AOQ Review 5-17: "Forever"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Five, Episode 17: "Forever"
(or "I've been dead for a week, but this record offer is so
incredible I had to come back to tell you about it!")
Writer: Marti Noxon
Director: Marti Noxon
The opening sequence is deliberately shot to look like a dream, I
guess, but it's mostly there in the end to move us into Buffy trying
to run her family's life. No matter how much one sympathizes with
Buffy, it's hard not to get annoyed on Dawn's behalf at her sister
constantly trying to push her away and "shelter" her. Just to be
clear, that's not really a complaint about the show (as long was we
don't see that same basic scene too often) so much as a statement
about a flaw in a character who hasn't been having the best of
years.
Buffy and Xander and the others exhaustedly working over the nuances of
the funeral programs is actually one of my favorite moments of the
episode. These bonds that were formed while our heroes were
high-school kids with few concerns beyond getting laid and fighting
metaphors now lead them to support each other as they try their best to
learn to be grown-ups together.
Thrown in near the beginning is a scene between Ben and Jinx, and a
typically irritating Glory followup later (I always have to turn the
volume down about five clicks whenever she speaks, or else I'd go
crazy. The half-assed flattery is okay, though). Man-Nurse and his
actor, Charlie Weber, just went down several notches in my estimation.
He comes off like a moron here with his tongue-slip and subsequently
calling attention to it. And then when he seems to be getting more
interesting and tries to kill for the greater good, it doesn't occur
to him to make sure to get it right. And could Weber's delivery
possibly be less convincing on "do you understand what's going to
happen if she finds the key? How many people are going to die?"
I'd thought about Hank, but it hadn't occurred to me to give Angel
a cameo, probably because he's had a little bit of other stuff going
on lately. (I'll talk a little about trying to piece together the
inter-series chronology in the "Disharmony" review.) But if
you're him, don't you pretty much have to at least put in an
appearance? I like these scenes for what they are. The fact that they
can't keep their mouths off each other is unfortunate, since it seems
like both characters could benefit from a more mature friendship than
they had in their past interactions. But thanks to that past, as a
wise vampire once pointed out, they can never be friends.
Said vampire doesn't get much love from his intermittent allies in
the Slaypack, huh? Nor does he deserve any, really. It makes sense
that he's still able to appeal to Dawn, though. This still seems
like some sort of elaborate play for Buffy, or possibly he wants to use
Dawn for something, because his stated reasons for caring don't
check. "She never treated me like a freak." Fine, except that
until very recently, Spike has almost always regarded being treated
like a normal person to be a grave insult. I suppose "Lovers Walk"
could be the exception, and a source of warm fuzzy feelings, but I
don't think I buy it, so I hope there's something more.
Dumb but fun: The show teasing/worrying us (and Xander) with Anya
getting obsessed with birth. Odd throwaway: Giles and his old-school
record player, and a song that has certain memories associated with
it... interesting that he'd want to dredge those up...
The episode's really about Dawn and her acceptance, or lack thereof.
In fact, come to think of it, the Slayer pretty much disappears for a
good portion of the action to give Trachtenberg another vehicle, her
third of the year. Once she gets obsessed with bringing Joyce back,
the episode gets bogged down some. She comes off as rather stupid
here, and I say that even trying to allow for her youth and the fact
that we viewers know how the Buffyverse works better than she does.
Anyway, we'd know that a resurrection spell performed by an untrained
kid can't work out too well even if the show didn't find it
necessary to throw in about ten warnings to that effect. Sticking
with the usual patterns, Willow gets distracted from the moral issues
by the practicalities while Tara sticks to the greater issues while
trying not to talk in clichés, and doesn't get through.
And even when things feel right from a character standpoint, which they
mostly do, competence can't disguise the fact that it's a
by-the-numbers story. Dawn gets sad, gets obsessed with doing
something wrong and slowly carries it out. The Magic Shop scenes have
their share of idiot plotting, as I'd expect Dawn's sudden interest
in forbidden tomes to get Giles's attention. At least Anya's in
that part, though, and it's hard to go wrong with that. "I am
unthreatened. Proceed." "Hello, customer!" The one thing that
did surprise me was Willow's help, both the fact and quiet manner of
it. Maybe it shouldn't have been such a surprise, knowing her. Ah,
Wil, you do disappoint me sometimes. The later scene in which Tara
discovers the missing book is, to make a long complaint short, scripted
very badly.
That brings us to meeting up with a new and possibly recurring
character, Doc. What we know so far is that he has a tail and knows
stuff. And hums songs from _Peter And The Wolf_. Also he's mastered
the kindly old man mannerisms to the point where one can almost believe
it, but then has that creepy way in which he looks into Dawn's
eyes... I wouldn't mind seeing him again.
My main thought during the egg theft is that since this demon is more
animal-like than most, stealing its eggs and killing it without
provocation strikes me as a bad thing to do, on the level of attacking
an endangered species of bird or something. Spike gets banged up some,
but there's not a whole lot of suspense involved. I like "well,
what do you know. Bitty Buffy."
The last tearful confrontation between Buffy and Dawn is one of those
microcosm scenes for me, embodying the strengths and weaknesses of
"Forever." It's the most prominent example of a scene that sorta
works because of the ideas but is hampered by the details. In this
case it's simple; the sentiments are right and the actors'
nonverbal language is quite good, but the dialogue itself, both in
scripting and in delivery, can't entirely carry the weight. It's
the moral conversion moment, in which Dawn has to start to believe that
the others are doing the right thing. She lashes out past several
layers of reassurance until Buffy finally "proves" herself by
letting down for a moment. Buffy hitting her is timed well. But the
word choices, and the delivery of that dialogue... not the show's
best. "Of. Course. I. Care. How. Can. You. Even. Think.
That?" 'Nuff said. The end of the sequence is well composed, with
the shadowed figure outside setting the flavor of the moment, and Dawn
redeeming herself by seeing what has to be done and being the one to
make the adult choice. I'm in favor of the decision to never
actually show Joyce; since the particulars of what this creature is
like are irrelevant to the real point of the episode, let it stay in
everyone's imagination.
So...
One-sentence summary: The devil's in the details.
AOQ rating: Decent
[Season Five so far:
1) "Buffy Vs. Dracula" - Good
2) "Real Me" - Decent
3) "The Replacement" - Good
4) "Out Of My Mind" - Weak
5) "No Place Like Home" - Decent
6) "Family" - Excellent
7) "Fool For Love" - Excellent
8) "Shadow" - Good
9) "Listening To Fear" - Decent
10) "Into The Woods" - Good
11) "Triangle" - Decent
12) "Checkpoint" - Decent
13) "Blood Ties" - Good
14) "Crush" - Excellent
15) "I Was Made To Love You" - Weak
16) "The Body" - Good
17) "Forever" - Decent]
lili...@gmail.com
Hmm, I have to say that this is one of my favorite s5 eps, well aside
of that moment with Angel but that's just my utter disgust of the B/A
pairing talking.
It's the ep that really got me to care over Joyce's death, in huge part
because Spike tends to make me care for things. I empathize most with
Spike, so when he's hurting I'm hurting.
I don't find the idea of him caring over Joyce all that weird,
remember, most of the Spike persona is a mask, an attempt at hiding
that really, he's a sentimental old fool, with a pshychotic demon side,
but hey, we all have our bad sides*eg*.
Notice that he keeps protesting being called safe, how he keeps
fighting for his big bad image? Its because it's all he has left. If
he admits he's no longer the big bad, then what is he? Just a sad
remnant of the vampire he once was. None of the scoobies take him
serious, the demons in town see him as either a traitor or a joke. And
all he has left is his old reputation.
But that doesn't stop that inside, he does want to be part of the
scoobies, he does want to be treated like a person, even if he won't
always admit to it.
Like the cool kid on the school yard, who rather pretends he's too cool
to be with anyone, than to admit he's scared that no one'd want him if
he did try to connect.
Joyce saw through that pretense and treated him like a person. And
Spike loved her for that. Just like he loves her daughter for that. And
of course there's the Buffy involvement*g*. Because of her, Joyce and
Dawn aren't just happy meals on legs, they're people, or at least
they're pets, so what happens to them matters more than would happen to
the random human/meal.
Gur fnzr guvat pna or abgvprq yngre va gur frnfba svanyr, Fcvxr fnlvat:
"Lbh gerng zr yvxr n zna naq gung'f..."
Juvpu fgnaqf va rkgerzr pbagenfg jvgu Natryhf fgngrzrag va Vaabprapr:
Natryhf: Fur znqr zr srry yvxr n uhzna orvat. Gung'f abg gur xvaq bs
guvat lbh whfg sbetvir.
Lore
Elisi
> Said vampire doesn't get much love from his intermittent allies in
> the Slaypack, huh? Nor does he deserve any, really. It makes sense
> that he's still able to appeal to Dawn, though. This still seems
> like some sort of elaborate play for Buffy, or possibly he wants to use
> Dawn for something, because his stated reasons for caring don't
> check. "She never treated me like a freak." Fine, except that
> until very recently, Spike has almost always regarded being treated
> like a normal person to be a grave insult. I suppose "Lovers Walk"
> could be the exception, and a source of warm fuzzy feelings, but I
> don't think I buy it, so I hope there's something more.
Re. Spike then I agree with Lore's comment - well mostly. I don't think
it was a matter of 'seeing through the pretense' as such. The only time
Joyce ever met Spike in a hostile way was when she hit him over the
head with an axe in 'School Hard' (and I think he was secretly rather
impressed with that, and therefore had a soft spot for her).
In 'Becoming' he's working with Buffy and she invites him in, in
'Lovers Walk' he pours out his heartache and drinks hot chocolate, and
Joyce get very confused as to who is the 'good' vampire and who's the
'bad' one. We don't see them interact again until 'Checkpoint' when
they bond over 'Passions'. By 'Crush' he is sat in her kitchen chatting
- as though he belongs there. So I think in Joyce's mind he became the
'harmless, charming little vampire' (note how Spike told Warren that
'his mom had let him in' - Spike is quite capable of turning up the
charm). And considering how lonely he was, I'm not surprised if he
liked to stop by to have a chat with Joyce now and again, since she was
probably the only person in the world who was nice to him.
So I think the flowers were for Joyce because he liked her, not to
somehow earn any brownie points with Buffy. Also this follows 'Crush'
and IWMTLY - Buffy and the gang have made pretty clear that they will
not tolerate him _at all_. Even Dawn told him so. And I'm sure that if
he'd tried to talk to Joyce she'd have told him to go away too.
Basically I don't see anything in the scene that says that he's lying.
(The whole 'helping Dawn' is a different matter, and I can't be
bothered to address that.)
Blame it on bad writing if you like - my husband and I actually caught
the last 15 minutes of this on tv today, and my husband was groaning
loudly during the Willow/Tara talk and also the last scene. (Doc is
wonderfully creepy though!) Speaking of the last scene, husband thought
that instead of 'Joyce' vanishing completely, her shoes should have
been left on the door step with smoke coming out...
vague disclaimer
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Speaking of the last scene, husband thought
> that instead of 'Joyce' vanishing completely, her shoes should have
> been left on the door step with smoke coming out...
Hee. Please tell me your husband isn't a TV writer ;-)
--
Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
George W Harris
<tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
:That brings us to meeting up with a new and possibly recurring
:character, Doc. What we know so far is that he has a tail and knows
:stuff. And hums songs from _Peter And The Wolf_. Also he's mastered
:the kindly old man mannerisms to the point where one can almost believe
:it, but then has that creepy way in which he looks into Dawn's
:eyes... I wouldn't mind seeing him again.
The actor who played Doc, Joel Grey, is best
known for the role of Master of Ceremonies, both on
Broadway and in the film, for which he won a Tony
and an Oscar. He's also had a rather prolific film and
television career, but is best known for his work in
musical theater. His daughter, Jennifer Grey, was the
star of "Dirty Dancing".
He also played a demon on the final episode of
"Dallas".
--
"It is always a simple matter to drag people along whether it is a
democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist
dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the
bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them
they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of
patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every
country."
-Hermann Goering
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.
Elisi
vague disclaimer wrote:
> In article <1152291193.8...@s16g2000cws.googlegroups.com>,
> "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Speaking of the last scene, husband thought
> > that instead of 'Joyce' vanishing completely, her shoes should have
> > been left on the door step with smoke coming out...
>
> Hee. Please tell me your husband isn't a TV writer ;-)
Nope. But he does want to get into film making! :)
One Bit Shy
news:oi7ta2p7ps2kuu1j9...@4ax.com...
> On 7 Jul 2006 07:42:38 -0700, "Arbitrar Of Quality"
> <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> :That brings us to meeting up with a new and possibly recurring
> :character, Doc. What we know so far is that he has a tail and knows
> :stuff. And hums songs from _Peter And The Wolf_. Also he's mastered
> :the kindly old man mannerisms to the point where one can almost believe
> :it, but then has that creepy way in which he looks into Dawn's
> :eyes... I wouldn't mind seeing him again.
>
> The actor who played Doc, Joel Grey, is best
> known for the role of Master of Ceremonies, both on
> Broadway and in the film, for which he won a Tony
> and an Oscar. He's also had a rather prolific film and
> television career, but is best known for his work in
> musical theater. His daughter, Jennifer Grey, was the
> star of "Dirty Dancing".
>
> He also played a demon on the final episode of
> "Dallas".
Damn. I never noticed that was Joel Grey. (I really must pay more
attention to the credits!) That's fascinating. No wonder he's so good.
OBS
Opus the Penguin
Wow. I remember seeing his name and waiting and waiting for him to
appear.
--
Opus the Penguin
The best darn penguin in all of Usenet
Don Sample
> Re. Spike then I agree with Lore's comment - well mostly. I don't think
> it was a matter of 'seeing through the pretense' as such. The only time
> Joyce ever met Spike in a hostile way was when she hit him over the
> head with an axe in 'School Hard' (and I think he was secretly rather
> impressed with that, and therefore had a soft spot for her).
First time they met, and he got all the way to third base with her.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
One Bit Shy
news:1152283358.4...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Five, Episode 17: "Forever"
> Thrown in near the beginning is a scene between Ben and Jinx, and a
> typically irritating Glory followup later (I always have to turn the
> volume down about five clicks whenever she speaks, or else I'd go
> crazy. The half-assed flattery is okay, though).
Be that as it may, it's still mighty big news that Glory received.
> I'd thought about Hank, but it hadn't occurred to me to give Angel
> a cameo, probably because he's had a little bit of other stuff going
> on lately.
Ugh. I hate this scene. First time I saw this episode my reaction was,
Christ! Not the lame old boyfriend again. My attitude has not improved.
> Said vampire doesn't get much love from his intermittent allies in
> the Slaypack, huh? Nor does he deserve any, really. It makes sense
> that he's still able to appeal to Dawn, though. This still seems
> like some sort of elaborate play for Buffy, or possibly he wants to use
> Dawn for something, because his stated reasons for caring don't
> check. "She never treated me like a freak." Fine, except that
> until very recently, Spike has almost always regarded being treated
> like a normal person to be a grave insult. I suppose "Lovers Walk"
> could be the exception, and a source of warm fuzzy feelings, but I
> don't think I buy it, so I hope there's something more.
When has he regarded the way Joyce has treated him as an insult? The "I'm
bad" boast and bluster has been for the Scoobie's benefit. Not Joyce. I
think the flowers for Joyce was just what he said it was.
Bonding with Dawn again is more interesting. He surely *doesn't* want Buffy
to know how he helped Dawn. But it still could advance his aim of getting
close to Buffy by first getting close to her sister. On the other hand,
there may be some real concern over Dawn's well being in attempting a spell
she clearly isn't up to. Getting a better spell isn't exactly the best
solution to that, but it is in line with his prior attitude that Dawn will
find a way to do what she wants no matter what. At least Spike brought her
to a professional with a chance of getting it right. I think, though, that
the time spent with her - especially fighting the monster - may be more
important, and not by design. Spike seems unable not to like Dawn for
herself. And in protetcting her he may have found some Buffy related
purpose again. Not just in the sense of impressing Buffy, but in the sense
of himself feeling somehow closer to her. There's some satisfaction in
knowing he's helping Buffy even though she doesn't know about it. He gets
to feel all noble and manly.
> Dumb but fun: The show teasing/worrying us (and Xander) with Anya
> getting obsessed with birth.
Very intimately filmed too. All smooshed together. This may be just me.
But Anya's initial reference to Joyce being why the sex was intense was the
one moment in the show that the thought of Joyce's demise really creeped me
out.
> Sticking
> with the usual patterns, Willow gets distracted from the moral issues
> by the practicalities while Tara sticks to the greater issues while
> trying not to talk in clichés, and doesn't get through.
Willow isn't just distraced from the moral issues. She flat out doesn't see
it the same way Tara does - though she's afraid to let Tara know that. I
think Willow genuinely thinks it's too difficult and dangerous to do, but
doesn't have a problem with the idea of doing it. She's really more on
Dawn's side than Tara's side here - except for thinking it's not feasible.
Willow does get sloppy, however, pointing Dawn to a book meant to help Dawn
understand, forgetting that it has big honking clues on how to literally do
it. Willow sloppy with magic. Imagine that.
Anyway, this is the biggest disconnect we've seen between Tara and Willow to
date. They have different moral outlooks.
> That brings us to meeting up with a new and possibly recurring
> character, Doc. What we know so far is that he has a tail and knows
> stuff. And hums songs from _Peter And The Wolf_. Also he's mastered
> the kindly old man mannerisms to the point where one can almost believe
> it, but then has that creepy way in which he looks into Dawn's
> eyes... I wouldn't mind seeing him again.
Nice character.
> But the
> word choices, and the delivery of that dialogue... not the show's
> best.
I agree that the dialogue is clunky. But some of it works for me.
Especially the part about Buffy not knowing what to do. Buffy knows she has
to be mom now, and none of her slayer strength has prepared her for that.
> So...
> One-sentence summary: The devil's in the details.
> AOQ rating: Decent
I mentioned in the last review what an unenviable slot this episode has.
This one turns out not to be an especially good episode in itself, though it
does have some good stuff - or at least interesting, important stuff. But
that almost doesn't matter. I feel like it's doomed to be a drag.
Most stories about dealing with death focus on coping afterwards. Maybe
mixed with some memories of life if that's part of the coping. And they're
invariably sad, though hopefully poignant. BtVS, however, had to go consume
an entire episode just getting the body to the morgue. So it's stuck with a
full double dose of death sad. And that second spoonful is invariably hard
to take.
It is for me anyway. I'll always remember this episode for Spike and the
flowers - which I like. Otherwise it's a memory I mostly repress. I'll
rate it a Decent for effort and some valuable moments. But I believe this
ends up as the bottom show of the season for me.
OBS
lili...@gmail.com
One Bit Shy wrote:
>
> > Sticking
> > with the usual patterns, Willow gets distracted from the moral issues
> > by the practicalities while Tara sticks to the greater issues while
> > trying not to talk in clichés, and doesn't get through.
>
> Willow isn't just distraced from the moral issues. She flat out doesn't see
> it the same way Tara does - though she's afraid to let Tara know that. I
> think Willow genuinely thinks it's too difficult and dangerous to do, but
> doesn't have a problem with the idea of doing it. She's really more on
> Dawn's side than Tara's side here - except for thinking it's not feasible.
> Willow does get sloppy, however, pointing Dawn to a book meant to help Dawn
> understand, forgetting that it has big honking clues on how to literally do
> it. Willow sloppy with magic. Imagine that.
>
I think that a big part of Willow's problem is that she looks at magic
from a scientific angle where as Tara sees magic as something
spiritual.
For Willow, magic is something with rules that can be bended and
adapted, something with results and ingredients. She sees it in a way
of formulas and reactions..
It's partly why she's stronger than Tara, because she doesn't stay
inside the box, but it makes for moral issues, because she doesn't get
why you don't do certain things. She doesn't get why if you can do
something, why it shouldn't be done. To her it's more of a case where
the only reason you don't do something is when it's dangerous and
either doesn't work or have the wrong effects. She doesn't completely
understand that sometimes it's wrong to do something, no matter the
positive result, simply because it's wrong to do it.
It's the scientists philosophy, and it's not entirely bad. If people
hadn't broken some guidelines in the past that were believed to be
moral and correct, then we wouldn't have some of the scientific
advances that we have today.
Lore
I
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> to know how he helped Dawn. But it still could advance his aim of getting
> close to Buffy by first getting close to her sister. On the other hand,
> there may be some real concern over Dawn's well being in attempting a spell
> she clearly isn't up to. Getting a better spell isn't exactly the best
> solution to that, but it is in line with his prior attitude that Dawn will
spike may want joyce back for his own sake
he doesnt have the same morality and outlook as a human
he can understand buffy would not approve
but possibly not understand why she would not approve
> > Dumb but fun: The show teasing/worrying us (and Xander) with Anya
> > getting obsessed with birth.
>
> Very intimately filmed too. All smooshed together. This may be just me.
> But Anya's initial reference to Joyce being why the sex was intense was the
> one moment in the show that the thought of Joyce's demise really creeped me
> out.
denying the abnegation of death
by clinging that much tighter to life
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Michael Ikeda
news:1152283358.4...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
> review threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Five, Episode 17: "Forever"
> (or "I've been dead for a week, but this record offer is so
> incredible I had to come back to tell you about it!")
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: Marti Noxon
>
> I'd thought about Hank, but it hadn't occurred to me to give
> Angel a cameo, probably because he's had a little bit of other
> stuff going on lately. (I'll talk a little about trying to
> piece together the inter-series chronology in the "Disharmony"
> review.) But if you're him, don't you pretty much have to at
> least put in an appearance? I like these scenes for what they
> are. The fact that they can't keep their mouths off each other
> is unfortunate, since it seems like both characters could
> benefit from a more mature friendship than they had in their
> past interactions.
Although at least this time they're wise enough to stop...
And speaking of that scene:
BUFFY: (shakes her head) I don't know. I keep thinking about it ...
when I found her. If I had just gotten there ten minutes earlier...
ANGEL: You said they told you it wouldn't have made a difference.
BUFFY: They said ... "probably" ... wouldn't have made a difference.
The exact thing they said ... was "probably." I haven't told that to
anyone.
ANGEL: Doesn't make it your fault. You couldn't have done anything
different.
Ten minutes. Perhaps about the length of time she spent sitting with
April?
(Angel's right, of course, but that isn't going to make Buffy feel
much better.)
> Said vampire doesn't get much love from his intermittent allies
> in the Slaypack, huh? Nor does he deserve any, really. It
> makes sense that he's still able to appeal to Dawn, though.
> This still seems like some sort of elaborate play for Buffy, or
> possibly he wants to use Dawn for something, because his stated
> reasons for caring don't check. "She never treated me like a
> freak." Fine, except that until very recently, Spike has almost
> always regarded being treated like a normal person to be a grave
> insult. I suppose "Lovers Walk" could be the exception, and a
> source of warm fuzzy feelings, but I don't think I buy it, so I
> hope there's something more.
Spike and Joyce have gotten along well, the few times we've seen them
interact. I see no reason to doubt his statement that he genuinely
liked her.
As far as Dawn is concerned, Spike feels protective of her and
doesn't want to see her get hurt. At least with him along he can
fend off any monsters and point her in the direction of someone with
actual knowledge.
> The one thing that did surprise me was Willow's help, both the
> fact and quiet manner of it. Maybe it shouldn't have been such
> a surprise, knowing her. Ah, Wil, you do disappoint me
> sometimes.
Although I think Willow ended up giving a lot more help than she
intended. I don't think Willow realized when she directed Dawn's
attention that the book could tell Dawn where to find an actual
resurrection spell.
>The later scene in which Tara discovers the missing
> book is, to make a long complaint short, scripted very badly.
I liked the scene. Willow-babble mixed with Tara's seriousness.
And speaking of scenes I like. A fun little exchange between Willow
and Xander as they're leaving Buffy's house:
WILLOW: I'm gonna stop by my mom's first. Been doing that a lot
lately.
XANDER: Yeah. I actually might stop by your mom's too. (she looks at
him) Well, I'm not going to *my* place. Those people are scary.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Don Sample
Michael Ikeda <mmi...@erols.com> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
> news:1152283358.4...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
> And speaking of that scene:
>
> BUFFY: (shakes her head) I don't know. I keep thinking about it ...
> when I found her. If I had just gotten there ten minutes earlier...
> ANGEL: You said they told you it wouldn't have made a difference.
> BUFFY: They said ... "probably" ... wouldn't have made a difference.
> The exact thing they said ... was "probably." I haven't told that to
> anyone.
> ANGEL: Doesn't make it your fault. You couldn't have done anything
> different.
>
> Ten minutes. Perhaps about the length of time she spent sitting with
> April?
The time spent with April would have been pretty much irrelevant. Buffy
has her whole conversation with Xander after that. Also, I'm pretty
sure that Buffy is wearing different clothes when she gets home to find
Joyce, so it likely wasn't even the same day.
William George Ferguson
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>
>
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Five, Episode 17: "Forever"
>(or "I've been dead for a week, but this record offer is so
>incredible I had to come back to tell you about it!")
>Writer: Marti Noxon
>Director: Marti Noxon
>
>The opening sequence is deliberately shot to look like a dream, I
>guess, but it's mostly there in the end to move us into Buffy trying
>to run her family's life. No matter how much one sympathizes with
>Buffy, it's hard not to get annoyed on Dawn's behalf at her sister
>constantly trying to push her away and "shelter" her. Just to be
>clear, that's not really a complaint about the show (as long was we
>don't see that same basic scene too often) so much as a statement
>about a flaw in a character who hasn't been having the best of
>years.
Dawn annoyed an awful lot of viewers during her first season 9and most of
them kept right on being annoyed by the same old things, even though the
same old things didn't keep happening). Me, I think I always understood
Dawn's point of view. Having an older sister who is a bonafide superhero,
who treats you alternately like dirt and like a a piece of expensive
dresden china, would drive anyone crazy.
>Buffy and Xander and the others exhaustedly working over the nuances of
>the funeral programs is actually one of my favorite moments of the
>episode. These bonds that were formed while our heroes were
>high-school kids with few concerns beyond getting laid and fighting
>metaphors now lead them to support each other as they try their best to
>learn to be grown-ups together.
And, of course, that is the symbology of Joyce's death. More than
anything else, it sets the passage from childhood to adulthood, whether
they are ready for it or not.
>Dumb but fun: The show teasing/worrying us (and Xander) with Anya
>getting obsessed with birth. Odd throwaway: Giles and his old-school
>record player, and a song that has certain memories associated with
>it... interesting that he'd want to dredge those up...
I thought it was perfect.
[snip the bulk of the commentary on the Dawn/resurrection plot]
As has been pointed out in the past by everyone and her sister, the 'A'
plot is basically "The Monkey's Paw".
>That brings us to meeting up with a new and possibly recurring
>character, Doc. What we know so far is that he has a tail and knows
>stuff. And hums songs from _Peter And The Wolf_. Also he's mastered
>the kindly old man mannerisms to the point where one can almost believe
>it, but then has that creepy way in which he looks into Dawn's
>eyes... I wouldn't mind seeing him again.
There is, of course, a reason why he won the Tony and the Oscar.
Not really funny, just true...
Willow: "I'm gonna stop by my mom's first. Been doing that a lot lately."
--
HERBERT
1996 - 1997
Beloved Mascot
Delightful Meal
He fed the Pack
A little
John Briggs
>
> The time spent with April would have been pretty much irrelevant.
> Buffy has her whole conversation with Xander after that. Also, I'm
> pretty sure that Buffy is wearing different clothes when she gets
> home to find Joyce, so it likely wasn't even the same day.
That's only because it was shot as part of episode 16, and later edited into
episode 15.
--
John Briggs
Michael Ikeda
news:dsample-E57B3F...@news.giganews.com:
(Palm to forehead)
I really must remember to read transcripts more carefully...
Don Sample
And given what she's been through in the past few months, some of us
figure she's entitled to a tantrum or two.
Let's see. She's
- been kidnapped, a couple of times
- been abandoned by her father
- gone through her mother's near death
- learned she was adopted
- found out that there's a hellgod out there that probably
wants to kill her
- had her mother die
And the season is only 2/3 over. Most people would be hiding under
their beds after going through even half of that.
Don Sample
"John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
Still, if they meant it to be the same day, they would have kept her in
the same clothes she was wearing when she was talking with Xander.
John Briggs
> In article <IUBrg.18948$v4....@newsfe3-win.ntli.net>,
> "John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>> Don Sample wrote:
>>>
>>> The time spent with April would have been pretty much irrelevant.
>>> Buffy has her whole conversation with Xander after that. Also, I'm
>>> pretty sure that Buffy is wearing different clothes when she gets
>>> home to find Joyce, so it likely wasn't even the same day.
>>
>> That's only because it was shot as part of episode 16, and later
>> edited into episode 15.
>
> Still, if they meant it to be the same day, they would have kept her
> in the same clothes she was wearing when she was talking with Xander.
That's if they meant it to be the same day when they shot it, rather than
the same day when they edited it.
--
John Briggs
Don Sample
"John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
Everything is different about that final scene. Buffy's clothes, the
lighting, everything. The scene with Xander is pretty dimly lit, like a
lot of Buffy, indicating it was evening, or an overcast day. We also
have Spike placing his order with Warren, which is something that
probably happened after sunset.
Buffy arrival at home is brightly lit, looking like bright sunshine.
Clearly not the same day. (The Body is the most brightly lit episode of
Buffy ever.)
One Bit Shy
news:1152306467.0...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> I think that a big part of Willow's problem is that she looks at magic
> from a scientific angle where as Tara sees magic as something
> spiritual.
> For Willow, magic is something with rules that can be bended and
> adapted, something with results and ingredients. She sees it in a way
> of formulas and reactions..
Yes, I agree. They have a completely different foundation of knowledge.
Related to that is that Willow is essentially self taught. She's seriously
lacking in guidance from experience. Giles warns her about things
sometimes, but he's not her teacher.
And last, even though Willow has made some big goofs, she hasn't really
suffered serious consequences. Her experience is telling her that even when
something goes wrong - it can be fixed.
OBS
Apteryx
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
>
> typically irritating Glory followup later (I always have to turn the
> volume down about five clicks whenever she speaks, or else I'd go
> crazy. The half-assed flattery is okay, though). Man-Nurse and his
> actor, Charlie Weber, just went down several notches in my estimation.
> He comes off like a moron here with his tongue-slip and subsequently
> calling attention to it. And then when he seems to be getting more
> interesting and tries to kill for the greater good, it doesn't occur
> to him to make sure to get it right.
The slip of the tongue is less of an issue for me - that happens. But
the fact that after deciding he needs to kill Jinx to save the world he
doesn't make sure he's dead is a problem.
> I'd thought about Hank, but it hadn't occurred to me to give Angel
> a cameo, probably because he's had a little bit of other stuff going
> on lately.
Yes. Odd that.
>
> Dumb but fun: The show teasing/worrying us (and Xander) with Anya
> getting obsessed with birth. Odd throwaway: Giles and his old-school
> record player, and a song that has certain memories associated with
> it... interesting that he'd want to dredge those up...
Not unrealistic though - a good scene that.
> The episode's really about Dawn and her acceptance, or lack thereof.
> In fact, come to think of it, the Slayer pretty much disappears for a
> good portion of the action to give Trachtenberg another vehicle, her
> third of the year. Once she gets obsessed with bringing Joyce back,
> the episode gets bogged down some.
And then some more...
> And even when things feel right from a character standpoint, which they
> mostly do, competence can't disguise the fact that it's a
> by-the-numbers story. Dawn gets sad, gets obsessed with doing
> something wrong and slowly carries it out. The Magic Shop scenes have
> their share of idiot plotting, as I'd expect Dawn's sudden interest
> in forbidden tomes to get Giles's attention. At least Anya's in
> that part, though, and it's hard to go wrong with that. "I am
> unthreatened. Proceed." "Hello, customer!" The one thing that
> did surprise me was Willow's help, both the fact and quiet manner of
> it. Maybe it shouldn't have been such a surprise, knowing her. Ah,
> Wil, you do disappoint me sometimes.
Mm, serious lack of moral fibre there.
> make the adult choice. I'm in favor of the decision to never
> actually show Joyce; since the particulars of what this creature is
> like are irrelevant to the real point of the episode, let it stay in
> everyone's imagination.
Definitely. But Dawn's change of mind so complete as to do that so
close to finding if it worked still seems odd.
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: The devil's in the details.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
This episode has benefited more than any other from the fact that I am
(for the first time) watching all episodes of BtVS alternately with
AtS. Simply because that puts another episode between The Body and
this. Previously I had always watched it straight after The Body, and
after the clear finality of Joyce's death there, I was just disgusted
with the ridiculous spell and the (apparently) zombie Joyce. I always
rated it in or near the Bottom 10 BtVS epsisodes. But with the benefit
of the (fairly weak) AtS episode Epiphany in between them, I can more
easily set to one side the crassness of those elements, and appreciate
the fact that there is plenty of other stuff to like in this episode -
one of which for me is Glory and Jinx - "I'm even gonna let you slide
on the lame toadying on account of your dying and stuff" and Jinx's
reaction. And her reason for wanting to "get him fixed".
My rating for it has increased by more than half a point, but is still
only at a level I'd translate as Weak. Probably if I gave it a
completely independent rating based on my impression on this latest
viewing alone, it would creep into Decent territory, but after rating
it much lower previously I'd need to see it again to confirm that it is
at that level. Currently its my 129th favourite BtVS episode, 18th best
in season 5
Apteryx
George W Harris
<gha...@mundsprung.com> wrote:
:On 7 Jul 2006 07:42:38 -0700, "Arbitrar Of Quality"
:<tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
:
::That brings us to meeting up with a new and possibly recurring
::character, Doc. What we know so far is that he has a tail and knows
::stuff. And hums songs from _Peter And The Wolf_. Also he's mastered
::the kindly old man mannerisms to the point where one can almost believe
::it, but then has that creepy way in which he looks into Dawn's
::eyes... I wouldn't mind seeing him again.
:
: The actor who played Doc, Joel Grey, is best
:known for the role of Master of Ceremonies
in "Cabaret"
, both on
:Broadway and in the film, for which he won a Tony
:and an Oscar. He's also had a rather prolific film and
:television career, but is best known for his work in
:musical theater. His daughter, Jennifer Grey, was the
:star of "Dirty Dancing".
:
: He also played a demon on the final episode of
:"Dallas".
Stupid editing.
--
They say there's air in your lungs that's been there for years.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> threads.
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Five, Episode 17: "Forever"
> (or "I've been dead for a week, but this record offer is so
> incredible I had to come back to tell you about it!")
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: Marti Noxon
OBS was certainly right to say that Forever has the least enviable spot in
the entire series. ME was wise to make this a fairly ordinary episode,
since nothing special would have much effect coming right after The Body.
But I'm glad they were willing to make another episode about the
short-term effects of Joyce's death, instead of playing it safe and
veering off into subject matter totally unrelated to The Body. Joyce's
death was much too big a deal for our title character to be pushed into
the background so quickly. While Forever isn't one of the great episodes,
it's better than not looking at The Body's aftereffects at all.
> Buffy, it's hard not to get annoyed on Dawn's behalf at her sister
> constantly trying to push her away and "shelter" her.
Buffy herself admits in the last scene that she doesn't really know what
the hell she's doing. Head of the family is not a role she's ready for.
She's feeling her way based on a little instinct and a lot of guesswork;
and while her instincts are good when it comes to slaying, they leave a
lot to be desired in the realm of personal relationships.
> Buffy and Xander and the others exhaustedly working over the nuances of
> the funeral programs is actually one of my favorite moments of the
> episode. These bonds that were formed while our heroes were
> high-school kids with few concerns beyond getting laid and fighting
> metaphors now lead them to support each other as they try their best to
> learn to be grown-ups together.
Agreed. I also really like the bit between Willow and Xander about
visiting Willow's mom. For me, the bond among the core four has *always*
been the heart of the show. I really care about these people. It's
heartwarming when we see them pull together, and heartwrenching when they
pull apart.
> calling attention to it. And then when he seems to be getting more
> interesting and tries to kill for the greater good, it doesn't occur
> to him to make sure to get it right.
Agreed; but maybe those minions are harder to kill than Ben realizes?
Glory seemed pretty confident that Jinx could be fixed when he looked
pretty thoroughly dead.
> I'd thought about Hank, but it hadn't occurred to me to give Angel
> a cameo, probably because he's had a little bit of other stuff going
> on lately. (I'll talk a little about trying to piece together the
> inter-series chronology in the "Disharmony" review.) But if
> you're him, don't you pretty much have to at least put in an
> appearance?
Yup. And if you're Mutant Enemy, you pretty much have to bring Angel in.
If he didn't come to support Buffy at a time like this, then unless he had
a *really* good excuse (maybe being trapped in a demon dimension), then
the doomed love that was so important to the show for so many years would
start to look a little less serious.
> Said vampire doesn't get much love from his intermittent allies in
> the Slaypack, huh? Nor does he deserve any, really.
Now, I'm not one of your Spike-worshipping types. (I should create a
macro to insert that disclaimer whenever I say something good about
Spike.) But I actually think he was being sincere here. Well, his claim
that it "wasn't about Buffy" was a bit of a fib -- he's too obsessed with
her to ever put her entirely out of his thoughts. Maybe it was a
combination of the sympathy she showed him in Lover's Walk and his
obsession with her daughter that made Spike like Joyce. But what we've
seen indicates that he honestly did like her, for whatever reason, and
wasn't just trying to impress Buffy with a show of sympathy here. That
doesn't mean he's become a good guy though; his sympathy for human beings
doesn't seem to extend much beyond females surnamed Summers.
> Dumb but fun: The show teasing/worrying us (and Xander) with Anya
> getting obsessed with birth. Odd throwaway: Giles and his old-school
> record player, and a song that has certain memories associated with
> it... interesting that he'd want to dredge those up...
Giles may secretly cherish the memory of Band Candy. (I like that the
show always remembered Giles and Joyce's fling, even though it never
became a major plot element.) He must have had very strange and
conflicted feelings about Joyce. She was never his wife, but they were
(involuntary) partners in raising a daughter.
Not much to say about Dawn's magic use. I didn't like the way she found
the books she needed two seconds after getting to the loft. Was Forever
really so check-full that they had to save time on the book search? Spike
looks rather ominous when he says he'll help Dawn; just a misdirect?
> That brings us to meeting up with a new and possibly recurring
> character, Doc. What we know so far is that he has a tail and knows
> stuff. And hums songs from _Peter And The Wolf_. Also he's mastered
> the kindly old man mannerisms to the point where one can almost believe
> it, but then has that creepy way in which he looks into Dawn's
> eyes... I wouldn't mind seeing him again.
Note the black eyes. Given the creepy overtones Doc develops at the end
of his scene, you have to wonder about his motivations, and about the
incantation he gave Dawn. Was he deliberately giving her a spell whose
results would be less than joyful?
> The last tearful confrontation between Buffy and Dawn is one of those
> microcosm scenes for me, embodying the strengths and weaknesses of
> "Forever." It's the most prominent example of a scene that sorta
> works because of the ideas but is hampered by the details. In this
> case it's simple; the sentiments are right and the actors'
> nonverbal language is quite good, but the dialogue itself, both in
> scripting and in delivery, can't entirely carry the weight.
Agreed, though I think you found the dialogue a bit more disappointing
than I did. For me the most interesting moment is at the end -- not when
Dawn choses the right thing to do, but when Buffy stumbles. We realize
that she's been *so* close to unable to cope that when the temptation
presents itself, she drops right back to "Mommy?"
> One-sentence summary: The devil's in the details.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
Eh, Decent's about right.
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
Elisi
Don Sample wrote:
> In article <1152291193.8...@s16g2000cws.googlegroups.com>,
> "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Re. Spike then I agree with Lore's comment - well mostly. I don't think
> > it was a matter of 'seeing through the pretense' as such. The only time
> > Joyce ever met Spike in a hostile way was when she hit him over the
> > head with an axe in 'School Hard' (and I think he was secretly rather
> > impressed with that, and therefore had a soft spot for her).
>
> First time they met, and he got all the way to third base with her.
She was leading him on! No wonder he brought her flowers!
Elisi
> I think that a big part of Willow's problem is that she looks at magic
> from a scientific angle where as Tara sees magic as something
> spiritual.
> For Willow, magic is something with rules that can be bended and
> adapted, something with results and ingredients. She sees it in a way
> of formulas and reactions..
>
> It's partly why she's stronger than Tara, because she doesn't stay
> inside the box, but it makes for moral issues, because she doesn't get
> why you don't do certain things. She doesn't get why if you can do
> something, why it shouldn't be done. To her it's more of a case where
> the only reason you don't do something is when it's dangerous and
> either doesn't work or have the wrong effects. She doesn't completely
> understand that sometimes it's wrong to do something, no matter the
> positive result, simply because it's wrong to do it.
>
> It's the scientists philosophy, and it's not entirely bad. If people
> hadn't broken some guidelines in the past that were believed to be
> moral and correct, then we wouldn't have some of the scientific
> advances that we have today.
::nods:: And it's entirely in character for Willow. Little nerdy Willow
of S1, who'd never tell a lie in a million years, happily snuck her way
into any number of secret files without a worry in the world. It quite
simply doesn't register on her inner moral scale.
Wes <>
wrote:
>"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
>news:1152283358.4...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>> Said vampire doesn't get much love from his intermittent allies
>> in the Slaypack, huh? Nor does he deserve any, really. It
>> makes sense that he's still able to appeal to Dawn, though.
>> This still seems like some sort of elaborate play for Buffy, or
>> possibly he wants to use Dawn for something, because his stated
>> reasons for caring don't check. "She never treated me like a
>> freak." Fine, except that until very recently, Spike has almost
>> always regarded being treated like a normal person to be a grave
>> insult. I suppose "Lovers Walk" could be the exception, and a
>> source of warm fuzzy feelings, but I don't think I buy it, so I
>> hope there's something more.
>
>Spike and Joyce have gotten along well, the few times we've seen them
>interact. I see no reason to doubt his statement that he genuinely
>liked her.
>
I'm not in the "Spike has changed" camp but I agree.
There's no reason to think Spike couldn't get lonely for some kind of
interaction and enjoy time not spent alone.
Of the humans that Spike has resolved to spend time with, he seems to
have gotten along with Joyce and Dawn best. Actually he seems to have
gotten along with them better than anyone/anything since Harmony. And,
unless they were having sex, the time he spent with Harmony didn't
seem to be all that much fun for Spike.
Even so, I doubt he would bring flowers without all the time he's
recently spent trying to mimic human behavior.
Wes
Eric Hunter
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Five, Episode 17: "Forever"
> Odd throwaway: Giles and his old-school record player,
> and a song that has certain memories associated with
> it... interesting that he'd want to dredge those up...
We tend to think of Giles as the stuffy, tweedy,
emotionally isolated librarian, because that is the
way Buffy treated him for so long, but that is not
at all an accurate description of Rupert "Ripper"
Giles. That's as much a front as is Spike's "Big
Bad" act. Giles is a spell-caster, and a musician,
and a philosophical Romantic. The events of "Band
Candy" may have been magic/drug induced, but they
were significant for him, and "Tales of Brave
Ulysses" will always conjure memories of Joyce for
him, now. Not just memories of BC, but of all
their interactions. The music serves as a memory
trigger. When you lose someone close to you, things
which were associated with specific incidents tend
to become more generally associated with memories of
the person. I saw this scene as Giles holding his
own private wake for Joyce, and it worked beautifully
for me.
Eric.
--
vague disclaimer
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> Odd throwaway: Giles and his old-school
> record player, and a song that has certain memories associated with
> it... interesting that he'd want to dredge those up...
I've read this many times now and am still baffled by your word choices:
odd and dredge? What's odd and what's to dredge?
--
Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
John Briggs
Look. The teaser to "The Body" was not written as part of IWMTLY. Joss
wrote it as part of "The Body", without considering a precise relationship
with the timeframe of the previous episode. After Joss shot "The Body" he
edited the teaser to the end of IWMTLY, as an additional coda (so to speak).
You cannot use the details of lighting, clothing, etc to infer his
intention, as these were all settled before it became part of that episode.
You can only use its position in the episode to try and determine whether or
not Joss intended to suggest that it was the same day.
--
John Briggs
Rowan Hawthorn
> lili...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> I think that a big part of Willow's problem is that she looks at magic
>> from a scientific angle where as Tara sees magic as something
>> spiritual.
>> For Willow, magic is something with rules that can be bended and
>> adapted, something with results and ingredients. She sees it in a way
>> of formulas and reactions..
>>
>> It's partly why she's stronger than Tara, because she doesn't stay
>> inside the box, but it makes for moral issues, because she doesn't get
>> why you don't do certain things. She doesn't get why if you can do
>> something, why it shouldn't be done. To her it's more of a case where
>> the only reason you don't do something is when it's dangerous and
>> either doesn't work or have the wrong effects. She doesn't completely
>> understand that sometimes it's wrong to do something, no matter the
>> positive result, simply because it's wrong to do it.
>>
>> It's the scientists philosophy, and it's not entirely bad. If people
>> hadn't broken some guidelines in the past that were believed to be
>> moral and correct, then we wouldn't have some of the scientific
>> advances that we have today.
>
> ::nods:: And it's entirely in character for Willow. Little nerdy Willow
> of S1, who'd never tell a lie in a million years,
Except maybe to herself...
> happily snuck her way
> into any number of secret files without a worry in the world. It quite
> simply doesn't register on her inner moral scale.
>
Considering her mom's personality in "Gingerbread" (nothing really seems
"real" to her, everything - even her own daughter - is just an academic
exercise until Willow gets carried away and pushes a little too hard,)
and the fact that the Rosenbergs seem to spend more time away than home,
leaving Willow either alone or with Xander's parents (appropriate role
models, *NOT*,) it's really no wonder that Willow has moral/ethical
compass issues. What's *really* amazing is that she was able to
function and appear as well-adjusted as she did in the beginning, before
the stresses and abuse of her power took their toll...
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Elisi
> We tend to think of Giles as the stuffy, tweedy,
> emotionally isolated librarian, because that is the
> way Buffy treated him for so long, but that is not
> at all an accurate description of Rupert "Ripper"
> Giles. That's as much a front as is Spike's "Big
> Bad" act. Giles is a spell-caster, and a musician,
> and a philosophical Romantic.
I remember someone (quite possibly Joss) saying that essentially Spike
was who Giles used to be, and Giles was who Spike used to be. Which is
probably one reason they can't get along...
BTR1701
Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> And given what she's been through in the past few months, some of us
> figure she's entitled to a tantrum or two.
>
> Let's see. She's
>
> - been kidnapped, a couple of times
> - been abandoned by her father
> - gone through her mother's near death
> - learned she was adopted
> - found out that there's a hellgod out there that probably
> wants to kill her
> - had her mother die
>
> And the season is only 2/3 over. Most people would be hiding under
> their beds after going through even half of that.
Dawn's in trouble again... must be Tuesday.
BTR1701
<john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> You cannot use the details of lighting, clothing, etc to infer his
> intention, as these were all settled before it became part of that
> episode.
You're right, you can't use them to infer his intention but the fact
remains that what's on screen is the story. If Buffy is in different
clothes and it's day time, then from a story perspective, a significant
amount of time has passed.
BTR1701
<O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> Very intimately filmed too. All smooshed together. This may be just me.
> But Anya's initial reference to Joyce being why the sex was intense was
> the one moment in the show that the thought of Joyce's demise really creeped
> me out.
The idea of intensely good sex in the midst of death is a common theme
in many shows and movies-- and in real life, too. It's an affirmation of
life. It's the one act that can create life and as such counters death.
I don't find that thought to be creepy at all.
BTR1701
lili...@gmail.com wrote:
> Willow doesn't get why if you can do
> something, why it shouldn't be done.
Next thing you know she'll be conjuring up velociraptors...
BTR1701
gha...@mundsprung.com wrote:
> On 7 Jul 2006 07:42:38 -0700, "Arbitrar Of Quality"
> <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> :That brings us to meeting up with a new and possibly recurring
> :character, Doc. What we know so far is that he has a tail and knows
> :stuff. And hums songs from _Peter And The Wolf_. Also he's mastered
> :the kindly old man mannerisms to the point where one can almost believe
> :it, but then has that creepy way in which he looks into Dawn's
> :eyes... I wouldn't mind seeing him again.
>
> The actor who played Doc, Joel Grey, is best
> known for the role of Master of Ceremonies, both on
> Broadway and in the film, for which he won a Tony
> and an Oscar. He's also had a rather prolific film and
> television career, but is best known for his work in
> musical theater. His daughter, Jennifer Grey, was the
> star of "Dirty Dancing".
>
> He also played a demon on the final episode of
> "Dallas".
"Dallas" had demons? Who knew...
vague disclaimer
Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Fgenlvat n gnq gbjneqf fcbvyre greevgbel ng gur raq gurer (gur ovg V
pubccrq)...
One Bit Shy
news:BTR1702-F0CD56...@news.giganews.com...
Yes, I understand the idea. They go on to explain their version themselves.
But at the moment they speak of its intensity the thought of Joyce is
raised. And *before* I have the chance to think through the psychology,
it's the juxtaposition of sex and dead person alone. At that moment it's
creepy to me.
OBS
Rowan Hawthorn
Jbbcf. Qnzzvg. V'ir *tbg* gb fgneg er-purpxvat gur guernq gbcvp orsber
V cbfg.
Elisi
vague disclaimer wrote:
> In article <1152283358.4...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Odd throwaway: Giles and his old-school
> > record player, and a song that has certain memories associated with
> > it... interesting that he'd want to dredge those up...
>
> I've read this many times now and am still baffled by your word choices:
> odd and dredge? What's odd and what's to dredge?
"I suppose I should also at least mention the Giles/J. Summers
connection, but honestly, if there are any long-term arcs about Buffy's
parental figures in the future, I'd imagine they'd have to occur in
spite of this show rather than because of it. "
AOQ, Review of 'Band Candy'.
I guess it was odd for AOQ, and he had to dregde up memories of an
episode he'd rather forget...
vague disclaimer
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
Heh. Yeah.
Giles has, of course, just lost his only friend of his own age, as well
as someone who cut him deep in more ways than one.
(Harmony) Watcher
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Five, Episode 17: "Forever"
> incredible I had to come back to tell you about it!")
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: Marti Noxon
>
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: The devil's in the details.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
>
>
--
==Harmony Watcher==
jil...@hotmail.com
(Harmony) Watcher wrote:
> Why did Willow want Dawn to find the book?
My guess is she sees absolutely nothing wrong about a girl with pretty
much zero experience in witchcraft attempting to resurrect someone.
Michael Ikeda
news:1152431738.8...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com:
I don't think Willow realized that Dawn could find references to
actual resurrection spells in the book.
WILLOW: (anxiously) But, i-it's just a history book. I-it might
answer some of her questions. I-I don't think she could do any ...
harm with that stuff, could she?
TARA: Well, it's not a how-to guide, but it refers to specific
resurrection spells and potions.
WILLOW: But I-I didn't ... I mean ... hey! How'd she know that?
TARA: I-I don't know, but ... god, what else did she take?
WILLOW: Nothing! I-I think. I think n... she took nothing else. But
maybe she did, and we should probably look. Because who knows? I-I
don't.
(Note how she seems to be starting to say "But I didn't know that"
before she backtracks. And how it sounds like she already checked
that that was the only book that Dawn took.)
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
3D Master
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1152283358.4...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>> I'd thought about Hank, but it hadn't occurred to me to give Angel
>> a cameo, probably because he's had a little bit of other stuff going
>> on lately.
>
> Christ! Not the lame old boyfriend again. My attitude has not improved.
Yeah, also notice how Buffy can't be bothered to cry and be in the arms
of her friends. No, she Slayer! She alone! Only vampires with souls can
understand and help Slayer! Ugh.
>> Said vampire doesn't get much love from his intermittent allies in
>> the Slaypack, huh? Nor does he deserve any, really. It makes sense
>> that he's still able to appeal to Dawn, though. This still seems
>> like some sort of elaborate play for Buffy, or possibly he wants to use
>> Dawn for something, because his stated reasons for caring don't
>> check. "She never treated me like a freak." Fine, except that
>> until very recently, Spike has almost always regarded being treated
>> like a normal person to be a grave insult. I suppose "Lovers Walk"
>> could be the exception, and a source of warm fuzzy feelings, but I
>> don't think I buy it, so I hope there's something more.
>
> When has he regarded the way Joyce has treated him as an insult? The "I'm
> bad" boast and bluster has been for the Scoobie's benefit. Not Joyce. I
> think the flowers for Joyce was just what he said it was.
No, it's not a boast, or bluster, he's been killing, raping, maiming
with a smile on his face for over a century: he's bad, period. Quite
frankly I think he just wants Buffy to take notice; you know, the girl
he's so obsessed about he threatened to kill her if she doesn't tell him
she loves her right away.
3D Master
--
~~~~~
"I've got something to say; it's better to burn out than to fade away!"
- The Kurgan, Highlander
"Give me some sugar, baby!"
- Ashley J. 'Ash' Williams, Army of Darkness
~~~~~
Author of several stories, which can be found here:
http://members.chello.nl/~jg.temolder1/
(Harmony) Watcher
"Michael Ikeda" <mmi...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:lMCdnb3JIfHPcS3Z...@rcn.net...
> "jil...@hotmail.com" <jil...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:1152431738.8...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com:
>
> >
> > (Harmony) Watcher wrote:
> >> Why did Willow want Dawn to find the book?
> >
> > My guess is she sees absolutely nothing wrong about a girl with
> > pretty much zero experience in witchcraft attempting to
> > resurrect someone.
> >
>
> I don't think Willow realized that Dawn could find references to
> actual resurrection spells in the book.
>
> WILLOW: (anxiously) But, i-it's just a history book. I-it might
> answer some of her questions. I-I don't think she could do any ...
> harm with that stuff, could she?
> TARA: Well, it's not a how-to guide, but it refers to specific
> resurrection spells and potions.
> WILLOW: But I-I didn't ... I mean ... hey! How'd she know that?
> TARA: I-I don't know, but ... god, what else did she take?
> WILLOW: Nothing! I-I think. I think n... she took nothing else. But
> maybe she did, and we should probably look. Because who knows? I-I
> don't.
>
>
> (Note how she seems to be starting to say "But I didn't know that"
> before she backtracks. And how it sounds like she already checked
> that that was the only book that Dawn took.)
>
trying to weave a cover-up to confuse Tara so that Tara would not suspect
her of purposely wanting Dawn to find that book. On the other hand, it does
not make much sense to me that Willow, being the "book geek" as she is,
would not know that the history book "refers to specific resurrection spells
and potions".
--
==Harmony Watcher==
3D Master
> * Arbitrar Of Quality wrote, On 7/7/2006 10:42 AM:
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>> threads.
>>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Five, Episode 17: "Forever"
>
>> Odd throwaway: Giles and his old-school record player, and a song that
>> has certain memories associated with
>> it... interesting that he'd want to dredge those up...
>
> We tend to think of Giles as the stuffy, tweedy,
> emotionally isolated librarian, because that is the
> way Buffy treated him for so long, but that is not
> at all an accurate description of Rupert "Ripper"
> Giles. That's as much a front as is Spike's "Big
> Bad" act.
Right, because he never killed, murdered, raped, and tortured for over a
century and the only that keeps him from doing it now is a chip in his
head. I must have imagined that was brutal killing vampire that tried to
kill the heroine of the show and her friends multiple times over. :rolleyes:
Michael Ikeda
news:Br7sg.140400$Mn5.17565@pd7tw3no:
I don't see it at all out of character for Willow to not fully
think something through before acting. And, of course, the
stammering is an attempt to cover that Willow pointed out the book
to Dawn. But what Willow says between the stammering indicates to
me that she simply didn't remember the references to actual spells
until Tara pointed it out.
This reminds me, incidentally, about the book Willow gives to Dawn
in "Listening to Fear".
WILLOW: Oh, well, it doesn't actually have spells in it. Just
history, and anecdotes, stuff like that.
I think that is basically what Willow THOUGHT she was doing in
"Forever". Except that this time the book contained a bit more
than Willow remembered.
lili...@gmail.com
Michael Ikeda schreef:
yep, one of the big problems of reading a lot, is that you don't always
remember what you've read where*eg*
Lore
peachy ashie passion
I think the quote you posted says just the opposite. Willow
stammers through trying to lie, then distracts from it with indignant
sounding questions about Dawn.
Michael Ikeda
news:ebesg.16976$LS6.8512@trnddc03:
Going into a bit more detail, here's what I think is going on in
Willow's mind. I'm repeating the quote above with my comments in
parentheses.
WILLOW: (anxiously) But, i-it's just a history book. I-it
might answer some of her questions. I-I don't think she could
do any ... harm with that stuff, could she?
(Willow doesn't see a serious problem. After all the book is
basically harmless. Or so she thinks.)
TARA: Well, it's not a how-to guide, but it refers to specific
resurrection spells and potions.
WILLOW: But I-I didn't ... I mean ... hey! How'd she know
that?
(Now she sees the problem. Almost lets "I didn't know that" slip out
before she catches herself and tries to backtrack.)
TARA: I-I don't know, but ... god, what else did she
take?
WILLOW: Nothing! I-I think. I think n... she took
nothing else. But maybe she did, and we should probably look.
Because who knows? I-I don't.
(Again Willow lets something slip. She had already CHECKED to make
sure that Dawn only took the history book. And again she tries to
cover her slip.)
Arbitrar Of Quality
Elisi wrote:
> lili...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > I think that a big part of Willow's problem is that she looks at magic
> > from a scientific angle where as Tara sees magic as something
> > spiritual.
> > For Willow, magic is something with rules that can be bended and
> > adapted, something with results and ingredients. She sees it in a way
> > of formulas and reactions..
> >
> > It's partly why she's stronger than Tara, because she doesn't stay
> > inside the box, but it makes for moral issues, because she doesn't get
> > why you don't do certain things. She doesn't get why if you can do
> > something, why it shouldn't be done. To her it's more of a case where
> > the only reason you don't do something is when it's dangerous and
> > either doesn't work or have the wrong effects. She doesn't completely
> > understand that sometimes it's wrong to do something, no matter the
> > positive result, simply because it's wrong to do it.
> ::nods:: And it's entirely in character for Willow. Little nerdy Willow
> of S1, who'd never tell a lie in a million years, happily snuck her way
> into any number of secret files without a worry in the world. It quite
> simply doesn't register on her inner moral scale.
That's a very good connection. Nothing to add, but yes, very in
character from the pre-witch days.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
I don't see why not. If the plan had been for TB to unambiguously
immediately follow IWMTLY, shouldn't that have come into play when
shooting "The Body?" If establishing that kind of relationship is so
improtant, you can shoot a quickie bridging scene.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> I don't find the idea of him caring over Joyce all that weird,
> remember, most of the Spike persona is a mask, an attempt at hiding
> that really, he's a sentimental old fool, with a pshychotic demon side,
> but hey, we all have our bad sides*eg*.
I can't go along with that, and I'm not one of the "evil evil thing"
crowd. There's an element of that in his personality, but I wouldn't
reduce the "Spike persona" to a "mask." He's been shown to get a
genuine thrill out of killing, hurting, and the adrenaline rush of the
fight and the kill. That, not acceptance, is what he lives for and
most enjoys. It's only very recently that we can see any sign of
anything resembling a change in his priorities.
> Notice that he keeps protesting being called safe, how he keeps
> fighting for his big bad image? Its because it's all he has left. If
> he admits he's no longer the big bad, then what is he? Just a sad
> remnant of the vampire he once was. None of the scoobies take him
> serious, the demons in town see him as either a traitor or a joke. And
> all he has left is his old reputation.
That's the effect of the chip, though (we've seen him refer to himself
as being pathetic several times in S4), and most of his major
interactions that we've seen with Joyce happened while he was at his a
real vampire.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Why did Willow want Dawn to find the book?
One likes to believe in the freedom of magic.
Some seem to be arguing that she was trying to show Dawn how impossible
it was, but I can't see that. Regardless of whether or not the book
itself had the right footnotes for her to immediately make use of, it's
a way to get her started on that path. I think Willow wanted to help
the poor kid, without fully thinking through the consequences. She
finds it hard to refuse someone in need, and given her love of magic
(and the fact that she herself has no formal training) is always kinda
eager to share it with others.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
One Bit Shy wrote:
> > I'd thought about Hank, but it hadn't occurred to me to give Angel
> > a cameo, probably because he's had a little bit of other stuff going
> > on lately.
>
> Ugh. I hate this scene. First time I saw this episode my reaction was,
> Christ! Not the lame old boyfriend again. My attitude has not improved.
You're not the only one, but I don't understand that attitude. If
you're going to maintain inter-universe continuity, you need to start
taking into account situations in which crossovers are pretty much
required.
The Buffy/Angel exchanges serve many purposes in a rather short amount
of screentime. There's the followup to Buffy's reaction to the
doctor's words in TB, as Michael quoted; in addition to all her other
emotions, there's some mostly irrational guilt that's not going to be
totally forgotten. There's the indication of how close she is to
letting her guard down, helping to set up the way she falters at the
end of the episode. Pretty needy now. And there's the sense of loss
that I'm feeling, since I think she and Angel could benefit from each
other's company if there weren't all the attached baggage.
That's all in addition to the fact that as someone for whom that was
one of my favorite pairings, this epiosde quickly reminds me of a few
things I liked about it and how convincingly IWRY killed it beyond hope
of resurrection. But even for those who don't care about this, the
conversation is about more than that.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
And, forgot to add, might feel hypocritical denying a spell to someone.
-AOQ
Elisi
> No, it's not a boast, or bluster, he's been killing, raping, maiming
> with a smile on his face for over a century: he's bad, period. Quite
> frankly I think he just wants Buffy to take notice; you know, the girl
> he's so obsessed about he threatened to kill her if she doesn't tell him
> she loves her right away.
I can't believe that I'm trying to talk to you, but please try to get
your facts right. From 'Crush':
SPIKE: If you don't admit ... that there's something there ... some
tiny feeling for me ... then I'll untie Dru, let her kill you instead.
[...] Just ... give me something ... a crumb ... a barest smidgen ...
tell me ... maybe, someday, there's a chance.
He might be evil, but he's not stupid. What he's asking for is a
chance, not eternal love.
John Briggs
Well, Joss only thought of it *after* he had shot "The Body".
--
John Briggs
vague disclaimer
"John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
Is that confirmed? It always struck me as something done as a result of
one of those networks 'notes' we hear referred to in the commentaries.
One Bit Shy
>
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>
>> > I'd thought about Hank, but it hadn't occurred to me to give Angel
>> > a cameo, probably because he's had a little bit of other stuff going
>> > on lately.
>>
>> Ugh. I hate this scene. First time I saw this episode my reaction was,
>> Christ! Not the lame old boyfriend again. My attitude has not improved.
>
> You're not the only one, but I don't understand that attitude. If
> you're going to maintain inter-universe continuity, you need to start
> taking into account situations in which crossovers are pretty much
> required.
I don't know why others react this way - this is not a conversation I've
seen before. For me it starts with when I was introduced to this episode -
which was still before I had seen most of earlier Buffy/Angel - especially
the key S2 stuff. So my primary understanding of him was the ex-boyfriend
that just pops up now and then and gets Buffy acting weird. So initially it
was all intrusive. Once I better understood the earlier story, that at
least better explained what happens here - though the romance of it is
largely lost on me anyway since I didn't much care for the Buffy/Angel
relationship in S1-3. Evidently others saw a chemistry between them. I
never got it. (Except with Angelus, but that's rather different.)
Even knowing the backstory it still feels odd to me. Their lives have been
so disconnected for so long now that the way they slip into their comofort
zone here doesn't feel real to me.
> The Buffy/Angel exchanges serve many purposes in a rather short amount
> of screentime. There's the followup to Buffy's reaction to the
> doctor's words in TB, as Michael quoted; in addition to all her other
> emotions, there's some mostly irrational guilt that's not going to be
> totally forgotten. There's the indication of how close she is to
> letting her guard down, helping to set up the way she falters at the
> end of the episode. Pretty needy now. And there's the sense of loss
> that I'm feeling, since I think she and Angel could benefit from each
> other's company if there weren't all the attached baggage.
Sure. There are functions served. The bit with Buffy wanting Angel to stay
forever ties directly into the episode's theme of Buffy struggling to cope
as the adult alone. I get that.
> That's all in addition to the fact that as someone for whom that was
> one of my favorite pairings, this epiosde quickly reminds me of a few
> things I liked about it and how convincingly IWRY killed it beyond hope
> of resurrection. But even for those who don't care about this, the
> conversation is about more than that.
Don't underestimate the value of liking the pairing to begin with. I
understand that the conversation is about more than that, but the
conversation is still being held with Angel. His presence is -er-
pervasive. (God, that makes it sound like he needs a bath.)
Ultimately it's not terribly important. A momentary irritation. No series
can avoid that. I feel fortunate there are so few for me.
OBS
vague disclaimer
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> I didn't much care for the Buffy/Angel
> relationship in S1-3. Evidently others saw a chemistry between them. I
> never got it. (Except with Angelus, but that's rather different.)
>
> Even knowing the backstory it still feels odd to me. Their lives have been
> so disconnected for so long now that the way they slip into their comofort
> zone here doesn't feel real to me.
They have been apart for, what, about 18 months after an intense (to put
it mildly) 3 year relationship and have met on and off since then. The
last time we saw them they seemed to have reach some sort of concord
that stopped the bad bits chaffing (in TYF). That was under a year ago.
If Angel has even half an ear to the ground he will drop everything to
be with the girl who - if every sense imaginable - saved him, in her
moment of greatest pain.
That she would accept this for what it was and appreciate the little
stroll along Memory Lane strikes be as completely real.
Michael Ikeda
> (Harmony) Watcher wrote:
>
>> Why did Willow want Dawn to find the book?
>
> One likes to believe in the freedom of magic.
>
> Some seem to be arguing that she was trying to show Dawn how
> impossible it was, but I can't see that.
>
Don't know about anyone else, but I'm not arguing that Willow was
trying to show Dawn how "impossible it was". I simply don't think
Willow realized that Dawn could GET to a real resurrection spell from
what was in the book.
For that matter, I tend to suspect that it might not have occurred to
Willow that Dawn could make much progress on her own even with much
more information than Willow THOUGHT was in the book. I don't think
most of the Scoobies quite realize how determined Dawn can sometimes
get.
Rowan Hawthorn
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
> news:1152503850.5...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
>> (Harmony) Watcher wrote:
>>
>>> Why did Willow want Dawn to find the book?
>> One likes to believe in the freedom of magic.
>>
>> Some seem to be arguing that she was trying to show Dawn how
>> impossible it was, but I can't see that.
>>
>
> Don't know about anyone else, but I'm not arguing that Willow was
> trying to show Dawn how "impossible it was". I simply don't think
> Willow realized that Dawn could GET to a real resurrection spell from
> what was in the book.
>
> For that matter, I tend to suspect that it might not have occurred to
> Willow that Dawn could make much progress on her own even with much
> more information than Willow THOUGHT was in the book. I don't think
> most of the Scoobies quite realize how determined Dawn can sometimes
> get.
>
I tend to agree with all of the above. Plus, Willow's not exactly a
stranger to the "doing things without thinking them through" mode...
One Bit Shy
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1152504449.2...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
I really don't think she thought she was giving Dawn the spell. That's an
awfully big spell for someone who's never performed magic.
I figured she just wanted to let Dawn know more about it - understand what
the big deal was - why Tara was in such a snit about it. Let Dawn reach
some of her own conclusions rather than just be lectured at.
OBS
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> stranger to the "doing things without thinking them through" mode...
naw
really?
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
Rowan Hawthorn
Would I lie?
vague disclaimer
Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Yup. Part of a long established pattern of being a tad reckless and a
tad neglectful of potential consequences.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
> >> I tend to agree with all of the above. Plus, Willow's not exactly a
> >> stranger to the "doing things without thinking them through" mode...
> >
> > naw
> >
> > really?
> >
> > arf meow arf - nsa fodder
> > ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
> > if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
>
> Would I lie?
do you sleep standing up?
Rowan Hawthorn
> In article <h4mdnXRD8qj...@giganews.com>,
> Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
>>>> I tend to agree with all of the above. Plus, Willow's not exactly a
>>>> stranger to the "doing things without thinking them through" mode...
>>> naw
>>>
>>> really?
>>>
>>> arf meow arf - nsa fodder
>>> ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
>>> if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
>> Would I lie?
>
> do you sleep standing up?
Hardly ever - nor in any other position, either.
Stephen Tempest
>I figured she just wanted to let Dawn know more about it - understand what
>the big deal was - why Tara was in such a snit about it. Let Dawn reach
>some of her own conclusions rather than just be lectured at.
I'm inclined to agree.
Marti Noxon's stage directions are quite interesting in this regard.
From the earlier conversation about resurrection spells:
___________________________________________________
WILLOW
I'm not even sure it's possible, Dawn. I mean, I've seen things about
resurrection. There are books and stuff...
Willow wavers for a moment. Why can't it work? She looks to Tara.
WILLOW
But I guess... the spells backfire?
TARA
That's not the point -
WILLOW (quickly/to Dawn)
That's not the point. The point is, it's bad. Because...
She looks to Tara... Because why?
TARA
Because witches can't be allowed to alter the fabric of life that way,
for selfish reasons. We'd manipulate the world until it came unglued.
___________________________________________________
Somewhere in there there's an interesting comparison to be made
between Willow and Spike... both lack a moral compass and turn to the
woman in their lives for guidance on how to be 'good'... <g>
Next, the stage directions from the later scene where Tara discovers
the missing book:
___________________________________________________
TARA
What happened to "History of Witchcraft?"
Willow sits up, alarm and guilt rising.
WILLOW
I - it isn't there?
Tara shakes her head, turns to Willow - concerned.
TARA
Dawn must have taken it.
WILLOW
What? No, she didn't. She did?
TARA
That book has a whole section on resurrection spells.
(worried)
This is bad. This is really bad...
Now Willow looks worried too. And regretful.
WILLOW
But it's just a history book. It might answer some of her questions -
but it's not like she could do any harm with that stuff. Could she?
TARA
It doesn't have a "how to" guide, but it refers to specific
resurrection spells and potions.
Willow stands - fully freaked.
WILLOW
I didn't - I mean, hey! How'd she know that?
TARA
I don't know. But she could get into major trouble with that
information.
(looking around)
God. What else did she take -
WILLOW (too quickly)
Nothing.
Tara gives Willow a look - how would she know? Willow starts to ramble
nervously -
WILLOW
I think. I think she took nothing else but maybe she did and we should
look, because who knows? I don't.
TARA
No. We can't waste time on that now. Who knows what she's up to...
Willow takes this in - dread rising.
WILLOW
We need to call Buffy. Now.
___________________________________________________
...it certainly sounds to me like Willow had no intention of Dawn
actually casting any spells... she was just desperate to find some way
to comfort her. And, being Willow, she thought that acquiring
knowledge about something would be a comforting activity... and I
suspect there was some of Willow's own curiosity aroused.
Pyrneyl fur jrag onpx naq ernq gur puncgre ba erfheerpgvba fcryyf
urefrys yngre ba...
Stephen
- who always wants to spell 'resurrection' with two Ss and one R, for
some reason.
Mel
Just to add to that, we see in many situations that the Scoobies look to
Buffy to be the leader. It's hard for a leader to share such
vulnerabilities with anyone, when they are always expected to be in
charge and know what to do. Buffy says as much to Riley in Into the
Woods. Angel is no longer a part of her everyday group, so it's probably
a lot easier for her to open to him and tell him how lost she feels than
it would be to say the same to Willow or Xander. She only reluctantly,
after much pouting and accusation on Dawn's part, lets the latter in on
how she's really feeling: lost and scared.
Btw, I loved the scene with Angel. I've never considered myself a
shipper at all, but this really cemented for me that these two belong
together, even if they can never be together. Angel is there for Buffy
in her greatest hour of need. Riley, the one who kept saying he loved
her sooooo much, is off doing who knows what who knows where. Spike, the
obsessed one, is nowhere to be found. Angel makes the trip from LA to
comfort her and, even better, no one else knows. I love it.
Mel
Mel
John Briggs wrote:
It never occurred to me that Buffy finding her mother didn't happen as
soon as she came home from sitting with April. What clinches it for me,
after this discussion? The flowers from Brian. He and Joyce go out, have
a good time, the next day he sends her flowers and asks when he can see
her again. It really makes no sense for that to _not_ happen the very
next day.
Mel
Don Sample
Mel <melb...@uci.net> wrote:
But there is the whole intervening conversation with Xander about
shimming, and calling to tell Ben that the coffee date is off after
Buffy sits with April. And then we get Spike visiting Warren to place
his order, something that most likely happened after sunset. We next
see Buffy in bright sunshine wearing entirely different clothes. It
never occurred to me that it was still the same day when she comes home
and finds Joyce.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
peachy ashie passion
Thank you for this Stephen. I may well revise my opinion.
jil...@hotmail.com
One Bit Shy wrote:
> I really don't think she thought she was giving Dawn the spell. That's an
> awfully big spell for someone who's never performed magic.
>
> I figured she just wanted to let Dawn know more about it - understand what
> the big deal was - why Tara was in such a snit about it. Let Dawn reach
> some of her own conclusions rather than just be lectured at.
Actually, what I got from that exchange is that Willow herself barely,
if at all, understands why Tara is upset about it. Tara's been
studying responsible magic, absorbing lessons learned by others in why
one should not do black magic. People sometimes like to whine about
the Wicca thing but, disregarding "real" life... Willow isn't Wicca.
She's a powerful witch who uses her talent without a strong regard for
the consequences.
Stephen Tempest
> Thank you for this Stephen. I may well revise my opinion.
But this is Usenet! You can't do that!
Stephen
- at least, not and admit it in public...
peachy ashie passion
I'm a rebel. ;)
3D Master
Which is the same thing. He was going to kill her if she didn't: no
bluster, evil.
3D Master
--
~~~~~
"I've got something to say; it's better to burn out than to fade away!"
- The Kurgan, Highlander
"Give me some sugar, baby!"
- Ashley J. 'Ash' Williams, Army of Darkness
~~~~~
Author of several stories, which can be found here:
http://members.chello.nl/~jg.temolder1/
MBangel10 (Melissa)
> Elisi wrote:
>> 3D Master wrote:
>>
>>> No, it's not a boast, or bluster, he's been killing, raping, maiming
>>> with a smile on his face for over a century: he's bad, period. Quite
>>> frankly I think he just wants Buffy to take notice; you know, the girl
>>> he's so obsessed about he threatened to kill her if she doesn't tell him
>>> she loves her right away.
>>
>> I can't believe that I'm trying to talk to you, but please try to get
>> your facts right. From 'Crush':
>>
>> SPIKE: If you don't admit ... that there's something there ... some
>> tiny feeling for me ... then I'll untie Dru, let her kill you instead.
>> [...] Just ... give me something ... a crumb ... a barest smidgen ...
>> tell me ... maybe, someday, there's a chance.
>>
>> He might be evil, but he's not stupid. What he's asking for is a
>> chance, not eternal love.
>
> Which is the same thing. He was going to kill her if she didn't: no
> bluster, evil.
>
>
> 3D Master
Then why did he bother to rescue her from Dru? I mean, you say that he
was going to kill her if she didn't, and she didn't so what is the point
of him caring if Dru kills her or not?
3D Master
Because he's obsessed with Buffy. Sjeez. Again, he's been killing for
over a century, happily murdering and raping people and he got a kick
out of it. It isn't bluster; he's evil.
3D Master
This is something I so utterly can't stand. Spike-lovers. No, Spike
didn't kill and rape for over a century, he's a saint, he wouldn't do
that. He was just boasting at the time; sure, a few people got killed,
tortured, and/or raped during his boasting, but he doesn't have a drop
of evil in his body. AAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!
alphakitten
> Elisi wrote:
>
>> 3D Master wrote:
>>
>>> No, it's not a boast, or bluster, he's been killing, raping, maiming
>>> with a smile on his face for over a century: he's bad, period. Quite
>>> frankly I think he just wants Buffy to take notice; you know, the girl
>>> he's so obsessed about he threatened to kill her if she doesn't tell him
>>> she loves her right away.
>>
>>
>> I can't believe that I'm trying to talk to you, but please try to get
>> your facts right. From 'Crush':
>>
>> SPIKE: If you don't admit ... that there's something there ... some
>> tiny feeling for me ... then I'll untie Dru, let her kill you instead.
>> [...] Just ... give me something ... a crumb ... a barest smidgen ...
>> tell me ... maybe, someday, there's a chance.
>>
>> He might be evil, but he's not stupid. What he's asking for is a
>> chance, not eternal love.
>
>
> Which is the same thing. He was going to kill her if she didn't: no
> bluster, evil.
>
Yes, he was evil. But he wasn't going to kill her. See Family, Fool for
Love etc.
~Angel
alphakitten
And someone said that, or anything resembling that, when?
~Angel
MBangel10 (Melissa)
> 3D Master wrote:
>> MBangel10 (Melissa) wrote:
>>> 3D Master wrote:
>>>> Elisi wrote:
>>>>> 3D Master wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> No, it's not a boast, or bluster, he's been killing, raping, maiming
>>>>>> with a smile on his face for over a century: he's bad, period. Quite
>>>>>> frankly I think he just wants Buffy to take notice; you know, the
>>>>>> girl
>>>>>> he's so obsessed about he threatened to kill her if she doesn't
>>>>>> tell him
>>>>>> she loves her right away.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't believe that I'm trying to talk to you, but please try to get
>>>>> your facts right. From 'Crush':
>>>>>
>>>>> SPIKE: If you don't admit ... that there's something there ... some
>>>>> tiny feeling for me ... then I'll untie Dru, let her kill you instead.
>>>>> [...] Just ... give me something ... a crumb ... a barest smidgen ...
>>>>> tell me ... maybe, someday, there's a chance.
>>>>>
>>>>> He might be evil, but he's not stupid. What he's asking for is a
>>>>> chance, not eternal love.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Then why did he bother to rescue her from Dru? I mean, you say that
>>> he was going to kill her if she didn't, and she didn't so what is the
>>> point of him caring if Dru kills her or not?
>>
>> Because he's obsessed with Buffy. Sjeez. Again, he's been killing for
>> over a century, happily murdering and raping people and he got a kick
>> out of it. It isn't bluster; he's evil.
>
> This is something I so utterly can't stand. Spike-lovers. No, Spike
> didn't kill and rape for over a century, he's a saint, he wouldn't do
> that. He was just boasting at the time; sure, a few people got killed,
> tortured, and/or raped during his boasting, but he doesn't have a drop
> of evil in his body. AAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!
>
>
> 3D Master
So basically your previous statements are moot because you (and quote)
said: "Which is the same thing. He was going to kill her if she didn't:
no bluster, evil." So, since he was obsessed with Buffy he didn't have
any intention of killing her at all?
Your logic (and all of your posts) is asinine to say the least, babe
(and yes, I mean that little name calling to be as derogative as you
intend in your previous posts).
One Bit Shy
news:ba82a$44b4ca5d$3ec2ee50$63...@news.chello.nl...
You realize you're arguing with yourself now, don't you? I don't see
anybody else taking that position.
OBS
John Briggs
It was written to be the beginning of the next episode, so there was no
requirement to maintain continuity.
--
John Briggs
Mel
All of which could have taken place in about 5 minutes. Xander could
have been working on the window while Buffy was chatting it up with
Warren and then April. She stops off to see him on her way home, and
calls Ben before she leaves.
Spike only getting around at night? Yeah, 'cause we've never seen him
going anywhere during the day before.
It just works better for me if it's the same day. The juxtaposition of a
death-watch for April and being too late to help her mother as a result
is too poignant.
Mel
3D Master
:rolleyes: No, that's the point with something being an obsession and
not love. One moment someone's nice and sweet, then next he/she'll
happily torture his/her obssession to death.
You know, people and pure evil demons or whatever that are obsessed,
aren't consistent in the brain. They're sick.
3D Master
I'm not arguing with myself, it's an attendum, a PS. And you're the one
who actually made the position. "Spike's 'I'm bad' is just bluster for
the Scoobies."
3D Master
All the way at the beginning, by One Bit Shy, "Spike's 'I'm bad' bluster
and boast is for the Scoobie's benefit." Yeah, not only did he happily
kill, murder, torture, and rape for over a century, he did it for the
Scoobie's benefit to boot - what a nice guy. [sarcasm]A century ago,
he'd know he'd meat up with a bunch of good guys, go help them, and to
boost their egos he was going to make sure he was the baddest, evil
killing machine around.[/sarcasm.
3D Master
Of course he was going to kill her. Just because he was obsessed and
switches from one end of the spectrum to the other like a good little
obsessed boy, doesn't mean he wouldn't kill her without a second thought.
alphakitten
What's on screen suggests otherwise, and rather strongly. Again, see
Family, FFL, and BZJS. He can threaten her til the cows come home, he
was never going to kill her.
~Angel
One Bit Shy
My actual words were, "The "I'm bad" boast and bluster has been for the
Scoobie's benefit." If you're going to quote people, please do so
accurately.
But, yes, I did say that. Which is not remotely akin to anything you wrote
in that utterly stupid paragraph that you are now insanely trying to
attribute to my sentiments. Have you ever heard of a straw man argument?
That Spike's a saint nonsense is an example. You invented it on your own.
And that's what I meant about arguing with yourself.
OBS
Clairel
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Five, Episode 17: "Forever"
> (or "I've been dead for a week, but this record offer is so
> incredible I had to come back to tell you about it!")
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: Marti Noxon
>
> The opening sequence is deliberately shot to look like a dream, I
> guess, but it's mostly there in the end to move us into Buffy trying
> to run her family's life. No matter how much one sympathizes with
> Buffy, it's hard not to get annoyed on Dawn's behalf at her sister
> constantly trying to push her away and "shelter" her. Just to be
> clear, that's not really a complaint about the show (as long was we
> don't see that same basic scene too often) so much as a statement
> about a flaw in a character who hasn't been having the best of
> years.
>
> Buffy and Xander and the others exhaustedly working over the nuances of
> the funeral programs is actually one of my favorite moments of the
> episode. These bonds that were formed while our heroes were
> high-school kids with few concerns beyond getting laid and fighting
> metaphors now lead them to support each other as they try their best to
> learn to be grown-ups together.
>
> Thrown in near the beginning is a scene between Ben and Jinx, and a
> typically irritating Glory followup later (I always have to turn the
> volume down about five clicks whenever she speaks, or else I'd go
> crazy. The half-assed flattery is okay, though). Man-Nurse and his
> actor, Charlie Weber, just went down several notches in my estimation.
> He comes off like a moron here with his tongue-slip and subsequently
> calling attention to it. And then when he seems to be getting more
> interesting and tries to kill for the greater good, it doesn't occur
> to him to make sure to get it right. And could Weber's delivery
> possibly be less convincing on "do you understand what's going to
> happen if she finds the key? How many people are going to die?"
>
> I'd thought about Hank, but it hadn't occurred to me to give Angel
> a cameo, probably because he's had a little bit of other stuff going
> inter-series chronology in the "Disharmony" review.) But if
> you're him, don't you pretty much have to at least put in an
> appearance? I like these scenes for what they are. The fact that they
> can't keep their mouths off each other is unfortunate, since it seems
> like both characters could benefit from a more mature friendship than
> they had in their past interactions. But thanks to that past, as a
> wise vampire once pointed out, they can never be friends.
>
> Said vampire doesn't get much love from his intermittent allies in
> the Slaypack, huh? Nor does he deserve any, really. It makes sense
> that he's still able to appeal to Dawn, though. This still seems
> like some sort of elaborate play for Buffy, or possibly he wants to use
> Dawn for something, because his stated reasons for caring don't
> check. "She never treated me like a freak." Fine, except that
> until very recently, Spike has almost always regarded being treated
> like a normal person to be a grave insult. I suppose "Lovers Walk"
> could be the exception, and a source of warm fuzzy feelings, but I
> don't think I buy it, so I hope there's something more.
--Huh. And AOQ is usually so perceptive about Spike and the other
characters. Since I notice there's another thread about "Intervention"
and AOQ has obviously gotten as far as that episode and farther, I'm
not spoiling anything when I point out that even aside from any warm
and fuzzy feelings he may have about Joyce herself, Spike naturally is
going to care very much about the impact that Joyce's death is going to
have on Buffy. I suppose "Intervention" made that clear to you, right,
AOQ? (I'm going to read your review of it in a minute.) But what
amazes me is why it didn't spring to your mind when you were watching
"Forever."
Just the things you've seen on screen up to this point ought to make it
clear. Remember the ending of "Fool For Love," where Spike's face
softens and he puts down the gun when he sees Buffy's grief and tears?
What was she crying about then? Her mother's illness, of course -- the
danger to her mother's life. And now, as of "Forever," all of Buffy's
worst fears about Joyce have come true. If Spike melted at Buffy's
grief over her mother's illness, how much more affected is he going to
be by imagining Buffy's grief over her mother's death? (Spike doesn't
have to *see* Buffy to realize what she must be going through. He
*knows.*) Plus, there was Spike's comment to Dawn in "Forever" when
she asked him why he was helping her: "I just don't like to see
Summers women take it on the chin, that's all."
What did you think that meant, AOQ? Did you think "Summers women"
referred only to Joyce, and "taking it on the chin" meant Joyce taking
it on the chin from the Grim Reaper? Why can't "Summers women taking
it on the chin" also mean Buffy (and Dawn) taking it on the chin in the
sense of losing their mother? Why wouldn't Spike care about that,
since he's in love with Buffy?
No matter whether you came to understand this after watching
"Intervention" or not, AOQ, I really am curious about why it wasn't
immediately understandable upon watching "Forever." I don't think I've
ever seen you so inaccurate in your comments about a character before,
as in your comments about Spike here on this thread.
Clairel
3D Master
So, he killed, murdered, and raped a century long before he met the
Scoobies, for the Scoobies benefit, is that it? Drusilla saw it in a
vision and told him a century before it happened he was going to betray
her, and help the Scoobies feel good about themselves because he was so
bad, so he should go kill, torture, and rape for a century so the
Scoobies can feel good about themselves. Is that it? Because you know,
you said that Spike being bad is just bluster for the Scoobies benefit;
if he isn't really bad, than he wasn't really bad that century before he
met them either. If it's all just bluster...
Arbitrar Of Quality
3D Master wrote:
> One Bit Shy wrote:
> > "3D Master" <3d.m...@chello.nl> wrote in message
> > news:d1136$44b61064$3ec2ee50$27...@news.chello.nl...
> >> One Bit Shy wrote:
> >>> "3D Master" <3d.m...@chello.nl> wrote in message
> >>> news:ba82a$44b4ca5d$3ec2ee50$63...@news.chello.nl...
> >>>> This is something I so utterly can't stand. Spike-lovers. No, Spike
It resembles baiting, but I really am curious, so I'm going to ask: are
you intentionally being difficult here, or shoud this be treated as a
serious line of questioning? Because *no one* other than (maybe) you
with half a brain could read these posts in context and think that
anyone posting in these threads is saying anything that remotely
resembles this argument. The Spike-was-never-evil sentiment is indeed
a perfect example of a straw-man since it's blindingly obvious that
there's nobody saying that.
-AOQ