AOQ Review 7-8: "Sleeper"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Seven, Episode 8: "Sleeper"
(or "[insert sound of whistling _In The Hall Of The Mountain
King_]")
Writers: David Fury and Jane Espenson
Director: Alan J. Levi
It's impressive how much of act one is devoted to characters
recapping the events of the previous episode to each other and thinking
about them. The end-of-act-one fadeout made me wonder if anything had
in fact happened other than recapping the events of the previous
episode and thinking about them. Later parts up the action quotient
with lots of thrilling slow pans of people weaving through crowds for
extended lengths of time (does downtown Sunnydale often get so
packed?). I jest and mock a little, but it does strike me as a fairly
slow-moving episode except for the end, more so than it needs to be.
Early on Spike is induced to kill again by From Beneath You Guy taking
the form of Buffy, in one of the more intense moments of the episode.
"You know I want you to." Based on past evidence, "Lessons"
and "Selfless" in particular, appearing as her seems to be the most
effective way to keep Spike thoroughly confused, so one wonders why
most of FBYG's appearances this episode are as Spike. Its propaganda
doesn't go much beyond "she'll kill you," and of course humming
that tune. And the "can you help me?" closing B/S scene seems to
stick mostly to the surface level. All things considered,
disappointingly bland stuff.
That being said, some of the mechanics lead to good moments. The
encounter between Spike and a recent siree is one of them, as they both
gradually piece together what's going on, although I wish they'd
gone with a more interesting way of recovering his memory afterward
than just having vague flashes and talking out loud a lot. The premise
of him calling her cell, frantically looking for help and a chance to
tell someone what he's discovered, is a nice one. The biggest
highlight is the action setpiece with the rising vampires and Spike in
vamp-face launching his sudden attack on our hero. His reaction after
he snaps out of it is played well (somewhat reminiscent of the worm
scene in BY), as is Buffy getting a sense of what's going on and
kinda getting him out of the way before doing the killing, quickly
going down the line of vampires: poke, poke, stab.
"The Big Bad made him do it, he had no control" feels slightly
cheap as a resolution to the cliffhanger ending of CWDP, but I can't
complain too fervently given that the adequacy of the setup for this
revelation can't be denied.
I do appreciate the sense of rationality that pervades the episode.
Characters tend not to jump to conclusions about what they've learned
from their Conversations. Take Dawn; okay, so maybe she's going to
want to keep what she's learned/"learned" to herself. But she
seems open to both the possibility of real and false messages; wanting
to believe one thing and being afraid of the other translates here into
sitting on it and thinking for awhile. On a more immediate note,
there's Spike to deal with, and Buffy refuses to take her late
nemesis's words about Peroxide Boy as uncontested truth, but
doesn't jump on Willow's story as an excuse to ignore Holden
either. She might have done that were her feelings for Spike unduly
clouding her judgment, a natural fear. Instead, we get "... and, if
it is an act, then the Oscar goes to..." And he's certainly
convincing, for reasons that of course become obvious, when showing no
reaction to Holden's name, and also when talking about how the
memories of his past are affecting him - not something he's spoken
about much before.
Some might question our Slayer's judgment in waiting to be sure as
the apparent evidence, and bodies, mount up. But she turns out to be
right that Spoik isn't lying about what's going on. The end of the
episode has her decide to keep him around despite the danger as a way
of figuring out what's happening. Throughout the episode, even
disapprovers like Xander resist the urge to fly off the handle about
it, hoping that they can trust Buffy on the decisions with regard to
how to fight evil, granted that it's worked okay before.
So are we meant to believe Spike's explanation that he's been
seeking out and flirting with the much younger ladies because of
missing Buffy? That doesn't seem right, unless FBY was nudging him
in that direction.
Anya's scenes tend to bother me this week, and it's hard to explain
exactly why. I didn't really buy the casualness with which the
others leave her to watch a suspected serial killer, and the way she
takes it; here the snide comments about that very thing tend to call
the viewer's attention to the problem rather than defuse it. And her
attempt to get kinky with William is rather painful to watch - it's
like a scene laden with discomfort that the show hasn't, through
plotting, earned the right to inflict it on the viewer. If that even
makes any sense.
But while we're talking about Anya, "if I get vamped, I'm gonna
bite your ass." "Wouldn't be the first time." The show keeps
hinting that the two of them were quite experimental while they were
together, all off-screen.
As far as the chip goes, if Spike can hit someone hard enough to knock
him out with an easily-endured headache as the only consequence, the
chip really isn't doing a very good job. (Fanwak: He's had a few
years to get used to the pain and develop a bit of tolerance.) I think
from a storytelling perspective, it's outlived its usefulness -
Spike even directly says that the soul is a far more important
deterrent for him. Unless there are plans I haven't predicted, it
might've been wiser to come up with a mumbo-jumbo explanation to make
Soul!Spike immune to the wiring.
Nothing to say about that ending with Giles, except to say that the
writers are not nice people. Having someone raise a weapon just as the
screen goes black is actually an old enough trick that I'm surprised
the show hasn't had occasion to use it before. Well, since Giles
hasn't been seen since (I think) "Beneath You," the thrill of his
appearance makes the suspense moment work better than it would
otherwise. Otherwise, EVS, we'll see what happens.
According to the transcript, Aimee Mann is the performer at the Bronze.
She's like mildly famous and stuff.
This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed anyway moment(s):
- "Man, I hate playing vampire towns"
So...
One-sentence summary: Adequate.
AOQ rating: Decent
[Season Seven so far:
1) "Lessons" - Good
2) "Beneath You" - Decent
3) "Same Time, Same Place" - Excellent
4) "Help" - Good
5) "Selfless" - SUPERLATIVE
6) "Him" - Bad
7) "Conversations With Dead People" - Good
8) "Sleeper" - Decent]
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> As far as the chip goes, if Spike can hit someone hard enough to knock
> him out with an easily-endured headache as the only consequence, the
> chip really isn't doing a very good job. (Fanwak: He's had a few
> years to get used to the pain and develop a bit of tolerance.) I think
> from a storytelling perspective, it's outlived its usefulness -
> Spike even directly says that the soul is a far more important
> deterrent for him. Unless there are plans I haven't predicted, it
> might've been wiser to come up with a mumbo-jumbo explanation to make
> Soul!Spike immune to the wiring.
assuming vampires are similar to humans
pain is just a signal in some neurons
suppress those neurons and pain disappears
meow arf meow - they are performing horrible experiments in space
major grubert is watching you - beware the bakalite
there can only be one or two - the airtight garage has you neo
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 8: "Sleeper"
> (or "[insert sound of whistling _In The Hall Of The Mountain
> King_]")
Or "Early one Morning" (Or "The Friendly Giant Theme" for Canadians)
> Writers: David Fury and Jane Espenson
> Director: Alan J. Levi
>
> It's impressive how much of act one is devoted to characters
> recapping the events of the previous episode to each other and thinking
> about them. The end-of-act-one fadeout made me wonder if anything had
> in fact happened other than recapping the events of the previous
> episode and thinking about them. Later parts up the action quotient
> with lots of thrilling slow pans of people weaving through crowds for
> extended lengths of time (does downtown Sunnydale often get so
> packed?). I jest and mock a little, but it does strike me as a fairly
> slow-moving episode except for the end, more so than it needs to be.
One of the complaints from a lot of viewers over the years was that we
never see any of theses people tell each other the stuff that's been
happening to them, so now we have a scene were the characters talk about
what happened, and you complain that it's boring. (I've been telling
people that showing that stuff would be boring for years.)
> That being said, some of the mechanics lead to good moments. The
> encounter between Spike and a recent siree is one of them, as they both
> gradually piece together what's going on, although I wish they'd
> gone with a more interesting way of recovering his memory afterward
> than just having vague flashes and talking out loud a lot. The premise
> of him calling her cell, frantically looking for help and a chance to
> tell someone what he's discovered, is a nice one. The biggest
> highlight is the action setpiece with the rising vampires and Spike in
> vamp-face launching his sudden attack on our hero. His reaction after
> he snaps out of it is played well (somewhat reminiscent of the worm
> scene in BY), as is Buffy getting a sense of what's going on and
> kinda getting him out of the way before doing the killing, quickly
> going down the line of vampires: poke, poke, stab.
And just as the taste of Dracula's blood broke Buffy's thrall, so the
taste of Buffy's blood broke Spike's thrall.
>
> Anya's scenes tend to bother me this week, and it's hard to explain
> exactly why. I didn't really buy the casualness with which the
> others leave her to watch a suspected serial killer, and the way she
> takes it; here the snide comments about that very thing tend to call
> the viewer's attention to the problem rather than defuse it. And her
> attempt to get kinky with William is rather painful to watch - it's
> like a scene laden with discomfort that the show hasn't, through
> plotting, earned the right to inflict it on the viewer. If that even
> makes any sense.
While some question the wisdom of leaving her alone in the apartment
with Spike, she did pick a seat that was flooded by sunlight to sit
herself down in.
> As far as the chip goes, if Spike can hit someone hard enough to knock
> him out with an easily-endured headache as the only consequence, the
> chip really isn't doing a very good job. (Fanwak: He's had a few
> years to get used to the pain and develop a bit of tolerance.) I think
> from a storytelling perspective, it's outlived its usefulness -
> Spike even directly says that the soul is a far more important
> deterrent for him. Unless there are plans I haven't predicted, it
> might've been wiser to come up with a mumbo-jumbo explanation to make
> Soul!Spike immune to the wiring.
Or maybe the battery's just running down. The chip is three years old
now.
>
> Nothing to say about that ending with Giles, except to say that the
> writers are not nice people. Having someone raise a weapon just as the
> screen goes black is actually an old enough trick that I'm surprised
> the show hasn't had occasion to use it before. Well, since Giles
> hasn't been seen since (I think) "Beneath You," the thrill of his
> appearance makes the suspense moment work better than it would
> otherwise. Otherwise, EVS, we'll see what happens.
This is the best look we've had at the brown robe guys, up till now, and
gee, they look familiar.
>
> According to the transcript, Aimee Mann is the performer at the Bronze.
> She's like mildly famous and stuff.
And I went out and bought her latest CD after seeing this ep.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Rincewind
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 8: "Sleeper"
> (or "[insert sound of whistling _In The Hall Of The Mountain
> King_]")
> Writers: David Fury and Jane Espenson
> Director: Alan J. Levi
I have a problem with this episode: WHEN did Spike sire all those vampires
in the basement?
Until now the show has consistently told us that a newly sired vampire rises
from his grave the first night after the human has been killed. So are we
supposed to believe that Spike sired and dragged to the basement and buried
all those people in just one night and still had time to come home before
dawn to see Buffy talking with Xander? Or were they special vampires
champions in "Synchronized Rising from the Grave" (new olympic category)
that were sired in the course of a week and waited in their grave for days
because the script told them to?
> Early on Spike is induced to kill again by From Beneath You Guy taking
> the form of Buffy, in one of the more intense moments of the episode.
> "You know I want you to." Based on past evidence, "Lessons"
> and "Selfless" in particular, appearing as her seems to be the most
> effective way to keep Spike thoroughly confused, so one wonders why
> most of FBYG's appearances this episode are as Spike. Its propaganda
> doesn't go much beyond "she'll kill you," and of course humming
> that tune. And the "can you help me?" closing B/S scene seems to
> stick mostly to the surface level. All things considered,
> disappointingly bland stuff.
Yeah, disappointing.
> That being said, some of the mechanics lead to good moments. The
> encounter between Spike and a recent siree is one of them, as they both
> gradually piece together what's going on, although I wish they'd
> gone with a more interesting way of recovering his memory afterward
> than just having vague flashes and talking out loud a lot.
This Is Really Stupid And I Didn't Laugh:
"So it was just a one-bite stand?"
Yeah, quite unusual behaviour for Xander: maybe he has learned something
from Selfless after all.
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Adequate.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
For me it's Weak bordering on Decent.
Rincewind.
--
Lines you'll never hear on Buffy:
BUFFY: This vampire- he was somebody I knew in High School, Holden
something- he said Spike sired him, that Spike's been killing people for
weeks now, making new vampires.
XANDER: Holden? Holden Webster? Spike sired Webs?
BUFFY: Xander, I think we need a little less emphasis on the Holden part and
more on the "Spike killing people" part.
XANDER: Nah, I already knew that part. (vamps out) See?
BUFFY (in shock): XANDER! Oh, God, you're- you're- (breathing harder) You're
evil! Get on me!
(Buffy wraps her body around VampXander, starts grinding, trying to drag him
to the floor. VampXander pushes her off, throwing her to the ground.)
VAMP XANDER: Please! You're the Slayer! Some of us vampires have standards,
y'know. (Starts out, turns back) Oh, and I staked Spike. 'Cause that guy was
just embarrassing us all.
Don Sample
"Rincewind" <rincewi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> >A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > threads.
> >
> >
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Seven, Episode 8: "Sleeper"
> > (or "[insert sound of whistling _In The Hall Of The Mountain
> > King_]")
> > Writers: David Fury and Jane Espenson
> > Director: Alan J. Levi
>
> I have a problem with this episode: WHEN did Spike sire all those vampires
> in the basement?
> Until now the show has consistently told us that a newly sired vampire rises
> from his grave the first night after the human has been killed. So are we
> supposed to believe that Spike sired and dragged to the basement and buried
> all those people in just one night and still had time to come home before
> dawn to see Buffy talking with Xander? Or were they special vampires
> champions in "Synchronized Rising from the Grave" (new olympic category)
> that were sired in the course of a week and waited in their grave for days
> because the script told them to?
Or the FBYG told them to wait until it called.
Apteryx
news:1158727861....@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> exactly why. I didn't really buy the casualness with which the
> others leave her to watch a suspected serial killer, and the way she
> takes it; here the snide comments about that very thing tend to call
> the viewer's attention to the problem rather than defuse it. And her
> attempt to get kinky with William is rather painful to watch - it's
> like a scene laden with discomfort that the show hasn't, through
> plotting, earned the right to inflict it on the viewer. If that even
> makes any sense.
Agree about the logic of leaving the suspect serial killer of young women to
be guarded by a solitary young woman, but the scene itself works for me.
It's pure Anya, badly faking being hurt when her badly faked seduction
attempt fails.
> As far as the chip goes, if Spike can hit someone hard enough to knock
> him out with an easily-endured headache as the only consequence, the
> chip really isn't doing a very good job. (Fanwak: He's had a few
> years to get used to the pain and develop a bit of tolerance.) I think
> from a storytelling perspective, it's outlived its usefulness -
> Spike even directly says that the soul is a far more important
> deterrent for him. Unless there are plans I haven't predicted, it
> might've been wiser to come up with a mumbo-jumbo explanation to make
> Soul!Spike immune to the wiring.
He doesn't seem to be immune so much as less affected by it. But the
warranty on that chip must have expired by now.
> Nothing to say about that ending with Giles, except to say that the
> writers are not nice people. Having someone raise a weapon just as the
> screen goes black is actually an old enough trick that I'm surprised
> the show hasn't had occasion to use it before. Well, since Giles
> hasn't been seen since (I think) "Beneath You," the thrill of his
> appearance makes the suspense moment work better than it would
> otherwise. Otherwise, EVS, we'll see what happens.
IF Giles survives, then this will have been a cliff-hanger worthy of 1930's
Lone Ranger "shorts" - the ones where you see the Lone Ranger clearly fall 6
feet below the bush growing on the cliff-face, and then next week find him
clinging to that bush.
>
> One-sentence summary: Adequate.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
Pretty much. This is an episode where I constantly find new things each time
I watch it. But its not because its deep. The new stuff I find is stuff that
happened immediately after I got bored the last time I watched and got
distracted by random reading material, pictures on the wall, fluff on the
carpet. I've never been able to watch it through in one go paying strict
attention to everything that happens, and although it has some good stuff,
it doesn't hang together for me. Its my 97th favourite BtVS episode, 12th
best in season 7
--
Apteryx
Elisi
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 8: "Sleeper"
> (or "[insert sound of whistling _In The Hall Of The Mountain
> King_]")
> Writers: David Fury and Jane Espenson
> Director: Alan J. Levi
This one I love. It's an episode I'll re-watch quite simply for the
pleasure of viewing. It's slow, but I quite like that. Also it's our
first real look at what souled!Spike is like, and I find that
fascinating.
> Early on Spike is induced to kill again by From Beneath You Guy taking
> the form of Buffy, in one of the more intense moments of the episode.
> "You know I want you to." Based on past evidence, "Lessons"
> and "Selfless" in particular, appearing as her seems to be the most
> effective way to keep Spike thoroughly confused, so one wonders why
> most of FBYG's appearances this episode are as Spike.
He's talking to himself! *g* Maybe they just wanted to let JM show off
his range? Here he's nice souled!Spike, smooth evil FBY!Spike and
Grrr!Spike. It also throws into sharp contrast just how much Spike
_has_ changed. He's quiet, withdrawn and a shadow of his former self.
Its propaganda
> doesn't go much beyond "she'll kill you," and of course humming
> that tune. And the "can you help me?" closing B/S scene seems to
> stick mostly to the surface level. All things considered,
> disappointingly bland stuff.
Really? Spike actually asked for help - something he's been unable to
do for 7 episodes. And the way he offered himself up when he thought
Buffy was going to stake him ("Do it fast, OK?"). *sigh* OK, so I turn
into a hopeless shipper at that point, but I still think it's a good
moment.
> That being said, some of the mechanics lead to good moments. The
> encounter between Spike and a recent siree is one of them,
I love that fight, and the way the crowd just shrug off the exploding
vamp... ah, so jaded. And - even more - the song that's being played is
called 'Pavlov's Bell'. It's stuff like that that makes the show just
that bit more special.
as they both
> gradually piece together what's going on, although I wish they'd
> gone with a more interesting way of recovering his memory afterward
> than just having vague flashes and talking out loud a lot.
So actually tasting Buffy's blood (for the first time!) wasn't
interesting?
The premise
> of him calling her cell, frantically looking for help and a chance to
> tell someone what he's discovered, is a nice one. The biggest
> highlight is the action setpiece with the rising vampires and Spike in
> vamp-face launching his sudden attack on our hero. His reaction after
> he snaps out of it is played well (somewhat reminiscent of the worm
> scene in BY), as is Buffy getting a sense of what's going on and
> kinda getting him out of the way before doing the killing, quickly
> going down the line of vampires: poke, poke, stab.
Echoes of 'Into the Woods'.
> "The Big Bad made him do it, he had no control" feels slightly
> cheap as a resolution to the cliffhanger ending of CWDP, but I can't
> complain too fervently given that the adequacy of the setup for this
> revelation can't be denied.
The question is of course 'why?'
> I do appreciate the sense of rationality that pervades the episode.
> Characters tend not to jump to conclusions about what they've learned
> from their Conversations.
Isn't that nice?
On a more immediate note,
> there's Spike to deal with, and Buffy refuses to take her late
> nemesis's words about Peroxide Boy as uncontested truth, but
> doesn't jump on Willow's story as an excuse to ignore Holden
> either. She might have done that were her feelings for Spike unduly
> clouding her judgment, a natural fear. Instead, we get "... and, if
> it is an act, then the Oscar goes to..." And he's certainly
> convincing, for reasons that of course become obvious, when showing no
> reaction to Holden's name, and also when talking about how the
> memories of his past are affecting him - not something he's spoken
> about much before.
>
> Some might question our Slayer's judgment in waiting to be sure as
> the apparent evidence, and bodies, mount up. But she turns out to be
> right that Spoik isn't lying about what's going on. The end of the
> episode has her decide to keep him around despite the danger as a way
> of figuring out what's happening. Throughout the episode, even
> disapprovers like Xander resist the urge to fly off the handle about
> it, hoping that they can trust Buffy on the decisions with regard to
> how to fight evil, granted that it's worked okay before.
Another nice point. And re. Buffy, then we see again how the Slayer
aspect of her plays into her actions. She tries to find the truth, even
if it means that she'll have to kill Spike. That's just how it works.
And I loved seeing the others (Xander esp) trusting her.
> So are we meant to believe Spike's explanation that he's been
> seeking out and flirting with the much younger ladies because of
> missing Buffy? That doesn't seem right, unless FBY was nudging him
> in that direction.
I think the girls probably sought him out ("the girls like Billy Idol")
and things progressed from there... (Also adored "Actually Billy Idol
stole his look from-")
> Anya's scenes tend to bother me this week, and it's hard to explain
> exactly why. I didn't really buy the casualness with which the
> others leave her to watch a suspected serial killer, and the way she
> takes it; here the snide comments about that very thing tend to call
> the viewer's attention to the problem rather than defuse it. And her
> attempt to get kinky with William is rather painful to watch - it's
> like a scene laden with discomfort that the show hasn't, through
> plotting, earned the right to inflict it on the viewer. If that even
> makes any sense.
Very painful, yes, but worth it for "Soulless Spike would have had me
upside down and halfway to happy land by now!"
> But while we're talking about Anya, "if I get vamped, I'm gonna
> bite your ass." "Wouldn't be the first time." The show keeps
> hinting that the two of them were quite experimental while they were
> together, all off-screen.
I love the quiet affection between them here. :)
> As far as the chip goes, if Spike can hit someone hard enough to knock
> him out with an easily-endured headache as the only consequence, the
> chip really isn't doing a very good job. (Fanwak: He's had a few
> years to get used to the pain and develop a bit of tolerance.)
It also shows that the chip _does_ work. So FBY has found a way of
bypassing it...
I think
> from a storytelling perspective, it's outlived its usefulness -
> Spike even directly says that the soul is a far more important
> deterrent for him.
Speaking of that argument... (when Buffy comes in and throws him of the
bed), it's one of my favourite scenes and very well written. Because
it's an argument within an argument. First they talk about Spike maybe
killing again - angry and defensive. But then, when speaking of the
girls he talks to, it suddenly turn into a discussion of _them_ - of
their relationship, or maybe lack of. "God help me Buffy, it's still
all about you." The whole tone changes, and Buffy backs way down,
because she knows that he's right. She even admitted to Holden that
Spike loved her whilst soulless. Then the possible killings are brought
up again, and they're back to being angry. A most satisfying scene.
> Nothing to say about that ending with Giles, except to say that the
> writers are not nice people.
Hehehehehehe.
> According to the transcript, Aimee Mann is the performer at the Bronze.
> She's like mildly famous and stuff.
Apparently Joss turned onto a squealing fanboy. And I've got this album
as well... ('Lost in Space' - hereby recommended)
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed anyway moment(s):
> - "Man, I hate playing vampire towns"
:)
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Adequate.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
Easily a Good for me - maybe even somewhere near Excellent if we count
pure viewing pleasure.
Wes <>
<rincewi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>> threads.
>>
>>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Seven, Episode 8: "Sleeper"
>> (or "[insert sound of whistling _In The Hall Of The Mountain
>> King_]")
>> Writers: David Fury and Jane Espenson
>> Director: Alan J. Levi
>
>I have a problem with this episode: WHEN did Spike sire all those vampires
>in the basement?
>Until now the show has consistently told us that a newly sired vampire rises
>from his grave the first night after the human has been killed.
>
I've thought they've been very inconsistant with this, unless they do
things differently in California than in North Carolina - which is
definately a possibility. Sometimes in the graveyard, sometimes in the
funeral home, sometimes in the morgue. It seems like 1 or 2 even rose
where they fell after only a few minutes have passed. I've never seen
a logical pattern to it.
>>
>> One-sentence summary: Adequate.
>>
>> AOQ rating: Decent
>
>For me it's Weak bordering on Decent.
>
>Rincewind.
Wes
Ken from Chicago
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1158727861....@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
But it's the truth. The truth is sometimes more disappointing when it's
rather simple (like a talisman a 4-year-old could use to raise ghosts to
haunt a school's basement) instead of some complex thing uber-conspiracy.
Spike = BUFFY's "Gollum".
He's a murderous creature who treads between good and evil who. Whether he
will go ultimately good or eventually falling to temptation of his
"precious" ... remains to be seen. Meanwhile because he has a foot in both
realms he has access that the purely good wouldn't have--and that is of
practical value to Our Heroes, our ... fellowship ... of Scoobies.
> So are we meant to believe Spike's explanation that he's been
> seeking out and flirting with the much younger ladies because of
> missing Buffy? That doesn't seem right, unless FBY was nudging him
> in that direction.
>
> Anya's scenes tend to bother me this week, and it's hard to explain
> exactly why. I didn't really buy the casualness with which the
> others leave her to watch a suspected serial killer, and the way she
> takes it; here the snide comments about that very thing tend to call
> the viewer's attention to the problem rather than defuse it. And her
> attempt to get kinky with William is rather painful to watch - it's
> like a scene laden with discomfort that the show hasn't, through
> plotting, earned the right to inflict it on the viewer. If that even
> makes any sense.
>
> But while we're talking about Anya, "if I get vamped, I'm gonna
> bite your ass." "Wouldn't be the first time." The show keeps
> hinting that the two of them were quite experimental while they were
> together, all off-screen.
>
> As far as the chip goes, if Spike can hit someone hard enough to knock
> him out with an easily-endured headache as the only consequence, the
> chip really isn't doing a very good job. (Fanwak: He's had a few
> years to get used to the pain and develop a bit of tolerance.) I think
That's actually why electroshock or its high-falutin' modern cousin ECT
(Electro-Convulsive Therapy) tends to be ineffective for the long-term.
People develop a tolerance.
> from a storytelling perspective, it's outlived its usefulness -
> Spike even directly says that the soul is a far more important
> deterrent for him. Unless there are plans I haven't predicted, it
> might've been wiser to come up with a mumbo-jumbo explanation to make
> Soul!Spike immune to the wiring.
>
> Nothing to say about that ending with Giles, except to say that the
> writers are not nice people. Having someone raise a weapon just as the
I've said that literally for DECADES that writers are evil.
I'm the number one item found when googling "writers are evil":
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22writers+are+evil%22
I'm the top FIVE items found when googling same in groups:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&q=%22writers%20are%20evil%22&sa=N&tab=wg
And the better a writer is at writing fiction the MORE evil they are.
> screen goes black is actually an old enough trick that I'm surprised
> the show hasn't had occasion to use it before. Well, since Giles
> hasn't been seen since (I think) "Beneath You," the thrill of his
> appearance makes the suspense moment work better than it would
> otherwise. Otherwise, EVS, we'll see what happens.
>
> According to the transcript, Aimee Mann is the performer at the Bronze.
> She's like mildly famous and stuff.
>
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed anyway moment(s):
> - "Man, I hate playing vampire towns"
>
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Adequate.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
>
> [Season Seven so far:
> 1) "Lessons" - Good
> 2) "Beneath You" - Decent
> 3) "Same Time, Same Place" - Excellent
> 4) "Help" - Good
> 5) "Selfless" - SUPERLATIVE
> 6) "Him" - Bad
> 7) "Conversations With Dead People" - Good
> 8) "Sleeper" - Decent]
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mair_fheal-F4F07...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
And buffyvamps are mockeries of life--plus they tend to actually like pain.
-- Ken from Chicago
Rincewind
> <rincewi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Until now the show has consistently told us that a newly sired vampire
>>rises
>>from his grave the first night after the human has been killed.
>
>>
> I've thought they've been very inconsistant with this, unless they do
> things differently in California than in North Carolina - which is
> definately a possibility. Sometimes in the graveyard, sometimes in the
> funeral home, sometimes in the morgue. It seems like 1 or 2 even rose
> where they fell after only a few minutes have passed. I've never seen
> a logical pattern to it.
Well, I expect Angel to be an authority on the subject.
From "Reunion":
WESLEY: Darla's human self has died and sometime before dawn, unless Angel
can stop it, she will rise again, a soulless demon.
GUNN: So that means.. .
WESLEY: The clock is ticking.
.....
ANGEL: What do you got?
WESLEY: Uhm, sunset is at 5:47 P.M. which is... (looks at his watch) was six
minutes ago, and sunrise is at 6:15 A.M.
ANGEL: It could happen anytime before then.
Also, what's the point of Buffy going to the morgue or to specific graves to
wait for the vampire to rise if she doesn't know how many days it will take?
Rincewind.
--
Lines you'll never hear on Buffy:
DRUSILLA: The Slayer. I can't see her! (wailing) It's dark where she is!
(turns to Spike). Kill, Spike.
SPIKE: It's done, luv.
DRUSILLA: Kill her for Princess?
SPIKE: I'll chop her into messes. Unless she's, y'know, hot or something.
DRUSILLA: (groans)
SPIKE: What? She's hot, isn't she? (jumping up and down, excited) Oooh,
yeah, the Slayer's a hottie!!
DRUSILLA: Bloody hell.
Elisi
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > Early on Spike is induced to kill again by From Beneath You Guy taking
> > the form of Buffy, in one of the more intense moments of the episode.
> > "You know I want you to." Based on past evidence, "Lessons"
> > and "Selfless" in particular, appearing as her seems to be the most
> > effective way to keep Spike thoroughly confused, so one wonders why
> > most of FBYG's appearances this episode are as Spike.
> Its propaganda
> > doesn't go much beyond "she'll kill you," and of course humming
> > that tune.
About that scene with Buffy following Spike. I don't know if you
noticed, but the guy with the mouth organ starts playing 'Early One
Morning' as Spike walks by, and Spike begins humming it himself, as his
whole demeanor changes - he really is on the prowl all of a sudden.
> > That being said, some of the mechanics lead to good moments. The
> > encounter between Spike and a recent siree is one of them,
There is the wonderful moment when they survey the crowd below, and she
points out a couple as a potential snack - this mirrors the Bronze
scene from Crush with Dru almost exactly. (Except of course he and Dru
were on the dancefloor looking up at the balcony) It's nice way of
referencing the past, and also of showing the huge changes Spike's gone
through ("I didn't ask if you wanted to be soulmates!").
Elisi
> I have a problem with this episode: WHEN did Spike sire all those vampires
> in the basement?
> Until now the show has consistently told us that a newly sired vampire rises
> from his grave the first night after the human has been killed. So are we
> supposed to believe that Spike sired and dragged to the basement and buried
> all those people in just one night and still had time to come home before
> dawn to see Buffy talking with Xander? Or were they special vampires
> champions in "Synchronized Rising from the Grave" (new olympic category)
> that were sired in the course of a week and waited in their grave for days
> because the script told them to?
You're getting the days mixed up. There's the night of CWDP when Buffy
talks to Holden and Spike kills the nameless blonde girl.
The next evening when he goes out, Buffy follows him, and he kills the
girl he chats up in the crowd, as FBY!Buffy eggs him on. _That_ night
FBY gets him to kill a whole bunch of people, who then turn up missing
when Willow looks through the police files (as a sort of big flashing
neon sign to alert the Scoobies I guess) the next day. That evening
Spike goes out again to figure out what's going on, calls Buffy and
takes her to the house and hey presto - lots of vamps!
It's a lot of people to kill in one night, but all we see of that night
is early evening with Spike going out, and the later confrontation with
Buffy which is the morning after:
BUFFY: Did you kill her?
SPIKE: What?
BUFFY: The girl. Last night.
And since he's in bed (asleep) when Buffy comes storming in, it stands
to reason that he's been out all night and Xander gave Buffy a call
when he heard him come in. Does it make sense now?
Rincewind
You're right, it's been a lot of time since I rewatched this episode so I
got the days mixed up.
But there still is a problem: at the beginning of this episode Spike buries
the nameless blonde girl form CWDP in the basement of the same house where
he will bury the others (it's explicitly told in the script), so I assume
the owner of the house is already dead. The script also tells that the last
vampire to rise from the basement is the former owner of the house, so she
must have been buried for two days.
> It's a lot of people to kill in one night,
I wonder if vampires ever get indigestion from drinking too much blood? :-)
Rincewind.
--
What I have learned from Buffy:
Aimee Mann hates playing vampire towns.
vague disclaimer
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Really? Spike actually asked for help - something he's been unable to
> do for 7 episodes. And the way he offered himself up when he thought
> Buffy was going to stake him ("Do it fast, OK?"). *sigh* OK, so I turn
> into a hopeless shipper at that point, but I still think it's a good
> moment.
As a resident un-shipper, let me just say that it is, indeed, a good
moment. In fact I'd up-rate it to excellent.
> She even admitted to Holden that
> Spike loved her whilst soulless. Then the possible killings are brought
> up again, and they're back to being angry. A most satisfying scene.
And just to re-assert my un-shipper creds, I note how those who point
out this line always omit the "sick, soulless way" part ("whilst
soulless" doesn't quite capture the meaning, does it?) :-).
--
Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
Elisi
Hm..... maybe she was stuck the whole time? *g*
And it's at this point that being obsessive gives me a headache.
> > It's a lot of people to kill in one night,
>
> I wonder if vampires ever get indigestion from drinking too much blood? :-)
Hehehehehe.
Elisi
vague disclaimer wrote:
> In article <1158735567....@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
> "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Really? Spike actually asked for help - something he's been unable to
> > do for 7 episodes. And the way he offered himself up when he thought
> > Buffy was going to stake him ("Do it fast, OK?"). *sigh* OK, so I turn
> > into a hopeless shipper at that point, but I still think it's a good
> > moment.
>
> As a resident un-shipper, let me just say that it is, indeed, a good
> moment. In fact I'd up-rate it to excellent.
Thank you. There are times when trying to be objective is very hard,
and I'm very aware of such moments, so it's nice to get an objective
POV.
> > She even admitted to Holden that
> > Spike loved her whilst soulless. Then the possible killings are brought
> > up again, and they're back to being angry. A most satisfying scene.
>
> And just to re-assert my un-shipper creds, I note how those who point
> out this line always omit the "sick, soulless way" part ("whilst
> soulless" doesn't quite capture the meaning, does it?) :-).
Oh I don't mind the 'in his own sick, soulless way' at all. But you try
to write stuff at 7am before getting children ready for school and not
cut corners! ;)
Rincewind
I understand... I am not always so fixated on small details, but somehow
there are some kinds of mistakes that for me stand out more than others and
ruin the pleasure of watching the show.
For instance I always HATED the fact that action movies ALWAYS get the time
of timer activated bombs wrong: you always see the timer counting down from
10 to 5 secs and then it takes half a minute of screen time before the
explosion.
And cars or trains always take too much time to run over the poor victim
(like they do in Him).
And Jonathan and Andrew in CWDP magically finish to dig out the seal while
they are talking (look at the part where Jonathan makes his last big speech:
when the scene begins there is still a thick layer of dirt over the seal,
then the camera pans up to focus on them talking and they stop digging, then
the camera pans down again and the seal is completely uncovered).
I don't need to analyse the scene to get the inconsistency: I feel it
instinctively and it annoys me a lot. It feels wrong. (Yvxr gur gvzryvar bs
Rzcgl Cynprf / Gbhpurq: vg'f whfg jebat.).
Rincewind.
--
Lines you'll never hear on Buffy:
XANDER: Hey guys! Guess what! I just went on a date and she didn't turn out
to be a demon or evil!
BUFFY: Did you check for an Adam's apple?
XANDER: Yup! And she definately had one!
Captain Infinity
>Early on Spike is induced to kill again by From Beneath You Guy taking
>the form of Buffy, in one of the more intense moments of the episode.
Interesting. My mental picture of From Beneath You Guy has always been
as From Beneath You Gal. Anyone else?
**
Captain Infinity
Rowan Hawthorn
> "Wes <>" <swap...@atomic.net> wrote:
>> <rincewi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Until now the show has consistently told us that a newly sired vampire
>>> rises
>> >from his grave the first night after the human has been killed.
>>
>> I've thought they've been very inconsistant with this, unless they do
>> things differently in California than in North Carolina - which is
>> definately a possibility. Sometimes in the graveyard, sometimes in the
>> funeral home, sometimes in the morgue. It seems like 1 or 2 even rose
>> where they fell after only a few minutes have passed. I've never seen
>> a logical pattern to it.
>
>
> wait for the vampire to rise if she doesn't know how many days it will take?
>
> Rincewind.
We've seen people rise from the morgue, the funeral home, their graves,
and their place of death. Since people are rarely if ever buried the
same day they die (in the US, at any rate,) that in itself should be a
tip-off that there's no real consistency to the time it takes for them
to rise.
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Rowan Hawthorn
Qnex!Tnvn?
Horace LaBadie
So, all along, Spike just needed to take Joyce's advice about Advil?
HWL
Espen Schjønberg
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1158727861....@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>> threads.
>>
>
>> writers are not nice people. Having someone raise a weapon just as the
>> screen goes black is actually an old enough trick that I'm surprised
>> the show hasn't had occasion to use it before. Well, since Giles
>> hasn't been seen since (I think) "Beneath You," the thrill of his
>> appearance makes the suspense moment work better than it would
>> otherwise. Otherwise, EVS, we'll see what happens.
>
> IF Giles survives, then this will have been a cliff-hanger worthy of 1930's
> Lone Ranger "shorts" - the ones where you see the Lone Ranger clearly fall 6
> feet below the bush growing on the cliff-face, and then next week find him
> clinging to that bush.
I totally agree with you. I don't see how that axe could not chop his
neck of.
Of course, Hollywood thinks the natural laws not is something they have
to think about, and some people might say I don't understand the concept
of fantasy television, but I know many of the old masters agree with me:
I have the clear impression someone like Buster Keaton always demanded
total consistency and logic in his movies.
It is, to me, clearly cheating to show the Lone Ranger fall of the cliff
in the first episode, and then not having fallen in the next. I think
the show has been true to the good principles before: when Joyce died,
she died. And when (on Angel) the Host did not die, he did not die, but
that was new rules. And fun.
S, we will find out how much the show has deteriorated.
>> One-sentence summary: Adequate.
>>
>> AOQ rating: Decent
>
Seems like I am a bit out of sync with AOQ here. To me, CWDP is the
first superlative for a long while, (Selfless was just excellent. Not
complaining about that of course;-)) , while this one was good.
BTW, rewatched Him yesterday, possibly for the first time in my life (or
possible for the second time.) I had forgotten how painful it was to
watch. Really, like, well, painful. I thought it was just really weak,
but AOQ was right about that: that one was bad. Even the bloopers were
horribly bad: just how Dawn leaves her purse in the principals office,
man, that looked silly. And if the gang are so affected by that jacket,
how come the owner didn't relive 3B totally?
--
Espen
rrh...@acme.com
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> According to the transcript, Aimee Mann is the performer at the Bronze.
> She's like mildly famous and stuff.
>
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed anyway moment(s):
> - "Man, I hate playing vampire towns"
Yes, that was Aimee Mann. She was performing songs from her album
"Lost in Space". It is a terrific album if you like that sort of
music, which I do. "Mildly famous" is about right. I vaguely recall a
discussion, perhaps from the commentary, about the decision to pay for
this upgrade from the usual Bronze fare. To me, Aimee Mann was what
made this episode. I otherwise agree with your "decent". But I
concede that is a reaction to my liking her.
Richard R. Hershberger
Elisi
I think it's one of those instances where it help to focus purely on
what's on screen. On screen there's no indication that the last vampire
is the lady of the house. Therefore, if vampires always rise the night
after they're sired, it's not her.
The scripts are often helpful, but sometimes just more of a hindrance.
F.ex. the song was initially going to be 'I'll Be Seeing You', so there
we have a major problem straight away! *g*
(I know what sort of inconsistencies you mean, but I always do my very
best to ignore/fanwank them away, because otherwise I just get too
annoyed!)
Malsperanza
That would be lousy, wouldn't it? I subscribe to the view that having a
soul has given Spike a greater strength to endure pain and/or has made
him more *willing* to endure pain because he understands the good
purpose of the chip (to a degree).
~Mal
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
I tried to post earlier but apparently hit the wrong key. Apologies if
this turns out to be a duplicate.
Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 8: "Sleeper"
> (or "[insert sound of whistling _In The Hall Of The Mountain
> King_]")
> Writers: David Fury and Jane Espenson
> Director: Alan J. Levi
.
> Early on Spike is induced to kill again by From Beneath You Guy taking
> the form of Buffy, in one of the more intense moments of the episode.
> "You know I want you to." Based on past evidence, "Lessons"
> and "Selfless" in particular, appearing as her seems to be the most
> effective way to keep Spike thoroughly confused, so one wonders why
> most of FBYG's appearances this episode are as Spike.
Mainly it's just to give Marsters a chance to shine, of course. Inside
the story, the FBYG is apparently trying to goad Spike by appearing as his
old, confident, unconflicted self. Maybe lowering new Spike's self-esteem
will make him more easily manipulated; or maybe the idea is to remind him
of how content he was before he fell for Buffy and how miserable he is
now, to wean him away from the light side. Or, more simply, it might just
be one more way of keeping Spike nice and insane. The bit near the end,
"He said you'd do it?" "Who said?" "Me. It was me." certainly *sounds*
like the ravings of a madman.
What's weird is that the FBYG is able to suppress or at least cloud
Spike's memories. It didn't try that with anyone in CWDP. Or maybe the
lack of memory is just Spike's own coping mechanism?
> "The Big Bad made him do it, he had no control" feels slightly
> cheap as a resolution to the cliffhanger ending of CWDP, but I can't
> complain too fervently given that the adequacy of the setup for this
> revelation can't be denied.
Also, while the ending of CWDP has been explained, Spike's story is still
unresolved at this point, so Sleeper doesn't feel too anticlimactic.
> Some might question our Slayer's judgment in waiting to be sure as
> the apparent evidence, and bodies, mount up. But she turns out to be
> right that Spoik isn't lying about what's going on. The end of the
> episode has her decide to keep him around despite the danger as a way
> of figuring out what's happening.
Regardless of practical considerations, it kinda feels like she also has
conflicted feelings about Spike. Interesting that when Spike seemed
mostly harmless, Buffy stuck him in Xander's closet, but now that Spike
seems more dangerous, less trustworthy (even if it's not his fault), she
wants to keep him closer to her.
> Anya's scenes tend to bother me this week, and it's hard to explain
> exactly why. I didn't really buy the casualness with which the
> others leave her to watch a suspected serial killer, and the way she
> takes it; here the snide comments about that very thing tend to call
> the viewer's attention to the problem rather than defuse it. And her
> attempt to get kinky with William is rather painful to watch - it's
> like a scene laden with discomfort that the show hasn't, through
> plotting, earned the right to inflict it on the viewer. If that even
> makes any sense.
I enjoyed the humor here more than you did, but the beginning of that
scene didn't make sense to me. Why would Anya suspect that a killer Spike
would be keeping trophies from his victims? He never did that before,
with the sole exception of the New York Slayer's coat. Anya is taking the
vampire-serial killer analogy way too seriously. But I guess the writers
couldn't think of any better way of getting Anya into Spike's bedcloset.
> Nothing to say about that ending with Giles, except to say that the
> writers are not nice people. Having someone raise a weapon just as the
> screen goes black is actually an old enough trick that I'm surprised
> the show hasn't had occasion to use it before.
It hasn't been used at the end of an episode before, but something similar
has occasionally been done right before act breaks -- Riley staking Spike
in Into the Woods comes to mind.
Giles bursts into Robson and Nora's apartment just after the robed guys
kill/fatally wound them. Does this scene shed any light on the two
mysterious girls killed at the beginnings of Lessons and Beneath You?
> According to the transcript, Aimee Mann is the performer at the Bronze.
> She's like mildly famous and stuff.
I'll belatedly point out that the band in Him was the Breeders. They're
even more famous than Aimee Mann, although their heyday was back in the
90s.
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed anyway moment(s):
"...Is that a stake?" "Yes. Kinky." "Well, yeah, but...."
> AOQ rating: Decent
I'll give it a high Decent, the high coming mainly from the FBYG messing
with Spike's head and the big fight scene.
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
>>>> Until now the show has consistently told us that a newly sired vampire
>>>> rises
>>> >from his grave the first night after the human has been killed.
>>>
>>> I've thought they've been very inconsistant with this, unless they do
>>> things differently in California than in North Carolina - which is
>>> definately a possibility. Sometimes in the graveyard, sometimes in the
>>> funeral home, sometimes in the morgue. It seems like 1 or 2 even rose
>>> where they fell after only a few minutes have passed. I've never seen
>>> a logical pattern to it.
>>
>> Also, what's the point of Buffy going to the morgue or to specific graves to
>> wait for the vampire to rise if she doesn't know how many days it will take?
>
> We've seen people rise from the morgue, the funeral home, their graves,
> and their place of death. Since people are rarely if ever buried the
> same day they die (in the US, at any rate,) that in itself should be a
> tip-off that there's no real consistency to the time it takes for them
> to rise.
I've always fanwanked that experienced vampires can make their sirees rise
earlier or later than usual by giving them more or less vamp blood. (For
example, Kralik may have given the Council operative an extra-large dose
to make him rise faster in Helpless.) Just a general point -- it wouldn't
apply to this particular episode, because neither Spike nor the FBYG knew
ahead of time when Buffy would show up. In this case the FBYG was
probably appearing to each of the vamps, telling them to stay still until
... now!
Malsperanza
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 8: "Sleeper"
> (or "[insert sound of whistling _In The Hall Of The Mountain
> King_]")
sneep sneep
> "The Big Bad made him do it, he had no control" feels slightly
> cheap as a resolution to the cliffhanger ending of CWDP, but I can't
> complain too fervently given that the adequacy of the setup for this
> revelation can't be denied.
I think the point that gets a little bit lost here is that Buffy now
knows definitively that she can't trust anyone she sees to be a real
manifestation of a real (dead) person. Obviously, that's most important
re Spike and Angel, who are her (possible) allies. So the uncertainty
about when she's talking to Real!Spike and when she's talking to
BottomFeeder!Spike makes it hard for her to work with him. Add to that
the uncertainty about whether Real!Spike just happens to be a bonkers
serial killer currently and the further uncertainty about whether the
chip is working on Real!Spike, and you have a big problem for Buffy.
All she has to place against that is her instinct for doing what's
right, and for believing in her own ability to understand Spike. Should
we feel equally confident?
> Some might question our Slayer's judgment in waiting to be sure as
> the apparent evidence, and bodies, mount up. But she turns out to be
> right that Spoik isn't lying about what's going on. The end of the
> episode has her decide to keep him around despite the danger as a way
> of figuring out what's happening.
That rings very true to me. Buffy has always wanted to keep danger
where she can see it. Similarly, she hid Resurrected!Angel while she
figured out if he was Evol or not. Plus, Buffy more and more embraces
aspects of the Dark Side. Maybe she doesn't even mind entirely if Spike
is somewhat Evol. Hard to say, at the moment.
> Anya's scenes tend to bother me this week, and it's hard to explain
> exactly why. I didn't really buy the casualness with which the
> others leave her to watch a suspected serial killer, and the way she
> takes it; here the snide comments about that very thing tend to call
> the viewer's attention to the problem rather than defuse it. And her
> attempt to get kinky with William is rather painful to watch - it's
> like a scene laden with discomfort that the show hasn't, through
> plotting, earned the right to inflict it on the viewer. If that even
> makes any sense.
I think the viewer discomfort is designed to show us how pitifully Anya
has fallen in the esteem of the Scoobies, and how lost she is--although
you have to hand it to her: she comes up with a clever way to deflect
Spike's curiosity, one that is plausible, given their history. What I
liked about this scene was Spike's response: He's not malicious, he
doesn't taunt her or make her look even more ridiculous. He makes it
clear that he's not interested, but in as polite a way as he can. (This
scene, btw, suggests to me that he is also not capable, at the moment.
I don't mean to imply that if he were capable he'd accept Anya's offer,
but I think there's a nice ambiguity there, which implies some other
things about post-Soul Spike's nature and condition at this point.)
> Nothing to say about that ending with Giles, except to say that the
> writers are not nice people.
In that they are not above using the oldest cliffhanger gimmick in the
world, and the least interesting.
> According to the transcript, Aimee Mann is the performer at the Bronze.
> She's like mildly famous and stuff.
Mostly via her music for "Magnolia," a movie that must have been an
influence on Whedon.
~Mal
One Bit Shy
news:1158773550.1...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> Nothing to say about that ending with Giles, except to say that the
>> writers are not nice people.
>
> In that they are not above using the oldest cliffhanger gimmick in the
> world, and the least interesting.
Ah, but there are two sides to a cliffhanger. Let us not judge prematurely.
OBS
One Bit Shy
news:1158761113.8...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
I never read the script, but I always thought the last one staked was the
referred to owner of the house. She was older and overweight and Buffy made
a point of being polite to her - it just seemed to naturally fit the story
that way.
I'm with Rowan and Wes. I don't think they've ever been consistent about
how long it took to rise, no matter what Wesley said about the timing in
Reunion. Back in Helpless, the vampire rose while Kralik waited - couldn't
have been more than a couple hours, since he still had time to kill the
other watcher's helper and go accost both Buffy and Joyce while it was still
evening. And people are rarely buried the day they die anyway.
There is another possibility right here. The big bad talking to Spike might
be coordinating their rising. That's what I tend to think, because
synchronized rising suggests planning. He certainly knew when they were
going to rise - just before it happens he says, "And it's just about to get
fun."
---
Not related, but I got reminded of a Kralik quote that I'd forgotten.
Kralik: Ever have a tune you can't get outta your head? It keeps playing
over and over and over? Drives me nuts.
OBS
Scythe Matters
> The end-of-act-one fadeout made me wonder if anything had
> in fact happened other than recapping the events of the previous
> episode and thinking about them.
The introduction of Robson. Putting Anya on Spike-watch. That's about it.
On the other hand, I really like that -- for once -- they're sharing
information and trying to piece it together. It's a nice change from the
usual Scooby practice of holding onto things until it's very nearly too
late. So I quite appreciate the first act, though I agree that what
follows is definitely on the slow side.
> one wonders why
> most of FBYG's appearances this episode are as Spike.
When this aired, I wondered if Bottom-biter was occasionaly morphing
into Spike to divert Buffy in her search for the real Spike. It's not
really filmed that way, but it would be logical.
Another thing then occurred: can we really trust that the people we've
seen onscreen have actually been the people we thought they were?
Obviously, in some cases, they weren't. So even aside from the
destabilization fest of "Conversations," we've got a whole new level of
paranoia. This thing can appear as Buffy and as Spike, at least. Other
than the obvious appearances, how can we trust that what we've seen
onscreen is the real deal? How can the characters trust their
interactions? Maybe they're just more manipulation on the part of the
bottom-eating Big Bad. This episode sorta sidesteps that issue while it
deals with the more immediate problem of whether or not Spike's killing
again, but it's something that has to be front and center, and soon.
> And the "can you help me?" closing B/S scene seems to
> stick mostly to the surface level. All things considered,
> disappointingly bland stuff.
This I can't agree with. It's not my favorite episode, but I think this
is all very well done: Buffy's bewilderment, anger, and fright in equal
measure, mitigated by that slender thread of hope that this problem is
soluble. Spike's madness and, as he figures it out, plea to be killed
for what he's done...and then desperate pleading, seemingly without
hope. I really think this is the absolute lowest point for him. He's
been chipped, fought for the good guys, fallen in some sort of love, and
gotten his soul back...and what does he have to show for it? He's a
killer, just as he was before.
---
MORPHING MONSTER (as THE MAYOR)
So what'd you think? You'd get your soul back and everything'd be Jim
Dandy? Soul's slipperier than a greased weasel. Why do you think I sold
mine? (laughs) Well, you probably thought that you'd be your own man,
and I respect that, but...
MORPHING MONSTER (as DRUSILLA)
(touching Spike's face) ...you never will.
[...]
MORPHING MONSTER (as THE MASTER)
You'll learn you're a pathetic schmuck, if it hasn't sunk in already.
---
Further, this brings a whole new perspective to Spike thus far this
season. Go back to the first seven episodes of this season. How many
times have we seen Spike allegedly babbling to himself & theoretically
insane? How many times was he actually conversing with this morphing
thing? So how insane is he, really? And if he's mostly been conversing
with this thing that actually exists in some fashion, now that he
understands that how's he going to feel about it? It's been easiest to
view his self-flagellating insanity thus far as an extended form of
misery and guilt post-soul. But what if he's not really at that stage at
all? What if he's more over it than he's thought, up to this point? Or
less? It's all very interesting to consider.
Finally, one has to wonder what the plan here is. We know FBY wants
Spike to kill these people, as it says it fairly explicitly. But after
that? It's all a little mysterious:
---
SPIKE-2
You shouldn't have done that. It's not time yet. Not nearly. You're
going against the plan, but we can make it work.
---
SPIKE-2
There's an order. The slayer's not in order. But it can't hurt to play.
Get your claws in the mouse, you know?
---
SPIKE-2
You know what I want you to do.
Buffy continues to fight the vampires, but they manage to get a hold on
her, one on each arm, holding her up for Spike.
SPIKE-2
They're waiting for you. Take her, taste her, make her weak.
---
SPIKE-2
You failed them. Now she's gonna kill you. You lose, mate.
---
Does FBY want Spike dead? It doesn't appear to care, but clearly that's
not the "A" plan. (What is? Perhaps more of the destablization we've
already seen, as this makes Spike both extremely dangerous and useless
to our gang. Or perhaps there's more to it.)
What's even more confusing is its plan for Buffy. Spike was burying this
evidence, and if he's done that with everyone he might have killed
indefinitely without Buffy finding out. But we know of at least two
exceptions: the girl in the Bronze (who doesn't appear to matter to the
greater arc) and Holden Webster, who reveals the whole thing to Buffy in
the first place. Was that his role, prompted by some bigger evil? Or was
that an accident? If Buffy wasn't supposed to find out yet, leaving
Spike as some sort of double agent within her circle, then the point
fairly clearly wasn't destablization but using Spike as an agent of
murder. To kill Buffy? If so, why not now, as FBY insists? And why, now
that Spike's been found out, is he still told he can't kill Buffy? It's
all very mysterious. What's the "plan"? What's the "order"?
And now that Buffy knows, what's the state of the plan? From what we
see, FBY doesn't appear to feel that it matters one bit. That's scary
confidence.
> although I wish they'd
> gone with a more interesting way of recovering his memory afterward
> than just having vague flashes and talking out loud a lot.
Maybe Bashir and O'Brien can take a walk through each others' minds. :-/
> "The Big Bad made him do it, he had no control" feels slightly
> cheap as a resolution to the cliffhanger ending of CWDP, but I can't
> complain too fervently given that the adequacy of the setup for this
> revelation can't be denied.
There's the obvious component of how much denial Buffy's really in
regarding her motivations here. And had the "Selfless" confrontation not
occurred, I think you'd see Xander in her face about it right now. And
justifiably so. That's why I think what you identify as "slightly cheap"
is deliberate here...it's supposed to add a layer to the characters more
than it's supposed to resolve a plot.
> Throughout the episode, even
> disapprovers like Xander resist the urge to fly off the handle about
> it, hoping that they can trust Buffy on the decisions with regard to
> how to fight evil, granted that it's worked okay before.
Yes. That Angelus thing worked out great. So did leaving the Trio
unmolested for so long. (That was sarcasm, by the way. In case you
couldn't tell. I know it was subtle.)
That said, there's probably no (dramatic) point in revisiting this
ground yet again, especially so soon after "Selfless." However, what if
there's more to it than meets the eye? It seems almost baffling that she
wouldn't get more pushback and suspicion here. But maybe she's just not
getting it out loud. While they're not actively confronting her, I
neither hear nor see much acceptance or agreement on anyone's part. That
could be interesting, if it's the right way to read the scene. It fits
into the destabilization we've already seen, if the Scoobies are being
brought to the point where they can't trust her.
---
BUFFY
OK, guys, find me some evidence that he did this.
ANYA
Really? Are you sure that's what you want.
---
ANYA
And you believe him?
[...]
XANDER
Oh, an out of control serial killer. You're right, that is a great
houseguest.
DAWN
Wait, is he—is he staying here?
[...]
WILLOW
Buffy, he's been feeding... on human blood. That's gotta do stuff.
[...]
XANDER
So, you want him around because...?
---
Maybe this, too, fits into FBY's plan as a third way in which Spike can
be used.
> So are we meant to believe Spike's explanation that he's been
> seeking out and flirting with the much younger ladies because of
> missing Buffy? That doesn't seem right, unless FBY was nudging him
> in that direction.
I don't think we can judge any action of Spike's as being
influence-free. It's simply impossible to know with the information
we've been given. I don't find it all that unreasonable even given an
absence of influence, but there's just no way of knowing right now. This
is another way that the bottom-feeding Big Bad's evil works its sinister
will, because everything's uncertain.
> Anya's scenes tend to bother me this week, and it's hard to explain
> exactly why. I didn't really buy the casualness with which the
> others leave her to watch a suspected serial killer, and the way she
> takes it; here the snide comments about that very thing tend to call
> the viewer's attention to the problem rather than defuse it.
I don't know if I buy it either, but consider this: she's already the
target of attempts on her life. Spike might actually help defend her
from those. Or he might be the cause, which at least puts her in no
worse of a situation than before. Plus, I wonder if there isn't a little
bit of that "I deserve to die" thing still lingering from "Selfless."
> But while we're talking about Anya, "if I get vamped, I'm gonna
> bite your ass." "Wouldn't be the first time." The show keeps
> hinting that the two of them were quite experimental while they were
> together, all off-screen.
That's "quite experimental?"
> As far as the chip goes, if Spike can hit someone hard enough to knock
> him out with an easily-endured headache as the only consequence, the
> chip really isn't doing a very good job.
Yeah. That's strange, isn't it? But much more important than that, how
is he killing?
> I think
> from a storytelling perspective, it's outlived its usefulness
Oh, certainly.
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed anyway moment(s):
> - "Man, I hate playing vampire towns"
Want to revisit the "forgettyitis" discussions, hmmm?
NB: note the title of the song that Aimee Mann is singing.
> AOQ rating: Decent
Seems about right.
Scythe Matters
> Plus, Buffy more and more embraces aspects of the Dark Side.
BUFFY: I'm the good guy, remember?
DRACULA: Perhaps, but your power is rooted in darkness. You must feel it.
---
DRACULA: I have searched the world over for you. I have yearned for you.
For a creature whose darkness rivals my own.
---
DRACULA: All those years fighting us. Your power so near to our
own...and you've never once wanted to know what it is that we fight for?
Never even a taste?
---
DRACULA: Find it. The darkness. Find your true nature.
Elisi
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 8: "Sleeper"
> (or "[insert sound of whistling _In The Hall Of The Mountain
> King_]")
One more thing that I'd forgotten. The reveal of the song ties in with
what FBY was saying in 'Lessons', and shows that it's been working on
Spike for a good while:
FBY!Drusilla: "You'll always be mine. You'll always be in the dark with
me, singing our little songs. You like our little songs, don't you?
You've always liked them, right from the beginning."
Those lines btw made a lot of people scratch their heads back when it
first aired. Songs? What songs? When did Dru sing to Spike? Well now we
know...
Ari
Super cheesy dialogue for a super campy episode. I think we're supposed
to mock
this Dracula and all the gobbledygook he spoke, not take him seriously.
I mean come on, he's Fabio with a CAPE!
Wes <>
<rincewi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I don't need to analyse the scene to get the inconsistency: I feel it
>instinctively and it annoys me a lot. It feels wrong. (Yvxr gur gvzryvar bs
>Rzcgl Cynprf / Gbhpurq: vg'f whfg jebat.).
>
>Rincewind.
Me too.
My major complaint about seasons 6 & 7 is actually a lot of minor
complaints. I guess some would call it nitpicky, but they just bother
me.
OTOH, just about everything they show about vampires rising makes no
sense to me. But vampire stories aren't generally notable for being
logical, IMO (probably because their origins are based in
superstition).
If BtVS was JUST a vampire story, a newbie bursting through a flat,
grass-covered grave with a headstone already in place would probably
bother me a lot.
Wes
Don Sample
Captain Infinity <Infi...@captaininfinity.us> wrote:
Yes, but it is most likely an it, rather than a him or a her.
I tend to think of it as female because its most memorable appearances
have been as females.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Further, this brings a whole new perspective to Spike thus far this
> season. Go back to the first seven episodes of this season. How many
> times have we seen Spike allegedly babbling to himself & theoretically
> insane? How many times was he actually conversing with this morphing
> thing? So how insane is he, really? And if he's mostly been conversing
> with this thing that actually exists in some fashion, now that he
> understands that how's he going to feel about it? It's been easiest to
> view his self-flagellating insanity thus far as an extended form of
> misery and guilt post-soul. But what if he's not really at that stage at
> all? What if he's more over it than he's thought, up to this point? Or
> less? It's all very interesting to consider.
I've seen a few people question whether he was really crazy at all.
Well, he certainl seemed quite far gone, especially in "Lessons" and
the other basement scenes. As far back as STSP, where we know that
he's having two conversations at once, we can start to wonder whether
he's just seeing things that no one else does. But in that episode and
others, he's still talking in weird poetics and strange phrases, and
his head's not all there. It would seem like there's always been some
stuff directly addressed to FBYG, and others that're bits of madness,
challenging the viewer to pick apart which is which.
> And now that Buffy knows, what's the state of the plan? From what we
> see, FBY doesn't appear to feel that it matters one bit. That's scary
> confidence.
Either that or dumb-villain sloppiness, as others have suggested. The
later episodes have been given the tools to make it all work, but they
have a substantial job to do.
> > although I wish they'd
> > gone with a more interesting way of recovering his memory afterward
> > than just having vague flashes and talking out loud a lot.
>
> Maybe Bashir and O'Brien can take a walk through each others' minds. :-/
Which for symblic reasons, would both look like the station. (And by
"symbolic" I mean "budgetary.")
> > But while we're talking about Anya, "if I get vamped, I'm gonna
> > bite your ass." "Wouldn't be the first time." The show keeps
> > hinting that the two of them were quite experimental while they were
> > together, all off-screen.
>
> That's "quite experimental?"
It's not the individual action, it's the trend.
WILLOW: You know how it is with a spanking new boyfriend.
ANYA: (offhandedly while stacking her chips) Yes, we've enjoyed
spanking.
- "The I In Team"
Not that this is all that out-there either, but the tone of voice says
"yeah, that's one of the dozens of things we've tried."
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Really? Spike actually asked for help - something he's been unable to
> do for 7 episodes.
"Don't - don't leave me. Stay here, and help me be quiet." - Spike,
"Help"
Not really the same thing, but I couldn't resist pointing it out.
> Very painful, yes, but worth it for "Soulless Spike would have had me
> upside down and halfway to happy land by now!"
That is a good line.
> > As far as the chip goes, if Spike can hit someone hard enough to knock
> > him out with an easily-endured headache as the only consequence, the
> > chip really isn't doing a very good job. (Fanwak: He's had a few
> > years to get used to the pain and develop a bit of tolerance.)
>
> It also shows that the chip _does_ work. So FBY has found a way of
> bypassing it...
Which we also saw in "Help," although in this situation there's no one
else around for whose benefit he might be faking the pain.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Pretty much. This is an episode where I constantly find new things each time
> I watch it. But its not because its deep. The new stuff I find is stuff that
> happened immediately after I got bored the last time I watched and got
> distracted by random reading material, pictures on the wall, fluff on the
> carpet.
Heh. I'm just amused by the way you put that.
-AOQ
Wes <>
znlor abg ng guvf cbvag, bsi, ohg riraghnyyl v qvq naq fgvyy qb.
Scythe Matters
> I've seen a few people question whether he was really crazy at all.
I wasn't questioning that. I was simply noting that a good portion of
what seems crazy (talking to himself) was not (because he was not
talking to himself). And I was arguing that it's plausible that a good
deal of his continuing insanity was due to this situation, which was
being manipulated by FBY. The "wierd poetics and strange phrases" might
not exist if Spike didn't believe he was hallucinating, possibly almost
perpetually. Plus, being driven to kill and repress can't have worked
wonders on his recovery. Who knows where he'd be without this
manipulation? But I would never argue that he wasn't crazy at all.
Certainly he was, at least somewhat.
> Either that or dumb-villain sloppiness, as others have suggested.
Well, it's way too early to judge that. At this stage, we have an
unidentified and selectively visible villain that can make Spike kill
despite both a soul and a chip, that can change appearance at will, that
someone as powerful as d'Hoffryn's afraid of...and (lest we forget) a
quickly rising body count here and abroad. To fight it, we have
(powerless) Dawn, Anya and Xander, an über-witch who's justifiably
afraid to use any power at all, a presumably souled and chipped
ex-vampire who's killing again, can't be trusted not to kill our heroes,
and is nuts anyway, and a Slayer completely on the defensive (or perhaps
more accurately, completely internally-focused) and questioning her very
nature and existence. That's pretty good work.
But yes, it will remain to be seen where we go from here.
>>That's "quite experimental?"
>
> It's not the individual action, it's the trend.
>
> WILLOW: You know how it is with a spanking new boyfriend.
> ANYA: (offhandedly while stacking her chips) Yes, we've enjoyed
> spanking.
> - "The I In Team"
>
> Not that this is all that out-there either, but the tone of voice says
> "yeah, that's one of the dozens of things we've tried."
You forgot bathing. But I don't know. I'm starting to think that either
you or Mrs. Quality needs to get out more.
One Bit Shy
news:1158790351.3...@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
> Scythe Matters wrote:
>
>> Further, this brings a whole new perspective to Spike thus far this
>> season. Go back to the first seven episodes of this season. How many
>> times have we seen Spike allegedly babbling to himself & theoretically
>> insane? How many times was he actually conversing with this morphing
>> thing? So how insane is he, really? And if he's mostly been conversing
>> with this thing that actually exists in some fashion, now that he
>> understands that how's he going to feel about it? It's been easiest to
>> view his self-flagellating insanity thus far as an extended form of
>> misery and guilt post-soul. But what if he's not really at that stage at
>> all? What if he's more over it than he's thought, up to this point? Or
>> less? It's all very interesting to consider.
>
> I've seen a few people question whether he was really crazy at all.
> Well, he certainl seemed quite far gone, especially in "Lessons" and
> the other basement scenes. As far back as STSP, where we know that
> he's having two conversations at once, we can start to wonder whether
> he's just seeing things that no one else does. But in that episode and
> others, he's still talking in weird poetics and strange phrases, and
> his head's not all there. It would seem like there's always been some
> stuff directly addressed to FBYG, and others that're bits of madness,
> challenging the viewer to pick apart which is which.
Personally I think it's clear he was mad as a hatter. Yes, the things he
saw (at least most) weren't his doing. But they were still capable of
making him crazy - along with the stress of his soul being back too.
But what's up in the air is what all is directly from Morphy and what's just
crazy. It's not just that he was seeing things. He's had his memory
suppressed and evidently has some kind of musically triggered bad boy switch
in him. That really confuses the picture. An important part of that
confusion - which I think is one of the things Scythe was pointing at - is
how crazy he still is. Is he worse? Better? Maybe even healed? (Just in
the crazy sense. Obviously he has a lot of coping to do.)
A big part of this episode is what lucid Spike does. He's responsible for
solving most of the mystery.
OBS
Michael Ikeda
news:eeqohb$td4$1...@emma.aioe.org:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1158727861....@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
>>review
>> threads.
> Agree about the logic of leaving the suspect serial killer of
> young women to be guarded by a solitary young woman, but the
> scene itself works for me. It's pure Anya, badly faking being
> hurt when her badly faked seduction attempt fails.
>
I'm don't think she's entirely faking feeling hurt. It isn't that
she really wanted to have sex with Spike, but I think she's a bit
miffed that he wasn't at least a little tempted to accept her offer.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Ken from Chicago
Spike prolly feels he deserves the pain, as penance.
-- Ken from Chicago
Stephen Tempest
>Yes, but it is most likely an it, rather than a him or a her.
I tend to think of It as an It, complete with Capital Letter. (When I
can remember, anyway...)
Nygubhtu ol gur raq bs gur frnfba, Gur Svefg jnf fcraqvat fb zhpu gvzr
qerffrq nf Ohssl gung Vg frrzrq gb or gnxvat ba ure znaarevfzf naq
gubhtug cnggreaf...
Stephen
One Bit Shy
news:1158727861....@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 8: "Sleeper"
Just as I was finishing my post to you (an absolutely brilliant one I must
say - the best thing I've ever written in my lifetime - and my past lives
for that matter), my system crashed. (Which is not common.) And I lost
everything. Aaaaargh!
So you get the second version. Not quite so brilliant. And this time I'm
not going to try to figure out again how to fit it in to your post as
response segments.
------------
About the show in general. I agree with you on much of the problems with
the episode and where they occur, though I think it's more a problem with
periodically weak dialog than pacing or concept. (The ideas of this story -
broadly and in detail - are mostly excellent IMO.) The Anya scene really
doesn't work right, for example, though I sense that it really should have.
It really would be a problem providing 24 hour coverage for Spike. Anya
really does make sense as someone to fill in. (How many options do they
have? Willow? Dawn?) And Anya suggesting that they ought to search
Spike's room for clues is perfectly logical - even if she does get it all
Anya distorted with talk of kill trophies. And it makes sense that
curiosity (plus the urge to prove that she's right) would get the better of
her and make her search on her own. Even the idea of sex as an excuse could
work. (I do like Spike's initial physical reaction to the offer and the
part after he declines and Anya gets offended.) But mostly it feels off.
And just to cap it, after making the big deal of letting in all the sunlight
and getting Anya to sit "safely" in it, they leave her there until after
dark, making the whole effort pointless. Is that dumb or what?
There's a lot like that in the episode. Having Willow be the one to find
Dawn after CWDP makes a lot of sense - there are a lot in common between
their experiences - a lot that Willow could help Dawn with that nobody else
could. Yet, to me, the emotional resonance is nowhere on par with its
import. The idea of Spike discovering the truth of what he's done by
encountering a vamp he didn't know he sired is quite good. But I hate the
dialog. (With the exception of the reasonably clever, "I'm not asking if
you wanna be soul mates.") Fortunately the fight woven into the song makes
up for a lot. Good music. Nice effect of interrupting it with the vampire
falling onto the stage and dusting.
(Which also sets up the nice line, "Man, I hate playing vampire towns."
Aside from its natural humor, I get a kick out of how it comes at the whole
forgettyitis thing from a new direction. Here, not only do people really
know what's going on, but it's also somewhat common knowledge to
out-of-towners, and not limited to Sunnydale. Perhaps the real answer to
the issue is that people don't respond to what's going on because they're
used to it. I figure most every family in town has some kind of contact
with Sunnydale's underworld that they don't want to talk about. Business
dealings with a demon. A cousin who's a witch. An uncle who's a vampire.
Something.)
There is some very sharp dialog in the episode - Buffy's confrontation with
Spike when she demands to know if he killed the girl especially stands out.
But, alas, there's more that I think is weak.
I don't actually know anything about what went into making this episode.
(The listed writers are certainly competent.) But I sense that the stress
of too much going on at M.E. is catching up with them here. They may have
pulled a rabbit out of the hat with CWDP, but this episode strikes me as
very unrefined. It needed a heck of a lot more fine tuning.
Still, the ideas really draw me into it. And some of the scenes work
exceptionally well. One that I seem to disagree with you on is the street
scene. There's a Hitchcockian feel to it to me. I like the feeling of
spying on Spike and then Buffy losing control of the situation as she loses
Spike. The tiny glimpses of Spike's face or hair in the chaos - too
fleeting to be able to react to. The earlier mood change as the music comes
into play and Spike changes from stroller to stalker as he strides. How
Buffy walks right past the same music. Will she be affected too? Buffy
desperately seeking Spike - breaking into a run - and then appearing in the
alley, provoking Spike to his dirty deed. The confusion of identity then is
fantastic.
This brings me back to my first impressions upon airing. At that time I
understood very little about all the illusory people showing up and imagined
all sorts of crazy things. Here's one for you - an example of how some of
this could play to somebody who doesn't know what's going on - and where
some of the tension could come from. Back in the season opener, when all
the Big Bads morphed in front of Spike - the final shot of Buffy was not a
morph. (A couple of the Big Bads didn't visibly morph either, but there was
a morph sound effect with them. There was no such sound effect for Buffy.)
Then there's the confusing double Buffy scene in Helpless, when we're not
certain how to take who's real - where the supposed real Buffy acts almost
evil, while the supposed fake Buffy is the caring one. And Buffy doesn't
get a vision in CWDP - just a real vampire. So, when Buffy walks into the
alley here - dressed just like the searching Buffy we saw moments earlier -
I was not at all certain she was fake. Including when she spoke. One of
the ideas I was entertaining was that somehow Buffy had gone bad - a kind of
red kryptonite moment if you will - and that she was responsible for what
Spike was doing.
Obviously I was disabused of that notion pretty forcefully when Buffy
morphed into Spike. (One reason for fake-Spike being in the episode.) I
feel a little silly about it now, but most people never had the benefit of
news group discussions to work all this stuff out. So the settling of
issues here - and the consequent opening of new doors somewhat better
defined - had a stronger dramatic effect on a lot of people than may be
obvious to those that already had worked out much of what was going on.
The From Beneath You aspect of the story is pretty good and pretty
important, but the aspect of the story that really gets me - and what I
think the episode is actually mostly about - is the continuation of Spike's
soul quest story. There's some pretty powerful stuff in here related to
that which I'll get to in a sec. But the net effect for me is that, in
spite of clear problems in this episode's production, it has far too big an
impact on me to leave with a modest rating. More of an impact than CWDP for
me. So this is getting a Good rating from me. (The problems do prevent an
Excellent rating.)
-------------
Why fake-Spike. You're right that his lines, though sometimes informative,
aren't terribly exciting, nor particularly related to being fake-Spike.
It's one of the dialog problems in the episode IMO.
But the idea of fake-Spike is spot on. Our Big Bad is essentially throwing
Spike's old self in his face. Showing him a confident, bad boy, lusting for
(un)life former self as contrast to the pathetic whimpering thing he's
become. Remember the morphed Master's words: "You'll learn you're a
pathetic schmuck, if it hasn't sunk in already. Look at you. Trying to do
what's right, just like her."
The depiction is paired with fake-Buffy - like a tag team.
Buffy: You know you want it. You know I want you to... There's my guy.
Fake-Buffy isn't just seducing Spike into killing the girl. She's telling
Spike that it was evil Spike she wanted all along. That it's the new souled
Spike that isn't worthy of her. And here's the bad boy Spike to remind him
of what she really wants.
Our Big Bad is sending a very specific message. Spike screwed up when he
got his soul. He never should have done it, and now has lost everything by
choosing wrong.
He/she/it is striking at Spike's weak point - much as it did with Willow.
(And maybe Dawn.) But just as with Willow, Spike proves to be made of
sterner stuff than expected. Part of the story this episode is watching
Spike's souled self win out. Though it's already episode 8, only now do we
begin to see the real changes in him and a sane souled Spike start to shine
through. There are a number of nuances in his various conversations with
Buffy, but the telling point for this is when Spike realizes the truth.
(Which he sought out on his own, mind you.) He doesn't run from it. He
doesn't try to hide it. He immediately confesses to Buffy and trusts her to
do the right thing. (All of this progression has a powerful effect upon
Buffy, but that's a story itself.)
Eventually - with our From Beneath You villain applying his mojo in full
force - Spike tastes Buffy's blood, which somehow breaks the spell
(interesting that), at least for the moment. All the memories rush in. And
he can't continue the evil game, though fake-Spike is still right there.
Soon enough he willingly offers his life to Buffy - he's sure he deserves to
die. Then, when Buffy explains that something's playing with him - playing
with them all - and he realizes that it's not all coming from within
himself - then he asks for help. The help he refused to ask for in Beneath
You because he didn't deserve it. Yes, he's more desperate now. But this
is more than desperation. He's breaking through the notion given to him
that he's not worthy of Buffy's care.
And Buffy comes through.
Hell, I cry a little just writing that line. So, no, I don't agree with you
about his request for help being surface level.
-------------
I think the center of the episode is found in the scene when Buffy confronts
Spike, demanding that he tell her if he killed the girl. Most especially
this line.
Spike: This chip-they did to me. I couldn't help it. But the soul, I got on
my own-for you.
There are three elements to this line.
First is that the soul is now more important than the chip. Which you
properly remarked on. (As for possible future use of the chip, I'll leave
that to future episodes.)
Second is that he got the soul for Buffy. Old news.
Third - what I think is the particularly big deal - is that he got it on his
own.
Back in the S6 discussion/argument about why Spike went after the soul and
what the chip had to do with it, there's one thing I didn't notice being
brought up. I know I didn't. I was exploring something different. But
part of the soul quest was an expression of free will. He was seeking to
free himself from the binds of the chip. Simple freedom.
When he raged about how the chip wouldn't let him be a monster, he was also
saying that it wouldn't let him be his own man. The best thing about being
a vampire to Spike was how it liberated him. But he had become enslaved.
Remember the talk of how chipped Spike was like a serial killer in prison?
Or Adam describing him as smothered, trapped like an animal?
The issue wasn't just what kind of person Spike wanted to be. The greater
desire was for Spike to be his own man.
That's an awful lot of what the Seeing Red epiphany is about, IMO. Getting
a soul is how he can rebel against the chip, how he can make the chip
irrelevant - just as you noted and Spike gets all huffy about in this scene.
And the doing of it represents his first great act of self will in close to
three years. He got it on his own.
Now he's gone loopy, and being manipulated by an outside party to boot.
Hardly what he had in mind. But he doesn't let go of it. He got it on his
own. And so he chooses to figure out what's going on. And he chooses to go
to Buffy with what he found even though it's bad news for him. Without
hesitation. Urgently even.
Buffy sees all this play out in front of her. Spike fighting through his
madness with an inner quality that pretty much bowls her over, though it
remains hard to get a full handle on. (Can he even be pulled out of this
mess?) She sees him respond to her devious questioning of him in the first
act by treating it as Buffy making an effort to be nice to her, so he tries
to respond in kind. She sees the passion in his feelings about getting the
soul. Doing it for her - he couldn't possibly be after another girl. Doing
it on his own. She sees him solve the mystery for her and hand himself to
her on a silver platter. (And she sees him being used by something too -
turned into what she's coming to realize is not his doing.) She sees him
offer his life to her - righteously. And she sees his plea for help.
Though it remains hard to put it all together, this clearly is not the Spike
she knew. And what she sees has to touch her. There's a man in there
that's worthy. And what with him making this change for her and with her
existing guilt about treating him badly in S6, she just has to come through
for him and help. Not a choice.
Later she tells the Scoobies that she's not keeping him around just to help
him. Which is true. There are other reasons. But what she doesn't tell
them is that it's still reason enough.
OBS
One Bit Shy
news:_ZGdnQjXE7cDW4zY...@rcn.net...
> "Apteryx" <apt...@xtra.co.nz> wrote in
> news:eeqohb$td4$1...@emma.aioe.org:
>
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1158727861....@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>>>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
>>>review
>>> threads.
>
>> Agree about the logic of leaving the suspect serial killer of
>> young women to be guarded by a solitary young woman, but the
>> scene itself works for me. It's pure Anya, badly faking being
>> hurt when her badly faked seduction attempt fails.
>>
>
> I'm don't think she's entirely faking feeling hurt. It isn't that
> she really wanted to have sex with Spike, but I think she's a bit
> miffed that he wasn't at least a little tempted to accept her offer.
Anya doesn't like rejection. It's kind of a thing with her. So, yeah, I
agree that she was genuinely miffed.
OBS
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> Scythe Matters wrote:
>
> > Further, this brings a whole new perspective to Spike thus far this
> > season. Go back to the first seven episodes of this season. How many
> > times have we seen Spike allegedly babbling to himself & theoretically
> > insane? How many times was he actually conversing with this morphing
> > thing? So how insane is he, really? And if he's mostly been conversing
> > with this thing that actually exists in some fashion, now that he
> > understands that how's he going to feel about it? It's been easiest to
> > view his self-flagellating insanity thus far as an extended form of
> > misery and guilt post-soul. But what if he's not really at that stage at
> > all? What if he's more over it than he's thought, up to this point? Or
> > less? It's all very interesting to consider.
>
> I've seen a few people question whether he was really crazy at all.
> Well, he certainl seemed quite far gone, especially in "Lessons" and
> the other basement scenes. As far back as STSP, where we know that
> he's having two conversations at once, we can start to wonder whether
> he's just seeing things that no one else does. But in that episode and
> others, he's still talking in weird poetics and strange phrases, and
> his head's not all there. It would seem like there's always been some
> stuff directly addressed to FBYG, and others that're bits of madness,
> challenging the viewer to pick apart which is which.
I think he's probably suffering from a Dissociative Identity Disorder,
created by FBYG. He isn't aware of some of the things that he's doing.
Some of the things that he's talking to might be genuine hallucinations.
Don Sample
Scythe Matters <sp...@spam.spam> wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> > I've seen a few people question whether he was really crazy at all.
>
> I wasn't questioning that. I was simply noting that a good portion of
> what seems crazy (talking to himself) was not (because he was not
> talking to himself). And I was arguing that it's plausible that a good
> deal of his continuing insanity was due to this situation, which was
> being manipulated by FBY. The "wierd poetics and strange phrases" might
> not exist if Spike didn't believe he was hallucinating, possibly almost
> perpetually. Plus, being driven to kill and repress can't have worked
> wonders on his recovery. Who knows where he'd be without this
> manipulation? But I would never argue that he wasn't crazy at all.
> Certainly he was, at least somewhat.
Yes. Driven crazy is still crazy.
Mel
Captain Infinity wrote:
> Once Upon A Time Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>
>>Early on Spike is induced to kill again by From Beneath You Guy taking
>>the form of Buffy, in one of the more intense moments of the episode.
>
>
> Interesting. My mental picture of From Beneath You Guy has always been
> as From Beneath You Gal. Anyone else?
>
>
> **
> Captain Infinity
Mine too. Probably because of appearing as Buffy (naq Wraal) so much. I
was quite surprised to see FBYG referred to as "he" in the dvd set.
Mel
Mel
Rowan Hawthorn wrote:
> Rincewind wrote:
>
>> "Wes <>" <swap...@atomic.net> wrote:
>>
>>> <rincewi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Until now the show has consistently told us that a newly sired
>>>> vampire rises
>>>
>>> >from his grave the first night after the human has been killed.
>>>
>>> I've thought they've been very inconsistant with this, unless they do
>>> things differently in California than in North Carolina - which is
>>> definately a possibility. Sometimes in the graveyard, sometimes in the
>>> funeral home, sometimes in the morgue. It seems like 1 or 2 even rose
>>> where they fell after only a few minutes have passed. I've never seen
>>> a logical pattern to it.
>>
>>
>>
>> Also, what's the point of Buffy going to the morgue or to specific
>> graves to wait for the vampire to rise if she doesn't know how many
>> days it will take?
>>
>> Rincewind.
>
>
> We've seen people rise from the morgue, the funeral home, their graves,
> and their place of death. Since people are rarely if ever buried the
> same day they die (in the US, at any rate,) that in itself should be a
> tip-off that there's no real consistency to the time it takes for them
> to rise.
>
Heh, I just made a similar comment in the "Replacement Slayer" thread.
GMTA.
Mel
Mel
One Bit Shy wrote:
Whfg ybbx ng gur rssrpg gur nccnevgvbaf nccrnevat gb Natry unq va
Nzraqf. Ur jnf ernql gb cbbs uvzfrys!
Mel
Apteryx
> news:eeqohb$td4$1...@emma.aioe.org:
>
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1158727861....@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>>>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
>>>review
>>> threads.
>
>> Agree about the logic of leaving the suspect serial killer of
>> young women to be guarded by a solitary young woman, but the
>> scene itself works for me. It's pure Anya, badly faking being
>> hurt when her badly faked seduction attempt fails.
>>
>
> I'm don't think she's entirely faking feeling hurt. It isn't that
> she really wanted to have sex with Spike, but I think she's a bit
> miffed that he wasn't at least a little tempted to accept her offer.
I guess she acts herself into being miffed. But it's not real. Her annoyance
disappears as soon as Spike does, and that's not usual for her if she was
genuinely hurt.
--
Apteryx
(Harmony) Watcher
"Stephen Tempest" <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:16p3h2tgtiiekqhbu...@4ax.com...
Naq V inthryl erzrzore gung vg unf fbzr fbeg bs zbhgu cnegf nf htyl nf gubfr
ba n Cerqngbe (gubfr htyl nyvraf nezrq jvgu cbegnoyr gurezbahpyrne qrivprf).
--
==Harmony Watcher==
(Harmony) Watcher
<chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu> wrote in message
news:12h2tvc...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> I tried to post earlier but apparently hit the wrong key. Apologies if
> this turns out to be a duplicate.
>
> Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> > A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > threads.
>
> >
> > Season Seven, Episode 8: "Sleeper"
> > King_]")
> > Director: Alan J. Levi
>
> .
> > <snip>
> >
> > Anya's scenes tend to bother me this week, and it's hard to explain
> > exactly why. I didn't really buy the casualness with which the
> > others leave her to watch a suspected serial killer, and the way she
> > takes it; here the snide comments about that very thing tend to call
> > attempt to get kinky with William is rather painful to watch - it's
> > like a scene laden with discomfort that the show hasn't, through
> > plotting, earned the right to inflict it on the viewer. If that even
> > makes any sense.
>
> I enjoyed the humor here more than you did, but the beginning of that
> scene didn't make sense to me. Why would Anya suspect that a killer Spike
> would be keeping trophies from his victims? He never did that before,
> with the sole exception of the New York Slayer's coat. Anya is taking the
> vampire-serial killer analogy way too seriously. But I guess the writers
> couldn't think of any better way of getting Anya into Spike's bedcloset.
>
Pna fbzrobql erzvaq zr jura rknpgyl jr xabj sbe fher gung Fcvxr'f "frpbaq
fxva" jnf erzbirq sebz Avxxv Jbbq'f qrnq obql?
<rest snipped>
--
==Harmony Watcher==
lili...@gmail.com
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 8: "Sleeper"
> (or "[insert sound of whistling _In The Hall Of The Mountain
> King_]")
> Writers: David Fury and Jane Espenson
> Director: Alan J. Levi
>
> recapping the events of the previous episode to each other and thinking
> about them. The end-of-act-one fadeout made me wonder if anything had
> in fact happened other than recapping the events of the previous
> with lots of thrilling slow pans of people weaving through crowds for
> extended lengths of time (does downtown Sunnydale often get so
> packed?). I jest and mock a little, but it does strike me as a fairly
> slow-moving episode except for the end, more so than it needs to be.
>
> Early on Spike is induced to kill again by From Beneath You Guy taking
> the form of Buffy, in one of the more intense moments of the episode.
> and "Selfless" in particular, appearing as her seems to be the most
> effective way to keep Spike thoroughly confused, so one wonders why
> most of FBYG's appearances this episode are as Spike. Its propaganda
> doesn't go much beyond "she'll kill you," and of course humming
> that tune. And the "can you help me?" closing B/S scene seems to
> stick mostly to the surface level. All things considered,
> disappointingly bland stuff.
>
> encounter between Spike and a recent siree is one of them, as they both
> gradually piece together what's going on, although I wish they'd
> gone with a more interesting way of recovering his memory afterward
> of him calling her cell, frantically looking for help and a chance to
> tell someone what he's discovered, is a nice one. The biggest
> highlight is the action setpiece with the rising vampires and Spike in
> vamp-face launching his sudden attack on our hero. His reaction after
> he snaps out of it is played well (somewhat reminiscent of the worm
> scene in BY), as is Buffy getting a sense of what's going on and
> kinda getting him out of the way before doing the killing, quickly
> going down the line of vampires: poke, poke, stab.
>
> "The Big Bad made him do it, he had no control" feels slightly
> cheap as a resolution to the cliffhanger ending of CWDP, but I can't
> complain too fervently given that the adequacy of the setup for this
> revelation can't be denied.
>
> Characters tend not to jump to conclusions about what they've learned
> from their Conversations. Take Dawn; okay, so maybe she's going to
> want to keep what she's learned/"learned" to herself. But she
> seems open to both the possibility of real and false messages; wanting
> to believe one thing and being afraid of the other translates here into
> sitting on it and thinking for awhile. On a more immediate note,
> there's Spike to deal with, and Buffy refuses to take her late
> nemesis's words about Peroxide Boy as uncontested truth, but
> doesn't jump on Willow's story as an excuse to ignore Holden
> either. She might have done that were her feelings for Spike unduly
> clouding her judgment, a natural fear. Instead, we get "... and, if
> it is an act, then the Oscar goes to..." And he's certainly
> convincing, for reasons that of course become obvious, when showing no
> reaction to Holden's name, and also when talking about how the
> memories of his past are affecting him - not something he's spoken
> about much before.
>
> Some might question our Slayer's judgment in waiting to be sure as
> the apparent evidence, and bodies, mount up. But she turns out to be
> right that Spoik isn't lying about what's going on. The end of the
> episode has her decide to keep him around despite the danger as a way
> of figuring out what's happening. Throughout the episode, even
> disapprovers like Xander resist the urge to fly off the handle about
> it, hoping that they can trust Buffy on the decisions with regard to
> how to fight evil, granted that it's worked okay before.
>
> seeking out and flirting with the much younger ladies because of
> missing Buffy? That doesn't seem right, unless FBY was nudging him
> in that direction.
>
> exactly why. I didn't really buy the casualness with which the
> others leave her to watch a suspected serial killer, and the way she
> takes it; here the snide comments about that very thing tend to call
> the viewer's attention to the problem rather than defuse it. And her
> attempt to get kinky with William is rather painful to watch - it's
> like a scene laden with discomfort that the show hasn't, through
> plotting, earned the right to inflict it on the viewer. If that even
> makes any sense.
>
> bite your ass." "Wouldn't be the first time." The show keeps
> hinting that the two of them were quite experimental while they were
> together, all off-screen.
>
> him out with an easily-endured headache as the only consequence, the
> chip really isn't doing a very good job. (Fanwak: He's had a few
> years to get used to the pain and develop a bit of tolerance.) I think
> from a storytelling perspective, it's outlived its usefulness -
> Spike even directly says that the soul is a far more important
> deterrent for him. Unless there are plans I haven't predicted, it
> might've been wiser to come up with a mumbo-jumbo explanation to make
> Soul!Spike immune to the wiring.
>
> writers are not nice people. Having someone raise a weapon just as the
> screen goes black is actually an old enough trick that I'm surprised
> the show hasn't had occasion to use it before. Well, since Giles
> hasn't been seen since (I think) "Beneath You," the thrill of his
> appearance makes the suspense moment work better than it would
> otherwise. Otherwise, EVS, we'll see what happens.
>
> According to the transcript, Aimee Mann is the performer at the Bronze.
> She's like mildly famous and stuff.
>
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed anyway moment(s):
>
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Adequate.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
>
> [Season Seven so far:
> 1) "Lessons" - Good
> 2) "Beneath You" - Decent
> 3) "Same Time, Same Place" - Excellent
> 4) "Help" - Good
> 5) "Selfless" - SUPERLATIVE
> 6) "Him" - Bad
> 7) "Conversations With Dead People" - Good
> 8) "Sleeper" - Decent]
This probably won't surprise you, but I tend to rate this episode on
the high rate of good, in fact, I think it's a lot better than CWDP
which I find overrated. Xander's actually likeable in this ep and every
single Spike and Spike and Buffy scene is excellent as usual. The
Anya/Spike scene is not just funny, but it's intentionally
uncomfortable and is played as such.
Lore
lili...@gmail.com
Apteryx schreef:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1158727861....@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
> >A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > threads.
> >
> >
> > Anya's scenes tend to bother me this week, and it's hard to explain
> > exactly why. I didn't really buy the casualness with which the
> > others leave her to watch a suspected serial killer, and the way she
> > takes it; here the snide comments about that very thing tend to call
> > the viewer's attention to the problem rather than defuse it. And her
> > attempt to get kinky with William is rather painful to watch - it's
> > like a scene laden with discomfort that the show hasn't, through
> > plotting, earned the right to inflict it on the viewer. If that even
> > makes any sense.
>
> Agree about the logic of leaving the suspect serial killer of young women to
> be guarded by a solitary young woman, but the scene itself works for me.
> It's pure Anya, badly faking being hurt when her badly faked seduction
> attempt fails.
>
>
> > As far as the chip goes, if Spike can hit someone hard enough to knock
> > him out with an easily-endured headache as the only consequence, the
> > chip really isn't doing a very good job. (Fanwak: He's had a few
> > years to get used to the pain and develop a bit of tolerance.) I think
> > from a storytelling perspective, it's outlived its usefulness -
> > Spike even directly says that the soul is a far more important
> > deterrent for him. Unless there are plans I haven't predicted, it
> > might've been wiser to come up with a mumbo-jumbo explanation to make
> > Soul!Spike immune to the wiring.
>
> He doesn't seem to be immune so much as less affected by it. But the
> warranty on that chip must have expired by now.
>
>
> > Nothing to say about that ending with Giles, except to say that the
> > writers are not nice people. Having someone raise a weapon just as the
> > screen goes black is actually an old enough trick that I'm surprised
> > the show hasn't had occasion to use it before. Well, since Giles
> > hasn't been seen since (I think) "Beneath You," the thrill of his
> > appearance makes the suspense moment work better than it would
> > otherwise. Otherwise, EVS, we'll see what happens.
>
> IF Giles survives, then this will have been a cliff-hanger worthy of 1930's
> Lone Ranger "shorts" - the ones where you see the Lone Ranger clearly fall 6
> feet below the bush growing on the cliff-face, and then next week find him
> clinging to that bush.
>
> >
> > One-sentence summary: Adequate.
> >
> > AOQ rating: Decent
>
> Pretty much. This is an episode where I constantly find new things each time
> I watch it. But its not because its deep. The new stuff I find is stuff that
> happened immediately after I got bored the last time I watched and got
> distracted by random reading material, pictures on the wall, fluff on the
> carpet. I've never been able to watch it through in one go paying strict
> attention to everything that happens, and although it has some good stuff,
> it doesn't hang together for me. Its my 97th favourite BtVS episode, 12th
> best in season 7
>
>
> --
> Apteryx
Va nyy ubarfgl, frrvat ubj gurl hfrq Tvyrf nsgre guvf rc, V jvfu gurl
unq xvyyrq uvz bss. Gung jnl gur snxr bss jvgu uvz orvat gur Svefg
pbhyq unir orra erny. Fher vg jbhyq unir uheg gb ybfr Tvyrf, ohg gb zr
vg jbhyq unir znqr gur fgbel orggre.
Lore
Elisi
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Elisi wrote:
>
> > Really? Spike actually asked for help - something he's been unable to
> > do for 7 episodes.
>
> "Don't - don't leave me. Stay here, and help me be quiet." - Spike,
> "Help"
>
> Not really the same thing, but I couldn't resist pointing it out.
Ah yes, I do remeber that bit. What I was thinking of specifically was
the bit with Friendly!Buffy from 'Selfless':
BUFFY: (compassionate and patient) Spike.
SPIKE: I'm in trouble, Buffy.
BUFFY: I can help you.
SPIKE: I could never ask. Not after...
BUFFY: It's different. You're different.
SPIKE: I could never ask.
BUFFY: Spike, it's me. It's you and it's me, and we'll get through
this.
SPIKE: Never...
It's a different sort of help he's asking for (in 'Sleeper'), if you
get what I mean. Not just a couple of minutes 'to help him be quiet',
but help with whatever it is that's using him/getting him in trouble. A
much bigger effort and investment, that he doesn't think he deserves.
Ladyluck
Elisi wrote:
>
> I think the girls probably sought him out ("the girls like Billy Idol")
> and things progressed from there... (Also adored "Actually Billy Idol
> stole his look from-")
>
I have a funny story about this...
At work, my computer wallpaper is a pic of James Marsters as Spike.
A new co-worker, who was unaware that I was a Buffy fan, looked at my
screen and said "That guy looks familiar. Is that Billy Idol?" at which
point me and my other co-worker, who also happens to be a Buffy fan,
cracked up for a good minute.
We tried to explain what was so funny about the comment but of course
it didn't translate. Now we're weirdos to him... LOL
--Ladyluck
Sig: I may be Whedon's bitch but at least I'm fan enough to admit it!
Rincewind
>
> Va nyy ubarfgl, frrvat ubj gurl hfrq Tvyrf nsgre guvf rc, V jvfu gurl
> unq xvyyrq uvz bss. Gung jnl gur snxr bss jvgu uvz orvat gur Svefg
> pbhyq unir orra erny. Fher vg jbhyq unir uheg gb ybfr Tvyrf, ohg gb zr
> vg jbhyq unir znqr gur fgbel orggre.
V gbgnyyl nterr.
Tvyrf' genafsbezngvba vagb gur urnegyrff zbafgre gurl tnir hf va frnfba 7
uhegf zber guna vg jbhyq unir uheg vs gurl unq whfg xvyyrq uvz.
Rincewind.
--
What I have learned from Buffy:
If a show is good enough for long enough, I will sit through any crap that
it spews at me in the final seasons.
Rincewind
>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Seven, Episode 8: "Sleeper"
>
I usually think that you see too much depth in not so deep episodes, but
this time your analysis actually heightens my appreciacion of this episode a
little bit.
It's still a very flawed episode but maybe next time I rewatch it I will
like it a little more.
Rincewind.
--
Lines you'll never hear on Buffy:
BUFFY: So what if he has a soul? He's still got really bad hair.
ravimotha
Scythe Matters wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>
> not the "A" plan. (What is? Perhaps more of the destablization we've
> already seen, as this makes Spike both extremely dangerous and useless
> to our gang. Or perhaps there's more to it.)
> >
It's in many ways a test to see what can be done with this controllable
spike, by destablising him, he becomes more malleable, by making him
more malleable the FBY creates another tool, plus Spike is in Close
with Buffy at this point, the FBY has a perfect sleeper agent.
this I think also shows the scope , we know and have had hints at the
longevity of this adversary, so it would make sense that playing spike
isboth a method for destabilising the group (as in the Yoko Factor),
and putting another gampice on the board.
Buffy and the gang have a real issue, in that they don't know the game,
and they have never really faced an adversary who isn't as diverse in
the methods of attacks.
The closest we got to the this was Glory and her Minions , or The Mayor
, with Mr Trick.
So this is a new challenge for them to face
regards
Ravi
Steve Schaffner
> "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Rincewind wrote:
> >> But there still is a problem: at the beginning of this episode Spike
> >> buries
> >> the nameless blonde girl form CWDP in the basement of the same house
> >> where
> >> he will bury the others (it's explicitly told in the script), so I assume
> >> the owner of the house is already dead. The script also tells that the
> >> last
> >> vampire to rise from the basement is the former owner of the house, so
> >> she
> >> must have been buried for two days.
> >
> > Hm..... maybe she was stuck the whole time? *g*
> >
> > And it's at this point that being obsessive gives me a headache.
>
> I understand... I am not always so fixated on small details, but somehow
> there are some kinds of mistakes that for me stand out more than others and
> ruin the pleasure of watching the show.
>
> For instance I always HATED the fact that action movies ALWAYS get the time
> of timer activated bombs wrong: you always see the timer counting down from
> 10 to 5 secs and then it takes half a minute of screen time before the
> explosion.
E.g. the bomb in The Zeppo.
--
Steve Schaffner s...@broad.mit.edu
Immediate assurance is an excellent sign of probable lack of
insight into the topic. Josiah Royce
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"ravimotha" <ravi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Scythe Matters wrote:
> > Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> >
> >
> > Does FBY want Spike dead? It doesn't appear to care, but clearly that's
> > not the "A" plan. (What is? Perhaps more of the destablization we've
> > already seen, as this makes Spike both extremely dangerous and useless
> > to our gang. Or perhaps there's more to it.)
> > >
>
>
> It's in many ways a test to see what can be done with this controllable
> spike, by destablising him, he becomes more malleable, by making him
> more malleable the FBY creates another tool, plus Spike is in Close
> with Buffy at this point, the FBY has a perfect sleeper agent.
the basement wasnt intended a vampire minefield
at least not that night
svefgrivy was complaining that spike was remembering too soon
Rowan Hawthorn
"Sbby Sbe Ybir" fubjrq Fcvxr gnxr gur pbng sebz gur Fynlre va Arj Lbex.
"Yvrf Zl Cneragf Gbyq Zr" synfurf onpx gb gung gvzr naq vqragvsvrf ure
nf Avxxv Jbbq (naq ol gung gvzr, jr nyernql xabj gung Jbbq'f zbgure jnf
n Fynlre.)
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
bookworm
> <lili...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Va nyy ubarfgl, frrvat ubj gurl hfrq Tvyrf nsgre guvf rc, V jvfu gurl
>> unq xvyyrq uvz bss. Gung jnl gur snxr bss jvgu uvz orvat gur Svefg
>> pbhyq unir orra erny. Fher vg jbhyq unir uheg gb ybfr Tvyrf, ohg gb zr
>> vg jbhyq unir znqr gur fgbel orggre.
>
> V gbgnyyl nterr.
> Tvyrf' genafsbezngvba vagb gur urnegyrff zbafgre gurl tnir hf va frnfba 7
> uhegf zber guna vg jbhyq unir uheg vs gurl unq whfg xvyyrq uvz.
>
> Rincewind.
V guvax V'z gur bayl bar jub pynvzf gb haqrefgnaq, jung gurl qvq jvgu
Tvyrf va f.7. VZB gur zvfyrnq jnf dhvgr qhyy, V qvqa'g yvxr vg gur svefg
gvzr nebhaq. Ohg vg'f Tvyrf, jub fnlf va Yrffbaf, gung va gur raq jr ner
jub jr ner, ab znggre ubj zhpu jr nccrne gb unir punatrq. Naq va f.1 gb
3 ur jnf n fghpx-hc gvtug-nff jvgu ab frafr bs sha, naq va fvghngvba bs
vzzvarag crevy ur nyjnlf unq ybfg uvf jvg. gung ur jnf jebat nobhg
Fcvxr, jryy, gung'f qver.
bookworm
lili...@gmail.com
bookworm schreef:
Npghnyyl, V qba'g fb zhpu zvaq, jryy... x, V qb ungr vg, ohg V pna
haqrefgnaq uvf nggrzcg gb zheqre Fcvxr fbzrjung. Vg'f uvf gerngzrag bs
Ohssl gung V unir n zhpu ynetre ceboyrz jvgu.
Vg'f onq rabhtu gung Tvyrf fubjf ab vagrerfg jungfbrire va Fcvxr'f
pubvpr gb ertnva uvf fbhy. Rfcrpvnyyl nf gurl ner svtugvat gur Svefg
Rivy, juvpu fubhyq tvir uvz zber guna cyragl bs ernfbaf gb pner...
(fbeel, ohg V pna'g uryc frrvat gur pbaarpgvba orgjrra n inzcver'f
pubvpr gb trg n fbhy naq gur Svefg fhqqrayl er-nccrnevat)
Ohg gur jnl ur gevrf gb sbepr Ohssl vagb orpbzvat n trareny naq gura
jura fur qbrf jung ur jnagf, fgnegf gb qrevqr ure ... gung'f whfg abg
Tvyrf.
V xabj ur'f haqre fgerff naq nyy gung, ohg ur whfg qbrfa'g srry yvxr
gur erny Tvyrf. Naq gura bs pbhefr Jurqba znqr uvz rira jbefr va f5 bs
Natry ol gheavat uvz vagb n onfgneq jub jbhyqa'g rira uryc Natry gb
fnir Serq.
(Abg gung V rire jnagrq gb frr Jvyybj ntnva, ohg fgvyy.. gurl pbhyq
unir znqr Tvyrf ybbx yrff onq)
Lore
bookworm
V qba'g xabj. Tvyrf nyjnlf jnf gur xvaq bs thl jub jnagrq gb xvyy
fbzrbar sbe gur terngre tbbq (F3 Natry, F5 Qnja naq Ora, F7 Fcvxr), sbe
zr vg'f abguvat arj, naq gur gerngzrag bs Ohssl erzvaqrq zr n ybg bs F1
naq 2, nf V fnvq, bayl gung gerngvat ure nf n eryhpgnag puvyq jub
qbrfa'g xabj gur cbvagl raq bs gur fgvpx (be gur fnpevsvprf nf n Pubfra
Bar) qvqa'g qb nal tbbq.
Ohg gb or gur svefg jub qbrfa'g gehfg ure, gb or gur svefg jub snyyf bhg
bs yvar, uhegf dhvgr n ybg.
Naq nobhg gur NgF F5 guvat: V pbafvqrerq guvf n pbzzba
"Ohsslpnzc-nccebnpu" gb abg uryc uvz nf ybat ur jnf va orq jvgu gur
qnex fvqr bs gur sbepr, juvpu vf dhvgr zber haqrefgnaqnoyr guna gb tb
bire Ohssl'f urnq.
bookworm
Don Sample
"Rincewind" <rincewi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> For instance I always HATED the fact that action movies ALWAYS get the time
> of timer activated bombs wrong: you always see the timer counting down from
> 10 to 5 secs and then it takes half a minute of screen time before the
> explosion.
That isn't always the case. I think that the last 5 minutes or so of
the countdown to the reactor blowing up in Aliens plays out in real time.
Elisi
V qba'g unir gvzr gb qvfphff vg abj, ohg jura jr trg gb gur eryrinag
rcvfbqrf, V'z tbvat gb or va gur ceb-Tvyrf pnzc. (V qba'g guvax ur jnf
ehvarq, ur whfg tbg zber qrfcrengr.)
Don Sample
Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> (Harmony) Watcher wrote:
> > Pna fbzrobql erzvaq zr jura rknpgyl jr xabj sbe fher gung Fcvxr'f "frpbaq
> > fxva" jnf erzbirq sebz Avxxv Jbbq'f qrnq obql?
> >
>
> "Sbby Sbe Ybir" fubjrq Fcvxr gnxr gur pbng sebz gur Fynlre va Arj Lbex.
> "Yvrf Zl Cneragf Gbyq Zr" synfurf onpx gb gung gvzr naq vqragvsvrf ure
> nf Avxxv Jbbq (naq ol gung gvzr, jr nyernql xabj gung Jbbq'f zbgure jnf
> n Fynlre.)
Jr yrnearq gung gur Fynlre Fcvxr xvyyrq jnf Jbbq'f zbgure va "Svefg
Qngr," ohg vf vg fgvyy gur fnzr pbng? Pbhyq gur bevtvany unir fheivirq
arneyl 30 lrnef bs uneq hfr? Jr frr vg trg qrfgeblrq naq ercynprq ol n
qhcyvpngr va "Gur Tvey va Dhrfgvba." Znlor Fcvxr unf nyernql qbar gung,
frireny gvzrf.
Naq jura jbhyq Fcvxr unir unq gur bccbeghavgl gb cnpx vg hc, naq chg vg
va n obk va gur Fpubby Onfrzrag?
Elisi
FCVXR
Ab, abg n wnpxrg. Zl wnpxrg. Lbh unir ab vqrn jung V jrag guebhtu gb
trg guvf.
NATRY
Lbh fgevccrq vg bss n obql bs n qrnq fynlre.
FCVXR
Jryy, juvpu tvirf vg terng fragvzragny inyhr. Orfvqrf, V'ir orra
jrneva' vg sbe bire 30 lrnef. Vg'f yvxr n cneg bs zr.
'Gur Tvey Va Dhrfgvba.'
Naq V guvax Ohssl cebonoyl chg vg va gur fpubby onfrzrag.
lili...@gmail.com
Don Sample schreef:
Rfcrpvnyyl fvapr ur yrsg vg ng Ohssl'f naq V qba'g frr uvz farnxvat
onpx va ng Ohssl'f cynpr gb tb cvpx vg hc orsber ur yrsg gbja.
Zl orfg thrff vf gung Ohssl be fbzrbar ryfr, oebhtug vg gb gur onfrzrag
nsgre gurl sbhaq bhg gung Fcvxr jnf gurer, gubhtu V unir n uneq gvzr
haqrefgnaqvat jul gurl'q qb gung.
Lore
Malsperanza
Which is the episode with Jack O'Toole? Is that "The Zeppo"? Because
when Jack raises one of his homeboys from the grave, the guy says
something like, "How long was I down?" And the answer is "8 months."
So: no consistency in this.
~Mal
Malsperanza
Scythe Matters wrote:
> When this aired, I wondered if Bottom-biter was occasionaly morphing
Not to be confused with Ass-biter, which is apparently one of Anya's
nicknames.
Snip most of a very helpful summary of the state of play at this point.
>It seems almost baffling that she [Buffy]
> wouldn't get more pushback and suspicion here. But maybe she's just not
> getting it out loud. While they're not actively confronting her, I
> neither hear nor see much acceptance or agreement on anyone's part. That
> could be interesting, if it's the right way to read the scene. It fits
> into the destabilization we've already seen, if the Scoobies are being
> brought to the point where they can't trust her.
If Bottom-Feeder is appearing as all these different characters to sow
seeds of dissension and doubt among the Scoobies, I wish there were a
closer correlation between the things it says to them while in those
guises and the Scoobies' mistrust. But the Scoobies have always leapt
to the mistrustful conclusion when it comes to Buffy. None of them are
very quick to believe or support her. This motive seems more plausible
than any other reason I can come up with, but it still seems like a
rather ... diffuse way for the Big Bad to be working. So far, it seems
mainly just malicious mischief, like a poltergeist or leprechaun. ("The
wisest aunt, telling the saddest tale, sometime for three-foot stool
mistaketh me; then slip I from her bum, down topples she."--Puck, in
Midsummer Night's Dream)
~Mal
Don Sample
"Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Mel wrote:
> > Rowan Hawthorn wrote:
> >
> > > We've seen people rise from the morgue, the funeral home, their graves,
> > > and their place of death. Since people are rarely if ever buried the
> > > same day they die (in the US, at any rate,) that in itself should be a
> > > tip-off that there's no real consistency to the time it takes for them
> > > to rise.
> > >
> > Heh, I just made a similar comment in the "Replacement Slayer" thread.
> > GMTA.
> >
>
> Which is the episode with Jack O'Toole? Is that "The Zeppo"? Because
> when Jack raises one of his homeboys from the grave, the guy says
> something like, "How long was I down?" And the answer is "8 months."
> So: no consistency in this.
>
> ~Mal
That was bringing someone back as a zombie, not a vampire rising.
Malsperanza
Scythe Matters wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>
> what seems crazy (talking to himself) was not (because he was not
> talking to himself). And I was arguing that it's plausible that a good
> deal of his continuing insanity was due to this situation, which was
> being manipulated by FBY. The "wierd poetics and strange phrases" might
> not exist if Spike didn't believe he was hallucinating, possibly almost
> perpetually. Plus, being driven to kill and repress can't have worked
> wonders on his recovery. Who knows where he'd be without this
> manipulation? But I would never argue that he wasn't crazy at all.
> Certainly he was, at least somewhat.
I think he is certainly mad north-northwest. Which doesn't mean that
he's without understanding or insight or knowledge or the ability to
put 2 and 2 together. He just keeps interrupting himself with moments
of raving misery and hysterical guilt. Or vice versa.
> > Either that or dumb-villain sloppiness, as others have suggested.
Although, one interesting aspect of s7 is that the apparent Big Bad has
shown up early, unfolding nice and slowly beginning with these early
episodes. So there's time for the writers time to develop a Big Bad
with some greater substance than they could with, say, Glory in s5, or
even the Mayor in s3, both of whom turned up late(ish) in their season.
For all that I liked the actor who played Glory, the "Evil Valley Girl
Goddess" idea didn't have a whole lot of range. She turned out to be
scary mainly for her immense physical strength. An unidentified Big Bad
who takes the form of the characters themselves--including one's own
family and friends--is much creepier. It's a kind of blending of the
Great Supernatural Evil of seasons 1-5 and the wholly human evil of s6.
> Well, it's way too early to judge that. At this stage, we have an
> unidentified and selectively visible villain that can make Spike kill
> despite both a soul and a chip, that can change appearance at will, that
> someone as powerful as d'Hoffryn's afraid of...and (lest we forget) a
> quickly rising body count here and abroad. To fight it, we have
> (powerless) Dawn, Anya and Xander, an über-witch who's justifiably
> afraid to use any power at all, a presumably souled and chipped
> ex-vampire who's killing again, can't be trusted not to kill our heroes,
> and is nuts anyway, and a Slayer completely on the defensive (or perhaps
> more accurately, completely internally-focused) and questioning her very
> nature and existence. That's pretty good work.
Indeed. And I'd say not only is the Slayer completely internally
focused; pretty much everyone is. There's not a lot of cohesion in the
Scooby Gang, despite the restored cameraderie.
~Mal
Malsperanza
One Bit Shy wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1158790351.3...@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
> > Scythe Matters wrote:
> >
> >> Further, this brings a whole new perspective to Spike thus far this
> >> season. Go back to the first seven episodes of this season. How many
> >> times have we seen Spike allegedly babbling to himself & theoretically
> >> insane? How many times was he actually conversing with this morphing
> >> thing? So how insane is he, really? And if he's mostly been conversing
> >> with this thing that actually exists in some fashion, now that he
> >> understands that how's he going to feel about it? It's been easiest to
> >> view his self-flagellating insanity thus far as an extended form of
> >> misery and guilt post-soul. But what if he's not really at that stage at
> >> all? What if he's more over it than he's thought, up to this point? Or
> >> less? It's all very interesting to consider.
> >
> > I've seen a few people question whether he was really crazy at all.
> > the other basement scenes. As far back as STSP, where we know that
> > he's having two conversations at once, we can start to wonder whether
> > he's just seeing things that no one else does. But in that episode and
> > others, he's still talking in weird poetics and strange phrases, and
> > his head's not all there. It would seem like there's always been some
> > stuff directly addressed to FBYG, and others that're bits of madness,
> > challenging the viewer to pick apart which is which.
>
> Personally I think it's clear he was mad as a hatter. Yes, the things he
> saw (at least most) weren't his doing. But they were still capable of
> making him crazy - along with the stress of his soul being back too.
>
> But what's up in the air is what all is directly from Morphy and what's just
> crazy. It's not just that he was seeing things. He's had his memory
> suppressed and evidently has some kind of musically triggered bad boy switch
> in him. That really confuses the picture. An important part of that
> confusion - which I think is one of the things Scythe was pointing at - is
> how crazy he still is. Is he worse? Better? Maybe even healed? (Just in
> the crazy sense. Obviously he has a lot of coping to do.)
>
> A big part of this episode is what lucid Spike does. He's responsible for
> solving most of the mystery.
>
> OBS
One could argue that Spike was always a nutcase. When he returns to
Sunnydale to get Drusilla back, we see him wandering around his old
haunts giggling and ranting drunkenly. He's certainly been unstable for
a very long time, well before he went off to Africa to get his soul.
~Mal
Malsperanza
Don Sample wrote:
> In article <1158790351.3...@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Scythe Matters wrote:
> >
> > > Further, this brings a whole new perspective to Spike thus far this
> > > season. Go back to the first seven episodes of this season. How many
> > > times have we seen Spike allegedly babbling to himself & theoretically
> > > insane? How many times was he actually conversing with this morphing
> > > thing? So how insane is he, really? And if he's mostly been conversing
> > > with this thing that actually exists in some fashion, now that he
> > > understands that how's he going to feel about it? It's been easiest to
> > > view his self-flagellating insanity thus far as an extended form of
> > > misery and guilt post-soul. But what if he's not really at that stage at
> > > all? What if he's more over it than he's thought, up to this point? Or
> > > less? It's all very interesting to consider.
> >
> > I've seen a few people question whether he was really crazy at all.
> > Well, he certainl seemed quite far gone, especially in "Lessons" and
> > the other basement scenes. As far back as STSP, where we know that
> > he's having two conversations at once, we can start to wonder whether
> > he's just seeing things that no one else does. But in that episode and
> > others, he's still talking in weird poetics and strange phrases, and
> > his head's not all there. It would seem like there's always been some
> > stuff directly addressed to FBYG, and others that're bits of madness,
> > challenging the viewer to pick apart which is which.
>
> created by FBYG. He isn't aware of some of the things that he's doing.
> Some of the things that he's talking to might be genuine hallucinations.
FBYG also seems to be suffering from Dissociative Identity Disorder.
~Mal
Malsperanza
Elisi wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> > Season Seven, Episode 8: "Sleeper"
> > (or "[insert sound of whistling _In The Hall Of The Mountain
> > King_]")
>
> what FBY was saying in 'Lessons', and shows that it's been working on
> Spike for a good while:
>
> FBY!Drusilla: "You'll always be mine. You'll always be in the dark with
> me, singing our little songs.
A direct echo of Spike's words to Buffy on the balcony of the Bronze in
s6.
~Mal
Malsperanza
One Bit Shy wrote:
snip
> Back in the S6 discussion/argument about why Spike went after the soul and
> what the chip had to do with it, there's one thing I didn't notice being
> brought up. I know I didn't. I was exploring something different. But
> part of the soul quest was an expression of free will. He was seeking to
> free himself from the binds of the chip. Simple freedom.
>
> When he raged about how the chip wouldn't let him be a monster, he was also
> saying that it wouldn't let him be his own man. The best thing about being
> a vampire to Spike was how it liberated him. But he had become enslaved.
> Remember the talk of how chipped Spike was like a serial killer in prison?
> Or Adam describing him as smothered, trapped like an animal?
>
> The issue wasn't just what kind of person Spike wanted to be. The greater
> desire was for Spike to be his own man.
>
> That's an awful lot of what the Seeing Red epiphany is about, IMO. Getting
> a soul is how he can rebel against the chip, how he can make the chip
> irrelevant
...Rebel against the chip and also against being a vampire, which is a
form of enslavement as well.
~Mal
Rowan Hawthorn
> In article <LOudnSKHutxAGY_Y...@giganews.com>,
> Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> (Harmony) Watcher wrote:
>
>>> Pna fbzrobql erzvaq zr jura rknpgyl jr xabj sbe fher gung Fcvxr'f "frpbaq
>>> fxva" jnf erzbirq sebz Avxxv Jbbq'f qrnq obql?
>>>
>> "Sbby Sbe Ybir" fubjrq Fcvxr gnxr gur pbng sebz gur Fynlre va Arj Lbex.
>> "Yvrf Zl Cneragf Gbyq Zr" synfurf onpx gb gung gvzr naq vqragvsvrf ure
>> nf Avxxv Jbbq (naq ol gung gvzr, jr nyernql xabj gung Jbbq'f zbgure jnf
>> n Fynlre.)
>
> Jr yrnearq gung gur Fynlre Fcvxr xvyyrq jnf Jbbq'f zbgure va "Svefg
> Qngr," ohg vf vg fgvyy gur fnzr pbng? Pbhyq gur bevtvany unir fheivirq
> arneyl 30 lrnef bs uneq hfr?
*Pbhyq* unir, lrnu - yrngure vf gbhtu. Onpx va gur 70f gurl jrer fgvyy
znxvat n *ybg* bs yrnguref gung jrer npghnyyl *vagraqrq* gb ynfg (lbh
pna fgvyy svaq'rz, ohg gurl pbfg na nez naq n yrt; zbfg bs gur fghss ba
gur znexrg gurfr qnlf vf zrnag sbe ybbxf, abg npghny hfr,) naq 30 lrnef
vfa'g gung ybat sbe n jryy-znqr yrngure tnezrag. Ohg, abj, jurgure vg
npghnyyl *vf* gur fnzr pbng vf n tbbq dhrfgvba, naq nalobql'f thrff.
> Jr frr vg trg qrfgeblrq naq ercynprq ol n
> qhcyvpngr va "Gur Tvey va Dhrfgvba." Znlor Fcvxr unf nyernql qbar gung,
> frireny gvzrf.
>
> Naq jura jbhyq Fcvxr unir unq gur bccbeghavgl gb cnpx vg hc, naq chg vg
> va n obk va gur Fpubby Onfrzrag?
Tbbq dhrfgvba. VVEP, ur yrsg vg ng Ohssl'f va "Frrvat Erq."
Elisi
I know. It's brilliant! :)
bookworm
that's what I say.
Arbitrar Of Quality
Apteryx wrote:
> "Michael Ikeda" <mmi...@erols.com> wrote in message
> news:_ZGdnQjXE7cDW4zY...@rcn.net...
> > "Apteryx" <apt...@xtra.co.nz> wrote in
> > news:eeqohb$td4$1...@emma.aioe.org:
> >> Agree about the logic of leaving the suspect serial killer of
> >> young women to be guarded by a solitary young woman, but the
> >> scene itself works for me. It's pure Anya, badly faking being
> >> hurt when her badly faked seduction attempt fails.
> >>
> >
> > I'm don't think she's entirely faking feeling hurt. It isn't that
> > she really wanted to have sex with Spike, but I think she's a bit
> > miffed that he wasn't at least a little tempted to accept her offer.
>
> I guess she acts herself into being miffed. But it's not real. Her annoyance
> disappears as soon as Spike does, and that's not usual for her if she was
> genuinely hurt.
Do we really see much of her after Spike leaves? I'm with those who
can see Anya being hurt by rejection as matter of principle. And she's
more convincing at that than she is at "horny," anyway...
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
Mel wrote:
> Captain Infinity wrote:
> > Once Upon A Time Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Early on Spike is induced to kill again by From Beneath You Guy taking
> >>the form of Buffy, in one of the more intense moments of the episode.
> >
> >
> > Interesting. My mental picture of From Beneath You Guy has always been
> > as From Beneath You Gal. Anyone else?
> Mine too. Probably because of appearing as Buffy (naq Wraal) so much. I
> was quite surprised to see FBYG referred to as "he" in the dvd set.
I've been thinking of it as sexless, but adding the G at the end of the
acronym is snappier.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Although, one interesting aspect of s7 is that the apparent Big Bad has
> shown up early, unfolding nice and slowly beginning with these early
> episodes. So there's time for the writers time to develop a Big Bad
> with some greater substance than they could with, say, Glory in s5, or
> even the Mayor in s3, both of whom turned up late(ish) in their season.
I can't really go with that, given that Wilkins and Glory first
appeared in the fifth episodes of their respective seasons,
"Homecoming" and "No Place Like Home" respectively. That's not such a
big time difference. To me "late-ish" would mean someone like Adam,
who didn't appear until the thirteenth episode of S4; not surprisingly,
he was also one of the least interesting Big Bads. The only major
villains (not counting bit players like Doc) who appeared later in the
year than Adam so far have been "dark" versions of established
characters.
> For all that I liked the actor who played Glory, the "Evil Valley Girl
> Goddess" idea didn't have a whole lot of range.
Tell me about it...
> She turned out to be
> scary mainly for her immense physical strength. An unidentified Big Bad
> who takes the form of the characters themselves--including one's own
> family and friends--is much creepier. It's a kind of blending of the
> Great Supernatural Evil of seasons 1-5 and the wholly human evil of s6.
Hmmm. That's an interesting way to think about it. And given that S7
is the final year, it makes it very convenient to have callbacks to the
old days, as seen right away in "Lessons."
-AOQ
vague disclaimer
"Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
There's no evidence that Spike ever saw being a vampire in that way
Indeed, he has clearly just accepted it to the point of being irritated
by those who forgot amid his chipness. He said "Hello, vampire" or
"Hello, evil" in much the same manner that Willow said "Hello, gay now"
(naq yngre ershfrq gb yrg uvf fbhy pneel nal thvyg sbe orvat n inzcver).
--
Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Just as I was finishing my post to you (an absolutely brilliant one I must
> say - the best thing I've ever written in my lifetime - and my past lives
> for that matter), my system crashed. (Which is not common.) And I lost
> everything. Aaaaargh!
> So you get the second version. Not quite so brilliant.
Arrrgh indeed. But now I can feel less guilty about only responding to
little pieces here and there.
> I don't actually know anything about what went into making this episode.
> (The listed writers are certainly competent.) But I sense that the stress
> of too much going on at M.E. is catching up with them here. They may have
> pulled a rabbit out of the hat with CWDP, but this episode strikes me as
> very unrefined. It needed a heck of a lot more fine tuning.
It's, well, assumption-heavy to assume too much, but if an episode is
written by multiple long-time writers who normally work alone, it's
often something thrown together as a placeholder and sometimes
plot-mover; something that exists because of its place in the season
outline, rather than a project that's realy special to anyone in
itself. That's hardly a hard-and-fast rule or anything, just wanted to
throw it out.
> This brings me back to my first impressions upon airing. At that time I
> understood very little about all the illusory people showing up and imagined
> all sorts of crazy things. Here's one for you - an example of how some of
> this could play to somebody who doesn't know what's going on - and where
> some of the tension could come from. Back in the season opener, when all
> the Big Bads morphed in front of Spike - the final shot of Buffy was not a
> morph. (A couple of the Big Bads didn't visibly morph either, but there was
> a morph sound effect with them. There was no such sound effect for Buffy.)
> Then there's the confusing double Buffy scene in Helpless, when we're not
> certain how to take who's real - where the supposed real Buffy acts almost
> evil, while the supposed fake Buffy is the caring one. And Buffy doesn't
> get a vision in CWDP - just a real vampire. So, when Buffy walks into the
> alley here - dressed just like the searching Buffy we saw moments earlier -
> I was not at all certain she was fake. Including when she spoke. One of
> the ideas I was entertaining was that somehow Buffy had gone bad - a kind of
> red kryptonite moment if you will - and that she was responsible for what
> Spike was doing.
>
> Obviously I was disabused of that notion pretty forcefully when Buffy
> morphed into Spike. (One reason for fake-Spike being in the episode.)
Can't say that ever occurred to me, so I guess there's a purpose. It
seems like people watching together could devise a game seeing who can
more quickly identify it when the "Buffy" in any given scene is fake.
> Why fake-Spike. You're right that his lines, though sometimes informative,
> aren't terribly exciting, nor particularly related to being fake-Spike.
> It's one of the dialog problems in the episode IMO.
>
> But the idea of fake-Spike is spot on. Our Big Bad is essentially throwing
> Spike's old self in his face. Showing him a confident, bad boy, lusting for
> (un)life former self as contrast to the pathetic whimpering thing he's
> become. Remember the morphed Master's words: "You'll learn you're a
> pathetic schmuck, if it hasn't sunk in already. Look at you. Trying to do
> what's right, just like her."
>
> The depiction is paired with fake-Buffy - like a tag team.
>
> Buffy: You know you want it. You know I want you to... There's my guy.
>
> Fake-Buffy isn't just seducing Spike into killing the girl. She's telling
> Spike that it was evil Spike she wanted all along. That it's the new souled
> Spike that isn't worthy of her. And here's the bad boy Spike to remind him
> of what she really wants.
>
> Our Big Bad is sending a very specific message. Spike screwed up when he
> got his soul. He never should have done it, and now has lost everything by
> choosing wrong.
Huh. Even now I'm not entirely convinced that the writers thought it
through as clearly as you have. That's often a sign of a good idea
executed badly. I'd second the problems with the dialogue, since I'm
not seeing Spike #2 as much of a representation of Spike's past so much
as generic evil - some work there could've gone a long way towards
clarifying that.
> Back in the S6 discussion/argument about why Spike went after the soul and
> what the chip had to do with it, there's one thing I didn't notice being
> brought up. I know I didn't. I was exploring something different. But
> part of the soul quest was an expression of free will. He was seeking to
> free himself from the binds of the chip. Simple freedom.
>
> When he raged about how the chip wouldn't let him be a monster, he was also
> saying that it wouldn't let him be his own man. The best thing about being
> a vampire to Spike was how it liberated him. But he had become enslaved.
> Remember the talk of how chipped Spike was like a serial killer in prison?
> Or Adam describing him as smothered, trapped like an animal?
>
> The issue wasn't just what kind of person Spike wanted to be. The greater
> desire was for Spike to be his own man.
And here's an example of something that seems entirely clear and well
thought out once put in its proper context, as a contrast to the above.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
Ari wrote:
> Scythe Matters wrote:
> > Malsperanza wrote:
> >
> > > Plus, Buffy more and more embraces aspects of the Dark Side.
> >
> > BUFFY: I'm the good guy, remember?
> >
> > DRACULA: Perhaps, but your power is rooted in darkness. You must feel it.
> >
> > ---
> >
> > DRACULA: I have searched the world over for you. I have yearned for you.
> > For a creature whose darkness rivals my own.
> >
> > ---
> >
> > DRACULA: All those years fighting us. Your power so near to our
> > own...and you've never once wanted to know what it is that we fight for?
> > Never even a taste?
> >
> > ---
> >
> > DRACULA: Find it. The darkness. Find your true nature.
>
> Super cheesy dialogue for a super campy episode. I think we're supposed
> to mock
> this Dracula and all the gobbledygook he spoke, not take him seriously.
> I mean come on, he's Fabio with a CAPE!
Why all the back-reference to "Restless" if BvD is just a big joke?
Also, being a season premiere, I'd say that a big part of its goal is
to set the agenda for the future in general and the year to come in
particular. Sometimes they're successes as episodes and sometimes they
fall on their faces (*coughJudgmentcough*), but that's what all the
Buffyverse season premieres seem to be about to some degree.
-AOQ
George W Harris
wrote:
:
:> GMTA.
:>
:>
:> Mel
:
:Which is the episode with Jack O'Toole? Is that "The Zeppo"? Because
:when Jack raises one of his homeboys from the grave, the guy says
:something like, "How long was I down?" And the answer is "8 months."
:So: no consistency in this.
They weren't vampires.
:
:~Mal
--
"The truths of mathematics describe a bright and clear universe,
exquisite and beautiful in its structure, in comparison with
which the physical world is turbid and confused."
-Eulogy for G.H.Hardy
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
George W Harris
wrote:
:One could argue that Spike was always a nutcase. When he returns to
:Sunnydale to get Drusilla back, we see him wandering around his old
:haunts giggling and ranting drunkenly.
I think a more likely reason for him ranting
drunkenly is his drunkenness.
--
/bud...@nirvana.net/h:k
One Bit Shy
news:1158867618.3...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
One could, but that one wouldn't be me I'm afraid. I think he was drunk and
love-sick from rejection then. He had a kind of inferiority complex about
Angel, but not so as to make him genuinely crazy IMO. When the chip comes
in, it gets more complicated. But mostly I think he holds it together -
kind of depends on how crazy you think he is getting the Buffybot for
example.
Nothing ever like this season though.
OBS
One Bit Shy
I think there's indication that he lost a lot of interest in aspects of
being a vampire - notably bloodlust. But I don't think he ever saw being a
vampire as enslavement - not back then. Maybe in a very narrow sense that a
vampire can't have whatever it is that a soul endows. But then, a soul
doesn't leave you free from that pesky conscience either.
OBS
Mel
(Harmony) Watcher wrote:
> <chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu> wrote in message
> news:12h2tvc...@corp.supernews.com...
>
>>I tried to post earlier but apparently hit the wrong key. Apologies if
>>this turns out to be a duplicate.
>>
>>Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>>>threads.
>>
>>>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>>>Season Seven, Episode 8: "Sleeper"
>>>(or "[insert sound of whistling _In The Hall Of The Mountain
>>>King_]")
>>>Writers: David Fury and Jane Espenson
>>>Director: Alan J. Levi
>>
>>.
>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>Anya's scenes tend to bother me this week, and it's hard to explain
>>>exactly why. I didn't really buy the casualness with which the
>>>others leave her to watch a suspected serial killer, and the way she
>>>takes it; here the snide comments about that very thing tend to call
>>>the viewer's attention to the problem rather than defuse it. And her
>>>attempt to get kinky with William is rather painful to watch - it's
>>>like a scene laden with discomfort that the show hasn't, through
>>>plotting, earned the right to inflict it on the viewer. If that even
>>>makes any sense.
>>
>>I enjoyed the humor here more than you did, but the beginning of that
>>scene didn't make sense to me. Why would Anya suspect that a killer Spike
>>would be keeping trophies from his victims? He never did that before,
>>with the sole exception of the New York Slayer's coat. Anya is taking the
>>vampire-serial killer analogy way too seriously. But I guess the writers
>>couldn't think of any better way of getting Anya into Spike's bedcloset.
>>
>
> Pna fbzrobql erzvaq zr jura rknpgyl jr xabj sbe fher gung Fcvxr'f "frpbaq
> fxva" jnf erzbirq sebz Avxxv Jbbq'f qrnq obql?
>
> <rest snipped>
>
> --
> ==Harmony Watcher==
>
>
"Sbby Sbe Ybir" fubjf uvz xvyyvat gur Fynlre ba gur fhojnl naq gnxvat
ure pbng. Jr qba'g xabj ur'f fgvyy jrnevat gur fnzr pbng fcrpvsvpnyyl
(fvapr ur pbhyq unir npdhverq n qvssrerag bar va gur zrnagvzr) hagvy
"Yvrf Zl Cneragf Gbyq Zr." Gung'f jura ur gryyf Ebova Jbbq ur tbg gur
pbng va Arj Lbex.
Mel
Scythe Matters
> If Bottom-Feeder is appearing as all these different characters to sow
> seeds of dissension and doubt among the Scoobies, I wish there were a
> closer correlation between the things it says to them while in those
> guises and the Scoobies' mistrust.
To be clear, I was talking about Buffy her plan for Spike here, not
Bottom Guy. I don't think the intra-group dissension (if it's there) in
the scene I described follows from FBY's work, I think it follows from
Buffy's history re: potentially dangerous vampires she happens to be
boning, and especially Spike.
The general destabilization, though, does appear to be fed and nurtured
by FBY's morphy badness. "Cassie" goes right for Willow's fear of magic.
"Joyce" plays on Dawn's long-established fear of being left out, left
behind, dismissed. The multiple apparitions in Spike's world hit on the
theme that he's not and will never be good enough (presumably for Buffy,
but also in general), whether or not he's got a soul. Va shgher
nccrnenaprf (gur cbgragvnyf, Jbbq, Snvgu, Ohssl urefrys), jr'yy frr gung
pbagvahr.
> But the Scoobies have always leapt
> to the mistrustful conclusion when it comes to Buffy.
With some justification, though. It's not an unreasonable mistrust, both
in this specific case and based on Buffy's general habits. I think
they've pretty much always trusted her in the fight against whatever
evil is on the menu, but they certainly haven't always trusted her
outside that narrow realm (and she _has_ made some dubious choices), and
of course that mistrust sometimes works against the one thing they're
usually able to come together to do (as in season four).
> it still seems like a
> rather ... diffuse way for the Big Bad to be working. So far, it seems
> mainly just malicious mischief, like a poltergeist or leprechaun.
Yes. At this stage, other than the wholesale destruction of Casa
Summers' living room and appliances, it's pretty unclear what gain the
unnamed Big Bad is after. (Maybe the Big Bad was summoned by Xander, to
create profitable work for his construction company. Buffy gets the work
for free, but elsewhere... ;-) )
Scythe Matters
> An unidentified Big Bad
> who takes the form of the characters themselves--including one's own
> family and friends--is much creepier. It's a kind of blending of the
> Great Supernatural Evil of seasons 1-5 and the wholly human evil of s6.
The "threat from within" has been something they've toyed with and
played around with over and over again -- Angelus, Faith and Buffy's
brief dalliances with her methods, Gwen Post, the arc in season four
that climaxed with "The Yoko Factor," Dawn as The Key, and of course
most recently Willow -- but this is indeed the first time they've put
most of their eggs in this particular basket. Anya was a danger (now
neutralized), but we've got Spike in heaven knows what state, Willow
still a potential time bomb, and now this morphing thing.
> Indeed. And I'd say not only is the Slayer completely internally
> focused; pretty much everyone is. There's not a lot of cohesion in the
> Scooby Gang, despite the restored cameraderie.
Which helps to hammer another nail into one of the season's structural
supports: the isolating and isolationist "I am the law" thing that
Buffy's feeling. The gang is physically proximate to her, and seems
supportive enough on the surface, but deep down I don't know if they're
truly with her, and deep down I don't think she thinks they are. And
certainly, the rather obvious tension between her and Willow is going to
have to be addressed at some point.
One Bit Shy
news:1158879869....@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>> So, when Buffy walks into the
>> alley here - dressed just like the searching Buffy we saw moments
>> earlier -
>> I was not at all certain she was fake. Including when she spoke. One of
>> the ideas I was entertaining was that somehow Buffy had gone bad - a kind
>> of
>> red kryptonite moment if you will - and that she was responsible for what
>> Spike was doing.
>>
>> Obviously I was disabused of that notion pretty forcefully when Buffy
>> morphed into Spike. (One reason for fake-Spike being in the episode.)
>
> Can't say that ever occurred to me, so I guess there's a purpose. It
> seems like people watching together could devise a game seeing who can
> more quickly identify it when the "Buffy" in any given scene is fake.
I watched it alone. Didn't tape it either. So it's all one shot watching
with a week in between and my faulty memory of glimpsed moments. For a
while I really thought something was being done to physical Buffy.... Which
didn't strike me then as any stranger a notion that what we'd seen before.
Buffy's lines are the telling ones IMO. She wants the bad boy. I think
that more or less works. (Although our bad guy probably can't work the same
angle after real Buffy agrees to help Spike. We'll have to see whether
another approach shows up.) Spike doesn't have content in his lines
(character content that is - there's some plot content) much beyond general
ridicule. But why else would Spike be used except to show him his "better"
self? The content of the deeds Spike is made to do and the way he's made to
feel is humiliation rich. An utter failure at having a soul.
What the greater aim of FBY is we really don't know. Perhaps it's to take
Spike out of the game. Or maybe some weird way of distracting Buffy. I
couldn't say. But the means seems to me to be aimed at getting Spike to
believe the soul was a failure. In that context, again using a fake-Spike
would seem to make sense as a reminder of the better vampire he used to be.
<shrug> I grant you, as depicted there is an illusive quality to it. But I
don't know a better reason.
>> The issue wasn't just what kind of person Spike wanted to be. The
>> greater
>> desire was for Spike to be his own man.
>
> And here's an example of something that seems entirely clear and well
> thought out once put in its proper context, as a contrast to the above.
Yeah, it helps to have lines that go directly to it.
I'm curious how you react to the next episode. Not for these two issues per
se. But as to what is done with the dialog.
OBS
Scythe Matters
> Can't say that ever occurred to me, so I guess there's a purpose. It
> seems like people watching together could devise a game seeing who can
> more quickly identify it when the "Buffy" in any given scene is fake.
At least so far, it hasn't been much of a problem to tell the existing
real characters from the existing fake characters. In a way, I think
it's a bit of a missed opportunity. It would be *really* creepy to have
someone who appeared and acted completely normal suddenly turn out to be
the Big Bad. Or, for that matter, the opposite: given an atmosphere of
suspicion, have a character acting suspiciously have to live with the
worry (on the part of others) that he or she is not what s/he appears to be.
OBS:
>>Our Big Bad is sending a very specific message. Spike screwed up when he
>>got his soul. He never should have done it, and now has lost everything by
>>choosing wrong.
>
>
> Huh. Even now I'm not entirely convinced that the writers thought it
> through as clearly as you have. That's often a sign of a good idea
> executed badly.
More often, it's a sign you weren't paying enough attention. ;-)
(Sorry. Been away. Long time since I've said that. ;-) )
Anyway, I think it's clear as day:
---
MORPHING MONSTER (as THE MAYOR)
So what'd you think? You'd get your soul back and everything'd be Jim
Dandy? Soul's slipperier than a greased weasel. Why do you think I sold
mine? (laughs) Well, you probably thought that you'd be your own man,
and I respect that, but...
MORPHING MONSTER (as DRUSILLA)
(touching Spike's face) ...you never will. [...]
MORPHING MONSTER (as THE MASTER)
[...] And I think we're all going to learn something about ourselves in
the process. You'll learn you're a pathetic schmuck, if it hasn't sunk
in already. Look at you. Trying to do what's right, just like her. You
still don't get it. It's not about right, not about wrong...
---
It could hardly be more baldly-stated. Perhaps you want it engraved on a
hammer, or maybe an anvil we can drop on your head? The context of FBY
trying to convince Spike that he made the wrong (or, more accurately, a
useless) choice has been in place since "Lessons," and all future
interactions have to be viewed in that context.
What's important, though, is not the dialogue, but that this came from
you questioning why not-Buffy morphed into not-Spike. While Occam's
Razor probably leads to the conclusion "because morphing is kewl," I do
think that OBS's overall analysis fits. Buffy, to Spike, represents his
ideal...what he wants, what he strives to be, and why he got the soul in
the first place. Spike (especially a badass, sneering phase of Spike)
represents what he was; the choice he rejected.
Maybe it would be best if we just put this on the back burner for a bit.