AOQ Angel Review 2-10: "Reunion"
Arbitrar Of Quality
episodes in these review threads.
ANGEL
Season Two, Episode 10: "Reunion"
(or "Stain the earth... RED!")
Writers: Tim Minear and Shawn Ryan
Director: James A. Contner
To start things off, let's take a breath and take inventory on where
we are. No, not us, I'm just mentioning that the teaser seems to
mainly exist to fill in anyone who missed the last episode or two on
the plot. Although I did enjoy "man, somehow that weirds me out more
than the bloodsucking thing," I don't really think it's necessary
to play up the parental side of siring, given how many vampires become
their sires' lover. So, mild 'ew' there.
Oh, while we're at it, the show does address one of my questions from
the previous episode regarding the consensuality of that big sucking
thing. "She didn't want to. You think that you can resist, but then
it's too late." There ya go.
Angel's determination to "save" Darla from rising again, again,
is good writing, and I thought the hunt for her worked pretty well.
Anyone not know that Dru would attack him from behind before the
attempted staking? Some good energetic battles here. Once she's
back, Darla seems avoidant of everyone, and it's hard to say how much
of the souled version is in this new/old character. On the one hand,
her first word is "Angel," and she's interesting to watch her
looking so confused. On the other, one drink seems to bring her right
back on the evil scale to where she was when we first met her, so why
bother with the in-between stuff? I don't really get the part in
which Drusilla abruptly starts crying out of nowhere, right before
that.
Quoting without further comment other than "heh:" "Grandmother
is very pleased with it. I can tell. Aren't you, Grandmother... my
daughter?" "Can she hear you?" "She's *dead.*"
This episode, given the things that happen in it, had the potential to
be another defining highlight of the series on the caliber of "The
Trial." Long story short, it's not, although it's certainly well
worth watching. I have two main complaints, and one of them is that
"Reunion" is positively crawling with pacing issues. Okay, we get
that the lawyers are standing around and being evil - next slide,
please. Is it a good thing that I have to rack my brain and the
transcript just to remember the sequence of events? (No.) What,
Angel's just now getting to the clothing store? Geez, are we still
on that? Meanwhile, D&D are circling their future meals, talking, and
talking, and the scene just keeps going on... is everyone just going to
keep repeating the same general lines over and over? Then our antihero
arrives and suddenly Holland's calling for help as if they're just
about to chow down. The show is also full of diversions and tangents
that detract more than help. For instance, I'm guessing the suicidal
guy was supposed to give us a heads-up on Angel's mental state and
represent the things that nudge him towards his big climactic decision,
but in the final product, the incident just feels out of place.
At least a few diversions are worthwhile; consider the evil bit of fun
with Darla and Drusilla shopping. I don't know if I'll ever fully
recover from "oh. I'm ringing. Do you hear it? I'm ringing - all
over!" You people may sometimes wonder about my sense of humor,
given that I of course have none. Well, that line is drop-dead
hilarious, one of the brightest comedic gems in the whole of the
Buffyverse.
Kate's brief scene is also a relevant side trip. She frames her
return to the side of helping the good guys as a pragmatic issue -
seems reasonable. Angel has the capacity to stop the killings that the
mere mortals probably don't. This is a decent enough little exchange
on its own, but then thinking back on it knowing that Angel's going
to let her (and everyone else) down in the end... hmm indeed.
Okay, so Wolfram and Hart have vampires working for them, and
couldn't conceive
of the possibility that said vampires might ever turn on them? Or
rather, they could conceive of it, since co-workers have been warning
Lindsey about Darla for a long time, so I really don't get it. It
seems like pretty gross stupidity, which doesn't match with the rest
of what the writers have been trying to do with Holland. It also
doesn't make sense the way they keep turning down chances to kill
Angel, just because. Unless they're obsessed with the idea of
getting an Evil Angel on their side, but it still seems like a lot of
risk relative to the gain. Especially since he'd end up turning on
them sooner or later too. Well, at least Holland is dead and hopefully
gone... but it seems strange to kill off our other supporting/developed
baddies too. Of course we, and by "we" I mean "I," don't
know for sure at this point whether Lindsey and/or Lilah might have
been spared.
I was thinking that what this episode really needed was another
memorable ending, given all the major events that it tried to set up.
And damned if it didn't provide one. I'm not sure why Angel
bothered to come all the way to the house to dramatically stride away,
but maybe he hadn't quite made up his mind until that moment. Our
gentlemanly vampire detective is now willing to let people be
slaughtered, if he decides that they're the wrong people. That would
seem to be the obvious choice for an episode-ending image, but I think
it ultimately works better as presented, with the coda back at the
Hyperion, closing with "you're all fired." That's very new and
different. The show still manages to make me smile in dark times with
"you just walked away?" "No, I walked to my car and then I drove
away." Cordelia looks like she's about to cry; Angel's really
become the center of her life, I suppose.
To finish things off, let's take a breath and take inventory on where
we are. As I've explained, I had a few problems with "Reunion,"
but I don't want to devalue that ending. It's a gamble going this
route, but if ME can do it right, those last two scenes could be the
best things that've ever happened to this series. Other than
Drusilla with the cell phone, of course. _Angel_ is taking us to some
very dark places in a personal way, stories the likes of which I
can't remember seeing in the Buffyverse. I'm definitely
interested. I wonder how far in advance this was planned out?
>From "The Trial:"
CORDELIA: Yes, but you were just soulless bloodsucking demons, they're
lawyers.
ANGEL: She's right. We were amateurs.
>From "Are You Now...:"
THESULAC: Hey, you know what? There is an entire hotel here just full
of tortured souls that could really use your help. What do you say?
ANGEL: Take them all.
>From "To Shanshu In L.A.:"
WESLEY: We live, we grow, we change. But Angel...
CORDELIA: Can't do any of those things.
So...
One-sentence summary: A good story with a questionable delivery
AOQ rating: Good
[Season Two so far:
1) "Judgment" - Weak
2) "Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been?" - Decent
3) "First Impressions" - Good
4) "Untouched" - Good
5) "Dear Boy" - Good
6) "Guise Will Be Guise" - Decent
7) "Darla" - Good
8) "The Shroud Of Rahmon" - Decent
9) "The Trial" - Excellent
10) "Reunion" - Good]
Elisi
> It's a gamble going this
> route, but if ME can do it right, those last two scenes could be the
> best things that've ever happened to this series. Other than
> Drusilla with the cell phone, of course. _Angel_ is taking us to some
> very dark places in a personal way, stories the likes of which I
> can't remember seeing in the Buffyverse. I'm definitely
> interested. I wonder how far in advance this was planned out?
No idea. A good while I should say. Remember everyone telling you to
wait for S2? *g* I love the darkness btw. It also goes to show what an
impossibly bad match Angel is for Buffy. I mean if she could see him
now? But I must run, so I'll just point back to this bit from 'Guise
Will Be Guise':
Angel and Magev are staff fighting on a covered bridge.
Magev: "You're holding back. What are you afraid off?"
Angel: "Nothing."
Magev: "You're whimping. This isn't River Dance. Fight!"
Angel: "I am fighting!"
Magev: "Yourself. You're fighting yourself. Fight me! Why are you
holding back? Why can't you let go?"
Angel: "Because."
Magev: "Why?"
Angel over their locked staffs: "If I let it, it'll kill you."
Magev: "It?"
Angel disengages and steps back: "The demon."
Magev: "Ha! But the demon is you!"
Angel: "No."
Magev: "Yes! That's the thing you spend so much energy trying to
conceal!"
Angel shakes his head: "No, I just - I can't let it control me."
Magev nods: "Ah. I see. (Hits Angel's knee hard then hooks the staff
behind his legs to drop him onto his back) You *don't* think it
controls you?"
It would seem Angel finally stopped fighting himself...
kenm47
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for future _Buffy_ and _Angel_
> episodes in these review threads.
>
>
> ANGEL
> Season Two, Episode 10: "Reunion"
> (or "Stain the earth... RED!")
> Writers: Tim Minear and Shawn Ryan
> Director: James A. Contner
>
<SNIP>
Haven't rewatched yet (but yes, Dru's little fugues are, IMO, just a
treat). And in memory this is my AtS high point so "Excellent."
A thought I had (Original? I don't know. Maybe read it here eons ago)
knowing we were heading here. As far as we know human Darla IS the same
as 400 years ago human Darla, human soul-wise. Is this Vamp Darla the
same demon soul that was in Darla BtVS S1? Or a newly deposited demon
soul informed by what second time round human souled Darla remembered
of her former human and later vampire self? And thus just a xerox
parading as vamp Darla? Maybe it is "our" Darla, which is why it seemed
to take a tad longer for her rebirth to actually summon that particular
demon soul from somewhere? But that would mean Buffy has never actually
"killed" a vampire, that the demon soul survives the dusting and rests
in some purgatory somewhere awaiting being implanted anew in another
husk?
Too much thinking?
It seems to me that this reincarnated new vamp Darla is more proof that
BtVS lied to us in Lie to Me and elsewhere, that Billy Fordham was
right, that despite the human perceived downside of vampirism, "The
Lonely Ones" are just the human made immortal (and nasty, and subject
to "death" of certain kinds).
Oh, and one more thing, as I noted a gazillion years ago (it seems)
when this ep first aired, what kind of room is that with that silly
sliding lock on the outside of the doors? That almost cost it the
Excellent I gave it.
[And now begins the discussions of whether Angel allowed any "innocent"
non-W&H connected non-lawyers (caterers, waitresses, whatever, even
Holland's wife) to die at the fangs of D&D.]
Ken (Brooklyn)
Stephen Tempest
> I don't really think it's necessary
>to play up the parental side of siring, given how many vampires become
>their sires' lover. So, mild 'ew' there.
Maybe 'ew' is the desired reaction?
>Oh, while we're at it, the show does address one of my questions from
>the previous episode regarding the consensuality of that big sucking
>thing. "She didn't want to. You think that you can resist, but then
>it's too late." There ya go.
Told you. :)
> I don't really get the part in
>which Drusilla abruptly starts crying out of nowhere, right before
>that.
You mean: "All alone. All alone in the dirt. We've lost our way and
the little wormy won't dance if he's told to." ? She's upset that
Darla isn't overjoyed at being brought back to [un]life by her
granddaughter/mother. She's re-living how horrible it is to be dead
and alone.
Also, she's a nutjob. You expect rationality?
> Meanwhile, D&D are circling their future meals, talking, and
>talking, and the scene just keeps going on... is everyone just going to
>keep repeating the same general lines over and over? Then our antihero
>arrives and suddenly Holland's calling for help as if they're just
>about to chow down.
Huh. That's probably the most tense, gripping and emotion-packed
scene in the entire season... and you found it slow. You're
incorrigible. <g>
I see it as Holland's line from earlier... "Don't make any sudden
moves" writ large. The lawyers are packed into a cellar with two
dangerous vampires, and the only thing they *can* do is talk, and try
to stall, and pretend that everyone's friends here, and try to keep
the panic out of their voices as they make 'polite conversation' and
hope desperately that someone will come to save them before it's too
late....
"People huddled together, crouching in fear."
"Yes, yes I imagine that's what it would have been like in a war."
"No, now. She means now."
And then Angel shows up - and for the first and last time in his life
Holland is pathetically glad to see him...
Oops.
>At least a few diversions are worthwhile; consider the evil bit of fun
>with Darla and Drusilla shopping. I don't know if I'll ever fully
>recover from "oh. I'm ringing. Do you hear it? I'm ringing - all
>over!"
Plus Darla's exasperated body language and Dru's next line. "Huh.
Forgot about that." The moments when Dru *doesn't* act crazy are
sometimes just as good...
>Okay, so Wolfram and Hart have vampires working for them, and
>couldn't conceive
>of the possibility that said vampires might ever turn on them?
I'm sure they've got all kinds of safeguards and protections when they
think they need them. Holland's own home is safe, of course, because
how would an uninvited vampire ever get in?
The keyword here, I think, is 'arrogance'.
> It also
>doesn't make sense the way they keep turning down chances to kill
>Angel, just because. Unless they're obsessed with the idea of
>getting an Evil Angel on their side, but it still seems like a lot of
>risk relative to the gain. Especially since he'd end up turning on
>them sooner or later too.
The Senior Partners play a long game. What's a few dead lawyers if
you're planning an Apocalypse? One in which the prophecies state
Angel has a part to play?
TIRSBILA moments:
"I saw you coming, my lovely. The moon showed me. It told me to come
into the 20th century."
"It's the 21st century, Dru."
"Is it? [pouts] I'm still lagging."
The driver telling D&D to get a room...
>AOQ rating: Good
Easily one of the 5 best episodes of the series for me.
Stephen
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> This episode, given the things that happen in it, had the potential
> to be another defining highlight of the series on the caliber of "The
> Trial." Long story short, it's not, although it's certainly well
> worth watching. I have two main complaints, and one of them is that
> "Reunion" is positively crawling with pacing issues. Okay, we get
> that the lawyers are standing around and being evil - next slide,
> please. Is it a good thing that I have to rack my brain and the
> transcript just to remember the sequence of events? (No.) What,
> Angel's just now getting to the clothing store? Geez, are we still
> on that? Meanwhile, D&D are circling their future meals, talking,
> and talking, and the scene just keeps going on... is everyone just
> going to keep repeating the same general lines over and over? Then
> our antihero arrives and suddenly Holland's calling for help as if
> they're just about to chow down. The show is also full of
> diversions and tangents that detract more than help. For instance,
> I'm guessing the suicidal guy was supposed to give us a heads-up on
> Angel's mental state and represent the things that nudge him towards
> his big climactic decision, but in the final product, the incident
> just feels out of place.
The suicidal guy gave me the first real evidence that the "Powers That
Be" are evil, manipulating the situation to their own ends. (I had
suspected it earlier. Never trust any "Powers".) Angel had a real
chance to catch Dru and Darla at Wolfram and Hart, but instead the
Powers send Cordy a vision that sends them off across town on a wild
goose chase, thereby getting a whole lot of innocent people killed.
(I'm talking about the folks in the store, and any other incidental
bodies that D&D piled up along the way, not the lawyers in the basement.)
> Okay, so Wolfram and Hart have vampires working for them, and
> couldn't conceive of the possibility that said vampires might
> ever turn on them?
Maybe Holland was expecting a little professional courtesy.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Espen Schjønberg
>
> The suicidal guy gave me the first real evidence that the "Powers That
> Be" are evil, manipulating the situation to their own ends. (I had
> suspected it earlier. Never trust any "Powers".) Angel had a real
> chance to catch Dru and Darla at Wolfram and Hart, but instead the
> Powers send Cordy a vision that sends them off across town on a wild
> goose chase, thereby getting a whole lot of innocent people killed.
> (I'm talking about the folks in the store, and any other incidental
> bodies that D&D piled up along the way, not the lawyers in the basement.)
I think the humans are just expendable in this universe, not necessarily
meaning the PTB to be evil. They are fighting a war and not having the
total upper hand like the most popular mythologies says.
To accept casualties when you regard the options as worse, is it evil?
Interesting question. But say they can really see the two time lines(and
more of course), and can see there will be fewer casualties this way?
Are you sure?
--
Espen
lili...@gmail.com
I guess that one of the things that interests me most about this ep is
that it shows how dangerous Angel is. That moment where Angel murders
those lawyers, the waiting staff, the girl and/or boyfriends of the
lawyers in question... by locking them in with Darla and Drusilla is
chilling, because it shows how deep Angel has fallen.
(remember, Holland did tell Lindsay to bring a date, so I'm pretty damn
sure that the same was the case for several of the other lawyers
there.)
And before someone says that it's not Angel's fault...
If you lock people up with mad dogs, who's fault is it that they die?
Yours or the dogs?
Same case with vampires, lock people in with vampires, you're
sentencing them to death, aka, you're murdering them. No matter how
badly you might try to lay the blame on the weapons you just used.
Lore
lili...@gmail.com
I'm always surprised that there are people who don't think that there
were innocents that died that day. It often sounds like an attempt at
sanitizing Angel, denying the bad he's capable of.
But then for me, part of what makes Angel interesting, is that he's a
bad man, desperately trying to be good. And the harder he tries, the
harder he falls.
Lore
Lord Usher
1D8B1E.141...@news.giganews.com:
> The suicidal guy gave me the first real evidence that the "Powers That
> Be" are evil, manipulating the situation to their own ends. (I had
> suspected it earlier. Never trust any "Powers".) Angel had a real
> chance to catch Dru and Darla at Wolfram and Hart, but instead the
> Powers send Cordy a vision that sends them off across town on a wild
> goose chase, thereby getting a whole lot of innocent people killed.
"A wild goose chase"? It's not like they send him to get a kitten out of a
tree. He saved a man's life.
And that was really the Powers' point, I think -- to show Angel that there
are lots of people out there who need saving, and you can't save them all,
so why not focus on what you *can* do instead of obsessing over what you
can't?
Remember, too, that the Powers are *prescient*. So while it might appear to
us that Angel could've saved the day without their intervention, they might
have known that he'd be too late.
--
Lord Usher
"I'm here to kill you, not to judge you."
Don Sample
Lord Usher <lord_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in news:dsample-
> 1D8B1E.141...@news.giganews.com:
>
> > The suicidal guy gave me the first real evidence that the "Powers That
> > Be" are evil, manipulating the situation to their own ends. (I had
> > suspected it earlier. Never trust any "Powers".) Angel had a real
> > chance to catch Dru and Darla at Wolfram and Hart, but instead the
> > Powers send Cordy a vision that sends them off across town on a wild
> > goose chase, thereby getting a whole lot of innocent people killed.
>
> "A wild goose chase"? It's not like they send him to get a kitten out of a
> tree. He saved a man's life.
People are killing themselves every day in L.A. that the Powers never
bothered about. Why send a vision for that one loser?
> And that was really the Powers' point, I think -- to show Angel that there
> are lots of people out there who need saving, and you can't save them all,
> so why not focus on what you *can* do instead of obsessing over what you
> can't?
>
> Remember, too, that the Powers are *prescient*. So while it might appear to
> us that Angel could've saved the day without their intervention, they might
> have known that he'd be too late.
And by making that "point" they let Darla and Dru kill a whole lot of
innocent people, and drove Angel over the edge, making him an accomplice
to their murder of the Wolfram and Hart Special Projects division. So
if they're so prescient about the whole thing, it must have been their
goal to drive Angel over the edge, which makes them evil in my book.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> Yours or the dogs?
who infected the dogs with rabies?
> Same case with vampires, lock people in with vampires, you're
> sentencing them to death, aka, you're murdering them. No matter how
> badly you might try to lay the blame on the weapons you just used.
Buffy: It's just . Parker's problem with intimacy turns out to be that
he can't get enough of it. And i knew it. I knew what he was. If he were
tied and gagged and left in a cave that vampires happen to frequent it
wouldn't really be like I killed him really
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
lili...@gmail.com
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges schreef:
> > If you lock people up with mad dogs, who's fault is it that they die?
> > Yours or the dogs?
>
> who infected the dogs with rabies?
Who cares. It's not the person that infected the dogs that's
responsible. It's the person who uses the dogs as weapons that is.
Angel knew what Drusilla and Darla would do, he trapped those people in
with them, hence he's 98% responsible, leaving two procent for the fact
that vampires do have some choice in what they do. But since Angel
knows what they're going to do and knowingly and willingly locks those
people in with them, not even leaving them the chance of at least
trying to run away, he's responsible.
>
> > Same case with vampires, lock people in with vampires, you're
> > sentencing them to death, aka, you're murdering them. No matter how
> > badly you might try to lay the blame on the weapons you just used.
>
> Buffy: It's just . Parker's problem with intimacy turns out to be that
> he can't get enough of it. And i knew it. I knew what he was. If he were
> tied and gagged and left in a cave that vampires happen to frequent it
> wouldn't really be like I killed him really
Try and tell that to a court.
Sorry, but this is like leaving someone to drown. Just cause you don't
do the actual act of kililng them, you've still murdered them. Hell,
no, it's like throwing someoen in the river after you've chained them
up and loaded their pockets with metal to make them sink.
Lore
Lord Usher
> In article <Xns97EB950AB26...@216.40.28.72>,
> Lord Usher <lord_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in news:dsample-
>> 1D8B1E.141...@news.giganews.com:
>>
>> > The suicidal guy gave me the first real evidence that the "Powers
>> > That Be" are evil, manipulating the situation to their own ends.
>> > (I had suspected it earlier. Never trust any "Powers".) Angel had
>> > a real chance to catch Dru and Darla at Wolfram and Hart, but
>> > instead the Powers send Cordy a vision that sends them off across
>> > town on a wild goose chase, thereby getting a whole lot of innocent
>> > people killed.
>>
>> "A wild goose chase"? It's not like they send him to get a kitten out
>> of a tree. He saved a man's life.
>
> People are killing themselves every day in L.A. that the Powers never
> bothered about. Why send a vision for that one loser?
Why send Angel any vision ever? Why have him save one guy from a donkey
demon when he could be saving some other guy from a vampire?
Because you can't save everyone, and you have to save someone, and who
are we to say that it shouldn't be this guy? Talk about playing God
unfairly...
>> And that was really the Powers' point, I think -- to show Angel that
>> there are lots of people out there who need saving, and you can't
>> save them all, so why not focus on what you *can* do instead of
>> obsessing over what you can't?
>>
>> Remember, too, that the Powers are *prescient*. So while it might
>> appear to us that Angel could've saved the day without their
>> intervention, they might have known that he'd be too late.
>
> And by making that "point" they let Darla and Dru kill a whole lot of
> innocent people
What part of "the Powers might have been presciently aware that Angel
wouldn't have been able to save those people anyway" did I not make
clear? We don't know that it was a choice between saving one loser and
saving a lot of innocent people; it could just as easily have been a
choice between saving one guy and not saving anyone at all.
> and drove Angel over the edge, making him an accomplice to their
> murder of the Wolfram and Hart Special Projects division.
I hardly think the Powers are responsible for Angel's free choice to
lock those doors, even if they could've seen it coming.
Especially considering they sent him a vision designed to ensure that
*he would be somewhere else* when D&D chowed down.
> So if they're so prescient about the whole thing, it must have been
> their goal to drive Angel over the edge, which makes them evil in my
> book.
Seems to me their goal was to keep Angel away from D&D -- to involve him
in saving other lives, which are just as valuable as the lives that were
lost -- so he *wouldn't* get driven over the edge.
lili...@gmail.com
I have to agree with this. The powers might not care about individual
lives, but they were trying to keep their 'champion' from going over
the edge. Sending him on cases to keep him busy so he wouldn't make the
choice he ended up making.
One of the reasons both the Powers and the SP's are so interested in
Angel, is because neither of them is sure on which side he'll fight.
Even when he's being a good guy, he's only one victim away from going
dark again and the Powers are doing what they can to keep him on their
side.
Lore
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
lili...@gmail.com wrote:
> mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges schreef:
>
> > > If you lock people up with mad dogs, who's fault is it that they die?
> > > Yours or the dogs?
> >
> > who infected the dogs with rabies?
>
> Who cares. It's not the person that infected the dogs that's
> responsible. It's the person who uses the dogs as weapons that is.
wolfram and hart resurrected and resousected darla
and they used her as a weapon
> Angel knew what Drusilla and Darla would do, he trapped those people in
> with them, hence he's 98% responsible, leaving two procent for the fact
> that vampires do have some choice in what they do. But since Angel
> knows what they're going to do and knowingly and willingly locks those
> people in with them, not even leaving them the chance of at least
> trying to run away, he's responsible.
who brought drusilla to town?
who arranged to have darla made a vampiure again?
they got the consequences of their own decisions
lili...@gmail.com
Still not the point. Besides, as I've mentioned in another part of the
thread, those lawyers werent the only ones in the room. There were
innocent people as well, caterers, dates, ...
Lore
Don Sample
lili...@gmail.com wrote:
So why not send him a vision of something that would keep him away from
that basement. The only thing that the vision they sent accomplished
was to ensure that Dru and Darla would reach Holland's basement without
interference. And it delayed Angel just enough to ensure that he would
arrive there at the critical time.
> One of the reasons both the Powers and the SP's are so interested in
> Angel, is because neither of them is sure on which side he'll fight.
> Even when he's being a good guy, he's only one victim away from going
> dark again and the Powers are doing what they can to keep him on their
> side.
And through the interference of the Powers, it now looks like Angel is
leaning to the SP's side.
lili...@gmail.com
Don Sample schreef:
I never said the Powers were perfect*g*
On the other hand...
Vg'f cresrpgyl jryy cbffvoyr gung guvf vf na rneyl fvta bs Wnfzvar'f
vagresrerapr.
Lore
Sam
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> It also
> doesn't make sense the way they keep turning down chances to kill
> Angel, just because. Unless they're obsessed with the idea of
> getting an Evil Angel on their side, but it still seems like a lot of
> risk relative to the gain. Especially since he'd end up turning on
> them sooner or later too. According to the Shanshu prophecy, the vampire with a soul will play a
pivotal role in the Apocalypse. When the final battle between Good and
Evil comes, a huge part of which side wins is going to depend on which
side Angel is fighting for, if you believe that prophecy.
Wolfram and Hart believe the prophecy. They want him evil on judgement
day. *Even if he's not working for them specifically*, because if he's
evil and he helps tip the balance toward darkness in the final battle,
they still win.
So they can't kill him. Not just because they'd be destroying a
potentially very valuable resource for the forces of darkness, but also
possibly because, well, he's destined to live until the apocalypse, for
good or for ill.
Wolfram and Hart think in the long term.
--Sam
Don Sample
lili...@gmail.com wrote:
> Still not the point. Besides, as I've mentioned in another part of the
> thread, those lawyers werent the only ones in the room. There were
> innocent people as well, caterers, dates, ...
>
> Lore
At the time of Darla and Dru's entry into that room, it appears that
everyone else present was a member of Wolfram and Hart's Special
Projects division. Wives, dates, etc. seem to have been shuffled off to
some other part of the house. The only confirmed kill of a non-W&H
employee was Mrs. Manners, who received her fatal injury before Angel
arrived on the scene.
lili...@gmail.com
Don Sample wrote:
> In article <1151098557.5...@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> lili...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Still not the point. Besides, as I've mentioned in another part of the
> > thread, those lawyers werent the only ones in the room. There were
> > innocent people as well, caterers, dates, ...
> >
> > Lore
>
> At the time of Darla and Dru's entry into that room, it appears that
> everyone else present was a member of Wolfram and Hart's Special
> Projects division. Wives, dates, etc. seem to have been shuffled off to
> some other part of the house. The only confirmed kill of a non-W&H
> employee was Mrs. Manners, who received her fatal injury before Angel
> arrived on the scene.
>
Need to rewatch to be sure, but when is this said? That they're
shuffled off the scene I mean. And even then... that still doesn't give
Angel the right to murder those lawyers.
No matter what they've done, as a good guy, Angel should be better than
that.
(of course the fact that he isn't and that he does lock Darla and Dru
in with them, makes him more interesting a character*g*)
Lore
Don Sample
lili...@gmail.com wrote:
> Don Sample wrote:
> > In article <1151098557.5...@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> > lili...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > Still not the point. Besides, as I've mentioned in another part of the
> > > thread, those lawyers werent the only ones in the room. There were
> > > innocent people as well, caterers, dates, ...
> > >
> > > Lore
> >
> > At the time of Darla and Dru's entry into that room, it appears that
> > everyone else present was a member of Wolfram and Hart's Special
> > Projects division. Wives, dates, etc. seem to have been shuffled off to
> > some other part of the house. The only confirmed kill of a non-W&H
> > employee was Mrs. Manners, who received her fatal injury before Angel
> > arrived on the scene.
> >
>
> Need to rewatch to be sure, but when is this said? That they're
> shuffled off the scene I mean.
It's never explicitly stated, but no one other than the lawyers are ever
mentioned as having died in that basement. If there were others, I
think they'd be worth a mention or two.
lili...@gmail.com
Don Sample schreef:
I'm not so sure of that.
Uryy ybbx ng Jvyybj va f6, fur abg bayl zheqrerq Jneera, ohg qvq jub
xabjf jung gb Enpx naq cbffvoyl xvyyrq gung bar gehpxqevire. Lrg gur
bayl ivpgvz gung rire trgf zragvbarq vf Jneera.
Lore
KenM47
>In article <1151098557.5...@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> lili...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Still not the point. Besides, as I've mentioned in another part of the
>> thread, those lawyers werent the only ones in the room. There were
>> innocent people as well, caterers, dates, ...
>>
>> Lore
>
>At the time of Darla and Dru's entry into that room, it appears that
>everyone else present was a member of Wolfram and Hart's Special
>Projects division. Wives, dates, etc. seem to have been shuffled off to
>some other part of the house. The only confirmed kill of a non-W&H
>employee was Mrs. Manners, who received her fatal injury before Angel
>arrived on the scene.
I just rewatched. Unless one dude was an associate pledging in his
suit and apron and serving drinks, there is at least one non-W&H
lawyer in the room when Angel bolts the door from the outside. (I
still ask what is the purpose of a bolt on the outside of the doors to
a wine cellar, even a wine cellar that once was a bomb shelter?)
Ken (Brooklyn)
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
which one?
BTR1701
> he's 98% responsible, leaving two procent for the fact
> that vampires do have some choice in what they do.
In which case, Angel would only be 33% responsible at best.
> > > Same case with vampires, lock people in with vampires, you're
> > > sentencing them to death, aka, you're murdering them. No matter how
> > > badly you might try to lay the blame on the weapons you just used.
> >
> > Buffy: It's just . Parker's problem with intimacy turns out to be that
> > he can't get enough of it. And i knew it. I knew what he was. If he were
> > tied and gagged and left in a cave that vampires happen to frequent it
> > wouldn't really be like I killed him really
>
> Try and tell that to a court.
>
> Sorry, but this is like leaving someone to drown. Just cause you don't
> do the actual act of kililng them, you've still murdered them.
Actually, according to law, you haven't murdered anyone. So long as you
don't push them in the water or keep them from somehow helping
themselves, you can stand there and watch them drown. It's not murder.
It's not anything as far as the criminal law is concerned.
One Bit Shy
news:1151065166.5...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> ANGEL
> Season Two, Episode 10: "Reunion"
> To start things off, let's take a breath and take inventory on where
> we are. No, not us, I'm just mentioning that the teaser seems to
> mainly exist to fill in anyone who missed the last episode or two on
> the plot.
An aspect of that seems to be there - especially with the siring discussion
you mention. And probably detracts from the scene some. Some things work
ok. Like, "Way too many pronouns here," as lead in to telling everybody
about Drusilla. But it gets dragged out a little. Like the time spent
bringing Gunn up to speed.
However, I think the intent is to simply show what's next after last
episode's ending. A continuation rather than a recap - it's just that the
continuation is back at the hotel involving people who didn't know the news.
Whatever the intent, the start struck me as a lot of thrashing around for
not much payoff. The only notable moment to me was grabbing the stake.
Trying to stake Darla before she rises is an urgent objective that drives
the story along. Though even there I don't know why he had to hunt for a
stake when later he just pulls one out from his weapons cabinet and hands it
to Cordy. And then they do... well, not much but putter about for a while.
Finding out what time the sun sets and rises and that Lindsey's secretary
says he's in a meeting has got to be the lamest bit of research we've seen
on this show.
I don't want to overstate this. The early scenes are neither that bad, nor
that important. But I think they illustrate a kind of sloppy thrashing
about through most of the episode that prevents it from being as good as I
think it ought to be. Whatever else the episode is, it's not taut.
> Although I did enjoy "man, somehow that weirds me out more
> than the bloodsucking thing," I don't really think it's necessary
> to play up the parental side of siring, given how many vampires become
> their sires' lover. So, mild 'ew' there.
There's nothing about this that elicits an 'ew' or even much interest from
me. Honestly, I don't understand why it does with others. (And this goes
for the whole vampire genre - not just this series and buffy.) The birthing
metaphor wouldn't seem to really extend that far to my eyes.
What's interesting is the specific relationship of Darla and Drusilla, which
goes to their personalities and past history. Dru is plain nuts and of
course is drawn to the notion of being mummy to grandmum. (Liked her
carrying the baby doll around.) One part of her personality that they seem
to be playing up more here than in the past is Dru's childlike qualities.
The girl who loves to play with her dolls is all giddy at getting to play
real mummy to her gandmum. (I can't help but note, however, that she didn't
seem to display that attitude towards Spike, who she also sired.)
Darla, on the other hand, I don't think is so enamored with the notion. Not
because of the weirdness of the generational relationship, but because it's
Drusilla. I recall how annoyed she was in the past that Dru would call her
grandmum. And how she seemed to tolerate Dru - for Angel's sake - rather
than genuinely like her. (I don't think I got around to mentioning in
Darla - the episode - how I felt a little sorry for Darla getting stuck as
matriarch to Dru and, especially, Spike after Angel got his soul. When she
disliked even being around them.) Having Dru, of all people, sire her the
second time has got to be galling to her on some level.
> Angel's determination to "save" Darla from rising again, again,
> is good writing, and I thought the hunt for her worked pretty well.
> Anyone not know that Dru would attack him from behind before the
> attempted staking? Some good energetic battles here. Once she's
> back, Darla seems avoidant of everyone, and it's hard to say how much
> of the souled version is in this new/old character.
Souled? Unless I missed something, I have no reason to think there's any
soul involved. There is memory and personality though, and the retained
obsession with Angel. One, evidently, now remembered as Angel rather than
Angelus. I suppose that could conceivably lead to a Spike like flirtation
with putting on a good face, but it doesn't seem very soul like to me.
> On the one hand,
> her first word is "Angel," and she's interesting to watch her
> looking so confused. On the other, one drink seems to bring her right
> back on the evil scale to where she was when we first met her, so why
> bother with the in-between stuff? I don't really get the part in
> which Drusilla abruptly starts crying out of nowhere, right before
> that.
I took that period as general confusion and conflicted feelings as she
sought some kind of anchor in her newly vampired self. Lots of stuff.
Remembering that she had just accepted death before being turned. All the
confusing feelings for Angel that had been leaning one direction but now
don't fit with her vampire self. Wondering what the hell Drusilla thinks
she's doing messing with her life like this. (Perhaps she assumes that Dru
has become a W&H lackey - and we see soon enough what her attitude towards
W&H is.)
Probably other things. It's a jumble. And a very jumbled series of scenes
that add to the general sense of thrashing about. In this case quite
literally as, for example, Darla goes and grabs Dru, seemingly just so she
can knock her around for a while. This part doesn't bother me though.
Because of the above, there's a weird sense to it. And it has several
moments I enjoy a lot. Darla jumping off the building. Grabbing Dru from
W&H. ("Healthy attachments, Lindsey." LOL) And Darla finally getting
ahold of herself when she sees that Drusilla is nothing more than the same
old Dru that she can deal with as always. (It's amusing that Dru's
craziness lets Darla be sane.) I especially like the happy Dru touching
Darla's nose after she fed and saying, "You're all new again."
> Quoting without further comment other than "heh:" "Grandmother
> is very pleased with it. I can tell. Aren't you, Grandmother... my
> daughter?" "Can she hear you?" "She's *dead.*"
"She's dead," cracked me up. Dru explaining the obvious to Lindsely, like
he's the one who's nuts, is just rich.
> This episode, given the things that happen in it, had the potential to
> be another defining highlight of the series on the caliber of "The
> Trial." Long story short, it's not, although it's certainly well
> worth watching. I have two main complaints, and one of them is that
> "Reunion" is positively crawling with pacing issues. Okay, we get
> that the lawyers are standing around and being evil - next slide,
> please. Is it a good thing that I have to rack my brain and the
> transcript just to remember the sequence of events? (No.) What,
> Angel's just now getting to the clothing store? Geez, are we still
> on that? Meanwhile, D&D are circling their future meals, talking, and
> talking, and the scene just keeps going on... is everyone just going to
> keep repeating the same general lines over and over?
I think the lines are better than that. From how thoughtful of Lilah to
moisturize to the people cellar to the Angel-beast (nice hiss), I enjoyed
most of the elements quite thoroughly. And there's the special bit about
Lindsey not being afraid. I don't entirely know what that's about, but
imagine part of it is that he figures that the way Darla was treated, she
deserves her revenge and that Holland definitely has got it coming. I guess
Holland won't be manipulating him again. Healthy attachments my ass. He's
the only one in that room Darla shows a liking to.
But you're right that it just goes on and on. That does get annoying. It's
as if they're twiddling thumbs waiting for Angel to finally get here
already.
> Then our antihero
> arrives and suddenly Holland's calling for help as if they're just
> about to chow down. The show is also full of diversions and tangents
> that detract more than help. For instance, I'm guessing the suicidal
> guy was supposed to give us a heads-up on Angel's mental state and
> represent the things that nudge him towards his big climactic decision,
> but in the final product, the incident just feels out of place.
This is when I decided that all of the confused running around must be on
purpose - maybe a mood element to the episode? Something to represent
Angel's torn sense of obligation and desire?
Anyway, the intrusion in itself is fine with me. I got a good chuckle out
of Angel saying, "She should have done this before we left the hotel." And
Cordy pulling the stake on him does effectively show how starkly the divide
is between each of their senses of priority. The garage scene provides a
little fun comic relief. Cordy all worked up about dealing with this
delicately while Angel dismissively wraps it all up in seconds - seemingly
quite accurately too. Mainly it appears to clearly demonstrate how Angel
has come to believe his established job has become an obstacle to what's
really important to him. (Setting up the closing scene.)
So I'm happy with the scene. I'm not convinced, however, that the overall
sense of chaotic movement is enhancing anything.
The one puzzlement to me is how the PTB fit into this. Was Cordy's vision
chance circumstance? In other words, are the PTB oblivous to what is going
on with Angel? That would be OK. It actually accents the notion that his
day job (-er- night) is getting in his way and that he needs to get away
from Cordy, Wesley & Gunn. Or, are the PTB actively trying to direct Angel
away from Darla? There's a sense to that. The Host has indicated that
Darla is off his path and Angel shouldn't go there. W&H indicates that
Darla serves to distract Angel. And, of course, Darla is leading him into
some dangerous territory where his demon self is concerned.
So PTB intervention would make sense. Except that it's a pretty weak
intervention. Hardly the kind of thing to convince Angel how important it
is to stick to his duty. So perhaps the PTB is actually trying to drive him
towards Darla - maybe even to split him from his little gang. Or maybe the
intention is narrower, simply aimed at giving Darla and Dru a bigger head
start. I don't know why. But the PTB are a work in mysterious ways kind of
group.
At this point I don't have much clue what the answer is - or even if an
answer will ever be provided. But it's food for thought.
> At least a few diversions are worthwhile; consider the evil bit of fun
> with Darla and Drusilla shopping. I don't know if I'll ever fully
> recover from "oh. I'm ringing. Do you hear it? I'm ringing - all
> over!" You people may sometimes wonder about my sense of humor,
> given that I of course have none. Well, that line is drop-dead
> hilarious, one of the brightest comedic gems in the whole of the
> Buffyverse.
Is that to demonstrate you really don't have a sense of humor? (I'm
teasing... Sort of. Heh.)
> Kate's brief scene is also a relevant side trip. She frames her
> return to the side of helping the good guys as a pragmatic issue -
> seems reasonable. Angel has the capacity to stop the killings that the
> mere mortals probably don't. This is a decent enough little exchange
> on its own, but then thinking back on it knowing that Angel's going
> to let her (and everyone else) down in the end... hmm indeed.
Kate has looked just plain wasted to me for some time now. She needs an
episode with a bigger part. Get her blood circulating.
> Okay, so Wolfram and Hart have vampires working for them, and
> couldn't conceive
> of the possibility that said vampires might ever turn on them? Or
> rather, they could conceive of it, since co-workers have been warning
> Lindsey about Darla for a long time, so I really don't get it. It
> seems like pretty gross stupidity, which doesn't match with the rest
> of what the writers have been trying to do with Holland.
Maybe. I sort of agree with that. Except that I've always wondered about
the life expectency of W&H lawyers considering the kind of uncontrollable
demons they like to pretend they control. (Or humans for that matter.
Remember what Faith did to Lee?) What confuses me is why he's working so
closely with the demons to begin with. I would have thought that part of
the point of moving "upstairs" was to put Lindsey in the line of fire rather
than him. But it doesn't seem like either of their jobs have changed
discernably at all.
> It also
> doesn't make sense the way they keep turning down chances to kill
> Angel, just because.
Well, Holland does say that Darla is just a tool and that Angel *is* the
special project. Why exactly I'm not sure. But the idea seems pretty clear
that Angel is himself important to them on terms other than just being a
pain in the ass. I expect we'll find out more.
> Unless they're obsessed with the idea of
> getting an Evil Angel on their side, but it still seems like a lot of
> risk relative to the gain. Especially since he'd end up turning on
> them sooner or later too.
I expect it's more than that.
> Well, at least Holland is dead and hopefully
> gone... but it seems strange to kill off our other supporting/developed
> baddies too. Of course we, and by "we" I mean "I," don't
> know for sure at this point whether Lindsey and/or Lilah might have
> been spared.
Even without looking ahead, I never for a moment thought everyone in the
room would die. If Lindsey doesn't survive, I'd be stunned.
> I was thinking that what this episode really needed was another
> memorable ending, given all the major events that it tried to set up.
> And damned if it didn't provide one. I'm not sure why Angel
> bothered to come all the way to the house to dramatically stride away,
> but maybe he hadn't quite made up his mind until that moment.
I don't think he'd even thought of that before seeing what was going on. He
was out to get Darla, period. Until he saw Holland's dying wife he probably
assumed D&D were working with W&H somehow.
> Our
> gentlemanly vampire detective is now willing to let people be
> slaughtered, if he decides that they're the wrong people.
He also, if you noted earlier, did *not* stake Darla when he had a chance to
back at the nursery. He also more than "let" them be slaughtered. He
locked them in.
I don't know what all of this really says about his internal struggle with
his demon. How much in control he really is or isn't. He's definitely
moved onto new moral ground - much more questionable. What exactly that
ground is or how out of control he is remains uncertain to me. He's just as
taciturn as ever and appears to me to have some sort of design that he's not
telling.
> That would
> seem to be the obvious choice for an episode-ending image, but I think
> it ultimately works better as presented, with the coda back at the
> Hyperion, closing with "you're all fired." That's very new and
> different.
The fired part - I don't know. It makes a kind of sense if he's decided to
go somewhere that they can't. I understand him saying that he believes
them, so he can't stay with them. But my first thought was, oh, no, they're
not going to revamp the show again are they? I guess I'll just have to wait
and see and hope they get this right. After all, I've been complaining
about how little those guys have been contributing anyway.
In any case, fair or not, the firing did not come across to me as great
drama. More like a big thud.
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: A good story with a questionable delivery
>
> AOQ rating: Good
In my comments above I seem to have complained more than the episode really
deserves. This is mostly quite exciting, with good doses of humor, and
really intriguing tension inducing plot and character development going on.
And it ends with both Angel's team and W&H seriously fractured, Angel on a
new track personally, and Darla & Dru as major new players in town. It
appears to be one of those episodes where everything changes and we're
playing with new rules now. So I give it the same Good you did.
OBS
One Bit Shy
news:1151098843....@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> And through the interference of the Powers, it now looks like Angel is
>> leaning to the SP's side.
SP?
OBS
One Bit Shy
news:1151102472.2...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
I think you might be able to deduce it from the fact they were talking about
their business - not the kind of thing they would do easily in front of
dates. That would also be consistent with Holland's wife being upstairs
rather than with the group. That might imply that she needed to entertain
the guests not part of the private gathering.
Not proof. But suggestive.
OBS
One Bit Shy
news:7cro92h6jd6jpvdr2...@4ax.com...
Maybe Holland used it as a demon prison from time to time.
OBS
jil...@hotmail.com
Lord Usher wrote:
> And that was really the Powers' point, I think -- to show Angel that there
> are lots of people out there who need saving, and you can't save them all,
> so why not focus on what you *can* do instead of obsessing over what you
> can't?
>
> Remember, too, that the Powers are *prescient*. So while it might appear to
> us that Angel could've saved the day without their intervention, they might
> have known that he'd be too late.
Um... not exactly prescient. As Whistler pointed out a long time ago,
the Powers sent Angel to Sunnydale because they knew Acathla was going
to be released and he should be there. After all, as we found out
later, the vampire with a soul is going to play a big part in the
Apocolypse and they want him on the side of good. Then their mistake
becomes blindingly clear, because Angel loses his soul and becomes the
agent of the Apocolypse. In losing his soul, he also was no longer the
vampire of the prophecy.
One Bit Shy
You're right about the guy in an apron. Looks like a waiter to me.
OBS
Don Sample
burt...@hotmail.com
> Don Sample schreef:
>
> > It's never explicitly stated, but no one other than the lawyers are ever
> > mentioned as having died in that basement. If there were others, I
> > think they'd be worth a mention or two.
> >
> > --
> > Quando omni flunkus moritati
> > Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
>
> I'm not so sure of that.
>
> Uryy ybbx ng Jvyybj va f6, fur abg bayl zheqrerq Jneera, ohg qvq jub
> xabjf jung gb Enpx naq cbffvoyl xvyyrq gung bar gehpxqevire. Lrg gur
> bayl ivpgvz gung rire trgf zragvbarq vf Jneera.
Znlor gur jevgref whfg jnagrq gb gel gb sbetrg gung Enpx unq rire
rkvfgrq? V xabj V qvq.
One Bit Shy
news:1151099186.5...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for future _Buffy_ and _Angel_
>> episodes in these review threads.
>>
>> It also
>> doesn't make sense the way they keep turning down chances to kill
>> getting an Evil Angel on their side, but it still seems like a lot of
>> risk relative to the gain. Especially since he'd end up turning on
>> them sooner or later too.
>
> pivotal role in the Apocalypse. When the final battle between Good and
> Evil comes, a huge part of which side wins is going to depend on which
> side Angel is fighting for, if you believe that prophecy.
>
> Wolfram and Hart believe the prophecy. They want him evil on judgement
> day. *Even if he's not working for them specifically*, because if he's
> evil and he helps tip the balance toward darkness in the final battle,
> they still win.
>
> So they can't kill him. Not just because they'd be destroying a
> potentially very valuable resource for the forces of darkness, but also
> possibly because, well, he's destined to live until the apocalypse, for
> good or for ill.
Has that been explained yet? When?
OBS
Don Sample
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
And the guy serving the drinks was also probably responsible for
cleaning up the mess if Holland decided that he was going to fire anyone
at that meeting.
One Bit Shy
news:dsample-1964EF...@news.giganews.com...
> In article <129otnc...@news.supernews.com>,
> "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
>> <lili...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1151098843....@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> >> And through the interference of the Powers, it now looks like Angel is
>> >> leaning to the SP's side.
>>
>> SP?
>
> Senior Partners.
Thanks
George W Harris
wrote:
:<lili...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Senior Partners. Often mentioned, so far never seen.
:
:OBS
:
--
Firefly Fan Since September 20th, 2002 - Browncoat Since Birth
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
James Craine
lili...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
> Still not the point. Besides, as I've mentioned in another part of the
> thread, those lawyers werent the only ones in the room. There were
> innocent people as well, caterers, dates, ...
>
> Lore
>
Didn't Holland invite ONLY Special Projects people into the
wine cellar for the awards? I thought that all of the others
were upstairs.
KenM47
Just what you want with your precious wine collection, one roundly
pissed off demon prisoner.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Mel
kenm47 wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for future _Buffy_ and _Angel_
>>episodes in these review threads.
>>
>>
>>ANGEL
>>Season Two, Episode 10: "Reunion"
>>(or "Stain the earth... RED!")
>>Writers: Tim Minear and Shawn Ryan
>>Director: James A. Contner
>>
>
>
> <SNIP>
>
> Haven't rewatched yet (but yes, Dru's little fugues are, IMO, just a
> treat). And in memory this is my AtS high point so "Excellent."
>
> A thought I had (Original? I don't know. Maybe read it here eons ago)
> knowing we were heading here. As far as we know human Darla IS the same
> as 400 years ago human Darla, human soul-wise. Is this Vamp Darla the
> same demon soul that was in Darla BtVS S1? Or a newly deposited demon
> soul informed by what second time round human souled Darla remembered
> of her former human and later vampire self? And thus just a xerox
> parading as vamp Darla? Maybe it is "our" Darla, which is why it seemed
> to take a tad longer for her rebirth to actually summon that particular
> demon soul from somewhere? But that would mean Buffy has never actually
> "killed" a vampire, that the demon soul survives the dusting and rests
> in some purgatory somewhere awaiting being implanted anew in another
> husk?
>
> Too much thinking?
>
> It seems to me that this reincarnated new vamp Darla is more proof that
> BtVS lied to us in Lie to Me and elsewhere, that Billy Fordham was
> right, that despite the human perceived downside of vampirism, "The
> Lonely Ones" are just the human made immortal (and nasty, and subject
> to "death" of certain kinds).
>
> Oh, and one more thing, as I noted a gazillion years ago (it seems)
> when this ep first aired, what kind of room is that with that silly
> sliding lock on the outside of the doors? That almost cost it the
> Excellent I gave it.
It's a converted bomb shelter, same as in "Lie To Me" which also had the
door open only from the outside.
Why they are built that way, I don't know. I guess so the people inside
know it isn't safe to go outside unless someone comes by to let them out.
>
> [And now begins the discussions of whether Angel allowed any "innocent"
> non-W&H connected non-lawyers (caterers, waitresses, whatever, even
> Holland's wife) to die at the fangs of D&D.]
>
> Ken (Brooklyn)
>
The way Holland was talking, it sounded like everyone at the party
worked in his department. Did any of them bring dates (unlike Lindsay)?
Unknown. The only non-W&H person there was (perhaps) Holland's wife, and
she was already toast by the time Angel got there. She had just enough
breath in her to invite him in to "help us."
What I found interesting in AOQ's review is his very brief mention of
the suicide guy. This was the first vision Cordy's had in how many
episodes? Since she became Gunn's personal bodyguard, perhaps? The
timing seems very odd. Did the PTBs send it at that particular time for
a reason? Or is just coincidence that it causes them to turn around and
drive away from Darla and Dru before they (D/D) have a chance to kill
anyone?
Let the debate begin!
Mel
Michael Ikeda
news:129ot0s...@news.supernews.com:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1151065166.5...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>
>> ANGEL
>> Season Two, Episode 10: "Reunion"
>
>
> The fired part - I don't know. It makes a kind of sense if he's
> decided to go somewhere that they can't. I understand him
> saying that he believes them, so he can't stay with them. But
> my first thought was, oh, no, they're not going to revamp the
> show again are they?
Why would they need to revamp the show when they already have a
vampire? :)
(Quickly checks escape route.)
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Mel
Stephen Tempest wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> writes:
>
>
>>I don't really think it's necessary
>>to play up the parental side of siring, given how many vampires become
>>their sires' lover. So, mild 'ew' there.
>
>
> Maybe 'ew' is the desired reaction?
>
>
>>Oh, while we're at it, the show does address one of my questions from
>>the previous episode regarding the consensuality of that big sucking
>>thing. "She didn't want to. You think that you can resist, but then
>>it's too late." There ya go.
>
>
> Told you. :)
>
>
>>I don't really get the part in
>>which Drusilla abruptly starts crying out of nowhere, right before
>>that.
>
>
> You mean: "All alone. All alone in the dirt. We've lost our way and
> the little wormy won't dance if he's told to." ? She's upset that
> Darla isn't overjoyed at being brought back to [un]life by her
> granddaughter/mother. She's re-living how horrible it is to be dead
> and alone.
>
> Also, she's a nutjob. You expect rationality?
>
>
>
>>Meanwhile, D&D are circling their future meals, talking, and
>>talking, and the scene just keeps going on... is everyone just going to
>>keep repeating the same general lines over and over? Then our antihero
>>arrives and suddenly Holland's calling for help as if they're just
>>about to chow down.
>
>
> Huh. That's probably the most tense, gripping and emotion-packed
> scene in the entire season... and you found it slow. You're
> incorrigible. <g>
>
> I see it as Holland's line from earlier... "Don't make any sudden
> moves" writ large. The lawyers are packed into a cellar with two
> dangerous vampires, and the only thing they *can* do is talk, and try
> to stall, and pretend that everyone's friends here, and try to keep
> the panic out of their voices as they make 'polite conversation' and
> hope desperately that someone will come to save them before it's too
> late....
>
> "People huddled together, crouching in fear."
> "Yes, yes I imagine that's what it would have been like in a war."
> "No, now. She means now."
>
> And then Angel shows up - and for the first and last time in his life
> Holland is pathetically glad to see him...
>
> Oops.
Don't forget the poetic justice of Holland's own words coming back to
bite him in the neck:
ANGEL: "Innocent people die." / HOLLAND: "People [not so innocent,
perhaps] are going to die."
HOLLAND/ANGEL: "And yet I just can't seem to care."
>
>
>>At least a few diversions are worthwhile; consider the evil bit of fun
>>with Darla and Drusilla shopping. I don't know if I'll ever fully
>>recover from "oh. I'm ringing. Do you hear it? I'm ringing - all
>>over!"
>
>
> Plus Darla's exasperated body language and Dru's next line. "Huh.
> Forgot about that." The moments when Dru *doesn't* act crazy are
> sometimes just as good...
>
>
>>Okay, so Wolfram and Hart have vampires working for them, and
>>couldn't conceive
>>of the possibility that said vampires might ever turn on them?
>
>
> I'm sure they've got all kinds of safeguards and protections when they
> think they need them. Holland's own home is safe, of course, because
> how would an uninvited vampire ever get in?
>
> The keyword here, I think, is 'arrogance'.
>
>
>>It also
>>doesn't make sense the way they keep turning down chances to kill
>>Angel, just because. Unless they're obsessed with the idea of
>>getting an Evil Angel on their side, but it still seems like a lot of
>>risk relative to the gain. Especially since he'd end up turning on
>>them sooner or later too.
>
>
> The Senior Partners play a long game. What's a few dead lawyers if
> you're planning an Apocalypse? One in which the prophecies state
> Angel has a part to play?
>
>
>
> TIRSBILA moments:
>
> "I saw you coming, my lovely. The moon showed me. It told me to come
> into the 20th century."
> "It's the 21st century, Dru."
> "Is it? [pouts] I'm still lagging."
>
> The driver telling D&D to get a room...
>
>
>>AOQ rating: Good
>
>
> Easily one of the 5 best episodes of the series for me.
>
> Stephen
I love this one as well. The ending is incredible. The first time I saw
it way back when, I don't know why but I thought it was the season one
finale. Sure felt like one!
Mel
Lord Usher
>> I have to agree with this. The powers might not care about individual
>> lives, but they were trying to keep their 'champion' from going over
>> the edge. Sending him on cases to keep him busy so he wouldn't make
>> the choice he ended up making.
>
> So why not send him a vision of something that would keep him away
> from that basement.
That's what the suicide vision was supposed to do. And it would've, too, if
Angel hadn't said "to hell with this stupid vision" and left before
finishing the job.
And after that point, there was nothing the Powers could do, because Angel
had cut himself off from the only ready point of contact -- i.e., Cordelia.
Who knows what would've happened if he'd followed the Powers' instructions
and stayed.
Hell, maybe they had another vision lined up that would've allowed Angel to
save a *hundred* lives, if only he hadn't decided that chasing after a lost
cause was more important than saving people's lives and souls.
--
Lord Usher
"I'm here to kill you, not to judge you."
Opus the Penguin
I learned from Seinfeld that it is against the law at least in one
state. Massachusetts, was it?
--
Opus the Penguin
The best darn penguin in all of Usenet
Lord Usher
news:1151099345....@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com:
> Nppbeqvat gb gur Funafuh cebcurpl, gur inzcver jvgu n fbhy jvyy cynl n
> cvibgny ebyr va gur Ncbpnylcfr. Jura gur svany onggyr orgjrra Tbbq naq
> Rivy pbzrf, n uhtr cneg bs juvpu fvqr jvaf vf tbvat gb qrcraq ba juvpu
> fvqr Natry vf svtugvat sbe, vs lbh oryvrir gung cebcurpl.
>
> Jbysenz naq Uneg oryvrir gur cebcurpl. Gurl jnag uvz rivy ba whqtrzrag
> qnl. *Rira vs ur'f abg jbexvat sbe gurz fcrpvsvpnyyl*, orpnhfr vs ur'f
> rivy naq ur urycf gvc gur onynapr gbjneq qnexarff va gur svany onggyr,
> gurl fgvyy jva.
>
> Fb gurl pna'g xvyy uvz. Abg whfg orpnhfr gurl'q or qrfgeblvat n
> cbgragvnyyl irel inyhnoyr erfbhepr sbe gur sbeprf bs qnexarff, ohg
> nyfb cbffvoyl orpnhfr, jryy, ur'f qrfgvarq gb yvir hagvy gur
> ncbpnylcfr, sbe tbbq be sbe vyy.
>
> Jbysenz naq Uneg guvax va gur ybat grez.
Careful, guys. (Not just here but in the rest of the thread as well.) None
of this has been revealed yet.
Lord Usher
@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:
> Nppbeqvat gb gur Funafuh cebcurpl, gur inzcver jvgu n fbhy jvyy cynl n
> cvibgny ebyr va gur Ncbpnylcfr. Jura gur svany onggyr orgjrra Tbbq naq
> Rivy pbzrf, n uhtr cneg bs juvpu fvqr jvaf vf tbvat gb qrcraq ba juvpu
> fvqr Natry vf svtugvat sbe, vs lbh oryvrir gung cebcurpl.
>
> Jbysenz naq Uneg oryvrir gur cebcurpl. Gurl jnag uvz rivy ba whqtrzrag
> qnl. *Rira vs ur'f abg jbexvat sbe gurz fcrpvsvpnyyl*, orpnhfr vs ur'f
> rivy naq ur urycf gvc gur onynapr gbjneq qnexarff va gur svany onggyr,
> gurl fgvyy jva.
>
> Fb gurl pna'g xvyy uvz. Abg whfg orpnhfr gurl'q or qrfgeblvat n
> cbgragvnyyl irel inyhnoyr erfbhepr sbe gur sbeprf bs qnexarff, ohg nyfb
> cbffvoyl orpnhfr, jryy, ur'f qrfgvarq gb yvir hagvy gur ncbpnylcfr, sbe
> tbbq be sbe vyy.
Repeat post, it looks like. Unspoiled viewers, be wary.
Lord Usher
news:1151105464.1...@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com:
>> Remember, too, that the Powers are *prescient*. So while it might
>> appear to us that Angel could've saved the day without their
>> intervention, they might have known that he'd be too late.
>
> Um... not exactly prescient. As Whistler pointed out a long time ago,
> the Powers sent Angel to Sunnydale because they knew Acathla was going
> to be released and he should be there.
Which means they're at least a little bit prescient, yes? Evidenced also by
the fact that Cordy's visions sometimes show the future.
Lord Usher
news:z72dnT1UDrUKCwHZ...@uci.net:
>> Oh, and one more thing, as I noted a gazillion years ago (it seems)
>> when this ep first aired, what kind of room is that with that silly
>> sliding lock on the outside of the doors? That almost cost it the
>> Excellent I gave it.
>
> It's a converted bomb shelter, same as in "Lie To Me" which also had
> the door open only from the outside.
>
> Why they are built that way, I don't know.
The one in "Lie to Me" wasn't built that way. You see a workman rigging it
up halfway through the episode.
Apteryx
news:1151065166.5...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> episodes in these review threads.
> than the bloodsucking thing," I don't really think it's necessary
> to play up the parental side of siring, given how many vampires become
> their sires' lover. So, mild 'ew' there.
Of course it's necessary here. To remind us of it so that Dru (ably assisted
by Gunn) can run her own version of the "I'm my own grandpa" gag.
> Oh, while we're at it, the show does address one of my questions from
> the previous episode regarding the consensuality of that big sucking
> thing. "She didn't want to. You think that you can resist, but then
> it's too late." There ya go.
Not really. Elisi already raised this quote in rot-13 in the discussion on
The Trial. The short version of my response was that this is simply what
people say when speaking of succumbing to temptaition against the temptees
better judgement. There was a chocolate cake involved. Sorry you missed it
:)
> Angel's determination to "save" Darla from rising again, again,
> is good writing, and I thought the hunt for her worked pretty well.
> Anyone not know that Dru would attack him from behind before the
> attempted staking? Some good energetic battles here. Once she's
> back, Darla seems avoidant of everyone, and it's hard to say how much
> of the souled version is in this new/old character. On the one hand,
> her first word is "Angel," and she's interesting to watch her
> looking so confused.
I think confusion is reasonable here. She is now newly vamped - presumably
the sould is gone and the new demon is in charge. But it's only just woken,
and she still has her human memories of the feelings she had just before she
died. For a while there's a conflict.
>
> This episode, given the things that happen in it, had the potential to
> be another defining highlight of the series on the caliber of "The
> Trial." Long story short, it's not, although it's certainly well
> worth watching. I have two main complaints, and one of them is that
> "Reunion" is positively crawling with pacing issues.
I think one weakness of The Trial is that it also has pacing issues, but
yes, this is worse.
> Okay, we get
> that the lawyers are standing around and being evil - next slide,
> please. Is it a good thing that I have to rack my brain and the
> transcript just to remember the sequence of events? (No.) What,
> Angel's just now getting to the clothing store? Geez, are we still
> on that? Meanwhile, D&D are circling their future meals, talking, and
> talking, and the scene just keeps going on... is everyone just going to
> keep repeating the same general lines over and over?
I don't have as big a problem with this. Of course, this was made for
commercial TV, so naturally Darla's mention of a massacre is just before the
last ad break. There has to be as much time after that as the last act will
take. But even on DVD it works OK for me. Holland is a master at playing
for time, and if Angel had been the cavalry, it would have worked.
> that detract more than help. For instance, I'm guessing the suicidal
> guy was supposed to give us a heads-up on Angel's mental state and
> represent the things that nudge him towards his big climactic decision,
> but in the final product, the incident just feels out of place.
Gunn suggests that maybe the PTB sent Angel here to keep him away from
Darla. He means that in a good way, that the PTB are trying to guide him
away from Darla, because that confrontation is not a good idea. From the
ending, he could be right. But right about now Angel is probably remembering
that he never did get an answer to the very perceptive question he asked
back in City Of... when Doyle first mentioned the Powers that Be - "The
powers that be what?"
> At least a few diversions are worthwhile; consider the evil bit of fun
> with Darla and Drusilla shopping. I don't know if I'll ever fully
> recover from "oh. I'm ringing. Do you hear it? I'm ringing - all
> over!" You people may sometimes wonder about my sense of humor,
> given that I of course have none. Well, that line is drop-dead
> hilarious, one of the brightest comedic gems in the whole of the
> Buffyverse.
It really must have been hell for you. But yeah, that's pretty good.
> Okay, so Wolfram and Hart have vampires working for them, and
> couldn't conceive
> of the possibility that said vampires might ever turn on them? Or
> rather, they could conceive of it, since co-workers have been warning
> Lindsey about Darla for a long time, so I really don't get it. It
> seems like pretty gross stupidity, which doesn't match with the rest
> of what the writers have been trying to do with Holland. It also
> doesn't make sense the way they keep turning down chances to kill
> Angel, just because. Unless they're obsessed with the idea of
> getting an Evil Angel on their side, but it still seems like a lot of
> risk relative to the gain.
At this point I think it can only be noted and wondered at that they don't
want him dead - at least at the middle management level that Holland
occupies/d.
> I was thinking that what this episode really needed was another
> memorable ending, given all the major events that it tried to set up.
> And damned if it didn't provide one. I'm not sure why Angel
> bothered to come all the way to the house to dramatically stride away,
> but maybe he hadn't quite made up his mind until that moment.
There could have been innocent people there, but all he saw were W&H lawyers
and someone he must have decided was an evil waiter.
> gentlemanly vampire detective is now willing to let people be
> slaughtered, if he decides that they're the wrong people. That would
> seem to be the obvious choice for an episode-ending image, but I think
> it ultimately works better as presented, with the coda back at the
> Hyperion, closing with "you're all fired." That's very new and
> different. The show still manages to make me smile in dark times with
> "you just walked away?" "No, I walked to my car and then I drove
> away." Cordelia looks like she's about to cry; Angel's really
> become the center of her life, I suppose.
That makes a very strong ending. All seasons (and earlier) there have been
hints and premonitions of the possibilty of Angel turning evil. And now that
seems to be opening up (at an admittedly lower level of evil than that of
Angel simply turning into Angelus) and now we have Angel's position on
that - he's cool with it.
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: A good story with a questionable delivery
>
> AOQ rating: Good
I think I liked it better than you. It is the 2nd best AtS 2 episode I
mentioned earlier that I was hoping to be able to rate as Excellent, which
as explained earlier would require a rating of 3.50 or better which in turn
would require that if I were to be stranded on desert island with my choice
of either this or Earshot (which is rated 3.50) I'd pick this. But in the
end, I wouldn't, I'd take Earshot. So it's not Excellent, but only Very Very
Good. Still, it's my 6th favourite AtS episode, 2nd best in season 2.
--
Apteryx
BTR1701
Yes, I forgot about Seinfeld. An oft-relied upon legal resource, used by
lawyers and judges everywhere.
Mel
Lord Usher wrote:
Oh, you're right. But it's still a nice parallel. Perhaps Holland had
his re-designed on purpose as well??
Mel
KenM47
Im LtM the door was rigged to keep Buffy in.
"Ford: Rigged up special. Once it’s closed, it can only be
opened from the outside."
And how would it make sense to have bomb shelters that get locked from
the outside?
>
>Why they are built that way, I don't know. I guess so the people inside
>know it isn't safe to go outside unless someone comes by to let them out.
Sorry. That does not compute.
<SNIP>
Ken (Brooklyn)
Don Sample
Lord Usher <lord_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
That's right up there with the theory that the Watchers Council had an
army of Wesleys waiting, just off screen, to handle the situation if
Buffy screwed things up in Sunnydale.
Angel had the opportunity to save a whole bunch of innocent people from
a couple of bloodthirsty demons. Instead the PTBs sent him running off
across town to save one idiot from himself. As a result of this, Angel
becomes an accessory to the bloody murder of a couple of dozen more
people.
Don Sample
Mel <melb...@uci.net> wrote:
> kenm47 wrote:
> > Oh, and one more thing, as I noted a gazillion years ago (it seems)
> > when this ep first aired, what kind of room is that with that silly
> > sliding lock on the outside of the doors? That almost cost it the
> > Excellent I gave it.
>
> It's a converted bomb shelter, same as in "Lie To Me" which also had the
> door open only from the outside
>
> Why they are built that way, I don't know. I guess so the people inside
> know it isn't safe to go outside unless someone comes by to let them out.
The shelter in "Lie to Me" was explicitly modified to only be openable
from the outside, in order to trap Buffy in it. (They even show the guy
making the alterations.) For an actual shelter, being openable only
from the outside is an incredibly stupid design.
Don Sample
Mel <melb...@uci.net> wrote:
Not unless he was working on some secret plan to trap Angel, or someone
else, inside it.
Wes <>
<tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for future _Buffy_ and _Angel_
>episodes in these review threads.
>
>
>
>Oh, while we're at it, the show does address one of my questions from
>the previous episode regarding the consensuality of that big sucking
>thing. "She didn't want to. You think that you can resist, but then
>it's too late." There ya go.
>
Spoken by one who couldn't resist. Of course the people who do resist
don't usually get to tell their story or make for entertaining tv
shows.
Wes
(Harmony) Watcher
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1151065166.5...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for future _Buffy_ and _Angel_
> episodes in these review threads.
>
>
> Season Two, Episode 10: "Reunion"
> (or "Stain the earth... RED!")
> Writers: Tim Minear and Shawn Ryan
> Director: James A. Contner
>
>
> At least a few diversions are worthwhile; consider the evil bit of fun
> with Darla and Drusilla shopping. I don't know if I'll ever fully
> recover from "oh. I'm ringing. Do you hear it? I'm ringing - all
> over!" You people may sometimes wonder about my sense of humor,
> given that I of course have none. Well, that line is drop-dead
> hilarious, one of the brightest comedic gems in the whole of the
> Buffyverse.
>
There's hope for you yet, AoQ -- 'bout your humor, that is, :)
One of the silliest and funniest scenes in AtS.
"... I'm ringing - all - over! ..."
And I think it would not be half as funny without the swaying hips ...
Clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5SKETGsEzw
Transcript: http://bdb.vrya.net/bdb/clip.php?clip=4757
--
==Harmony Watcher==
Mel
Well whoever did it and whatever the reason, that's how it was designed.
Personally, I don't think any of them would have escaped even if Angel
had left the door open or never shown up at all.
Mel
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> the outside?
maybe holland wanted the room to hold more than just wine
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> In article <1151096391.2...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>,
> lili...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > he's 98% responsible, leaving two procent for the fact
> > that vampires do have some choice in what they do.
>
> In which case, Angel would only be 33% responsible at best.
>
> > > > Same case with vampires, lock people in with vampires, you're
> > > > sentencing them to death, aka, you're murdering them. No matter how
> > > > badly you might try to lay the blame on the weapons you just used.
> > >
> > > Buffy: It's just . Parker's problem with intimacy turns out to be that
> > > he can't get enough of it. And i knew it. I knew what he was. If he were
> > > tied and gagged and left in a cave that vampires happen to frequent it
> > > wouldn't really be like I killed him really
> >
> > Try and tell that to a court.
> >
> > Sorry, but this is like leaving someone to drown. Just cause you don't
> > do the actual act of kililng them, you've still murdered them.
>
> Actually, according to law, you haven't murdered anyone. So long as you
> don't push them in the water or keep them from somehow helping
> themselves, you can stand there and watch them drown. It's not murder.
> It's not anything as far as the criminal law is concerned.
cpc 192
it might prosecuted as manslaughter
but ive never heardf of such a prosecution
Elisi
> [And now begins the discussions of whether Angel allowed any "innocent"
> non-W&H connected non-lawyers (caterers, waitresses, whatever, even
> Holland's wife) to die at the fangs of D&D.]
Why does that matter? I quite simply fail to understand why it is even
an issue. So the lawyers were bad guys - they were still human. Angel
is supposed to be a Champion and when he deliberately leaves them to
die (and locking them in implicates him DIRECTLY, and makes him share
in the responsibility for their deaths) he is going down a very dark
path. They might have deserved to die, but doesn't mean that Angel can
dole out punishment as he sees fit. Also they might have had
wives/husbands and children who will now be left to grieve.
What Angel did was evil and cannot be excused. If you try to, you
weaken the impact of the story considerably (hey - maybe Buffy only
fainted when The Master bit her...). I've seen someone saying that he
is less evil than Angelus - I can't really agree with that. Angelus
didn't have a choice - he was evil, full stop. Angel does have a
choice and when he goes down the dark path it could have dire
consequences (there's nothing about Angelus in those prophecies, is
there?) - a Champion fighting for the Dark Side is pretty much as bad
as it gets (also see Darth Vader).
Finally, nf jr frr yngre, ur xabjf gung svtugvat sbe uhznaf vf gur
evtug guvat gb qb, ab znggre ubj rivy gurl ner. Sebz 'Furyyf', frnfba5,
rcvfbqr fvkgrra:
VYYLEVN: Lbh ner gur cebgrpgbe bs gurfr perngherf?
NATRY: Lrf.
VYYLEVN: Lbh'q svtug sbe gurve yvirf?
NATRY: Lrf.
VYYLEVN(ybbxf ng Xabk): Rira guvf bar?
XABK(areibhfyl): Vf gung na vffhr? Vf zl yvsr va crevy, obff? Xvat?
NATRY: Lbh'er nobhg nf ybj nf vg trgf, Xabk, ohg lbh'er n cneg bs
uhznavgl. Gung vfa'g nyjnlf cerggl, ohg vg'f n uryy bs n ybg orggre
guna jung pnzr orsber. Naq vs vg pbzrf qbja gb n pubvpr orgjrra lbh naq
uvz, gura lrf, V jbhyq svtug sbe uvf yvsr, whfg yvxr nal bgure uhzna'f.
Orpnhfr gung'f jung crbcyr qb. Gung'f jung znxrf hf-
jil...@hotmail.com
Lord Usher wrote:
> Remember, too, that the Powers are *prescient*. So while it might appear to
> us that Angel could've saved the day without their intervention, they might
> have known that he'd be too late.
Actually, I have to remind you of something. The Powers are not
cleanly prescient. They had Whistler get Angel to Sunnydale, because
they intended ye old souled-one to prevent an apocolypse via Acathla.
It never occurred to them that he might lose his soul and be the cause
of that apocolypse.
But then, sans-soul he no longer is the vampire of that prophecy.
lili...@gmail.com
Opus the Penguin schreef:
Not to mention, he locked the vampires in with them, which is the
equivalent of keeping them from helping themselves.
Lore
John Briggs
> "Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
> news:dsample-1964EF...@news.giganews.com...
>> In article <129otnc...@news.supernews.com>,
>> "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>>
>>> <lili...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:1151098843....@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>>>> And through the interference of the Powers, it now looks like
>>>>> Angel is leaning to the SP's side.
>>>
>>> SP?
>>
>> Senior Partners.
>
> Thanks
See: http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/buffy/angel/wolframandhart/careers.shtml
--
John Briggs
John Briggs
> "KenM47" <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:7cro92h6jd6jpvdr2...@4ax.com...
>> Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <1151098557.5...@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
>>> lili...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> Still not the point. Besides, as I've mentioned in another part of
>>>> the thread, those lawyers werent the only ones in the room. There
>>>> were innocent people as well, caterers, dates, ...
>>>>
>>>> Lore
>>>
>>> At the time of Darla and Dru's entry into that room, it appears that
>>> everyone else present was a member of Wolfram and Hart's Special
>>> Projects division. Wives, dates, etc. seem to have been shuffled
>>> off to some other part of the house. The only confirmed kill of a
>>> non-W&H employee was Mrs. Manners, who received her fatal injury
>>> before Angel arrived on the scene.
>>
>> I just rewatched. Unless one dude was an associate pledging in his
>> suit and apron and serving drinks, there is at least one non-W&H
>> lawyer in the room when Angel bolts the door from the outside. (I
>> still ask what is the purpose of a bolt on the outside of the doors
>> to a wine cellar, even a wine cellar that once was a bomb shelter?)
>
> You're right about the guy in an apron. Looks like a waiter to me.
An extra who didn't get out of the way in time?
--
John Briggs
KenM47
He's in a number of the shots during that scene. Doubtful it's his
fault or his call.
Ken (Brooklyn)
KenM47
And yet, somehow, I just can’t seem to care.
<Someone had to say it>
Ken (Brooklyn)
Sam
Lord Usher wrote:
> Careful, guys. (Not just here but in the rest of the thread as well.) None
> of this has been revealed yet.
>
>
What, really? Shit, sorry. I'm not watching these as I go, it's all
from memory, and I really thought all that "pivotal role in the
Apocalypse" stuff was on the table already.
One Bit Shy
news:sP8ng.6803$1g....@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
Gee, thanks a lot. Now they know who I am and will be contacting me soon.
OBS
BTR1701
lili...@gmail.com wrote:
Yes, what Angel did would make him culpable. But the drowning example
wasn't quite the same thing.
One Bit Shy
I think Don's probably right that they have to keep somebody around to clean
up the special messes they tend to make. Not everybody on the inside need
be a lawyer.
OBS
BTR1701
<mair_fheal-8DFBC...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> In article <btr1702-FBD83B...@news.giganews.com>,
> BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <1151096391.2...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>,
> > lili...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > he's 98% responsible, leaving two procent for the fact
> > > that vampires do have some choice in what they do.
> >
> > In which case, Angel would only be 33% responsible at best.
> >
> > > > > Same case with vampires, lock people in with vampires, you're
> > > > > sentencing them to death, aka, you're murdering them. No matter how
> > > > > badly you might try to lay the blame on the weapons you just used.
> > > >
> > > > Buffy: It's just. Parker's problem with intimacy turns out to be that
> > > > he can't get enough of it. And i knew it. I knew what he was. If he were
> > > > tied and gagged and left in a cave that vampires happen to frequent it
> > > > wouldn't really be like I killed him really
> > >
> > > Try and tell that to a court.
> > >
> > > Sorry, but this is like leaving someone to drown. Just cause you don't
> > > do the actual act of kililng them, you've still murdered them.
> >
> > Actually, according to law, you haven't murdered anyone. So long as you
> > don't push them in the water or keep them from somehow helping
> > themselves, you can stand there and watch them drown. It's not murder.
> > It's not anything as far as the criminal law is concerned.
>
> cpc 192
> it might prosecuted as manslaughter
I don't see how.
California Penal Code Section 192:
192. Manslaughter is the unlawful killing of a human being without
malice. It is of three kinds:
(a) Voluntary--upon a sudden quarrel or heat of passion.
(b) Involuntary--in the commission of an unlawful act, not
amounting to felony; or in the commission of a lawful act which might
produce death, in an unlawful manner, or without due caution and
circumspection. This subdivision shall not apply to acts committed
in the driving of a vehicle.
(c) Vehicular
Standing on the bank of a river and watching someone drown isn't
actively killing anyone, with or without malice. It's not the result of
"a sudden quarrel or heat of passion"; it's not something done in the
commission of an unlawful act; nor is it vehicular.
One Bit Shy
news:1151136441.4...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> kenm47 wrote:
>
>> [And now begins the discussions of whether Angel allowed any "innocent"
>> non-W&H connected non-lawyers (caterers, waitresses, whatever, even
>> Holland's wife) to die at the fangs of D&D.]
>
> Why does that matter? I quite simply fail to understand why it is even
> an issue. So the lawyers were bad guys - they were still human. Angel
> is supposed to be a Champion and when he deliberately leaves them to
> die (and locking them in implicates him DIRECTLY, and makes him share
> in the responsibility for their deaths) he is going down a very dark
> path. They might have deserved to die, but doesn't mean that Angel can
> dole out punishment as he sees fit. Also they might have had
> wives/husbands and children who will now be left to grieve.
It probably doesn't matter in the sense you're raising. But I think it
might matter to Angel - even in his current state of mind. Would he have
made the same decision if he found Holland trapped in a room with Darla and
Drusilla.... and a dozen innocent tourists from Iowa? Even though he
appears to have crossed the line into a dangerous dark zone the character
still seems to be attempting to somehow discriminate - treat the culpable
different from others. If he's not actually discriminating, that suggests
something different about how his mind is working.
OBS
John Briggs
Sorry about that - did you wait the 30 seconds or so for the picture to
change?
There are other pages, including one on submitting a query to the Senior
Partners...
--
John Briggs
One Bit Shy
Yeah, I explored the site. The SP didn't seem to think much of my
suggestion.
OBS
Mel
Elisi wrote:
> kenm47 wrote:
>
>
>>[And now begins the discussions of whether Angel allowed any "innocent"
>>non-W&H connected non-lawyers (caterers, waitresses, whatever, even
>>Holland's wife) to die at the fangs of D&D.]
>
>
> Why does that matter? I quite simply fail to understand why it is even
> an issue. So the lawyers were bad guys - they were still human.
Human, yes, perhaps.
HOLLAND: "You don't kill humans."
ANGEL: "You don't qualify."
*****
ANGEL: "People die. Innocent people."
HOLLAND: "And yet I just can't seem to care."
Can human law ever touch W&H in a way that metes out justice? They are
lawyers in the worst sense of the word: they not only use the law, they
hide behind it. If someone gets in their way, they hire demons or evil
Slayers (Faith) or humans with extra-sensory abilities (Vanessa,
Bethany) to get rid of the problem. They leave no trace evidence that
could ever be used to convict them of anything in a human court of law.
So, we know they're evil, we know they do evil things whenever they can.
If human laws can't touch them, that leaves it to the Champions, as you
say, to make sure they are brought to justice. And, in the world of
Champions, that usually involves killing the bad guys.
Angel
> is supposed to be a Champion and when he deliberately leaves them to
> die (and locking them in implicates him DIRECTLY, and makes him share
> in the responsibility for their deaths) he is going down a very dark
> path. They might have deserved to die, but doesn't mean that Angel can
> dole out punishment as he sees fit. Also they might have had
> wives/husbands and children who will now be left to grieve.
If Angel doesn't do it, who will?
>
> What Angel did was evil and cannot be excused. If you try to, you
> weaken the impact of the story considerably (hey - maybe Buffy only
> fainted when The Master bit her...). I've seen someone saying that he
> is less evil than Angelus - I can't really agree with that. Angelus
> didn't have a choice - he was evil, full stop. Angel does have a
> choice and when he goes down the dark path it could have dire
> consequences (there's nothing about Angelus in those prophecies, is
> there?) - a Champion fighting for the Dark Side is pretty much as bad
> as it gets (also see Darth Vader).
>
> Finally, nf jr frr yngre, ur xabjf gung svtugvat sbe uhznaf vf gur
> evtug guvat gb qb, ab znggre ubj rivy gurl ner. Sebz 'Furyyf', frnfba5,
> rcvfbqr fvkgrra:
>
> VYYLEVN: Lbh ner gur cebgrpgbe bs gurfr perngherf?
> NATRY: Lrf.
> VYYLEVN: Lbh'q svtug sbe gurve yvirf?
> NATRY: Lrf.
> VYYLEVN(ybbxf ng Xabk): Rira guvf bar?
> XABK(areibhfyl): Vf gung na vffhr? Vf zl yvsr va crevy, obff? Xvat?
> NATRY: Lbh'er nobhg nf ybj nf vg trgf, Xabk, ohg lbh'er n cneg bs
> uhznavgl. Gung vfa'g nyjnlf cerggl, ohg vg'f n uryy bs n ybg orggre
> guna jung pnzr orsber. Naq vs vg pbzrf qbja gb n pubvpr orgjrra lbh naq
> uvz, gura lrf, V jbhyq svtug sbe uvf yvsr, whfg yvxr nal bgure uhzna'f.
> Orpnhfr gung'f jung crbcyr qb. Gung'f jung znxrf hf-
>
Ng juvpu cbvag, Jrfyrl fubbgf uvz.
Mel
Mel
BTR1701 wrote:
Well, it could be an unlawful act if the bystander is a lifeguard
(dereliction of duty). But not if it's just some regular schmoe.
Mel
Mel
One Bit Shy wrote:
In my mind, Angel does still care about the innocent, is discriminating,
as you say. Look at how much time he spent with that poor woman in the
dressing room. He couldn't get away from the dumb suicide kid fast
enough, but this was different. Now granted, he was interested in
finding out if she knew anything, but he didn't hurry her or get angry
with her for not getting to point faster. He was nice, and caring, and
made sure she knew she was safe now.
Mel
James Craine
BTR1701 wrote:
> In article <Xns97EBD3F3AF091op...@127.0.0.1>,
> Opus the Penguin <opusthepen...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>Actually, according to law, you haven't murdered anyone. So long
>>>as you don't push them in the water or keep them from somehow
>>>helping themselves, you can stand there and watch them drown. It's
>>>not murder. It's not anything as far as the criminal law is
>>>concerned.
>>>
>>
>>I learned from Seinfeld that it is against the law at least in one
>>state. Massachusetts, was it?
>
>
> Yes, I forgot about Seinfeld. An oft-relied upon legal resource, used by
> lawyers and judges everywhere.
But the relevant question is, did the writers of Seinfeld
get it right, or did they make up a law for comedic effect?
peachy ashie passion
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> writes:
>
>
>
>>I don't really get the part in
>>which Drusilla abruptly starts crying out of nowhere, right before
>>that.
>
>
> You mean: "All alone. All alone in the dirt. We've lost our way and
> the little wormy won't dance if he's told to." ? She's upset that
> Darla isn't overjoyed at being brought back to [un]life by her
> granddaughter/mother. She's re-living how horrible it is to be dead
> and alone.
>
> Also, she's a nutjob. You expect rationality?
>
OMG, Stephen that's the best laugh I've had all week.
Thank you.
Stephen Tempest
You're welcome. :)
Stephen
Lord Usher
news:1151151338.9...@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
> Lord Usher wrote:
>> Careful, guys. (Not just here but in the rest of the thread as well.)
>> None of this has been revealed yet.
>>
>>
>
> What, really? Shit, sorry. I'm not watching these as I go
Gur ncbpnylcfr fghss vf erirnyrq va "Oybbq Zbarl."
--
Lord Usher
"I'm here to kill you, not to judge you."
lili...@gmail.com
BTR1701 schreef:
Maybe not, but it defintely falls under 'death through negligence'
Lore
James Craine
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for future _Buffy_ and _Angel_
> episodes in these review threads.
>
>
> ANGEL
> Season Two, Episode 10: "Reunion"
> (or "Stain the earth... RED!")
> Writers: Tim Minear and Shawn Ryan
> Director: James A. Contner
>
> This episode, given the things that happen in it, had the potential to
> be another defining highlight of the series on the caliber of "The
> Trial." Long story short, it's not, although it's certainly well
> worth watching. I have two main complaints, and one of them is that
> "Reunion" is positively crawling with pacing issues. Okay, we get
> that the lawyers are standing around and being evil - next slide,
> please. Is it a good thing that I have to rack my brain and the
> transcript just to remember the sequence of events? (No.) What,
> Angel's just now getting to the clothing store? Geez, are we still
> on that? Meanwhile, D&D are circling their future meals, talking, and
> talking, and the scene just keeps going on... is everyone just going to
> keep repeating the same general lines over and over? Then our antihero
> arrives and suddenly Holland's calling for help as if they're just
> about to chow down. The show is also full of diversions and tangents
> that detract more than help. For instance, I'm guessing the suicidal
> guy was supposed to give us a heads-up on Angel's mental state and
> represent the things that nudge him towards his big climactic decision,
> but in the final product, the incident just feels out of place.
You left out one of my favorite line ( which I didn't notice
on first viewing either). As Angel enteres the house and
proceeds towards the wine cellar Drusilla 'senses' his
approach. She says: "Daddy (sigh). It's never Daddy.....
(Angel arrives at the door) DADDY!!! " Dru could sense the
change in Angel's personality and was happy about it.
> Okay, so Wolfram and Hart have vampires working for them, and
> couldn't conceive
> of the possibility that said vampires might ever turn on them? Or
> rather, they could conceive of it, since co-workers have been warning
> Lindsey about Darla for a long time, so I really don't get it. It
> seems like pretty gross stupidity, which doesn't match with the rest
> of what the writers have been trying to do with Holland.
Evidently they expected gratitude from two monsters because
they helped them (a common human failing).
>
> I was thinking that what this episode really needed was another
> memorable ending, given all the major events that it tried to set up.
> And damned if it didn't provide one. I'm not sure why Angel
> bothered to come all the way to the house to dramatically stride away,
> but maybe he hadn't quite made up his mind until that moment. Our
> gentlemanly vampire detective is now willing to let people be
> slaughtered, if he decides that they're the wrong people. That would
> seem to be the obvious choice for an episode-ending image, but I think
> it ultimately works better as presented, with the coda back at the
> Hyperion, closing with "you're all fired." That's very new and
> different. The show still manages to make me smile in dark times with
> "you just walked away?" "No, I walked to my car and then I drove
> away." Cordelia looks like she's about to cry; Angel's really
> become the center of her life, I suppose.
This is one of my all-time favorite endings for any TV
episode ever. Finally, for once, the hero does the 'right'
thing rather than dealing with the world the way it ought to
be but isn't. (I also liked it when Dr. Green of 'ER'
refused to revive the killer in the elevator.)
BTR1701
lili...@gmail.com wrote:
Well, first, negligence is an aspect of civil law, not criminal law. And
second, even under civil law, in order to prove negligence, the first
thing you have to do is prove that the defendant had a duty to the
plaintiff. Under the law, you don't have a duty to help save someone
else's life.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
i dont see the word negligence in 192
i do see in the commission of a lawful act which might produce death
without due caution or circumspection
i also noted before youre careful snipping of some of what i wrote
and with your whining about me snipping your posts
hypocrisy much?
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
BTR1701
<mair_fheal-BAB0D...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
That's great since we'd moved beyond your code citation and were
discussing something else now. Keep up.
> i do see in the commission of a lawful act which might produce death
> without due caution or circumspection
Merely standing on the side of a river bank is not committing a lawful
(Harmony) Watcher
"James Craine" <James...@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:OwDng.60252$mF2....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
"Erqrsvavgvba". Fvzcyl chg, Natry jrag ahgf bhg bs qrfcnve sbe abg orvat
noyr gb fnir Qneyn'f fbhy sebz orvat rkcryyrq ol n qrzba n frpbaq gvzr. Gur
ungerq gung Natry rkuvovgrq va gur arkg rcvfbqr gbbx uvz zhpu shegure njnl
sebz uhznavgl, abg pybfre. Yrg'f gnyx zber nobhg guvf yngre nsgre NbD unf
erivrjrq "Erqrsvavgvba".
--
==Harmony Watcher==