AOQ Review 7-13: "The Killer In Me"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Seven, Episode 13: "The Killer In Me"
(or "... Ken-uh-dee!")
Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
Director: David Solomon
I don't think it's much of a secret that Willow's my favorite
character on the show. But anyone who's ever liked one of the
regular cast on any show can empathize with what it's like when the
writers introduce a new love interest. Some fans love seeing a
favorite happily paired off. Others, though... well, viewers have a
tendency to get a bit protective (and sometimes lustful, although
that's not required) of "their" hero, and are choosy about whom
they share him or her with. "S/he's not good enough for Willow!
[Willow wants me so bad...]." In this particular character's case,
the ME writers have seemed, in the past, to be aware of the potential
problems involved in pairing her up. We've talked a bit about the
intense and calculated effort that was made, especially in
"Innocence," to sell then-newbie Oz to the Willow devotees and the
W/X 'shippers. As an initially skeptical member of the former
category, I can tell you that it worked. Then in S4, when it was time
for our Red Witch to get not only a new relationship but a new sexual
orientation, the show took its time with Tara, formulating not only a
good character, but one whom the viewer could see Willow gradually and
convincingly falling for, episode by episode. "New Moon Rising"
didn't feel forced, it was inevitable.
Well, I'm sure everyone's guessed where this ramble is going. I
know what "worthy of Willow" looks like, because her last two
significant others most certainly were. I'm not seeing it in Kennedy
yet. At all. I'm feeling the aforementioned fanboy reaction quite
strongly, actually, so I think I kinda hate her.
Trying to get past the irrational bile and break it down... First of
all, she's not very likable; the strident take-what-I-want manner
seems more unpleasant than endearing to me. It doesn't help that
this episode plays her as if she's Jonathan in "Superstar,"
always in control, an expert on the ways of the ladies, always knowing
just the right thing to say to instantly win Willow's affections and
trust. Skipping out on her responsibilities to hit on someone is fine,
because it's all cute or whatever. Even when she's a little lost,
she's always confident, assertive, and sees to the heart of
everything the way no one else can. Bleah. I'm still waiting for
the punchline to this joke. TKIM seems to want to ascribe a level of
passion and caring to this relationship that is, to say the least,
disproportionate to what seems "earned" by basically a pretty face
and a few flirtatious conversations. I say if Willow "kills" Tara,
it's not because she moves on, but because she moves on to this.
I should mention that there are a few lines in the Willow/Kennedy
scenes that suggest a meaning beyond the surface situation, like
Willow's wondering why her new friend (or perhaps, anyone?) would
like her so unquestioningly. Let's just say that I remain
unconvinced that dropping a girlfriend out of the sky is the best way
to tell any story going in that direction.
Meanwhile, Spike's having headaches again. This plot-let starts off
well, with everyone relaxing in the absence of the (off-screen) gaggle
of teen Chosen. (Oh, by the way, "and then, apparently, someone told
them that the vision quest consists of me driving them to the desert,
doing the Hokey Pokey until a spooky Rasta-mama Slayer arrives and
speaks to them in riddles." Heehee.) There're a few quiet
conversations between vampire and Slayer, who seem like they've
achieved a level of comfort that lets them be forthcoming in their
chats, straight-talking. You know, like they'd also seemed to be
headed towards in S5 and again in S6 before things went horribly wrong
each time. Another part of the reason these parts work is that
Marsters is especially good this week selling the pain - I could
believe that he was in agony.
"Who you gonna call?... God, that phrase is never gonna be useable
again, is it?" doesn't really seem like a Spike line, but it's
funny. And I totally called Willow's appropriate "no" in
response to "remember when things used to be nice and boring?"
One of the things that kept me holding out hope that this episode would
be better is that the notion of turning Willow into Warren is a pretty
cool concept. It's also a source of yet another of the show's
major shortcomings. Hannigan and Busch don't overlap well at all,
and that's even before the Warren personality starts to assert
itself. They don't seem like they're even reading for the same
scene, let alone the same character. No matter how often we cut back
and forth, I don't see the Willow in Warren, or vice versa. But
it's still a good concept. And convincing the others of what's
going on isn't the central thrust either - that's the easy part,
but then there are much deeper issues involved. That's covered in
one fairly entertaining scene that has its mix of worthwhile ideas
(Willow's stubborn insistence that she must have done this to
herself) and humor (the oddly funny moments of Spike collapsing in the
background and no one noticing). So I like that. Nicely loaded
concept, symbolically right.
Failing to figure things out on her own, Wil turns to her friends, who
have accepted her and can always be counted on. No, wait. She tries
to contact the Coven, or someone who can be expected to know their
magic. Okay, that's not right either. She goes straight to the
Wiccan group on campus, somehow knowing that the same people will be
there and they'll have started using real magic despite the fact that
they were clearly going in no such direction in "Hush." As Tom
Servo would say, "that makes a lot of... HUH?" but let's not
dwell on that further. There she meets Amy, who apologizes for her
past sins, but turns out to be the cause of the problem. Along the way
she gives a little monologue about how cute, sweet Willow gets
everything handed to her, even when she tries to destroy the world. A
bit of reflection of part of the fanbase, perhaps, since there's a
subsection of fans who feel that way? I'd be the first to disagree
with the anti-Willow crowd, but this doesn't sit right with me.
Hopefully this won't take too many verbal gymnastics to explain, but
as has been established, I'm fine with the writers poking fun at
their critics: Buffy the Nitpicker in "Goodbye Iowa," Anya the
Spike-Hater in "Never Leave Me," etc. Two-line throwaway gags.
This is different: it casts viewers' words as the motivation for
someone who is, for the purposes of TKIM, a moustache-twirling villain.
It seems mean-spirited in a way the other examples don't: "if you
think Willow got off too easy, then you're Amy." One could argue
that it's a way to address their argument, but it plays more like an
attempt to use a straw-man to deflate it.
That being said, I like Amy's scenes anyway. Even if, to nitpick
some more, we still don't know how she knew Kennedy was a potential
Slayer, or why she'd make such a stupid and obvious slip of the
tongue (or if it was meant to be intentional, why she'd give up her
perfect cover to gloat). But Allen's delivery shines on lines like
the speech mentioned above, and "OK. Oh wait, I forgot. No." And
best of all for both content and delivery is the matter-of-fact "the
hex I cast lets the victim's subconscious pick the form of their
punishment. It's always better than anything I can come up with."
After the talk about strength, her scornful "they don't know how
*weak* she is" is well placed too. Tying it all together with the
twisted chain of grieving illogic about why Willow = Tara's killer is
a fine idea. But the denoument, with her collapsing in tears *again*,
and Kennedy kissing her back to normal seems like a trite way to
resolve these issues, especially given that it's so intimately
wrapped in the hollowness bitched about above. EVS.
And meanwhile again, since I don't know where else to stick this
part, everyone who doesn't have anything else to do is worrying about
Giles being the First. The still untold tale of "Sleeper" turns
out to not have been forgotten. Well, how can you prove that he
hasn't touched anything? I think it's a little too easy to guess
that he's himself, and the whole thing has a bit too much of a
"comic bumbling sidekicks" vibe to it, but I like it okay. Up to
and including the TIRSBILA punchline of "now wait a minute-you
think I'm evil... if I bring a group of girls on a camping trip and
don't touch them?"
Meanwhile meanwhile, back to another potentially interesting plot that
doesn't totally deliver, with Buffy and Spike eventually turning to
the government for help with his problem, which turns out to be
chip-specific. The "government conspiracy" is played as a joke,
yet it ends up being more true than one might think. I'm of two
minds; on the one hand it's silly and funny ("is this actually a
flower shop, or is this one of those things where I'm supposed to play
along to show that I know it's really secret ops? Oh, maybe I
shouldn't have said that"), a bit of genre-parody. On the other, it
seems like lazy writing to wallow in and base one's plot around the
same clichés that one is making fun of. So I dunno. I will say more
one-mindedly that I'm not so thrilled to see our heroes causally head
back to the exact location of a place that's been buried for years.
Or creep boringly through the boring old locale and have their boring
arbitrary contractually obligated fight with Random Demons #813-7. In
the end Buffy's faced with a choice, but I don't know if it's
much of a suspense moment, since, knowing her, it's hard to imagine
her not choosing to free Spike. We'll see, I guess.
And Riley backs up his assertions of how much he trusts our hero to
handle things. That's kinda sweet. Although funny in theory, the
effect of his "exact words" is dulled by the fact that the phrase
doesn't sound like him at all. So yeah, I'm getting annoyed at the
mischaracterization of *Riley*. Clearly a sign that it's time to
call it a night.
So...
One-sentence summary: A strong premise squandered.
AOQ rating: Weak
[Season Seven so far:
1) "Lessons" - Good
2) "Beneath You" - Decent
3) "Same Time, Same Place" - Excellent
4) "Help" - Good
5) "Selfless" - SUPERLATIVE
6) "Him" - Bad
7) "Conversations With Dead People" - Good
8) "Sleeper" - Decent
9) "Never Leave Me" - Good
10) "Bring On The Night" - Decent
11) "Showtime" - Good
12) "Potential" - Good
13) "The Killer In Me" - Weak]
Dwayne Johnson
Don Sample
You're not alone. A lot of people kinda hated Kennedy. I'm not really
one of them. I don't see this relationship as a "great love." More
like people in a crisis sharing companionship, and grabbing some life
while they have the chance.
> And convincing the others of what's
> going on isn't the central thrust either - that's the easy part,
> but then there are much deeper issues involved. That's covered in
> one fairly entertaining scene that has its mix of worthwhile ideas
> (Willow's stubborn insistence that she must have done this to
> herself) and humor (the oddly funny moments of Spike collapsing in the
> background and no one noticing). So I like that. Nicely loaded
> concept, symbolically right.
And Andrew groping her.
> That being said, I like Amy's scenes anyway. Even if, to nitpick
> some more, we still don't know how she knew Kennedy was a potential
> Slayer, or why she'd make such a stupid and obvious slip of the
> tongue (or if it was meant to be intentional, why she'd give up her
> perfect cover to gloat).
I suspect the the First has been having some conversations with her, and
put her up to the job.
> Meanwhile meanwhile, back to another potentially interesting plot that
> doesn't totally deliver, with Buffy and Spike eventually turning to
> the government for help with his problem, which turns out to be
> chip-specific. The "government conspiracy" is played as a joke,
> yet it ends up being more true than one might think. I'm of two
> minds; on the one hand it's silly and funny ("is this actually a
> flower shop, or is this one of those things where I'm supposed to play
> along to show that I know it's really secret ops? Oh, maybe I
> shouldn't have said that"), a bit of genre-parody. On the other, it
> seems like lazy writing to wallow in and base one's plot around the
> same clichés that one is making fun of. So I dunno. I will say more
> one-mindedly that I'm not so thrilled to see our heroes causally head
> back to the exact location of a place that's been buried for years.
> Or creep boringly through the boring old locale and have their boring
> arbitrary contractually obligated fight with Random Demons #813-7. In
> the end Buffy's faced with a choice, but I don't know if it's
> much of a suspense moment, since, knowing her, it's hard to imagine
> her not choosing to free Spike. We'll see, I guess.
>
> And Riley backs up his assertions of how much he trusts our hero to
> handle things. That's kinda sweet. Although funny in theory, the
> effect of his "exact words" is dulled by the fact that the phrase
> doesn't sound like him at all. So yeah, I'm getting annoyed at the
> mischaracterization of *Riley*. Clearly a sign that it's time to
> call it a night.
There's some retconning of Spike's Initiative experience here. He talks
about having multiple experiments on the chip done on him in this
episode, but back in "The Initiative" he wakes up, escapes, and doesn't
really learn that anything has been done to him until he finds that he
can't attack Willow.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> passion and caring to this relationship that is, to say the least,
> disproportionate to what seems "earned" by basically a pretty face
> and a few flirtatious conversations. I say if Willow "kills" Tara,
> it's not because she moves on, but because she moves on to this.
how dare someone on the show aggressively pursue and court
the object of their infatuation?
kennedy is not tara nor was she intended to be
in the next episode willow is in the basement
and kennedy walks in drops her dress
and declares if she and willow do the sex
that will let kennedy get willow out of her system
so they can move on
> herself) and humor (the oddly funny moments of Spike collapsing in the
> background and no one noticing). So I like that. Nicely loaded
> concept, symbolically right.
or andrew and dawn poking at warren
> Failing to figure things out on her own, Wil turns to her friends, who
> have accepted her and can always be counted on. No, wait. She tries
> to contact the Coven, or someone who can be expected to know their
> magic. Okay, that's not right either. She goes straight to the
> Wiccan group on campus, somehow knowing that the same people will be
on the way she tells kennedy shes been trying all day to shake it
her friends wouldnt be able to help and we dont know if she contacted the coven
its possible a lot more stuff happened offscreen
and only the wicca group is onscreen
because thats what turned out to be significant
> everything handed to her, even when she tries to destroy the world. A
> bit of reflection of part of the fanbase, perhaps, since there's a
> subsection of fans who feel that way? I'd be the first to disagree
> with the anti-Willow crowd, but this doesn't sit right with me.
or perhaps youre over analyzing
amy is being hypocritical bitca acting out of jealousy
yes willow screwed up but amy does not have the moral high ground to judge her
amy is mouthing all kinds of platitudes but her actual motives are petty
to the extent that the audience is without sin let it throw the first stone
but the audience didnt introduce willow to rack
nor dose willow when willow was trying to quit
nor set a good example way back in high school with safe and responsible magics
> a fine idea. But the denoument, with her collapsing in tears *again*,
> and Kennedy kissing her back to normal seems like a trite way to
> resolve these issues, especially given that it's so intimately
> wrapped in the hollowness bitched about above. EVS.
its what kennedy called it a fairy tale ending
they kiss and live happily ever after
> And meanwhile again, since I don't know where else to stick this
> part, everyone who doesn't have anything else to do is worrying about
> Giles being the First. The still untold tale of "Sleeper" turns
> out to not have been forgotten. Well, how can you prove that he
> hasn't touched anything? I think it's a little too easy to guess
at least they can film giles touching things again
i guess you didnt think very much of andrews threat to glue things together
andrew wants to be a good guy but he still hasnt faced up to what he did wrong
theres no dorgiveness without acknowledgement you messed up
remember that it was xander that recognized the klingon love poems
and with the league of extraordinary gentleman
xander almost becomes andrews friend
until he remembers andrews a nerd and hes not anymore
and dawn and anya looking on knowingly
anya smirking becayse she knows xander is still a nerd
meow arf meow - they are performing horrible experiments in space
major grubert is watching you - beware the bakalite
there can only be one or two - the airtight garage has you neo
Apteryx
news:1159422831.8...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>Well, I'm sure everyone's guessed where this ramble is going. I
>know what "worthy of Willow" looks like, because her last two
>significant others most certainly were. I'm not seeing it in Kennedy
>yet. At all. I'm feeling the aforementioned fanboy reaction quite
>strongly, actually, so I think I kinda hate her.
Join the club. Not a particularly exclusive club. My theory on the
introduction of Kennedy was that it was to draw off the hate mail that
during seasons 5 and 6 apparently used to be directed to MT. They needed a
character fans could hate more than whiny Dawn.
>"Who you gonna call?... God, that phrase is never gonna be useable
>again, is it?" doesn't really seem like a Spike line, but it's
>funny. And I totally called Willow's appropriate "no" in
>response to "remember when things used to be nice and boring?"
Good stuff - you have to take what you can find from the weaker episodes.
>One of the things that kept me holding out hope that this episode would
>be better is that the notion of turning Willow into Warren is a pretty
>cool concept.
Dunno. Sometimes a cool concept should remain just a cool concept. I don't
think there's any way they could have made it work - unless maybe Willow
just disappeared and on her reappearance (briefly) related what had
happpened to her. Then we could have marveled at the coolness of the concept
without being confronted with the crappiness of the realisation.
>Failing to figure things out on her own, Wil turns to her friends, who
>have accepted her and can always be counted on. No, wait. She tries
>to contact the Coven, or someone who can be expected to know their
>magic. Okay, that's not right either. She goes straight to the
>Wiccan group on campus, somehow knowing that the same people will be
>there and they'll have started using real magic despite the fact that
>they were clearly going in no such direction in "Hush." As Tom
>Servo would say, "that makes a lot of... HUH?" but let's not
>dwell on that further.
Best not.
>perfect cover to gloat). But Allen's delivery shines on lines like
>the speech mentioned above, and "OK. Oh wait, I forgot. No." And
Another gem to pick out of the mire
>And meanwhile again, since I don't know where else to stick this
>part, everyone who doesn't have anything else to do is worrying about
>Giles being the First. The still untold tale of "Sleeper" turns
>out to not have been forgotten. Well, how can you prove that he
>hasn't touched anything? I think it's a little too easy to guess
>that he's himself, and the whole thing has a bit too much of a
>"comic bumbling sidekicks" vibe to it, but I like it okay. Up to
>and including the TIRSBILA punchline of "now wait a minute-you
>think I'm evil... if I bring a group of girls on a camping trip and
>don't touch them?"
Good stuff. Pretty silly, because although we've only seen Giles for a few
minutes since his return, it would be odd if none of the characters had seen
him touch anything in the time he's been back. But good fun all the same.
>And Riley backs up his assertions of how much he trusts our hero to
>handle things. That's kinda sweet. Although funny in theory, the
>effect of his "exact words" is dulled by the fact that the phrase
>doesn't sound like him at all. So yeah, I'm getting annoyed at the
>mischaracterization of *Riley*. Clearly a sign that it's time to
>call it a night.
Yep, I think that's definitely a sign :)
>So...
>One-sentence summary: A strong premise squandered.
>AOQ rating: Weak
Weak for me also. On first viewing, I think I rated this the 144th best (ie,
worst) episode. But it was noteworthy for creeping up my ratings every time
I saw it since, as I appreciated the little gems in the side stories more
and more. After I upgraded it again at the start of this year, it stood
poised to move into Decent territory if I upgraded it again when I saw it
next. But I didn't. I felt the last upgrade had been a little too far, and
nudged it down again. It's currently my 130th favourite BtVS episode, 16th
best in season 7.
--
Apteryx
Elisi
> Well, I'm sure everyone's guessed where this ramble is going. I
> know what "worthy of Willow" looks like, because her last two
> significant others most certainly were. I'm not seeing it in Kennedy
> yet. At all. I'm feeling the aforementioned fanboy reaction quite
> strongly, actually, so I think I kinda hate her.
And another one joins the Kennedy hating crowd... since she's the most
hated character on the show _ever_, not many are going to argue with
you over that one. Personally I don't mind her. And the one _good_
thing re. hooking her up with Willow is that finally Willow isn't
dating someone quiet and pliant. (Not sure that Oz could be described
as 'pliant' really, but he avoided arguments whenever possible.)
> There're a few quiet
> conversations between vampire and Slayer, who seem like they've
> achieved a level of comfort that lets them be forthcoming in their
> chats, straight-talking. You know, like they'd also seemed to be
> headed towards in S5 and again in S6 before things went horribly wrong
> each time.
Heh. Is 3rd time the lucky time? Or is Buffy doomed to badness...
Anyway, I will admit to watching this ep just for the Spike/Buffy
scenes and fastforwarding through Willow etc. Not that I don't like
Willow, it's just that her stuff is so heavy.
> Another part of the reason these parts work is that
> Marsters is especially good this week selling the pain - I could
> believe that he was in agony.
I wince every time.
> One of the things that kept me holding out hope that this episode would
> be better is that the notion of turning Willow into Warren is a pretty
> cool concept.
Finally I can recommend this vid:
http://vrya.net/ts/killer.php
I don't know if fanvids are your thing or not, but this one says more
about the Willow/Warren parallels than many essays. Download and watch,
I promise you won't be disappointed. (On the page there's also the
vidder's thoughts behind the vid, which are all very interesting. No
spoilers, although you might want to avoid the Feedback part further
down - I haven't read that bit and there might be spoilery stuff hiding
somewhere.)
Re-watching the episode myself, I was struck by a line I'd completely
forgotten:
WILLOW/WARREN: It's not a trick, it's not a glamour. I'm becoming him.
A murderous, misogynist man. I mean, do you understand what he did?
What I could do? I killed him for a reason.
"I killed him for a reason." Oh Willow, that was quite an admission -
because the reason she's implying here is that it wasn't just out of
revenge. She still thinks of Warren as more dangerous than herself, as
the greater evil. And from someone who tried to destroy the world?
That's quite something.
> And meanwhile again, since I don't know where else to stick this
> part, everyone who doesn't have anything else to do is worrying about
> Giles being the First. The still untold tale of "Sleeper" turns
> out to not have been forgotten. Well, how can you prove that he
> hasn't touched anything? I think it's a little too easy to guess
> that he's himself, and the whole thing has a bit too much of a
> "comic bumbling sidekicks" vibe to it, but I like it okay. Up to
> and including the TIRSBILA punchline of "now wait a minute-you
> think I'm evil... if I bring a group of girls on a camping trip and
> don't touch them?"
Actually there was a bit cut from the original script:
GILES
Well, I... I really don't know what
to...
(realization dawns)
Wait, let me understand. You thought
I was evil because I took a group of
young girls on a camping trip and
didn't touch them??
A beat. They take in the irony.
ANDREW
I don't get it.
:)
Anyway, I know the _premise_ is rather stupid, but what it does show
very well is how detached Giles is, and how paranoid they're all
getting. The First might not be around just at the moment, but that
doesn't mean that the fight has gone away. Because its strongest card
is to make people doubt themselves and each other.
Speaking of which, Andrew shows that he appears to have grown some.
When he sees Willow/Warren, he immediately thinks it's The First and
this is his reaction:
"No more listening. I know who you are now. I know what you made me do.
Your promises of happy fields and dancing schnauzers and being demigods
won't work on me anymore. You made me do things. Things I can never
take back. Ever."
*pats him on the back* Now lets see if it sticks.
> I'm of two
> minds; on the one hand it's silly and funny ("is this actually a
> flower shop, or is this one of those things where I'm supposed to play
> along to show that I know it's really secret ops? Oh, maybe I
> shouldn't have said that"), a bit of genre-parody.
The flowershop thing is an in-show joke that goes way back to 'What's
My Line?' Remember the whole 'Do I like shrubs?'
> One-sentence summary: A strong premise squandered.
>
> AOQ rating: Weak
And here I was, feeling pretty sure that you'd like it! Ah well. It's
sort of an odd one for me, because I really, really like the S/B parts
(even though part of the premise is lame, I don't care. What matters to
me is their interactions), and I quite like Willow's story... so I
dunno. Decent? Low Good? Hopefully someone will come along and analyse
Willow's story properly - OBS?
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 13: "The Killer In Me"
> (or "... Ken-uh-dee!")
> Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> Director: David Solomon
>
>
> know what "worthy of Willow" looks like, because her last two
> significant others most certainly were. I'm not seeing it in Kennedy
> yet. At all. I'm feeling the aforementioned fanboy reaction quite
> strongly, actually, so I think I kinda hate her.
"Hate" isn't nearly strong enough to describe how some fans felt, and
still feel, about her. There are Buffy forums where people still rant
about Kennedy. And Dawn. And The Lie. Fandom is nothing if not
persistant.
I never really hated Kennedy, but I only ever got to sort of like her.
I think she was intentionally irritating. That's my story and I'm
sticking to it.
>
> One of the things that kept me holding out hope that this episode would
> be better is that the notion of turning Willow into Warren is a pretty
> cool concept. It's also a source of yet another of the show's
> major shortcomings. Hannigan and Busch don't overlap well at all,
> and that's even before the Warren personality starts to assert
> itself. They don't seem like they're even reading for the same
> scene, let alone the same character. No matter how often we cut back
> and forth, I don't see the Willow in Warren, or vice versa.
Interesting. A lot of people said afterwards how amazing their
performances were, but I was like you. I didn't see it, except for a
few moments.
>
> That being said, I like Amy's scenes anyway. Even if, to nitpick
> some more, we still don't know how she knew Kennedy was a potential
> Slayer, or why she'd make such a stupid and obvious slip of the
> tongue (or if it was meant to be intentional, why she'd give up her
> perfect cover to gloat). But Allen's delivery shines on lines like
> the speech mentioned above, and "OK. Oh wait, I forgot. No."
Elizabeth cleaned the floor with Iyari (sp?). No contest. I'm a
long-time Amy fan, and always wished she could have been more of a
recurring character.
> And meanwhile again, since I don't know where else to stick this
> part, everyone who doesn't have anything else to do is worrying about
> Giles being the First. The still untold tale of "Sleeper" turns
> out to not have been forgotten. Well, how can you prove that he
> hasn't touched anything? I think it's a little too easy to guess
> that he's himself, and the whole thing has a bit too much of a
> "comic bumbling sidekicks" vibe to it, but I like it okay. Up to
> and including the TIRSBILA punchline of "now wait a minute-you
> think I'm evil... if I bring a group of girls on a camping trip and
> don't touch them?"
That was a really long way to go for a gag. In retrospect it seems
utterly pointless.
I liked the fight scene in the Initiative just because I thought it was
visually interesting. Ray Stella was by this point outdoing Michael
Gershman at "darking" a scene.
I laughed at "assface."
-- Mike Zeares
Ken from Chicago
"Dwayne Johnson" <aba...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:16526-45...@storefull-3314.bay.webtv.net...
>I like Willows new playmate...
>
But she's not Willowworthy.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"Mike Zeares" <mze...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1159442609.2...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
It was too rushed. While W/T happened within one season of W/O, Tara had
more screen time to be established and integrated within the group. Kennedy
got lost amidst the gaggle of Potentials.
-- Ken from Chicago
jil...@hotmail.com
fact that she was a girl. "Damn, Joss is continuing to behave as
though Willow is GAY when we all know she's really BI that man just
gives in to fan-pressure to make Willow GAY that's so pathETic! He
should have given her a BOYfriend so I could pretend that's ME!"
I did also have trouble with Willow going to the group on-campus, but
there's one thing I think you forget. Xander can accidently set books
on fire by saying the right words in Latin around them. This IS the
Hellmouth, the center of which is currently underneath the Sunnydale
High's Principal's office. Even if it wasn't Sunnydale, in this
universe of Joss', random people can do simple magic. Of course, some
of them die from the consequences of incompetance. Others of them
endanger a long-standing force for good.
You're assuming that Willow, in her long time on campus and her
relationship with Willow, never ever talked or paid any attention to
what those other girls were doing afterwards. But again, we have a
group of people who were actually studying magic. Perhaps now they are
being manipulated by Amy, a much nastier witch than she wants anyone to
know.
It has to be fanwank, because we never see it confirmed on the show,
but in my opinion Amy was approached by The First. And I think her hex
may have been working on Willow ever since she returned to Sunnydale,
causing our lovely girl's magic to do strange things when she isn't
keeping a firm hand on herself.
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 13: "The Killer In Me"
> (or "... Ken-uh-dee!")
> Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> Director: David Solomon
I replied to this once but it doesn't seem to have gone through. This
might be a repeat.
> Well, I'm sure everyone's guessed where this ramble is going. I
> know what "worthy of Willow" looks like, because her last two
> significant others most certainly were. I'm not seeing it in Kennedy
> yet. At all. I'm feeling the aforementioned fanboy reaction quite
> strongly, actually, so I think I kinda hate her.
"Hate" is not nearly strong enough to describe the reaction that
Kennedy got from some fans. And still gets. I never hated her, but I
find myself ff-ing through most of the Kennedy/Willow scenes this time.
My biggest problem with Kennedy is that Iyari Limon just isn't up to
par with the the rest of the actors.
> One of the things that kept me holding out hope that this episode would
> be better is that the notion of turning Willow into Warren is a pretty
> cool concept. It's also a source of yet another of the show's
> major shortcomings. Hannigan and Busch don't overlap well at all,
> and that's even before the Warren personality starts to assert
> itself. They don't seem like they're even reading for the same
> scene, let alone the same character. No matter how often we cut back
> and forth, I don't see the Willow in Warren, or vice versa.
There was a lot of praise for their performances, but I never really
saw it either. I mostly got "Warren" from Adam, very little "Willow."
> That being said, I like Amy's scenes anyway. Even if, to nitpick
> some more, we still don't know how she knew Kennedy was a potential
> Slayer, or why she'd make such a stupid and obvious slip of the
> tongue (or if it was meant to be intentional, why she'd give up her
> perfect cover to gloat). But Allen's delivery shines on lines like
> the speech mentioned above, and "OK. Oh wait, I forgot. No."
Remember what I said above about Limon not being up to par? Elizabeth
cleaned the floor with her in this scene. No contest. I've been a big
Amy fan for a long time, and always wished she could have been a more
recurring character.
> And Riley backs up his assertions of how much he trusts our hero to
> handle things. That's kinda sweet. Although funny in theory, the
> effect of his "exact words" is dulled by the fact that the phrase
> doesn't sound like him at all. So yeah, I'm getting annoyed at the
> mischaracterization of *Riley*. Clearly a sign that it's time to
> call it a night.
I liked the fight scene in the Initiative (there was a lot of wailing
about how it wasn't filled with in with concrete. A LOT of wailing).
In S7, director of photography Ray Stella started outdoing former DP
Michael Gershman in "darking" a scene.
Rincewind
Join the club, we have "I hate Kennedy" tee shirts.
My problem with Kennedy is she doesn't appear to have any of the qualitites
that Oz and Tara had.
The only thing she has in common with Oz is that they are both human beings
(for most of the month at least).
The only thing she has in common with Tara is that neither has a penis.
So now it appears that Willow is ready to date anyone without a penis who
will hit on her: maybe if Clem had a sister Willow would be willing to date
her too (Clem's sister would certainly like kittens, so she probably also
likes p.....).
> Trying to get past the irrational bile and break it down... First of
> all, she's not very likable; the strident take-what-I-want manner
> seems more unpleasant than endearing to me. It doesn't help that
> this episode plays her as if she's Jonathan in "Superstar,"
> always in control, an expert on the ways of the ladies, always knowing
> just the right thing to say to instantly win Willow's affections and
> trust. Skipping out on her responsibilities to hit on someone is fine,
> because it's all cute or whatever. Even when she's a little lost,
> she's always confident, assertive, and sees to the heart of
> everything the way no one else can. Bleah. I'm still waiting for
> the punchline to this joke. TKIM seems to want to ascribe a level of
> passion and caring to this relationship that is, to say the least,
> disproportionate to what seems "earned" by basically a pretty face
> and a few flirtatious conversations. I say if Willow "kills" Tara,
> it's not because she moves on, but because she moves on to this.
I have a theory that ME was trying to regain the trust of that big segment
of gay fans which had felt betrayed by Tara's death. ME needed to give a new
SO to Willow, but there was no time for a normal relationship to develop, so
they created a very very pushy character that would make things happen
before the series ended.
> Failing to figure things out on her own, Wil turns to her friends, who
> have accepted her and can always be counted on. No, wait. She tries
> to contact the Coven, or someone who can be expected to know their
> magic. Okay, that's not right either. She goes straight to the
> Wiccan group on campus, somehow knowing that the same people will be
> there and they'll have started using real magic despite the fact that
> they were clearly going in no such direction in "Hush." As Tom
> Servo would say, "that makes a lot of... HUH?" but let's not
> dwell on that further. There she meets Amy, who apologizes for her
> past sins, but turns out to be the cause of the problem. Along the way
> she gives a little monologue about how cute, sweet Willow gets
> everything handed to her, even when she tries to destroy the world.
There is one more thing that bothers me about Amy's speech:
AMY: This is not about hate. It's about power. Willow always had all the
power, long before she even knew what to do with it. Just came so easy for
her. The rest of us- we had to work twice as hard to be half as good.
This is not what we have seen in the earlier seasons: back in season 2 Amy
was already so powerful that she could do the love spell of BB&B and turn
Buffy into a rat.
And as late as season 4 Willow still complains about Amy being more powerful
than she is:
WILLOW: The only real witch here is fuzzy little Amy. She's got access to
powers I can't even invoke. (from Something Blue).
What we know is that Willow developed her power with hard work (and Tara's
help) over many years while Amy was already using it without effort back in
season 2.
> After the talk about strength, her scornful "they don't know how
> *weak* she is" is well placed too. Tying it all together with the
> twisted chain of grieving illogic about why Willow = Tara's killer is
> a fine idea. But the denoument, with her collapsing in tears *again*,
> and Kennedy kissing her back to normal seems like a trite way to
> resolve these issues, especially given that it's so intimately
> wrapped in the hollowness bitched about above. EVS.
I almost entirely agree (and if I knew what EVS means I could drop the
"almost").
> And meanwhile again, since I don't know where else to stick this
> part, everyone who doesn't have anything else to do is worrying about
> Giles being the First. The still untold tale of "Sleeper" turns
> out to not have been forgotten. Well, how can you prove that he
> hasn't touched anything? I think it's a little too easy to guess
> that he's himself, and the whole thing has a bit too much of a
> "comic bumbling sidekicks" vibe to it, but I like it okay. Up to
> and including the TIRSBILA punchline of "now wait a minute-you
> think I'm evil... if I bring a group of girls on a camping trip and
> don't touch them?"
Actually I didn't like the entire thing: the idea that nobody has hugged
Giles or seen him touch anything for 4 episodes is really too stupid to be
funny (don't these people ever eat together?).
I seem to remember that Joss himself commented on the thing saying something
like "it seemed like a funny idea at the time but it went on too long".
> And Riley backs up his assertions of how much he trusts our hero to
> handle things. That's kinda sweet. Although funny in theory, the
> effect of his "exact words" is dulled by the fact that the phrase
> doesn't sound like him at all. So yeah, I'm getting annoyed at the
> mischaracterization of *Riley*.
Welcome to the second half of season 7...
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: A strong premise squandered.
>
> AOQ rating: Weak
Another one where I agree: it's definitely Weak.
Rincewind.
--
Lines you'll never hear on Buffy:
WILLOW: Guess what guys! I'm straight again! I just looked at Kennedy and
thought "If this is all I can get, might as well go straight!". Isn't it
great.
vague disclaimer
"jil...@hotmail.com" <jil...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Actually, many people's issues with Kennedy seemed to stem from the
> fact that she was a girl.
..with the brass-bound audacity to go after what she wants.
> It has to be fanwank, because we never see it confirmed on the show,
> but in my opinion Amy was approached by The First.
Could be. Or maybe she's just a bad girl with an ear to the ground.
--
Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
Sam
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> And meanwhile again, since I don't know where else to stick this
> part, everyone who doesn't have anything else to do is worrying about
> Giles being the First. The still untold tale of "Sleeper" turns
> out to not have been forgotten. Well, how can you prove that he
> hasn't touched anything? I think it's a little too easy to guess
> that he's himself, and the whole thing has a bit too much of a
> "comic bumbling sidekicks" vibe to it, but I like it okay. Up to
> and including the TIRSBILA punchline of "now wait a minute-you
> think I'm evil... if I bring a group of girls on a camping trip and
> don't touch them?"
>
I've always strongly suspected that this was the case of the writers
veering away from the plot they intended because the fans figured out
the Shocking Plot Twist almost immediately. If you watch the first
couple episodes after Giles shows up in Sunnydale, you'll note that
they are very carefully setting up the reveal that he actually was
killed by that Bringer, and is now the First. For one thing, they very
carefully stage every scene with Giles in it to prevent him from ever
touching anyone or anything. For another, he is presented as very
subtlely giving wrong advice, and arguing that the First can't be
fought.
But most tellingly, look at the bit where Buffy is climbing out of the
hole in the ground, trying to escape the Ubervamp as the sun comes up.
First of all, Giles is at the hole... and doesn't try to help her out.
But more than that, look how they frame the shot -- with the sun coming
up directly behind Giles... who casts no shadow whatsoever, causing the
sunlight to fall directly onto the Ubervamp's face and driving it back
underground.
The thing is, at the time, everyone on the internet noticed all this
stuff immediately and worked out the big surprise. So they decided not
to do it -- much to the detriment of the season, I think. Imagine the
power of the reveal as they initially concieved it. Not only is Giles
dead, but now Anthony Stewart Head gets to play the embodiment of all
evil.
Instead, we got this, because if they couldn't surprise everyone, they
saw no point in doing it. (See also: Crack Magic in season 6, which
IIRC has been at least halfway confirmed as being invented at the last
minute because everyone had already worked out that Willow's Descent to
Darkness was going to be the plot that season.)
--Sam
hayes62
> Well, I'm sure everyone's guessed where this ramble is going. I
> know what "worthy of Willow" looks like, because her last two
> significant others most certainly were. I'm not seeing it in Kennedy
> yet. At all. I'm feeling the aforementioned fanboy reaction quite
> strongly, actually, so I think I kinda hate her.
>
> Trying to get past the irrational bile and break it down... First of
> all, she's not very likable; the strident take-what-I-want manner
> seems more unpleasant than endearing to me. It doesn't help that
> this episode plays her as if she's Jonathan in "Superstar,"
> always in control, an expert on the ways of the ladies, always knowing
> just the right thing to say to instantly win Willow's affections and
> trust. Skipping out on her responsibilities to hit on someone is fine,
> because it's all cute or whatever. Even when she's a little lost,
> she's always confident, assertive, and sees to the heart of
> everything the way no one else can. Bleah. I'm still waiting for
> the punchline to this joke. TKIM seems to want to ascribe a level of
> passion and caring to this relationship that is, to say the least,
> disproportionate to what seems "earned" by basically a pretty face
> and a few flirtatious conversations. I say if Willow "kills" Tara,
> it's not because she moves on, but because she moves on to this.
>
little like WttH Buffy in her lack of shyness and predilection for
fruity drinks. This really didn't strike me as Willow moving on to
her next great love. More her being a little taken by the idea that
anyone other than Tara might see anything in her (their relationship
did verge on the unhealthy in some ways). Also that she'd reached the
stage in her mourning of being willing to give things at least a
(desultory) try.
>
> Meanwhile, Spike's having headaches again. This plot-let starts off
> well, with everyone relaxing in the absence of the (off-screen) gaggle
> of teen Chosen. (Oh, by the way, "and then, apparently, someone told
> them that the vision quest consists of me driving them to the desert,
> doing the Hokey Pokey until a spooky Rasta-mama Slayer arrives and
> speaks to them in riddles." Heehee.) There're a few quiet
> conversations between vampire and Slayer, who seem like they've
> achieved a level of comfort that lets them be forthcoming in their
> chats, straight-talking. You know, like they'd also seemed to be
> headed towards in S5 and again in S6 before things went horribly wrong
> each time. Another part of the reason these parts work is that
> Marsters is especially good this week selling the pain - I could
> believe that he was in agony.
>
Interestingly before they get distracted by the migraine to end all
migraines Buffy seems fairly convinced that the triggers
non-operational, it just needs confirming that it's gone.
>
> One of the things that kept me holding out hope that this episode would
> be better is that the notion of turning Willow into Warren is a pretty
> cool concept. It's also a source of yet another of the show's
> major shortcomings. Hannigan and Busch don't overlap well at all,
> and that's even before the Warren personality starts to assert
> itself. They don't seem like they're even reading for the same
> scene, let alone the same character. No matter how often we cut back
> and forth, I don't see the Willow in Warren, or vice versa. But
> it's still a good concept. And convincing the others of what's
> going on isn't the central thrust either - that's the easy part,
> but then there are much deeper issues involved. That's covered in
> one fairly entertaining scene that has its mix of worthwhile ideas
> (Willow's stubborn insistence that she must have done this to
> herself) and humor (the oddly funny moments of Spike collapsing in the
> background and no one noticing). So I like that. Nicely loaded
> concept, symbolically right.
>
The timing in that scene is really excellent it's panicky and funny
like good screwball should be. Opinions vary about how well Hannigan
and Busch carry off the job of being each other, it worked pretty well
for me but I'm not so attuned to the finer points of Willowness.
> Failing to figure things out on her own, Wil turns to her friends, who
> have accepted her and can always be counted on. No, wait. She tries
> to contact the Coven, or someone who can be expected to know their
> magic. Okay, that's not right either. She goes straight to the
> Wiccan group on campus, somehow knowing that the same people will be
> there and they'll have started using real magic despite the fact that
> they were clearly going in no such direction in "Hush."
> That being said, I like Amy's scenes anyway. Even if, to nitpick
> some more, we still don't know how she knew Kennedy was a potential
> Slayer, or why she'd make such a stupid and obvious slip of the
> tongue (or if it was meant to be intentional, why she'd give up her
> perfect cover to gloat).
I think these two things might be connected. Amy knows about Kennedy
because she's been checking up on Willow or sensed her being in
trouble once the hex cut in. I could see her doing something to draw
Willow to her location so she could gloat or Willow sensing the source
of her 'glamour.'
Willow not wanting to talk to her friends or the coven about her
betrayal of Tara's memory makes sense to me. Also she knows (although
the audience at this point doesn't) that the spell has something to
with Tara and the coven was where they first met. Maybe she though she
could use that in some way.
But Allen's delivery shines on lines like
> the speech mentioned above, and "OK. Oh wait, I forgot. No." And
> best of all for both content and delivery is the matter-of-fact "the
> hex I cast lets the victim's subconscious pick the form of their
> punishment. It's always better than anything I can come up with."
> After the talk about strength, her scornful "they don't know how
> *weak* she is" is well placed too. Tying it all together with the
> twisted chain of grieving illogic about why Willow = Tara's killer is
> a fine idea. But the denoument, with her collapsing in tears *again*,
> and Kennedy kissing her back to normal seems like a trite way to
> resolve these issues, especially given that it's so intimately
> wrapped in the hollowness bitched about above. EVS.
I think Willow largely solved the problem herself by naming it. Once
that had happened the kiss was more like the mechanics of the spell. I
think it works for me because when they're walking back to the house
and Kennedy's talking about tea it doesn't seem romantic anymore.
Kennedy seems a little humbled by what she's gotten herself into and
almost compassionate.
>
> And Riley backs up his assertions of how much he trusts our hero to
> handle things. That's kinda sweet. Although funny in theory, the
> effect of his "exact words" is dulled by the fact that the phrase
> doesn't sound like him at all.
Maybe what he really called him wasn't suitable for prime time TV. He
is back in the army now.
Whatever the reason I like this episode but it seems somehow less than
the sum of its parts. There may just be too many parts.
Elisi
Mike Zeares wrote:
> That was a really long way to go for a gag. In retrospect it seems
> utterly pointless.
The gag was not the point.
Malsperanza
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 13: "The Killer In Me"
Welcome to Plothole Central.
> I know what "worthy of Willow" looks like, because her last two
> significant others most certainly were. I'm not seeing it in Kennedy
> yet. At all. I'm feeling the aforementioned fanboy reaction quite
> strongly, actually, so I think I kinda hate her.
*pats the Arbitrar*
There-there. I think the trick with Kennedy is to squint past the
execution to the good intentions of the writers. They wanted Willow to
have a new romantic partner, because *love* is the final element that
rescues her from her terrible past. Kennedy is therefore a plot bunny
whose role is to give Willow new confidence in herself, to help her in
the final stage of recovery. That new love interest can't be a Tara
clone and can't be a guy... Kennedy, I think, was conceived as the most
oppositest possible to Tara. Picture Tara; now identify the traits
least like her (hot, macho, sexy-broad, self-confident, from a wealthy
and established family, fast-talking, aggressive, and did I mention
hot? As in: attractive to male viewers as well as lesbians?) It's
interesting that she's young, ambitious, and (for all her posturing)
committed to the fight in a way that the other Potentials (hereafter
referred to as Teh Gaggle) are mostly not.
The signal that the character was not going to rise above her formulaic
role is her name. I mean... Kennedy? How silly can we get? Now, if her
name had been oh, I dunno, Roosevelt, or even Adelaide Stevenson...
That said, I don't hate Kennedy so much. Tara is a hard act to follow,
and Kennedy may be no more than Rebound!Girl. Let's hope that in a
couple of episodes Willow dumps her for an extremely cool young
professor of medieval history who is a Grade 1 sorceress.
The biggest problem for me with this episode is that it is really four
episodes crammed together. Yes, I grasp the concept of an A-story and a
B-story. But this episode has 3 or 4 A-stories, none of them properly
developed. The Willow-Warren-Kennedy story is potentially brilliant and
should have played out over several episodes. I didn't mind the failure
of Hannegan and Busch to render each other well--not nearly as well as
the Faith/Buffy switch, which Gellar and Duschku did so nicely. But
it's a harder match, and I was willing to buy it for the sake of the
coolness of the concept. I really wanted this idea explored much more
deeply, for all the implications it presented. So, frustrated much on
that score.
The Giles/First story was so perfunctory and so quickly resolved that
it never read as anything but an obvious red herring. It existed in
order to
a) remind us that all the characters potentially have a "killer in
me"--not only the Gagglettes, but also the main characters, whom we
have been somewhat ignoring lately. Yeah, we get it;
and b) to remind us that all three "suspect" characters may be
harboring the First, so that one cannot trust one's nearest companions
fully. Yeah, we got that too. This story line might have been
interesting if it had been extended in small snippets over many
episodes, gradually building. But since the premise was so easily
disproved the minute anyone touched Giles, that would not have been
plausible. And the underlying point--that if we were looking at
First!Giles, that would mean that real Giles was dead--not a small
matter, but one that none of the Scoobies seems particularly focused
on.
And then there's the Spike-Buffy-Initiative story...
I am enjoying the Spike-Buffy interactions more and more as the season
progresses. This is the one relationship that is being given sufficient
time and space to develop thoughtfully and interestingly. Plus, it's
funny. Plus, it's sexy. So lots to like there. But here too a plotline
that should have taken a couple of episodes to unfold is crammed into
about 30% of one.
And now we get to the plotholes, with the Amy story.
I still can't figure out why Amy and her entire wicca group would put
so much energy into punishing Willow for... what, exactly? Willow
rescued Amy from rathood as soon as she could. Doesn't the coven have
something better to do with its time? (I guess not, since they've been
sitting in that room for about 2 years.) It's not as if they ever gave
a, er, rat's ass about Tara in the first place. This might have worked
if Amy had somehow turned out to be a minion of the First, but as far
as we can tell, the First doesn't even know about her. So it's just
random private spite and maliciousness, introduced for
less-than-heartfelt misdirection purposes. I would have expected this
kind of highschoolishness from Harmony, not Amy, who is now in her 20s
and a powerful witch in her own right. She's a good character who could
be used to more effect than this, especially as we move inexorably
toward a showdown between Good and Evol that will (presumably) require
many of the characters to take sides once and for all. So perhaps this
is just the show's way of reminding us that she's there.
> Meanwhile meanwhile, back to another potentially interesting plot that
> doesn't totally deliver, with Buffy and Spike eventually turning to
> the government for help with his problem, which turns out to be
> chip-specific. [snip] I will say more
> one-mindedly that I'm not so thrilled to see our heroes casually head
> back to the exact location of a place that's been buried for years.
> Or creep boringly through the boring old locale and have their boring
> arbitrary contractually obligated fight with Random Demons #813-7. In
> the end Buffy's faced with a choice, but I don't know if it's
> much of a suspense moment, since, knowing her, it's hard to imagine
> her not choosing to free Spike. We'll see, I guess.
This could have been a great sequence. What must it mean to Spike to
return to the source of his humiliation and emprisonment? What are his
feelings about the chip now? After all, getting it implanted is what
led him to seek out his soul. And what does it mean to Buffy, walking
through the darkness with her ex-lover, into the deep places Beneath,
and so close to the Hellmouth? And what does the Initiative (perhaps
reconstituted, perhaps merely a normal spy unit now) think of Spike.
All good lines of thought with repercussions for the larger Good v.
Evil story; all resolved in 2 lines of flippant dialogue.
And BTW, wouldn't all those corpses be long since skeletal by now?
My rating: Irritating as hell. Full of, um, wasted Potential.
~Mal
Rowan Hawthorn
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>> threads.
>>
>>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Seven, Episode 13: "The Killer In Me"
>
>
>
> so much energy into punishing Willow for... what, exactly?
The Wicca group didn't know anything about it. We don't know why Amy is
bothering with the "Recovering Magick-holic" cover - maybe she's being
pressured by someone else we haven't seen, maybe she's just using them
as a convenient source of power that she can tap into to keep herself
charged up - but it's pretty obvious that they didn't have a clue what
she's been up to. Like Tara said, once they saw a *real* witch (or
two,) they sorta ran the other way. Guess there was a big difference
between "clearing their chakras" and casting glamours that can change a
person into someone else...
> Willow
> rescued Amy from rathood as soon as she could. Doesn't the coven have
> something better to do with its time? (I guess not, since they've been
> sitting in that room for about 2 years.) It's not as if they ever gave
> a, er, rat's ass about Tara in the first place. This might have worked
> if Amy had somehow turned out to be a minion of the First, but as far
> as we can tell, the First doesn't even know about her. So it's just
> random private spite and maliciousness,
Not quite so random; remember Willow giving Amy her walking papers at
the end of "Doublemeat Palace?" Apparently Amy holds a grudge (which
would have been more obvious if they hadn't cut the line from the
shooting script in which Amy *tells* Kennedy:
KENNEDY: What did you do to her?
AMY: What, to Willow? Oh. Just your standard Penance Malediction is all.
KENNEDY: Penance? For what, kissing me?
Amy stops, stares at Kennedy. Gets it. A smile creeps over her face.
AMY: Wait, seriously? It happened when she... (laughing to herself)
Nah, I planted the spell months ago after that whole "end of the world"
routine... All I had to do was wait for her to punish herself. -- The
spell just took her thoughts and powers and made them manifest.
(then)
Turned out much better than I thought it would. That kiss musta been a
whopper. Nice going, you must be good.
>
> And BTW, wouldn't all those corpses be long since skeletal by now?
>
Depends on conditions inside the sealed Initiative. If the temperature
and humidity are right, it can result in partial mummification.
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Paul Hyett
:
>
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Seven, Episode 13: "The Killer In Me"
>(or "... Ken-uh-dee!")
>Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
>Director: David Solomon
>
>know what "worthy of Willow" looks like, because her last two
>significant others most certainly were. I'm not seeing it in Kennedy
>yet. At all. I'm feeling the aforementioned fanboy reaction quite
>strongly, actually, so I think I kinda hate her.
That seemed to be the prevalent attitude when S7 first aired, but I
never had any problems with Kennedy - that may have been because I was
never a big Tara fan.
--
Paul 'Charts Fan' Hyett
One Bit Shy
news:1159461822....@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I still can't figure out why Amy and her entire wicca group would put
> so much energy into punishing Willow for... what, exactly? Willow
> rescued Amy from rathood as soon as she could. Doesn't the coven have
> something better to do with its time? (I guess not, since they've been
> sitting in that room for about 2 years.) It's not as if they ever gave
> a, er, rat's ass about Tara in the first place.
I believe it's just Amy. If the wicca group contributed anything, it was
unwittingly by Amy's manipulation.
> This might have worked
> if Amy had somehow turned out to be a minion of the First, but as far
> as we can tell, the First doesn't even know about her. So it's just
> random private spite and maliciousness, introduced for
> less-than-heartfelt misdirection purposes. I would have expected this
> kind of highschoolishness from Harmony, not Amy, who is now in her 20s
> and a powerful witch in her own right. She's a good character who could
> be used to more effect than this, especially as we move inexorably
> toward a showdown between Good and Evol that will (presumably) require
> many of the characters to take sides once and for all. So perhaps this
> is just the show's way of reminding us that she's there.
I don't know what misdirection you're thinking of. Amy's spiteful. She's
jealous of Willow and has worked it up in her head to blame Willow for her
problems. So she exacts some petty revenge. Remember, Amy lost years of
her life and was already blaming Willow for that in S6.
Amy: Oh, yeah. Sharp argument you got there. Were you on the debate team? I
forget. I forgot a lot while you were failing to make me be not a rat.
(Doublemeat Palace)
Then in a burst of indulgance upon her return to human form she immediately
falls into her own addiction. (Remember her stealing magic ingredients from
Willow's room?) With Willow right by her side - all Willow's power egging
her on to prove she can keep up. (Willow, of course, would see it as Amy
pulling her in deeper. But the psychology of it is Amy proving herself to
Willow.) And then gets rejected by Willow. I don't think it's hard to
imagine her alone and bitter, spying on Willow and seeing her get all the
love in spite of doing far worse than Amy. Next step, revenge.
I think the Amy part of this episode works rather well.
OBS
vague disclaimer
Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> AMY: Wait, seriously? It happened when she... (laughing to herself)
> Nah, I planted the spell months ago after that whole "end of the world"
> routine... All I had to do was wait for her to punish herself. -- The
> spell just took her thoughts and powers and made them manifest.
> (then)
> Turned out much better than I thought it would. That kiss musta been a
> whopper. Nice going, you must be good.
I've never even noticed that. Yet another example of when a line needs
cutting it is done in such a way to vague things up.
Stephen Tempest
Well, you've done it now. Giving a Weak rating to a clearly Excellent
episode just because you don't think the wonderful Kennedy is good
enough for Willow? And to think I once respected your reviews. We've
lost the trust, man. We've lost the trust.
... Now while that may have been slightly tongue in cheek, the bit
about Kennedy wasn't. I realise I'm probably unique on the newsgroup
here - possibly unique on the entire Internet - but I really like
Kennedy. I think she's the best possible thing that could happen to
Willow at this stage of her life.
Don't get me wrong, Tara was one of my favoutite characters on the
show... eventually. Once she developed some self-respect and started
to stand up to Willow...even if it took her six months to build up the
courage. Kennedy makes it clear from day one that she's not going to
let Willow push her around. But she also clearly cares about her...
when Willow is running off in self-hate and embarrasment and the
Scoobies are letting her go, it's Kennedy that takes the initiative
and doesn't let her isolate herself from everyone again. (Frankly, I
think there are a few other characters in the cast who could do with a
Kennedy of their own...). Yes, she's pushy and tactless, but I've
never seen anything malicious in her character... she's very loyal,
optimistic and grounded in reality. She comes across as immature
sometimes, but the script makes it clear enough that she's 3 years
younger than Willow, and has led a fairly sheltered life. (Certainly
not sheltered any longer, of course)
So... here we have a new love interest for one of our leading
characters, who's full of self-confidence and energy, often rude and
pushy and prone to sarcasm, but also loyal, caring and with a
surprisingly sensitive side. Remind you of anyone else on the show?
>Then in S4, when it was time
>for our Red Witch to get not only a new relationship but a new sexual
>orientation, the show took its time with Tara, formulating not only a
>good character, but one whom the viewer could see Willow gradually and
>convincingly falling for, episode by episode. "New Moon Rising"
>didn't feel forced, it was inevitable.
Willow first meets Kennedy in episode 7.10 and in episode 7.13 they go
on their first date.
Willow first meets Tara in episode 4.10 and in episode 4.13 she's
spending the night in Tara's bedroom.
I'm really not sure you can say that season 7 is rushing things
compared to season 4...
Also, of course, the K/W relationship is certainly not a done deal at
the end of 'The Killer in Me': while it's unlikely to be as involved
or dramatic as the W/T relationship (after all, all Willow's friends
already know she's gay, so they've told that story) there's still
things they need to confront.
>Well, I'm sure everyone's guessed where this ramble is going. I
>know what "worthy of Willow" looks like, because her last two
>significant others most certainly were. I'm not seeing it in Kennedy
>yet. At all.
Don't worry. If she works hard at it, Willow should be able to make
herself worthy of Kennedy. <g>
>It doesn't help that
>this episode plays her as if she's Jonathan in "Superstar,"
>always in control, an expert on the ways of the ladies, always knowing
>just the right thing to say to instantly win Willow's affections and
>trust. Skipping out on her responsibilities to hit on someone is fine,
>because it's all cute or whatever. Even when she's a little lost,
>she's always confident, assertive, and sees to the heart of
>everything the way no one else can.
Huh? I didn't get that at all. She hardly manages to 'instantly win
Willow's affections and trust' - for at least half of the episode
Willow mostly seems annoyed with her. Many of her attempts at chat-up
lines get shot down in flames. I don't see any particular insight. (Or
did you take her spiel about "you always turn off Moulin Rouge at
chapter 32" to be a genuine deep insight into Willow's character,
rather than a guess?).
What she does have going for her is persistence, and her natural
cuteness, and the fact she's genuinely attracted to Willow - who
really isn't used to being the centre of attention like that. After
all, Oz was practically sexless until he met Veruca, and Tara was much
too shy until she and Willow were already in their relationship: when
has anybody else ever come on to Willow quite so blatantly? It's got
to be flattering for her, as well as uncomfortable. Which, funnily
enough, is how it's shown on screen...
>TKIM seems to want to ascribe a level of
>passion and caring to this relationship that is, to say the least,
>disproportionate to what seems "earned" by basically a pretty face
>and a few flirtatious conversations.
I'm not seeing the romance of the century either, you know. It's a
first date, a few sultry glances, a couple of kisses - and a
life-and-death crisis situation. Like you get when you're at war. But
you know what they say about wartime romances - a sudden flaring of
passion really wouldn't be out of character for people who think they
may be dead in a few weeks' time.
>I should mention that there are a few lines in the Willow/Kennedy
>scenes that suggest a meaning beyond the surface situation, like
>Willow's wondering why her new friend (or perhaps, anyone?) would
>like her so unquestioningly.
See above, re, it's never happened to her before in her entire life.
Why shouldn't she be a bit overwhelmed, and perhaps suspicious?
>Meanwhile, Spike's having headaches again. This plot-let starts off
>well, with everyone relaxing in the absence of the (off-screen) gaggle
>of teen Chosen.
Oh yeah, Spike's in this episode too. Forgot about him.
>Hannigan and Busch don't overlap well at all,
>and that's even before the Warren personality starts to assert
>itself. They don't seem like they're even reading for the same
>scene, let alone the same character. No matter how often we cut back
>and forth, I don't see the Willow in Warren, or vice versa.
I'm kind of neutral on this - it didn't strike me as great acting on
the level of 'Who Are You?', but I didn't think it was awful either.
Plus, don't forget that this isn't a body swap, it's a glamour. We're
not seeing Willow's soul in Warren's body: we're seeing Willow who's
been enchanted to look, sound and act like Warren. So in a way, the
actors ought to be playing themselves, not each other.
On a technical point, as I understand it they actually shot all those
scenes twice - once with Alyson and once with Adam - and then edited
between them in post-production.
>Failing to figure things out on her own, Wil turns to her friends, who
>have accepted her and can always be counted on. No, wait.
Of course she doesn't. She's humiliated, angry and ashamed. The last
thing she wants is for her friends to see her like this. Of course she
runs away from them.
It's perhaps more questionable why none of them except Kennedy chase
after her... but Buffy's got her own problem with Spike, and the
others probably feel that if it's a matter of magic Willow's the only
one who will know what to do.
>She tries
>to contact the Coven, or someone who can be expected to know their
>magic.
Maybe she was also ashamed to let them see her like this... after all,
if she thinks she's done it to herself, then it represents a failure
in the training and self-discipline they taught her. She's got to be
worried at how they'll react. Will they be disappointed in her? Will
they think she's in danger of blowing up the world again?
>Okay, that's not right either. She goes straight to the
>Wiccan group on campus, somehow knowing that the same people will be
>there and they'll have started using real magic despite the fact that
>they were clearly going in no such direction in "Hush."
She doesn't know that. She's surprised when she enters their meeting
and sees them playing with sparkly magic crystals.She also doesn't go
straight to them... as she tells Kennedy, she's been trying to break
the spell herself and failing.
> There she meets Amy, who apologizes for her
>past sins, but turns out to be the cause of the problem. Along the way
>she gives a little monologue about how cute, sweet Willow gets
>everything handed to her, even when she tries to destroy the world.
I wonder how Amy could have formed such a bitter and resentful opinion
of Willow and her circumstances?
It's almost as if she's been talking to someone who knows what Willow
did, and is deliberately putting it in the worst possible light in
order to make a powerful witch hate and resent Willow...
>That being said, I like Amy's scenes anyway. Even if, to nitpick
>some more, we still don't know how she knew Kennedy was a potential
>Slayer,
Maybe someone told her?
>or why she'd make such a stupid and obvious slip of the
>tongue
Let's talk about that.
THE FIRST, in 'Showtime':
Oops.
AMY, in 'The Killer in Me':
Oops.
(Said, you'll note, with the exact same intonation and expression)
THE FIRST, in 'Lessons':
It's not about wrong. It's about power.
AMY, in 'The Killer in Me':
This isn't about hate. It's about power.
Coincidence? First time I watched this, I was convinced that Amy
*was* The First. Does she ever touch anything during this scene? (She
certainly uses magic to send Kennedy flying when she rushes at her,
rather than let her make physical contact). Of course, that would mean
Amy had died... but what's the average life expectancy of Rack's
victims anyway?
>Tying it all together with the
>twisted chain of grieving illogic about why Willow = Tara's killer is
>a fine idea. But the denoument, with her collapsing in tears *again*,
>and Kennedy kissing her back to normal seems like a trite way to
>resolve these issues, especially given that it's so intimately
>wrapped in the hollowness bitched about above. EVS.
I liked this part. In a way, it's a return to the old season 1 - 3
metaphor device... Willow feeling she's betrayed Tara by 'letting her
be dead' turns into Willow becoming Tara's literal killer. (Although
it's a far darker and more adult subject for a metaphor than 'I slept
with my boyfriend and now he doesn't respect me anymore').
Also, re-enacting 'Seeing Red' like that was wonderful and creepy and
scary: I thought Aly's acting as she bought the gun then started
threatening Kennedy with it was extremely powerful.
As for her grief... she's faced the immediate shock of losing Tara;
she's lived with the pain of having to get through each day without
her. The horrifying and scary thing she's now learned is that she
*can* get through the day without Tara... that she can be happy not
thinking about her. That she's moved on, and Tara is now past tense.
The fact that this realisation is so devastating might strike you as
over-indulgence in grief (you're not secretly British, are you?) but
to me it's very well-observed. The kind of thing I'd expect from a
show that also gave us 'The Body'.
Kennedy kissing her might be 'fairy-tale', but that's because she sees
it that way. It's the symbolism that Willow can move on, can accept
that thre's more to life than death. That reflects on her own strength
of course... but I like the symmetry of Kennedy offering to make
Willow some tea in the final scene. It shows that this is going to be
a relationship of equals.
Emotional equals anyway. Unless Kennedy reveals hitherto-unknown
superpowers in the next episode she's never going to be Willow's equal
in terms of raw power. Crucially, though - and unlike Tara - she
refuses to let this intimidate her or change the way she treats
Willow.
It may be 'about power' - but the qeustion season 7 is posing us is
_how_ do we interact with power? How should we?
Stephen
Don Sample
> AMY: Wait, seriously? It happened when she... (laughing to herself)
> Nah, I planted the spell months ago after that whole "end of the world"
> routine... All I had to do was wait for her to punish herself. -- The
> spell just took her thoughts and powers and made them manifest.
Since Amy indicates that her spell had been active for quite some time,
it could have been responsible for the whole "Same Time, Same Place"
deal as well. That was another example of Willow's fears and doubts
manifesting themselves.
Dwayne Johnson
typed:
or perhaps youre over analyzing
amy is being hypocritical bitca acting out of jealousy yes willow
screwed up but amy does not have the moral high ground to judge her amy
is mouthing all kinds of platitudes but her actual motives are
what sums it up for me about Amy's motives.. "we had to work twice as
lili...@gmail.com
It's not just that. It's hard to explain, I'm one of those people who
didn't hate Kenedy, but for me that was mostly because she didn't
impact enough as a character to care about her either way. Her behavior
was annoying at times, but less so than that of others so I mostly just
ignored her.
(in all honesty, my least favorite potential was always Amanda. I know
she was a fave amongst most viewers. But whenever the actress opened
her mouth I wanted to shut her up cause her voice annoyed me almost as
much as AH's does)
Lore
Rowan Hawthorn
> In article <Oo6dnfZ5_PvYn4HY...@giganews.com>,
> Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> AMY: Wait, seriously? It happened when she... (laughing to herself)
>> Nah, I planted the spell months ago after that whole "end of the world"
>> routine... All I had to do was wait for her to punish herself. -- The
>> spell just took her thoughts and powers and made them manifest.
>
> Since Amy indicates that her spell had been active for quite some time,
> it could have been responsible for the whole "Same Time, Same Place"
> deal as well. That was another example of Willow's fears and doubts
> manifesting themselves.
>
Exactly, and I get the impression that was the intent, but we may never
know for sure.
Rowan Hawthorn
Yep. And as Don said, it's entirely possible (and would make perfect
sense) that the no-see-um spell in "ST, SP" was also caused by Amy's hex.
Rowan Hawthorn
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> writes:
>
> Well, you've done it now. Giving a Weak rating to a clearly Excellent
> episode just because you don't think the wonderful Kennedy is good
> enough for Willow? And to think I once respected your reviews. We've
> lost the trust, man. We've lost the trust.
>
> ... Now while that may have been slightly tongue in cheek, the bit
> about Kennedy wasn't. I realise I'm probably unique on the newsgroup
> here - possibly unique on the entire Internet - but I really like
> Kennedy.
Actually, no, I ended up in the "I like Kennedy" club, too.
> I think she's the best possible thing that could happen to
> Willow at this stage of her life.
Yes. I said a long time ago that I think it *took* someone aggressive
to give Willow the push she needed to get over Tara's death. Now,
whether or not that means they'll be "soulmates for life," well, maybe
not. But for right now, maybe that shouldn't matter, either, as long as
Kennedy can help Willow get back on her feet.
>
> Don't get me wrong, Tara was one of my favoutite characters on the
> show... eventually. Once she developed some self-respect and started
> to stand up to Willow...even if it took her six months to build up the
> courage. Kennedy makes it clear from day one that she's not going to
> let Willow push her around. But she also clearly cares about her...
> when Willow is running off in self-hate and embarrasment and the
> Scoobies are letting her go, it's Kennedy that takes the initiative
> and doesn't let her isolate herself from everyone again.
I posted a little paragraph about my take on Kennedy a while back. I
re-did it for another forum and I'm going to post it here again a little
later into the series, because there are some spoilers in it.
> (Frankly, I
> think there are a few other characters in the cast who could do with a
> Kennedy of their own...). Yes, she's pushy and tactless, but I've
> never seen anything malicious in her character...
She's certainly not the *only* character in the cast ever to have a
terminal case of foot-in-mouth disease...
>
> So... here we have a new love interest for one of our leading
> characters, who's full of self-confidence and energy, often rude and
> pushy and prone to sarcasm, but also loyal, caring and with a
> surprisingly sensitive side. Remind you of anyone else on the show?
Several Anyone Elses, actually.
>> It doesn't help that
>> this episode plays her as if she's Jonathan in "Superstar,"
>> always in control, an expert on the ways of the ladies, always knowing
>> just the right thing to say to instantly win Willow's affections and
>> trust. Skipping out on her responsibilities to hit on someone is fine,
>> because it's all cute or whatever. Even when she's a little lost,
>> she's always confident, assertive, and sees to the heart of
>> everything the way no one else can.
>
> Huh? I didn't get that at all. She hardly manages to 'instantly win
> Willow's affections and trust' - for at least half of the episode
> Willow mostly seems annoyed with her. Many of her attempts at chat-up
> lines get shot down in flames. I don't see any particular insight. (Or
> did you take her spiel about "you always turn off Moulin Rouge at
> chapter 32" to be a genuine deep insight into Willow's character,
> rather than a guess?).
Actually, I took it that that particular DVD had been getting a lot of
play in the Summers' house, and she'd just picked up on Willow's habit.
You'll notice that the rest of her lines here, ("And we like the same
things. Italian. Skate punk. Robert Parker mysteries. Fighting evil.")
are just a little hopeful fishing expedition to try and find out the
kinds of things that Willow *does* like ('cause she's wrong about almost
all of them,) and what - if anything - they might have in common.
One Bit Shy
news:hvvnh2d156smci97e...@4ax.com...
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> writes:
> ... Now while that may have been slightly tongue in cheek, the bit
> about Kennedy wasn't. I realise I'm probably unique on the newsgroup
> here - possibly unique on the entire Internet - but I really like
> Kennedy. I think she's the best possible thing that could happen to
> Willow at this stage of her life.
I like your take on Kennedy a great deal. It really draws out the strength
of the idea, and at least sometimes the execution. But there's still a core
problem to my eyes. There's just no chemistry between these two actresses
on screen.
>>I should mention that there are a few lines in the Willow/Kennedy
>>scenes that suggest a meaning beyond the surface situation, like
>>Willow's wondering why her new friend (or perhaps, anyone?) would
>>like her so unquestioningly.
>
> See above, re, it's never happened to her before in her entire life.
> Why shouldn't she be a bit overwhelmed, and perhaps suspicious?
Nobody's come onto her quite so bluntly before, but Oz and Tara both sought
her out and liked her pretty much immediately and unquestioningly. She's
had attention before. She's even had a come on before. (Remember Parker?)
I think the process of connecting has more elements, some of which are more
obvious surface things.
Like the suspicion - which is well earned. Kennedy broadcasts her sexual
orientation to everyone and acts like she's on the prowl. This "date" comes
after she's observed Willow for a while, but Kennedy was throwing out the
sexual innuendo to Willow the first day they met. To a large extent this
has to feel to Willow like Kennedy out for a conquest. As in a "mission".
(Note how Willow is put off and nearly walks away when it becomes clear that
she's the mission.) Or Kennedy rather baldly speaking of a process of
flirting - and when she's really hot getting her drunk. (You'll also note
that by the time Willow is mostly through her drink, she has indeed loosened
up.) So, yeah, Willow's suspicious of Kennedy's motivations. Doubly so
because she knows that she's not normally the object of prowlers like that.
I think this has a lot to do with Willow having trouble understanding why
Kennedy would be interested - having trouble because she doubts the
sincerity. As Willow quite rightly says, Kennedy doesn't really know her.
By the same token, though, Willow can't help but be at least a little
attracted to Kennedy. Intrigued by the idea at least sexually. In the
kitchen scene of Willow preparing the tea for Kennedy, Buffy is telling us
that the sexual vibe is already visible - before the come on - and that
Willow is quite aware of it and not entirely put off by it. Willow is,
subconsciously at least, quite ready for some hanky panky. She's just not
prepared for someone who moves that fast and boldly.
Meanwhile, Kennedy's idea of liking Willow unquestioningly (using AOQ's
phrase) is simply not caring much about Willow's details. Magic? Pffft!
It's amusing hearing Kennedy toss out the things they have in common - that
are anything but. She doesn't care. Probably because, to a significant
extent, Kennedy really is out for the conquest. One suspects that's her
rich girl heritage. And by rich, the implication is that she's far richer
than Cordelia ever was. She sees a few things about Willow that intrigue
her - and she's used to easily getting whatever intrigues her.
That doesn't necessarily make her bad, or even shallow. It just means she
reaches for things first, and then finds out what they really are. It's how
she's learned to be. Once she's with Willow we discover that she actually
does look and care. Kind of the point of chasing after her when Willow
tries to fix the problem on her own.
Anyway, I'm rambling now. The point is that I think you can overplay
Willow's own general insecurities when it comes to her wondering why Kennedy
is interested. I think it's more particular to Kennedy. How different from
Willow she is. And how much Willow is right to wonder because Kennedy
really *doesn't* know what she's getting into.
But I do think you're spot on in observing that Willow really could use
someone not so passive, not so willing to just go along with her.
>>Failing to figure things out on her own, Wil turns to her friends, who
>>have accepted her and can always be counted on. No, wait.
>
> Of course she doesn't. She's humiliated, angry and ashamed. The last
> thing she wants is for her friends to see her like this. Of course she
> runs away from them.
>
> It's perhaps more questionable why none of them except Kennedy chase
> after her... but Buffy's got her own problem with Spike, and the
> others probably feel that if it's a matter of magic Willow's the only
> one who will know what to do.
Just to expand on that a little, her old friends are currently more attuned
to her magic problem and are probably relating the Warren appearance to
that. Kennedy, on the other hand, doesn't think much of magic and senses
Willow's need for moral support apart from the magic - and is stubborn
enough to force it.
OBS
vague disclaimer
Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> vague disclaimer wrote:
> > In article <Oo6dnfZ5_PvYn4HY...@giganews.com>,
> > Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> AMY: Wait, seriously? It happened when she... (laughing to herself)
> >> Nah, I planted the spell months ago after that whole "end of the world"
> >> routine... All I had to do was wait for her to punish herself. -- The
> >> spell just took her thoughts and powers and made them manifest.
> >> (then)
> >> Turned out much better than I thought it would. That kiss musta been a
> >> whopper. Nice going, you must be good.
> >
> > I've never even noticed that. Yet another example of when a line needs
> > cutting it is done in such a way to vague things up.
>
> Yep. And as Don said, it's entirely possible (and would make perfect
> sense) that the no-see-um spell in "ST, SP" was also caused by Amy's hex.
I'd be a bit more sceptical about that. I think Willow not only knew,
but Knew with a capital nya.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 13: "The Killer In Me"
> (or "... Ken-uh-dee!")
> Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> Director: David Solomon
.
Eh, The Killer in Me. I don't publicly scorn it the way I do Beer Bad or
Wrecked. Instead, it's one of those episodes that I hardly ever think
about at all.
I actually don't hate Kennedy (which might make me a rampant
Kennedy-lover, in relative terms). Of course she's no Tara, but she
doesn't have to be. She hasn't yet shown any sign of becoming Willow's
new soul mate; she's just stepping up to be Willow's rebound girl. But
that leads to another "of course" -- if the Willow-Kennedy relationship is
just a casual low-key thing, then the amount of guilt that Willow feels
for it in TKIM is really out of proportion.
Rating the guest stars: I thought Iyari Limon was good in the early
flirtation scenes. I actually enjoyed the Bronze conversation. But
later, especially in the last scene in the back yard, she seemed to be
foundering. As for Adam Busch, I usually think he's pretty good as
Warren, but didn't really feel him as Willow-in-Warren. He just seemed
like Warren Meers trying to talk like Willow. I'll give them both a C.
Elizabeth Anne Allen was far better (though I presonally was a little
disappointed to find her ending up as a villain); she'll get an A-.
During the scene in the living room, with Spike collapsing in agony while
everyone tries to figure out W/W, it seemed like the whole episode would
dissolve into farce. This felt more than a little weird at such an
emotionally fraught moment. At least TKIM didn't go *that* route, trying
to play W/W for laughs beyond a little groping and another kindergarten
reference.
Dancing schnauzers?
One good thing about the Spike plotline was that it addressed a question
that didn't get enough attention before: How long will Spike's chip last,
and what will happen if it fails? Not to say that it was completely
ignored. I vaguely recall a couple of times when characters (probably
Xander) wondered out loud if the chip would always work, though the
details escape me. But it really should have come up every time the
Scoobies discussed Spike.
I also liked the flashlight-lit fight. And I chuckled at "ass face," even
though it really doesn't sound like the kind of insult Riley would come up
with. The officer's slightly embarrassed explanation helped make it work.
The resolution to the Giles question is probably the biggest anticlimax of
the entire series. His expression as the gang tackles him was priceless,
though. And I'm happy that he really is alive, no matter how much great
drama could have drawn from his death.
So, how to interpret that abrupt resolution? Did Kennedy's kiss break the
magic spell, storybook-fashion? Or did Willow get over her problem by
recognizing its subconscious roots and using the emotional strength she
gained from Kennedy to overcome them? I've never quite figured it out,
since I've never bothered to think much about it.
> AOQ rating: Weak
Yeah. I'm not in a forgiving mood, so I'll go with that.
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
Sam
Malsperanza wrote:
>
> The Giles/First story was so perfunctory and so quickly resolved that
> it never read as anything but an obvious red herring. It existed in
> order to
>
> a) remind us that all the characters potentially have a "killer in
> me"--not only the Gagglettes, but also the main characters, whom we
> have been somewhat ignoring lately. Yeah, we get it;
>
> and b) to remind us that all three "suspect" characters may be
> harboring the First, so that one cannot trust one's nearest companions
> fully. Yeah, we got that too. This story line might have been
> interesting if it had been extended in small snippets over many
> episodes, gradually building. But since the premise was so easily
> disproved the minute anyone touched Giles, that would not have been
> plausible. And the underlying point--that if we were looking at
> First!Giles, that would mean that real Giles was dead--not a small
> matter, but one that none of the Scoobies seems particularly focused
> on.
>
It was intended as a bit more than that, I'm almost certain. I am 99%
certain that the writers were originally planning on having Giles
actually be the First -- he died at that one cliffhanger ending, and he
was going to turn out to be the First in a Big Shocking Reveal. They
very carefully set this up in the first few episodes where he shows up
in Sunnydale, with Giles always extremely carefully (but subtlely)
presented as going out of his way not to touch anyone. His advice
ranges from useless to actually harmful, subtlely trying to convince
Buffy that resisting the First is futile.
But most notably, in the bit with the Turok-Han, when Buffy is climbing
out of the hole as the sun comes up, Giles is standing there. Not only
does he not offer a hand to help pull Buffy free, but they very
pointedly film the sun coming up *directly behind him*... and then
immediately cut to the sunlight falling, completely unimpeded by Giles'
nonexistent shadow, onto the face of the Turok-Han, driving it back
underground.
The problem was, everyone online figured it out in like ten minutes. So
they decided not to do it. Which is a shame, as it renders the
cliffhanger Harbinger axe bit completely pointless, and robs them of
what would have made the First seem like a far more terrifying villain
-- not only the reveal that it has killed her mentor and then taken on
her mentor's role for whole episodes to mess with her, but the simple,
amazing possibilities of having Anthony Stewart Head as the season's
villain.
--Sam
vague disclaimer
Stephen Tempest <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> I realise I'm probably unique on the newsgroup
> here - possibly unique on the entire Internet
Nope.
Is there any real long-term hope? Doubt it, in the end.
Would any other type of person had the remotest chance of getting
through Willow's defences? Not a hope. A Tara mkII would never have had
the bottle. And Oz mkII....er....gay now.
Willow needed someone who would see - want - seduce, without a hint of
self-doubt, or she was pretty much doomed to celibacy for the
foreseeable.
Of course, Willow's guilt would have needed to be purged at some point,
so ironically Amy ended up doing her a favour by reifying it.
> Willow first meets Kennedy in episode 7.10 and in episode 7.13 they go
> on their first date.
>
> Willow first meets Tara in episode 4.10 and in episode 4.13 she's
> spending the night in Tara's bedroom.
>
> I'm really not sure you can say that season 7 is rushing things
> compared to season 4...
Stop confusing people with facts.
> >It doesn't help that
> >this episode plays her as if she's Jonathan in "Superstar,"
> >always in control, an expert on the ways of the ladies, always knowing
> >just the right thing to say to instantly win Willow's affections and
> >trust. Skipping out on her responsibilities to hit on someone is fine,
> >because it's all cute or whatever. Even when she's a little lost,
> >she's always confident, assertive, and sees to the heart of
> >everything the way no one else can.
>
> Huh? I didn't get that at all.
Glad I wasn't the only one.
> She hardly manages to 'instantly win
> Willow's affections and trust' - for at least half of the episode
> Willow mostly seems annoyed with her.
And a couple of episodes previously she seemed more bemused.
> Of course she doesn't. She's humiliated, angry and ashamed. The last
> thing she wants is for her friends to see her like this. Of course she
> runs away from them.
I'm beginning to wonder if you and me were the only ones paying
attention in class that day...
> She also doesn't go
> straight to them... as she tells Kennedy, she's been trying to break
> the spell herself and failing.
Ditto
> As for her grief... she's faced the immediate shock of losing Tara;
> she's lived with the pain of having to get through each day without
> her. The horrifying and scary thing she's now learned is that she
> *can* get through the day without Tara... that she can be happy not
> thinking about her. That she's moved on, and Tara is now past tense.
> The fact that this realisation is so devastating might strike you as
> over-indulgence in grief (you're not secretly British, are you?) but
> to me it's very well-observed. The kind of thing I'd expect from a
> show that also gave us 'The Body'.
If I was a bird, I'd kiss you.
Did I say that out loud?
> Unless Kennedy reveals hitherto-unknown
> superpowers in the next episode
Well she is a potential....
I must admit I find the whole Kennedy-bash amusing because it sparked
one of Joss's most spectacularly dishonest pieces of commentary. But
we'll get there when we get there.
Mike Zeares
One Bit Shy wrote:
> "Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1159461822....@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> > I still can't figure out why Amy and her entire wicca group would put
> > so much energy into punishing Willow for... what, exactly? Willow
> > rescued Amy from rathood as soon as she could. Doesn't the coven have
> > something better to do with its time? (I guess not, since they've been
> > sitting in that room for about 2 years.) It's not as if they ever gave
> > a, er, rat's ass about Tara in the first place.
>
> I believe it's just Amy. If the wicca group contributed anything, it was
> unwittingly by Amy's manipulation.
Talk about your missed opportunities. They could have had a whole
Witch Queen Amy, Mistress of Pain and her Evil Yet Attractive Handmaids
Who Like To Give Each Other Backrubs And Wash Each Other's Hair And
Stuff subplot.
> I think the Amy part of this episode works rather well.
The Amy part of just about any episode works rather well.
-- Mike Zeares
Mike Zeares
Stephen Tempest wrote:
A post that's too long to quote and respond to, but I just wanted to
say that that was one of the best defenses of Kennedy I've ever read.
Well done.
I'd had those thoughts about Amy too. EAA does a great job conveying
an undercurrent of menace.
-- Mike Zeares
Stephen Tempest
>If I was a bird, I'd kiss you.
Eww.
Er, I mean thanks. Probably.
<edges away>
:)
Stephen
Michael Ikeda
news:l64o-1rj5-D41F7...@europe.isp.giganews.com:
> In article <hvvnh2d156smci97e...@4ax.com>,
> Stephen Tempest <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> I realise I'm probably unique on the newsgroup
>> here - possibly unique on the entire Internet
>
> Nope.
>
> Is there any real long-term hope? Doubt it, in the end.
>
> Would any other type of person had the remotest chance of
> getting through Willow's defences? Not a hope. A Tara mkII would
> never have had the bottle. And Oz mkII....er....gay now.
>
> Willow needed someone who would see - want - seduce, without a
> hint of self-doubt, or she was pretty much doomed to celibacy
> for the foreseeable.
Willow does seem to attract the type of Significant Other that she
needs. Right now, that's Kennedy.
>
> Of course, Willow's guilt would have needed to be purged at some
> point, so ironically Amy ended up doing her a favour by reifying
> it.
N gurzr juvpu jvyy ercrng (vaibyivat qvssrerag punenpgref) n srj
rcvfbqrf yngre.
>
>> Willow first meets Kennedy in episode 7.10 and in episode 7.13
>> they go on their first date.
>>
>> Willow first meets Tara in episode 4.10 and in episode 4.13
>> she's spending the night in Tara's bedroom.
>>
>> I'm really not sure you can say that season 7 is rushing things
>> compared to season 4...
>
> Stop confusing people with facts.
Actually Stephen isn't being entirely accurate.
Willow starts spending the night in Tara's bedroom in episode 4.12.
:)
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
vague disclaimer
"Sam" <hyperevol...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
>
> It was intended as a bit more than that, I'm almost certain. I am 99%
> certain that the writers were originally planning on having Giles
> actually be the First -- he died at that one cliffhanger ending, and he
> was going to turn out to be the First in a Big Shocking Reveal.
I'm honestly not quite sure how a Big Shocking Reveal works if the set
up turns out to be exactly what it looks like.
My brother told me about the apparent killing scene long before I saw it
(I had to wait until he had finished with the downloads) and his
immediate reaction was "Of course, they'll find some daft way to get
around it". When I got the discs I still didn't know ('cos I warned him
off spoilers), but my reaction was "Yup. Bro's right".
I think that is the reaction the writers were counting on and that they
always intended the joke as a shared in-joke (and possibly then
prompting the more attentive viewers to re-evaluate his remoteness so
far). They just overplayed it a bit.
Clairel
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 13: "The Killer In Me"
> (or "... Ken-uh-dee!")
> Writer: Drew Z. Greenberg
> Director: David Solomon
>
> character on the show. But anyone who's ever liked one of the
> regular cast on any show can empathize with what it's like when the
> writers introduce a new love interest. Some fans love seeing a
> favorite happily paired off. Others, though... well, viewers have a
> tendency to get a bit protective (and sometimes lustful, although
> that's not required) of "their" hero, and are choosy about whom
> they share him or her with. "S/he's not good enough for Willow!
> [Willow wants me so bad...]." In this particular character's case,
> the ME writers have seemed, in the past, to be aware of the potential
> problems involved in pairing her up. We've talked a bit about the
> intense and calculated effort that was made, especially in
> "Innocence," to sell then-newbie Oz to the Willow devotees and the
> W/X 'shippers. As an initially skeptical member of the former
> category, I can tell you that it worked. Then in S4, when it was time
> for our Red Witch to get not only a new relationship but a new sexual
> orientation, the show took its time with Tara, formulating not only a
> good character, but one whom the viewer could see Willow gradually and
> convincingly falling for, episode by episode. "New Moon Rising"
> didn't feel forced, it was inevitable.
>
> know what "worthy of Willow" looks like, because her last two
> significant others most certainly were. I'm not seeing it in Kennedy
> yet. At all. I'm feeling the aforementioned fanboy reaction quite
> strongly, actually, so I think I kinda hate her.
>
> all, she's not very likable; the strident take-what-I-want manner
> this episode plays her as if she's Jonathan in "Superstar,"
> always in control, an expert on the ways of the ladies, always knowing
> just the right thing to say to instantly win Willow's affections and
> trust. Skipping out on her responsibilities to hit on someone is fine,
> because it's all cute or whatever. Even when she's a little lost,
> she's always confident, assertive, and sees to the heart of
> passion and caring to this relationship that is, to say the least,
> disproportionate to what seems "earned" by basically a pretty face
> it's not because she moves on, but because she moves on to this.
>
> scenes that suggest a meaning beyond the surface situation, like
> Willow's wondering why her new friend (or perhaps, anyone?) would
> unconvinced that dropping a girlfriend out of the sky is the best way
> to tell any story going in that direction.
>
> Meanwhile, Spike's having headaches again. This plot-let starts off
> well, with everyone relaxing in the absence of the (off-screen) gaggle
> them that the vision quest consists of me driving them to the desert,
> doing the Hokey Pokey until a spooky Rasta-mama Slayer arrives and
> speaks to them in riddles." Heehee.) There're a few quiet
> conversations between vampire and Slayer, who seem like they've
> achieved a level of comfort that lets them be forthcoming in their
> chats, straight-talking. You know, like they'd also seemed to be
> headed towards in S5 and again in S6 before things went horribly wrong
> each time. Another part of the reason these parts work is that
> Marsters is especially good this week selling the pain - I could
> believe that he was in agony.
>
> again, is it?" doesn't really seem like a Spike line, but it's
> funny. And I totally called Willow's appropriate "no" in
> response to "remember when things used to be nice and boring?"
>
> One of the things that kept me holding out hope that this episode would
> be better is that the notion of turning Willow into Warren is a pretty
> cool concept. It's also a source of yet another of the show's
> major shortcomings. Hannigan and Busch don't overlap well at all,
> and that's even before the Warren personality starts to assert
> itself. They don't seem like they're even reading for the same
> scene, let alone the same character. No matter how often we cut back
> it's still a good concept. And convincing the others of what's
> going on isn't the central thrust either - that's the easy part,
> but then there are much deeper issues involved. That's covered in
> one fairly entertaining scene that has its mix of worthwhile ideas
> (Willow's stubborn insistence that she must have done this to
> herself) and humor (the oddly funny moments of Spike collapsing in the
> background and no one noticing). So I like that. Nicely loaded
> concept, symbolically right.
>
> to contact the Coven, or someone who can be expected to know their
> Wiccan group on campus, somehow knowing that the same people will be
> there and they'll have started using real magic despite the fact that
> Servo would say, "that makes a lot of... HUH?" but let's not
> past sins, but turns out to be the cause of the problem. Along the way
> she gives a little monologue about how cute, sweet Willow gets
> bit of reflection of part of the fanbase, perhaps, since there's a
> subsection of fans who feel that way? I'd be the first to disagree
> with the anti-Willow crowd, but this doesn't sit right with me.
> Hopefully this won't take too many verbal gymnastics to explain, but
> as has been established, I'm fine with the writers poking fun at
> their critics: Buffy the Nitpicker in "Goodbye Iowa," Anya the
> Spike-Hater in "Never Leave Me," etc. Two-line throwaway gags.
> This is different: it casts viewers' words as the motivation for
> someone who is, for the purposes of TKIM, a moustache-twirling villain.
> It seems mean-spirited in a way the other examples don't: "if you
> think Willow got off too easy, then you're Amy." One could argue
> that it's a way to address their argument, but it plays more like an
> attempt to use a straw-man to deflate it.
>
> some more, we still don't know how she knew Kennedy was a potential
> Slayer, or why she'd make such a stupid and obvious slip of the
> tongue (or if it was meant to be intentional, why she'd give up her
> perfect cover to gloat). But Allen's delivery shines on lines like
> best of all for both content and delivery is the matter-of-fact "the
> hex I cast lets the victim's subconscious pick the form of their
> punishment. It's always better than anything I can come up with."
> After the talk about strength, her scornful "they don't know how
> twisted chain of grieving illogic about why Willow = Tara's killer is
> a fine idea. But the denoument, with her collapsing in tears *again*,
> and Kennedy kissing her back to normal seems like a trite way to
> resolve these issues, especially given that it's so intimately
> wrapped in the hollowness bitched about above. EVS.
>
> part, everyone who doesn't have anything else to do is worrying about
> Giles being the First. The still untold tale of "Sleeper" turns
> out to not have been forgotten. Well, how can you prove that he
> hasn't touched anything? I think it's a little too easy to guess
> that he's himself, and the whole thing has a bit too much of a
> "comic bumbling sidekicks" vibe to it, but I like it okay. Up to
> and including the TIRSBILA punchline of "now wait a minute-you
> think I'm evil... if I bring a group of girls on a camping trip and
> don't touch them?"
>
> doesn't totally deliver, with Buffy and Spike eventually turning to
> the government for help with his problem, which turns out to be
> yet it ends up being more true than one might think. I'm of two
> minds; on the one hand it's silly and funny ("is this actually a
> flower shop, or is this one of those things where I'm supposed to play
> along to show that I know it's really secret ops? Oh, maybe I
> shouldn't have said that"), a bit of genre-parody. On the other, it
> seems like lazy writing to wallow in and base one's plot around the
> same clichés that one is making fun of. So I dunno. I will say more
> one-mindedly that I'm not so thrilled to see our heroes causally head
> back to the exact location of a place that's been buried for years.
> Or creep boringly through the boring old locale and have their boring
> arbitrary contractually obligated fight with Random Demons #813-7. In
> the end Buffy's faced with a choice, but I don't know if it's
> much of a suspense moment, since, knowing her, it's hard to imagine
> her not choosing to free Spike. We'll see, I guess.
>
> handle things. That's kinda sweet. Although funny in theory, the
> effect of his "exact words" is dulled by the fact that the phrase
> mischaracterization of *Riley*. Clearly a sign that it's time to
> call it a night.
>
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: A strong premise squandered.
>
> AOQ rating: Weak
>
> [Season Seven so far:
> 1) "Lessons" - Good
> 2) "Beneath You" - Decent
> 3) "Same Time, Same Place" - Excellent
> 4) "Help" - Good
> 5) "Selfless" - SUPERLATIVE
> 6) "Him" - Bad
> 7) "Conversations With Dead People" - Good
> 8) "Sleeper" - Decent
> 9) "Never Leave Me" - Good
> 10) "Bring On The Night" - Decent
> 11) "Showtime" - Good
> 12) "Potential" - Good
> 13) "The Killer In Me" - Weak]
--Surprising. I like TKIM a lot; much better than Bring on the Night,
Showtime, or for that matter STSP.
I thought the Willow-Warren transitions worked really well. Especially
Willow-Warren's line about the Aquaman underoos (spoken to Xander).
Adam Busch's delivery of that line was perfect. I don't think Gellar's
and Dushku's acting of each other's roles in season 4 was one bit
superior to the Hannigan and Busch achievements here in this episode.
AOQ, I suspect your dislike of Kennedy has led you to undervalue the
really well-done aspects of the episode. You're letting your reaction
to one thing bleed over into your reaction to another thing.
Clairel
vague disclaimer
Michael Ikeda <mmi...@erols.com> wrote:
> >> Willow first meets Kennedy in episode 7.10 and in episode 7.13
> >> they go on their first date.
> >>
> >> Willow first meets Tara in episode 4.10 and in episode 4.13
> >> she's spending the night in Tara's bedroom.
> >>
> >> I'm really not sure you can say that season 7 is rushing things
> >> compared to season 4...
> >
> > Stop confusing people with facts.
>
> Actually Stephen isn't being entirely accurate.
>
> Willow starts spending the night in Tara's bedroom in episode 4.12.
It's like I always said: they took FAR too long getting down to it in
S7.
Rowan Hawthorn
> In article <UOGdnaLHFPFbu4HY...@giganews.com>,
> Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> vague disclaimer wrote:
>>> In article <Oo6dnfZ5_PvYn4HY...@giganews.com>,
>>> Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> AMY: Wait, seriously? It happened when she... (laughing to herself)
>>>> Nah, I planted the spell months ago after that whole "end of the world"
>>>> routine... All I had to do was wait for her to punish herself. -- The
>>>> spell just took her thoughts and powers and made them manifest.
>>>> (then)
>>>> Turned out much better than I thought it would. That kiss musta been a
>>>> whopper. Nice going, you must be good.
>>> I've never even noticed that. Yet another example of when a line needs
>>> cutting it is done in such a way to vague things up.
>> Yep. And as Don said, it's entirely possible (and would make perfect
>> sense) that the no-see-um spell in "ST, SP" was also caused by Amy's hex.
>
> I'd be a bit more sceptical about that. I think Willow not only knew,
> but Knew with a capital nya.
Certainly, it was *Willow's* magic that *caused* the "ST, SP" spell; it
was probably also *Willow's* magic that actually caused the glamour in
"TKIM" - but *triggered* by Amy's hex.
Of course, if you mean that you think Willow deliberately hid from the
others in "ST, SP", that's a possibility too. I kind of doubt it,
because she was too confused and upset by not being able to find them.
On the third hand, Willow's been known to lie to herself before...
One Bit Shy
news:1159422831.8...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 13: "The Killer In Me"
Wherein we see terrific concepts fall short. Kind of my attitude for much
of the season. The spirit is right, even outstanding, but execution is
lacking.
> Well, I'm sure everyone's guessed where this ramble is going. I
> know what "worthy of Willow" looks like, because her last two
> significant others most certainly were. I'm not seeing it in Kennedy
> yet. At all. I'm feeling the aforementioned fanboy reaction quite
> strongly, actually, so I think I kinda hate her.
It's funny. I'm at the point with the series that I barely noticed that
Kennedy and Willow were getting together this episode. The other parts of
the show seem more important. But, of course, at the time, this was way
bigger than anything else
I could list a ton of things that are wrong with Kennedy, but I think the
one that actually matters is that there isn't good chemistry between the
characters on screen. The actresses don't sell the connection. If they
had, most of the issues would melt away. Because they don't, it's almost
impossible to get past.
The idea of the connection though is excellent IMO. I like it from the
point of view of simply having someone (who's not set up as a terrible
person like Parker) simply hot for her and hitting on her. And I like it
from the point of view of having Willow in a relationship with someone who
refuses to be the passive partner. I think Willow could really afford some
time with someone who could take her in hand, so to speak. That's something
absent from her life - including her parents.
Stephen Tempest's post on Kennedy's virtues is really good. I think I'll
leave most of that to him. My main difference is that I still don't think
they perform well together. And I think there is initially rather more of
Kennedy just after some action.
> Trying to get past the irrational bile and break it down... First of
> all, she's not very likable; the strident take-what-I-want manner
> seems more unpleasant than endearing to me.
Rich kid. Really rich kid. Sleeps in a different wing of her house than
her sister.
I think it's supposed to be off putting - certainly not endearing. But it's
not supposed to be mean either. She's not Cordelia. More like
uncomfortably bold. The impulse is to push her away, but still think it's
possible she may be worth knowing better.
> It doesn't help that
> this episode plays her as if she's Jonathan in "Superstar,"
> always in control, an expert on the ways of the ladies, always knowing
> just the right thing to say to instantly win Willow's affections and
> trust. Skipping out on her responsibilities to hit on someone is fine,
> because it's all cute or whatever. Even when she's a little lost,
> she's always confident, assertive, and sees to the heart of
> everything the way no one else can. Bleah. I'm still waiting for
> the punchline to this joke.
Hmmm. The way I think of it is that she finds out what things are like by
having them and then examining them. Rich girl, you know. She seems to
approach relationships that way too. But, again, not mean. It's just how
she knows how to live life. I don't think she shows all that much
expertise - unless it's expertise in being bold. In the Bronze she
demonstrates very little insight into Willow I think. Makes wild stabs at
things in common that aren't. Her idea of what she likes about Willow is
freckles and the way she talks.
There's not much there besides hitting on her. Kennedy's best argument is
that it's fun getting to know a girl. Eventually Willow gets comfortable
enough with the idea (and can't seem to find anything particularly bad about
Kennedy) to get a little turned on by it. And Willow is, after all,
releasing a burden - as the episode soon enough shows us.
> TKIM seems to want to ascribe a level of
> passion and caring to this relationship that is, to say the least,
> disproportionate to what seems "earned" by basically a pretty face
> and a few flirtatious conversations. I say if Willow "kills" Tara,
> it's not because she moves on, but because she moves on to this.
I don't think passion and caring even starts until after Warren shows up.
It's a different process than we've seen previously. It's a not terribly
meaningful start - a goodtime night - that unexpectedly turns weird. Not
because of anything particular between them, but because of a spell and the
implication of Willow letting go of Tara. Just a kiss, remember. That's
all it took.
Then - and only then - does Kennedy start showing some real insight,
recognizing that Willow needs support beyond the mechanics of reversing some
kind of magic. And later being smart enough and quick enough to recognize
that Willow is talking about killing Tara - not Warren. And finally making
the real connection in that last kiss. A moment not nearly as powerful as
the Hush moment with Tara, but not wildly different in concept either. It
wasn't special until then. But the shared experience of something pretty
heavy forged a bond that made it special. Made them look at each other a
whole lot more seriously.
> I should mention that there are a few lines in the Willow/Kennedy
> scenes that suggest a meaning beyond the surface situation, like
> Willow's wondering why her new friend (or perhaps, anyone?) would
> like her so unquestioningly. Let's just say that I remain
> unconvinced that dropping a girlfriend out of the sky is the best way
> to tell any story going in that direction.
I talk about this in Stephen's post. But I'll add that they didn't drop
Kennedy out of the sky. (Tara fell out of the sky a lot more than Kennedy
did.) They've attempted to show something coming a couple times now. I
don't think setup is the problem. Chemistry, however...
> Meanwhile, Spike's having headaches again. This plot-let starts off
> well, with everyone relaxing in the absence of the (off-screen) gaggle
> of teen Chosen. (Oh, by the way, "and then, apparently, someone told
> them that the vision quest consists of me driving them to the desert,
> doing the Hokey Pokey until a spooky Rasta-mama Slayer arrives and
> speaks to them in riddles." Heehee.)
Very funny line. Poor SMG evidently is losing her voice here. (And some
elsewhere in the episode, but not so pronounced.) I think it was very
considerate of the production to give her something to sip on during the
scene. (SMG will have a cold or something again. Must be a real nuisance
working with that.)
> There're a few quiet
> conversations between vampire and Slayer, who seem like they've
> achieved a level of comfort that lets them be forthcoming in their
> chats, straight-talking. You know, like they'd also seemed to be
> headed towards in S5 and again in S6 before things went horribly wrong
> each time. Another part of the reason these parts work is that
> Marsters is especially good this week selling the pain - I could
> believe that he was in agony.
The Buffy/Spike scenes at home are the real highlight of the episode as a
number have commented on. It's the intimacy of them without the romance
element - though I think the romantic past always gives these moments an
edge.
I don't think it's quite the late S5/early S6 feeling though. I think back
to the scene in Never Leave Me of Buffy stoically feeding the blood to
insane Spike. And the scene in Potential where Buffy hurts Spike's ribs and
just pulls up Spike's shirt to see how hurt he is without a thought. And
now talking about what a relief it is to have all those squalling kids out
of the house. This kind of casual intimacy strikes me as beyond friendship.
Buffy is acting like Spike's wife.
I don't think Spike is quite there himself, but he might be catching up.
There may be a little of this married quality in the way they handle the
chip failing. Or maybe it's something else. I'm not sure. Whatever it is,
I like the way they hold it together for each other, staying calm,
collected, not panicked, when the deeper fear must have been that the chip
was killing Spike. Again, a kind of intimacy in relationship that feels
beyond friendship, but not romantic.
It's a little comical thinking of Buffy leaping past the messy affair stuff
she doesn't want to think about (as we saw in Potential) to cope with the
lingering feelings by taking on the role of wife. And a little sweet. And
little weird. I'm not entirely certain what the show is trying to depict
here - perhaps the marriage analogy is just my way of making sense of it.
But the thing is, that even though Spike has been the obviously dependent
one this season, I think I'm seeing a lot of mutual dependency in what's
going on with them. Buffy isn't just helping Spike. She's holding onto
him. The way she's helping Spike has the ring of commitment to it. Maybe
even a touch of desperation - like it's Spike who somehow keeps Buffy
grounded. Maybe a little like Dawn was Buffy's anchor in S5, though I
suppose she would expect a great deal more from Spike.
> One of the things that kept me holding out hope that this episode would
> be better is that the notion of turning Willow into Warren is a pretty
> cool concept.
A very cool concept IMO. This should be a special episode. Transformative
like Selfless. It's supposed to be the big mid-season moment for Willow
where she can finally move past the issues around Tara and Warren and
finally really concentrate on what the new Willow will be. But I think it
falls seriously short in several ways.
> It's also a source of yet another of the show's
> major shortcomings. Hannigan and Busch don't overlap well at all,
> and that's even before the Warren personality starts to assert
> itself. They don't seem like they're even reading for the same
> scene, let alone the same character. No matter how often we cut back
> and forth, I don't see the Willow in Warren, or vice versa. But
> it's still a good concept.
Yes it is - and sometimes the source of some very powerful images. Probably
most notably Willow buying and carrying the gun. Then holding it just like
Warren in Seeing Red. But I think it gets very mucked up in the switching.
They absolutely do not pull off the kind of effect we got from Buffy/Faith
in Who Are You? I see little evidence that they really tried. But, OK,
that's hard and not absolutely necessary for the device. If you look at the
performances in isolation, they're pretty decent. Most of Adam Busch's
performance I think is rather good actually - but only as Warren. The
problem is that most of the dialog is written to a specific persona (usually
Willow's) without regard to the face shown - which switches back and forth
with no logic that I can discern. It really fractures the feel, and
sometimes the flow of the conversations, often undermining the emotional
content.
That's one problem, but not the biggest IMO.
> And convincing the others of what's
> going on isn't the central thrust either - that's the easy part,
> but then there are much deeper issues involved. That's covered in
> one fairly entertaining scene that has its mix of worthwhile ideas
> (Willow's stubborn insistence that she must have done this to
> herself) and humor (the oddly funny moments of Spike collapsing in the
> background and no one noticing). So I like that. Nicely loaded
> concept, symbolically right.
Yes, this is the Willow/Warren dialog scene that works the best. (The
images of Willow with the gun are still my favorite.) Probably because it
doesn't rely so much on Willow/Warren, but rather on everybody else's
reaction. I love the way Dawn and Andrew keep poking at Warren. And Andrew
grabbing Willow's breasts is pretty funny too.
The best part for me, though, is Andrew's reaction to seeing Warren.
Andrew: No more listening. I know who you are now. I know what you made me
do. Your promises of happy fields and dancing schnauzers and being demigods
won't work on me anymore.
...
You made me do things. Things I can never take back. Ever.
Dancing schnauzers. Heh. That line cracks me up. Anyway, this sure looks
to me like something significant from Andrew. Last episode we saw how he
was starting to really care for the people around him in the Summers
household. Here, besides evidencing resentment at what The First did to
him, we start to see recognition of reality - by actively rejecting the
false images and false promises that had consumed him not so long ago....
Not bad, Andrew, but methinks it's still not quite that easy.
I also like Spike collapsing in the background - with one ignored call to
Buffy. There is a comical quality to it - but it's not really played up for
laughs. It just sort of happens while chaos reigns. And then the scene
eventually resolves to the more serious business of dealing with a very sick
Spike. It's a nice flow. And again shows Buffy (for the umpteenth time in
this series) trying to cope with too much input.
> Failing to figure things out on her own, Wil turns to her friends, who
> have accepted her and can always be counted on. No, wait. She tries
> to contact the Coven, or someone who can be expected to know their
> magic. Okay, that's not right either. She goes straight to the
> Wiccan group on campus, somehow knowing that the same people will be
> there and they'll have started using real magic despite the fact that
> they were clearly going in no such direction in "Hush." As Tom
> Servo would say, "that makes a lot of... HUH?"
I think you're overcomplicating that. She doesn't want her friends to see
her like this (she said so) and definitely doesn't want to call The Coven
because this is like some kind of relapse or something to what she's deeply
ashamed of. Killing Warren is the worst thing she ever did, and now she's
wearing his face like the ultimate scarlet letter. She doesn't want to be
seen like that and doesn't want to call The Coven to essentially say, "I've
failed. I've turned into Warren."
But she does try to fix it herself. And when that fails she tries finding
someone anonymous with magic powers. She doesn't expect to find the wicca
group actively performing magic (I think that's shown), but she might find
someone in the group who really knows magic. After all, that's where she
found Tara.
On another level it's also just right for her to somehow be drawn to Amy.
She's the source of the problem and Amy would also naturally be drawn
towards Willow to see the effects of her curse. Whether there's actually a
mystical explanation for it or not, in this mystical context I don't think
it adds to the drama to explain it.
> but let's not
> dwell on that further. There she meets Amy, who apologizes for her
> past sins, but turns out to be the cause of the problem. Along the way
> she gives a little monologue about how cute, sweet Willow gets
> everything handed to her, even when she tries to destroy the world. A
> bit of reflection of part of the fanbase, perhaps, since there's a
> subsection of fans who feel that way? I'd be the first to disagree
> with the anti-Willow crowd, but this doesn't sit right with me.
I don't know what awareness the writers had of fan attitude when writing
this. They certainly have shown awareness before. (As in The First
commenting on Spike looking better than Andrew with his shirt off.) But if
it's there, I don't see it getting in the way, because I think it makes
perfect sense for Amy to feel that way. This is a spiteful and jealous Amy
seeking revenge.
She also is feeding a general seasonal theme (it's about the power) and
Willow's insecurity about deserving redemption. Maybe adding a little to
generally divisive thoughts running around everybody. (One theory, of
course, is that Amy is being directed by The First. Maybe. But I don't
think it's necessary - and we don't see it. Amy seems to have sufficient
motivation on her own. And BtVS has quite commonly reinforced seasonal
themes from multiple directions. Lines like she gives don't have to come
from The First.)
> That being said, I like Amy's scenes anyway. Even if, to nitpick
> some more, we still don't know how she knew Kennedy was a potential
> Slayer, or why she'd make such a stupid and obvious slip of the
> tongue (or if it was meant to be intentional, why she'd give up her
> perfect cover to gloat).
Maybe she's been spying on Buffy. Or maybe The First told her. <shrug> I
don't think of it as extraordinary knowledge. There's an army of Potentials
staying at Buffy's house. Anyone looking that direction is going to see
them. Being a rather powerful witch herself, she probably has ways of
finding out who they are.
As for the slip of the tongue, however it happened, she doesn't seem to care
enough about it being secret to work at keeping it.
> But Allen's delivery shines on lines like
> the speech mentioned above, and "OK. Oh wait, I forgot. No." And
> best of all for both content and delivery is the matter-of-fact "the
> hex I cast lets the victim's subconscious pick the form of their
> punishment. It's always better than anything I can come up with."
> After the talk about strength, her scornful "they don't know how
> *weak* she is" is well placed too.
Amy is another highlight of the episode for me. Part of what keeps it
Decent.
> Tying it all together with the
> twisted chain of grieving illogic about why Willow = Tara's killer is
> a fine idea.
Yes, as far as that goes. But here's the really big problem I have with
this episode. That doesn't go near far enough. This episode really should
be examining the Willow/Warren parallel and finally settling something about
Willow's own amoral nature and relationship to power. I don't say should in
the sense of writers being obligated to go somewhere I want, but because
they pretty much blasted open that door by putting Warren's face on Willow
and a gun in her hand. It's appalling to me that all they could get out of
it in the end was Willow being upset that she can't stay true to Tara alone
long after she's dead.
That's what her subconscious most thinks deserves punishment?
I can't express enough how disappointed this leaves me with this episode -
one that I think should have been a great one.
Just think what they could have done with the power theme alone. Willow and
Warren, two brilliant techno-geeks, a little short of ethical grounding, and
playing with power beyond them. But one deliberately goes down a criminal
path, while the other chooses to join the great fight against evil. Yet
both end up consumed by their power in the worst of ways. As in it's about
the power itself, not just intentions. It comes with a price beyond what
either could have conceived until it was paid. In the end neither just
Willow nor just Warren can wield that kind of power. But they can't run
away from it either - something Willow still is struggling with. (Something
else Warren could represent is Willow's inevitable death if she doesn't find
another way.) Willow recognizing herself as no different than Warren might
get her thinking in terms of not trying so hard to hang onto Willow and more
on what having/being the power requires her to be.
Or maybe the show could build off her little speech where she concludes
there's a reason she killed Warren. Not a terribly promising conclusion in
itself. But perhaps it could be used to develop the notion of
metaphorically kill her old self (who's not so different from Warren) so
that someone truly new could be born.
Or maybe a different flavor a different direction. But that's the kind of
thing we ought to be discussing here. What we get seems horribly wasted.
Still, for a little while I really liked the ride.
Shop Keeper: So, same model as last time? How'd that work out for you?
Willow/Warren: You'd be amazed.
> But the denoument, with her collapsing in tears *again*,
> and Kennedy kissing her back to normal seems like a trite way to
> resolve these issues, especially given that it's so intimately
> wrapped in the hollowness bitched about above. EVS.
I don't much care for the actual way it's filmed - and Kennedy kissing
Warren is sooo yucky. But I don't mind the idea. It closes the sequence
with a kiss, just as it was started. The act isn't magic in itself - at
either end - though it feels like it to both. (Part of what cements their
connection. Willow does appreciate magical connections.) It's a kind of
symbolic act that triggers first the subconscious guilt and then
subconscious release, which is what controls the bounds of the curse. When
Willow's subconscious stops beating on Willow, so does the magic. Kind of
elegant actually I think.
> And meanwhile again, since I don't know where else to stick this
> part, everyone who doesn't have anything else to do is worrying about
> Giles being the First. The still untold tale of "Sleeper" turns
> out to not have been forgotten.
Still untold. Or one might say, still belabored. This bit isn't really
bad, but it felt just a little clumsy. And the whole Sleeper thing is being
stretched out longer than it deserves. Another good idea that doesn't seem
to play as good as it should. Nice joke at the end though.
> Meanwhile meanwhile, back to another potentially interesting plot that
> doesn't totally deliver, with Buffy and Spike eventually turning to
> the government for help with his problem, which turns out to be
> chip-specific. The "government conspiracy" is played as a joke,
> yet it ends up being more true than one might think. I'm of two
> minds; on the one hand it's silly and funny ("is this actually a
> flower shop, or is this one of those things where I'm supposed to play
> along to show that I know it's really secret ops? Oh, maybe I
> shouldn't have said that"), a bit of genre-parody. On the other, it
> seems like lazy writing to wallow in and base one's plot around the
> same clichés that one is making fun of. So I dunno. I will say more
> one-mindedly that I'm not so thrilled to see our heroes causally head
> back to the exact location of a place that's been buried for years.
> Or creep boringly through the boring old locale and have their boring
> arbitrary contractually obligated fight with Random Demons #813-7.
<sigh> So the part of the episode that started out so strongly ends up
fizzling a bit. That makes just about every story in the episode fall short
of concept.
I don't mind the idea of Spike returning to the source of his great change -
if they had actually done something with it. If the demon slay was supposed
to somehow metaphorically represent the chip's death - well, that sure would
be obtuse.
Here I suspect the writers properly identified the end of the chip as a big
deal. And came up with a good and very appropriate idea of making it
Buffy's choice in the end. But then made the mistake of believing the
expression required a bunch of pomp and circumstance. I think they should
have cut to the chase fast. The abruptness of that would have served it
well. (They even try to show Buffy in a stew because she had to make the
decision right then. But after the weary slog to that point, it's awfully
hard to sell the notion of anything being a rush.)
> So...
> One-sentence summary: A strong premise squandered.
> AOQ rating: Weak
I'm extremely critical about this episode because of all the things it could
be. Yet, at the same time I must acknowledge it's ability to excite my
recognition of that potential. The episode does get me thinking about a
whole lot of things from Buffy as wife to Willow/Warren parallels. I can't
ignore that.
Plus it has several rather nice scenes - Amy, early Spike/Buffy, the whole
gang seeing Warren, and especially Willow with the gun - a chilling image
for me.
So I end up with a Decent - a fairly high Decent.
I just wish it was the Excellent it should have been.
OBS
One Bit Shy
>
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>> "Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1159461822....@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > I still can't figure out why Amy and her entire wicca group would put
>> > so much energy into punishing Willow for... what, exactly? Willow
>> > rescued Amy from rathood as soon as she could. Doesn't the coven have
>> > something better to do with its time? (I guess not, since they've been
>> > sitting in that room for about 2 years.) It's not as if they ever gave
>> > a, er, rat's ass about Tara in the first place.
>>
>> I believe it's just Amy. If the wicca group contributed anything, it was
>> unwittingly by Amy's manipulation.
>
> Talk about your missed opportunities. They could have had a whole
> Witch Queen Amy, Mistress of Pain and her Evil Yet Attractive Handmaids
> Who Like To Give Each Other Backrubs And Wash Each Other's Hair And
> Stuff subplot.
The road to perdition leads through a bake sale.
>> I think the Amy part of this episode works rather well.
>
> The Amy part of just about any episode works rather well.
Yeah, I remember jumping at the flash of a nude Amy when Willow unwittingly
de-ratted her for a moment. It doesn't take much to make her a highlight,
huh?
OBS
One Bit Shy
news:1159440306....@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> And here I was, feeling pretty sure that you'd like it! Ah well. It's
> sort of an odd one for me, because I really, really like the S/B parts
> (even though part of the premise is lame, I don't care. What matters to
> me is their interactions), and I quite like Willow's story... so I
> dunno. Decent? Low Good? Hopefully someone will come along and analyse
> Willow's story properly - OBS?
Well, I do talk about it. Not terribly favorably though. It's a big
disappointment to me.
OBS
Malsperanza
Misdirection in the sense that the viewer expects the Warren/Willow
thing to be another First Evil trick because the FE has been doing all
that bodysnatching & this looks like another version of that. But it
turns out to have an unrelated source, which has no bearing (so far) on
the Big Bad and its Impending Doom. It's just our ol' friend Amy who
just happens to have been thinking of Willow a while back and feeling
spiteful about something that happened in the past. I call that
misdirection on the part of the writers. They try to justify it by
suggesting that Amy's curse was cast a while ago but didn't happen to
take effect until now because Willow hadn't done anything in the
romance department to make herself feel guilty about Tara, and Amy's
curse was connected to a feeling that Willow was responsible for Amy's
ratness, which was sort of similar to Willow's feeling that she was
responsible for Tara's death and/or was forgetting her too soon and all
of that was triggered because Kennedy showed up because Kennedy was a
Potential... etc.
I also liked Amy the character, and there's no reason why she shouldn't
resurface now, in the middle of everything else that's going on. But
the fact that her curse looked so very similar to the FE's games and
then turned out to be completely unrelated bugged me.
~Mal
Ian Galbraith
[snip]
> everything the way no one else can. Bleah. I'm still waiting for
> the punchline to this joke. TKIM seems to want to ascribe a level of
> passion and caring to this relationship that is, to say the least,
> disproportionate to what seems "earned" by basically a pretty face
> and a few flirtatious conversations.
Its a rebound relationship nothing more nothing less.
[snip]
> "Who you gonna call?... God, that phrase is never gonna be useable
> again, is it?" doesn't really seem like a Spike line, but it's
> funny. And I totally called Willow's appropriate "no" in
> response to "remember when things used to be nice and boring?"
> One of the things that kept me holding out hope that this episode would
> be better is that the notion of turning Willow into Warren is a pretty
> cool concept. It's also a source of yet another of the show's
> major shortcomings. Hannigan and Busch don't overlap well at all,
> and that's even before the Warren personality starts to assert
> itself. They don't seem like they're even reading for the same
> scene, let alone the same character. No matter how often we cut back
> and forth, I don't see the Willow in Warren, or vice versa.
I have exactly the opposite opinion, IMHO they did it very well.
[snip]
> That being said, I like Amy's scenes anyway. Even if, to nitpick
> some more, we still don't know how she knew Kennedy was a potential
> Slayer, or why she'd make such a stupid and obvious slip of the
> tongue (or if it was meant to be intentional, why she'd give up her
> perfect cover to gloat). But Allen's delivery shines on lines like
> the speech mentioned above, and "OK. Oh wait, I forgot. No." And
> best of all for both content and delivery is the matter-of-fact "the
> hex I cast lets the victim's subconscious pick the form of their
> punishment. It's always better than anything I can come up with."
> After the talk about strength, her scornful "they don't know how
> *weak* she is" is well placed too. Tying it all together with the
> twisted chain of grieving illogic about why Willow = Tara's killer is
> a fine idea. But the denoument, with her collapsing in tears *again*,
> and Kennedy kissing her back to normal seems like a trite way to
> resolve these issues, especially given that it's so intimately
> wrapped in the hollowness bitched about above. EVS.
Its metaphorically saying that Willow's emotional connection to people is
what will save her.
[snip]
> So...
> One-sentence summary: A strong premise squandered.
> AOQ rating: Weak
I rate it a good. I think you've missed the point of the episode. Here is
what I wrote about it on another newsgroup way back when:
"The Willow story was very good and Spike's story was a bit of a
parallel but they should have got rid of the Giles stuff, pure filler.
Without it, and filling out the other threads more this episode would
have been a great one.
It was basically about the destructive power of guilt, and how it
holds people back preventing them from moving on. It was primarily
about Willow's guilt over Tara, not killing Warren as it initially
appeared. There's no reason why Willow should feel guilty over Warren,
some people aren't built that way. I think Spike's story was a
parallel to this with the chip symbolically representing the guilt
within Spike for what he did as a vampire. The chip does function as a
sort of conscience after all.
The episode was more than just about the guilt though. By having
Willow turn into Warren they drew parallels between the 2, parallels
that still exist because of Willow's undeveloped conscience, she could
still turn into someone like Warren if she isn't careful. The episode
is suggesting that Willow will have a constant struggle with her dark
side because of this. However it does conclude that what saves Willow
is her emotional connection to other people.
I think there is some regret within Willow that she can't feel guilt
over Warren, that perhaps this side of her has been walled off with
her killing of Warren, because she clearly wanted to feel guilt over
Warren, she just didn't."
--
You can't stop the signal
Malsperanza
It would have been brave, but a bit odd, for Giles to be killed so
early in s7, and I wonder how long the story could have sustained a
Giles/First without it becoming terribly awkward. But it's an
intriguing idea. There is a theme in BtVs that death comes rather
casually and abruptly--we see it most clearly in Joyce's death. No
grand dramatic buildup, no deathbed speech, nothing romantic about it.
Killing Buffy's Watcher just at the beginning of what is being billed
as her greatest test would have been a pretty fierce thing to do, and I
suspect it might have distracted from the story too much. But I can see
the outlines of how it would have worked in these episodes.
~Mal
One Bit Shy
OK. Different vantage points. I have to chuckle a little because it didn't
even occur to me that it might be The First that's responsible until I saw
someone write about it sometime back. (On first view I immediately went
with Willow somehow doing it to herself - much as Willow thinks.) But now
I'm not certain that it's not. (Though I don't think it has to be.) Maybe
I've been misdirected. Just a little late. LOL
Mostly I think the series has always been quite free at drawing parallels
between the seemingly unrelated and re-enforcing messages from any and all
sources - right down to repeated phrases.
OBS
Malsperanza
One Bit Shy wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1159422831.8...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Seven, Episode 13: "The Killer In Me"
>
> Wherein we see terrific concepts fall short. Kind of my attitude for much
> of the season. The spirit is right, even outstanding, but execution is
> lacking.
>
>
> > Well, I'm sure everyone's guessed where this ramble is going. I
> > know what "worthy of Willow" looks like, because her last two
> > significant others most certainly were. I'm not seeing it in Kennedy
> > yet. At all. I'm feeling the aforementioned fanboy reaction quite
> > strongly, actually, so I think I kinda hate her.
>
> It's funny. I'm at the point with the series that I barely noticed that
> Kennedy and Willow were getting together this episode. The other parts of
> the show seem more important. But, of course, at the time, this was way
> bigger than anything else
>
> I could list a ton of things that are wrong with Kennedy, but I think the
> one that actually matters is that there isn't good chemistry between the
> characters on screen. The actresses don't sell the connection. If they
> had, most of the issues would melt away. Because they don't, it's almost
> impossible to get past.
Yeah, I think that's it. I actually didn't see a lot of sexual
chemistry between Willow and Tara either, but there was a very nice
rhythm between the actors on other levels--friendship, deep affection,
humor. They were very believable as a domestic couple. With Kennedy and
Willow I found myself being distracted by how much lipstick Kennedy was
wearing and the odd choice of drinks with colored-paper umbrellas and
fruit, which didn't seem in Kennedy's character, and so on.
Romantic chemistry is such a subjective thing. I didn't see it between
Buffy and Angel either, but I accept that a lot of other people did.
The *lack* of chemistry most of the time between Buffy and Riley was
done well--they always seemed almost on the verge of being electric but
the spark kept dying. For my money; Spike has chemistry with pretty
much everything on two legs, plus lampposts and parked cars, but I'm
willing to believe that not everyone sees it.
And overall, the couple that sold me most completely as a romantic pair
in the series was Willow and Oz. Go figure.
But the lack of zing between Willow and Kennedy is so palpable that it
makes their scenes together look rather dutiful.
~Mal
~Mal
Don Sample
"Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I also liked Amy the character, and there's no reason why she shouldn't
> resurface now, in the middle of everything else that's going on. But
> the fact that her curse looked so very similar to the FE's games and
> then turned out to be completely unrelated bugged me.
I wouldn't be so sure that they're completely unrelated. How did Amy
know that Kennedy was a Potential? Where did that bit of information
come from? This little bit of sniping from the shadows, working away at
everyone's guilt and fear, is just the sort of thing that the First does
best.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Mike Zeares
> >
> > The Amy part of just about any episode works rather well.
>
> Yeah, I remember jumping at the flash of a nude Amy when Willow unwittingly
> de-ratted her for a moment. It doesn't take much to make her a highlight,
> huh?
I'll be in my bunk.
-- MZ
Don Sample
"Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> It would have been brave, but a bit odd, for Giles to be killed so
> early in s7, and I wonder how long the story could have sustained a
> Giles/First without it becoming terribly awkward.
They already tried to sustain the doubt for too long. It really was
unbelievable that he could have lasted 10 minutes in that house without
getting any hugs. Every other time he came back, after being away for
any time, they were all over him.
Malsperanza
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> Season Seven, Episode 13: "The Killer In Me"
snipping to get to this:
> In the end Buffy's faced with a choice, but I don't know if it's
> much of a suspense moment, since, knowing her, it's hard to imagine
> her not choosing to free Spike.
Perhaps, but either way, it's one more responsibility falling solely on
Buffy, for which she can expect little sympathy or support from her
friends. She's already taken on a kind of parental responsibility for
Spike, Andrew, and the Gagglettes, in addition to Dawn.
I think the other suspense aspect of the chip question is: Will Buffy
indeed be the one to decide, or will Spike? The show puts the hard
decision in Buffy's hands (and on her shoulders) because that's what
the show always does to Buffy. But Buffy is quite capable of asking
Spike to choose for himself, which would put the burden of consequences
on him, not her.
~Mal
Don Sample
"Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Is Spike in a position to be able to chose, right now? He's lying on an
operating table with his head opened up. The last doc might have
operated on him while he was conscious, but with the chip making him
convulse in pain at random intervals, I doubt if this one did.
vague disclaimer
Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> vague disclaimer wrote:
> > In article <UOGdnaLHFPFbu4HY...@giganews.com>,
> > Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> vague disclaimer wrote:
> >>> In article <Oo6dnfZ5_PvYn4HY...@giganews.com>,
> >>> Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> AMY: Wait, seriously? It happened when she... (laughing to herself)
> >>>> Nah, I planted the spell months ago after that whole "end of the world"
> >>>> routine... All I had to do was wait for her to punish herself. -- The
> >>>> spell just took her thoughts and powers and made them manifest.
> >>>> (then)
> >>>> Turned out much better than I thought it would. That kiss musta been a
> >>>> whopper. Nice going, you must be good.
> >>> I've never even noticed that. Yet another example of when a line needs
> >>> cutting it is done in such a way to vague things up.
> >> Yep. And as Don said, it's entirely possible (and would make perfect
> >> sense) that the no-see-um spell in "ST, SP" was also caused by Amy's hex.
> >
> > I'd be a bit more sceptical about that. I think Willow not only knew,
> > but Knew with a capital nya.
>
> Certainly, it was *Willow's* magic that *caused* the "ST, SP" spell; it
> was probably also *Willow's* magic that actually caused the glamour in
> "TKIM" - but *triggered* by Amy's hex.
Yeah, I could buy into that. It would also mean that Spike wasn't he
only one with a "trigger". Naq rira Jbbq raqrq hc univat bar.
vague disclaimer
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
> > There're a few quiet
> > conversations between vampire and Slayer, who seem like they've
> > achieved a level of comfort that lets them be forthcoming in their
> > chats, straight-talking. You know, like they'd also seemed to be
> > headed towards in S5 and again in S6 before things went horribly wrong
> > each time. Another part of the reason these parts work is that
> > Marsters is especially good this week selling the pain - I could
> > believe that he was in agony.
>
> The Buffy/Spike scenes at home are the real highlight of the episode as a
> number have commented on. It's the intimacy of them without the romance
> element - though I think the romantic past always gives these moments an
> edge.
>
> I don't think it's quite the late S5/early S6 feeling though. I think back
> to the scene in Never Leave Me of Buffy stoically feeding the blood to
> insane Spike. And the scene in Potential where Buffy hurts Spike's ribs and
> just pulls up Spike's shirt to see how hurt he is without a thought. And
> now talking about what a relief it is to have all those squalling kids out
> of the house. This kind of casual intimacy strikes me as beyond friendship.
> Buffy is acting like Spike's wife.
I think that is adding a layer that just is not there. Buffy is acting
like Spike is her pet project.
In another show she could be the hard-but-fair vet who slaughters the
entire herd out of fear of Anthrax, while holding the angry farmer at
bay - and then tenderly nurses little Jimmy's pet huskie back to health
when everyone else is saying "put the mutt down".
Trouble is, she does seem to think her pet project is more important
than anything else.
hayes62
vague disclaimer wrote:
> In another show she could be the hard-but-fair vet who slaughters the
> entire herd out of fear of Anthrax, while holding the angry farmer at
> bay - and then tenderly nurses little Jimmy's pet huskie back to health
> when everyone else is saying "put the mutt down".
>
And thinking about the Buffy/Spike S6 relationship in terms of that
metaphor is a veritable world of Ew.
Sam
vague disclaimer wrote:
> In article <1159484899....@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
> "Sam" <hyperevol...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm honestly not quite sure how a Big Shocking Reveal works if the set
> up turns out to be exactly what it looks like.
>
Keep in mind that most of the people not reading online speculation
probably hadn't put together the bit about Giles being the First -- I
know I didn't notice until somebody here pointed out that he was never
touching anything.
> My brother told me about the apparent killing scene long before I saw it
> (I had to wait until he had finished with the downloads) and his
> immediate reaction was "Of course, they'll find some daft way to get
> around it". When I got the discs I still didn't know ('cos I warned him
> off spoilers), but my reaction was "Yup. Bro's right".
>
But that's what they would be subverting if they had actually gone with
what I am still convinced was their original plan, and had Giles be the
First -- they didn't find some daft way around it. Giles actually was
killed, and is really most sincerely dead.
> I think that is the reaction the writers were counting on and that they
> always intended the joke as a shared in-joke (and possibly then
> prompting the more attentive viewers to re-evaluate his remoteness so
> far). They just overplayed it a bit.
It isn't played as an in-joke in the first couple episodes where he's
back, though. They are very careful never to draw any attention to the
fact that he doesn't touch anyone. It's all done with careful scene
staging and coincidence -- he doesn't shy away from hugs, for instance.
A potential just happens to get in the way every time. And the bit
about Giles not casting a shadow seems really pretty ironclad to me.
Circa "Bring on the Night", Giles was dead and the First.
Then the internet worked out the trick, and they shied off. (Again.)
vague disclaimer
"hayes62" <hay...@tesco.net> wrote:
ithangyoooo
I'm here for the season :)
vague disclaimer
"Sam" <hyperevol...@gmail.com> wrote:
> vague disclaimer wrote:
> > In article <1159484899....@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
> > "Sam" <hyperevol...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I'm honestly not quite sure how a Big Shocking Reveal works if the set
> > up turns out to be exactly what it looks like.
> >
>
> Keep in mind that most of the people not reading online speculation
> probably hadn't put together the bit about Giles being the First
That is a huge assumption. I read it as The First in Lessons" and the
only online I was involved in was related to S6 (showing on the BBC a
year late as usual).
> -- I
> know I didn't notice until somebody here pointed out that he was never
> touching anything.
>
> > My brother told me about the apparent killing scene long before I saw it
> > (I had to wait until he had finished with the downloads) and his
> > immediate reaction was "Of course, they'll find some daft way to get
> > around it". When I got the discs I still didn't know ('cos I warned him
> > off spoilers), but my reaction was "Yup. Bro's right".
> >
>
> But that's what they would be subverting if they had actually gone with
> what I am still convinced was their original plan, and had Giles be the
> First -- they didn't find some daft way around it. Giles actually was
> killed, and is really most sincerely dead.
>
> > I think that is the reaction the writers were counting on and that they
> > always intended the joke as a shared in-joke (and possibly then
> > prompting the more attentive viewers to re-evaluate his remoteness so
> > far). They just overplayed it a bit.
>
> It isn't played as an in-joke in the first couple episodes where he's
> back, though. They are very careful never to draw any attention to the
> fact that he doesn't touch anyone. It's all done with careful scene
> staging and coincidence -- he doesn't shy away from hugs, for instance.
> A potential just happens to get in the way every time. And the bit
> about Giles not casting a shadow seems really pretty ironclad to me.
> Circa "Bring on the Night", Giles was dead and the First.
>
> Then the internet worked out the trick, and they shied off. (Again.)
The trouble is, I'm not even slightly convinced about the shadow thing.
And the bit where Giles conspicuously got Annabel to get the books was -
well, it wasn't quite 'bitch is gonna get what she deserves' clunkiness,
but was in the same class of 'OMG! LOOK OVER THERE!' showiness.
By this stage in its development the show had got pretty shameless about
yanking the fanboy's chains. Cyhf, sbe vg gb jbex lbhe jnl, V guvax gurl
jbhyq unir arrqrq NFU zber ninvynoyr (naq nf vg vf lbh pna frr gur
ohqtrg orvat fcha bhg).
Jung gurl jrer nvzvat sbe vf jung gurl qvq: *tbbq* Tvyrf qvq fbzrguvat
gung jnf orlbaq gur cnyr sbe Ohssl (vzb ragveryl haqrefgnaqnoyr gunaxf
gb Ohssl'f fghcvqvgl, ohg gung'f n qvssrerag vffhr) naq n jrqtr jnf
qevira orgjrra gurz.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> about Giles not casting a shadow seems really pretty ironclad to me.
they get shadows wrong all the time
meow arf meow - they are performing horrible experiments in space
major grubert is watching you - beware the bakalite
there can only be one or two - the airtight garage has you neo
One Bit Shy
news:l64o-1rj5-494C4...@europe.isp.giganews.com...
The wife analogy is surely incomplete - just the closest I can think of to
describe it. But no, what you say is nothing at all akin to what I'm trying
to point at. It's not merely the care and tenderness or pursuit of a
project. The casual intimacy exhibited (again, not romantic intimacy) is an
unthinking, unconscious kind that reminds me of how married people act. The
stand out element of Buffy pulling Spike's shirt up in Potential isn't her
concern about his ribs; rather it's her not giving a thought to pulling up
his shirt. She's caught off by Spike's reaction and that of the watching
Potentials - who all take it entirely different.
I can't say with any certainty what the show is going for in the depiction
of their relationship during this period. (And a little birdie tells me
they'll be dealing with something different soon enough.) Perhaps it's
founded on the idea that they had been too close to each other in their S6
affair for the residue of it not affect how they act when they're together
now. So they can consciously avoid the suggestion of stirring up the
romance again, but can't avoid the unconscious intimacies around the edges.
Maybe. But the net effect is that Buffy at least looks to me like what's
left is acting like a wife.
There's also a dependency/trust thing going on. Spike, being the obviously
needy one for the moment, is dependent on Buffy and has totally turned his
care over to her - trusting in her. But that's just a superficial imbalance
of the moment. The reverse is being built too. Buffy is almost totally
invested now in trusting Spike. Removing the chip is a risky act of faith
in him. Naq gryy zr nsgre gur arkg rcvfbqr gung fur qbrfa'g arrq uvz - ba n
crefbany yriry, abg whfg nf qrzba svtugre. If and when Buffy needs propping
up, who would she count on? Isn't that already becoming obvious?
None of this is to say that Spike isn't a project for her too - nor that she
doesn't have a colder purpose in mind, such as making Spike her weapon.
She's still The Slayer. Whether it's a more important project to her than
anything else is harder to say. Mad Spike and captured Spike were directly
tied into The First's line of attack. Dealing with The First meant dealing
with Spike. And the chip was a matter of immediate urgency. By appearance
it was killing him. So we haven't seen all that much room to move when it
comes to priorities - at least not after deciding helping Spike was worth
doing.
It still could be a project with inflated importance though. If so, for
what reason other than it being personal for her? I don't see how that
refutes my way of looking at it.
OBS
Malsperanza
Don Sample wrote:
> In article <1159499327.7...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> "Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > It would have been brave, but a bit odd, for Giles to be killed so
> > early in s7, and I wonder how long the story could have sustained a
> > Giles/First without it becoming terribly awkward.
>
> They already tried to sustain the doubt for too long. It really was
> unbelievable that he could have lasted 10 minutes in that house without
> getting any hugs. Every other time he came back, after being away for
> any time, they were all over him.
I agree. That's the problem with the premise that the First's avatars
can't be touched, which was needed in order to maintain the important
idea that the FE is an abstraction, not a fightable monster. Either
they should have postponed Giles's return til later, or killed a
different character. As it happens, I prefer Giles not to be dead
because V guvax vg'f zber vagrerfgvat gung uvf bja synjf (naq Ohssl'f)
yrnq gb gur evsg orgjrra gurz. Gung'f npghnyyl zber va xrrcvat jvgu ubj
gur Svefg jbexf.
~Mal
Malsperanza
Vf Fcvxr'f yvsr zber inyhnoyr va gur svtug guna nal bs gur Cbgragvnyf?
Ohssl fnlf (yngre) jul fur guvaxf fb, naq vf cebira evtug, ab?
~Mal
vague disclaimer
"Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> ~Zny
Frggvat nfvqr gung, rira vs gehr, gurer vf ab cbffvoyr jnl fur pbhyq
xabj gung, vg vfa'g gehr - fur vf jebat. Naq vg vf ure jebatarff gung
yrnqf gb gur terng bhg-puhpx.
Vg jnf ure ernyvfngvba gung *rirelobql* unq gb or tvira n funer va 'gur
cbjre' gung jba gur qnl. Jvgubhg Jvyybj gb perngr gur cbgragvny nezl naq
gur cbgragvny nezl gb jva gur onggyr, Fcvxr jbhyq arire unir orra va n
cbfvgvba qb 'qb gur pyrna hc' naq fnpevsvpr uvzfrys pbirevat gur
rinphngvba.
Fb, ab.
Don Sample
Bring on the Night, in which we first saw Giles/Maybe the First aired on
December 17.
The script that was handed over to production for "The Killer in Me" is
dated December 9. "First Date"'s script is dated December 16. In both
of these scripts Giles not being the First is played as a joke.
So, you're saying that they somehow psychically read the future
audiences minds, and changed what they were doing with Giles while they
were writing those scripts.
As for Giles' shadow:
1) The First's manifestations *do* have shadows. They'd be spotted
in seconds if they didn't. Anyone with any experience in working with
special effects will tell you that dropping people into scenes, without
shadows, just screams "FAKE!" to nearly everyone who watches it.
2) You can see Giles' shadow in several scenes.
Elisi
Now that isn't actually true. She takes a risk when she decides to help
him in 'Sleeper', yes, but there's more to it. From 'Amends':
"Maybe this evil did bring you back, but if it did, it's because it
needs you. And that means that you can hurt it."
If Spike is important to The First, he's also important to her. And
Buffy has never taken the easy way out when one of her group was in
danger. Remember that she traded Willow for the Mayor's box, when
common sense dictated that destroying the box was by far the safer
option.
Not to mention the fact that the battle with The First is mostly about
people's souls. Why do you think it was/is so concerned with Andrew?
hayes62
novyvgvrf sbe pbireg bcf jnf jura vg cergraqrq gb or Rir. Cebonoyl gur
terngrfg fhpprff vg unq jnf jura vg npgrq guebhtu Ebova Jbbq gb
cerpvcvgngr gur npgvbaf yrnqvat gb gur evsg orgjrra Tvyrf naq Ohssl.
Jbbq xarj rknpgyl jung vg jnf ohg ur yvfgrarq gb vg naljnl.
~H
Malsperanza
I give it a slightly different spin, but easier to discuss down the
line.
~Mal
Sam
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
> > A potential just happens to get in the way every time. And the bit
> > about Giles not casting a shadow seems really pretty ironclad to me.
>
> they get shadows wrong all the time
>
Yeah, but they don't generally make a point of dramatically shooting
the sunrise, from below, with a character stepping directly in front of
the sun and obstructing it, and then *immediately* cutting to a vampire
who is in the space of said obstructed light and showing it being
driven away by the sunlight. In an episode full of other careful nods
to Giles being immaterial.
vague disclaimer
"Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Trouble is, she does seem to think her pet project is more important
> > > > than anything else.
> > >
> > > Vf Fcvxr'f yvsr zber inyhnoyr va gur svtug guna nal bs gur Cbgragvnyf?
> > > Ohssl fnlf (yngre) jul fur guvaxf fb, naq vf cebira evtug, ab?
> > >
> > > ~Zny
> >
> > Frggvat nfvqr gung, rira vs gehr, gurer vf ab cbffvoyr jnl fur pbhyq
> > xabj gung, vg vfa'g gehr - fur vf jebat. Naq vg vf ure jebatarff gung
> > yrnqf gb gur terng bhg-puhpx.
> >
> > Vg jnf ure ernyvfngvba gung *rirelobql* unq gb or tvira n funer va 'gur
> > cbjre' gung jba gur qnl. Jvgubhg Jvyybj gb perngr gur cbgragvny nezl naq
> > gur cbgragvny nezl gb jva gur onggyr, Fcvxr jbhyq arire unir orra va n
> > cbfvgvba qb 'qb gur pyrna hc' naq fnpevsvpr uvzfrys pbirevat gur
> > rinphngvba.
> >
> > Fb, ab.
>
>
> I give it a slightly different spin, but easier to discuss down the
> line.
>
> ~Mal
Fair enough.
vague disclaimer
"Sam" <hyperevol...@gmail.com> wrote:
Except that even a First!Giles would still be opaque - and would cast a
shadow, immaterial or not.
Michael Ikeda
> In article <ruKdnQb05uUpxoHY...@rcn.net>,
> Michael Ikeda <mmi...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>> >> Willow first meets Kennedy in episode 7.10 and in episode
>> >> 7.13 they go on their first date.
>> >>
>> >> Willow first meets Tara in episode 4.10 and in episode 4.13
>> >> she's spending the night in Tara's bedroom.
>> >>
>> >> I'm really not sure you can say that season 7 is rushing
>> >> things compared to season 4...
>> >
>> > Stop confusing people with facts.
>>
>> Actually Stephen isn't being entirely accurate.
>>
>> Willow starts spending the night in Tara's bedroom in episode
>> 4.12.
>
> It's like I always said: they took FAR too long getting down to
> it in S7.
Willow's playing "hard to get"... :)
And now to an entirely different subject. Remember last year's Buffy
birthday episode "Older and Far Away"? Remember Spike's suggestion
that Buffy consider not celebrating her birthday?
Note that THIS season they haven't had a birthday episode yet...
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Don Sample
Giles steps in front of the sun, obstructing it. That's called casting
a shadow. If he didn't cast a shadow, he wouldn't have obstructed the
sun.
William George Ferguson
wrote:
>vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote in
>news:l64o-1rj5-49652...@europe.isp.giganews.com:
>
>> In article <ruKdnQb05uUpxoHY...@rcn.net>,
>> Michael Ikeda <mmi...@erols.com> wrote:
>>
>>> >> Willow first meets Kennedy in episode 7.10 and in episode
>>> >> 7.13 they go on their first date.
>>> >>
>>> >> Willow first meets Tara in episode 4.10 and in episode 4.13
>>> >> she's spending the night in Tara's bedroom.
>>> >>
>>> >> I'm really not sure you can say that season 7 is rushing
>>> >> things compared to season 4...
>>> >
>>> > Stop confusing people with facts.
>>>
>>> Actually Stephen isn't being entirely accurate.
>>>
>>> Willow starts spending the night in Tara's bedroom in episode
>>> 4.12.
>>
>> It's like I always said: they took FAR too long getting down to
>> it in S7.
>
>Willow's playing "hard to get"... :)
>
>And now to an entirely different subject. Remember last year's Buffy
>birthday episode "Older and Far Away"? Remember Spike's suggestion
>that Buffy consider not celebrating her birthday?
>
>Note that THIS season they haven't had a birthday episode yet...
Bring on the Night took place before Christmas (they made a point of the
Christmas decorations, and Christmas tree lot). Showtime took place a week
or two after BotN, with three more Potentials showing up. Potential took
place not too long after Showtime, maybe a week or so, but is almost
certainly in early January, as school is back in session. TKIM takes
place at least a week or so after Potential. We won't really be past the
point where one could say 'hey, they didn't do a Buffy's birthday' episode
for another couple of eps, barring a date stamp in one, like was in CWDP or
BotN.
Buffy to this point in season 7 has been moving along fairly leisurely,
with apparently a week or two passing between each episode. We haven't had
one of those heel and toe stretches yet (like SR/Villains/2TG/Grave) where
the eps are obviously happening with little or no time passing between
them. We also haven't had any obvious big time jumps either.
--
... and my sister is a vampire slayer, her best friend is a witch who
went bonkers and tried to destroy the world, um, I actually used to be
a little ball of energy until about two years ago when some monks
changed the past and made me Buffy's sister and for some reason, a big
klepto. My best friends are Leticia Jones, who moved to San Diego
because this town is evil, and a floppy eared demon named Clem.
(Dawn's fantasy of her intro speech in "Lessons", from the shooting script)
vague disclaimer
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
<snip a little clutter>
> > > Buffy is acting like Spike's wife.
> >
> > I think that is adding a layer that just is not there. Buffy is acting
> > like Spike is her pet project.
> >
> > In another show she could be the hard-but-fair vet who slaughters the
> > entire herd out of fear of Anthrax, while holding the angry farmer at
> > bay - and then tenderly nurses little Jimmy's pet huskie back to health
> > when everyone else is saying "put the mutt down".
> >
> > Trouble is, she does seem to think her pet project is more important
> > than anything else.
>
> Now that isn't actually true. She takes a risk when she decides to help
> him in 'Sleeper', yes, but there's more to it. From 'Amends':
>
> "Maybe this evil did bring you back, but if it did, it's because it
> needs you. And that means that you can hurt it."
Which, if you think about it, doesn't make any kind of sense. But then,
this was rhetoric, not reason.
> If Spike is important to The First,
But for what? He is confused, unsure of himself and vulnerable and
probably the easiest one to play, of those close to Buffy - with Willow
a very close second.
> he's also important to her.
But why? Because the former attempted rapist turned and fought the demon
inside him and was willing to pay the ultimate price when he thought he
had lost. That earns him a special bumper-sized pack of brownie points.
But it doesn't make him more important than Willow or the Potentials.
The First is just fucking with Spike's head. It has been *slaughtering*
Potentials for months (at least). I'd say that makes 'em seem pretty
damned important to The First.
> And
> Buffy has never taken the easy way out when one of her group was in
> danger. Remember that she traded Willow for the Mayor's box, when
> common sense dictated that destroying the box was by far the safer
> option.
True enough, but then at that point Willow had never shown the slightest
predilection towards being a killing machine. And one wonders what
Buffy's decision processes would have been without Wesley to react
against.
> Not to mention the fact that the battle with The First is mostly about
> people's souls. Why do you think it was/is so concerned with Andrew?
Again true enough. But that doesn't alter the fact that Buffy is showing
signs of having badly warped priorities.
The First has attacked Willow three times now (taking is read that Amy
was, at best, played by The First and at worst in cahoots); it
slaughtered Potentials and wiped out the institution to which Giles once
dedicated his life.
But Spike is the one who gets the "there there, who's a little choochy
face then" treatment.
Now, despite the odd moments of clunky pandering (which I may have
mentioned once or twice..perhaps...maybe naq gur zbfg funzryrff rknzcyr
bs juvpu vf fgvyy gb pbzr), that is still a damned interesting direction
to take the story.
Her leadership skills are being tested and she is showing a marked
tendency to turn to the Yes man.
Don Sample
vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
> In article <1159561524.9...@c28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> <snip a little clutter>
> > > > Buffy is acting like Spike's wife.
> > >
> > > I think that is adding a layer that just is not there. Buffy is acting
> > > like Spike is her pet project.
> > >
> > > In another show she could be the hard-but-fair vet who slaughters the
> > > entire herd out of fear of Anthrax, while holding the angry farmer at
> > > bay - and then tenderly nurses little Jimmy's pet huskie back to health
> > > when everyone else is saying "put the mutt down".
> > >
> > > Trouble is, she does seem to think her pet project is more important
> > > than anything else.
> >
> > Now that isn't actually true. She takes a risk when she decides to help
> > him in 'Sleeper', yes, but there's more to it. From 'Amends':
> >
> > "Maybe this evil did bring you back, but if it did, it's because it
> > needs you. And that means that you can hurt it."
>
> Which, if you think about it, doesn't make any kind of sense. But then,
> this was rhetoric, not reason.
>
> > If Spike is important to The First,
>
> But for what? He is confused, unsure of himself and vulnerable and
> probably the easiest one to play, of those close to Buffy - with Willow
> a very close second.
A lot of that confusion and uncertainty comes from what the First has
already done to him.
> > he's also important to her.
>
> But why? Because the former attempted rapist turned and fought the demon
> inside him and was willing to pay the ultimate price when he thought he
> had lost. That earns him a special bumper-sized pack of brownie points.
For over two years now, Spike has been Buffy's got-to guy when she needs
some extra muscle to back her up. Even after the attempted rape, she
trusted him to watch Dawn when Willow went on the rampage.
> But it doesn't make him more important than Willow or the Potentials.
> The First is just fucking with Spike's head. It has been *slaughtering*
> Potentials for months (at least). I'd say that makes 'em seem pretty
> damned important to The First.
The Potentials are what they need to protect, not what they need to
fight the First. As in the situation with Glory, Buffy needs someone
with muscle to back her up.
Jeff Jacoby
In what incident previous to _Checkpoint_ did she "go to" Spike?
After that it wasn't until _Spiral_ she went to him again. Even in
_The Gift_, it was Willow who initiated his charge up the tower.
She hardly at all in season 6 (you reference below is duly noted).
And so far in this season only in STSP and _Bring on the Night_
(in which at least one of those incidents was for his very
strong and powerful sense of smell.)
Hardly much of a "go to" guy (in comparison to all the times
she's gone to her friends for help).
> Even after the attempted rape, she
> trusted him to watch Dawn when Willow went on the rampage.
>
>
>> But it doesn't make him more important than Willow or the Potentials.
>> The First is just fucking with Spike's head. It has been *slaughtering*
>> Potentials for months (at least). I'd say that makes 'em seem pretty
>> damned important to The First.
>
> The Potentials are what they need to protect, not what they need to
> fight the First.
Yet she's specifically *not* hiding them away to
be protected. She's training them to fight, and
to be able to fight without her or Spike's help.
> As in the situation with Glory, Buffy needs someone
> with muscle to back her up.
What good is Spike's "muscle" against the incorporeal
First? Dawn, Xander, etc. are shown to be reasonably
capable against the Bringers. It's also proven Spike
can't beat an Ubervamp.
And there's still that trigger lying dormant. They haven't
figured it out at all; it's possible he could end up using
his muscle against the good guys.
At this stage in the season it really doesn't seem like
she needs more "muscle".
Jeff
Elisi
> > "Maybe this evil did bring you back, but if it did, it's because it
> > needs you. And that means that you can hurt it."
>
> Which, if you think about it, doesn't make any kind of sense. But then,
> this was rhetoric, not reason.
Of course it makes sense: Angel dies, The First wins ("That wasn't the
plan! But it'll do...") Ditto Spike.
> > If Spike is important to The First,
>
> But for what? He is confused, unsure of himself and vulnerable and
> probably the easiest one to play, of those close to Buffy - with Willow
> a very close second.
She should just kill them both - I'm sure The Council would agree were
it around.
> > he's also important to her.
>
> But why? Because the former attempted rapist turned and fought the demon
> inside him and was willing to pay the ultimate price when he thought he
> had lost. That earns him a special bumper-sized pack of brownie points.
>
> But it doesn't make him more important than Willow or the Potentials.
> The First is just fucking with Spike's head. It has been *slaughtering*
> Potentials for months (at least). I'd say that makes 'em seem pretty
> damned important to The First.
Yes, they're _all_ important. But The First has been messing with
Spike's head, ergo it has special plans for him. I agree killing him
would be the safest choice. But Buffy doesn't work that way. She's not
Kendra, she's not Wesley.
> > And
> > Buffy has never taken the easy way out when one of her group was in
> > danger. Remember that she traded Willow for the Mayor's box, when
> > common sense dictated that destroying the box was by far the safer
> > option.
>
> True enough, but then at that point Willow had never shown the slightest
> predilection towards being a killing machine. And one wonders what
> Buffy's decision processes would have been without Wesley to react
> against.
In destroying the box they had an actual chance of stopping the Mayor.
Killing Spike would not stop The First - only make it happy.
> > Not to mention the fact that the battle with The First is mostly about
> > people's souls. Why do you think it was/is so concerned with Andrew?
>
> Again true enough. But that doesn't alter the fact that Buffy is showing
> signs of having badly warped priorities.
>
> The First has attacked Willow three times now (taking is read that Amy
> was, at best, played by The First and at worst in cahoots); it
> slaughtered Potentials and wiped out the institution to which Giles once
> dedicated his life.
>
> But Spike is the one who gets the "there there, who's a little choochy
> face then" treatment.
>
> Now, despite the odd moments of clunky pandering (which I may have
> mentioned once or twice..perhaps...maybe naq gur zbfg funzryrff rknzcyr
> bs juvpu vf fgvyy gb pbzr), that is still a damned interesting direction
> to take the story.
>
> Her leadership skills are being tested and she is showing a marked
> tendency to turn to the Yes man.
> --
> Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
Look it's not easy discussing this without going into spoilery
territory. All I'll say is:
Svefg Qngr pbasvezf gung gurer ner bgure ernfbaf sbe Ohssl gb xrrc
Fcvxr nebhaq guna uvf svtugvat novyvgvrf. Naq lrg va Trg Vg Qbar Ohssl
pnyyf uvz ba uvf yrff guna jubyr-urnegrq svtugvat naq trg onpx gur
jneevbe gung fur arrqf sbe gur pbzvat onggyrf.
Naq er. YZCGZ, gura V'q fnl vg'f Gur Svefg'f gnpgvpf jvaavat bhg va n
znwbe jnl. Xrrcvat frpergf, tbvat oruvaq fbzrbar'f onpx? _Nyjnlf_ onq
va gur Ohssl irefr. V'z abg fnlvat gung Ohssl pna frr pyrneyl jurer
Fcvxr vf pbaprearq, ohg arvgure pna Tvyrf, naq Jbbq sne yrff fb.
Gurer vf nyfb gur snpg gung gur znwbe gurzr bs gur frnfba vf Cbjre. Naq
jung'f gur fgebatrfg guvat bs nyy? Ybir, snvgu naq ubcr. Gurfr ner jung
jva gur jne.
vague disclaimer
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> vague disclaimer wrote:
>
> > > "Maybe this evil did bring you back, but if it did, it's because it
> > > needs you. And that means that you can hurt it."
> >
> > Which, if you think about it, doesn't make any kind of sense. But then,
> > this was rhetoric, not reason.
>
> Of course it makes sense: Angel dies, The First wins ("That wasn't the
> plan! But it'll do...") Ditto Spike.
What defeated the First was killing its Harbingers. At most what
happened would have disappointed The First. Hardly hurt.
> > > If Spike is important to The First,
> >
> > But for what? He is confused, unsure of himself and vulnerable and
> > probably the easiest one to play, of those close to Buffy - with Willow
> > a very close second.
>
> She should just kill them both - I'm sure The Council would agree were
> it around.
Where, at any point, have I argued that Spike should be killed?
> > > he's also important to her.
> >
> > But why? Because the former attempted rapist turned and fought the demon
> > inside him and was willing to pay the ultimate price when he thought he
> > had lost. That earns him a special bumper-sized pack of brownie points.
> >
> > But it doesn't make him more important than Willow or the Potentials.
> > The First is just fucking with Spike's head. It has been *slaughtering*
> > Potentials for months (at least). I'd say that makes 'em seem pretty
> > damned important to The First.
>
> Yes, they're _all_ important.
So why does Spike get special treatment....right:
> But The First has been messing with
> Spike's head, ergo it has special plans for him.
Yes, to warp Buffy's priorities. Even in Showtime her actions were
couched in terms of "If we're going to rescue Spike", rather than "If
we're going to stay safe" - never mind "If the Army I've just formed is
going to take the battle to the enemy".
It isn't too surprising: she's had a whole heap of trouble land in her
lap, so it is natural to focus one the one thing the has experience of:
a souled vampire.
> I agree killing him
> would be the safest choice. But Buffy doesn't work that way. She's not
> Kendra, she's not Wesley.
Again, who said anything about killing him?
Bs pbhefr gurl pna'g. Naq nibvqvat bar fvzcyr npg bs penff fghcvqvgl
jbhyq unir urnqrq gur jubyr guvat bss ng gur cnff. Ohg ure whqtrzrag jnf
fubg gb cvrprf.
> Gurer vf nyfb gur snpg gung gur znwbe gurzr bs gur frnfba vf Cbjre. Naq
> jung'f gur fgebatrfg guvat bs nyy? Ybir, snvgu naq ubcr. Gurfr ner jung
> jva gur jne.
Opus the Penguin
> There's some retconning of Spike's Initiative experience here. He
> talks about having multiple experiments on the chip done on him in
> this episode, but back in "The Initiative" he wakes up, escapes,
> and doesn't really learn that anything has been done to him until
> he finds that he can't attack Willow.
That's more of a retUNcon. They would need a retcon later to restore
the continuity damaged by this contradiction.
--
Opus the Penguin
The best darn penguin in all of Usenet
Malsperanza
But there's nothing new about Buffy showing faith in Spike beyond what
the (visible) facts warrant, and then being proven right. She did it in
s5 too, where she put Dawn entirely in his care and protection, even
when he had no soul and no prospect of one.
Although there's plenty of pandering in the Spike arc, there's also
another trick going on. The audience sees Spike do selfless things that
the Scoobies and Buffy don't see. All through the period when he's
stalking Buffy (romantically) in s5, he's also watching out for Dawn,
making sure she doesn't get eaten by monsters when she runs around the
streets of Sunnydale at night, helping her find out who she is and
taking her to Doc. (OK, that was a bad idea, but it was done out of
care for her safety and kindness.) Letting her hang out in his crypt
and telling her scary stories to sooth her fears. Plus bringing flowers
to Joyce's wake.
The result of all this is that when Buffy chooses to trust him, *we*
have evidence of why she's right to do that, which neither she nor the
Scoobies have. That either makes her look like an idiot (as you suggest
above), or it makes her look like she has whopping intuition and
insight, which I think is the intent.
~Mal
Elisi
vague disclaimer wrote:
> In article <1159603867.2...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
> "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > vague disclaimer wrote:
> >
> > > > "Maybe this evil did bring you back, but if it did, it's because it
> > > > needs you. And that means that you can hurt it."
> > >
> > > Which, if you think about it, doesn't make any kind of sense. But then,
> > > this was rhetoric, not reason.
> >
> > Of course it makes sense: Angel dies, The First wins ("That wasn't the
> > plan! But it'll do...") Ditto Spike.
>
> What defeated the First was killing its Harbingers. At most what
> happened would have disappointed The First. Hardly hurt.
>
> > > > If Spike is important to The First,
> > >
> > > But for what? He is confused, unsure of himself and vulnerable and
> > > probably the easiest one to play, of those close to Buffy - with Willow
> > > a very close second.
> >
> > She should just kill them both - I'm sure The Council would agree were
> > it around.
>
> Where, at any point, have I argued that Spike should be killed?
Sorry, I was just trying to work out where you were going with your
arguments. And I still am - you don't want Spike dead, but you don't
want Buffy to help him. It's rather confusing. So far, we've seen her
get him out of the basement (after several weeks apparently), rescue
him from The First (which surely can't be a bad thing), and now she
keeps him chained up and has him help train the Potentials. How is any
of that coddling? Sure she's attracted to him, but then they have quite
a history. So far, I fail to see where you're getting at - her
treatment of him is miles and miles from the way she kept falling into
Angel's arms in S3.
> > > > he's also important to her.
> > >
> > > But why? Because the former attempted rapist turned and fought the demon
> > > inside him and was willing to pay the ultimate price when he thought he
> > > had lost. That earns him a special bumper-sized pack of brownie points.
> > >
> > > But it doesn't make him more important than Willow or the Potentials.
> > > The First is just fucking with Spike's head. It has been *slaughtering*
> > > Potentials for months (at least). I'd say that makes 'em seem pretty
> > > damned important to The First.
> >
> > Yes, they're _all_ important.
>
> So why does Spike get special treatment....right:
When does he gets special treatment? When she helps him get the chip
out of his head?
> > But The First has been messing with
> > Spike's head, ergo it has special plans for him.
>
> Yes, to warp Buffy's priorities. Even in Showtime her actions were
> couched in terms of "If we're going to rescue Spike", rather than "If
> we're going to stay safe" - never mind "If the Army I've just formed is
> going to take the battle to the enemy".
That's how it started out, yes, before the Ubervamp targeted the
Potentials specifically. And having to keep them safe, she *really*
needed someone else with superpowers to fight on her side.
> It isn't too surprising: she's had a whole heap of trouble land in her
> lap, so it is natural to focus one the one thing the has experience of:
> a souled vampire.
She's been using Spike as the guy she can depend on since S5. The fact
that he has a soul mean that now she might also be able to trust him. I
like OBS's 'married couples' thing - they know each other so well that
they don't need to explain, and are very comfortable together. I can
see how Buffy might need that - someone she needen't 'keep up
appearances' for:
"No, I enjoy my responsibility as mentor, role model, life guide-oh,
my God, I cannot believe I have my bathroom all to myself for two whole
days."
> > I agree killing him
> > would be the safest choice. But Buffy doesn't work that way. She's not
> > Kendra, she's not Wesley.
>
> Again, who said anything about killing him?
Then, what do you propose? She can't 'half' help him.
Let's leave all that until we get there, OK? I'm sure we'll have fun. ;)
vague disclaimer
Opus the Penguin <opusthepen...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Don Sample (dsa...@synapse.net) wrote:
>
> > There's some retconning of Spike's Initiative experience here. He
> > talks about having multiple experiments on the chip done on him in
> > this episode, but back in "The Initiative" he wakes up, escapes,
> > and doesn't really learn that anything has been done to him until
> > he finds that he can't attack Willow.
>
> That's more of a retUNcon. They would need a retcon later to restore
> the continuity damaged by this contradiction.
Don't sweat it.
It's just the monk's spell... :-)
lili...@gmail.com
vague disclaimer schreef:
> In article <1159532127.9...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
> "hayes62" <hay...@tesco.net> wrote:
>
> > vague disclaimer wrote:
> >
> > > In another show she could be the hard-but-fair vet who slaughters the
> > > entire herd out of fear of Anthrax, while holding the angry farmer at
> > > bay - and then tenderly nurses little Jimmy's pet huskie back to health
> > > when everyone else is saying "put the mutt down".
> > >
> > And thinking about the Buffy/Spike S6 relationship in terms of that
> > metaphor is a veritable world of Ew.
>
> ithangyoooo
>
> I'm here for the season :)
> --
> Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
Well at least it's better than how I tend to imagine B/X, aka as Buffy
having sex with her teddy bear.
Lore
Ken from Chicago
<lili...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1159639182.2...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
Eeeeeeeewwww!
-- Ken from Chicago
One Bit Shy
news:1159500676.8...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> For my money; Spike has chemistry with pretty
> much everything on two legs, plus lampposts and parked cars,
And doors. ;-)
He's a good actor by most any terms, but I think his greatest attribute is
his uncanny ability to play off of other characters. He makes everyone look
good.
OBS
One Bit Shy
news:l64o-1rj5-FAE13...@europe.isp.giganews.com...
>> Of course it makes sense: Angel dies, The First wins ("That wasn't the
>> plan! But it'll do...") Ditto Spike.
>
> What defeated the First was killing its Harbingers. At most what
> happened would have disappointed The First. Hardly hurt.
Killing Bringers would count as a muscle action wouldn't it?
Nobody has a handle yet on how to fight The First directly - or even what
such a notion means. Right now there are only two known avenues.
Foiling/resisting its schemes - which would include pulling Spike away from
its influence. (In keeping with that, one also notes that Andrew is being
kept around. At this point, those are the only two around known to have
been controlled by The First.) And defeating its physical minions - which
are now known to potentially be more powerful than Bringers. (e.g.
ubervamp) The second is the one Buffy would understand the best, and one
calling for muscle.
>> Yes, they're _all_ important.
> So why does Spike get special treatment....right:
What kind of special treatment is that? Getting rescued from the clutches
of The First? I thought that was the sort of thing that Buffy was supposed
to do. Is there someone she hasn't tried to save? Or do you mean getting
help with the chip? The one that looked like it was killing him. What was
she supposed to do, leave him writhing in pain?
I'm not clearly seeing the special treatment. I do, however, see a special
relationship. Maybe that will cause trouble. Maybe it won't. But I don't
see how she can avoid knowing him like she does. Nor avoid having a
connection with him beyond what she does with The Potentials.
I'm not going to claim impeccable judgment from Buffy, but at this point she
appears to be attemting to treat everybody appropriately to their situation.
She's training The Potentials. She's trying to walk a tightrope of pushing
Willow to commit to the fight without pushing her to a disaster. She's
working to get Spike to believe in himself - though that starts with just
getting him to survive a couple crises. We haven't seen much screen time
with Giles, but the implication of them searching for The First's haunts
together in Bring On The Night and follow-up to come is that she is
consulting with him. Xander, Anya & Dawn appear to be mostly left to pitch
in on their own where they can, though they are expected to do that and
Buffy feels free to assign things to them. Everybody does research and
follows up where opportunity presents - like Giles and Anya going to talk to
that Eye.
There may be better ways to balance things. Different priorities not
thought of. Perhaps someone will suggest something different. But I don't
see anything wildly askew with the effort now. They seem rational
approaches to people and circumstances.
>> But The First has been messing with
>> Spike's head, ergo it has special plans for him.
>
> Yes, to warp Buffy's priorities. Even in Showtime her actions were
> couched in terms of "If we're going to rescue Spike", rather than "If
> we're going to stay safe" - never mind "If the Army I've just formed is
> going to take the battle to the enemy".
>
> It isn't too surprising: she's had a whole heap of trouble land in her
> lap, so it is natural to focus one the one thing the has experience of:
> a souled vampire.
The First has the initiative - something Buffy has observed and was very
vocal about seeking to reverse. But she didn't have anything more than the
ubervamp to fight, and remains forced to react. That may mess with her
priorities, but that's what having the initiative does. It forces one to
react. Force. As in not a choice, short of conceding defeat. If Spike is
taking up too much attention, but you don't want to abandon him, maybe the
best solution is to get him up to full power as fast as possible.
OBS
One Bit Shy
news:1159631539.0...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> She's been using Spike as the guy she can depend on since S5. The fact
> that he has a soul mean that now she might also be able to trust him. I
> like OBS's 'married couples' thing - they know each other so well that
> they don't need to explain, and are very comfortable together. I can
> see how Buffy might need that - someone she needen't 'keep up
> appearances' for:
Va gur arkg rcvfbqr jr frr n pbzcyrgryl jbeqyrff rkpunatr orgjrra gurz nsgre
svtugvat Knaqre'f qrzba.
Yes, that's the kind of thing I was going for with the analogy. The way
they act carries some of the attributes of married couples. (But I don't
mean it as them thinking of themselves as married or to suggest that as some
kind of natural direction for them.)
OBS
Malsperanza
Heh. Not to mention making the doors look good.
I was watching some of s5 yesterday, because I didn't remember it very
well. I was thinking about how nice the character of Ben was and
wondering why more hadn't been done with him. Then I realized that the
character was written with lots of possibilities, but the actor--though
cute as a button and perfectly competent--had not taken the role very
far. He did what was called for, and that was that. It gave me a new
view of how much Marsters brought to Spike, who would otherwise have
been an interesting but fairly obvious character.
~Mal
Ken from Chicago
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote in message
news:12hu1t8...@news.supernews.com...
While he can command a scene solo, JM also plays well with others.That's
part of the crime of S6 was that Spike was isolated from most of the cast
most of the season.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
Ironic considering Spike was sposed to be killed mid-S2 when Dru was healed
but JM had did so well with the role, the stake was spared.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote in message
I've said for the longest that Mulder / Scully, aside from touching, were
depicted like married couples. They knew each other so well--even if they
didn't see eye to eye, they each knew what the other's eyes saw.
Spike / Buffy have some of that, tho I tend to think Spike has the advantage
of being a century and a half old, and a vamp, so there are some things he's
seen Buffy doesn't know, but might can imagine if she tried.
-- Ken from Chicago
hayes62
with each other, too stepping carefully through broken glass, for
actual marrieds.
~H
vague disclaimer
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> She's been using Spike as the guy she can depend on since S5. The fact
> that he has a soul mean that now she might also be able to trust him. I
> like OBS's 'married couples' thing - they know each other so well that
> they don't need to explain, and are very comfortable together. I can
> see how Buffy might need that - someone she needen't 'keep up
> appearances' for:
This will be easier to discuss after the next ep (he said, having
noticed he got slightly ahead of himself). I'll just note that Jeff
Jacoby has done a fairly comprehensive (with dates and everything)
debunking of the "Spike as her No 1 go to guy" claim.
"Occasionally, in extremis" would be more precise.
>
> Let's leave all that until we get there, OK? I'm sure we'll have fun. ;)
Tally ho!
On an entirely separate note, before the said moving on, I was thinking
this review was AoQ's laziest, most ill-thought through since his Cordy
clouded S2 reviews - and was all ready to get irate with him for letting
silly over-reaction to a character cloud his judgement of where
narrative force is taking the story.
Then he went and said he was moving, something I hate doing with fiery
passion and understand the stresses of too damned well - and I end up
feeling all sorry for him.
And I've just realised the punch line I was going to use would be a
spoiler.
vague disclaimer
"hayes62" <hay...@tesco.net> wrote:
Actually they're just playing with an Odd Couple trope.
Malsperanza
Yes, and while I don't mean to reflect poorly on the actor who played
Ben (or any other of the actors with temporary roles), one can see the
difference even in those early episodes. I'm always curious about what
a screen actor brings to a role and what is the director, writers,
cameraman, post-production magicks etc. On stage you can see the actors
as artists much more clearly.
Marsters has old-fashioned screen presence, or star power, or whatever
one calls it. He makes the camera love him. Of course, the show also
latched onto this once Angel was gone, and played it for all it was
worth. In S6 it got too obvious (all the shirtlessness), and that was a
little tiresome--a kind of not-trusting the viewers to get the
chemistry without having it waved in our faces.
But I think the isolating of Spike from everyone else in s6 was
actually rather smart, because nothing works so well as keeping the
audience hungry, wanting more. The more Spike and Buffy are isolated,
the more we want to see what will happen when they finally do return to
the real(ish) world.
S6 is the Dark Night of the Soul season, the hero's classic Descent
into the Underworld ("I've been in Hell/Since I was expelled from
Heaaaaven"). Buffy descends into hell ... and finds Spike there, where
he's been living for 100+ years. In s7 she seems to have returned to
earth, to life, and has brought Spike with her...maybe. (It's a sort of
gender reversal of the Orpheus version of this story: He goes down into
Hades to rescue his lover, Persephone.)
So now, in s7, we'll see if either Spike or Buffy *can* rejoin society.
So far, Buffy's still aloof and Spike is still in the basement
(mini-Underworld). But he's in the Summerhouse now, at least. And he
seems to be back working with the others. We shall see.
~Mal
Malsperanza
Or just a not-very-good marriage? ("we'll raise the beam on making
marriage a hell")--a marriage where too many things have to remain
unsaid and unacknowledged. Anyone who imagines that this couple could
settle down to romantic happiness together has to do an awful lot of
squinting past all the ways in which they are incompatible and not
meant for each other--at least, so far.
If ever a TV pair were set up *not* to fall into Moonlighting syndrome,
it's these two. Well... not Moonlighting syndrome in the usual sense,
anyway. ;-)
~Mal
Elisi
vague disclaimer wrote:
> In article <1159631539.0...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > She's been using Spike as the guy she can depend on since S5. The fact
> > that he has a soul mean that now she might also be able to trust him. I
> > like OBS's 'married couples' thing - they know each other so well that
> > they don't need to explain, and are very comfortable together. I can
> > see how Buffy might need that - someone she needen't 'keep up
> > appearances' for:
>
> This will be easier to discuss after the next ep (he said, having
> noticed he got slightly ahead of himself). I'll just note that Jeff
> Jacoby has done a fairly comprehensive (with dates and everything)
> debunking of the "Spike as her No 1 go to guy" claim.
>
> "Occasionally, in extremis" would be more precise.
I see what you mean, but it's not quite what I'm talking about. But
I'll get to that a little further along.
> > Let's leave all that until we get there, OK? I'm sure we'll have fun. ;)
>
> Tally ho!
>
> On an entirely separate note, before the said moving on, I was thinking
> this review was AoQ's laziest, most ill-thought through since his Cordy
> clouded S2 reviews - and was all ready to get irate with him for letting
> silly over-reaction to a character cloud his judgement of where
> narrative force is taking the story.
>
> Then he went and said he was moving, something I hate doing with fiery
> passion and understand the stresses of too damned well - and I end up
> feeling all sorry for him.
Oh dear! ;) I think the problem with the episode is that what it _is_,
is Willow letting go of Tara. Which makes her feel as though she killed
her and ergo the Warren thing. Warren is only being used symbolically,
and I don't think it's actually got much to do with the fact that she
killed him. (Actually I think she feels v. bad for _killing_ him, but
not so much for killing _him_. As Dawn and Xander also argued back when
she first went after him.)
But when the audience sees her becoming Warren, they autmatically think
'OMG she murdered him! What are they trying to say about _that_?' So,
mixed signals or something.
> And I've just realised the punch line I was going to use would be a
> spoiler.
All good things in time. :)
Don Sample
vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
> In article <1159631539.0...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > She's been using Spike as the guy she can depend on since S5. The fact
> > that he has a soul mean that now she might also be able to trust him. I
> > like OBS's 'married couples' thing - they know each other so well that
> > they don't need to explain, and are very comfortable together. I can
> > see how Buffy might need that - someone she needen't 'keep up
> > appearances' for:
>
> This will be easier to discuss after the next ep (he said, having
> noticed he got slightly ahead of himself). I'll just note that Jeff
> Jacoby has done a fairly comprehensive (with dates and everything)
> debunking of the "Spike as her No 1 go to guy" claim.
>
> "Occasionally, in extremis" would be more precise.
Who did she go to more than Spike? Dawn got kidnapped in "Real Me." Who
was Buffy's first stop? Where did she park Dawn and Joyce after Glory
paid a visit to her house in "Checkpoint?" Where did she park Dawn
after Tara got mindsucked in "Tough Love?" Who did she insist that they
take along on their road trip in "Spiral" because he was the only one
strong enough to have an sort of chance of helping against Glory? Who
did Buffy count on to protect Dawn in "The Gift?" Who was the only
person that Buffy told the truth to about what happened to her while she
was dead? And then who did she keep going back to, over and over and
over all through season 6?