AOQ Angel Review 2-11: "Redefinition"
Arbitrar Of Quality
episodes in these review threads.
ANGEL
Season Two, Episode 11: "Redefinition"
(or "I decided not to narrate this part of my story. I think it
speaks for itself.")
Writer: Mere Smith
Director: Michael Grossman
"What with one thing and another, three years passed." - Chapter
Four of _The Princess Bride_, in its entirety.
"Redefinition" is the second ATS episode this year that functions
in large part as a mood piece. There's a certain deliberate style
about it, as seen in the off-center aerial camera shot in the teaser,
the quiet dialogue-sparse scenes of characters moving around, and the
use of Angel's voiceovers, as sparse as the rest of the episode.
Very moody and broody. Much like our protagonist himself, who I only
realized in retrospect doesn't speak a single line of
non-voiceover'd dialogue all show. We get just the barest look at
what his life looks to be like after the events of "Reunion."
There's some training for the war to come, some spying and fears
about not being "ready," some crawls through sewers and
steam-filled alleys. And there's a fight scene that plays like
"_Angel_'s Greatest Hits," bringing back the
stakes-up-the-sleeves from "City Of" and Penn's wall-assisted
backflip from "Somnambulist." I don't know why he ditches the
coat, though. That's not cool.
Mere Smith gets to be the latest staff member to sometimes be credited
by full name and sometimes by nickname. Is director Michael Grossman
related to frequent Buffyverse director David?
The exception to the episode's general stylishness is the subplot
starring the sidekicks. The actors seem very much off their game,
Carpenter in particular and during the teaser in particular. It hurts
a little. I'd say there's only one thing I really liked about this
whole story; "I for one, would just like to point out the
patheticness that is us." I'm fine with what Point B ends up being
for them, but getting there from Point A isn't so nice to watch. The
pain feels forced, the attempts at banter feel unnatural, and the
dialogue clunks along. Acceptable is the fact that the show seems
(crossing my fingers, proverbially speaking) to have realized that if
one absolutely must do a bad-singing punchline, it should be kept under
ten seconds.
Virginia gives pointless recurring characters a bad name.
A lot of the action takes place in Wolfram And Hart's world, where
the Senior Partners seem to be ready to move on after Holland's fatal
stupidity. Lindsey and Lilah thus get engaged in highly civilized sort
of professional battle to the death, except that their job is mostly to
sit around waiting to be chosen between. This was pretty okay, I
guess. One thing that weakened it a little was that Romanov's acting
didn't really click for me this week, though, and I'm not just
talking about the one scene where *Lilah*'s acting was supposed to be
less than perfect. But speaking of which, Lindsey's reaction to the
seduction/framejob attempt is a nice way to cap off a scene that keeps
the viewer guessing. Smug little bastard, isn't he? The ending
resolution makes sense from a television standpoint; both characters
are worth hanging on to, and maybe bouncing them off each other some
more will be entertaining. Could be.
"During my stint as Wolfram & Hart's puppet, something occurred to
me. I *loathe* being used. If I recall I sent you a fifteen-body-memo
to that effect." Nice. Also nice is her playing with Lindsey's
head with her declarations of love; anyone else realize it wasn't
true before she said so? The rest of the D&D stuff, particularly Darla
recruiting her army, is pretty boring. I think that particular
scene's mostly there so we can see Angel watching and affecting her.
Drusilla throws words that she heard in a totally different context
back at her at one point, since ME shows love doing that (I like it
too), "you'll never be alone again."
One moment in "Redefinition" does manage to ingrain itself into my
brain, and I'd imagine it's what the episode is remembered for. I
speak, of course, of Angel, cigarette in hand, setting up a little fire
for the vamp chicks. They really look like they've been through hell
physically and emotionally afterward too. Finally, the world has a
hero who'll incinerate young women in the name of justice, or
revenge, or whatever. Even better than the flames, actually, is the
timing on Darla's "Angel? Angelus?" Unanswered, of course, but
she ends up classifying their enemy as neither one nor the other.
Don't know what it all means, but it makes an impression.
Despite the few arresting images like that, though, not a whole lot
that's deeply interesting really goes on in "Redefinition." That
combined with the awkward Wyndam-Pryce Investigations story means that
I can't in good conscience rank it higher than Decent. It may not
quite be fair to call the bulk of the show a throwaway given that
things do, in fact, move along with the W&H lawyers and with WPI. But
in the long run, my thoughts pretty much boil down to one summary
sentence: what with one thing and another, forty-five minutes passed.
So...
One-sentence summary: It exists.
AOQ rating: Decent
[Season Two so far:
1) "Judgment" - Weak
2) "Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been?" - Decent
3) "First Impressions" - Good
4) "Untouched" - Excellent*
5) "Dear Boy" - Good
6) "Guise Will Be Guise" - Decent
7) "Darla" - Good
8) "The Shroud Of Rahmon" - Decent
9) "The Trial" - Excellent
10) "Reunion" - Good
11) "Redefinition" - Decent]
*rating changed from original viewing
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> One moment in "Redefinition" does manage to ingrain itself into my
> brain, and I'd imagine it's what the episode is remembered for. I
> speak, of course, of Angel, cigarette in hand, setting up a little fire
> for the vamp chicks. They really look like they've been through hell
> physically and emotionally afterward too. Finally, the world has a
> hero who'll incinerate young women in the name of justice, or
> revenge, or whatever. Even better than the flames, actually, is the
> timing on Darla's "Angel? Angelus?" Unanswered, of course, but
> she ends up classifying their enemy as neither one nor the other.
> Don't know what it all means, but it makes an impression.
The fire scene is one of those "Why doesn't he stick around and finish
the job? Oh yeah, the actors playing Dru and Darla have multi-episode
contracts," moments in the series.
Vamps who are portrayed by actors whose names don't appear at the start
of an episode would have vanished in a flash of flame. Vampire
combustibility seems to be inversely proportional to how many lines of
dialogue they have.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
jil...@hotmail.com
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Finally, the world has a
> hero who'll incinerate young women in the name of justice, or
> revenge, or whatever.
AOQ!! Now, now... Angel is, and even we viewers are in a perfect
position to know that those two are neither young nor, in a technical
way, women. They are very old female beings of the sadistic variety.
Daniel Damouth
news:dsample-FD9FE9...@news.giganews.com:
> In article
> <1151298198.4...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> One moment in "Redefinition" does manage to ingrain itself into
>> my brain, and I'd imagine it's what the episode is remembered
>> for. I speak, of course, of Angel, cigarette in hand, setting up
>> a little fire for the vamp chicks. They really look like they've
>> been through hell physically and emotionally afterward too.
>> Finally, the world has a hero who'll incinerate young women in
>> the name of justice, or revenge, or whatever. Even better than
>> the flames, actually, is the timing on Darla's "Angel? Angelus?"
>> Unanswered, of course, but she ends up classifying their enemy
>> as neither one nor the other. Don't know what it all means, but
>> it makes an impression.
>
> The fire scene is one of those "Why doesn't he stick around and
> finish the job?"
Exactly. Very fakey writing. Insincere darkness on the part of Angel.
Pretty much invalidated the theme.
The drinking of Gunn, Cordy, and Wes, on the other hand, was
wonderfully funny and incisive stuff.
-Dan Damouth
3D Master
He should have made sure he finished the job, for taking down W&H piece
by piece.
3D Master
--
~~~~~
"I've got something to say; it's better to burn out than to fade away!"
- The Kurgan, Highlander
"Give me some sugar, baby!"
- Ashley J. 'Ash' Williams, Army of Darkness
~~~~~
Author of several stories, which can be found here:
http://members.chello.nl/~jg.temolder1/
Apteryx
news:1151298198.4...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for future _Buffy_ and _Angel_
> episodes in these review threads.
>
> realized in retrospect doesn't speak a single line of
> non-voiceover'd dialogue all show.
I think that's a big part of showing the change in him. That alone makes him
more distant, and the fact that he doesn't really interact with anyone is
spooky.
> A lot of the action takes place in Wolfram And Hart's world, where
> the Senior Partners seem to be ready to move on after Holland's fatal
> stupidity. Lindsey and Lilah thus get engaged in highly civilized sort
> of professional battle to the death, except that their job is mostly to
> sit around waiting to be chosen between. This was pretty okay, I
> guess. One thing that weakened it a little was that Romanov's acting
> didn't really click for me this week, though, and I'm not just
> talking about the one scene where *Lilah*'s acting was supposed to be
> less than perfect.
Lilah's has always been cool in a crisis. It's not hard to imagine though
that what she's been through and what she's facing makes it difficult for
her to keep that up here.
> But speaking of which, Lindsey's reaction to the
> seduction/framejob attempt is a nice way to cap off a scene that keeps
> the viewer guessing. Smug little bastard, isn't he? The ending
> resolution makes sense from a television standpoint; both characters
> are worth hanging on to, and maybe bouncing them off each other some
> more will be entertaining. Could be.
That's what they have been doing almost since we saw them. Now the
suggestion is it's a contest to the death.
> "During my stint as Wolfram & Hart's puppet, something occurred to
> me. I *loathe* being used. If I recall I sent you a fifteen-body-memo
> to that effect." Nice. Also nice is her playing with Lindsey's
> head with her declarations of love; anyone else realize it wasn't
> true before she said so? The rest of the D&D stuff, particularly Darla
> recruiting her army, is pretty boring.
I'd say that was the dullest part of the episode. Though we do get some nice
lines from Dru coming out of it.
>
> One moment in "Redefinition" does manage to ingrain itself into my
> brain, and I'd imagine it's what the episode is remembered for. I
> speak, of course, of Angel, cigarette in hand, setting up a little fire
> for the vamp chicks. They really look like they've been through hell
> physically and emotionally afterward too. Finally, the world has a
> hero who'll incinerate young women in the name of justice, or
> revenge, or whatever. Even better than the flames, actually, is the
> timing on Darla's "Angel? Angelus?" Unanswered, of course, but
> she ends up classifying their enemy as neither one nor the other.
> Don't know what it all means, but it makes an impression.
Obviously the key point of the episode.
> Despite the few arresting images like that, though, not a whole lot
> that's deeply interesting really goes on in "Redefinition." That
> combined with the awkward Wyndam-Pryce Investigations story means that
> I can't in good conscience rank it higher than Decent. It may not
> quite be fair to call the bulk of the show a throwaway given that
> things do, in fact, move along with the W&H lawyers and with WPI. But
> in the long run, my thoughts pretty much boil down to one summary
> sentence: what with one thing and another, forty-five minutes passed.
>
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: It exists.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
I don't disagree much with that assessment, and the reasons. But for me it
does enough as a character piece (introducing the new character of not
Angel/not Angelus) to get it just into low Good territory. For me, its the
35th best AtS episode, 14th best in season 2
--
Apteryx
lili...@gmail.com
Don Sample schreef:
There's actually a reason for that. They're family. It's the same in
series reason (other than the contracts bit*eg*) why newly souled Angel
didn't kill Spike, Dru and Darla after getting his soul back, why Angel
didn't kill Drusilla in s2 when he had the chance. Why he didn't kill
Penn right away. Why Spike got to walk away in Lover's Walk, ...
Be jul ur qvqa'g xvyy Fcvxr va gur synfuonpxf va f5 Jul jr svtug.
Angel finds it extremely hard to kill his little family. Sure Boreanaz
acting in s1 was not of the sort to show this, but he's killed his sire
once, he's killed Penn, and it hurts him to do so. They may be vampires
and monsters, but they're his family. They're 'his'.
So of course Darla and Dru aren't killed in Redefinition, because Angel
doesn't 'want' to kill them. He knows he has to, but he doesn't want
to.
He'll do it if someone he cares about is in immediate danger like in
'Angel', but that doesn't mean that the vampire part of him doesn't
fight against the idea.
It's actually a continuing thread all through the series. Angel might
not 'like' his family, he might not be able to stand them, but part of
him still cares for them. They're his fault, his responsibility,
they're basically 'his' and that is all the reason there will ever be.
Lore
lili...@gmail.com
Daniel Damouth schreef:
Actually it's not, I find it darker of Angel that he still connects too
much with his vampire side to be able to kill his family than it would
be if he were actually able to finish them off.
It's yet another bit of proof to how close Angelus is to the surface
and how little of a barrier there really is between souled Angel and
unsouled Angelus.
Lore
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
its one of the conservation laws of nature
the moriarity law of conservation of bad guys
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
One Bit Shy
news:1151298198.4...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
> ANGEL
> Season Two, Episode 11: "Redefinition"
> "Redefinition" is the second ATS episode this year that functions
> in large part as a mood piece. There's a certain deliberate style
> about it, as seen in the off-center aerial camera shot in the teaser,
> the quiet dialogue-sparse scenes of characters moving around, and the
> use of Angel's voiceovers, as sparse as the rest of the episode.
> Very moody and broody. Much like our protagonist himself, who I only
> realized in retrospect doesn't speak a single line of
> non-voiceover'd dialogue all show.
I didn't notice that until you said it. That kind adds something to the
episode for me...
The voiceovers are kind of problematic to me, and representative of my
feelings for the whole episode.
The sentiments expressed are frequently very good. Intriguing. Ominous.
Disturbing. A lot of mood stuff, as you observed.
But their actual recitation is so understated as to be bland, tending to
deflate mood rather than enhance it. (I'm reminded a little of your
indifferent response to the voice overs in Passion from BtVS S2. I didn't
feel the same way then, but it seems to have caught up with me here.)
I feel much the same about the whole episode. I'm right there with it for
the sentiments. Even for the Cordy, Wesley, Gunn crew. The idea of the
episode is quite powerful to me. But the depiction frequently (not always)
falls rather flat to me.
> We get just the barest look at
> what his life looks to be like after the events of "Reunion."
> There's some training for the war to come, some spying and fears
> about not being "ready," some crawls through sewers and
> steam-filled alleys. And there's a fight scene that plays like
> "_Angel_'s Greatest Hits," bringing back the
> stakes-up-the-sleeves from "City Of" and Penn's wall-assisted
> backflip from "Somnambulist." I don't know why he ditches the
> coat, though. That's not cool.
Presumably to signify that he's become somebody else.
This "war" of his. It's not clear to me how much he perceives it to be
against W&H and how much against Darla. His obsession this episode seems to
be Darla. He stalks her. Worries about not being able to get too close to
her. (I guess because he won't have the backbone to kill her if he can
sense her.) And does try to kill her at the end - in a particularly brutal
and ostentatiously uncaring fashion. Yet, he left her alone last episode,
seeming to be quite content to have W&H ravaged by her. And I think "war"
implies a foe with great numbers - not an individual.
I suppose it's not all that important, but it's making Angel's inner
motivations and feelings a tad confusing to me. I'm not sure what exactly
he's trying to transform himself into and why. Though his perceived need
not to feel Darla seems to be part of it.
I guess I'll have to wait and see.
Some of this was rather dull. Probably the worst was the dunking of the
stool pigeon, who strikes me as one of the least convincing characters I've
seen in either series. But the fight was pretty slick.
> The exception to the episode's general stylishness is the subplot
> starring the sidekicks. The actors seem very much off their game,
> Carpenter in particular and during the teaser in particular. It hurts
> a little. I'd say there's only one thing I really liked about this
> whole story; "I for one, would just like to point out the
> patheticness that is us." I'm fine with what Point B ends up being
> for them, but getting there from Point A isn't so nice to watch. The
> pain feels forced, the attempts at banter feel unnatural, and the
> dialogue clunks along. Acceptable is the fact that the show seems
> (crossing my fingers, proverbially speaking) to have realized that if
> one absolutely must do a bad-singing punchline, it should be kept under
> ten seconds.
Ten seconds for them. But don't forget the rather longer lounge performance
of Lady Marmalade we had to put up with. As this series functional
equivalent to the Bronze, it's rather lacking in musical interest.
I guess the former side kicks serve as the (temporary?) repository for
Angel's morality. Sort of his soul on loan while he's not using it.
Otherwise this seems a disconnected story, albeit an important one
considering how much time is devoted to it.
Within that story, again the sentiments in it work pretty well for me. It's
a nice natural progression they go through from stunned shock to finding
their purpose again. I particularly liked the revelation of personal worth
they got at the end of their demon fight.
Gunn: This thing nearly ripped us to shreds.
Cordy: Yeah, but out of everybody here, which one of us is the dead one?
I also liked the Host's response to Cordy asking for guidance. "Oh - I'd
love to tell you, sweetie. But - when the big guys talk, I shut my yap."
Which if you think about it a moment, is the guidance she asked for. And
then having his coat ready as a pillow when Cordy is hit by her vision is a
nice touch.
Mostly, though, these scenes just run on way longer than their content seems
to deserve.
> Virginia gives pointless recurring characters a bad name.
And I liked her in GWBG too. Sheesh. My suspicion is that the entire
purpose of that scene was to let it be known that she has money to burn.
> A lot of the action takes place in Wolfram And Hart's world, where
> the Senior Partners seem to be ready to move on after Holland's fatal
> stupidity. Lindsey and Lilah thus get engaged in highly civilized sort
> of professional battle to the death, except that their job is mostly to
> sit around waiting to be chosen between. This was pretty okay, I
> guess. One thing that weakened it a little was that Romanov's acting
> didn't really click for me this week, though, and I'm not just
> talking about the one scene where *Lilah*'s acting was supposed to be
> less than perfect. But speaking of which, Lindsey's reaction to the
> seduction/framejob attempt is a nice way to cap off a scene that keeps
> the viewer guessing. Smug little bastard, isn't he? The ending
> resolution makes sense from a television standpoint; both characters
> are worth hanging on to, and maybe bouncing them off each other some
> more will be entertaining. Could be.
My favorite Lindsey moment was his irritation when he found that he wasn't
the only one left alive. Generally I enjoyed his testy moments this
episode. Most of the W&H scenes felt flat to me though. Especially that
final one with the less than sinister senior partner. (I assume he's a
senior partner - who else would deliver that message?)
But, again, I like the idea of the developing office politics - and
especially liked their scene with Darla and Dru.
Unfortunately, that nagged at me on a different level. After all the
repeated big deal about W&H's vampire detectors - which we've seen in
action - how did Darla and Dru get to just sit waiting in Lindsey's office?
And then cause Lindsey and Lilah to be dressed down for not telling anyone
about the visit?
> "During my stint as Wolfram & Hart's puppet, something occurred to
> me. I *loathe* being used. If I recall I sent you a fifteen-body-memo
> to that effect." Nice.
Oh, yeah. Darla's definitely the best thing in the episode.
> Also nice is her playing with Lindsey's
> head with her declarations of love; anyone else realize it wasn't
> true before she said so? The rest of the D&D stuff, particularly Darla
> recruiting her army, is pretty boring. I think that particular
> scene's mostly there so we can see Angel watching and affecting her.
> Drusilla throws words that she heard in a totally different context
> back at her at one point, since ME shows love doing that (I like it
> too), "you'll never be alone again."
I wasn't bored by these scenes, but I was thrown by them at times. I wonder
what's going on in Darla's head. She's clearly far from over Angel. It
seems quite obsessive. And perhaps the memories of her human feelings for
him are eating at her badly. This reminds me a little of Angelus after
Innocence, where his obsession with Buffy was in considerable part a
reaction to his memory of his souled feelings. Whatever it is, her stress
is palpable, and I think she sometimes wants to stake Drusilla on the spot.
I very much like the edgy feel of her scenes this episode.
Dru: It reeks of death.
Darla: That's motor oil, Dru.
> One moment in "Redefinition" does manage to ingrain itself into my
> brain, and I'd imagine it's what the episode is remembered for. I
> speak, of course, of Angel, cigarette in hand, setting up a little fire
> for the vamp chicks. They really look like they've been through hell
> physically and emotionally afterward too. Finally, the world has a
> hero who'll incinerate young women in the name of justice, or
> revenge, or whatever. Even better than the flames, actually, is the
> timing on Darla's "Angel? Angelus?" Unanswered, of course, but
> she ends up classifying their enemy as neither one nor the other.
> Don't know what it all means, but it makes an impression.
It's a good, though very disturbing scene. I liked how Darla noticed the
distance that Angel kept between them. But the look on Angel's face and the
indifferent cruelty of it all is kind of upsetting. I know that there's
always a tendency to feel sympathy for the damsel in a story, but there's
something unusually odd to me about ending in a position where one feels the
pain of a demon pretty fresh off a mass killing spree. Perhaps that's
because arrayed against her - seen across a floor strewn with his own recent
kills - is one with a greater potential for mass killing than her. We're
edging into some pretty uncomfortable moral territory here.
> Despite the few arresting images like that, though, not a whole lot
> that's deeply interesting really goes on in "Redefinition." That
> combined with the awkward Wyndam-Pryce Investigations story means that
> I can't in good conscience rank it higher than Decent. It may not
> quite be fair to call the bulk of the show a throwaway given that
> things do, in fact, move along with the W&H lawyers and with WPI. But
> in the long run, my thoughts pretty much boil down to one summary
> sentence: what with one thing and another, forty-five minutes passed.
>
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: It exists.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
I'm a little torn on this. I think the content of ideas puts it in a pretty
solid Good category, and the Darla scenes in particular work well for me.
On the other hand, I did spend a lot of time just waiting for things to move
on. For such a mood piece, it sure didn't seem able to sustain mood very
long. So I think Decent is probably the right rating - albeit a high
Decent.
OBS
Clairel
--I'm writing this having not rewatched "Redefinition" recently. I'll
take your word for it that there are some good Dru lines; there always
were good Dru lines in the season 2 AtS episodes in which she appeared.
But what sticks in my memory after all this time is Dru wordlessly
ripping off that one demon's ears. That's probably my favorite moment
in the episode (aside from Angel[us] and the cigarette). So I'm a bit
surprised to read AOQ stating that the demon army recruitment scenes
were the dullest part of the episode. I thought they were way cool.
Darla terrorizing the W&H lawyers and messing with Lindsay's head was
also memorable and very well done. And I loved the drunken MoG and
their bad singing.
So I agree with the above post that this episode merits better than a
"Decent." It's not one of my all time top favorite AtS episodes, but
it's certainly a "Good" for me.
Clairel
William George Ferguson
And a good reason why Lilah should be a little less 'together' than her
usual. As crazy, devious, and backstabbing as Darla is, Lindsey still got
the sane, rational, dependable one as his champion. Lilah's alive because
Dru likes her.
--
HERBERT
1996 - 1997
Beloved Mascot
Delightful Meal
He fed the Pack
A little
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> final one with the less than sinister senior partner. (I assume he's a
> senior partner - who else would deliver that message?)
the senior partners remain offscreen
hes just higher up the food chain
sorry meant higher in the hierarchy
> Unfortunately, that nagged at me on a different level. After all the
> repeated big deal about W&H's vampire detectors - which we've seen in
> action - how did Darla and Dru get to just sit waiting in Lindsey's office?
i assumed they had been given some kind of pass for their earlier visits
and they forgot to revoke the passes
Elisi
In 'Reunion' security is talking about an 'untagged' vampire (Angel)
coming into the building. I guess Darla and Dru still had their tags.
Jeff Jacoby
>
> Apteryx wrote:
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
[snip]
>> > "During my stint as Wolfram & Hart's puppet, something occurred to
>> > me. I *loathe* being used. If I recall I sent you a fifteen-body-memo
>> > to that effect." Nice. Also nice is her playing with Lindsey's
>> > head with her declarations of love; anyone else realize it wasn't
>> > true before she said so? The rest of the D&D stuff, particularly Darla
>> > recruiting her army, is pretty boring.
>>
>> I'd say that was the dullest part of the episode. Though we do get some nice
>> lines from Dru coming out of it.
>
> --I'm writing this having not rewatched "Redefinition" recently. I'll
> take your word for it that there are some good Dru lines; there always
> were good Dru lines in the season 2 AtS episodes in which she appeared.
> But what sticks in my memory after all this time is Dru wordlessly
> ripping off that one demon's ears. That's probably my favorite moment
> in the episode (aside from Angel[us] and the cigarette). So I'm a bit
> surprised to read AOQ stating that the demon army recruitment scenes
> were the dullest part of the episode. I thought they were way cool.
Nah. The dullest part was the lame training montage. I half
expected the "Rocky" theme to burst forth (while Angel chases
chickens). Lame lame lame.
Jeff
Clairel
--Are you talking about Merl? Was Merl in this episode? Merl was
great! What do you mean, "least convincing characters"? Why?
AOQ, you didn't mention Merl, did you? What do you think of Merl? I
know he has shown up in other episodes before this one.
Clairel
> seen in either series. But the fight was pretty slick.
S
One Bit Shy
news:1151356810.3...@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
>
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>> Some of this was rather dull. Probably the worst was the dunking of the
>> stool pigeon, who strikes me as one of the least convincing characters
>
> --Are you talking about Merl? Was Merl in this episode? Merl was
> great! What do you mean, "least convincing characters"? Why?
Yes, Merl. I think this is the first time he's shown up since the season
opener.
For whatever reason, he speaks in nothing but stool pigeon cliches. "That's
all I know, man, I swear." "You didn't hear this from me." With a voice
and attitude that's supposed to be every sniveling snitch we've ever seen on
film and TV, except that it comes across to me totally fake and affected - a
bad imitation. That may all be intentional - I don't know. But it doesn't
work for me. Just seems dumb.
OBS
Arbitrar Of Quality
> The voiceovers are kind of problematic to me, and representative of my
> feelings for the whole episode.
>
> The sentiments expressed are frequently very good. Intriguing. Ominous.
> Disturbing. A lot of mood stuff, as you observed.
>
> But their actual recitation is so understated as to be bland, tending to
> deflate mood rather than enhance it.
Ah, element as microcosm of episode. I love doing that, and I'd agree
here.
> This "war" of his. It's not clear to me how much he perceives it to be
> against W&H and how much against Darla. His obsession this episode seems to
> be Darla. He stalks her. Worries about not being able to get too close to
> her. (I guess because he won't have the backbone to kill her if he can
> sense her.) And does try to kill her at the end - in a particularly brutal
> and ostentatiously uncaring fashion. Yet, he left her alone last episode,
> seeming to be quite content to have W&H ravaged by her. And I think "war"
> implies a foe with great numbers - not an individual.
>
> I suppose it's not all that important, but it's making Angel's inner
> motivations and feelings a tad confusing to me. I'm not sure what exactly
> he's trying to transform himself into and why. Though his perceived need
> not to feel Darla seems to be part of it.
>
> I guess I'll have to wait and see.
I don't get what's in his head either, and I don't really think we're
supposed to yet. In fact, notice that even in this thread there
doesn't seem to be a consensus on whether or not he was trying to kill
D&D; I originally thought it was mind games, but the latter makes more
sense when thinking about it.
> I wasn't bored by these scenes, but I was thrown by them at times. I wonder
> what's going on in Darla's head. She's clearly far from over Angel. It
> seems quite obsessive. And perhaps the memories of her human feelings for
> him are eating at her badly.
Obviously all the stuff with human-Darla was worthwhile in its own
right, and as a trigger for Angel's descent into psudeo-darkness. But
given the way ME shows work, I'm also thinking it'll end up surfacing
again in some way.
-AOQ
Lord Usher
news:1151347473.1...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com:
> In 'Reunion' security is talking about an 'untagged' vampire (Angel)
> coming into the building. I guess Darla and Dru still had their tags.
Except the untagged vampire in "Reunion" turned out to be Darla, not Angel,
so we know she didn't have one. Indeed, she hadn't had any dealings with
W&H since rising as a vampire, so there wouldn't have been any opportunity
for her to get one.
I believe Tim Minear mentioned at one point that this was the reason for
Lindsey's "What are you looking at?" scene with the vampire and his lawyer.
The idea was, there were other untagged vampires in the building that day,
and D&D had gotten in under their cover like Angel did in "Blind Date."
--
Lord Usher
"I'm here to kill you, not to judge you."
cry...@panix.com
> Anu. Gur qhyyrfg cneg jnf gur ynzr genvavat zbagntr. V unys
> rkcrpgrq gur "Ebpxl" gurzr gb ohefg sbegu (juvyr Natry punfrf
> puvpxraf). Ynzr ynzr ynzr.
Ng juvpu cbvag lbh jbhyq ynl qbja naq jnvg sbe vg gb tb njnl?
--
-Crystal
George W Harris
<wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote:
:And a good reason why Lilah should be a little less 'together' than her
:usual. As crazy, devious, and backstabbing as Darla is, Lindsey still got
:the sane, rational, dependable one as his champion. Lilah's alive because
:Dru likes her.
Would have been interesting if Dru had sired her. I
wonder how that would have affected her W&H career?
:--
: HERBERT
: 1996 - 1997
: Beloved Mascot
: Delightful Meal
: He fed the Pack
: A little
--
"The truths of mathematics describe a bright and clear universe,
exquisite and beautiful in its structure, in comparison with
which the physical world is turbid and confused."
-Eulogy for G.H.Hardy
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
cry...@panix.com
> Are you talking about Merl? Was Merl in this episode? Merl was
> great! What do you mean, "least convincing characters"? Why?
I know he's basically a cliche with a demon twist, but I can't
help loving Merl. Poor lovable demony Merl!
--
-Crystal
George W Harris
:> The drinking of Gunn, Cordy, and Wes, on the other hand, was
:> wonderfully funny and incisive stuff.
Okay, I interpreted the drinking of Gunn, Cordy
and Wes as the drinking of Kate in TSoR, and couldn't
remember when that happened.
:>
:> -Dan Damouth
--
/bud...@nirvana.net/h:k
George W Harris
wrote:
:My favorite Lindsey moment was his irritation when he found that he wasn't
:the only one left alive. Generally I enjoyed his testy moments this
:episode. Most of the W&H scenes felt flat to me though. Especially that
:final one with the less than sinister senior partner. (I assume he's a
:senior partner - who else would deliver that message?)
Would a Senior Partner actually deliver his own
message? That's what errand boys are for.
--
"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar." -Wash, 'Serenity'
One Bit Shy
news:lcq0a2lsa7kn8m657...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:15:47 -0400, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry>
> wrote:
>
> :My favorite Lindsey moment was his irritation when he found that he
> wasn't
> :the only one left alive. Generally I enjoyed his testy moments this
> :episode. Most of the W&H scenes felt flat to me though. Especially that
> :final one with the less than sinister senior partner. (I assume he's a
> :senior partner - who else would deliver that message?)
>
> Would a Senior Partner actually deliver his own
> message? That's what errand boys are for.
Well, they have to tell somebody. They might tell it to the new executive
vice presidents.
I have no idea. The details of the SP haven't been explained. Alas,
neither was that guy in the room at the end - though he did keep speaking in
terms of what "we" will do, including deciding to promote them.
OBS
Apteryx
> wrote:
>
> :My favorite Lindsey moment was his irritation when he found that he
> wasn't
> :the only one left alive. Generally I enjoyed his testy moments this
> :episode. Most of the W&H scenes felt flat to me though. Especially that
> :final one with the less than sinister senior partner. (I assume he's a
> :senior partner - who else would deliver that message?)
>
> Would a Senior Partner actually deliver his own
> message? That's what errand boys are for.
He seems more than an errand boy (or a very Senior Errand Boy if he is one).
He talks of the Senior Partners either as if he were one, or as if he were
in direct contact with them and chosen by them to speak for them. But an
organisation that has Senior Partners by implication also has Junior
Partners (generally just called Partners). He could be one of them, which
would let him get away with being less than sinister. Be ur vf whfg n FRO bs
gur fnzr fbeg nf Rir naq Znephf Unzvygba va frnfba svir.
--
Apteryx
Arbitrar Of Quality
But this guy seems to outrank Lindsey, who was promoted to Junior
Partner after "Blind Date" (mentioned at the beginning of "To Shanshu
In L.A.").
-AOQ
One Bit Shy
And continues to outrank him after yet another promotion.
--
OBS
Bitter sounds better on a stolen guitar
--David Bowie
Apteryx
You're right, at least if Cordy is sufficiently knowledgeable about the
career structure within W&H to be authoritative on that point (I think
its
just Cordy who says his promotion makes him a junior partner). Which
would
mean either that all the management team at W&H from Lindsey on up are
at
least junior partners, but with gradations of seniority between them
depending on their management level, or else the new guy is something
more,
perhaps a Senior Partner, but he and the show are being remarkably
discrete
about it, like not saying that he is.
--
Apteryx
Paul Hyett
>On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:18:12 -0700, William George Ferguson
><wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>
>:And a good reason why Lilah should be a little less 'together' than her
>:usual. As crazy, devious, and backstabbing as Darla is, Lindsey still got
>:the sane, rational, dependable one as his champion. Lilah's alive because
>:Dru likes her.
>
> Would have been interesting if Dru had sired her. I
>wonder how that would have affected her W&H career?
I don't see why it would.
--
Paul 'Charts Fan' Hyett
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Paul Hyett <p...@nojunkmailplease.co.uk> wrote:
wolfram and hart seem bigoted against previously-breathing americans
theyll take them as clients if they have money
or might be useful in an apocalypse
but otherwise donbt seem to like them
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
i dont think wolfram and har is structured like other law firms
William George Ferguson
wrote:
Here's how I break down the Lawyer-structure at W&H (there's probably an
entirely separate business-structure
The Senior Partners - who we haven't seen yet (hint, if you haven't seen
someone who looks lupine, ovine, or cervidine, you probably haven't seen a
Senior Partner)
The Partners (or General Partners) folks like Holland Manners. The guy
addressing the surviving LMs was likely also a Partner
Junior Partners - Lindsey and Lilah after season 1
Associates - all three LMs in season 1
There are also specific job titles, separate from the lawyer rankings,
although specific jobs would likely be filled only from a specific lawyer
ranking. At this point, Lindsey and Lilah remain Junior Partners, although
they are sharing the responsibilities of at least one of Manners' jobs.
Presumably whichever one wins out will be promoted to Partner in addition
to becoming the more or less permanent department director.
JJ Karhu
<wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>Gur Fravbe Cnegaref - jub jr unira'g frra lrg (uvag, vs lbh unira'g frra
>fbzrbar jub ybbxf yhcvar, bivar, be preivqvar, lbh cebonoyl unira'g frra n
>Fravbe Cnegare)
Lrc, gung'f n fbeg bs n fcbvyre. V gubhtug vg jnf n terng zbzrag va
gur frevrf jura gur Jbys, Enz naq Uneg guvat jnf "fcryyrq bhg".
// JJ
Clairel
--The cliches are part of what makes him so amusing. He's like the
William Sanderson shoe-shine guy in the "Naked Gun" movies, only
demony. Which makes Merl all the more amusing.
Clairel