AOQ Review 4-16: "Who Are You?"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Four, Episode 16: "Who Are You?"
(or "To cut her throat i' the church")
Writer: Joss Whedon
Director: Joss Whedon
According to Mrs. Q., the post-intro credits list "Eliza Dushku as
Buffy." I'm amused.
The first question one is inclined to ask with an episode like this is
how the actors will do when suddenly forced to play a different
character (and in Gellar's case, a character trying to pose as her
usual role). SMG gets more screen time, and she's good. I thought
some of the early act-two scenes were a little *too* much Buffy
(obviously her imitation had to be good enough to not arouse alarm with
the Scoobies, but I thought it was a little excessive), but most of the
time it's not hard to imagine another character underneath (more on
that in a second). Dushku isn't in this one so much, I don't know
if Joss thought Gellar was the stronger actor or just that Buffy's
role in the episode wasn't as interesting. In any case, she's also
solid, and I could see the Buffy there during her scene with Giles.
Nice to know that any Slayer in that body is going to be good with her
feet...
So now that she literally has Buffy's identity, what to do with it?
If nothing else, WAY reminds me that the body-switch isn't just a
cheap plot device, it's a logical place to take Faith given her
identity search last year. Particular praise for writing and acting
should go to Faith's very earliest scenes, in which the viewer truly
believes that it's Faith there doing a bad Buffy impression. The
first "because it's wrong!" sequence is a good example of humor
with a point. ("Because it's wrong" is probably my favorite
line-that-recurs-through-an-episode-with-different-meanings deal of the
series so far.) Also, nice recovery with the lipstick; much as I was
hoping Joyce would do more, one can see why she wouldn't expect the
unexpectable.
Faith's fantasy of stabbing Willow is nice-n-shocking, both in its
suddenness and in the sudden reveal. It's the only time this episode
uses that device; a lesser show would've overdone it.
It makes sense from a plot standpoint that the Watchers' Council or
their representatives would get involved, but I don't care much about
them. Now, didn't part one end with Giles being ominously confronted
by British guys? Now are we supposed to think that they were just
dropping by to give him a heads-up? I'm a little confused.
Maybe I'll pretend to care about Adam again next week, but not during
a Faith episode, okay? The vampires after they've become fearless
are good enough baddies in a disposable way.
In the Bronze, the writers take another chance to let magic put a
different spin on the Gellar/Marsters chemistry. Spike telling Faith
what they both "should" already know is a little too contrivance-y,
but the rest of the scene is entertaining; someone certainly seems to
like having that kind of sexual power over someone, and Spike's final
threat has teeth even if he doesn't. Faith is more casually bitchy
with Tara (sidenotes: I loved "So we've never met?;" "driving
stick" is a new one to me), but what I wasn't expecting was for the
latter to so easily figure out the truth. It'd be more obvious to
just have her be pouty, and we like to avoid the obvious here.
Willow and Tara's spell is shot in a very "magical" way, with the
lush music and the slow spread of the circle of fire. It's like
it's trying to induce a sense of wonder, like a Narnia or Potter
movie. That's an interesting contrast to the way magic is usually
portrayed on this series, and gorgeous to watch, especially with the
dialogue pushed to the background of the audio mix. Now, going to
ROT-13 for a second, bar nern ba juvpu V'z abg ernyyl gbgnyyl hafcbvyrq
pbapreaf gur gjb jvgpurf, nygubhtu nyy V ernyyl xabj vf gung gurl
riraghnyyl trg gbtrgure va n jnl gung fbzr ivrjref svaq
haurnygul/gjvfgrq/nohfvir. Fb V znl abg or nf creprcgvir nf V frrz
jvgu nal "vafvtugf." In any case, along with the magic and sweetness,
there are a few quietly offputting things here, mostly through
comparison with the rest of the episode. I mean, obviously the spell
is played like a sex scene, but more to the point, notice *which* sex
scene it's juxtaposed with. Also Willow's comment about wanting
something that's "hers" makes sense in a geeky Willowy way, but
Tara's worshipful "I am, you know" is less innocent... and note
that of all the episodes in which this conversation could've taken
place, the writers chose this one. Hmm. Just some idle speculation.
>From there we should talk about Faith seducing Riley, except that most
of that pretty much speaks for itself. I couldn't shake the feeling
that I should've found it more disturbing or engaging than it
actually was. I think I'll irrationally blame Riley, just because.
With Faith's recoiling both before and after, it's, as always, hard
to figure out exactly what's going on with her. Things start to
clarify a little during her interesting brief scene with Forrest. And
then there's [continued in a later paragraph]
I wasn't as happy with some of the early dialogue during the
Buffy/Giles scene. Not the best time to use Rupert as comic relief,
and Buffy should've gone with the facts-as-proof strategy right away.
Things shape up, since we do feel that it's Buffy, trying to reach
out. There's the logical mention of the events of "A New Man,"
and then how 'bout her relating Joyce's thoughts ("do you want me
to continue?" "Actually, I beg you to stop")? Now *that's*
funny. I don't know what a whatever-dor is either.
Xander (and Anya) make a fairly limited ultimate contribution to this
one, huh? I kinda don't know why Xander's even in the show
anymore, given that the series hasn't had much interest in doing
anything with him all year, and he's portrayed so wildly
inconsistently by the different writers anyway. Maybe he should've
become invisible to the audience instead of the other characters in
"Fear Itself."
[continued from earlier paragraph] her constant repetition of "I'm
Buffy" towards the end, and it culminates in her massive release of
"self"-loathing during the final fight scene. The images in this
part are good, between once again using the BG/"Consequences" view
of "Faith" stabbing a vamp from behind to save "Buffy," and
then Faith immediately going after Buffy with intent to maim. And in
the end, she runs away without a word...
This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
- Xander claiming his "hey."
- "I guess that's just regular justice"
- Willow bringing up hyena posessions
We don't get much of a handle yet on how Slayer and Soldier-Boy will
relate to each other now. At least she tells him the story, and
there's no irrational blame as far as I can see. The rather abrupt
non-resolution to Faith' story is strange. I just assume that means
we'll see her again. I'm trying not to get too excited over what
could be nothing, but I do know that there's an _Angel_ episode
coming a few weeks from now called "Five By Five."
So...
One-sentence summary: Hey, it's a Buffy/Faith show, of course it'll
be good.
AOQ rating: Good
[Season Four so far:
1) "The Freshman" - Good
2) "Living Conditions" - Decent
3) "The Harsh Light Of Day" - Good
4) "Fear Itself" - Decent
5) "Beer Bad" - Weak
6) "Wild At Heart" - Excellent
7) "The Initiative" - Decent
8) "Pangs" - Good
9) "Something Blue" - Good
10) "Hush" - Good
11) "Doomed" - Weak
12) "A New Man" - Decent
13) "The I In Team" - Good
14) "Goodbye Iowa" - Good
15) "This Year's Girl" - Good
16) "Who Are You?" - Good]
Arbitrar Of Quality
your time responding.
-AOQ
jil...@hotmail.com
This was a good story. Faith trying to become Buffy attacks herself
(and we know it's herself she's attacking) and tries to kill the girl
who's done such terrible things. But whoops! Buffy gets her body back
and Faith is once again wearing her real face.
I'm sorry, but I live in a world where it is entirely reasonable that
Riley would have no clue, whatsoever, that this woman who looks,
smells, is in fact in the body of Buffy is not Buffy.
Darnit, there's so much I can't mention. But the actions Faith took in
this episode will have far-reaching repurcussions.
V zrna, guvf pbairefngvba jvgu Fcvxr vf jurer ur tbg gur vqrn gung
Ohssl unq n guvat sbe uvz. Ur qbrfa'g svther bhg hagvy Frnfba 7 gung
vg jnfa'g ure. Snvgu-nf-Ohssl chapuvat Evyrl va gur fgbznpur gb fubj
uvz ubj jrnx ur jnf, gung fcvenyf bhg yngre.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> I'm sorry, but I live in a world where it is entirely reasonable that
> Riley would have no clue, whatsoever, that this woman who looks,
> smells, is in fact in the body of Buffy is not Buffy.
Oh, just to clarify if there was confusion, I'm irrationally blaming
Riley for the scene not being more interesting/disturbing, because he's
boring. I don't blame him for not figuring out what was happening.
-AOQ
John Briggs
>
> According to Mrs. Q., the post-intro credits list "Eliza Dushku as
> Buffy."
So does the script, for that matter.
> Willow and Tara's spell is shot in a very "magical" way, with the
> lush music and the slow spread of the circle of fire. It's like
> it's trying to induce a sense of wonder, like a Narnia or Potter
> movie. That's an interesting contrast to the way magic is usually
> portrayed on this series, and gorgeous to watch, especially with the
> dialogue pushed to the background of the audio mix. Now, going to
> ROT-13 for a second, bar nern ba juvpu V'z abg ernyyl gbgnyyl
> hafcbvyrq pbapreaf gur gjb jvgpurf, nygubhtu nyy V ernyyl xabj vf
> gung gurl riraghnyyl trg gbtrgure va n jnl gung fbzr ivrjref svaq
> haurnygul/gjvfgrq/nohfvir. Fb V znl abg or nf creprcgvir nf V frrz
> jvgu nal "vafvtugf."
If you're saying what I think you're saying - well, I never figured you for
a bigot.
> In any case, along with the magic and sweetness,
> there are a few quietly offputting things here, mostly through
> comparison with the rest of the episode. I mean, obviously the spell
> is played like a sex scene, but more to the point, notice *which* sex
> scene it's juxtaposed with.
You missed the bit about them going to the 'nether-realm' :-)
> I wasn't as happy with some of the early dialogue during the
> Buffy/Giles scene. Not the best time to use Rupert as comic relief,
> and Buffy should've gone with the facts-as-proof strategy right away.
> Things shape up, since we do feel that it's Buffy, trying to reach
> out. There's the logical mention of the events of "A New Man,"
> and then how 'bout her relating Joyce's thoughts ("do you want me
> to continue?" "Actually, I beg you to stop")? Now *that's*
> funny. I don't know what a whatever-dor is either.
Don't they teach you people anything? Given its origin, I would expect it
to be an American word - like 'longshoreman', which is pretty well
exclusively American.
--
John Briggs
KenM47
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>
>
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Four, Episode 16: "Who Are You?"
>(or "To cut her throat i' the church")
>Writer: Joss Whedon
>Director: Joss Whedon
>
>According to Mrs. Q., the post-intro credits list "Eliza Dushku as
>Buffy." I'm amused.
>
<SNIP>
>
>AOQ rating: Good
>
Not a lot of time right now. Just want to say IMO, TYG/WAY together
are the absolute apex of the BtVS experience.
I know others see things differently, but IMO everything that has
happened up to this point incredibly comes together (and I'm not just
talking spells) in these two episodes. SMG acts up a storm. ED is no
slouch either. Willow/Tara take your breath away. Fuffy breaks your
empathetic heart. And Spike/Fuffy is good for a very erotic laugh.
The writing/directing/acting/music, all of it, just as perfect as it
will ever get. I can't praise these hours enough.
IMO, everything after this is anti-climactic (still not talking about
witches' spells).
Oddly enough, my favorite episodes involve the main cast playing
multiple roles. Take that William Shatner! This is the way to do it.
Ken (Brooklyn)
eli...@gmail.com
(by Spring Summers - I'd link you but sadly there are major spoilers in
other parts) that points out a lot of good stuff:
Like the Watcher goons, Faith has chosen to harden herself to avoid
pain and protect herself. She prefers it to allowing herself to be
hurt, the way Joyce and Tara are allowing Buffy and Willow to hurt
them. Faith believes these are her only two choices. But are they,
really? Must she be Tara, who retains her softness and ability to love
and feel - but puts up with Willow hiding her from her friends? Or
otherwise, must she continue to be like Collins and Weatherby, who stay
in control, impervious to pain, but have lost a good portion of their
humanity?
No. Those aren't Faith's only choices, as she learns in her
encounter with Riley. But Faith has believed in her "I'd rather be
tough than be a goody-two-shoes wimp" philosophy for so long, that
she is profoundly disturbed and confused by her encounter with the
imperturbable - but still very human - Riley.
What happens when Faith encounters Riley? Faith, as Buffy, tries to
take control of the sexual encounter with Riley. But he isn't
vulnerable to her kinky come-ons. He loves Buffy, and he takes a
simple, honest, loving - and irresistible - approach to dealing
with "Buffy's" unappealing suggestions. There are no ultimatums,
no games. Riley simply knows what he wants. He has self-respect, and
standards. He's interested in sex with Buffy, but not so desperate
or needy that he's willing to do things her way because he's afraid
she'll say no otherwise.
Riley's combination of strength and tenderness leaves Faith shaken
and confused. It doesn't fit into her view of the world as The Mayor
has defined it - a place where one is a master, or one is a slave. Her
night with Riley puts the final lie to Faith's long-held, cherished
belief that life is always a choice between eating or being eaten,
using or being used.
Now, Faith has been privy to the better life Buffy has achieved both
through the luck of the draw, and through Buffy's own strength and
difficult choices. In this environment, Faith's basic human needs
have begun to be met. Through her encounters with Joyce, Riley and
others, she experiences true love, trust, high expectations (Willow
expecting her to kill the vampire) and genuine appreciation (from the
girl she saves: "Thank you. Thank you!").
[...]
Like Buffy reacting to being injected with a sedative, or Spike
flinching at the pain from the chip, Faith responds to the internal
infusion of warmth she receives from Buffy's friends and family. The
feelings and realizations that begin coursing through her veins disturb
and frighten her, just as Joyce's hug did. She heads to the airport
to try to leave behind the confusion of this painful growth; after so
long in the dark, the light from above is hurting Faith's eyes. But
it's too late. It's in her system, now. She has begun,
irrevocably, to change, to climb toward that very light, despite the
pain. Listen to her exchange with Riley outside the church:
RILEY: "I don't want you risking-"
BUFFY: "I'm Buffy. I have to do this."
RILEY: "Then I'm coming with."
BUFFY: "I can't use you."
This is how she is feeling - that she has become Buffy. That - for
all her mocking of Buffy in the mirror earlier "It's wrong!" and
teasing of Spike "Because it's wrong!" - she has actually begun
to discover the significant difference between right and wrong. And
though her words to Riley are, on the surface about going into the
church alone, they also point out the fact that she has realized that
she "can't use" Riley. He's not like all the men she's used
before. And amazingly, his love for Buffy and his confident, kind,
patient nature are what protect Riley from being used. What a
revelation for Faith, who has always protected herself by not caring
and by using her fists.
Faith goes into the church a changed woman. She's very much like
Buffy in her sassy approach to the bad guys, and she battles evil with
all she's got. Then, she is suddenly confronted with an image from
her very recent and unhappy past - her body, with Buffy inside. The
Faith she loathed and tried to leave behind stands before her. Faith
explodes, beating her own face bloody while trying to deny its
existence: "You're nothing, you're nothing!!"
But growing and maturing and becoming the best person you can be
isn't as simple as excising your dark side. That's a fool's
errand anyhow, because exorcism is not an option. The road to a happy
and successful adulthood requires one to love, accept, integrate and
harness the power that dark side. Faith cannot leave any part of
herself behind, any more than Buffy can, anymore than any of us can.
There is no easy, painless way to the light. Leading a successful life
isn't about being in control of every situation. It's about taking
responsibility rather than control.
BTR1701
"John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > one area on which I'm not really totally
> > unspoiled concerns the two witches, although all I really know is
> > that they eventually get together in a way that some viewers find
> > unhealthy/twisted/abusive. So I may not be as perceptive as I seem
> > with any "insights."
>
> If you're saying what I think you're saying - well, I never figured you for
> a bigot.
What he's saying is that he knows that some viewers found their
relationship unhealthy/twisted/abusive.
How is that bigoted?
> > In any case, along with the magic and sweetness,
> > there are a few quietly offputting things here, mostly through
> > comparison with the rest of the episode. I mean, obviously the spell
> > is played like a sex scene, but more to the point, notice *which* sex
> > scene it's juxtaposed with.
>
> You missed the bit about them going to the 'nether-realm' :-)
>
> > I wasn't as happy with some of the early dialogue during the
> > Buffy/Giles scene. Not the best time to use Rupert as comic relief,
> > and Buffy should've gone with the facts-as-proof strategy right away.
> > Things shape up, since we do feel that it's Buffy, trying to reach
> > out. There's the logical mention of the events of "A New Man,"
> > and then how 'bout her relating Joyce's thoughts ("do you want me
> > to continue?" "Actually, I beg you to stop")? Now *that's*
> > funny. I don't know what a whatever-dor is either.
>
> Don't they teach you people anything? Given its origin, I would expect it
> to be an American word - like 'longshoreman', which is pretty well
> exclusively American.
STEVEDORE:
Etymology: Spanish estibador, from estibar to pack, from Latin stipare
to press together: one who works at or is responsible for loading and
unloading ships in port
John Briggs
> In article <iOl9g.28661$mX1....@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net>,
> "John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>>> one area on which I'm not really totally
>>> unspoiled concerns the two witches, although all I really know is
>>> that they eventually get together in a way that some viewers find
>>> unhealthy/twisted/abusive. So I may not be as perceptive as I seem
>>> with any "insights."
>>
>> If you're saying what I think you're saying - well, I never figured
>> you for a bigot.
>
> What he's saying is that he knows that some viewers found their
> relationship unhealthy/twisted/abusive.
>
> How is that bigoted?
If he is just saying that other people are bigots, how is that relevant?
>> Don't they teach you people anything? Given its origin, I would
>> expect it to be an American word - like 'longshoreman', which is
>> pretty well exclusively American.
>
> STEVEDORE:
> Etymology: Spanish estibador, from estibar to pack, from Latin stipare
> to press together: one who works at or is responsible for loading and
> unloading ships in port
You know, I rather think that more people speak Spanish in America than in
England :-)
--
John Briggs
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
anyway
so now you see the tired old hackneyed body switch standard fantasy plot 42
was done so that faith could see what her life couldve been
and that she shouldnt go around killing people
because its wrong
> usual role). SMG gets more screen time, and she's good. I thought
> some of the early act-two scenes were a little *too* much Buffy
she does mess up -about-
> of "Faith" stabbing a vamp from behind to save "Buffy," and
> then Faith immediately going after Buffy with intent to maim. And in
actually faith is going after faith
its just her self loathing and inner conflict are spread out
in two different bodies
so everybody else can also see it in action
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
KenM47
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
I guess I missed that AOQ missed that! Of course it's Faith trying to
kill Faith so that Faith can go on with the life she thinks is the
better life - Buffy's.
Ken (Brooklyn)
marika
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Four, Episode 16: "Who Are You?"
Never watched this episode. Never will.
> (or "To cut her throat i' the church")
But I did see "the robe" in commercials.
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
>
> According to Mrs. Q., the post-intro credits list "Eliza Dushku as
> Buffy."
Yeah, exactly.... what's with THAT?
mk5000
"I make em shit about a pile, of bricks to show
He ain't nuttin but another, a lone John Doe
That wanna flow, here it is, comin up shit's creek
I come to throw monkey wrenches in your program, sleep"--tical , method
man
magista.m...@gmail.com
"John Briggs" <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > one area on which I'm not really totally
> > unspoiled concerns the two witches, although all I really know is
> > that they eventually get together in a way that some viewers find
> > unhealthy/twisted/abusive. So I may not be as perceptive as I seem
> > with any "insights."
> If you're saying what I think you're saying - well, I never figured you for
> a bigot.
Think you guys are missing the call on this one. My take is that AoQ is
referring to xabjvat gung Jvyybj vf tbvat gb or zrffvat jvgu Gnen'f
zrzbevrf naq nyy nf gur haurnygul/gjvfgrq/nohfvir nfcrpg bs gurve
eryngvbafuvc, naq abg gur snpg gung gurl'er *tnfc* yrfovnaf.
BTR1701
"John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> BTR1701 wrote:
> > In article <iOl9g.28661$mX1....@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net>,
> > "John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> >
> >>> one area on which I'm not really totally
> >>> unspoiled concerns the two witches, although all I really know is
> >>> that they eventually get together in a way that some viewers find
> >>> unhealthy/twisted/abusive. So I may not be as perceptive as I seem
> >>> with any "insights."
> >>
> >> If you're saying what I think you're saying - well, I never figured
> >> you for a bigot.
> >
> > What he's saying is that he knows that some viewers found their
> > relationship unhealthy/twisted/abusive.
> >
> > How is that bigoted?
>
> If he is just saying that other people are bigots, how is that relevant?
Relevant to what? The Willow/Tara relationship is clearly relevant to
the Buffy show, as are other viewers' reaction to it. He merely said
that some viewers found their relationship unhealthy/twisted/abusive.
That's a statement of fact. How does that make him a bigot?
EGK
Re: your Rot13 spoiler agove. I agree. I'm more mystified by the "some
viewers". I don't know how anyone could not find that twisted and
unhealthy for anyone.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"There would be a lot more civility in this world if people
didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you"
(Calvin and Hobbes)
KenM47
>In article <Tpm9g.28717$mX1....@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net>,
> "John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>> BTR1701 wrote:
>> > In article <iOl9g.28661$mX1....@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net>,
>> > "John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> >
>> >>> one area on which I'm not really totally
>> >>> unspoiled concerns the two witches, although all I really know is
>> >>> that they eventually get together in a way that some viewers find
>> >>> unhealthy/twisted/abusive. So I may not be as perceptive as I seem
>> >>> with any "insights."
>> >>
>> >> If you're saying what I think you're saying - well, I never figured
>> >> you for a bigot.
>> >
>> > What he's saying is that he knows that some viewers found their
>> > relationship unhealthy/twisted/abusive.
>> >
>> > How is that bigoted?
>>
>> If he is just saying that other people are bigots, how is that relevant?
>
>Relevant to what? The Willow/Tara relationship is clearly relevant to
>the Buffy show, as are other viewers' reaction to it. He merely said
>that some viewers found their relationship unhealthy/twisted/abusive.
>That's a statement of fact. How does that make him a bigot?
>
IAWTP
Ken (Brooklyn)
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
KenM47 <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
if its a better life why is she running away from it?
also note that faith has an abandonment issues
and accurately notes buffy abandoned mom
however the relation between buffy and joyce is strong enough to waeather this
a relation faith cannot deal with
so the next day shes getting on a plane out of there
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> viewers". I don't know how anyone could not find that twisted and
> unhealthy for anyone.
The best things in life are filthy dirty
Hunks of gold, gold, gold,
The best things in life are dirty
The worst thing in life is...
Being content, without a cent
The best things is life are filthy dirty
Hunks of gold, gold, gold, gold
Stinkin', rotten, chunks of
Grimy, slimy, lousy, lovely
KenM47
At the point she's beating on herself, she had had the big "AHA"
moment and returned to Sunnydale to do the right thing, the Buffy
thing. Then she's confronted with "herself," Baith.
Ken (Brooklyn)
peachy ashie passion
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>>According to Mrs. Q., the post-intro credits list "Eliza Dushku as
>>Buffy."
>
>
> So does the script, for that matter.
>
>
>>Willow and Tara's spell is shot in a very "magical" way, with the
>>lush music and the slow spread of the circle of fire. It's like
>>it's trying to induce a sense of wonder, like a Narnia or Potter
>>movie. That's an interesting contrast to the way magic is usually
>>portrayed on this series, and gorgeous to watch, especially with the
>>dialogue pushed to the background of the audio mix. Now, going to
>>ROT-13 for a second, bar nern ba juvpu V'z abg ernyyl gbgnyyl
>>hafcbvyrq pbapreaf gur gjb jvgpurf, nygubhtu nyy V ernyyl xabj vf
>>gung gurl riraghnyyl trg gbtrgure va n jnl gung fbzr ivrjref svaq
>>haurnygul/gjvfgrq/nohfvir. Fb V znl abg or nf creprcgvir nf V frrz
>>jvgu nal "vafvtugf."
>
>
> If you're saying what I think you're saying - well, I never figured you for
> a bigot.
You know, I don't think he IS saying that.
I think he got spoiled wrong.
BTR1701
"marika" <marik...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > threads.
> >
> >
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Four, Episode 16: "Who Are You?"
>
> Never watched this episode. Never will.
>
> > (or "To cut her throat i' the church")
>
> But I did see "the robe" in commercials.
>
> > Writer: Joss Whedon
> > Director: Joss Whedon
> >
> > According to Mrs. Q., the post-intro credits list "Eliza Dushku as
> > Buffy."
>
> Yeah, exactly.... what's with THAT?
Watch the episode and find out.
One Bit Shy
news:1147531807....@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
> I'm going to quote a big chunk of a different review of this episode
> (by Spring Summers - I'd link you but sadly there are major spoilers in
> other parts) that points out a lot of good stuff:
>
> Like the Watcher goons, Faith has chosen to harden herself to avoid
<snip>
> But growing and maturing and becoming the best person you can be
> isn't as simple as excising your dark side. That's a fool's
> errand anyhow, because exorcism is not an option. The road to a happy
> and successful adulthood requires one to love, accept, integrate and
> harness the power that dark side. Faith cannot leave any part of
> herself behind, any more than Buffy can, anymore than any of us can.
> There is no easy, painless way to the light. Leading a successful life
> isn't about being in control of every situation. It's about taking
> responsibility rather than control.
Excellent analysis. Thanks for sharing.
OBS
Arbitrar Of Quality
> > If you're saying what I think you're saying - well, I never figured you for
> > a bigot.
>
> You know, I don't think he IS saying that.
>
> I think he got spoiled wrong.
Wrong spoilage is cool.
But yes, pretty much everyone has correctly divined that my comment
referred to things I'd heard about the particular way in which
particular characters will behave in the future. Bigotry doesn't have
anything to do with the discussion.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> I guess I missed that AOQ missed that! Of course it's Faith trying to
> kill Faith so that Faith can go on with the life she thinks is the
> better life - Buffy's.
I don't see that I "missed" that. I mentioned the increasing
commitment to becoming Buffy and the "self" loathing, and said that
those things started to finally make Faith's mental state clear to me,
right? (Although I didn't understand why Riley would be the trigger;
still mulling over the Spring Summers analysis.)
That being said, I didn't see things being quite as premeditated as you
do; I tend to feel like Faith doesn't always know what she's going to
do from minute to minute. She was content to put Buffy out of mind
after the WC's goons took her away, and ready to become her, but then
when she sees herself again, I don't think she's thinking at all. It
feels like she's lashing out, a pure emotional reaction, more because
she wants to destroy than because it suits her plan.
-AOQ
KenM47
What plan? I don't see a plan. Her plan was to leave, particularly
after Riley's declaration of love. As far as we know, Faith has never
been in love. Sex? Oh yeah. Love? Nope. Scares the bejeesus out of
her. And say what you will about boring Riley, he's portrayed as
having a very pure poetic love for Buffy, a true love like Angel's but
in a human package.
The moment of change is when Fuffy is in the airport. Then the
calling, the fighting evil, the Buffyness comes to be. And after doing
the right thing, protecting the innocent, being ready to accept that
new skin and that life, BOOM! in walks her past, the reject, the one
who does not have what the other one has - family, real friends, and
love as well as the deserved righteousness of doing the right thing.
No disrespect meant re the "missing" comment. Skimming through, not
always saying the "right" things.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Horace LaBadie
"John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> BTR1701 wrote:
> > In article <iOl9g.28661$mX1....@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net>,
> > "John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> >
> >>> one area on which I'm not really totally
> >>> unspoiled concerns the two witches, although all I really know is
> >>> that they eventually get together in a way that some viewers find
> >>> unhealthy/twisted/abusive. So I may not be as perceptive as I seem
> >>> with any "insights."
> >>
> >> If you're saying what I think you're saying - well, I never figured
> >> you for a bigot.
> >
> > What he's saying is that he knows that some viewers found their
> > relationship unhealthy/twisted/abusive.
> >
> > How is that bigoted?
>
> If he is just saying that other people are bigots, how is that relevant?
>
He's not saying anybody is bigoted. He's saying that he has become aware
of a Future Development (X), and that the manner in which he became
aware is through the Controversy involving an aspect of X. He then asks
that people not assume that he has more knowledge of X than is implied
by that statement, and, in effect, asks them to refrain from further
spoilage.
HWL
cry...@panix.com
> "John Briggs" <john.brig...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>>> one area on which I'm not really totally unspoiled concerns
>>> the two witches, although all I really know is that they
>>> eventually get together in a way that some viewers find
>>> unhealthy/twisted/abusive. So I may not be as perceptive as I
>>> seem with any "insights."
>>
>> If you're saying what I think you're saying - well, I never
>> figured you for a bigot.
>
> Think you guys are missing the call on this one. My take is that AoQ is
> referring to xabjvat gung Jvyybj vf tbvat gb or zrffvat jvgu Gnen'f
> zrzbevrf naq nyy nf gur haurnygul/gjvfgrq/nohfvir nfcrpg bs gurve
> eryngvbafuvc, naq abg gur snpg gung gurl'er *tnfc* yrfovnaf.
Ernyyl? V svtherq ur whfg znantrq gb zvk hc fcbvyref bs gur
Jvyybj-Gnen eryngvbafuvc jvgu fcbvyref bs gur Ohssl-Fcvxr
eryngvbafuvc.
--
-Crystal
Don Sample
BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> In article <Tpm9g.28717$mX1....@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net>,
> "John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> > BTR1701 wrote:
> > > In article <iOl9g.28661$mX1....@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net>,
> > > "John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > >
> > >>> one area on which I'm not really totally
> > >>> unspoiled concerns the two witches, although all I really know is
> > >>> that they eventually get together in a way that some viewers find
> > >>> unhealthy/twisted/abusive. So I may not be as perceptive as I seem
> > >>> with any "insights."
> > >>
> > >> If you're saying what I think you're saying - well, I never figured
> > >> you for a bigot.
> > >
> > > What he's saying is that he knows that some viewers found their
> > > relationship unhealthy/twisted/abusive.
> > >
> > > How is that bigoted?
> >
> > If he is just saying that other people are bigots, how is that relevant?
>
> Relevant to what? The Willow/Tara relationship is clearly relevant to
> the Buffy show, as are other viewers' reaction to it. He merely said
> that some viewers found their relationship unhealthy/twisted/abusive.
> That's a statement of fact. How does that make him a bigot?
Naq va frnfba 6, gur Jvyybj/Gnen eryngvbafuvc qbrf orpbzr
haurnygul/gjvfgrq/nohfvir sbe n ovg, jvgu Jvyybj znavchyngvat Gnen'f
zrzbevrf va beqre gb unir gur fbeg bs eryngvbafuvc gung fur jnagf.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
One Bit Shy
news:1147527748....@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> The first question one is inclined to ask with an episode like this is
> how the actors will do when suddenly forced to play a different
> character (and in Gellar's case, a character trying to pose as her
> usual role). SMG gets more screen time, and she's good. I thought
> some of the early act-two scenes were a little *too* much Buffy
> (obviously her imitation had to be good enough to not arouse alarm with
> the Scoobies, but I thought it was a little excessive), but most of the
> time it's not hard to imagine another character underneath (more on
> that in a second). Dushku isn't in this one so much, I don't know
> if Joss thought Gellar was the stronger actor or just that Buffy's
> role in the episode wasn't as interesting. In any case, she's also
> solid, and I could see the Buffy there during her scene with Giles.
> Nice to know that any Slayer in that body is going to be good with her
> feet...
SMG's imitation of Faith is often excellent. Some really nice physical
moments - like the face she makes when Joyce hugs her and how she swings her
legs around to sit down, where she just slovenly lounges with her legs
spread apart. And did you notice her fighting style when she attacked Buffy
in Faith's body? That straight ahead punching style so like Faith. Some
nice work by SMG there.
The emotional side of the portrayal is a bit more complicated. As you
noted, it's not just Faith in Buffy's body. It's also Faith in Buffy's body
pretending to be Buffy. Except sometimes mocking Buffy. Then an extra
level of complexity comes with her beginning to feel like she's actually
Buffy - something that comes in fits and starts. So sometimes she's
spoofing Buffy. At least once she's just Faith.(moments at the Bronze)
Sometimes she's pretending to be Buffy - poorly. Sometimes she thinks she
is Buffy. All jumbled with awkward transitions between modes. So much so
that it might obscure a poor depiction, except that SMG, in her usual
compulsive attention to detail, pretty much nails all the varying emotional
states. Might be her best performance of the season.
Dushku's performance doesn't hit me nearly as strongly, but her role is
considerably smaller and more narrowly defined. She does what she needs to
here. This Year's Girl is more her showcase.
In the end, the real testament to both is how easily and thoroughly I
accepted the notion of them being in each other's bodies. At no point did
the performance aspect get in the way of the story for me.
> So now that she literally has Buffy's identity, what to do with it?
> If nothing else, WAY reminds me that the body-switch isn't just a
> cheap plot device, it's a logical place to take Faith given her
> identity search last year. Particular praise for writing and acting
> should go to Faith's very earliest scenes, in which the viewer truly
> believes that it's Faith there doing a bad Buffy impression. The
> first "because it's wrong!" sequence is a good example of humor
> with a point. ("Because it's wrong" is probably my favorite
> line-that-recurs-through-an-episode-with-different-meanings deal of the
> series so far.) Also, nice recovery with the lipstick; much as I was
> hoping Joyce would do more, one can see why she wouldn't expect the
> unexpectable.
There is that one momentary shock near the start when Joyce turns to "Buffy"
and says, "Faith," that makes me (and Faith) think that Joyce has figured it
out. But of course not.
Another moment I like a lot just a little earlier is when Buffy in Faith's
body looks up from the stretcher and Faith in Buffy's body takes Joyce's
hand as one last dig at Buffy. Ouch.
The bathroom scene is funny in its own right, but you're right that the use
of it through the episode as a kind of marker of Faith's developing
perception is quite effective. I've heard that the guy who wrote this
episode is pretty clever.
> Faith's fantasy of stabbing Willow is nice-n-shocking, both in its
> suddenness and in the sudden reveal. It's the only time this episode
> uses that device; a lesser show would've overdone it.
That device is nice, but it's the follow-up that really matters. While
Faith gets pensive about that for a moment, Willow sees it and asks what is
wrong, leading Faith to throw out the line about never letting Faith do that
to her. Willow's genuine appreciation of the sentiment - and ready
acceptance that it is, of course, true - is one of the early incidents of
Faith getting hit with the truth of what's different about being Buffy. It
doesn't hit with full power yet, but it gets piled on her until the night
with Riley overwhelms her.
> It makes sense from a plot standpoint that the Watchers' Council or
> their representatives would get involved, but I don't care much about
> them. Now, didn't part one end with Giles being ominously confronted
> by British guys? Now are we supposed to think that they were just
> dropping by to give him a heads-up? I'm a little confused.
After the nurse called in the Council team they probably dropped by Giles to
see if he had a line on where Faith was. This was before the police had
Faith, so it would seem likely to them that Giles and Buffy would already be
hunting for her.
> Maybe I'll pretend to care about Adam again next week, but not during
> a Faith episode, okay? The vampires after they've become fearless
> are good enough baddies in a disposable way.
I kind of like the Adam scene. ("I've been thinking about... vampires."
Always pondering the Buffyverse. He'd probably be a good newsgroup
contributor.) The episode needs to set up some kind of late peril for Faith
and Buffy to respond to. Might as well use the opportunity to further
develop Adam. Not a lot of time left in the season.
> In the Bronze, the writers take another chance to let magic put a
> different spin on the Gellar/Marsters chemistry. Spike telling Faith
> what they both "should" already know is a little too contrivance-y,
> but the rest of the scene is entertaining; someone certainly seems to
> like having that kind of sexual power over someone, and Spike's final
> threat has teeth even if he doesn't.
Spike: You know why I really hate you, Summers?
Buffy: 'Cause I'm a stuck-up tight-ass with no sense of fun?
Spike: Well, yeah, that covers a lot of it.
That totally cracks me up. Funniest moment in the episode for me. But the
speech that follows is amazing - as well as the close-up of SMG with the
ruby lips. (I don't know if you ever saw SMG's movie Cruel Intentions, but
I can't help think that if it had been able to more consistently get across
the mood projected in this scene, that movie would have improved a couple
big notches.) In the last episode we were reminded that Spike is genuinely
bad - and enjoys it. But there's no joy here. He's pissed now.
In retrospect, it's also interesting how naturally Faith's manner might
progress from Buffy's manner with Spike in the bathtub a few episodes back
when she teased him by baring her neck. To Spike, this really wouldn't seem
like Buffy's acting weird.
> Faith is more casually bitchy
> with Tara (sidenotes: I loved "So we've never met?;" "driving
> stick" is a new one to me), but what I wasn't expecting was for the
> latter to so easily figure out the truth. It'd be more obvious to
> just have her be pouty, and we like to avoid the obvious here.
I think this is a pretty big moment for Tara. We've had hints that Tara
might be stronger magically than shown yet, and definitely that her magical
discipline is extremely different than Willow's - not the dark magics from
Giles books. But it's been very vague until now.
Now she demonstrates an amazing - and valuable - ability and follows up by
taking Willow to a no less amazing place in a fashion unlike what we - and
especially Willow - have experienced before. (Which you note below.)
Tara's starting to come into her own as somebody that matters for more than
her devotion to Willow.
> Willow and Tara's spell is shot in a very "magical" way, with the
> lush music and the slow spread of the circle of fire. It's like
> it's trying to induce a sense of wonder, like a Narnia or Potter
> movie. That's an interesting contrast to the way magic is usually
> portrayed on this series, and gorgeous to watch, especially with the
> dialogue pushed to the background of the audio mix.
I love the fire circle. I think it's one of the most beautiful visual
moments in the series.
> Now, going to
> ROT-13 for a second, bar nern ba juvpu V'z abg ernyyl gbgnyyl hafcbvyrq
> pbapreaf gur gjb jvgpurf, nygubhtu nyy V ernyyl xabj vf gung gurl
> riraghnyyl trg gbtrgure va n jnl gung fbzr ivrjref svaq
> haurnygul/gjvfgrq/nohfvir. Fb V znl abg or nf creprcgvir nf V frrz
> jvgu nal "vafvtugf."
I'm sorry, but I can take that multiple ways with radically different
responses. You'll need to be more explicit.
> In any case, along with the magic and sweetness,
> there are a few quietly offputting things here, mostly through
> comparison with the rest of the episode. I mean, obviously the spell
> is played like a sex scene, but more to the point, notice *which* sex
> scene it's juxtaposed with. Also Willow's comment about wanting
> something that's "hers" makes sense in a geeky Willowy way, but
> Tara's worshipful "I am, you know" is less innocent... and note
> that of all the episodes in which this conversation could've taken
> place, the writers chose this one. Hmm. Just some idle speculation.
I'm not grasping what you're getting at about which sex scene and this of
all episodes.
But, yes, it's played like a sex scene - sweaty sex even. Nothing subtle
about it, but no less visually beautiful.
I'm also not sure how you think of Willow's comment about wanting something
that's hers as geeky sense. I think it's very possessive of Willow and
paints a less flattering picture of why she's hiding Tara from her friends
than the prior assumption that it's just an embarrassment thing. It's also
consistent with some prior behavior by Willow showing possessiveness towards
Buffy and Xander that may have gone too far. (Notably her upset about
Xander and Faith having sex, which likely remains a big reason for her
personal antipathy towards Faith.) On the other hand, Tara's "I am, you
know," just seems to me like besotted Tara blurting it out.
>>From there we should talk about Faith seducing Riley, except that most
> of that pretty much speaks for itself. I couldn't shake the feeling
> that I should've found it more disturbing or engaging than it
> actually was. I think I'll irrationally blame Riley, just because.
> With Faith's recoiling both before and after, it's, as always, hard
> to figure out exactly what's going on with her. Things start to
> clarify a little during her interesting brief scene with Forrest. And
> then there's [continued in a later paragraph]
I don't think I could expand on elisi22's post on this subject. Suffice to
say that it's a huge moment for Faith grasping what really makes Buffy
different from her - and the start of her switching to try to genuinely take
on being Buffy.
That being said, the play of the scene with Riley - especially near the end
when she pushes him away and speaks sort of nonsense - confused me for a
long time. At one point I thought Tara's spell had put Willow into Buffy at
an -erm- inopportune time. (Well, some people have suggested that Riley and
Willow should have gotten together. heh.) It plays better to me now that
I've put it together better and understand, for example, that Faith,
confused, stops pretending to be Buffy for a few lines as she tries to make
sense of the Riley experience.
But I can attest that at least some viewers have trouble making sense of the
scene initially.
The Forrest moment is kind of brutal to Faith as he inadvertantly strikes
her vulnerability as a real killer. I think it's also interesting having
her actually express the notion that she's not a killer, but a slayer. The
same distinction - important, yet sounding kind of wrong - is something that
Buffy worried about in the past herself. To my mind this adds to the sense
of Faith in many ways being Buffy's mirror. I don't think this episode
really resolves the question of how diferent or alike the two are at heart.
> I wasn't as happy with some of the early dialogue during the
> Buffy/Giles scene. Not the best time to use Rupert as comic relief,
> and Buffy should've gone with the facts-as-proof strategy right away.
> Things shape up, since we do feel that it's Buffy, trying to reach
> out. There's the logical mention of the events of "A New Man,"
> and then how 'bout her relating Joyce's thoughts ("do you want me
> to continue?" "Actually, I beg you to stop")? Now *that's*
> funny. I don't know what a whatever-dor is either.
Stevedore. Dock worker. Think big, strong, sweaty, lots of endurance.
> Xander (and Anya) make a fairly limited ultimate contribution to this
> one, huh? I kinda don't know why Xander's even in the show
> anymore, given that the series hasn't had much interest in doing
> anything with him all year, and he's portrayed so wildly
> inconsistently by the different writers anyway. Maybe he should've
> become invisible to the audience instead of the other characters in
> "Fear Itself."
His job is to keep Giles company. Haven't you noticed?
It's also to teach Anya the ways of the world.
Don't worry. Xander will always belong - even when he doesn't.
> [continued from earlier paragraph] her constant repetition of "I'm
> Buffy" towards the end, and it culminates in her massive release of
> "self"-loathing during the final fight scene. The images in this
> part are good, between once again using the BG/"Consequences" view
> of "Faith" stabbing a vamp from behind to save "Buffy," and
> then Faith immediately going after Buffy with intent to maim. And in
> the end, she runs away without a word...
As noted by others, Buffy isn't really there to her. She simply sees
herself and wants that dead. She can't be in good shape now back in herself
and running away.
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> - Xander claiming his "hey."
> - "I guess that's just regular justice"
> - Willow bringing up hyena posessions
>
> We don't get much of a handle yet on how Slayer and Soldier-Boy will
> relate to each other now. At least she tells him the story, and
> there's no irrational blame as far as I can see.
Watch and see.
> The rather abrupt
> non-resolution to Faith' story is strange.
I think this story was completed satisfactorily. What Faith does with it is
in her hands now.
> I just assume that means
> we'll see her again. I'm trying not to get too excited over what
> could be nothing, but I do know that there's an _Angel_ episode
> coming a few weeks from now called "Five By Five."
The Oracles will reveal the true meaning of five by five and rock
everybody's world. Faith, of course, will dance to that rock.
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Hey, it's a Buffy/Faith show, of course it'll
> be good.
A resounding Excellent for me. #3 for the season and possibly top ten for
the series. One of the best character pieces in the series in my
estimation.
OBS
Kevin
One Bit Shy wrote:
> Stevedore. Dock worker. Think big, strong, sweaty, lots of endurance.
Ha! I did not know until today, reading these replies, what stevedore
actually means; for some reason, I thought it was a kind of horse. Or
possibly a style of hat. But a horse fits in with the implied meaning
in the scene, like "stallion", so I never realized...
Anyway, great episode -- I think the actresses' performances, playing
one another, were even more excellent than has been mentioned. Great
way to bring back Harry Groener for a cameo in TYG; man, can he command
a scene. He lit up every scene he played in S3. He and Dushku could
have reenergized the show in TYG/WAY even with weaker scripts.
--Kevin
(Harmony) Watcher
Well said, and well quoted. Thanks
==(Harmony) Watcher==
drifter
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>>
>> Buffy."
>
>
>> lush music and the slow spread of the circle of fire. It's like
>> it's trying to induce a sense of wonder, like a Narnia or Potter
>> movie. That's an interesting contrast to the way magic is usually
>> portrayed on this series, and gorgeous to watch, especially with the
>> ROT-13 for a second, bar nern ba juvpu V'z abg ernyyl gbgnyyl
>> hafcbvyrq pbapreaf gur gjb jvgpurf, nygubhtu nyy V ernyyl xabj vf
>> gung gurl riraghnyyl trg gbtrgure va n jnl gung fbzr ivrjref svaq
>> haurnygul/gjvfgrq/nohfvir. Fb V znl abg or nf creprcgvir nf V frrz
>> jvgu nal "vafvtugf."
>
> you for a bigot.
He's not saying what you think he's saying, and why would you
even think that?
--
Kel
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own."
vague disclaimer
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> peachy ashie passion wrote:
>
> > > If you're saying what I think you're saying - well, I never figured you
> > > for
> > > a bigot.
> >
> > You know, I don't think he IS saying that.
> >
> > I think he got spoiled wrong.
>
> Wrong spoilage is cool.
>
> But yes, pretty much everyone has correctly divined that my comment
> referred to things I'd heard about the particular way in which
> particular characters will behave in the future.
Damn. So you heard about them sacrificing puppies, eh?
--
A vague disclaimer is nobody's friend
peachy ashie passion
Mel
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Four, Episode 16: "Who Are You?"
> (or "To cut her throat i' the church")
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
>
<<<snip>>>>
>
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Hey, it's a Buffy/Faith show, of course it'll
> be good.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
>
> [Season Four so far:
> 1) "The Freshman" - Good
> 2) "Living Conditions" - Decent
> 3) "The Harsh Light Of Day" - Good
> 4) "Fear Itself" - Decent
> 5) "Beer Bad" - Weak
> 6) "Wild At Heart" - Excellent
> 7) "The Initiative" - Decent
> 8) "Pangs" - Good
> 9) "Something Blue" - Good
> 10) "Hush" - Good
> 11) "Doomed" - Weak
> 12) "A New Man" - Decent
> 13) "The I In Team" - Good
> 14) "Goodbye Iowa" - Good
> 15) "This Year's Girl" - Good
> 16) "Who Are You?" - Good]
>
The first time I saw this episode I hated it. I was sure it lasted at
least 4 hours and I just wanted it to finally be over.
I couldn't believe that no one who knew Buffy, and had known her for
years, wouldn't realize that Fuffy wasn't Buffy. Riley, the guy who
supposedly loves her, doesn't figure it out . I give him a partial pass
because magic is basically unknown to him. But Joyce? Giles? Willow?
Xander? Anya? No one suspected a thing. And the person who notices, who
senses something *immediately* as not right, is the one person of the
bunch who has never even met Buffy.
Actually, now that I think about it, I still pretty much feel the same
way. I recognize that the 2-parter is some good television, but couple
the above with the fact that I never liked the character of Faith and
would have been just as happy if Buffy had killed her, I still can't say
I like this one.
I do think SMG does a terrific job playing Faith learning to be Buffy,
and the scene with Spike is most amusing, but I can't get over the
stupidity of every single character in order to make the whole thing
possible.
Bringing Faith back just feels like a interjection into the story of
Season 4, the "gosh, our story line is bogging down so let's inject some
life by resurrecting Season 3" instead of making the current one better.
It also brings up the Council's stupidity yet again. During the
discussion of their role in Season 3, I mentioned the scene in TYG where
no one is watching Faith to know when she wakes up. Several people
brought up the nurse who made the phone call to alert the Council, using
that scene as evidence they didn't drop the ball. However, upon
re-watching I would like to point out that they were *not* watching her
24/7. The nurse didn't know anything till she came on shift, which was
who knows how long after Faith escaped. Knowing how dangerous she was,
there is no excuse for the Council to not have someone watching her
every minute of every day, even if she never woke up. The police
detective felt the same way, I might add.
I know lots of folks love these episodes and some consider them the best
of Buffy ever. Oh well, to each their own.
Mel
Mel
KenM47 wrote:
Her plan was to leave town even before the encounter with Riley. She was
on the phone using Joyce's credit card buying a ticket to somewhere as
soon as she was out of the bathtub. She didn't even think about messing
with Riley till Willow asked if she was going over there.
Mel
DysgraphicProgrammer
One Bit Shy wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1147527748....@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
I had to read that several times; my brain kept insisting as parsing
that as:
" So sometimes she's spooning Buffy."
Which image definitely caught my attention
kenm47
Ok. Assuming true, the initial plan was to get out of Dodge, just get
away. Once we gort to Riley, a lot more was involved in that, now with
the running from the conflicting emotions as well.
Ken (Brooklyn)
BTR1701
wrote:
> Actually, now that I think about it, I still pretty much feel the same
> way. I recognize that the 2-parter is some good television, but couple
> the above with the fact that I never liked the character of Faith and
> would have been just as happy if Buffy had killed her
Heresy!
I'm just sayin'....
BTR1701
wrote:
There seems to be a discrete segment of the population these days that's
just itching to find an "-ism" anywhere they possibly can.
(Harmony) Watcher
"KenM47" <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:15bc62lq0lvgcukuo...@4ax.com...
> <snip>
>
> Then she's confronted with "herself," Baith.
>
==(Harmony) Watcher==
Don Sample
"\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
> "KenM47" <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:15bc62lq0lvgcukuo...@4ax.com...
> > <snip>
> >
> > Then she's confronted with "herself," Baith.
> >
> LOL. I like "Fuffy" better.
You can't have one without the other. Fuffy went into the church to
save the people, and wound up with a vamp about to bite her. Baith
shows up and stakes the vamp. Then Fuffy goes postal and starts wailing
on Baith, until Baith catches her hand, holding Willow and Tara's home
conjured Katra between their palms, to turn them back into Buffy and
Faith.
(Harmony) Watcher
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1147552617.7...@d71g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
Pt1: http://bdb.vrya.net/bdb/clip.php?clip=1325) might be endearing to her
and it was an understatement, but it was right on target in that she could
explode at any given moment. She enjoyed being reckless as we saw in S3 "Bad
Girls" (http://bdb.vrya.net/bdb/clip.php?clip=1534).
==(Harmony) Watcher==
Apteryx
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> be good.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
I'm late, and all the good points are taken. I agree with elisis22 as to
what is going on in the serious level of this episode, but I'd emphasis the
point that is made there that Riley doesn't do all the work himself (even
if he does strike the decisive blow). Joyce, and Buffy's friends, and the
girl Fuffy saves contribute to show Fuffy what she has missed as Faith.
The irony is that while Faith thus learns what is possible and what made
Buffy Buffy, Buffy herself missed all that and may not be aware of it.
I'd agree with Good, but possibly that is because of the high level at which
I set the Excellent tag. This is my 25th favourite BtVS episode, 5th best in
Season 4
--
Apteryx
Arbitrar Of Quality
> "KenM47" <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:15bc62lq0lvgcukuo...@4ax.com...
> > Then she's confronted with "herself," Baith.
> >
> LOL. I like "Fuffy" better.
I will not be caqught dead combining characters' names like that in any
context.
-AOQ
~just saying~
Arbitrar Of Quality
> There is that one momentary shock near the start when Joyce turns to "Buffy"
> and says, "Faith," that makes me (and Faith) think that Joyce has figured it
> out. But of course not.
Yeah, I'd assume tht one gets everyone.
> That totally cracks me up. Funniest moment in the episode for me. But the
> speech that follows is amazing - as well as the close-up of SMG with the
> ruby lips. (I don't know if you ever saw SMG's movie Cruel Intentions, but
> I can't help think that if it had been able to more consistently get across
> the mood projected in this scene, that movie would have improved a couple
> big notches.)
I always liked CI. It's a movie that knows exactly what it's going
for.
> In retrospect, it's also interesting how naturally Faith's manner might
> progress from Buffy's manner with Spike in the bathtub a few episodes back
> when she teased him by baring her neck. To Spike, this really wouldn't seem
> like Buffy's acting weird.
Good thought.
> I think this is a pretty big moment for Tara. We've had hints that Tara
> might be stronger magically than shown yet, and definitely that her magical
> discipline is extremely different than Willow's - not the dark magics from
> Giles books. But it's been very vague until now.
Interesting to contrast the kind fo stuff she's capable of with her
caution, and the show of modesty in "Hush" and others.
> > Now, going to
> > ROT-13 for a second, bar nern ba juvpu V'z abg ernyyl gbgnyyl hafcbvyrq
> > pbapreaf gur gjb jvgpurf, nygubhtu nyy V ernyyl xabj vf gung gurl
> > riraghnyyl trg gbtrgure va n jnl gung fbzr ivrjref svaq
> > haurnygul/gjvfgrq/nohfvir. Fb V znl abg or nf creprcgvir nf V frrz
> > jvgu nal "vafvtugf."
>
> I'm sorry, but I can take that multiple ways with radically different
> responses. You'll need to be more explicit.
Which I can't, because I fortunately don't know anything else about it.
To be discussed later, I suppose.
> I'm not grasping what you're getting at about which sex scene and this of
> all episodes.
Just a juxtaposition thing. BTVS sometimes makes its points and
foreshadowing through putting together stories that parallel each
other. Taken in isolation, Willow wanting Tara to be "hers" is
something that could have been made explicit at any point in the last
few episodes without altering much of anything. I'm just speculating
that it may not be an accident that Joss chose to put that conversation
in a Faith episode.
> That being said, the play of the scene with Riley - especially near the end
> when she pushes him away and speaks sort of nonsense - confused me for a
> long time. At one point I thought Tara's spell had put Willow into Buffy at
> an -erm- inopportune time. (Well, some people have suggested that Riley and
> Willow should have gotten together. heh.) It plays better to me now that
> I've put it together better and understand, for example, that Faith,
> confused, stops pretending to be Buffy for a few lines as she tries to make
> sense of the Riley experience.
>
> But I can attest that at least some viewers have trouble making sense of the
> scene initially.
Can't say I ever thought Willow was involved, but count me in on the
confusion.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> The first time I saw this episode I hated it. I was sure it lasted at
> least 4 hours and I just wanted it to finally be over.
>
> I couldn't believe that no one who knew Buffy, and had known her for
> years, wouldn't realize that Fuffy wasn't Buffy. Riley, the guy who
> supposedly loves her, doesn't figure it out . I give him a partial pass
> because magic is basically unknown to him. But Joyce? Giles? Willow?
> Xander? Anya? No one suspected a thing. And the person who notices, who
> senses something *immediately* as not right, is the one person of the
> bunch who has never even met Buffy.
Disagreed completely. We haven't seen a body-switch like this before.
Our heroes simply have no reason to expect the unexpectable, and I
think it's unrealistic to expect them to instantly pick up on it. Real
people are moody and act slightly "off" from time to time without there
being anything else to it. The whole time I was hoping that someone
would put things together, but their failure to do so made me feel
frustrated by how nasty the situation was, not frustrated at the
characters. "A New Man" did the same thing pretty well too, BTW.
> the fact that I never liked the character of Faith and
> would have been just as happy if Buffy had killed her
Well, like you say, to each their own. But do realize that your
opinion is simply wrong. [joking, more or less]
> Bringing Faith back just feels like a interjection into the story of
> Season 4, the "gosh, our story line is bogging down so let's inject some
> life by resurrecting Season 3" instead of making the current one better.
And going back to Season Three is a problem because...?
Seriously, though, there was more story to tell with Faith, and part of
that required that some time pass. Doing TYG/WAY wouldn't make sense
sooner after GD.
-AOQ
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> Mel wrote:
>
> > The first time I saw this episode I hated it. I was sure it lasted at
> > least 4 hours and I just wanted it to finally be over.
> >
> > I couldn't believe that no one who knew Buffy, and had known her for
> > years, wouldn't realize that Fuffy wasn't Buffy. Riley, the guy who
> > supposedly loves her, doesn't figure it out . I give him a partial pass
> > because magic is basically unknown to him. But Joyce? Giles? Willow?
> > Xander? Anya? No one suspected a thing. And the person who notices, who
> > senses something *immediately* as not right, is the one person of the
> > bunch who has never even met Buffy.
>
> Disagreed completely. We haven't seen a body-switch like this before.
Yes we have, back in season 1, when Amy was swapped with her mother.
> Our heroes simply have no reason to expect the unexpectable, and I
> think it's unrealistic to expect them to instantly pick up on it. Real
> people are moody and act slightly "off" from time to time without there
> being anything else to it. The whole time I was hoping that someone
> would put things together, but their failure to do so made me feel
> frustrated by how nasty the situation was, not frustrated at the
> characters. "A New Man" did the same thing pretty well too, BTW.
And I agree that Faith didn't do anything that would make anyone think
"this isn't Buffy." They've all seen Buffy act weird and scatter
brained before, for no good reason.
John Briggs
Are you sure? Read it again.
--
John Briggs
hopelessly devoted
Don Sample wrote:
> In article <dJy9g.159670$7a.18645@pd7tw1no>,
> "\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
>
> > "KenM47" <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> > news:15bc62lq0lvgcukuo...@4ax.com...
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > Then she's confronted with "herself," Baith.
> > >
> > LOL. I like "Fuffy" better.
>
> You can't have one without the other. Fuffy went into the church to
> save the people, and wound up with a vamp about to bite her. Baith
> shows up and stakes the vamp. Then Fuffy goes postal and starts wailing
> on Baith, until Baith catches her hand, holding Willow and Tara's home
> conjured Katra between their palms, to turn them back into Buffy and
> Faith.
Now say that 10 times, fast.
Michael Ikeda
news:1147528881....@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> And like I said, no more new reviews until after the weekend.
>> Take your time responding.
>>
>> -AOQ
>
> This was a good story. Faith trying to become Buffy attacks
> herself (and we know it's herself she's attacking) and tries to
> kill the girl who's done such terrible things. But whoops!
> Buffy gets her body back and Faith is once again wearing her
> real face.
>
> I'm sorry, but I live in a world where it is entirely reasonable
> that Riley would have no clue, whatsoever, that this woman who
> looks, smells, is in fact in the body of Buffy is not Buffy.
>
> Darnit, there's so much I can't mention. But the actions Faith
> took in this episode will have far-reaching repurcussions.
>
> V zrna, guvf pbairefngvba jvgu Fcvxr vf jurer ur tbg gur vqrn
> gung Ohssl unq n guvat sbe uvz. Ur qbrfa'g svther bhg hagvy
> Frnfba 7 gung vg jnfa'g ure. Snvgu-nf-Ohssl chapuvat Evyrl va
> gur fgbznpur gb fubj uvz ubj jrnx ur jnf, gung fcvenyf bhg
> yngre.
>
Ur znl unir yrnearq bs gur obql fjvgpu orsber Frnfba 7, nygubhtu ur
qvqa'g yrnea vg jnf Snvgu hagvy Qvegl Tveyf. Ng fbzr hafcrpvsvrq
cbvag, Ohssl gbyq uvz bs gur obql fjvgpu jvgubhg zragvbavat jub fur
unq fjvgpurq jvgu.
Fcvxr gnyxvat jvgu Snvgu nobhg gur obql fjnc:
Fur gbyq zr vg jrag qbja. Snvyrq gb zragvba jub jnf qevivat ure
fxva nebhaq.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
hopelessly devoted
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Four, Episode 16: "Who Are You?"
> (or "To cut her throat i' the church")
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
This would have to be my first Faith based Joss written and directed
Loved/Hated ep. On the surface it's beautifully written, directed and
acted. But underneath.........
> The first question one is inclined to ask with an episode like this is
> how the actors will do when suddenly forced to play a different
> character (and in Gellar's case, a character trying to pose as her
> usual role). SMG gets more screen time, and she's good. I thought
> some of the early act-two scenes were a little *too* much Buffy
> (obviously her imitation had to be good enough to not arouse alarm with
> the Scoobies, but I thought it was a little excessive), but most of the
> time it's not hard to imagine another character underneath (more on
> that in a second). Dushku isn't in this one so much, I don't know
> if Joss thought Gellar was the stronger actor or just that Buffy's
> role in the episode wasn't as interesting. In any case, she's also
> solid, and I could see the Buffy there during her scene with Giles.
> Nice to know that any Slayer in that body is going to be good with her
> feet...
SMG was fantastic right down to the Boston Accent. ED did OK, but a
lot of her "failure" came strictly from her distinctive voice and well,
being such a strong Faith.
> So now that she literally has Buffy's identity, what to do with it?
> If nothing else, WAY reminds me that the body-switch isn't just a
> cheap plot device, it's a logical place to take Faith given her
> identity search last year. Particular praise for writing and acting
> should go to Faith's very earliest scenes, in which the viewer truly
> believes that it's Faith there doing a bad Buffy impression. The
> first "because it's wrong!" sequence is a good example of humor
> with a point. ("Because it's wrong" is probably my favorite
> line-that-recurs-through-an-episode-with-different-meanings deal of the
> series so far.) Also, nice recovery with the lipstick; much as I was
> hoping Joyce would do more, one can see why she wouldn't expect the
> unexpectable.
On First Viewing. Now, it's a lot more telling than ever. Why does
someone practice "because it's wrong" like they're learning a foreign
language. Making sure that the accent is in the right place and that
words sound natural so that it's not obvious that you're a tourist in a
foreign land. Funny as hell on first viewing. Chilling today. The
fact that "because it's wrong" does not appear in season 3 is even more
so.
> Faith's fantasy of stabbing Willow is nice-n-shocking, both in its
> suddenness and in the sudden reveal. It's the only time this episode
> uses that device; a lesser show would've overdone it.
Considering the choices from TYG:
"Beat the crap out of her"
The Police
The Council
The Initiative for Containment
the stabbing fantasy was not be completely unexpected.
> It makes sense from a plot standpoint that the Watchers' Council or
> their representatives would get involved, but I don't care much about
> them. Now, didn't part one end with Giles being ominously confronted
> by British guys? Now are we supposed to think that they were just
> dropping by to give him a heads-up? I'm a little confused.
We've seen the Council as "Watchers" (Giles, Post, Wesley)
We've seen the Council as Hard nosed "business men" (Quinten, Wesley)
Now we get to see them as true unpleasant Killers. Taking care of a
problem.
> Maybe I'll pretend to care about Adam again next week, but not during
> a Faith episode, okay? The vampires after they've become fearless
> are good enough baddies in a disposable way.
It's kind of hard to care about Adam when F is so much more dangerous,
at the moment.
> In the Bronze, the writers take another chance to let magic put a
> different spin on the Gellar/Marsters chemistry. Spike telling Faith
> what they both "should" already know is a little too contrivance-y,
> but the rest of the scene is entertaining; someone certainly seems to
> like having that kind of sexual power over someone, and Spike's final
> threat has teeth even if he doesn't. Faith is more casually bitchy
> with Tara (sidenotes: I loved "So we've never met?;" "driving
> stick" is a new one to me), but what I wasn't expecting was for the
> latter to so easily figure out the truth. It'd be more obvious to
> just have her be pouty, and we like to avoid the obvious here.
More later......but my biggest issue with the ep exactly.
> Willow and Tara's spell is shot in a very "magical" way, with the
> lush music and the slow spread of the circle of fire. It's like
> it's trying to induce a sense of wonder, like a Narnia or Potter
> movie. That's an interesting contrast to the way magic is usually
> portrayed on this series, and gorgeous to watch, especially with the
> dialogue pushed to the background of the audio mix. Now, going to
> ROT-13 for a second, bar nern ba juvpu V'z abg ernyyl gbgnyyl hafcbvyrq
> pbapreaf gur gjb jvgpurf, nygubhtu nyy V ernyyl xabj vf gung gurl
> riraghnyyl trg gbtrgure va n jnl gung fbzr ivrjref svaq
> haurnygul/gjvfgrq/nohfvir. Fb V znl abg or nf creprcgvir nf V frrz
> jvgu nal "vafvtugf." In any case, along with the magic and sweetness,
> there are a few quietly offputting things here, mostly through
> comparison with the rest of the episode. I mean, obviously the spell
> is played like a sex scene, but more to the point, notice *which* sex
> scene it's juxtaposed with. Also Willow's comment about wanting
> something that's "hers" makes sense in a geeky Willowy way, but
> Tara's worshipful "I am, you know" is less innocent... and note
> that of all the episodes in which this conversation could've taken
> place, the writers chose this one. Hmm. Just some idle speculation.
>
> >From there we should talk about Faith seducing Riley, except that most
> of that pretty much speaks for itself. I couldn't shake the feeling
> that I should've found it more disturbing or engaging than it
> actually was. I think I'll irrationally blame Riley, just because.
> With Faith's recoiling both before and after, it's, as always, hard
> to figure out exactly what's going on with her. Things start to
> clarify a little during her interesting brief scene with Forrest. And
> then there's [continued in a later paragraph]
Now may be the right time:
Joyce, Willow, Xander, Giles and Riley - all should have picked up on
"it".
Joyce - not knowing the language of her own daughter failed in the
first scene.
Willow - not knowing her "best friend" before the total stranger
(Tara), failed. The "get off you ass and stake the vamp stare. -
failed.
Xander - when has B ever cut him down "sexually".
Giles - the laughter after the "taken to England" speech.
Riley - and the sex games.
There was no out and out reason for any one of them to call her on it
(and in fact Joyce and to some extent Xander did, while Giles just gave
the pointed stare), no one seemed to do anything until Tara was
insulted. Hmmmm.... Artistic liberties - OK, but it still bugs.
As far as Riley, I don't remember if I posted this for TYG but I will
restate it here.
"B and R is a wonderful scene and a wonderful setup. For two people
who couldn't find a way to talk to each other, they seem to have gotten
it down. Very good understanding in their differences. Very nice
setup. More later....."
Yet, when Fuffy (or is it Baith - dammit) starts the games....failed.
Probably the most problematic part of the ep. Everyone sort of glides
over it in order to get to the end of the story. Artistic liberties
aside, it's a great ep. Include all the little things that, as they
add up.....What should have been Dead Giveaways
Didn't JOYCE tell you.......... ? (Xander, Willow, Giles)
B laughing at Faith being taken to England.
Even Spike (the intuitive one) -'Cause I'm a stuck-up tight-ass with no
sense of fun?
Blowing of Steam at the Bronze.....In Direct contrast to TYG's Adam.
Adam. Adam.
[snip]
Some random comments on some random comments:
Everyone does contribute in their own way to Faith's "breakdown". In
the same respect, B also gets a taste of something that she's dabbled
with over the last few seasons. Since B seems to be a little easier in
that depart, I'll give my random thoughts there first.
B has walked the Bad Girl line a few times. WSWB, BG and to some
extent Anne and GD1. Her ability (or obsession) to take responsibility
for her actions pretty much keep her on the straight and narrow. But
with the switch, B gets a taste of the punishment (without the crime)
and to find out what it is like to be hated (trash, it's awake), spit
in the face and almost killed because of "orders". Ironically, Faith
has already experienced this to some extent, if only in her own mind.
B gets to see, hear, feel what it's like to be completely out of
control and unable to stop it. Sinking, Alone, Forgotten.
And while B goes down, F is LIFTED up. She is also faced with the
truth about herself, but with gentler arms. There was no clawing her
way out of the grave as in TYG. F had to learn a new game. The game
was not how to be a slayer, girlfriend, friend, daughter. The game was
how to give and take. Instead of the Want, Take, Have she usually
lives by. Protecting Willow, the saved girl behind the Bronze (bad,
bad, bad acting) show F what could have been (and what could be) by
"giving" along with the taking. The scene immediately after "I love
you" is shattering, but it closes on a face that is no longer there.
Not B, not F. Someone who, at that moment, has yet to exist.
Riley: What happened?
Faith: Nothing. Nothing.
Lie or Realization?????
So who did it? Riley? Willow? Joyce? IMOH, it was Buffy. By living
and loving and taking responsibility. Rules that F has not had to live
by. At 8:25 she's still ready to hit the runway. Tickets in hand she
had to make a decision. Do what's right or do what's Faith. Did the
question ring loud and clear or was it just me? "What would Buffy do?"
How much of F became B, I flip flop, but it's very clear that TYG was
great setup:
Faith: Do you think it's gonna rain?
Wilkins: Nonsense. It's a beautiful day. Now eat your sandwich.
Faith: I don't know. It's just . . . it always seems like it starts
raining right about now.
Faith is faced with herself, for the first time. Her issues, for the
first time. Her problems, for the first time. And for the first time,
she herself has to answer. Faith fought for her NEW life, to not go
back to who she was, or what she had become. Crazy? No. Like always,
she knew exactly what she was doing. It's one think to hit rock bottom
when you're standing on a rock. Quite another to hit rock bottom
standing at the edge of paradise.
Then again, I could be full of shit.
I'm going to bed.
Michael Ikeda
news:1147527748....@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
> review threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Four, Episode 16: "Who Are You?"
> (or "To cut her throat i' the church")
> Writer: Joss Whedon
> Director: Joss Whedon
>
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> - Xander claiming his "hey."
> - "I guess that's just regular justice"
> - Willow bringing up hyena posessions
"Our families are in there. Our mothers and tiny, tiny babies."
One other fun note that the spell used for the body swap is called
Katra. Which also happens to be the term for a Vulcan's "living
spirit" in the "Search for Spock" Star Trek movie.
>
> We don't get much of a handle yet on how Slayer and Soldier-Boy
> will relate to each other now. At least she tells him the
> story, and there's no irrational blame as far as I can see. The
> rather abrupt non-resolution to Faith' story is strange. I just
> assume that means we'll see her again. I'm trying not to get
> too excited over what could be nothing, but I do know that
> there's an _Angel_ episode coming a few weeks from now called
> "Five By Five."
Of course, it could just be about Angel Investigations joining a
local night basketball league...
Stephen Tempest
>Now, going to
>ROT-13 for a second, bar nern ba juvpu V'z abg ernyyl gbgnyyl hafcbvyrq
>pbapreaf gur gjb jvgpurf, nygubhtu nyy V ernyyl xabj vf gung gurl
>riraghnyyl trg gbtrgure va n jnl gung fbzr ivrjref svaq
>haurnygul/gjvfgrq/nohfvir. Fb V znl abg or nf creprcgvir nf V frrz
>jvgu nal "vafvtugf."
It's possible that the spoiler you heard, or your understanding of it,
wasn't accurate. Don't necessarily expect things to develop in the
show the precise way you've indicated here... and don't let your
possibly-false or at least misleading knowledge of later developments
colour what's shown on screen now.
Certainly in my opinion, nothing we've been shown of Willow and Tara
so far can be called gjvfgrq/nohfvir. And the only possible haurnygul
element is that Tara is clearly both insecure and hero-worships
Willow, putting Willow in the dominant position in the
friendship/relationship perhaps a little more than could be thought
entirely healthy.
But then again, Tara is pretty similar to the way Willow was in the
earlier seasons - and in fact, in the commentary to Hush it was
implied that she was put into the show precisely to fill the "helpless
victim to be rescued" role now that Willow herself has grown out of
that.
Juxtaposing the Faith/Riley and Willow/Tara bedroom scenes may have
been intended as a contrast rather than a parallel... (Well, unless
you take into consideration Tara's dark secret hinted at in the
earlier episode, of course...)
Stephen
kenm47
decisive blow)."
Nicely summed.
Ken (Brooklyn)
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Michael Ikeda <mmi...@erols.com> wrote:
having given up on cell phones
they buy walkie talkies and spend the episode checking them
i read you 2x4
i read you 4x3
i read you 5x5
thats because youre standing behind me
i read you 5x4
check
check
check
check
check
check
check
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
(Harmony) Watcher
"Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
news:dsample-7F66A1...@news.giganews.com...
> In article <dJy9g.159670$7a.18645@pd7tw1no>,
> "\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
>
> > "KenM47" <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> > news:15bc62lq0lvgcukuo...@4ax.com...
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > Then she's confronted with "herself," Baith.
> > >
> > LOL. I like "Fuffy" better.
>
> You can't have one without the other. Fuffy went into the church to
> save the people, and wound up with a vamp about to bite her. Baith
> shows up and stakes the vamp. Then Fuffy goes postal and starts wailing
> on Baith, until Baith catches her hand, holding Willow and Tara's home
> conjured Katra between their palms, to turn them back into Buffy and
> Faith.
>
cutest moniker (juvpu, sbe fbzr ernfba, erzvaqrq zr bs Ybear'f pelcgvp gb
Serq "Ubj'f Syhssl?"). I was also laughing at the potential confusion posed
by the monikers "Fuffy" and "Baith". I know that people are using them in,
perhaps, the most obvious manner (with apologies to long time users of this
newsgroup if those two monikers were standard terms in the Buffy veracular):
Fuffy: Faith's soul + Buffy's body.
Baith: Buffy's soul + Faith's body.
But they could easily be mistaken as follows:
Fuffy: Faith's body + Buffy's soul.
Baith: Buffy's body + Faith's soul.
==Harmony Watcher==
BTR1701
"John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
Yes, we're all sure. AOQ himself has even confirmed it.
BTR1701
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> Mel wrote:
>
> > The first time I saw this episode I hated it. I was sure it lasted at
> > least 4 hours and I just wanted it to finally be over.
> >
> > I couldn't believe that no one who knew Buffy, and had known her for
> > years, wouldn't realize that Fuffy wasn't Buffy. Riley, the guy who
> > supposedly loves her, doesn't figure it out . I give him a partial pass
> > because magic is basically unknown to him. But Joyce? Giles? Willow?
> > Xander? Anya? No one suspected a thing. And the person who notices, who
> > senses something *immediately* as not right, is the one person of the
> > bunch who has never even met Buffy.
>
> Disagreed completely. We haven't seen a body-switch like this before.
> Our heroes simply have no reason to expect the unexpectable, and I
> think it's unrealistic to expect them to instantly pick up on it. Real
> people are moody and act slightly "off" from time to time without there
> being anything else to it.
Exactly. I've had friends act strange from time to time, as I have
probably done myself. When my college roommate was moody or said
something weird, my first response wasn't "Holy shit, someone must have
possessed his body!"
BTR1701
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
You and me both. Never have and never will. I never use the terms
"Scoobies" or "vamps", either. A vamp is a short introductory musical
passage, repeated several times, or a woman who uses her charm or wiles
to seduce and exploit men.
drifter
I read it again when you came to the stunningly illogical conclusion
that AOQ was a bigot, and I still can't fathom how you got there.
By your logic, my saying, f'rinstance, that my brother dislikes
cats makes *me* anti-feline. Like you said, read it again.
--
Kel
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own."
drifter
You can be a real fuddy duddy when you try.
<insert smiley emoticon>
--
Kel - Wondering if you *could* combine names if you were dead.
Mel
Don Sample wrote:
> In article <1147586653.9...@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Mel wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The first time I saw this episode I hated it. I was sure it lasted at
>>>least 4 hours and I just wanted it to finally be over.
>>>
>>>I couldn't believe that no one who knew Buffy, and had known her for
>>>years, wouldn't realize that Fuffy wasn't Buffy. Riley, the guy who
>>>supposedly loves her, doesn't figure it out . I give him a partial pass
>>>because magic is basically unknown to him. But Joyce? Giles? Willow?
>>>Xander? Anya? No one suspected a thing. And the person who notices, who
>>>senses something *immediately* as not right, is the one person of the
>>>bunch who has never even met Buffy.
>>
>>Disagreed completely. We haven't seen a body-switch like this before.
>
>
> Yes we have, back in season 1, when Amy was swapped with her mother.
And the scary thing there is no one noticed for several weeks, until
"Amy" started attacking cheerleaders.
Mel
Daniel Damouth
news:OZF9g.161781$WI1.152159@pd7tw2no:
> But they could easily be mistaken as follows:
>
> Fuffy: Faith's body + Buffy's soul.
> Baith: Buffy's body + Faith's soul.
Yes, I would have assumed that Fuffy is Faith's face on Buffy and Baith
is Buffy's face on Faith.
Say *that* several times fast, and try not go to a slashy place.
-Dan Damouth
Arbitrar Of Quality
Or to make it an even more direct analogy, saying that your brother
dislikes one particular cat would make you anti-feline.
-AOQ
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Daniel Damouth <dam...@san.rr.com> wrote:
how about baity and fuffh
buffy outside and faith inside
or faith outside and buffy inside
marika
BTR1701 wrote:
>
> Watch the episode and find out.
Fantastic, it's already played don't know how I could! And good to hear
from you . I'd love to hear your
opinions, by the by, of it, especially
Looking forward to the story about ...
mk5000
"it's a good look just to be with your WU brothers on stage. I'm just
ready to get it on and represent my man. That's what the fans want to
see"--ghostface killah
(Harmony) Watcher
"Mel" <melb...@uci.net> wrote in message
news:JMydncooU75...@uci.net...
passed since the body swap as she told Buffy & Giles who was visiting Amy's
house while the witch (Catherine-in-Amy's body) was away
(http://bdb.vrya.net/bdb/clip.php?clip=3102).
==Harmony Watcher==
George W Harris
:
:
:Don Sample wrote:
:
:> In article <1147586653.9...@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
:> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
:>
:>
:>>Mel wrote:
:>>
:>>Disagreed completely. We haven't seen a body-switch like this before.
:>
:>
:> Yes we have, back in season 1, when Amy was swapped with her mother.
:
:And the scary thing there is no one noticed for several weeks, until
:"Amy" started attacking cheerleaders.
Weeks? We have *no* *idea* how long Amy and her
mother were switched. It could have been years.
:Mel
--
"Intelligence is too complex to capture in a single number." -Alfred Binet
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
Don Sample
George W Harris <gha...@mundsprung.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 14 May 2006 08:45:01 -0700, Mel <melb...@uci.net> wrote:
>
> :
> :
> :Don Sample wrote:
> :
> :> In article <1147586653.9...@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> :> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> :>
> :>
> :>>Mel wrote:
> :>>
> :>>Disagreed completely. We haven't seen a body-switch like this before.
> :>
> :>
> :> Yes we have, back in season 1, when Amy was swapped with her mother.
> :
> :And the scary thing there is no one noticed for several weeks, until
> :"Amy" started attacking cheerleaders.
>
> Weeks? We have *no* *idea* how long Amy and her
> mother were switched. It could have been years.
According to Amy, it was months:
Amy: A few months ago, I woke up in her bed! I didn't know where
I was, and then I looked in the mirror...
One Bit Shy
news:1147586154....@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>> That totally cracks me up. Funniest moment in the episode for me. But
>> the
>> speech that follows is amazing - as well as the close-up of SMG with the
>> ruby lips. (I don't know if you ever saw SMG's movie Cruel Intentions,
>> but
>> I can't help think that if it had been able to more consistently get
>> across
>> the mood projected in this scene, that movie would have improved a couple
>> big notches.)
>
> I always liked CI. It's a movie that knows exactly what it's going
> for.
Oh, I like Cruel Intentions fine. (Not just the famous kiss either. Though
that's nice.) But I always thought it needed an extra level of bite.
Usually I write that off to how young the characters are. It's hard for me
to buy them as being as experienced and world weary as I think they should
be. But then I see this SMG scene and think that's awfully close to the
mood I imagine.
Dangerous Liaisons and Valmont are fun takes on the story too, if you
haven't seen them, though they're the costume drama versions.
>> I think this is a pretty big moment for Tara. We've had hints that Tara
>> might be stronger magically than shown yet, and definitely that her
>> magical
>> discipline is extremely different than Willow's - not the dark magics
>> from
>> Giles books. But it's been very vague until now.
>
> Interesting to contrast the kind fo stuff she's capable of with her
> caution, and the show of modesty in "Hush" and others.
Modesty? Hmmm. Well, she did make a big deal about how powerful Willow is
somewhere - I don't remember exactly when. I had thought of Tara as more
timid than modest.
Either way. If you think about it, that doesn't actually contrast
capability, but rather hide it.
In any case, I don't want to over emphasize her capabilities. Willow's
still the big gun when it comes to magic. What's more important, I think,
is that Tara's skills are different - come from a different place.
>> > Now, going to
>> > ROT-13 for a second, bar nern ba juvpu V'z abg ernyyl gbgnyyl hafcbvyrq
>> > pbapreaf gur gjb jvgpurf, nygubhtu nyy V ernyyl xabj vf gung gurl
>> > riraghnyyl trg gbtrgure va n jnl gung fbzr ivrjref svaq
>> > haurnygul/gjvfgrq/nohfvir. Fb V znl abg or nf creprcgvir nf V frrz
>> > jvgu nal "vafvtugf."
>>
>> I'm sorry, but I can take that multiple ways with radically different
>> responses. You'll need to be more explicit.
>
> Which I can't, because I fortunately don't know anything else about it.
> To be discussed later, I suppose.
Well, by all interpratations that I can imagine, the description is at least
woefully incomplete IMO. I don't think it's worth looking for. Events will
happen on thier own terms anyway.
>> I'm not grasping what you're getting at about which sex scene and this of
>> all episodes.
>
> Just a juxtaposition thing. BTVS sometimes makes its points and
> foreshadowing through putting together stories that parallel each
> other. Taken in isolation, Willow wanting Tara to be "hers" is
> something that could have been made explicit at any point in the last
> few episodes without altering much of anything. I'm just speculating
> that it may not be an accident that Joss chose to put that conversation
> in a Faith episode.
Why? Because Faith takes what she wants? Because Faith took Xander?
To me the parallel is a simpler more distant one of two sex scenes happening
at the same time. Two examples of emotional and erotic connections being
made. I could easily be missing something though. There's a lot of stuff
going on in this episode.
>> That being said, the play of the scene with Riley - especially near the
>> end
>> when she pushes him away and speaks sort of nonsense - confused me for a
>> long time. At one point I thought Tara's spell had put Willow into Buffy
>> at
>> an -erm- inopportune time. (Well, some people have suggested that Riley
>> and
>> Willow should have gotten together. heh.) It plays better to me now
>> that
>> I've put it together better and understand, for example, that Faith,
>> confused, stops pretending to be Buffy for a few lines as she tries to
>> make
>> sense of the Riley experience.
>>
>> But I can attest that at least some viewers have trouble making sense of
>> the
>> scene initially.
>
> Can't say I ever thought Willow was involved, but count me in on the
> confusion.
The Willow notion came because she's supposed to be doing some kind of
astral projection, but we never see that part happen. Where does Willow go?
When Faith pushes Riley away in bed and speaks a bit incoherently, that's
the same time as I was looking for Willow's projected self to be depicted
somehow. Since Faith wasn't making sense, I thought maybe somehow it was
Willow speaking. That doesn't make sense either - but that's how I got
there. Probably managed to confuse myself even more.
OBS
Mike Zeares
drifter wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > (Harmony) Watcher wrote:
> >> "KenM47" <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> >> news:15bc62lq0lvgcukuo...@4ax.com...
> >
> >>> Then she's confronted with "herself," Baith.
> >>>
> >> LOL. I like "Fuffy" better.
> >
> > I will not be caqught dead combining characters' names like that in
> > any context.
> >
> > -AOQ
> > ~just saying~
>
> You can be a real fuddy duddy when you try.
> <insert smiley emoticon>
Heh. I use Fuffy because I'm lazy. The other standard way of
referring to them is Faith-in-Buffy and Buffy-in-Faith.
-- Mike Zeares
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> On Sun, 14 May 2006 08:45:01 -0700, Mel <melb...@uci.net> wrote:
>
> :
> :
> :Don Sample wrote:
> :
> :> In article <1147586653.9...@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> :> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> :>
> :>
> :>>Mel wrote:
> :>>
> :>>Disagreed completely. We haven't seen a body-switch like this before.
> :>
> :>
> :> Yes we have, back in season 1, when Amy was swapped with her mother.
> :
> :And the scary thing there is no one noticed for several weeks, until
> :"Amy" started attacking cheerleaders.
>
> Weeks? We have *no* *idea* how long Amy and her
> mother were switched. It could have been years.
possibly sometime over the summer
willow said that she had been plumper before (previous year?)
snacking on brownies
so the slim down probably occured with the new tenant
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> Willow speaking. That doesn't make sense either - but that's how I got
> there. Probably managed to confuse myself even more.
shes asking riley what it means to love buffy
and momentarily forgets shes imitating buffy in buffys body
and acts instead like a third person observing a couple
George W Harris
wrote:
:To me the parallel is a simpler more distant one of two sex scenes happening
:at the same time. Two examples of emotional and erotic connections being
:made. I could easily be missing something though. There's a lot of stuff
:going on in this episode.
:
And where there's a parallel there's a contrast.
In one, there's much more of an emotional and spiritual
connection rather than physical, in the other it's the
other way around.
--
"The truths of mathematics describe a bright and clear universe,
exquisite and beautiful in its structure, in comparison with
which the physical world is turbid and confused."
-Eulogy for G.H.Hardy
One Bit Shy
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mair_fheal-D3FBF...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
>> somehow. Since Faith wasn't making sense, I thought maybe somehow it was
>> Willow speaking. That doesn't make sense either - but that's how I got
>> there. Probably managed to confuse myself even more.
>
> shes asking riley what it means to love buffy
> and momentarily forgets shes imitating buffy in buffys body
> and acts instead like a third person observing a couple
Oh, I understand it now. That was just a memory of my original confusion
some years back. Now I think it's pretty funny. Definitely some very
smutty fanfic possibilities in that scenario.
OBS
William George Ferguson
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>
>
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Four, Episode 16: "Who Are You?"
>(or "To cut her throat i' the church")
>Writer: Joss Whedon
>Director: Joss Whedon
>
>According to Mrs. Q., the post-intro credits list "Eliza Dushku as
>Buffy." I'm amused.
Actually, I believe it lists "Eliza Dushku as Buffy Summers"
>The first question one is inclined to ask with an episode like this is
>how the actors will do when suddenly forced to play a different
>character (and in Gellar's case, a character trying to pose as her
>usual role). SMG gets more screen time, and she's good. I thought
>some of the early act-two scenes were a little *too* much Buffy
>(obviously her imitation had to be good enough to not arouse alarm with
>the Scoobies, but I thought it was a little excessive), but most of the
>time it's not hard to imagine another character underneath (more on
>that in a second). Dushku isn't in this one so much, I don't know
>if Joss thought Gellar was the stronger actor or just that Buffy's
>role in the episode wasn't as interesting. In any case, she's also
>solid, and I could see the Buffy there during her scene with Giles.
>Nice to know that any Slayer in that body is going to be good with her
>feet...
I think that Dushku did Gellar playing Buffy better than Gellar did Dushku
plyaing Faith playing Buffy, but Gellar had by far the harder task, and
was on screen far more than Dushku (this wasn't neccesarily based on
which one Whedon thought was a better actor, it's just a fact that Gellar
is the star of the show, not Dushku). In the one extended scene Dushku
has as Baith (the Giles scene), she absolutely nails Gellar, her body
language, her mannerisms, her voice tone, everything.
>Faith's fantasy of stabbing Willow is nice-n-shocking, both in its
>suddenness and in the sudden reveal. It's the only time this episode
>uses that device; a lesser show would've overdone it.
It also give us a nice insight into Faith's mind, this is how her brains
is now processing things, psychotically.
>It makes sense from a plot standpoint that the Watchers' Council or
>their representatives would get involved, but I don't care much about
>them. Now, didn't part one end with Giles being ominously confronted
>by British guys? Now are we supposed to think that they were just
>dropping by to give him a heads-up? I'm a little confused.
You did get that the guys who grabbed Baith were the same guys that talked
to Giles at the end of TYG, right?
Re-organizing your comments to fit narrative flow:
>Also Willow's comment about wanting
>something that's "hers" makes sense in a geeky Willowy way, but
>Tara's worshipful "I am, you know" is less innocent... and note
>that of all the episodes in which this conversation could've taken
>place, the writers chose this one. Hmm. Just some idle speculation.
"I am you know." is the exact split second when the first three letters of
'subtext' went away. Fuffy's comment about Willow not driving stick
anymore was just reinforcement.
>Willow and Tara's spell is shot in a very "magical" way, with the
>lush music and the slow spread of the circle of fire. It's like
>it's trying to induce a sense of wonder, like a Narnia or Potter
>movie. That's an interesting contrast to the way magic is usually
>portrayed on this series, and gorgeous to watch, especially with the
>dialogue pushed to the background of the audio mix. Now, going to
>ROT-13 for a second, bar nern ba juvpu V'z abg ernyyl gbgnyyl hafcbvyrq
>pbapreaf gur gjb jvgpurf, nygubhtu nyy V ernyyl xabj vf gung gurl
>riraghnyyl trg gbtrgure va n jnl gung fbzr ivrjref svaq
>haurnygul/gjvfgrq/nohfvir. Fb V znl abg or nf creprcgvir nf V frrz
>jvgu nal "vafvtugf." In any case, along with the magic and sweetness,
>there are a few quietly offputting things here, mostly through
>comparison with the rest of the episode. I mean, obviously the spell
>is played like a sex scene, but more to the point, notice *which* sex
>scene it's juxtaposed with.
Actually if you've seen any referenct to 'the Willow Orgasm Spell' online,
that wasit.
>>From there we should talk about Faith seducing Riley, except that most
>of that pretty much speaks for itself. I couldn't shake the feeling
>that I should've found it more disturbing or engaging than it
>actually was. I think I'll irrationally blame Riley, just because.
>With Faith's recoiling both before and after, it's, as always, hard
>to figure out exactly what's going on with her. Things start to
>clarify a little during her interesting brief scene with Forrest. And
>then there's [continued in a later paragraph]
The main thing here with the scene, is she can't deal with the fact that
Riley really cares about Buffy, it isn't just sex.
>I wasn't as happy with some of the early dialogue during the
>Buffy/Giles scene. Not the best time to use Rupert as comic relief,
>and Buffy should've gone with the facts-as-proof strategy right away.
> Things shape up, since we do feel that it's Buffy, trying to reach
>out. There's the logical mention of the events of "A New Man,"
>and then how 'bout her relating Joyce's thoughts ("do you want me
>to continue?" "Actually, I beg you to stop")? Now *that's*
>funny. I don't know what a whatever-dor is either.
For the record, a stevedore is a dock worker. They load and unload
freight from ships.
>[continued from earlier paragraph] her constant repetition of "I'm
>Buffy" towards the end, and it culminates in her massive release of
>"self"-loathing during the final fight scene. The images in this
>part are good, between once again using the BG/"Consequences" view
>of "Faith" stabbing a vamp from behind to save "Buffy," and
>then Faith immediately going after Buffy with intent to maim. And in>the end, she runs away without a word...
You've noted the upcoming Angel titles, of course. Back in the day, WAY
aired on February 29, 2000, followed by the Angel episode "The Ring".
Neither show aired the next new episode until April 4, five weeks later,
and then did not air the following new ep until April 25 (at which point
they showed new eps through to the end of the season). The finely tuned
spoiler machine that now exists did not really have any presence back
then, and we typically didn't find out anything about new episodes until
about two weeks. Picture the two newsgroups around April 11, when the
title, without any description, of Angel 1x18 started being listed on the
various tv listings.
Common phrases that we no longer have to avoid:
"Cleavagy Slut Bomb"
And for some of us the scene of the ep:
Willow: Tara, it's not like I don't want my friends to know you. It's
just... well, Buffy's like my best friend, and she's really special.
And... there's this whole bunch of us, and-and we sort of have this group
thing that revolves around the slaying, and, and I, I really want you to
meet them. But I just kinda like having something that's just, you know...
mine. And I-I usually don't use so many words to say stuff that little,
but... do you get it at all?
Tara: I do.
Willow: I should check in with Giles, get a situation update.
Tara: I am, you know.
Willow: What?
Tara: Yours.
Some of the rampant speculation about Tara before this episode (and some
continued after the episode)
Tara was somehow the spirit/soul of Amy Madison (people picked up on that
'a rat' bit way back)
Tara was time travelling daughter of Willow and Oz (I'm not making this
up)
Tara was the avatar of a goddess
Tara was (part) demon (of course, a Not Evil Evil Thing, another phrase we
no longer have to avoid)
Tara was a nature spirit
and more, so much more.
--
HERBERT
1996 - 1997
Beloved Mascot
Delightful Meal
He fed the Pack
A little
Don Sample
William George Ferguson <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> >A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> >threads.
> >
> >>From there we should talk about Faith seducing Riley, except that most
> >of that pretty much speaks for itself. I couldn't shake the feeling
> >that I should've found it more disturbing or engaging than it
> >actually was. I think I'll irrationally blame Riley, just because.
> >With Faith's recoiling both before and after, it's, as always, hard
> >to figure out exactly what's going on with her. Things start to
> >clarify a little during her interesting brief scene with Forrest. And
> >then there's [continued in a later paragraph]
>
> The main thing here with the scene, is she can't deal with the fact that
> Riley really cares about Buffy, it isn't just sex.
Also, for the first time in her life Faith's got a guy in that situation
saying "I love you," and meaning it, not just feeding her a line, but
he's not saying it to her.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> >something that's "hers" makes sense in a geeky Willowy way, but
> >Tara's worshipful "I am, you know" is less innocent... and note
> >that of all the episodes in which this conversation could've taken
> >place, the writers chose this one. Hmm. Just some idle speculation.
>
> "I am you know." is the exact split second when the first three letters of
> 'subtext' went away. Fuffy's comment about Willow not driving stick
> anymore was just reinforcement.
we can guess about tara
but willow hasnt made any confessions of undying love for tara
or even if shes aware of taras feelings
kenm47
And the first time I heard Fuffy and Baith, I thought it very clever.
Ken (Brooklyn)
kenm47
Funny. I see it the other way. I thought SMG did a tour de force, while
Dushku ewas fine, just now jaw dropping as SMG was.
>
>
> >Faith's fantasy of stabbing Willow is nice-n-shocking, both in its
> >suddenness and in the sudden reveal. It's the only time this episode
> >uses that device; a lesser show would've overdone it.
>
> It also give us a nice insight into Faith's mind, this is how her brains
> is now processing things, psychotically.
I'vew always thought there was something more going on in that scene,
but I'm not sure what. The sincerity of the line reading "I would never
let her hurt you" always throws me. I see it as the first of the
merging moments, followed later by Fuffy's unease by the rescued
vamopire vic at The Bronze, later her going nutso ("This is
meaningless") over having been made love to (rather than just having
sex), her confrontation with Forrest when she for a moment does care
what he thinks, and later the "I'm Buffy. I have to do this," "Because
it's wrong" and "The one and only."
The episodes are brilliantly almost all about Faith, making us care
again for her redemption. But there's more than Faith (including her
dreams, prophetic here and in the future).
The additional stuff (Particularly "I am, you know ...Yours") just
astounds me at the brilliance of the efficiency in bringing us along
and the emotions invoked (including stuttering Tara being a very
powerful intuitive witch who finds the way of resolving it all, and
Willow's Big "O"). And they don't lose the humor either ("Giles, we're
checking for Buffy, not a concussion.") And all the references to
earlier epoisodes, (hyenas, stevedores, Oz, etc.)
Have I said how great I think this episode (it may be two parts, but I
see it as a ONE) is?
<SNIP the rest>
Ken (Brooklyn)
kenm47
But he could be if she allows the transformation to go to its end, a
transformation she later welcomes only to be confronted with herself,
or, rather, Baith.
Ken (Brooklyn)
kenm47
I thought it was (to borrow a word) wicked obvious. As was Willow's
discomfort. But Tara comes across either as a saint giving Willow time,
or at least totally selfless in good and bad ways.
Ken (Brooklyn)
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
ellsworth tooheys niece?
kenm47
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
> In article <1147694826.6...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> "kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> > mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
> > > > >Also Willow's comment about wanting
> > > > >something that's "hers" makes sense in a geeky Willowy way, but
> > > > >Tara's worshipful "I am, you know" is less innocent... and note
> > > > >that of all the episodes in which this conversation could've taken
> > > > >place, the writers chose this one. Hmm. Just some idle speculation.
> > > >
> > > > "I am you know." is the exact split second when the first three letters of
> > > > 'subtext' went away. Fuffy's comment about Willow not driving stick
> > > > anymore was just reinforcement.
> > >
> > > we can guess about tara
> > > but willow hasnt made any confessions of undying love for tara
> > > or even if shes aware of taras feelings
> > >
> > > arf meow arf - nsa fodder
> > > al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
> > > if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
> >
> > I thought it was (to borrow a word) wicked obvious. As was Willow's
> > discomfort. But Tara comes across either as a saint giving Willow time,
> > or at least totally selfless in good and bad ways.
>
> ellsworth tooheys niece?
>
<Shrug>
Ken (Brooklyn)
alphakitten
I agree. SMG did the bad girl thing well, but there wasn't a trace of ED
in her performance. ED did a spot on Buffy/SMG, especially in that scene
with Giles.
~Angel
peachy ashie passion
Me too. But I still have to hope I know which is meant through
context, because there is no intuitive sense to me about which is which.
kenm47
And for me, with the body posture, the sitting knees akimbo and the
airplane propeller leg pivot standing, the voice (I definitely recall
at least one Massachustettes "about" in there) I see Faith looking
through Buffy's eyes, and for ED I pretty much just see ED with a trace
or two of Buffy looking through Faith's eyes.
Ken (Brooklyn)
eli...@gmail.com
>airplane propeller leg pivot standing, the voice (I definitely recall
>at least one Massachustettes "about" in there) I see Faith looking
>through Buffy's eyes, and for ED I pretty much just see ED with a trace
>or two of Buffy looking through Faith's eyes.
Well this is one thing we can agree on completely!
kenm47
eli...@gmail.com wrote:
> I'm going to quote a big chunk of a different review of this episode
> (by Spring Summers - I'd link you but sadly there are major spoilers in
> other parts) that points out a lot of good stuff:
>
> Like the Watcher goons, Faith has chosen to harden herself to avoid
> pain and protect herself. She prefers it to allowing herself to be
> hurt, the way Joyce and Tara are allowing Buffy and Willow to hurt
> them. Faith believes these are her only two choices. But are they,
> really? Must she be Tara, who retains her softness and ability to love
> and feel - but puts up with Willow hiding her from her friends? Or
> otherwise, must she continue to be like Collins and Weatherby, who stay
> in control, impervious to pain, but have lost a good portion of their
> humanity?
>
> No. Those aren't Faith's only choices, as she learns in her
> encounter with Riley. But Faith has believed in her "I'd rather be
> tough than be a goody-two-shoes wimp" philosophy for so long, that
> she is profoundly disturbed and confused by her encounter with the
> imperturbable - but still very human - Riley.
>
> What happens when Faith encounters Riley? Faith, as Buffy, tries to
> take control of the sexual encounter with Riley. But he isn't
> vulnerable to her kinky come-ons. He loves Buffy, and he takes a
> simple, honest, loving - and irresistible - approach to dealing
> with "Buffy's" unappealing suggestions. There are no ultimatums,
> no games. Riley simply knows what he wants. He has self-respect, and
> standards. He's interested in sex with Buffy, but not so desperate
> or needy that he's willing to do things her way because he's afraid
> she'll say no otherwise.
>
> Riley's combination of strength and tenderness leaves Faith shaken
> and confused. It doesn't fit into her view of the world as The Mayor
> has defined it - a place where one is a master, or one is a slave. Her
> night with Riley puts the final lie to Faith's long-held, cherished
> belief that life is always a choice between eating or being eaten,
> using or being used.
>
> Now, Faith has been privy to the better life Buffy has achieved both
> through the luck of the draw, and through Buffy's own strength and
> difficult choices. In this environment, Faith's basic human needs
> have begun to be met. Through her encounters with Joyce, Riley and
> others, she experiences true love, trust, high expectations (Willow
> expecting her to kill the vampire) and genuine appreciation (from the
> girl she saves: "Thank you. Thank you!").
>
> [...]
>
> Like Buffy reacting to being injected with a sedative, or Spike
> flinching at the pain from the chip, Faith responds to the internal
> infusion of warmth she receives from Buffy's friends and family. The
> feelings and realizations that begin coursing through her veins disturb
> and frighten her, just as Joyce's hug did. She heads to the airport
> to try to leave behind the confusion of this painful growth; after so
> long in the dark, the light from above is hurting Faith's eyes. But
> it's too late. It's in her system, now. She has begun,
> irrevocably, to change, to climb toward that very light, despite the
> pain. Listen to her exchange with Riley outside the church:
>
> RILEY: "I don't want you risking-"
> BUFFY: "I'm Buffy. I have to do this."
> RILEY: "Then I'm coming with."
> BUFFY: "I can't use you."
>
> This is how she is feeling - that she has become Buffy. That - for
> all her mocking of Buffy in the mirror earlier "It's wrong!" and
> teasing of Spike "Because it's wrong!" - she has actually begun
> to discover the significant difference between right and wrong. And
> though her words to Riley are, on the surface about going into the
> church alone, they also point out the fact that she has realized that
> she "can't use" Riley. He's not like all the men she's used
> before. And amazingly, his love for Buffy and his confident, kind,
> patient nature are what protect Riley from being used. What a
> revelation for Faith, who has always protected herself by not caring
> and by using her fists.
>
> Faith goes into the church a changed woman. She's very much like
> Buffy in her sassy approach to the bad guys, and she battles evil with
> all she's got. Then, she is suddenly confronted with an image from
> her very recent and unhappy past - her body, with Buffy inside. The
> Faith she loathed and tried to leave behind stands before her. Faith
> explodes, beating her own face bloody while trying to deny its
> existence: "You're nothing, you're nothing!!"
>
> But growing and maturing and becoming the best person you can be
> isn't as simple as excising your dark side. That's a fool's
> errand anyhow, because exorcism is not an option. The road to a happy
> and successful adulthood requires one to love, accept, integrate and
> harness the power that dark side. Faith cannot leave any part of
> herself behind, any more than Buffy can, anymore than any of us can.
> There is no easy, painless way to the light. Leading a successful life
> isn't about being in control of every situation. It's about taking
> responsibility rather than control.
Thanks for this. I'm not snipping because I want my newsreader to catch
it and keep it.
I can't praise these two hours of this show high enough. I think
without them, the show would have faded to ordinary in my mind.
When I think of the show the three things that first come to my mind
are this two parter, the Becoming two parter, and The
Wish/Dopplegangland two parter.
Ken (Brooklyn)
kenm47
"mirror" shot of Faith/Fuffy wiggling Buffy's nose like "what is this
thing on my face" is always worth a smile.
Ken (Brooklyn)