AOQ Angel Review 2-15: "Reprise"
Arbitrar Of Quality
episodes in these review threads.
ANGEL
Season Two, Episode 15: "Reprise"
(or "Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose")
Writer: Tim Minear
Director: James Whitmore, Jr.
You know what my deal with _Angel_ is? It's like Elisi said in the
"The Trial" thread: "[big moments are] what Angel the Series does
best. This was why S1 fell so flat, because Angel is best when it's
BIG!" David, Tim, and their cohorts are pretty good at doing BIG
(although there's room for improvement), as this season has proved.
And as episodes 11-14 have proven to me now that I've seen this one,
the writers are also good at quietly and smoothly putting the pieces
into place for the next big episode. What they need to work on is
putting together more entertaining standalones while doing that kind of
setup. In that regard, the series is having the same issue that BTVS
S1 did before that series got consistent; some of the individual shows
can drag, but they all have something to contribute to the overall
story.
Anyway, this is a big week, as set up by the camera work and music as
we pan over the discarded clothing and stuff during the teaser. Once
this came to a funny anticlimax, I knew we'd be revisiting that image
in a less humorous context at the end. It's a good little scene; I
guess vampires all have the power to speed up the film, so it's weird
how rarely they use it. Oh, maybe Tim should make a habit of writing
for sci-fi shows with lots of livestock in them.
I got a kick out of Darla's seeming vulnerability while working on
Lindsey, quickly revealed as an act. Speaking of Lindsey, he's been
looking entirely be-thralled lately, like he can't think straight.
The user becomes the tool... or something.
I generally groan when we visit the Host's bar, since it usually
means lazy plotting or bad humor ahead. At least it's short this
week. It soon becomes clear that Angel's meddling with the little
rituals isn't actually accomplishing anything. So, as we may have
suspected, this is looking to be a big episode, and high time too.
>From there there're some rituals and names of mystical objects
("okay, now you're making this up") that have a purpose - they
serve as a way to say "hey, viewer, this is BIG." I believed it.
And isn't it a trip to see Denver again, after all these years?
Angel's rather flippant (well, by Angel standards) account of the
events of AYNOHYEB is pretty funny, but also sets the tone for his next
step into indifference. Of course, poor Denver was doomed the moment
he said "you happen to be looking at the one guy who can tell you
how," but at least he got his message out before dying. Darla's as
strong a villain as ever here.
One of the perils of writing reviews is that one starts to compose
thoughts in advance while actually watching the episode. The scene
between Wesley and Virginia after the former's run-in with our hero
had me going through a few mental versions of this paragraph. My
original thought was to praise it for actually making decent use of
Virginia, and for "guns? Kind of makes it all a little too real, you
know?" "The gun was fired by a zombie, if it makes you feel any
better." My second draft would've included that but incorporated
thoughts about it falling apart into cheese with her stupid monologue
into his chest. And then I got caught of guard by his realization that
she wants to break up. Okay, it all had a point.
And the followup to that, the phone conversation between Cordy and Wes
I found oddly affecting. A simple, lonely moment. Kral does some
very good work with the music all throughout the show this week, and
that's the most notable example for me.
And speaking of affecting, I've mentioned before that I think
Elisabeth Rohm has generally done better with the subtle stuff than
with the big emotions. We can't follow that rule anymore. The
events of the previous episode end up being a direct catalyst/excuse
for her "irrational" behavior of the last half-year to catch up
with her. Kate's one of those characters I find myself always
pulling for to come through as a heroic do-gooder type, but the
circumstances are convincingly against her here. Her control is
visibly slipping just a little more in every scene; I hated, in a good
way, to hear those little catches in her voice during the hearing as
she gives up... anyone else want to punch the guy who says "I'm just
glad your father's not around to see this?" It finally explodes with
the bottle-smashing thing, a bit of sweeping melodrama that works
because the groundwork has been laid to let it work. As always, TV
character drinking alone = bad news. And jumping ahead again, her
suicide, or suicide attempt (we don't see her afterward) is a punch
to the gut. Ow.
The staging during the confrontation atop W&H seems off to me. Don't
people know Angel at this point? Why does everyone just stare as
he's standing there, and pushes Lilah away? And why does he walk
into the hall and then come back in ("noooobody expects the Angel
Inquisiton!")? Lindsey punching Lilah in the face is the kind of
thing that, if I know Wolfram And Hart, I'd guess will be put aside
for now and not dredged up again until much later, if at all.
They're professionals, you know.
Angel's ready to put an end to everything, give us a big
confrontation. The episode lays a false trail, for the character more
than for the viewer, into thinking that this'll be the climax of the
series. Instead there's a little elevator ride and it turns out to
just be the beginning. After seeing Anderson in the credits, I figured
that the demon they were calling would wear his skin - this works
too. Holland's opus of exposition has some good visuals and moments,
but on the whole, I'm not feeling it. First of all, the big
speechmaking and pure-evil gibberish... eh. For another thing, the big
revelation appears to be that there's evil in the hearts of men
that'll never go away. And this is news because...? Did this really
not occur to Angel before? He seems unreasonably thrown by the fight
not having an end, a lesson which I thought he'd already learned at
least twice. "Strong is fighting!" and all that.
And as for the aftermath of that, it's a mixed bag. Theoretically
some powerful stuff, and some memorable scene composition. But the
staging kinda made things more confusing for me. For example, what's
Cordelia holding during the montage? And I've lost track of the
various apartments in the show; the transcript identifies the one at
the end as Angel's. Um, what apartment? Doesn't he live at the
Hyperion? I wondered whether he was entering Kate's place, which
would've been a sign that she was dead. But anyway, putting that
aside, it's hard to argue with the power of Kate's aforementioned
suicide message coupled with its recipient's total lack of caring, or
Angel willingly running into Darla's arms our of desire to feel
something.
We still don't know the results of W&H's possible purge. I guess
that's why there's more series left.
This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
- "'Make sure all troths are securely fastened and sacrifices
tilted as shown in diagram F-12 to ensure full drainage into sacred
offering bowl...using a clean, diagonal motion slit throat of sacrifice
with the pre-blessed ceremonial dagger provided.' I didn't see that
in the box."
- "You really think now's the time for lunch?" "You mean lunchtime?"
- City of Ang[mumble]
And so another episode ends with Angel awakening with a gasp, a blonde
contentedly sleeping next to him... I think long-term Buffyverse fandom
is necessary to get the full impact, but hey, I'm down with that. I
try not to make too many predictions since they're usually wrong, but
here I am going to speculate that there's no way in hell that this is
curse-shattering True Happiness. He's more likely to be having a
moment of horror over what he's becoming while fully ensouled. So,
what next? Will we find out whether he can still do the magical
pants-summoning?
Now, just this once, can we not follow "Reprise" with a fluff
and/or comedy episode? Here's hoping.
So...
One-sentence summary: We're back, baby.
AOQ rating: Good
[Season Two so far:
1) "Judgment" - Weak
2) "Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been?" - Decent
3) "First Impressions" - Good
4) "Untouched" - Excellent*
5) "Dear Boy" - Good
6) "Guise Will Be Guise" - Decent
7) "Darla" - Good
8) "The Shroud Of Rahmon" - Decent
9) "The Trial" - Excellent
10) "Reunion" - Good
11) "Redefinition" - Decent
12) "Blood Money" - Decent
13) "Happy Anniversary" - Decent
14) "The Thin Dead Line" - Decent
15) "Reprise" - Good]
* rating changed from original review
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> And as episodes 11-14 have proven to me now that I've seen this one,
> the writers are also good at quietly and smoothly putting the pieces
after darla was turned again
angel declared war on wolfram and hart
the senior partners themselves
and thats why darla and lindsey and lilah were more or less ignored
they are just pawns and angel wants the king
angel fully expected it to be a suicidal war
and thats why he cut himself off from cordelia and wesley
to protect them from what he was going to do
he found the doorway to hell
and went in
to do battle with senior partners in their home
and seal off earth from them
and save humanity
at the risk of himself being trapped forever in hell
what he didnt perceive until it was too late
was that the enemy he wants to save humans from is the humans themselves
the senior partners are mere parasites on what humans do naturally
> I got a kick out of Darla's seeming vulnerability while working on
> Lindsey, quickly revealed as an act. Speaking of Lindsey, he's been
> looking entirely be-thralled lately, like he can't think straight.
> The user becomes the tool... or something.
or lindsey is letting darla use him so that he can use darla
> The staging during the confrontation atop W&H seems off to me. Don't
> people know Angel at this point? Why does everyone just stare as
special projects knows him
theres more to wolfram and hart than special projects
> And as for the aftermath of that, it's a mixed bag. Theoretically
> some powerful stuff, and some memorable scene composition. But the
> staging kinda made things more confusing for me. For example, what's
> Cordelia holding during the montage? And I've lost track of the
> various apartments in the show; the transcript identifies the one at
> the end as Angel's. Um, what apartment? Doesn't he live at the
hyperion was a residence hotel
sometimes theyre called rooms or suites or apartments
angel has one specific one he sleeps in
> Hyperion? I wondered whether he was entering Kate's place, which
> would've been a sign that she was dead. But anyway, putting that
> aside, it's hard to argue with the power of Kate's aforementioned
the private detective with a cop inside feeding him information
is one of the oldest cliches of the genre
maybe they decided to get rid of kate as part of the rework at end of season one
and they just wanted to work it up to give her a good sendoff
> suicide message coupled with its recipient's total lack of caring, or
> Angel willingly running into Darla's arms our of desire to feel
> something.
a sort of -there are no ugly people at closing time of a singles bar- moment
> We still don't know the results of W&H's possible purge. I guess
> that's why there's more series left.
does it matter?
there will also be a wolfram and hart
and there will always be slimemold to work for them
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
Kisses To You
they have gotten the best of Angel, the explosive scenes between Angel
and Darla...come on , you didn't even flinch.
All I've got to say is the best is yet to come ..keep watching
It is a great show, well written,funny, dramatic,action packed.This
show has characters we care about,about what happens to them
which is more than I can say for all the garbage that passes for
entertainment on tv right now .
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for future _Buffy_ and _Angel_
> episodes in these review threads.
>
>
> ANGEL
> Season Two, Episode 15: "Reprise"
> (or "Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose")
> Angel's ready to put an end to everything, give us a big
> confrontation. The episode lays a false trail, for the character more
> than for the viewer, into thinking that this'll be the climax of the
> series. Instead there's a little elevator ride and it turns out to
> just be the beginning. After seeing Anderson in the credits, I figured
> that the demon they were calling would wear his skin - this works
> too. Holland's opus of exposition has some good visuals and moments,
> but on the whole, I'm not feeling it. First of all, the big
> speechmaking and pure-evil gibberish... eh. For another thing, the big
> revelation appears to be that there's evil in the hearts of men
> that'll never go away. And this is news because...? Did this really
> not occur to Angel before? He seems unreasonably thrown by the fight
> not having an end, a lesson which I thought he'd already learned at
> least twice. "Strong is fighting!" and all that.
It's a lesson that Angel keeps forgetting, and relearning, and
forgetting, and relearning, and forgetting...
One thing that keeps coming up about vampires, is that they never really
change. They keep doing the same things, over and over. It seems that
Angel isn't immune. He keeps going back to looking for the Big Win, and
has to relearn all over again that it isn't about that.
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> - "'Make sure all troths are securely fastened and sacrifices
> tilted as shown in diagram F-12 to ensure full drainage into sacred
> offering bowl...using a clean, diagonal motion slit throat of sacrifice
> with the pre-blessed ceremonial dagger provided.' I didn't see that
> in the box."
Buffy/Angel writer David Fury was one of the guys sacrificing the goats.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
One Bit Shy
news:1152134606.4...@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> ANGEL
> Season Two, Episode 15: "Reprise"
> You know what my deal with _Angel_ is? It's like Elisi said in the
> "The Trial" thread: "[big moments are] what Angel the Series does
> best. This was why S1 fell so flat, because Angel is best when it's
> BIG!" David, Tim, and their cohorts are pretty good at doing BIG
> (although there's room for improvement), as this season has proved.
I guess this does need to be considered a BIG episode. It certainly raises
the tension, and the Home Office quest is a big kind of thing, even though
the result is deflating to Angel. But it hits me a little differently too.
Probably most of all because the enduring feeling of the episode for me is
one of terrible sadness and lonliness. All the bigness just about everybody
was working for is seriously deflated here. Even W&H's Reed, fallen to his
knees in some kind of reverance towards the coming Senior Partner only gets
to see him die. Holland is the only winner this episode, by saying with a
smirk that he wants nothing so prosaic as winning. (Liar)
This is also the kind of big episode that only settles anything by showing
it to be pointless, while mostly tossing everything else into the air and
leaving everybody lost in a state of flux. We're left with at least 3 cliff
hangers this episode (Kate's suicide attempt, Cordy walking into a trap, and
whatever the heck Angel has awoken too), while everybody else merely has
plenty of trouble to look forward to.
This is not a complaint. It's a very cool episode.
> And as episodes 11-14 have proven to me now that I've seen this one,
> the writers are also good at quietly and smoothly putting the pieces
> into place for the next big episode. What they need to work on is
> putting together more entertaining standalones while doing that kind of
> setup. In that regard, the series is having the same issue that BTVS
> S1 did before that series got consistent; some of the individual shows
> can drag, but they all have something to contribute to the overall
> story.
Maybe someday I'll discuss why I think BtVS S1 is probably that series' most
consistant best realized season. (Best realized does not mean best
overall.) Part of the reason, I think, is that it was not unduly burdened
by the need to integrate individual episodes with a complex ongoing plot.
But I'll leave that there. I don't think it negates your point all that
much. My bigger difference is that I've been happy with most of the stand
alone stories this season (Happy Anniversary being the big exception). They
seem to me to have been a lot more reliable than S1 AtS. Where I've
struggled with them is their integration with the seasonal storyline. I see
what you mean about the pieces being put in place for the next big episode.
But the putting of the pieces has tended to jerk me around in befuddlement.
It's not that I expect to know what is coming, but I kind of hope that
there's enough sense to the flow to go along with it. I'm still struggling
to get my arms around going from Redefinition to Blood Money and Happy
Anniversary. The objective seems to be making more sense - the placing of
the pieces showing purpose - I just haven't been able to construct an image
of Angel's mind hopiing from one place to the next.
But enough of that. This is a good episode.
> Anyway, this is a big week, as set up by the camera work and music as
> we pan over the discarded clothing and stuff during the teaser. Once
> this came to a funny anticlimax, I knew we'd be revisiting that image
> in a less humorous context at the end. It's a good little scene; I
> guess vampires all have the power to speed up the film, so it's weird
> how rarely they use it. Oh, maybe Tim should make a habit of writing
> for sci-fi shows with lots of livestock in them.
Terrific opener. A good touch of humor (I really like Angel's impassive
expression as the scene pulls back to reveal a room full of goats), but not
a joke scene. There's also a good dose of creep and a strong suggestion of
something big in the offing.
> I got a kick out of Darla's seeming vulnerability while working on
> Lindsey, quickly revealed as an act. Speaking of Lindsey, he's been
> looking entirely be-thralled lately, like he can't think straight.
> The user becomes the tool... or something.
If it were magic thrall, Darla probably wouldn't have to put on an act. I
tend to think Lindsey's just totally besotted with Darla.
Lindsey, who says he's always dirty, doesn't end in a great place here.
Darla deceived him and even betrayed him a little. But he's so into her
that he rescued her anyway - in front of everybody at W&H. Somehow I don't
think that earned him many friends there. Least of all Lilah, who he also
slugged - oh, and lied to and betrayed himself. And god forbid he finds out
what Angel and Darla did at the end.
Darla's state of mind is unclear to me. She certainly seemed back in form
early on. But what does she want the Band of Blacknil for? She speaks of
it being about power. It certainly is powerful. But she acts like she has
a purpose for it. That strikes me as one of the great mysteries of the show
that we're left with. In the meantime, though, Angel deprived her of her
goal and then took her body in some we're all vampires here so it's not
really assault sex. She was into it at the end, but somehow I struggle
imagining that's all good to her considering that Angel set her afire and
nearly killed her not so long ago. But, on balance, she's probably better
off than most at this point - and still might get hold of that ring.
> I generally groan when we visit the Host's bar, since it usually
> means lazy plotting or bad humor ahead. At least it's short this
> week.
Not that long I suppose, but interrupted by one of the more awkward
commercial breaks I've seen. The staging of Angel coming back to the Host
after just being with him seemed off to me. I think it should have been a
continuation of the same conversation.
I enjoyed a few of the moments in the bar.
"Not even ten o'clock and we've already run out of yak's bile."
Heh. Since I'm not terribly fond of Andrew Lloyd Weber's music I couldn't
help but snort at the putdown of him.
"I really can't divulge to you what I read in another being. - But I can
tell you what I overheard in the men's restroom."
Heh, again. There are lousy jokes thrown in too. But the Host just keeps
tossing the lines out, so it's easy to discard the bad ones in favor of
whatever tickles your fancy. The Airplane school of humor by volume. So
this trip to his bar worked better than many have.
It also ends with some nice comic timing in the Host pushing Angel away and
then not letting him go as he keeps offering other tidbits of information.
> And isn't it a trip to see Denver again, after all these years?
> Angel's rather flippant (well, by Angel standards) account of the
> events of AYNOHYEB is pretty funny, but also sets the tone for his next
> step into indifference.
I really like that bit. Though it doesn't strike me so much as flippant as
annoyed to be reminded of that failure. The whole scene is good, but Denver
is another in the long list of losers this episode. What a day. Find out
that the thing that changed his life actually happened completely the
opposite - and then get killed. At least he doesn't have to know that his
last bit of help for Angel turns out to be just about as useless as the one
before.
> One of the perils of writing reviews is that one starts to compose
> thoughts in advance while actually watching the episode. The scene
> between Wesley and Virginia after the former's run-in with our hero
> had me going through a few mental versions of this paragraph. My
> original thought was to praise it for actually making decent use of
> Virginia, and for "guns? Kind of makes it all a little too real, you
> know?" "The gun was fired by a zombie, if it makes you feel any
> better."
The great line for me is the next one. "You know, strangely, it doesn't."
It's a killer delivery, showing the character quirk of Virginia I really
like. Alas, I guess she's gone now.
> My second draft would've included that but incorporated
> thoughts about it falling apart into cheese with her stupid monologue
> into his chest. And then I got caught of guard by his realization that
> she wants to break up. Okay, it all had a point.
I think it's a very nice scene - including the shock of the breakup. I
confess, I haven't a clue what Wesley saw to know to say that. But I'll
write that discontinuity off to the insight of intimacy. People that close
often sense things in each other that outsiders don't. So I'll give high
marks to the writing of the scene.
Virginia gets off easy - relatively speaking. All that happens to her is
that she abandons her lover because his dangerous life is tearing her up
inside. But at least she gets away.
Poor Wesley, thoough. Sent to the hospital again because of the gunshot to
his belly. Abandoned by his lover. Getting his face rubbed in the
abandonment by Angel. His lonely call to Cordy goes awry with her
unfortunate remark about not counting as a friend - which I'm sure Wesley
understood was not meant bad - but still enough to block any thought of
asking her to come over and give him some company. Even the one good deed
he does - the cure of the girl's third eye - gets crudely discounted by the
people he helps. He must wonder if he has a future.
> And speaking of affecting, I've mentioned before that I think
> Elisabeth Rohm has generally done better with the subtle stuff than
> with the big emotions. We can't follow that rule anymore. The
> events of the previous episode end up being a direct catalyst/excuse
> for her "irrational" behavior of the last half-year to catch up
> with her. Kate's one of those characters I find myself always
> pulling for to come through as a heroic do-gooder type, but the
> circumstances are convincingly against her here. Her control is
> visibly slipping just a little more in every scene; I hated, in a good
> way, to hear those little catches in her voice during the hearing as
> she gives up... anyone else want to punch the guy who says "I'm just
> glad your father's not around to see this?"
I thought pretty much the same thing.
> It finally explodes with
> the bottle-smashing thing, a bit of sweeping melodrama that works
> because the groundwork has been laid to let it work. As always, TV
> character drinking alone = bad news. And jumping ahead again, her
> suicide, or suicide attempt (we don't see her afterward) is a punch
> to the gut. Ow.
I don't have much to add. This was a very painful part of the show. And,
yes, this has been building for quite some time - actually well back to last
season. While I really would have liked more time focused on her story up
until now (all those Kate drive bys seemed inadequate), the pieces put in
place for her over time did flow very well and are the exception to my
earlier critique.
The part of Kate's suicide call that really got me was, "You made me trust
you. - You made me believe." I'm not entirely certain when she is referring
to. (In her drugged state it may have been a jumble anyway.) But I'm
struck by her slow re-acceptance of Angel since The Shroud Of Rahmon, to the
point of directly working with Angel one last time in the previous episode
and sharing a moment of private fear and anguish over the grave of her
father - the big source of their estrangement - without having that alone
make her reject him again. I hadn't thought they would ever get that close
again. But then, in what I think is a key moment for her this episode, we
find that she's just learned of Angel locking the lawyers in the wine
cellar. I think that's the believing in him that's shattered one last time.
I don't know what will happen now. Her suicide attempt is one of the cliff
hangers. Maybe Angel's jolt awakening will turn out to be some kind of
reverse of Surprise and he'll go save her. Or maybe not. But even with
that kind of wild hope, Kate's clearly one of the really big losers this
episode.
> The staging during the confrontation atop W&H seems off to me. Don't
> people know Angel at this point? Why does everyone just stare as
> he's standing there, and pushes Lilah away? And why does he walk
> into the hall and then come back in ("noooobody expects the Angel
> Inquisiton!")?
I don't have a good answer to the first questions. Wimpy lawyers I guess.
But the last is Angel's plan. He wanted to create a vampire alert, quickly
get out of sight before many people saw him, then draw attention to Darla as
the vampire on site, and make it seem like he's one of the good guys
struggling with her.
What this does for me is once again raise the question of why Darla doesn't
cause a vampire alert. This is twice now at least. And doesn't seem an
accident.
Oh, what's with the exterior elevator? Have we seen that before? I thought
the elevators were all inside.
> Lindsey punching Lilah in the face is the kind of
> thing that, if I know Wolfram And Hart, I'd guess will be put aside
> for now and not dredged up again until much later, if at all.
> They're professionals, you know.
Maybe. They've let some things drop before. But Reed's on record saying he
thought Holland was soft on Lindsey and Lilah. Somehow, Lindsey actively
helping Darla, the great murderer of W&H lawyers, right in front of
everybody doesn't seem like the kind of thing to just shrug one's shoulders
at.
Lilah did better than most this episode, though she is humiliated multiple
times and could be in trouble for letting Angel inside. Angel also used her
to help stage the little who's the real vampire here scene. And she got
slugged by Lindsey, who betrayed her regarding Darla. Still, she probably
figures that she has leverage over Lindsey right now, so she might even
think it was all worth it.
> Angel's ready to put an end to everything, give us a big
> confrontation. The episode lays a false trail, for the character more
> than for the viewer, into thinking that this'll be the climax of the
> series. Instead there's a little elevator ride and it turns out to
> just be the beginning. After seeing Anderson in the credits, I figured
> that the demon they were calling would wear his skin - this works
> too. Holland's opus of exposition has some good visuals and moments,
> but on the whole, I'm not feeling it. First of all, the big
> speechmaking and pure-evil gibberish... eh. For another thing, the big
> revelation appears to be that there's evil in the hearts of men
> that'll never go away. And this is news because...? Did this really
> not occur to Angel before? He seems unreasonably thrown by the fight
> not having an end, a lesson which I thought he'd already learned at
> least twice. "Strong is fighting!" and all that.
I've watched this scene a few times now, puzzling over it. I'm sort of half
with you and half not.
First of all, I love the feel of it. The elevator is great - especially the
nice touch of the elevator music. Very creepy in a surrealistic way. (Of
course I always think elevators and elevator music are kind of creepy. I
remember once being on an elevator trying to figure out what song the Muzak
instrumental was. Suddenly it hit me that it was Prince's 1999. A chipper
instrumental rendition of a song of the apocalypse.
http://www.dtt-lyrics.com/albums/1999.html Boy that weirded me out.)
This was also, to my mind, absolutely the best Holland performance yet. At
this point, I have to say I rather like the character. Too bad he's dead.
The apocalypse part was great. Especially, "Well, you should do that then.
Absolutely. I wasn't thinking." Terrific delivery.
Although the notion of evil in everybody is hardly a new one to the series,
it was good to hear a kind of official W&H take on that. And there really
is a startling element to that. Startling to Angel. Holland seems to be
saying that though they feed from the trough of corruption - they don't
corrupt. The corruption is a constant and they're just there with it. W&H
itself is just a face. Not only would destroying it do no good, they would
just crop up again with another face.
I think this is news to Angel in one sense. He probably doesn't believe
that he could ever be the grand victor over evil (though I think he
fantasizes over that a bit), he did believe in the good of the individual
deed. Carrying on the fight *is* the good. His extravagent nature may have
gotten carried away of late and turned fight into war, but the principal
remains the same. And the road to redemption.
But what Holland does to him is make even that seem pointless. Make it so
that he can't see the distinction between good and evil. They're all rolled
up together as one. The demon and soul within him. The good fight he
carried on with Kate destroying her. The evil not even interested in
winning any fight. Presumably the fight itself is evil manifested.
(Another message that Kate once tried to pass on.)
This is pretty dire stuff. But the thing is, my senses have alarms going
off. I think Holland must by lying his ass off. Oh, I'm sure there are
many truths included. All good propaganda has a strong foundation in truth.
But unless I'm missing something, the bad guys sure as hell intend to win
something. This talk by Holland must itself be part of W&H's campaign to
win Angel to their side.
I think all of this is very good. And as I write this, I realize that I
think it's more good than bad.
However, your point about Angel already knowing that evil is in the hearts
of all men remains valid. An awful lot of the shock of this is built around
some pretty self evident stuff. Furthermore, Angel also knows that he
personally is a "special project". Add that to what should be a general
distrust of all that is W&H, and why does he so readily believe all that
Holland has told him?
I suppose Angel's generally screwed up state of mind going into this makes
him more vulnerable to Holland's lines. And he really was itching for the
big fight and got let down.
But, still, these counter aspects do deflate some the power of an otherwise
fascinating scene.
> And as for the aftermath of that, it's a mixed bag. Theoretically
> some powerful stuff, and some memorable scene composition. But the
> staging kinda made things more confusing for me. For example, what's
> Cordelia holding during the montage?
A piece of paper with the address of the woman who's supposed to pay her for
the 3rd eye removal. Cordy is walking into a trap. Another cliff hanger.
(That demon looks familiar to me. Have we seen one of those before?)
Cordy didn't have all that much bad happen to her this episode - other than
facing Angel and being disappointed again. But she does seem to be walking
towards some kind of peril of death situation.
> And I've lost track of the
> various apartments in the show; the transcript identifies the one at
> the end as Angel's. Um, what apartment? Doesn't he live at the
> Hyperion? I wondered whether he was entering Kate's place, which
> would've been a sign that she was dead.
It's the hotel. I'm pretty sure it's the same as always. We just see more
of it this episode. (Since Angel owns the building, it's probably
reasonable for him to get a suite to live in.)
> But anyway, putting that
> aside, it's hard to argue with the power of Kate's aforementioned
> suicide message coupled with its recipient's total lack of caring, or
> Angel willingly running into Darla's arms our of desire to feel
> something.
I like the montage and Kate's message a great deal. The Darla scene is very
confusing to me. I don't have a good sense of where Darla's head was at in
the various stages of the scene. But the sex seemed hot enough in the end
for Angel to feel something.
> We still don't know the results of W&H's possible purge. I guess
> that's why there's more series left.
Dead Senior Partner. I would imagine that the purge is at least delayed -
if not put off entirely for another 75 years.
> And so another episode ends with Angel awakening with a gasp, a blonde
> contentedly sleeping next to him... I think long-term Buffyverse fandom
> is necessary to get the full impact, but hey, I'm down with that. I
> try not to make too many predictions since they're usually wrong, but
> here I am going to speculate that there's no way in hell that this is
> curse-shattering True Happiness. He's more likely to be having a
> moment of horror over what he's becoming while fully ensouled. So,
> what next? Will we find out whether he can still do the magical
> pants-summoning?
Although the scene is legitimately played with great drama, I still couldn't
help but laugh seeing this replay of the end of Surpise, complete with
thunder and lightening. But not laugh in a bad sense. I'm curious and
really don't have any clues what will happen. Though I too would be
extremely surprised if it's soul gone again.
But since I posited something earlier regarding Kate, I'll still take a stab
at a prediction. In some sense his soul will kick in and reawaken. Maybe
guilt over Kate in particular. And it will drive him to furious and
desperate measures that will somehow bring the whole gang together again -
until subsequent sex with (saved by Angel) Kate brings on yet another moment
of thunder and his soul's departure. ;-)
> Now, just this once, can we not follow "Reprise" with a fluff
> and/or comedy episode? Here's hoping.
I don't know how it couldn't follow up immediately. There are at least 3
cliff hangers here. And the mystery of Darla's interest in the ring. I'm
going to go watch it now - as soon as I post this. Should I tell you what I
find? ;-)
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: We're back, baby.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
I want to add that I think this episode is wonderfully diverting just for
the volume and variety of scenes. And it's fast paced. It really keeps
your interest going. Also generally well filmed. The teaser is positively
beautiful. The montage is tear jerking. Just a lot of good elements.
For me, this makes it to Excellent.
OBS
One Bit Shy
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mair_fheal-744B8...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> angel fully expected it to be a suicidal war
> and thats why he cut himself off from cordelia and wesley
> to protect them from what he was going to do
If that's true, it belies the way the split was presented.
Cordy: You have to change the way you've been doing things. - Don't you see
where this is taking you?
Wesley: Listen to her! Right now the three of us are all that's standing
between you and real darkness.
Gunn: Best believe that, man.
Angel: I do. - You're all fired.
That seems to pretty clearly say that he did it because they were in the
way - preventing him from entering the darkness he believed he needed to
enter.
OBS
Mel
Another way to view it is he doesn't want to drag them down into the
darkness with him. Just like he didn't want Buffy to have to look after
him as a human (IWRY). And just like he didn't want Buffy to spend her
life in the dark with him (The Prom).
He's again making the gallant gesture to protect the ones he loves, but
doing it in a way that they don't really understand and only see as
hurtful. And of course they resent him for it, to the point where they
get huffy when he comes looking for his own books they took when he
fired them.
Mel
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Buffy/Angel writer David Fury was one of the guys sacrificing the goats.
Noticed him in the credits, but forgot to mention it.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> after darla was turned again
> angel declared war on wolfram and hart
> the senior partners themselves
> and thats why darla and lindsey and lilah were more or less ignored
> they are just pawns and angel wants the king
That doesn't entirely check given that he spent "Redefinition" working
up the will to go after Darla in particular, and then spent plenty of
time and effort playing with the LMs in "Blood Money.". The read I got
on BM/HA was that Angel was never really in control or working from any
master plan.
> > We still don't know the results of W&H's possible purge. I guess
> > that's why there's more series left.
>
> does it matter?
> there will also be a wolfram and hart
> and there will always be slimemold to work for them
True enough. And as OBS pointed out, the Senior Partner's dead, so
that'd probably cancel all the associated rituals.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
IAWTP.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> My bigger difference is that I've been happy with most of the stand
> alone stories this season (Happy Anniversary being the big exception). They
> seem to me to have been a lot more reliable than S1 AtS. Where I've
> struggled with them is their integration with the seasonal storyline. I see
> what you mean about the pieces being put in place for the next big episode.
> But the putting of the pieces has tended to jerk me around in befuddlement.
Well, I was confused for awhile too (it makes sense in retrospect).
I'm the other way around - I don't think the "throwaway" (using the
term loosely) shows are really any better than they were last season,
but there's been a certain momentum throughout, like the show is going
somewhere. That wasn't the case for me in S1 until near the end.
> > I got a kick out of Darla's seeming vulnerability while working on
> > Lindsey, quickly revealed as an act. Speaking of Lindsey, he's been
> > looking entirely be-thralled lately, like he can't think straight.
> > The user becomes the tool... or something.
>
> If it were magic thrall, Darla probably wouldn't have to put on an act. I
> tend to think Lindsey's just totally besotted with Darla.
Oh, in case it was unclear, I didn't mean anything supernatural by the
"thrall" stattment (other than the involvement of a vampire).
Besotted, like you say.
> In the meantime, though, Angel deprived her of her
> goal and then took her body in some we're all vampires here so it's not
> really assault sex. She was into it at the end, but somehow I struggle
> imagining that's all good to her considering that Angel set her afire and
> nearly killed her not so long ago.
[from later]
> The Darla scene is very
> confusing to me. I don't have a good sense of where Darla's head was at in
> the various stages of the scene.
I just saw it as being initially suspicious, then letting herself get
swept away in the vampire-ness, then recovering her senses enough to
wonder if he was playing some sort of mind game, then becoming
convinced that he was for real and would be up for a moment of
happiness.
Darla seems to be happy as long as she's bringing out that side of
Angel. Vampires tend to be pretty forgiving of violence - recall how
much Drusilla hated souled Angel back in BTVS S2 compared to how much
she liked the evil version who killed her and everyone she loved.
> I don't have much to add. This was a very painful part of the show. And,
> yes, this has been building for quite some time - actually well back to last
> season. While I really would have liked more time focused on her story up
> until now (all those Kate drive bys seemed inadequate), the pieces put in
> place for her over time did flow very well and are the exception to my
> earlier critique.
She's been kinda MIA this season, so agreed about the time spent thing.
I appreciated these scenes more based on memories of the character
from S1.
> The part of Kate's suicide call that really got me was, "You made me trust
> you. - You made me believe." I'm not entirely certain when she is referring
> to. (In her drugged state it may have been a jumble anyway.)
Just occurrred to me what a big part belief has played in Kate's arc.
KATE: You're telling me children's stories.
ANGEL: I'm telling you the truth.
KATE (spinning back): No. I don't believe you.
ANGEL: I know you don't. Even after what you saw you won't let
yourself, which is why you'll lose.
- from "Somnambulist"
KENDRICK: Scully is the chick, right?
KATE: Yes. But she's not the one that wants to believe.
KENDRICK: And you wanna believe.
KATE: Oh, I already believe. That's the problem.
- from "Sanctuary"
> But since I posited something earlier regarding Kate, I'll still take a stab
> at a prediction. In some sense his soul will kick in and reawaken. Maybe
> guilt over Kate in particular. And it will drive him to furious and
> desperate measures that will somehow bring the whole gang together again -
> until subsequent sex with (saved by Angel) Kate brings on yet another moment
> of thunder and his soul's departure. ;-)
Hmmm.
> I don't know how it couldn't follow up immediately. There are at least 3
> cliff hangers here. And the mystery of Darla's interest in the ring. I'm
> going to go watch it now - as soon as I post this. Should I tell you what I
> find? ;-)
I've actually seen it at this point, so, you don't frighten me. I'm a
little ahead, so I can do another offloading of reviews when I'm away
again this weekend.
> I want to add that I think this episode is wonderfully diverting just for
> the volume and variety of scenes. And it's fast paced. It really keeps
> your interest going. Also generally well filmed. The teaser is positively
> beautiful. The montage is tear jerking. Just a lot of good elements.
Mentioned it in the review, but this was one of the few times in which
I noticed music. I thought the soundtrack was particularly good this
week, throughout, and added a lot to the good elements of the show.
-AOQ
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> early on. But what does she want the Band of Blacknil for? She speaks of
> it being about power. It certainly is powerful. But she acts like she has
does it matter?
the earth doesnt have evil because theres a portal it flows in through
but because its inherent to the place
so does it matter if darla can flit between dimensions?
> But what Holland does to him is make even that seem pointless. Make it so
> that he can't see the distinction between good and evil. They're all rolled
> up together as one. The demon and soul within him. The good fight he
> carried on with Kate destroying her. The evil not even interested in
> winning any fight. Presumably the fight itself is evil manifested.
> (Another message that Kate once tried to pass on.)
my take is that holland is now stuck as an elevator operator for w-h
for a very long time (if not forever)
as long as he does his job they dont care what he says
so why shouldnt he tell angel the truth as he sees it
there cannot be absolute victory for good or evil
unless humans are fundamentally changed
because the best humans have some evil
and worst humans have some good
so those whose only victory has to be an absolute one (like adam or angel)
are going to lose
wolfram and hart are not interested in absolute victory
merely continuing in some degree of power and profit
so the current situation suits them just fine
parasites dont want to kill their host
parasites thrive as their host thrives
they just want to steal a little sustenance from their host
> > We still don't know the results of W&H's possible purge. I guess
> > that's why there's more series left.
>
> Dead Senior Partner. I would imagine that the purge is at least delayed -
> if not put off entirely for another 75 years.
i dont think so
i think that particular incarnation was destroyed
but that senior partner still exists somewhere
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
>
> > after darla was turned again
> > angel declared war on wolfram and hart
> > the senior partners themselves
> > and thats why darla and lindsey and lilah were more or less ignored
> > they are just pawns and angel wants the king
>
> That doesn't entirely check given that he spent "Redefinition" working
> up the will to go after Darla in particular, and then spent plenty of
> time and effort playing with the LMs in "Blood Money.". The read I got
> on BM/HA was that Angel was never really in control or working from any
> master plan.
you mean he couldnt just be proactive with pep?
he didnt know he had an opportunity to go to the home office until this episode
but hes been targeting the senior partners
darla and the doublemint twins have been the available targets so far
> > > We still don't know the results of W&H's possible purge. I guess
> > > that's why there's more series left.
> >
> > does it matter?
> > there will also be a wolfram and hart
> > and there will always be slimemold to work for them
>
> True enough. And as OBS pointed out, the Senior Partner's dead, so
> that'd probably cancel all the associated rituals.
i dont think the senior partner is dead
just that demon incarnation it was clothed in
Apteryx
news:1152134606.4...@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for future _Buffy_ and _Angel_
> episodes in these review threads.
>
>
> we pan over the discarded clothing and stuff during the teaser. Once
> this came to a funny anticlimax, I knew we'd be revisiting that image
> in a less humorous context at the end. It's a good little scene; I
> guess vampires all have the power to speed up the film, so it's weird
> how rarely they use it. Oh, maybe Tim should make a habit of writing
> for sci-fi shows with lots of livestock in them.
That and the fact that Lilah is scared (not easy) shows us something big is
happening. Liked the line about how in the last review, half of middle
management got sacked, and they used actual sacks, and Lilah's realisation
that her mother was right - she should have had kids.
> I got a kick out of Darla's seeming vulnerability while working on
> Lindsey, quickly revealed as an act. Speaking of Lindsey, he's been
> looking entirely be-thralled lately, like he can't think straight.
Probably he enthralled, but then again, Lindsey was never a straight W&H
lackey. Holland even liked him for that.
> but on the whole, I'm not feeling it. First of all, the big
> speechmaking and pure-evil gibberish... eh. For another thing, the big
> revelation appears to be that there's evil in the hearts of men
> that'll never go away. And this is news because...? Did this really
> not occur to Angel before?
He's gone through a period of tunnel vision. He figured that fighting W&H
was the objective, defeating W&H would defeat evil. Holland shows him he's
wrong. But of course Holland is still under contract to W&H.
> would've been a sign that she was dead. But anyway, putting that
> aside, it's hard to argue with the power of Kate's aforementioned
> suicide message coupled with its recipient's total lack of caring, or
> Angel willingly running into Darla's arms our of desire to feel
> something.
But of course the question we all want to know the answer to - is he happy?
Because that was what turned him in Innocence. Why does everyone assume its
all about sex :)
>
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> - "'Make sure all troths are securely fastened and sacrifices
> tilted as shown in diagram F-12 to ensure full drainage into sacred
> offering bowl...using a clean, diagonal motion slit throat of sacrifice
> with the pre-blessed ceremonial dagger provided.' I didn't see that
> in the box."
Ah yes, right there's the trouble with using minions to do a High Priest's
job. These days even W&H think they can do a professional job with
unprofessional staff.
>
> One-sentence summary: We're back, baby.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
Good for me too. Its risen 4 places on this rewatching to be 9th best AtS
episode, 4th best in season 2
--
Apteryx
Elisi
> You know what my deal with _Angel_ is? It's like Elisi said in the
> "The Trial" thread: "[big moments are] what Angel the Series does
> best. This was why S1 fell so flat, because Angel is best when it's
> BIG!" David, Tim, and their cohorts are pretty good at doing BIG
> (although there's room for improvement), as this season has proved.
> And as episodes 11-14 have proven to me now that I've seen this one,
> the writers are also good at quietly and smoothly putting the pieces
> into place for the next big episode. What they need to work on is
> putting together more entertaining standalones while doing that kind of
> setup. In that regard, the series is having the same issue that BTVS
> S1 did before that series got consistent; some of the individual shows
> can drag, but they all have something to contribute to the overall
>story.
I'm so thrilled that you quoted me! :) But you're right - there are a
lot of dubious stand-alones in the arch. I always tend to forget about
them, and just remember the good Darla stuff!
> Angel's ready to put an end to everything, give us a big
> confrontation. The episode lays a false trail, for the character more
> than for the viewer, into thinking that this'll be the climax of the
> series. Instead there's a little elevator ride and it turns out to
> just be the beginning. After seeing Anderson in the credits, I figured
> that the demon they were calling would wear his skin - this works
> too. Holland's opus of exposition has some good visuals and moments,
> but on the whole, I'm not feeling it. First of all, the big
> speechmaking and pure-evil gibberish... eh. For another thing, the big
> revelation appears to be that there's evil in the hearts of men
> that'll never go away. And this is news because...? Did this really
> not occur to Angel before? He seems unreasonably thrown by the fight
> not having an end, a lesson which I thought he'd already learned at
> least twice. "Strong is fighting!" and all that.
But Angel doesn't have that good a memory... Heh. No actually, I think
Angel likes to make BIG gestures. Going on a kamikaze mission to make
the world a better place is exactly his thing. I think this is the
difference between him and Buffy - Buffy never had a choice in being
the Slayer, and although she enjoys her powers (and probably wouldn't
know what to do if she lost them), there's always an element of wanting
'a normal life'. Angel _likes_ being the big hero - he has a purpose.
The problem is that if that purpose goes away, he tends to despair (as
in 'Amends').
> Angel willingly running into Darla's arms our of desire to feel
> something.
And this is where the despair brings him. I caught this scene on TV a
few weeks ago, and it always gives me goosebumps. Angel is just so
*dark*. The way it's shot emphasises what a big guy he is, and his
physical presence is just overwhelming:
Angel: "Why're you laughing? Don't you feel the cold?"
::shivers::
Also (for me) it points out just how utterly inappropriate it was for
him to date a sweet 16-year-old...
Apteryx
news:beKdnWbY0LP15jHZ...@uci.net...
I don't think that is quite it, at least at the time he fired them. He
didn't need to protect them from being dragged down into darkness - they
showed no sign of being willing to be dragged down. I think his motivation
at the end of Reunion was just as it appeared. He wanted to go down into
darkness, because he thought he needed to do that to fight W&H. And he
thought they would impede him (as in fact they said they would).
--
Apteryx
lili...@gmail.com
Elisi schreef:
>
> But Angel doesn't have that good a memory... Heh. No actually, I think
> Angel likes to make BIG gestures. Going on a kamikaze mission to make
> the world a better place is exactly his thing. I think this is the
> difference between him and Buffy - Buffy never had a choice in being
> the Slayer, and although she enjoys her powers (and probably wouldn't
> know what to do if she lost them), there's always an element of wanting
> 'a normal life'. Angel _likes_ being the big hero - he has a purpose.
> The problem is that if that purpose goes away, he tends to despair (as
> in 'Amends').
>
Oh yes, as shown in IWRY, he can't get rid of his humanity fast enough,
because without his powers, he feels like he's nothing. Like he doesn't
matter.
Not just the power, but the mission, the position of champion. Thinking
about it again he may even have withstood being human, if the Oracles
hadn't taken away his position of champion.
Now don't get me wrong, most of the time I actually like Angel, but...
if there's one thing about him, it's that he doesn't just want to be
the big hero, he needs to be the big hero. He needs to feel important,
on a mission, seen as this heroic figure, in order to feel needed, to
have purpose.
Bu ur'yy gel naq tvir hc ba gung ovg bs neebtnapr sbe n juvyr, ohg vg'f
fgvyy gurer.
Rira jura ur fnlf ur'yy jbex sbe Pbeql, Jrf naq Thaa vafgrnq bs gur
bgure jnl nebhaq, vg'f n uhtr fnpevsvpr sbe uvz. Ohg vg punsrf. Ur
xrrcf jnagvat gb tb onpx gb orvat gur yrnqre, gb orvat ba gbc bs
guvatf.
V guvax fjnyybjvat uvf cevqr naq sbyybjvat jnf cebonoyl gur orfg guvat
ur pbhyq unir qbar. Guvatf zvtug unir ghearq bhg orggre ng gur raq, vs
ur'q bayl orra noyr gb vagrtengr gung yrffba n ovg zber.
Lore
jil...@hotmail.com
One Bit Shy wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1152134606.4...@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > thoughts in advance while actually watching the episode. The scene
> > between Wesley and Virginia after the former's run-in with our hero
> > had me going through a few mental versions of this paragraph. My
> > original thought was to praise it for actually making decent use of
> > Virginia, and for "guns? Kind of makes it all a little too real, you
> > know?" "The gun was fired by a zombie, if it makes you feel any
> > better."
>
> The great line for me is the next one. "You know, strangely, it doesn't."
> It's a killer delivery, showing the character quirk of Virginia I really
> like. Alas, I guess she's gone now.
>
> > My second draft would've included that but incorporated
> > thoughts about it falling apart into cheese with her stupid monologue
> > into his chest. And then I got caught of guard by his realization that
> > she wants to break up. Okay, it all had a point.
> Virginia gets off easy - relatively speaking. All that happens to her is
> that she abandons her lover because his dangerous life is tearing her up
> inside. But at least she gets away.
>
> Poor Wesley, thoough. Sent to the hospital again because of the gunshot to
> his belly. Abandoned by his lover.
You mean the lover who he'd developed a tendency to talk down to, and
be dismissive of her attempts to help him out? Didn't anyone else
notice how he'd started to treat her? While seeing him getting injured
doing these things certainly upset her, his behavior towards her was
certainly the clincher.
Elisi
> That doesn't entirely check given that he spent "Redefinition" working
> up the will to go after Darla in particular, and then spent plenty of
> time and effort playing with the LMs in "Blood Money.". The read I got
> on BM/HA was that Angel was never really in control or working from any
> master plan.
I don't think he had one either. He was trying to inflict damage, but
he knew he was just chasing minions. See there are some parallels to
Buffy. To quote FFL for a second:
"And we just keep coming. But you can kill a hundred, a thousand, a
thousand thousand and the enemies of Hell besides... "
Angel can keep killing minions - thousands of them - but unlike Buffy
he thinks that there is a root to the problem, and if he can just kill
that, then things will get better. This is where the whole prophecy
thing comes in. Buffy's not had to deal with prophecies since S1, but
Angel's life seems to evolve around the shanshu. Not the reward, but
the fact that he has a role to play, and both sides are fighting over
him. So he hopes that if he can make one big gesture - going down in a
blaze of glory - it'll be over. And then comes the big let down. There
is no gesture big enough, because what he is fighting is a shadow.
"See, the world doesn't work in spite of evil, Angel. - It works with
us. - It works because of us."
How can you fight the evil in every person's heart? It's quite simply
not possible. No wonder he despairs. (Of course Holland shrugs off the
Apocalypse question far too smooothly...)
> True enough. And as OBS pointed out, the Senior Partner's dead, so
> that'd probably cancel all the associated rituals.
Not sure he's dead. I doubt it'd be that simple. (I honestly can't
remember. I'll have to go re-watch.)
George W Harris
wrote:
:I don't know what will happen now. Her suicide attempt is one of the cliff
:hangers. Maybe Angel's jolt awakening will turn out to be some kind of
:reverse of Surprise and he'll go save her. Or maybe not. But even with
:that kind of wild hope, Kate's clearly one of the really big losers this
:episode.
Kate's never invited Angel into her home. That's worth
remembering.
:Oh, what's with the exterior elevator? Have we seen that before? I thought
:the elevators were all inside.
I think it was just a mystical elevator, called forth as a
special effect of the ring.
:
:Maybe. They've let some things drop before. But Reed's on record saying he
:thought Holland was soft on Lindsey and Lilah. Somehow, Lindsey actively
:helping Darla, the great murderer of W&H lawyers, right in front of
:everybody doesn't seem like the kind of thing to just shrug one's shoulders
:at.
I envision W&H being somewhat like the Enterprise
in "Mirror, Mirror" - advancement through betrayal and
assassination is expected. Possibly encouraged.
--
e^(i*pi)+1=0
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.
One Bit Shy
I don't think Angel said it to be mean to the crew, and I'm sure he didn't
want to take them into trouble. But I still don't see that as the motive of
the split. He felt he needed to go to a dark place and believed they were
preventing him from doing so. Angel pretty much says so in that statement.
And Cordy, Wesley & Gunn are themselves making a stand telling Angel they
won't let him go there. Earlier in the same episode we saw it literally
happening when they made him go help the kid with the gun instead of going
after Darla.
I'm sorry, but I'm not convinced Angel cut them off because he was concerned
about their well being. I believe he did it because they had too much
influence on him and it was getting in his way.
OBS
One Bit Shy
news:mair_fheal-E8BE2...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> In article <1152160271.9...@j8g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>> mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
>>
>> > after darla was turned again
>> > angel declared war on wolfram and hart
>> > the senior partners themselves
>> > and thats why darla and lindsey and lilah were more or less ignored
>> > they are just pawns and angel wants the king
>>
>> That doesn't entirely check given that he spent "Redefinition" working
>> up the will to go after Darla in particular, and then spent plenty of
>> time and effort playing with the LMs in "Blood Money.". The read I got
>> on BM/HA was that Angel was never really in control or working from any
>> master plan.
>
> you mean he couldnt just be proactive with pep?
>
> he didnt know he had an opportunity to go to the home office until this
> episode
> but hes been targeting the senior partners
> darla and the doublemint twins have been the available targets so far
Doublemint twins? LOL I like that. Is that a common name for them?
>> > > We still don't know the results of W&H's possible purge. I guess
>> > > that's why there's more series left.
>> >
>> > does it matter?
>> > there will also be a wolfram and hart
>> > and there will always be slimemold to work for them
>>
>> True enough. And as OBS pointed out, the Senior Partner's dead, so
>> that'd probably cancel all the associated rituals.
>
> i dont think the senior partner is dead
> just that demon incarnation it was clothed in
That may be. It's kind of hard to tell for sure from the descriptions.
Denver speaks of using the form of the Klaynach demon to manifest. And the
Host says that most anything that can manifest in this dimension can be
killed. (The down side of being here.) That mostly seems to point to dead
SP. But that assumes that the manifestation is the whole of the SP while
it's in this dimension. I suppose it could be just an extension of it - a
visible aspect. The core of the being might even still be in the other
dimension for all I know. Or perhaps it's not really a manifestation, but
more like a possession. The episode doesn't get specific enough to say with
certainty.
But lacking further information, I'd still take the preponderance of
evidence as being that the manifestation is the SP in this dimension and,
hence, now dead.
OBS
One Bit Shy
news:1152176105....@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Angel can keep killing minions - thousands of them - but unlike Buffy
> he thinks that there is a root to the problem, and if he can just kill
> that, then things will get better. This is where the whole prophecy
> thing comes in. Buffy's not had to deal with prophecies since S1, but
> Angel's life seems to evolve around the shanshu. Not the reward, but
> the fact that he has a role to play, and both sides are fighting over
> him. So he hopes that if he can make one big gesture - going down in a
> blaze of glory - it'll be over. And then comes the big let down. There
> is no gesture big enough, because what he is fighting is a shadow.
That's interesting. And would be supported by this:
Holland: Hm-mm, now tell me just what do you think that would accomplish?
In the end, I mean.
Angel: It'll be - the end.
Holland: Well, the end of you, certainly. But I meant in the larger sense.
Angel: In the larger sense I really don't give a crap.
And considering his big failure with Darla and rejection by his human
friends, he might very well be ready to pack it in now anyway.
Of course Holland immediately tells Angel that he does care. And Angel
shows that he at least cares who wins. And I think it gradually comes clear
that Angel is working with the presumption that whatever havoc he raises
with the SP will be for the good.
And, well, that goes to the making things better part, which I think I got.
It's wanting it all to be over that didn't fully register on me. I'll have
to ponder that some more.
OBS
Mel
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
>>Darla's state of mind is unclear to me. She certainly seemed back in form
>>early on. But what does she want the Band of Blacknil for? She speaks of
>>it being about power. It certainly is powerful. But she acts like she has
>
>
> does it matter?
> the earth doesnt have evil because theres a portal it flows in through
> but because its inherent to the place
> so does it matter if darla can flit between dimensions?
Makes you wonder if the evil is "inherent" because the earth was
originally ruled by demons. Humans only appeared after the demons went
away. Perhaps the place was so corrupted by the demon presence it
couldn't help but soak into the new humans and continue on as they did.
As Giles tells the gang way back in the beginning, it's quite a
different picture than the "actual" history of earth, in which it starts
out as paradise that is later corrupted by humans.
Mel
Elisi
> And, well, that goes to the making things better part, which I think I got.
> It's wanting it all to be over that didn't fully register on me. I'll have
> to ponder that some more.
>
> OBS
I've actually been pondering too, sort of in the vein of the whole
death wish theory. The thing is that a Slayer's problem is compeletely
different - something is always out to kill her, but it's usually
fairly impersonal, and fairly swiftly dispatched. Angel has W&H wanting
to keep him around until whenever this apocalypse happens... and a
future full of constant (specifically tailored) undermining must seem
awfully bleak. He wants to do the right thing, somehow (he does give a
crap, if only a little), but I think he's scared of falling - it's only
been a year and a half since he took up his mission, and look how deep
he has sunk already.
Does that make sense?
Elisi
One Bit Shy
news:mair_fheal-A6897...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
>> Darla's state of mind is unclear to me. She certainly seemed back in
>> form
>> early on. But what does she want the Band of Blacknil for? She speaks
>> of
>> it being about power. It certainly is powerful. But she acts like she
>> has
>
> does it matter?
In the grand scheme of things? LOL
It's just a plot point involving the central character in a plot heavy part
of the season. I have no idea if it matters. I just know that Darla, the
scheming vampire seeking power, wanted the ring really badly, so I wondered
what she had in mind.
> my take is that holland is now stuck as an elevator operator for w-h
> for a very long time (if not forever)
That's a very amusing notion. Gotta fulfill that contract.
> wolfram and hart are not interested in absolute victory
> merely continuing in some degree of power and profit
> so the current situation suits them just fine
> parasites dont want to kill their host
> parasites thrive as their host thrives
> they just want to steal a little sustenance from their host
Well, you've seen the series and I haven't. But I'm skeptical at this
point. I'm sure an aspect of that is true, but their concern over where
Angel falls in the coming apocalypse seems to go beyond the indifference to
outcome that Holland suggests.
Of course, if it has to be termed as absolute victory, then they may not be
interested. But as grand as Angel's hopes and gestures may be, I'm not
convinced victory had to be absolute for him either.
OBS
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
wrote:
> mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
> >>Darla's state of mind is unclear to me. She certainly seemed back in form
> >>early on. But what does she want the Band of Blacknil for? She speaks of
> >>it being about power. It certainly is powerful. But she acts like she has
> >
> >
> > does it matter?
> > the earth doesnt have evil because theres a portal it flows in through
> > but because its inherent to the place
> > so does it matter if darla can flit between dimensions?
>
>
> Makes you wonder if the evil is "inherent" because the earth was
> originally ruled by demons. Humans only appeared after the demons went
theologically evil is a consequence of being able to choose
a consequence of having a soul
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> shows that he at least cares who wins. And I think it gradually comes clear
> that Angel is working with the presumption that whatever havoc he raises
> with the SP will be for the good.
>
> And, well, that goes to the making things better part, which I think I got.
> It's wanting it all to be over that didn't fully register on me. I'll have
> to ponder that some more.
- hey angel want to see my jesus impersonation?
whomp
- jesus?
- well like if he was really pissed off or something
angel is descending into hell to do battle with evil to save mankind
holland warns him that it is one way journey
and angel is fine with that
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> > for a very long time (if not forever)
>
> That's a very amusing notion. Gotta fulfill that contract.
whats sad is that holland appears to have understood all along
what his employment contract entailed
and he was happy to have a few good years of influence and wealth
and then an eternity as hells errand boy
> Well, you've seen the series and I haven't. But I'm skeptical at this
> point. I'm sure an aspect of that is true, but their concern over where
this isnt based on future episode but what has been consistently portrayed so far
wolfram and hart want to be players and the game to continue
that is how they win
i dont see any reason for them to lie about this
> Angel falls in the coming apocalypse seems to go beyond the indifference to
> outcome that Holland suggests.
if big good ever wins an absolute victory
that will be a defeat for wolfram and hart
with angel to fight for them their chances improve
One Bit Shy
news:1152171343....@a14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
That's a lot to draw from the few brief scenes we've seen with them. Maybe
there's more behind the scenes that I don't know about, but that seems a
little excessive for what we've been shown. Especially considering that
Wesley was seriously hurt one way or the other in the two main scenes with
them.
OBS
Arbitrar Of Quality
> And this is where the despair brings him. I caught this scene on TV a
> few weeks ago, and it always gives me goosebumps. Angel is just so
> *dark*. The way it's shot emphasises what a big guy he is, and his
> physical presence is just overwhelming:
>
> Angel: "Why're you laughing? Don't you feel the cold?"
>
> ::shivers::
>
> Also (for me) it points out just how utterly inappropriate it was for
> him to date a sweet 16-year-old...
One thing that was a big part of "Angel" (the episode) for me that's
easy to lose sight of is that there was an element of mischief and
curiosity, especially at first. Things seemed to be set up to make all
things B/A as obviously "wrong" as possible. Not only is Angel
noticably older than she is, it turns out to be hundreds of years, and
that he's a _vampire_, and a former killer, and there's so much she
doesn't know about him. It's easy to forget that Angel was still
extremely mysterious and unknown at this point in the show's life; I
saw it for the first time fairly recently, and even then it's hard to
remember that. only kinda remember which I kinda remember having seen
it for the first time relatively recently. Anyway, the idea of the two
of them hooking up was so very wrong, which is why in that adolescent
(or immature-beyond-your-years) way, it was so irresistable.
-AOQ
Elisi
> Anyway, the idea of the two
> of them hooking up was so very wrong, which is why in that adolescent
> (or immature-beyond-your-years) way, it was so irresistable.
>
> -AOQ
Oh absolutely! Don't get me wrong, I was *totally* hooked back when I
first saw it! The whole star crossed lovers thing, and knowing that it
couldn't have a happy ending... definitely irresistible. The show
wouldn't have been the same without!
reld...@usa.net
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for future _Buffy_ and _Angel_
> episodes in these review threads.
>
>
> Season Two, Episode 15: "Reprise"
> (or "Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose")
> Writer: Tim Minear
> Director: James Whitmore, Jr.
>
> You know what my deal with _Angel_ is? It's like Elisi said in the
> "The Trial" thread: "[big moments are] what Angel the Series does
> best. This was why S1 fell so flat, because Angel is best when it's
> BIG!" David, Tim, and their cohorts are pretty good at doing BIG
> (although there's room for improvement), as this season has proved.
> And as episodes 11-14 have proven to me now that I've seen this one,
> the writers are also good at quietly and smoothly putting the pieces
> into place for the next big episode. What they need to work on is
> putting together more entertaining standalones while doing that kind of
> setup. In that regard, the series is having the same issue that BTVS
> S1 did before that series got consistent; some of the individual shows
> can drag, but they all have something to contribute to the overall
> story.
>
> we pan over the discarded clothing and stuff during the teaser. Once
> this came to a funny anticlimax, I knew we'd be revisiting that image
> in a less humorous context at the end. It's a good little scene; I
> guess vampires all have the power to speed up the film, so it's weird
> how rarely they use it. Oh, maybe Tim should make a habit of writing
> for sci-fi shows with lots of livestock in them.
>
> Lindsey, quickly revealed as an act. Speaking of Lindsey, he's been
> looking entirely be-thralled lately, like he can't think straight.
>
> means lazy plotting or bad humor ahead. At least it's short this
> week. It soon becomes clear that Angel's meddling with the little
> rituals isn't actually accomplishing anything. So, as we may have
> suspected, this is looking to be a big episode, and high time too.
> >From there there're some rituals and names of mystical objects
> ("okay, now you're making this up") that have a purpose - they
> serve as a way to say "hey, viewer, this is BIG." I believed it.
> And isn't it a trip to see Denver again, after all these years?
> Angel's rather flippant (well, by Angel standards) account of the
> events of AYNOHYEB is pretty funny, but also sets the tone for his next
> step into indifference. Of course, poor Denver was doomed the moment
> he said "you happen to be looking at the one guy who can tell you
> how," but at least he got his message out before dying. Darla's as
> strong a villain as ever here.
>
> One of the perils of writing reviews is that one starts to compose
> thoughts in advance while actually watching the episode. The scene
> between Wesley and Virginia after the former's run-in with our hero
> had me going through a few mental versions of this paragraph. My
> original thought was to praise it for actually making decent use of
> Virginia, and for "guns? Kind of makes it all a little too real, you
> know?" "The gun was fired by a zombie, if it makes you feel any
> thoughts about it falling apart into cheese with her stupid monologue
> into his chest. And then I got caught of guard by his realization that
> she wants to break up. Okay, it all had a point.
>
> I found oddly affecting. A simple, lonely moment. Kral does some
> very good work with the music all throughout the show this week, and
> that's the most notable example for me.
>
> And speaking of affecting, I've mentioned before that I think
> Elisabeth Rohm has generally done better with the subtle stuff than
> with the big emotions. We can't follow that rule anymore. The
> events of the previous episode end up being a direct catalyst/excuse
> for her "irrational" behavior of the last half-year to catch up
> with her. Kate's one of those characters I find myself always
> pulling for to come through as a heroic do-gooder type, but the
> circumstances are convincingly against her here. Her control is
> visibly slipping just a little more in every scene; I hated, in a good
> way, to hear those little catches in her voice during the hearing as
> she gives up... anyone else want to punch the guy who says "I'm just
> glad your father's not around to see this?" It finally explodes with
> the bottle-smashing thing, a bit of sweeping melodrama that works
> because the groundwork has been laid to let it work. As always, TV
> character drinking alone = bad news. And jumping ahead again, her
> suicide, or suicide attempt (we don't see her afterward) is a punch
> to the gut. Ow.
>
> The staging during the confrontation atop W&H seems off to me. Don't
> people know Angel at this point? Why does everyone just stare as
> he's standing there, and pushes Lilah away? And why does he walk
> into the hall and then come back in ("noooobody expects the Angel
> Inquisiton!")? Lindsey punching Lilah in the face is the kind of
> thing that, if I know Wolfram And Hart, I'd guess will be put aside
> for now and not dredged up again until much later, if at all.
> They're professionals, you know.
>
> Angel's ready to put an end to everything, give us a big
> confrontation. The episode lays a false trail, for the character more
> than for the viewer, into thinking that this'll be the climax of the
> series. Instead there's a little elevator ride and it turns out to
> just be the beginning. After seeing Anderson in the credits, I figured
> that the demon they were calling would wear his skin - this works
> too. Holland's opus of exposition has some good visuals and moments,
> but on the whole, I'm not feeling it.
--Still catching up on reviews, moi.
You amaze me here, AOQ. I thought the elevator scene with Holland
Manners was one of the most brilliant and fascinating things I had ever
seen. It's still one of my favorite AtS scenes of all time. And along
with everything else in the episode, the elevator scene makes Reprise
one of the great AtS episodes of all time; certainly the greatest AtS
episode of seasons 1 and 2.
I was just barely starting to read the Angel NG at that time, but I
seem to remember that the elevator scene was widely admired and that
Reprise was received as a great favorite at the time it first aired.
Anybody else here remember their first impression of Reprise, and the
feeling of excitement about AtS that people were feeling in spring
2001? I do.
If any AtS episode ever deserved an "Excellent," it's certainly
Reprise.
Clairel
Chris Davis
happened to be reviewed, I thought I'd add it here. :-)
It's just a quickie: why aren't Julie Benz or Elizabeth Rohm credited at
the start of this episode? I only noticed it for the first time last night.
Anyone know?
Cheers a million,
Chris.
<reld...@usa.net> wrote in message
news:1153168345.9...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Chris Davis" <bleache...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Coincidentally, I had a question about this episode, and seeing as it just
> happened to be reviewed, I thought I'd add it here. :-)
>
> It's just a quickie: why aren't Julie Benz or Elizabeth Rohm credited at
> the start of this episode? I only noticed it for the first time last night.
> Anyone know?
they sometimes do that as a surprise when the character shows up
Arbitrar Of Quality
> "Chris Davis" <bleache...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> > Coincidentally, I had a question about this episode, and seeing as it just
> > happened to be reviewed, I thought I'd add it here. :-)
> >
> > It's just a quickie: why aren't Julie Benz or Elizabeth Rohm credited at
> > the start of this episode? I only noticed it for the first time last night.
> > Anyone know?
>
> they sometimes do that as a surprise when the character shows up
So far, that's only been when a character appeared only at the very
end; keeping it secret would substantially enhance the experience for a
rist-time viewer (and someone following the promotional materials).
The actor is then usually billed as a "Special Guest Star" in the end
credits. That isn't the case here.
Let me mention that I'm a big fan of that custom; "To Shanshu" and "The
Trial" were actually better episodes than they would have been had Benz
and Landau respectively been billed at the beginning.
I'm pretty sure I remember Rohm and Benz both being listed in their
usual spot in "Reprise," but I'd have to check my DVDs to be sure.
Sometimes there are pauses in the "guest starring" credits as befits
the rhythm of the scene they're playing over, so they may have ended up
separate from everyone else.
-AOQ
Chris Davis
double-checked to be sure. I'll have another look later to triple-check,
but for now I'm still mystified (I mean, Detective Lockley?? - Come on!).
;-/
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1153184950.0...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...