AOQ Review 6-15: "Hell's Bells"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Six, Episode 15: "Hell's Bells"
(or "What a tale of terror, now, their turbulency tells!")
Writer: Rebecca Rand Kirshner
Director: David Solomon
The very first thing I said once this started was "let's hope no
one leaves anyone at the altar. I don't know if I could take that.
But if they're going to use a cliché, I assume they'll at least
subvert it."
This one starts off pretty well, with our heroes displaying appropriate
horror with regards to the bridesmaids' dresses. Apparently just the
sight of a supernatural old man after suggestive dialogue is enough to
qualify for the end-of teaser suspense moment.
I made a comment last week about how hearing about the hellish antics
that'd happen when the two families collided was more fun than
actually watching it, and I stand by that. The early sequences manage
a few smiles with Xander's dad successfully managing, when shown in
small doses, that trick of irritating everyone except the audience with
his unplumbed depths of crass. Plus, Clem is in a few scenes. Hi,
Clem! Interspersed with that, we have a few tender moments amongst our
heroes, which don't tend to stand out but are acceptable. The gag at
the end of the Buffy/Xander exchange is a highlight, though: "I hope
I'm as lucky as you guys someday." "You wanna get lucky? I've
still got, what, fifteen, twenty minutes?" The affection in the
delivery and the characters' history make it funnier. Also, Anya's
vows are great - the first time, anyway.
Then Xander gets a vision of the future. The nightmare scenario is a
very effective bit of storytelling. The slices of life show things
gradually get older and uglier over the years. Tantalizing little
details make this short sequence richer. Take NightmareScenario!Xander
(hereafter prefixed "NS!") being unable to work because of a failed
attempt to help Buffy against something unspecified. Hey, it's a
premise that ties into something that's been discussed in past X/A
scenes. Also, the vision ends with NS!Xander attacking and possibly
killing NS!Anya. That would be exactly Xander's worst fear at a time
like this, and it's the only thing that could... well, okay, nothing
could make the ending of HB work. (Hmm, does it seem like a certain
review is about to take a very sharp bitter turn?) But if anything
could, it'd be this.
Before we get to any bitter turnings, let me say that the episode had
me at this point, especially since the followup to "all they bring
each other is pain" is Buffy and Spike. They may be doomed to be one
of those couples who're more fun for me when they're pining for
each other than when they're actually together, since this is a great
little exchange, very well scripted and performed. Funny, but only in
a better-to-laugh-than-mope kinda way. "But it hurts?"
"Yeah." "Thanks."
After Xander and Willow share a best-friends moment, the show veers
into the realm of the generic with, sure enough, one of the pre-weds
running away and leaving the other at the altar. Ugh. I admit, and
I'm ashamed to do so, that I did laugh at Buffy's dissertation
about the mini-tor. As everyone should know, I generally dislike that
long-running gag of Buffy stammering out absurd excuses and having
people believe them. I think the sheer unadulterated excess is what
made it into a guilty laugh here. Otherwise, things quickly go awry as
our heroes have to hide the fact that something's wrong. Never been
fond of watching that stuff, even though HB keeps my goodwill a little
by showing it in bits and pieces rather than in long scenes. But by
the time everyone erupts into a big brawl, it's clear that the
episode has lost its way, wandering into uncomfortable barely-comedic
farce, which seems especially inappropriate given the heaviness of what
we've just seen. These sequences stick out in memory as the bulk of
the episode, regardless of how much actual time they take up, because
they feel very very very long.
Come to think of it, I'm going to take the stance that the
farce/drama balance is out of whack, since now I'm wondering if maybe
these scenes weren't even supposed to be that funny so much as a way
to look at Mr. Harris and compare/contrast with NS!Xander. This
didn't even occur to me until it was time to write the review.
In the end we take a second to sabotage the drama we've built up by
having it just be an Evil Thing. At least the idea of having lots of
be-cursed monsters gunning for Anyanka is fine. The fight scene is
pretty good, even if the demon-voice speech isn't. But then, since
the visions came out of Xander's fears, he then decides that it means
they shouldn't get married. Um...
Words cannot adequately convey my distaste and contempt here, and
attempting to do so may only expose my weaknesses as a writer, but
I'm going to try my best. I don't buy this. Not for an instant.
The wedding is crashed by pure plot device, an external force altering
things for no adequate dramatic reason. Xander decides that his
deepest desire is to not do anything that could hurt Anya, so he rips
her heart out and sends her running back to D'Hoffryn. Yeah, I can
really see how his thought processes would work that way. Note my
employment of sarcasm, a rhetorical device in which a sentence is used
to express the opposite of its stated meaning.
Part of the hell of it is, S6 has attempted to set this up so that it
doesn't come out of nowhere, but it's been done so in such a
hopelessly inept manner that it'd be hilarious if it weren't
depressing. We've seen Xander get apprehensive about matrimony, and
then convincingly seen such fears written off as the perfectly normal
kind. Lately we've seen him get annoyed with the wedding, and then
we've been reminded that the wedding does not equal the marriage.
There's even OMWF, in which Xander's need for everything to be just
right causes that episode's single biggest flaw and is never properly
addressed. The end result is that the great fears that supposedly
shape this decision do in fact come out of nowhere, and are entirely
unconvincing.
Bottom line: this doesn't feel organic to the characters involved.
This feels like the writers wanted yet another episode to end with
someone sobbing. They attempt to elicit emotion through clichés, like
the old image of the jilted bride in her wedding dress, distraught.
It's manufactured tragedy. The polar opposite of the emotional
honesty that BTVS breakups usually provide, what we have here is
hackneyed melodrama of the lowest order. Garbage like the end of
"Hell's Bells" should be beneath _Buffy_, for the show's own
sake if not for the viewer's.
I'm feeling like I was way too kind.
So...
One-sentence summary: All smoke and mirrors.
AOQ rating: Weak
[Season Six so far:
1) "Bargaining" - Decent
2) "After Life" - Good
3) "Flooded" - Decent
4) "Life Serial" - Good
5) "All The Way" - Good
6) "Once More, With Feeling" - Excellent
7) "Tabula Rasa" - Good
8) "Smashed" - Decent
9) "Wrecked" - Good
10) "Gone" - Decent
11) "Doublemeat Palace" - Decent
12) "Dead Things" - Good
13) "Older And Faraway" - Good
14) "As You Were" - Decent
15) "Hell's Bells" - Weak]
jil...@hotmail.com
through. So, they had to write a demon story in to have a "realistic"
(Buffy-style) reason for Xander to flee the wedding.
Yes, they do love to ruin our heroes chances at becoming mature,
especially if there are any remotely unresolved issues to tangle with.
Elisi
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 16: "Hell's Bells"
> (or "What a tale of terror, now, their turbulency tells!")
I don't think I've seen this one since it first aired, and I've no
plans to re-watch... like, ever! Too much angst - way, way worse than
'Becoming'!
That said, I don't think it's awful or comes out of nowhere. Just 2
quick points:
1) Anya was a vengeance demon for 1100 years, merrily destroying people
(the 'Evil Thing' was quite simply just a guy who'd cheated on his girl
friend or something... remember that Anyanka first showed up to help
Cordy?). She has never shown a moments remorse for what she did, as
opposed to say Angel who's crushed by guilt:
Angel: "Funny. You would think with all the - people I've maimed -
and killed I wouldn't be able to remember every - single - one.
(Five by Five)
Demon: Stewart Burns. Philanderer! You'd think you'd remember. I
remember you. But then again, you ruined my life.
Anya: You were a ... I punished you.
Demon: That's right. Some hussy I'd been taking around summons you,
next thing I know, I look like this and I'm being tortured in another
dimension.
Anya: I forgot.
(Hells Bells)
Does Anya really deserve a happy ending? Of course she does (because I
adore her), but looking at it completely objectively, does she really?
Was her past 'wiped clean' when she became human (a la Angel's Shanshu
prophecy)?
Still, as I said this is a truly heart breaking episode. And I'm not
sure you noticed, but Anya's vows get increasingly more honest and
touching. From the 'sex poodle' bit to showing true love and affection.
*sniff*
2) I don't think Xander's fears come out of nowhere. I think that it
could have been handled a lot better, but from a character perspective,
it fits perfectly. And I'm not talking about this season, I'm talking
about everything from S1 onwards. We have heard bits and pieces about
his family for years (mostly in a joking way, which sort of throws the
viewer off): They're deeply dysfunctional. Xander spent much of his
childhood round Willow's. At Christmas he sleeps outside to avoid the
arguments. And he really, really hates the basement. It's never stated
whether he was abused, but he certainly grew up in an abusive
atmosphere. This episode is one of the most unflinching looks at the
consequences of such a childhood that I've ever seen. I don't like it,
but I don't think it's unrealistic.
Finally, from 'Restless' (and yes, I think the deal with Xander's dream
has a lot to do with being unable to escape his upbrining - he is
unable to leave that basement. He does in real life, but does he ever
mentally? 'Hells Bells' would suggest no):
--------------------------------
(Xander comes out in his basement again. Stops, looks around. The
music slowly fades out. There's still pounding on the upstairs door and
the
knob rattling. He goes toward it, up a couple of stairs, shaking his
head.)
XANDER: (whispers) That's not the way out. (The door bursts open.
Xander
looks down at himself, then back up the stairs.)
VOICE: What the hell is wrong with you?
(Xander looks chastised.)
(We see a man silhouetted in the doorway above. It's Xander's dad.)
DAD: You won't come upstairs? What are you ... ashamed of us? Your
mother's
crying her guts out!
XANDER: You don't understand.
DAD: No. You don't understand. (Starts down the stairs, stomping
angrily)
The line ends here with us, and you're not gonna change that.
(Xander looking down, unable to look at his dad.)
DAD: You haven't got the heart.
(Suddenly Dad shoves his hand into Xander's chest. Xander looks down.
The
hand is covered with rags. He looks up, scared. We get a brief glimpse
of a
pair of feral eyes surrounded by dark stringy hair. Grey skin. The
person
growls.)
(The hand pulls Xander's heart out of his chest.)
-----------------------------
Apteryx
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
> one leaves anyone at the altar. I don't know if I could take that.
> But if they're going to use a cliché, I assume they'll at least
> subvert it."
Oh-oh
> I made a comment last week about how hearing about the hellish antics
> that'd happen when the two families collided was more fun than
> actually watching it, and I stand by that.
And why not.
> heroes, which don't tend to stand out but are acceptable. The gag at
> the end of the Buffy/Xander exchange is a highlight, though: "I hope
> I'm as lucky as you guys someday." "You wanna get lucky? I've
> still got, what, fifteen, twenty minutes?" The affection in the
> delivery and the characters' history make it funnier. Also, Anya's
> vows are great - the first time, anyway.
Yep. Actually most of Buffy's scenes are pretty good. Pity there aren't
more - that girl deserves her own show.
> by showing it in bits and pieces rather than in long scenes. But by
> the time everyone erupts into a big brawl, it's clear that the
> episode has lost its way, wandering into uncomfortable barely-comedic
> farce, which seems especially inappropriate given the heaviness of what
> we've just seen. These sequences stick out in memory as the bulk of
> the episode, regardless of how much actual time they take up, because
> they feel very very very long.
Yeah. I find fast forward improves this scene if you have to watch it.
>
> Words cannot adequately convey my distaste and contempt here, and
> attempting to do so may only expose my weaknesses as a writer, but
> I'm going to try my best. I don't buy this. Not for an instant.
> The wedding is crashed by pure plot device, an external force altering
> things for no adequate dramatic reason. Xander decides that his
> deepest desire is to not do anything that could hurt Anya, so he rips
> her heart out and sends her running back to D'Hoffryn. Yeah, I can
> really see how his thought processes would work that way. Note my
> employment of sarcasm, a rhetorical device in which a sentence is used
> to express the opposite of its stated meaning.
So - you're not convinced then?
I agree with your analysis of why the ending doesn't work. Many here
are satisfied if something is forshadowed (and of course Xander
chickening out has been foreshadowed up the wazoo) as if the only crime
in story telling is innovation. But the episode doesn't earn the
ending, there is no convincing explanation of why Xander would suddenly
be so cruel, or so dense that he doesn't know he's being cruel. The
very fact that they have shown Xander so often worried but still
carrying on to the wedding day undermines the explanations offered.
But you've paid for all the episodes in the set, so you might as well
find some way to enjoy them if you can. My method for enjoying this one
is to forget the story, and treat all the better scenes as skits in a
variety show. There's a lot of good skits there - pretty much
everything Buffy is in, much of Dawn's, Anya's vows, Spike's date. A
lot of episodes don't even have that. True, the writer keeps pressing
this underlying story on us which she uses to tie the skits together,
but forget it, it's rubbish.
Unfortunately that method won't help you with references in future
episodes to the fact that Xander left Anya at the altar, but one
episode at a time. It's all about whatever gets you through the
episode. There is enough good material here for me to rate it Decent.
It's my 115th favourite BtVS episode, 16th best in season 6
Apteryx
Rincewind
>The very first thing I said once this started was "let's hope no
>one leaves anyone at the altar. I don't know if I could take that.
>But if they're going to use a cliché, I assume they'll at least
>subvert it."
I was wondering how long it would take for the word "cliché" to finally make
an appearance in your S6 reviews. It happened a lot later than I thought.
I have a feeling that if one day you rewatch the entire season from the
beginning, knowing the big picture and how the small parts fit in it, the
word "cliché" will pop into your mind a lot more often than it did on this
first viewing.
>Words cannot adequately convey my distaste and contempt here, and
>attempting to do so may only expose my weaknesses as a writer, but
>I'm going to try my best. I don't buy this. Not for an instant.
>he wedding is crashed by pure plot device, an external force altering
>things for no adequate dramatic reason. Xander decides that his
>deepest desire is to not do anything that could hurt Anya, so he rips
>her heart out and sends her running back to D'Hoffryn. Yeah, I can
>really see how his thought processes would work that way. Note my
>employment of sarcasm, a rhetorical device in which a sentence is used
>to express the opposite of its stated meaning.
>
>Part of the hell of it is, S6 has attempted to set this up so that it
>doesn't come out of nowhere, but it's been done so in such a
>hopelessly inept manner that it'd be hilarious if it weren't
>depressing. We've seen Xander get apprehensive about matrimony, and
>then convincingly seen such fears written off as the perfectly normal
>kind. Lately we've seen him get annoyed with the wedding, and then
>we've been reminded that the wedding does not equal the marriage.
>There's even OMWF, in which Xander's need for everything to be just
>right causes that episode's single biggest flaw and is never properly
>addressed. The end result is that the great fears that supposedly
>shape this decision do in fact come out of nowhere, and are entirely
>unconvincing.
I totally agree.
>Bottom line: this doesn't feel organic to the characters involved.
>This feels like the writers wanted yet another episode to end with
>someone sobbing. They attempt to elicit emotion through clichés, like
>the old image of the jilted bride in her wedding dress, distraught.
>It's manufactured tragedy. The polar opposite of the emotional
>honesty that BTVS breakups usually provide, what we have here is
>hackneyed melodrama of the lowest order. Garbage like the end of
>"Hell's Bells" should be beneath _Buffy_, for the show's own
>sake if not for the viewer's.
>
>I'm feeling like I was way too kind.
You were.
Rincewind.
--
Lines you'll never hear on Buffy:
XANDER: Hey, here's a novel idea... maybe we should try to address one or
two problems in our relationship BEFORE our actual wedding day.
MBangel10 (Melissa)
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 15: "Hell's Bells"
> (or "What a tale of terror, now, their turbulency tells!")
> Writer: Rebecca Rand Kirshner
> Director: David Solomon
>
I believe that I've only watched HB all the way through (with no fast
forwarding involved) twice. That was enough for me. There are some good
bits in there but the majority of the episode left me cold. It's the
only show in the entire season that I can't rewatch from beginning to
end w/o cringing. Well no, that's not entirely true, AYW makes me
cringe a little bit but at least I can watch it all the way through.
You nailed a lot of the reasons why I have so many problems with this
one. Even though I had a feeling Xander and Anya wouldn't actually go
through with the wedding, I wasn't expecting this. They could have made
the break-up a whole lot more convincing and more sincere than they
did. Other than the Buffy/Xander, Dawn, and Spike/Buffy
moments....Hell's Bells was a complete and utter mess.
> One-sentence summary: All smoke and mirrors.
>
> AOQ rating: Weak
I agree.
peachy ashie passion
> Words cannot adequately convey my distaste and contempt here, and
> attempting to do so may only expose my weaknesses as a writer, but
> I'm going to try my best. I don't buy this. Not for an instant.
> The wedding is crashed by pure plot device, an external force altering
> things for no adequate dramatic reason. Xander decides that his
> deepest desire is to not do anything that could hurt Anya, so he rips
> her heart out and sends her running back to D'Hoffryn. Yeah, I can
> really see how his thought processes would work that way. Note my
> employment of sarcasm, a rhetorical device in which a sentence is used
> to express the opposite of its stated meaning.
>
Oh. My. Gawd. That last two lines there - GREAT writing.
>
> I'm feeling like I was way too kind.
>
Yeah, but you were funny doing it.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> I don't think I've seen this one since it first aired, and I've no
> plans to re-watch... like, ever! Too much angst - way, way worse than
> 'Becoming'!
Wow. Again, I think this is the opposite of something like "Becoming,"
which mostly "earns" its angst. But if it was so hearbreaking for you,
then it probably worked well, regardless of whether you can "enjoy"
watching it.
> 1) Anya was a vengeance demon for 1100 years, merrily destroying people
> (the 'Evil Thing' was quite simply just a guy who'd cheated on his girl
> friend or something... remember that Anyanka first showed up to help
> Cordy?). She has never shown a moments remorse for what she did, as
> opposed to say Angel who's crushed by guilt:
>
> Angel: "Funny. You would think with all the - people I've maimed -
> and killed I wouldn't be able to remember every - single - one.
> (Five by Five)
>
> Demon: Stewart Burns. Philanderer! You'd think you'd remember. I
> remember you. But then again, you ruined my life.
> Anya: You were a ... I punished you.
> Demon: That's right. Some hussy I'd been taking around summons you,
> next thing I know, I look like this and I'm being tortured in another
> dimension.
> Anya: I forgot.
> (Hells Bells)
>
> Does Anya really deserve a happy ending? Of course she does (because I
> adore her), but looking at it completely objectively, does she really?
> Was her past 'wiped clean' when she became human (a la Angel's Shanshu
> prophecy)?
That's a good thought, and has given me a (marginally) higher opinion
of the ending - I hadn't quite considered how this ties in to the
overall story of S6 from Anya's persepctive. And whether or not it's
"deserved," one of the themes of the year has been characters' pasts
catching up with them, and seeing them have to deal with and suffer for
things that they've maybe been avoiding for awhile.
Disagreed completely about Xander's side making any sense. More later,
maybe.
-AOQ
Rowan Hawthorn
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 15: "Hell's Bells"
> (or "What a tale of terror, now, their turbulency tells!")
> Writer: Rebecca Rand Kirshner
> Director: David Solomon
>
> horror with regards to the bridesmaids' dresses.
And I completely agree with Willow: as best man(?!) she *should* have
been "all Marlene Dietrichey in a dashing tuxedo number." Would have
been the highlight of the episode. As it is, I have to go with the
following:
> Interspersed with that, we have a few tender moments amongst our
> heroes, which don't tend to stand out but are acceptable.
What! No reference to the fleeting, giggling glimpses between Willow
and Tara - and then, Willow surreptitiously copping a feel while pulling
Tara away from the brawl? (She's a breast girl, y'know...)
>
> AOQ rating: Weak
>
Pretty much, yeah.
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Elisi
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Elisi wrote:
>
> > I don't think I've seen this one since it first aired, and I've no
> > plans to re-watch... like, ever! Too much angst - way, way worse than
> > 'Becoming'!
>
> Wow. Again, I think this is the opposite of something like "Becoming,"
> which mostly "earns" its angst. But if it was so hearbreaking for you,
> then it probably worked well, regardless of whether you can "enjoy"
> watching it.
Well the thing with 'Becoming' is that B/A is always over the top and
melodramatic. Buffy faces a terrible choice once Angel re-gains his
soul, but the whole thing is very engineered and fairy-tale like.
'Hells Bells' isn't - of course it's stupidly over the top because
that's how things are done on BtVS, but the choice Xander makes is one
that's far too real, and that's why it hurts more.
Hey, you're welcome to disagree - I'm not trying to defend the episode,
but just to make it more palatable. What I will do is point out he
irony of Xander's choice - he's trying to avoid becoming his father,
but in doing so accomplishes it.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> shape this decision do in fact come out of nowhere, and are entirely
> unconvincing.
they come out of standing there watching his drunken parents fight
and fearing that as yet another harris
xanders mariage will become another harris marriage
of years of pain and degradation
its not whether he thinks the vision of his killing anya is true
its whether he thinks the marriage will be killing anya for years to come
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
Opus the Penguin
> The very first thing I said once this started was "let's hope no
> one leaves anyone at the altar. I don't know if I could take that.
> But if they're going to use a cliché, I assume they'll at least
> subvert it."
Exactly. What a drag this episode was. Xander and Anya had been doing
well together. There was nothing to keep them apart except the
capricious stupidity of one Joss Whedon sanctimoniously pretending to
give us what we "need" when he was really just jerking us around.
I've thought forward to this despicable ep every time you've
commented about how Xander and Anya seem to be working things out and
dealing well with their jitters and forming an ever more solid and
stable relationship. Yes. That's exactly what was happening until the
people in charge decided to pluck this piece of junk out of thin air.
"Weak" is too kind. This episode was stone cold bad. It is to me the
worst Buffy episode ever. I actively hate it.
Just to be clear, I'm not a Xander/Anya shipper or anything. If the
show had broken them up in an organic way that arose out of the plot
and the characters, I would have accepted that.
--
Opus the Penguin
The best darn penguin in all of Usenet
William George Ferguson
wrote:
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>
>
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Six, Episode 15: "Hell's Bells"
>(or "What a tale of terror, now, their turbulency tells!")
>Writer: Rebecca Rand Kirshner
>Director: David Solomon
>
>The very first thing I said once this started was "let's hope no
>one leaves anyone at the altar. I don't know if I could take that.
>But if they're going to use a cliché, I assume they'll at least
>subvert it."
Yes, let's get the biggest single objection I have to the episode done with
at the top.
I have no problem with Xander not going through with the wedding. As you
note, they've been working at trying to set up the groundwork for that
decision all season. My big problem is Xander running away and leaving
Anya twisting in the wind, to face her friends, and His relatives, alone.
That's pretty much unforgiveable. To put it in terms that Joss Whedon
would understand, Xander just killed a planet full of asperagus people.
>This one starts off pretty well, with our heroes displaying appropriate
>horror with regards to the bridesmaids' dresses. Apparently just the
>sight of a supernatural old man after suggestive dialogue is enough to
>qualify for the end-of teaser suspense moment.
I do like the exchange between Buffy and Willow here. Willow points out
that as Best Man, she should be in a tux, and Buffy basically says that if
she has to wear the damned thing, so does Willow.
>I made a comment last week about how hearing about the hellish antics
>that'd happen when the two families collided was more fun than
>actually watching it, and I stand by that. The early sequences manage
>a few smiles with Xander's dad successfully managing, when shown in
>small doses, that trick of irritating everyone except the audience with
>his unplumbed depths of crass. Plus, Clem is in a few scenes. Hi,
>Clem!
I also liked Dawn and demon-boy bonding over the suckiness of relatives.
>I'm feeling like I was way too kind.
>So...
>
>One-sentence summary: All smoke and mirrors.
>
>AOQ rating: Weak
>
>[Season Six so far:
>1) "Bargaining" - Decent
>2) "After Life" - Good
>3) "Flooded" - Decent
>4) "Life Serial" - Good
>5) "All The Way" - Good
>6) "Once More, With Feeling" - Excellent
>7) "Tabula Rasa" - Good
>8) "Smashed" - Decent
>9) "Wrecked" - Good
>10) "Gone" - Decent
>11) "Doublemeat Palace" - Decent
>12) "Dead Things" - Good
>13) "Older And Faraway" - Good
>14) "As You Were" - Decent
>15) "Hell's Bells" - Weak]
Strangely, I didn't rate this as low as I did Doublemeat Palace or Wrecked.
Looking back, I'm not sure why. The more I thought about Xander running of
into the sudden magic rain (it was a sunny day before), the more it
bothered me. As I said, it wasn't his not going through with it, it was
his leaving Anya to face the consequences of his decision by herself.
--
"Timothy Dalton should get an Oscar and
beat Sean Connery over the head with it!"
-The Other Guy (you know, Tucker's brother)
burt...@hotmail.com
> On 20 Aug 2006 22:27:21 -0700, "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> >threads.
> >
> >
> >BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> >Season Six, Episode 15: "Hell's Bells"
> >(or "What a tale of terror, now, their turbulency tells!")
> >Writer: Rebecca Rand Kirshner
> >Director: David Solomon
> >
> >The very first thing I said once this started was "let's hope no
> >one leaves anyone at the altar. I don't know if I could take that.
> >But if they're going to use a cliché, I assume they'll at least
> >subvert it."
>
> Yes, let's get the biggest single objection I have to the episode done with
> at the top.
>
> I have no problem with Xander not going through with the wedding. As you
> note, they've been working at trying to set up the groundwork for that
> decision all season. My big problem is Xander running away and leaving
> Anya twisting in the wind, to face her friends, and His relatives, alone.
> That's pretty much unforgiveable. To put it in terms that Joss Whedon
> would understand, Xander just killed a planet full of asperagus people.
I don't understand why this is so unforgivable. Other characters on the
show have done things much, much worse than this. Hell, Xander himself
has done worse. He summoned the demon in OMWF and people died as a
result. Killing people is a lot worse than leaving someone at the altar.
Elisi
It's the same reason that Warren choosing Katrina was worse than if
he'd chosen a random girl. It's personal. If Xander had _intended_ to
kill people in OMWF it would have been different. (And I concur that
leaving her to face people (rather than doing the announcement himself)
is what makes it even worse. )
It's sort of the same as asking why it was so hard for Buffy to kill
Angel. A vampire is a vampire, right?
EGK
<wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>I have no problem with Xander not going through with the wedding. As you
>note, they've been working at trying to set up the groundwork for that
>decision all season. My big problem is Xander running away and leaving
>Anya twisting in the wind, to face her friends, and His relatives, alone.
>That's pretty much unforgiveable. To put it in terms that Joss Whedon
>would understand, Xander just killed a planet full of asperagus people.
Another in season six character assasination episodes. I realize these
things bothered some of us more than they did others but it's probably the
chief reason I didn't like the season as a whole.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"There would be a lot more civility in this world if people
didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you"
(Calvin and Hobbes)
Elisi
> One-sentence summary: All smoke and mirrors.
>
> AOQ rating: Weak
Because my memory is so hazy, I went to look up my friend molly_may's
review of this episode. It's rather good so I decided to do a copy and
paste job, cutting out spoilers obviously:
------------------------
ANYA
You're proposing to me 'cause we're
gonna die! And, and, you think it's
romantic and sexy and you know
you're not gonna have to go through
with it, cause the world's gonna end!
XANDER
I'm proposing to you, Anya,
because it's not.
ANYA
You can't know that.
XANDER
I believe it. I think we're gonna get
through this. I think I'm gonna live
a long and silly life and I'm not
interested in doing that without
you around.
The sad thing is, Anya was right all along. I do believe Xander loved
Anya and wanted to propose to her, but he hadn't really thought through
what a marriage would mean. The vision that the demon gives to him
seems to be an amalgamation of his worst fears: Buffy is dead, Anya is
unfaithful (not just unfaithful; she's cheating on him with a demon),
and Xander himself is unable to work and has become an alcoholic. We've
come back around to "Restless", where Xander's worst fear is becoming
his father, and for the first time onscreen we see what that means - a
man who belittles his wife and son, drinks to much, flirts with younger
women, and is quick to violence. A very human monster. In fact,
throughout the episode, Anya's demon friends are more well-behaved than
Xander's family, only fighting after they're goaded into it. Xander
does have some of his father's faults. He's quick to judge and he can
be cruel. But it's hard to imagine Mr. Harris comforting Buffy with the
"What would Buffy do?" pep talk as Xander does in "The Freshman".
Xander has a core of goodness in him that his father either lacks, or
lost long ago. He's also got a lot of anger in him though, and he
sometimes lashes out at the wrong people, and for the wrong reasons. I
think he really struggles with trying to keep those darker parts of his
personality tamped down, because he sees so much of his father in
himself, but sometimes he lets that anger overwhelm his innate
goodness, leading to him lashing out like he did with Buffy in "Dead
Man's Party" and "Revelations". I tend to think that Xander gets
underrated as a character because his struggles are so much more
ordinary than the other character's. He can't blame his emotional
difficulties on being a demon or having an addiction to magic, but his
fight to be a good person is still a vital part of the overall story.
Xander still has doubts about Anya, which is evidenced in his vision
when he sees the evidence (in their daughter's appearance) that she is
cheating on him with a demon. He never really came to terms with Anya's
past, and it scares him. After he first meets Halfrek back in
"Doublemeat Palace", he asks both Buffy and Anya if Anya used to have
the same sort of demonic appearance. He deals pretty well with the
demon guests before the wedding, but it seems clear that he's far more
comfortable pretending that Anya was always a human. Xander's worldview
is still very black and white: humans are good and demons are bad. And
why should he feel any differently, when for the past six years demons
have been trying to kill him and his friends on pretty much a nightly
basis? Even some of the demons he's met in a friendly capacity, like
Halfrek, have tried to harm him and the Scoobies later on. He's always
glossed over the details of Anya's past, turning it into a joke or
ignoring it completely, never thinking about what the consequences of
the things she did might have been, or wondering at her lack of
remorse. While the vision that the demon gives him at the wedding is
first and foremost about the kind of monster he fears he'll turn into,
there's also the reminder of the kind of monster Anya once was, and
Xander is still not entirely prepared to deal with that. He's right to
call off the wedding, because he's not ready for this sort of
commitment. The only thing he does that I find nearly unforgiveable is
leave Anya alone to tell the guests and call off the wedding. Her
lonely walk down the aisle is wrenching.
I think of S6 as being mostly about Buffy and Spike's story, and to a
lesser extent Willow, but in the background of all that, Anya finally
becomes a fully-developed character during this season. In the past she
was used too often just as comic relief (with notable exceptions, like
in "The Body"), but aside from liking sex and money, her real
personality seemed sketchy. But starting with OMWF, Anya seems more
fully-drawn, and because of that her pain in "Hell's Bells" is vivid.
It doesn't hurt that Emma Caulfield does an outstanding job. <spoilers
snipped - but remember: the story isn't over yet!> She is counting on
this marriage to give her an identity and a proper place in the world.
More than that, she loves Xander; her speech about how lucky she is to
get to spend the rest of her life with her best friend is heartbreaking
in retrospective. It's notable too that this is the first time that
Anya is really forced to face one of the victims she affected when she
was a vengeance demon.
SFX magazine voted HB the worst episode of BTVS of all time, which
seems pretty funny to me since it comes right after the real worst
episode, AYW. I'm not sure what could make this episode seem like the
worst to those who chose it - Xander and Anya both make decisions that
are in-character, even if they are painful, the performances are good,
and there are a couple of very nice scenes. I like both Willow and
Buffy's one-on-one scenes with Xander before the wedding, both of which
nicely highlight the affection and history between the characters.
Dawn's flirtation with the demon boy is cute, as is Tara advising Anya
("I'm not sure you should say 'sex poodle' in your vows"), and SMG is
completely charming as Buffy attempts to entertain the wedding guests
with charades and juggling. I am also fond of Willow suggesting that
they cover the dead demon's body with flowers in order to hide it.
Occasionally she is callous and strange. It may not all add up to being
a great episode, but it is a good one.
It's probably needless to say, but my favorite part is the Spike/Buffy
scene. The segue into their scene together is the old man saying to
Xander "Sometimes two people, all they bring each other is pain", but
in this scene all Buffy and Spike seem to have for each other is
affection. Spike acknowledges that it's good to see Buffy happy, and
Buffy acknowledges that it hurts to see him with somebody else. It's
almost like they've briefly returned to their pre-OMWF,
post-Intervention relationship where they are capable of being friends.
In the script, there is a brief explanation of Giles's whereabouts:
A STRING QUARTET is setting up near the front. And the whole place is
decorated with BEAUTIFUL FLOWERS.
DAWN
I thought Xander and Anya couldn't
afford flowers.
WILLOW
Giles sent 'em. Aren't they
gorgeous?
DAWN
Yeah.
They stop to smell the flowers.
DAWN (cont'd)
I wish Giles was here.
WILLOW
Me too. And I'm sure he'd much
rather be here than fighting that
nasty demon--
DAWN
Da-e-mon. In England it's daemon.
WILLOW
Daemon, too right. But Giles' got
responsibilities. And so Anya and
Xander have flowers. And flowers.
And more flowers. Ooh, it's going
to be so pretty!
It's too bad that's cut from the episode, since it seems odd that Giles
wouldn't come to the wedding. Of course, it's easy to fanwank that he's
attempting to cut all his ties with Sunnydale.
-----------------------
Hope you liked. :)
Terry
news:1156138041.7...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 15: "Hell's Bells"
> (or "What a tale of terror, now, their turbulency tells!")
> Writer: Rebecca Rand Kirshner
> Director: David Solomon
The only bit I found heartbreakingly funny was the "future" couple's kids.
One is very definitely *not* Xander's.
- Terry
Clairel
--I've been much too busy lately to keep up with the review
discussions, but I had to comment on the S/B scene in Hell's Bells.
AOQ, your perception that it's exceptionally well-scripted is right on
the mark: Joss himself rewrote the S/B encounter completely, scrapping
Rebecca Rand Kirshner's version of their encounter which basically just
consisted of cold glares and mean, sniping remarks. In the RRK
version, Spike makes innuendoes about knowing his date "in the Biblical
sense," and is arrogant and un-apologetic all the way through -- as is
Buffy. I much prefer Joss's version, with the kindness shown on both
sides. I've always thought of it as Joss's way of showing how sweet an
S/B pairing *could* be if there were no obstacles in the way of it.
Elsewhere on this thread, I was amazed to read that some magazine
listed Hell's Bells as the worst BtVS episode of all time. I never
disliked it. I found the amusing parts amusing, and the serious parts
touching. I liked the fact that some small attempt was made to face up
to the horrible things that Anya for 1000 years was responsible for.
(The trapped-in-the-house spell in "Older and Far Away" sort of helps
reinforce this, since it's evident how harmful Vengeance Demon spells
can be even when the Demon who wreaks them claims to actually be caring
about the feelings of the person who made the wish. Dawn could have
died, trapped in that house -- and Halfrek wouldn't have cared a bit!
"Justice Demon" indeed.) The punishment meted out to the Chicago
philanderer was in no way condign, and it shouldn't be surprising or
objectionable that the cruelty of it eventually rebounds back on Anya.
If people are going to be hard on Spike because of his pre-chip
vampiric deeds, then I want them to be equally hard on Anya for the
terrible things she did over the past 1000 years. Xander always
brushed them aside whenever Anya would boast about them, but his
hypocrisy in doing so makes me sick. The thing that has to be
remembered about vampires and vengeance demons is that hardly anybody
ever chooses to become a vampire, but becoming a Vengeance Demon is a
matter of choice. When Willow had the choice offered to her, in
"Something Blue," she turned it down.
Somebody on this thread said that Hell's Bells is as angsty as
"Becoming 2": to me that's ludicrous. Buffy (and even Angel, in a way)
were suffering unjustly in that episode. In Hell's Bells, I don't feel
either Xander or Anya went through any kind of unjust affliction. It's
right that Anya should have her unearned bliss ruined after all she did
for 1000 years, and since Xander has been brushing aside all of the
horrible vengeance-wreaking then it's right that he should be pulled in
to the whole mess and have to suffer a bit, also. The way the plot
worked out in Hell's Bells was quite satisfying to me.
It's remarkable, AOQ, that you rank Hell's Bells below As You Were. Of
all BtVS episodes, As You Were is the one I despise most. If there is
a rating worse than "Weak," then it should get that rating! Every
scene in which Riley and/or his plastic wife Sam was on screen was
unbearably, excruciatingly horrible. But I really don't have any
problem with Hell's Bells. It held my attention and entertained me
satisfyingly all the way through.
But though I call the difference between your ranking and my ranking
"remarkable," I can't really call it surprising. It's something I've
come to expect by now.
Honestly, though, weren't Riley and Sam at all a pain to you in the
previous episode? I mean, you talked about how boring Riley's and
Buffy's relationship was -- you have SOME of the right instincts!
Clairel
Rowan Hawthorn
Well, unless there's a little more *genuine* monster blood in his family
than even Xander knows about...
Michael Ikeda
news:1156138041.7...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
> review threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 15: "Hell's Bells"
> (or "What a tale of terror, now, their turbulency tells!")
> Writer: Rebecca Rand Kirshner
> Director: David Solomon
>
> The very first thing I said once this started was "let's hope no
> one leaves anyone at the altar. I don't know if I could take
> that. But if they're going to use a cliché, I assume they'll at
> least subvert it."
In a way it does. The villain trying to sabotage the wedding turns
out to be right: the groom ISN'T ready to get married.
>
>
> In the end we take a second to sabotage the drama we've built up
> by having it just be an Evil Thing. At least the idea of having
> lots of be-cursed monsters gunning for Anyanka is fine. The
> fight scene is pretty good, even if the demon-voice speech
> isn't. But then, since the visions came out of Xander's fears,
> he then decides that it means they shouldn't get married.
I think you're misreading this. This isn't a moment of panic. It's
an epiphany.
Xander has been in denial about the marriage all season. He's told
himself that the giant flashing warning signs were just typical
nerves. And he mostly managed to convince himself of this.
The combination of the horribly plausible vision of the future and
the close proximity of another miserable marriage breaks down the
wall of denial. It forces Xander to the realization that he simply
isn't ready for marriage. And once he gets this realization he can't
go through with the wedding. Ultimately, going through with the
wedding would probably be even crueler to Anya than what he actually
does.
(And yes, Xander should have been the one to make the announcement.
But I don't think it's really a matter of choice there. I think he's
literally not capable of facing the roomful of wedding guests at that
moment.)
Two other notes.
1) The Willow/Tara reconciliation continues to progress. Their
flirting during the bridal preparations was fun.
2) A brief but important little moment, right after Buffy calls
Spike on trying to make her jealous.
SPIKE: (small smile) Is it working?
BUFFY: (quietly) A little. It doesn't change anything ... but if
you're wildly curious, yeah, it hurts.
SPIKE: (softly) I'm sorry. (remembers himself) Or, Good!
Spike automatically apologizes, before remembering that an Evil
Vampire isn't SUPPOSED to feel bad about hurting someone.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 15: "Hell's Bells"
> (or "What a tale of terror, now, their turbulency tells!")
> Writer: Rebecca Rand Kirshner
> Director: David Solomon
.
> This one starts off pretty well, with our heroes displaying appropriate
> horror with regards to the bridesmaids' dresses.
I like Anya's gasp when she sees Buffy and Willow in the dresses, and the
glance B and W exchange -- Is she as horrified as us? Can we find new
dresses in the next hour? -- before Anya gasps "You guys look so
beautiful!" And then she says "This is the happiest day of my whole
life!" and there is an immediate crash of thunder. And they're careful to
mention Anya's thousand years of demonhood, just to keep that in
everyone's mind.
> I made a comment last week about how hearing about the hellish antics
> that'd happen when the two families collided was more fun than
> actually watching it, and I stand by that.
Oh, yes. The scenes of Xander's family bickering among themselves were
mostly good, but the ones of the Harrises fighting with the demons were
not nearly as good, and when the fighting became literal it got *really*
irritating. Though the part when the fistfight starts up again, after the
fake Xander is killed and everyone applauds, is amusing in an over-the-top
sort of way.
Speaking of the Harrises, the actor playing Xander's dad in Hell's Bells
is not the same one who appeared in Xander's dream in Restless, nor is the
character portrayed in the same way. This Mr. Harris is nasty and
sarcastic and belittles his wife and son, whereas the Restless Mr. Harris
was a more straightforward angry, domineering working class stereotype.
I'm not sure which portrayal is better. But it was a good idea to keep
Mr. Harris in his tuxedo for the whole episode, so we can't see if he
normally wears a suit or a shirt with a nametag. This keeps the emphasis
on his personality, rather than his social class or income.
> Before we get to any bitter turnings, let me say that the episode had
> me at this point, especially since the followup to "all they bring
> each other is pain" is Buffy and Spike. They may be doomed to be one
> of those couples who're more fun for me when they're pining for
> each other than when they're actually together, since this is a great
> little exchange, very well scripted and performed. Funny, but only in
> a better-to-laugh-than-mope kinda way. "But it hurts?"
> "Yeah." "Thanks."
I liked Buffy's line about Spike's date: "But she seems like a very nice
..." girl? person? no -- "attempt at making me jealous."
> I'm ashamed to do so, that I did laugh at Buffy's dissertation
> about the mini-tor. As everyone should know, I generally dislike that
> long-running gag of Buffy stammering out absurd excuses and having
> people believe them. I think the sheer unadulterated excess is what
> made it into a guilty laugh here.
The mini-tor was weak. Buffy keeping the crowd entertained with charades
and juggling was worth several laughs, though.
> In the end we take a second to sabotage the drama we've built up by
> having it just be an Evil Thing. At least the idea of having lots of
> be-cursed monsters gunning for Anyanka is fine.
This part doesn't get enough attention (usually; it looks like several
people have mentioned it in this thread). Anya has cruised through the
last couple of seasons without feeling any apparent regret for her demony
past. She never really rejects her demon past. She even invites
D'Hoffryn to her wedding! I mean, come on. Some demons aren't evil, but
D'Hoffryn? I love Anya, but it was high time for her past to be
addressed. That it came at the hands of a sort of vengeance demon was a
nice ironic touch. But unfortunately, Anya still doesn't seem to get it.
She suffers from the demon's trick, but there's still no sign that she
feels remorse for her own demon days. Judging from the last scene, she
might even go in the opposite direction.
As for the big question, Xander's decision to stop the wedding ... eh, I'm
ambivalent. I don't think it was done very well, but I don't hate it as
much as AOQ does either.
The key here is that Xander felt he wasn't ready, and that his unreadiness
meant they ran the risk of a truly disastrous marriage. Even though the
visions were fake, they apparently made Xander realize that a disastrous
marriage didn't really feel unlikely, deep down inside. He couldn't look
at the visions, or at his own parents' horrible relationship, and say with
confidence that that wouldn't happen to them. (Note the way he keeps
glancing at his parents fighting as he talks to Anya. They are a
real-life example of what he fears.) That's why he decided to call it
off: he thought there was a real chance it was a mistake, and "If this is
a mistake, it's forever, and ... I don't want to hurt you. Not that way."
Now, there was a *lot* of setup throughout the season for Xander not being
ready. Unfortunately, almost all of it (with a fwe partial exceptions,
like their song in OMWF and the teaser of DmP) is presented as ordinary,
generic pre-wedding jitters. We see him intimidated by the idea of buying
a house or stressed about table arrangements at the reception, but there
is little that shows him specifically worried that his and Anya's
relationship won't work in the long run. Just one scene of him confessing
a few fears to Willow, or even starting to confess and then clamming up,
would have made a big difference. As it is, despite all the tons of setup
and foreshadowing it still feels like there wasn't enough to justify this
scene. Quantity can't substitute for quality here. But I at least give
credit to ME for *trying* to set this one up properly. And unlike many
fans, I think Xander made the right decision. If he felt sincere, serious
misgivings, then he was right to clal it off, even at the very last
minute.
(As for the bit about leaving a heartbroken Anya to explain things to the
wedding guests, that wasn't really Xander's decision. Anya was the one
who walked back into the main room, and under the circumstances Xander
could hardly follow her. I wonder what Anya said to everyone? Probably
just "Xander decided not to get married. I don't understand why. Please
go away now.")
How many people were surprised that Xander and Anya didn't get married?
With all the little scenes of Xander's nervousness, by AYW I expected that
he would pull out of the wedding. Then I saw the bathroom scene of AYW
and thought no, this is Xander's epiphany, and everything will be okay
now. I continued thinking that right up to the last act of HB. Thus ME
managed to surprise me with the very plot development I had been expecting
for weeks.
> AOQ rating: Weak
I give it a Decent. There were a lot of great scenes among the Scoobies,
and a pretty good one between Buffy and Spike. The X-A breakup was a plot
development that pretty much had to happen, even if it wasn't done as much
skill as I'd expect from BtVS. If they had worked more on Xander's
reasons for calling off the wedding, and cut down the "circus folk" jokes
and Harris-demon fighting by say 50%, this could have been a Good.
--Chris
ps: Oh, and this ep marked another little turning point for me. It was
the very first one that I discussed on atbvs. (Under a slightly different
address.)
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
burt...@hotmail.com
I don't think that makes any difference. What Warren did would have
been just as horrible no matter who his victim was. The "personal"
nature of a crime has nothing to do with its severity.
> If Xander had _intended_ to
> kill people in OMWF it would have been different. (And I concur that
> leaving her to face people (rather than doing the announcement himself)
> is what makes it even worse. )
I agree that Xander didn't intend to kill anyone, but he's guilty of
manslaughter at the least. And manslaughter is a lot worse than leaving
someone at the altar in my book.
Stephen Tempest
>The sad thing is, Anya was right all along. I do believe Xander loved
>Anya and wanted to propose to her, but he hadn't really thought through
>what a marriage would mean.
I agree: in fact, I'd say that Xander wanted to _be_engaged_ to Anya.
He hadn't really thought through the fact that getting engaged is
supposed to be a stepping stone to getting married. You can tell by
his horror in 'All The Way' when Giles starts talking about mortgages
and property and commitment and stuff.
>The vision that the demon gives to him
>seems to be an amalgamation of his worst fears: Buffy is dead, Anya is
>unfaithful (not just unfaithful; she's cheating on him with a demon),
So far, nobody has commented on one of the show's slyest bits of
humour: Xander and Anya's horrible, brat-like children are called
Sarah and Joss...
(or technically Josh, but that's a mistake everybody seems to make
anyway).
Incidentally, it seems that Sarah is _Clem's_ daughter....
>It's probably needless to say, but my favorite part is the Spike/Buffy
>scene. The segue into their scene together is the old man saying to
>Xander "Sometimes two people, all they bring each other is pain", but
>in this scene all Buffy and Spike seem to have for each other is
>affection. Spike acknowledges that it's good to see Buffy happy, and
>Buffy acknowledges that it hurts to see him with somebody else.
And Spike's instant reaction is to say "I'm sorry" before he remembers
he's supposed to be Evil...
One thing I did wonder is whether the woman with him was another
vampire, or just someone he picked up in a bar, or what.
As a general point on this episode, the feeling I got from it is that
it was a 'Friday afternoon job'. The writers presumably knew many
months earlier that they'd be breaking up Xander and Anya rather than
having them get married, but I don't think they'd actually decided on
the details.
So they kept on putting in foreshadowing about them not working as a
couple to lay the groundwork; but because they wanted some suspense
and for the break-up to come as a surprise, they also needed to put in
scenes of them patching their differences and being in love. And of
course, each writer would apply their own emphases, and in the end the
message became obscured.
Then for this actual episode, it seems to me that after all that
preparation there was a sense of "oh well, here we are, we need to get
them to split up this week. How shall we do it? And they just kicked
out a join-the-dots script instead of creating something with artistic
integrity.
I'd agree that this and 'Gone' are the weakest episodes of the season.
Fortunately, the bad patch is coming to an end now.
(Warning; that sentiment may be considered controversial by some.<g>)
Stephen
Jeff Jacoby
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu <chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu> wrote:
[snip]
If one adopts the perspective Xander not just saw the
visions but *lived* them, literally feeling the shock
in his hands as he hit Anya with the skillet, then you
can see how he would be shaken to the core by them.
Although acknowledging the visions were faked, his glimpses
of his parents told him they could be frighteningly real
nonetheless.
As bad as leaving her was, it was the lesser of the two
of two evils...in his mind, at least.
(Had someone like Giles been around to kick some sense
into him, maybe things would have been different?)
> (As for the bit about leaving a heartbroken Anya to explain things to the
> wedding guests, that wasn't really Xander's decision. Anya was the one
> who walked back into the main room, and under the circumstances Xander
> could hardly follow her. I wonder what Anya said to everyone? Probably
> just "Xander decided not to get married. I don't understand why. Please
> go away now.")
>
> How many people were surprised that Xander and Anya didn't get married?
I kinda was. BtVS has so often dragged its characters
through endless misery, never giving anyone a happy
ending, it has created its own cliche. Ant at the same
time the show has often taken cliches and turned them on
their head. Giving a Xander and Anya a happy day would
have been a nice twist.
Jeff
Arbitrar Of Quality
> But the episode doesn't earn the
> ending, there is no convincing explanation of why Xander would suddenly
> be so cruel, or so dense that he doesn't know he's being cruel. The
> very fact that they have shown Xander so often worried but still
> carrying on to the wedding day undermines the explanations offered.
Very well said.
> But you've paid for all the episodes in the set, so you might as well
> find some way to enjoy them if you can. My method for enjoying this one
> is to forget the story, and treat all the better scenes as skits in a
> variety show. There's a lot of good skits there - pretty much
> everything Buffy is in, much of Dawn's, Anya's vows, Spike's date. A
> lot of episodes don't even have that. True, the writer keeps pressing
> this underlying story on us which she uses to tie the skits together,
> but forget it, it's rubbish.
>
> Unfortunately that method won't help you with references in future
> episodes to the fact that Xander left Anya at the altar, but one
> episode at a time. It's all about whatever gets you through the
> episode. There is enough good material here for me to rate it Decent.
> It's my 115th favourite BtVS episode, 16th best in season 6
See, I could do that approach for WTWTA, as discussed at the time.
There are others too, like "Teacher's Pet" and maybe "Killed By Death,"
where the nominal A-story is worthless but the episode as a whole has
some good skits in it. In those episodes, though, the plot is one-off
wackiness that can convincingly be said not to really matter. Here,
the wedding story is not only atrocious, but it seems like a pivotal
moment in two main characters' story arcs, and can't be so easily
dismissed. It drags down the entire series by existing, and I could
thus never rank it above Weak. The good parts are enough to keep it
out of Bad territory, though.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> --
> Lines you'll never hear on Buffy:
> XANDER: Hey, here's a novel idea... maybe we should try to address one or
> two problems in our relationship BEFORE our actual wedding day.
Heehee.
-AOQ
Stephen Tempest
>I agree that Xander didn't intend to kill anyone, but he's guilty of
>manslaughter at the least. And manslaughter is a lot worse than leaving
>someone at the altar in my book.
The thing is, for any crime _more_ serious than manslaughter, the
criminal *does* need to intend to kill someone. So your 'at the
least' is wrong.
As for manslaughter, you need to prove *gross* negligence. "To cause
death by any lack of due care will not amount to manslaughter. A very
high degree of negligence is necessary for the establishment of a
crime."
Xander performed a magic ritual to bring about an evening of music and
songs for himself and Anya. He didn't even expect that it would
affect anyone else - let alone that it would kill anyone. And before
you say it, characters in the Buffyverse use magic all the time
(practically once an episode by this stage) with no obvious signs of
people burning and dying. So he'd have no real reason to suspect this
spell would be any different.
You could possibly bring a case against Giles for failing to label his
stock properly...
Stephen
Arbitrar Of Quality
> "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >The sad thing is, Anya was right all along. I do believe Xander loved
> >Anya and wanted to propose to her, but he hadn't really thought through
> >what a marriage would mean.
>
> I agree: in fact, I'd say that Xander wanted to _be_engaged_ to Anya.
> He hadn't really thought through the fact that getting engaged is
> supposed to be a stepping stone to getting married. You can tell by
> his horror in 'All The Way' when Giles starts talking about mortgages
> and property and commitment and stuff.
Or you can just assume that he likes the idea of being married, but
doesn't do well with taking too many changes at once or with thinking
too hard and obsessively about the future the way Anya does. That's
what I, and apparently everyone else, felt was the logical assumption
for all the times Xander has expressed misgivings and then gotten over
them. This idea that he isn't emotionally ready for marriage doesn't
seem to be supported by anything leading up to it. I understand the
whole fundamental insecurity thing (although I'd hoped "The
Replacement" would help him get over some of that), and the way
"Restless" ties that it into his family, but I'm not seeing a guy who
would propose, jump over the little hurdles on the way to getting
married, and then abruptly decide to call things off in a bad-melodrama
fashion.
I'm more likely to agree with your assesment that the writers were
connecting the dots rather than writing something that grows from the
story being told or the people about whom it's being told.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> It's remarkable, AOQ, that you rank Hell's Bells below As You Were. Of
> all BtVS episodes, As You Were is the one I despise most. If there is
> a rating worse than "Weak," then it should get that rating!
Weak is a 2 on a five-point scale, in my world. So Bad is worse, but
since I like BTVS, it's a rare episode that I rank Weak, let alone
worse than that. I've only rated two episodes (and one of ATS) as Bad
so far.
-AOQ
Mel
Was she the girl turned in School Hard, the one who was supposed to help
Buffy with parents' night? What was her name, Sheila???
Mel
ruken
being present.
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 15: "Hell's Bells"
> (or "What a tale of terror, now, their turbulency tells!")
> Writer: Rebecca Rand Kirshner
> Director: David Solomon
>
> The very first thing I said once this started was "let's hope no
> one leaves anyone at the altar. I don't know if I could take that.
> But if they're going to use a cliché, I assume they'll at least
> subvert it."
>
> sight of a supernatural old man after suggestive dialogue is enough to
> qualify for the end-of teaser suspense moment.
>
> that'd happen when the two families collided was more fun than
> a few smiles with Xander's dad successfully managing, when shown in
> small doses, that trick of irritating everyone except the audience with
> his unplumbed depths of crass. Plus, Clem is in a few scenes. Hi,
> Clem! Interspersed with that, we have a few tender moments amongst our
> heroes, which don't tend to stand out but are acceptable. The gag at
> the end of the Buffy/Xander exchange is a highlight, though: "I hope
> I'm as lucky as you guys someday." "You wanna get lucky? I've
> still got, what, fifteen, twenty minutes?" The affection in the
> delivery and the characters' history make it funnier. Also, Anya's
> vows are great - the first time, anyway.
>
> Then Xander gets a vision of the future. The nightmare scenario is a
> very effective bit of storytelling. The slices of life show things
> gradually get older and uglier over the years. Tantalizing little
> details make this short sequence richer. Take NightmareScenario!Xander
> (hereafter prefixed "NS!") being unable to work because of a failed
> attempt to help Buffy against something unspecified. Hey, it's a
> premise that ties into something that's been discussed in past X/A
> scenes. Also, the vision ends with NS!Xander attacking and possibly
> killing NS!Anya. That would be exactly Xander's worst fear at a time
> like this, and it's the only thing that could... well, okay, nothing
> could make the ending of HB work. (Hmm, does it seem like a certain
> review is about to take a very sharp bitter turn?) But if anything
> could, it'd be this.
>
> me at this point, especially since the followup to "all they bring
> each other is pain" is Buffy and Spike. They may be doomed to be one
> of those couples who're more fun for me when they're pining for
> each other than when they're actually together, since this is a great
> little exchange, very well scripted and performed. Funny, but only in
> a better-to-laugh-than-mope kinda way. "But it hurts?"
> "Yeah." "Thanks."
>
> into the realm of the generic with, sure enough, one of the pre-weds
> running away and leaving the other at the altar. Ugh. I admit, and
> I'm ashamed to do so, that I did laugh at Buffy's dissertation
> about the mini-tor. As everyone should know, I generally dislike that
> long-running gag of Buffy stammering out absurd excuses and having
> people believe them. I think the sheer unadulterated excess is what
> our heroes have to hide the fact that something's wrong. Never been
> fond of watching that stuff, even though HB keeps my goodwill a little
> by showing it in bits and pieces rather than in long scenes. But by
> the time everyone erupts into a big brawl, it's clear that the
> episode has lost its way, wandering into uncomfortable barely-comedic
> farce, which seems especially inappropriate given the heaviness of what
> we've just seen. These sequences stick out in memory as the bulk of
> the episode, regardless of how much actual time they take up, because
> they feel very very very long.
>
> Come to think of it, I'm going to take the stance that the
> farce/drama balance is out of whack, since now I'm wondering if maybe
> these scenes weren't even supposed to be that funny so much as a way
> to look at Mr. Harris and compare/contrast with NS!Xander. This
> didn't even occur to me until it was time to write the review.
>
> In the end we take a second to sabotage the drama we've built up by
> having it just be an Evil Thing. At least the idea of having lots of
> pretty good, even if the demon-voice speech isn't. But then, since
> the visions came out of Xander's fears, he then decides that it means
>
> Words cannot adequately convey my distaste and contempt here, and
> attempting to do so may only expose my weaknesses as a writer, but
> I'm going to try my best. I don't buy this. Not for an instant.
> The wedding is crashed by pure plot device, an external force altering
> things for no adequate dramatic reason. Xander decides that his
> deepest desire is to not do anything that could hurt Anya, so he rips
> her heart out and sends her running back to D'Hoffryn. Yeah, I can
> really see how his thought processes would work that way. Note my
> employment of sarcasm, a rhetorical device in which a sentence is used
> to express the opposite of its stated meaning.
>
> doesn't come out of nowhere, but it's been done so in such a
> hopelessly inept manner that it'd be hilarious if it weren't
> depressing. We've seen Xander get apprehensive about matrimony, and
> then convincingly seen such fears written off as the perfectly normal
> kind. Lately we've seen him get annoyed with the wedding, and then
> we've been reminded that the wedding does not equal the marriage.
> There's even OMWF, in which Xander's need for everything to be just
> right causes that episode's single biggest flaw and is never properly
> addressed. The end result is that the great fears that supposedly
> shape this decision do in fact come out of nowhere, and are entirely
> unconvincing.
>
> This feels like the writers wanted yet another episode to end with
> someone sobbing. They attempt to elicit emotion through clichés, like
> the old image of the jilted bride in her wedding dress, distraught.
> It's manufactured tragedy. The polar opposite of the emotional
> honesty that BTVS breakups usually provide, what we have here is
> hackneyed melodrama of the lowest order. Garbage like the end of
> "Hell's Bells" should be beneath _Buffy_, for the show's own
> sake if not for the viewer's.
>
> I'm feeling like I was way too kind.
>
>
> So...
>
>
> AOQ rating: Weak
>
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"ruken" <ru1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> It was weird, and a bit sad, to see a scooby "wedding" without Giles
> being present.
Giles: Xander?
Xander: Can you walk?
Giles: You're not real.
Xander: Sure, I'm real.
Giles: It's a trick. They get inside my head, make me see things I
want.
Xander: Then why would they make you see me?
Giles: (considers) You're right. Let's go.
arguably xander is the last person giles would come to visit
Ian Galbraith
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
> news:1156138041.7...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
[snip]
>> In the end we take a second to sabotage the drama we've built up
>> by having it just be an Evil Thing. At least the idea of having
>> lots of be-cursed monsters gunning for Anyanka is fine. The
>> fight scene is pretty good, even if the demon-voice speech
>> isn't. But then, since the visions came out of Xander's fears,
>> he then decides that it means they shouldn't get married.
> I think you're misreading this. This isn't a moment of panic. It's
> an epiphany.
> Xander has been in denial about the marriage all season. He's told
> himself that the giant flashing warning signs were just typical
> nerves. And he mostly managed to convince himself of this.
> The combination of the horribly plausible vision of the future and
> the close proximity of another miserable marriage breaks down the
> wall of denial. It forces Xander to the realization that he simply
> isn't ready for marriage. And once he gets this realization he can't
> go through with the wedding. Ultimately, going through with the
> wedding would probably be even crueler to Anya than what he actually
> does.
Fully agreed. Not going through with it is actually the right thing to
do, the timing does suck though.
> (And yes, Xander should have been the one to make the announcement.
> But I don't think it's really a matter of choice there. I think he's
> literally not capable of facing the roomful of wedding guests at that
> moment.)
It was the wrong thing to do but like Burt said upthread on the scale of
wrong decisions by the characters this is a small one.
[snip]
--
You can't stop the signal
Opus the Penguin
> I think you're misreading this. This isn't a moment of panic. It's
> an epiphany.
That's what the script wants it to be. You'll just have to take our
word for it that for many, many, many of us it doesn't work as anything
of the sort. It falls so flat the third dimension is a fantastic
theory.
> Xander has been in denial about the marriage all season. He's told
> himself that the giant flashing warning signs were just typical
> nerves. And he mostly managed to convince himself of this.
Except there weren't any giant, flashing warning signs. The way they
were written and played, it *was* just nerves.
Opus the Penguin
> As a general point on this episode, the feeling I got from it is
> that it was a 'Friday afternoon job'. The writers presumably knew
> many months earlier that they'd be breaking up Xander and Anya
> rather than having them get married, but I don't think they'd
> actually decided on the details.
>
> So they kept on putting in foreshadowing about them not working as
> a couple to lay the groundwork; but because they wanted some
> suspense and for the break-up to come as a surprise, they also
> needed to put in scenes of them patching their differences and
> being in love. And of course, each writer would apply their own
> emphases, and in the end the message became obscured.
>
> Then for this actual episode, it seems to me that after all that
> preparation there was a sense of "oh well, here we are, we need to
> get them to split up this week. How shall we do it? And they
> just kicked out a join-the-dots script instead of creating
> something with artistic integrity.
I think that's exactly what happened. Maybe they failed to notice, or
didn't have time to notice, how things had played out up to this
point. The bond between Anya and Xander became stronger and stronger,
and the misgivings became more and more obviously not worth worrying
about.
Between the way the writers wrote the "foreshadowing" scenes, the way
the directors directed them, and the way Brendan and Caulfield played
them (complete with that undefinable and unforceable thing called
"chemistry"), those scenes ended up not foreshadowing the thing that
they forced to happen anyway.
If Joss had had both hands at the wheel, he might have noticed the
problem and called an audible, changing the plot mid-season to
incorporate a Xander/Anya wedding. The comparison/contrast between
them and Buffy/Spike and Willow/Tara could still have been forcefully
made with plenty of misery to go around.
Why didn't Joss have both hands at the wheel? This was the year
*before* _Firefly_, right? Was he developing _Firefly_ and that's why
he didn't have his eye on the ball? That's about the only thing that
would cause me to forgive this inexcusable episode.
burt...@hotmail.com
> burt...@hotmail.com writes:
>
> >I agree that Xander didn't intend to kill anyone, but he's guilty of
> >manslaughter at the least. And manslaughter is a lot worse than leaving
> >someone at the altar in my book.
>
> The thing is, for any crime _more_ serious than manslaughter, the
> criminal *does* need to intend to kill someone. So your 'at the
> least' is wrong.
>
> As for manslaughter, you need to prove *gross* negligence. "To cause
> death by any lack of due care will not amount to manslaughter. A very
> high degree of negligence is necessary for the establishment of a
> crime."
Yes, and Xander knows full well how dangerous magic can be, having been
involved in a great deal of nastiness involving it over the years. And
yet, he still chose to cast a strange spell when he had NO idea as to
the exact effect it would have. If that's not gross negligence, I don't
know what is.
If this had happened back in season 1, I could buy the defense that
this was a genuine accident. But by now, Xander knows better.
Ian Galbraith
[snip]
> Or you can just assume that he likes the idea of being married, but
> doesn't do well with taking too many changes at once or with thinking
> too hard and obsessively about the future the way Anya does. That's
> what I, and apparently everyone else, felt was the logical assumption
> for all the times Xander has expressed misgivings and then gotten over
> them. This idea that he isn't emotionally ready for marriage doesn't
> seem to be supported by anything leading up to it. I understand the
> whole fundamental insecurity thing (although I'd hoped "The
> Replacement" would help him get over some of that), and the way
> "Restless" ties that it into his family, but I'm not seeing a guy who
> would propose, jump over the little hurdles on the way to getting
> married, and then abruptly decide to call things off in a bad-melodrama
> fashion.
Well he did have some external prompting that played into his fears.
Without that he probably would have gone through with it.
Ken from Chicago
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1156138041.7...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Six, Episode 15: "Hell's Bells"
(or "What a tale of terror, now, their turbulency tells!")
Writer: Rebecca Rand Kirshner
Director: David Solomon
The very first thing I said once this started was "let's hope no
one leaves anyone at the altar. I don't know if I could take that.
But if they're going to use a cliché, I assume they'll at least
subvert it."
<snip>
This was the capper. This one confirmed that NO ONE would be happy in S6:
--Buffy (non-dead and depressed and slightly demony),
--Giles (exploited by Buffster so had to leave town),
--Dawn (klepto, whiny, self-absorbed and scared),
--Willow (magic addicted and recovering),
--Spike (sunk to the "try to make the ex jealous with a date" bit)
--Tara (broken-hearted but dealing, the closest to a source of happiness and
maturity in S6, at least in the eps she appears in),
With this ep, we add Xander (runaway groom) and Anya (jilted bride), to make
it unanimous.
One of things I like about driving down highways with 3 lanes is that rarely
is idiocy synchronized across THREE lanes. Typically at least one lane is
open allowing you to pass slowpokes until you get to that sweet spot where
everyone is travelling at your comfort speed, or faster, so you can put the
car in cruise control.
Season 6 of BUFFY was like a SIX lane highway where all SIX lanes are
clogged--clogged with misery and depression that you can't drive around. You
have to brake and watch in agony. In previous season there was usually some
bright spots when someone was in agony. But not so with Season 6. All pain
for everyone in nice large heaping servings. Ugh.
-- Ken from Chicago
Elisi
> > It's the same reason that Warren choosing Katrina was worse than if
> > he'd chosen a random girl. It's personal.
>
> I don't think that makes any difference. What Warren did would have
> been just as horrible no matter who his victim was. The "personal"
> nature of a crime has nothing to do with its severity.
Of course it's worse! Viewed objectively, no, but from a character
perspective it makes a _huge_ difference. Even Jonathan and Andrew
grasp this:
JONATHAN: She's your ex?
ANDREW: Dude, that is messed up.
Objectifying women is nothing new. Heck the entire porn industry is
built around it. It's (sadly) human nature. Jonathan and Andrew never
thought of what they were doing as rape - Warren clearly did, and yet
went ahead. Choosing Katrina - turning someone he _loved_ into an
object and a slave he showed just how very, very dangerous and twisted
he was.
Remember that Angelus was considered the worst vampire on record,
specifically because he made all his important kills personal. It's why
Drusilla was the worst thing he ever did, even before he killed her.
> > If Xander had _intended_ to
> > kill people in OMWF it would have been different. (And I concur that
> > leaving her to face people (rather than doing the announcement himself)
> > is what makes it even worse. )
>
> I agree that Xander didn't intend to kill anyone, but he's guilty of
> manslaughter at the least. And manslaughter is a lot worse than leaving
> someone at the altar in my book
We're not talking about objective crime here - we're talking about
intent. Motive. The reason behind the action. That's what separates
manslaughter from murder f.ex.
Ken from Chicago
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1156171578.4...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> Elisi wrote:
>>
>> > I don't think I've seen this one since it first aired, and I've no
>> > plans to re-watch... like, ever! Too much angst - way, way worse than
>> > 'Becoming'!
>>
>> Wow. Again, I think this is the opposite of something like "Becoming,"
>> which mostly "earns" its angst. But if it was so hearbreaking for you,
>> then it probably worked well, regardless of whether you can "enjoy"
>> watching it.
>
> Well the thing with 'Becoming' is that B/A is always over the top and
> melodramatic. Buffy faces a terrible choice once Angel re-gains his
> soul, but the whole thing is very engineered and fairy-tale like.
> 'Hells Bells' isn't - of course it's stupidly over the top because
> that's how things are done on BtVS, but the choice Xander makes is one
> that's far too real, and that's why it hurts more.
<snip>
Meanwhile S/B was more mature and level-headed equals, at least late S5 and
early S6.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"peachy ashie passion" <exquisi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5MhGg.10825$Te.2089@trnddc07...
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>> Words cannot adequately convey my distaste and contempt here, and
>> attempting to do so may only expose my weaknesses as a writer, but
>> I'm going to try my best. I don't buy this. Not for an instant.
>> The wedding is crashed by pure plot device, an external force altering
>> things for no adequate dramatic reason. Xander decides that his
>> deepest desire is to not do anything that could hurt Anya, so he rips
>> her heart out and sends her running back to D'Hoffryn. Yeah, I can
>> really see how his thought processes would work that way. Note my
>> employment of sarcasm, a rhetorical device in which a sentence is used
>> to express the opposite of its stated meaning.
>>
>
>
>>
>> I'm feeling like I was way too kind.
>>
>
AOQ jabs the literary knife so well.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"Rowan Hawthorn" <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:i7-dnYoYyPFSW3TZ...@giganews.com...
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>> threads.
>>
>>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Six, Episode 15: "Hell's Bells"
>> (or "What a tale of terror, now, their turbulency tells!")
>> Writer: Rebecca Rand Kirshner
>> Director: David Solomon
>>
>> horror with regards to the bridesmaids' dresses.
>
> "all Marlene Dietrichey in a dashing tuxedo number." Would have been the
> highlight of the episode. As it is, I have to go with the following:
>
>> Interspersed with that, we have a few tender moments amongst our
>> heroes, which don't tend to stand out but are acceptable.
>
> Tara - and then, Willow surreptitiously copping a feel while pulling Tara
> away from the brawl? (She's a breast girl, y'know...)
>
>>
>> AOQ rating: Weak
>>
>
> Pretty much, yeah.
>
> --
> Rowan Hawthorn
>
> "Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
> Vampire Slayer"
No, no, no. There was no copping whatsoever.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"Clairel" <reld...@usa.net> wrote in message
news:1156193545....@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
<snip>
Late S5 and early S6 aka before they're sleeping together.
-- Ken from Chicago
Elisi
Rincewind wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> >The very first thing I said once this started was "let's hope no
> >one leaves anyone at the altar. I don't know if I could take that.
> >But if they're going to use a cliché, I assume they'll at least
> >subvert it."
>
> an appearance in your S6 reviews. It happened a lot later than I thought.
Just to be obtuse, I'm not sure it's *possible* to make a wedding
episode without clichés. Or to tell any story at all, without it.
Buffy/Angel is Romeo & Juliet all over, except longer and with more
twists and extra angst.
Actually, although I find Xander leaving Anya at the altar impossibly
sad, at least it gives the writers oodles of angst to play with. Which
is a good thing, because happy people do not interesting stories make.
They _can_, but it's hard. F.ex. Daphne and Niles (on Frasier) got dull
the second they got together, because the inherent dynamic in the
interactions had changed.
Don't get me wrong, I would have _loved_ to have seen Xander and Anya
blissfully happy, but I'm not sure that 'the hilarious antics of the
newlyweds' would have added anything to the show.
Also - Joss is a bastard. We all know it - why would A/X be the
exception?
Elisi
Which is why there are *7* seasons. S6 wasn't the end.
Rincewind
>Rincewind wrote:
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >The very first thing I said once this started was "let's hope no
>> >one leaves anyone at the altar. I don't know if I could take that.
>> >But if they're going to use a cliché, I assume they'll at least
>> >subvert it."
>>
>> I was wondering how long it would take for the word "cliché" to finally
>> make
>> an appearance in your S6 reviews. It happened a lot later than I thought.
>
>Just to be obtuse, I'm not sure it's *possible* to make a wedding
>episode without clichés. Or to tell any story at all, without it.
>Buffy/Angel is Romeo & Juliet all over, except longer and with more
>twists and extra angst.
The strange thing about clichés is that they become interesting when they
are subverted, and throughout the series ME has clearly demostrated that
subverting clichés is one of the things they do best.
Actually the whole premise of the series is the subversion of a cliché.
In season 6 I think they used the clichés but forgot the bit about
subverting them (and in my post I forgot to specify that i was complaining
about clichés of the non subverted variety).
>Actually, although I find Xander leaving Anya at the altar impossibly
>sad, at least it gives the writers oodles of angst to play with. Which
>is a good thing, because happy people do not interesting stories make.
>They _can_, but it's hard. F.ex. Daphne and Niles (on Frasier) got dull
>the second they got together, because the inherent dynamic in the
>interactions had changed.
>
>Don't get me wrong, I would have _loved_ to have seen Xander and Anya
>blissfully happy, but I'm not sure that 'the hilarious antics of the
>newlyweds' would have added anything to the show.
I think Anya and Xander didn't deserve to live happily ever after so I have
no problem with them finally being unhappy like everybody else in the show
(Xander is the one character in the show that I always hated). But I
expected the show to do it in a more interesting way.
>Also - Joss is a bastard. We all know it - why would A/X be the
>exception?
Joss is evil, evil, evil and Buffy should have staked him in season 4... no
wait, maybe I'm mistaking him with someone else...
Rincewind.
--
What I have learned from Buffy:
It's okay to date someone who shows no remorse for 1000 years of vengance,
but you should avoid souled vampires seeking redemption.
Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1156138041.7...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
<snip>
> One of things I like about driving down highways with 3 lanes is that
> rarely
> is idiocy synchronized across THREE lanes. Typically at least one lane is
> open allowing you to pass slowpokes until you get to that sweet spot where
> everyone is travelling at your comfort speed, or faster, so you can put
> the
> car in cruise control.
>
> Season 6 of BUFFY was like a SIX lane highway where all SIX lanes are
> clogged--clogged with misery and depression that you can't drive around.
> You
> have to brake and watch in agony. In previous season there was usually
> some
> bright spots when someone was in agony. But not so with Season 6. All pain
> for everyone in nice large heaping servings. Ugh.
>
> -- Ken from Chicago
Which is why there are *7* seasons. S6 wasn't the end.
*** REPLY SEPARATOR ***
Trying to be Arbitrar friendly and focus only up to "Hell's Bells". I never
said it applied to S7 or even the rest of S6--and won't while Arb's
listening.
-- Ken from Chicago
Elisi
Sorry - it just seemed very much along the lines of those who say
'Willow was *ruined* in 'Wrecked', as though the rest of the show
doesn't exist. I would never mention that S7 is set in 'Happily Ever
After Land' where everyone always plays with puppies and bunnies... *g*
Stephen Tempest
>"Rowan Hawthorn" <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> What! No reference to the fleeting, giggling glimpses between Willow and
>> Tara - and then, Willow surreptitiously copping a feel while pulling Tara
>> away from the brawl? (She's a breast girl, y'know...)
>
>No, no, no. There was no copping whatsoever.
People keep making references to characters on screen copping feels -
I think this is the third time so far - and I've never noticed any of
this myself. Am I just unobservant? Is it that I don't watch the
screen with my eyes glued to the characters' breasts, ready to note
whenever a stray hand comes near them? Or what?
Stephen
Stephen Tempest
>Yes, and Xander knows full well how dangerous magic can be, having been
>involved in a great deal of nastiness involving it over the years. And
>yet, he still chose to cast a strange spell when he had NO idea as to
>the exact effect it would have. If that's not gross negligence, I don't
>know what is.
This is fun. Not only did I know you'd say something like that - I
even anticipated it in my own post and replied to your objection
before you made it! So instead of writing something new, all I need
to do now is re-quote the part you snipped out of my original post
before answering:
>And before
>you say it, characters in the Buffyverse use magic all the time
>(practically once an episode by this stage) with no obvious signs of
>people burning and dying. So he'd have no real reason to suspect this
>spell would be any different.
Xander's experience up to OMWF teaches him that magic is almost always
safe and harmless. He's Willow's best friend, and she uses magic _all
the time_... so why shouldn't he?
Stephen
vague disclaimer
Stephen Tempest <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Am I just unobservant? Is it that I don't watch the
> screen with my eyes glued to the characters' breasts,
On a point of pedantry, breasts aren't the only thing of which one can
cop a feel....er...apparently.
Many a B/S interaction included them, but just a tad out of shot (all
the better to avoid the FCC fines).
--
Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
One Bit Shy
news:6bfme2tal2mu0hns6...@4ax.com...
Well, I'm without shame. What are the other examples? I remember Spike
feeling up Buffy in Triangle. What else?
OBS
Rowan Hawthorn
Probably just "what". This bit has been a running gag since the episode
aired - it's almost certainly just due to the camera angle messing with
the viewer's perspective (just as in "Once More, With Feeling," - one
shot makes it seem as if Tara is taking a peek down Willow's cleavage
when she's really looking at one of the books,) but when the brawl
starts, Willow grabs Tara and pulls her behind the floral arrangements,
out of the way, reaches up and straightens Tara's hair, then her hand
appears to continue down and brush the side of Tara's breast.
Hey, I thought it was funny, anyway...
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
>> It was weird, and a bit sad, to see a scooby "wedding" without Giles
>> being present.
>
> Giles: Xander?
>
> Xander: Can you walk?
>
> Giles: You're not real.
>
> Xander: Sure, I'm real.
>
> Giles: It's a trick. They get inside my head, make me see things I
> want.
>
> Xander: Then why would they make you see me?
>
> Giles: (considers) You're right. Let's go.
Did that mean Giles didn't want to see Xander, or did it just mean that he
would naturally want to see Buffy, the Slayer, come to his rescue?
> arguably xander is the last person giles would come to visit
LAST person? Of all people, or just all main cast members on BtVS?
Giles certainly doesn't have the same paternal love for Xander that he
feels for Buffy (and to a lesser extent Dawn and Willow), but if you think
he actually *dislikes* Xander, that's going too far. Look at them in the
airport scene of Bargaining, for example, or the party scenes in All the
Way. Giles may have found Xander disappointing or annoying at times, and
Xander may have considered Giles old, uptight and an easy target at times,
but on the whole they were pretty tight.
(And even if you don't buy that, you'd have to agree that *Spike* would be
the last character Giles would want to come visit!)
As someone already pointed out, the shooting script had a scene explaining
that Giles couldn't make it to the wedding and sent flowers instead. It
was apparently cut for time. Personally, I think HB would have been
better if they had kept that scene and trimmed out some of the "circus
folk" jokes and Harris-demon fighting.
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
Elisi
I think a good analogy would be putting on a fireworks display. Willow
does it all the time - sometimes with less than stellar results - but
fireworks are pretty. So although *everyone* knows that fireworks can
be dangerous, it doesn't stop people using them. And just because
Xander got burned by a sparkler 4 years before doesn't mean that he'll
stay away from fireworks forever!
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges <mair_...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> It was weird, and a bit sad, to see a scooby "wedding" without Giles
> >> being present.
> >
> > Giles: Xander?
> >
> > Xander: Can you walk?
> >
> > Giles: You're not real.
> >
> > Xander: Sure, I'm real.
> >
> > Giles: It's a trick. They get inside my head, make me see things I
> > want.
> >
> > Xander: Then why would they make you see me?
> >
> > Giles: (considers) You're right. Let's go.
>
> Did that mean Giles didn't want to see Xander, or did it just mean that he
> would naturally want to see Buffy, the Slayer, come to his rescue?
that was just one example that giles doesnt like xander very much
or maybe at all
he tolerates xander because hes important to buffy
during season four they sometimes pair up
but mostly because buffy and willow are off to college
and left the twain behind
remeber giles is older than the rest
his relation with buffy is part of job and duty as a watcher
the others are brought in as buffys friends
tolerated on buffys behalf
what glimpses we see of his life outside a watcher
he seems more drawn to older people like himself
and would like to have an orgasm friend of his own
closer to his own age and background
Ken from Chicago
"vague disclaimer" <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote in message
news:l64o-1rj5-B2F99...@europe.isp.giganews.com...
> In article <6bfme2tal2mu0hns6...@4ax.com>,
> Stephen Tempest <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Am I just unobservant? Is it that I don't watch the
>> screen with my eyes glued to the characters' breasts,
>
> On a point of pedantry, breasts aren't the only thing of which one can
> cop a feel....er...apparently.
>
> Many a B/S interaction included them, but just a tad out of shot (all
> the better to avoid the FCC fines).
Wow, you were able to see the copping while it was "out of shot" of the
camera? Impressive.
> --
> Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
> Stephen Tempest wrote:
>> "Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> writes:
>>
>>> "Rowan Hawthorn" <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> What! No reference to the fleeting, giggling glimpses between Willow
>>>> and Tara - and then, Willow surreptitiously copping a feel while
>>>> pulling Tara away from the brawl? (She's a breast girl, y'know...)
>>> No, no, no. There was no copping whatsoever.
>>
>> People keep making references to characters on screen copping feels -
>> I think this is the third time so far - and I've never noticed any of
>> this myself. Am I just unobservant? Is it that I don't watch the
>> screen with my eyes glued to the characters' breasts, ready to note
>> whenever a stray hand comes near them? Or what?
>
> Probably just "what". This bit has been a running gag since the episode
> aired - it's almost certainly just due to the camera angle messing with
> the viewer's perspective (just as in "Once More, With Feeling," - one shot
> makes it seem as if Tara is taking a peek down Willow's cleavage when
> she's really looking at one of the books,) but when the brawl starts,
> Willow grabs Tara and pulls her behind the floral arrangements,
Is that code?
> out of the way, reaches up and straightens Tara's hair, then her hand
> appears to continue down and brush the side of Tara's breast.
>
> Hey, I thought it was funny, anyway...
>
> --
> Rowan Hawthorn
>
> "Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
> Vampire Slayer"
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
>
> Ken from Chicago wrote:
>> "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1156243022.9...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> Ken from Chicago wrote:
>> > "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>> > news:1156138041.7...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> > A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>> > threads.
<snip>
>> *** REPLY SEPARATOR ***
>>
>> Trying to be Arbitrar friendly and focus only up to "Hell's Bells". I
>> never
>> said it applied to S7 or even the rest of S6--and won't while Arb's
>> listening.
>>
>> -- Ken from Chicago
>
> Sorry - it just seemed very much along the lines of those who say
> 'Willow was *ruined* in 'Wrecked', as though the rest of the show
> doesn't exist. I would never mention that S7 is set in 'Happily Ever
> After Land' where everyone always plays with puppies and bunnies... *g*
Especially since we know how Anya feels about bunnies.
-- Ken from Chicago
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
> "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1156259800....@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Ken from Chicago wrote:
> >> "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:1156243022.9...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> >>
> >> Ken from Chicago wrote:
> >> > "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> >> > news:1156138041.7...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >> > A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> >> > threads.
>
> <snip>
>
> >> *** REPLY SEPARATOR ***
> >>
> >> Trying to be Arbitrar friendly and focus only up to "Hell's Bells". I
> >> never
> >> said it applied to S7 or even the rest of S6--and won't while Arb's
> >> listening.
> >>
> >> -- Ken from Chicago
> >
> > Sorry - it just seemed very much along the lines of those who say
> > 'Willow was *ruined* in 'Wrecked', as though the rest of the show
> > doesn't exist. I would never mention that S7 is set in 'Happily Ever
> > After Land' where everyone always plays with puppies and bunnies... *g*
>
> Especially since we know how Anya feels about bunnies.
it will be revealed that anya spent normal again off camera
relieving her anxieties on a farm of rabbits (blam blam)
returning to xander calmer happier and finally rid of rabbit phobia
vague disclaimer
"Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
> "vague disclaimer" <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote in message
> news:l64o-1rj5-B2F99...@europe.isp.giganews.com...
> > In article <6bfme2tal2mu0hns6...@4ax.com>,
> > Stephen Tempest <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> Am I just unobservant? Is it that I don't watch the
> >> screen with my eyes glued to the characters' breasts,
> >
> > On a point of pedantry, breasts aren't the only thing of which one can
> > cop a feel....er...apparently.
> >
> > Many a B/S interaction included them, but just a tad out of shot (all
> > the better to avoid the FCC fines).
>
> Wow, you were able to see the copping while it was "out of shot" of the
> camera? Impressive.
So when Spike's hand goes 'down below' and Buffy sighs, were suppose to
assume he scratching her kneecap are we?
vague disclaimer
"Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > Willow grabs Tara and pulls her behind the floral arrangements,
>
> Is that code?
OK, who's keeping track of who owes whom keyboards?
One Bit Shy
news:1156138041.7...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 15: "Hell's Bells"
This may prove to be the most difficult response I've had to compose yet.
For, you see, contrary to the typical reaction to this episode - including
yours - this is a clear Excellent for me. And not just that. One of my
favorite BtVS episodes of all time - currently sitting #7 on my BtVS top ten
list. Having a contrary view isn't such a deal - I just rated the much
despised As You Were a Good - my guilty pleasure - fully understanding the
disdain so many have for what surely is a ridiculous episode. I get that.
I don't get this. Mind you, I don't expect the rest of the world to see
this as a top ten episode. But I don't get how something as moving as I
believe this episode is can be trashed as readily as people do. And I don't
get people's overwhelming focus on Xander when there is another half to this
partnership - Anya - who plays a thunderously important part in this
episode, in the foundation of the whole situation, and in where this points
to the future. It's like half of the episode and most of its foundation and
purpose is being blacked out. Weird.
So it is with some trepidation that I leap into this fray. Hopefully I'll
get out of here alive.
> I made a comment last week about how hearing about the hellish antics
> that'd happen when the two families collided was more fun than
> actually watching it, and I stand by that.
Heh. This must be the predictable part of the review. Cliche maybe? (Just
kidding.)
> The early sequences manage
> a few smiles with Xander's dad successfully managing, when shown in
> small doses, that trick of irritating everyone except the audience with
> his unplumbed depths of crass. Plus, Clem is in a few scenes. Hi,
> Clem! Interspersed with that, we have a few tender moments amongst our
> heroes, which don't tend to stand out but are acceptable. The gag at
> the end of the Buffy/Xander exchange is a highlight, though: "I hope
> I'm as lucky as you guys someday." "You wanna get lucky? I've
> still got, what, fifteen, twenty minutes?" The affection in the
> delivery and the characters' history make it funnier.
I enjoy the humor in the early scenes. Finding Xander's cufflinks on cousin
Carol's ears. Decorating the Sunnydale Bison Lodge by putting a bridal veil
on the bison head. (No, it doesn't really look like a bison head to me, but
it's supposed to be one.) Spike having nothing to say about his date other
than - well, this is his date. Date for the wedding. (Though I suppose
it's good that he's out and about enough to dig up a date.) Clem is
wonderful going with the circus folk story.
Clem: Well, there are ancient ways.... Clowning, as an occupation, grew out
of the commedia del'arte, and, uh, ancient sports, of course.
The whole circus folk pretense is fun and, of course, totally ridiculous,
what with all the insane looking demons at the wedding. Later, when Dawn
and the demon teen are casually talking about whose parents are worse, I
idly muse about how much of the Sunnydale scene really is pretense, and how
many casual encounters like theirs really go on. Brings to mind Buffy's
fast food friend dancing with Clem at Buffy's birthday party. Though, of
course, human's and demons still don't mix well as a whole, so we get
Xander's drunk father calling one "Squidly" and mocking him with wiggling
fingers below his chin to imitate the demon's strange appendages. And sweet
cousin Carol who just wants everyone to get along - so she can do some
serious husband hunting. Hey, that's good enough reason for me to be nice
to the demons.
Cousin Carol: No! No, the Harrises are very broad-minded. We're
Episcopalians.
I also enjoyed the initial encounter with D'Hoffryn
D'Hoffryn: Ah. Hymen's greetings.
Dawn: Hy - what?
D'Hoffryn: Hymen, the God of Matrimony. His salutations upon you. May the
love we celebrate today avoid an almost inevitable decline.
What a decidedly vengeance demon way of offering good luck. Heh. (I wonder
if D'Hoffryn might actually know Hymen. "His salutations upon you," almost
sounds like a personal message.) I think it's interesting seeing
D'Hoffryn's tender concern for Anya this episode - rather different than
what we saw back in S3 when he refused to return Anya's demon powers.
Perhaps, as THE vengeance demon, he really can't bear to see a broken heart,
has a big dose of sentimental fool in himself. Granted, turning to
vengeance as an act of sentiment is kind of sick, but - hey - evil demon
here. His idea of proper behavior isn't the same as you and I. But more
than most demons we see, he does care a lot about his idea of proper
behavior. We saw that with his polite offer to Willow. And I think he
probably believes the single most appropriate response to what was done to
Anya is to return her to her calling.
Or maybe this is D'Hoffryn's act of vengeance upon Anya.... I wonder if
D'Hoffryn would know the difference.
Back to the wedding. I enjoy the humor shown, but that's not what's
best to me about the various scenes swirling around the wedding party and
guests. What I really like, and why I've spent so much time on this part of
the show, is how all the show's players are brought together for a little
snapshot of where they are right now - which by Sunnydale standards is
pretty darned happy. Granted, that gets seriously messed up at the end.
(That intrusion - not Xander/Anya specific - is something I'll return to a
few episodes into the future.) But for a moment - a pretty long moment
actually - this episode serves a function somewhat akin to what The Prom did
in S3 by giving the characters a chance to just be happy.
And show the audience how much some of them have achieved. Willow and Tara
enjoying each other's company again, on the simplest terms. You can tell
that they really want to put the past behind them and find a way to just be
together. Xander and, especially, Anya initially in a mighty fine place.
And most especially Buffy, with a sparkling smile that she can't get rid of,
fully engaged in the events and people around her. Something that would
seem nigh on impossible such a short time ago.
I think this is nowhere clearer than her scenes with Xander and their simple
pure affection. "You're one of the decent ones, Xander." One of the sadder
parts of the season for me has been Buffy's estrangement from her friends.
But somewhere, maybe it was sitting on the bed with Willow at her lowest and
realizing that she had much the same kind of weakness within herself, maybe
not fully realizing it, Buffy forgave Willow for the spell that brought her
back and connected with Willow's life again. And she's closer to Tara than
she ever was. And now quietly re-affirming her love for Xander, her gallant
protector, the guardian of her heart.
Not exactly a return to the old days of musketeer like unity I know - I
think they've all grown up too much into their own lives to really pull that
off anymore. But the bonds tying Buffy to her friends remain, and it's nice
to see.
There are other interesting moments too. Xander and Willow sentimentally
remembering the fluke. "Your double X's don't look too bad there, either."
And of course the Buffy/Spike scene that you mention below.
All of it amidst the barely controlled chaos of an impending wedding with
the improbable mixing of families and friends that are strangers to each
other and so on that itself feels very true to me for that kind of scene.
With all the personal struggles thrown at all of our characters this
season - shortly to be more - it's worth pausing to appreciate the good
times offered. Not everything that happens to them is bad. And their
resilience keeps coming through.
> Also, Anya's
> vows are great - the first time, anyway.
They, and some of her comments around them, are a statement of what she has
made of herself - with Xander's assistance. A good dose of her amusing, yet
endearing quirkiness that makes her and these vows so funny. But they're
also a progression of understanding and appreciation for Xander and what
life has to offer. Her excitement over spending the rest of her life with
her best friend. And especially her final version of the vows.
Anya: Okay. For the last time. 'I, Anya, want to marry you, Xander,
because ... I love you and I'll always love you. And ... before I knew you,
I was like a completely different person. Not even a person, really ... and
I had seen what love could do to people, and it was ... hurt and sadness.
Alone was better. And then, suddenly there was you, and ... you knew me. You
saw me, and it was this ... thing. You make me feel safe and warm. So, I
get it now. I finally get love, Xander. I really do.'
This is Anya at her happiest - and you can see how thoroughly tied to Xander
that happiness is.... Recited as Xander miserably walks through the rain.
I wonder. Would it have made a difference if he could have heard that? Or
might it have only made it worse?
> Then Xander gets a vision of the future. The nightmare scenario is a
> very effective bit of storytelling. The slices of life show things
> gradually get older and uglier over the years. Tantalizing little
> details make this short sequence richer. Take NightmareScenario!Xander
> (hereafter prefixed "NS!") being unable to work because of a failed
> attempt to help Buffy against something unspecified. Hey, it's a
> premise that ties into something that's been discussed in past X/A
> scenes. Also, the vision ends with NS!Xander attacking and possibly
> killing NS!Anya. That would be exactly Xander's worst fear at a time
> like this, and it's the only thing that could... well, okay, nothing
> could make the ending of HB work. (Hmm, does it seem like a certain
> review is about to take a very sharp bitter turn?) But if anything
> could, it'd be this.
And Anya cheating on him - with a demon. That it's a demon is as important
as the cheating.
While this is Xander's vision, built out of his fears, it's still worth
mentioning how a couple of things tie into Anya's own fears. (Xander is
probably well aware of those fears, so it's not so unreasonable for them to
make their way into his vision.) One is her fear of growing older and no
longer being desirable to Xander. Another being betrayal - the inevitable
betrayal that her past life taught her. From her vows, "I had seen what
love could do to people, and it was ... hurt and sadness." There is some
irony that she's the one who cheats in this vision.
> Before we get to any bitter turnings, let me say that the episode had
> me at this point, especially since the followup to "all they bring
> each other is pain" is Buffy and Spike. They may be doomed to be one
> of those couples who're more fun for me when they're pining for
> each other than when they're actually together, since this is a great
> little exchange, very well scripted and performed. Funny, but only in
> a better-to-laugh-than-mope kinda way. "But it hurts?"
> "Yeah." "Thanks."
Buffy's private, "You're welcome," that follows is the clincher for me. An
appreciation for what Spike did for her - in spite of the problems - that at
this point likely includes a sense of owing him. He's well earned whatever
little she can give him, even though that be nothing more than a sop to his
pride by being hurt that he brought a date.
I'm not sure why exactly you prefer the pining, but for me, that along with
their separation is when their relationship is honest. I'm not sure that
it's more stable than any other time, but it's the only time that they can
both express their true feelings, and squeeze in the most affection and
respect. And honest frustration.
> After Xander and Willow share a best-friends moment, the show veers
> into the realm of the generic with, sure enough, one of the pre-weds
> running away and leaving the other at the altar. Ugh.
That reads to me as seeing only the generic events without the meaning
played out during them. This device is used so often because it's one of
life's greatest point of no return moments when one can no longer postpone
the decision. It's naturally dramatic with its own built in tension. It's
also nigh on impossible to replace with something else. That's just where
the dividing line rests.
So in choosing this scenario, they're just putting the drama in its proper
place, and more importantly, letting it do its work by itself while the real
story of why can be focused on without having to expend special effort on
where and when.
What makes the story not generic is the unique set of causes brought by
Xander and Anya. When we see Anya take her terrible walk at the end, that's
not a generic person left at the altar. That's Anya with the whole weight
of her shattered life worn on her face. A life we've followed intimately
for 3 years, and have come to love. One that's taken instantly from the
peak of her life to utter despair, with particular meaning unique to her.
Personal. Not generic.
It's a wedding. Weddings are automatically cliche practically by
definition. The cliche doesn't matter. It's what behind it that does.
> I admit, and
> I'm ashamed to do so, that I did laugh at Buffy's dissertation
> about the mini-tor. As everyone should know, I generally dislike that
> long-running gag of Buffy stammering out absurd excuses and having
> people believe them. I think the sheer unadulterated excess is what
> made it into a guilty laugh here. Otherwise, things quickly go awry as
> our heroes have to hide the fact that something's wrong. Never been
> fond of watching that stuff, even though HB keeps my goodwill a little
> by showing it in bits and pieces rather than in long scenes.
I'm quite fond of Buffy's attempts to entertain the audience. The charades.
The juggling. I loved how Krelvin gallantly handed a ball to Buffy when she
dropped one of hers. There's a sweet humor to this in line with the things
I discussed above.
> But by
> the time everyone erupts into a big brawl, it's clear that the
> episode has lost its way, wandering into uncomfortable barely-comedic
> farce, which seems especially inappropriate given the heaviness of what
> we've just seen. These sequences stick out in memory as the bulk of
> the episode, regardless of how much actual time they take up, because
> they feel very very very long.
> Come to think of it, I'm going to take the stance that the
> farce/drama balance is out of whack, since now I'm wondering if maybe
> these scenes weren't even supposed to be that funny so much as a way
> to look at Mr. Harris and compare/contrast with NS!Xander. This
> didn't even occur to me until it was time to write the review.
I'm not sure what exactly you mean by that, but the fight *is*
representative of the core issues working to stop the marriage. The
horrible role models that are Xander's parents, and their disasterous
marriage. And the conflict between being demon and being human. So, no,
it's not just farce.
> In the end we take a second to sabotage the drama we've built up by
> having it just be an Evil Thing.
I'm curious. Did you buy into the idea that he was Xander's future self? I
really don't know how convincing that is. When I first saw this episode, I
had just started watching the series and understood very little of it. The
next time I saw it, I knew it wasn't really Xander all along.
> At least the idea of having lots of
> be-cursed monsters gunning for Anyanka is fine.
Ummm. And here we start my despair. The nature of this monster is a huge
deal. He's not just some evil thing. He's specifically Anya's creation.
Nor does his revelation sabotage the established drama. It complicates it
by bringing Anya into it as a cause.
We'll come back to that, but here's your subversion of the cliche. It's not
just Xander (the guy) working through his issues and walking out. We've
also got Anya's literal demon (Sunnydale - remember? - how many times are we
reminded of what the hellmouth does?) acting to sabotage the wedding.
Indeed, this demon is the proximate cause of the wedding not coming off. So
this version of the cliche has the girl left at the altar stopping the groom
from taking his vows via a monstrous representation of her own sordid past.
> The fight scene is
> pretty good, even if the demon-voice speech isn't. But then, since
> the visions came out of Xander's fears, he then decides that it means
> they shouldn't get married. Um...
Um. Sort of.
> Words cannot adequately convey my distaste and contempt here, and
> attempting to do so may only expose my weaknesses as a writer, but
> I'm going to try my best. I don't buy this. Not for an instant.
> The wedding is crashed by pure plot device, an external force altering
> things for no adequate dramatic reason.
That would be the plot device that brings Anya into what goes wrong. Makes
the story about her issues as well as Xander's. The device that completely
muddles blame and even what's right.
> Xander decides that his
> deepest desire is to not do anything that could hurt Anya, so he rips
> her heart out and sends her running back to D'Hoffryn. Yeah, I can
> really see how his thought processes would work that way. Note my
> employment of sarcasm, a rhetorical device in which a sentence is used
> to express the opposite of its stated meaning.
I will try to avoid comparable sarcasm, for your position is hardly unique,
and is, I believe born of simply misunderstanding the real depths of this
story - even what it's about. Xander's story matters a lot. And he is the
vehicle for the terrible decision. But ultimately this story is more about
Anya than Xander. Not just what happens to Anya. But who she is. Xander
faces his own demons and tries to make a decision. Maybe bad. Maybe not.
But he's always known this about himself and does not walk out of this
wedding fundamentally different. Anya is confronted by her own literal
demon (both in the sense of what she created and the demon she once was),
can't handle it, is destroyed by it, and she walks out a demon.
> Part of the hell of it is, S6 has attempted to set this up so that it
> doesn't come out of nowhere, but it's been done so in such a
> hopelessly inept manner that it'd be hilarious if it weren't
> depressing. We've seen Xander get apprehensive about matrimony, and
> then convincingly seen such fears written off as the perfectly normal
> kind. Lately we've seen him get annoyed with the wedding, and then
> we've been reminded that the wedding does not equal the marriage.
> There's even OMWF, in which Xander's need for everything to be just
> right causes that episode's single biggest flaw and is never properly
> addressed. The end result is that the great fears that supposedly
> shape this decision do in fact come out of nowhere, and are entirely
> unconvincing.
OK. Let's look at the foundation for Xander's part. Starting with set up
elements that you observe above. I don't see you directly say it, but it
appears to me that you're implying that this set of pre-wedding jitters
doesn't add up to walking out. I agree. It doesn't. And it didn't. The
wedding was going to happen - until the demon entered the picture. By
themselves those worries weren't near enough to stop the wedding. Indeed,
on the whole I think they really were just jitters - and probably didn't
contribute much at all to his decision. With a couple of exceptions you
don't mention that I'll get to in a sec.
There is one generalized fear of commitment - best reflected in Xander's
reluctance to announce the engagement. That probably was largely founded on
Xander's deeper fears that come out in this episode, but at the time was too
generalized, too formless to actually stop anything.
Second, I think it's highly questionable how much he was really acting of
his own volition when he backed away. It's certainly impossible for the
decision to have been well reasoned. The man was the victim of powerful
magic that took his worst, darkest fears and made them come to life. Made
him live them as real. That's a profoundly shocking experience, still quite
fresh in his mind. There is no way that he can be close to past that so
quickly. No way that he can be rational about it. No way that he can be
anything but terrified at what's inside him. He tried to kill Anya with a
frying pan for heaven's sake. That's still running through his head when he
says he can't get married. Yes, I know he says the he understands the
visions weren't real and that he understands that it's something within him
and it's his fault and so on. But so what? Of course he says that. He's
being noble and taking the responsibility onto himself. But that doesn't
take away the powerful mojo just worked on him. I don't know how anybody
could go on with a wedding right after what he's gone through.
The proximate cause of Xander walking out rests squarely on that demon.
Without him the wedding goes on. With him it doesn't. It's the demon's
stated purpose and the result he achieves. Xander is just his agent - his
patsy. And that demon isn't the product of anything Xander has done. He's
the product of Anya's vengeance demon past. The wedding doesn't fail
because of Xander's loss of courage. It fails because a thousand years of
cruel acts of vengeance are finally catching up to Anya.
Everybody is in such a stew about not seeing this coming for Xander and
missing that it's Anya that broke up the wedding. That's the twist. And
it's a good one. Hell, even Anya hasn't figured it out yet.
Even so, the visions given to Xander do matter. Probably will continue to
affect him. Partly because you don't forget something like that. Partly
because they do illuminate his nature and his fears. And partly because the
message that marriage to Anya isn't a good idea likely is correct. Let's
look at Xanders' two core fears.
Becoming his parents - the one most directly shown in the visions. This is
the single biggest defining characteristic of Xander. People have already
pointed out some of the long standing references to that in BtVS going back
to S1. His dream in Restless where going upstairs - taking his parents'
path - isn't the way out for him. Sleeping outside on Christmas Eve to get
away from the yelling. Sitting with his friends in the basement pretending
not to hear the yelling, crashing and broken glass from upstairs. And
assorted other references. But these scattered mentions through the series
don't represent scattered incidents in his life. For him this was
pervasive. It was every day life growing up in the Harris household.
Xander's whole personality is built out of that experience and his fear of
becoming that himself.
You're right that this aspect of Xander is rather less than overtly
referenced in the lead up to the marriage - that most of the jitters exist
naturally in the way they would with anyone. We, the audience, don't really
need to see overt references to an established part of Xander's personality,
but that's not the excuse. I think it's really part of the story. Xander
moved out of the basement a little more than a year ago. Put physical
distance between himself and that awful environment. That's good - and
certainly has helped him grow up in a number of ways. But that doesn't mean
that this core aspect of him has just gone away. He's only 21 and has still
spent 90+% if his life living at home. He's nowhere near over that - he's
just pushed it out of his mind for a while. Enough to let him get married.
But a shock reference can bring it all flooding back in. The kind of shock
the demon provides. And the kind of shock of actually watching his parents
in their full drunken glory at his wedding. People keep looking for the
lead in clues to how this is going to ruin the wedding. But they've got it
backwards. It's the wedding that draws it out of Xander. His problem is
that he *wasn't* thinking about it - and probably should have been.
The thing about the visions isn't so much that they remind him of his fears.
Rather, the literal living of them, showed him like never before how
grounded those fears were. What he learned at the wedding is that he really
was capable of being that. It's no longer an abstract possibility. He felt
how naturally all of it came to him. The person in the visions is someone
he really could be. And until that moment he hadn't truly faced it. Hadn't
worked out how to stop that from happening. Perhaps it really would be wise
to come to better terms with his own nature before entering a marriage. I
don't know - nobody does - including Xander and Anya - how things really
would have worked out. Whether the marriage would have been a good bet.
But it's not a crazy reason to draw Xander up short.
The other issue is, "Am I marrying a demon?" - This is probably the lesser
of the immediate concerns for Xander. (Though crucial for Anya.) And one
that probably mainly manifests as being afraid that he can't accept Anya as
she really is - tying into the first fear, which includes turning on his
wife. But the core of it has always been can he - should he - cope with the
vengeance demon part of Anya. It's something he's dealt with every day that
he's known Anya since the prom date where she regaled him with vengeance
stories. All his efforts to show Anya how to be human are also about taking
her away from her demon background. But it never really goes away. She
talks about it frequently - even is proud of it. Just recently we heard
Anya speak of why demons are better than people. Xander may be a demon
magnet when it comes to women, but his normal instinct is still to grab the
weapons and go kill the demon. In that sense he's a decidedly odd one to be
living with an ex-vengeance demon. But, of course, Anya is mighty endearing
too, and he's learned to live with her strange background and way of
thinking that he often doesn't approve of - assuming he even gets it. But
the concern lurks.
And on this front there has been a big honking bit of foreshadowing that
goes by the name of Halfrek. You see, Xander knows *about* Anya's past.
But he doesn't know vengeance demons. Halfrek is a sight to behold. And,
of course, that's the first thing he latches onto. Is that what Anya looked
like? But it was never really about looks. The real question - is that
what Anya was? Look at their first encounter.
Halfrek: I have been called, and vengeance shall I wreak. Cower, masculine
one ... tremble as you face my wrath!
Anya: Xander, I'm starting to think that maybe we should do a pot-luck
thing.
Xander: Honey?
Halfrek: Hello. I am here to tear this man apart. How many pieces do you
wish?
Anya: Halfrek!
Halfrek: Anyanka? Oh my god!
Suggesting that he be torn in pieces I'm sure doesn't thrill Xander, but the
disturbing part is that Halfrek and Anya are clearly good friends thrilled
to see each other. Now he sees what Anya used to be. What she still
relates to. He wishes it ended there. But it didn't. Halfrek went on to
perform a nasty little piece of vengeance in Dawn's name that Xander had a
front row seat for. It was bad enough seeing Halfrek in action, and so
remorseless in attitude. (Justice demon? They all deserved this?) But the
real kicker is that Halfrek went merrily along with her vengeance even
though it caught up her friend Anya, in the process. Is that what Anya was
like too? Is that something still inside Anya? Is that a clue to what
could happen to him? Hmmm. Did Anya boot Halfrek from the guest list
afterwards?
That's why Halfrek is here. To show what Anya was and maybe still could be.
The thing about Anya is that as lovable as she can be, as much work as she's
put into being human, there still remains the question of how human she's
really become. Does she in fact get it? Xander's invested a lot in the
humanizing of Anya. The last thing he wants to believe is that he's come up
short. Especially not after all the genuine love he's received from her.
But, you know, sometimes love really isn't enough. Just look at Spike. And
Xander can't avoid the worry. Halfrek won't let him. All the crazy demons
at the wedding won't let him. The demon that Anya herself created, and
who's come back to ply his own vengeance directly on Xander won't let him.
The vision including Anya cheating on him with a demon won't let him.
And it shouldn't. This is the greater reason why they shouldn't marry.
It's Anya, much more so than Xander, that really isn't ready for marriage.
Because mentally, she never quite stopped being demon. Now it's true
physically as well.
> Bottom line: this doesn't feel organic to the characters involved.
Look deeper.
> This feels like the writers wanted yet another episode to end with
> someone sobbing.
They wanted to take Anya where she needs to go.
I've pointed out a parallel between Anya and Spike before. Here is where it
comes to full flower. They each are or were immortals attempting to become
more human for the sake of love. They each used the object of their love as
their moral guide. They each made tremendous progress in their own fashion,
making themselves valuable and appreciated in their own way. But they both
fail in the end for the same reasons. The are unable to face their evil
demon sides and understand what's wrong with them. There's no guilt. No
remorse. No atonement. They just don't get it.
It's funny seeing all the outrage over the notion of letting Spike be
anything more than pure evil. But Anya was far more powerful than Spike,
and plied her trade far longer than him. What trail of blood and tears do
you suppose she has? Yes, Anya was made physically human and hasn't plied
her vengeance trade in years. But Spike hasn't been killing people either.
And Anya doesn't have Spike's excuse of no soul to explain her lack of
remorse.
Well, now it's Anya's turn for that to catch up with her. It's her sordid
past - literally - that has stepped forth to tear apart her wedding. She's
getting a taste of her own justice. And with all the wailing about how mean
Xander is to Anya, I must have missed the part where she told Xander that
any of this was her fault.
Anya was living a fairy tale. It was sweet and fun and even had a dashing
knight wooing her. Alas, it couldn't last. She was kidding herself and
everybody.
But Anya's is an epic tale - just like Spike. One that is not done. What
will Anya get out of this? Is she human? Or is she demon?
> So...
> One-sentence summary: All smoke and mirrors.
> AOQ rating: Weak
I love Anya and Xander. As individuals. And as a couple. Their pairing is
my favorite of all BtVS (and AtS for that matter) couples. And the one I
think worked best for the couple - except maybe Spike and Dru. Their love
was true, and they gave so much too each other. Anya was incredibly
fortunate to have found Xander as a role model for living human. Anya so
desperately needed that, and Xander gave his heart and soul. It was a great
gift that can't be lost even through this. Anya gave much back to Xander
too. She made him a man in ways he didn't know was in him. He's so much
stronger for it than I think he believed he had a right to be.
I have no joy in such a bitter split. But I don't think it negates any of
what came before. What they had was as genuine as it gets in this series.
But I think it had to end. Anya has to find redemption. And Xander can't
take her there.
I'm sorry the episode offends you so much. It is possible to see it
otherwise. This is one of my favorite BtVS episodes ever. It's a tragic
end to a great part of this couple's lives, and a scary place to step
forward from. But it's thrilling drama to me.
OBS
Rowan Hawthorn
> In article <y4Odnbc1FLo9BnbZ...@comcast.com>,
> "Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>> Willow grabs Tara and pulls her behind the floral arrangements,
>> Is that code?
>
> OK, who's keeping track of who owes whom keyboards?
Not me. <sigh> I lost track 'way back...
Arbitrar Of Quality
This is not the version of Xander that I'm familiar with. The one
who's had very limited exposure to magic, and been turned off. He's
seen firsthand how dangerous Willow can be, both to her enemies and to
the people she almost kills when things go wrong.
XANDER: Are you nuts, or have you forgotten that I tend to have bad
luck with these sorts of spells?
- "Lovers Walk"
He has shown a few signs of learning from his mistakes in that area,
and has avoided magic entirely since then. Him casting the spell in
OMWF, and avoiding helping do anything about it even after it becomes
clear how disturbing and dangerous it is, is a shoddy bit of writing
whose only uses are to provide a "surprise" in an episode that's good
enough not to need it, and to (badly) attempt to set up an episode
whose writing transcends shoddiness and jumps straight to "awful."
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> LAST person? Of all people, or just all main cast members on BtVS?
> Giles certainly doesn't have the same paternal love for Xander that he
> feels for Buffy (and to a lesser extent Dawn and Willow), but if you think
> he actually *dislikes* Xander, that's going too far. Look at them in the
> airport scene of Bargaining, for example, or the party scenes in All the
> Way. Giles may have found Xander disappointing or annoying at times, and
> Xander may have considered Giles old, uptight and an easy target at times,
> but on the whole they were pretty tight.
>
> (And even if you don't buy that, you'd have to agree that *Spike* would be
> the last character Giles would want to come visit!)
>
> As someone already pointed out, the shooting script had a scene explaining
> that Giles couldn't make it to the wedding and sent flowers instead. It
> was apparently cut for time. Personally, I think HB would have been
> better if they had kept that scene and trimmed out some of the "circus
> folk" jokes and Harris-demon fighting.
IAWTP, pretty much completely.
-AOQ
Ken from Chicago
No, silly, RUBBING the BACK of her kneecap. It's a very sensitive area.
She obviously had a lot of built up ... tension.
-- Ken from Chicago
One Bit Shy
>> Xander's experience up to OMWF teaches him that magic is almost always
>> safe and harmless. He's Willow's best friend, and she uses magic _all
>> the time_... so why shouldn't he?
>
> This is not the version of Xander that I'm familiar with. The one
> who's had very limited exposure to magic, and been turned off. He's
> seen firsthand how dangerous Willow can be, both to her enemies and to
> the people she almost kills when things go wrong.
>
> XANDER: Are you nuts, or have you forgotten that I tend to have bad
> luck with these sorts of spells?
> - "Lovers Walk"
>
> He has shown a few signs of learning from his mistakes in that area,
> and has avoided magic entirely since then. Him casting the spell in
> OMWF, and avoiding helping do anything about it even after it becomes
> clear how disturbing and dangerous it is, is a shoddy bit of writing
> whose only uses are to provide a "surprise" in an episode that's good
> enough not to need it, and to (badly) attempt to set up an episode
> whose writing transcends shoddiness and jumps straight to "awful."
I always figured Joss went for the joke without fully grasping the
implications. He's one of those -um- imperfect gods.
But I don't understand what you're referring to as using it to set up an
episode. What does Xander's ill chosen spell set up outside of OMWF?
OBS
Arbitrar Of Quality
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1156302445....@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> > OMWF, and avoiding helping do anything about it even after it becomes
> > clear how disturbing and dangerous it is, is a shoddy bit of writing
> > whose only uses are to provide a "surprise" in an episode that's good
> > enough not to need it, and to (badly) attempt to set up an episode
> > whose writing transcends shoddiness and jumps straight to "awful."
>
> I always figured Joss went for the joke without fully grasping the
> implications. He's one of those -um- imperfect gods.
Probably that's the main factor...
> But I don't understand what you're referring to as using it to set up an
> episode. What does Xander's ill chosen spell set up outside of OMWF?
... but I think the writers are trying to draw a connection between
Xander resorting to a spell to make a happy ending for himself and
Anya, and his decision not to get married until things are just right.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
One Bit Shy wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1156138041.7...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Six, Episode 15: "Hell's Bells"
>
> This may prove to be the most difficult response I've had to compose yet.
> For, you see, contrary to the typical reaction to this episode - including
> yours - this is a clear Excellent for me. And not just that. One of my
> favorite BtVS episodes of all time - currently sitting #7 on my BtVS top ten
> list.
I'll have that devastating comeback for you tomorrow.
-AOQ
One Bit Shy
LOL! You got me. But there's no episode quite like this for me. Sometimes
I just can't help myself. But you'll be happy to know that I pay for it
with too little sleep.
OBS
One Bit Shy
OIC. Well, I'm still trying to get my arms around the idea that he was
trying to fix anything with Anya at all. I'm not sure I grasp any purpose
to a song and dance spell beyond having a party.
OBS
Rowan Hawthorn
Assuming that whatever instructions were with the talisman (and there
must have been *some*, in order for Xander to have any clue whatsoever
of the talisman's relation to song and dance) actually referred to the
spell in terms of a "musical play," "musical theatre," "production," or
some such, rather than just music and dancing (which might have simply
meant: "There's gonna be a band",) then the association would be a
fairly simple one for Xander: 1) In the movies, or at the theatre,
musicals usually have a happy ending; 2) use this spell, we get a real,
live musical happening, 3) we get a happy ending.
...oops...
Elisi
One Bit Shy wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1156310872.6...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > One Bit Shy wrote:
> >> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:1156138041.7...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >>
> >>
> >> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> >> > Season Six, Episode 15: "Hell's Bells"
> >>
> >> This may prove to be the most difficult response I've had to compose yet.
> >> For, you see, contrary to the typical reaction to this episode -
> >> including
> >> yours - this is a clear Excellent for me. And not just that. One of my
> >> favorite BtVS episodes of all time - currently sitting #7 on my BtVS top
> >> ten
> >> list.
> >
> > I'll have that devastating comeback for you tomorrow.
>
> LOL! You got me. But there's no episode quite like this for me. Sometimes
> I just can't help myself. But you'll be happy to know that I pay for it
> with too little sleep.
>
> OBS
Damn! Something just ate my post. But what I wanted to say was that
your post was masterful and amazing!
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
>
> remeber giles is older than the rest
> his relation with buffy is part of job and duty as a watcher
> the others are brought in as buffys friends
> tolerated on buffys behalf
>
> what glimpses we see of his life outside a watcher
> he seems more drawn to older people like himself
> and would like to have an orgasm friend of his own
> closer to his own age and background
I mostly agree with that, as long as you don't push it too far. *At
first* Giles just tolerated Willow and Xander for Buffy's sake, but later
they became comrades in arms and, insofar as their age differences
allowed, real friends. And it's certainly true that there was a big age
difference, and Giles wished for a social life and an orgasm friend closer
to his own age and background. However, that just means the younger
Scoobies can't fulfill all his needs for companionship. It doesn't mean
that Giles actually *disliked* any of them, even the sometimes annoying
Xander.
One Bit Shy
You're sweet... and probably alone with the thought. But thanks.
----------
I just remembered what I think is an illuminating moment for Anya. At the
end of Older and Far Away, as everybody is walking out the door to the
blessed outside that had been denied them, Anya turns to Dawn and
says,"Dawnie, there are two words I want you to get used to... Punitive
damages."
Even when she's just been the victim of vengeance herself, you just can't
get the vengeance demon out of Anya.
OBS
Elisi
One Bit Shy wrote:
> > Damn! Something just ate my post. But what I wanted to say was that
> > your post was masterful and amazing!
>
> You're sweet... and probably alone with the thought. But thanks.
Oh no! If you don't mind, I'll copy the whole thing into my LJ and let
lots of other people benefit from your clever brain! :)
And I wrote you a comment on the whole Riley thing in AYW (in that
thread) if you're curious. I think I've thought more about it recently
than ever, thanks to your interesting perspective!
> ----------
>
> I just remembered what I think is an illuminating moment for Anya. At the
> end of Older and Far Away, as everybody is walking out the door to the
> blessed outside that had been denied them, Anya turns to Dawn and
> says,"Dawnie, there are two words I want you to get used to... Punitive
> damages."
>
> Even when she's just been the victim of vengeance herself, you just can't
> get the vengeance demon out of Anya.
>
> OBS
So true. And - I just remembered the other thing I wrote in the comment
that got eaten: I was half-expecting AOQ to give 'Hells Bells' an
Excellent, since he has in the past very much enjoyed episodes where
the angst is piled on (IWRY, 'Wild At Heart'). Funny how these things
turn out... :)
One Bit Shy
The oops part is pretty clear. The rest... I mean, I see the link to a
musical happy ending. It's just that the wedding is months off and the
marriage is for life. Was the musical supposed to go on forever? Happy
ending or not, the whole idea seems short term. A show.
Oh, well. I'm probably thinking through it too much. Xander wants things
to end happily. I suppose it doesn't matter how illogically he applies
that.
OBS
Michael Ikeda
>
> He has shown a few signs of learning from his mistakes in that
> area, and has avoided magic entirely since then. Him casting
> the spell in OMWF, and avoiding helping do anything about it
> even after it becomes clear how disturbing and dangerous it is
I tend to suspect that something about the spell prevented Xander
from realizing the connection until the "proper" moment.
After all, it wouldn't do to interrupt the music midstream...
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
One Bit Shy
>
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>
>> > Damn! Something just ate my post. But what I wanted to say was that
>> > your post was masterful and amazing!
>>
>> You're sweet... and probably alone with the thought. But thanks.
>
> Oh no! If you don't mind, I'll copy the whole thing into my LJ and let
> lots of other people benefit from your clever brain! :)
Uh - well, it's a public posting, so do as you wish. But it's not very well
edited. Way too many commas, ands, and buts.
> And I wrote you a comment on the whole Riley thing in AYW (in that
> thread) if you're curious. I think I've thought more about it recently
> than ever, thanks to your interesting perspective!
Yes, I saw. I have it up on my desktop now. I'm not sure if I'll respond
or not - I've been sticking my nose into too many places here lately and
keep leaving conversations hanging for lack of time. But I really enjoyed
that Machiavelli post, even if I'm not entirely convinced by it.
>
>> ----------
>>
>> I just remembered what I think is an illuminating moment for Anya. At
>> the
>> end of Older and Far Away, as everybody is walking out the door to the
>> blessed outside that had been denied them, Anya turns to Dawn and
>> says,"Dawnie, there are two words I want you to get used to... Punitive
>> damages."
>>
>> Even when she's just been the victim of vengeance herself, you just can't
>> get the vengeance demon out of Anya.
>>
>> OBS
>
> So true. And - I just remembered the other thing I wrote in the comment
> that got eaten: I was half-expecting AOQ to give 'Hells Bells' an
> Excellent, since he has in the past very much enjoyed episodes where
> the angst is piled on (IWRY, 'Wild At Heart'). Funny how these things
> turn out... :)
Yeah, but hardly anybody responds well to this. Xander's stated reason for
his decision is constructed to virtually assure loathing for him and what he
did. Leaving someone at the altar invokes a kind of automatic emotional
feeling that this is one of the great sins that man can commit - the kind
that has a special place in hell reserved for it. Xander's explanation by
itself is the kind that demands to know why he proposed in the first place
and built Anya's hopes and dreams to their highest conceivable point, where
tearing them down hurts the most, over something he should have known all
along. By normal standards it's just not a good enough reason to renege on
such a solemn promise.
I believe that's a deliberate construct in the writing. Maximum pain for
Anya. Maximum guilt for Xander. Maximum misdirect away from the other
underlying cause - the one with greater lasting implications. But I think
the writers may have done too good a job at it and somehow disguised the
elephant in the living room. I mean that was a literally larger than life
demon standing in the middle of the room for everybody to see and hear,
telling Anya directly that he's a victim of her vengeance returned to pay
her back by using Xander as a patsy to ruin her wedding. I think that
counts as in plain view. Yet everybody blames Xander. AOQ himself
describes it as Xander ripping out Anya's heart and sending her running to
D'Hoffryn.
I wonder what the writers think of this reaction. Did they expect it? It's
not like they didn't include things about the demon/human conflict in the
story past and present. I suppose that something like wanting people to
wear the traditional burlap and blood larva may be too amusing to recognize
as representing Anya's ongoing identification with demonhood. But it's
actually kind of blatant - practically blurting that she misses being a
demon. There's been a goodly amount of that of late what with going on
about why demons are better than people and being so buddy buddy with
Halfrek even though Hally is transparently trying to drive a wedge between
Anya and Xander.
At the wedding you've got a room literally divided between humans and demons
that breaks into a wild brawl. Pretty strong symbolism. But in case you
don't get it, Xander pulls Buffy aside so that he personally can kill the
demon with a ridiculously large blunt object. Do you think he might have an
issue with the demon part of Anya? And D'Hoffryn - the lord of all
vengeance - doesn't even mention Xander to Anya. He blames Anya. Says she
let them domesticate her and vengeance is where she belongs. Do you think
there might be an unresolved internal conflict of Anya's besides Xander?
And does anybody remember how she became a vengeance demon to begin with?
Might Anya have a wee problem with rejection perhaps? One that she's
obsessed over for as long as we've known her and whose grand plan for
dealing with it is for it never to happen again? The girl's got issues.
But Xander's poor attempt to explain and take on the burden of it being all
his fault somehow overwhelms all else and really does make it all his
fault - in other people's eyes at least. Did the writers intend that?
OBS
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
>> your post was masterful and amazing!
>
> You're sweet... and probably alone with the thought. But thanks.
I for one was quite favorably impressed by your long Hell's Bells post.
(Impressed, and maybe a little intimidated.)
One Bit Shy
news:12epnqb...@corp.supernews.com...
> One Bit Shy <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>> "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> Damn! Something just ate my post. But what I wanted to say was that
>>> your post was masterful and amazing!
>>
>> You're sweet... and probably alone with the thought. But thanks.
>
> I for one was quite favorably impressed by your long Hell's Bells post.
> (Impressed, and maybe a little intimidated.)
I'm really sorry about that last. I think I have a genetic inability to be
succinct.
OBS
Clairel
Ken from Chicago wrote:
> "Clairel" <reld...@usa.net> wrote in message
> news:1156193545....@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > threads.
> >
> >
> > Season Six, Episode 15: "Hell's Bells"
> > Writer: Rebecca Rand Kirshner
> > Director: David Solomon
> >
> > The very first thing I said once this started was "let's hope no
> > one leaves anyone at the altar. I don't know if I could take that.
> > But if they're going to use a cliché, I assume they'll at least
> > subvert it."
> >
> > This one starts off pretty well, with our heroes displaying appropriate
> > horror with regards to the bridesmaids' dresses. Apparently just the
> > sight of a supernatural old man after suggestive dialogue is enough to
> > qualify for the end-of teaser suspense moment.
> >
> > I made a comment last week about how hearing about the hellish antics
> > that'd happen when the two families collided was more fun than
> > a few smiles with Xander's dad successfully managing, when shown in
> > small doses, that trick of irritating everyone except the audience with
> > his unplumbed depths of crass. Plus, Clem is in a few scenes. Hi,
> > Clem! Interspersed with that, we have a few tender moments amongst our
> > heroes, which don't tend to stand out but are acceptable. The gag at
> > the end of the Buffy/Xander exchange is a highlight, though: "I hope
> > I'm as lucky as you guys someday." "You wanna get lucky? I've
> > still got, what, fifteen, twenty minutes?" The affection in the
> > vows are great - the first time, anyway.
> >
> > very effective bit of storytelling. The slices of life show things
> > gradually get older and uglier over the years. Tantalizing little
> > details make this short sequence richer. Take NightmareScenario!Xander
> > (hereafter prefixed "NS!") being unable to work because of a failed
> > attempt to help Buffy against something unspecified. Hey, it's a
> > premise that ties into something that's been discussed in past X/A
> > scenes. Also, the vision ends with NS!Xander attacking and possibly
> > killing NS!Anya. That would be exactly Xander's worst fear at a time
> > like this, and it's the only thing that could... well, okay, nothing
> > could make the ending of HB work. (Hmm, does it seem like a certain
> > review is about to take a very sharp bitter turn?) But if anything
> > could, it'd be this.
> >
> > me at this point, especially since the followup to "all they bring
> > each other is pain" is Buffy and Spike. They may be doomed to be one
> > of those couples who're more fun for me when they're pining for
> > each other than when they're actually together, since this is a great
> > little exchange, very well scripted and performed. Funny, but only in
> > a better-to-laugh-than-mope kinda way. "But it hurts?"
> > "Yeah." "Thanks."
>
> discussions, but I had to comment on the S/B scene in Hell's Bells.
> AOQ, your perception that it's exceptionally well-scripted is right on
> the mark: Joss himself rewrote the S/B encounter completely, scrapping
> Rebecca Rand Kirshner's version of their encounter which basically just
> consisted of cold glares and mean, sniping remarks. In the RRK
> version, Spike makes innuendoes about knowing his date "in the Biblical
> sense," and is arrogant and un-apologetic all the way through -- as is
> Buffy. I much prefer Joss's version, with the kindness shown on both
> sides. I've always thought of it as Joss's way of showing how sweet an
> S/B pairing *could* be if there were no obstacles in the way of it.
>
> <snip>
>
> Late S5 and early S6 aka before they're sleeping together.
--No, not exactly. The S/B scene in "Hell's Bells" is predicated on
the two of them "knowing" each other (in the Biblical sense). There's
a whole different feel to it than in late season 5 and early season 6,
when they were trembling on the brink.
AOQ, if you're reading this, I would love to know what you think of the
difference between the two versions of the S/B encounter, as scripted
by Joss and as scripted by Rand Kirshner. I'm sorry I can't quote the
Rand Kirshner version verbatim, but I don't have the text of it any
more. It's very much as I described it above on this thread.
Clairel
Clairel
cry...@panix.com
> One Bit Shy wrote:
> > Elisi wrote:
> >
> > > Damn! Something just ate my post. But what I wanted to say
> > > was that your post was masterful and amazing!
> >
> > You're sweet... and probably alone with the thought. But
> > thanks.
>
> Oh no! If you don't mind, I'll copy the whole thing into my LJ
> and let lots of other people benefit from your clever brain! :)
I thought it was very insightful too, and was quite happy it
included my favorite relevant tidbit (Restless: "That's not the
way out"). A lot of people seem to miss that, though I think it's
pretty clear foreshadowing of Hell's Bells, as the core issue it
brings up remains true through this episode.
I appreciate the long analytical posts even if I don't comment
on them most of the time. I imagine there are lurkers who don't
post at all who enjoy them, too.
> So true. And - I just remembered the other thing I wrote in the
> comment that got eaten: I was half-expecting AOQ to give 'Hells
> Bells' an Excellent, since he has in the past very much enjoyed
> episodes where the angst is piled on (IWRY, 'Wild At Heart').
> Funny how these things turn out... :)
I never know what to expect with AOQ. But I imagine other people
would think the same of my taste in episodes if I were reviewing,
so I'm not one to throw stones :-)
--
-Crystal
Stephen Tempest
>I'm really sorry about that last. I think I have a genetic inability to be
>succinct.
I know the feeling. :) I've actually started to re-read my posts
before sending (when I remember, which isn't always) to see if there's
anything I can cut out. Otherwise the meaning seems to get lost amid
the verbiage...
Incidentally, I agree withthe others - it was a very thought-provoking
analysis.
Stephen
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> <chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu> wrote in message
> news:12epnqb...@corp.supernews.com...
> > One Bit Shy <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> >> "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >>> Damn! Something just ate my post. But what I wanted to say was that
> >>> your post was masterful and amazing!
> >>
> >> You're sweet... and probably alone with the thought. But thanks.
> >
> > I for one was quite favorably impressed by your long Hell's Bells post.
> > (Impressed, and maybe a little intimidated.)
>
> I'm really sorry about that last. I think I have a genetic inability to be
> succinct.
dont
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
Ian Galbraith
tomys des anges wrote:
> In article <12eppqp...@news.supernews.com>,
> "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
>> <chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu> wrote in message
>> news:12epnqb...@corp.supernews.com...
>>> One Bit Shy <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>>>> "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> Damn! Something just ate my post. But what I wanted to say was that
>>>>> your post was masterful and amazing!
>>>>
>>>> You're sweet... and probably alone with the thought. But thanks.
>>>
>>> I for one was quite favorably impressed by your long Hell's Bells post.
>>> (Impressed, and maybe a little intimidated.)
>>
>> I'm really sorry about that last. I think I have a genetic inability to be
>> succinct.
>
> dont
Seconded, verbiage can be a good thing when what you say is worth
reading.
--
You can't stop the signal
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Ian Galbraith <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
really?
Arbitrar Of Quality
> AOQ, if you're reading this, I would love to know what you think of the
> difference between the two versions of the S/B encounter, as scripted
> by Joss and as scripted by Rand Kirshner. I'm sorry I can't quote the
> Rand Kirshner version verbatim, but I don't have the text of it any
> more. It's very much as I described it above on this thread.
Well I can't really compare, then. All I can say is that I like it
very much the way it was filmed; I can maybe imagine Spike being pissy
(but even so, he tends not to be able to keep that up where Buffy is
concerned), but Buffy's fondness and regret follows much more naturally
from the last scene of "As You Were" than a bitter version would.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
One Bit Shy wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> But I don't get how something as moving as I
> believe this episode is can be trashed as readily as people do. And I don't
> get people's overwhelming focus on Xander when there is another half to this
> partnership - Anya - who plays a thunderously important part in this
> episode, in the foundation of the whole situation, and in where this points
> to the future. It's like half of the episode and most of its foundation and
> purpose is being blacked out. Weird.
It's because the episode the show gives us is primarily about Xander.
Anya's important in the backstory, but she spends most of HB being
the excitied bride and the jilted bride, whereas Xander is the one who
has his family spotlighted, gets the vision, gets cold feet, and is
ultimately the one to initiate the lame melodrama. So that's where
one's first-viewing attention tends to gravitate.
You ask in a followup post if the writers have deliberately or
unwittingly hidden the elephant-demon in the room of Anya's past.
Well, regardless of the intention, HB as presented will make one
remember Xander leaving his bride at the altar for reasons which make
sense only to him, not where Anya's past plays in. When one sees
this much depth in an episode so universally reviled, either the
writers aren't doing their jobs (at least not in terms of
constructing the episde to properly bring out the layers), or the depth
isn't there at all.
> But for a moment - a pretty long moment
> actually - this episode serves a function somewhat akin to what The Prom did
> in S3 by giving the characters a chance to just be happy.
Unlike "The Prom," they don't get to spend their night together
and relaxed, though. The earlier episode is set against an air of
impending doom, which makes it all the more important to have that
night - this one is one where the viewer has the sinking suspicion
that an outside mechanism is going to sabotage this, so it's harder
to get into the joy. In that respect I'd compare it more to
something like "I Will Remember You" - you know it's not going
to last.
> Not exactly a return to the old days of musketeer like unity I know - I
> think they've all grown up too much into their own lives to really pull that
> off anymore. But the bonds tying Buffy to her friends remain, and it's nice
ÿ to see.
True.
> > In the end we take a second to sabotage the drama we've built up by
> > having it just be an Evil Thing.
>
> I'm curious. Did you buy into the idea that he was Xander's future self? > I really don't know how convincing that is. When I first saw this
> episode, I had just started watching the series and understood very
> little of it. The
> next time I saw it, I knew it wasn't really Xander all along.
I thought it might be. The idea that things might have gone so wrong,
at least under one set of circumstances, certainly makes for a better
story (for me) than the smoke and mirrors.
> OK. Let's look at the foundation for Xander's part. Starting with set up
> elements that you observe above. I don't see you directly say it, but it
> appears to me that you're implying that this set of pre-wedding jitters
> doesn't add up to walking out. I agree. It doesn't. And it didn't. The
> wedding was going to happen - until the demon entered the picture.
Well, there you go. That's a major problem for most of us, who see a
wedding that would have gone through except for the heavy hand of the
writer getting involved. And however much the demon relates to Anya,
Xander is still the one who makes the unilateral decision to walk away,
so the series has to lay the character groundwork for it to happen.
Which it entirely fails to do. The show plays it as Xander having an
epiphany (well, "epiphany" isn't the right word given how
confused he is) about himself, particularly with regard to his family.
If the show wanted to make him as helpless as you suggest, a victim of
Anya's demon's maneuvering, it could've done a much better job at
conveying that. (I also don't like the notion that he's so
powerless to make his own decisions even about the most important
people in his life.)
> Becoming his parents - the one most directly shown in the visions. This is
> the single biggest defining characteristic of Xander. People have already
> pointed out some of the long standing references to that in BtVS going back
> to S1. His dream in Restless where going upstairs - taking his parents'
> path - isn't the way out for him. Sleeping outside on Christmas Eve to get
> away from the yelling. Sitting with his friends in the basement pretending
> not to hear the yelling, crashing and broken glass from upstairs. And
> assorted other references. But these scattered mentions through the series
> don't represent scattered incidents in his life. For him this was
> pervasive. It was every day life growing up in the Harris household.
> Xander's whole personality is built out of that experience and his fear of
> becoming that himself.
[snip]
> People keep looking for the
> lead in clues to how this is going to ruin the wedding. But they've got it
> backwards. It's the wedding that draws it out of Xander. His problem is
> that he *wasn't* thinking about it - and probably should have been.
I wouldn't call fear of becoming his parents the single biggest
defining characteristic of Xander, considering how rarely it comes up.
He's got a fundamental uncertainty and lack of confidence, but that
doesn't always manifest since he can be quite courageous and capable
when the circumstances are right too. This side of him is linked
obliquely to his home life in "Restless" and others, but I'm not
convinced it's the only source. In any case, for such a "defining
trait," it hasn't manifested itself in any of his other
relationships, including this one prior to HB, and almost never does in
the way he treats his friends and those close to him.
As far as the wedding and the associated supernatural hooey drawing it
out of him, that's as good an explanation as any other, and lets me
hate "Hell's Bells" slightly less.
> The thing about the visions isn't so much that they remind him of his fears.
> Rather, the literal living of them, showed him like never before how
> grounded those fears were. What he learned at the wedding is that he really
> was capable of being that. It's no longer an abstract possibility. He felt
> how naturally all of it came to him. The person in the visions is someone
> he really could be.
[shrug] I can't speak for Xander, but this is not news to me. We
constantly live with momentary fantasies of terrible things, the fact
that we're all capable of great malice and have the drive for it
somewhere inside us. It's a human thing, and, like wedding jitters,
pretty normal.
> All his efforts to show Anya how to be human are also about taking
> her away from her demon background. But it never really goes away. She
> talks about it frequently - even is proud of it. Just recently we heard
> Anya speak of why demons are better than people.
Not really a response to the point being made here, but it seems like
it's worth addressing before I forget: there's a lot of talk about
Anya still identifying with her demon side. I knew something had
vaguely bothered me abut the scene in "Gone" when she starts going
on about inviting demons, and now I know why. My memory isn't 100%,
but did this love of blood-larvae attire and demon families exist at
all prior to mid-S6? Before that, ever since Xander, I can't recall
any example of her trying to do anything other than throw herself
completely into her new life as a human.
> I've pointed out a parallel between Anya and Spike before. Here is where it
> comes to full flower. They each are or were immortals attempting to become
> more human for the sake of love. They each used the object of their love as
> their moral guide. They each made tremendous progress in their own fashion,
> making themselves valuable and appreciated in their own way. But they both
> fail in the end for the same reasons. The are unable to face their evil
> demon sides and understand what's wrong with them. There's no guilt. No
> remorse. No atonement. They just don't get it.
>
> It's funny seeing all the outrage over the notion of letting Spike be
> anything more than pure evil. But Anya was far more powerful than Spike,
> and plied her trade far longer than him. What trail of blood and tears do
> you suppose she has? Yes, Anya was made physically human and hasn't plied
> her vengeance trade in years. But Spike hasn't been killing people either.
> And Anya doesn't have Spike's excuse of no soul to explain her lack of
> remorse.
But to me it's much the same. She wasn't a person anymore, and
after the initial bits of revenge, really had no memory of what it was
to be human, as has been adequately demonstrated. She doesn't show
remorse for her past actions, true, but that's not really why most
people dislike her, or Spike, or whoever (even Angel has fond memories
of his dark days). People don't like the show to get too sympathetic
towards Spike because he's still evil, to this day. Very unlike
Spike, Anya seemingly loses interest in being restored to her former
self, more interested in the fun new feelings of pelvic interdigitation
and, later, love. Not only does she lack the capacity to go back to
making people miserable, she lacks the motivation and the desire.
Thanks to Xander, she's embraced change, or at least appeared to
until the end of this episode.
That being said, I don't object to the notion of her past catching up
to her, I just object to "Hell's Bells."
-AOQ
Elisi
One Bit Shy wrote:
> Uh - well, it's a public posting, so do as you wish. But it's not very well
> edited. Way too many commas, ands, and buts.
Yay! (Also I already posted your very insightful stuff about Spike back
when we were doing FFL, so it's a little late for asking! *g* People
were very impressed!)
>
> > And I wrote you a comment on the whole Riley thing in AYW (in that
> > thread) if you're curious. I think I've thought more about it recently
> > than ever, thanks to your interesting perspective!
>
> Yes, I saw. I have it up on my desktop now. I'm not sure if I'll respond
> or not - I've been sticking my nose into too many places here lately and
> keep leaving conversations hanging for lack of time. But I really enjoyed
> that Machiavelli post, even if I'm not entirely convinced by it.
Please leave it - either Riley is a nice, slightly dumb guy who
literally hasn't changed an iota since early S4, or he's quite a smart
guy, getting his revenge etc. And it's impossible to tell which was
intended. I'll just bury it again. :)
About all your extra stuff about HB, then I doubt we'll ever find out.
Apparently the commentary is the worst ever and illuminates nothing.
See you in the 'Entropy' thread!
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
>> I for one was quite favorably impressed by your long Hell's Bells post.
>> (Impressed, and maybe a little intimidated.)
>
> I'm really sorry about that last. I think I have a genetic inability to be
> succinct.
Don't be sorry. I didn't mean it was too much to read. I meant that all
was good, and too much goodness ... makes me feel really inadequate by
comparison.
James Craine
One Bit Shy wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1156138041.7...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>>Season Six, Episode 15: "Hell's Bells"
>
>
> This may prove to be the most difficult response I've had to compose yet.
> For, you see, contrary to the typical reaction to this episode - including
> yours - this is a clear Excellent for me. And not just that. One of my
> favorite BtVS episodes of all time - currently sitting #7 on my BtVS top ten
> list.
Snip much.
>
> I'm sorry the episode offends you so much. It is possible to see it
> otherwise. This is one of my favorite BtVS episodes ever. It's a tragic
> end to a great part of this couple's lives, and a scary place to step
> forward from. But it's thrilling drama to me.
>
> OBS
Well... when you put it like that it seems a whole lot
better now that it ever has before. (This is the first time
I have ever read a 600 line post.) I'm in the "one of the
worst episodes ever" camp for HB. But your analysis is very
good, and I never picked up on the idea that Anya is really
the one to wreck her own wedding... thanks.
But then there is the question, 'why did I hate HB' when it
was at least overseen by one of the greatest TV writers of
all time. Why didn't it 'feel' like it was more Anya's
fault. Why did it 'feel' like (A) it was all Xander's fault
and (B) it was completly out of character for Xander?
Perhaps, for me, it is at least partly because season 6
feels so much like a huge continuity error, and HB is a part
of S6.
George W Harris
<rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
:Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
:> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
:> threads.
:>
:>
:> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
:> Season Six, Episode 15: "Hell's Bells"
:> (or "What a tale of terror, now, their turbulency tells!")
:> Writer: Rebecca Rand Kirshner
:> Director: David Solomon
:>
:> This one starts off pretty well, with our heroes displaying appropriate
:> horror with regards to the bridesmaids' dresses.
:
:And I completely agree with Willow: as best man(?!) she *should* have
:been "all Marlene Dietrichey in a dashing tuxedo number." Would have
:been the highlight of the episode. As it is, I have to go with the
:following:
Of course, as best man, she should have grabbed
the X-man by his shiny lapels and smacked some sense into
his silly head, pointing out that, "*yes*, you might hurt her, or
she might hurt you, but, dammit, I'm not going to let you throw
away the best thing that ever happened to you the way I
almost threw away the best thing that ever happened to me!"
--
Never give a loaded gun to a woman in labor.
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.
George W Harris
:Anya is
:unfaithful (not just unfaithful; she's cheating on him with a demon),
Not just a demon, but apparently with Clem. Those
ears look awfully familiar.
--
"Intelligence is too complex to capture in a single number." -Alfred Binet
George W Harris
:> One thing I did wonder is whether the woman with him was another
:> vampire, or just someone he picked up in a bar, or what.
:>
:>
:>
:Was she the girl turned in School Hard, the one who was supposed to help
:Buffy with parents' night? What was her name, Sheila???
Yes, Sheila, played by Alexandra Johnes. Spike's
date is listed as being named Tarantula, and was played by
Rebecca Jackson, whose credits are...sparse. Alexandra
Johnes' resume isn't much more extensive; their
appearances on Buffy signaled the ends of their respective
careers in TV or film.
:
:
:Mel
--
"It is always a simple matter to drag people along whether it is a
democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist
dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the
bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them
they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of
patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every
country."
-Hermann Goering
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.
Rowan Hawthorn
> On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 10:51:58 -0400, Rowan Hawthorn
> <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> :Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> :> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> :> threads.
> :>
> :>
> :> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> :> Season Six, Episode 15: "Hell's Bells"
> :> (or "What a tale of terror, now, their turbulency tells!")
> :> Writer: Rebecca Rand Kirshner
> :> Director: David Solomon
> :>
> :> This one starts off pretty well, with our heroes displaying appropriate
> :> horror with regards to the bridesmaids' dresses.
> :
> :And I completely agree with Willow: as best man(?!) she *should* have
> :been "all Marlene Dietrichey in a dashing tuxedo number." Would have
> :been the highlight of the episode. As it is, I have to go with the
> :following:
>
> Of course, as best man, she should have grabbed
> the X-man by his shiny lapels and smacked some sense into
> his silly head, pointing out that, "*yes*, you might hurt her, or
> she might hurt you, but, dammit, I'm not going to let you throw
> away the best thing that ever happened to you the way I
> almost threw away the best thing that ever happened to me!"
>
Well... yeah. But - tuxedo! Focus, man, focus...
One Bit Shy
news:a79Ig.705316$Fs1.6...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
>
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1156138041.7...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>>>Season Six, Episode 15: "Hell's Bells"
>>
>>
>> This may prove to be the most difficult response I've had to compose yet.
>> For, you see, contrary to the typical reaction to this episode -
>> including
>> yours - this is a clear Excellent for me. And not just that. One of my
>> favorite BtVS episodes of all time - currently sitting #7 on my BtVS top
>> ten
>> list.
>
> Snip much.
>
>>
>> I'm sorry the episode offends you so much. It is possible to see it
>> otherwise. This is one of my favorite BtVS episodes ever. It's a tragic
>> end to a great part of this couple's lives, and a scary place to step
>> forward from. But it's thrilling drama to me.
>>
>> OBS
>
> Well... when you put it like that it seems a whole lot better now that it
> ever has before. (This is the first time I have ever read a 600 line
> post.) I'm in the "one of the worst episodes ever" camp for HB. But your
> analysis is very good, and I never picked up on the idea that Anya is
> really the one to wreck her own wedding... thanks.
It's also interesting in reconsidering its setup over time and in the
episode. It's a different kind of lead in than Xander's personal issues
that can be reflected as personal doubts and directly linked to the marriage
itself. Anya doesn't have those kind of internal doubts, nor is her
influence on the outcome especially related to the wedding - that's just the
opportunity that presents itself. Its also the kind of issue that naturally
arises unexpectedly. Anya obviously isn't looking for a past victim to get
back at her.
But it still is set up. You've got Anya's whole history as a baseline -
kind of corresponding to Xander's baseline of insecurities. During the
engagement you have Anya's increasing - even blatant - self identification
with her demon past. Xander's question in OMWF of whether he's marrying a
demon. Halfrek's return, which in retrospect points squarely at Anya. Is
that who Anya really is? And then all of these demons at the wedding in
constant conflict with the humans.
> But then there is the question, 'why did I hate HB' when it was at least
> overseen by one of the greatest TV writers of all time. Why didn't it
> 'feel' like it was more Anya's fault. Why did it 'feel' like (A) it was
> all Xander's fault and (B) it was completly out of character for Xander?
> Perhaps, for me, it is at least partly because season 6 feels so much like
> a huge continuity error, and HB is a part of S6.
Well, I'm not going to attempt to go into your trouble with S6 as a whole,
but I do recognize how lame Xander's reasoning appears on the face of it -
how easily it can send one into just disliking him and finding the whole
thing less interesting than it is distasteful. I've speculated that the
writers did too good a job with that aspect.
But it's hard for me to take that further than speculative, for it never
really came across that way to me.
Xander's internal turmoil is real. The issues that make him choose as he
does really are there in him - as many have explained - and are ones he
probably should have dealt with before proposing. But the thing is, he
thought he had - enough to get past them anyway. He really was going to get
married. It's Anya's demon that wakes the demons within him. Compels him
to see himself and marriage in a fashion that he can't get past. He's just
not the same person afterwards.
Which to me is truly sublime vengeance perpetrated upon Anya. It's not just
a wedding day mess that might be fixed in the days after upon further
reflection by both. Instead it's something that drives Xander and Anya both
into a place that can't be recovered from. The impact of those visions upon
Xander aren't something that will ever go away. Now he knows what he's
capable of not by potential, but by a living memory of actually doing it.
And Anya, well she's just forsaken all of her humanity. Both represent
weaknesses within each of them, but still are something inflicted upon them
by an angry demon after payback.
Why exactly that doesn't get across effectively to so many people is a
mystery to me. As is making it so exclusively Xander's fault in people's
minds. It all seems blatant to me. Powerful magic worked on Xander by a
demon shown to be getting back at Anya because of the vengeance she once
applied to him. It's all out in the open. But obviously it doesn't get
across that way to most people.
In any case, thank you for reading through the lengthy post. (Perhaps
that's my act of vengeance. <g>) And for treating it fairly.
OBS
Lydia Nickerson
>I'm more likely to agree with your assesment that the writers were
>connecting the dots rather than writing something that grows from the
>story being told or the people about whom it's being told.
Seems like there are too many minor characters that make an appearance
for it to be a rush job. Coordinating actor's schedules is not
something you can just do over a week end.
The only retcon I can come up with to make this episode work is for the
crystal ball to cause Xander to have an unreasonably strong fear, like
it was a fear amplifier. Otherwise, leaving Anya at the altar is not in
character. In a blind panic like that, I'd really expect Xander to just
sort of freeze, and go through the wedding, and then tell Anya he
thinks it was a terrible idea and move out. I mean, he does run away
from stuff, but usually in a passive way.
--
----
Lydia Nickerson ly...@demesne.com ly...@dd-b.net