, who are all those people
in
> > > > the Bronze?
> > >
> > > how many humans have bright orange hair?
> > > it was obviously a demon band
> > > playing evil demonic music
> > > designed to do evil magic on humans
> > >
> > > think what would happen to you
> > > if you had to listen that kind of music every week?
> > >
> > >
> > "... you don't need a boyfriend. All you need is Mr. Spock ..." (or
> > something like that). Cooler than much music these days.
>
> yes but faith killed mr spock
>
--
==Harmony==
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
> "mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
> <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:mair_fheal-BEABC...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> > In article <JehYg.145266$R63.140636@pd7urf1no>,
> > "\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
> >
> > > "mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
> > > <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:mair_fheal-95D04...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> > > > In article <1160792669.8...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> > > > "Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > question: If everyone's fleeing Sunnydale, who are all those people
> in
> > > > > the Bronze?
> > > >
> > > > how many humans have bright orange hair?
> > > > it was obviously a demon band
> > > > playing evil demonic music
> > > > designed to do evil magic on humans
> > > >
> > > > think what would happen to you
> > > > if you had to listen that kind of music every week?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > "... you don't need a boyfriend. All you need is Mr. Spock ..." (or
> > > something like that). Cooler than much music these days.
> >
> > yes but faith killed mr spock
> >
> Only if the volcanologist had pointed ears.
is that a pointed remark?
Arbitrar Of Quality
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> writes:
> >My two complaints are first that Dawn throwing Buffy out of the house
> >seems like a needlessly melodramatic coda, done to provide a big moment
> >rather than as an organic outcome of the rest of the discussion.
>
> It's Buffy who lays down the ultimatum... Dawn just calls her bluff.
> And you can even see the compassion there... she knows that staying in
> the house while not being the leader would be torture for her sister,
> so advises her to leave instead.
It didn't strike me as an ultimatum so much as bluster. Literally a
few seconds ago, it's become completely clear to Buffy that none of the
others are going to follow her - until then, she'd been trying to
articulate her point and win them over. Her first reaction to being
removed from office is no, I'm right, I can't stand by idly and watch
you throw your lives away. No one tries to see if she can made to back
down or compromise, because that would prevent the big somewhat OTT
ending.
And it's not "advising" her to leave - Dawn throws her sister out onto
the street: "You can't be a part of it. So I need you to leave."
> An interesting comparison here would be Wesley taking over from Angel
> as head of Angel Investigations.
I don't see the connection.
-AOQ
(Harmony) Watcher
thereby allowing me to re-interpret your sentence as:
Yes, but Faith killed Mr. "Spock".
This means I mischievously define Mr. "Spock" to be any volcanologist with
pointed ears. :p
--
==Harmony Watcher==
Arbitrar Of Quality
> We know, courtesy of Beljoxa's Eye, that it's Buffy's continued
> existence that's creating the weakness in the Slayer line. Kill her,
> and the weakness will correct itself; the Slayer line will no longer
> be vulnerable and The First's plan will be impossible to complete.
>
> Presumably killing Faith wouldn't have the same effect; we'd just get
> another Slayer being called.
Thanks for posting that, because it's surprisingly easy to forget that.
Yeah, that would mean that the First has a reason for not killing
Buffy. It needs her, and she's, as far as we know, unaware of that.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Giles doesn't seem overly critical of the little Bronze trip either even
> though he went completely ballistic because Buffy went on a date (which
> actually led to an ally joining the cause).
>
> Bad Giles.
Or Pod Giles, possibly.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> I'm rather impressed with the way they manged to capture such an
> all-pervading sense of hopelessness, making your heart sink lower and
> lower as you watch. Buffy is excellent in this - the way she
> desperately tries to keep her composure, that little half-smile when
> she says "It's OK" or "I'm fine" for the umpteenth time and
> you can see how she curls further and further into a little ball, away
> from everyone.
That aspect of the episode is very well done. I have some issues with
EP, but that's a big part of what pulled it up into the Good range
overall.
> > One has to wonder why the doctors don't, you know, tell Xander the
> > latest news about his condition instead of passing it along via his
> > friends.
>
> Maybe Buffy went to talk to the doctor, and then said that she'd be
> happy to tell him - the doctor might have been busy packing up?
As we see at the Bronze, some are holding out from the mass exodus. Or
maybe the sense of doom affects different people at different rates and
they'll keep trickling away.
> > Anya's pretty bitchy as
> > well;
> Although her and Andrew's lecture is wonderful.
Really? People seem to love that scene. Did nothing for me.
> Pondering this scene, I came up with a very strange parallel that yet
> somehow made sense. Compare please:
>
> 1) BUFFY: I-I don't understand this. For 7 years, I've kept us safe
> by doing this- exactly this, making the hard decisions. And now,
> what- suddenly you're all acting like you can't trust me?
> XANDER: I'm trying to see your point here, Buff... but I guess it must
> be a little bit to my left... 'cause I just don't.
>
> 2) BUFFY: Then what? What else do you want from me, Riley? I've given
> you everything that I have, I've given you my heart, my body and soul!
> RILEY: You say that, but I don't feel it. I just don't feel it.
>
> You can feel the frustration in both scenes, because Buffy feels that
> she did _everything_ right and suddenly - out of nowhere as far as she
> can see - it's all gone wrong. And - oh - oh - it's 'Help' all
> over again! She did things the way she thought she had to, and now
> there's a dead girl (= trust) at her feet. Dead because of _heart_
> failure! Wow. This is good. Because in both cases Buffy has been doing
> the job without engaging her heart:
I feel like the situations are way too different for the ITW comparison
to really work for me. I mean, the delivery may be similar or
whatever, but it could eb coincidental, and I don't see how that
analogy adds much to an understanding of the show. But tying it in to
"Help" makes more sense, since that seems to be one of those episodes
that's designed to set a tone for the year to follow.
-AOQ
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> > Although her and Andrew's lecture is wonderful.
>
> Really? People seem to love that scene. Did nothing for me.
its the next step in the blossoming anya-andrew romance
(Harmony) Watcher
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1160884932.0...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
resurrection makes little sense to me. Instead of a weakness, I see it as a
direct threat to the First who quickly decided that Buffy's dying twice and
resurrected twice must not be tolerated.
Suppose the First have Caleb kill Buffy now before wiping out all the
Potentials. This would be her third death. If her death triggers a new
Slayer, then there will still be at least two Slayers (the newly activated
one, and Faith and possibly another one already from Buffy's second death at
the end of S5). On the other hand, if it does not trigger a new Slayer, the
question becomes "what would be the problem of killing Buffy right now?"
The only reasonable conclusion I can see from this would be that Buffy's
second death at the end of S5 must have already triggered a third Slayer
(hidden off screen). If Buffy were to die a third time, her death would most
certainly trigger another Slayer. Consequently, the First must be feeling
rather threatened if humans catch on and devise a method of generating
multiple Slayers in the same generation by resurrecting dead Slayers
repeatedly. I think the First must be less than thrilled to have three
activated Slayers all operating in Buffy's time throughout Season 6.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
davi...@supanet.com
(Harmony) Watcher wrote:
>
> Suppose the First have Caleb kill Buffy now before wiping out all the
> Potentials. This would be her third death. If her death triggers a new
> Slayer, then there will still be at least two Slayers (the newly activated
> one, and Faith and possibly another one already from Buffy's second death at
> the end of S5). On the other hand, if it does not trigger a new Slayer, the
> question becomes "what would be the problem of killing Buffy right now?"
>
That's essentially the nub of the issue.
Arguments for the existence of the third slayer would come down to the
First's apparent insistence on going for Potentials before Slayers, to
prevent Slayer slaying having any potential to activate. We have never
been told how many potentials there are in total, and so we have no way
of knowing how viable this part of the First's plan is. (If the number
of potentials is of the order of dozens, then it might be possible to
clear them out of the way before new ones arrive. If the number is of
the order of hundreds, then as fast as they get killed, new ones get
born in the normal run of things).
One has to say that the First's plan of killing potentials, then
slayers, has to be one of the silliest around. Um, why not simply
imprison (in whatever form) the Slayer. No Slayer death means no new
Slayer created, while the current Slayer is not available to interfere.
But then, the First isn't exactly the sharpest tool in the box.
On the other hand, if Buffy's death at the end of S5 triggered a new
Slayer, then one would have thought, after nearly 2 years have passed,
that someone might have noticed the existence of a new Slayer, and who
might have been expected to make an appearance. No mention of this
theoretical third slayer by the First, the CoW, Giles, or anyone.
Absolutely zilch evidence. Which would suggest that there would be
nothing to prevent the First from holding back in taking out Buffy. But
then, the First isn't exactly the sharpest tool in the box.
burt...@hotmail.com
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Stephen Tempest wrote:
> > "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> writes:
>
> > >My two complaints are first that Dawn throwing Buffy out of the house
> > >seems like a needlessly melodramatic coda, done to provide a big moment
> > >rather than as an organic outcome of the rest of the discussion.
> >
> > It's Buffy who lays down the ultimatum... Dawn just calls her bluff.
> > And you can even see the compassion there... she knows that staying in
> > the house while not being the leader would be torture for her sister,
> > so advises her to leave instead.
>
> It didn't strike me as an ultimatum so much as bluster. Literally a
> few seconds ago, it's become completely clear to Buffy that none of the
> others are going to follow her - until then, she'd been trying to
> articulate her point and win them over. Her first reaction to being
> removed from office is no, I'm right, I can't stand by idly and watch
> you throw your lives away.
Which is a very odd sentiment for Buffy to express, considering that
she's the one who just proposed leading them all on a suicide mission.
She proposed that they attack exactly the same position, with exactly
the same forces, with exactly the same plan (i.e., no plan at all) as
before - basically, an exact repeat of the first battle that got two
Potentials killed and Xander's eye gouged out.
Albert Einsetin's definition of insanity is doing the same thing over
and over again and expecting a different result. When your leader is
demonstrably insane, replacing that leader ASAP is the correct and
proper thing to do.
Paul Hyett
greykitten tomys des anges wrote :
>
>> question: If everyone's fleeing Sunnydale, who are all those people in
>> the Bronze?
>
>how many humans have bright orange hair?
Alicia Witt?
>it was obviously a demon band
>playing evil demonic music
>designed to do evil magic on humans
--
Paul 'Charts Fan' Hyett
(Harmony) Watcher
<davi...@supanet.com> wrote in message
news:1160895186....@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
(the movie). Imprison the one and only Slayer and render her in a coma (just
like Faith was in a coma) but kept alive indefinitely.
> On the other hand, if Buffy's death at the end of S5 triggered a new
> Slayer, then one would have thought, after nearly 2 years have passed,
> that someone might have noticed the existence of a new Slayer, and who
> might have been expected to make an appearance. No mention of this
> theoretical third slayer by the First, the CoW, Giles, or anyone.
> Absolutely zilch evidence.
>
Lack of evidence does not and cannot prove non-existence of the third
Slayer. After all, we do not know the mechanics of how one is triggered.
A logical *assumption* would be "activation by proximity": that a Potential
closest to place of death of the exited Slayer would be activated so that
the newly activated Slayer would not be hampered by great distances and
could not get to where she would be needed the most--the place where the
previous Slayer just died. But that is just an *assumption*. No on screen
evidence for that.
> Which would suggest that there would be
> nothing to prevent the First from holding back in taking out Buffy. But
> then, the First isn't exactly the sharpest tool in the box.
>
But on screen evidence clearly showed that Caleb did not want to kill Buffy.
Inside Sunnydale High, he could have easily finished the job right there.
Instead, he said "I'll see you soon little lady" and left her alone. The
only reason I could think of is that the First ordered him not to kill Buffy
first.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
Don Sample
"\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
When a Slayer dies, the new Slayer is probably called someplace close to
where the Slayer will be needed next, no matter where the last Slayer
was killed.
Prior to the 20th century, most people lived their entire lives within a
few miles of their birth places. Slayers might travel farther than the
average person, but it would be rare for one to travel more than a few
hundred miles. If a Slayer was needed on the far side of the world
there would be no way for her to travel there, and using a "closest
potential" calling rule, there's no way a Slayer could have ever been
called in the Americas, if one were ever needed there.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
> Lack of evidence does not and cannot prove non-existence of the third
> Slayer. After all, we do not know the mechanics of how one is triggered.
>
> A logical *assumption* would be "activation by proximity": that a Potential
> closest to place of death of the exited Slayer would be activated so that
> the newly activated Slayer would not be hampered by great distances and
> could not get to where she would be needed the most--the place where the
> previous Slayer just died. But that is just an *assumption*. No on screen
> evidence for that.
assumptions multiply without limit
(Harmony) Watcher
"Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
news:dsample-A51E73...@news.giganews.com...
no? That makes the area where the last Slayer died the place where the new
Slayer would be needed the most.
> Prior to the 20th century, most people lived their entire lives within a
> few miles of their birth places. Slayers might travel farther than the
> average person, but it would be rare for one to travel more than a few
> hundred miles. If a Slayer was needed on the far side of the world
> there would be no way for her to travel there, and using a "closest
> potential" calling rule, there's no way a Slayer could have ever been
> called in the Americas, if one were ever needed there.
>
I might agree with you if the last Slayer died of natural causes. You are
implicitly assuming that whatever caused the last Slayer to die will no
longer be the most urgent threat to humanity, while I am explicitly assuming
that it is.
I'm also implicitly assuming that a Slayer's job is not to prevent
apocalypses, but to just slay vampires and evil demons. Case in point:
Anyanka said she barely escaped an apocalypse where the whole town got
swallowed or something like that. Since the world did not end, it must have
been just a "localized" instead of a global disaster. If a Slayer's job is
to prevent apocalypses, that might meant that some Slayer had failed in that
incident, and might have been killed. It will stand to reason that the next
Slayer should go there to see if the local disaster might turn global.
All in all, the entire mythology about Slayer activation is a plate of
"spaghetti" and it will take a lot of deep thinking to salvage it into a
coherent whole.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
(Harmony) Watcher
"mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
news:mair_fheal-26F75...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> In article <O8nYg.141446$5R2.21474@pd7urf3no>,
> "\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
>
> > Lack of evidence does not and cannot prove non-existence of the third
> > Slayer. After all, we do not know the mechanics of how one is triggered.
> >
> > A logical *assumption* would be "activation by proximity": that a
Potential
> > closest to place of death of the exited Slayer would be activated so
that
> > the newly activated Slayer would not be hampered by great distances and
> > could not get to where she would be needed the most--the place where the
> > previous Slayer just died. But that is just an *assumption*. No on
screen
> > evidence for that.
>
> assumptions multiply without limit
>
>
--
==Harmony Watcher==
Stephen Tempest
>And it's not "advising" her to leave - Dawn throws her sister out onto
>the street: "You can't be a part of it. So I need you to leave."
Bear in mind that Dawn is physically incapable of throwing Buffy out
onto the street unless Buffy chooses to let her. It seemed to me more
like Buffy just gave up.
>> An interesting comparison here would be Wesley taking over from Angel
>> as head of Angel Investigations.
>
>I don't see the connection.
Angel was the undisputed leader of the group.... but when he came back
to join them after his epiphany, he was willing to accept Wesley as
his boss.. and even put up with a certain amout of hazing from the
others. (Making coffee, etc).
Buffy's faced with a similar situation now that Faith has been elected
the leader: but unlike Angel, she can't take being knocked off her
pedestal. She walks out rather than accept Faith as leader.
"I don't know if I can lead. But the real question is...can you
follow?"
(Vagrerfgvatyl, gubhtu, vs lbh ybbx ng gur ybat-grez cvpgher, Natry
tenqhnyyl jbexf uvf jnl onpx vagb pbzznaq, naq Ohssl frrzf gb or
npprcgvat Snvgu nf zber bs na rdhny; fb gurve vavgvny ernpgvba vfa'g
gur shyy fgbel...)
Stephen
BTR1701
Mel <melb...@uci.net> wrote:
> BTR1701 wrote:
>
> > In article <TOGdnWMGbqP00q3Y...@uci.net>,
> > Mel <melb...@uci.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>BTR1701 wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>In article <1160737187....@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
> >>> "jil...@hotmail.com" <jil...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>And again, we see them forget all about Slayer instinct. Well, and
> >>>>some of the viewers, too. Buffy FEELS that there really IS something
> >>>>in that winery that she should have. She knows it on a gut level.
> >>>>Unfortunately, no one else does and she can't reason with them on a gut
> >>>>instinct.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>If it's Slayer instinct, then Faith's instincts are just as credible as
> >>>Buffy's.
> >>
> >>
> >>She hasn't been fighting the battle that Buffy has every day for 7+
> >>years.
> >
> >
> > That would imply that the instincts are something which are developed
> > over time with experience. The original claim was that these are
> > instincts inherent to the power of the Slayer.
>
> Instincts are inherent, yes. Learning to listen to them and know what
> they mean, that comes with experience. Something Faith doesn't have.
Something you *suppose* she doesn't have. You have no way of knowing for
sure either way since the show never told us.
BTR1701
davi...@supanet.com wrote:
This is what I don't get. This pervasive assumption that if a new Slayer
had been called, she'd immediately make a pilgrimage to Sunnydale. She
could have been a peasant girl in Siberia for all we know who has no
idea about Sunnydale or any desire to go there.
She could have fallen afoul of some uncommonly intelligent demon
somewhere and be imprisoned herself.
There are many reasons why she wouldn't just catch the first slow boat
to Sunnydale. There were thousands of Slayers before Buffy and I bet
very few (if any) of them went to Sunnydale. Why it's assumed that they
should now all go there is puzzling to me.
BTR1701
"\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
> A logical *assumption* would be "activation by proximity": that a Potential
> closest to place of death of the exited Slayer would be activated so that
> the newly activated Slayer would not be hampered by great distances and
> could not get to where she would be needed the most--the place where the
> previous Slayer just died. But that is just an *assumption*.
And an assumption not borne out by the evidence. When Kendra died in
California, Faith was activated in Boston, on the other side of the
continent.
BTR1701
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
Not to mention the show itself contradicts the "closest potential rule".
Kendra was killed in California and her death called Faith who was in
Boston. Hardly right around the corner.
davi...@supanet.com
(Harmony) Watcher wrote:
>
>
> > On the other hand, if Buffy's death at the end of S5 triggered a new
> > Slayer, then one would have thought, after nearly 2 years have passed,
> > that someone might have noticed the existence of a new Slayer, and who
> > might have been expected to make an appearance. No mention of this
> > theoretical third slayer by the First, the CoW, Giles, or anyone.
> > Absolutely zilch evidence.
> >
> Lack of evidence does not and cannot prove non-existence of the third
> Slayer. After all, we do not know the mechanics of how one is triggered.
>
Indeed. However, one might have thought that someone, somewhere might
have noted and remarked on an appearance of a new Slayer. We see that
the CoW has people all around the world, and have Watchers working with
potential slayers; yet they act as though they knew of no third Slayer.
Lack of evidence isn't necessarily proof of non-existence, but after
nigh on 2 years, it's starting to stretch the credibility somewhat that
there might be a Third Slayer that no-one has noticed/commented upon.
> A logical *assumption* would be "activation by proximity": that a Potential
> closest to place of death of the exited Slayer would be activated so that
> the newly activated Slayer would not be hampered by great distances and
> could not get to where she would be needed the most--the place where the
> previous Slayer just died. But that is just an *assumption*. No on screen
> evidence for that.
>
There are any number of triggers for which Potential gets triggered
when a Slayer dies, for which there is very limited evidence. Buffy
died; Kendra triggered (assuming there were no intervening Slayers who
have a very short life span). Buffy dies in California, and Kendra is
triggered some distance from California (the Caribbean, if memory
serves). Kendra dies, and Faith is triggered. Kendra dies in
California, Faith is triggered in what one assumes is east coast USA
(judging by accent and comments by Faith about activities in Boston).
If your assumption holds, then that would imply that there are only a
few potentials at any given time - proximity seems to be from one side
of the USA to the other.
Other assumptions include randomness (or on some mystic explanation
that in efect is random); or something else. No evidence available.
The CoW had a whole bunch of Potentials working with Watchers, which
would suggest that the CoW didn't know for sure where the next
Potential raised to Slayer might take place (and, IIRC, they missed
Buffy herself, who turned out to be a Slayer who didn't have an
observed Potential status, and only got Watcher attention when she
became a Slayer).
I'm inclined to the "It's random" theory, but there's limited evidence.
davi...@supanet.com
> >
> > When a Slayer dies, the new Slayer is probably called someplace close to
> > where the Slayer will be needed next, no matter where the last Slayer
> > was killed.
> >
> Whatever killed the last Slayer must be a great enough threat to humanity,
> no? That makes the area where the last Slayer died the place where the new
> Slayer would be needed the most.
>
Not necessarily. Sometimes a Slayer just gets unlucky. Buffy was nearly
killed by a single ordinary vampire in Fool For Love. That vampire
wasn't a major threat to humanity. The Slayer Spike killed during the
Boxer Rebellion is another example; Spike, while threat to the
locality, was never a threat to all humanity, and the problems that
arose from the Spike Gang were essentially localised issues.
jil...@hotmail.com
Stephen Tempest wrote:
> We know, courtesy of Beljoxa's Eye, that it's Buffy's continued
> existence that's creating the weakness in the Slayer line. Kill her,
> and the weakness will correct itself; the Slayer line will no longer
> be vulnerable and The First's plan will be impossible to complete.
>
> Presumably killing Faith wouldn't have the same effect; we'd just get
> another Slayer being called.
We don't know that the weakness will correct itself by killing Buffy.
That's a guess based on the fact that The First doesn't want her
killed. Also, we don't know that killing Faith will call another
Slayer now. THAT may be what's caused the problem.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > Her first reaction to being
> > removed from office is no, I'm right, I can't stand by idly and watch
> > you throw your lives away.
>
> Which is a very odd sentiment for Buffy to express, considering that
> she's the one who just proposed leading them all on a suicide mission.
> She proposed that they attack exactly the same position, with exactly
> the same forces, with exactly the same plan (i.e., no plan at all) as
> before - basically, an exact repeat of the first battle that got two
> Potentials killed and Xander's eye gouged out.
> Albert Einsetin's definition of insanity is doing the same thing over
> and over again and expecting a different result. When your leader is
> demonstrably insane, replacing that leader ASAP is the correct and
> proper thing to do.
The difference is that last time she was mostly looking for something
to beat up and a dramatic combat situation to mobilize the troops.
This time, those instincts she's learned to trust over the years are
working, and she "knows" that going to the vineyard is the right thing
to do. She's entirely sure that it's the way to save the world.
She can't successfully convey this difference to the others, which is
why from their persepctive it's insane in the way you describe, and it
makes sense that even her closest friends can't back her on this plan.
-AOQ
vague disclaimer
Or we could just enjoy the story.
--
What does not kill me makes me stronger. Unless it leaves me as a quadriplegic.
vague disclaimer
Or maybe Faith presented the trip as an urgently needed break, rather
then a fait accompli bit of galavanting.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> writes:
>
> >And it's not "advising" her to leave - Dawn throws her sister out onto
> >the street: "You can't be a part of it. So I need you to leave."
>
> Bear in mind that Dawn is physically incapable of throwing Buffy out
> onto the street unless Buffy chooses to let her. It seemed to me more
> like Buffy just gave up.
Physical force is hardly a prerequisite for kicking someone out of a
place.
> >> An interesting comparison here would be Wesley taking over from Angel
> >> as head of Angel Investigations.
> >
> >I don't see the connection.
>
> Angel was the undisputed leader of the group.... but when he came back
> to join them after his epiphany, he was willing to accept Wesley as
> his boss.. and even put up with a certain amout of hazing from the
> others. (Making coffee, etc).
>
> Buffy's faced with a similar situation now that Faith has been elected
> the leader: but unlike Angel, she can't take being knocked off her
> pedestal. She walks out rather than accept Faith as leader.
The situations are really too dissimilar for the comparison to mean
much. Buffy's problem is that this is a crisis situation, lives are on
the line, and she's utterly convinced that she's right and the others
are wrong. Everything happens in a few minutes. In Angel's case, he
fired his crew and went off on his own, they kept things going, and
then weeks or months later he'd found epiphany and humility and decided
to apply for a job (and as of the end of S2, he still seems to jump at
any chance he can get to do things his way).
-AOQ
vague disclaimer
Mel <melb...@uci.net> wrote:
> Naq Snvgu'f cyna va gur arkg rcvfbqr vf ubj zhpu orggre? Whfg orpnhfr
> gurl nyy nterrq gb vg znxrf vg n orggre cyna? Ab, gurl jnyx vagb lrg
> nabgure genc ohg abobql xvpxf Snvgu bhg bs gur ubhfr nf n erfhyg.
V guvax gung'f engure gur cbvag: vafgvapg bs vagryyvtrapr-onfrq, arvgure
nccebnpu pna jbex fb ybat nf cbjre vf pbapragengrq ng gur gbc.
Arbitrar Of Quality
(Harmony) Watcher wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1160884932.0...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> > Stephen Tempest wrote:
> >
> > > We know, courtesy of Beljoxa's Eye, that it's Buffy's continued
> > > existence that's creating the weakness in the Slayer line. Kill her,
> > > and the weakness will correct itself; the Slayer line will no longer
> > > be vulnerable and The First's plan will be impossible to complete.
> > >
> > > Presumably killing Faith wouldn't have the same effect; we'd just get
> > > another Slayer being called.
> >
> > Thanks for posting that, because it's surprisingly easy to forget that.
> > Yeah, that would mean that the First has a reason for not killing
> > Buffy. It needs her, and she's, as far as we know, unaware of that.
> >
> >
> No, that there was a weakness in the Slayer line because of Buffy's
> resurrection makes little sense to me.
So, what, the Eye lied? That's the plot, as established in "Showtime."
-AOQ
Mel
The ITW scene and this one in EP are similar only in the fact I hate
them both :-) Probably the only 2 things about BtVS I would change if I
could. And without that last Riley/Buffy scene in ITW, there would be no
AYW so, yay!
The potentials came to Sunnydale and what? Expect to sit around all day
cowering in fear while Buffy does all their fighting for them? They
somehow resent that she's training them to fight their own battles, and
yes, in war, people die. Welcome to reality.
Why should Buffy be the leader? How about, because it's her house they
are living in? Because she's the one they came to for protection?
Because, without her, they would probably already be dead? Rona at the
bus station, for example. Because, as she says, for 7 years she's been
the leader, waging war against evil when it comes knocking?
They suffered a loss and are ready to give up. Apparently, they still
need some more training. What if Faith hadn't come to town? Who would be
the leader then? Giles? Willow? <cough> Kennedy?
Mel
Mel
davi...@supanet.com wrote:
It's possible there was no new Slayer after The Gift because Buffy died
outside time and space ie inside the portal. The trigger set up in the
Earth dimension didn't sense her moment of death.
Thus, the Slayer line is broken, not because Buffy lives (ooh, could
Giles be wrong about that??) but because Buffy died, and was dead for
several months, but no new Slayer was activated.
This does not preclude a new Slayer if Buffy is killed by the First or
its agents, which would be a good reason to leave her for last.
Mel
Mel
(Harmony) Watcher wrote:
Well, look at who we have seen activated in the show. When Buffy died in
Prophecy Girl, Kendra was activated. Where was Kendra living? She was
presumably with her Watcher and training with him. In her home country
somewhere in the Caribbean? In England with the Watchers Council? We
don't know exactly, but she was far enough away to require an airplane
ride to get to there in What's My Line?
When Kendra died in Becoming, Faith was called. Faith is from Boston. Is
that where she was at the time? Likely, training with her Watcher who
was later killed by Kakistos. After that, Faith made her way to
Sunnydale, showing up in Faith, Hope, & Trick. There's only a few months
in between, so she probably hitch-hiked, fighting demons and vamps all
the way there.
The point being, Sunnydale in both cases was where the current Slayer
died, but it took several months for the newly called Slayer to get
there. That doesn't really support the theory of the new Slayer being
called in close proximity to the old one. Surely some other potential
would have been closer already?
Mel
Mel
BTR1701 wrote:
Yes, it did. While Buffy has been fighting battles at the hellmouth for
7 years, Faith has been:
A) just a potential, not even a character in the show yet
B) a Slayer and comrade of Buffy, following her lead but also setting a
not-so-good-example that Buffy at first follows and then rejects
C) a psychopathic killer and
D) in prison learning to control and master her killing instincts.
When during all that time has Faith developed the experience of fighting
battles that Buffy has?
Mel
Mel
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
Not the Eye lied, but Giles misinterpreted what it was really saying. We
only hear what he thought it said, that it was "clearly" talking about
Buffy being alive, not that she died.
Mel
burt...@hotmail.com
> burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > > Her first reaction to being
> > > removed from office is no, I'm right, I can't stand by idly and watch
> > > you throw your lives away.
> >
> > Which is a very odd sentiment for Buffy to express, considering that
> > she's the one who just proposed leading them all on a suicide mission.
> > She proposed that they attack exactly the same position, with exactly
> > the same forces, with exactly the same plan (i.e., no plan at all) as
> > before - basically, an exact repeat of the first battle that got two
> > Potentials killed and Xander's eye gouged out.
>
> > Albert Einsetin's definition of insanity is doing the same thing over
> > and over again and expecting a different result. When your leader is
> > demonstrably insane, replacing that leader ASAP is the correct and
> > proper thing to do.
>
> The difference is that last time she was mostly looking for something
> to beat up and a dramatic combat situation to mobilize the troops.
> This time, those instincts she's learned to trust over the years are
> working, and she "knows" that going to the vineyard is the right thing
> to do. She's entirely sure that it's the way to save the world.
In that case, the right thing for Buffy to do would have been to get
some reinforcements and/or formulate some kind of plan before taking
them all back to the vineyard. After all, knowing that there's
something important at the vineyard does them no good if they can't
survive long enough to get it. Buffy could have said "I'm going to call
Riley and have him send a few soldiers with automatic weapons to take
care of Caleb." Or "We'll bring Willow along this time and she'll use
magic on Caleb." She could have given her friends and the Potentials
some indication that the second battle was going to be different from
the first - but she didn't, and that's *her* failure as a leader.
Buffy trusting her instincts is all well and good, but she needs to use
her brain too. She wasn't here, and that's what got her replaced as
leader.
Mel
burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
They weren't going to go back no matter what. They'd already decided
that much. They didn't want to talk strategy or tactics. They were
convinced Caleb couldn't he hurt at all because he beat them in one
battle. Just like they were convinced the ubervamp couldn't be killed
because Buffy lost one fight.
They don't believe. At some point, that can no longer come from the top.
It has to come from within.
Mel
Don Sample
"\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
> "Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
> news:dsample-A51E73...@news.giganews.com...
> > In article <O8nYg.141446$5R2.21474@pd7urf3no>,
> > "\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
> > When a Slayer dies, the new Slayer is probably called someplace close to
> > where the Slayer will be needed next, no matter where the last Slayer
> > was killed.
> >
> Whatever killed the last Slayer must be a great enough threat to humanity,
> no? That makes the area where the last Slayer died the place where the new
> Slayer would be needed the most.
Most Slayers are killed by J. Random Demon, not something bent on world
destruction. Spike killed two, and he was never a risk to humanity in
general, just the people who happened to be in the same neighbourhood as
him.
> > Prior to the 20th century, most people lived their entire lives within a
> > few miles of their birth places. Slayers might travel farther than the
> > average person, but it would be rare for one to travel more than a few
> > hundred miles. If a Slayer was needed on the far side of the world
> > there would be no way for her to travel there, and using a "closest
> > potential" calling rule, there's no way a Slayer could have ever been
> > called in the Americas, if one were ever needed there.
> >
> I might agree with you if the last Slayer died of natural causes. You are
> implicitly assuming that whatever caused the last Slayer to die will no
> longer be the most urgent threat to humanity, while I am explicitly assuming
> that it is.
As I pointed out, Spike was never a great threat to the world, and he
killed two Slayers.
> I'm also implicitly assuming that a Slayer's job is not to prevent
> apocalypses, but to just slay vampires and evil demons. Case in point:
> Anyanka said she barely escaped an apocalypse where the whole town got
> swallowed or something like that. Since the world did not end, it must have
> been just a "localized" instead of a global disaster. If a Slayer's job is
> to prevent apocalypses, that might meant that some Slayer had failed in that
> incident, and might have been killed. It will stand to reason that the next
> Slayer should go there to see if the local disaster might turn global.
>
That was an Ascension, not an apocalypse. Like volcanic eruptions,
Ascensions are bad news for anyone who happens to be in the
neighbourhood, but not for the world in general. Sending a Slayer to
the site of an Ascension, after it has already happened, would be a
classic case of locking the barn door after the horses have already
escaped.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
theres a big chunk of macguffin in the season
which is never explained
what is the weakness? why does buffy living again cause it?
can the first kill all the potentials? why does that work?
how does this threaten the slayer line? is faith a natural brunette?
who was the third man? is harry lime really dead?
at some point you just have to sit back and enjoy the zither
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> to beat up and a dramatic combat situation to mobilize the troops.
doesnt matter
she cant get be proactive with pep and get teh potentials strong enough
the basement is calebs ground (in military terms)
and he exploits his ground wonderfully
buffy has to figure out some new tactic
such as lure caleb out where his loses his advantage
or somehow neutralize his advanrage
such as the time willow went into the vace with her and did the fogging spe;;
Stephen Tempest
>Indeed. However, one might have thought that someone, somewhere might
>have noted and remarked on an appearance of a new Slayer. We see that
>the CoW has people all around the world, and have Watchers working with
>potential slayers; yet they act as though they knew of no third Slayer.
i'm still half-convinced that the Third Slayer was Whfgvar.
>Kendra dies, and Faith is triggered. Kendra dies in
>California, Faith is triggered in what one assumes is east coast USA
>(judging by accent and comments by Faith about activities in Boston).
>
>If your assumption holds, then that would imply that there are only a
>few potentials at any given time - proximity seems to be from one side
>of the USA to the other.
There was at least one Potential right there in Sunnydale when Kendra
died - Amanda. (Unless she was on holiday in Europe or something at
the time...)
Stephen
Don Sample
Stephen Tempest <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> davi...@supanet.com writes:
>
> >Indeed. However, one might have thought that someone, somewhere might
> >have noted and remarked on an appearance of a new Slayer. We see that
> >the CoW has people all around the world, and have Watchers working with
> >potential slayers; yet they act as though they knew of no third Slayer.
>
> i'm still half-convinced that the Third Slayer was Whfgvar.
>
>
> >Kendra dies, and Faith is triggered. Kendra dies in
> >California, Faith is triggered in what one assumes is east coast USA
> >(judging by accent and comments by Faith about activities in Boston).
> >
> >If your assumption holds, then that would imply that there are only a
> >few potentials at any given time - proximity seems to be from one side
> >of the USA to the other.
We've seen that there are a lot of them, many of whom are Americans.
> There was at least one Potential right there in Sunnydale when Kendra
> died - Amanda. (Unless she was on holiday in Europe or something at
> the time...)
But Amanda would have been about 11 years old at the time, too young to
be called yet.
burt...@hotmail.com
It's a leader's job to inspire confidence in their troops. Buffy failed
at that. When a battle goes badly, it's a leader's job to do everything
they can to make sure the next one will go better. Buffy failed at
that, too, or more accurately, she didn't even try. She told her
friends and the Potentials "you have to fall in line!" when falling in
line and doing what Buffy said already resulted in two of them getting
killed and one of them getting maimed and got them nothing in return.
Buffy was trying to order them all to go on a suicide mission. They
were absolutely right to refuse her.
Jeff Jacoby
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> writes:
>
>>And it's not "advising" her to leave - Dawn throws her sister out onto
>>the street: "You can't be a part of it. So I need you to leave."
>
> Bear in mind that Dawn is physically incapable of throwing Buffy out
> onto the street unless Buffy chooses to let her. It seemed to me more
> like Buffy just gave up.
>
>>> as head of Angel Investigations.
>>
>>I don't see the connection.
>
> Angel was the undisputed leader of the group.... but when he came back
> to join them after his epiphany, he was willing to accept Wesley as
> his boss.. and even put up with a certain amout of hazing from the
> others. (Making coffee, etc).
>
> Buffy's faced with a similar situation now that Faith has been elected
> the leader: but unlike Angel, she can't take being knocked off her
> pedestal. She walks out rather than accept Faith as leader.
>
> follow?"
Buffy: You want to surprise the enemy? Surprise yourselves.
Force yourself to do what can't be done...
Maybe Buffy should surprise herself, see if she can
indeed follow.
Jeff
Jeff Jacoby
> davi...@supanet.com writes:
>
>>Indeed. However, one might have thought that someone, somewhere might
>>have noted and remarked on an appearance of a new Slayer. We see that
>>the CoW has people all around the world, and have Watchers working with
>>potential slayers; yet they act as though they knew of no third Slayer.
>
> i'm still half-convinced that the Third Slayer was Whfgvar.
Ubygm znantrq gb orng ure hc cerggl rnfvyl.
Jeff
(Harmony) Watcher
"mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mair_fheal-F4C96...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> > Dead Sunnydale. The mass exodus scene in the teaser and first act is
> > composed well; there's a good "bad" feel to it. The classic
> > visual of Clem just driving along in the middle of daytime traffic
> > seems almost like a payoff gag after years of seeing what Sunnydalians
> > are capable of ignoring. He also helps set a tone right away, since
>
> ignore what? hes just a guy with a bad skin condition
>
> > One has to wonder why the doctors don't, you know, tell Xander the
> > latest news about his condition instead of passing it along via his
>
>
> werent you asking about anya and faith?
> we now know at least offscreen how faith deals with her
>
> and how suddenly the cot becomes an uncomfortable place
> for potentials to sit on
>
> > Not content with last time, we need another confrontation with Preacher
> > Tightpants. One gets the impression that he doesn't like women. Not
> > much new of interest on that front, although those look like some
>
> i was also thinking what a shame
> xander was working on the school all summer
> and it doesnt make even one full year before being abandoned
>
> we do what we can for the future but you dont know what comes until it
comes
>
> > which a Buffyverse villain could kill the hero if he wanted to but
> > doesn't... given how having her around is generally death to any Big
> > Bad plan, this one had better be a good one. I'll also point out
>
> the plan has been consistent - to kill all the potentials
> then kill the slayers and there will be no succession
> then the first can unleash the turok-han unopposed on earth
>
> we dont get a detailed explanation that the plan will work
> but quentin and giles have believed it to be signficant threat
> so i take it on faith that the first has a real chance at success
>
>
> so buffy and faith are to be kept alive until everyone else dies
>
By the way, this line of reasoning (which seems to be what the writers are
saying) implies that there is already a third Slayer in existence after
Buffy's second death at the end of Season 5.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
BTR1701
Mel <melb...@uci.net> wrote:
No, the point is that you're just supposing that all of those factors
make Buffy's instincts superior to Faith's. You don't know for sure that
that is the case since the show never told us that Buffy's instincts are
superior to Faith's. You're just assuming they are.
(Harmony) Watcher
"Mel" <melb...@uci.net> wrote in message
news:d66dnfmv9uZG7a_Y...@uci.net...
Amanda being activated as the third Slayer already.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
Don Sample
"\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
We don't really know what the First's plan is. Giles and the council
have some theories, based on what they have observed of its actions, but
they might still be wrong.
One thing that I've noticed about the First is that it never seems to
have just one plan. It's got several of them, running in parallel.
Some of the plans seem to be contradictory. It lets two or more plans
run at the same time, until it decides which of them is going to be the
one that works best, and then it abandons the others.
> >
> > so buffy and faith are to be kept alive until everyone else dies
> >
> By the way, this line of reasoning (which seems to be what the writers are
> saying) implies that there is already a third Slayer in existence after
> Buffy's second death at the end of Season 5.
But we know that the First made at least one attempt on Faith's life
before she came to Sunnydale, so it seems it doesn't care if she dies.
(Harmony) Watcher
trouble with your "dynamic" theory of activation (the Potential closest to
the place where a Slayer is next needed the most) requires an element of
"intelligence": who/what decides where a Slayer is next most urgently
needed? One could always chalk it up to something built into the mystical
nature of the spell, but that's just too convenient for my taste.
As mentioned upthread, the "static" theory of "activation by closest
proximity to the death site of the exit Slayer" has been shot out of the
water because it were true, Amanda would have been activated since the end
of Season 5 [note 1]. But as we all know, Amanda did not get activated by
Buffy's second death.
[1]... unless, of course, Buffy's second death simply could not activate
Potentials, and the First and the writers themselves were all just being
silly).
--
==Harmony Watcher==
(Harmony) Watcher
--
==Harmony Watcher==
Michael Ikeda
news:O5-dnRHXV5Sm9q_Y...@uci.net:
> The potentials came to Sunnydale and what? Expect to sit around
> all day cowering in fear while Buffy does all their fighting for
> them? They somehow resent that she's training them to fight
> their own battles, and yes, in war, people die. Welcome to
> reality.
>
The potentials aren't driving the argument in EP. BUFFY is driving
the argument. She keeps escalating the argument, in the hope that
continually upping the stakes will get the Scoobies to cave. And it
isn't the potentials discontent that matters, it's the Scoobies
discontent and specifically Willow and Xander's discontent.
The thing is, the Scoobies have been around Buffy long enough to
realize when she isn't thinking clearly. And she ISN'T thinking
clearly at that point. What the Scoobies wanted Buffy to do was back
off for a bit at least until she'd had more time to think things
through or more information came in. Buffy, however, forced the
argument until dissent turned into outright rebellion and then tried
to recover with an unsuccessful ultimatum.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Michael Ikeda
news:AHyYg.143201$5R2.80584@pd7urf3no:
>
> [1]... unless, of course, Buffy's second death simply could not
> activate Potentials, and the First and the writers themselves
> were all just being silly).
No evidence is ever presented that ANY of the characters with any
reason to have an interest in the matter thinks that Buffy's S5 death
actually activated a Slayer.
(Harmony) Watcher
don't like part that assumes the inability of the spell to sense Buffy's
death inside the portal. I'm rot13ing the rest because I don't remember
where AoQ was in AtS. Sbe nyy jr xabj, zntvpx jbexf va Clyrn whfg nf jryy nf
va Ohssl'f ubzr qvzrafvba. Vg frrzf yvxr vg'f zber ernfbanoyr gb nffhzr gung
rireljurer va gur havirefr, gur ynjf tbireavat zntvpx fubhyq or gur fnzr nf
ybat nf gurer vf gur creinfvir zlfgvpny rgure. Creuncf, gura, nyy zlfgvpny
cbegnyf ner qribvq bs gur zlfgvpny rgure. Ab rgure, ab zntvpx.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
(Harmony) Watcher
> who was the third man? is harry lime really dead?
>
> at some point you just have to sit back and enjoy the zither
>
Zither music makes the earth move under my feet.
When the whole Dawn-the-MacGuffin is just a glowy green ball of energy, I
can take a dose of suspension of disbelief because they did not attempt to
explain its origin. On the other hand, when they tried a half-hearted
attempt to explain the so-called "weakness in the Slayer line" via Beljoxa's
Eye, it ceased to be just a pure MacGuffin to me.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
Don Sample
If 11 year olds were eligible to be called, why aren't there any in
Buffy's house now? The youngest of the MC30 seem to be 14 or 15.
There seems to be a window, from 14 or 15 to about 20 during which a
Potential may be called. (Kennedy at 19 speculates that she may be too
old already.) Younger or older than that, and they're safe.
(Harmony) Watcher
<jil...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1160920465....@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Stephen Tempest wrote:
> > We know, courtesy of Beljoxa's Eye, that it's Buffy's continued
> > existence that's creating the weakness in the Slayer line. Kill her,
> > and the weakness will correct itself; the Slayer line will no longer
> > be vulnerable and The First's plan will be impossible to complete.
> >
> > Presumably killing Faith wouldn't have the same effect; we'd just get
> > another Slayer being called.
>
> That's a guess based on the fact that The First doesn't want her
> killed. Also, we don't know that killing Faith will call another
> Slayer now. THAT may be what's caused the problem.
>
Preacher man did not kill Buffy at the high school. Why? Perhaps he was
under the First's direct command not to kill her? Why? Perhaps Buffy's death
would trigger yet another Slayer? And this would strongly suggest that her
second death had already triggered a third one already.
On the other hand, if Faith's death now would not trigger another Slayer,
why didn't the First try even harder to kill Faith even before she came to
Sunnydale in addition to the attempt to kill her in prison?
--
==Harmony Watcher==
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
because buffy was supposed to lead the potentials
into underground vault of his choosing
with no easy retreat and a bomb ticking down to zero