AOQ Review 5-18: "Intervention"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Five, Episode 18: "Intervention"
(or "This Year's Doppelgang-Replacement")
Writer: Jane Espenson
Director: Michael Gershman
I think one of the stages one has to go through to be a true devotee of
this (or any) series is to start getting to know which writers you're
most and least compatible with. One writer may almost always be on the
same page as you, one may write stuff you consistently don't
"get," and so on. You don't need to cringe at the sight of
anyone's name or anything, although it helps if one wants to seem
truly obsessed with the show. I thought maybe I'd be able to join
the herd and target Marti Noxon after S2, but since then, I've liked
the majority of her episodes. Doug Petrie showed a knack for writing
scenes that I really hated last season, but he also wrote some of my
favorites of S3, and his collaborations with Tim Minear this year
(FFL/"Darla," "The Trial") ensure that he gets ruled out as
someone to pick on. So I think I may have to turn my antipathy on Jane
Espenson. I bear her no ill will, but our "personalities" don't
mesh - she sometimes seems to want to turn everything into a joke,
and if it requires tweaking a character's personality or a plot that
doesn't really make sense, well, what of it? "Relax and enjoy the
show." As a little bit of a consistency/continuity freak, that
attitude sometimes drives me nuts. To get even more tongue-in-cheek
about this, even when the two of us mostly get along, there are nagging
issues that make it hard to share living space. For instance,
"Pangs" is the single funniest show that the series thus far has
produced, but it's a little bit marred by the fact that the nominal
story sucks (and doesn't match the buildup as a major crisis), and
more substantially marred by whatever that thing is that replaces
Willow midway through.
"Intervention," the fourth episode by my count (not including
"Pangs") to feature something that looks like one of the main
characters masquerading as him/her, contains things that're energetic
or funny, but at the expense of holding together. I'll give my big
examplar in a second, but first of all, yes, I'm going to complain
that Buffy's friends should've figured out what was going on. One
of the dangers of handing the audience lots of background knowledge
that the characters have to figure out for themselves is that unless
it's written well, the heroes can easily seem thick-headed. They do
here. We never get an answer to "you guys couldn't tell me apart
from a robot?!" and we deserve one. Robo-Buffy's behavior isn't
just weird, it's very obviously mechanical in a way that the gang
should have on their minds, having recently dealt with a robot. The
crew do notice her acting strangely-in-some-way, but it seems to take
longer that it did in "When She Was Bad." And yet Buffy pegs the
imposter as a robot seconds after entering. Does not compute. So as
entertaining as Xander's getting the image of her with Spike,
"Guy-les," and so on are, they don't go down easy.
So, my example of a quote as a microcosm for what bothers me the most
about this show? "Angel's lame. His hair grows straight up, and
he's bloody stupid." That's quite a funny line, especially with
the matter-of-fact delivery. It should also, by all rights, be either
a dead bloody giveaway or at least a step in the direction of putting
things together. I don't accept that Willow wouldn't pick up on at
least some of the significance. On an unrelated note, that brings up
all sorts of other questions (that aren't really especially
important) about the implication that Spike was the one who made all
the decisions about which particular "facts" Robo-Buffy would know.
Why bother to include the drive to Slay and do other non-Spike-focused
things?
The real Buffy is conveniently absent while her imposter wreaks havoc
and such. I like the weighty feel to the opening scene, in which
she's reached the point of dulling her pain by "getting into a
routine." Buffy trying to make sure everyone knows they're loved
is a little bit raw and uncomfortable, in a good way. Giles's
tentative but increasingly persistent attempts to get her back to
training play well, as does his concerned acceptance of the idea that
she might want to retire. That leads into a bit of a mystical quest,
with the wide pans across the desert and the musical score setting the
kind of mood we don't often see on the show. With the Hokey Pokey
thrown in, and seeming even funnier than it would've been otherwise.
The advice that our hero gets seems to embrace love, which I hadn't
expected based on "Restless." With a caveat about love leading to
the Gift Of Death, though. I'm sure it'll at least kinda make
sense someday. Once the First Slayer started talking, I was afraid the
show might have gone a little overboard with the mumbo-jumbo factor...
until Buffy's perfectly timed "what?" Now that's funny.
Nicely handled mini-plot overall.
Glory's torturing Spoik isn't a huge standout sequence for me one
way or the other, but "good plan, Spike" is nice. And the fight at
the end has some energy.
The way this episode plays out raises two major issues with regards to
Spike. The first is his refusal to betray Dawn to save his own skin.
The others naturally expect that he can't be trusted to keep his
mouth shut under such circumstances, and their fear is justified by
everything except what actually happens in "Intervention." His
stated reason is all about concern for another, simply not wanting
Buffy in particular to be in pain. That itself could be traced back to
selfishness, of course, but what kind of altruism can't? It re-blurs
the boundaries of what kind of empathy someone without a soul can feel.
My instinct, and let me emphasize that this is just a first
impression, is to say that this is "wrong." Doesn't seem to sit
quite right. But it does get one thinking, and this is something
I'll have to keep thinking about before making any sweeping
pronouncements. And watching more show, of course.
The second issue is more about Buffy's behavior than Spike's:
Besides a good robot imitation and a good plan to find out what she
needs to know, human-Buffy has a kiss and some gratitude for Spike.
That I'm not buying, particularly the former. There's the
still-recent events of "Crush," and then more immediately there's
the fact that he made a clone of her to have sex with. The latter is
not something that I would expect Buffy to easily forgive and forget,
and the former should make her extra cautious about sending anything
that could be interpreted as mixed signals. Doesn't play well at
all, especially the kiss. Pretending to play along with this, I wonder
whether she knew what she was going to say from the beginning - it
seems more likely that she was playing it by ear and trying to see if
she could get an explanation for his burst of non-evil.
This is one of those rare cases where a followup retroactively
justifies a little bit from several episodes earlier. I wasn't
originally so enamored by the listing of factoids about people and the
cache of files in the April's-eye part of IWMTLY. But if the result
is to set up the subsequent gag this week? I'm all for it.
Even if one ignores the whole gay/bi insanity, "gay (1999-present)"
is wrong. Willow stopped driving stick in 2000. Anyone know if that
was an intentional mistake (i.e. Spike being wrong rather than the
episode being wrong)?
So...
One-sentence summary: Has a good half and a soulless-robot half.
AOQ rating: Decent
[Season Five so far:
1) "Buffy Vs. Dracula" - Good
2) "Real Me" - Decent
3) "The Replacement" - Good
4) "Out Of My Mind" - Weak
5) "No Place Like Home" - Decent
6) "Family" - Excellent
7) "Fool For Love" - Excellent
8) "Shadow" - Good
9) "Listening To Fear" - Decent
10) "Into The Woods" - Good
11) "Triangle" - Decent
12) "Checkpoint" - Decent
13) "Blood Ties" - Good
14) "Crush" - Excellent
15) "I Was Made To Love You" - Weak
16) "The Body" - Good
17) "Forever" - Decent
18) "Intervention" - Decent]
Don Sample
Spike wants his Buffy doll to be like Buffy, and do the things that he
likes doing with Buffy, which includes a good rumble leading to a tumble.
> Glory's torturing Spoik isn't a huge standout sequence for me one
> way or the other, but "good plan, Spike" is nice. And the fight at
> the end has some energy.
"We will bring you Bob Barker! We will bring you the limp and beaten
body of Bob Barker!"
Oh, in the fight, Xander was played by Nick's twin brother, last seen in
"The Replacement." Nick was sick so his brother filled in for him that
day.
> The way this episode plays out raises two major issues with regards to
> Spike. The first is his refusal to betray Dawn to save his own skin.
> The others naturally expect that he can't be trusted to keep his
> mouth shut under such circumstances, and their fear is justified by
> everything except what actually happens in "Intervention." His
> stated reason is all about concern for another, simply not wanting
> Buffy in particular to be in pain. That itself could be traced back to
> selfishness, of course, but what kind of altruism can't? It re-blurs
> the boundaries of what kind of empathy someone without a soul can feel.
> My instinct, and let me emphasize that this is just a first
> impression, is to say that this is "wrong." Doesn't seem to sit
> quite right. But it does get one thinking, and this is something
> I'll have to keep thinking about before making any sweeping
> pronouncements. And watching more show, of course.
When the monks gave Spike all those fake memories of Dawn, they also
programmed him to want to protect her. Everything follows from that.
>
> Even if one ignores the whole gay/bi insanity, "gay (1999-present)"
> is wrong. Willow stopped driving stick in 2000. Anyone know if that
> was an intentional mistake (i.e. Spike being wrong rather than the
> episode being wrong)?
It was still 1999 when she met Tara. (December, but still 1999.) Maybe
Spike used that as the start of her gayness.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
alphakitten
>
> When the monks gave Spike all those fake memories of Dawn, they also
> programmed him to want to protect her. Everything follows from that.
>
Buffy likes Dawn, Spike likes Buffy, Spike protects Dawn for Buffy. I
still don't see why that fanwank is needed?
~Angel
MBangel10 (Melissa)
Jane Espenson is my absolute favorite Btvs writer so I can't agree with
you here. The majority of my favorite episodes were written by her.
>
> "Intervention," the fourth episode by my count (not including
> "Pangs") to feature something that looks like one of the main
> characters masquerading as him/her, contains things that're energetic
> or funny, but at the expense of holding together. I'll give my big
> examplar in a second, but first of all, yes, I'm going to complain
> that Buffy's friends should've figured out what was going on. One
> of the dangers of handing the audience lots of background knowledge
> that the characters have to figure out for themselves is that unless
> it's written well, the heroes can easily seem thick-headed. They do
> here. We never get an answer to "you guys couldn't tell me apart
> from a robot?!" and we deserve one.
Why? Buffy's friends have never seen Buffy go through losing a parent
before so how would they know how she would act? Yes, the Buffybot acted
a little too much off kilter but they kept figuring it was just Buffy
not handling the loss of her mother very well.
Robo-Buffy's behavior isn't
> just weird, it's very obviously mechanical in a way that the gang
> should have on their minds, having recently dealt with a robot. The
> crew do notice her acting strangely-in-some-way, but it seems to take
> longer that it did in "When She Was Bad." And yet Buffy pegs the
> imposter as a robot seconds after entering. Does not compute. So as
> entertaining as Xander's getting the image of her with Spike,
> "Guy-les," and so on are, they don't go down easy.
Even with the Aprilbot being a recent event, dealing with a robot in the
form of Buffy is not something they would have been looking for or even
thinking about. Sure, Buffy figured it out right away because there was
another 'her' in the room at the time.
>
> So, my example of a quote as a microcosm for what bothers me the most
> about this show? "Angel's lame. His hair grows straight up, and
> he's bloody stupid." That's quite a funny line, especially with
> the matter-of-fact delivery. It should also, by all rights, be either
> a dead bloody giveaway or at least a step in the direction of putting
> things together. I don't accept that Willow wouldn't pick up on at
> least some of the significance. On an unrelated note, that brings up
> all sorts of other questions (that aren't really especially
> important) about the implication that Spike was the one who made all
> the decisions about which particular "facts" Robo-Buffy would know.
> Why bother to include the drive to Slay and do other non-Spike-focused
> things?
Again, as much as Willow knows that there is something *off* about her,
a robot wouldn't be the first thing to cross her mind. Remember, Buffy's
mom just kicked it 2 episodes ago, they had that on their minds, not
sexbot the sequel.
Why would Spike want a Buffybot to be as close to the real Buffy that he
could possibly get but with the added bonus of her loving him and
catering to his whims? Because he wants the real Buffy. He doesn't want
just a sextoy, he wants the bot to BE Buffy. He even adamantly tells the
bot to "just be Buffy".
>
> The real Buffy is conveniently absent while her imposter wreaks havoc
> and such. I like the weighty feel to the opening scene, in which
> she's reached the point of dulling her pain by "getting into a
> routine." Buffy trying to make sure everyone knows they're loved
> is a little bit raw and uncomfortable, in a good way. Giles's
> tentative but increasingly persistent attempts to get her back to
> training play well, as does his concerned acceptance of the idea that
> she might want to retire. That leads into a bit of a mystical quest,
> with the wide pans across the desert and the musical score setting the
> kind of mood we don't often see on the show. With the Hokey Pokey
> thrown in, and seeming even funnier than it would've been otherwise.
> The advice that our hero gets seems to embrace love, which I hadn't
> expected based on "Restless." With a caveat about love leading to
> the Gift Of Death, though. I'm sure it'll at least kinda make
> sense someday. Once the First Slayer started talking, I was afraid the
> show might have gone a little overboard with the mumbo-jumbo factor...
> until Buffy's perfectly timed "what?" Now that's funny.
> Nicely handled mini-plot overall.
Excellent scene and Giles "hokey pokey" dance was priceless. Also, yes
the first Slayers message is one to hold on to.
>
> Glory's torturing Spoik isn't a huge standout sequence for me one
> way or the other, but "good plan, Spike" is nice. And the fight at
> the end has some energy.
Awe, the quips back and forth... The key being Bob Barker? Glory
threatening to peel him like an apple in one long strip? The bad home
perm and lopsided ass?
That was a damn great scene.
>
> The way this episode plays out raises two major issues with regards to
> Spike. The first is his refusal to betray Dawn to save his own skin.
> The others naturally expect that he can't be trusted to keep his
> mouth shut under such circumstances, and their fear is justified by
> everything except what actually happens in "Intervention." His
> stated reason is all about concern for another, simply not wanting
> Buffy in particular to be in pain. That itself could be traced back to
> selfishness, of course, but what kind of altruism can't? It re-blurs
> the boundaries of what kind of empathy someone without a soul can feel.
Indeed it does. It also began the the arguments of the Spike is purely
evil/Spike has a touch of humanity arguments that have been going on for
years now with no end in sight.
> My instinct, and let me emphasize that this is just a first
> impression, is to say that this is "wrong." Doesn't seem to sit
> quite right. But it does get one thinking, and this is something
> I'll have to keep thinking about before making any sweeping
> pronouncements. And watching more show, of course.
I love the way they wrote Spike in this episode because it does raise
questions and yes, it should be wrong. Why did he do it? Why would he
risk his life for Dawn's? One could argue that he did it so Buffy
wouldn't stake him (but if he got killed doing it what is the point?) or
did he do it purely because of his feelings for Buffy (and
subsequently, her sister)?
Points to ponder.
>
> The second issue is more about Buffy's behavior than Spike's:
> Besides a good robot imitation and a good plan to find out what she
> needs to know, human-Buffy has a kiss and some gratitude for Spike.
> That I'm not buying, particularly the former. There's the
> still-recent events of "Crush," and then more immediately there's
> the fact that he made a clone of her to have sex with. The latter is
> not something that I would expect Buffy to easily forgive and forget,
> and the former should make her extra cautious about sending anything
> that could be interpreted as mixed signals. Doesn't play well at
> all, especially the kiss. Pretending to play along with this, I wonder
> whether she knew what she was going to say from the beginning - it
> seems more likely that she was playing it by ear and trying to see if
> she could get an explanation for his burst of non-evil.
I think in all honesty, he surprised the hell out of her. She went in
expecting to hear that he'd sold them out and instead, he tells her that
he'd die for her and almost had. I think at that moment she gave him a
simple thank you. It wasn't a kiss that was meant to lead him on, it was
a kiss that said "thank you for risking your life to protect us".
Also, as she was leaving, she pretty much tells him what she views as
right and wrong. The bot? Not real, and her thoughts on it. Protecting
her sister? that was real.
I think Spike learns a lesson here.
>
> This is one of those rare cases where a followup retroactively
> justifies a little bit from several episodes earlier. I wasn't
> originally so enamored by the listing of factoids about people and the
> cache of files in the April's-eye part of IWMTLY. But if the result
> is to set up the subsequent gag this week? I'm all for it.
I got a kick out of both of them, actually.
>
> Even if one ignores the whole gay/bi insanity, "gay (1999-present)"
> is wrong. Willow stopped driving stick in 2000. Anyone know if that
> was an intentional mistake (i.e. Spike being wrong rather than the
> episode being wrong)?
I never really even thought about it to be honest.
>
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Has a good half and a soulless-robot half.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
I give this one an Excellent. It's my 3rd favorite episode of the season.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> "Pangs") to feature something that looks like one of the main
> characters masquerading as him/her, contains things that're energetic
> or funny, but at the expense of holding together. I'll give my big
buffy has a good continuity
but they are willing to give up continuty for the sake of a story
thats just what you have to live with if you want to watch
> kind of mood we don't often see on the show. With the Hokey Pokey
> thrown in, and seeming even funnier than it would've been otherwise.
i find buffys irresistable -and thats what its all about- the funniest part
> The advice that our hero gets seems to embrace love, which I hadn't
> expected based on "Restless." With a caveat about love leading to
> the Gift Of Death, though. I'm sure it'll at least kinda make
its a bit like the anakin amidala conservation in star wars ii
about jedi and love
> The second issue is more about Buffy's behavior than Spike's:
> Besides a good robot imitation and a good plan to find out what she
> needs to know, human-Buffy has a kiss and some gratitude for Spike.
> That I'm not buying, particularly the former. There's the
> still-recent events of "Crush," and then more immediately there's
> the fact that he made a clone of her to have sex with. The latter is
i dont feel she really felt endangered ibn crush
until harmony walked and distracted spike long enough for drusilla to free
up to that point buffy is willing to stand there
but once drusilla starts to get out of her ropes
thats when buffy starts fighting her own chains
so shes very irritated with spike but i dont think she fears him
nor does he plumb depths below her expectations
but his willingness to withstand torture is above her expectations
and regardless of her persomal feelings she recognizes
what he did for dawn and herself
> Even if one ignores the whole gay/bi insanity, "gay (1999-present)"
> is wrong. Willow stopped driving stick in 2000. Anyone know if that
he couldnt get giles name right either
i was surprised at what a 8pm show allowed onscreen and just barely out of frame
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
Wes <>
<tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>
>
>The way this episode plays out raises two major issues with regards to
>Spike. The first is his refusal to betray Dawn to save his own skin.
>The others naturally expect that he can't be trusted to keep his
>mouth shut under such circumstances, and their fear is justified by
>everything except what actually happens in "Intervention." His
>stated reason is all about concern for another, simply not wanting
>Buffy in particular to be in pain. That itself could be traced back to
>selfishness, of course, but what kind of altruism can't? It re-blurs
>the boundaries of what kind of empathy someone without a soul can feel.
> My instinct, and let me emphasize that this is just a first
>impression, is to say that this is "wrong." Doesn't seem to sit
>quite right. But it does get one thinking, and this is something
>I'll have to keep thinking about before making any sweeping
>pronouncements. And watching more show, of course.
>
That's a reply-generating paragraph if ever there was one.
Did Spike keep the secret because that's just the way he is?
Minions barge into HIS crypt, kidnap him and tie him up for Glory to
pound on. Not something Spike would want to give in to IMO.
Did Glory remind him of Harmony?
Maybe he wants Dawn around because she talks to him and not at him.
Was he thinking about happy meals on legs again?
Did he sense a good Bob Barker joke coming up?
Maybe he did remember how bad Buffy felt when she found out Joyce was
ill or when she saw Riley with his vampfriend and Spike really didn't
want to be the cause of more bad feelings. (Either because of the
effect on Buffy or because he thinks he's already pushed the Slayer
too far.)
The reason Spike gives is at least half about Buffy: "Something
happened to Dawn it'd destroy her." but Spike is still a part of it:
"I couldn't live, her being in that much pain."
As you say, it probably requires more thought.
Of course he still doesn't have a soul so even if he learned anything
he may not be able to apply it.
>The second issue is more about Buffy's behavior than Spike's:
>Besides a good robot imitation and a good plan to find out what she
>needs to know, human-Buffy has a kiss and some gratitude for Spike.
>That I'm not buying, particularly the former. There's the
>still-recent events of "Crush," and then more immediately there's
>the fact that he made a clone of her to have sex with. The latter is
>not something that I would expect Buffy to easily forgive and forget,
>and the former should make her extra cautious about sending anything
>that could be interpreted as mixed signals. Doesn't play well at
>all, especially the kiss. Pretending to play along with this, I wonder
>whether she knew what she was going to say from the beginning - it
>seems more likely that she was playing it by ear and trying to see if
>she could get an explanation for his burst of non-evil.
>
She didn't know whether he had told Glory about Dawn or not so it's
doubtful she had her response planned out.
You wouldn't kiss the guy who just saved your sisters life?
Wes
Apteryx
news:1152675260.0...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> this (or any) series is to start getting to know which writers you're
> most and least compatible with. One writer may almost always be on the
> same page as you, one may write stuff you consistently don't
> "get," and so on. You don't need to cringe at the sight of
> anyone's name or anything, although it helps if one wants to seem
> truly obsessed with the show. I thought maybe I'd be able to join
> the herd and target Marti Noxon after S2, but since then, I've liked
> the majority of her episodes. Doug Petrie showed a knack for writing
> scenes that I really hated last season, but he also wrote some of my
> favorites of S3, and his collaborations with Tim Minear this year
> (FFL/"Darla," "The Trial") ensure that he gets ruled out as
> someone to pick on. So I think I may have to turn my antipathy on Jane
> Espenson.
I think that may be the single most significant reason for differences
between my ratings and yours. Of the 5 writers who got sole writing credit
for 10 or more BtVS episodes, my ratings for Jane Espenson's episodes
average 2nd only to Whedon's. Noxon actually ranks 3rd for me amongst those
5 main writers, but the average rating for her epsiodes (and obviously for
Fury and Petrie below her) is below the overall BtVS average (by about a
quarter of a point in her case), whereas my average ratings for Espenson
episodes are about a quarter of a point above the BtVS average; Whedon's
average is just short of a full point above the BtVS average. And in Jane
Espenson's case in particular, it is her sense of humour that gets me to
rate her episodes as highly as I do.
> examplar in a second, but first of all, yes, I'm going to complain
> that Buffy's friends should've figured out what was going on. One
> of the dangers of handing the audience lots of background knowledge
> that the characters have to figure out for themselves is that unless
> it's written well, the heroes can easily seem thick-headed. They do
> here. We never get an answer to "you guys couldn't tell me apart
> from a robot?!" and we deserve one.
Buffy has an obvious advantage over her friends in spotting the Buffy-bot -
she knows its not her. And she claims to be able be able to detect physical
differences ("At least it's not a very good copy") even though they are not
apparent to her friends or the viewer, and like her, its played by SMG. The
fact that her friends don't leap to the conclusion "robot" is required to
make the joke work. Maybe it strains credulity (obviously it strained yours)
but she has been behaving oddly by her normal standards at least since The
Body, and since then has gone to the desert for a mystical experience. I
don't think her friends can be sure how she might act now.
> least some of the significance. On an unrelated note, that brings up
> all sorts of other questions (that aren't really especially
> important) about the implication that Spike was the one who made all
> the decisions about which particular "facts" Robo-Buffy would know.
> Why bother to include the drive to Slay and do other non-Spike-focused
> things?
Even when he had Harmony dress up as Buffy, he had her act the part of the
Slayer. It's part of what she is.
> she might want to retire. That leads into a bit of a mystical quest,
> with the wide pans across the desert and the musical score setting the
> kind of mood we don't often see on the show. With the Hokey Pokey
> thrown in, and seeming even funnier than it would've been otherwise.
I loved the line "I know this ritual! The ancient shamans were next called
upon to do the hokey-pokey and turn themselves around"
>
> The way this episode plays out raises two major issues with regards to
> Spike. The first is his refusal to betray Dawn to save his own skin.
> The others naturally expect that he can't be trusted to keep his
> mouth shut under such circumstances, and their fear is justified by
> everything except what actually happens in "Intervention." His
> stated reason is all about concern for another, simply not wanting
> Buffy in particular to be in pain. That itself could be traced back to
> selfishness, of course, but what kind of altruism can't? It re-blurs
> the boundaries of what kind of empathy someone without a soul can feel.
We know a soul isn't necessary for empathy. We've seen Spike display empathy
for Drusilla from his very first episode. We've seen him behaving
protectively to Dawn before. We've even seen Buffy rely on him to protect
Joyce and Dawn. In fact I have a problem with the fact that everyone is in a
rush to kill him when they know Glory has captured him. It seems to be to
either too late, or in too much of a hurry, but I can't find any way to
interpret things so its just right. If Buffy and the gang suppose that he
will readily betray Dawn, why wasn't he staked as soon as he knew she was
the key? But if they have any reason to suppose he is inclined to protect
Dawn (like for instance the fact that in Checkpoint Buffy asked him to and
he did) they seem to be jumping to conclusions.
>
> The second issue is more about Buffy's behavior than Spike's:
> Besides a good robot imitation and a good plan to find out what she
> needs to know, human-Buffy has a kiss and some gratitude for Spike.
> That I'm not buying, particularly the former. There's the
> still-recent events of "Crush," and then more immediately there's
> the fact that he made a clone of her to have sex with. The latter is
> not something that I would expect Buffy to easily forgive and forget,
She doesn't. She says so, just after kissing him,
> and the former should make her extra cautious about sending anything
> that could be interpreted as mixed signals. Doesn't play well at
> all, especially the kiss.
It does for me. It may have been unwise, given the potential for mixed
signals. But her gratitude is proportianal to her concern for Dawn and to
what Spike went through to protect her.
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Has a good half and a soulless-robot half.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
To me its a comfortable Good, and much closer to Excellent than to Decent.
It's my 27th favourite BtVS episode, 2nd best in season 5.
--
Apteryx
Don Sample
wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1152675260.0...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > she might want to retire. That leads into a bit of a mystical quest,
> > with the wide pans across the desert and the musical score setting the
> > kind of mood we don't often see on the show. With the Hokey Pokey
> > thrown in, and seeming even funnier than it would've been otherwise.
>
> I loved the line "I know this ritual! The ancient shamans were next called
> upon to do the hokey-pokey and turn themselves around"
That scene always gives me Londo Mollari flashbacks.
Elisi
> but first of all, yes, I'm going to complain
> that Buffy's friends should've figured out what was going on. One
> of the dangers of handing the audience lots of background knowledge
> that the characters have to figure out for themselves is that unless
> it's written well, the heroes can easily seem thick-headed. They do
> here. We never get an answer to "you guys couldn't tell me apart
> from a robot?!" and we deserve one.
As other people have said - they weren't expacting it. Remember
'Doppelgangland'? Xander and Buffy met Vamp!Willow in the Bronze in
that *very* tight leather outfit - and never realised that it wasn't
'their' Willow until she growled. And nobody thought that Bursting Into
Tears Buffy from Triangle was unreal.
> So, my example of a quote as a microcosm for what bothers me the most
> about this show? "Angel's lame. His hair grows straight up, and
> he's bloody stupid." That's quite a funny line, especially with
> the matter-of-fact delivery. It should also, by all rights, be either
> a dead bloody giveaway or at least a step in the direction of putting
> things together. I don't accept that Willow wouldn't pick up on at
> least some of the significance.
I actually re-watched this episode the day before yesterday (it's one
of my 3 favourites in the season), and looking at Willow's face after
that, I think Willow figures that Buffy has just gone slightly insane.
(And then Xander bursts through the door, confirming it.)
On an unrelated note, that brings up
> all sorts of other questions (that aren't really especially
> important) about the implication that Spike was the one who made all
> the decisions about which particular "facts" Robo-Buffy would know.
> Why bother to include the drive to Slay and do other non-Spike-focused
> things?
He wants her to 'be Buffy'. Notice how he has her ask to him to bite
her... and then he gently nibbles her neck. (And the first thing her
does is go down on her! He's one devoted guy!) He loves Buffy as she is
- human, righteous, caring, Slayer. He's put himself at the center of
her world, rather than Dawn, but apart from that she really is
remarkably similar to the real one. (Apart from the lame conversation:
"Darn your sinistar attraction." - once a bad poet, always a bad poet).
> The real Buffy is conveniently absent while her imposter wreaks havoc
> and such. I like the weighty feel to the opening scene, in which
> she's reached the point of dulling her pain by "getting into a
> routine." Buffy trying to make sure everyone knows they're loved
> is a little bit raw and uncomfortable, in a good way. <snip>
> The advice that our hero gets seems to embrace love, which I hadn't
> expected based on "Restless." With a caveat about love leading to
> the Gift Of Death, though. I'm sure it'll at least kinda make
> sense someday. Once the First Slayer started talking, I was afraid the
> show might have gone a little overboard with the mumbo-jumbo factor...
> until Buffy's perfectly timed "what?" Now that's funny.
> Nicely handled mini-plot overall.
"Love is pain, and the Slayer forges strength from pain. Love ... give
... forgive. Risk the pain. It is your nature. Love will bring you to
your gift."
I love that. And - here's Buffy from 'Something Blue':
"I know it's nuts, but.. part of me believes that real love and passion
have to go hand in hand with pain and fighting."
(stakes vampire)
"I wonder where I get that from."
> The way this episode plays out raises two major issues with regards to
> Spike. The first is his refusal to betray Dawn to save his own skin.
> The others naturally expect that he can't be trusted to keep his
> mouth shut under such circumstances, and their fear is justified by
> everything except what actually happens in "Intervention."
I never realised that this episode follows straight after 'Disharmony'.
That makes it all the more interesting.
> His
> stated reason is all about concern for another, simply not wanting
> Buffy in particular to be in pain. That itself could be traced back to
> selfishness, of course, but what kind of altruism can't? It re-blurs
> the boundaries of what kind of empathy someone without a soul can feel.
> My instinct, and let me emphasize that this is just a first
> impression, is to say that this is "wrong." Doesn't seem to sit
> quite right. But it does get one thinking, and this is something
> I'll have to keep thinking about before making any sweeping
> pronouncements. And watching more show, of course.
Other people have attempted to answer this, but I'll try something
people haven't mentioned before. I said about Harmony that she might
still have betrayed them whilst human. I think who Spike once was,
plays into this. From what we've seen he was a hopeless romantic -
caught up in a world of beauty. And at that point he might have been
casting himself in the role of brave, loyal knight, withstanding
torture for the sake of his beloved, even if she'd never know - a tale
of tragedy and loss and unsung heroes...
I don't know, but I thought maybe that'd work for you?
> The second issue is more about Buffy's behavior than Spike's:
> Besides a good robot imitation and a good plan to find out what she
> needs to know, human-Buffy has a kiss and some gratitude for Spike.
> That I'm not buying, particularly the former. There's the
> still-recent events of "Crush," and then more immediately there's
> the fact that he made a clone of her to have sex with. The latter is
> not something that I would expect Buffy to easily forgive and forget,
(Love. Give. Forgive.)
> and the former should make her extra cautious about sending anything
> that could be interpreted as mixed signals. Doesn't play well at
> all, especially the kiss. Pretending to play along with this, I wonder
> whether she knew what she was going to say from the beginning - it
> seems more likely that she was playing it by ear and trying to see if
> she could get an explanation for his burst of non-evil.
There is in the scene at the beginning, with Buffy telling Giles and
Dawn that she loves them, Dawn's line: "Buffy - it feels weird." To
which Buffy replies: "Weird love is better than no love." That instant
there is a cut to Spike and the BuffyBot. That tells us something.
Spike's love may be twisted and weird - but it is love none the less. I
think Buffy realises this by the end. ("What you did for me and Dawn,
that was real.")
There are two themes in this episode: Love and reality. I think love
might be mentioned more often that in any other episode ever - it's
fascinating.
I have to go, but I might be back later... this one is so very rich! I
love episodes with layers. :)
> AOQ rating: Decent
Straight Excellent for me.
Paul Hyett
:
>
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Five, Episode 18: "Intervention"
>(or "This Year's Doppelgang-Replacement")
>Writer: Jane Espenson
>Director: Michael Gershman
>
>I think one of the stages one has to go through to be a true devotee of
>this (or any) series is to start getting to know which writers you're
>most and least compatible with. One writer may almost always be on the
>same page as you, one may write stuff you consistently don't
>"get," and so on.
You'd think - but in the case of Joss Whedon, he's written as many
episodes I've hated, as ones I've loved.
>You don't need to cringe at the sight of
>anyone's name or anything, although it helps if one wants to seem
>truly obsessed with the show. I thought maybe I'd be able to join
>the herd and target Marti Noxon after S2, but since then, I've liked
>the majority of her episodes.
Same here.
--
Paul 'Charts Fan' Hyett
lili...@gmail.com
I have to say that this ep is probably in my top five of the entire
series. It's also the episode that turned me from a halfhearted willing
to tollerate B/A fan, into a fullscale redemptionista and B/S shipper.
It's also the ep that holds the first moment in the entire series where
I realized that James was attractive.
(so sue me, the guy looks hot covered in blood and wounds, chained up,
....collared... oh wait, that last one is just in my dreams*eg*)
See the point about the Buffybot, is that Spike basically doesn't just
want a sexbot. Sex alone is not enough for him, if that was all he
wanted, he'd have settled for Harmony.
He wanted a Buffy who can kick his ass, who can beat him, but still
love him. He wanted a Buffy who cares for her friends, wants to slay
and likes being on top. And even then, part of him was already
realizing that the bot wouldn't be enough. Notice that while she's
going down on him, he's already looking bored with her?
It's because she's not Buffy. No matter how much he wants her to be.
I also like the Glory scene, because Spike in pain, but defiant is a
weakness of mine, it's just such a if you forgive me the pun, glorious
moment for him. Protecting Dawn, showing that there's more in him, than
just evil.
It's probably the third best episode of my favorite season(which if you
hadn't guessed it yet, is s5)
Lore
3D Master
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Five, Episode 18: "Intervention"
> (or "This Year's Doppelgang-Replacement")
> Writer: Jane Espenson
> Director: Michael Gershman
>
> Spike. The first is his refusal to betray Dawn to save his own skin.
> The others naturally expect that he can't be trusted to keep his
> mouth shut under such circumstances, and their fear is justified by
> everything except what actually happens in "Intervention." His
> stated reason is all about concern for another, simply not wanting
> Buffy in particular to be in pain. That itself could be traced back to
> selfishness, of course, but what kind of altruism can't? It re-blurs
> the boundaries of what kind of empathy someone without a soul can feel.
> My instinct, and let me emphasize that this is just a first
> impression, is to say that this is "wrong." Doesn't seem to sit
> quite right. But it does get one thinking, and this is something
> I'll have to keep thinking about before making any sweeping
> pronouncements. And watching more show, of course.
When we find out about Spike's supposedly reason why he didn't say
anything, notice something significant. Buffy's there, faking that she's
the robot, under the ridiculous reason that Willow repaired the
Buffy-bot, like Buffy would let Willow repair the thing and Spike keep
his Buffy sex-toy. More importantly; Buffy's isn't a robot. Buffy
doesn't have metal parts, Buffy doesn't have servo motors, hydraulic
pumps, metal equivalent of a heart, a metal skull, etc. etc. Unlike the
robot though, Buffy does have sweat. With Spike's enhanced vampire
senses, especially his sense of smell and Buffy-bot's metal and lack of
sweat, there is no way in hell that Spike doesn't know this is the real
Buffy and not the robot. Yet, he acts as if he doesn't know, which tells
something rather significant: he's lying through his teeth.
There's really only one reason why he didn't tell Glory about the Key,
because she looks at Vampires with even less care than humans and
Slayers, I think the average human gives more care to an insect. The
moment he would have told her; she dust him to be rid of the annoying
insect. He didn't tell her anything to save his own hide.
3D Master
--
~~~~~
"I've got something to say; it's better to burn out than to fade away!"
- The Kurgan, Highlander
"Give me some sugar, baby!"
- Ashley J. 'Ash' Williams, Army of Darkness
~~~~~
Author of several stories, which can be found here:
http://members.chello.nl/~jg.temolder1/
3D Master
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njnl sebz ure sevraqf, flfgrzngvpnyyl gelvat gb frire gung pbaarpgvba,
ur'f ohfl gelvat gb tvir ure gung irel cnva fb ur pbhyq unir ure. Naq ur
xabjf vg gbb; urer, naq va bgure cynprf ur'f bsgra rabhtu erznexrq ba
ubj Ohssl'f fgeratgu pbzrf sebz ure pbaarpgvba jvgu snzvyl naq sevraqf,
hayvxr bgure Fynlref.
3D Master
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>> His
>> stated reason is all about concern for another, simply not wanting
>> Buffy in particular to be in pain. That itself could be traced back to
>> selfishness, of course, but what kind of altruism can't? It re-blurs
>> the boundaries of what kind of empathy someone without a soul can feel.
>> My instinct, and let me emphasize that this is just a first
>> impression, is to say that this is "wrong." Doesn't seem to sit
>> quite right. But it does get one thinking, and this is something
>> I'll have to keep thinking about before making any sweeping
>> pronouncements. And watching more show, of course.
>
> Other people have attempted to answer this, but I'll try something
> people haven't mentioned before. I said about Harmony that she might
> still have betrayed them whilst human. I think who Spike once was,
> plays into this. From what we've seen he was a hopeless romantic -
> caught up in a world of beauty. And at that point he might have been
> casting himself in the role of brave, loyal knight, withstanding
> torture for the sake of his beloved, even if she'd never know - a tale
> of tragedy and loss and unsung heroes...
>
> I don't know, but I thought maybe that'd work for you?
Nah, he's just making sure he lives. Besides, getting tortured also
gives him pleasure; it's the way he's planning on getting Dru back. He
isn't in half as bad a place as a human would be.
>> The second issue is more about Buffy's behavior than Spike's:
>> Besides a good robot imitation and a good plan to find out what she
>> needs to know, human-Buffy has a kiss and some gratitude for Spike.
>> That I'm not buying, particularly the former. There's the
>> still-recent events of "Crush," and then more immediately there's
>> the fact that he made a clone of her to have sex with. The latter is
>> not something that I would expect Buffy to easily forgive and forget,
>
> (Love. Give. Forgive.)
>
>> and the former should make her extra cautious about sending anything
>> that could be interpreted as mixed signals. Doesn't play well at
>> all, especially the kiss. Pretending to play along with this, I wonder
>> whether she knew what she was going to say from the beginning - it
>> seems more likely that she was playing it by ear and trying to see if
>> she could get an explanation for his burst of non-evil.
>
> There is in the scene at the beginning, with Buffy telling Giles and
> Dawn that she loves them, Dawn's line: "Buffy - it feels weird." To
> which Buffy replies: "Weird love is better than no love." That instant
> there is a cut to Spike and the BuffyBot. That tells us something.
> Spike's love may be twisted and weird - but it is love none the less. I
> think Buffy realises this by the end. ("What you did for me and Dawn,
> that was real.")
Except of course he didn't. He endured it to make sure he wasn't killed.
The moment he tells Glory about the key, he's dust. And it isn't love;
vampires can't love. He's obsessing; he's stalked her, he's stolen her
underwear and clothing, he's attempted to have her killed, now he's
built a robot copy. He's not in love, he's obsessed.
vague disclaimer
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Five, Episode 18: "Intervention"
> (or "This Year's Doppelgang-Replacement")
> Writer: Jane Espenson
> Director: Michael Gershman
>
> Glory's torturing Spoik isn't a huge standout sequence for me one
> way or the other, but "good plan, Spike" is nice. And the fight at
> the end has some energy.
>
> The way this episode plays out raises two major issues with regards to
> Spike. The first is his refusal to betray Dawn to save his own skin.
And it would have saved his own skin in what way now? Exactly what use
would Glory have for Spike once she had the goods?
Spike gives up Dawn, Spike dies.
Spike chooses (un)life.
There's no reason to believe that Buffy wouldn't be genuinely grateful
to anyone who went to the mat for Dawn, especially given the changed
circumstances since Crush. And the tart lecture on real and not real
suggest that she was all too aware that the motive may not have been
pure - but *right here, right now* it doesn't matter. He delivered.
> This is one of those rare cases where a followup retroactively
> justifies a little bit from several episodes earlier. I wasn't
> originally so enamored by the listing of factoids about people and the
> cache of files in the April's-eye part of IWMTLY. But if the result
> is to set up the subsequent gag this week? I'm all for it.
>
> Even if one ignores the whole gay/bi insanity, "gay (1999-present)"
> is wrong. Willow stopped driving stick in 2000. Anyone know if that
> was an intentional mistake (i.e. Spike being wrong rather than the
> episode being wrong)?
>
Hush aired in 1999. Hot lesbo action ensued.
>
--
Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
alphakitten
> Elisi wrote:
>
>> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> >
>
>>> His
>>> stated reason is all about concern for another, simply not wanting
>>> Buffy in particular to be in pain. That itself could be traced back to
>>> selfishness, of course, but what kind of altruism can't? It re-blurs
>>> the boundaries of what kind of empathy someone without a soul can feel.
>>> My instinct, and let me emphasize that this is just a first
>>> impression, is to say that this is "wrong." Doesn't seem to sit
>>> quite right. But it does get one thinking, and this is something
>>> I'll have to keep thinking about before making any sweeping
>>> pronouncements. And watching more show, of course.
>>
>>
>> Other people have attempted to answer this, but I'll try something
>> people haven't mentioned before. I said about Harmony that she might
>> still have betrayed them whilst human. I think who Spike once was,
>> plays into this. From what we've seen he was a hopeless romantic -
>> caught up in a world of beauty. And at that point he might have been
>> casting himself in the role of brave, loyal knight, withstanding
>> torture for the sake of his beloved, even if she'd never know - a tale
>> of tragedy and loss and unsung heroes...
>>
>> I don't know, but I thought maybe that'd work for you?
>
>
> Nah, he's just making sure he lives. Besides, getting tortured also
> gives him pleasure; it's the way he's planning on getting Dru back.
Er, Spike was planning to get Dru back by getting himself tortured,
when? And he very obviously wasn't experiencing pleasure.
~Angel
Elisi
> Nah, he's just making sure he lives. Besides, getting tortured also
> gives him pleasure;
But of course! It's all so obvious now. That's probably also the reason
he didn't tell - he wanted to be tortured some more!
> it's the way he's planning on getting Dru back.
I think Dru's a special case. We've not seen any other vamps getting
off on being tortured (except the crazy one in'Helpless'). Violence and
fighting - yes. Torture - no.
He
> isn't in half as bad a place as a human would be.
A human would most likely be dead.
> Except of course he didn't. He endured it to make sure he wasn't killed.
> The moment he tells Glory about the key, he's dust. And it isn't love;
> vampires can't love. He's obsessing; he's stalked her, he's stolen her
> underwear and clothing, he's attempted to have her killed, now he's
> built a robot copy. He's not in love, he's obsessed.
Whatever. He's experiencing an emotion that he calls love. And it has
enough in common with what we call love to be recognised as similar in
nature, if twisted. Remember 'Lovers Walk' and Spike's speech about
love that he gave Buffy and Angel. Neither of them told him that he was
wrong, because he was a soulless vampire that couldn't possibly know
what love was about. Not even Angel who should know! Instead they both
seemed to take it to heart, and Buffy even broke up with Angel as a
direct result.
(And btw I don't think Spike is suddenly a good guy and that he never
did anything nasty or that he's just misunderstood. But I *do* think
that there's more to him than just straightforward EVIL!)
maxims
Elisi wrote:
(of Spike)
>I *do* think
> that there's more to him than just straightforward EVIL!)
Well, evil comes in all sorts of flavours. Spike can have all sorts of
intriguing, perhaps even admirable characteristics and still be evil,
which is how I would have defined him up to this point (he's a clever,
witty, brave, devoted, cool, sarcastic mass murderer). But in this
episode he really begins to change (I mean change internally - the chip
modified his behaviour, creating external change, but falling in love
with Buffy - or getting obsessed with her, I'm not too fussed by the
terms at this stage in his development - has kick started a process of
internal change, where he *wants* to be different). He's still evil,
but he has a reason to want not to be and to try to act differently.
And for what it's worth, I don't think you have to be good in order to
want to be good. I don't think goodness is an inherent quality, any
more than evilness is. It all comes down to what you do, not what you
are. Spike is at a disadvantage because he doesn't actually know why
certain kinds of actions qualify as "good", but that doesn't prevent
him from deciding that he wants to know and he wants to change. Whether
this decision is the result of "loving" Buffy or being "obsessed" with
her doesn't seem important to me - what matters is that he makes it,
and he acts on it. (I side with the "Spike kept his mouth shut for
Buffy's sake" people here, because I think it makes for a much more
interesting story if that's his motivation than if he was just hoping
to buy time in order to try to escape. And since this is a work of
fiction we're dealing with, I don't really see the point in opting for
the less interesting interpretation - it's not as if there were some
"truth" or "reality" behind the story, so why not go with the better
story?)
Maxims
Elisi
Excellent points, eloquently put. I couldn't agree more. :)
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> threads.
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Five, Episode 18: "Intervention"
> (or "This Year's Doppelgang-Replacement")
> Writer: Jane Espenson
> Director: Michael Gershman
> and if it requires tweaking a character's personality or a plot that
> doesn't really make sense, well, what of it? "Relax and enjoy the
> show." As a little bit of a consistency/continuity freak, that
> attitude sometimes drives me nuts.
While I don't share your feelings about Espenson specifically, I do feel
much the same way about consistency/continuity in general. Even when c/c
problems set up a great joke, there's still a certain nagging irritation
that keeps me from enjoying the joke unreservedly.
> it's written well, the heroes can easily seem thick-headed. They do
> here. We never get an answer to "you guys couldn't tell me apart
> from a robot?!" and we deserve one. Robo-Buffy's behavior isn't
> just weird, it's very obviously mechanical in a way that the gang
> should have on their minds, having recently dealt with a robot. The
> crew do notice her acting strangely-in-some-way, but it seems to take
> longer that it did in "When She Was Bad." And yet Buffy pegs the
> imposter as a robot seconds after entering. Does not compute.
I wouldn't go that far. None of the behaviors that Buffy's friends
actually witnessed struck me as unambiguously robotic. And remember,
Buffy was the only one who really had any serious interaction with April.
The others just saw her for a few minutes and got asked if they knew where
Warren was. So it makes sense that Buffy is the only one who spots a
robot at first glance. This part only required a *small* suspension of
disbelief from me.
> So, my example of a quote as a microcosm for what bothers me the most
> about this show? "Angel's lame. His hair grows straight up, and
> he's bloody stupid." That's quite a funny line, especially with
> the matter-of-fact delivery. It should also, by all rights, be either
> a dead bloody giveaway or at least a step in the direction of putting
> things together. I don't accept that Willow wouldn't pick up on at
> least some of the significance.
Willow seemed to be starting to catch on, before she was distracted by the
news that Glory had captured Spike. I don't think robothood is the first
thing that should have come to Willow's mind, though. If you start from
the premise that traumatized Buffy had started a (sick) relationship with
Spike, then adopting some of Spike's attitudes about Angel would seem to
fit right in.
> On an unrelated note, that brings up
> all sorts of other questions (that aren't really especially
> important) about the implication that Spike was the one who made all
> the decisions about which particular "facts" Robo-Buffy would know.
> Why bother to include the drive to Slay and do other non-Spike-focused
> things?
Several people have already responded to this. Essentially, Spike is in
love with Buffy the Vampire Slayer, not just Buffy Summers the ordinary
young woman, so that's what he wanted the robot to be. But I'd disagree
with anyone who might say that Spike made a strong, respect-worthy
roboBuffy. Instead, he made her not just in love with him, but obedient
and *utterly dependent* on him.
Interesting that, while Spike himself kinda likes Dawn, the robot built
according to his specs does not seem concerned about Dawn at all. How
well does he really understand Buffy?
My favorite thing about this episode is that it spends a lot of time
playing with how completely, utterly *wrong* a Buffy-Spike love would be.
For example:
TARA: Everyone, before we jump all over her, people do strange things when
someone they love dies. When I lost my mother, I did some pretty dumb
stuff, like lying to my family and staying out all night.
ANYA: Buffy's boinking Spike.
WILLOW: Oh.... Well, Tara's right. Grief can be powerful, and we
shouldn't judge--
TARA: What, are you kidding? She's nuts!
WILLOW: Well, it's not healthy, we're all agreeing there.
To any sane character on the show, the very idea of Buffy-Spike love
and/or boinkage is clearly out of the question. (Even if he *does* have
chiseled cheekbones and an alpha male attitude and a cool leather coat.)
And it's *only* because the episode has made this very clear that the
final scene can even come close to working. If all these earlier scenes
hadn't ballasted the final one, I would have been on my feet shrieking
"BULLSHIT!" when Buffy kissed Spike. But as it is, I can sort of buy it.
Or at least tolerate it.
As far as Spike's resisting torture goes, he's clearly got several
motivations. He does love Buffy (in an inhuman, vampish sort of way), and
doesn't want to hurt her by getting her sister killed. He is pissed off
at the bitch-god who kidnapped him and doesn't want to give her any
satisfaction. And he does like Dawn, though I doubt that that alone would
be enough to make him sacrifice his life for her. So his conduct here is
if anything overdetermined.
Bar guvat V pna'g erzrzore -- ng guvf cbvag qbrf Fcvxr, be nalbar sbe gung
znggre, xabj gung Tybel trggvat gur Xrl jvyy eryrnfr uryy ba rnegu?
A lot of good humor in this episode. Bob Barker is perhaps my favorite,
though the Hokey-Pokey is a strong contender. Meanwhile, my favorite
NON-humorous line is Xander to Spike: "Buffy has lots of friends, and we
love her very much, and we'll do whatever it takes to protect her. Now if
that means killing you, then, well, that's just a bonus." Not a joke, but
I always make a satisfied little "heh" sound whenever I see that bit.
Spike gets so much mileage out of his strutting, sneering attitude, it's
always a satisfying change of pace to see someone put him in his place.
> AOQ rating: Decent
I give it a solid mid-range Good.
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
>> built a robot copy. He's not in love, he's obsessed.
>
> Whatever. He's experiencing an emotion that he calls love. And it has
> enough in common with what we call love to be recognised as similar in
> nature, if twisted.
THAT, I think, is the right answer to the whole sterile "can vampires
love?" debate. At least some vampires can feel love, but it isn't exactly
the same as what we humans call love.
(As far as love vs. obsession goes, I think Spike is experiencing *both*
here.)
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> his Buffy sex-toy. More importantly; Buffy's isn't a robot. Buffy
> doesn't have metal parts, Buffy doesn't have servo motors, hydraulic
> pumps, metal equivalent of a heart, a metal skull, etc. etc. Unlike the
> robot though, Buffy does have sweat. With Spike's enhanced vampire
> senses, especially his sense of smell and Buffy-bot's metal and lack of
> sweat, there is no way in hell that Spike doesn't know this is the real
> Buffy and not the robot.
Except Spike also failed to realize that April was a robot. The only
explanation is that Warren's robots are lifelike enough to have human
scent, hide the sound of motors and pumps, etc.
Rowan Hawthorn
> 3D Master <3d.m...@chello.nl> wrote:
>
>> his Buffy sex-toy. More importantly; Buffy's isn't a robot. Buffy
>> doesn't have metal parts, Buffy doesn't have servo motors, hydraulic
>> pumps, metal equivalent of a heart, a metal skull, etc. etc. Unlike the
>> robot though, Buffy does have sweat. With Spike's enhanced vampire
>> senses, especially his sense of smell and Buffy-bot's metal and lack of
>> sweat, there is no way in hell that Spike doesn't know this is the real
>> Buffy and not the robot.
>
> Except Spike also failed to realize that April was a robot. The only
> explanation is that Warren's robots are lifelike enough to have human
> scent, hide the sound of motors and pumps, etc.
Of course, where *this* episode is concerned, Spike has just had the
living crap beat out of him and his whole face is bruised and swollen,
which indicates that his enhanced vampire physiology works *similar* to
a human's in *some* respects, anyway. I'd strongly suspect that - just
like *people* who get their face beat to hamburger - his enhanced
vampire senses aren't exactly firing on all cylinders at the moment.
For all the bitching and whining about the show taking liberties with
reality, some of those doing the bitching and whining don't seem to have
much experience with it, either...
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Elisi
> chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> > Except Spike also failed to realize that April was a robot. The only
> > explanation is that Warren's robots are lifelike enough to have human
> > scent, hide the sound of motors and pumps, etc.
>
> Of course, where *this* episode is concerned, Spike has just had the
> living crap beat out of him and his whole face is bruised and swollen,
> which indicates that his enhanced vampire physiology works *similar* to
> a human's in *some* respects, anyway. I'd strongly suspect that - just
> like *people* who get their face beat to hamburger - his enhanced
> vampire senses aren't exactly firing on all cylinders at the moment.
I got *thisclose* to pointing those things out, but you beat me! There
is of course also the tiny matter of what the writer thought. From the
shooting script:
SPIKE
Buffy - the other... the not-as-pleasant
Buffy. Something happened to Dawn
it'd destroy her. I couldn't live, her
being in that much pain. I'd let Glory
kill me first. Nearly bloody did.
She thinks about that. Then she leans in and kisses him on the mouth,
gently and sweetly. After a moment, he pulls back, startled. There is a
long beat as Spike realizes the several ramifications of what has
happened. Finally he asks...
~~~
Do you think this'll convince him? ;)
Rowan Hawthorn
Absolutely. I also think Bill Gates is gonna swoop in here any day now
and write me a check for half his bank account just to get an hour of my
time and my suggestions for improving the next version of Windows.
But then, I'm optimistic.
Or delusional. Something like that.
William George Ferguson
>Elisi wrote:
>> There is in the scene at the beginning, with Buffy telling Giles and
>> Dawn that she loves them, Dawn's line: "Buffy - it feels weird." To
>> which Buffy replies: "Weird love is better than no love." That instant
>> there is a cut to Spike and the BuffyBot. That tells us something.
>> Spike's love may be twisted and weird - but it is love none the less. I
>> think Buffy realises this by the end. ("What you did for me and Dawn,
>> that was real.")
>
>Except of course he didn't. He endured it to make sure he wasn't killed.
>The moment he tells Glory about the key, he's dust. And it isn't love;
>vampires can't love.
Oh, they can, you know. They can love very well indeed, if not wisely.
>He's obsessing; he's stalked her, he's stolen her
>underwear and clothing, he's attempted to have her killed, now he's
>built a robot copy. He's not in love, he's obsessed.
They are not mutually exclusive.
If the word 'love' bothers you, let's use another word, skroik. Spike
skroiks Buffy. By that I mean that he feels all the emotions and exhibits
all the behavior associated with love, that in every way measurable and
observable, 'skroik' exactly matches up to 'love', except that he's a
vampire.
'Skroik' quacks like a duck.
--
HERBERT
1996 - 1997
Beloved Mascot
Delightful Meal
He fed the Pack
A little
One Bit Shy
news:e92130$fou$1...@emma.aioe.org...
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> In fact I have a problem with the fact that everyone is in a rush to kill
> him when they know Glory has captured him. It seems to be to either too
> late, or in too much of a hurry, but I can't find any way to interpret
> things so its just right. If Buffy and the gang suppose that he will
> readily betray Dawn, why wasn't he staked as soon as he knew she was the
> key? But if they have any reason to suppose he is inclined to protect Dawn
> (like for instance the fact that in Checkpoint Buffy asked him to and he
> did) they seem to be jumping to conclusions.
Buffy asked Spike to protect Dawn before Crush and the whole Drusilla
incident. At this point Spike is seriously on the outs with everybody -
especially now that he's been shown to have gotten a Buffy sexbot built for
himself. It's highly unlikely that Buffy would take Dawn to Spike after
that. And I imagine that the Drusilla incident appalled Buffy on multiple
levels. Aside from being disgusted at Spike's perverse desires and ways,
she would see Spike's offering of Dru's life to her as evidence that he
would betray anybody for his self interest. (She also has the Yoko Factor
and Out Of My Mind experiences to remind her of Spike's willingness to
betray her and sacrifice others.) So I think she and everybody were well
primed to assume he'd blab. Buffy was flat out ready to stake him this
time - finally - because of the freshly perceived risk to Dawn.
That's what makes what Spike actually did so stunning to her. I don't think
Spike actually acted out of character at all. But Buffy has been a few
steps behind in getting his mindset all along. So this was news to her.
Required her to re-assess Spike - again.
OBS
One Bit Shy
news:1152685759.6...@35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> "Love is pain, and the Slayer forges strength from pain. Love ... give
> ... forgive. Risk the pain. It is your nature. Love will bring you to
> your gift."
>
> I love that. And - here's Buffy from 'Something Blue':
>
> "I know it's nuts, but.. part of me believes that real love and passion
> have to go hand in hand with pain and fighting."
>
> (stakes vampire)
>
> "I wonder where I get that from."
In the interest of perverse thinking <g>, the whole love is pain thing
always reminds me of Buffy's line in Crush.
"I do beat him up a lot. For Spike that's like third base."
See? They have more in common than they realize!
OBS
One Bit Shy
news:1152709137....@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Nice post. Especially, from my point of view, the relative unimportance of
distinguishing love from obsession at this point in time. What matters now
is how his behavior is affected. How he's choosing to act counter to his
old vampire ways.
OBS
One Bit Shy
news:l64o-1rj5-1EDC3...@mercury.nildram.net...
> In article <1152675260.0...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>> The way this episode plays out raises two major issues with regards to
>> Spike. The first is his refusal to betray Dawn to save his own skin.
>
> And it would have saved his own skin in what way now? Exactly what use
> would Glory have for Spike once she had the goods?
>
> Spike gives up Dawn, Spike dies.
>
> Spike chooses (un)life.
I think Spike is smart enough (and experienced at it - see Adam) to try
offering assistance to Glory in getting Dawn. Perhaps a deal along the
lines of, "You can kill me if you want, but that won't get you the sodding
key. Unchain me and I'll take you to it right now."
Spike's in a weak position no matter what, but some kind of play like that
strikes me as the strongest option if staying alive were his only
motivation.
I think the real answer is what Spike and the episode go out of their way to
say it is. He did it to protect Dawn for Buffy's sake.
OBS
Don Sample
3D Master <3d.m...@chello.nl> wrote:
> Nah, he's just making sure he lives. Besides, getting tortured also
> gives him pleasure; it's the way he's planning on getting Dru back. He
> isn't in half as bad a place as a human would be.
Spike enjoys being the torturer, not the torcheree.
One Bit Shy
news:12b9vjv...@corp.supernews.com...
> Bar guvat V pna'g erzrzore -- ng guvf cbvag qbrf Fcvxr, be nalbar sbe gung
> znggre, xabj gung Tybel trggvat gur Xrl jvyy eryrnfr uryy ba rnegu?
No.
Elisi
> When the monks gave Spike all those fake memories of Dawn, they also
> programmed him to want to protect her. Everything follows from that.
I remember reading a fic once where Angelus had put Spike under a
lovespell in S2, so that he'd fall for the Slayer. Everything followed
from that! It's a lot more fun than your theory, explains why Dru
dumped him and is just as impossible to prove! ;)
cry...@panix.com
> On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 12:39:39 +0200, 3D Master <3d.m...@chello.nl> wrote:
>
> > He's obsessing; he's stalked her, he's stolen her underwear
> > and clothing, he's attempted to have her killed, now he's
> > built a robot copy. He's not in love, he's obsessed.
>
> They are not mutually exclusive.
>
> If the word 'love' bothers you, let's use another word, skroik.
> Spike skroiks Buffy.
Can we make up a less dirty sounding word? . . . Wait.
Nevermind. Continue :-)
> 'Skroik' quacks like a duck.
Now my mental image is even WEIRDER.
--
-Crystal
John Briggs
>> is wrong. Willow stopped driving stick in 2000. Anyone know if that
>> was an intentional mistake (i.e. Spike being wrong rather than the
>> episode being wrong)?
>
> Maybe Spike used that as the start of her gayness.
More to the point, Oz left in November 1999, which would be when Willow
stopped driving stick - even if she hadn't realised it :-)
--
John Briggs
Michael Ikeda
news:e92130$fou$1...@emma.aioe.org:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1152675260.0...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
>>review
>> threads.
>>
>>
>
>> she might want to retire. That leads into a bit of a mystical
>> quest, with the wide pans across the desert and the musical
>> score setting the kind of mood we don't often see on the show.
>> With the Hokey Pokey thrown in, and seeming even funnier than
>> it would've been otherwise.
>
> I loved the line "I know this ritual! The ancient shamans were
> next called upon to do the hokey-pokey and turn themselves
> around"
>
This one is just full of fun little moments. For example...
"Dawn, if there are any plates in your room, let's have them before
they get furry and we have to name them."
"Oh, I was there, it really wasn't that bad. See, if you were
really a witch, you could do a spell to escape."
"Darn your sinister attraction."
"It's got last week's notes too. Just get it back to me by
Thursday. And, uh, don't write in it or, or, uh, put a coffee mug
down on it, or anything. And, and, just don't spill. Okay. Oh, oh,
and don't fold the page corners down. Bye!"
"You're the BIG bad!"
"People. Friends of mine. You're forgetting the most important
thing. Glory has Spike and she's going to harm him."
"You're right. He's evil. (smiles) But you should see him naked. I
mean really."
"At least it's not a very good copy."
"We're safe, right. And, uh, Spike built a robot Buffy to play
checkers with."
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Don Sample
Michael Ikeda <mmi...@erols.com> wrote:
> "It's got last week's notes too. Just get it back to me by
> Thursday. And, uh, don't write in it or, or, uh, put a coffee mug
> down on it, or anything. And, and, just don't spill. Okay. Oh, oh,
> and don't fold the page corners down. Bye!"
You'd think that she loaned her notes to Jenny once.
vague disclaimer
Maybe - it's not something I especially care about onw way or t'other. I
was more pointing out that giving up Dawn wouldn't have saved his skin,
but more likely doomed it (sorry, too late to thinking of a skin related
death metaphor, since tanned doesn't seen to fit).
James Craine
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Five, Episode 18: "Intervention"
> (or "This Year's Doppelgang-Replacement")
> On an unrelated note, that brings up
> all sorts of other questions (that aren't really especially
> important) about the implication that Spike was the one who made all
> the decisions about which particular "facts" Robo-Buffy would know.
> Why bother to include the drive to Slay and do other non-Spike-focused
> things?
Because it makes it 'Buffy' and not 'fungible cute blond
girl'. Suppose I wanted an 'Emma Peel'-bot. The artistic
part of her personality doesn't interest me, especially
since it was abstract art. But if I were to commission such
a project I would have every known aspect of EP built into
the 'bot because otherwise it wouldn't be 'Emma Peel'. It
would just be some sex'bot I commissioned who looked like
Diana Rigg (nothing wrong with that mind you, but it would
not be 'Emma').
> The second issue is more about Buffy's behavior than Spike's:
> Besides a good robot imitation and a good plan to find out what she
> needs to know, human-Buffy has a kiss and some gratitude for Spike.
> That I'm not buying, particularly the former. There's the
> still-recent events of "Crush," and then more immediately there's
> the fact that he made a clone of her to have sex with. The latter is
> not something that I would expect Buffy to easily forgive and forget,
> and the former should make her extra cautious about sending anything
> that could be interpreted as mixed signals. Doesn't play well at
> all, especially the kiss.
You make a good point, but when I saw it it 'felt' right,
not fake or forced. (Unlike your example of the gang not
noticing that it wasn't the real Buffy for so long.)
Mel
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Five, Episode 18: "Intervention"
> (or "This Year's Doppelgang-Replacement")
> Writer: Jane Espenson
> Director: Michael Gershman
>
> I think one of the stages one has to go through to be a true devotee of
> this (or any) series is to start getting to know which writers you're
> most and least compatible with. One writer may almost always be on the
> same page as you, one may write stuff you consistently don't
> "get," and so on. You don't need to cringe at the sight of
> anyone's name or anything, although it helps if one wants to seem
> truly obsessed with the show. I thought maybe I'd be able to join
> the herd and target Marti Noxon after S2, but since then, I've liked
> the majority of her episodes. Doug Petrie showed a knack for writing
> scenes that I really hated last season, but he also wrote some of my
> favorites of S3, and his collaborations with Tim Minear this year
> (FFL/"Darla," "The Trial") ensure that he gets ruled out as
> someone to pick on. So I think I may have to turn my antipathy on Jane
> Espenson. I bear her no ill will, but our "personalities" don't
> mesh - she sometimes seems to want to turn everything into a joke,
> and if it requires tweaking a character's personality or a plot that
> doesn't really make sense, well, what of it? "Relax and enjoy the
> show." As a little bit of a consistency/continuity freak, that
> attitude sometimes drives me nuts. To get even more tongue-in-cheek
> about this, even when the two of us mostly get along, there are nagging
> issues that make it hard to share living space. For instance,
> "Pangs" is the single funniest show that the series thus far has
> produced, but it's a little bit marred by the fact that the nominal
> story sucks (and doesn't match the buildup as a major crisis), and
> more substantially marred by whatever that thing is that replaces
> Willow midway through.
>
> "Intervention," the fourth episode by my count (not including
> "Pangs") to feature something that looks like one of the main
> characters masquerading as him/her, contains things that're energetic
> or funny, but at the expense of holding together. I'll give my big
> examplar in a second, but first of all, yes, I'm going to complain
> that Buffy's friends should've figured out what was going on. One
> of the dangers of handing the audience lots of background knowledge
> that the characters have to figure out for themselves is that unless
> it's written well, the heroes can easily seem thick-headed. They do
> here. We never get an answer to "you guys couldn't tell me apart
> from a robot?!" and we deserve one. Robo-Buffy's behavior isn't
> just weird, it's very obviously mechanical in a way that the gang
> should have on their minds, having recently dealt with a robot. The
> crew do notice her acting strangely-in-some-way, but it seems to take
> longer that it did in "When She Was Bad." And yet Buffy pegs the
> imposter as a robot seconds after entering. Does not compute. So as
> entertaining as Xander's getting the image of her with Spike,
> "Guy-les," and so on are, they don't go down easy.
This is my big beef with this episode too. I already thought they were
more than a bit thick for not noticing "Buffy is Faith" in Who Are You?
but here they are just downright idiotic. Especially considering every
single one of them pegged April for a robot right away.
I like the rest of it, but this big stupidity moment kind of ruins the
enjoyment of the Buffybot character.
Mel
James Craine
3D Master wrote:
> Nah, he's just making sure he lives. Besides, getting tortured also
> gives him pleasure; it's the way he's planning on getting Dru back. He
> isn't in half as bad a place as a human would be.
The way I rember the quote went "I know what I've got to do.
I'll just grab her, tie her up, and torture her.... until
she loves me again. So long, your friends are in the factory."
drifter
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Five, Episode 18: "Intervention"
/some snippage occurs/
> but first of all, yes, I'm going to complain
> that Buffy's friends should've figured out what was going on. One
> of the dangers of handing the audience lots of background knowledge
> that the characters have to figure out for themselves is that unless
> it's written well, the heroes can easily seem thick-headed. They do
> here. We never get an answer to "you guys couldn't tell me apart
> from a robot?!"
In TYG/WAY? Tara could tell Buffy wasn't Buffy because of her "energy"
was "fragmented." Did she suddenly lose the ability to see this?
Favorite part was BuffyBot's million-watt smile. I don't recall that we
ever
saw Buffy smile like this.
--
Kel
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own."
peachy ashie passion
I think they were just so freaked out by the Spike boinking, they
lost their tiny minds and didn't pay attention.
burt...@hotmail.com
drifter wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > threads.
> >
> >
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Five, Episode 18: "Intervention"
>
> /some snippage occurs/
>
> > but first of all, yes, I'm going to complain
> > that Buffy's friends should've figured out what was going on. One
> > of the dangers of handing the audience lots of background knowledge
> > that the characters have to figure out for themselves is that unless
> > it's written well, the heroes can easily seem thick-headed. They do
> > here. We never get an answer to "you guys couldn't tell me apart
> > from a robot?!"
>
> In TYG/WAY? Tara could tell Buffy wasn't Buffy because of her "energy"
> was "fragmented." Did she suddenly lose the ability to see this?
Good catch.
One Bit Shy
news:1152675260.0...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Five, Episode 18: "Intervention"
> I think one of the stages one has to go through to be a true devotee of
> this (or any) series is to start getting to know which writers you're
> most and least compatible with...
> ...So I think I may have to turn my antipathy on Jane
> Espenson.
It's ok AOQ. You don't have to create a special Espenson theory to hide it.
We already know you don't have a sense of humor. Don't run from it.
Embrace it. Announce to the world that you laugh in the face of their
pitiful humor!.... Wait. That doesn't quite work, does it? OK. Blame
Espenson then.
> "Intervention," the fourth episode by my count (not including
> "Pangs") to feature something that looks like one of the main
> characters masquerading as him/her, contains things that're energetic
> or funny, but at the expense of holding together. I'll give my big
> examplar in a second, but first of all, yes, I'm going to complain
> that Buffy's friends should've figured out what was going on. One
> of the dangers of handing the audience lots of background knowledge
> that the characters have to figure out for themselves is that unless
> it's written well, the heroes can easily seem thick-headed. They do
> here. We never get an answer to "you guys couldn't tell me apart
> from a robot?!" and we deserve one.
Maybe they think Buffy's been doing a real good imitation of a robot lately.
The Buffybot should be offended - but, no, she's too nice for that.
> Robo-Buffy's behavior isn't
> just weird, it's very obviously mechanical in a way that the gang
> should have on their minds, having recently dealt with a robot. The
> crew do notice her acting strangely-in-some-way, but it seems to take
> longer that it did in "When She Was Bad." And yet Buffy pegs the
> imposter as a robot seconds after entering. Does not compute. So as
> entertaining as Xander's getting the image of her with Spike,
> "Guy-les," and so on are, they don't go down easy.
From this kind of continuity perspective, the thing I noticed more than the
robot was Xander's blase reaction to Spike showing up in the cemetary to
begin with. Xander's never been a Spike fan, and his attitude towards him
and the flowers for Joyce last episode was decidedly unfriendly. This is
the only glitch of that sort that actually bothers me this episode, because
I think it matters for something that happens later.
I don't care about recognizing that it's a robot though. The setup is made
clear the first time the Buffybot talks to Xander and Anya. And the series
has always been willing to go blind in the service of humor. Just think of
the innumerable times characters have stammered their way through made up
stories without being the slightest bit convincing - yet still getting away
with it. <shrug> It's part of the series, and not important enough to get
in the way of the jokes.
> So, my example of a quote as a microcosm for what bothers me the most
> about this show? "Angel's lame. His hair grows straight up, and
> he's bloody stupid." That's quite a funny line, especially with
> the matter-of-fact delivery.
Yes it is.
> It should also, by all rights, be either
> a dead bloody giveaway or at least a step in the direction of putting
> things together. I don't accept that Willow wouldn't pick up on at
> least some of the significance.
Or it could be just about the single most unexpected thing Buffy could say
and leaves Willow flabbergasted. I mean her head is already spinning about
sex with Spike - lots of times - lots of different ways. And the suggestion
of drawing diagrams...Yeee! How much can poor Willow digest in one
conversation?
Anyway, I think Willow really was starting on the path of figuring stuff out
when they got interrupted by even bigger and more alarming news.
> On an unrelated note, that brings up
> all sorts of other questions (that aren't really especially
> important) about the implication that Spike was the one who made all
> the decisions about which particular "facts" Robo-Buffy would know.
> Why bother to include the drive to Slay and do other non-Spike-focused
> things?
Good lord! What good is a Buffybot that doesn't slay? Spike's no layabout
puffter. He wants to go on the hunt with his hunny and mix the sex in with
a few good stakings. Live (un)life large.
The slaying part is, for me, the absolutely best thing about the Buffybot.
Initiatlly I was a little uncertain. Lines like, "I can't resist the
sinister attraction of your cold and muscular body," are pretty funny. But
it was all still boiling down to just a sexbot, and getting repetitious
mighty fast. But when she put on her jacket (by her own volition) and
announced, "Time to slay," my interest definitely perked up. And then,
"Vampires of the world, beware," spoken as she strides out. Oh, that
Buffybot slayer stride. It's fantastic. To me that was the really defining
character trait of the Buffybot. (SMG does some nice work with the
Buffybot - and in the contrasting scenes with real Buffy.) After that, I
was totally hooked by it.
I also liked how her programming that persistently calls Spike evil
backfires so that she accepts the real Buffy's need to kill him. "You're
right. He's evil. But you should see him naked. I mean really."
> The real Buffy is conveniently absent while her imposter wreaks havoc
> and such. I like the weighty feel to the opening scene, in which
> she's reached the point of dulling her pain by "getting into a
> routine." Buffy trying to make sure everyone knows they're loved
> is a little bit raw and uncomfortable, in a good way. Giles's
> tentative but increasingly persistent attempts to get her back to
> training play well, as does his concerned acceptance of the idea that
> she might want to retire.
There's some nice theme work here, both for the season and the series. The
very first theme of the series was resistance to the slayer calling taking
control of Buffy's life. Now it's being applied in a new way. Being slayer
isn't just interfering with Buffy's freedom, it's getting in the way of real
responsibilities that contend in importance with her calling. The old
deciding factor - how much the innocents in the world need her aid - doesn't
weigh in so strongly when put up against taking care of Dawn. Of course,
the two coincide a lot right now. But it's still a powerful element to add
to the ongoing tension between Buffy's life and her job.
I think it's also very interesting that Buffy's examination of what being
Slayer is doing to her - her fear that it's hardening herself inside - is
first manifested by resisting going back to the training and studies with
Giles. Because it's really the same thing that drove Buffy to start up that
training and studying. You may recall that she was going out every night
then - not patrolling, but rather hunting. Buffy was really struck by
Dracula's description of it - and that he saw something dark in it. Buffy
was feeling it then and needed to understand. Of course that eventually led
to her frantic search into the cause of slayer deaths and Spike's awful
claim that death was her art and that deep inside she sought death herself.
One might conclude that what she learned from those studies was that being a
slayer was sapping her ability to love and that she needed to get away from
it. But Giles gets Buffy to look for answers elsewhere, and so Buffy gets
instead a Spike like message that she's filled with love, but love is pain
and death is her gift. All of these things are linked - from Dracula to the
spirt guide's message. Part of the same exploration into herself.
> That leads into a bit of a mystical quest,
> with the wide pans across the desert and the musical score setting the
> kind of mood we don't often see on the show. With the Hokey Pokey
> thrown in, and seeming even funnier than it would've been otherwise.
Isn't that a stitch? I love how self conscious Giles is jumping out and
into the circle. Another line I like is, "Buffy, please. It takes more than
a week to bleach bones."
> The advice that our hero gets seems to embrace love, which I hadn't
> expected based on "Restless." With a caveat about love leading to
> the Gift Of Death, though. I'm sure it'll at least kinda make
> sense someday. Once the First Slayer started talking, I was afraid the
> show might have gone a little overboard with the mumbo-jumbo factor...
> until Buffy's perfectly timed "what?" Now that's funny.
> Nicely handled mini-plot overall.
It's not really the First Slayer, which is probably why it doesn't match
well with Restless. It's something calling herself the guide using the
First Slayer's form. What exactly the guide is, I don't know. Once could
imagine a number of things.
I do like Buffy's, "What?" quite a bit, as I do her later sneering repeat
of, "Death is my gift", when she meets back up with the Scoobies. Ambiguous
would be a mild description of what was said to Buffy. Not exactly helping
her at the moment. But the words do deserve some thought.
First Slayer: You are full of love. You love with all of your soul. It's
brighter than the fire ... blinding. That's why you pull away from it.
Buffy: I'm full of love? I'm not losing it?
First Slayer: Only if you reject it. Love is pain, and the Slayer forges
strength from pain. Love ... give ... forgive. Risk the pain. It is your
nature. Love will bring you to your gift.
...
First Slayer: Death is your gift.
There are probably more opinions on what that all means than there are
people in this newsgroup, but it still bears thought.
> Glory's torturing Spoik isn't a huge standout sequence for me one
> way or the other, but "good plan, Spike" is nice. And the fight at
> the end has some energy.
I think maybe if you had gotten a little more engaged in Spike's torture
scene, his behavior might not have been as mysterious in the end. Right now
I'll just say that I loved Spike's taunts at Glory.
Glory clearly isn't accustomed to backtalk. ("I command you to shut up!")
A nice little contrasting moment back at the start is when Glory speaks to
her scabby minions saying, "If you love me..." and they look up at her
adoringly in eager anticipation of her command.
The fight at the end had energy in the sense that there were a lot of people
and frantic editing. But I thought the choreography was awful. Everything
seemed way too deliberate. Like I could hear them counting beats in their
head. One, two, three, punch, turn, thrust, seven, eight, fall. Now the
earlier fight in the cemetary with the Buffybot worked nicely for me. It
wasn't so fast moving, but it had the amusing bit of Anya trying to find a
staking position until Xander kicked the vamp into her. And the Buffybot
tossing the stake to Spike for him to strike with a flourish.
> The way this episode plays out raises two major issues with regards to
> Spike. The first is his refusal to betray Dawn to save his own skin.
> The others naturally expect that he can't be trusted to keep his
> mouth shut under such circumstances, and their fear is justified by
> everything except what actually happens in "Intervention." His
> stated reason is all about concern for another, simply not wanting
> Buffy in particular to be in pain. That itself could be traced back to
> selfishness, of course, but what kind of altruism can't? It re-blurs
> the boundaries of what kind of empathy someone without a soul can feel.
> My instinct, and let me emphasize that this is just a first
> impression, is to say that this is "wrong." Doesn't seem to sit
> quite right. But it does get one thinking, and this is something
> I'll have to keep thinking about before making any sweeping
> pronouncements. And watching more show, of course.
A lot of people seem to struggle with this, but it's never seemed that big a
deal to me. What happens this episode is important. Buffy's perceptions
change and it suggests a new version of the Buffy/Spike relationship going
forward. But Spike's decision not to blab to Glory doesn't strike me as
remarkable or something new.
Hitting the fringes first, let me point out that Spike isn't keen on being
pushed around and isn't going to be favorably disposed to cooperating with
Glory just because she's a skanky fashion victim giving him grief. He
doesn't need a special excuse to resist Glory. He flat out doesn't like
her.
He also genuinely enjoys taunting her. Spike doesn't really want to get
beat up like he was, but getting under Glory's skin almost made it
worthwhile. To Spike, he won that encounter.
So it wasn't quite as hard for him to do that or quite as bad an experience
as it might appear. That's probably not enough reason in iteself. The
"altruistic" motive you refer to is, I believe, necessary too. I just
wanted it clear that there were other things pushing him that direction to.
I think it might also be fair to assume that at this point Spike will get
off on being heroic - for any reason. Not so much for the sake of heroism,
but because that's the kind of behavior available to him (now that he can't
ravage humans) that lets him swagger and show what a big bad he really is.
Yes, that's twisted, but that's the kind of weirdness you get from shock
induced behavior modification.
But doing it for Buffy is still the biggest thing. Just not new. He would
have done the same thing any time going back to the end of Fool For Love.
This is just the first time the situation came up. Spike's in love with
Buffy. Not talking to Glory is a natural byproduct of that. I doubt Spike
seriously thought of doing anything else.
Let me pause for a moment to note the ongoing argument about love vs.
obsession and whether vampires can love and so on and so forth. They always
frustrate me. To begin with because I don't think anybody even applies the
same meaning to the words. It seems like most of the time people are
speaking of entirely different concepts. Second because we continually
jumping back and forth between human and vampire ideas of love. It gets -
well - confusing. I call it love here because Spike does. Whatever anybody
else thinks it really is, to Spike it's love. And that means something to
him. Does it mean the same as human love? Of course not. He's a vampire.
But it still means something. It's still a passion to him. It still leads
him to act certain ways. Leading among them is a devotion that doesn't have
room for allowing foes like Glory to destroy his love. This idea isn't even
new to chipped Spike. He gave all of himself to Dru too. It nearly got him
killed in What's My Line.
This has been solidly in place since Fool For Love. Part of what happened
at the end when he put down the gun and consoled Buffy is that he made his
choice. He gave up on trying to be the vampire he used to be and devoted
himself to Buffy. When he's love's bitch, he admits it. And he's stuck to
that persistently since. Astonishingly so. The only notable exception that
I can think of is the incident with Dru. Now Dru was the one vampire with
the power to break through that decision - but only briefly - as Spike quick
enough rejected Dru's appeal and turned it around into his grandest play for
Buffy's affections yet.
The weird thing is that, to Spike, this wasn't that big a deal. Being
nearly killed by Glory was a big deal. But not the part about keeping
Dawn's secret. When Buffy came and kissed him, it stunned Spike. I'm sure
he recognized it as gratitude, but the last thing he expected was gratitude.
This from the guy who looked for gratitude for not feeding off of disaster
victims. He seems as much, if not more stunned by Buffy's remarks on what
is real. What actually matters. This is that important? Offering Dru's
life up to Buffy in the name of love - that's real to Spike. That's *his*
idea of a big deal. Not this. Not his part in it anyway. He just didn't
want to see Buffy cry.
Now mind you, Spike is unlikely to leave here with many great new
understandings. Why exactly does this earn a kiss while not drinking from
disaster victims earns disgust? I doubt Spike could answer that. But he
did learn that he really can matter to Buffy. And I think that must be
motivating.
> The second issue is more about Buffy's behavior than Spike's:
> Besides a good robot imitation and a good plan to find out what she
> needs to know, human-Buffy has a kiss and some gratitude for Spike.
> That I'm not buying, particularly the former. There's the
> still-recent events of "Crush," and then more immediately there's
> the fact that he made a clone of her to have sex with. The latter is
> not something that I would expect Buffy to easily forgive and forget,
> and the former should make her extra cautious about sending anything
> that could be interpreted as mixed signals. Doesn't play well at
> all, especially the kiss. Pretending to play along with this, I wonder
> whether she knew what she was going to say from the beginning - it
> seems more likely that she was playing it by ear and trying to see if
> she could get an explanation for his burst of non-evil.
Hmmm. Ok. Those are good issues, but I think you're running a step behind
Buffy's thoughts.
First of all, to get the context set, she clearly *is* untrusting of Spike
and not at all ready to forgive and forget. On the contrary, she's ready to
kill him. The danger to Dawn that Spike poses finally brought her to that
point. The only reason Spike wasn't dusted immediately is that Buffy needs
to know what Spike actually revealed to Glory. When Xander and Giles come
back from dumping Spike at his crypt, the first thing she asks is whether
they killed him. So whatever changed, happened only after that.
Which starts in the Magic Box - not the crypt.
Xander: God, I feel ... kind of bad for the guy. Gets all whupped and his
best toy gets taken away.
Buffy: Xander. Please don't be suggesting what I'd have to kill you for
suggesting.
Xander: No, no, travesty, completely on board, it's just ... the guy was so
thrashed
Xander is hardly the first guy you would think of to express sympathy for
Spike. (This is why I wasn't keen on his seemingly easy attitude towards
Spike at the beginning. Fortunately that was eased a little by Xander later
laying down the law to Spike and being the one to raise the red flag about
Buffy going crazy.) Indeed, the whole gang had been harsh on Spike since
Crush. Remember Giles giving him his evil eye? But after Xander's brief
false start, he got down to it. The guy was so thrashed. So thrashed that
both Xander and Giles were subdued about his condition.
Buffy knew this. She'd seen Spike. She just hadn't had time to think about
it yet. Nor, probably, that they found Spike trying to escape. Whatever
went on between him and Glory, it clearly wasn't Spike pulling another Adam.
And the guy was so thrashed. That gave Buffy pause. The first seed of
doubt was planted. When Buffy went to Spike with her Buffybot scheme, I
think she probably already suspected that he hadn't been broken. But she
didn't know why, and she needed to confirm it.
Once she's in the crypt she gets to see how badly Spike is hurt again. And
that's the first thing she remarks on. His sexy wounds. Except they surely
looked pretty awful to her. And Spike's weak response demonstrated how
badly off he was. This isn't looking like the betraying scumbag she was
ready to dust not long before. I emphasize this because it's not just
Spike's words to come that impact Buffy, it's the realization of just how
far he would go for that reason. The guy was so thrashed.
Then, of course, Spike tells Buffy why he did it, and now Buffy is thrown
somewhere she never thought to be. That was the last thing she expected to
hear, but it rang true. She knows Spike well enough to see that he's being
honest. When Spike bares his feelings, he doesn't hold back. And for the
first time - in total contradiction to the understanding she thought she had
after Crush - Spike's affection for her isn't disgusting. It's life saving.
It probably bears remembering at this point that Buffy also has a great
weight lifted from her. Glory doesn't know about Dawn. The disaster she
fears hasn't happened. Her sense of relief is immense. Combined with the
revelation of just how much Spike went through for her and how important
that was to her and then you have the moment of the kiss. Which I believe
was an entirely spontaneous expression of gratitude.
What's interesting though, is that it's a kiss. She didn't just say thank
you with enthusiasm. Or hug him. Or cry. Or whatever. She kissed him on
the lips. Though it doesn't seem terribly sexual. One can debate that
forever. But my take is that Buffy knew that's what he would want and
decided right then and there that he had earned it.
Is that believable? Hell, yes. She was blown away by what he had done.
She didn't believe he had that in him. And here he is nearly dying for her
when that's exactly what she needed from him. The gratitude was genuine.
I think that no matter what, the kiss has to be somewhat a mixed message for
Spike though. But not as bad as it would have been had the scene ended
then. Fortunately for Buffy, Spike asked about the Buffybot. That gave
Buffy the chance to lay into Spike for that. And really vent by implication
her upset at all the disgusting things Spike did. I'm not entirely certain
about this - Spike's so beat up that he looks awful in any pose - but to me
it looks like Spike hangs his head in shame then. Even he knows that the
Buffybot is more than Buffy can accept.
Curiously (at least from how it looks to me), Buffy's little rant about the
Buffybot comes across as a scolding. It certainly leads up well to the
closer about what's real. Which also provides some explanation to Spike of
the kiss - hopefully reducing the mixed message aspect. I've mentioned
before how I think there's a parallel between Buffy/Spike and Xander/Anya
specifically in how Buffy has acquired the role of teaching Spike what being
human means. Here for the first time I think Buffy gets an inkling of her
job. She's giving Spike a big honking lesson in that here. Now the
question is will Spike learn it. I can't wait to see.
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Has a good half and a soulless-robot half.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
Also of note is that things are getting really serious with Glory. Her
minions may have made a spectacularly wrong guess with Spike. But it was
still way too close for comfort and now that Glory knows it's a human, and
presumably around Buffy, time has to be running out. Buffy still doesn't
know why Glory wants The Key, what The Key is, or how to fight Glory. Tick
tock.
I get a lot of pleasure out of this episode. Other than the final fight
it's a terrific romp. Even the torture gets filled with some nice put downs
and sets up Buffy pretending to be the Buffybot. And it has the nifty trip
to the spirit guide with her obscure message to worry about. Even so, most
of the scenes really aren't all that important, nor all that extraordinary.
So I leave it as a very high Good not quite able to make it to Excellent.
(I think there are something like six episodes this season ranked right
about there.)
One Bit Shy
One Bit Shy
news:XVgtg.884$BE4...@fe04.lga...
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>> threads.
>>
>>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Five, Episode 18: "Intervention"
>
> /some snippage occurs/
>
>> but first of all, yes, I'm going to complain
>> that Buffy's friends should've figured out what was going on. One
>> of the dangers of handing the audience lots of background knowledge
>> that the characters have to figure out for themselves is that unless
>> it's written well, the heroes can easily seem thick-headed. They do
>> here. We never get an answer to "you guys couldn't tell me apart
>> from a robot?!"
>
> In TYG/WAY? Tara could tell Buffy wasn't Buffy because of her "energy"
> was "fragmented." Did she suddenly lose the ability to see this?
No. There's no fragmented energy. Previously, Buffy's body was essentially
possessed by Faith. It was that mix of two essences that made for the
fragmented energy. Nothing like that is gong on here.
OBS
One Bit Shy
Well, yeah. If he just caved, then I think he'd be toast. But I like to
think that Spike is a little more clever than that. Maybe not a lot. But a
little.
OBS
Apteryx
news:12bab9f...@news.supernews.com...
> "Apteryx" <apt...@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:e92130$fou$1...@emma.aioe.org...
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>
>> In fact I have a problem with the fact that everyone is in a rush to kill
>> him when they know Glory has captured him. It seems to be to either too
>> late, or in too much of a hurry, but I can't find any way to interpret
>> things so its just right. If Buffy and the gang suppose that he will
>> readily betray Dawn, why wasn't he staked as soon as he knew she was the
>> key? But if they have any reason to suppose he is inclined to protect
>> Dawn (like for instance the fact that in Checkpoint Buffy asked him to
>> and he did) they seem to be jumping to conclusions.
>
> Buffy asked Spike to protect Dawn before Crush and the whole Drusilla
> incident. At this point Spike is seriously on the outs with everybody -
> especially now that he's been shown to have gotten a Buffy sexbot built
> for himself. It's highly unlikely that Buffy would take Dawn to Spike
> after that. And I imagine that the Drusilla incident appalled Buffy on
> multiple levels. Aside from being disgusted at Spike's perverse desires
> and ways, she would see Spike's offering of Dru's life to her as evidence
> that he would betray anybody for his self interest. (She also has the
> Yoko Factor and Out Of My Mind experiences to remind her of Spike's
> willingness to betray her and sacrifice others.) So I think she and
> everybody were well primed to assume he'd blab. Buffy was flat out ready
> to stake him this time - finally - because of the freshly perceived risk
> to Dawn.
A valid interpretation, and one which I am open to - but it only leads me to
the other end of the dichotomy, that if Buffy and the gang perceived
obsessed Spike as a threat to Dawn, they are a bit late in deciding to stake
him only when the threat is underlined when Glory kidnaps him. Maybe DPS
(Deeply Stupid Syndrome) has spread from the Sunnydale Police to the rest of
Sunnydale's residents. Gung pbhyq pregnvayl rkcynva gur znaare va juvpu
Tybel riraghnyyl qvfpbiref gung Qnja vf gur xrl. But short of DPS, supposing
that the whole gang believed after Crush that Spike was a threat doesn't
explain why they wait till after Glory has grabbed him to decide to stake
him.
Overall I prefer the other leg of the dichotomy, that their sudden
conversion to the Stake Spike Now movement is leaping to conclusions.
Obviously Buffy wouldn't entrust Dawn to Spike post Crush. But that is
because she doesn't feel confidence in him, and wouldn't want to feel
obligated to him. The fact that Buffy now knows he is obsessed with her
doesn't provide any logical reason why he should now be a threat to Dawn to
whom he has always been protective in the past, while obsessed (at least not
in this way, betraying her to Glory).
--
Apteryx
Apteryx
news:3eadnXGVN9v15yjZ...@rcn.net...
> "Apteryx" <apt...@xtra.co.nz> wrote in
> news:e92130$fou$1...@emma.aioe.org:
>
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1152675260.0...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
>>>review
>>> threads.
>>>
>>>
>
>>
>>> she might want to retire. That leads into a bit of a mystical
>>> quest, with the wide pans across the desert and the musical
>>> score setting the kind of mood we don't often see on the show.
>>> With the Hokey Pokey thrown in, and seeming even funnier than
>>> it would've been otherwise.
>>
>> I loved the line "I know this ritual! The ancient shamans were
>> next called upon to do the hokey-pokey and turn themselves
>> around"
>>
>
> This one is just full of fun little moments. For example...
>
> "Dawn, if there are any plates in your room, let's have them before
> they get furry and we have to name them."
>
> "Oh, I was there, it really wasn't that bad. See, if you were
> really a witch, you could do a spell to escape."
And the follow up, "so really it was only bad for the falsely accused, and,
well, they never have a good time"
--
Apteryx
Sam
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
> Spike. The first is his refusal to betray Dawn to save his own skin.
> mouth shut under such circumstances, and their fear is justified by
> everything except what actually happens in "Intervention." His
> stated reason is all about concern for another, simply not wanting
> Buffy in particular to be in pain. That itself could be traced back to
> selfishness, of course, but what kind of altruism can't? It re-blurs
> the boundaries of what kind of empathy someone without a soul can feel.
> My instinct, and let me emphasize that this is just a first
> impression, is to say that this is "wrong." Doesn't seem to sit
> quite right. But it does get one thinking, and this is something
> I'll have to keep thinking about before making any sweeping
> pronouncements. And watching more show, of course.
Vampires are capable of self-sacrifice. On a less extreme level, think
back to "Lie to Me" -- Spike gave up on something he wanted very much
purely out of concern for Drusilla. On a more intriguing level,
remember the Three from waaaay back in season one? Vampire warriors
fanatically devoted to the Master?
They gave up their lives because they displeased him, without
hesitation.
Vampires are capable of self-sacrifice. They're capable of affection
and devotion and loyalty and love. They're just not capable of
morality, which none of those things really require.
Spike protected Dawn because he's in love with Buffy. But he didn't do
it because, y'know, Glory murdering a 15 year old girl would be wrong.
If the Key was actually Susie from down the road, Spike would have
given her up without a second thought. That's where the soul really
comes into play.
--Sam
Arbitrar Of Quality
> In article <1152675260.0...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Even if one ignores the whole gay/bi insanity, "gay (1999-present)"
> > is wrong. Willow stopped driving stick in 2000. Anyone know if that
> > was an intentional mistake (i.e. Spike being wrong rather than the
> > episode being wrong)?
>
> It was still 1999 when she met Tara. (December, but still 1999.) Maybe
> Spike used that as the start of her gayness.
Spike didn't meet Tara until well into 2000, though, and I doubt he'd
care enough to find out when she and Willow first met.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Why? Buffy's friends have never seen Buffy go through losing a parent
> before so how would they know how she would act?
Maybe she'd act throughly mechanical in both mannerisms and inflections
and repeatedly state the obvious, in a manner pretty thoroughly unlike
anything we've seen from her in the last few episodes (or ever)?
> Why would Spike want a Buffybot to be as close to the real Buffy that he
> could possibly get but with the added bonus of her loving him and
> catering to his whims? Because he wants the real Buffy. He doesn't want
> just a sextoy, he wants the bot to BE Buffy. He even adamantly tells the
> bot to "just be Buffy".
Yeah, that wasn't my most insightful of musings.
> I love the way they wrote Spike in this episode because it does raise
> questions and yes, it should be wrong. Why did he do it? Why would he
> risk his life for Dawn's? One could argue that he did it so Buffy
> wouldn't stake him (but if he got killed doing it what is the point?) or
> did he do it purely because of his feelings for Buffy (and
> subsequently, her sister)?
>
> Points to ponder.
Well, the show explains it as being about caring for Buffy, and I
initially didn't question that. But there actually are some other
explanations. A few are trying to push it as a pragmatic choic, and
while it's true that if all Spike's interested in is staying alive,
there are ways to do that that don't involve getting tortured to death,
letting Glory win can't be a good thing, Long-term planning isn't his
forte, but I'm reminded of his helping Buffy in Bec2 in a similarly
good-of-the-world situation. Then consider how much he has fighting
demons in S4 and how intolerant he can be of other would-be big bads.
And then there's that fervent hope that he can somehow et into Buffys
ants, of course. Those cloud the situation enough that I think i can
accept this act of seeming selflessness.
But Buffy's part of that mix too. Maybe I sould dig up OBS's
200,000-word post on his partial but not total compassion at the end of
FFL.
> > The second issue is more about Buffy's behavior than Spike's:
> > Besides a good robot imitation and a good plan to find out what she
> > needs to know, human-Buffy has a kiss and some gratitude for Spike.
> > That I'm not buying, particularly the former. There's the
> > still-recent events of "Crush," and then more immediately there's
> > the fact that he made a clone of her to have sex with. The latter is
> > not something that I would expect Buffy to easily forgive and forget,
> > and the former should make her extra cautious about sending anything
> > that could be interpreted as mixed signals. Doesn't play well at
> > all, especially the kiss. Pretending to play along with this, I wonder
> > whether she knew what she was going to say from the beginning - it
> > seems more likely that she was playing it by ear and trying to see if
> > she could get an explanation for his burst of non-evil.
>
> I think in all honesty, he surprised the hell out of her. She went in
> expecting to hear that he'd sold them out and instead, he tells her that
> he'd die for her and almost had. I think at that moment she gave him a
> simple thank you. It wasn't a kiss that was meant to lead him on, it was
> a kiss that said "thank you for risking your life to protect us".
When has Buffy *ever* impulsively kissed someone like that before? I'm
aware of the way Hollywood has chicks do that sometimes, but it only
makes sense for a character wo's physically friendly, whereas it seems
only people who've been her close friends for years even get a hug
under those circumstances. I could maybe see, say, Cordelia kissing
Spike in that stituation, but not Buffy. Add to the fact that this guy
in particular is someone that Buffy classfies on the "sexual predator"
side of her thinking, and the idea that she might have in any way led
him on is enough to get her horrified and mopey.
> Also, as she was leaving, she pretty much tells him what she views as
> right and wrong. The bot? Not real, and her thoughts on it. Protecting
> her sister? that was real.
>
> I think Spike learns a lesson here.
Because setting boundaries with Spike has always worked so well
before...
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> And nobody thought that Bursting Into
> Tears Buffy from Triangle was unreal.
I did.
-AOQ
~maybe it's the same creature that was impersonating Cordelia in part
of "The Wish" and Willow in part of "Pangs"~
Rowan Hawthorn
Residual venom from the Bezoar?
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Arbitrar Of Quality
> None of the behaviors that Buffy's friends
> actually witnessed struck me as unambiguously robotic. And remember,
> Buffy was the only one who really had any serious interaction with April.
> The others just saw her for a few minutes and got asked if they knew where
> Warren was.
And based on those few minutes:
BUFFY: So, what do you guys think she is? I mean, this may sound nuts,
but I kinda got the impression that she was a-
TARA: Robot.
Everyone nods in complete agreement.
XANDER: Oh yeah, robot.
BUFFY: Yeah, I was gonna say robot.
So it makes sense that Buffy is the only one who spots a
> robot at first glance. This part only required a *small* suspension of
> disbelief from me.
If i think that it would've been obvious to me even without the
background information that the others don't have, and they remain so
clueless, I pretty much give up on trying to suspend disbelief.
> To any sane character on the show, the very idea of Buffy-Spike love
> and/or boinkage is clearly out of the question. (Even if he *does* have
> chiseled cheekbones and an alpha male attitude and a cool leather coat.)
> And it's *only* because the episode has made this very clear that the
> final scene can even come close to working. If all these earlier scenes
> hadn't ballasted the final one, I would have been on my feet shrieking
> "BULLSHIT!" when Buffy kissed Spike. But as it is, I can sort of buy it.
> Or at least tolerate it.
Lucky you. For me, it may make it more unbelievable. It's on the
level of the kiss that had me yelling 'bullshit" in OOMM. The one that
never actually happened, unlike this.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> And the series
> has always been willing to go blind in the service of humor.
True. I've never quite been willing to go blind to that particular
flaw, no matter how pervasive it is.
> Just think of
> the innumerable times characters have stammered their way through made up
> stories without being the slightest bit convincing - yet still getting away
> with it.
Let's not.
> > That leads into a bit of a mystical quest,
> > with the wide pans across the desert and the musical score setting the
> > kind of mood we don't often see on the show. With the Hokey Pokey
> > thrown in, and seeming even funnier than it would've been otherwise.
>
> Isn't that a stitch? I love how self conscious Giles is jumping out and
> into the circle.
Yeah, eveyone has a favorite particular bit of that joke, ebcause the
whole thing works so well. Head seems to so effortlessly pull off the
compound moods. Part of it's the scripting, of course, but the actor
never comes across as just "annoyed" when the scene calls for "slightly
annoyed while understanding {and accustomed to} another's need to
wisecrack, and kinda realizing how funny it is without wanting to admit
it."
> The weird thing is that, to Spike, this wasn't that big a deal. Being
> nearly killed by Glory was a big deal. But not the part about keeping
> Dawn's secret. When Buffy came and kissed him, it stunned Spike. I'm sure
> he recognized it as gratitude, but the last thing he expected was gratitude.
> This from the guy who looked for gratitude for not feeding off of disaster
> victims. He seems as much, if not more stunned by Buffy's remarks on what
> is real. What actually matters. This is that important? Offering Dru's
> life up to Buffy in the name of love - that's real to Spike. That's *his*
> idea of a big deal. Not this. Not his part in it anyway. He just didn't
> want to see Buffy cry.
>
> Now mind you, Spike is unlikely to leave here with many great new
> understandings. Why exactly does this earn a kiss while not drinking from
> disaster victims earns disgust? I doubt Spike could answer that. But he
> did learn that he really can matter to Buffy. And I think that must be
> motivating.
Good thoughts there. You may have to keep periodically reminding
everyone the certain blind spots that Spike has in his understanding of
the human experience... not that you were waiting for an invitation or
anything.
> It probably bears remembering at this point that Buffy also has a great
> weight lifted from her. Glory doesn't know about Dawn. The disaster she
> fears hasn't happened. Her sense of relief is immense. Combined with the
> revelation of just how much Spike went through for her and how important
> that was to her and then you have the moment of the kiss. Which I believe
> was an entirely spontaneous expression of gratitude.
Talked about this elsewhere, but Buffy's not a spontaneous kisser, so
it seems contrived for her to suddently become one.
> What's interesting though, is that it's a kiss. She didn't just say thank
> you with enthusiasm. Or hug him. Or cry. Or whatever. She kissed him on
> the lips. Though it doesn't seem terribly sexual. One can debate that
> forever. But my take is that Buffy knew that's what he would want and
> decided right then and there that he had earned it.
>
> Is that believable?
No.
> Hell, yes.
Ah, those rhetorical questions. Well, YMMV. I've seen Buffy come to
count Spike as an ally and develop some measure of trust for him
without it opening her mind to an kind of tolerance of his obsession
with her.
> I think that no matter what, the kiss has to be somewhat a mixed message for
> Spike though. But not as bad as it would have been had the scene ended
> then. Fortunately for Buffy, Spike asked about the Buffybot. That gave
> Buffy the chance to lay into Spike for that. And really vent by implication
> her upset at all the disgusting things Spike did.
With all the talk about everyone defining terms differently, your
definitions of "lay into" and "really vent" are very different from
mine.
-AOQ
lili...@gmail.com
Arbitrar Of Quality schreef:
He wouldn't have to care, he just hangs out around the scoobies enough
to hear things.
That and Willow is Buffy's best friend. Thus things in her life affect
Buffy, thus they interest Spike.
Kinda like how a guy would watch a chickflick to keep his girlfriend
happy. Spike would learn to know things about Buffy's friends to keep
her happy.
Lore
drifter
The assumption here (that is to say, MY assumption) is that the
energy given off by a living human being would be different than
the energy being given off by a flashlight battery, or whatever it
was that Warren used to power his toys. Tara seems to have lost
the ability to see this. I would think that Tara would be able to
recognize the energies of people she sees every day.
However, I'm not a Wiccan, and I don't even play one on TV.
vague disclaimer
Maybe he just took a guess from memory.
Or maybe it was the Monk's Spell(tm)!
3D Master
> 3D Master wrote:
>> Elisi wrote:
>>
>>> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>>
>> >
>>
>>>> stated reason is all about concern for another, simply not wanting
>>>> Buffy in particular to be in pain. That itself could be traced back to
>>>> selfishness, of course, but what kind of altruism can't? It re-blurs
>>>> the boundaries of what kind of empathy someone without a soul can feel.
>>>> My instinct, and let me emphasize that this is just a first
>>>> impression, is to say that this is "wrong." Doesn't seem to sit
>>>> quite right. But it does get one thinking, and this is something
>>>> I'll have to keep thinking about before making any sweeping
>>>> pronouncements. And watching more show, of course.
>>>
>>>
>>> people haven't mentioned before. I said about Harmony that she might
>>> still have betrayed them whilst human. I think who Spike once was,
>>> plays into this. From what we've seen he was a hopeless romantic -
>>> caught up in a world of beauty. And at that point he might have been
>>> casting himself in the role of brave, loyal knight, withstanding
>>> torture for the sake of his beloved, even if she'd never know - a tale
>>> of tragedy and loss and unsung heroes...
>>>
>>> I don't know, but I thought maybe that'd work for you?
>>
>>
>> Nah, he's just making sure he lives. Besides, getting tortured also
>> gives him pleasure; it's the way he's planning on getting Dru back.
>
>
>
>
>
> when? And he very obviously wasn't experiencing pleasure.
He was planning on torturing Dru. Vampires like that sort of thing.
:rolleyes:
3D Master
--
~~~~~
"I've got something to say; it's better to burn out than to fade away!"
- The Kurgan, Highlander
"Give me some sugar, baby!"
- Ashley J. 'Ash' Williams, Army of Darkness
~~~~~
Author of several stories, which can be found here:
http://members.chello.nl/~jg.temolder1/
3D Master
> 3D Master wrote:
>> Nah, he's just making sure he lives. Besides, getting tortured also
>> gives him pleasure;
>
> he didn't tell - he wanted to be tortured some more!
>
>> it's the way he's planning on getting Dru back.
>
> off on being tortured (except the crazy one in'Helpless'). Violence and
> fighting - yes. Torture - no.
>
> He
>> isn't in half as bad a place as a human would be.
>
>
>> Except of course he didn't. He endured it to make sure he wasn't killed.
>> The moment he tells Glory about the key, he's dust. And it isn't love;
>> vampires can't love. He's obsessing; he's stalked her, he's stolen her
>> underwear and clothing, he's attempted to have her killed, now he's
>> built a robot copy. He's not in love, he's obsessed.
>
> Whatever. He's experiencing an emotion that he calls love. And it has
> enough in common with what we call love to be recognised as similar in
> nature, if twisted.
Not by me, and any sane person. Stalking, stealing underwear,
kidnapping, attempt to have his ex kill her, and creating a robot fuck
toy version of her, is not love, doesn't even come close.
> Remember 'Lovers Walk' and Spike's speech about
> love that he gave Buffy and Angel. Neither of them told him that he was
> wrong, because he was a soulless vampire that couldn't possibly know
> what love was about. Not even Angel who should know! Instead they both
> seemed to take it to heart, and Buffy even broke up with Angel as a
> direct result.
>
> (And btw I don't think Spike is suddenly a good guy and that he never
> did anything nasty or that he's just misunderstood. But I *do* think
> that there's more to him than just straightforward EVIL!)
So do I, there's insidious evil, sickening evil, obsessed with girls
evil, and then there's the rest. He's however not in love.
3D Master
> Elisi wrote:
>
> (of Spike)
>
>> I *do* think
>> that there's more to him than just straightforward EVIL!)
>
> intriguing, perhaps even admirable characteristics and still be evil,
> which is how I would have defined him up to this point (he's a clever,
> witty, brave, devoted, cool, sarcastic mass murderer). But in this
> episode he really begins to change (I mean change internally - the chip
> modified his behaviour, creating external change, but falling in love
> with Buffy - or getting obsessed with her, I'm not too fussed by the
> terms at this stage in his development - has kick started a process of
> internal change, where he *wants* to be different). He's still evil,
> but he has a reason to want not to be and to try to act differently.
>
> And for what it's worth, I don't think you have to be good in order to
> want to be good. I don't think goodness is an inherent quality, any
> more than evilness is. It all comes down to what you do, not what you
> are. Spike is at a disadvantage because he doesn't actually know why
> certain kinds of actions qualify as "good", but that doesn't prevent
> him from deciding that he wants to know and he wants to change. Whether
> this decision is the result of "loving" Buffy or being "obsessed" with
> her doesn't seem important to me - what matters is that he makes it,
> and he acts on it. (I side with the "Spike kept his mouth shut for
> Buffy's sake" people here, because I think it makes for a much more
> interesting story if that's his motivation than if he was just hoping
> to buy time in order to try to escape. And since this is a work of
> fiction we're dealing with, I don't really see the point in opting for
> the less interesting interpretation - it's not as if there were some
> "truth" or "reality" behind the story, so why not go with the better
> story?)
The so-called "less interesting" story is far more interesting to me,
and actually on screen. With his senses, there's no way that Spike
doesn't know it's the Buffy and not the Buffybot. Yet, he acts like he
doesn't, and gets a kiss out of it. His manipulations are starting to
pay off; the only uninteresting thing is; why the hell was he left alive
along enough for it to get to pay off!?
3D Master
> Elisi <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> built a robot copy. He's not in love, he's obsessed.
>> Whatever. He's experiencing an emotion that he calls love. And it has
>> enough in common with what we call love to be recognised as similar in
>> nature, if twisted.
>
> love?" debate. At least some vampires can feel love, but it isn't exactly
> the same as what we humans call love.
>
> (As far as love vs. obsession goes, I think Spike is experiencing *both*
> here.)
No he's not, vampires can't love.
3D Master
> Rowan Hawthorn wrote:
>> chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
>
>>> Except Spike also failed to realize that April was a robot. The only
>>> explanation is that Warren's robots are lifelike enough to have human
>>> scent, hide the sound of motors and pumps, etc.
>> Of course, where *this* episode is concerned, Spike has just had the
>> living crap beat out of him and his whole face is bruised and swollen,
>> which indicates that his enhanced vampire physiology works *similar* to
>> a human's in *some* respects, anyway. I'd strongly suspect that - just
>> like *people* who get their face beat to hamburger - his enhanced
>> vampire senses aren't exactly firing on all cylinders at the moment.
>
> I got *thisclose* to pointing those things out, but you beat me! There
> is of course also the tiny matter of what the writer thought. From the
> shooting script:
>
> SPIKE
> Buffy - the other... the not-as-pleasant
> Buffy. Something happened to Dawn
> it'd destroy her. I couldn't live, her
> being in that much pain. I'd let Glory
> kill me first. Nearly bloody did.
>
> She thinks about that. Then she leans in and kisses him on the mouth,
> gently and sweetly. After a moment, he pulls back, startled. There is a
> long beat as Spike realizes the several ramifications of what has
> happened. Finally he asks...
:rolleyes: A vampire's senses are so accute that he can track someone by
their sent across town. A vampire's senses are so accute, they can smell
someone else on someone if they've been in close proximity. Even not
firing on all thrusters, up close and personal, he still would know it.
alphakitten
Exactly. Not vice versa.
Vampires like that sort of thing.
> :rolleyes:
>
Cause he was so into it, clearly.
~Angel
maxims
3D Master wrote:
> With his senses, there's no way that Spike
> doesn't know it's the Buffy and not the Buffybot.
But robots in Buffy's world clearly aren't the same as robots in our
world - for a start they *feel* different from our robots, otherwise
Spike would have spent less time having sex with his and more time
playing checkers, and Joyce would have figured out that Ted was a fake
the first time he held her hand. So either we just accept that
Buffyverse robots are extraordinarily physically convincing simulacrae
of human beings, right down to the sense of smell (the software
simulating cognition appears to be a little harder to get right)
without demanding a detailed logical explanation or we say that magic
must be involved in some way. Either way, there is no a priori reason
to suppose that smell is excluded from the simulation of the human body
- after all, as someone has already pointed out, Spike didn't realise
April was a robot either, even after she'd picked him up and thrown him
through a window. There is nothing in the show that suggests the bots
didn't smell right as well as feeling right.
If the only argument for Spike being able to distinguish the bot from
Buffy is that he could smell it, then the fact that there's no evidence
that he *can* smell it completely destroys the argument. Can anyone
point to any other evidence that Spike could distinguish bots from
people?
maxims
Stephen Tempest
>:rolleyes: A vampire's senses are so accute that he can track someone by
>their sent across town. A vampire's senses are so accute, they can smell
>someone else on someone if they've been in close proximity. Even not
>firing on all thrusters, up close and personal, he still would know it.
Spike wanted Warren to make the Buffybot as perfect a copy of Buffy as
he could manage. That means perfect enough to fool his own vampire
senses - otherwise why bother?
Stephen
Stephen Tempest
>BUFFY: So, what do you guys think she is? I mean, this may sound nuts,
>but I kinda got the impression that she was a-
>TARA: Robot.
>Everyone nods in complete agreement.
>XANDER: Oh yeah, robot.
>BUFFY: Yeah, I was gonna say robot.
>
>So it makes sense that Buffy is the only one who spots a
>> robot at first glance. This part only required a *small* suspension of
>> disbelief from me.
>
>If i think that it would've been obvious to me even without the
>background information that the others don't have, and they remain so
>clueless, I pretty much give up on trying to suspend disbelief.
April clearly wasn't human (throwing Spike through a window was proof
of that). The Scoobies were trying to work out what she *was*, and
quickly came to the conclusion "robot."
Buffy, on the other hand, is obviously human. They've known her for
years. She's their friend. And if she starts acting in a bizarre
fashion, of course they're going to be confused and worried - but are
they seriously going to think she's been replaced by a robot double?
Is that the normal conclusion you jump to whenever one of your friends
acts strangely?
>Lucky you. For me, it may make it more unbelievable. It's on the
>level of the kiss that had me yelling 'bullshit" in OOMM. The one that
>never actually happened, unlike this.
Perhaps it's more evidence that Buffy's own subconscious feelings
about Spike are more conflicted than her conscious mind believes?
<g>
Stephen
Elisi
> >Lucky you. For me, it may make it more unbelievable. It's on the
> >level of the kiss that had me yelling 'bullshit" in OOMM. The one that
> >never actually happened, unlike this.
>
> Perhaps it's more evidence that Buffy's own subconscious feelings
> about Spike are more conflicted than her conscious mind believes?
> <g>
I was just about to write something similar! I don't think it is at all
unlikely that Buffy is attracted to Spike - he is a *very* handsome
creature. Even Xander can see this ("compact and well-musced"). And she
did spend a whole day kissing him, when they were under Willow's spell
in 'Something Blue' (not to mention the UST that's been there for years
and years).
To use a very different example: Giles is a very good looking guy. This
gets pointed out fairly often, and in 'Where The Wild Things Are' the
girls go all weak at the knees when they hear him sing. Still, Buffy
would consider any romantic connotations 'ooky', and rightly so.
So it is perfectly possible for Buffy to be (sub-consciously) attracted
to Spike, and yet consider his feelings towards her creepy.
So the kiss rings true to me. :)
Elisi
> The assumption here (that is to say, MY assumption) is that the
> energy given off by a living human being would be different than
> the energy being given off by a flashlight battery, or whatever it
> was that Warren used to power his toys. Tara seems to have lost
> the ability to see this. I would think that Tara would be able to
> recognize the energies of people she sees every day.
>
> However, I'm not a Wiccan, and I don't even play one on TV.
Well Tara spends a good while talking directly with Faith-in-Buffy's
body. In 'Intervention' she spends maybe 2 minutes in the company of
BuffyBot: Xander comes in, waking everyone. Willow and the Bot come in
from the balcony. Xander explains about Spikebeing kidnapped and they
all rush out the door, leaving Tara to watch Dawn, BuffyBot having
exactly 3 lines. That's not a lot to go on, when you've just been woken
and there's a major crisis.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
>> None of the behaviors that Buffy's friends
>> actually witnessed struck me as unambiguously robotic. And remember,
>> Buffy was the only one who really had any serious interaction with April.
>> The others just saw her for a few minutes and got asked if they knew where
>> Warren was.
>
> And based on those few minutes:
>
> BUFFY: So, what do you guys think she is? I mean, this may sound nuts,
> but I kinda got the impression that she was a-
> TARA: Robot.
> Everyone nods in complete agreement.
> XANDER: Oh yeah, robot.
> BUFFY: Yeah, I was gonna say robot.
Ah, but that was only after they saw April throw Spike through a window
(which was really good). I'm not at all sure they would have made the
connection if that hadn't happened. When they first saw her, they all
seemed to assume April was just a slightly odd and Warren-obsessed woman.
>> To any sane character on the show, the very idea of Buffy-Spike love
>> and/or boinkage is clearly out of the question. (Even if he *does* have
>> chiseled cheekbones and an alpha male attitude and a cool leather coat.)
>> And it's *only* because the episode has made this very clear that the
>> final scene can even come close to working. If all these earlier scenes
>> hadn't ballasted the final one, I would have been on my feet shrieking
>> "BULLSHIT!" when Buffy kissed Spike. But as it is, I can sort of buy it.
>> Or at least tolerate it.
>
> Lucky you. For me, it may make it more unbelievable. It's on the
> level of the kiss that had me yelling 'bullshit" in OOMM. The one that
> never actually happened, unlike this.
Don't let me give you the wrong idea. I'm not saying the kiss was
entirely believable. But if we had just seen that kiss in isolation,
without anything to counter it, we'd have to think this was the start of a
Buffy-Spike romance. It would have seemed like Intervention was coming
down firmly in the Buffy-luvs-Sike-4eva camp. That's what would have
really made me scream bullshit. For me the early scenes emphasizing how
WRONG a Buffy-Spike love would be served to balance out the final kiss.
They show us that none of the arguments against Buffy-Spike have been
forgotten. The end result was to keep the Buffy-Spike relationship weird
and complicated, as it should be, and not give us any simple answer as to
where it's going or whether Buffy could ever love him.
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
>
> :rolleyes: A vampire's senses are so accute that he can track someone by
> their sent across town. A vampire's senses are so accute, they can smell
> someone else on someone if they've been in close proximity. Even not
> firing on all thrusters, up close and personal, he still would know it.
Then you're still left with the problem of why Spike didn't realize April
was a robot.
Arbitrar Of Quality
Ah, okay. Being more tolerant because it's only one scene that seems
wrong, not something that by itself will necessarily sabotage the whole
ongoing story.
-AOQ
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
>>
>> THAT, I think, is the right answer to the whole sterile "can vampires
>> love?" debate. At least some vampires can feel love, but it isn't exactly
>> the same as what we humans call love.
>>
>> (As far as love vs. obsession goes, I think Spike is experiencing *both*
>> here.)
> No he's not, vampires can't love.
Vampires can't feel human-style love, but they can feel vampire-style
love. And I'm not going to get into an endless cycle of
yes-it-is-no-it-isn't with you, so I'm letting this drop here.
Stephen Tempest
>Well Tara spends a good while talking directly with Faith-in-Buffy's
>body. In 'Intervention' she spends maybe 2 minutes in the company of
>BuffyBot:
Also consider the circumstances. In 'Who Are You?', Tara has never
met Buffy before - but she's heard Willow talking about her a lot and
building her up into something special. So naturally she's going to
be paying a lot of attention to her.
In 'Intervention', Tara has known Buffy for over a year. To an
extent, she probably takes her for granted now. (The equivalent of
not noticing someone's new hairdo until they point it out to you...)
In fact, Tara might even consider it rude to stare at someone's aura
without good reason.
Especially since she'd recently told off Willow for looking at other
girls, so it would be hypocritical to do the same herself...
Stephen
Rowan Hawthorn
> 3D Master wrote:
>
>> With his senses, there's no way that Spike
>> doesn't know it's the Buffy and not the Buffybot.
>
>
> But robots in Buffy's world clearly aren't the same as robots in our
> world - for a start they *feel* different from our robots,
Have you seen the "RealDoll"? Maybe Warren was doing some work on the
side, after all...
Rowan Hawthorn
> 3D Master <3d.m...@chello.nl> writes:
>
>> :rolleyes: A vampire's senses are so accute that he can track someone by
>> their sent across town. A vampire's senses are so accute, they can smell
>> someone else on someone if they've been in close proximity. Even not
>> firing on all thrusters, up close and personal, he still would know it.
Right. And you've done *how many* experiments on real-live Buffyverse
vampires in order to have your doctorate on their physiology? Can you
point to clinical studies showing just how many PPM of a particular
scent source that a vampire is able to detect *before* and *after*
having their nasal regions pounded to a pulp? Anyone who's actually
taken a hard hit to the nose can tell you that about the only thing you
can smell for a while afterwards is the inside of your face as it swells
shut. This reminds me once more why responding to any of your posts is
a total waste of time.
lili...@gmail.com
There's torturing and there's torturing.
Beating someone with a whip, flogger, ... by your boy/girl friend(s):
fun
Getting your skin pealed off like an apple by someone you can't stand:
not fun.
Lore
peachy ashie passion
> Don Sample wrote:
>
>>In article <1152675260.0...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Even if one ignores the whole gay/bi insanity, "gay (1999-present)"
>>>is wrong. Willow stopped driving stick in 2000. Anyone know if that
>>>was an intentional mistake (i.e. Spike being wrong rather than the
>>>episode being wrong)?
>>
>>It was still 1999 when she met Tara. (December, but still 1999.) Maybe
>>Spike used that as the start of her gayness.
>
>
> Spike didn't meet Tara until well into 2000, though, and I doubt he'd
> care enough to find out when she and Willow first met.
>
> -AOQ
>
Yeah, but then we end up complaining that the Buffybot's programming
was accurate.
That seems SO unlike us.
peachy ashie passion
er, no. DRU likes that sort of thing.
3D, I'm going to ask you for a favor. I know it's a favor, and so
certainly you don't have to comply.
I really am not understanding your position on the whole "vampires
can't love" thing.
I'm pretty sure you've explained in bits and pieces, but I just..
don't get it.
Would you explain? And to avoid the whole frustration, we can take
it to email? My address above is accurate.
peach
One Bit Shy
news:1152767316.6...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> But Buffy's part of that mix too. Maybe I sould dig up OBS's
> 200,000-word post on his partial but not total compassion at the end of
> FFL.
Hey, it could have been worse. I was actually thinking of doing a shipper
recap this episode to explore how much of this is Spuffy pandering vs. real
story development. But I decided to spare you. <eg> (Either that or it
was getting late and I had to go to bed.)
Anyway, I know I've been running on, and I keep telling myself that there
isn't going to be much to say next episode, but then I find myself really
engaged in something and can't help myself. <sigh>
> When has Buffy *ever* impulsively kissed someone like that before?
I don't believe she has. She's actually a bit physically distant. That's
why I think her choice of kissing has to be based on knowing what Spike
would want. Then the question is whether, to Buffy, Spike had truly earned
it. Enough to overcome (at least mommentarily) the reasons against it. I
think he has.
Or to look at it in reverse. The fact that she did it even though it
wouldn't normally be her natural reaction, itself demonstrates how powerful
an impact Spike's deeds and motives had upon Buffy.
OBS
Elisi
> First of all, to get the context set, she clearly *is* untrusting of Spike
> and not at all ready to forgive and forget. On the contrary, she's ready to
> kill him. The danger to Dawn that Spike poses finally brought her to that
> point. The only reason Spike wasn't dusted immediately is that Buffy needs
> to know what Spike actually revealed to Glory. When Xander and Giles come
> back from dumping Spike at his crypt, the first thing she asks is whether
> they killed him. So whatever changed, happened only after that.
>
> Which starts in the Magic Box - not the crypt.
>
> Xander: God, I feel ... kind of bad for the guy. Gets all whupped and his
> best toy gets taken away.
> Buffy: Xander. Please don't be suggesting what I'd have to kill you for
> suggesting.
> Xander: No, no, travesty, completely on board, it's just ... the guy was so
> thrashed
>
> Xander is hardly the first guy you would think of to express sympathy for
> Spike. (This is why I wasn't keen on his seemingly easy attitude towards
> Spike at the beginning. Fortunately that was eased a little by Xander later
> laying down the law to Spike and being the one to raise the red flag about
> Buffy going crazy.) Indeed, the whole gang had been harsh on Spike since
> Crush. Remember Giles giving him his evil eye? But after Xander's brief
> false start, he got down to it. The guy was so thrashed. So thrashed that
> both Xander and Giles were subdued about his condition.
>
> Buffy knew this. She'd seen Spike. She just hadn't had time to think about
> it yet. Nor, probably, that they found Spike trying to escape. Whatever
> went on between him and Glory, it clearly wasn't Spike pulling another Adam.
> And the guy was so thrashed. That gave Buffy pause. The first seed of
> doubt was planted. When Buffy went to Spike with her Buffybot scheme, I
> think she probably already suspected that he hadn't been broken. But she
> didn't know why, and she needed to confirm it.
>
> Once she's in the crypt she gets to see how badly Spike is hurt again. And
> that's the first thing she remarks on. His sexy wounds. Except they surely
> looked pretty awful to her. And Spike's weak response demonstrated how
> badly off he was. This isn't looking like the betraying scumbag she was
> ready to dust not long before. I emphasize this because it's not just
> Spike's words to come that impact Buffy, it's the realization of just how
> far he would go for that reason. The guy was so thrashed.
>
> Then, of course, Spike tells Buffy why he did it, and now Buffy is thrown
> somewhere she never thought to be. That was the last thing she expected to
> hear, but it rang true. She knows Spike well enough to see that he's being
> honest. When Spike bares his feelings, he doesn't hold back. And for the
> first time - in total contradiction to the understanding she thought she had
> after Crush - Spike's affection for her isn't disgusting. It's life saving.
>
> It probably bears remembering at this point that Buffy also has a great
> weight lifted from her. Glory doesn't know about Dawn. The disaster she
> fears hasn't happened. Her sense of relief is immense. Combined with the
> revelation of just how much Spike went through for her and how important
> that was to her and then you have the moment of the kiss. Which I believe
> was an entirely spontaneous expression of gratitude.
>
> What's interesting though, is that it's a kiss. She didn't just say thank
> you with enthusiasm. Or hug him. Or cry. Or whatever. She kissed him on
> the lips. Though it doesn't seem terribly sexual. One can debate that
> forever. But my take is that Buffy knew that's what he would want and
> decided right then and there that he had earned it.
>
> Is that believable? Hell, yes. She was blown away by what he had done.
> She didn't believe he had that in him. And here he is nearly dying for her
> when that's exactly what she needed from him. The gratitude was genuine.
>
> I think that no matter what, the kiss has to be somewhat a mixed message for
> Spike though. But not as bad as it would have been had the scene ended
> then. Fortunately for Buffy, Spike asked about the Buffybot. That gave
> Buffy the chance to lay into Spike for that. And really vent by implication
> her upset at all the disgusting things Spike did. I'm not entirely certain
> about this - Spike's so beat up that he looks awful in any pose - but to me
> it looks like Spike hangs his head in shame then. Even he knows that the
> Buffybot is more than Buffy can accept.
>
> Curiously (at least from how it looks to me), Buffy's little rant about the
> Buffybot comes across as a scolding. It certainly leads up well to the
> closer about what's real. Which also provides some explanation to Spike of
> the kiss - hopefully reducing the mixed message aspect. I've mentioned
> before how I think there's a parallel between Buffy/Spike and Xander/Anya
> specifically in how Buffy has acquired the role of teaching Spike what being
> human means. Here for the first time I think Buffy gets an inkling of her
> job. She's giving Spike a big honking lesson in that here. Now the
> question is will Spike learn it. I can't wait to see.
>
>
> > So...
> >
> > One-sentence summary: Has a good half and a soulless-robot half.
> >
> > AOQ rating: Decent
>
> Also of note is that things are getting really serious with Glory. Her
> minions may have made a spectacularly wrong guess with Spike. But it was
> still way too close for comfort and now that Glory knows it's a human, and
> presumably around Buffy, time has to be running out. Buffy still doesn't
> know why Glory wants The Key, what The Key is, or how to fight Glory. Tick
> tock.
>
> I get a lot of pleasure out of this episode. Other than the final fight
> it's a terrific romp. Even the torture gets filled with some nice put downs
> and sets up Buffy pretending to be the Buffybot. And it has the nifty trip
> to the spirit guide with her obscure message to worry about. Even so, most
> of the scenes really aren't all that important, nor all that extraordinary.
> So I leave it as a very high Good not quite able to make it to Excellent.
> (I think there are something like six episodes this season ranked right
> about there.)
>
>
> One Bit Shy
This is just all utterly terrific! ::applauds::
One Bit Shy
news:e94ce0$3f8$1...@emma.aioe.org...
> "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote in message
> news:12bab9f...@news.supernews.com...
>> "Apteryx" <apt...@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
>> news:e92130$fou$1...@emma.aioe.org...>>> In fact I have a problem with the fact that everyone is in a rush to
>>> kill him when they know Glory has captured him. It seems to be to either
>>> too late, or in too much of a hurry, but I can't find any way to
>>> interpret things so its just right. If Buffy and the gang suppose that
>>> he will readily betray Dawn, why wasn't he staked as soon as he knew she
>>> was the key? But if they have any reason to suppose he is inclined to
>>> protect Dawn (like for instance the fact that in Checkpoint Buffy asked
>>> him to and he did) they seem to be jumping to conclusions.
>>
>> Buffy asked Spike to protect Dawn before Crush and the whole Drusilla
>> incident. At this point Spike is seriously on the outs with everybody -
>> especially now that he's been shown to have gotten a Buffy sexbot built
>> for himself. It's highly unlikely that Buffy would take Dawn to Spike
>> after that. And I imagine that the Drusilla incident appalled Buffy on
>> multiple levels. Aside from being disgusted at Spike's perverse desires
>> and ways, she would see Spike's offering of Dru's life to her as evidence
>> that he would betray anybody for his self interest. (She also has the
>> Yoko Factor and Out Of My Mind experiences to remind her of Spike's
>> willingness to betray her and sacrifice others.) So I think she and
>> everybody were well primed to assume he'd blab. Buffy was flat out ready
>> to stake him this time - finally - because of the freshly perceived risk
>> to Dawn.
>
> A valid interpretation, and one which I am open to - but it only leads me
> to the other end of the dichotomy, that if Buffy and the gang perceived
> obsessed Spike as a threat to Dawn, they are a bit late in deciding to
> stake him only when the threat is underlined when Glory kidnaps him. Maybe
> DPS (Deeply Stupid Syndrome) has spread from the Sunnydale Police to the
> rest of Sunnydale's residents. Gung pbhyq pregnvayl rkcynva gur znaare va
> juvpu Tybel riraghnyyl qvfpbiref gung Qnja vf gur xrl. But short of DPS,
> supposing that the whole gang believed after Crush that Spike was a threat
> doesn't explain why they wait till after Glory has grabbed him to decide
> to stake him.
>
> Overall I prefer the other leg of the dichotomy, that their sudden
> conversion to the Stake Spike Now movement is leaping to conclusions.
> Obviously Buffy wouldn't entrust Dawn to Spike post Crush. But that is
> because she doesn't feel confidence in him, and wouldn't want to feel
> obligated to him. The fact that Buffy now knows he is obsessed with her
> doesn't provide any logical reason why he should now be a threat to Dawn
> to whom he has always been protective in the past, while obsessed (at
> least not in this way, betraying her to Glory).
Valid points. I think I probably overstated their readiness to stake Spike.
I meant it only to explain how they were primed for that conclusion. But I
don't believe they had actually thought anything through that far
previously. Their anti-Spike sentiments were focused on his lust for Buffy.
In other regards they were probably still stuck in the Spike is a joke
mindset. The Glory news shocked them into thinking about it more broadly.
That *was* leaping to a conclusion. (Obviously so, since they were wrong.)
But I think it's a natural leap under the circumstances.
As for any threat to Dawn by leaving him with Spike, I don't believe it
would have been the fact of Spike's obsession that would give Buffy pause.
Rather it would be how Spike plays out his obsession as demonstrated in
Crush by chaining Buffy up and threatening to kill Dru. Spike does crazy
things. Too crazy for Dawn to be safe with him.
Also, buried behind this is the growing realization of how totally
unprepared they are for Glory. They still don't have a clue how to fight
her or why she wants the key or even what she's up to on a low level. (They
probably should have tried to track down where she lives a long time ago.
At least try to keep an eye on her.) They have absolutely no plan for her.
Leaping to conclusions about Spike may be symptomatic of being in total
reactive mode to Glory.
OBS
Elisi
> Maybe he just took a guess from memory.
>
> Or maybe it was the Monk's Spell(tm)!
Maybe he thought Oz left because she turned gay? From 'Doomed':
Spike: "And Red here, - you couldn't even keep dog-boy happy."
Seems a nice theory at least. :)
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> 3D Master <3d.m...@chello.nl> wrote:
> >
> > :rolleyes: A vampire's senses are so accute that he can track someone by
> > their sent across town. A vampire's senses are so accute, they can smell
> > someone else on someone if they've been in close proximity. Even not
> > firing on all thrusters, up close and personal, he still would know it.
>
> Then you're still left with the problem of why Spike didn't realize April
> was a robot.
simce warren was an obvious misogynist because of how he treated april
what does that say about buffys decision to leave buffybot on the scrap heap
and everyone elses ready agreement?
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
One Bit Shy
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>> The weird thing is that, to Spike, this wasn't that big a deal. Being
>> nearly killed by Glory was a big deal. But not the part about keeping
>> Dawn's secret. When Buffy came and kissed him, it stunned Spike. I'm
>> sure
>> he recognized it as gratitude, but the last thing he expected was
>> gratitude.
>> This from the guy who looked for gratitude for not feeding off of
>> disaster
>> victims. He seems as much, if not more stunned by Buffy's remarks on
>> what
>> is real. What actually matters. This is that important? Offering Dru's
>> life up to Buffy in the name of love - that's real to Spike. That's
>> *his*
>> idea of a big deal. Not this. Not his part in it anyway. He just
>> didn't
>> want to see Buffy cry.
>>
>> Now mind you, Spike is unlikely to leave here with many great new
>> understandings. Why exactly does this earn a kiss while not drinking
>> from
>> disaster victims earns disgust? I doubt Spike could answer that. But he
>> did learn that he really can matter to Buffy. And I think that must be
>> motivating.
>
> Good thoughts there. You may have to keep periodically reminding
> everyone the certain blind spots that Spike has in his understanding of
> the human experience... not that you were waiting for an invitation or
> anything.
Invite? Isn't that what every post with the subject "AOQ Review" is? It's
all your doing. I'm just the drive by victim sucked into your insidious
scheme. Oh, woe is me!
>> It probably bears remembering at this point that Buffy also has a great
>> weight lifted from her. Glory doesn't know about Dawn. The disaster she
>> fears hasn't happened. Her sense of relief is immense. Combined with
>> the
>> revelation of just how much Spike went through for her and how important
>> that was to her and then you have the moment of the kiss. Which I
>> believe
>> was an entirely spontaneous expression of gratitude.
>
> Talked about this elsewhere, but Buffy's not a spontaneous kisser, so
> it seems contrived for her to suddently become one.
Yeah, and I responded there. I agree. She's not. Hence, this is a big
deal.
I think it just comes down to whether you believe that what Spike did is a
big enough deal to Buffy to elicit that kind of response. I think it is.
Right now you don't. But I'm pretty sure the episode is trying to say that
it is.
>> What's interesting though, is that it's a kiss. She didn't just say
>> thank
>> you with enthusiasm. Or hug him. Or cry. Or whatever. She kissed him
>> on
>> the lips. Though it doesn't seem terribly sexual. One can debate that
>> forever. But my take is that Buffy knew that's what he would want and
>> decided right then and there that he had earned it.
>>
>> Is that believable?
>
> No.
>
>> Hell, yes.
>
> Ah, those rhetorical questions. Well, YMMV. I've seen Buffy come to
> count Spike as an ally and develop some measure of trust for him
> without it opening her mind to an kind of tolerance of his obsession
> with her.
Spike's never done anything of this magnitude before - at least not that
Buffy would recognize as such. (Spike thought he had with Dru.) More to
the point, this is the first time that the obsession itself generated
something undeniably good in Buffy's eyes. Hence the deal about this being
real while all the other crap he'd done wasn't.
>> I think that no matter what, the kiss has to be somewhat a mixed message
>> for
>> Spike though. But not as bad as it would have been had the scene ended
>> then. Fortunately for Buffy, Spike asked about the Buffybot. That gave
>> Buffy the chance to lay into Spike for that. And really vent by
>> implication
>> her upset at all the disgusting things Spike did.
>
> With all the talk about everyone defining terms differently, your
> definitions of "lay into" and "really vent" are very different from
> mine.
Hey, I did continue to say that it came across more like a scolding. But
that wasn't artfully worded. "Chance" was supposed to indicate more than it
did. This was Buffy's opportunity to lay into Spike. And it did somewhat
serve Buffy's need to vent. But Spike's personal sacrifice had undermined
Buffy's anger enough to turn it into a scolding and school lesson. Don't do
that disgusting stuff. It's not real. This is real.
OBS
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> >level of the kiss that had me yelling 'bullshit" in OOMM. The one that
> >never actually happened, unlike this.
>
> Perhaps it's more evidence that Buffy's own subconscious feelings
> about Spike are more conflicted than her conscious mind believes?
intervention like something blue shows just how wrong
a spike-buffy romance would be
and why it can never happen
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> maxims wrote:
> > 3D Master wrote:
> >
> >> With his senses, there's no way that Spike
> >> doesn't know it's the Buffy and not the Buffybot.
> >
> >
> > But robots in Buffy's world clearly aren't the same as robots in our
> > world - for a start they *feel* different from our robots,
>
> Have you seen the "RealDoll"? Maybe Warren was doing some work on the
> side, after all...
perhaps warren had an opportunity to study julie newmar
Elisi
> intervention like something blue shows just how wrong
> a spike-buffy romance would be
> and why it can never happen
Bar bs zl sevraqf qrfpevorq vg yvxr guvf, "vs lbh qba'g jnag crbcyr gb
nfx sbe Fgrnx, qba'g chg vg ba gur tevyy, naq vs gurl chg vg ba gur
tevyy gung'f jung gurl'er freivat." Fchssl jnf boivbhfyl tbvat gb
unccra sebz gur zvahgr Fcvxr unq uvf qernz va BBZZ.
Naq vg jbhyqa'g unir orra fb tbbq vs vg unqa'g orra jebat! :)
Rowan Hawthorn
> Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> maxims wrote:
>>> 3D Master wrote:
>>>
>>>> With his senses, there's no way that Spike
>>>> doesn't know it's the Buffy and not the Buffybot.
>>>
>>> But robots in Buffy's world clearly aren't the same as robots in our
>>> world - for a start they *feel* different from our robots,
>> Have you seen the "RealDoll"? Maybe Warren was doing some work on the
>> side, after all...
>
> perhaps warren had an opportunity to study julie newmar
One *more* reason for me to hate that little bastard...
Rowan Hawthorn
> chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
>
>> 3D Master <3d.m...@chello.nl> wrote:
>>> :rolleyes: A vampire's senses are so accute that he can track someone by
>>> their sent across town. A vampire's senses are so accute, they can smell
>>> someone else on someone if they've been in close proximity. Even not
>>> firing on all thrusters, up close and personal, he still would know it.
>> Then you're still left with the problem of why Spike didn't realize April
>> was a robot.
>
> simce warren was an obvious misogynist because of how he treated april
> what does that say about buffys decision to leave buffybot on the scrap heap
> and everyone elses ready agreement?
They were all majorly squicked out?
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
> > In article <12bcgbj...@corp.supernews.com>,
> > chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> >
> >> 3D Master <3d.m...@chello.nl> wrote:
> >>> :rolleyes: A vampire's senses are so accute that he can track someone by
> >>> their sent across town. A vampire's senses are so accute, they can smell
> >>> someone else on someone if they've been in close proximity. Even not
> >>> firing on all thrusters, up close and personal, he still would know it.
> >> Then you're still left with the problem of why Spike didn't realize April
> >> was a robot.
> >
> > simce warren was an obvious misogynist because of how he treated april
> > what does that say about buffys decision to leave buffybot on the scrap heap
> > and everyone elses ready agreement?
>
> They were all majorly squicked out?
so much for robot lib
One Bit Shy
news:1152809844.3...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> One Bit Shy wrote:
> This is just all utterly terrific! ::applauds::
Too long. The art of brevity eludes me. But thanks. I appreciate the
sentiment. It's another one of those fascinating moments in the story.
Hard not to talk about it.
OBS
vague disclaimer
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
By Jove! I think you've cracked it.
--
Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
Elisi
Long is good. (Says I, who's written a 5000 word essay on this ep...
Ahem.)
Don Sample
<mair_fheal-5D127...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> In article <12bcgbj...@corp.supernews.com>,
> chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
>
> > 3D Master <3d.m...@chello.nl> wrote:
> > >
> > > :rolleyes: A vampire's senses are so accute that he can track someone by
> > > their sent across town. A vampire's senses are so accute, they can smell
> > > someone else on someone if they've been in close proximity. Even not
> > > firing on all thrusters, up close and personal, he still would know it.
> >
> > Then you're still left with the problem of why Spike didn't realize April
> > was a robot.
>
> simce warren was an obvious misogynist because of how he treated april
> what does that say about buffys decision to leave buffybot on the scrap heap
> and everyone elses ready agreement?
Uh...what decision? At no time does Buffy even suggest that they scrap
the Buffybot. Last time we saw it, Willow was assessing the damage, to
see how difficult it would be to fix it. (Va snpg, gurl whfg fghpx vg
qbja va gur onfrzrag.)
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Don Sample
Stephen Tempest <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> writes:
>
> >If i think that it would've been obvious to me even without the
> >background information that the others don't have, and they remain so
> >clueless, I pretty much give up on trying to suspend disbelief.
>
> April clearly wasn't human (throwing Spike through a window was proof
> of that). The Scoobies were trying to work out what she *was*, and
> quickly came to the conclusion "robot."
>
> Buffy, on the other hand, is obviously human. They've known her for
> years. She's their friend. And if she starts acting in a bizarre
> fashion, of course they're going to be confused and worried - but are
> they seriously going to think she's been replaced by a robot double?
> Is that the normal conclusion you jump to whenever one of your friends
> acts strangely?
The conclusion that they should have jumped to, based on her behaviour,
should have been that Spike had cast some sort of mind control spell on
her.
Rowan Hawthorn
> In article <otGdnYpCh-F...@giganews.com>,
> Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
>>> In article <12bcgbj...@corp.supernews.com>,
>>> chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
>>>
>>>> 3D Master <3d.m...@chello.nl> wrote:
>>>>> :rolleyes: A vampire's senses are so accute that he can track someone by
>>>>> their sent across town. A vampire's senses are so accute, they can smell
>>>>> someone else on someone if they've been in close proximity. Even not
>>>>> firing on all thrusters, up close and personal, he still would know it.
>>>> Then you're still left with the problem of why Spike didn't realize April
>>>> was a robot.
>>> simce warren was an obvious misogynist because of how he treated april
>>> what does that say about buffys decision to leave buffybot on the scrap heap
>>> and everyone elses ready agreement?
>> They were all majorly squicked out?
>
> so much for robot lib
Hey, look how long we've been getting human rights for *humans*, and we
still have a ways to go.
I think the GenuineArtificialPlasticHumanoid-Americans are gonna have to
wait their turn...
Mauro
"Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
news:dsample-27CB62...@news.giganews.com...
> In article <e92130$fou$1...@emma.aioe.org>, "Apteryx" <apt...@xtra.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
> > "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1152675260.0...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > she might want to retire. That leads into a bit of a mystical quest,
> > > with the wide pans across the desert and the musical score setting the
> > > kind of mood we don't often see on the show. With the Hokey Pokey
> > > thrown in, and seeming even funnier than it would've been otherwise.
> >
> > I loved the line "I know this ritual! The ancient shamans were next
called
> > upon to do the hokey-pokey and turn themselves around"
>
> That scene always gives me Londo Mollari flashbacks.
:-)
"After two thousand years of art, literature, culture, and science..."
That's one of my favorite first/second season Londo moments. Thanks for
reminding me of it.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
Willow: (to Buffy) I found where she's broken. Some of these wires got fried
extra crispy. (smiles) It's an easy fix.
Buffy gives her an astonished look.
Willow: I mean ... not that I would.
anyway
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vs jr qrpvqr jneera jnf vaureragyl veerqrrznoyr vaureragyl rivy
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gubhtu ohssl unf qbrf fvzvyne
naq jneeraf hfr bs n fbhyyrff frk gbl jnf nabgure
juvpu ntnva ohssl ercyvpngrf
fb vgf rnfl sbe zr gb haqrefgnaq jul jneera vf eryrtngrq gb veerqrrznoyr rivy
rira gubhtu ohssl abe fcvxr abe jvyybj abe nal bgure uhzna vf nyfb fb qrrzrq
ba gur bgure unaq vs lbh pbafvqre gung jneera qvqag fgneg rivy
naq vs lbh qbag pnabavmr fg gevan (wrnybhf zhpu?)
lbh zvtug pbafvqre gung
jneera qvqag fgneg nyy gung qvssrerag sebz jvyybj be knaqre
naq gurer ohg sbe gur ybir bs tbbq jbzra tb gurl
ohg gung jbhyq ghea jneeraf fgbel vagb gentrql
naq jvyybjf synlvat bs uvz jbhyq or zheqre
anj
gbb uneq
riby riby jneera