AOQ Review 3-14: "Bad Girls"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Three, Episode 14: "Bad Girls"
(or "Got us some crime to be done")
Writer: Doug Petrie
Director: Michael Lange
Faith is back in the fold full-scale now, to the point where we've
got an episode that's all about B and F. In case you hadn't
noticed, they have different approaches to life. We start with another
synchronized Slaying, along with a chat. It's a good scene - the
way the last vamp busts out the swords and slices apart Buffy's stake
conveys the impression that this is something a little tougher, a
stupid-looking demon that one doesn't want to fuck with. And the
vampire-dissolve effect looks especially gorgeous here. (Aside: Is it
just me, or does Buffy then act a little fonder of Xander after Faith
mentions him? It's subtle. Or possibly nonexistent.)
I'll complain about the new Watcher, Wesley Wyndam-Price, in a little
bit. But he does serve his purpose with regards to the real
protein-source of the story: Faith just says "screw that" and walks
away, and Buffy is tempted to do the same. The difference between the
Slayers isn't a dichotomy so much as a matter of degrees. They're
both American kids who want to enjoy life. Buffy doesn't hold with
all the traditions and lameness either, but she'll still mostly
follow the rules and do her job in the end - Faith simply doesn't
draw that line and takes the disobedience a little bit further. The
reason the extended temptation scenes are so effective is because on
some level, Buffy "knows" that Faith is "right," and wishes she
could be more like her. And she can,,, for awhile. And once she's
gone along part of the way, it gets a little harder to stop; she even
gets involved in the looting for a little. But it's wishful
thinking. At heart she's the good one, and I think she knows it.
Mayor Wilkins is coming into his own as a character here. I'm still
not a fan of the OCD moments, and he's not as funny as someone
thought he was, but I do quite like the way he's so matter-of-fact
about everything and refuses to let complications or assassination
attempts or anything make him so much as raise his voice. We've
known for awhile that he represents a third party serving neither the
Heroes nor the Monsters, but now we know he's fully in the realm of
the supernatural. I like the head-splitting effect at the end.
Well, after the way I complained about how random it seemed when Buffy
decided rather abruptly to start excluding Xander from her world, she
makes it seem less random when she and Faith start doing the same thing
to Willow, leaving her to aggressively sulk as only Hannigan can. At
least they're consistent.
No real comment about the drowning tease, complete with slow motion.
I'm just acknowledging its existence. Faith's impulsvieness gets
the Bad Girls into a few situations, but the hairy moments and the
near-arrest don't do anything to slow her down. But obviously things
will have to be different after she inadvertently kills Allan, right?
(And we know it's a big moment since he was a recurring character.)
Her shock afterward is well played, and then the way she goes back to
look at the body makes one assume that this is a life-changing
experience. I think this part does a lot to make the ending as
surprising as it is.
There're a few pretty big flaws in the episode as far as I'm
concerned, several of which relate to new characters. One flaw would
have to be the new Watcher. The fake one from "Revelations" was
much more convincing. This guy is just a moron and a complete
incompetent, the kind of Watcher who'll cave immediately under
anything resembling pressure. I really hope there's a plan here.
Maybe there's more to him; maybe our esteemed staff had some reason
for bringing him in besides to just be someone against whom for Giles
to look good in comparison. Maybe.
Another flawed creation is Balthazar. This goes back to one of the
thngs I've never been entirely comfortable with about this series:
it's full of really stupid cartoony monsters that don't fit the
mood of the show. To repeat an ancient complaint, if the audience
isn't taking things seriously (and the show throws in winks and nods
to ensure that we aren't) but the characters are, we run the risk of
making the heroes look silly. Fortunately we don't really do that
too often (and not with many long-term villains post-S1), but given
that two episodes in a row have been that way, I wanted to bring it up.
On the other hand, "UNACCEPTABLE!" seems well on its way to
becoming a running joke in the Quality Household.
The ending fight scene is a nice bit of adrenaline. Giles gets a great
chance to show off what he's made of, both as a hostage ("If [you
want] me to scrub those hard-to-reach areas, I'd like to request you
kill me now") and when he gets his hands on a sword. Granted, seeing
the good guys so totally whooping ass does ruin the effect from the
teaser of making the duelists seem like a real threat, but hey,
there're more important things to be thinking about. And
Balthazar's last words refer to one of our long-running stories or
another. Connected with the Mayor's ritual? Well, your guess is
better than mine, given that I'm the one who doesn't know what
happens next.
The real climax comes back at Lady Macbeth's place, where we have a
scene similar to the end of "Revelations." I really thought this
would be when Buffy would break through to her ("don't shut me
out"). Nah, too conventional. Faith went back to dispose of the
body; with regards to killing, she says, seeming to mean it, "you
don't get it. I don't care." Fade to black. Well, that's the
most memorable of the silent fade-outs thus far, to say the least.
So, is the scene in the Bronze Buffydance Pt. II?
So#2, could Buffy's reaction to the lack of news about the
cop-maiming finally be the start of someone taking note of how strange
a town Sunnydale itself is?
So#3, why do even Watchers not seem to recognize *Angelus*? If memory
serves me right, Kendra did. What's everyone else's excuse?
This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway Moment(s):
- "The count of three isn't a plan. It's _Sesame Street_."
- The discussion of the cartoons, especially the glare Allan gets for
mentioning _Cathy_.
-The stereo glasses-clean.
I feel like I should have more to say about this episode, but I really
don't. It was pretty good, but in many ways was mostly setup.
Onward.
So...
One-sentence summary: Moves along okay, and gives us a little to chew
on.
AOQ rating: Good
[Season Three so far:
1) "Anne" - Decent
2) "Dead Man's Party" - Excellent
3) "Faith, Hope, and Trick" - Good
4) "Beauty And The Beasts" - Decent
5) "Homecoming" - Good
6) "Band Candy" - Weak
7) "Revelations" - Good
8) "Lovers Walk" - Excellent
9) "The Wish" - Decent
10) "Amends" - Good
11) "Gingerbread" - Good
12) "Helpless" - Excellent
13) "The Zeppo" - Decent
14) "Bad Girls" - Good]
Jeff Jacoby
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Three, Episode 14: "Bad Girls"
> (or "Got us some crime to be done")
> Writer: Doug Petrie
> Director: Michael Lange
>
> Faith is back in the fold full-scale now, to the point where we've
> got an episode that's all about B and F.
Now that sounds positively obscene!
[snip]
> Mayor Wilkins is coming into his own as a character here. I'm still
> not a fan of the OCD moments, and he's not as funny as someone
> thought he was, but I do quite like the way he's so matter-of-fact
> about everything and refuses to let complications or assassination
> attempts or anything make him so much as raise his voice. We've
> known for awhile that he represents a third party serving neither the
> Heroes nor the Monsters, but now we know he's fully in the realm of
> the supernatural. I like the head-splitting effect at the end.
You didn't like his check-list?
[snip]
> The ending fight scene is a nice bit of adrenaline. Giles gets a great
> chance to show off what he's made of, both as a hostage ("If [you
> want] me to scrub those hard-to-reach areas, I'd like to request you
> kill me now") and when he gets his hands on a sword. Granted, seeing
> the good guys so totally whooping ass does ruin the effect from the
> teaser of making the duelists seem like a real threat, but hey,
> there're more important things to be thinking about. And
> Balthazar's last words refer to one of our long-running stories or
> another. Connected with the Mayor's ritual? Well, your guess is
> better than mine, given that I'm the one who doesn't know what
> happens next.
Listen carefully to exactly what Balthazar is saying after his
minion is dispatched by the Mayor:
Balthazar: Vincent made a noble effort. Man to man, as
befits a true warrior. He had courage... He had honor...
and I have jack to show for it! It's been a hundred years
since my enemy crippled me. Now ultimate power is within his
grasp. And I shall not let it be!
Also recall a statement Wesley said about how long the
El Eliminati were driven out.
Jeff
Michael Ikeda
news:1143068898.5...@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
> review threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Three, Episode 14: "Bad Girls"
> (or "Got us some crime to be done")
> Writer: Doug Petrie
> Director: Michael Lange
>
> I'll complain about the new Watcher, Wesley Wyndam-Price, in a
> little bit. But he does serve his purpose with regards to the
> real protein-source of the story: Faith just says "screw that"
> and walks away, and Buffy is tempted to do the same.
One interesting bit is how pointedly deferential Buffy is to Giles
in the scene where she first meets Wesley. Sending the message
that, whatever the Council says, Giles is STILL her Watcher as far
as she's concerned. I'd strongly suspect that Giles got the
message.
>
> Well, after the way I complained about how random it seemed when
> Buffy decided rather abruptly to start excluding Xander from her
> world, she makes it seem less random when she and Faith start
> doing the same thing to Willow, leaving her to aggressively sulk
> as only Hannigan can. At least they're consistent.
One minor point is that we almost get to hear Willow's middle name
in this episode.
According to William George Ferguson (among others) a cut line in
the script had Willow saying that "If my parents hadn't settled on
Danielle, my middle name would be danger."
(Willow was trying to convince Buffy to let her go along on some
mission or other.)
> There're a few pretty big flaws in the episode as far as I'm
> concerned, several of which relate to new characters. One flaw
> would have to be the new Watcher. The fake one from
> "Revelations" was much more convincing. This guy is just a
> moron and a complete incompetent, the kind of Watcher who'll
> cave immediately under anything resembling pressure. I really
> hope there's a plan here. Maybe there's more to him; maybe our
> esteemed staff had some reason for bringing him in besides to
> just be someone against whom for Giles to look good in
> comparison. Maybe.
One thing to keep in mind about Wesley, however, is that his
problems are mostly a combination of inexperience and poor
training. Both of which are curable conditions. Even in this
episode he shows signs that he'll be useful in the "go get books
look stuff up" part of a Watcher's job.
One should note that while Wesley doesn't help himself much here,
he's been placed in a position that would be nearly impossible for
anyone (with the likely exception of Sam Zabuto), because of the
circumstances that led to his appointment.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
BTR1701
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> I'll complain about the new Watcher, Wesley Wyndam-Price, in a little
> bit. But he does serve his purpose with regards to the real
> protein-source of the story: Faith just says "screw that" and walks
> away, and Buffy is tempted to do the same. The difference between the
> Slayers isn't a dichotomy so much as a matter of degrees. They're
> both American kids who want to enjoy life. Buffy doesn't hold with
> all the traditions and lameness either, but she'll still mostly
> follow the rules and do her job in the end - Faith simply doesn't
> draw that line and takes the disobedience a little bit further. The
> reason the extended temptation scenes are so effective is because on
> some level, Buffy "knows" that Faith is "right," and wishes she
> could be more like her. And she can,,, for awhile. And once she's
> gone along part of the way, it gets a little harder to stop; she even
> gets involved in the looting for a little. But it's wishful
> thinking. At heart she's the good one, and I think she knows it.
Which pretty much sets up one of my favorite lines in the series in an
episode a good way down the pike:
SNVGU
(gb Ohssl)
Lbh'er cebgrpgvat inzcverf? Ner lbh gur onq Fynlre abj? (chmmyrq) Nz V
gur tbbq Fynlre abj?
> There're a few pretty big flaws in the episode as far as I'm
> concerned, several of which relate to new characters. One flaw would
> have to be the new Watcher. The fake one from "Revelations" was
> much more convincing. This guy is just a moron and a complete
> incompetent, the kind of Watcher who'll cave immediately under
> anything resembling pressure. I really hope there's a plan here.
Vg'f vagrerfgvat jngpuvat fbzrbar ernpg gb Jrfyrl gur svefg gvzr jub unf
ab vqrn jurer gur punenpgre jvyy riraghnyyl raq hc. Vs bayl ur unq nal
vqrn bs Jrfyrl'f wbhearl gb pbzr. Ur naq Pbeqryvn ner cebonoyl gur gjb
punenpgref va gur ragver Ohssl havirefr jub haqrejrag gur ovttrfg
genafsbezngvbaf guebhtubhg gur pbhefr bs gur fntn.
> Faith went back to dispose of the
> body; with regards to killing, she says, seeming to mean it, "you
> don't get it. I don't care." Fade to black. Well, that's the
> most memorable of the silent fade-outs thus far, to say the least.
It was the moment that sealed Faith as my favorite character in the
Buffy universe.
Jeff Jacoby
> In article <1143068898.5...@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
>> There're a few pretty big flaws in the episode as far as I'm
>> concerned, several of which relate to new characters. One flaw would
>> have to be the new Watcher. The fake one from "Revelations" was
>> much more convincing. This guy is just a moron and a complete
>> incompetent, the kind of Watcher who'll cave immediately under
>> anything resembling pressure. I really hope there's a plan here.
>
> Vg'f vagrerfgvat jngpuvat fbzrbar ernpg gb Jrfyrl gur svefg gvzr jub unf
> ab vqrn jurer gur punenpgre jvyy riraghnyyl raq hc. Vs bayl ur unq nal
> vqrn bs Jrfyrl'f wbhearl gb pbzr. Ur naq Pbeqryvn ner cebonoyl gur gjb
> punenpgref va gur ragver Ohssl havirefr jub haqrejrag gur ovttrfg
> genafsbezngvbaf guebhtubhg gur pbhefr bs gur fntn.
Fbzr nfcrpgf bs gur gbhtuarff rkuvovgrq yngre ba vf sberfunqbjrq
ol uvf fgnapr va "Pubvprf" jvgu erfcrpg gb genqvat gur Obk bs Tniebp
sbe Jvyybj. Ur znxrf n irel gbhtu, qvssvphyg, hacbchyne qrpvfvba
(naq gur pbeerpg bar, V guvax) bayl gb or fubg qbja ol Ohssl (naq
Bm)
Jeff
William George Ferguson
wrote:
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>
>
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Three, Episode 14: "Bad Girls"
>(or "Got us some crime to be done")
>Writer: Doug Petrie
>Director: Michael Lange
>
>Faith is back in the fold full-scale now, to the point where we've
>got an episode that's all about B and F. In case you hadn't
>noticed, they have different approaches to life. We start with another
>synchronized Slaying, along with a chat. It's a good scene - the
>way the last vamp busts out the swords and slices apart Buffy's stake
>conveys the impression that this is something a little tougher, a
>stupid-looking demon that one doesn't want to fuck with. And the
>vampire-dissolve effect looks especially gorgeous here. (Aside: Is it
>just me, or does Buffy then act a little fonder of Xander after Faith
>mentions him? It's subtle. Or possibly nonexistent.)
>
>I'll complain about the new Watcher, Wesley Wyndam-Price, in a little
>bit.
But he sets up such delicious dialogue.
"I've even faced a vampire under controlled circumstances!"
"That's one thing you won't have to worry about in Sunnydale."
"Vampires?"
"Controlled circumstances."
>But he does serve his purpose with regards to the real
>protein-source of the story: Faith just says "screw that" and walks
>away, and Buffy is tempted to do the same. The difference between the
>Slayers isn't a dichotomy so much as a matter of degrees. They're
>both American kids who want to enjoy life. Buffy doesn't hold with
>all the traditions and lameness either, but she'll still mostly
>follow the rules and do her job in the end - Faith simply doesn't
>draw that line and takes the disobedience a little bit further. The
>reason the extended temptation scenes are so effective is because on
>some level, Buffy "knows" that Faith is "right," and wishes she
>could be more like her. And she can,,, for awhile. And once she's
>gone along part of the way, it gets a little harder to stop; she even
>gets involved in the looting for a little. But it's wishful
>thinking. At heart she's the good one, and I think she knows it.
Don't forget the subtext here. Faith and Buffy make Xena and Gabby look
like straight hetero.
>Mayor Wilkins is coming into his own as a character here. I'm still
>not a fan of the OCD moments, and he's not as funny as someone
>thought he was, but I do quite like the way he's so matter-of-fact
>about everything and refuses to let complications or assassination
>attempts or anything make him so much as raise his voice.
I never took Wilkins as a comedic foe (although there is occasional
comedy), he's an evil man with an evil plan, and he doesn't let himself get
distracted into pissing contests with the heroes. I really liked that.
>We've
>known for awhile that he represents a third party serving neither the
>Heroes nor the Monsters, but now we know he's fully in the realm of
>the supernatural. I like the head-splitting effect at the end.
>
>Well, after the way I complained about how random it seemed when Buffy
>decided rather abruptly to start excluding Xander from her world, she
>makes it seem less random when she and Faith start doing the same thing
>to Willow, leaving her to aggressively sulk as only Hannigan can. At
>least they're consistent.
>
>No real comment about the drowning tease, complete with slow motion.
>I'm just acknowledging its existence.
Just a reminder of something I've said before. Buffy never really got over
being killed, as well she shouldn't.
>Faith's impulsvieness gets
>the Bad Girls into a few situations, but the hairy moments and the
>near-arrest don't do anything to slow her down. But obviously things
>will have to be different after she inadvertently kills Allan, right?
>(And we know it's a big moment since he was a recurring character.)
>Her shock afterward is well played, and then the way she goes back to
>look at the body makes one assume that this is a life-changing
>experience. I think this part does a lot to make the ending as
>surprising as it is.
>
>There're a few pretty big flaws in the episode as far as I'm
>concerned, several of which relate to new characters. One flaw would
>have to be the new Watcher. The fake one from "Revelations" was
>much more convincing.
Gwendolyn Post wasn't supposed to be a Bertie Wooster type, who was more or
less fresh out of school, never been in the field, was mostly a researcher,
and way too full of himself. You may have already seen Don Sample's
supposition that he may have been sent out precisely because he was
incompetent, to get the girls killed (part of the Evil Council theory)
>This guy is just a moron and a complete
>incompetent, the kind of Watcher who'll cave immediately under
>anything resembling pressure.
Well, he's not a 'complete' incompetent. It's shown here that he is
actually pretty decent as a researcher, just incompetent as a leader or man
of action.
>I really hope there's a plan here.
>Maybe there's more to him; maybe our esteemed staff had some reason
>for bringing him in besides to just be someone against whom for Giles
>to look good in comparison. Maybe.
Well his real plan was to meet Alyson Hannigan and end up marrying her four
years later (although from their accounts, Alyson pursued Alexis to begin
with more than the other way around).
>Another flawed creation is Balthazar. This goes back to one of the
>thngs I've never been entirely comfortable with about this series:
>it's full of really stupid cartoony monsters that don't fit the
>mood of the show. To repeat an ancient complaint, if the audience
>isn't taking things seriously (and the show throws in winks and nods
>to ensure that we aren't) but the characters are, we run the risk of
>making the heroes look silly. Fortunately we don't really do that
>too often (and not with many long-term villains post-S1), but given
>that two episodes in a row have been that way, I wanted to bring it up.
It's just a problem of the genre. There's no way they can make what they
want to look actually scary. They have to accomplish that with the story
and dialogue.
>On the other hand, "UNACCEPTABLE!" seems well on its way to
>becoming a running joke in the Quality Household.
>The ending fight scene is a nice bit of adrenaline. Giles gets a great
>chance to show off what he's made of, both as a hostage ("If [you
>want] me to scrub those hard-to-reach areas, I'd like to request you
>kill me now") and when he gets his hands on a sword. Granted, seeing
>the good guys so totally whooping ass does ruin the effect from the
>teaser of making the duelists seem like a real threat, but hey,
>there're more important things to be thinking about. And
>Balthazar's last words refer to one of our long-running stories or
>another. Connected with the Mayor's ritual? Well, your guess is
>better than mine, given that I'm the one who doesn't know what
>happens next.
I don't know about connected to the Mayor's ritual, but most of us at the
time were assuming that it was the Mayor who thwarted Balthasar back in the
30s. They've already established that he's keeping control of the
supernatural stuff in town, to make sure it doesn't interfere with his own
plans (keeping the eye out on Spike, pulling in Trick).
>The real climax comes back at Lady Macbeth's place, where we have a
>scene similar to the end of "Revelations." I really thought this
>would be when Buffy would break through to her ("don't shut me
>out"). Nah, too conventional. Faith went back to dispose of the
>body; with regards to killing, she says, seeming to mean it, "you
>don't get it. I don't care." Fade to black. Well, that's the
>most memorable of the silent fade-outs thus far, to say the least.
'seeming to mean it'? Even after you picked up on the 'Out Damned Spot'
metaphor?
>So, is the scene in the Bronze Buffydance Pt. II?
I was wondering if you'd remember my reference to Buffydance Pt. 1 :)
>So#2, could Buffy's reaction to the lack of news about the
>cop-maiming finally be the start of someone taking note of how strange
>a town Sunnydale itself is?
>
>So#3, why do even Watchers not seem to recognize *Angelus*? If memory
>serves me right, Kendra did. What's everyone else's excuse?
I guess I'll have to rewatch, (I do most of these responses from memory) I
don't remember it being a big point here.
>This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway Moment(s):
>- "The count of three isn't a plan. It's _Sesame Street_."
Faith and the number 3 is a theme, eh? "She's not playing with a full
deck! She doesn't have a deck! She has a three!"
>-The stereo glasses-clean.
>I feel like I should have more to say about this episode, but I really
>don't. It was pretty good, but in many ways was mostly setup.
>Onward.
Exactly, this is a 'part 1'.
--
HERBERT
1996 - 1997
Beloved Mascot
Delightful Meal
He fed the Pack
A little
Stephen Tempest
>Well, after the way I complained about how random it seemed when Buffy
>decided rather abruptly to start excluding Xander from her world, she
>makes it seem less random when she and Faith start doing the same thing
>to Willow, leaving her to aggressively sulk as only Hannigan can. At
>least they're consistent.
I think Doug Petrie's commentary on the infamous "drawing a heart on
the window" scene is worth quoting here:
"And there's the heart - again, lesbian subtext, but the heart with
the stake through it, that's because stakes, and vampires, and the
heart... and yet it's a kind of romantic image at the same time.
Because it's almost a seduction, y'know, Faith is very sexy and she's
saying 'Come play with me.'"
Buffy's being seduced by the power of the Dark Side^W -Haired Slayer,
and Willow's feeling left out of things...
>No real comment about the drowning tease, complete with slow motion.
>I'm just acknowledging its existence.
I'm guessing she was holding her breath there to take the vampire by
surprise - but it was also a really obvious baptism/rebirth metaphor.
Just like in 'Prophecy Girl'.
>Maybe there's more to him; maybe our esteemed staff had some reason
>for bringing him in besides to just be someone against whom for Giles
>to look good in comparison. Maybe.
He's there to be Willow's new love interest...
(not a spoiler, honest. :) )
>So#3, why do even Watchers not seem to recognize *Angelus*? If memory
>serves me right, Kendra did. What's everyone else's excuse?
>The real climax comes back at Lady Macbeth's place, where we have a
>scene similar to the end of "Revelations." I really thought this
>would be when Buffy would break through to her ("don't shut me
>out"). Nah, too conventional. Faith went back to dispose of the
>body; with regards to killing, she says, seeming to mean it, "you
>don't get it. I don't care." Fade to black. Well, that's the
>most memorable of the silent fade-outs thus far, to say the least.>
Buffy's clearly shocked and horrified by Faith's apparent callousness.
How do you think Faith feels about Buffy's reaction?
Note that this is episode 14. Back in season 2, Episode 14 was
'Innocence'...
Stephen
Apteryx
news:1143068898.5...@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
> concerned, several of which relate to new characters. One flaw would
> have to be the new Watcher. The fake one from "Revelations" was
> much more convincing. This guy is just a moron and a complete
> incompetent, the kind of Watcher who'll cave immediately under
> anything resembling pressure. I really hope there's a plan here.
> Maybe there's more to him; maybe our esteemed staff had some reason
> for bringing him in besides to just be someone against whom for Giles
> to look good in comparison. Maybe.
He doesn't seem to come out of the same mould as Giles and Gwendolyn, but
one of them was outright evil, and the other raised demons in his youth -
maybe they've gone a bit too far in filtering out the bad people in their
recruiting.
> Another flawed creation is Balthazar. This goes back to one of the
> thngs I've never been entirely comfortable with about this series:
> it's full of really stupid cartoony monsters that don't fit the
> mood of the show.
Its not really about Balthazar. He's set up as the epidode's villian, but
events overtake him. In fact there is so much stuff happening in this
episode that a good villain would be wasted - you'd never notice him. At
least Balthazar puts up a fight to be noticed.
> there're more important things to be thinking about. And
> Balthazar's last words refer to one of our long-running stories or
> another.
As he dies, he warns the gang of the Big Bad to come after him - doesn' t
that make you go "ooo"?
> The real climax comes back at Lady Macbeth's place, where we have a
> scene similar to the end of "Revelations." I really thought this
> would be when Buffy would break through to her ("don't shut me
> out"). Nah, too conventional. Faith went back to dispose of the
> body; with regards to killing, she says, seeming to mean it, "you
> don't get it. I don't care." Fade to black. Well, that's the
> most memorable of the silent fade-outs thus far, to say the least.
Did you notice that Buffy had gotten back into good girl clothes for that
scene, after the taste of being bad had gone a little sour? And we know
Faith lies, even to herself, to try to avoid feeling bad (eg, the "party"
she was going to, back in Amends). The good guys killing humans is always a
big deal in BtVS (except when its not).
> So#2, could Buffy's reaction to the lack of news about the
> cop-maiming finally be the start of someone taking note of how strange
> a town Sunnydale itself is?
Or a late night assault on officers to facilitate escape just wasn't big
enough news to stop the presses on the Sunnydale morning paper, even though
she thought it was the crime of the century? Though we don't actually get to
see for sure whether there was someting in the paper or not - Joyce
interupts while she is still looking.
> So#3, why do even Watchers not seem to recognize *Angelus*? If memory
> serves me right, Kendra did. What's everyone else's excuse?
Kendra didn't recognize him as Angelus. She knew he was a vampire because
saw him with his gameface at the ice rink and later attacked him when he was
threatening the barkeeper Willy. Later she recognised the name Angel as
Angelus when she was told it. Wesley might recognise that name too, but he
wasn't told it. He also doesn't recognise the face. Maybe vampires
photograph badly?
> I feel like I should have more to say about this episode, but I really
> don't. It was pretty good, but in many ways was mostly setup.
> Onward.
>
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Moves along okay, and gives us a little to chew
> on.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
There is a an awful lot of stuff happening here - especially with regard to
Faith. It's as if the Faith story had been drifting along since F/H/T, and
the writers suddenly realised "Hey, there's only 9 more episodes this
season". It does show a clear difference emerging between Buffy and Faith.
Buffy occaisionaly wants to be bad to escape from normality - for Faith, it
is normality.
And there are some great lines - the repeated "Is he evil?", Buffy lining up
in the Giles camp ("Whenever Giles sends me on a mission, he always says
'please'. And afterwards I get a cookie.") and the Mayor slotting in "Become
Invincible" between calling the Temp Agency, and Meeting with the PTA.
I'd call it good too, 58th best in BtVS, 14th best in Season 3
--
Apteryx
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Three, Episode 14: "Bad Girls"
> (or "Got us some crime to be done")
> Writer: Doug Petrie
> Director: Michael Lange
>
> I'll complain about the new Watcher, Wesley Wyndam-Price, in a little
> bit.
Pet peeve #1 There are no 'i's in Wesley's name (or 'h's or 't's.) It's
Wesley Wyndam-Pryce.
>
> There're a few pretty big flaws in the episode as far as I'm
> concerned, several of which relate to new characters. One flaw would
> have to be the new Watcher. The fake one from "Revelations" was
> much more convincing. This guy is just a moron and a complete
> incompetent, the kind of Watcher who'll cave immediately under
> anything resembling pressure. I really hope there's a plan here.
Wesley isn't a moron. He's just naive and inexperienced, and thinks
that all the book learning he's done makes him ready to operate in the
real world.
Whether or not he's capable of learning from his experiences, before
they kill him, is yet to be seen.
> And
> Balthazar's last words refer to one of our long-running stories or
> another. Connected with the Mayor's ritual? Well, your guess is
> better than mine, given that I'm the one who doesn't know what
> happens next.
I think it was pretty clear at this point that it was the Mayor who
nearly killed Balthazar, resulting in him being confined to his hot-tub.
It was the Mayor that Balthazar sent Vincent after, after all, and after
Vincent fails Balthazar starts to go on about his ancient enemy and how
he's about to attain ultimate power.
And the Mayor's planing on something called an Ascension, in a hundred
days (gee, how long till the season finale?)
> So, is the scene in the Bronze Buffydance Pt. II?
You've probably noticed that it's part of the season 3 DVD menus by now,
and I don't think it's too spoilery to say that vg orpbzrf cneg bs gur
bcravat perqvgf sbe gur arkg srj frnfbaf.
> So#3, why do even Watchers not seem to recognize *Angelus*? If memory
> serves me right, Kendra did. What's everyone else's excuse?
Kendra didn't recognize him until after she'd been told his name, and
seen that he was a vampire. Wesley had neither of those bits of
information. He was just "a friend" of Buffy's. (That's all Gwen Post
knew about him too, when she clocked Giles.) Giles didn't take long to
find him in the books after he learned that he was a vampire.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
One Bit Shy
news:1143068898.5...@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Faith is back in the fold full-scale now, to the point where we've
> got an episode that's all about B and F. In case you hadn't
> noticed, they have different approaches to life. We start with another
> synchronized Slaying, along with a chat. It's a good scene - the
> way the last vamp busts out the swords and slices apart Buffy's stake
> conveys the impression that this is something a little tougher, a
> stupid-looking demon that one doesn't want to fuck with. And the
> vampire-dissolve effect looks especially gorgeous here. (Aside: Is it
> just me, or does Buffy then act a little fonder of Xander after Faith
> mentions him? It's subtle. Or possibly nonexistent.)
I think Buffy has always been fond of Xander - must have been to put up with
him. Back to the first episode when Xander was disarmingly sweet in getting
to know her. And certainly from having her life restored by him. To me,
the main thing we see here is simply that their big conflict appears to be
past. Revelations and Amends would appear to have done the trick.
What I find more curious is why Faith is so interested. Not that I have an
answer to that. But if her attitude is really hump 'em and dump 'em, I
wonder why she's probing along these lines now.
> I'll complain about the new Watcher, Wesley Wyndam-Price, in a little
> bit. But he does serve his purpose with regards to the real
> protein-source of the story: Faith just says "screw that" and walks
> away, and Buffy is tempted to do the same. The difference between the
> Slayers isn't a dichotomy so much as a matter of degrees. They're
> both American kids who want to enjoy life. Buffy doesn't hold with
> all the traditions and lameness either, but she'll still mostly
> follow the rules and do her job in the end - Faith simply doesn't
> draw that line and takes the disobedience a little bit further. The
> reason the extended temptation scenes are so effective is because on
> some level, Buffy "knows" that Faith is "right," and wishes she
> could be more like her. And she can,,, for awhile. And once she's
> gone along part of the way, it gets a little harder to stop; she even
> gets involved in the looting for a little. But it's wishful
> thinking. At heart she's the good one, and I think she knows it.
How much are they alike and how much are they different? After Faith gets
Buffy to jump down into the sewer against her best rational judgment, the
experience clearly pumps Buffy up. She can't stop talking about it and
jumps at the chance to stake some more. (I always liked Faith's little
heart in the window with the stake going into it. What do you suppose that
looked like to to others in the class? Not a stake I bet.) So Faith
clearly did touch upon a common feeling between them and the idea that
you're doing it wrong if you're not enjoying it clearly resonated with
Buffy. In a weird way, for a little while there, Buffy may have been more
fully into just being the Slayer than we've seen her. The desire to be a
normal kid too pretty much forgotten. (Perhaps the point of her
estrangement with Willow.)
But even so, in time they pulled apart. Buffy is shown, I think, to already
have doubts while they're riding in the police car, though she continues to
go with Faith a little longer. But the real division occurs, of course,
with their reaction to the killing. Now they seem radically different.
So the question is, how different? Is Faith just Buffy with a different
background? Is Faith what Buffy would be without Giles and her friends in
Sunnydale? Does what we say in the Wish alter the answer? Or perhaps the
difference is more to the core of their individual selves? There's a kind
of nature vs. nurture question at work here. And I'm not offering an
answer. Partly because we'll just have to see, and partly because I'm not
confident I have good answers.
Whatever the answer, this may be something to watch. Faith the individual.
Faith the reflection of Buffy. And the reverse too. What do they do to
each other. These kind of questions really have been here since Faith
showed up. They just haven't been so front and center until now.
> There're a few pretty big flaws in the episode as far as I'm
> concerned, several of which relate to new characters. One flaw would
> have to be the new Watcher. The fake one from "Revelations" was
> much more convincing. This guy is just a moron and a complete
> incompetent, the kind of Watcher who'll cave immediately under
> anything resembling pressure. I really hope there's a plan here.
> Maybe there's more to him; maybe our esteemed staff had some reason
> for bringing him in besides to just be someone against whom for Giles
> to look good in comparison. Maybe.
We'll probably come back to this later. For now I'll say that I like Wesley
as a character in himself a great deal - and the way he fits into this
episode is simply wonderful. An awful lot of humor arises through him, and
just his existance serves to encourage Buffy to go off her own way (and with
Faith).
My opinion of the Council takes a big hit here, however. I had hoped - for
something more.
> Another flawed creation is Balthazar. This goes back to one of the
> thngs I've never been entirely comfortable with about this series:
> it's full of really stupid cartoony monsters that don't fit the
> mood of the show. To repeat an ancient complaint, if the audience
> isn't taking things seriously (and the show throws in winks and nods
> to ensure that we aren't) but the characters are, we run the risk of
> making the heroes look silly. Fortunately we don't really do that
> too often (and not with many long-term villains post-S1), but given
> that two episodes in a row have been that way, I wanted to bring it up.
I like Balthazar a lot. His attitude works really well. (As in the
UNACCEPTABLE! that you mention.) His looks don't bother me. Perhpas its
because I think a comic book sensibility is a part of the show's character.
Which I personally take as a good thing.
> The real climax comes back at Lady Macbeth's place, where we have a
> scene similar to the end of "Revelations." I really thought this
> would be when Buffy would break through to her ("don't shut me
> out"). Nah, too conventional. Faith went back to dispose of the
> body; with regards to killing, she says, seeming to mean it, "you
> don't get it. I don't care." Fade to black. Well, that's the
> most memorable of the silent fade-outs thus far, to say the least.
Washer woman Macbeth. heh-heh. Don't know what else to say now but, yeah,
that's memmorable.
> I feel like I should have more to say about this episode, but I really
> don't. It was pretty good, but in many ways was mostly setup.
> Onward.
A list of good could get quite long. The list of good lines alone would go
on for pages. And it seems pretty clear that the episode is *important*.
Yet I can't give it an excellent either. The tension has been raised a few
notches, but the stakes aren't clear. I agree with good.
OBS
Don Sample
Jeff Jacoby <jja...@not.real.com> wrote:
> On 22 Mar 2006 15:08:18 -0800, Arbitrar <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> > A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > threads.
> >
> >
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Three, Episode 14: "Bad Girls"
> > (or "Got us some crime to be done")
> > Writer: Doug Petrie
> > Director: Michael Lange
> >
> > Faith is back in the fold full-scale now, to the point where we've
> > got an episode that's all about B and F.
>
> Now that sounds positively obscene!
>
> [snip]
>
> > Mayor Wilkins is coming into his own as a character here. I'm still
> > not a fan of the OCD moments, and he's not as funny as someone
> > thought he was, but I do quite like the way he's so matter-of-fact
> > about everything and refuses to let complications or assassination
> > attempts or anything make him so much as raise his voice. We've
> > known for awhile that he represents a third party serving neither the
> > Heroes nor the Monsters, but now we know he's fully in the realm of
> > the supernatural. I like the head-splitting effect at the end.
>
> You didn't like his check-list?
>
Ah yes:
GREET SCOUTS
GET HAIRCUT
PLUMBER UNION RESCHEDULE
CALL TEMP AGENCY
BECOME INVINCIBLE
MEETING WITH PTA
Nice to know he's got everything planned out.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> bit. But he does serve his purpose with regards to the real
> protein-source of the story: Faith just says "screw that" and walks
you have to like
- is he evil
long wesley blather
- is he evil
> No real comment about the drowning tease, complete with slow motion.
its supposed to recall her drowning in prophecy girl
and also act as a kind baptism
she becomes more like faith from then till allens death
> near-arrest don't do anything to slow her down. But obviously things
> will have to be different after she inadvertently kills Allan, right?
> (And we know it's a big moment since he was a recurring character.)
ive been thinking it was allen that snuck the eliminati (pun of illuminati?)
into the mayros office
that he had finally decided wilkins had to be stopped
and initially made a deal with balthazar to kill wilkins
and then decided to go to slayers to fight both
> So#2, could Buffy's reaction to the lack of news about the
> cop-maiming finally be the start of someone taking note of how strange
> a town Sunnydale itself is?
>
> So#3, why do even Watchers not seem to recognize *Angelus*? If memory
> serves me right, Kendra did. What's everyone else's excuse?
angel is a vampire
and even with a soul they dont trust him
> I feel like I should have more to say about this episode, but I really
> don't. It was pretty good, but in many ways was mostly setup.
> Onward.
the season is starting to pile on to the end of season climax
some of the loose ends from the throughout the season will soon be tied together
(some loose ends however will never be resolved)
some of the things you dont like
will be better understood at the end of the season
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
George W Harris
wrote:
:> Another flawed creation is Balthazar. This goes back to one of the
:> thngs I've never been entirely comfortable with about this series:
:> it's full of really stupid cartoony monsters that don't fit the
:> mood of the show. To repeat an ancient complaint, if the audience
:> isn't taking things seriously (and the show throws in winks and nods
:> to ensure that we aren't) but the characters are, we run the risk of
:> making the heroes look silly. Fortunately we don't really do that
:> too often (and not with many long-term villains post-S1), but given
:> that two episodes in a row have been that way, I wanted to bring it up.
:
:I like Balthazar a lot. His attitude works really well. (As in the
:UNACCEPTABLE! that you mention.) His looks don't bother me. Perhpas its
:because I think a comic book sensibility is a part of the show's character.
:Which I personally take as a good thing.
Also remembre he talks about being crippled by
his enemy (who might that be?); he may once have been
fearsome.
--
/bud...@nirvana.net/h:k
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> photograph badly?
council probably doesnt go into new fangled technology like cameras
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> comedy), he's an evil man with an evil plan, and he doesn't let himself get
> distracted into pissing contests with the heroes. I really liked that.
wilkins seems to have studied the evil overlord rules
http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
Lord Usher
DA4881.193...@news.giganews.com:
>> You didn't like his check-list?
>>
>
> Ah yes:
>
> GREET SCOUTS
> GET HAIRCUT
> PLUMBER UNION RESCHEDULE
> CALL TEMP AGENCY
> BECOME INVINCIBLE
> MEETING WITH PTA
>
> Nice to know he's got everything planned out.
Back when the episode first aired, someone pointed out that he probably
should've gotten his hair cut *before* he became invulnerable. :)
--
Lord Usher
"I'm here to kill you, not to judge you."
Kevin
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Faith went back to dispose of the
> body; with regards to killing, she says, seeming to mean it, "you
> don't get it. I don't care." Fade to black. Well, that's the
> most memorable of the silent fade-outs thus far, to say the least.
Blackout, actually -- and indeed effective. (Sorry, the word "fade"
was pushing my buttons; I don't mean to be snippy.)
> So, is the scene in the Bronze Buffydance Pt. II?
<reverie>Mmmmmmmm.....</reverie> That scene is well-loved. And its
lead-in is fantastic: F&B burst into the vamp's lair, the camera zooms
into their Bad Girl faces, the music screams upward, and **POW!** dirty
dancing at the Bronze. Whew.
Petrie wrote both Revelations and Bad Girls, and more of Faith's story
in another ep still to come. He did a fine job of giving Dushku lots
to sink her teeth into.
One major point of contention in early discussions of this episode was
Buffy's easy descent into bad behavior. Should it have seemed so easy?
Yes, she argued with Faith on the subject, but in the classroom scene
when she disturbed W&X during the test, and blew it off to hang with
Faith (albeit a Slaying expedition)... Was this just a bit too
un-Buffy?
--Kevin
Bill Reid
Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1143068898.5...@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Season Three, Episode 14: "Bad Girls"
> The difference between the
> Slayers isn't a dichotomy so much as a matter of degrees.
Or a path taken in snowy woods...
> They're
> both American kids who want to enjoy life. Buffy doesn't hold with
> all the traditions and lameness either, but she'll still mostly
> follow the rules and do her job in the end - Faith simply doesn't
> draw that line and takes the disobedience a little bit further.
Kind of an anti-Kendra, would not you say?
>
> Mayor Wilkins is coming into his own as a character here. We've
> known for awhile that he represents a third party serving neither the
> Heroes nor the Monsters, but now we know he's fully in the realm of
> the supernatural. I like the head-splitting effect at the end.
>
I think that is actually the legendary "Excedrin Headache #1".
> Well, after the way I complained about how random it seemed when Buffy
> decided rather abruptly to start excluding Xander from her world, she
> makes it seem less random when she and Faith start doing the same thing
> to Willow, leaving her to aggressively sulk as only Hannigan can. At
> least they're consistent.
>
They're consistently inconsistent.
"Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds" - Oscar Wilde
> No real comment about the drowning tease, complete with slow motion.
> I'm just acknowledging its existence.
Buffy death number 1,237,648 and we've still got four and half
seasons to go. Cordelia isn't the only one that's like a cat.
> Faith's impulsvieness gets
> the Bad Girls into a few situations, but the hairy moments and the
> near-arrest don't do anything to slow her down. But obviously things
> will have to be different after she inadvertently kills Allan, right?
Yeah, she'll have to really scrub to get that damn spot out...she should
really Shout(TM) it out...
> There're a few pretty big flaws in the episode as far as I'm
> concerned, several of which relate to new characters. One flaw would
> have to be the new Watcher.
Kind of a cartoon-y caricuture, innit he?
> Maybe there's more to him; maybe our esteemed staff had some reason
> for bringing him in besides to just be someone against whom for Giles
> to look good in comparison. Maybe.
>
Comic relief not good enough for you? Oh yeah, I forgot...
> Another flawed creation is Balthazar. This goes back to one of the
> thngs I've never been entirely comfortable with about this series:
> it's full of really stupid cartoony monsters that don't fit the
> mood of the show.
I kind of liked him, and it was amazing that Marlon Brando came
out of retirement to play the part...
> To repeat an ancient complaint, if the audience
> isn't taking things seriously (and the show throws in winks and nods
> to ensure that we aren't) but the characters are, we run the risk of
> making the heroes look silly.
God forbid this happen in a show called "Buffy The Vampire Slayer".
Credibility is already on the slender side...
> Fortunately we don't really do that
> too often (and not with many long-term villains post-S1), but given
> that two episodes in a row have been that way, I wanted to bring it up.
>
Maybe the next villian won't be wearing quite as much make-up...
>
> On the other hand, "UNACCEPTABLE!" seems well on its way to
> becoming a running joke in the Quality Household.
>
"Intriguing...NOT IT'S NOT!!!"
> And
> Balthazar's last words refer to one of our long-running stories or
> another. Connected with the Mayor's ritual? Well, your guess is
> better than mine, given that I'm the one who doesn't know what
> happens next.
>
A friendly piece of advice: a lot of the people who post to this
group had a hell of time following the plot of season three, and its
relationship to the plots of seasons one and two. The show had
this nasty habit of just showing you stuff piecemeal, and leaving
it up to you to figure out what was going on "behind the scenes".
Fortunately for a lot of people, in later seasons, they completely
reverse this writing style, and GIVE YOU ENDLESS TALKY
EXPOSITION, almost like an episode of "Charmed"...
> The real climax comes back at Lady Macbeth's place, where we have a
> scene similar to the end of "Revelations." I really thought this
> would be when Buffy would break through to her ("don't shut me
> out"). Nah, too conventional. Faith went back to dispose of the
> body; with regards to killing, she says, seeming to mean it, "you
> don't get it. I don't care." Fade to black. Well, that's the
> most memorable of the silent fade-outs thus far, to say the least.
>
It's like a cliff-hanger without a cliff...
> So, is the scene in the Bronze Buffydance Pt. II?
>
No, much better, two chicks, remember the opening line in
the book "Private Parts"...
>
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway Moment(s):
> - "The count of three isn't a plan. It's _Sesame Street_."
You know, I never knew exactly what she said there. She kind
of mumble-rushes a lot of her dialog, which is in character, but there's
a few lines I've never actually heard in the show.
> - The discussion of the cartoons, especially the glare Allan gets for
> mentioning _Cathy_.
I like "Zippy Pinhead".
> -The stereo glasses-clean.
>
I don't want to spoil you, but Giles gets contacts in the next episode,
and we never see him in glasses again.
> I feel like I should have more to say about this episode, but I really
> don't. It was pretty good, but in many ways was mostly setup.
It's almost like they realized they didn't have a plot yet, so they
kind of slapped the beginning of it all into one episode...nah...
---
William Ernest Reid
Rowan Hawthorn
> Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in news:dsample-
> DA4881.193...@news.giganews.com:
>
>
>>>You didn't like his check-list?
>>>
>>
>>Ah yes:
>>
>>GREET SCOUTS
>>GET HAIRCUT
>>PLUMBER UNION RESCHEDULE
>>CALL TEMP AGENCY
>>BECOME INVINCIBLE
>>MEETING WITH PTA
>>
>>Nice to know he's got everything planned out.
>
>
> Back when the episode first aired, someone pointed out that he probably
> should've gotten his hair cut *before* he became invulnerable. :)
>
Not to spoil the joke ('cause it's pretty funny, at that,) but he's
becoming *invincible*, not *invulnerable*. The Eliminati's sword
actually cut him, it just didn't harm him any. Naq gurer'f gur znggre
bs Tvyrf' fjbeq, gur znexf znqr ol gur Obk bs Tniebx pevggref, naq
Natry'f hfr bs gur Znlbe'f yrggre bcrare. Nyy jrer noyr gb cvrepr uvf
obql, ohg gur jbhaqf pybfrq hc naq qvq ab erny qnzntr.
Of course, I suppose it could be argued that any hair he gets cut will
just grow back... um...
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
vague disclaimer
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> vg orpbzrf cneg bs gur
> bcravat perqvgf sbe gur arkg srj frnfbaf.
And rightly so....
--
A vague disclaimer is nobody's friend
Rowan Hawthorn
> On 22 Mar 2006 15:08:18 -0800, "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>>This guy is just a moron and a complete
>>incompetent, the kind of Watcher who'll cave immediately under
>>anything resembling pressure.
>
>
> Well, he's not a 'complete' incompetent. It's shown here that he is
> actually pretty decent as a researcher, just incompetent as a leader or man
> of action.
>
>
>>I really hope there's a plan here.
>>Maybe there's more to him; maybe our esteemed staff had some reason
>>for bringing him in besides to just be someone against whom for Giles
>>to look good in comparison. Maybe.
>
>
> Well his real plan was to meet Alyson Hannigan and end up marrying her four
> years later (although from their accounts, Alyson pursued Alexis to begin
> with more than the other way around).
>
See? A completely incompetent moron. :-) Although, now that I think of
it, he *did* allow himself to get caught, so maybe not...
vague disclaimer
Lord Usher <lord_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in news:dsample-
> DA4881.193...@news.giganews.com:
>
> >> You didn't like his check-list?
> >>
> >
> > Ah yes:
> >
> > GREET SCOUTS
> > GET HAIRCUT
> > PLUMBER UNION RESCHEDULE
> > CALL TEMP AGENCY
> > BECOME INVINCIBLE
> > MEETING WITH PTA
> >
> > Nice to know he's got everything planned out.
>
> Back when the episode first aired, someone pointed out that he probably
> should've gotten his hair cut *before* he became invulnerable. :)
See, now that's why this is a great fuckin' newsgroup.
Don Sample
<zJmUf.607909$qk4.3...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"Bill Reid" <horme...@happyhealthy.net> wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1143068898.5...@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> > Well, after the way I complained about how random it seemed when Buffy
> > decided rather abruptly to start excluding Xander from her world, she
> > makes it seem less random when she and Faith start doing the same thing
> > to Willow, leaving her to aggressively sulk as only Hannigan can. At
> > least they're consistent.
> >
> They're consistently inconsistent.
>
> "Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds" - Oscar Wilde
Actually, it was Ralph Waldo Emerson.
Eric Hunter
> On 22 Mar 2006 15:08:18 -0800, "Arbitrar Of Quality"
> <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>> threads.
>>
>>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Three, Episode 14: "Bad Girls"
>> (or "Got us some crime to be done")
>> Writer: Doug Petrie
>> Director: Michael Lange
>>
>> with slow motion. I'm just acknowledging its existence.
>
> Just a reminder of something I've said before. Buffy never
> really got over being killed, as well she shouldn't.
You should also note the change in Buffy's behavior
after the near drowning. It is at that point that she
buys into Faith's "bad girl" vibe.
Eric.
--
Bill Reid
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
news:dsample-C80C1C...@news.giganews.com...
> In article
> <zJmUf.607909$qk4.3...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> "Bill Reid" <horme...@happyhealthy.net> wrote:
> >
> > "Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds" - Oscar Wilde
>
> Actually, it was Ralph Waldo Emerson.
>
---
William Ernest Reid
hopelessly devoted
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Three, Episode 14: "Bad Girls"
On First Viewing On First Viewing On First Viewing
> Faith is back in the fold full-scale now, to the point where we've
> got an episode that's all about B and F. In case you hadn't
>
Always nice to see the dynamic different duo in action. Just two teen
age girls having a perfectly normal conversation .....while
slaying.........about sex with Xander.
Cordy's being a real BITCH and back on the very personal front! "Well,
Xander, I could dress more like you, but, oh, my father has a job."
Taking rude to a whole new level.
> I'll complain about the new Watcher, Wesley Wyndam-Price, in a little
> bit.
>
First Impression: Dead Man Walking.
I did love the slight lean away from him on "A good Slayer is a
cautious Slayer."
Buffy doesn't hold with
> all the traditions and lameness either, but she'll still mostly
> follow the rules and do her job in the end - Faith simply doesn't
> draw that line and takes the disobedience a little bit further. The
> reason the extended temptation scenes are so effective is because on
> some level, Buffy "knows" that Faith is "right," and wishes she
> could be more like her. And she can,,, for awhile. And once she's
> gone along part of the way, it gets a little harder to stop; she even
> gets involved in the looting for a little. But it's wishful
> thinking. At heart she's the good one, and I think she knows it.
>
Or maybe it's just fun to be a bad girl for a while.
> Mayor Wilkins is coming into his own as a character here. I'm still
> not a fan of the OCD moments, and he's not as funny as someone
> thought he was, but I do quite like the way he's so matter-of-fact
> about everything and refuses to let complications or assassination
> attempts or anything make him so much as raise his voice.
>
I was actually starting to get into the humorous change of subjects.
Not quite so random after all.
> Well, after the way I complained about how random it seemed when Buffy
> decided rather abruptly to start excluding Xander from her world, she
> makes it seem less random when she and Faith start doing the same thing
> to Willow, leaving her to aggressively sulk as only Hannigan can. At
> least they're consistent.
>
> No real comment about the drowning tease, complete with slow motion.
> I'm just acknowledging its existence.
>
I think everyone else has already commented on this so......
Faith's impulsvieness gets
> the Bad Girls into a few situations, but the hairy moments and the
> near-arrest don't do anything to slow her down.
>
At this point, Faith's version of bad was a little too Bad for me. No,
Buffy. NO!!!!!!
But obviously things
> will have to be different after she inadvertently kills Allan, right?
>
Allen's appearance in the alley was a surprise. Looked like the Mayor
finally scared the crap out of him. And then the mental NOOOOOOOOO!
Very much a sit there stare at the screen and silently ponder the
ramifications. Nothing like a fantasy show hitting home with a real
dose of reality. A million and one thoughts running through my head.
How many times has this happened before? What happens now? On and On
and On and On. Good thing I taped it (at the time).
> This guy is just a moron and a complete
> incompetent, the kind of Watcher who'll cave immediately under
> anything resembling pressure.
>
Dead Man Walking with a side of Do You Need Help Getting the 2x4 Out of
Your Ass.
"If it's for me to scrub those hard-to-reach areas, I'd like to request
you kill me now"
The question is How many times can you hear that line before it stops
being funny.
> Granted, seeing
> the good guys so totally whooping ass does ruin the effect from the
> teaser of making the duelists seem like a real threat, but hey,
> there're more important things to be thinking about.
>
And my all time favorite: Buffy's last Vamp. Double Barrel with a Half
Twist.
> The real climax comes back at Lady Macbeth's place, where we have a
> scene similar to the end of "Revelations." I really thought this
> would be when Buffy would break through to her ("don't shut me
> out"). Nah, too conventional. Faith went back to dispose of the
> body; with regards to killing, she says, seeming to mean it, "you
> don't get it. I don't care." Fade to black. Well, that's the
> most memorable of the silent fade-outs thus far, to say the least.
>
Shocked silence. Disbelief.
But she's been through this thing before in FH&T. The hiding, the
running, everything's 5 by 5. One more ep and she'll be fine.
All in all.
Great to see Faith again.
Wrong dead man.
I don't care??????
and 7 days till the next Buffy
Oh, wait a minute.....
Mel
hopelessly devoted wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>>Season Three, Episode 14: "Bad Girls"
>
> or Double Barrel with a Half Twist
>
> On First Viewing On First Viewing On First Viewing
>
>
>>Faith is back in the fold full-scale now, to the point where we've
>>got an episode that's all about B and F. In case you hadn't
>>
>
>
> Always nice to see the dynamic different duo in action. Just two teen
> age girls having a perfectly normal conversation .....while
> slaying.........about sex with Xander.
>
> Cordy's being a real BITCH and back on the very personal front! "Well,
> Xander, I could dress more like you, but, oh, my father has a job."
> Taking rude to a whole new level.
Not really new for Cordelia -- she commented on Buffy's lack of two
parents in "Homecoming." For her insults, anything goes.
Mel
hopelessly devoted
True. But there was a crown at stake. It was completely acceptable
then.
;->
hopelessly devoted
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
> ive been thinking it was allen that snuck the eliminati (pun of illuminati?)
> into the mayros office
>
> that he had finally decided wilkins had to be stopped
> and initially made a deal with balthazar to kill wilkins
> and then decided to go to slayers to fight both
>
I always felt that Balthazar sent Vincent to kill the Mayor before he
could become invincible. Allen not knowing anything about it felt that
the Mayor was losing trust in him (along with fearing the Ascension)
and turned to the Slayers to stop the Mayor and for protection.
It was always interesting to me that Allen may have been accidentally
killed because he feared death at the hands of the Mayor.
:-^
KenM47
I always thought of him as the Charles Nelson Reilly of evil demons.
BTW, I'll go with Good too. I don't have a lot to say here. I did like
the new rallying cry of "Want ... Take ...Have."
It's an interesting exploration of who protects us from our
protectors.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Don Sample
"hopelessly devoted" <cry...@cinstall.com> wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Three, Episode 14: "Bad Girls"
> or Double Barrel with a Half Twist
>
> On First Viewing On First Viewing On First Viewing
>
> > Faith is back in the fold full-scale now, to the point where we've
> > got an episode that's all about B and F. In case you hadn't
> >
>
> Always nice to see the dynamic different duo in action. Just two teen
> age girls having a perfectly normal conversation .....while
> slaying.........about sex with Xander.
>
> Cordy's being a real BITCH and back on the very personal front! "Well,
> Xander, I could dress more like you, but, oh, my father has a job."
> Taking rude to a whole new level.
Naq na nggvghqr gung'f tbvat gb or ovgvat ure ba gur nff orsber zhpu
ybatre.
jil...@hotmail.com
It seemed to me that Wesley was chosen to be Buffy's new Watcher (in
the Council's opinion) because he's a tall foreigner with dark hair
and, in the right light, is actually quite handsome. In their total
and complete lack of awareness of her feelings, they thought a
good-looking young Watcher might pull her attentions away from Angel.
gree...@gmail.com
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> The real climax comes back at Lady Macbeth's place, where we have a
> scene similar to the end of "Revelations." I really thought this
> would be when Buffy would break through to her ("don't shut me
> out"). Nah, too conventional. Faith went back to dispose of the
> body; with regards to killing, she says, seeming to mean it, "you
> don't get it. I don't care."
Well, I don't know why you qualify it. After her 'out, damn spot'
moment and covering up the crime, it's crystal clear Faith really means
it.
And this episode is why I suggested you come back to the Slayer
selection process being one based on worthiness. Ubyq ba ybatre fgvyy
gubhtu; zber gb pbzr.
Terry
Scythe Matters
> Faith is back in the fold full-scale now, to the point where we've
> got an episode that's all about B and F. In case you hadn't
> noticed, they have different approaches to life.
So very incisive. ;-)
The show loves holding a mirror up to our characters, though not always
as obviously as it did in "The Wish" (the Mirror Universe analogue).
We've had Faith and Kendra to set in opposition to Buffy, not only for
their own storylines but to explore elements of Buffy herself. Wesley,
Gwen and Quentin Travers vs. Giles. Buffy's absentee father vs. Giles.
Flutie vs. Snyder. Spike vs. Angelus. Angelus vs. Angel. It goes on and
on. This episode is all about the mirror, and even though it's clearly
very much about Faith as a major recurring character, in the end it's
even more about Buffy.
> I'll complain about the new Watcher, Wesley Wyndam-Price, in a little
> bit. But he does serve his purpose with regards to the real
> protein-source of the story: Faith just says "screw that" and walks
> away, and Buffy is tempted to do the same.
As noted above, that's not the only purpose. He's designed to showcase
certain aspects of Giles. And, in fact, Giles changes here...again in
ways that I don't think you quite predicted before (don't feel bad, I
didn't either). He's been a badass before, certainly, but now he's a
*cool* badass. The entire confrontation with Balthazar just oozes casual
confidence, and that scene requires Wesley's presence and characterization.
Plus, Denisof is hilarious.
> The difference between the
> Slayers isn't a dichotomy so much as a matter of degrees.
I see it as much, much more fundamental than that. Faith, like Kendra,
is a "what if?" storyline...the kind that might easily come from a big
comic book fan, as Joss is. "What if Buffy didn't have her support
structure? What if she didn't have friends? What if she weren't governed
by an innate sense of 'rightness'?"
> uffy doesn't hold with
> all the traditions and lameness either, but she'll still mostly
> follow the rules and do her job in the end - Faith simply doesn't
> draw that line and takes the disobedience a little bit further.
A *lot* further. Since Faith's first appearance. I'm not quite sure how
this got minimized in your mind, but the differences have been stark
from moment one. Faith arrived doing what she wanted, a loner, and a
guiltless (if bad) liar. None of those things have changed...for every
attempt at reaching out ("Amends") there's been a brutal setback
("Revelations").
> The
> reason the extended temptation scenes are so effective is because on
> some level, Buffy "knows" that Faith is "right," and wishes she
> could be more like her.
Again, I don't agree with all of that. I don't think Buffy "knows" Faith
is right, though I do think she wishes she could be more like
her...Faith's road is merely another way of exploring the alternatives
to the enforced destiny that Buffy has had so much trouble accepting. At
no point does Buffy seem sure that Faith's path is the right one, only
that it's "fun" and releases her from some of the oppression she feels
from her role.
> But it's wishful
> thinking. At heart she's the good one, and I think she knows it.
Yes.
> Mayor Wilkins is coming into his own as a character here. I'm still
> not a fan of the OCD moments, and he's not as funny as someone
> thought he was, but I do quite like the way he's so matter-of-fact
> about everything and refuses to let complications or assassination
> attempts or anything make him so much as raise his voice. We've
> known for awhile that he represents a third party serving neither the
> Heroes nor the Monsters, but now we know he's fully in the realm of
> the supernatural.
A third party? His right hand guy is a vampire, and not an ensouled one.
He's enthused about the potential deaths of the Slayers. He's conspired
to steal and sacrifice babies for his own ends. He's clearly and
unquestionably on the bad side. And I think "serving" is missing the
point a bit. It seems clear, by now, that the Mayor isn't "serving"
anyone (unless there's, say, some dark power lurking in the wings, as
yet unmentioned). He intends to be the master.
> Well, after the way I complained about how random it seemed when Buffy
> decided rather abruptly to start excluding Xander from her world, she
> makes it seem less random when she and Faith start doing the same thing
> to Willow, leaving her to aggressively sulk as only Hannigan can. At
> least they're consistent.
It's a Slayer-against-the-world notion that's being fed by Faith, but
it's not the first time we've seen it, nor was "The Zeppo" the first
time. It goes all the way back to "The Harvest," and then "When She Was
Bad," is touched upon by "Becoming 1 & 2," and is revisted in "Anne,"
"Dead Man's Party," "The Wish" (in the Wishverse) and "Helpless," plus
the Buffy/returned-from-hell Angel subplot and the entire Faith arc thus
far. So they're much more consistent than it might appear. And looking
back over this list, what do we learn about what happens when Buffy
adopts this attitude? That's right: bad things happen. Very bad things.
This is why I sometimes say that you need to have more patience. ;-)
> No real comment about the drowning tease, complete with slow motion.
> I'm just acknowledging its existence.
As with the "arm in a box" comment last episode, it's a nice
back-reference. It's always good when a series remembers its continuity.
> Her shock afterward is well played, and then the way she goes back to
> look at the body makes one assume that this is a life-changing
> experience. I think this part does a lot to make the ending as
> surprising as it is.
(I'm going to clip from later in your review, to avoid duplicating
comments.)
> The real climax comes back at Lady Macbeth's place, where we have a
> scene similar to the end of "Revelations." I really thought this
> would be when Buffy would break through to her ("don't shut me
> out"). Nah, too conventional. Faith went back to dispose of the
> body; with regards to killing, she says, seeming to mean it, "you
> don't get it. I don't care." Fade to black. Well, that's the
> most memorable of the silent fade-outs thus far, to say the least.
Does she actually mean it, though? Watch Faith's reaction after the
killing, and when she goes back for the body. Watch her reaction when
Buffy knocks on her door.
Faith is a liar, as multiple episodes have shown, and not a very
convincing one at that. Why should "I don't care" be any less untruthful
bravado than so much else that she's said?
I do think Faith believes a lot of what she said earlier in the episode,
about freedom and power and the like. But not caring about Finch's
death? Given the onscreen evidence, her statement is highly unconvincing.
> There're a few pretty big flaws in the episode as far as I'm
> concerned, several of which relate to new characters. One flaw would
> have to be the new Watcher. The fake one from "Revelations" was
> much more convincing. This guy is just a moron and a complete
> incompetent, the kind of Watcher who'll cave immediately under
> anything resembling pressure. I really hope there's a plan here.
> Maybe there's more to him; maybe our esteemed staff had some reason
> for bringing him in besides to just be someone against whom for Giles
> to look good in comparison. Maybe.
He's hardly a moron, nor is he incompetent. He's far beyond Giles in the
"book learnin'" department. But in action and in human relations, yes,
he's quite incompetent. (Although, Gwen wasn't exactly a charmer
either.) He's demanding and rigid and obsessed with knowledge over the
human equation, but isn't this just Quentin Travers played for laughs
rather than for patriarchy?
Remember, Giles wasn't entirely unlike this in season one. Some
differences, yes, but minor ones in comparison to what we see now. The
point of departure is when Giles had that moment of revelation in
"Propecy Girl":
----
Giles: Buffy, I'm not gonna send you out there to die. Now, you were
right. I-I've waded around in these old books for so long, I've
forgotten what the real world is like. I-it's time I found out.
Buffy: You're still not going up against the Master.
Giles: I've made up my mind.
Buffy: So have I.
Giles: I made up my mine first! I'm older and wiser than you, and
just... just do what you're told for once! Alright?
Buffy: That's not how it goes. I'm the Slayer.
Giles: I don't care what the books say. I defy prophecy, and I am
going. There's nothing you can say will change my mind.
----
Who's to say that Wesley would not have ended up similarly different (is
that a valid phrase?), after a similar revelation? He wouldn't have had
the "Ripper" backstory, but there could be more we don't know about.
> Another flawed creation is Balthazar. This goes back to one of the
> thngs I've never been entirely comfortable with about this series:
> it's full of really stupid cartoony monsters that don't fit the
> mood of the show. To repeat an ancient complaint, if the audience
> isn't taking things seriously (and the show throws in winks and nods
> to ensure that we aren't) but the characters are, we run the risk of
> making the heroes look silly. Fortunately we don't really do that
> too often (and not with many long-term villains post-S1), but given
> that two episodes in a row have been that way, I wanted to bring it up.
I don't love Balthazar, the animatronic demon sundae. There's more to
this silly story than I think you realized, though. And others have
already pointed to most of it.
> And
> Balthazar's last words refer to one of our long-running stories or
> another. Connected with the Mayor's ritual?
Well, in television shows, that sort of juxtaposition is rarely
accidental, is it?
We know the Mayor recognizes the swords:
----
Mayor Wilkins: Well... I haven't seen anything like this in, uh...
(looks up at Allan) Well, a good long while.
----
...and who owns them:
----
Mayor Wilkins: So, any news about the Eliminati?
----
We also know the name, though very few significant details, of what the
Mayor is trying to accomplish:
----
Mayor Wilkins: (stands up) The dedication... (walks toward the liquor
cabinet) is the final step before *my Ascension*. (Allan jumps out of
his way) I have waited longer than you can imagine for this. (opens the
cabinet, opens a box of moist towelettes) After the Hundred Days, (pulls
out a towelette) I'll be on a higher plane. (steps back to Allan, wiping
his hands) And I'll have no more need for... (folds up the used
towelette) Well, let's just say I won't be concerned... with the little
things.
[...]
Mayor Wilkins: This officially commences the Hundred Days. Nothing can
harm me until *the Ascension*.
----
(highlighted text mine). Also, in concert with the previous quote, this
brings up a question: how long are "a good long while" and "longer than
you can imagine"?
There's the are-they-or-aren't-they jokes:
----
Mayor Wilkins: (shakes his finger at the office door, smiling) Backbone
of America, those little guys. Seeing the hope and courage on their
bright little faces, I swear I could just, I... I could just eat 'em up.
----
So what about Balthazar?
----
Balthazar: Let me tell you... what I want to see.
----
And what happens next in this storyline? One of his assassins tries to
kill the Mayor. Now, why would Balthazar want that to happen?
When Vincent fails, what's Balthazar's reaction?
----
Balthazar: It's been a hundred years since my enemy
crippled me. Now ultimate power is within his grasp. And I shall *not*
let it be!
----
And at the end, what's Balthazar's threat?
----
Balthazar: (weak and wheezing) Slayer! You think you've won. (chuckles
and wheezes) When *he rises*... you'll wish I'd killed you all.
----
(again, highlighted text mine)
The connections should be easy to draw at this point.
> So#2, could Buffy's reaction to the lack of news about the
> cop-maiming finally be the start of someone taking note of how strange
> a town Sunnydale itself is?
We know that the Mayor has enormous resources at his disposal (ref.
"Band Candy," for example). We know that he will employ vampire henchmen
to do dirty work for him. We know that Snyder is somehow complicit in
the coverup. We know that some top-ranking guy on the police force is
also complicit, though it seems from this episode that the entire force
isn't aware of what's going on. And we've heard rumblings about the
school board. A few key media people certainly wouldn't be a stretch.
> -The stereo glasses-clean.
Yes. Hilarious.
> I feel like I should have more to say about this episode, but I really
> don't. It was pretty good, but in many ways was mostly setup.
Well, it was. It's not immediately obvious, but "Bad Girls" functions as
a two-parter with the next episode.
Some thoughts:
1) With increasing frequency, the show has taken the opportunity to
explore the meaning of power, especially the Slayer's power. Most
importantly, this was a theme in "Ted" and "Helpless." Revisiting
something I wrote in the "Ted" review thread -- this time decrypting a
few lines (highlighted) because now they're no longer spoilers -- on the
subject of hubris:
----
I think it is the right word, though it's admittedly an extreme
characterization. "I was so hoping you'd do that" coupled with the look
on her face...what she feels here is a lack of control. When Ted hits
her, she's gleeful because it allows her to reassert control in the only
way that she knows: violence. *(Of course, this isn't the last time that
the show will examine what it means to use violence as a means of
controlling one's uncontrollable life.)* Remember just a few episodes ago:
Buffy: I wasn't gonna use violence. I don't always use violence. (looks
up at Xander) Do I?
Xander: The important thing is *you* believe that.
She _knows_ she's going to win the fight. She always does, and as I
wrote a few episodes ago (in regard to Buffy's increasing sense of
purpose, which is in conflict with what "Lie to Me" proposes as "growing
up"), she _knows_ she always does, because violence works for her (and
to the greater good) 100% of the time. What she doesn't contemplate, of
course, is what happens -- or appears to happen -- when he dies at her
hands. That's not something Buffy ever considered; she had a problem,
and she solved it the way she solves all her other problems.
Were she not completely convinced of both her skill and her
justification for violence, she'd have been less confident in the
outcome of her solution. That's hubris. And: *she's one step short of
what happens when the next Slayer comes along and acts before thinking.*
----
"Bad Girls" is the first half of "Ted" revisited, sometimes fairly
explicitly. The parallels and differences are important to notice,
because they're what the writers are trying to get across re: power, and
its differing expressions in Buffy and Faith.
2) Costuming is another winner in this episode. When Buffy's being bad,
she gets the dangerous, sexy look. In the final scene -- as with the
final scene in "Revelations" -- she's once more very feminine to
dramatically set her against her counterpart. It's nice work.
> AOQ rating: Good
Agreed, though I think I liked it more than you did.
Scythe Matters
> Vg'f vagrerfgvat jngpuvat fbzrbar ernpg gb Jrfyrl gur svefg gvzr jub unf
> ab vqrn jurer gur punenpgre jvyy riraghnyyl raq hc. Vs bayl ur unq nal
> vqrn bs Jrfyrl'f wbhearl gb pbzr. Ur naq Pbeqryvn ner cebonoyl gur gjb
> punenpgref va gur ragver Ohssl havirefr jub haqrejrag gur ovttrfg
> genafsbezngvbaf guebhtubhg gur pbhefr bs gur fntn.
Nofbyhgryl. Juvpu, bs pbhefr, znxrf zr jbaqre vs NbD jvyy *rire* trg
bire uvf Pbeqryvn guvat, fubhyq ur pubbfr gb jngpu gur fcvabss.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"jil...@hotmail.com" <jil...@hotmail.com> wrote:
in all fairness giles in welcome to the hellmouth is also a spaz
Don Sample
Scythe Matters <sp...@spam.spam> wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > The real climax comes back at Lady Macbeth's place, where we have a
> > scene similar to the end of "Revelations." I really thought this
> > would be when Buffy would break through to her ("don't shut me
> > out"). Nah, too conventional. Faith went back to dispose of the
> > body; with regards to killing, she says, seeming to mean it, "you
> > don't get it. I don't care." Fade to black. Well, that's the
> > most memorable of the silent fade-outs thus far, to say the least.
>
> Does she actually mean it, though? Watch Faith's reaction after the
> killing, and when she goes back for the body. Watch her reaction when
> Buffy knocks on her door.
>
> Faith is a liar, as multiple episodes have shown, and not a very
> convincing one at that. Why should "I don't care" be any less untruthful
> bravado than so much else that she's said?
>
> I do think Faith believes a lot of what she said earlier in the episode,
> about freedom and power and the like. But not caring about Finch's
> death? Given the onscreen evidence, her statement is highly unconvincing.
Faith is lying to everyone, including herself. The trouble with lying
to yourself though, is that if you keep doing it long enough, you start
to believe it.
jil...@hotmail.com
gree...@gmail.com wrote:
> Well, I don't know why you qualify it. After her 'out, damn spot'
> moment and covering up the crime, it's crystal clear Faith really means
> it.
>
> And this episode is why I suggested you come back to the Slayer
> selection process being one based on worthiness. Ubyq ba ybatre fgvyy
> gubhtu; zber gb pbzr.
>
> Terry
I continue to be of the opinion that the Slayer selection process for
Potentials has to do either with when they were born or when they were
conceived. (Girls born the moment a Slayer dies, for example? Big
world, lots of people born about the same time. The ones born closest
to that death having the strongest signal?)
BTR1701
Scythe Matters <sp...@spam.spam> wrote:
Fur jnf gur urneg bs gur ragver fubj. Gur svsgu frnfba bs NATRY jnf n
funqbj bs vgf sbezre frys jvgubhg ure naq gur cebqhpre'f nggrzcg ng
gelvat gb svyy gur ibvq ol fubr-ubeavat va Fcvxr jurer ur qvqa'g orybat
qvqa'g uryc ng nyy.
Gur rcvfbqr gung tnir hf Pbeqryvn'f fjna fbat ("Lbh'er Jrypbzr") jnf
yvxr n oerngu bs serfu nve. Sbe bar ubhe, V unq gur byq fubj onpx. Gura
Pbeql cnffrq ba naq vg jnf onpx gb gur "nyy Fcvxr, nyy gur gvzr" fubj.
BTR1701
Scythe Matters <sp...@spam.spam> wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > The real climax comes back at Lady Macbeth's place, where we have a
> > scene similar to the end of "Revelations." I really thought this
> > would be when Buffy would break through to her ("don't shut me
> > out"). Nah, too conventional. Faith went back to dispose of the
> > body; with regards to killing, she says, seeming to mean it, "you
> > don't get it. I don't care." Fade to black. Well, that's the
> > most memorable of the silent fade-outs thus far, to say the least.
>
> Does she actually mean it, though? Watch Faith's reaction after the
> killing, and when she goes back for the body. Watch her reaction when
> Buffy knocks on her door.
>
> Faith is a liar, as multiple episodes have shown, and not a very
> convincing one at that.
At that moment, she was utterly convincing. If she was lying, she
suddenly became not only good at it, she was like the Mozart of liars.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
fully paid-up member of atbvs again.... A couple of minor comments:
Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> (Aside: Is it
> just me, or does Buffy then act a little fonder of Xander after Faith
> mentions him? It's subtle. Or possibly nonexistent.)
Of course Buffy has been fond of Xander since the beginning, just in a
platonic way. The fondness *does* sound a little stronger here, but it's
not because the relationship is changing. Instead, it's because of the
context: talking to Faith, with no one else present who isn't about to
become dust. Before it always would have been awkward for Buffy to
discuss how much she cares for Xander with any of her friends -- too much
risk of getting Xander's hopes up or making someone else jealous. With
Faith, Buffy (being totally unaware of their fling in The Zeppo) doesn't
feel any such constraint.
> Mayor Wilkins is coming into his own as a character here. I'm still
> not a fan of the OCD moments, and he's not as funny as someone
> thought he was, but I do quite like the way he's so matter-of-fact
> about everything and refuses to let complications or assassination
> attempts or anything make him so much as raise his voice. We've
> known for awhile that he represents a third party serving neither the
> Heroes nor the Monsters, but now we know he's fully in the realm of
> the supernatural.
If I can quibble, both sides have supernatural elements. Say rather that
the Mayor is on the Monsters' side; or even better, that there are many
Monsters' sides, and the Mayor runs one of them.
> Well, after the way I complained about how random it seemed when Buffy
> decided rather abruptly to start excluding Xander from her world, she
> makes it seem less random when she and Faith start doing the same thing
> to Willow, leaving her to aggressively sulk as only Hannigan can. At
> least they're consistent.
IMO the Xander-exclusion in The Zeppo was badly exaggerated. (But I guess
it works if, as many people said in the TZ thread, you view it as Xander's
inaccurate perception.) If you leave TZ aside, Xander hasn't been
excluded all *that* much. Buffy's new drift away from Willow is something
different, more real, and even more painful.
> There're a few pretty big flaws in the episode as far as I'm
> concerned, several of which relate to new characters. One flaw would
> have to be the new Watcher. The fake one from "Revelations" was
> much more convincing. This guy is just a moron and a complete
> incompetent, the kind of Watcher who'll cave immediately under
> anything resembling pressure. I really hope there's a plan here.
I think Wesley is believable if you think about who the Council was likely
to send after what they see as Giles's "failure." They'd want someone
who'd follow the book; someone who has no record of rebellious tendencies
against the Council or anyone else; and someone too young to fall into a
father-daughter relationship with the Slayers. Wesley fits the bill.
They might well have more experienced, independent Gilesy types on staff,
but they wouldn't want to risk sending another Giles when they think the
first one was the problem. And since most of the Council members aren't
field agents themselves, they'd naturally tend to be overly impressed with
his book learnin' and insufficiently concerned about how he'd perform in
the field. He's exactly the kind of guy the Council would choose.
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
>
> answer to that. But if her attitude is really hump 'em and dump 'em, I
> wonder why she's probing along these lines now.
I can think of two possible reasons, not necessarily exclusive:
1. Faith is intrigued by the idea that she finally slept with a
more-or-less decent guy. Not that she's falling in love with him or
anything; but she is intrigued by this new experience and wants to know
more about him.
2. There's a certain still-friendly rivalry between the two Slayers, so
Faith wants to know how her Xander experience compares to Buffy's.
One Bit Shy
news:1226fb9...@corp.supernews.com...
> One Bit Shy <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>>
>> What I find more curious is why Faith is so interested. Not that I have
>> an
>> answer to that. But if her attitude is really hump 'em and dump 'em, I
>> wonder why she's probing along these lines now.
>
> I can think of two possible reasons, not necessarily exclusive:
>
> 1. Faith is intrigued by the idea that she finally slept with a
> more-or-less decent guy. Not that she's falling in love with him or
> anything; but she is intrigued by this new experience and wants to know
> more about him.
Going with that thought a moment, it occurs to me that with Faith's life in
slayer isolation she wouldn't normally find herself anywhere around the guy
after. But now she would see Xander all the time. That's a new experience
for her.
> 2. There's a certain still-friendly rivalry between the two Slayers, so
> Faith wants to know how her Xander experience compares to Buffy's.
Yes, I could go with that. Thanks.
OBS
Shuggie
>
> There're a few pretty big flaws in the episode as far as I'm
> concerned, several of which relate to new characters. One flaw would
> have to be the new Watcher. The fake one from "Revelations" was
> much more convincing. This guy is just a moron and a complete
> incompetent, the kind of Watcher who'll cave immediately under
> anything resembling pressure. I really hope there's a plan here.
> for bringing him in besides to just be someone against whom for Giles
> to look good in comparison. Maybe.
Let me put it to you this way. Did you ever watch Frasier? Did you watch
Cheers? On Cheers Dr Frasier Crane is an eccentric, an intellectual and
a bit of a snob. All things which make him perfect to be a supporting
character who's often the butt of the joke. As a central character
though it's a problem because you want someone a bit more mainstream
that the audience can identify with. On Frasier they deal with this in
two ways - first they have Martin and Daphne as more down to earth
characters (though with their own foibles - it's a sitcom after all),
second they make Frasier look more normal by having someone who's an
even more extreme example of those left-of-centre qualities - enter
Niles.
Wesley is Niles.
>
> Another flawed creation is Balthazar. This goes back to one of the
> thngs I've never been entirely comfortable with about this series:
> it's full of really stupid cartoony monsters that don't fit the
> mood of the show.
At a certain point if they bring on these characters often enough then
you have to accept that they are *part* of the mood of the show. Which
is why non-fan reviewers and commentators often refer to the show as
'campy'.
> To repeat an ancient complaint, if the audience
> isn't taking things seriously (and the show throws in winks and nods
> to ensure that we aren't) but the characters are, we run the risk of
> making the heroes look silly.
Clearly this is true for you. For me as long as they play the emotional
reality (and they do, in spades) then it works. After all, given late
'90s TV budget effects, guys with bumpy foreheads and fangs are pretty
cartoony too.
> The ending fight scene is a nice bit of adrenaline. Giles gets a great
> chance to show off what he's made of, both as a hostage ("If [you
> want] me to scrub those hard-to-reach areas, I'd like to request you
> kill me now") and when he gets his hands on a sword.
See above re: Frasier.
--
Shuggie
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> Let me put it to you this way. Did you ever watch Frasier? Did you watch
> Cheers? On Cheers Dr Frasier Crane is an eccentric, an intellectual and
> a bit of a snob. All things which make him perfect to be a supporting
> character who's often the butt of the joke. As a central character
> though it's a problem because you want someone a bit more mainstream
> that the audience can identify with. On Frasier they deal with this in
> two ways - first they have Martin and Daphne as more down to earth
> characters (though with their own foibles - it's a sitcom after all),
> second they make Frasier look more normal by having someone who's an
> even more extreme example of those left-of-centre qualities - enter
> Niles.
>
> Wesley is Niles.
Sure, but (limited familiarity with _Fraiser_ here) Niles has to work
as his own character too. Not that he has to be dignified or anything,
but a one-note person who exists solely as a plot device to make
another character look good isn't worth seeing too often. All signs
point to Wesley being that way (in BG; the later stuff I've watched at
this point is an improvement).
-AOQ
Shuggie
I was of course speaking with the benefit of having seen later episodes
but without spoiling.
hopelessly devoted
Go back and watch the final minute of BG.
Faith walks out of the bathroom to hang her shirt. Buffy stands by the
bedpost/punching bag with the face on it. First time I actually
noticed it. NOW! Watch as B moves right in front of the bedpost just
before those famous last words.
Hmmmmmm. Now that's quite possibly interesting. Maybe not. But I've
actually never noticed it before.
Does it mean anything?? Anyone??
Eric Hunter
Are you referring to the fact that the scene is shot so that
Buffy's head is at the same level as the punching-post's?
If so, I'd say it was just visual composition, not a "Faith
wants to hit Buffy" metaphor. If you're referring to
something else, I missed it.
Eric.
--
hopelessly devoted
Intentional Side by Side shot
She steps right in front of it (deliberate shot)
The ending shot is not B standing there mouth open but with the
"metaphor" slightly behind.
there are two things that I don't believe in: coincidence and
leprechauns.
John Briggs
> In article <1143068898.5...@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>> threads.
>>
>>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Three, Episode 14: "Bad Girls"
>> Writer: Doug Petrie
>> Director: Michael Lange
>>
>> I'll complain about the new Watcher, Wesley Wyndam-Price, in a little
>> bit.
>
> It's Wesley Wyndam-Pryce.
Except that the recognised spelling for the English surname is "Wyndham"
(also "Windham"). (The place-name is spelt "Wymondham" but usually
pronounced 'Windham'.) "Wesley" is a tad unusual for an English forename,
but the demonic Dean of Westminster had it, so we'll let it pass. I would
have expected "Wellesley".
--
John Briggs
Stephen Tempest
>"Wesley" is a tad unusual for an English forename,
>but the demonic Dean of Westminster had it, so we'll let it pass. I would
>have expected "Wellesley".
I certainly wouldn't - Wellesley is a surname, not a first name.
(Then again, so is 'Wesley' - if we assume his parents were
Methodists...)
FWIW, among the 50 most popular names for babies in England & Wales in
the 2000 census, we have:
5. Daniel (Oz)
12. William (Spike)
18. Liam (Angel)
21. Alexander (Xander)
23. Connor
31. Ben
32. Ethan
14. Amy
32. Jasmine
34. Elizabeth (Buffy, sort of)
Stephen
-(Which isn't even in the top 50)