AOQ Review 5-19: "Tough Love"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Five, Episode 19: "Tough Love"
(or "I've had enough of the ruff stuff, baby")
Writer: Rebecca Rand Kirshner
Director: David Grossman
"Tough Love" starts with Glory still seeking the Key, and the
viewer faced with the prospect that she'll go after all the wrong
people, one at a time, all the while reenacting five hundred more
versions of the same basic scene with her lackeys. Anyone not realize
that she'd picked the wrong Key again? In a way, though, this bit of
bumbling works to disarm the viewer for what's to follow, so the
construction of the episode improves in my mind now that I've seen
the end. Meanwhile her Ben life is a starting to fall apart, so I
guess that answers the question I had awhile ago about that. Makes
sense. But Weber's getting worse every week. "This is so unfair!
You're taking everything away from me!" "Not! Now! Please!
I'm! Ben!" Maybe someone should go all George Lucas on the series
and insert Christian Kane into the role.
Meanwhile in what seems like recipe for bad comedy, Buffy decides that
she needs to keep Dawn on a tighter leash, and overdoes things.
Happily, the show doesn't drag this out. It throws in a decent smile
with the geometry study method, and then has Dawn get petulant right
away and perhaps see how forced it is. This makes Buffy talk about the
real things that she's afraid of. Not much to say here, it's
pretty okay.
Considering some of the mentalities that would emerge in the wake of a
certain crime against humanity later that year, Anya's ramble about
buying things and patriotism seems a little prophetic. Just a little.
I like that part, in any case, and it's the only extended bit of
dialogue-with-crackle for me. "How's about we try being a bit less
prejudiced, and a bit more inclusive? Not us, just you."
I may have been too hasty in choosing Jane Espenson as my designated
writer to pick on. Whatever faults Jane may have, no one will accuse
her of having a tin ear for dialogue. On the other hand, episodes like
this one and "Out Of My Mind" have scenes that sometimes say the
right things, but just take forever to say them. It's possible that
a Buffyverse episode is hurt the most when the rhythm of the dialogue
starts feeling "off." No matter how good the ideas are, the
execution has to be up to snuff in order to rival the classics of the
series, and that's this episode's most glaring flaw. First,
let's look at the exchange in the training room in which Buffy talks
to her Watcher about setting boundaries with her sister. Having
trouble being firm, wanting to dump the responsibility on Giles, and so
on all makes sense. But the conversation just goes on and on while
taking twice as much time as it needs to. Now, with this particular
scene, although it's not hugely exciting to watch, I could maybe
accept it as "realistic" dialogue. Real people don't talk in
Whedon-speak, and they sometimes dance around issues and touch on a
point several times before they finally express it clearly.
Not so excusable are all the other scenes that play like this (the
principal's office, etc.). I'm just going to focus on the worst,
which is the five-hour argument between Willow and Tara. This just
appears out of nowhere because the writers want the two of them to have
recently fought before Glory enters the picture. At least that's how
I see it. It's one of the most hollow moments of the whole series
for me. Not quite "The Yoko Factor" bad, but it's close. And
it's bad in a very slow manner too, that's light on the wit and
heavy on seeing how many different issues can be forced into the scene.
Then the discussion about whether the Red Witch is gay enough... where
did that even come from? The hell of it is, there are some moments
that could've been worth seeing in a better scene - Tara being
intimidated by Willow's abilities, and the fact that Wil would get
defensive in response. Again, a good idea or too is buried not only
beneath bad ideas, but by mediocre writing.
With all that being said, is it a surprise that the strongest parts of
TL are dialogue-scarce and nonverbal scenes? The uncharacteristic
music does a lot to make the festive culture fair seem gaudy and
unconvincing, setting the stage for a lot of brooding and making the
viewer less prepared for the violence to follow. Glory's appearance
on the bench is a little predictable, but the subsequent images are
intense. The god casually crushing Tara's hand definitely comes to
mind, as does Willow racing across the grounds and realizing that
she's too late as the float passes by. There's some dark humor
there, in Glory constantly accusing Tara of "lying" (the latter has
almost no lines during this scene), but the menace stays prominent.
Later events don't let us down on the impact front, as an important
character is "damaged" and doesn't get better by the end of the
show. That's enough to keep one watching.
I wasn't feeling Hannigan's delivery during the hospital scenes. I
mention this because she's usually so good with stuff like that. On
the other hand, I love the whole reveal, her facial expressions in
particular, as black-eyed Wilow blows her way into Glory's sanctum,
bristling with cold magical rage. It's been a pleasure watching Geek
Girl come out of the dark as a major power in the Buffyverse. For a
second there's even the hope that she'll be the one to find the
power in herself to take out Glory (and unwittingly unleash something
even nastier for Buffy to fight, of course). And that's made
stronger by the fact that her attack doesn't accomplish anything at
all in the end.
As an issue of pragmatism and as fall-out from the previous episode,
Buffy's back to relying on Spike to protect her family. Not like she
has a huge amount of choice. The too-much-blah-blah-blah problem rears
its head again. Spike's analysis of Willow's motivations would
have worked better if it'd been cut down to little more than "I'd
do it," I think.
In some ways, I see TL as being this season's equivalent of
"Choices." That's not a quality comparison (I liked
"Choices" better, and the attack on Tara may make "Tough Love"
the more important of the two), but a statement of where it fits into
the season. These #19s don't change the ultimate conflicts between
heroes and Big Bad, but move them along to where they need to go,
giving each side enough information so that the stage can be set for
the final fight. Such comparisons break down a little when considering
the memorable conclusion of this one, though. It seems like it'll be
a reflective ending as the characters sort things out within their
groups, like at the end of #19s such as "Choices" and "Eyes For
You." Instead, its arresting when the wall explodes and Glory
appears (I love windows blowing out. Hard to go wrong with that). The
Scoobies seem quietly scared already, but then Tara decides that it's
time to take the story to the next stage... great closing line too.
For the purposes of drama, we couldn't be safe forever. Although
getting there wasn't so entertaining, I'm glad we made it to this
Point B.
So...
One-sentence summary: Flawed but necessary.
AOQ rating: Decent
[Season Five so far:
1) "Buffy Vs. Dracula" - Good
2) "Real Me" - Decent
3) "The Replacement" - Good
4) "Out Of My Mind" - Weak
5) "No Place Like Home" - Decent
6) "Family" - Excellent
7) "Fool For Love" - Excellent
8) "Shadow" - Good
9) "Listening To Fear" - Decent
10) "Into The Woods" - Good
11) "Triangle" - Decent
12) "Checkpoint" - Decent
13) "Blood Ties" - Good
14) "Crush" - Excellent
15) "I Was Made To Love You" - Weak
16) "The Body" - Good
17) "Forever" - Decent
18) "Intervention" - Decent
19) "Tough Love" - Decent]
lili...@gmail.com
The thing with the Tara/Willow fight though, is that it shows a
characterflaw of Willow. Namely, she is incapable of handling a fight
with a significant other. She couldn't take it from Oz, and she can't
take it from Tara. No matter how insignificant, she can't handle her
partner disagreeing with her.
That and oh yes, were you aware that Christian Kane originally
auditioned for the role of Riley Finn? I still wish he'd gotten the
part. CK is a much better actor than MB, but of course Blucas had the
size advantage.
Lore
Arbitrar Of Quality
> That and oh yes, were you aware that Christian Kane originally
> auditioned for the role of Riley Finn? I still wish he'd gotten the
> part. CK is a much better actor than MB, but of course Blucas had the
> size advantage.
Yeah, that's why I thought of him. Riley and Ben have some
similarities, and neither actor has totally satisfied me at bringing
out their friendly guy's darker side (Blucas was considerably better at
it than Weber, though). But things are the way they are - we might not
be gushing over Kane this way if he hadn't been rejected, because then
Lindsey McDonald as we know him wouldn't have happened.
-AOQ
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> which is the five-hour argument between Willow and Tara. This just
> mention this because she's usually so good with stuff like that. On
> the other hand, I love the whole reveal, her facial expressions in
> particular, as black-eyed Wilow blows her way into Glory's sanctum,
there are stories of people getting power beyond the human lot
like mauddib of dune or phoenix of the xmen
and that it can go badly
tara was concerned that willow would go all black eyed
and might delve into dark corners from which she could not return
that willow got away with it this time
doesnt mean she can keep getting away with it
> appears (I love windows blowing out. Hard to go wrong with that). The
> Scoobies seem quietly scared already, but then Tara decides that it's
> time to take the story to the next stage... great closing line too.
> For the purposes of drama, we couldn't be safe forever. Although
> getting there wasn't so entertaining, I'm glad we made it to this
> Point B.
another thing you can consider is to line up the women and girl in the show
at the beginning of the show you got
tara who was a surrogate mother to her family (and this earth goddess vibe)
buffy who had learned self sacrafice and is learning to be mother
willow who has never been responsible for anybody but herself
dawn who is not expected to be yet fully responsible for anybody
glory who is infantile omnipotence made flesh
a spectrum of people from infancy to maturity
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
Elisi
> The thing with the Tara/Willow fight though, is that it shows a
> characterflaw of Willow. Namely, she is incapable of handling a fight
> with a significant other. She couldn't take it from Oz, and she can't
> take it from Tara. No matter how insignificant, she can't handle her
> partner disagreeing with her.
Now I'm going to go and blame Oz for some of that. Oz had many
brilliant qualities, but he wasn't good at communicating. *He* was the
one who didn't talk to her about Veruca - and then he left. From 'Wild
At Heart':
Willow : What are you doing?
Oz : I'm going.
Willow : Now?
Oz : Mm-hmm.
Willow : That's your solution?
Oz : That's my decision.
Willow : Don't I get any say in this?
Oz : No.
That is the only time she has ever had a real argument with a
significant other and quite frankly it was a terrible lesson: There's a
problem - someone leaves. She has never learnt how to have an argument
and resolve it properly, which is one of the major parts of any
relationship.
lili...@gmail.com
Not saying you're wrong. I've just never been interested enough in Oz
to memorize his every scene*g*
And there's probably also a part of how her parents probably rarely if
ever argued in front of her. Considering what we've seen of them, they
seem like the type that feels it's wrong to have a fight in front of
the kid. They also seemed to be the type of people that cared more for
the idea of having a kid, than the actual getting involved with the
child thing. So she's never really learned to see arguments as a
necessery part of any relationship.
All of which makes her nearly explode in fear as soon as Tara does
diagree with her on something.
Lore
Michael Ikeda
news:1152863838.3...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
> review threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Five, Episode 19: "Tough Love"
> (or "I've had enough of the ruff stuff, baby")
> Writer: Rebecca Rand Kirshner
> Director: David Grossman
> First, let's look at
> the exchange in the training room in which Buffy talks to her
> Watcher about setting boundaries with her sister. Having
> trouble being firm, wanting to dump the responsibility on Giles,
> and so on all makes sense. But the conversation just goes on
> and on while taking twice as much time as it needs to.
I thought it was about the right length. Much shorter wouldn't
really have worked.
> I'm just going to focus on the
> worst, which is the five-hour argument between Willow and Tara.
> This just appears out of nowhere because the writers want the
> two of them to have recently fought before Glory enters the
> picture.
Not "out of nowhere". Tara and Willow have a very different
philosophical view of magic. And there have been suggestions (e.g.
"Out of My Mind", "Crush") here and there that Tara has been a bit
worried about how Willow tends to push the limits. And I don't
imagine that Willow's little stunt back in "Forever" helped matters.
Buried beneath the argument is a serious discussion that they've
needed to have for some time. It comes out as an argument because
they've been avoiding the discussion.
(They're also both a bit insecure about the relationship and their
place in it.)
Another thing to keep in mind is the exchange between Willow and
Giles later:
GILES: You two don't quarrel much, do you?
WILLOW: Never. Until today.
GILES: Well, now it's over.
WILLOW: (very upset) Over? How can it be over? I just found her!
GILES: The quarrel is over.
WILLOW: (quieter) Oh. Yeah.
Willow and Tara "never quarrel". This is partly because (aside from
their differing views on magic) they're very compatible. But it's
likely also because both of them tend to suppress quarrels. And to
avoid talking about difficult emotional issues. The result is that
everything builds up until something triggers an explosion.
They've "never" had a serious argument because, up until now, Tara
hasn't had enough self-confidence to HAVE a serious argument with
anyone. And Willow steers away from quarrels almost as strongly.
You'll note her fear that the first quarrel means that the
relationship is over.
>At least that's how I see it. It's one of the most
> hollow moments of the whole series for me. Not quite "The Yoko
> Factor" bad, but it's close. And it's bad in a very slow manner
> too, that's light on the wit and heavy on seeing how many
> different issues can be forced into the scene.
> Then the discussion about whether the Red Witch is gay
> enough... where
> did that even come from?
That's Willow changing the subject. She's steering the argument away
from Tara's concerns about Willow and magic.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Elisi
Firstly I doubt that anyone is going to defend Ms Kirshner - she's a
decent writer I guess, nothing more.
> As an issue of pragmatism and as fall-out from the previous episode,
> Buffy's back to relying on Spike to protect her family. Not like she
> has a huge amount of choice. The too-much-blah-blah-blah problem rears
> its head again. Spike's analysis of Willow's motivations would
> have worked better if it'd been cut down to little more than "I'd
> do it," I think.
About Spike... Hmm, first I need to go back to that kiss from last
episode.
I think when Buffy realises what Spike did for her she has a small
epiphany of sorts - she suddenly sees the man and not the monster. And
I think the kiss is a spontaneous reaction to that. It is the exact
opposite of Cecily's: "But I do see you William, that's the
problem. You're nothing. You're beneath me." Buffy sees him as I
think only Drusilla has seen him before. And she sees that he *does*
love her (in his own, strange twisted way). Remember: "Weird love is
better than no love."
Notice that in this episode she no longer questions his feelings or the
fact that they are real: "I'd do it. Right person - person I loved. I'd
do it!"
We do not know exactly what it is that Spike is feeling, but it makes
him behave as if he loves her. That's what matters right now for Buffy
and she's using it shamlessly. Remember the conversation Angel had with
Lindsey way back in 'Blind Date':
Lindsey: "If I get myself killed, that'll convince you that I've
changed."
Angel: "It's a start."
Spike has changed - he's ready to die for her - so she takes him up on
that. There's no bribes or threats of violence anymore, just an
expectation that he'll be true to his word. Buffy's pretty desparate,
and having a strong fighter on her side that she can trust is a big
plus.
The other thing I wanted to point out was Spike's line: "Well, I'm not
good, and I'm okay." Those few words say an awful lot. Remember them.
Apteryx
news:1152863838.3...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
> certain crime against humanity later that year, Anya's ramble about
> buying things and patriotism seems a little prophetic. Just a little.
> I like that part, in any case, and it's the only extended bit of
> dialogue-with-crackle for me. "How's about we try being a bit less
> prejudiced, and a bit more inclusive? Not us, just you."
I think Anya always had those mentalities, at least since she's had a job.
It's a higlight anyway.
> series, and that's this episode's most glaring flaw. First,
> let's look at the exchange in the training room in which Buffy talks
> to her Watcher about setting boundaries with her sister. Having
> trouble being firm, wanting to dump the responsibility on Giles, and so
> on all makes sense. But the conversation just goes on and on while
> taking twice as much time as it needs to.
There's some fun there. But yeah, mostly clumsy and too long
>
> Not so excusable are all the other scenes that play like this (the
> principal's office, etc.). I'm just going to focus on the worst,
> which is the five-hour argument between Willow and Tara. This just
> appears out of nowhere because the writers want the two of them to have
> recently fought before Glory enters the picture.
Not out of nowhere, as others have said, but yeah, it happens here because
of what Glory is about to do to Tara.
> At least that's how
> I see it. It's one of the most hollow moments of the whole series
> for me.
Surely not - that comes a little later in the episode for me :) (though
only of the series so far)
> With all that being said, is it a surprise that the strongest parts of
> TL are dialogue-scarce and nonverbal scenes? The uncharacteristic
> music does a lot to make the festive culture fair seem gaudy and
> unconvincing, setting the stage for a lot of brooding and making the
> viewer less prepared for the violence to follow. Glory's appearance
> on the bench is a little predictable, but the subsequent images are
> intense. The god casually crushing Tara's hand definitely comes to
> mind, as does Willow racing across the grounds and realizing that
> she's too late as the float passes by.
A little hackneyed for me.
> There's some dark humor
> there, in Glory constantly accusing Tara of "lying" (the latter has
> almost no lines during this scene), but the menace stays prominent.
That's the advantage of having a crazy villain.
> I wasn't feeling Hannigan's delivery during the hospital scenes. I
> mention this because she's usually so good with stuff like that. On
> the other hand, I love the whole reveal, her facial expressions in
> particular, as black-eyed Wilow blows her way into Glory's sanctum,
> bristling with cold magical rage. It's been a pleasure watching Geek
> Girl come out of the dark as a major power in the Buffyverse.
Here (for me) is the worst moment in the series to date. I wouldn't say that
Willow floating into the room and the ridiculous magical battle which
ensures was where the series jumped the shark, because the series still has
some great stuff to come. But that is to the credit of that future great
stuff. There are certainly series which have had shark-jumping moments that
were not as bad as this (including Happy Days).
> For a
> second there's even the hope that she'll be the one to find the
> power in herself to take out Glory (and unwittingly unleash something
> even nastier for Buffy to fight, of course). And that's made
> stronger by the fact that her attack doesn't accomplish anything at
> all in the end.
I wouldn't say that - it worked great for Glory. It's what made Glory come
after Willow. And it was at Willow and Tara's apartment that she finally
found her key. Willow - just not that smart for a geek girl.
> In some ways, I see TL as being this season's equivalent of
> "Choices." That's not a quality comparison (I liked
> "Choices" better, and the attack on Tara may make "Tough Love"
> the more important of the two), but a statement of where it fits into
> the season. These #19s don't change the ultimate conflicts between
> heroes and Big Bad, but move them along to where they need to go,
> giving each side enough information so that the stage can be set for
> the final fight.
They are performing a similar function. I have always suspected that the
much lesser quality of TL is due to the fact that Whedon has been absent for
much of the season working on Angel. The finale setup seems more forced
because Whedon hasn't had as much time to ensure the setups to the setup
were sprinkled through earlier episodes.
>Such comparisons break down a little when considering
> the memorable conclusion of this one, though. It seems like it'll be
> a reflective ending as the characters sort things out within their
> groups, like at the end of #19s such as "Choices" and "Eyes For
> You." Instead, its arresting when the wall explodes and Glory
> appears (I love windows blowing out. Hard to go wrong with that). The
> Scoobies seem quietly scared already, but then Tara decides that it's
> time to take the story to the next stage... great closing line too.
> For the purposes of drama, we couldn't be safe forever. Although
> getting there wasn't so entertaining, I'm glad we made it to this
> Point B.
A final annoying quible is that Glory succeeds through the stupidity of
Buffy and the scoobies (on what seems to me an unprecedented scale). Glory
can walk into any room and grab anyone she wants, but the good news is, she
can't recognise the key, so Dawn's still relatively safe. Bad news is that
all of Glory's mind-suck victims can recognise the key. So now that we know
Glory is coming after Willow, because she said so, lets take Dawn to
Willow's apartment where she can be in the same room as one of those
mind-suck victims when Glory arrives. Sound like a plan?
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Flawed but necessary.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
I'd agree with that summary. There is some important stuff here. But it is
very badly delivered. For me, the episode is only Weak, and closer to Bad
than to Decent. It's my 138th favourite BtVS episode, 21st best in season 5
--
Apteryx
Stephen Tempest
>Considering some of the mentalities that would emerge in the wake of a
>certain crime against humanity later that year, Anya's ramble about
>buying things and patriotism seems a little prophetic.
My first thought here was "Which future episode is he talking about,
and who spoiled him on it?" until I realised you were talking about
real life...
>which is the five-hour argument between Willow and Tara. This just
>appears out of nowhere because the writers want the two of them to have
>recently fought before Glory enters the picture.
I agree: good idea, badly written - and, to be heretical for a moment,
unconvincingly acted. I never got the impression that Willow was mad
enough to go stomping out the door until she did it.
And I wouldn't be surprised if the answer to the question about where
the 'lesbo street cred' argument came from was "in answer to the fans
who refused to accept that Willow was gay now." <g>
>On
>the other hand, I love the whole reveal, her facial expressions in
>particular, as black-eyed Wilow blows her way into Glory's sanctum,
>bristling with cold magical rage.
Can anyone tell me which came first, Willow going black-eyed here or
Lyta Alexander going black-eyed on Babylon 5?
> It's been a pleasure watching Geek
>Girl come out of the dark as a major power in the Buffyverse. For a
>second there's even the hope that she'll be the one to find the
>power in herself to take out Glory (and unwittingly unleash something
>even nastier for Buffy to fight, of course). And that's made
>stronger by the fact that her attack doesn't accomplish anything at
>all in the end.
She probably did more damage to Glory than anything else we've seen on
the show, though; and in the end it seemed more that she ran out of
magical energy (or was too drained by pushing the magic too hard, too
long); each of her subsequent spells had less effect than the previous
one until she collapsed, drained.
Also note that the book of darkest magic she got from the Magic Box
seemed to have a life of its own...
Nznmvat ubj zhpu bs frnfba fvk guvf rcvfbqr frgf hc be sberfunqbjf...
Stephen
Elisi
>Nznmvat ubj zhpu bs frnfba fvk guvf rcvfbqr frgf hc be sberfunqbjf...
Ab xvqqvat! Naq unf ur orra fcbvyrq be vf ur whfg creprcgvir qb lbh
guvax? Guvf ovg znqr zr cnhfr:
Vg'f orra n cyrnfher jngpuvat Trrx Tvey pbzr bhg bs gur qnex nf n znwbe
cbjre va gur Ohsslirefr. Sbe n frpbaq gurer'f rira gur ubcr gung
fur'yy or gur bar gb svaq gur cbjre va urefrys gb gnxr bhg Tybel (naq
hajvggvatyl hayrnfu fbzrguvat rira anfgvre sbe Ohssl gb svtug, bs
pbhefr).
George W Harris
<ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
:
:Nznmvat ubj zhpu bs frnfba fvk guvf rcvfbqr frgf hc be sberfunqbjf...
Jryy, fvapr gur bevtvany cyna jnf gb unir Tybel
xvyy Gnen naq chfu Jvyybj bire gur rqtr, ohg Wbff
qrynlrq gung orpnhfr ur yvxrq gur punenpgre fb zhpu,
gung'f abg fb fhecevfvat.
Bs pbhefr, gurer'f gur pbagvatrag gung'yy fnl jr
pna'g oryvrir gung orpnhfr Wbff qvqa'g fcbvy gur jubyr
frevrq orsber vg fgnegrq, fb vg'f nyy yvrf! Ur'f znxvat
vg hc nf ur tbrf nybat!
--
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV!
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
Rowan Hawthorn
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> writes:
>
>> Considering some of the mentalities that would emerge in the wake of a
>> certain crime against humanity later that year, Anya's ramble about
>> buying things and patriotism seems a little prophetic.
>
> My first thought here was "Which future episode is he talking about,
> and who spoiled him on it?" until I realised you were talking about
> real life...
>
>
>> which is the five-hour argument between Willow and Tara. This just
>> appears out of nowhere because the writers want the two of them to have
>> recently fought before Glory enters the picture.
>
> I agree: good idea, badly written - and, to be heretical for a moment,
> unconvincingly acted. I never got the impression that Willow was mad
> enough to go stomping out the door until she did it.
>
> And I wouldn't be surprised if the answer to the question about where
> the 'lesbo street cred' argument came from was "in answer to the fans
> who refused to accept that Willow was gay now." <g>
>
>
>> On
>> the other hand, I love the whole reveal, her facial expressions in
>> particular, as black-eyed Wilow blows her way into Glory's sanctum,
>> bristling with cold magical rage.
>
> Can anyone tell me which came first, Willow going black-eyed here or
> Lyta Alexander going black-eyed on Babylon 5?
>
Don't know, but on BtVS, the black-eyed look while wielding dark magicks
goes all the way back to the episode "Witch" in Season One. Amy's mom
goes black-eyed when she's winding up, and so does Amy later in "BB&B"
and "Gingerbread"
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
EGK
>"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
>>At least that's how I see it. It's one of the most
>> hollow moments of the whole series for me. Not quite "The Yoko
>> Factor" bad, but it's close. And it's bad in a very slow manner
>> too, that's light on the wit and heavy on seeing how many
>> different issues can be forced into the scene.
>> Then the discussion about whether the Red Witch is gay
>> enough... where
>> did that even come from?
>
>That's Willow changing the subject. She's steering the argument away
>from Tara's concerns about Willow and magic.
That's actually a very typical thing for people to do when they know they're
caught in something or just flat out wrong. Heck, you see it on Usenet all
the time. :)
Willow's increased use of magic WAS a concern and has been throughout the
series to this point. Tara was right to be a little afraid. Willow didn't
just try to change the subject. She changed it to something she knew would
put Tara on the defensive.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"There would be a lot more civility in this world if people
didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you"
(Calvin and Hobbes)
EGK
Dhvgr n srj crbcyr guvax NBD vf n yvggyr zber fcbvyrq guna ur yvxrf gb yrg
ba ohg fvapr guvf vf n sha gevc jr nyy cynl nybat.
lili...@gmail.com
EGK schreef:
Jryy ur unf gur qiq frgf, fb nyy ur unf gb qb vf ybbx ng fbzr bs gubfr
fhzznevrf gb trg fbzr vqrn bs jung'f gb pbzr.
Lore
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
>>
>> Can anyone tell me which came first, Willow going black-eyed here or
>> Lyta Alexander going black-eyed on Babylon 5?
>>
> Don't know, but on BtVS, the black-eyed look while wielding dark magicks
> goes all the way back to the episode "Witch" in Season One. Amy's mom
> goes black-eyed when she's winding up, and so does Amy later in "BB&B"
> and "Gingerbread"
Doc does it too, in Forever, though he doesn't seem to be actually
performing a spell at the moment it happens.
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
Rowan Hawthorn
> Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> Can anyone tell me which came first, Willow going black-eyed here or
>>> Lyta Alexander going black-eyed on Babylon 5?
>>>
>> Don't know, but on BtVS, the black-eyed look while wielding dark magicks
>> goes all the way back to the episode "Witch" in Season One. Amy's mom
>> goes black-eyed when she's winding up, and so does Amy later in "BB&B"
>> and "Gingerbread"
>
> Doc does it too, in Forever, though he doesn't seem to be actually
> performing a spell at the moment it happens.
>
>
> --Chris
Yeah, I'd forgotten about him.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Five, Episode 19: "Tough Love"
> (or "I've had enough of the ruff stuff, baby")
> Writer: Rebecca Rand Kirshner
> Director: David Grossman
This is another one that I watched again recently, and I was struck by how
everything seemed a bit ... thin. It felt like not a lot was happening.
That wasn't how I remembered this episode at all. Looking back on it
afterwards, I decided that this was actually because plenty of stuff
happened, but none of it really excited me. It was all competent, but
mostly kind of bland.
> Meanwhile in what seems like recipe for bad comedy, Buffy decides that
> she needs to keep Dawn on a tighter leash, and overdoes things.
> Happily, the show doesn't drag this out.
I don't think Buffy ever told the others, even Giles, that Dawn was
actually skipping school. That might have made them more understanding
when she tries to take a hard line with Dawn. But maybe she was reluctant
to admit that she had let Dawn's "messing up" progress that far.
> I like that part, in any case, and it's the only extended bit of
> dialogue-with-crackle for me. "How's about we try being a bit less
> prejudiced, and a bit more inclusive? Not us, just you."
I liked the mock war movie "I'm going in" line.
> Not so excusable are all the other scenes that play like this (the
> principal's office, etc.). I'm just going to focus on the worst,
> which is the five-hour argument between Willow and Tara. This just
> appears out of nowhere because the writers want the two of them to have
> recently fought before Glory enters the picture. At least that's how
> I see it. It's one of the most hollow moments of the whole series
> for me. Not quite "The Yoko Factor" bad, but it's close.
I agree that this is one of the weaker arguments of the series. (There
are enough good arguments that people could do polls on Top Arguments the
same way they do with favorite fight scenes, best love scenes, top
laugh-out-loud moments, etc.) But I didn't find completely worthless
either. True, it does feel rather sudden. (Certainly it didn't have the
very skillful and extensive setup that the fight in The Yoko Factor did.
Just had to get that out there.) On the other hand, I kinda like the idea
of the fight emerging gradually out of a tiny disagreement, with each
person saying something that unintentionally makes things slightly worse.
That felt very realistic to me. And Tara's worry that Willow might just
be a Four-Year Lesbian lacked any setup that I could see, but it also gave
the fight more emotional impact. At that point it was no longer just an
argument about Buffy or magic-use policy and became something that could
threaten their whole relationship.
> intense. The god casually crushing Tara's hand definitely comes to
> mind, as does Willow racing across the grounds and realizing that
> she's too late as the float passes by. There's some dark humor
> there, in Glory constantly accusing Tara of "lying" (the latter has
> almost no lines during this scene), but the menace stays prominent.
The hand-crushing scene was made a lot more intense by the way Glory
wouldn't let Tara scream. And that it happens while sitting in the middle
of a crowd who are totally oblivious, and who Glory could wipe out in a
second if Tara did scream, helps too. Oh, and the blood-licking.
The Spike-Dawn conversation may have been too wordy, but I thought it was
important to get Dawn's POV at this stage of the story. And I was amused
by Spike's nickname for her: "platelet."
Never really cared that much for Willow's attack on Glory. The floating
part was just a little too over the top for me. And I thought Buffy was a
little too easily convinced that Willow wouldn't do anything rash. She
should have invited Willow to stay at her house that night (probably
should have done that anyway), or at least made Willow *promise* not to go
after Glory.
> You." Instead, its arresting when the wall explodes and Glory
> appears (I love windows blowing out. Hard to go wrong with that). The
> Scoobies seem quietly scared already, but then Tara decides that it's
> time to take the story to the next stage... great closing line too.
It's a great way to end the episode, but I have to wonder why Tara chose
that moment to start babbling about beautiful green energy? All the other
brain-suck victims said it as soon as they saw Dawn.
> AOQ rating: Decent
Yeah.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
>> even nastier for Buffy to fight, of course). And that's made
>> stronger by the fact that her attack doesn't accomplish anything at
>> all in the end.
>
> I wouldn't say that - it worked great for Glory. It's what made Glory come
> after Willow. And it was at Willow and Tara's apartment that she finally
> found her key. Willow - just not that smart for a geek girl.
Small quibble: Tara and Willow are still living in the dorms, each having
her own single room. (Annoyingly. When I was in college, I was on a
waiting list for three years before I got a single.) Willow's is the room
with light-colored walls, like the one Xander punched in The Body.
Tara's is the one with the walls painted black, the one her father comes
to in Family. In the final scene of Tough Love, they're in Tara's room.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> Lyta Alexander going black-eyed on Babylon 5?
first happened in the -witch- first season third episode
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Here (for me) is the worst moment in the series to date. I wouldn't say that
> Willow floating into the room and the ridiculous magical battle which
> ensures was where the series jumped the shark, because the series still has
> some great stuff to come. But that is to the credit of that future great
> stuff. There are certainly series which have had shark-jumping moments that
> were not as bad as this (including Happy Days).
Is this tied to your issues with Buffy having friends who aren't
Ordinary, or is there something specific to this scene? I didn't see
it as any more ridiculous than anything else on our vampire show, and
was impressed to see one of Willow's periodic bursts of rage married to
that kind of power. Feels right. So yeah, pretty much disagreed, even
though I'm not even sure what exactly is bothering you.
> A final annoying quible is that Glory succeeds through the stupidity of
> Buffy and the scoobies (on what seems to me an unprecedented scale). Glory
> can walk into any room and grab anyone she wants, but the good news is, she
> can't recognise the key, so Dawn's still relatively safe. Bad news is that
> all of Glory's mind-suck victims can recognise the key. So now that we know
> Glory is coming after Willow, because she said so, lets take Dawn to
> Willow's apartment where she can be in the same room as one of those
> mind-suck victims when Glory arrives. Sound like a plan?
They'r enot always the brightest. Here they're not thinking
pragmatically of Tara as One Of The Crazies, because she's Tara.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> And I wouldn't be surprised if the answer to the question about where
> the 'lesbo street cred' argument came from was "in answer to the fans
> who refused to accept that Willow was gay now." <g>
I really shouldn't be dredging this up again, given that everyone has
already made every point that they're going to make, but... if the show
is indeed trying to suggest that heterosexuality can be so casually
discarded (but homosexuality can't?), then it has its head pretty far
up its poverbial ass.
> Can anyone tell me which came first, Willow going black-eyed here or
> Lyta Alexander going black-eyed on Babylon 5?
I don't know B5 (it's kinda a hole in my geekdom), but I can tell you
that it started in '93-94 (during DS9's second season) and was a five
year story, so it would've been long over. Don't know where the
TV-movies come in, though.
> She probably did more damage to Glory than anything else we've seen on
> the show, though; and in the end it seemed more that she ran out of
> magical energy (or was too drained by pushing the magic too hard, too
> long); each of her subsequent spells had less effect than the previous
> one until she collapsed, drained.
And each spell looks a little less impressive/threatening too, as Glory
starts to comment.
-AOQ
Rowan Hawthorn
> Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>> threads.
>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Five, Episode 19: "Tough Love"
>> (or "I've had enough of the ruff stuff, baby")
>> Writer: Rebecca Rand Kirshner
>> Director: David Grossman
>
>> principal's office, etc.). I'm just going to focus on the worst,
>> which is the five-hour argument between Willow and Tara. This just
>> appears out of nowhere because the writers want the two of them to have
>> recently fought before Glory enters the picture. At least that's how
>> I see it. It's one of the most hollow moments of the whole series
>> for me. Not quite "The Yoko Factor" bad, but it's close.
>
> I agree that this is one of the weaker arguments of the series. (There
> are enough good arguments that people could do polls on Top Arguments the
> same way they do with favorite fight scenes, best love scenes, top
> laugh-out-loud moments, etc.) But I didn't find completely worthless
> either. True, it does feel rather sudden. (Certainly it didn't have the
> very skillful and extensive setup that the fight in The Yoko Factor did.
> Just had to get that out there.) On the other hand, I kinda like the idea
> of the fight emerging gradually out of a tiny disagreement, with each
> person saying something that unintentionally makes things slightly worse.
> That felt very realistic to me. And Tara's worry that Willow might just
> be a Four-Year Lesbian lacked any setup that I could see,
That's because Tara really didn't *have* that worry: That was all
Willow, whether because of her own insecurity about how Tara might see
her, or deliberately setting up a strawman argument to divert the
argument away from Tara's *real* worries, or a little of both.
> but it also gave
> the fight more emotional impact. At that point it was no longer just an
> argument about Buffy or magic-use policy and became something that could
> threaten their whole relationship.
Poor Willow really doesn't know how to handle a relationship; she has
something good with Tara, but she could screw it up if she's not careful.
>
>> intense. The god casually crushing Tara's hand definitely comes to
>> mind, as does Willow racing across the grounds and realizing that
>> she's too late as the float passes by. There's some dark humor
>> there, in Glory constantly accusing Tara of "lying" (the latter has
>> almost no lines during this scene), but the menace stays prominent.
>
> The hand-crushing scene was made a lot more intense by the way Glory
> wouldn't let Tara scream. And that it happens while sitting in the middle
> of a crowd who are totally oblivious, and who Glory could wipe out in a
> second if Tara did scream, helps too. Oh, and the blood-licking.
And Tara's quiet, steely defiance. There's a lot of backbone there for
such a meek, unassuming young woman.
>
> Never really cared that much for Willow's attack on Glory. The floating
> part was just a little too over the top for me.
Yeah. On the flip side, though, I liked pissed-off Willow, and AH's
delivery. That harsh, cold voice and the set of her face is a reminder
that Willow has *really* been going through some changes the last few
years - and maybe Tara's right to be concerned.
> And I thought Buffy was a
> little too easily convinced that Willow wouldn't do anything rash. She
> should have invited Willow to stay at her house that night (probably
> should have done that anyway), or at least made Willow *promise* not to go
> after Glory.
Heh. Like *that* would have made a difference...
>
>> AOQ rating: Decent
>
> Yeah.
>
Me, too. There were some really good scenes, but the episode as a whole
just wasn't quite where it should have been. That may partly be
because, for me, Glory arc was my second least-favorite Big Bad.
Arbitrar Of Quality
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> This is another one that I watched again recently, and I was struck by how
> everything seemed a bit ... thin. It felt like not a lot was happening.
> That wasn't how I remembered this episode at all. Looking back on it
> afterwards, I decided that this was actually because plenty of stuff
> happened, but none of it really excited me. It was all competent, but
> mostly kind of bland.
I'm telling you, it's the script. The best of ideas can't be truly
exciting without the writing being on board.
(There
> are enough good arguments that people could do polls on Top Arguments the
> same way they do with favorite fight scenes, best love scenes, top
> laugh-out-loud moments, etc.)
"Revelations" is an obvious choice, as is BecI. Willow yelling at
Xander in "Innocence." And because I love going all against the grain
and stuff, throw in DMP too (more the part in Buffy's room than the
public part). What else comes to mind for y'all?
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
Rowan Hawthorn wrote:
> > And Tara's worry that Willow might just
> > be a Four-Year Lesbian lacked any setup that I could see,
>
> That's because Tara really didn't *have* that worry: That was all
> Willow, whether because of her own insecurity about how Tara might see
> her, or deliberately setting up a strawman argument to divert the
> argument away from Tara's *real* worries, or a little of both.
That's about the best way to make the scene not-work less that I've
seen so far. Good thought.
> Me, too. There were some really good scenes, but the episode as a whole
> just wasn't quite where it should have been. That may partly be
> because, for me, Glory arc was my second least-favorite Big Bad.
I forget, have we met #1 yet?
-AOQ
burt...@hotmail.com
> Stephen Tempest wrote:
>
> > She probably did more damage to Glory than anything else we've seen on
> > the show, though; and in the end it seemed more that she ran out of
> > magical energy (or was too drained by pushing the magic too hard, too
> > long); each of her subsequent spells had less effect than the previous
> > one until she collapsed, drained.
>
> And each spell looks a little less impressive/threatening too, as Glory
> starts to comment.
What always bugged me about that fight was just how utterly stupid
Willow was. The only powers that Glory has are super strength, speed,
and invulnerability to physical attacks. She doesn't have any "magical"
powers at all, at least not offensive ones. And we've already seen that
Willow is a powerful telekenetic, so all she would have had to do was
lift Glory up a foot or so off the ground, out of reach of anything she
could throw, and Glory would have been *completely helpless.* Then all
she would have had to do would be to keep blasting her with that
lightning she used (which actually did seem to hurt her).
Now, it's questionable whether Willow could have kept that up long
enough to do any significant damage, but it still would have been a
much better tactic than throwing knives at her, which she knows won't
do anything.
And I know that Willow wasn't thinking clearly, she was reacting
emotionally, etc. But still, this has always bugged me.
Don Sample
lili...@gmail.com wrote:
> And there's probably also a part of how her parents probably rarely if
> ever argued in front of her. Considering what we've seen of them, they
> seem like the type that feels it's wrong to have a fight in front of
> the kid.
"My parents don't even bicker. Sometimes they glare."
-- Willow, "Nightmares"
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Don Sample
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> (Annoyingly. When I was in college, I was on a
> waiting list for three years before I got a single.)
Every university is different. I only spent one term in residence when
I was at university, and I had a single room.
Rowan Hawthorn
Well, to be fair, Glory's pretty much tied for #1 with Mr. Frankenstein
himself. They alternate for the #1 slot depending on which episode I'm
watching at the time. I didn't like either of the Big Bads for Seasons
Four or Five, and Season Five was probably my least-favorite season
overall. Which is pretty funny in a way, because Season Four, with one
of my least-favorite Big Bads and my least-favorite overall arc (the
Initiative) is tied with Season Three as my favorite season.
lili...@gmail.com
burt...@hotmail.com schreef:
That's probably because it would take Willow a lot more effort and
power to lift Glory up while she was blasting something at her, than it
would take to throw those knives. Remember Willow's only human, Glory's
a god, you don't spend all your energy in your first attack and as
others have already mentioned. Willow became increasingly weaker, with
every spell she threw at Glory.
Lore
Kevin
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> > This is another one that I watched again recently, and I was struck by how
> > everything seemed a bit ... thin. It felt like not a lot was happening.
>
> exciting without the writing being on board.
This thinness/blandness has plagued most of S5 thus far, to which
you've attested quite a bit in your reviews -- hence you seem
overgenerous in many final ratings. Everybody's making excuses ("But
look at these good bits! See, it's still a great show!"), but the
episodic storytelling and pacing just aren't what they used to be. I
suppose a keen interest in the newer characters must be sustaining the
show for some, but I don't really have that. I'm just glad somebody
else finds Glory and her underlings so irritating.
> > people could do polls on Top Arguments
>
> "Revelations" is an obvious choice
Seconded -- not just for the big showdown, but also the scene where
Buffy and Xander quietly, seethingly square off (after Post-bonked
Giles is wheeled away), and Xander tells her that Faith put 2 and 2
together. Love that bit.
Great confrontations would have to include Xander & his nemesis at the
climax of The Zeppo, but it's not so much an argument.
--Kevin
burt...@hotmail.com
But my point is, since Willow knows the knives won't have any effect,
why expend any effort at all on them? I know that Willow has a finite
amount of power at her disposal, so I'm saying it doesn't make sense
for her to use that power on things that won't hurt Glory when she has
at least one attack at her disposal that will.
And yes, I know that the reason Willow fought the way she did was
because she was upset over Tara and not thinking clearly. I'm saying if
she had been, she probably could have been a lot more effective.
lili...@gmail.com
But how would Willow know that the knives won't have any effect, when
she hasn't even tried them yet?
Lore
Arbitrar Of Quality
> burt...@hotmail.com schreef:
>
> > What always bugged me about that fight was just how utterly stupid
> > Willow was. The only powers that Glory has are super strength, speed,
> > and invulnerability to physical attacks. She doesn't have any "magical"
> > powers at all, at least not offensive ones. And we've already seen that
> > Willow is a powerful telekenetic, so all she would have had to do was
> > lift Glory up a foot or so off the ground, out of reach of anything she
> > could throw, and Glory would have been *completely helpless.* Then all
> > she would have had to do would be to keep blasting her with that
> > lightning she used (which actually did seem to hurt her).
That's a good thought. Since I didn't think of it, though, I can see
why she didn't either, but your objection does make sense.
> > Now, it's questionable whether Willow could have kept that up long
> > enough to do any significant damage, but it still would have been a
> > much better tactic than throwing knives at her, which she knows won't
> > do anything.
Was the invulnerability to knives established before this?
> That's probably because it would take Willow a lot more effort and
> power to lift Glory up while she was blasting something at her, than it
> would take to throw those knives. Remember Willow's only human, Glory's
> a god, you don't spend all your energy in your first attack and as
> others have already mentioned. Willow became increasingly weaker, with
> every spell she threw at Glory.
Agreed, although maybe if she'd focused on levitating Glory instead of
herself...
-AOQ
~fanwank: witches naturally float when they're bursting with emotion
(seen in a few W/T scenes) or energy. It's a side-effect, not a
controlled effort~
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> In article <12bfj30...@corp.supernews.com>,
> chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
>
>> (Annoyingly. When I was in college, I was on a
>> waiting list for three years before I got a single.)
>
> Every university is different. I only spent one term in residence when
> I was at university, and I had a single room.
Oh, I wasn't annoyed because I didn't believe it. I was annoyed because
it made me envious! (Even now, <cough> years after I graduated.)
Arbitrar Of Quality
Kevin wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> > > This is another one that I watched again recently, and I was struck by how
> > > everything seemed a bit ... thin. It felt like not a lot was happening.
> >
> > I'm telling you, it's the script. The best of ideas can't be truly
> > exciting without the writing being on board.
>
> This thinness/blandness has plagued most of S5 thus far, to which
> you've attested quite a bit in your reviews -- hence you seem
> overgenerous in many final ratings. Everybody's making excuses ("But
> look at these good bits! See, it's still a great show!"), but the
> episodic storytelling and pacing just aren't what they used to be. I
> suppose a keen interest in the newer characters must be sustaining the
> show for some, but I don't really have that.
I wouldn't really agree with "most of." There are times when S5 has
been clicking with the best of them ("Fool For Love" I'm a big fan of,
"Blood Ties" does some very nice things with Dawn to elevate her to the
People I Care About level). But there have definitely been some dry
spells, particularly in what I'd call the "late-season" period in which
"The Body" has been the only standout.
> I'm just glad somebody else finds Glory and her underlings so irritating.
Me too. But at leat she has the personal link to the main cast that
makes her a better villain for this show than someone like Adam (but if
all of her scenes were as painful as in "No Place Like Home," I might
have given up on the year).
-AOQ
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> (There
>> are enough good arguments that people could do polls on Top Arguments the
>> same way they do with favorite fight scenes, best love scenes, top
>> laugh-out-loud moments, etc.)
>
> "Revelations" is an obvious choice, as is BecI. Willow yelling at
> Xander in "Innocence." And because I love going all against the grain
> and stuff, throw in DMP too (more the part in Buffy's room than the
> public part).
I agree with you about the big fight in DMP, especially the bedroom part
with Willow but also the public part. In fact I like the whole episode
a lot more than most people seem to (mainly for its non-zombie parts).
(V rira unir n farnxvat sbaqarff sbe gung bgure, rira yrff cbchyne QZC va
frnfba fvk.)
> What else comes to mind for y'all?
You already mentioned the best ones so far. I also like that fight you
hated in The Yoko Factor, for itself, for Anya and Tara in the bathroom,
and for its place in the development of the whole B-W-X-G relationship.
Not really an argument, but I love the confrontation between Xander and
Angel in Prophecy Girl, both the dramatic part ("You're still in love with
her." "Aren't you?") and the Odd Couple bickering afterwards ("I told you
to eat before we left").
lili...@gmail.com
It's weird how tastes can differ. I mean, no matter how often I try to
watch s3 it bores the hell out of me every single time. (I just can't
connect to Faith, in all honestly, she didn't become interesting to me
till well when she went on Angel. In fact, I only find her interesting
on Angel) The only ep that's halfway interesting in s3 is Lover's walk
(gee, I wonder why*eg*)
And s2 though ok, was just not in the excellent leagues, mostly due to
the B/A melodrama. That and I don't like s2 Spike nearly half as much
as I do latter season Spike.
And don't even get me started on s1 which has only two good eps in the
entire season. Even Firefly is better than s1 of Buffy.
Where as to me the show got good in s4 and s5 is still my favorite
season of the entire show. Even if I do think that s6 and s7 had some
better eps.
Lore
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
>> That felt very realistic to me. And Tara's worry that Willow might just
>> be a Four-Year Lesbian lacked any setup that I could see,
>
> That's because Tara really didn't *have* that worry: That was all
> Willow, whether because of her own insecurity about how Tara might see
> her, or deliberately setting up a strawman argument to divert the
> argument away from Tara's *real* worries, or a little of both.
Good point. It didn't catch my attention while watching, but I just read
a transcript and it *is* definitely all Willow. As for Willow's motives,
I'd pick c.) it was both a strawman argument and her very real
insecurities. Willow's insecurity about Tara's greater experience being
an out lesbian is a weird kind of echo of Tara's insecurity about Willow's
growing magical power.
Rowan Hawthorn
> Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
>>> That felt very realistic to me. And Tara's worry that Willow might just
>>> be a Four-Year Lesbian lacked any setup that I could see,
>> That's because Tara really didn't *have* that worry: That was all
>> Willow, whether because of her own insecurity about how Tara might see
>> her, or deliberately setting up a strawman argument to divert the
>> argument away from Tara's *real* worries, or a little of both.
>
> Good point. It didn't catch my attention while watching, but I just read
> a transcript and it *is* definitely all Willow. As for Willow's motives,
> I'd pick c.) it was both a strawman argument and her very real
> insecurities. Willow's insecurity about Tara's greater experience being
> an out lesbian is a weird kind of echo of Tara's insecurity about Willow's
> growing magical power.
Plus, of course, triggered in part by Willow's relative inexperience
with *any* kind of real relationship, and her past all-too-clear
experiences with how quickly even strong relationships can fall apart.
burt...@hotmail.com
> lili...@gmail.com wrote:
> > burt...@hotmail.com schreef:
> >
> > > What always bugged me about that fight was just how utterly stupid
> > > Willow was. The only powers that Glory has are super strength, speed,
> > > and invulnerability to physical attacks. She doesn't have any "magical"
> > > powers at all, at least not offensive ones. And we've already seen that
> > > Willow is a powerful telekenetic, so all she would have had to do was
> > > lift Glory up a foot or so off the ground, out of reach of anything she
> > > could throw, and Glory would have been *completely helpless.* Then all
> > > she would have had to do would be to keep blasting her with that
> > > lightning she used (which actually did seem to hurt her).
>
> That's a good thought. Since I didn't think of it, though, I can see
> why she didn't either, but your objection does make sense.
>
> > > Now, it's questionable whether Willow could have kept that up long
> > > enough to do any significant damage, but it still would have been a
> > > much better tactic than throwing knives at her, which she knows won't
> > > do anything.
>
> Was the invulnerability to knives established before this?
Well, at the least, Willow knows that Buffy can't hurt Glory
physically. I don't know if the extent of her invulnerability was
known, but I think they knew enough for Willow to know that physical
attacks probably weren't the best choice.
> > That's probably because it would take Willow a lot more effort and
> > power to lift Glory up while she was blasting something at her, than it
> > would take to throw those knives. Remember Willow's only human, Glory's
> > a god, you don't spend all your energy in your first attack and as
> > others have already mentioned. Willow became increasingly weaker, with
> > every spell she threw at Glory.
>
> Agreed, although maybe if she'd focused on levitating Glory instead of
> herself...
>
> -AOQ
> ~fanwank: witches naturally float when they're bursting with emotion
> (seen in a few W/T scenes) or energy. It's a side-effect, not a
> controlled effort~
I can see that. Of course, there's no way to know for sure about any of
this, since there weren't any firm rules for magic ever established on
the show. Basically, the answer is, if the plot called for it, Willow
would have won, if not, she wouldn't have.
vague disclaimer
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> Rowan Hawthorn wrote:
> > > And Tara's worry that Willow might just
> > > be a Four-Year Lesbian lacked any setup that I could see,
> >
> > That's because Tara really didn't *have* that worry: That was all
> > Willow, whether because of her own insecurity about how Tara might see
> > her, or deliberately setting up a strawman argument to divert the
> > argument away from Tara's *real* worries, or a little of both.
>
> That's about the best way to make the scene not-work less that I've
> seen so far. Good thought.
I thought this take was rather obvious. Like an alcoholic trying to
change the subject to anything but her drinking habits. She probably
didn't even realise she was doing it.
--
Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
Timo Hamalainen
Stephen Tempest <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> writes:
>
> Can anyone tell me which came first, Willow going black-eyed here or
> Lyta Alexander going black-eyed on Babylon 5?
Lyta in "The Hour of the Wolf", which aired on 7 Nov 96, and before that
there was G'kar in "Dust to Dust" when he took the telepathy-enhancing drug.
Of course Sapphire and Steel already did the black-eyed thing in 1979.
--
Timo Hamalainen
Tampere University of Technology
Department of Mathematics
Replace 'teispam' with 't' for actual email address
Mel
Stephen Tempest wrote:
>
>
> Can anyone tell me which came first, Willow going black-eyed here or
> Lyta Alexander going black-eyed on Babylon 5?
>
>
I think it was Lyta, toward the end of Season 3 (Walkabout, perhaps?).
Certainly by early Season 4.
The final episodes of S3 aired in fall of 1996, and S4 followed right after.
Mel
Apteryx
news:1152898136.6...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> Apteryx wrote:
>
>> Here (for me) is the worst moment in the series to date. I wouldn't say
>> that
>> Willow floating into the room and the ridiculous magical battle which
>> ensures was where the series jumped the shark, because the series still
>> has
>> some great stuff to come. But that is to the credit of that future great
>> stuff. There are certainly series which have had shark-jumping moments
>> that
>> were not as bad as this (including Happy Days).
>
> Is this tied to your issues with Buffy having friends who aren't
> Ordinary, or is there something specific to this scene? I didn't see
> it as any more ridiculous than anything else on our vampire show, and
> was impressed to see one of Willow's periodic bursts of rage married to
> that kind of power. Feels right. So yeah, pretty much disagreed, even
> though I'm not even sure what exactly is bothering you.
It's not so much tied to my preference for Buffy's friends to be viewer
surrogates (as they were in earlier seasons) because actually Willow is
pretty ordinary here, if you go by results. She might as well have just
walked in and thrown the knives. I think the show takes a giant leap towards
Charmed with the Wizard's Battle Compendium Party Pack of spells that Willow
uses here. If it had worked in harming Glory I might have had issues along
the lines lack of ordinariness, but the fact that it didn't (and that the
viewer knows it won't work, if only because Buffy warns against it, and
while she can be wrong on a lot of things, when she warns anyone against
acting on their feelings, it must be serious) ramps up the ridiculousness.
--
Apteryx
William George Ferguson
wrote:
Plus, we know, but they don't at this point, that the crazies can see Dawn
as a pretty green glowing blob.
Yeah, there was mention in the discussion about the Key, that it was
possible that people with brain damage might see it, but nothing showing
they've done the math on that, and realize they have to keep Dawn away
from crazy people (like Joyce at one point).
--
HERBERT
1996 - 1997
Beloved Mascot
Delightful Meal
He fed the Pack
A little
William George Ferguson
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>
>
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Five, Episode 19: "Tough Love"
>(or "I've had enough of the ruff stuff, baby")
>Writer: Rebecca Rand Kirshner
>Director: David Grossman
Well, I'm a little late to this party, but there comments I have to
comment, and takes I have to take, so...
>"Tough Love" starts with Glory still seeking the Key, and the
>viewer faced with the prospect that she'll go after all the wrong
>people, one at a time, all the while reenacting five hundred more
>versions of the same basic scene with her lackeys. Anyone not realize
>that she'd picked the wrong Key again? In a way, though, this bit of
>bumbling works to disarm the viewer for what's to follow, so the
>construction of the episode improves in my mind now that I've seen
>the end. Meanwhile her Ben life is a starting to fall apart, so I
>guess that answers the question I had awhile ago about that. Makes
>sense. But Weber's getting worse every week. "This is so unfair!
>You're taking everything away from me!" "Not! Now! Please!
>I'm! Ben!" Maybe someone should go all George Lucas on the series
>and insert Christian Kane into the role.
There's stuff here, some explicit, and some implicit, that indicate that
while Glory has been inside Ben pretty much all his life, she's only
started to come out to play for extended periods relatively recently. That
would explain how he could reach the point of his internship before her
increasing appearances caused his life to crash into ruin. Something else
is also established in this episode, but I'll comment on that later.
>Not so excusable are all the other scenes that play like this (the
>principal's office, etc.). I'm just going to focus on the worst,
>which is the five-hour argument between Willow and Tara. This just
>appears out of nowhere because the writers want the two of them to have
>recently fought before Glory enters the picture. At least that's how
>I see it. It's one of the most hollow moments of the whole series
>for me. Not quite "The Yoko Factor" bad, but it's close. And
>it's bad in a very slow manner too, that's light on the wit and
>heavy on seeing how many different issues can be forced into the scene.
As others say, this argument Did Not come out of nowhere. We've seen Tara
fretting about Willow's increasingly powerful, and increasingly careless,
use of magic since at least BvD (aka all season), and in fact one could
make a case that while Tara wasn't fretting about it, the setup that
Willow was doing something worth fretting about goes back much further.
> Then the discussion about whether the Red Witch is gay enough... where
>did that even come from? The hell of it is, there are some moments
>that could've been worth seeing in a better scene - Tara being
>intimidated by Willow's abilities, and the fact that Wil would get
>defensive in response. Again, a good idea or too is buried not only
>beneath bad ideas, but by mediocre writing.
The 'am I gay enough' bit, in my mind, was Willow's defense. Willow has
shown in the past that she is very good at making arguments be about the
other guy, not her. This is just the first time she has done it to Tara.
>With all that being said, is it a surprise that the strongest parts of
>TL are dialogue-scarce and nonverbal scenes? The uncharacteristic
>music does a lot to make the festive culture fair seem gaudy and
>unconvincing, setting the stage for a lot of brooding and making the
>viewer less prepared for the violence to follow. Glory's appearance
>on the bench is a little predictable, but the subsequent images are
>intense. The god casually crushing Tara's hand definitely comes to
>mind, as does Willow racing across the grounds and realizing that
>she's too late as the float passes by. There's some dark humor
>there, in Glory constantly accusing Tara of "lying" (the latter has
>almost no lines during this scene), but the menace stays prominent.
>Later events don't let us down on the impact front, as an important
>character is "damaged" and doesn't get better by the end of the
>show. That's enough to keep one watching.
As someone else mentioned, Tara's quiet defiance here is great.
>I wasn't feeling Hannigan's delivery during the hospital scenes. I
>mention this because she's usually so good with stuff like that. On
>the other hand, I love the whole reveal, her facial expressions in
>particular, as black-eyed Wilow blows her way into Glory's sanctum,
>bristling with cold magical rage. It's been a pleasure watching Geek
>Girl come out of the dark as a major power in the Buffyverse. For a
>second there's even the hope that she'll be the one to find the
>power in herself to take out Glory (and unwittingly unleash something
>even nastier for Buffy to fight, of course). And that's made
>stronger by the fact that her attack doesn't accomplish anything at
>all in the end.
Ah, but it does. Willow hurts Glory, no if, ands or buts. She doesn't
have enough stamina here to take her down, but she showed that she did
have enough raw power. Also, Willow grew progressively weaker, but
(people tend to miss this point) so did Glory. When Buffy arrived, she
was able to stand up to Glory better than in any of their previous
encounters. It still wasn't enough, but, but Glory clearly didn't have as
much available power in the Buffy part of the fight.
So, Glory's power isn't limitless, she can be worn down.
>As an issue of pragmatism and as fall-out from the previous episode,
>Buffy's back to relying on Spike to protect her family. Not like she
>has a huge amount of choice. The too-much-blah-blah-blah problem rears
>its head again. Spike's analysis of Willow's motivations would
>have worked better if it'd been cut down to little more than "I'd
>do it," I think.
The scene would have worked tighter if they had just had Spike's original
disbelief, and followed it immediately with Dawn asking Buffy what she
would do if it had been her (Dawn). In the scene, ultimately, that's what
makes Buffy realize that Willow is going after Glory. It didn't need a
lot of the setup to get there.
>In some ways, I see TL as being this season's equivalent of
>"Choices." That's not a quality comparison (I liked
>"Choices" better, and the attack on Tara may make "Tough Love"
>the more important of the two), but a statement of where it fits into
>the season. These #19s don't change the ultimate conflicts between
>heroes and Big Bad, but move them along to where they need to go,
>giving each side enough information so that the stage can be set for
>the final fight. Such comparisons break down a little when considering
>the memorable conclusion of this one, though. It seems like it'll be
>a reflective ending as the characters sort things out within their
>groups, like at the end of #19s such as "Choices" and "Eyes For
>You." Instead, its arresting when the wall explodes and Glory
>appears (I love windows blowing out. Hard to go wrong with that). The
>Scoobies seem quietly scared already, but then Tara decides that it's
>time to take the story to the next stage... great closing line too.
>For the purposes of drama, we couldn't be safe forever. Although
>getting there wasn't so entertaining, I'm glad we made it to this
>Point B.
Next up, a John Ford western.
BTR1701
burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > Stephen Tempest wrote:
> >
> > > She probably did more damage to Glory than anything else we've seen on
> > > the show, though; and in the end it seemed more that she ran out of
> > > magical energy (or was too drained by pushing the magic too hard, too
> > > long); each of her subsequent spells had less effect than the previous
> > > one until she collapsed, drained.
> >
> > And each spell looks a little less impressive/threatening too, as Glory
> > starts to comment.
>
> What always bugged me about that fight was just how utterly stupid
> Willow was. The only powers that Glory has are super strength, speed,
> and invulnerability to physical attacks. She doesn't have any "magical"
> powers at all, at least not offensive ones. And we've already seen that
> Willow is a powerful telekenetic, so all she would have had to do was
> lift Glory up a foot or so off the ground, out of reach of anything she
> could throw, and Glory would have been *completely helpless.* Then all
> she would have had to do would be to keep blasting her with that
> lightning she used (which actually did seem to hurt her).
Or just teleport Glory into space, the way she teleported her into the
sky a few episodes back, only farther.
Once she's in space, she wouldn't be able to do anything except float
away from the earth for eternity. Super strength and speed and
invulnerability don't do you much good if you have nothing to use them
on. Sometimes the Newtonian laws of motion can be a real bitch...
Arbitrar Of Quality
BTR1701 wrote:
> In article <1152900051.0...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> >
> > What always bugged me about that fight was just how utterly stupid
> > Willow was. The only powers that Glory has are super strength, speed,
> > and invulnerability to physical attacks. She doesn't have any "magical"
> > powers at all, at least not offensive ones. And we've already seen that
> > Willow is a powerful telekenetic, so all she would have had to do was
> > lift Glory up a foot or so off the ground, out of reach of anything she
> > could throw, and Glory would have been *completely helpless.* Then all
> > she would have had to do would be to keep blasting her with that
> > lightning she used (which actually did seem to hurt her).
>
> Or just teleport Glory into space, the way she teleported her into the
> sky a few episodes back, only farther.
Well, she said she wasxn't trying that again anytime soon, and dammit,
she's sticking with it.
But if i'm remembering BT correctly, it took quite awhile for her to
cast the spell then, keeping Glory in sight while four people
distracted her. And that was with Tara's help, and without having any
idea where she'd end up.
-AOQ
Don Sample
BTR1701 <BTR...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
But Willow has yet to show any capacity for actually choosing the
destination for anything that she teleports. (Rira ng gur raq bs frnfba
6, fur'f fnvq gb abg or hc gb gur cbjre yriryf arprffnel sbe
gryrcbegngvba.)
Teleporting someone into space requires a lot of energy. To put
something into orbit around the Earth requires about 30 million joules
per kilogram, and it takes another 20 million joules per kilogram to
send something away from the Earth completely. To send Glory completely
away from the Earth would require about 2.5 billion joules of energy,
the equivalent of exploding half a tonne of TNT. Willow wasn't showing
power levels anywhere near that high. (The Oklahoma City bomb was
equivalent to about 2 tonnes of TNT, and most of its power was wasted,
since it blew up outside the building. If something a quarter its size
had gone off inside the building, there wouldn't have been any building
left. Willow barely scorched the walls of the apartment they were in.)
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> > away from the earth for eternity. Super strength and speed and
> > invulnerability don't do you much good if you have nothing to use them
> > on. Sometimes the Newtonian laws of motion can be a real bitch...
conservation of momentum
cast your clothes in one direction
and you move in the opposite direction
same with expelling spit and other body fluids
might not move very fast
but if you have enuugh time
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
BTR1701
Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> destination for anything that she teleports. (Even at the end of season
> 6, she's said to not be up to the power levels necessary for
> teleportation.)
>
> Teleporting someone into space requires a lot of energy.
How do you know? It might not require any more energy than teleporting
them across the room. We are talking about magick here, not real life.
> To put
> something into orbit around the Earth requires about 30 million joules
> per kilogram, and it takes another 20 million joules per kilogram to
> send something away from the Earth completely.
Only if you're obeying the laws of physics, which magick quite clearly
does not. If she were able to do something equivalent to bending
space-time, she could fold space right next to Glory, push her through
and she'd be obiting Saturn in the blink of an eye.
Don Sample
BTR1701 <BTR...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Willow quite plainly says in a future episode that magic still follows
the rules of physics (No plot spoilers in the following):
"Okay, but if another witch was to do it, where would she
start?" she asks.
"Uh, physics," says Willow. "Principles, basic laws."
"Such as?"
"Um, conservation of energies," says Willow. "You can't really
create or destroy anything, just transfer ... Magic works off
physics."
Which means that the energy needed to do things has to come from
*somewhere*. Willow needs to have access to at least 2.5 gigajoules of
energy if she wants to send Glory off permanently into space.
(The first law of thermodynamics: "You don't get something for nothing,"
is pretty much the most inviolable law that physicists have come up
with. Pretty much all of the others have turned out to have little
loopholes in them, if you try hard enough. You can get away with
breaking them for brief periods of time, in confined spaces, before they
come back and bite you in the ass, but that first one has yet to yield a
loophole.)
Vs Jvyybj pna ivbyngr gur svefg ynj bs gurezbqlanzvpf, gura fur pna
fbyir nyy gurve F6 zbarl ceboyrzf jvgu n fvzcyr yvggyr crecrghny zbgvba
ryrpgevpvgl trarengbe. N yvggyr fcryy gb yvsg jngre hc nsgre vg snyyf
guebhtu n gheovar ubbxrq hc gb n trarengbe, ercrng nq-vasvavghz.
DysgraphicProgrammer
Size [or distance] matters not.
and
Do or do not... there is no try.
If magick obeyed the the laws of physics as we know them, Science would
already have discovered it, studied it, classified it, and turned it
into a technology for use by the porn industry.
Magick works barely even obeys causality, much less conservation of
energy.
Don Sample
"DysgraphicProgrammer" <Matthew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> BTR1701 wrote:
> > In article <dsample-4765AC...@news.giganews.com>, Don
> > Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> > > Teleporting someone into space requires a lot of energy.
> >
> > How do you know? It might not require any more energy than teleporting
> > them across the room. We are talking about magick here, not real life.
>
> Size [or distance] matters not.
> and
> Do or do not... there is no try.
This from the idiot who hadn't figured out Palpatine's game by the
middle of the second movie. Hardly a reliable source.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Five, Episode 19: "Tough Love"
> (or "I've had enough of the ruff stuff, baby")
> Writer: Rebecca Rand Kirshner
> Director: David Grossman
also on the subtle menace front
giles realizes someone is spying from the alley door from a quiet sound
catches one of the hobbits
and then when he asks the women to get some twine
he is only offscreen for a few seconds
and that enough time for giles to break the hobbit
giles is not the best fighter or sorceror
but theres a dark viciousness in him i would not want to meet
also from halloween
Ethan: Oh, and we all know that you are the champion of innocents and
all things pure and good, Rupert. It's quite a little act you've got
going here, old man.
Giles: It's no act. It's who I am.
Ethan: Who you are? The Watcher, sniveling, tweed-clad guardian of the
Slayer and her kin? I think not. I know who you are, Rupert, and I know
what you're capable of. (considers) But they don't, do they? They have
no idea where you come from.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> In article <1152944382.4...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "DysgraphicProgrammer" <Matthew...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > BTR1701 wrote:
> > > In article <dsample-4765AC...@news.giganews.com>, Don
> > > Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
>
> > > > Teleporting someone into space requires a lot of energy.
> > >
> > > How do you know? It might not require any more energy than teleporting
> > > them across the room. We are talking about magick here, not real life.
actually anything is possible but not always probable
you can get something for nothing
you can get an entire universe
at least for a time
(and it can be kept open with charged vacuum emboitments)
and things can be in multiple locations
but for anything much larger than a nucleon
the probability of that is infintesmial
> > Size [or distance] matters not.
> > and
> > Do or do not... there is no try.
>
> This from the idiot who hadn't figured out Palpatine's game by the
> middle of the second movie. Hardly a reliable source.
thats because the jedi were playing the same game
Shuggie
>
>> (There
>> are enough good arguments that people could do polls on Top Arguments the
>> same way they do with favorite fight scenes, best love scenes, top
>> laugh-out-loud moments, etc.)
>
> "Revelations" is an obvious choice, as is BecI. Willow yelling at
> Xander in "Innocence." And because I love going all against the grain
> and stuff, throw in DMP too (more the part in Buffy's room than the
>
Frysyrff
Oh you meant ones you'd seen? Then what you said ;)
--
Shuggie
my blog - http://shuggie.livejournal.com/
Stephen Tempest
>In article <c56fb2drmr4sjm2pn...@4ax.com>,
> Stephen Tempest <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> writes:
>>
>> Can anyone tell me which came first, Willow going black-eyed here or
>> Lyta Alexander going black-eyed on Babylon 5?
>
>Lyta in "The Hour of the Wolf", which aired on 7 Nov 96, and before that
>there was G'kar in "Dust to Dust" when he took the telepathy-enhancing drug.
>
>Of course Sapphire and Steel already did the black-eyed thing in 1979.
Thanks!
Obviously, I never saw either series when first broadcast. I don't
remember the G'kar scene, but with Lyta I remember thinking at the
time "She's doing a Willow"... then it struck me that B5 was actually
the earlier show, though I didn't know the exact dates or whether they
overlapped.
Stephen
Apteryx
news:vnhgb2tvm4rcbo7bq...@4ax.com...
Nobody has said that they have to keep Dawn away from crazy people, but by
now they have seen enough to know that they should. They have seen what we
have seen to know that (Dawn has seen it all, others have seen parts of it).
We know that Giles knew enough before Blood Ties to have noted in his
journal (either from observations reported to him or from the Watchers
Council) that only those outside reality can see the key's true nature. And
once Spike translates that from Gilesese as "Second-sight blokes mostly. Or
even just your run-or the-mill lunatics" that is the first confirmation for
Dawn of the truth of what she overheard, that she is the key.
--
Apteryx
Mel
They were able to send Olaf to the land of the trolls dimension. Why not
send Glory to another dimension as well? Say, the one without shrimp.
Mel
Don Sample
Mel <melb...@uci.net> wrote:
They had to make Olaf sit still for some time in order to send him away
to another dimension. So far that's something that they haven't been
able to make Glory do.
Eric Hunter
>>> as black-eyed Wilow blows her way into Glory's sanctum,
>>> bristling with cold magical rage.
>>
>> Lyta Alexander going black-eyed on Babylon 5?
>>
>
> goes all the way back to the episode "Witch" in Season One. Amy's mom
> goes black-eyed when she's winding up, and so does Amy later in "BB&B"
> and "Gingerbread"
Lyta went black-eyed in "The Hour of the Wolf", Season 4,
Episode 1, aired 1996/11/07, so it pre-dates "The Witch"
by four months.
Eric.
--
Mel
>
They haven't really tried to either. They missed the chance once they
found out where Glory was staying and she had been somewhat worn down by
Willow's attack. Now it's too late. She found them instead.
Bs pbhefr, fraqvat ure gb nabgure qvzrafvba abj jbhyq cerirag Jvyybj
sebz oenva fhpxvat ure naq urnyvat Gnen. Ohg gurl pbhyq unir qbar vg
bapr Ohssl orng ure gb n chyc fb Tvyrf jbhyqa'g unir unq gb xvyy Ora.
Mel
Mel
Stephen Tempest
>They were able to send Olaf to the land of the trolls dimension. Why not
>send Glory to another dimension as well? Say, the one without shrimp.
Wouldn't that be rather unfair to the inhabitants of that dimension?
Not to mention immoral?
Stephen
Don Sample
Mel <melb...@uci.net> wrote:
Every time Buffy has gone near Glory, she's had her ass kicked, and
barely managed to escape with her life. Even with her worn down, going
looking for Glory does not seem like a good idea to me.
Unless the other dimension they send her to is her own, what's to stop
her from coming back and starting to look for the Key all over again?
DysgraphicProgrammer
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Five, Episode 19: "Tough Love"
> (or "I've had enough of the ruff stuff, baby")
> Writer: Rebecca Rand Kirshner
> Director: David Grossman
The first time I saw this, when Willow floated through the door all
black eyed and badass I jumped up from my seat and said: "Holy Crap!
This is going to be cool!" And lo and behold, it was cool.
This is one of those episodes were the writer had a really good Idea
for a scene or two, but spent too much time moving the pieces around
the board before getting there.
> AOQ rating: Decent
>
> [Season Five so far:
> 1) "Buffy Vs. Dracula" - Good
> 2) "Real Me" - Decent
> 3) "The Replacement" - Good
> 4) "Out Of My Mind" - Weak
> 5) "No Place Like Home" - Decent
> 6) "Family" - Excellent
> 7) "Fool For Love" - Excellent
> 8) "Shadow" - Good
> 9) "Listening To Fear" - Decent
> 10) "Into The Woods" - Good
> 11) "Triangle" - Decent
> 12) "Checkpoint" - Decent
> 13) "Blood Ties" - Good
> 14) "Crush" - Excellent
> 15) "I Was Made To Love You" - Weak
> 16) "The Body" - Good
> 17) "Forever" - Decent
> 18) "Intervention" - Decent
> 19) "Tough Love" - Decent]
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
can you even force a god to go a different dimension?
BTR1701
Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
Willow may have said that but she was clearly full of crap. Magick is
the antithesis to physics.
> Vs Jvyybj pna ivbyngr gur svefg ynj bs gurezbqlanzvpf, gura fur pna
> fbyir nyy gurve F6 zbarl ceboyrzf jvgu n fvzcyr yvggyr crecrghny zbgvba
> ryrpgevpvgl trarengbe. N yvggyr fcryy gb yvsg jngre hc nsgre vg snyyf
> guebhtu n gheovar ubbxrq hc gb n trarengbe, ercrng nq-vasvavghz.
Yes, if Willow's magickal abilities were taken to their logical
conclusion, an awful lot of their problems, both natural and
supernatural, would vanish.
Mel
Depends on if there were humans/sentients there or not. A world without
shrimp might be without a lot of other things too.
Mel
Mel
Don Sample wrote:
And every time she was by herself. With Willow and Tara and maybe Giles
with the spellcasting, who knows?
>
> Unless the other dimension they send her to is her own, what's to stop
> her from coming back and starting to look for the Key all over again?
Jryy, fvapr fur pna'g trg onpx gb ure bja qvzrafvba jvgubhg gur Xrl, V'z
thrffvat fur'q or fghpx jurerire gurl fraq ure. Naq Xrl-yrff.
Mel
Don Sample
Mel <melb...@uci.net> wrote:
Well, at this point taking Tara along would tie up at least one other
person wiping away her drool.
>
>
> >
> > Unless the other dimension they send her to is her own, what's to stop
> > her from coming back and starting to look for the Key all over again?
>
>
> Jryy, fvapr fur pna'g trg onpx gb ure bja qvzrafvba jvgubhg gur Xrl, V'z
> thrffvat fur'q or fghpx jurerire gurl fraq ure. Naq Xrl-yrff.
Interdimensional travel in the Buffyverse is pretty simple. Reading the
wrong thing out of a book can send you off to another dimension. Some
dimensions are just harder to get to than others.
Elisi
> Every time Buffy has gone near Glory, she's had her ass kicked, and
> barely managed to escape with her life. Even with her worn down, going
> looking for Glory does not seem like a good idea to me.
>
> Unless the other dimension they send her to is her own, what's to stop
> her from coming back and starting to look for the Key all over again?
V'z thrffvat gung fur vf ybpxrq _va_ Ohssl'f qvzrafvba, engure guna
ybpxrq bhg bs ure bja. Jul ryfr unf fur whfg abg geniyyrq gb n
qvssrerag Uryyqvzrafvba naq frg hc ubzr gurer?
maxims
BTR1701 wrote:
>
> Willow may have said that but she was clearly full of crap. Magick is
> the antithesis to physics.
>
What is this "magick" of which you speak? Is it the same thing as
magic?
maxims
3D Master
>> Willow quite plainly says in a future episode that magic still follows
>> the rules of physics (No plot spoilers in the following):
>>
>> "Okay, but if another witch was to do it, where would she
>> start?" she asks.
>>
>> "Uh, physics," says Willow. "Principles, basic laws."
>>
>> "Such as?"
>>
>> "Um, conservation of energies," says Willow. "You can't really
>> create or destroy anything, just transfer ... Magic works off
>> physics."
>
> Willow may have said that but she was clearly full of crap. Magick is
> the antithesis to physics.
You're wrong, not only in Buffyverse magic, but also real life magic
whatever there is of it. You'll go look up wiccan magic books and stuff,
you'll very quickly get that whole attendum: magical is natural, it
can't do anything that's physically impossible.
3D Master
--
~~~~~
"I've got something to say; it's better to burn out than to fade away!"
- The Kurgan, Highlander
"Give me some sugar, baby!"
- Ashley J. 'Ash' Williams, Army of Darkness
~~~~~
Author of several stories, which can be found here:
http://members.chello.nl/~jg.temolder1/
peachy ashie passion
> BTR1701 wrote:
>
>>> Willow quite plainly says in a future episode that magic still
>>> follows the rules of physics (No plot spoilers in the following):
>>>
>>> "Okay, but if another witch was to do it, where would she
>>> start?" she asks.
>>>
>>> "Uh, physics," says Willow. "Principles, basic laws."
>>>
>>> "Such as?"
>>>
>>> "Um, conservation of energies," says Willow. "You can't really
>>> create or destroy anything, just transfer ... Magic works off
>>> physics."
>>
>>
>> Willow may have said that but she was clearly full of crap. Magick is
>> the antithesis to physics.
>
>
> You're wrong, not only in Buffyverse magic, but also real life magic
> whatever there is of it. You'll go look up wiccan magic books and stuff,
> you'll very quickly get that whole attendum: magical is natural, it
> can't do anything that's physically impossible.
>
>
> 3D Master
Which would be why most of us dont' believe in it. Because if it's
not doing stuff that's impossible, it's not magic.
BTR1701
3D Master <3d.m...@chello.nl> wrote:
> BTR1701 wrote:
> >> Willow quite plainly says in a future episode that magic still follows
> >> the rules of physics (No plot spoilers in the following):
> >>
> >> "Okay, but if another witch was to do it, where would she
> >> start?" she asks.
> >>
> >> "Uh, physics," says Willow. "Principles, basic laws."
> >>
> >> "Such as?"
> >>
> >> "Um, conservation of energies," says Willow. "You can't really
> >> create or destroy anything, just transfer ... Magic works off
> >> physics."
> >
> > Willow may have said that but she was clearly full of crap. Magick is
> > the antithesis to physics.
>
> You're wrong, not only in Buffyverse magic, but also real life magic
> whatever there is of it.
What exactly is this "real life magick" stuff that you speak of?
> You'll go look up wiccan magic books and stuff,
> you'll very quickly get that whole attendum: magical is natural, it
> can't do anything that's physically impossible.
Yeah, yeah... and if I read the bible, I'll get a whole different set of
superstitious hokum, too.
Magic is a fairytale, just like all those stories about water into wine
and pyrotechnic shrubbery directing the course of human events.
BTR1701
<mair_fheal-2B0CF...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > Once she's in space, she wouldn't be able to do anything except float
> > > away from the earth for eternity. Super strength and speed and
> > > invulnerability don't do you much good if you have nothing to use them
> > > on. Sometimes the Newtonian laws of motion can be a real bitch...
>
> conservation of momentum
>
> cast your clothes in one direction
> and you move in the opposite direction
>
> same with expelling spit and other body fluids
>
> might not move very fast
> but if you have enuugh time
And if, in addition to sending her into space, Willow gave her a
magickal push toward the sun greater than she could counter by casting
off her clothes or hocking loogies, then she's still gonna eventually
have a toasty time of it.
Mark Jones
> And if, in addition to sending her into space, Willow gave her a magickal
> push toward the sun greater than she could counter by casting off her
> clothes or hocking loogies, then she's still gonna eventually have a
> toasty time of it.
You know, orbital mechanics being what they are, "a push toward the sun"
from earth would have to be a hell of a push. I'm just saying'.
On the other hand, I agree that the notion that magic is limited by real
world physics is just silly--so maybe she could.
BTR1701
Mark Jones <sin...@pacifier.com> wrote:
Yep, we're back to the "it's magick" response.
(Harmony) Watcher
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1152879111.7...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> <snip>
>
> Notice that in this episode she no longer questions his feelings or the
> fact that they are real: "I'd do it. Right person - person I loved. I'd
> do it!"
>
> We do not know exactly what it is that Spike is feeling, but it makes
> him behave as if he loves her.
>
It's at least the lustful, obsessive kind of "love" which makes one's heart
go pitter-patter and do irrational things. It's the kind as "impure as the
yellow driven snow". Whatever it is called, it's "the golden crown that
makes a man a king."
To me, first and foremost, it's an "identity" problem of sorts for Spike.
William was likely a "good" person before he was killed by Dru. The effect
of having a decent person's memory and, hence, his superego, cannot be
underestimated.
Short version:
The chip restrained the beast, and then the superego of William returned to
battle with the demon-controlled id.
Longer version: The chip restrained the beast. The superego of William came
back to haunt Spike, and regained some control. William's ego re-exerted
itself even more so than ever, and conspired with the super-ego to restrain
the id, much to the confusion of the demon soul inhabiting William's husk.
Second, once William's ego has regained some semblance of its old identity,
it's the same old "fool for love" again that was William the poet. He always
has to fall for the girl who hurt him the most by beating him with "you're
beneath me". [Why does he have to? We all know what Freud would say.]
<rest snipped>
--
==Harmony Watcher==
One Bit Shy
news:1152863838.3...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Five, Episode 19: "Tough Love"
This is so late because I've been struggling to (and eventually gave up)
respond to this in something less than a book. I found myself so far apart
from your perception of the episode I couldn't even get a useful handle on
the structure of your review. (Particularly odd considering this isn't a
comedy.)
So, the hell with it. Very briefly I'll say that I think it's odd to
describe this episode as setting the stage when, baby, the war is already
raging away big time. The run to the end has commenced. Ready or not (and
Buffy is decidedly not ready). I am also in a completely different place
with regards to the dialogue and writing. It's not perfect. (When is it?)
But on the whole I found it engaging, thought provoking, and carefully
constructed to handle multiple interconnected matters of plot and character.
Oh, and there's scads of foundation for the argument. The only part lacking
it is the boys town part. But that's at the end when the argument has
become it's own justification (and awfully one sided) with Willow making
leaps of logic into the wrong places. That part has such a sour note feel
to it, IMO, because part of the point of what we're seeing is that Willow is
fucking up.
Short list of character points.
Giles - Doesn't help Buffy. (Yes, that's what's important about their
scene.)
Spike - Does help Buffy. (The only one who does.)
Willow - Initially disconnected from Buffy - even undermining her. Lost in
all the bru-ha-ha about the fight with Tara is that this disconnect with
Buffy - her inability to get what's up with Buffy - is the main in episode
cause of that fight. And, indeed, the main in story purpose of it. The
object is to get Willow into the same kind of place that Buffy is in,
complete with loss, responsibility, futility vs. Glory, and even arguments
with the object of her love. At the end, Buffy and Willow are connected
again - maybe more than ever.
Dawn - Slapped out of her this isn't real mentality with extreme force. Not
only does she understand Buffy better now, she is acutely conscious of Buffy
as THE lifeline for her to cling to.
Buffy - Aside from her brief, fruitless plea to Giles, she's the stoic
pillar of strength everyone is counting on to stay strong. But the pressure
is excruciating. Now she's run out of time. She has no plan. No way out.
And next to no help. She's been in plenty of bad places before, including
some emotionally raw ones. But she's never had so little to work with, nor
someone depending on her like Dawn. She's in deep trouble and nobody - not
even Spike - is seeing it.
Favorite visual:
Glory in the bubble bath with three blind folded minions attending to her.
(My favorite Glory/minion visual of the season.)
All it needs is for Glory to start singing Rubber Ducky. "When I squeeze
you, you make noise." (Now that would be a hell of an intro to the scene
with Tara.)
Willow's battle planning:
Someone commented on how she shouldn't have expended her magic on floating.
I never saw the floating as something she crafted, but rather as a side
effect of infusing herself with the power used for the initial spells.
Willow doesn't seem to be getting a lot of credit for her battle planning.
Well, obviously there wasn't time (or emotional state of mind) for careful
planning. But I believe the attack was better conceived than given credit
for. First Willow poured the bulk of her energies into what was hoped to be
one killing or at least crippling blow - the lightening when she brought
Glory pain. This actually makes sense. Willow only has so much power and
spells to work with, while Glory is known to be tough. She needs to give
her best spell - her best shot - the greatest opportunity to succeed. Sure,
it doesn't leave much if it fails. But if the best is going to fail, then
she's probably screwed anyway.
But Willow didn't throw everything into the one basket. She had a couple
lower magic energy spells as backups. They do offer different ways of
attacking in case that makes a difference. But their primary purpose isn't
backup - it's cleanup. They're there to follow up in the event that Glory
is crippled by the first attack, rather than destroyed. If she had been,
these might have been far more effective than they ended up looking. The
knife spell, for example, might very well have been very damaging if Glory
had been too weak to bat them away. Unfortunately, even Willow's best spell
wasn't up to the task. I don't think other planning can fix that.
Lastly, she appears to have planned for failure too. The thicken spell she
uses at the end was probably always there for her escape. Unfortunately
Glory hurt Willow first, so she didn't have the chance to use it that way
until Buffy rescued her. But it was part of the plan.
So I don't see this as some haphazard fit by Willow. Mad as she was, she's
still too smart not to come up with a plan of substance. In the end, the
problem wasn't lack of planning. The problem was Glory is a god.
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Flawed but necessary.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
This is a flat out exciting and tense episode. Willow and Tara fight for
the first time ever, throwing a wrench into the workings of the show's great
love story of the moment. It hurts. Glory mindsucks Tara in one of the
great scenes of horror this series has to offer - while still taking a
moment to show heart breaking bravery and determination from Tara. Wow! We
finally get to see a little of what one pissed off witch gets like. (My
emotional peak is actually Willow running into the Magic Box to load up.
But I may be odd that way.) It's not just the power she displays, it's that
she infuses herself with power to become its vessel. That's scary power,
and itself explains a whole lot why Tara speaks of being frightened by
Willow's development. And the show closes with a ripped out wall and Glory
standing a few feet from Dawn, looking right at her, knowing what she is.
And nobody's ready for Glory.
This may not quite be Innocence level tension, but it's pretty hellacious in
itself. This makes it into low Excellent territory for me.
OBS
Rowan Hawthorn
"Magick" is often used IRL to distinguish between "ceremonial" magick
and sleight-of-hand, or "stage" magic. In reference to BtVS and lots of
other fantasy universes, used to distinguish between "real" magick and
stage magic.
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Rowan Hawthorn
And also, remember, they really were not all that *sure* where he
actually went. That's where they were *aiming* for, but:
BUFFY: Where did you send him?
ANYA: The land of the trolls. He’ll like it there. Full of trolls.
WILLOW: It’s hard to be precise, though. Alternate universes don’t stay
put. Trying to send him to a specific place is sort of like… trying to
hit a puppy by throwing a live bee at it. (off their looks) Which is a
weird image and you should all just forget it.
ANYA: It’s possible that he’s in the land of perpetual Wednesday… or
the crazy melty land… or, you know, the world without shrimp.
Olaf may be going nuts trying to find a shrimp cocktail...
Rowan Hawthorn
> In article <1152899081.7...@35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Rowan Hawthorn wrote:
>>>> And Tara's worry that Willow might just
>>>> be a Four-Year Lesbian lacked any setup that I could see,
>>> That's because Tara really didn't *have* that worry: That was all
>>> Willow, whether because of her own insecurity about how Tara might see
>>> her, or deliberately setting up a strawman argument to divert the
>>> argument away from Tara's *real* worries, or a little of both.
>> That's about the best way to make the scene not-work less that I've
>> seen so far. Good thought.
>
> I thought this take was rather obvious.
Me, too. What I get for thinking.
> Like an alcoholic trying to
> change the subject to anything but her drinking habits. She probably
> didn't even realise she was doing it.
Probably not - we've seen for a good long time now that Willow's first
instinct is to lash out when she's hurt or feels cornered about
anything, and she rarely thinks about what she's saying when she does.
(Harmony) Watcher
"Rowan Hawthorn" <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MI-dnQ_m7dp...@giganews.com...
--
==Harmony Watcher==
Don Sample
BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Sending Glory up a few thousand feet damn near killed Willow. Even with
magic, the power to do these things has to come from somewhere. There's
always a cost.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
conservation of momentum
if glory is able to throw clothing at a very high speed
say one third speed of light
she will move in the opposite direction inverse proportional to the masses
so 600 miles per second
(Harmony) Watcher
"mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
news:mair_fheal-F0C9A...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
--
==Harmony Watcher==
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
or whatever else comes to hand
3D Master
Well, the Buffyverse obviously disagrees with you, Willow included.
BTR1701
<mair_fheal-F0C9A...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
If, if, if... if she could have thrown things like that, Buffy wouldn't
have stood a chance in the final battle.
BTR1701
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> In article <btr1702-A230CB...@news.giganews.com>,
> BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <gemini.j2ihc3007...@pacifier.com>,
> > Mark Jones <sin...@pacifier.com> wrote:
> >
> > > BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > And if, in addition to sending her into space, Willow gave her a
> > > > magickal
> > > > push toward the sun greater than she could counter by casting off her
> > > > clothes or hocking loogies, then she's still gonna eventually have a
> > > > toasty time of it.
> > >
> > > You know, orbital mechanics being what they are, "a push toward the sun"
> > > from earth would have to be a hell of a push. I'm just saying'.
> >
> > > On the other hand, I agree that the notion that magic is limited by real
> > > world physics is just silly--so maybe she could.
> >
> > Yep, we're back to the "it's magick" response.
>
> Sending Glory up a few thousand feet damn near killed Willow.
It tired her out and made her dizzy. I saw no evidence that she was near
death.
BTR1701
3D Master <3d.m...@chello.nl> wrote:
No, Willow disagrees with me, not the whole fictional universe. And
Willow may be powerful but she's certainly not error-free when it comes
to magick.
maxims
Rowan Hawthorn wrote:
>
> "Magick" is often used IRL to distinguish between "ceremonial" magick
> and sleight-of-hand, or "stage" magic.
Hmm. Kinda ruins the metaphor in "stage magic" if you ask me.
maxims
Rowan Hawthorn
Not sure there *is* a metaphor in stage magic, since everyone knows that
there's a trick to it, except, possibly, very small children.
Don Sample
BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> In article <dsample-F11164...@news.giganews.com>,
> Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
>
> > In article <btr1702-A230CB...@news.giganews.com>,
> > BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >
> > > In article <gemini.j2ihc3007...@pacifier.com>,
> > > Mark Jones <sin...@pacifier.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > And if, in addition to sending her into space, Willow gave her a
> > > > > magickal
> > > > > push toward the sun greater than she could counter by casting off her
> > > > > clothes or hocking loogies, then she's still gonna eventually have a
> > > > > toasty time of it.
> > > >
> > > > You know, orbital mechanics being what they are, "a push toward the sun"
> > > > from earth would have to be a hell of a push. I'm just saying'.
> > >
> > > > On the other hand, I agree that the notion that magic is limited by real
> > > > world physics is just silly--so maybe she could.
> > >
> > > Yep, we're back to the "it's magick" response.
> >
> > Sending Glory up a few thousand feet damn near killed Willow.
>
> It tired her out and made her dizzy. I saw no evidence that she was near
> death.
It also popped blood vessels, and she was still feeling the effects a
week later.
Magic takes energy to perform. The bigger the magic, the more energy.
Qnegu Ebfraoret unf gb xrrc fgbccvat gb erpunetr ure onggrevrf gb xrrc
hc ure yvggyr enzcntr ng gur raq bs frnfba 6.
Clairel
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Five, Episode 19: "Tough Love"
> Writer: Rebecca Rand Kirshner
> Director: David Grossman
>
> "Tough Love" starts with Glory still seeking the Key, and the
> viewer faced with the prospect that she'll go after all the wrong
> people, one at a time, all the while reenacting five hundred more
> versions of the same basic scene with her lackeys. Anyone not realize
> that she'd picked the wrong Key again? In a way, though, this bit of
> bumbling works to disarm the viewer for what's to follow, so the
> construction of the episode improves in my mind now that I've seen
> the end. Meanwhile her Ben life is a starting to fall apart, so I
> guess that answers the question I had awhile ago about that. Makes
> sense. But Weber's getting worse every week. "This is so unfair!
> You're taking everything away from me!" "Not! Now! Please!
> I'm! Ben!" Maybe someone should go all George Lucas on the series
> and insert Christian Kane into the role.
>
> Meanwhile in what seems like recipe for bad comedy, Buffy decides that
> she needs to keep Dawn on a tighter leash, and overdoes things.
> Happily, the show doesn't drag this out. It throws in a decent smile
> with the geometry study method, and then has Dawn get petulant right
> away and perhaps see how forced it is. This makes Buffy talk about the
> real things that she's afraid of. Not much to say here, it's
> pretty okay.
>
> Considering some of the mentalities that would emerge in the wake of a
> certain crime against humanity later that year, Anya's ramble about
> buying things and patriotism seems a little prophetic. Just a little.
> I like that part, in any case, and it's the only extended bit of
> dialogue-with-crackle for me. "How's about we try being a bit less
> prejudiced, and a bit more inclusive? Not us, just you."
>
> I may have been too hasty in choosing Jane Espenson as my designated
> writer to pick on. Whatever faults Jane may have, no one will accuse
> her of having a tin ear for dialogue. On the other hand, episodes like
> this one and "Out Of My Mind" have scenes that sometimes say the
> right things, but just take forever to say them. It's possible that
> a Buffyverse episode is hurt the most when the rhythm of the dialogue
> starts feeling "off." No matter how good the ideas are, the
> execution has to be up to snuff in order to rival the classics of the
> series, and that's this episode's most glaring flaw. First,
> let's look at the exchange in the training room in which Buffy talks
> to her Watcher about setting boundaries with her sister. Having
> trouble being firm, wanting to dump the responsibility on Giles, and so
> on all makes sense. But the conversation just goes on and on while
> taking twice as much time as it needs to. Now, with this particular
> scene, although it's not hugely exciting to watch, I could maybe
> accept it as "realistic" dialogue. Real people don't talk in
> Whedon-speak, and they sometimes dance around issues and touch on a
> point several times before they finally express it clearly.
>
> Not so excusable are all the other scenes that play like this (the
> principal's office, etc.). I'm just going to focus on the worst,
> which is the five-hour argument between Willow and Tara. This just
> appears out of nowhere because the writers want the two of them to have
> recently fought before Glory enters the picture. At least that's how
> I see it. It's one of the most hollow moments of the whole series
> for me. Not quite "The Yoko Factor" bad, but it's close. And
> it's bad in a very slow manner too, that's light on the wit and
> heavy on seeing how many different issues can be forced into the scene.
> Then the discussion about whether the Red Witch is gay enough... where
> did that even come from? The hell of it is, there are some moments
> that could've been worth seeing in a better scene - Tara being
> intimidated by Willow's abilities, and the fact that Wil would get
> defensive in response. Again, a good idea or too is buried not only
> beneath bad ideas, but by mediocre writing.
>
> With all that being said, is it a surprise that the strongest parts of
> TL are dialogue-scarce and nonverbal scenes? The uncharacteristic
> music does a lot to make the festive culture fair seem gaudy and
> unconvincing, setting the stage for a lot of brooding and making the
> viewer less prepared for the violence to follow. Glory's appearance
> on the bench is a little predictable, but the subsequent images are
> intense. The god casually crushing Tara's hand definitely comes to
> mind, as does Willow racing across the grounds and realizing that
> she's too late as the float passes by. There's some dark humor
> there, in Glory constantly accusing Tara of "lying" (the latter has
> almost no lines during this scene), but the menace stays prominent.
> Later events don't let us down on the impact front, as an important
> character is "damaged" and doesn't get better by the end of the
> show. That's enough to keep one watching.
>
> I wasn't feeling Hannigan's delivery during the hospital scenes. I
> mention this because she's usually so good with stuff like that. On
> the other hand, I love the whole reveal, her facial expressions in
> particular, as black-eyed Wilow blows her way into Glory's sanctum,
> bristling with cold magical rage. It's been a pleasure watching Geek
> Girl come out of the dark as a major power in the Buffyverse. For a
> second there's even the hope that she'll be the one to find the
> power in herself to take out Glory (and unwittingly unleash something
> even nastier for Buffy to fight, of course). And that's made
> stronger by the fact that her attack doesn't accomplish anything at
> all in the end.
>
> As an issue of pragmatism and as fall-out from the previous episode,
> Buffy's back to relying on Spike to protect her family. Not like she
> has a huge amount of choice. The too-much-blah-blah-blah problem rears
> its head again. Spike's analysis of Willow's motivations would
> have worked better if it'd been cut down to little more than "I'd
> do it," I think.
--I certainly agree that the episode Tough Love has its longueurs. In
fact, other than the Glory scenes and the scenes in which Spike
interacts with Dawn and/or Buffy, the episodes is just too too tedious
and draggy .
But the Spike scenes are pure gold! I can't believe you would have
wanted to shorten the "I'd do it" scene, AOQ. Don't you see how
important it is that Spike can now talk to Buffy fairly directly about
how much he loves her, and she doesn't react with horror or disgust any
more? That is a huge step.
Also, I can't believe you had nothing to say about Spike's scene with
Dawn in the caves (before the scene where Buffy shows up, I mean).
Wasn't that a fascinating conversation, about Dawn's dread of being the
key, about vampires and evil, about being "not good" but "okay," etc.?
And what about that moment when Spike feels so much compassion for the
distraught Dawn, reaches out to stroke her hair, and then shyly pulls
back? It's the best thing in the episode.
So what have you got to say, AOQ?!?
Clairel
drifter
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>> threads.
>>
>>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Five, Episode 19: "Tough Love"
>> (or "I've had enough of the ruff stuff, baby")
>> Writer: Rebecca Rand Kirshner
>> Director: David Grossman
/some snippage occurs/
>> Spike's analysis of Willow's motivations would
>> have worked better if it'd been cut down to little more than "I'd
>> do it," I think.
>
> --I certainly agree that the episode Tough Love has its longueurs. In
> fact, other than the Glory scenes and the scenes in which Spike
> interacts with Dawn and/or Buffy, the episodes is just too too tedious
> and draggy .
>
> But the Spike scenes are pure gold!
Ah, Clairel! Shocked . . . SHOCKED I am that you liked the Spike
scenes. It's so unlike you!
--
Kel
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own."