AOQ Review 6-16: "Normal Again"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Six, Episode 16: "Normal Again"
(or "Slayer, interrupted")
Writer: Diego Gutierrez
Director: Rick Rosenthal
Given that it puts a stylish spin on a familiar idea, my "microcosm
for the show" moment would be the demon jabbing Buffy with the
syringe-esque weapon, cutting immediately into a doctor injecting her
with whatever. Given my days as a Trekkie I've seen shows do both
the _One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest_ thing and the "question
whether the show itself is real" thing ("Frame Of Mind" and
"Far Beyond The Stars," respectively). I'm guessing that neither
could possibly pass for a new premise. But, to quote Grand Admiral
Thrawn (no, I'm not a geek at all!), it's so artistically done. I
appreciate the way it feels like we could flip between worlds at any
second.
But first, we digress to discuss whether Xander screwed up with the
wedding (yes) and have a little scene with Willow and Tara. The
show's laying it on pretty thick with the two of them now, but it has
the actors to pull it off. Good that Wil is sort of aware that she
shouldn't jump to conclusions too quickly about the other girl, even
if she can't really help herself. For some reason I can't explain,
just having this part in the episode seems to set up the necessary
groundwork for Tara's rather cool entrance at the very end.
A story like this has to work hard on the institution portions in order
to make the questioning compelling. The psychology side of things is
pretty much nonsense, since a schizophrenic's delusions can't be
talked through that way, pretty much by definition. Which is beside
the point, of course. Otherwise, the asylum makes more logical sense
than the universe we know. It starts as a joke, with Xander's "you
think this isn't real just because of all the vampires and demons and
ex-vengeance demons and the sister that used to be a big ball of
universe-destroying energy?" But then the show gets really skillful,
creating a scenario in which the doctors know about Buffy's world,
including the luster it's losing. What looked like it could have
been a simple novelty show is instead revealed to be directly tied in
to Buffy getting fed up with and wanting to escape her life, turning it
into a story that could not have been told this way before S6.
The other piece, of course, is that "Normal Again" gets to go all
meta on us, but that's as much a side effect of the story being told
as it is an end to itself. NA is indeed very self-referential.
"Buffy inserted Dawn into her delusion, actually rewriting the entire
history of it to accommodate a need for a familial bond." "Buffy,
you used to create these grand villains to battle against, and now what
is it? Just ordinary students you went to high school with." I
don't know how much of it was drawn from actual fan criticism of the
show, but as the writers are having fun with the show's alleged
flaws, they're making it a central point that reflects on both this
episode and on Season Six as a whole. The very fact that Buffy's
life has bits in it that she can't make logical sense of (i.e. Spike,
foremost of all) is why the delusion idea, and thus the episode, works.
That's fucking brilliant writing.
NA is obviously another one of those shows that's supposed to get one
pondering. Well, there are a few connected ideas that I'm not sure
what to make of yet, and I'm curious about others' opinions. One
is Spike's "martyr" theory. I don't really see Buffy trying to
be unhappy, so I'd just dismiss it as wrong, but I feel like the
episode is trying to attach significance to that with all the dwelling
on the institution as a happy place for her. She certainly doesn't
look happy. But, I mean, there's even a reference to a "momentary
awakening" during what corresponds to her heeeaven phase. The
implication being that, if we accept this, the half-remembered paradise
that Willow pulled her back from is somewhere where she has no
responsibilities and her parents to take care of everything for her.
Here the inclusion of Joyce and Hank is important to give this reality
the personal touch.
It's strange that Buffy soon deduces that the Geek Trio did this to
her, but never pursues that thread. I guess there's a lot going on,
but still.
Memo to Dawn: Even if this were all about Buffy wanting a World
Without The Shrimp (note that it's not), I assure you she would not
be alone in this wish. Oh, and also? Shut up.
This is one of the first times that Spike knowingly lets Buffy down, a
notable contrast from his usual devotion. Maybe he doesn't
appreciate the gravity of the situation, but the others leave him to
make sure she took her demon drink, and he walks out on her after being
the one to drive her over the edge, directly setting up the end of the
show. Well done, Peroxide Boy. Unlike with Dawn, I can appreciate his
frustration with the constant mixed signals, and that moment plays out
nicely.
I've been going back and forth about whether this one should get an
Excellent just based on the concept. The mechanics of how it plays out
have to be taken into account too. A lot of the show falls into the
basic pattern of flashing back and forth between one reality and the
other, and that's kinda it, although Gellar's work is a highlight
as usual, convincingly creating a different version of her character
that ends up spilling over into "our" hero. Then Buffy hunting
down her friends is a bit straightforward. The part that bridges
these, though, is one of the more effective shocks in a little while.
Pouring the medicine out that way really did surprise me, since I
hadn't expected that the doctor (and Spike) would get to her so
thoroughly.
Will either Dawn or Xander ever pick up on certain things that were
said to them? And while I'm asking rhetorical questions, how
understanding will everyone be about the murder attempt?
Willow looks a few years younger with the ponytail.
Why don't the resident of Casa Summers lock their door?
This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
- "That's because I can't say 'glarg...!'"
- "I altered his reality! Get it, I... never mind"
- Willow's little shrug (while bound and gagged) in answer to
Xander's question of what's going on
One of the things that I was finding a bit disappointing on first
viewing is that there's not a part in which the hero steps back and
logics apart the situation before choosing to go home. Instead the
show goes with the emotional decision, and the way what she's hearing
in one world influences her behavior in the other holds together better
after thinking about it. Buffy taking Joyce's words about believing
in herself the way she does, and her quiet "thank you... goodbye"
is an interesting moment that I'd prefer not to weigh down under
reams of analysis.
That concern explained above makes sense in retrospect after having
seen the end, which doesn't remove the ambiguity. Buffy has come
home, and is no longer affected, yet the last image we see is of the
other world going on without her. Does it have an independent
existence, like a parallel universe? Or is there a chance that this is
the real deal - that somewhere in L.A., Buffy Summers is forever
catatonic and dreaming of being a hero - and everything else is
delusion? Some people might not enjoy raising a question like that,
but I find it a fundamentally disturbing final image, and a very
appropriate way to close a dense and thought-provoking episode.
Emma Caulfield does not appear in "Normal Again."
So...
One-sentence summary: Huh.
AOQ rating: Excellent
[Season Six so far:
1) "Bargaining" - Decent
2) "After Life" - Good
3) "Flooded" - Decent
4) "Life Serial" - Good
5) "All The Way" - Good
6) "Once More, With Feeling" - Excellent
7) "Tabula Rasa" - Good
8) "Smashed" - Decent
9) "Wrecked" - Good
10) "Gone" - Decent
11) "Doublemeat Palace" - Decent
12) "Dead Things" - Good
13) "Older And Faraway" - Good
14) "As You Were" - Decent
15) "Hell's Bells" - Weak
16) "Normal Again" - Excellent]
burt...@hotmail.com
there's one huge, glaring flaw in it that I can't overlook, and it
really knocks the episode down a peg or three in my view because it
pulls a retcon that fundamentally screws up a certain character WRT the
way she behaved in earlier seasons. This actually came up in a
discussion about this episode on this group last year, so I'll just
quote what that person said:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer/msg/30ab67bd260ed3b5?hl=en&
"The second thing I hate about Normal Again is the revelation that
Buffy
tried to tell her parents about being the Slayer before she ever came
to Sunnydale. She was sent to a clinic for a few weeks before she wised
up and decided to stop claiming she was a vampire killer.
Do you realize how badly that fucks up the canon? Do you realize how
utterly clueless this makes Joyce look? It's bad enough how clueless
she was beforehand, but to realize that Buffy actually told her about
vampires and that she FORGOT about having her daughter in intensive
psychiatric care for several weeks is just mind blowing. You're telling
me that throughout the entire first two seasons, all the wacky stuff
that Joyce sees doesn't make anything click in her mind? Even if she
wasn't going to realize that vampires were actually real, wouldn't she
be severely worried that Buffy's behavior was a symptom of her mental
problems?
If your daughter had to be placed in a clinic for several weeks due to
delusions, and then a year later she's coming home with blood in her
clothes, burning down her high school gym, staying out all hours of the
night, and constantly in trouble, wouldn't you perhaps think that maybe
those two things were related? That maybe she should be seeing a
therapist, at the very least? That she might have a serious mental
condition?
I'm sorry, it just makes Joyce a terrible parent. Without that
revelation, I could go with the idea that Joyce just thinks Buffy is a
troubled teenager who's acting out. I could buy into the idea that the
hellmouth is affecting her judgment like it affects so many others in
town. I could roll with the notion that Joyce is just confused and
unsure of how to deal with her daughter.
But if I take "Normal Again" as canon, I have to view Joyce as just a
terribly unattentive and uncaring mother. OR, I have to view the whole
show as Buffy's delusion. Either way, I feel like I lose."
lili...@gmail.com
Actually there's a good explantion for it.
Dawn.
They used that in the Buffy comics, basically, Buffy ended up in that
clinic, because Dawn read her diary. In a world without Dawn this
didn't happen and Buffy didn't end up in a clinic.
As such it altered history and the way that Joyce responded to it.
Lore
One Bit Shy
news:1156224127....@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 16: "Normal Again"
You came back with this episode really quick and I'm not close to done
responding to the last. (Be scared. Be very, very, scared. <g>) So I'll
sneak a response in here 'cause I don't have much to say.
Good review, incidentally.
> NA is obviously another one of those shows that's supposed to get one
> pondering. Well, there are a few connected ideas that I'm not sure
> what to make of yet, and I'm curious about others' opinions. One
> is Spike's "martyr" theory. I don't really see Buffy trying to
> be unhappy, so I'd just dismiss it as wrong, but I feel like the
> episode is trying to attach significance to that with all the dwelling
> on the institution as a happy place for her.
I think Spike's theory says more about himself than it does about Buffy.
Although this is very much Buffy's episode, there are other things in it
too. One is that we can see that Spike is struggling with being dumped by
Buffy. Even thought the words between he and Buffy at the wedding were
pretty gentle, he still was trying to make her jealous with that date. What
we see here is this eating away at him more - getting a bit testy about it.
(I mean, really, could he be more inappropriate than laying lines like that
on somebody hallucinating that they're in a mental institution?) More than
that, he's starting to rationalize why Buffy made the wrong choice.
Spike's attitude does probably contribute to Buffy falling further into the
mental ward disconnect, but I don't think it's all that particular to what
he said.
> She certainly doesn't
> look happy. But, I mean, there's even a reference to a "momentary
> awakening" during what corresponds to her heeeaven phase. The
> implication being that, if we accept this, the half-remembered paradise
> that Willow pulled her back from is somewhere where she has no
> responsibilities and her parents to take care of everything for her.
> Here the inclusion of Joyce and Hank is important to give this reality
> the personal touch.
I think the reference to the heaven phase is very clever. The thing I like
best about this episode is how often and how well it finds distinguishing
elements that work both as evidence that the mental hospital is real and as
something the delusion of a mental hospital would exploit. The magic of the
demon that stabbed Buffy, like shown so often in BtVS (including last
episode), builds off of the fears and insecurities of Buffy. And Buffy's
great issue is her sense of loss from being dragged out of heaven, the
nagging feeling that she would be better off there. Of course the delusion
would latch onto that and show it as her time of sanity. On the other hand,
it sure would explain the time missing from Buffy's life.
> One of the things that I was finding a bit disappointing on first
> viewing is that there's not a part in which the hero steps back and
> logics apart the situation before choosing to go home. Instead the
> show goes with the emotional decision, and the way what she's hearing
> in one world influences her behavior in the other holds together better
> after thinking about it. Buffy taking Joyce's words about believing
> in herself the way she does, and her quiet "thank you... goodbye"
> is an interesting moment that I'd prefer not to weigh down under
> reams of analysis.
Buffy not logically figuring things out never concerned me. I assume
because I really liked the emotional understanding conclusion and think that
it's true to the character. I don't recall hearing that as a complaint
before.
But there is sometimes a complaint about whether the reality of Sunnydale is
ever proven for the audience. Especially because of the ambiguous ending.
So maybe you'd enjoy the exercise of deducing which reality can be logically
proven. Heh.
> That concern explained above makes sense in retrospect after having
> seen the end, which doesn't remove the ambiguity. Buffy has come
> home, and is no longer affected, yet the last image we see is of the
> other world going on without her. Does it have an independent
> existence, like a parallel universe? Or is there a chance that this is
> the real deal - that somewhere in L.A., Buffy Summers is forever
> catatonic and dreaming of being a hero - and everything else is
> delusion? Some people might not enjoy raising a question like that,
> but I find it a fundamentally disturbing final image, and a very
> appropriate way to close a dense and thought-provoking episode.
Some find it so disturbing that they describe it as a betrayal of the whole
series concept. (Yes, I think that's over the top. But attachments to this
show are often very emotional. This is not a reaction I'd criticize
seriously. If anything, I think it acts as a testiment to the power of the
episode.)
Myself, I just take it as the classsic inconclusive horror story ending.
For, you know, horror never really ends. It's always lurking in the next
shadow.
There's also a fairly common explanation used to support the ongoing mental
ward delusion. At the end of the show, Buffy hasn't drunk the cure yet.
She's standing there - mentally forcing herself to stay in the Sunnydale
reality - but the magic is still in effect. Sometime after the credits roll
is when she drinks the antidote - and the mental ward goes away.
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Huh.
> AOQ rating: Excellent
This is an emotionally exhausting show. On first viewing, that translates
to strong drama. For me, on later viewings, some of that unfortunately
translates to tiresome. Not all of it stays interesting. That drags my
rating down to Good, although I really do admire the way this show is
constructed.
There is also some controversy about the retcon of Buffy having spent a
couple weeks in an institution when she first encountered vampires back
before Sunnydale. As in how could that possibly not have come up before -
especially that it must imply that Joyce knew about Buffy and vampires and
would have figured out what was going on with Buffy long before she did.
Personally, I don't think that's necessarily so.
OBS
Ian Galbraith
[snip]
> That concern explained above makes sense in retrospect after having
> seen the end, which doesn't remove the ambiguity. Buffy has come
> home, and is no longer affected, yet the last image we see is of the
> other world going on without her. Does it have an independent
> existence, like a parallel universe? Or is there a chance that this is
> the real deal - that somewhere in L.A., Buffy Summers is forever
> catatonic and dreaming of being a hero - and everything else is
> delusion? Some people might not enjoy raising a question like that,
> but I find it a fundamentally disturbing final image, and a very
> appropriate way to close a dense and thought-provoking episode.
You will undoubtedly get a lot of replies on this point but I'll just
point out that Buffy hasn't taken the cure at that point.
> Emma Caulfield does not appear in "Normal Again."
> So...
> One-sentence summary: Huh.
> AOQ rating: Excellent
Excellent for me to in fact probably a superlative, its in my top 10
episodes. It helps that I'm somewhat of a Philip K Dick devotee and NA
pushes all those buttons.
One other interesting thing, it was written by Diego Guterriez who was
Joss's assistant at the time one suspects Joss had a large hand in it.
Gutierrez never wrote for the show again.
[snip]
--
You can't stop the signal
Elisi
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 16: "Normal Again"
> (or "Slayer, interrupted")
> That's fucking brilliant writing.
Yay! I'm so glad you liked it! It's a favourite of mine!
> That concern explained above makes sense in retrospect after having
> seen the end, which doesn't remove the ambiguity. Buffy has come
> home, and is no longer affected, yet the last image we see is of the
> other world going on without her. Does it have an independent
> existence, like a parallel universe?
I don't think so... my take is that it still exists because Buffy
hasn't had the anti-dote yet.
Or is there a chance that this is
> the real deal - that somewhere in L.A., Buffy Summers is forever
> catatonic and dreaming of being a hero - and everything else is
> delusion?
In which case her name would be Joss Whedon... ;)
> Some people might not enjoy raising a question like that,
> but I find it a fundamentally disturbing final image, and a very
> appropriate way to close a dense and thought-provoking episode.
Oh yeas. Love the ending.
> AOQ rating: Excellent
Now as it happens I wrote a long essay on metaphors in S6 recently, and
dwelt on 'Normal Again' in particular. So here's what I think:
This episode is pivotal - crucial - to Buffy's development in S6.
People focus on the Alt!Buffy and ask if maybe this is 'The Real
Buffy' and the show is just all the lunatic imaginations of a sick
girl. This misses the point. As does the talk about the ret-con. My
take is, that this is the Buffy we never see - the Buffy _underneath_
everything else. Remember 'Afterlife' and what Buffy said?
"Everything here is ... hard, and bright, and violent. Everything I
feel, everything I touch ... this is Hell. Just getting through the
next moment, and the one after that ... (softly) knowing what I've
lost..."
I think the Buffy we see in the asylum is that Buffy. Everything is
hard and bright and violent to her. The world makes no sense. As she
sings in OMWF:
"I can't even see, if this is really me..."
And it goes further back than this even. Remember 'The Gift'?
"I don't understand. I don't know how to live in this world, if these
are the choices, if everything's just stripped away then I don't see
the point. I just wish... I wish my mom was here."
This is the girl who finds it so hard to look after her sister, the
girl who turns to Spike, because pain is at least something she
understands. Try to watch Alt!Buffy and compare her to the Buffy
who's just crawled out of her grave. There's the same lost, scared
expression on her face, the same inability to deal with the world. This
is what I meant when I said that Buffy didn't take responsibility for
herself - she's been stuck in that same place all season, scared and
unable to cope. She's made a lot of progress, but emotionally she's
been very shut down. And Spike is right to some extent:
SPIKE: You're addicted to the misery. It's why you won't tell your pals
about us. Might actually have to be happy if you did. They'd either
understand and help you, god forbid ... or drive you out ... where you
can finally be at peace, in the dark. With me. Either way, you'd be
better off for it, but you're too twisted for that. Let yourself live,
already. And stop with the bloody hero trip for a sec. We'd all be the
better for it.
She *is* addicted to the misery. Or rather, she's been stuck with it,
not knowing how to get out. And we've seen this before, if slightly
differently, in 'Weight of the World' (5.21) - Buffy going in
circles in her own head, unable to leave.
In S6 she has wanted (_needed_) *someone* to make it better. But Giles
left, and Spike was unable to do what she hoped, and there was no one
who could fix everything _for_ her. So she's been stuck in the same
spot - until this episode, when she finally makes a choice. But notice
- first she makes the wrong choice. Like in WOTW when she kept
smothering her sister - only this time reversed: Attacking her friends,
even Dawn, in real life. Tries to *eradicate* everything that is hard
to deal with, rather than just ignore it as she has done all season.
She doesn't lose completely, but it's a battle - and she's
battling for her very self. The self where she has tried to hold onto
the things she lost (literally and metaphorically) when she grew up -
her parents. Her right to be the child and be looked after. But when
everything looks darkest, we get this beautiful speech from Joyce ("I
just wish my mom was here..."):
JOYCE: "Buffy? Buffy! Buffy, fight it. You're too good to give in, you
can beat this thing. Be strong, baby, ok? I know you're afraid. I know
the world feels like a hard place sometimes, but you've got people who
love you. Your dad and I, we have all the faith in the world in you.
We'll always be with you. You've got ... a world of strength in your
heart. I know you do. You just have to find it again. Believe in
yourself."
And she does. She finally takes a step forward and leaves the old her
behind, choosing to live. She takes responsibility for herself again.
Takes control. Grows up. And leaves Alt!Buffy, who's now nothing more
than an empty shell.
And finally:
"When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought
as a child. Now that I have become a man, I have put away childish
things."
Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians 13:12
Apteryx
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 16: "Normal Again"
> (or "Slayer, interrupted")
> Writer: Diego Gutierrez
> Director: Rick Rosenthal
>
>
>
> One-sentence summary: Huh.
>
> AOQ rating: Excellent
Finally (after only 117 episodes) there is one where I agree so fully
with your review that there is no reason for me to add any comments to
it - and not just because I am trying to hurry through Gotterdammerung
in time to watch the next BtVS episdode after it...
Well, except to add that having Buffy say she was once in psychiatric
institution was a mistake, since it is impossible to believe that Joyce
in season 1 and 2 had that history in mind. It is also unnecessary,
since if the institutional Buffy is real, and Sunnydale is a delusion,
she might easily have kept any psychiatric history out of her delusion,
so that while at first appearance the reference to that history might
appear to lend credibility to the notion that institutional Buffy is
real, it actually doesn't. But nothing's perfect.
NA is my 8th favourite BtVS episode, 2nd best in season 6.
Apteryx
vague disclaimer
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 16: "Normal Again"
> (or "Slayer, interrupted")
> Writer: Diego Gutierrez
> Director: Rick Rosenthal
>
> That's fucking brilliant writing.
Wouldn't argue with that (except for one caveat). Diego Guitierrez is/
was Joss personal assistant). I though Buffy's blank-faced hunting of
her friends was rather well done.
<snip>
> One of the things that I was finding a bit disappointing on first
> viewing is that there's not a part in which the hero steps back and
> logics apart the situation before choosing to go home. Instead the
> show goes with the emotional decision, and the way what she's hearing
> in one world influences her behavior in the other holds together better
> after thinking about it. Buffy taking Joyce's words about believing
> in herself the way she does, and her quiet "thank you... goodbye"
> is an interesting moment that I'd prefer not to weigh down under
> reams of analysis.
This is the type of thing that makes me want to go geek clubbing, there
being no baby seals around my way.
It is not about logic - not way, not at all. It is about how, even in
the midst of a terrifying delusion, Buffy's year-dead-now mother still
comes through for her.
And Buffy gets a chance to say the goodbye in a way she didn't last year.
> That concern explained above makes sense in retrospect after having
> seen the end, which doesn't remove the ambiguity. Buffy has come
> home, and is no longer affected, yet the last image we see is of the
> other world going on without her. Does it have an independent
> existence, like a parallel universe? Or is there a chance that this is
> the real deal - that somewhere in L.A., Buffy Summers is forever
> catatonic and dreaming of being a hero - and everything else is
> delusion? Some people might not enjoy raising a question like that,
> but I find it a fundamentally disturbing final image, and a very
> appropriate way to close a dense and thought-provoking episode.
>
She was still under the influence of the poison, a point that many of
those-who-need-clubbing seemed to miss, causing them go off the deep
end. I wonder if anyone has ever done a scientific study on the
relationship between geekdom and attention span.
Or perhaps they just saw some chocolate.
The caveat: The "i was in the funny farm" retcon was clumsy and
unnecessary. In the commentary it is implied that it was done just
because they can, which is never a good reason. Easy enough to fanwank
away (Dawn-induced false memory), but still clumsy and unnecessary.
It causes many a needs-clubbing to go off at the same deep end, almost
as if, instead of saying "we will fight them on the beaches", Winston
had said "Just kidding, letting the little fella in" (can't be arsed to
tippy-toe around Godwin). I see one of the Nodding Dogs has tipped up
already. The others can't be far behind. They usually whine in packs.
--
Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
jil...@hotmail.com
along the lines of "You expect us to believe that Buffy was
institutionalized when that never, ever came up after Joyce found out
vampires were real?!" Well, it's understandable that people would be
outraged. However, it's not like adding a broader element to the story
really ruins it, despite what you'll read.
My take on Normal Again is this: Somewhere, in another reality,
there's a Buffy Summers whose mind is tapped into the Buffy Summers of
this universe. I fundamentally reject that waking up in an insane
asylum and spending the summer with her doting, relieved parents would
qualify as the extreme sense of heaven that Buffy came back from. The
drug reversed the feedback, and Buffy of "our" universe tapped into the
other Buffy.
As for mixed signals... well, yes poor Spike used to get mixed signals.
Now, however, Buffy's giving pretty clear signals. They go like this:
"I am going to be nice to you, and considerate of how much I know you
feel. But I am not going to be your lover. And I am going to avoid
being alone with you."
jil...@hotmail.com
never hear WHEN Buffy told her parents about vampires, or how long
she'd been the Slayer. I go with it being the explanation she tried to
give for why she burned down the school gym. And I suspect Hank
Summers was the primary behind putting her in care. And I suspect
arguments with Joyce about this to be the straw that broke the camel's
back and what finally made them divorce.
So, we have Joyce blaming her daughter's break on the troubles between
herself and Hank, choosing to ignore the vampire stuff and move her
daughter to a new town, far away from the clinic they'd put her in.
And of course only Sunnydale High would have Buffy after this business
of the gym.
Sam
What, not even the ones written by Whedon? There are story elements
which originated in FRAY and actually later showed up in the series,
after all -- I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that FRAY, if nothing else,
is canon.
And then there's the small fact that Joss has announced that they're
doing Buffy: Season 8 as a comic series.
--Sam
rrh...@acme.com
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Huh.
>
> AOQ rating: Excellent
Normal Again was the first episode I watched. I was aware of the
existence of the show all along but had never caught anything more than
flashes as I surfed by, and thought it was a mere bit of fluff (like
Clueless, which was a lesser show but based on a better movie). Normal
Again caught my attention and I watched through the end of the episode.
I was hooked and the rest is history.
It gives me an unusual perspective on the series. Most people started
with the happy-go-lucky period, when saving the world was a frolic.
The later, non-frolicsome approach to apocalypses doesn't appeal to
everyone, but it is what sucked me in.
Richard R. Hershberger
Opus the Penguin
> I'm sorry, it just makes Joyce a terrible parent. Without that
> revelation, I could go with the idea that Joyce just thinks Buffy
> is a troubled teenager who's acting out. I could buy into the idea
> that the hellmouth is affecting her judgment like it affects so
> many others in town. I could roll with the notion that Joyce is
> just confused and unsure of how to deal with her daughter.
>
> But if I take "Normal Again" as canon, I have to view Joyce as
> just a terribly unattentive and uncaring mother. OR, I have to
> view the whole show as Buffy's delusion. Either way, I feel like I
> lose."
This person just REALLY (ha ha) doesn't get it. Those things happened
in the Buffyverse because Buffyverse mom is a construct of Buffy's
imagination and not a real parent at all. As such she is by turns
caring and inattentive, loving and distant--just as most parents are.
But like everything else in RealBuffy's self-created world, these
things are magnified to the point where they'd be ridiculous in the
real world.
"Normal Again" is brilliant because it explains EVERYTHING. It's the
only time I've seen a plot like this where I've ended up
acknowledging that the mental patient (or whatever) premise is a real
possibility for the character.
--
Opus the Penguin
The best darn penguin in all of Usenet
Opus the Penguin
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer/msg/30ab67bd26
> 0ed3b5?hl=en&
>
> "The second thing I hate about Normal Again is the revelation that
> Buffy
> tried to tell her parents about being the Slayer before she ever
> came to Sunnydale. She was sent to a clinic for a few weeks before
> she wised up and decided to stop claiming she was a vampire
> killer.
>
> Do you realize how badly that fucks up the canon? Do you realize
> how utterly clueless this makes Joyce look? It's bad enough how
> clueless she was beforehand, but to realize that Buffy actually
> told her about vampires and that she FORGOT about having her
> daughter in intensive psychiatric care for several weeks is just
> mind blowing.
Uh, hello? That happened in REAL LA, not Buffyverse LA. In Buffyverse
LA (which she went into after things got screwed up in REAL LA), she
decided not to tell Mom after all. That's a logical decision
considering the real trouble that real decision got her into.
So in Buffyverse LA, they move to Sunnydale without Mom being any
wiser. And Mom doesn't get any wiser for a long time even though
weird things are happening all around her and students are getting
killed at the school (but, hey, let's still finish out the day of
classes and have Talent Night to boot) and ... etc. Finally, due to
some psychic need or burden on RealBuffy's part, the Buffyverse Mom
figures things out LONG after a real person would have figured things
out.
Opus the Penguin
> But there is sometimes a complaint about whether the reality of
> Sunnydale is ever proven for the audience. Especially because of
> the ambiguous ending. So maybe you'd enjoy the exercise of
> deducing which reality can be logically proven. Heh.
No. It's not proven. It can't be proven. The viewer is invited to make
the same emotional leap that Buffy makes and tell logic and,
potentially, reality to go get stuffed.
Opus the Penguin
> There is also some controversy about the retcon of Buffy having
> spent a couple weeks in an institution when she first encountered
> vampires back before Sunnydale. As in how could that possibly not
> have come up before - especially that it must imply that Joyce
> knew about Buffy and vampires and would have figured out what was
> going on with Buffy long before she did. Personally, I don't think
> that's necessarily so.
Of course not. As I've pointed out, this complaint involves a
fundamental failure to distinguish what happened in the real world
versus what happened in the Buffyverse. In the Buffyverse, she never
went into that institution. We would have heard about it if she had.
QED.
Opus the Penguin
> The caveat: The "i was in the funny farm" retcon was clumsy and
> unnecessary. In the commentary it is implied that it was done just
> because they can, which is never a good reason. Easy enough to
> fanwank away (Dawn-induced false memory), but still clumsy and
> unnecessary.
Doesn't even have to be Dawn-induced. It was RealBuffy induced. Her
worlds are collapsing together a little.
burt...@hotmail.com
> (burt...@hotmail.com) quoted:
>
> > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer/msg/30ab67bd26
> > 0ed3b5?hl=en&
> >
> > "The second thing I hate about Normal Again is the revelation that
> > Buffy
> > tried to tell her parents about being the Slayer before she ever
> > came to Sunnydale. She was sent to a clinic for a few weeks before
> > she wised up and decided to stop claiming she was a vampire
> > killer.
> >
> > Do you realize how badly that fucks up the canon? Do you realize
> > how utterly clueless this makes Joyce look? It's bad enough how
> > clueless she was beforehand, but to realize that Buffy actually
> > told her about vampires and that she FORGOT about having her
> > daughter in intensive psychiatric care for several weeks is just
> > mind blowing.
>
> Uh, hello? That happened in REAL LA, not Buffyverse LA. In Buffyverse
> LA (which she went into after things got screwed up in REAL LA), she
> decided not to tell Mom after all. That's a logical decision
> considering the real trouble that real decision got her into.
Um, no. When Buffy's talking to Willow, she reveals that she told her
parents about being the Slayer and got sent to a clinic for a few weeks
until she decided to stop claiming she'd been killing vampires. That
happened in the Buffyverse, not the "Normal Again" asylumverse. So, as
far as Joyce knew, her daughter had been suffering from delusions
severe enough to warrant being institutionalized for a few weeks, and
yet somehow she didn't think to connect that with any of Buffy's
bizarre behavior in the first two seasons (before she found out that
vampires were real).
Either that, or the whole show is just Buffy's delusion. I guess we
were just wasting our time in caring what happened to these characters,
eh?
burt...@hotmail.com
That's all well and good for the comics, but we're talking about the
show here. Comics aren't part of show canon. In the show canon, Buffy
told her parents she was the Slayer and was institutionalized as a
result. It had nothing to do with Dawn.
burt...@hotmail.com
Um, there was nothing frolicsome about the Angelus arc.
One Bit Shy
news:Xns98277166B60EBop...@127.0.0.1...
LOL! Well, if you go with mental patient Buffy as the real one, then that
actually makes sense, though I hadn't thought of it before reading your
posts.
But it's not necessarily a problem with a real Sunnydale either. Buffy
doesn't actually say much about that incident. It's main purpose is to give
the Sunnydale Buffy a reason to believe the mental patient Buffy could be
real, not to flesh out a past event. So we know next to nothing about what
Buffy actually told her parents, and exactly nothing about how her parents
heard her and what they were thinking of when they sent her to the clinic.
Her parents need not have understood that Buffy was talking of vampires -
Buffy may not even have used that word. They might not have been thinking
of anything delusional at all.
There are innumerable ways that the event could have played out without the
lasting impact retcon complainers assume. One simple example could be that
one of Buffy's first encounters with vampires was seeing them kill a few
kids in a park or something - which would be traumatic enough to freak her
out and make her talk to her parents. Now, dead bodies of kids in the
park - presumably with torn throats - is the kind of thing that would make
the news. So when Buffy is babbling to her parents about these monsters
killing kids in the park, her parents would likely be thinking, Oh, my, god!
Buffy witnessed that horrible murder! The nonsense about monsters wouldn't
necessarily register. They'd be focused on Buffy's trauma, and that's what
they sent her to be treated for.
That's just an illustration of what could be. Their are an infinite number
of scenarios and rationales that would not lead to Joyce making connections
to it in Sunnydale. The point is that we know next to nothing. There's
insufficient grounding to assume it must be a problem.
OBS
rrh...@acme.com
Angelus himself, and his actions? Not frolicsome at all, I will grant
you. But the overall tenor of season 2 vs. season 6? Season 2 was
downright giggly by comparison. And even the Angelus arc was a
metaphor for teen love gone bad, not for suicidal depression. The one
is romantic, even when tragicly so. The other calls for a 24/7 suicide
watch.
Richard R. Hershberger
One Bit Shy
news:1156239331.6...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
It does nothing to make institutional Buffy more real, but that's not its
purpose. What it does is give Sunnydale Buffy reason to think that it could
be real. It's a device for Buffy herself - not us, the audience. Without
that kind of foundation to think that she could be making Sunnydale up,
institutional Buffy would seem preposterous to her. She already has the
Sunnydale explanation for her hallucination of the mental ward - the demon
that stabbed her. And she already knows how Sunnydale magic likes to prey
on people's fears. Without a reason to think the mental ward is possible,
the Sunnydale explanation would win out hands down.
It also establishes a little internal story continuity. Why would the
demon's magic generate that particular hallucination? As a random choice,
it's kind of weird, and awfully convenient - unless institutional Buffy is
real. That would explain it and act as evidence that Sunnydale is fake.
But by giving Buffy that piece of personal history, it then gives the magic
something within Buffy to latch upon, to prey upon in the Sunnydale magic
way. Which makes it more possible for Sunnydale to be real.
Curious effect. On the one hand it helps Buffy believe that the mental ward
is real. On the other hand it actually solidifies the believability of
Sunnydale. Clever little device.
OBS
Don Sample
Since both Sunnydale and the mental institution are fantasies, there is
no way to deduce which one it "real."
That being said, if Buffy has been hallucinating all these years about
what is really happening in Sunnydale, then she has also been having
hallucinations about what Angel and co have been doing for the last
three years in L.A.
Some people point to the final scene, where Buffy is still in the
hospital and call that proof that it is the "real" world, because that's
what the standard convention is for such things, but Joss has always
enjoyed standing conventions on their ears, plus, within the context of
the story, Buffy has yet to take the antidote, so she is still
hallucinating.
>
>
> > That concern explained above makes sense in retrospect after having
> > seen the end, which doesn't remove the ambiguity. Buffy has come
> > home, and is no longer affected, yet the last image we see is of the
> > other world going on without her. Does it have an independent
> > existence, like a parallel universe? Or is there a chance that this is
> > the real deal - that somewhere in L.A., Buffy Summers is forever
> > catatonic and dreaming of being a hero - and everything else is
> > delusion? Some people might not enjoy raising a question like that,
> > but I find it a fundamentally disturbing final image, and a very
> > appropriate way to close a dense and thought-provoking episode.
>
> Some find it so disturbing that they describe it as a betrayal of the whole
> series concept. (Yes, I think that's over the top. But attachments to this
> show are often very emotional. This is not a reaction I'd criticize
> seriously. If anything, I think it acts as a testiment to the power of the
> episode.)
And it is only a betrayal if you accept the idea that the hospital was
real, and Sunnydale is the hallucination.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
vague disclaimer
Opus the Penguin <opusthepen...@gmail.com> wrote:
> vague disclaimer (l64o...@dea.spamcon.org) wrote:
>
> > The caveat: The "i was in the funny farm" retcon was clumsy and
> > unnecessary. In the commentary it is implied that it was done just
> > because they can, which is never a good reason. Easy enough to
> > fanwank away (Dawn-induced false memory), but still clumsy and
> > unnecessary.
>
> Doesn't even have to be Dawn-induced. It was RealBuffy induced. Her
> worlds are collapsing together a little.
Well, yeah. Or you could use elements that are already in the story.
One Bit Shy
news:l64o-1rj5-A1027...@europe.isp.giganews.com...
> In article <1156224127....@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> Wouldn't argue with that (except for one caveat). Diego Guitierrez is/
> was Joss personal assistant). I though Buffy's blank-faced hunting of
> her friends was rather well done.
Oh, yeah. Bonking Xander with the frying pan is one of the most startling
moments in the series. It's funny in a way - and I nervously chuckle at
it - but it so captures how the dellusion has taken her over. Suddenly her
friends look like the things that are destroying her...
Which is one of the elements of her broader problem of returning from the
dead that this episode ultimately deals with.
>> One of the things that I was finding a bit disappointing on first
>> viewing is that there's not a part in which the hero steps back and
>> logics apart the situation before choosing to go home. Instead the
>> show goes with the emotional decision, and the way what she's hearing
>> in one world influences her behavior in the other holds together better
>> after thinking about it. Buffy taking Joyce's words about believing
>> in herself the way she does, and her quiet "thank you... goodbye"
>> is an interesting moment that I'd prefer not to weigh down under
>> reams of analysis.
>
> This is the type of thing that makes me want to go geek clubbing, there
> being no baby seals around my way.
>
> It is not about logic - not way, not at all. It is about how, even in
> the midst of a terrifying delusion, Buffy's year-dead-now mother still
> comes through for her.
>
> And Buffy gets a chance to say the goodbye in a way she didn't last year.
Aw, now you're going to make me cry. Great moment, isn't it? It's also
nice that someone from her past besides Riley can help her. <g>
Which, incidentally, points out something else about their function in
Buffy's recovery. It's not just outside agents coming in to cure Buffy.
(Joyce isn't even really an outside agent. She's entirely constructed
within Buffy's mind.) It's part of Buffy finding herself again. The people
in her past, what they meant to her, are part of her rooting, what makes her
what she is. They are part of her, so reconnecting to them, reconnects to
herself.
OBS
Don Sample
Opus the Penguin <opusthepen...@gmail.com> wrote:
Except it didn't happen that way:
Willow: Buffy, look at me. You are not in an institution. You
have never been in an institution.
Buffy: Yes, I have.
Willow: What?
Buffy: Back when I saw my first vampires. I got so scared. I
told my parents, and they completely freaked out. They
thought there was something seriously wrong with me.
So they sent me to a clinic.
Willow: You never said anything.
Buffy: I was only there a couple of weeks. I stopped talking
about it, and they let me go. Eventually...my parents
just...forgot.
Buffy spending time in the clinic is now part of her Sunnydale history.
And even after she was so worried about her daughter's mental health
that Joyce did that, she spends the next two years being completely
oblivious. The scene in "Witch" in which Buffy comes into the kitchen
singing and dancing and talking about how the older generation just
can't understand what it's like to be a Vampire Slayer makes no sense if
what Buffy said here in "Normal Again" is true. Joyce should have been
panicking, thinking that Buffy is having a relapse, and making
appointments with a shrink for her.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> Some people point to the final scene, where Buffy is still in the
> hospital and call that proof that it is the "real" world, because that's
> what the standard convention is for such things, but Joss has always
> enjoyed standing conventions on their ears, plus, within the context of
> the story, Buffy has yet to take the antidote, so she is still
> hallucinating.
the problem is that if you want
people to become emotionally invested in the story
you need them to suspend disbelief and accept the premise
such as vampires are real
most of the viewers really know vampires (other than bill gates) arent real
but a show like this which repudiates its own premise
can feel like the show is laughing at the viewers for making the investment
i didnt watch dallas but ive heard the shower scene
pretty much ended it for most viewers
when a comedy like bob newhart does it
its more acceptable because youre willing to laugh at and with the show
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
Stephen Tempest
>Except it didn't happen that way:
>
> Willow: Buffy, look at me. You are not in an institution. You
> have never been in an institution.
> Buffy: Yes, I have.
> Willow: What?
> Buffy: Back when I saw my first vampires. I got so scared. I
> told my parents, and they completely freaked out. They
> thought there was something seriously wrong with me.
> So they sent me to a clinic.
> Willow: You never said anything.
> Buffy: I was only there a couple of weeks. I stopped talking
> about it, and they let me go. Eventually...my parents
> just...forgot.
>
>Buffy spending time in the clinic is now part of her Sunnydale history.
>And even after she was so worried about her daughter's mental health
>that Joyce did that, she spends the next two years being completely
>oblivious. The scene in "Witch" in which Buffy comes into the kitchen
>singing and dancing and talking about how the older generation just
>can't understand what it's like to be a Vampire Slayer makes no sense if
>what Buffy said here in "Normal Again" is true. Joyce should have been
>panicking, thinking that Buffy is having a relapse, and making
>appointments with a shrink for her.
'Panicking thinking Buffy is having a relapse'? There was never
anything wrong with her - otherwise the clinic wouldn't have just 'let
her go'. They would have kept her in indefinitely, or put her on
medication, or given her therapy... and charged her parents huge
amounts of money for the privilege, no doubt - but no. They 'let her
go'.
Which strongly leads me to suspect that what the doctor said to Mr and
Mrs Summers is "your daughter has a highly active imagination, but
there's nothing mentally wrong with her. If she makes up any more
stories about monsters, just humour her, but don't encourage her.
She'll grow out of it eventually.."
Which doesn't mean that Joyce didn't do her share of panicking. Her
daughter was a delinquent, after all - fighting, cutting classes, and
then burning down the school gymnasium. But she's rightly far more
worried that Buffy is getting mixed up with gangs and stuff than about
her vampire-slaying fantasies - which the doctors have presumably
assured her were *not* a sign of mental illness...
Stephen
Rowan Hawthorn
> It causes many a needs-clubbing to go off at the same deep end, almost
> as if, instead of saying "we will fight them on the beaches", Winston
> had said "Just kidding, letting the little fella in" (can't be arsed to
> tippy-toe around Godwin). I see one of the Nodding Dogs has tipped up
> already. The others can't be far behind. They usually whine in packs.
Your turn to owe me a keyboard...
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> threads.
>
> Season Six, Episode 16: "Normal Again"
> Writer: Diego Gutierrez
> Director: Rick Rosenthal
.
> But first, we digress to discuss whether Xander screwed up with the
> wedding (yes)
Not that it's as simple as that. Xander is now worried that he made a big
mistake, just like in HB when he was worried that getting married would be
a big mistake. He hasn't yet decided that he definitely should have gone
through with the wedding, and if his friends think he should they're
remaining tactfully quiet. If you were waiting for the show to take a
definite position on whether he did right or not, you'll have to keep
waiting.
Then Buffy tells Xander "Hey, we all screw up," and we cut immediately to
Spike. Heh. And then Spike and Xander take out their romantic
frustrations on each other. Sorry, couldn't resist.
> The other piece, of course, is that "Normal Again" gets to go all
> meta on us, but that's as much a side effect of the story being told
> as it is an end to itself. NA is indeed very self-referential.
> "Buffy inserted Dawn into her delusion, actually rewriting the entire
> history of it to accommodate a need for a familial bond." "Buffy,
> you used to create these grand villains to battle against, and now what
> is it? Just ordinary students you went to high school with." I
> don't know how much of it was drawn from actual fan criticism of the
> show, but as the writers are having fun with the show's alleged
> flaws, they're making it a central point that reflects on both this
> episode and on Season Six as a whole. The very fact that Buffy's
> life has bits in it that she can't make logical sense of (i.e. Spike,
> foremost of all) is why the delusion idea, and thus the episode, works.
> That's fucking brilliant writing.
They took all these self-referential bits that could have made great
komedy and intead used them for a very serious exploration of Buffy's
character. When I first saw Normal Again, I thought about how it might
have been as a lighthearted self-referential comedy episode, and I
shuddered. This way was much better.
> Memo to Dawn: Even if this were all about Buffy wanting a World
> Without The Shrimp (note that it's not), I assure you she would not
> be alone in this wish. Oh, and also? Shut up.
>
> This is one of the first times that Spike knowingly lets Buffy down, a
> notable contrast from his usual devotion. Maybe he doesn't
> appreciate the gravity of the situation, but the others leave him to
> make sure she took her demon drink, and he walks out on her after being
> the one to drive her over the edge, directly setting up the end of the
> show. Well done, Peroxide Boy. Unlike with Dawn, I can appreciate his
> frustration with the constant mixed signals, and that moment plays out
> nicely.
It's nice to see that Dawn and Spike have so much in common now. They're
both concerned for Buffy, but their reactions are both very ... well,
rhymes with "blelf-centered." As soon as she learns that she iss not in
Buffy's alternate reality, Dawn homes in on that one fact and forgets
everything else. She also leaps to the worst possible interpretation,
that in her hallucinations Buffy is *escaping* from Dawn rather than, say,
being dragged away from Dawn. This part is Dawn assuming her most
personal fears are coming true, and then blaming Buffy as if this
assumption was proven fact. As for Spike and his theory that Buffy's
addicted to misery, as he expounds it, it all revolves around her
relationship with *him*. "You're addicted to the misery. It's why you
won't tell your pals about us. Might actually have to be happy if you did.
They'd either understand and help you, God forbid, or drive you out, where
you can finally be at peace, in the dark. With me. Either way, you'd be
better off for it, but you're too twisted for that." Buffy's troubles in
life go way beyond her relationship with him (there's that ripped out of
heaven bit, for instance), but Spike's too obsessed with her to talk
about the non-Spike parts of her life.
> Then Buffy hunting
> down her friends is a bit straightforward.
Straightforward, but intense. Buffy's sudden attack on Xander was
shocking, and her Terminator-like hunting of Dawn topped it. And poor
Willow, tied up on the basement floor.... These are some of the strongest
images in NA, *almost* topping Buffy seeing Joyce in the mental assylum.
So Buffy believes the hallucination, tries to kill her friends, then
decides Sunnydale is real and goes "back" to save them. There are several
possible interpretations. One is that Buffy realized the mental
institution was a demonic hallucination because it was a little too
suspiciously eager for her to kill her friends. However, SMG doesn't seem
to play it that way; it looks like she's making a choice, rather than
suddenly realizing a truth. Another possibility is that she *felt* that
Sunnydale was real because of the strength of her emotional reaction as
she watched Dawn, Willow and Xander about to be killed. IMO this is the
interpretation that fits the episode best. But another possibility is
that Buffy had no idea which universe was real, and chose Sunnydale
because that's the one she *wanted* to live in. I don't think that fits
what we see on the screen as well as the second possibility, but it's the
most *interesting* one. Either way, it was an especially nice touch to
have Buffy's decision come after Joyce's "believe in yourself" speech.
If you're looking for a moment when Buffy definitely commits to living her
post-heaven life, this is it.
I think the bit about Buffy's previous trip to a mental institution was a
definite continuity error, and one that was totally unnecessary for the
episode to work. I have adopted a policy of blithely ignoring such
continuity errors as long as they don't appear repeatedly or become
important plot points.
> AOQ rating: Excellent
Yeah, despite the continuity error, I'll give it an Excellent too. V
guvax Abezny Ntnva vf gur rcvfbqr gung raqrq frnfba fvk'f jrnx zvqqyr
crevbq. Gubhtu gung jrnx crevbq unfa'g ybbxrq fb jrnx ba erprag erjngpuvat
(znlor vg'f NBD'f vasyhrapr?). Vg jnf whfg n fgergpu jvgu ab rkpryyrag
rcvfbqrf, frireny zrqvhz barf, naq n pbhcyr bs orybj-nirentr barf.
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
Rowan Hawthorn
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 16: "Normal Again"
> (or "Slayer, interrupted")
> Writer: Diego Gutierrez
> Director: Rick Rosenthal
>
>
> - "That's because I can't say 'glarg...!'"
> - "I altered his reality! Get it, I... never mind"
> - Willow's little shrug (while bound and gagged) in answer to
> Xander's question of what's going on
In the shooting script, there's a short bit that didn't make it to the
screen. I kinda wish it had, if only for the conversations it would
have generated here:
Buffy walks down the stairs in a new outfit. She joins Willow in the
dining room at her computer.
BUFFY: I could wrestle naked in grease for a living and still be cleaner
than after a shift at the Doublemeat.
WILLOW: Plus, I'd visit you at work every single day.
BUFFY: (smiles) So, what'you doing?
See that!? That's UST! <snicker>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Huh.
>
> AOQ rating: Excellent
That's a little higher than I'd rate it (using your system, I'd probably
go with "Good",) but that's probably because I find it painful. Never
let it be said that Joss & Co doesn't know how to twist the knife...
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
Forgot to mention that the doctor was played by Michael Warren, who also
played Officer Bobby Hill on Hill Street Blues, which was my favorite TV
show as a teenager. (I sneered at Miami Vice.)
DysgraphicProgrammer
Rowan Hawthorn wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > threads.
> >
> >
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Six, Episode 16: "Normal Again"
> > (or "Slayer, interrupted")
> > Writer: Diego Gutierrez
> > Director: Rick Rosenthal
> >
> >
> > This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> > - "That's because I can't say 'glarg...!'"
> > - "I altered his reality! Get it, I... never mind"
> > - Willow's little shrug (while bound and gagged) in answer to
> > Xander's question of what's going on
>
> In the shooting script, there's a short bit that didn't make it to the
> screen. I kinda wish it had, if only for the conversations it would
> have generated here:
>
> Buffy walks down the stairs in a new outfit. She joins Willow in the
> dining room at her computer.
>
> BUFFY: I could wrestle naked in grease for a living and still be cleaner
> than after a shift at the Doublemeat.
>
> WILLOW: Plus, I'd visit you at work every single day.
>
> BUFFY: (smiles) So, what'you doing?
>
>
> See that!? That's UST! <snicker>
<Imagines... >
I'll be in my bunk.
BTR1701
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> (Joyce isn't even really an outside agent. She's entirely constructed
> within Buffy's mind.)
Or is she?
BTR1701
> That being said, if Buffy has been hallucinating all these years about
> what is really happening in Sunnydale, then she has also been having
> hallucinations about what Angel and co have been doing for the last
> three years in L.A.
That's not really evidence for anything. The fact that there's another
series using those characters on TV is information from outside the
narrative of the story being presented. The machinations of the
real-world television industry don't serve to prove or disprove anything
within the context of the story being presented.
BTR1701
Opus the Penguin <opusthepen...@gmail.com> wrote:
Yep. It explains why the folks in Sunnydale don't notice the bad stuff
happening right in front of their eyes. It explains how huge towers can
get built right in the middle of the city without anyone bothering about
it or how entire castles can just appear where there were none the day
before. It explains why the U.S. military and every law enforcement
agency from the FBI on down seems tragically inept or blind to what
would otherwise be national news... all because that's the way Buffy
wanted it to be in her mind... so that's the way it was.
Michael Ikeda
news:12emm8f...@corp.supernews.com:
> Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
>> review threads.
>
>>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Six, Episode 16: "Normal Again"
>> (or "Slayer, interrupted")
>> Writer: Diego Gutierrez
>> Director: Rick Rosenthal
>
> .
>
> I think the bit about Buffy's previous trip to a mental
> institution was a definite continuity error, and one that was
> totally unnecessary for the episode to work.
I don't see it as a continuity error, just added background. Added
background which actually helps explain some things in Seasons 1-2.
In particular, why Buffy was so reluctant to even attempt to explain
to Joyce what was really going on.
(OBS points out elsewhere that the stay in the institution in the
real Buffyverse helps explain why the demon's influence chose that
particular fantasy to latch onto. And Stephen Tempest suggested that
the doctors in the real Buffyverse probably told Buffy's parents that
Buffy wasn't insane, just someone with a vivid imagination.)
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
jil...@hotmail.com
Sam wrote:
> jil...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > Aside from the comics being in no way acceptable to me as canon...
>
> What, not even the ones written by Whedon? There are story elements
> which originated in FRAY and actually later showed up in the series,
> after all -- I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that FRAY, if nothing else,
> is canon.
>
> And then there's the small fact that Joss has announced that they're
> doing Buffy: Season 8 as a comic series.
>
> --Sam
Fray may be considered different because of Joss. But I hate to remind
you that of course story elements in the series will appear in the
comics and sometimes vice-versa. Well, not vice-versa any more. No
series. Oh, I hope the comic Season 8 is good! I hope the art is and
the promise of the one illustration I've seen is fullfilled.
As a secondary point, Fray is set in the far future. And, as we've
seen in both Buffy and Angel, the future is not set in stone.
vague disclaimer
Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> BUFFY: I could wrestle naked in grease for a living and still be cleaner
> than after a shift at the Doublemeat.
>
> WILLOW: Plus, I'd visit you at work every single day.
>
> BUFFY: (smiles) So, what'you doing?
*Abandons work for the week*
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Memo to Dawn: Even if this were all about Buffy wanting a World
> Without The Shrimp (note that it's not), I assure you she would not
> be alone in this wish. Oh, and also? Shut up.
Dawn getting her mouth taped is one of S6's Fan Favorite moments.
There were cheers all over the internets.
I'm partial to the frying-pan-to-the-face moment too. Never not
funny, despite its being in a genuinely creepy scene.
Agree with the "excellent," although the retcon bothers me. It's a bad
retcon if it requires hand-waving and fast-talking to make it work. I
usually try to forget about it.
-- Mike Zeares
vague disclaimer
"Mike Zeares" <mze...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I
> usually try to forget about it.
Look, will you just stop being so damned sensible? At this rate you will
ruin the interweb's reputation.
One Bit Shy
news:btr1702-BE71D1...@news.giganews.com...
LOL. OK. You got me.
Ian Galbraith
[snip]
> "The second thing I hate about Normal Again is the revelation that
> Buffy
> tried to tell her parents about being the Slayer before she ever came
> to Sunnydale. She was sent to a clinic for a few weeks before she wised
> up and decided to stop claiming she was a vampire killer.
> Do you realize how badly that fucks up the canon? Do you realize how
> utterly clueless this makes Joyce look? It's bad enough how clueless
> she was beforehand, but to realize that Buffy actually told her about
> vampires and that she FORGOT about having her daughter in intensive
> psychiatric care for several weeks is just mind blowing. You're telling
> me that throughout the entire first two seasons, all the wacky stuff
> that Joyce sees doesn't make anything click in her mind? Even if she
> wasn't going to realize that vampires were actually real, wouldn't she
> be severely worried that Buffy's behavior was a symptom of her mental
> problems?
Boy that is one seriously stupid rant. The clinic issue is merely
stretching the continuity a bit, thats all. You and this guy are going
off the deep end about what is a minor issue.
There any number of fanwanky explanations that explain it away rather
than going off the deep end with dire declarations. OBS just gave a great
explanation for why they did it, an explanations that more makes up for
the minor stretching of continuity.
It doesn't destroy Joyce's character, we know what sort of mother she was
because we saw it. Whereas we didn't see anything of what happened around
the time of Buffy going to a clinic, who knows what happened? Stephen
Tempest's explanation is perfectly reasonable.
[snip]
--
You can't stop the signal
Ian Galbraith
[snip]
> It does nothing to make institutional Buffy more real, but that's not its
> purpose. What it does is give Sunnydale Buffy reason to think that it could
> be real. It's a device for Buffy herself - not us, the audience. Without
> that kind of foundation to think that she could be making Sunnydale up,
> institutional Buffy would seem preposterous to her. She already has the
> Sunnydale explanation for her hallucination of the mental ward - the demon
> that stabbed her. And she already knows how Sunnydale magic likes to prey
> on people's fears. Without a reason to think the mental ward is possible,
> the Sunnydale explanation would win out hands down.
> It also establishes a little internal story continuity. Why would the
> demon's magic generate that particular hallucination? As a random choice,
> it's kind of weird, and awfully convenient - unless institutional Buffy is
> real. That would explain it and act as evidence that Sunnydale is fake.
> But by giving Buffy that piece of personal history, it then gives the magic
> something within Buffy to latch upon, to prey upon in the Sunnydale magic
> way. Which makes it more possible for Sunnydale to be real.
> Curious effect. On the one hand it helps Buffy believe that the mental ward
> is real. On the other hand it actually solidifies the believability of
> Sunnydale. Clever little device.
Thats an excellent explanation. A little bit of continuity stretching is
worth it to achieve that.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > That concern explained above makes sense in retrospect after having
> > seen the end, which doesn't remove the ambiguity. Buffy has come
> > home, and is no longer affected, yet the last image we see is of the
> > other world going on without her. Does it have an independent
> > existence, like a parallel universe?
>
> I don't think so... my take is that it still exists because Buffy
> hasn't had the anti-dote yet.
That seems to be the common opinion. And it'd make sense, too, if we
assume this is in real-time. But if there were a way to make this
conclusive rather than a "take," NA wouldn't be NA.
> This episode is pivotal - crucial - to Buffy's development in S6.
> People focus on the Alt!Buffy and ask if maybe this is 'The Real
> Buffy' and the show is just all the lunatic imaginations of a sick
> girl. This misses the point. As does the talk about the ret-con. My
> take is, that this is the Buffy we never see - the Buffy _underneath_
> everything else.
I don't think that paying attention to these questions is missing any
point, since they're equally interesting. The stuff below (I've left
some of it in) is one explanation for the role of the institution in
the character's path. It's a good one, but it's not the only one.
> In S6 she has wanted (_needed_) *someone* to make it better. But Giles
> left, and Spike was unable to do what she hoped, and there was no one
> who could fix everything _for_ her. So she's been stuck in the same
> spot - until this episode, when she finally makes a choice. But notice
> - first she makes the wrong choice. Like in WOTW when she kept
> smothering her sister - only this time reversed: Attacking her friends,
> even Dawn, in real life. Tries to *eradicate* everything that is hard
> to deal with, rather than just ignore it as she has done all season.
> She doesn't lose completely, but it's a battle - and she's
> battling for her very self. The self where she has tried to hold onto
> the things she lost (literally and metaphorically) when she grew up -
> her parents. Her right to be the child and be looked after. But when
> everything looks darkest, we get this beautiful speech from Joyce ("I
> just wish my mom was here..."):
>
> JOYCE: "Buffy? Buffy! Buffy, fight it. You're too good to give in, you
> can beat this thing. Be strong, baby, ok? I know you're afraid. I know
> the world feels like a hard place sometimes, but you've got people who
> love you. Your dad and I, we have all the faith in the world in you.
> We'll always be with you. You've got ... a world of strength in your
> heart. I know you do. You just have to find it again. Believe in
> yourself."
>
> And she does. She finally takes a step forward and leaves the old her
> behind, choosing to live. She takes responsibility for herself again.
> Takes control. Grows up. And leaves Alt!Buffy, who's now nothing more
> than an empty shell.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
I'd generally agree with that, although I do wish the continuity were
tighter (it's easy to fanwank away, but it'd be nice if no fanwanking
were required). I don't see it as an important enough issue to drag
the show down much, esepcially given that it adds something. But I'm
admittedly biased by thinking that Joyce didn't really have enough
consistency in her character, particularly in S1/2, for there to be
anything to sabotage. Even afterwards, I don't think the show ever
knew quite what to do with her.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> It's nice to see that Dawn and Spike have so much in common now. They're
> both concerned for Buffy, but their reactions are both very ... well,
> rhymes with "blelf-centered." As soon as she learns that she iss not in
> Buffy's alternate reality, Dawn homes in on that one fact and forgets
> everything else. She also leaps to the worst possible interpretation,
> that in her hallucinations Buffy is *escaping* from Dawn rather than, say,
> being dragged away from Dawn. This part is Dawn assuming her most
> personal fears are coming true, and then blaming Buffy as if this
> assumption was proven fact. As for Spike and his theory that Buffy's
> addicted to misery, as he expounds it, it all revolves around her
> relationship with *him*. "You're addicted to the misery. It's why you
> won't tell your pals about us. Might actually have to be happy if you did.
> They'd either understand and help you, God forbid, or drive you out, where
> you can finally be at peace, in the dark. With me. Either way, you'd be
> better off for it, but you're too twisted for that." Buffy's troubles in
> life go way beyond her relationship with him (there's that ripped out of
> heaven bit, for instance), but Spike's too obsessed with her to talk
> about the non-Spike parts of her life.
That seems to make the most sense thinking about it straightforwardly.
I'm still a little confused by the obsession with the idea that the
institution is her ideal reality - is it only those two who suggest it?
If this were a story like the movie version of _A Beautiful Mind_,
we'd be talking about her strength in giving up the figments of herself
that she loves so much in favor of starting to take care of herself. I
don't see any surrendering or avoidence coming with either choice.
> So Buffy believes the hallucination, tries to kill her friends, then
> decides Sunnydale is real and goes "back" to save them. There are several
> possible interpretations. One is that Buffy realized the mental
> institution was a demonic hallucination because it was a little too
> suspiciously eager for her to kill her friends. However, SMG doesn't seem
> to play it that way; it looks like she's making a choice, rather than
> suddenly realizing a truth. Another possibility is that she *felt* that
> Sunnydale was real because of the strength of her emotional reaction as
> she watched Dawn, Willow and Xander about to be killed. IMO this is the
> interpretation that fits the episode best. But another possibility is
> that Buffy had no idea which universe was real, and chose Sunnydale
> because that's the one she *wanted* to live in. I don't think that fits
> what we see on the screen as well as the second possibility, but it's the
> most *interesting* one.
Why can't it be a little of each? I can't quite accept "felt that
Sunnydale" was real because I don't see her ever being sure of whaty's
real. Like you say, it's a choice, not a realization. Her friends,
the emotions she feels upon seeing them in danger, and her life in
which she knows these people are something that's important enough to
Buffy that she knows that in the end this is where she wants to be.
Maybe she has a hunch that those feelings can't be fake, but in the
end, she has to make a choice knowing she'll never be certain of the
truth.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
vague disclaimer wrote:
> In article <1156292505....@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com>,
> "Mike Zeares" <mze...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > I
> > usually try to forget about it.
>
> Look, will you just stop being so damned sensible? At this rate you will
> ruin the interweb's reputation.
Through the magic of Google Groups, one can see that he put forth at
least a token effort to ocassionally be loud and irrational back in the
day. So I think Mike has earned the right to be reasonable.
-AOQ
One Bit Shy
news:1156304663....@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
I'm not convinced that fanwanking is really necessary. The information
provided is so sketchy that you have to assume a lot just to generate the
complaint. In other words, to me, the complaint seems to require
fanwanking.
It seems easier and sufficient to just take it as offered.
But I agree with you that the depiction of early Joyce was kind of skittish.
She was whatever kind of mom they wanted for the episode at hand.
OBS
Arbitrar Of Quality
vague disclaimer wrote:
> It causes many a needs-clubbing to go off at the same deep end, almost
> as if, instead of saying "we will fight them on the beaches", Winston
> had said "Just kidding, letting the little fella in" (can't be arsed to
> tippy-toe around Godwin). I see one of the Nodding Dogs has tipped up
> already. The others can't be far behind. They usually whine in packs.
Well, maybe that's how they do things in *Britain*... they've got that
Royal Family and all kinds of
problems... but here in America, we post in English.
-AOQ
Rowan Hawthorn
You haven't read some of our resident trolls' posts, have you?
vague disclaimer
No. You post in American.
As the old memo to Microsoft said: There is no such thing as
International English.
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> Through the magic of Google Groups, one can see that he put forth at
> least a token effort to ocassionally be loud and irrational back in the
> day. So I think Mike has earned the right to be reasonable.
I was on occasion a complete bastard back then. I usually try to
forget about that too.
-- Mike Zeares
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> That seems to make the most sense thinking about it straightforwardly.
> I'm still a little confused by the obsession with the idea that the
> institution is her ideal reality - is it only those two who suggest it?
As far as I can remember, neither Willow nor Xander ever mention it. It's
probably not a coincidence that neither of them is as desperate for
Buffy's attention as Dawn and Spike are.
>> So Buffy believes the hallucination, tries to kill her friends, then
>> decides Sunnydale is real and goes "back" to save them. There are several
>> possible interpretations. One is that Buffy realized the mental
>> institution was a demonic hallucination because it was a little too
>> suspiciously eager for her to kill her friends. However, SMG doesn't seem
>> to play it that way; it looks like she's making a choice, rather than
>> suddenly realizing a truth. Another possibility is that she *felt* that
>> Sunnydale was real because of the strength of her emotional reaction as
>> she watched Dawn, Willow and Xander about to be killed. IMO this is the
>> interpretation that fits the episode best. But another possibility is
>> that Buffy had no idea which universe was real, and chose Sunnydale
>> because that's the one she *wanted* to live in. I don't think that fits
>> what we see on the screen as well as the second possibility, but it's the
>> most *interesting* one.
>
> Why can't it be a little of each? I can't quite accept "felt that
> Sunnydale" was real because I don't see her ever being sure of whaty's
> real. Like you say, it's a choice, not a realization. Her friends,
> the emotions she feels upon seeing them in danger, and her life in
> which she knows these people are something that's important enough to
> Buffy that she knows that in the end this is where she wants to be.
> Maybe she has a hunch that those feelings can't be fake, but in the
> end, she has to make a choice knowing she'll never be certain of the
> truth.
That works for me. There's no reason the two possibilities can't be
combined. I guess I didn't think of that in my last post because I was
focused on what seemed like a neat dichotomy: Did Buffy choose the world
she thought was real? Or did she choose the one she *wanted* to be real?
peachy ashie passion
And since Buffy clearly labels it with the normal magic Forgetyitits
that is most certainly canon, I don't get the problem.
peachy ashie passion
We can't be having with that!
The thing about rationality is, if you let even a little bit slip in,
soon enough it's taking over your entire mindset.
It grows like a weed, and if you look at the world through a haze of
sensibleness, well...
Our way of life as we know it is doomed!
Espen Schjønberg
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 16: "Normal Again"
> (or "Slayer, interrupted")
> Writer: Diego Gutierrez
> Director: Rick Rosenthal
>
> NA is obviously another one of those shows that's supposed to get one
> pondering.
To me, Normal Again is a show written by people who doesn't even like
science-fiction or fantasy. To me, this show is mocking me- like so many
people do - for being able to believe the thing I watch or read for just
a moment.
This show is, all the time, "how can you be so silly? Believing in a
girl with superpowers? This is not believable at all.".
To me, this show is written by the enemies of fantasy, to disturb my
pleasure of the genre.
> That concern explained above makes sense in retrospect after having
> seen the end, which doesn't remove the ambiguity. Buffy has come
> home, and is no longer affected, yet the last image we see is of the
> other world going on without her. Does it have an independent
> existence, like a parallel universe? Or is there a chance that this is
> the real deal - that somewhere in L.A., Buffy Summers is forever
> catatonic and dreaming of being a hero - and everything else is
> delusion? Some people might not enjoy raising a question like that,
> but I find it a fundamentally disturbing final image, and a very
> appropriate way to close a dense and thought-provoking episode.
Appropriate? So not.
To me, this was just a remainder: "Remember, sucker, this is not real.
You must be a stupid idiot watching this show".
It was plainly offending.
Does this mean I give away my low self-esteem? Possibly. But that is how
I interpreted it. So, that was what I needed? Huh.
A show like this does not need the characters repeating how unbelievable
the shows premises are.
Also, I find the solution not interesting. How _does_ Buffy realize this
is the "real world" in NA? It looks like she just realize what is real,
and what is not. That is not interesting. If she had been thinking,
like, "if I am in an institution and wrongly behaves as if a slayer,
that ruins my life, but if I am a slayer and wrongly believes I am in an
institution that ruins the world, so the consequence of being in error
is so my graver if I believe I am in an institution, ergo, I act as if I
am a slayer,", this would have been one of the best sacrifice-episodes,
ever. But I cannot see this is her reasoning.
Other stuff: I don't have a problem with the prior lack of Buffy going
to an asylum. Obviously, cause Joyces behaviour would make no sense
otherwise, she only did that in the Dawnverse, so, that is made-up
memories. Buffys singing of "you have no idea how it is to be a
vampire-slayer" in The Wish happened in front of Dawn in the Dawnverse.
> AOQ rating: Excellent
It had potential, but did not use it. It is, after all, a standard
fantasy-plot. To give it a good grade, it would have needed to be
something excelling, or something. So, my grade is weak.
--
Espen
vague disclaimer
Espen Schjønberg <ess...@excite.com> wrote:
> To me, this was just a remainder: "Remember, sucker, this is not real.
> You must be a stupid idiot watching this show".
>
> It was plainly offending.
But that you believe this says much, much more about you than it does
about the writers.
> Also, I find the solution not interesting. How _does_ Buffy realize this
> is the "real world" in NA? It looks like she just realize what is real,
> and what is not.
We were shown, quite clearly on-screen what led Buffy to her conclusion.
Now, Espen: Describe in single words only the good things that come into
your mind about... your mother.
Espen Schjønberg
> In article <ecmbqf$uok$1...@readme.uio.no>,
> [this poster]:
>
>
>>To me, this was just a remainder: "Remember, sucker, this is not real.
>>You must be a stupid idiot watching this show".
>>
>>It was plainly offending.
>
>
> But that you believe this says much, much more about you than it does
> about the writers.
It does? Perhaps it tells about the weaker position of fantasy in some
cultures. The show was about how not realistic Buffy was. To me, that
meta-joke was not worth a show.
>>Also, I find the solution not interesting. How _does_ Buffy realize this
>>is the "real world" in NA? It looks like she just realize what is real,
>>and what is not.
>
>
> We were shown, quite clearly on-screen what led Buffy to her conclusion.
Her mother, asking her to believe in herself, is not what is making
Buffy getting to this conclusion. I don't see how this would solve
anything.
> Now, Espen: Describe in single words only the good things that come into
> your mind about... your mother.
Good movie.
--
Espen
John Briggs
> On 25.08.2006 11:07, vague disclaimer wrote:
>> In article <ecmbqf$uok$1...@readme.uio.no>,
>> [this poster]:
>>
>>> To me, this was just a remainder: "Remember, sucker, this is not
>>> real. You must be a stupid idiot watching this show".
>>>
>>> It was plainly offending.
>>
>> But that you believe this says much, much more about you than it does
>> about the writers.
>
> It does? Perhaps it tells about the weaker position of fantasy in some
> cultures. The show was about how not realistic Buffy was. To me, that
> meta-joke was not worth a show.
OK, so what do make of the following, from "Antony and Cleopatra"? Why
does Shakespeare draw attention to the fact that his women were played by
boys? And remind his audience that they are watching a play? (That's a
serious question, BTW.)
Cleopatra: Nay, 'tis most certain, Iras: saucy lictors
Will catch at us, like strumpets; and scald rhymers
Ballad us out o' tune: the quick comedians
Extemporally will stage us, and present
Our Alexandrian revels; Antony
Shall be brought drunken forth, and I shall see
Some squeaking Cleopatra boy my greatness
I' the posture of a whore.
And if you say that's not a "whole show" about a meta-joke, there are two
whole plays ("As You Like It" and "Twelfth Night") about just that
meta-joke.
--
John Briggs
jil...@hotmail.com
Espen Schjønberg wrote:
> Other stuff: I don't have a problem with the prior lack of Buffy going
> to an asylum. Obviously, cause Joyces behaviour would make no sense
> otherwise, she only did that in the Dawnverse, so, that is made-up
> memories. Buffys singing of "you have no idea how it is to be a
> vampire-slayer" in The Wish happened in front of Dawn in the Dawnverse.
I didn't have the problems you have with it. Partly, I guess, because
I never read those stupid comics.
I fanwanked an answer that feels powerfully right to me. Mentioned it
earlier, but got no play. This is my fanwank:
Buffy tried to explain to her parents about vampires. Her father got
her committed over her mother's uncertainties. Joyce felt Buffy was
acting out because of the tension in the house and her problems with
Hank. When the doctors said Buffy was all right, Joyce decided it was
better to divorce than to keep doing this to her daughter. Hank
leaves, Buffy at some level thinks it was because of her when really
it's because of her that the parents stayed together even that long.
Elisi
Sounds good to me, and very similar to OBS's take. It's also important
to remember that Buffy hadn't been trained or prepared *at all* until
she was called. We see in the flashbacks that she's thrown in at the
deep end, probably with little or no explanations except "There are
vampires. You're a Slayer. Kill them." I would be very surprised if she
was at all coherent when telling her parents - even in 'Becoming' her
attempt confused Joyce more than it illuminated.
vague disclaimer
Espen Schjønberg <ess...@excite.com> wrote:
> On 25.08.2006 11:07, vague disclaimer wrote:
> > In article <ecmbqf$uok$1...@readme.uio.no>,
> > [this poster]:
> >
> >
> >>To me, this was just a remainder: "Remember, sucker, this is not real.
> >>You must be a stupid idiot watching this show".
> >>
> >>It was plainly offending.
> >
> >
> > But that you believe this says much, much more about you than it does
> > about the writers.
>
> It does? Perhaps it tells about the weaker position of fantasy in some
> cultures. The show was about how not realistic Buffy was. To me, that
> meta-joke was not worth a show.
Weaker? So say - well, pretty well all of - Kurt Vonnegut's major
works, or Phiip K Dick's, represent the weak state of SF&F? Quite a
strong tradition of exploring the nature of truth in American SF&F -
which is the culture from which Buffy comes.
> >>Also, I find the solution not interesting. How _does_ Buffy realize this
> >>is the "real world" in NA? It looks like she just realize what is real,
> >>and what is not.
> >
> >
> > We were shown, quite clearly on-screen what led Buffy to her conclusion.
>
> Her mother, asking her to believe in herself, is not what is making
> Buffy getting to this conclusion. I don't see how this would solve
> anything.
Then pay attention:
JOYCE: "Buffy, Buffy, fight it. You're too good to give in. You can beat
this thing. Be strong, baby, okay? I know you're afraid, I know the
world feels like a hard place sometimes, but you've got people who love
you. Your dad and I we have all the faith in the world in you. We'll
always be with you. You've got a world of strength in your heart, I know
you do. You just have to find it again. Believe in yourself. "
This is a product of a poison-induced paranoid delusion and, yet Buffy
still cannot 'invent' a mother who is anything other than a tower of
strength.
The first thing she says is "you're good, to good to give in". (Good
people don't kill their friends, you see? (and good doctors don't ask
them to))
Then there is pure encouragement, an explicit statement of empathy (the
statement that she is not alone).
Then there is the statement of belief (of Joyce in Buffy).
Then there is the promise to always be there (and that death shall have
no dominion).
And then the call to self belief.
You really should try seeing things from the point of view of the
character sometimes.
>
> > Now, Espen: Describe in single words only the good things that come into
> > your mind about... your mother.
>
> Good movie.
Let me tell you about my mother...
Espen Schjønberg
> In article <ecmgmd$19u$1...@readme.uio.no>,
> Espen Schjønberg <ess...@excite.com> wrote:
>
>
>>On 25.08.2006 11:07, vague disclaimer wrote:
>>
>>>In article <ecmbqf$uok$1...@readme.uio.no>,
>>> [this poster]:
[I snip the discussion of how the episode is not good. I don't get
through anyway.]
>>>>Also, I find the solution not interesting. How _does_ Buffy realize this
>>>>is the "real world" in NA? It looks like she just realize what is real,
>>>>and what is not.
>>>
>>>
>>>We were shown, quite clearly on-screen what led Buffy to her conclusion.
>>
>>Her mother, asking her to believe in herself, is not what is making
>>Buffy getting to this conclusion. I don't see how this would solve
>>anything.
>
>
> Then pay attention:
[snip repeating of invalid argumentation]
This does not improve your arguments.
As they are seriously lacking, that is of course a rather sad thing...
> You really should try seeing things from the point of view of the
> character sometimes.
Given Buffys problem in NA, it is enormously difficult to actually find
out what is the truth, and what is not.
And that should be from the characters point of view.
She cannot decide what is the truth based on anything anyone is telling
her. As I said: the only way the solution could have been excellent, is
if she found the solution "outside the box".
--
Espen
vague disclaimer
Espen Schjønberg <ess...@excite.com> wrote:
> On 25.08.2006 20:10, vague disclaimer wrote:
> > In article <ecmgmd$19u$1...@readme.uio.no>,
> > Espen Schjønberg <ess...@excite.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>On 25.08.2006 11:07, vague disclaimer wrote:
> >>
> >>>In article <ecmbqf$uok$1...@readme.uio.no>,
> >>> [this poster]:
>
> [I snip the discussion of how the episode is not good. I don't get
> through anyway.]
So your entire reasoning consists of "LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING?
> >>>>Also, I find the solution not interesting. How _does_ Buffy realize this
> >>>>is the "real world" in NA? It looks like she just realize what is real,
> >>>>and what is not.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>We were shown, quite clearly on-screen what led Buffy to her conclusion.
> >>
> >>Her mother, asking her to believe in herself, is not what is making
> >>Buffy getting to this conclusion. I don't see how this would solve
> >>anything.
> >
> >
> > Then pay attention:
>
> [snip repeating of invalid argumentation]
>
> This does not improve your arguments.
How so? Be specific or..well, frankly...stop trolling.
> As they are seriously lacking, that is of course a rather sad thing...
Your objection was that there was no basis for Buffy's conclusions.
You were shown the basis.
Do you have a rebuttal or just stampy feet?
> > You really should try seeing things from the point of view of the
> > character sometimes.
>
> Given Buffys problem in NA, it is enormously difficult to actually find
> out what is the truth, and what is not.
That was rather the point of the episode. Gee, I know. Let's only have
really easy problems in future.
> And that should be from the characters point of view.
>
> She cannot decide what is the truth based on anything anyone is telling
> her.
Apart from where we were shown, clearly, on screen, how she came to the
conclusion? I realise English isn't your first language (that was
Fortran, right?) but it really wasn't subtle.
> As I said: the only way the solution could have been excellent, is
> if she found the solution "outside the box".
The episode was about her state of mind, not her problem solving
abilities.
Mel
Espen Schjønberg wrote:
The point isn't that Buffy decides which reality is real and which is
false. The point is Buffy's choice. First she didn't want to be alive
(Bargaining) then she progressed to not wanting to die (Gone) and now
she is not just accepting her life, but choosing it, wanting it, even if
it is unreal. What will her next recovery step be?
Mel
Ian Galbraith
[snip]
> To me, Normal Again is a show written by people who doesn't even like
> science-fiction or fantasy.
Philip K Dick doesn't like SF? Thats a new one. It was essentially a
Dickian story.
> To me, this show is mocking me- like so many
> people do - for being able to believe the thing I watch or read for just
> a moment.
You need to get over yourself. If the episode had been comedic then your
reaction might be more understandable but its not mocking in any way.
[snip]
--
You Can't Stop The Signal
George W Harris
<exquisi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
: The thing about rationality is, if you let even a little bit slip in,
:soon enough it's taking over your entire mindset.
"Isn't sanity just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean,
all you get is that one trick, rational thinking, but when
you're good and crazy, well, the sky's the limit!"
-The Tick
--
e^(i*pi)+1=0
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.
Lydia Nickerson
>"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1156224127....@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>I think Spike's theory says more about himself than it does about Buffy.
Possibly, Buffy was projecting during "Smashed." "You're in love with
pain. Admit it. (Spike gets up) You like me ... because you enjoy
getting beat down. "
Buffy's been looking for pain because it's the only thing she can feel.
Being a martyr not only hurts, but it preserves her distance from her
friends. I think Spike has a point. Spike likes being hurt, that's no
revelation. (See above, and his response: "Hello! Vampire! I'm
supposed to be treading on the dark side."
>Even thought the words between he and Buffy at the wedding were
>pretty gentle, he still was trying to make her jealous with that date. What
He was planning on hurting her as much as possible, but doesn't have the
stomach for it, in the end.
>Spike's attitude does probably contribute to Buffy falling further into the
>mental ward disconnect, but I don't think it's all that particular to what
>he said.
I think not so much what he said but just that he's there, she still has
feelings for him, and that's a problem she doesn't have if she's insane.
>> One of the things that I was finding a bit disappointing on first
>> viewing is that there's not a part in which the hero steps back and
>> logics apart the situation before choosing to go home.
She's never in a position where she can. In the mental institution,
she's on drugs and they're playing her using her emotions. Really, her
emotional response to her father being a decent person and her mother
being alive are the things that anchor her to that reality. In the
Sunnydale reality, she's really, really screwed up on the poison, and
mostly weird and distant. She's not in a logical frame of mind, either.
In the end, she makes the choice that makes sense in both universes:
she takes strength from her mother's unquestioning love, and believes in
herself.
>Some find it so disturbing that they describe it as a betrayal of the whole
>series concept. (Yes, I think that's over the top. But attachments to this
>show are often very emotional. This is not a reaction I'd criticize
>seriously. If anything, I think it acts as a testiment to the power of the
>episode.)
>Myself, I just take it as the classsic inconclusive horror story ending.
>For, you know, horror never really ends. It's always lurking in the next
>shadow.
I think that this is one of the centers of writing and reading fiction.
Normally, we suspend our disbelief in order to enjoy the story. The
ending plays with that, a little. But the other question, what's
really real, is one that plays out in real life. All our assumptions
about reality depend upon relying on our senses. What if our senses are
unreliable? We know this can happen: schizophrenia, drugs, isolation
chambers, other causes we don't understand. Not everyone's brain
processes things the same way. So there's always a question, at least
in my mind, about what's really real. It's not a particularly nagging
question, like most people I tabled the question of solipsism at about
the age of 20. My reality seems perfectly suitable, close enough for
government work. I have no reason to question it. But I can't
absolutely prove it, either. It's like trying to prove the
existence of god.
--
----
Lydia Nickerson ly...@demesne.com ly...@dd-b.net
Lydia Nickerson
>Um, no. When Buffy's talking to Willow, she reveals that she told her
>parents about being the Slayer and got sent to a clinic for a few weeks
>until she decided to stop claiming she'd been killing vampires. That
>happened in the Buffyverse, not the "Normal Again" asylumverse.
Dropping Dawn into the world changes a lot of things, and there are
inconsistencies that can't be resolved. Like Dawn talking about Buffy
chasing her around with chopsticks in her mouth to look like a vampire.
There's a pretty good implication there that the family knew that Buffy
was a Slayer. It suggests that the Summers family moved to Sunnydale
earlier than they actually did. Xander talks about watching Dawn grow
up. I think that Hank is also changed from a kind of inattentive dad
into a major loser because of the Dawnage of the universe. I wonder if
Buffy ever burnt her high school down in the Dawn universe, as I think
they were living in Sunnydale too early for that to have happened in LA.
I still don't see a way for Joyce to have put her daughter in an
institution for talking about vampires and the like, and then
forgetting, even though the universe is now Dawnified. Nor is Sunnydale
forgetitis that strong, I don't think. Perhaps Buffy is speaking out of
her delusion (reality) when she tells Willow that she was
institutionalized.
I favor sloppy consistency, in this case, though.
>Either that, or the whole show is just Buffy's delusion. I guess we
>were just wasting our time in caring what happened to these characters,
>eh?
Just because they're fictional? :-) If that were the case, then this
NG wouldn't exist -- or at least, you wouldn't hang out here.
Sorry, couldn't resist. I know exactly what you mean. It's the "and
then the little boy woke up" cheat, a really repulsive trope.
One Bit Shy
news:44f2629c$0$501$815e...@news.qwest.net...
> "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> writes:
>
>>"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:1156224127....@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
>>I think Spike's theory says more about himself than it does about Buffy.
>
> Possibly, Buffy was projecting during "Smashed." "You're in love with
> pain. Admit it. (Spike gets up) You like me ... because you enjoy
> getting beat down. "
>
> Buffy's been looking for pain because it's the only thing she can feel.
> Being a martyr not only hurts, but it preserves her distance from her
> friends. I think Spike has a point. Spike likes being hurt, that's no
> revelation. (See above, and his response: "Hello! Vampire! I'm
> supposed to be treading on the dark side."
Yes, that's true. But I think she's mostly past that now - existing more as
a recent guilty memory than an ongoing compulsion. And in the larger sense
of Buffy throughout her Slayer career - or as long as Spike's known her - I
don't think she was ever really in love with pain. The weirdness of her
experiences may have warped her sensibilities some to believe that pain was
necessary for some things - maybe even love. But not quite as Spike meant
it. Not so central. Not the thing itself she wanted.
I think that here Spike is projecting a little himself. And still thinking
of Buffy the way she was at the start of their physical relationship when
she really was reaching for pain - not willing to admit that she's moved
past that. But mostly I think he's just lashing out this scene because he's
having trouble coping with rejection.
OBS
Lydia Nickerson
>To me, Normal Again is a show written by people who doesn't even like
>science-fiction or fantasy. To me, this show is mocking me- like so many
>people do - for being able to believe the thing I watch or read for just
>a moment.
That seems pretty unlikely, given the show's writers and creators.
>Also, I find the solution not interesting. How _does_ Buffy realize this
>is the "real world" in NA? It looks like she just realize what is real,
>and what is not. That is not interesting. If she had been thinking,
>like, "if I am in an institution and wrongly behaves as if a slayer,
>that ruins my life, but if I am a slayer and wrongly believes I am in an
>institution that ruins the world, so the consequence of being in error
>is so my graver if I believe I am in an institution, ergo, I act as if I
>am a slayer,", this would have been one of the best sacrifice-episodes,
>ever. But I cannot see this is her reasoning.
Interesting. I think that that solution would be pretty banal and
self-serving. It seems to me that Buffy did what her mother told her to
do. She decided to believe in herself. She made her decision with her
heart, and not as a convenience or a calculation. Up until this
episode, Buffy hasn't wanted to be Buffy, hell, she hasn't even wanted
to be alive. But faced with the choice, she looked deep into her
herself and chose her inner truth. It is a sacrifice episode: she loses
Joyce as a result of her choice, and it's clear that hurts a lot.
Lydia Nickerson
>She cannot decide what is the truth based on anything anyone is telling
>her. As I said: the only way the solution could have been excellent, is
>if she found the solution "outside the box".
Isn't that the point? And isn't she in the same position that we all
are in? What is truth, asked Pilot, and washed his hands. Buffy chose
by looking inside and finding her true self. This isn't a problem that
has an "outside of the box" solution. It's one of those fundamental
problems that we all face. "Who am I, really?"
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Yes, that's true. But I think she's mostly past that now - existing more as
> a recent guilty memory than an ongoing compulsion.
Not really about "Normal Again," or about this post in particular, but
I have to question the idea that you keep bringing up that Buffy has
moved on past Spike, that things are clearly over, I was surprised to
read everyone's comments in the "As You Were" discussions suggesting
that this was it, the B/S breakup. They've been non and off for so
long, it didn't feel like The Breakup any more than the thousands of
other times she's walked away from him. "Normal Again," other than the
lack of sex, shows no indication that they're not just in one of their
"off" periods. The dynamic could come from any mid-S6 episode before
AYW: Buffy tells Spike she wants nothing to do with him, then ends up
stitting with him a second later, and trying to hide their friendliness
once Xander arrives. Spike demands that she tell the others "about us"
- he clearly thinks they still have something going, and Buffy screwing
him is a major part of why she continues to have trouble accepting her
life in NA. So either the season itself or this interpretation of it
seems a little wobbly.
> And in the larger sense
> of Buffy throughout her Slayer career - or as long as Spike's known her - I
> don't think she was ever really in love with pain.
Yeah, I'm not seeing that.
-AOQ
Don Sample
Lydia Nickerson <lydy@AUTO> wrote:
> Dropping Dawn into the world changes a lot of things, and there are
> inconsistencies that can't be resolved. Like Dawn talking about Buffy
> chasing her around with chopsticks in her mouth to look like a vampire.
> There's a pretty good implication there that the family knew that Buffy
> was a Slayer.
No. It suggests that Buffy used to pretend to be a vampire. She's been
the Slayer since she was 15, and that behaviour sounds more like
something a 12 year old would do. It might be something that Buffy did
long before she learned that vampires were real.
> It suggests that the Summers family moved to Sunnydale
> earlier than they actually did.
In "Shadow" Dawn says that they came to Sunnydale just before her 10th
birthday (which doesn't really match up with established history, but is
close enough that Dawn might just be misremembering.)
> Xander talks about watching Dawn grow
> up.
He's known her for 4 years, since she was 10. He remembers watching her
do a lot of growing.
> I think that Hank is also changed from a kind of inattentive dad
> into a major loser because of the Dawnage of the universe.
I do blame the Monks for Hank suddenly deciding to head for Spain,
without leaving a forwarding address, or phone number. He did get back
in touch with Dawn after Buffy died though. After that, I suspect that
it was more Dawn and the others pushing him that kept him away, because
they were hiding that Buffy was dead from him.
> I wonder if
> Buffy ever burnt her high school down in the Dawn universe, as I think
> they were living in Sunnydale too early for that to have happened in LA.
If Dawn was telling the truth about her 10th birthday in "Shadow" then
the move to Sunnydale only happened a year earlier than in the non-Dawn
universe. It's much simpler just to assume that Dawn was mistaken when
she said that, though. We know that they still remember a lot of things
happening just the way we saw them: Buffy was still killed by the
Master; Angel still lost his soul; Buffy still ran away for the summer
after she sent Angel to hell; Faith still went evil; they still blew up
Sunnydale High at Graduation. For all of that to have still happened,
and yet to have Buffy arrive in Sunnydale a year earlier wouldn't make
sense.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Arbitrar Of Quality
> On 22.08.2006 07:22, Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > NA is obviously another one of those shows that's supposed to get one
> > pondering.
>
> To me, Normal Again is a show written by people who doesn't even like
> science-fiction or fantasy. To me, this show is mocking me- like so many
> people do - for being able to believe the thing I watch or read for just
> a moment.
>
> This show is, all the time, "how can you be so silly? Believing in a
> girl with superpowers? This is not believable at all.".
>
> To me, this show is written by the enemies of fantasy, to disturb my
> pleasure of the genre.
I'll have to chime in to he chorus of voices saying that this kind of
meta-drama is a widely used and respectable fantasy plot.
For me, part of the beauty of NA is that when it questions the reality
of the Buffyverse, the viewer's horror at the concept mirrors Buffy's.
It's not mockery or a "joke" - although pointing out the
"inconsistencies" of Sunnydale could easily be played as a joke, most
of the episode is as serious as cancer.
> Also, I find the solution not interesting. How _does_ Buffy realize this
> is the "real world" in NA? It looks like she just realize what is real,
> and what is not. That is not interesting. If she had been thinking,
> like, "if I am in an institution and wrongly behaves as if a slayer,
> that ruins my life, but if I am a slayer and wrongly believes I am in an
> institution that ruins the world, so the consequence of being in error
> is so my graver if I believe I am in an institution, ergo, I act as if I
> am a slayer,", this would have been one of the best sacrifice-episodes,
> ever. But I cannot see this is her reasoning.
As I was first watching it, I wanted her to logic her way through it
too, but after seeing the whole thing, her choice is all about emotion,
not reasoning. Both for Buffy and for the viewer, the "truth" can
never be completely certain, so she has to make a choice - a
life-affirming one.
-AOQ
Don Sample
Lydia Nickerson <lydy@AUTO> wrote:
> She decided to believe in herself. She made her decision with her
> heart, and not as a convenience or a calculation. Up until this
> episode, Buffy hasn't wanted to be Buffy, hell, she hasn't even wanted
> to be alive. But faced with the choice, she looked deep into her
> herself and chose her inner truth. It is a sacrifice episode: she loses
> Joyce as a result of her choice, and it's clear that hurts a lot.
She already decided that she wants to live, back in "Gone."
Rowan Hawthorn
> In article <44f269c0$0$501$815e...@news.qwest.net>,
> Lydia Nickerson <lydy@AUTO> wrote:
>
>
>> It suggests that the Summers family moved to Sunnydale
>> earlier than they actually did.
>
> In "Shadow" Dawn says that they came to Sunnydale just before her 10th
> birthday (which doesn't really match up with established history, but is
> close enough that Dawn might just be misremembering.)
>
>
>> Xander talks about watching Dawn grow
>> up.
>
> He's known her for 4 years, since she was 10. He remembers watching her
> do a lot of growing.
Hell, yeah, *we* watched Dawn (via MT) do a lot of growing in the 3
years we knew her...
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>
> > Yes, that's true. But I think she's mostly past that now - existing more as
> > a recent guilty memory than an ongoing compulsion.
>
> Not really about "Normal Again," or about this post in particular, but
> I have to question the idea that you keep bringing up that Buffy has
> moved on past Spike, that things are clearly over, I was surprised to
> read everyone's comments in the "As You Were" discussions suggesting
> that this was it, the B/S breakup. They've been non and off for so
> long, it didn't feel like The Breakup any more than the thousands of
> other times she's walked away from him. "Normal Again," other than the
> lack of sex, shows no indication that they're not just in one of their
> "off" periods. The dynamic could come from any mid-S6 episode before
> AYW: Buffy tells Spike she wants nothing to do with him, then ends up
> stitting with him a second later, and trying to hide their friendliness
> once Xander arrives. Spike demands that she tell the others "about us"
> - he clearly thinks they still have something going, and Buffy screwing
> him is a major part of why she continues to have trouble accepting her
> life in NA. So either the season itself or this interpretation of it
> seems a little wobbly.
I suppose that the actual final breakup part of the breakup happens in
"Seeing Red." At this point, Spike is still holding on to the idea that
this is just another round of "off again" in their relationship. It
doesn't become a permanent breakup until he tries to force his way back
into an "on again" phase before she's ready. If he had bided his time,
and waited, who knows what might have happened.
> > And in the larger sense
> > of Buffy throughout her Slayer career - or as long as Spike's known her - I
> > don't think she was ever really in love with pain.
>
> Yeah, I'm not seeing that.
The "You're in love with the pain" was Spike talking out his ass, trying
to drag her down to his level.
Arbitrar Of Quality
Don Sample wrote:
> In article <44f26edf$0$501$815e...@news.qwest.net>,
> Lydia Nickerson <lydy@AUTO> wrote:
>
> > She decided to believe in herself. She made her decision with her
> > heart, and not as a convenience or a calculation. Up until this
> > episode, Buffy hasn't wanted to be Buffy, hell, she hasn't even wanted
> > to be alive. But faced with the choice, she looked deep into her
> > herself and chose her inner truth. It is a sacrifice episode: she loses
> > Joyce as a result of her choice, and it's clear that hurts a lot.
>
> She already decided that she wants to live, back in "Gone."
Healing can be a gradual thing. She wants to avoid dying in "Gone,"
but she actively chooses life in Sunnydale in NA. And she's still not
all "better."
-AOQ
One Bit Shy
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>
>> Yes, that's true. But I think she's mostly past that now - existing more
>> as
>> a recent guilty memory than an ongoing compulsion.
>
> Not really about "Normal Again," or about this post in particular, but
> I have to question the idea that you keep bringing up that Buffy has
> moved on past Spike, that things are clearly over, I was surprised to
> read everyone's comments in the "As You Were" discussions suggesting
> that this was it, the B/S breakup. They've been non and off for so
> long, it didn't feel like The Breakup any more than the thousands of
> other times she's walked away from him. "Normal Again," other than the
> lack of sex, shows no indication that they're not just in one of their
> "off" periods. The dynamic could come from any mid-S6 episode before
> AYW: Buffy tells Spike she wants nothing to do with him, then ends up
> stitting with him a second later, and trying to hide their friendliness
> once Xander arrives. Spike demands that she tell the others "about us"
> - he clearly thinks they still have something going, and Buffy screwing
> him is a major part of why she continues to have trouble accepting her
> life in NA. So either the season itself or this interpretation of it
> seems a little wobbly.
Just for the record, anything I've said about the breakup is only in regards
to the immediate story line we've been following. Anything is possible with
new input in the future. So maybe it's permanent. Maybe it's not.
As for now, it's quite possible that my familiarity with the story betrays
me. But, honestly, it really did look to me like the As You Were break up,
followed up by the Hell's Bell's encounter signified something much more
enduring than the prior experiences. Moving past him would also only mean
the particular emotional dependency that led to the sex. I would think that
Spike has been too large a presence in her life by this point to simply push
him out of it. I would expect some affection and gratitude to endure.
As for right here, Buffy's whacked out by the demon juice and mental ward
delusions. The memory of what she did with Spike and why surely did
influence her not to drink the antidote. But her attitude prior to this did
seem changed to me - not aiming for the misery like she had been and Spike
accused her of. She was so engaged and even happy at the wedding.
OBS
vague disclaimer
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> I was surprised to
> read everyone's comments in the "As You Were" discussions suggesting
> that this was it, the B/S breakup.
Re-watch the closing few shots. They aren't what you might describe as
subtle, almost as if the writers and directors, and especially the
lighting crew, were trying to tell us something.
Stephen Tempest
>No. It suggests that Buffy used to pretend to be a vampire. She's been
>the Slayer since she was 15, and that behaviour sounds more like
>something a 12 year old would do. It might be something that Buffy did
>long before she learned that vampires were real.
"You don't dream much, do you, Mel? I dreamed. Always. Before my
earliest memories of the world there were the dreams. There was the
girl. She was different every time. But the same. A peasant, a
priestess...hundreds of girls from times we've forgotten, worlds we
couldn't picture. She was me. She wasn't me. I loved her. I killed
her." (from 'Fray')
It's quite likely that Buffy was dreaming about vampires long before
she ever knowingly met one, or actually became the Slayer.
Also, on a different note, it's not unheard of for an older person to
act immaturely (frex, putting chopsticks in your mouth to imitate
fangs) in order to amuse a small child...
>In "Shadow" Dawn says that they came to Sunnydale just before her 10th
>birthday (which doesn't really match up with established history, but is
>close enough that Dawn might just be misremembering.)
She says she's 14 in 'Real Me'. Let's assume that her birthday falls
in Episode 1 of each season, since she does first appear in 'Buffy
versus Dracula' - that's her actual 'birth'-day.
(And so she's only _just_ turned 14 in 'Real Me', which explains why
she's so indignant that her mother is 'forgetting' just how mature and
self-reliant she is in the following episode...).
So, she turned 13 in 'The Freshman'.
She turned 12 in 'Anne'.
She turned 11 in 'When She Was Bad'.
She turned 10 in 'Welcome to the Hellmouth'.
And so the Summers family arrived in Sunnydale shortly before her 10th
birthday, when she was nine.
Makes perfect sense. No need to find an extra year anywhere.
Stephen
George W Harris
<ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
:She says she's 14 in 'Real Me'. Let's assume that her birthday falls
:in Episode 1 of each season, since she does first appear in 'Buffy
:versus Dracula' - that's her actual 'birth'-day.
:
:(And so she's only _just_ turned 14 in 'Real Me', which explains why
:she's so indignant that her mother is 'forgetting' just how mature and
:self-reliant she is in the following episode...).
:
:So, she turned 13 in 'The Freshman'.
:She turned 12 in 'Anne'.
:She turned 11 in 'When She Was Bad'.
:She turned 10 in 'Welcome to the Hellmouth'.
Except "The Freshmen", "Anne" and "When She
Was Bad" were all at the beginning of the school year;
"Welcome to the Hellmouth" wasn't. It's fairly clear that
Buffy arrived at Sunnydale in the middle of the school year,
so Dawn would have been 10 for a few months.
A strong hint is that there was no Buffy birthday
episode in S1.
--
"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar." -Wash, 'Serenity'
Don Sample
Stephen Tempest <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Except Welcome to the Hellmouth takes place in January of 1997, not
August of of 1996, when you've got Dawn turning 10.
Dawn is still 14 when Buffy has her 20th birthday. Buffy is already 16
when they moved to Sunnydale, so Dawn would have been 10 when they
arrived in Sunnydale. Her first birthday in Sunnydale would have been
her 11th.
Horace LaBadie
The fact that she addressed him by his given human name, and then passed
out into the light should have been sufficient to seal the door on the
relationship in your mind.
HWL
Mel
Don Sample wrote:
> In article <44f26edf$0$501$815e...@news.qwest.net>,
> Lydia Nickerson <lydy@AUTO> wrote:
>
>
>>She decided to believe in herself. She made her decision with her
>>heart, and not as a convenience or a calculation. Up until this
>>episode, Buffy hasn't wanted to be Buffy, hell, she hasn't even wanted
>>to be alive. But faced with the choice, she looked deep into her
>>herself and chose her inner truth. It is a sacrifice episode: she loses
>>Joyce as a result of her choice, and it's clear that hurts a lot.
>
>
> She already decided that she wants to live, back in "Gone."
>
Not quite. She decided she didn't want to die. That isn't quite the same
thing.
Mel
Lydia Nickerson
>The "You're in love with the pain" was Spike talking out his ass, trying
>to drag her down to his level.
But it was Buffy who said that. Spike responded with, "Hello, vampire!
I'm supposed to tread on the dark side. What's your excuse?"