AOQ Review 4-13: "The I In Team"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Four, Episode 13: "The I In Team"
(or "The New Pornographers - _Quintuplet Cinema_")
Writers: David Fury
Director: James A. Contner
And so we continue putting the pieces together in our string of
acceptable but not thoroughly exciting TV. The whole Initiative
storyline has been better in theory than in execution, I think. And
I'd agree with those who argue that the show's in a bit of a rut
because of it; I thought "The Initiative" lacked sizzle, then we
pushed that story more to the background during the P/SB/H trifecta of
cool, and the series has been dragging again with the last few
episodes.
Now, that being said - and I'm going to give away the rating right
here at the top - TIIT does manage to earn a Good, for three reasons.
First, there are a few images that're quite effective. Second, I
like what they're doing with the B-story. Third, it doesn't drag
its feet.
Actually, let's hit those points in reverse order. I think we all
knew that sooner or later, the Initiative, and Walsh in particular,
would turn out to be a problem of some kind for our heroes, and that
Riley would be faced with a Big Choice. Big secretive government
groups usually aren't cuddly in SF/F if they're introduced midway
through the story. But I figured we'd spend a few more months
gradually putting that together. Instead, Walsh quickly realizes the
ways in which Buffy's a threat, Buffy quickly puts together what's
going on, Riley seems to know bad guys when he sees them, and so on,
all within a reasonable amount of time. We go from Point A to Point B
in a mostly logical manner that doesn't involve much unnecessary
stalling or slowness, everyone reacting as they should. I said
"without *much* slowness," note. The tour of the Underground Lab
O' Doom drags, as do quite a few of the military scenes.
What sets this apart and makes it a little more memorable are the
individual moments (I guess we won't do pure reverse-order after
all). The way certain scenes are shot, and the little touches. Things
that'll stay with me include:
- The flashes between violence and sex. It's a cool way to tell that
part of the story, the camera work is hypnotic, and the music is pretty
ear-catching too.
- The next morning, Buffy looking around in a panic to see whether
he's still there. She's not getting over that one any time soon,
is she? (Or maybe she was just afraid of finding herself pregnant with
a demon litter.)
- The use of the monitors during pivotal scenes worked for me. Maggie
Walsh: Video Voyeur should elicit some nightmares. And then there's
Buffy's you-shouldn't-have-fucked-with-me speech seen on the same
screens; not strategically sound, maybe, but badass heroics are always
fun.
- Riley's silent stride out of the episode.
And it doesn't get a dash before it, just because, but let's not
forget the ending. Walsh is making an awkwardly staged Slightly
Sympathetic Villain Speech when she gets a possibly fatal case of
bwahaha interruptus. Huh. Didn't see that coming at all, I must
say. I'm worried that the Initiative plot might falter even more
without a human face on it, but nothing that happens in future episodes
will take away from that moment of surprise.
Short takes about the A-story:
What exactly was the relationship between Riley and Walsh? I'd
assume it's a parent-figure deal similar to Buffy and Giles; am I
missing anything that'd contradict that?
The dialogue suggests that Buffy isn't in the psych class anymore,
which would make sense given the timing. I wonder if UC[Sun]D is on
quarters or semesters?
>From the "Know When To Kill A Joke" Department: The "if you'd
rather wait" scene is okay, even if it's a bit obviously not about
sex to someone familiar with the rhythm of the series. But then did it
really need the "you said it was big..." coda?
Fury's got mother issues! Fury's got mother issues! It's what
Freud would've said. But seriously, despite the coolness of the last
moment, I don't really know what's up with Adam. Why would he spear
his "mom?" (Never mind what Freud would say.)
So Buffy and her new commando pals are too cool to hang out with the
rest of the core cast anymore. I like that aspect of this show. This
is how friends just kinda drift apart, without bad intentions.
Whenever Willow confronts Buffy about her insensitive behavior, she's
suitably apologetic. No one particularly wants the formerly close
bonds between this group to fray at the edges, and there's no reason
they won't continue to consider themselves friends. But Buffy and
Willow are each involved in things the other wouldn't entirely
understand. Even Xander, who's only around because he wants to stay
close to the two of them, has a former vengeance demon occupying a lot
of his time. Things aren't the way they were in high school, which
has been a big background element of the last few episodes, and to a
lesser extent S4 as whole; I'm glad to be realizing that "Doomed"
was only part of that story. Call it a consequence of people with
diverging interests who're transplanted to a new setting. (Maybe
they need a good crisis to force them together, like none of them being
safe for a shadowy government group?)
The Tale Of Xander And His Wacky Business Misadventures doesn't do
much for me, nor does it add anything to TIIT. Can we just assume that
no one bought the stuff and move on, or will we be forced to watch this
thrilling story play out over the course of the next three seasons?
Still unclear on why Willow is so reluctant to talk about her new witch
friend. Mrs. Q. is convinced that Tara is crushing on Willow. I
actually happen to already know whether or not she's right, but I
thought I'd update y'all on a first-timer's impressions.
The Spike/Giles scenes are good. I have nothing else to say about
them, I just like it whenever our writers put the Briton and the
fake-Briton on screen together and let them bounce Whedonspeak off each
other for a few minutes. Except that typing that just made me realize
the kind of fanfic that must've been written about them, and I may
need a bucket given that I just ate. What would Freud say?
This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
"Send me the heart I desire."
Since I read Eddings obsessively when I was a kid, "Polgara" is one
of those names I can't hear without thinking of those books. I
assumed that it must've had some other connotation too, so I
Wikipediaed it. The writers apparently got it from a username
(probably an Eddings fan) on one of the _Buffy_ forums.
Finally, how could I end the review without mentioning the hilarious
series of jokes leading up to "everyone's getting spanked but
me?" Hee. I'm sure Wil would find plenty of volunteers on this
NG. And now I'm far more curious than seems healthy about who's
giving and who's taking on the X/A side of things. Or maybe they
switch-hit?
So...
One-sentence summary: Pretty good in a non-thrilling way.
AOQ rating: Good
[Season Four so far:
1) "The Freshman" - Good
2) "Living Conditions" - Decent
3) "The Harsh Light Of Day" - Good
4) "Fear Itself" - Decent
5) "Beer Bad" - Weak
6) "Wild At Heart" - Excellent
7) "The Initiative" - Decent
8) "Pangs" - Good
9) "Something Blue" - Good
10) "Hush" - Good
11) "Doomed" - Weak
12) "A New Man" - Decent
13) "The I In Team" - Good]
Horace LaBadie
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> Fury's got mother issues! Fury's got mother issues! It's what
> Freud would've said. But seriously, despite the coolness of the last
> moment, I don't really know what's up with Adam. Why would he spear
> his "mom?" (Never mind what Freud would say.)
>
Pretty simple explanation, actually. This represents the second "actor
availability" crisis that Joss faced in Season Four.
HWL
KenM47
Has this ever been formally confirmed? There were also rumors, IIRC,
about LC being difficult?
Things did seem to spin out of control all of a sudden, but I guess if
you believe in chaos theory it's bound to happen.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Michael Ikeda
news:1147036738.7...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
> review threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Four, Episode 13: "The I In Team"
> (or "The New Pornographers - _Quintuplet Cinema_")
> Writers: David Fury
> Director: James A. Contner
>
> Short takes about the A-story:
> What exactly was the relationship between Riley and Walsh? I'd
> assume it's a parent-figure deal similar to Buffy and Giles; am
> I missing anything that'd contradict that?
"Parent-figure" is a pretty good description.
>
> The dialogue suggests that Buffy isn't in the psych class
> anymore, which would make sense given the timing. I wonder if
> UC[Sun]D is on quarters or semesters?
Don't recall them saying, but MOST of the UC campuses (including UC
Santa Barbara) are on the quarter system. The exceptions are UC
Berkeley and the new UC Merced campus.
>
> The Tale Of Xander And His Wacky Business Misadventures doesn't
> do much for me, nor does it add anything to TIIT. Can we just
> assume that no one bought the stuff and move on, or will we be
> forced to watch this thrilling story play out over the course of
> the next three seasons?
Of course not. Next episode he moves on to magazines and
cosmetics. Then there's always the thrilling world of
telemarketing. :)
>
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> "Send me the heart I desire."
She was praying. :)
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
George W Harris
wrote:
:> The Tale Of Xander And His Wacky Business Misadventures doesn't
:> do much for me, nor does it add anything to TIIT. Can we just
:> assume that no one bought the stuff and move on, or will we be
:> forced to watch this thrilling story play out over the course of
:> the next three seasons?
:
:Of course not. Next episode he moves on to magazines and
:cosmetics. Then there's always the thrilling world of
:telemarketing. :)
You'll *love* the episode where he gets his
own phone-sex line.
--
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV!
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
Kevin
KenM47 wrote:
> Horace LaBadie <hwlab...@nospam.highstream.net> wrote:
> >Pretty simple explanation, actually. This represents the second "actor
> >availability" crisis that Joss faced in Season Four.
>
> about LC being difficult?
In an interview (for the Watcher's Guide), Crouse said:
"Well, I'm very sad to leave the show. When I went to Joss a
few weeks ago, I said, 'Joss, what do you think is going to happen,
how are we going to develop this character?' He gleefully said,
'Oh, you're going to create a monster, and it's going to kill you.
You're going to die, it's going to be great.' Well, great for you.
I love doing the show."
Elsewhere, I think the rumor was that her agent had mistakenly(?) told
ME that her availability was short-term, but she didn't find out --
until Joss told her about Walsh's demise. I don't know if this is
true.
--Kevin
KenM47
Opus the Penguin
> The dialogue suggests that Buffy isn't in the psych class anymore,
> which would make sense given the timing. I wonder if UC[Sun]D is on
> quarters or semesters?
UC literature tells us that all UC schools are on the quarter system
except for Berkeley, which is on semesters. Ergo and QED, UC*D is on
the quarter system.
--
Opus the Penguin
The best darn penguin in all of Usenet
Opus the Penguin
> And so we continue putting the pieces together in our string of
> acceptable but not thoroughly exciting TV. The whole Initiative
> storyline has been better in theory than in execution, I think. And
> I'd agree with those who argue that the show's in a bit of a rut
> because of it;
I'm obviously in the minority, but I think this story line is what
*kept* the show from getting into a rut. Yet another season of, hey,
there's this supernatural monster thing that's going to come to a head
right in time for the end of the school year.... Well, that would have
seemed stale. That's why, even though I like Sunday a lot (more than
many people seemed to), I realized in retrospect that killing her off
was the right move.
Opus the Penguin
> Don't recall them saying, but MOST of the UC campuses (including UC
> Santa Barbara) are on the quarter system. The exceptions are UC
> Berkeley and the new UC Merced campus.
No kidding? I'd never heard of UC Merced until just now. I guess my own
reply was out of date.
Opus the Penguin
> What sets this apart and makes it a little more memorable are the
> individual moments (I guess we won't do pure reverse-order after
> all). The way certain scenes are shot, and the little touches.
> Things that'll stay with me include:
>
> - The flashes between violence and sex. It's a cool way to tell
> that part of the story, the camera work is hypnotic, and the music
> is pretty ear-catching too.
>
> - The next morning, Buffy looking around in a panic to see whether
> he's still there. She's not getting over that one any time soon,
> is she? (Or maybe she was just afraid of finding herself pregnant
> with a demon litter.)
>
> - The use of the monitors during pivotal scenes worked for me.
> Maggie Walsh: Video Voyeur should elicit some nightmares. And
> then there's Buffy's you-shouldn't-have-fucked-with-me speech seen
> on the same screens; not strategically sound, maybe, but badass
> heroics are always fun.
>
> - Riley's silent stride out of the episode.
>
How can you mention that without mentioning Walsh's strident cries of
"Riley!" That out and out RUINED the scene for me. It was completely
out of character for her and it made her look like a weak ninny who
couldn't possibly have commanded his respect or affection.
Rowan Hawthorn
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> What exactly was the relationship between Riley and Walsh? I'd
> assume it's a parent-figure deal similar to Buffy and Giles; am I
> missing anything that'd contradict that?
Contradict? No. Expand on? Maybe...
>
> The dialogue suggests that Buffy isn't in the psych class anymore,
> which would make sense given the timing. I wonder if UC[Sun]D is on
> quarters or semesters?
Timed around funerals?
>
> Fury's got mother issues! Fury's got mother issues! It's what
> Freud would've said. But seriously, despite the coolness of the last
> moment, I don't really know what's up with Adam. Why would he spear
> his "mom?" (Never mind what Freud would say.)
Has more to do with what Mary Shelley said...
>
> Still unclear on why Willow is so reluctant to talk about her new witch
> friend.
Really? It's Willow. Think about it.
> Mrs. Q. is convinced that Tara is crushing on Willow. I
> actually happen to already know whether or not she's right, but I
> thought I'd update y'all on a first-timer's impressions.
Jr-ryy, gurl qvqa'g rknpgyl yrnir ivrjref thrffvat nobhg
*gung* cneg, naljnl.
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> "Send me the heart I desire."
"That's not magic, I was praying." Yeah, right!
> Finally, how could I end the review without mentioning the hilarious
> series of jokes leading up to "everyone's getting spanked but
> me?" Hee. I'm sure Wil would find plenty of volunteers on this
> NG.
<Hand shoots up immediately>
> And now I'm far more curious than seems healthy about who's
> giving and who's taking on the X/A side of things. Or maybe they
> switch-hit?
Willow looked like the same thought might have crossed her mind.
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg,
"Buffy the Vampire Slayer"
Don Sample
"Kevin" <kl...@ucsc.edu> wrote:
Of course, it's part of the agent's job to take the blame for things
like that, even if it isn't their fault.
I really do think that Crouse leaving was something that was sprung on
them at the last moment. Walsh went from being amused by Riley's
interest in Buffy at the end of 'A New Man' ("Oh, no. Spontaneous poetic
exclamations. Lord, spare me college boys in love.") to some sort of
psycho stalker woman.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
One Bit Shy
news:1147036738.7...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
I'll try to follow up with more later. But I don't have time now. Just one
thing I wanted to toss in...
> - The use of the monitors during pivotal scenes worked for me. Maggie
> Walsh: Video Voyeur should elicit some nightmares.
Flashback to the Hush dream sequence. Buffy/Riley on the table kissing - in
front of an audience - in front of Maggie. Maggie telling Riley, "Be a good
boy."
OBS
Apteryx
news:1147036738.7...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> threads.
>
> Now, that being said - and I'm going to give away the rating right
> here at the top - TIIT does manage to earn a Good, for three reasons.
> First, there are a few images that're quite effective. Second, I
> like what they're doing with the B-story. Third, it doesn't drag
> its feet.
Agree with all of that, except the bit where it's Good. It's just a shame
about the A-story.
> - The next morning, Buffy looking around in a panic to see whether
> he's still there. She's not getting over that one any time soon,
> is she? (Or maybe she was just afraid of finding herself pregnant with
> a demon litter.)
I think she probably avoided the trauma of seeing Expecting. The characters
on BtVS generally don't have a clue about what is going on in AtS, and vice
versa, so apparently they are not watching the other show.
> - The use of the monitors during pivotal scenes worked for me. Maggie
> Walsh: Video Voyeur should elicit some nightmares. And then there's
> Buffy's you-shouldn't-have-fucked-with-me speech seen on the same
> screens; not strategically sound, maybe, but badass heroics are always
> fun.
Not strategically sound? Revealing that someone's attempt to kill you has
failed and taunting them at the same time only makes sense if you are quite
sure that they have created a Frankenstein's monster, and it is just about
to wake up and skewer them. Otherwise it could get you killed. It looks like
Buffy has read the script.
>
> And it doesn't get a dash before it, just because, but let's not
> forget the ending. Walsh is making an awkwardly staged Slightly
> Sympathetic Villain Speech when she gets a possibly fatal case of
> bwahaha interruptus. Huh. Didn't see that coming at all, I must
> say. I'm worried that the Initiative plot might falter even more
> without a human face on it, but nothing that happens in future episodes
> will take away from that moment of surprise.
Are you sure? I mean, obviously nothing that happens later will take away
that moment of surprise itself, but not take away *from* it?
> The dialogue suggests that Buffy isn't in the psych class anymore,
> which would make sense given the timing. I wonder if UC[Sun]D is on
> quarters or semesters?
Tara has classes to go to. But nobody else seems to.
> Fury's got mother issues! Fury's got mother issues! It's what
> Freud would've said. But seriously, despite the coolness of the last
> moment, I don't really know what's up with Adam. Why would he spear
> his "mom?" (Never mind what Freud would say.)
Pre-emptive strike on a rival Big Bad. But although Walsh seems to have
programed Adam with the "fact" that she is his "Mommy", she evidently left
out the emotions that normally go with that. Possibly because she didn't
know about them.
>
> The Tale Of Xander And His Wacky Business Misadventures doesn't do
> much for me, nor does it add anything to TIIT. Can we just assume that
> no one bought the stuff and move on, or will we be forced to watch this
> thrilling story play out over the course of the next three seasons?
In itself the further adventures of Xander Inc may not be a highlight, but
they way they involve Anya (once she understands the rationale, to make
money to buy her stuff) certainly is. For me, the Xander-Anya scenes (and to
a lesser extent the Spike-Giles ones) save this episode from a much lower
rating.
>
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Pretty good in a non-thrilling way.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
This is the episode where the Initiative is fully revealed... and its pretty
naff. A vast Government conspiracy, apparently run by Walsh in her spare
time from being a college professor (these days, eveyone needs a 2nd job).
If Walsh's attempt to kill Buffy had been a secret, we could believe that
she was an individual psycho promoted to a position where she could do some
damage, but she openly discusses it with her deputy, Angleman. So this is a
vast US Government conspirancy which apparently routinely murders US
civilians who look likely to become a problem to it. One fantasy at a time
please.
In some ways, this is like Beer Bad, or an episode we haven't come to yet,
ohg juvpu sbe gur orarsvg bs gubfr jub pnaabg or fcbvyrq vf jurer gur jvyq
guvatf ner. Well, OK, in one way. What these episodes have in common is the
fact that the A story is crap, but they are partly saved by the B and C
stories. I rate TIIT a little lower than Beer Bad, mainly because its A
story is more central to the season as a whole, and its weakness is thus
more serious, but probably also because its B & C stories aren't quite as
good. As with Beer Bad (and the other one), when I first saw TIIT I think
the rating I gave it would equate to Bad, but over time the merits of the
peripheral stories have appealed to me more and more, and I'd now call it
Decent. It is my 107th favourite BtVS episode, 17th best in Season 4.
--
Apteryx
Apteryx
news:ipGdnebMDNu...@giganews.com...
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>> threads.
>> And now I'm far more curious than seems healthy about who's
>> giving and who's taking on the X/A side of things. Or maybe they
>> switch-hit?
>
> Willow looked like the same thought might have crossed her mind.
Possibly she was making a mental note ask Anya about it when Xander wasn't
around. She'd know Anya wasn't big with the secret-keeping
--
Apteryx
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> Still unclear on why Willow is so reluctant to talk about her new witch
> friend. Mrs. Q. is convinced that Tara is crushing on Willow. I
> actually happen to already know whether or not she's right, but I
> thought I'd update y'all on a first-timer's impressions.
spell tara backwards and you get a rat
tara is projection of amy sent by ethan to get willow to derat amy-rat
this is leading up to the season finale
where the forces of science and order represented by adam and riley
battle with the forces of magic and chaos represented by amy and tara
as they battle for willows soul
the wicca nee computer geek straddling the two worlds
the rose incident is a foreshadowing of the blood of willow
being skewered by adam who was trying to kill buffy but missed
and willow lays dying until she transcends abd becomes a goddess
season five is the dawning of a new age with oh my goddess willow
searching for a way to her own paradise dimension
filled with mochas and puppies and kittens and macintosh powerbooks
season eight has the second nudie musical
in which the words heart and on and wood are used in a whole new way
giving us insights into vampire sexuality
we would rather have not seen
(cindy williams has a cameo as tina the wonder turnip)
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
Rowan Hawthorn
That could be; there *are* unplumbed depths to our Willow
(maybe she and Oz really *did* play "Mistress of Pain"...)
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> them at the last moment. Walsh went from being amused by Riley's
> interest in Buffy at the end of 'A New Man' ("Oh, no. Spontaneous poetic
> exclamations. Lord, spare me college boys in love.") to some sort of
> psycho stalker woman.
the initiative is about control and order
buffy the girlfriend is amusing diversion which doesnt affect the initiative
buffy the vampire slayer is asking questions and poking her nose in
and challenges walsh for control of the initiative
Rowan Hawthorn
Could ya maybe get someone to film all that? I'll help
fund-raise. Especially the season eight part...
Don Sample
<mair_fheal-2740A...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> > I really do think that Crouse leaving was something that was sprung on
> > them at the last moment. Walsh went from being amused by Riley's
> > interest in Buffy at the end of 'A New Man' ("Oh, no. Spontaneous poetic
> > exclamations. Lord, spare me college boys in love.") to some sort of
> > psycho stalker woman.
>
> the initiative is about control and order
> buffy the girlfriend is amusing diversion which doesnt affect the initiative
> buffy the vampire slayer is asking questions and poking her nose in
> and challenges walsh for control of the initiative
But Walsh already knew that Buffy was the Slayer when she said that.
angelbuffy0
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
>
> spell tara backwards and you get a rat
>
Hey I resemble that comment.....uh I mean resent.
Tara
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"angelbuffy0" <ta...@and-then-some.com> wrote:
chasing amy
(Harmony) Watcher
news:dsample-53B644...@news.giganews.com...
> In article
> <mair_fheal-2740A...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
> mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > I really do think that Crouse leaving was something that was sprung on
> > > them at the last moment. Walsh went from being amused by Riley's
> > > interest in Buffy at the end of 'A New Man' ("Oh, no. Spontaneous
poetic
> > > exclamations. Lord, spare me college boys in love.") to some sort of
> > > psycho stalker woman.
> >
> > the initiative is about control and order
> > buffy the girlfriend is amusing diversion which doesnt affect the
initiative
> > buffy the vampire slayer is asking questions and poking her nose in
> > and challenges walsh for control of the initiative
>
> But Walsh already knew that Buffy was the Slayer when she said that.
>
fhcrevbe jbznayl fvkgu frafr, zhfg fheryl unir frafrq gung "Ohssl, gur
inzcver fynlre, jbhyq oernx qbja guvf qbbe" (pna'g erfvfg gur hetr bs
fgrnyvat n dhbgr sebz n yngre frnfba) naq gung fur jnf ybfvat ure "obl" gb
Ohssl. Pbzr gb guvax bs vg, ure bja qrfpevcgvba bs urefrys va
"uggc://oqo.ieln.arg/oqo/pyvc.cuc?pyvc=1245" jnfa'g gbb sne bss sebz lbhe
"cflpub fgnyxre jbzna".
==(Harmony) Watcher==
(Harmony) Watcher
news:9OGdnT5JQsRl5sPZ...@rcn.net...
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
> news:1147036738.7...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
>
> > A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
> > review threads.
> >
> >
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Four, Episode 13: "The I In Team"
> > (or "The New Pornographers - _Quintuplet Cinema_")
> > Writers: David Fury
> > Director: James A. Contner
> >
>
> > Short takes about the A-story:
> > What exactly was the relationship between Riley and Walsh? I'd
> > assume it's a parent-figure deal similar to Buffy and Giles; am
> > I missing anything that'd contradict that?
>
> "Parent-figure" is a pretty good description.
>
vairagvba/cbffrffvba/cebcregl.
==(Harmony) Watcher==
vague disclaimer
Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Finally, how could I end the review without mentioning the hilarious
> > series of jokes leading up to "everyone's getting spanked but
> > me?" Hee. I'm sure Wil would find plenty of volunteers on this
> > NG.
>
> <Hand shoots up immediately>
*Pushes in front of Rowan*
--
A vague disclaimer is nobody's friend
omnie
> Since I read Eddings obsessively when I was a kid, "Polgara" is one
> of those names I can't hear without thinking of those books. I
> assumed that it must've had some other connotation too, so I
> Wikipediaed it. The writers apparently got it from a username
> (probably an Eddings fan) on one of the _Buffy_ forums.
Ooh, I'd wondered the same thing, and assumed the same thing, but
didn't do the part with the research. Nifty.
I've never been a big fan of this whole Initiative storyline, in part
because it's so unrealistic. I mean, vampires, demons, sure, not
realistic either, but they're all consistent with the show's premise,
so I'll happily go with that. Buffy and the Gang take on...a secret
military organization? Well, ok then. Some of the themes the
storyline hit on could have been fascinating (naq lbh frr gurz fuvar
guebhtu va Erfgyrff, jvgu Evyrl naq Nqnz-bhg-bs-pbfghzr qbvat gurve
gnyx nobhg ohvyqvat sbegf bhg bs cvyybjf juvyr Ohssl svtugf gur erny
zbafgref), but, alas.
kenm47
IMO, what's unrealistic is The Initiative's lack of real clue about
Sunnydale, Slayers, Watchers, the demon world, etc, especially after
OOM,OOS. Of course, that could have been a different branch of the
government/intelligence not talking to another.
I also found cool calm collected Maggie written all over the place,
from her panic in Wild at Heart and loud public hallway chattering,
through to the irrational behaviour here, to the stupidity of turning
her back on her creation. It seemed to be a sign that the ME center
would not hold. A sad portent?
Happily, it did not terribly negatively impact on some great, IMO,
other episodes in the season.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Rowan Hawthorn
> In article <ipGdnebMDNu...@giganews.com>,
> Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Finally, how could I end the review without mentioning the hilarious
>>> series of jokes leading up to "everyone's getting spanked but
>>> me?" Hee. I'm sure Wil would find plenty of volunteers on this
>>> NG.
>> <Hand shoots up immediately>
>
> *Pushes in front of Rowan*
<mutters something about "ratzen fratzen jiggen-fraggenitz
line-breakers...">
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> Sunnydale, Slayers, Watchers, the demon world, etc, especially after
> OOM,OOS. Of course, that could have been a different branch of the
> government/intelligence not talking to another.
that they were in sunnydale shows some cluefulness
they might not have known specifically that the hellmouth was a particular hole
the slayers and watchers were supposed to be secret
buffy may well have been the first slayer to meet the government
naq snvgu gur svefg fynlre va n cevfba vafgrnq bs pbhapvy bhovyrggr
they knew about demons
they just misinterpreted what they were
they were being scientific and looking at solely as a bizarre biology
(theyre just animals)
rather than consider there might be something beyond their science
(a real world failing as well)
serq jnf nyfb erfrnepuvat gb svaq n culfvpf haqreylvat zntvp
> I also found cool calm collected Maggie written all over the place,
> from her panic in Wild at Heart and loud public hallway chattering,
> through to the irrational behaviour here, to the stupidity of turning
> her back on her creation. It seemed to be a sign that the ME center
> would not hold. A sad portent?
walsh had to be written as an important character from the season start
but not reveal her whole story until within the season
so her actions sort of reflect the viewers knowledge of her
toward the end she becomes concerned about her authority
theres really a limit to how far you can order people around
without executing or imprisoning them
(naq fvapr evyrl vf fpurqhyrq gb or xvyyrq
naq erfheerpgrq gb envfr pnva orfvqr nqnz
fur jnagf gb xrrc uvz va gur vavgvngvir abg yrnirajbegu)
and doesnt react well to buffys challenge to her brittle authority
nqnz jnf fhccbfrq gb unir ohvyg va vauvovgbef
fb gung ur jbhyq borl jnyfuf nhgubevgl
ohg ur uvzfrys abgrf gurl jrerag jbexvat
Exp315
Opus the Penguin wrote:
>
> How can you mention that without mentioning Walsh's strident cries of
> "Riley!" That out and out RUINED the scene for me. It was completely
> out of character for her and it made her look like a weak ninny who
> couldn't possibly have commanded his respect or affection.
Yes, I agree with that. You could make a case that she thought of him
more as her son than her military subordinate, but even so...
Joss sometimes said in the DVD commentaries that there's little things
he would have fixed if he had time, but the relentless schedule
requirements of weekly television prevented it. For example, he didn't
like the way the last scene of Hush between Buffy and Riley was cut, or
the way that Spike got a little too vigorous fighting his way out of
the Initiative with his chip already installed. Maybe this is one of
them.
Exp315
like:
"Don't worry, I've patrolled in this halter many times."
"Any questions? ...<sigh> Buffy."
George W Harris
:IMO, what's unrealistic is The Initiative's lack of real clue about
:Sunnydale, Slayers, Watchers, the demon world, etc, especially after
:OOM,OOS.
Yeah, the military would never rush gung-ho
into a hostile situation with no clear idea of the
opposition it might face or the situation it might create.
Oh, wait.
--
"It is always a simple matter to drag people along whether it is a
democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist
dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the
bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them
they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of
patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every
country."
-Hermann Goering
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.
Exp315
not-much-lamented Maggie Walsh than anyone realized at the time. This
is where Buffy learned the style of commanding a quasi-military
organization, in this brief interaction with MW - and it obviously made
an impression, since she greatly admired MW during this brief time. For
better or worse, this is the experience that Buffy will drawn on in the
future...
John Briggs
> In article <1147046101.8...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> "Kevin" <kl...@ucsc.edu> wrote:
>
>> KenM47 wrote:
>>> Horace LaBadie <hwlab...@nospam.highstream.net> wrote:
>>>> Pretty simple explanation, actually. This represents the second
>>>> "actor availability" crisis that Joss faced in Season Four.
>>>
>>> Has this ever been formally confirmed? There were also rumors, IIRC,
>>> about LC being difficult?
>>
>>
>> In an interview (for the Watcher's Guide), Crouse said:
>>
>> "Well, I'm very sad to leave the show. When I went to Joss a
>> few weeks ago, I said, 'Joss, what do you think is going to happen,
>> how are we going to develop this character?' He gleefully said,
>> 'Oh, you're going to create a monster, and it's going to kill you.
>> You're going to die, it's going to be great.' Well, great for you.
>> I love doing the show."
>>
>> Elsewhere, I think the rumor was that her agent had mistakenly(?)
>> told ME that her availability was short-term, but she didn't find
>> out -- until Joss told her about Walsh's demise. I don't know if
>> this is true.
>
> like that, even if it isn't their fault.
It was at least partly their fault, as they were probably arguing over
money.
> I really do think that Crouse leaving was something that was sprung on
> them at the last moment. Walsh went from being amused by Riley's
> interest in Buffy at the end of 'A New Man' ("Oh, no. Spontaneous
> poetic exclamations. Lord, spare me college boys in love.") to some
> sort of psycho stalker woman.
Yes -I think that was always supposed to happen, just not so quckly :-)
--
John Briggs
eli...@gmail.com
didn't have time to read all the comments. This scene stuck out for me:
Riley: I am how they trained me.
Buffy: They? Who they?
Riley: You know, the government. Plucked me out of special op
training for this.
Buffy: What did they tell you it was for?
Riley: They didn't. In the military you learn to follow orders. Not
ask questions.
Buffy: I don't understand. Aren't you curious about all the science
and research stuff they're doing?
Riley: Hm. I know all I need to know. We're doing good here.
Protecting the public. Removing the subterrestrial threat. It's work
worth doing.
His attitude is pretty much the exact opposite of Buffy's - we know
that Giles threw out the rule book when he became her Watcher, and she
never takes orders. In a way he is actually echoing Kendra.
vague disclaimer
"Exp315" <Exp...@canada.com> wrote:
Somebody else who didn't read the 'please no spoilers' request.
Stephen Tempest
>> Mrs. Q. is convinced that Tara is crushing on Willow. I
>> actually happen to already know whether or not she's right, but I
>> thought I'd update y'all on a first-timer's impressions.
>
>Jr-ryy, gurl qvqa'g rknpgyl yrnir ivrjref thrffvat nobhg
>*gung* cneg, naljnl.
Radhvevat zvaqf qb jnag gb xabj jurer Jvyybj fyrcg gung avtug, fvapr
vg pyrneyl jnfa'g va ure bja orq...
Stephen
Rowan Hawthorn
*Fbzr* vadhvevat zvaqf jnag gb xabj *vs* Jvyybj fyrcg gung avtug, naq
jul gurl pbhyqa'g unir svyzrq fbzr bs gubfr fprarf vafgrnq bs fb zhpu
O/E obvaxntr...
Arbitrar Of Quality
> This is the episode where the Initiative is fully revealed... and its pretty
> naff. A vast Government conspiracy, apparently run by Walsh in her spare
> time from being a college professor (these days, eveyone needs a 2nd job).
> If Walsh's attempt to kill Buffy had been a secret, we could believe that
> she was an individual psycho promoted to a position where she could do some
> damage, but she openly discusses it with her deputy, Angleman. So this is a
> vast US Government conspirancy which apparently routinely murders US
> civilians who look likely to become a problem to it. One fantasy at a time
> please.
A subgroup in the govenment, anyway. Sinister organizations that
answer only to themselves, hidden within and funded by the Washington
beaurocracy, are a TV/movie/etc. staple. Not too realistic, of course,
but I'm used to it.
-AOQ
rrh...@acme.com
Opus the Penguin wrote:
> Michael Ikeda (mmi...@erols.com) wrote:
>
> > Don't recall them saying, but MOST of the UC campuses (including UC
> > Santa Barbara) are on the quarter system. The exceptions are UC
> > Berkeley and the new UC Merced campus.
>
> No kidding? I'd never heard of UC Merced until just now. I guess my own
> reply was out of date.
UC Merced is new, which is to say it was founded since I went to UC,
which may not qualify as "new" to everyone. But in any case, I can
personally attest that UC Santa Barbara was on the quarter system
*mumble-mumble* years ago when I went there. I can also personally
attest that Santa Barbara is pretty much entirely unlike Sunnydale.
For one thing, the housing prices are much much higher (undoubtedly due
to the absence of a Hell Mouth).
Richard R. Hershberger
Jeff Jacoby
The NSA comes pretty close to your discription (though
I don't know how "sinister" they actually are. And,
no, I don't believe they're anything like how they are
portrayed in "Enemy of the State".)
Jeff
Exp315
Yes, I did read it, and hence my comment was deliberately vague enough
not to spoil anyone, vg. Lighten up!
Michael Ikeda
news:1147116815.2...@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com:
UC Merced is VERY new. According to the UC Merced website, graduate
classes started in Fall 2004 and undergraduate classes started in
Fall 2005.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
peachy ashie passion
> Stephen Tempest wrote:
>
>> Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>
>>>> Mrs. Q. is convinced that Tara is crushing on Willow. I
>>>> actually happen to already know whether or not she's right, but I
>>>> thought I'd update y'all on a first-timer's impressions.
>>>
>>> Jr-ryy, gurl qvqa'g rknpgyl yrnir ivrjref thrffvat nobhg *gung* cneg,
>>> naljnl.
>>
>>
>> Radhvevat zvaqf qb jnag gb xabj jurer Jvyybj fyrcg gung avtug, fvapr
>> vg pyrneyl jnfa'g va ure bja orq...
>
>
> *Fbzr* vadhvevat zvaqf jnag gb xabj *vs* Jvyybj fyrcg gung avtug, naq
> jul gurl pbhyqa'g unir svyzrq fbzr bs gubfr fprarf vafgrnq bs fb zhpu
> O/E obvaxntr...
>
Can I just say AMEN to THAT sentiment!
angelbuffy0
Don Sample
"angelbuffy0" <ta...@and-then-some.com> wrote:
> Even "vague" comments are considered spoilery.
There is no way that any sane person could consider what Exp315 said to
be any sort of spoiler.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Opus the Penguin wrote:
> >
> > How can you mention that without mentioning Walsh's strident cries of
> > "Riley!" That out and out RUINED the scene for me. It was completely
> > out of character for her and it made her look like a weak ninny who
> > couldn't possibly have commanded his respect or affection.
>
> Yes, I agree with that. You could make a case that she thought of him
> more as her son than her military subordinate, but even so...
I think that's the key. He was like a son to her, and he'd probably
never caught her lying to him like this. It was a special case.
Anyway, didn't bother me.
-AOQ
drifter
> In article <1147126983.9...@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "angelbuffy0" <ta...@and-then-some.com> wrote:
>
>> Even "vague" comments are considered spoilery.
>
> There is no way that any sane person could consider what Exp315 said
> to be any sort of spoiler.
He said that Buffy draws on her experience at some time in the future.
He gave away EVERYTHING!
--
Kel
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own."
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
rrh...@acme.com wrote:
hp fhaalqnyr jnf gnxra bss gur jro fvgr
qhr gb vg naq erfg bs gbja snyyvat vagb n tvnag fvaxubyr
pnhfrq ol ndhvsre qrcyrgvba
be engf jvgu pvtnerggrf
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Exp315" <Exp...@canada.com> wrote:
are you referring to season nine finale
when willow gets caught in a time storm
taken back to medieval france
and gets mistaken for jeanne darc
DysgraphicProgrammer
Rowan Hawthorn wrote:
> vague disclaimer wrote:
> > In article <ipGdnebMDNu...@giganews.com>,
> > Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>> Finally, how could I end the review without mentioning the hilarious
> >>> series of jokes leading up to "everyone's getting spanked but
> >>> me?" Hee. I'm sure Wil would find plenty of volunteers on this
> >>> NG.
> >> <Hand shoots up immediately>
> >
> > *Pushes in front of Rowan*
>
> <mutters something about "ratzen fratzen jiggen-fraggenitz
> line-breakers...">
*Slips in with a paddle and handcuffs while everyone else fights over
order.*
Rowan Hawthorn
NOW, WAIT JUST A COTTON-PICKIN' MINUTE, HERE!!!!
(Why the hell didn't *I* think of that...?)
angelbuffy0
Don Sample wrote:
>
> There is no way that any sane person could consider what Exp315 said to
> be any sort of spoiler.
>
Nice to know what you think of me.
peachy ashie passion
> DysgraphicProgrammer wrote:
>
>> Rowan Hawthorn wrote:
>>
>>> vague disclaimer wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <ipGdnebMDNu...@giganews.com>,
>>>> Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Finally, how could I end the review without mentioning the hilarious
>>>>>> series of jokes leading up to "everyone's getting spanked but
>>>>>> me?" Hee. I'm sure Wil would find plenty of volunteers on this
>>>>>> NG.
>>>>>
>>>>> <Hand shoots up immediately>
>>>>
>>>> *Pushes in front of Rowan*
>>>
>>> <mutters something about "ratzen fratzen jiggen-fraggenitz
>>> line-breakers...">
>>
>>
>> *Slips in with a paddle and handcuffs while everyone else fights over
>> order.*
>>
>
> NOW, WAIT JUST A COTTON-PICKIN' MINUTE, HERE!!!!
>
> (Why the hell didn't *I* think of that...?)
>
Dunno! And where's MY turn??!?
vague disclaimer
"DysgraphicProgrammer" <Matthew...@gmail.com> wrote:
*Remembers trick he learned trying to get served in the LSE bar on a
Friday night*
*wins*
vague disclaimer
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> In article <1147126983.9...@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "angelbuffy0" <ta...@and-then-some.com> wrote:
>
> > Even "vague" comments are considered spoilery.
>
> There is no way that any sane person could consider what Exp315 said to
> be any sort of spoiler.
Apart from the strong hint that Buffy jvyy raq hc yrnqvat na nezl
(engure guna n onaq bs pvivyvna vafheerpgvbavfgf)?
peachy ashie passion
> In article <1147143437.9...@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> "DysgraphicProgrammer" <Matthew...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Rowan Hawthorn wrote:
>>
>>>vague disclaimer wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <ipGdnebMDNu...@giganews.com>,
>>>> Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>Finally, how could I end the review without mentioning the hilarious
>>>>>>series of jokes leading up to "everyone's getting spanked but
>>>>>>me?" Hee. I'm sure Wil would find plenty of volunteers on this
>>>>>>NG.
>>>>>
>>>>><Hand shoots up immediately>
>>>>
>>>>*Pushes in front of Rowan*
>>>
>>><mutters something about "ratzen fratzen jiggen-fraggenitz
>>>line-breakers...">
>>
>>*Slips in with a paddle and handcuffs while everyone else fights over
>>order.*
>
>
> *Remembers trick he learned trying to get served in the LSE bar on a
> Friday night*
>
> *wins*
What's the trick?
Don Sample
vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
> In article <dsample-0FD58B...@news.giganews.com>,
> Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
>
> > In article <1147126983.9...@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> > "angelbuffy0" <ta...@and-then-some.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Even "vague" comments are considered spoilery.
> >
> > There is no way that any sane person could consider what Exp315 said to
> > be any sort of spoiler.
>
> Apart from the strong hint that Buffy will end up leading an army
> (rather than a band of civilian insurrectionists)?
Gee, what episode does Buffy join the army in? I must have missed it.
Maggie Walsh didn't lead an army anyway. She led a military research
project. Does this mean that Buffy's going to start treating Scooby
research parties like military funded research?
As for commanding bunches of people, we've already seen Buffy commanding
more people than Walsh had under her command, in 'Graduation Day.' And
most of the time we see Walsh giving orders she's doing it to half a
dozen people, or less. Gee, how many Scoobies does Buffy command?
Toward the end of season 3 it was half a dozen, and it's going to get
back up there again soon.
Buffy's command style changes with time and her experiences. Of course
Buffy's experience with the Initiative is going to affect her command
style, as does her experience with the Watchers, and other things in her
life. Saying that her exposure to Maggie Walsh is going to have an
effect on how she handles command is like saying water's wet.
(As for the actual command style that Buffy adopts, I really don't see
much resemblance to the way that Walsh handled things.)
Sam
Apteryx wrote:
> This is the episode where the Initiative is fully revealed... and its pretty
> naff. A vast Government conspiracy, apparently run by Walsh in her spare
> time from being a college professor (these days, eveyone needs a 2nd job).
> If Walsh's attempt to kill Buffy had been a secret, we could believe that
> she was an individual psycho promoted to a position where she could do some
> damage, but she openly discusses it with her deputy, Angleman. So this is a
> vast US Government conspirancy which apparently routinely murders US
> civilians who look likely to become a problem to it. One fantasy at a time
> please.
>
Oh, right. Because the US government would *never* have any black ops
programs going on which might abuse the rights of American citizens.
Look up the MKULTRA program sometime. It's not just something some
tinfoil hat-wearers came up with, it was a real program broken open by
the New York Times in the 1970s and subjected to various Congressional
investigations. Turns out the CIA was looking for a way to create mind
control drugs, and their method of doing so was to try out every
psychotropic chemical they could get their hands on, on unsuspecting
members of the United States public. I think my favorite part of the
program was the bit where they set up brothels in various US cities,
and then administered powerful hallucinogens to unwitting Johns so they
could then follow them around and see what happened. *This is on the
historical record.*
The program resulted in multiple recorded civilian deaths -- and those
are just the ones that were admitted to. The people who ran it,
although investigated, were never actually punished.
The goals and methods of the Intitiative are no more outrageous than a
number of government programs which, thanks to history and
declassification of files, we know happened as a matter of historical
fact. Well, I mean, other than the supernatural and scifi bits. But
believe me, if you dropped the whizkids who thought up MKULTRA into the
Buffyverse, you can bet they'd come out looking a lot like Maggie
Walsh.
--Sam
Sam
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> A subgroup in the govenment, anyway. Sinister organizations that
> answer only to themselves, hidden within and funded by the Washington
> beaurocracy, are a TV/movie/etc. staple. Not too realistic, of course,
> but I'm used to it.
>
> -AOQ
Not too realistic?
The US Congress conducted an internal investigation a few years back to
try to work out exactly how many secret projects and programs that
answer only to themselves, hidden within and funded by the Washington
beauracracy, were actually operating at that time. The conclusion was
that they didn't have the clearance to find out in any specific detail,
but the best estimate they could form based on the available evidence
was that the number was in the hundreds.
They're called "special access programs," and you're not allowed to
know they exist even if you have Top Secret clearance. The only way you
get to know about a SAP is if the people running the SAP in question
decide you need to know about it. The US government spends between $40
and $80 billion a year funding them.
And before someone accuses me of being a raving nut -- don't take my
word for it. You can read it yourself in Senate Document 105-2, the
1997 Report of the Commission on Protecting and Reducing Government
Secrecy. Link:
http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/commissions/secrecy/index.html
Scroll down to the bit about "Special Access Programs."
(Saying I'm a conspiracy theorist is probably going too far; let's call
me a conspiracy hobbyist.)
vague disclaimer
peachy ashie passion <exquisi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> vague disclaimer wrote:
>
> > In article <1147143437.9...@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> > "DysgraphicProgrammer" <Matthew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Rowan Hawthorn wrote:
> >>
> >>>vague disclaimer wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>In article <ipGdnebMDNu...@giganews.com>,
> >>>> Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>Finally, how could I end the review without mentioning the hilarious
> >>>>>>series of jokes leading up to "everyone's getting spanked but
> >>>>>>me?" Hee. I'm sure Wil would find plenty of volunteers on this
> >>>>>>NG.
> >>>>>
> >>>>><Hand shoots up immediately>
> >>>>
> >>>>*Pushes in front of Rowan*
> >>>
> >>><mutters something about "ratzen fratzen jiggen-fraggenitz
> >>>line-breakers...">
> >>
> >>*Slips in with a paddle and handcuffs while everyone else fights over
> >>order.*
> >
> >
> > *Remembers trick he learned trying to get served in the LSE bar on a
> > Friday night*
> >
> > *wins*
>
> What's the trick?
Hah! You're not going to lure me into your trap that easily.
vague disclaimer
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> In article <l64o-1rj5-4E4D1...@mercury.nildram.net>,
> vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
>
> > In article <dsample-0FD58B...@news.giganews.com>,
> > Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> >
> > > In article <1147126983.9...@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> > > "angelbuffy0" <ta...@and-then-some.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Even "vague" comments are considered spoilery.
> > >
> > > There is no way that any sane person could consider what Exp315 said to
> > > be any sort of spoiler.
> >
> > Apart from the strong hint that Buffy will end up leading an army
> > (rather than a band of civilian insurrectionists)?
>
> Gee, what episode does Buffy join the army in? I must have missed it.
I was thinking more of the one where she forms an army.
"Buffy learned the style of commanding a quasi-military
organization"
If that doesn't suggest that there is *going to be* a quasi-military
organisation then I don't know what is. The emphasis is certainly more
on the quasi than the military but the Wanna-Slay Brigade were
characterised as an army at war.
That makes exp315's comment, vague and (imo) incorrect as it was, a
spoiler, since it happens in the future.
A shame, 'cos a second of rot-13 might have made room for a discussion
os whether Walsh's style really did shape Buffy's S7 style (I don't
think so).
> Maggie Walsh didn't lead an army anyway. She led a military research
> project. Does this mean that Buffy's going to start treating Scooby
> research parties like military funded research?
>
> As for commanding bunches of people, we've already seen Buffy commanding
> more people than Walsh had under her command, in 'Graduation Day.' And
> most of the time we see Walsh giving orders she's doing it to half a
> dozen people, or less. Gee, how many Scoobies does Buffy command?
> Toward the end of season 3 it was half a dozen, and it's going to get
> back up there again soon.
>
> Buffy's command style changes with time and her experiences. Of course
> Buffy's experience with the Initiative is going to affect her command
> style, as does her experience with the Watchers, and other things in her
> life. Saying that her exposure to Maggie Walsh is going to have an
> effect on how she handles command is like saying water's wet.
But saying it will shape how she runs a quasi-military ...blah...blah...
>
> (As for the actual command style that Buffy adopts, I really don't see
> much resemblance to the way that Walsh handled things.)
--
Don Sample
vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
> In article <dsample-49B3A2...@news.giganews.com>,
> Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
>
> > In article <l64o-1rj5-4E4D1...@mercury.nildram.net>,
> > vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
> >
> > > In article <dsample-0FD58B...@news.giganews.com>,
> > > Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > In article <1147126983.9...@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> > > > "angelbuffy0" <ta...@and-then-some.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Even "vague" comments are considered spoilery.
> > > >
> > > > There is no way that any sane person could consider what Exp315 said to
> > > > be any sort of spoiler.
> > >
> > > Apart from the strong hint that Buffy will end up leading an army
> > > (rather than a band of civilian insurrectionists)?
> >
> > Gee, what episode does Buffy join the army in? I must have missed it.
>
> I was thinking more of the one where she forms an army.
>
> "Buffy learned the style of commanding a quasi-military
> organization"
>
> If that doesn't suggest that there is *going to be* a quasi-military
> organisation then I don't know what is. The emphasis is certainly more
> on the quasi than the military but the Wanna-Slay Brigade were
> characterised as an army at war.
In what way was it a quasi-military organization? Buffy calling it an
army, and people calling her the general was about the only
quasi-military thing about it. There was nothing military about the way
it was really run.
Police forces and fire departments are set up as quasi-military
organizations. Saying that Buffy is going to run a quasi-military
organization could mean she takes over the Sunnydale PD. (Ghu knows
they could use some competent leadership.)
> That makes exp315's comment, vague and (imo) incorrect as it was, a
> spoiler, since it happens in the future.
So now *incorrect* statements about future episodes are spoilers?
>
> A shame, 'cos a second of rot-13 might have made room for a discussion
> os whether Walsh's style really did shape Buffy's S7 style (I don't
> think so).
Giles' style in season 7 was closer to Walsh's. (Distract Buffy while
sending someone else off to assassinate someone he thought was an
inconvenient distraction to her.) And if you wanted to discuss that,
all you had to do was start a new thread. (Or ROT-13 your comments in a
reply to Exp315's comments.)
JJ Karhu
wrote:
>In article <l64o-1rj5-2CEE8...@mercury.nildram.net>,
> vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
>
>> In article <dsample-49B3A2...@news.giganews.com>,
>> Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
>>
>> > In article <l64o-1rj5-4E4D1...@mercury.nildram.net>,
>> > vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > > In article <dsample-0FD58B...@news.giganews.com>,
>> > > Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > In article <1147126983.9...@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
>> > > > "angelbuffy0" <ta...@and-then-some.com> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Gurer vf ab jnl gung nal fnar crefba pbhyq pbafvqre jung Rkc315 fnvq gb
>> > > > or nal fbeg bs fcbvyre.
>> > >
>> > > Ncneg sebz gur fgebat uvag gung Ohssl jvyy raq hc yrnqvat na nezl
>> >
>>
>> V jnf guvaxvat zber bs gur bar jurer fur sbezf na nezl.
>>
>> "Ohssl yrnearq gur fglyr bs pbzznaqvat n dhnfv-zvyvgnel
>> betnavmngvba"
>>
>> Vs gung qbrfa'g fhttrfg gung gurer vf *tbvat gb or* n dhnfv-zvyvgnel
>> betnavfngvba gura V qba'g xabj jung vf. Gur rzcunfvf vf pregnvayl zber
>> ba gur dhnfv guna gur zvyvgnel ohg gur Jnaan-Fynl Oevtnqr jrer
>> punenpgrevfrq nf na nezl ng jne.
>
>Va jung jnl jnf vg n dhnfv-zvyvgnel betnavmngvba? Ohssl pnyyvat vg na
>nezl, naq crbcyr pnyyvat ure gur trareny jnf nobhg gur bayl
>dhnfv-zvyvgnel guvat nobhg vg. Gurer jnf abguvat zvyvgnel nobhg gur jnl
>vg jnf ernyyl eha.
>
>Cbyvpr sbeprf naq sver qrcnegzragf ner frg hc nf dhnfv-zvyvgnel
>betnavmngvbaf. Fnlvat gung Ohssl vf tbvat gb eha n dhnfv-zvyvgnel
>betnavmngvba pbhyq zrna fur gnxrf bire gur Fhaalqnyr CQ. (Tuh xabjf
>gurl pbhyq hfr fbzr pbzcrgrag yrnqrefuvc.)
>
>
>> Gung znxrf rkc315'f pbzzrag, inthr naq (vzb) vapbeerpg nf vg jnf, n
>> fcbvyre, fvapr vg unccraf va gur shgher.
>
>Fb abj *vapbeerpg* fgngrzragf nobhg shgher rcvfbqrf ner fcbvyref?
>>
>> N funzr, 'pbf n frpbaq bs ebg-13 zvtug unir znqr ebbz sbe n qvfphffvba
>> bf jurgure Jnyfu'f fglyr ernyyl qvq funcr Ohssl'f F7 fglyr (V qba'g
>> guvax fb).
>
>Tvyrf' fglyr va frnfba 7 jnf pybfre gb Jnyfu'f. (Qvfgenpg Ohssl juvyr
>fraqvat fbzrbar ryfr bss gb nffnffvangr fbzrbar ur gubhtug jnf na
>vapbairavrag qvfgenpgvba gb ure.) Naq vs lbh jnagrq gb qvfphff gung,
>nyy lbh unq gb qb jnf fgneg n arj guernq. (Be EBG-13 lbhe pbzzragf va n
>ercyl gb Rkc315'f pbzzragf.)
Fvapr lbh punatrq gur fhowrpg ohg qvq ABG fgneg n arj guernq, gurfr
ner nyy fgvyy vapyhqrq va NbD'f erivrj guernq.
Naq jung nobhg gur pbzzrag nobhg gur *frpbaq* zhfvpny rcvfbqr? Gung
bar fcbvyf gur cerfrapr bs n zhfvpny rcvfbqr fgenvtug njnl. V sbetrg
jub tnir gung bar njnl.
// JJ
One Bit Shy
news:1147036738.7...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> And so we continue putting the pieces together in our string of
> acceptable but not thoroughly exciting TV. The whole Initiative
> storyline has been better in theory than in execution, I think. And
> I'd agree with those who argue that the show's in a bit of a rut
> because of it; I thought "The Initiative" lacked sizzle, then we
> pushed that story more to the background during the P/SB/H trifecta of
> cool, and the series has been dragging again with the last few
> episodes.
The pacing of the season does sometimes strike me as odd - particularly how
so much of the Initiative story gets clumped here. The story line probably
kind of dictates that, but still it's quite the contrast with how spread out
the Faith and Angel story lines were in S3.
Anyway, the Initiative story clearly doesn't engage people as broadly and
deeply as the arc stories we're accustomed to. I suppose the failure of
Riley to excite personally has a lot to do with it. And maybe just the idea
of some government/military/scientific group that isn't even interested in
the mythic qualities of living on the Hellmouth intruding into the story is
off putting.
I don't entirely grasp the distaste myself. I think what the Initiative arc
does to Riley's personal story is fascinating. Besides, we have to let
someone besides Buffy be tested once in a while. And the Initiative itself
is an interesting contrast to the Scoobies. Science vs. magic.
Proffessionals vs. amateurs. Organization vs. catch as catch can.
Dedicated teamwork vs. everybody running off with their own personal lives.
With, of course, all of the elements working differently than initially
presented. It's not the best of the season arc stories. Actually, I'd
agree that it's the worst. But something has to be last. That doesn't make
it bad. I continue to enjoy it. Not least for just being different.
> Now, that being said - and I'm going to give away the rating right
> here at the top - TIIT does manage to earn a Good, for three reasons.
> First, there are a few images that're quite effective. Second, I
> like what they're doing with the B-story. Third, it doesn't drag
> its feet.
Excellent for me.
> - The flashes between violence and sex. It's a cool way to tell that
> part of the story, the camera work is hypnotic, and the music is pretty
> ear-catching too.
Ah, sex and violence. Of course it's more than that. This is their great
moment of union - living life as one. I really like the moment when Riley
pulls out his club (or whatever it is) and the two of them charge the demon
together. I think that may be their single happiest moment.
> - The next morning, Buffy looking around in a panic to see whether
> he's still there. She's not getting over that one any time soon,
> is she? (Or maybe she was just afraid of finding herself pregnant with
> a demon litter.)
Well, I think it's the first time we've seen the guy be there in the
morning. That ought to count for something.
> - The use of the monitors during pivotal scenes worked for me. Maggie
> Walsh: Video Voyeur should elicit some nightmares.
Yep. What a transition from Buffy and Riley's joy. <shiver> There's also
the later shot of Maggie sipping her coffee while she watches Buffy die.
(She thinks.)
> And then there's
> Buffy's you-shouldn't-have-fucked-with-me speech seen on the same
> screens; not strategically sound, maybe, but badass heroics are always
> fun.
Maybe, but she never got to show Maggie what a real slayer is all about like
she promised.
I like the way this is staged - seeing Buffy come into focus behind Maggie
as Riley tries to absorb the news of her death. Maggie getting caught in
the horrible lie - her world suddenly starting to crumble. And Riley seeing
his world crumble too. Buffy unaware of the impact she's having - just
determined to deliver her threat. Three unique passions at play.
> - Riley's silent stride out of the episode.
>
> And it doesn't get a dash before it, just because, but let's not
> forget the ending. Walsh is making an awkwardly staged Slightly
> Sympathetic Villain Speech when she gets a possibly fatal case of
> bwahaha interruptus.
Heh. Nice line - though I think in truth Maggie was more worried than that.
> Huh. Didn't see that coming at all, I must
> say. I'm worried that the Initiative plot might falter even more
> without a human face on it, but nothing that happens in future episodes
> will take away from that moment of surprise.
I agree. Sometimes I wonder how things might have played had they kept her
on. But I think her ending here is fine - and the surprise more than makes
the decisio worthwhile.
> Short takes about the A-story:
> What exactly was the relationship between Riley and Walsh? I'd
> assume it's a parent-figure deal similar to Buffy and Giles; am I
> missing anything that'd contradict that?
I don't think so. Though someone else calls her Mommy.
>>From the "Know When To Kill A Joke" Department: The "if you'd
> rather wait" scene is okay, even if it's a bit obviously not about
> sex to someone familiar with the rhythm of the series. But then did it
> really need the "you said it was big..." coda?
Yes, because many people will miss the connection, letting the ones who get
it feel clever.
(Ok. I admit it. I missed it the first time. So it falls in the category
of something discovered later, which I enjoy.)
> Fury's got mother issues! Fury's got mother issues! It's what
> Freud would've said. But seriously, despite the coolness of the last
> moment, I don't really know what's up with Adam. Why would he spear
> his "mom?" (Never mind what Freud would say.)
If Maggie was your mother, wouldn't you be tempted to spear her?
> So Buffy and her new commando pals are too cool to hang out with the
> rest of the core cast anymore. I like that aspect of this show. This
> is how friends just kinda drift apart, without bad intentions.
> Whenever Willow confronts Buffy about her insensitive behavior, she's
> suitably apologetic. No one particularly wants the formerly close
> bonds between this group to fray at the edges, and there's no reason
> they won't continue to consider themselves friends. But Buffy and
> Willow are each involved in things the other wouldn't entirely
> understand. Even Xander, who's only around because he wants to stay
> close to the two of them, has a former vengeance demon occupying a lot
> of his time. Things aren't the way they were in high school, which
> has been a big background element of the last few episodes, and to a
> lesser extent S4 as whole; I'm glad to be realizing that "Doomed"
> was only part of that story. Call it a consequence of people with
> diverging interests who're transplanted to a new setting. (Maybe
> they need a good crisis to force them together, like none of them being
> safe for a shadowy government group?)
Yes, I think that's mainly true, though I think it's been a tad bigger part
of the season than you suggest.
Drifting apart isn't all. There are tensions at work too. You describe it
as Willow confronting Buffy about her insensitive behavior. Some of that is
there, but I'd tend to describe it more as Willow being jealous of Buffy's
attention. She feels it belongs to her and resents it not being there on
call. (As opposed to Buffy literally being on call to the Initiative.)
There's a bit of irony in that considering that Willow has previously pushed
Buffy towards both Parker and Riley. Feelings aren't rational.
There have been tensions between Buffy and Willow earlier this season too.
Remember Fear Itself?
You may also note that Willow still doesn't like Anya.
One of the little things in the episode I thought was interesting was how
Forrest was the mirror of Willow, jealous of Riley's attention. (He also
seemed none too pleased at Buffy whipping him early in the episode.)
> The Tale Of Xander And His Wacky Business Misadventures doesn't do
> much for me, nor does it add anything to TIIT. Can we just assume that
> no one bought the stuff and move on, or will we be forced to watch this
> thrilling story play out over the course of the next three seasons?
For a moment the energy bars make me panic and worry that Band Candy is
returning.
> Still unclear on why Willow is so reluctant to talk about her new witch
> friend. Mrs. Q. is convinced that Tara is crushing on Willow. I
> actually happen to already know whether or not she's right, but I
> thought I'd update y'all on a first-timer's impressions.
Crushing. Yeah, that's an apt description. Tara's quite adorable doing
that.
> The Spike/Giles scenes are good. I have nothing else to say about
> them, I just like it whenever our writers put the Briton and the
> fake-Briton on screen together and let them bounce Whedonspeak off each
> other for a few minutes. Except that typing that just made me realize
> the kind of fanfic that must've been written about them, and I may
> need a bucket given that I just ate. What would Freud say?
A little thing I like when Spike bursts in with the tracer on him, is
watching Xander and Anya. Xander watches Spike and makes some wisecracks.
But Anya watches Xander and smiles at his jokes. She does it again briefly
at the end. She's quite smitten.
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> "Send me the heart I desire."
I liked Buffy tring to figure out how to properly impress Maggie.
"Maybe I should get her a present or something"
"Am I supposed to salute you?"
And Maggie's general exasperation at Buffy's questions. Really messed up
her commanding presence.
> Finally, how could I end the review without mentioning the hilarious
> series of jokes leading up to "everyone's getting spanked but
> me?" Hee. I'm sure Wil would find plenty of volunteers on this
> NG.
Yes, I see the line forming and I'm late. Maybe I can get Spike to put in a
good word for me.
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Pretty good in a non-thrilling way.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
I like The Initiative better for its striking scenes, but there's a lot of
good tension here too. I'm quite happy with this episode.
OBS
peachy ashie passion
I could offer to let you demonstrate?
Apteryx
news:1147193285....@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Officials taking stupid risks with peoples lives is everyday stuff, and you
don't need to go to esoterica like CIA brothels to find it. Nuclear testing
above ground is a simple enough example. Murder of civilians is several
steps further on, especially when there is no suggestion that Buffy is a
threat to national security. And yet it seems so routine to Maggie, that she
casually discusses it with her deputy, who does not need to know. That would
be implausible even in a Mafia movie.
--
Apteryx
vague disclaimer
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
>
>
> > That makes exp315's comment, vague and (imo) incorrect as it was, a
> > spoiler, since it happens in the future.
>
> So now *incorrect* statements about future episodes are spoilers?
>
Oh for fuck sake Don, being a dickhead really doesn't suit you so just
stop it. You know perfectly well it was the interpretation I was
referring to.
Given that AoQ has repeatedly (as in, in every single review) asked not
to be spoiled I'll stick with the hair-trigger response for the benefit
of the person who has brought more life to this group than any one for
ages.
You can do what you like.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> > - The use of the monitors during pivotal scenes worked for me. Maggie
> > Walsh: Video Voyeur should elicit some nightmares.
>
> Flashback to the Hush dream sequence. Buffy/Riley on the table kissing - in
> front of an audience - in front of Maggie. Maggie telling Riley, "Be a good
> boy."
There Maggie was facilitating the whole encounter, and here she seems
worried. That weakens the connection between the scenes some for me.
Think it means anything?
-AOQ
One Bit Shy
Well, they didn't make love on the table either. All I was noting was
the synchronicity of them performing in front of Maggie. As in Mother
is watching what they do. I'm far from the big expert on dream
sequences, so I don't really know if the significance goes deeper.
Does it illuminate something, or just foretell?
I can observe that Maggie appears to have brought Buffy into the
Initiative so as to be able to control her. Perhaps because a force
like her could cause the Initiative problems from the outside. But I
think it's more because of Buffy's personal influence on Riley. So
there's at least the broad sense of Maggie attempting to manage both of
them and not allow Buffy to mess Riley up. (She sure was quick to the
phone when Buffy mentioned 314.) Obviously that didn't work well, and
with Maggie dead it's kind of hard to know what her intentions with the
two had been before she changed her mind and tried to kill Buffy.
Whether that links to Maggie's machinations in the dream seems iffy to
me, but I don't think it contradicts it. And you do have the somewhat
maternal concern of Maggie in the dream telling Riley to be a good boy.
OBS
Xande...@gmail.com
JJ Karhu wrote:
> Naq jung nobhg gur pbzzrag nobhg gur *frpbaq* zhfvpny rcvfbqr? Gung
> bar fcbvyf gur cerfrapr bs n zhfvpny rcvfbqr fgenvtug njnl. V sbetrg
> jub tnir gung bar njnl.
>
Npghnyyl ur fnvq "frpbaq ahqr zhfvpny rcvfbqr", naq fvapr gurer jnf
arire n ahqr zhfvpny rcvfbqr, gung jnfa'g n fcbvyre, rvgure.
Actually, I think the debate about whether Buffy formed an army at all
is a lot less spoilerish than it is intriguing for AOQ. I know I'd be
like, "Army, WTF?"
Xan
(Harmony) Watcher
"One Bit Shy" <ult...@mail.com> wrote in message
news:1147285212....@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
gb Jnyfu, V jbhyq fnl cebonoyl Ohssl unq fbzr xvaq bs cebcurgvp vafvtugshy
"fvkgu" frafr gung qrgrpgrq gur pbageby bs Jnyfu bire Evyrl, juvpu vf
pbeebobengrq yngre ol Nqnz pnyyvat Evyrl "oebgure" naq Jnyfu gurve "zbgure".
==(Harmony) Watcher==
One Bit Shy
news:Tox8g.146660$7a.130506@pd7tw1no...
Lrf, V oryvrir vg jbhyq or va gur cebcurgvp frafr vs vg jrer gurer. Naq vg
jbhyq frrz cbffvoyr. Ohg V'z abg fher vg'f pyrne rabhtu gb or pregnva. Gur
ybjre yriry qrrq bs znxvat bhg va sebag bs Znttvr frrzf n pyrnere cebcurpl
gb zr.
OBS