AOQ Review 6-5: "All The Way"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Six, Episode 5: "All The Way"
(or "Killed By The Hell(mouth): The New Class")
Writer: Steven S. DeKnight
Director: David Solomon
Halloween tends to be eventful every other year in Sunnydale, it seems.
This time around the threat is a simple vampire attack... so much for
them never coming out this night.
This one is kind of a story in three parts. First, you have Xander
finally going ahead and letting the others know about the engagement,
set against the backdrop of a big Halloween day at the Magic Shop. Not
much to say about the costume banter, except that you have to admire
Xander's determination with the pirate talk even if you don't like
him not taking a hint. And Buffy having last episode's experience in
retail foremost on her mind works nicely. Looks like Dawn's a thief;
parents these days...
Anyway, the engagement is an occasion that calls for the good
drinkstuffs and a gathering of friends. It's always nice seeing the
gang look happy. "You're very lucky. Finding a guy like him." -
I wonder if Dawn's pretty much over Xander by this point. The
discussion outside the house paints Buffy as his relationship counselor
again, where the reverse has been more common lately. I know the crew
don't generally give good advice, but here I'd tend to side with
her not to read too much into his engagement misgivings and weird
feelings. It makes perfect sense to me as a natural stage to go
through; he's has problems with commitments before, and this is a big
one. And Anya can be a lot to handle.
The second part of the show concerns Dawn sneaking out and generally
being young and dumb. She does actually appear to know people her own
age, although I notice it's a different 'best friend' than in
"The Body." This plot makes use of some basic old-fashioned
misdirection, akin to what Dawnie's sister might've had to deal
with in the early years of the show. It definitely drags early on,
with all the focus on the old toymaker. But the moment in which he's
abruptly killed, by the guys we probably kinda suspected of being
vampires but were getting distracted away from by the guy's
child-molester manner and his eerie "little mistake," helps put
things together. Sometimes a crazy old guy is just a crazy old guy -
you just can't be sure which are the bad ones. I feel a little sad
for him.
Plenty of time goes into Dawn trying to score. The scenes together
with Justin are decent. Mrs. Quality was very anxious, to say the
least, for her to shut the hell up during her long neurotic drone after
the first kiss. I guess I didn't mind overly much -
Trachtenberg's voice doesn't grate for me as intensively as I guess
it does for some. Dawn-haters will likely find plenty of ammunition in
this episode - she's kinda stupid. Stupid going into the creepy
old guy's house, and stupid going off alone with a strange boy. I
just see it as something similar to the attempts at rebellious moments
that Buffy's had in the past - why can't she do "normal"
things and act like a high-school kid is supposed to (although I
don't know if anyone still "parks" nowadays)? Unlike Buffy, she
doesn't even have a sacred duty to juggle, she just comes from a
Slayer family.
And more on Dawn in a moment, but the third plotline is weaved in among
the first two. Willow's friends tend to be worried about the amount
of magic she uses, and Tara is the next one to object. Here it starts
over something minor, decorations, which makes sense, since it's the
casually throwing spells around that seems more gratuitous than using
them in battle. The falling out between the two of them is
successfully portrayed in all the ways that the one in "Tough Love"
failed. The two get to have a real conversation about the issues, even
with Willow trying to get defensive and shift the topic. And the
audience gets a closer look into the way both characters' minds work.
Willow's just not making the same distinction that seems so
clear-cut to Tara between the various types of "helping." One
comment from Mrs. Q. about the followup in the Bronze (I like the
spell, and the infested roots, by the way) is that it plays like a
conversation about drugs. I don't know if the parallels are all that
clear, but those who like such things can look at it as another example
of the show using real-world analogies for uniquely Buffyverse
situations rather than the other way around. It's a little hard to
watch, in a good way, the way they can't communicate and Tara finally
storms off.
The fights at the end are very energetic, and do a lot for my opinion
of the episode. Action Hero Ripper makes a rare appearance, and saving
Dawn's friend is one time where it's good to see. Then he's
surrounded by vampires wanting to do things the hard way, until Spike
casually strolls in to make an appearance. There's a thoroughly dumb
but still highly fun exchange of criticisms and stuff leading up to
"uh, excuse me! Can we fight now?" Then once the episode's
climax starts, Giles is even better, catching a stake and very
violently doing some impaling. I actually said "awesome" at some
point (I still use that word, and I'm not even that old). Spike's
disdainful killing ("no, I'm a rebel. You're an idiot") is
also a plus, as is the door-assisted beheading.
The final exchange between Dawn and Justin got me thinking. "I
thought you really liked me." "I do. And you like me too." "I
do." On the one level, we do see Dawn finally showing that she has a
rudimentary amount of intelligence, being disappointed over losing a
potential boyfriend but aware that she really ought to kill him anyway.
On another level, this ties in to the animal aspect of the Buffyverse
vampire. There's no reason not to believe him that he really does
like Dawn. He wants to eat and turn her because that's what he does,
being a vampire and all, and wants to share it. In this case it seems
less about conscious evil and more about nature, like breathing. That
may also be part of why Spike was so profoundly affected by being
forced to survive without being able to act on his instinctive physical
needs. Just thinking out loud here, not sure what my point is.
All in all, the story here doesn't reinvent the wheel, but I enjoyed
it enough to hand out a low Good. And in the end, ATW shows more
explicitly that it's continuing to slowly advance some of the
important ongoing stories and issues of the still-young Season Six.
Buffy seems to be moving into the position where she leans on Giles
more and more to do the parental stuff, and act like he's the one
who's Dawn's legal guardian. This status quo seems unlikely to
last without another long talk. And then there's that deliciously
creepy last scene, with Willow and Tara. They're at the point in a
relationship at which it's time to uncomfortably accept that there
are differences that won't go away, but that now isn't the best
time to try to hammer them out. And then Willow goes with the easy
out. That's unnatural at best, and verges on mind-rape at worst.
The very quick-n-casual spell, and her satisfied grin at the end are
both effective. Quite an unsettling way to end such a "minor"
episode.
This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s); Special
Engagement Edition:
- The extended "Shiver Me Timbers" gag
- The Dance Of Capitalist Superiority
- "Can I try it on?" "Oh, absolutely not"
- "You *have* to plan for babies, or they just run roughshod over
your entire existence." "Yeah, y...you gotta know what to call 'em
before they hit college." "Ah. Rupert is an exceptionally strong
name." "Ha ha ha! Yeah, if we want our progeny to eat paste and
have their lunch money stolen"
So...
One-sentence summary: Quietly keeps the ball rolling.
AOQ rating: Good
[Season Six so far:
1) "Bargaining" - Decent
2) "After Life" - Good
3) "Flooded" - Decent
4) "Life Serial" - Good
5) "All The Way" - Good]
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> being young and dumb. She does actually appear to know people her own
dawn is like tegan one
or the girl who goes in the alley and gets killed by the monster
the anti-buffy
if theres any hope remember tegan one became tegan two
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
Elisi
I'm so pleased you liked it. I re-watched the other night and it was so
much more enjoyable than I remembered. Not much to add to what you said
(and I really liked your musing on vampire nature), but I feel I ought
to mention the scene with Buffy and Spike in the Magic Box. Buffy's
reaction to his 'rough and tumble' question is priceless! (That said,
he is utterly, utterly gorgeous and if I was her I'd have jumped him
there and then. So he's an evil, soulless killier, but damn he's hot!
*g*)
lili...@gmail.com
Not just mindrape in my mind, Tara most likely slept with Willow after
this spell, making it actual daterape as well. As if Willow just threw
a roofie in Tara's drink to make her have sex with her.
Lore
alphakitten
And then Willow goes with the easy
> out. That's unnatural at best, and verges on mind-rape at worst.
> The very quick-n-casual spell, and her satisfied grin at the end are
> both effective. Quite an unsettling way to end such a "minor"
> episode.
>
>
How does it "verge on" mind-rape? That's *exactly* what it is.
~Angel
Apteryx
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
> This time around the threat is a simple vampire attack... so much for
> them never coming out this night.
Young vampires today - no respect for tradition.
> This one is kind of a story in three parts. First, you have Xander
> finally going ahead and letting the others know about the engagement,
> set against the backdrop of a big Halloween day at the Magic Shop. Not
> much to say about the costume banter, except that you have to admire
> Xander's determination with the pirate talk even if you don't like
> him not taking a hint.
Yep, I guess Xander would be calling this episode no. 5 too :)
> And more on Dawn in a moment, but the third plotline is weaved in among
> the first two. Willow's friends tend to be worried about the amount
> of magic she uses, and Tara is the next one to object. Here it starts
> over something minor, decorations, which makes sense, since it's the
> casually throwing spells around that seems more gratuitous than using
> them in battle. The falling out between the two of them is
> successfully portrayed in all the ways that the one in "Tough Love"
> failed. The two get to have a real conversation about the issues, even
> with Willow trying to get defensive and shift the topic. And the
> audience gets a closer look into the way both characters' minds work.
> Willow's just not making the same distinction that seems so
> clear-cut to Tara between the various types of "helping." One
> comment from Mrs. Q. about the followup in the Bronze (I like the
> spell, and the infested roots, by the way) is that it plays like a
> conversation about drugs. I don't know if the parallels are all that
> clear, but those who like such things can look at it as another example
> of the show using real-world analogies for uniquely Buffyverse
> situations rather than the other way around. It's a little hard to
> watch, in a good way, the way they can't communicate and Tara finally
> storms off.
Obviously I'm on Tara's side on this issue. From my POV, Willow has
been "using too much magic" for a long time now. For me, it's because I
don't like to see dramatic protaganists having such and easy out that
the writers can pull out of their pocket at any time. From Tara's POV,
Willow is pretty far gone as a result of her magic use, to the point
where she can comtemplate shifting anyone who isn't a 15 yr old girl to
another dimension as a means of finding Dawn. But we're on the same
side. Less magic would be good.
>
> The final exchange between Dawn and Justin got me thinking. "I
> thought you really liked me." "I do. And you like me too." "I
> do." On the one level, we do see Dawn finally showing that she has a
> rudimentary amount of intelligence, being disappointed over losing a
> potential boyfriend but aware that she really ought to kill him anyway.
Yeah, but how much force is on that stake to make it go through his
ribs? Vampires today, ribs of jelly.
> last without another long talk. And then there's that deliciously
> creepy last scene, with Willow and Tara. They're at the point in a
> relationship at which it's time to uncomfortably accept that there
> are differences that won't go away, but that now isn't the best
> time to try to hammer them out. And then Willow goes with the easy
> out. That's unnatural at best, and verges on mind-rape at worst.
> The very quick-n-casual spell, and her satisfied grin at the end are
> both effective. Quite an unsettling way to end such a "minor"
> episode.
Although she's not actually endangering scores of lives as she was when
she planning to shift everyone in The Bronze to another dimension, this
somehow seems even worse, the mind control of her lover - which as
others have pointed out, is at least potentially actual rape.
> One-sentence summary: Quietly keeps the ball rolling.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
This is a difficult episode to rate, because it is so mixed. It has
some great humour, and some heavy ones, especially with Willow, but the
main story is pretty lame. At times in the past it has been one of my
favourite episodes in season 6, at other times I have rated it lower
than I presently do. But at the moment, I rate it just the other side
of the Good/Decent divide from you, as one of the best Decent episodes.
There's not quiet enough there there for me to rate it Good. It's my
84th favourite BtVS episode, 12th best in season 6.
Apteryx
Don Sample
<mair_fheal-6438B...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > The second part of the show concerns Dawn sneaking out and generally
> > being young and dumb. She does actually appear to know people her own
>
> dawn is like tegan one
> or the girl who goes in the alley and gets killed by the monster
> the anti-buffy
Uh...have you watched Dawn in a fight? You do not want that girl pissed
off at you. (She's a hair puller.)
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Elisi
> I'm so pleased you liked it. I re-watched the other night and it was so
> much more enjoyable than I remembered. Not much to add to what you said
> (and I really liked your musing on vampire nature), but I feel I ought
> to mention the scene with Buffy and Spike in the Magic Box. Buffy's
> reaction to his 'rough and tumble' question is priceless! (That said,
> he is utterly, utterly gorgeous and if I was her I'd have jumped him
> there and then. So he's an evil, soulless killier, but damn he's hot!
> *g*)
Oh one more point - it's intersting how the episode makes the analogy
of vamping with rape (going all the way...), and then in the end, it's
not Dawn or Janice who get violated!
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> In article
> <mair_fheal-6438B...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
> mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > The second part of the show concerns Dawn sneaking out and generally
> > > being young and dumb. She does actually appear to know people her own
> >
> > dawn is like tegan one
> > or the girl who goes in the alley and gets killed by the monster
> > the anti-buffy
>
> Uh...have you watched Dawn in a fight? You do not want that girl pissed
> off at you. (She's a hair puller.)
tegan one was a lethal screamer
a shriek of fear from her would disintegrate the spinal cord
of everyone within twenty metres
i was watching blood money and i think tegan twos dress
was later acquired by cordelia and given to anne by angel
Michael Ikeda
news:1154761235.0...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
>> review threads.
>>
>>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Six, Episode 5: "All The Way"
>> (or "Killed By The Hell(mouth): The New Class")
>> Writer: Steven S. DeKnight
>> Director: David Solomon
>>
>I feel I ought to mention the scene with Buffy and
> Spike in the Magic Box. Buffy's reaction to his 'rough and
> tumble' question is priceless! (That said, he is utterly,
> utterly gorgeous and if I was her I'd have jumped him there and
> then. So he's an evil, soulless killier, but damn he's hot! *g*)
>
So what you're saying is: "He's evil. But you should see him
naked."
:)
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Elisi
> So what you're saying is: "He's evil. But you should see him
> naked."
>
> :)
Oh yeah! :)
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 5: "All The Way"
> (or "Killed By The Hell(mouth): The New Class")
> Writer: Steven S. DeKnight
> Director: David Solomon
>
> Halloween tends to be eventful every other year in Sunnydale, it seems.
> This time around the threat is a simple vampire attack... so much for
> them never coming out this night.
I liked Giles's line, "History suggests that if something calamitous
should happen, it'll happen to one of us."
> The second part of the show concerns Dawn sneaking out and generally
> being young and dumb. She does actually appear to know people her own
> age, although I notice it's a different 'best friend' than in
> "The Body." This plot makes use of some basic old-fashioned
> misdirection, akin to what Dawnie's sister might've had to deal
> with in the early years of the show. It definitely drags early on,
> with all the focus on the old toymaker. But the moment in which he's
> abruptly killed, by the guys we probably kinda suspected of being
> vampires but were getting distracted away from by the guy's
> child-molester manner and his eerie "little mistake," helps put
> things together. Sometimes a crazy old guy is just a crazy old guy -
> you just can't be sure which are the bad ones. I feel a little sad
> for him.
Janice, of course, was played by Amber Tamblyn, who would go on to have
a close relationship with God. I spent a lot of time being distracted
by her jeans. This was right in the middle of that low-rise craze.
Janice was wearing the kind that were apparently designed by William
Theiss -- held up by willpower.
> Plenty of time goes into Dawn trying to score. The scenes together
> with Justin are decent. Mrs. Quality was very anxious, to say the
> least, for her to shut the hell up during her long neurotic drone after
> the first kiss.
Heh. I'm with her on this one. Fast-forward to the rescue.
>
> The fights at the end are very energetic, and do a lot for my opinion
> of the episode. Action Hero Ripper makes a rare appearance, and saving
> Dawn's friend is one time where it's good to see. Then he's
> surrounded by vampires wanting to do things the hard way, until Spike
> casually strolls in to make an appearance. There's a thoroughly dumb
> but still highly fun exchange of criticisms and stuff leading up to
> "uh, excuse me! Can we fight now?" Then once the episode's
> climax starts, Giles is even better, catching a stake and very
> violently doing some impaling. I actually said "awesome" at some
> point (I still use that word, and I'm not even that old). Spike's
> disdainful killing ("no, I'm a rebel. You're an idiot") is
> also a plus, as is the door-assisted beheading.
Yes, this was one of my favorite fight scenes from the post-Pruitt
stunt team. A good, old-fashioned multi-vamp brawl, complete with
improvised weapons.
ATW has never been one of my favorites, but it gets its job done
nicely. At this point in S6 I was very happy with the season. I'd
liked all the eps, and it seemed to be going somwhere, although where
wasn't quite clear yet.
-- Mike Zeares
Stephen Tempest
>Looks like Dawn's a thief;
>parents these days...
But does this mean that Buffy must also be a thief, since the monks
made Dawn out of her ? <g>
>Dawn-haters will likely find plenty of ammunition in
>this episode - she's kinda stupid. Stupid going into the creepy
>old guy's house, and stupid going off alone with a strange boy.
At the toymaker's house she had her friends to back her up: and she
also showed a lot of courage and determination, and a level of
pragmatism. The others were just talking about it: Dawn went ahead
and did it.
As for going off alone with a strange boy: it's nothing that Willow
didn't do in 'Welcome to the Hellmouth'...
>One
>comment from Mrs. Q. about the followup in the Bronze (I like the
>spell, and the infested roots, by the way) is that it plays like a
>conversation about drugs. I don't know if the parallels are all that
>clear, but those who like such things can look at it as another example
>of the show using real-world analogies for uniquely Buffyverse
>situations rather than the other way around.
Not sure what it says about Tara that the idea of "infested roots"
turns her on...
As for the drugs thing: interesting analogy, but probably better to
leave any discussion until after you've seen a few more episodes. (It
should be obvious that the Willow-and-magic storyline is an ongoing
one, so I don't think that's a spoiler).
Crefbanyyl, V'z vzcerffrq gung Zef NbD fcbggrq vg guvf rneyl...
vzcylvat gung vg qvqa'g pbzr bhg bs gur oyhr va fznfurq naq jerpxrq
yvxr znal crbcyr nyyrtr.
> On another level, this ties in to the animal aspect of the Buffyverse
>vampire. There's no reason not to believe him that he really does
>like Dawn. He wants to eat and turn her because that's what he does,
>being a vampire and all, and wants to share it.
But, but, but... vampires are sickening, evil, sickeningly evil and
evilly sickening serial killers! He can't feel affection for Dawn!!
>[Season Six so far:
>1) "Bargaining" - Decent
>2) "After Life" - Good
>3) "Flooded" - Decent
>4) "Life Serial" - Good
>5) "All The Way" - Good]
Just curious - have you been at all spoiled as to what happens in the
next episode ('Once More, With Feeling')?
Stephen
Ken from Chicago
"alphakitten" <alphak...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:44D448E...@netscape.net...
I knew this would happen--again.
-- Ken from Chicago
Horace LaBadie
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> Looks like Dawn's a thief;
> parents these days...
Not the first time that Dawn has been shown stealing.
HWL
Horace LaBadie
Stephen Tempest <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> But does this mean that Buffy must also be a thief, since the monks
> made Dawn out of her ? <g>
"You're not from Bullock's, are you? 'Cause I-I meant to pay for that
lipstick."
HWL
Ken from Chicago
"Apteryx" <Apte...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1154765421.7...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>> threads.
>>
>> Halloween tends to be eventful every other year in Sunnydale, it seems.
>> This time around the threat is a simple vampire attack... so much for
>> them never coming out this night.
>
> Young vampires today - no respect for tradition.
Back in the day you had to travel 20 miles, uphill, in the snow, to school,
to snack on some teachers and toddlers in detention. That was discipline.
The young vamps don't have that no mo.
This issue came up in one of the Star Wars: New Jedi Order series of novels
where Mrs. Skywalker tell's her nephew about using (abusing) the Force
needlessly to do stuff they could do physically.
>> The final exchange between Dawn and Justin got me thinking. "I
>> thought you really liked me." "I do. And you like me too." "I
>> do." On the one level, we do see Dawn finally showing that she has a
>> rudimentary amount of intelligence, being disappointed over losing a
>> potential boyfriend but aware that she really ought to kill him anyway.
>
> Yeah, but how much force is on that stake to make it go through his
> ribs? Vampires today, ribs of jelly.
Aim is everything.
>> last without another long talk. And then there's that deliciously
>> creepy last scene, with Willow and Tara. They're at the point in a
>> relationship at which it's time to uncomfortably accept that there
>> are differences that won't go away, but that now isn't the best
>> time to try to hammer them out. And then Willow goes with the easy
>> out. That's unnatural at best, and verges on mind-rape at worst.
>> The very quick-n-casual spell, and her satisfied grin at the end are
>> both effective. Quite an unsettling way to end such a "minor"
>> episode.
>
> Although she's not actually endangering scores of lives as she was when
> she planning to shift everyone in The Bronze to another dimension, this
> somehow seems even worse, the mind control of her lover - which as
> others have pointed out, is at least potentially actual rape.
Uh oh, here it comes--again. Can we all at least agree on "violation"?
>> One-sentence summary: Quietly keeps the ball rolling.
>>
>> AOQ rating: Good
>
> This is a difficult episode to rate, because it is so mixed. It has
> some great humour, and some heavy ones, especially with Willow, but the
> main story is pretty lame. At times in the past it has been one of my
> favourite episodes in season 6, at other times I have rated it lower
> than I presently do. But at the moment, I rate it just the other side
> of the Good/Decent divide from you, as one of the best Decent episodes.
> There's not quiet enough there there for me to rate it Good. It's my
> 84th favourite BtVS episode, 12th best in season 6.
>
> Apteryx
I was kinda down on it for being kinda slow, in fact being slow since the
action-packed season debut. For the season in general--but that changes with
the next episode, the highlight of the season, and arguably one of the
better highlights for the series.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"Mike Zeares" <mze...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1154777544.2...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>> threads.
>>
>>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Six, Episode 5: "All The Way"
>> (or "Killed By The Hell(mouth): The New Class")
>> Writer: Steven S. DeKnight
>> Director: David Solomon
>>
>> Halloween tends to be eventful every other year in Sunnydale, it seems.
>> This time around the threat is a simple vampire attack... so much for
>> them never coming out this night.
>
> I liked Giles's line, "History suggests that if something calamitous
> should happen, it'll happen to one of us."
"No boom today ... boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow"--Claudia
Christian, "Susan Ivanova", BABYLON 5.
>> The second part of the show concerns Dawn sneaking out and generally
>> being young and dumb. She does actually appear to know people her own
>> age, although I notice it's a different 'best friend' than in
>> "The Body." This plot makes use of some basic old-fashioned
>> misdirection, akin to what Dawnie's sister might've had to deal
>> with in the early years of the show. It definitely drags early on,
>> with all the focus on the old toymaker. But the moment in which he's
>> abruptly killed, by the guys we probably kinda suspected of being
>> vampires but were getting distracted away from by the guy's
>> child-molester manner and his eerie "little mistake," helps put
>> things together. Sometimes a crazy old guy is just a crazy old guy -
>> you just can't be sure which are the bad ones. I feel a little sad
>> for him.
>
> Janice, of course, was played by Amber Tamblyn, who would go on to have
> a close relationship with God. I spent a lot of time being distracted
> by her jeans. This was right in the middle of that low-rise craze.
> Janice was wearing the kind that were apparently designed by William
> Theiss -- held up by willpower.
Watch it pal, she's just a kid. Besides you so do not want to go picking on
"God's" helpmeet.
>> Plenty of time goes into Dawn trying to score. The scenes together
>> with Justin are decent. Mrs. Quality was very anxious, to say the
>> least, for her to shut the hell up during her long neurotic drone after
>> the first kiss.
>
> Heh. I'm with her on this one. Fast-forward to the rescue.
Teen angst, yawn, teen schmangst.
>> The fights at the end are very energetic, and do a lot for my opinion
>> of the episode. Action Hero Ripper makes a rare appearance, and saving
>> Dawn's friend is one time where it's good to see. Then he's
>> surrounded by vampires wanting to do things the hard way, until Spike
>> casually strolls in to make an appearance. There's a thoroughly dumb
>> but still highly fun exchange of criticisms and stuff leading up to
>> "uh, excuse me! Can we fight now?" Then once the episode's
>> climax starts, Giles is even better, catching a stake and very
>> violently doing some impaling. I actually said "awesome" at some
>> point (I still use that word, and I'm not even that old). Spike's
>> disdainful killing ("no, I'm a rebel. You're an idiot") is
>> also a plus, as is the door-assisted beheading.
>
> Yes, this was one of my favorite fight scenes from the post-Pruitt
> stunt team. A good, old-fashioned multi-vamp brawl, complete with
> improvised weapons.
I thought the fight scene seemed odd. There should have been more cuts, more
edits, too many continuous shots.
> ATW has never been one of my favorites, but it gets its job done
> nicely. At this point in S6 I was very happy with the season. I'd
> liked all the eps, and it seemed to be going somwhere, although where
> wasn't quite clear yet.
>
> -- Mike Zeares
I think I this point I was waiting for the Big Bad to show up so The Gang
could finally start to click--cuz usually that's where the gang was at their
best and really jelled: Beating up beasties.
This whole talking and feeling and emoting, ugh, too Lifetimey.
-- Ken from Chicago
Elisi
> Young vampires today - no respect for tradition.
Go read this. No spoilers:
Mike Zeares
> > a close relationship with God. I spent a lot of time being distracted
> > by her jeans. This was right in the middle of that low-rise craze.
> > Janice was wearing the kind that were apparently designed by William
> > Theiss -- held up by willpower.
>
> Watch it pal, she's just a kid. Besides you so do not want to go picking on
> "God's" helpmeet.
I didn't mean distracted in an "ooh, baby" way (Amber didn't actually
do anything for me until she was on JoA). I meant distracted in a
horrified way. Those jeans were just a bad idea. They were just as
horrifying the few times I saw them in real life.
-- Mike Zeares
Stephen Tempest
vague disclaimer
> Crefbanyyl, V'z vzcerffrq gung Zef NbD fcbggrq vg guvf rneyl...
> vzcylvat gung vg qvqa'g pbzr bhg bs gur oyhr va fznfurq naq jerpxrq
> yvxr znal crbcyr nyyrtr.
V arire gubhtug vg qvq. Pna'g fcrnxvat sbe Zef NbD, ohg V fhfcrpg vg jnf
zl ryringrq Tnzzn TG fcrnxvat.
--
Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
BTR1701
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> The fights at the end are very energetic, and do a lot for my opinion
> of the episode. Action Hero Ripper makes a rare appearance, and saving
> Dawn's friend is one time where it's good to see. Then he's
> surrounded by vampires wanting to do things the hard way, until Spike
> casually strolls in to make an appearance. There's a thoroughly dumb
> but still highly fun exchange of criticisms and stuff leading up to
> "uh, excuse me! Can we fight now?" Then once the episode's
> climax starts, Giles is even better, catching a stake and very
> violently doing some impaling.
This is also the episode where we find out that you don't even have to
stake vampires in the heart in order to kill them. Giles's stake hits
the vampire dead center in the stomach, nowhere near the heart, and
dusts him just as nicely as a heart-shot would.
> One comment from Mrs. Q. about the followup in the Bronze (I like the
> spell, and the infested roots, by the way) is that it plays like a
> conversation about drugs.
Your woman is prescient. I think you should keep her.
BTR1701
ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> writes:
> As for going off alone with a strange boy: it's nothing that Willow
> didn't do in 'Welcome to the Hellmouth'...
Well, yes, but Willow didn't know about vampires and the rest. Dawn does.
BTR1701
"Apteryx" <Apte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Although she's not actually endangering scores of lives as she was when
> she planning to shift everyone in The Bronze to another dimension, this
> somehow seems even worse, the mind control of her lover - which as
> others have pointed out, is at least potentially actual rape.
Well, it's not actual rape unless she uses the mind-control to get Tara
to have sex with her. Using it to make her forget an argument is an
invasion of personal autonomy to be sure but it doesn't meet the
elements of rape.
Michael Ikeda
news:GNydnR5s0flvEEnZ...@comcast.com:
>
> "Mike Zeares" <mze...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1154777544.2...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
>>> review threads.
>>>
>>>
>>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>>> Season Six, Episode 5: "All The Way"
>>> (or "Killed By The Hell(mouth): The New Class")
>>> Writer: Steven S. DeKnight
>>> Director: David Solomon
>>>
>
> I thought the fight scene seemed odd. There should have been
> more cuts, more edits, too many continuous shots.
>
One interesting note is how matter-of-fact Buffy seemed in the fight
scene.
peachy ashie passion
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>>threads.
>
>
> I'm so pleased you liked it. I re-watched the other night and it was so
> much more enjoyable than I remembered. Not much to add to what you said
> (and I really liked your musing on vampire nature), but I feel I ought
> to mention the scene with Buffy and Spike in the Magic Box. Buffy's
> reaction to his 'rough and tumble' question is priceless! (That said,
> he is utterly, utterly gorgeous and if I was her I'd have jumped him
> there and then. So he's an evil, soulless killier, but damn he's hot!
> *g*)
>
OMG.
You can't know how much it pains me to say this, but I begin to see
BTR's point.
It's not all all about Spike. You resposted the entire AOQ review
without a hint of snippage all because he didn't find the Spike scene
you liked best ?
I looooooooooove Spike and you totally understate the level of his
hotness, but damn!
peachy ashie passion
But the person who just called it actual rape pointed out that they
climbed in bed together - something that very likely wouldn't have
happened without the spell.
BTR1701
<exquisi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Climbing in bed isn't sex. You can't be charged with rape because you
drug someone into unwittingly snuggling with you.
BTR1701
<exquisi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Yep, this is where the show focuses in like laser on catering to the
swooning fan-girls.
peachy ashie passion
The SHOW didn't.
The SHOW had all sorts of other stuff going on!
peachy ashie passion
No, but we can't assume they didn't have sex just because we didn't
see sex. I mean, we've never seen sex - are we supposed to believe
they've had none?
It's potentially actual rape because there is the potential that they
did have sex.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
> Season Six, Episode 5: "All The Way"
> (or "Killed By The Hell(mouth): The New Class")
> Writer: Steven S. DeKnight
> Director: David Solomon
> This one is kind of a story in three parts. First, you have Xander
> finally going ahead and letting the others know about the engagement,
> set against the backdrop of a big Halloween day at the Magic Shop. Not
> much to say about the costume banter, except that you have to admire
> Xander's determination with the pirate talk even if you don't like
> him not taking a hint. And Buffy having last episode's experience in
> retail foremost on her mind works nicely. Looks like Dawn's a thief;
> parents these days...
Nice amulet that she snagged. Did she also keep some of the money Anya
tossed up in the air?
I like everyone's different reactions to Xander and Anya's announcement,
from Dawn's honest pleasure to Willow's disturbed look. (She was probably
thinking "Oh, gods, now we really are stuck with Anya forever.")
(Nynf, guvf fprar jnf creuncf gur uvtu cbvag bs Naln naq Knaqre'f jubyr
eryngvbafuvc.)
> The
> discussion outside the house paints Buffy as his relationship counselor
> again, where the reverse has been more common lately. I know the crew
> don't generally give good advice, but here I'd tend to side with
> her not to read too much into his engagement misgivings and weird
> feelings. It makes perfect sense to me as a natural stage to go
> through; he's has problems with commitments before, and this is a big
> one. And Anya can be a lot to handle.
In the first half of this episode there's a certain focus on Anya acting
greedy ("This is just the first premarital celebration. There'll be lots
more. With gifts.") and oblivious to others' feelings ("Yeah, if we want
our progeny to eat paste and have their lunch money stolen"), just to
emphasize how much to handle she can be. Xander starts looking more and
more nervous. It also looks like he hasn't given much thought to
practical matters like where they'll live, and is positively frightened by
the idea of buying a house and having children. But he isn't *all*
nervousness and misgivings. Much of the time he looks perfectly happy,
like when Anya talks about how lucky she is, having everything work out
exactly as she dreamed. Since Anya and Xander almost disappear from the
later part of the episode, there's no resolution to Xander's
happiness-vs-nervousness yet.
> The second part of the show concerns Dawn sneaking out and generally
> being young and dumb. She does actually appear to know people her own
> age,
And the actors actually look like they're teenagers, not 22-year-olds!
> This plot makes use of some basic old-fashioned
> misdirection, akin to what Dawnie's sister might've had to deal
> with in the early years of the show.
I like the juxtaposition of the Scoobie's current concerns and Dawn's
version of something they would dealt with in season 1. Dawn is now less
than a year from being as old as Buffy was at the start of the show.
> Plenty of time goes into Dawn trying to score. The scenes together
> with Justin are decent. Mrs. Quality was very anxious, to say the
> least, for her to shut the hell up during her long neurotic drone after
> the first kiss.
Awwww, I thought it was cute. Mind you, I wouldn't want to see a whole
episode like that.
> And more on Dawn in a moment, but the third plotline is weaved in among
> the first two. Willow's friends tend to be worried about the amount
> of magic she uses, and Tara is the next one to object.
Worrying about the amount of magic Willow's using covers several things:
the sheer amount, the way she wants to use it for almost any routine task
that doesn't really require magic, and most of all her heedlessness about
risks to herself and others. Unfortunately Tara is no more successful in
getting her points across than Giles was. I wonder what kind of magical
research Willow is doing these days?
> The final exchange between Dawn and Justin got me thinking. "I
> thought you really liked me." "I do. And you like me too." "I
> do." On the one level, we do see Dawn finally showing that she has a
> rudimentary amount of intelligence, being disappointed over losing a
> potential boyfriend but aware that she really ought to kill him anyway.
> On another level, this ties in to the animal aspect of the Buffyverse
> vampire. There's no reason not to believe him that he really does
> like Dawn.
On first viewing I saw Justin and Zack as the kind of guys who will lie
and minipulate to get what they want (not unlike Parker), and resort to
rape if lying isn't enough, so I didn't put too much stock in Justin's
claims to "really like" Dawn. The vampires' conversation about
"lunchables or all the way?" sounded to me like two teen jocks planning
the night's date rape. I figured his final professions of true like were
just to taunt his victim. But upon reflection, maybe Justin really does
like Dawn, if only in the way Darla liked Liam and Drusilla liked William.
Wanting to turn Dawn implies that he'd enjoy her as a companion, or at
least sees her as good raw material for a vampire companion. So now I'll
take Justin at his word that he honestly "likes" Dawn, in a vampy sort of
way. (But upon further reflection, I bet a lot of date-rapists start off
thinking they honestly like their victims.)
> He wants to eat and turn her because that's what he does,
> being a vampire and all, and wants to share it.
Which just goes to show that while vampires have their own version of
love, it's not very human-compatible.
Dawn and Buffy now have even more in common, with early, formative love
experiences with vampires. I like the way Dawn holds onto Justin's letter
jacket in the last scene. How must she feel, that the first guy to really
like her turned out to be a vamp? (I'm assuming she never got anywhere
with Kevin, except of course in fanfic....)
> time to try to hammer them out. And then Willow goes with the easy
> out. That's unnatural at best, and verges on mind-rape at worst.
> The very quick-n-casual spell, and her satisfied grin at the end are
> both effective. Quite an unsettling way to end such a "minor"
> episode.
Very unsettling. Maybe that sweater in After Life really was a sign that
Willow's going bad!
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s); Special
> Engagement Edition:
-Buffy's "We have to do something." The way she says it, there's a
second's worth of ambiguity -- does she mean she means they have to do
something to celebrate the wedding, or stop it?
-"Is that why you're always cleaning your glasses, so you don't have to
watch what we're doing?" "Tell no one."
-"Mist ... cemetary ... Halloween. This should end well."
> AOQ rating: Good
I'd give it a low Good. It's not one of the major classics, but I
really like it. And it's nice to have vampires as the MOTW again, like a
visit from an old friend.
--Chris,
who was irritated to learn that this afternoon he might lose Internet
access for the rest of the weekend. Why now?!
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
Steve Schaffner
> In article <1154758256....@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The fights at the end are very energetic, and do a lot for my opinion
> > of the episode. Action Hero Ripper makes a rare appearance, and saving
> > Dawn's friend is one time where it's good to see. Then he's
> > surrounded by vampires wanting to do things the hard way, until Spike
> > casually strolls in to make an appearance. There's a thoroughly dumb
> > but still highly fun exchange of criticisms and stuff leading up to
> > "uh, excuse me! Can we fight now?" Then once the episode's
> > climax starts, Giles is even better, catching a stake and very
> > violently doing some impaling.
>
> This is also the episode where we find out that you don't even have to
> stake vampires in the heart in order to kill them. Giles's stake hits
> the vampire dead center in the stomach, nowhere near the heart, and
> dusts him just as nicely as a heart-shot would.
We've known that since "The Harvest", when Xander stakes Jesse
somewhere near his collar bone. (And talk about flimsy chest walls --
just brushing against a stake seems to kill some vampires.)
--
Steve Schaffner s...@broad.mit.edu
Immediate assurance is an excellent sign of probable lack of
insight into the topic. Josiah Royce
Steve Schaffner
> Unlike Buffy, she doesn't even have a sacred duty to juggle
I have nothing to add to your fine review; I just thought I'd
point out that juggling is never a sacred duty. Some even think
it's a demonic activity.
Mike Zeares
Michael Ikeda wrote:
> "Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote in
> news:GNydnR5s0flvEEnZ...@comcast.com:
> >
> > more cuts, more edits, too many continuous shots.
> >
>
> One interesting note is how matter-of-fact Buffy seemed in the fight
> scene.
That's a good point. She didn't seem really into it. The old Buffy
would have been impressed with herself for that car door beheading, and
would have had a few quips. It's as if she's just going through the
motions of being the Slayer, instead of really connecting to it. I
guess being pulled out of Heaven might do that to you. She still
fights effectively, though. Well, Giles always did want her to just
"plunge and move on."
-- Mike Zeares
William George Ferguson
>
>Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>> threads.
>>
>>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Six, Episode 5: "All The Way"
>> (or "Killed By The Hell(mouth): The New Class")
>> Writer: Steven S. DeKnight
>> Director: David Solomon
>Janice, of course, was played by Amber Tamblyn, who would go on to have
>a close relationship with God. I spent a lot of time being distracted
>by her jeans. This was right in the middle of that low-rise craze.
>Janice was wearing the kind that were apparently designed by William
>Theiss -- held up by willpower.
And in one of those full circle kind of things, Tamblyn presently playing
SMG's litle sister in Grudge 2.
Amber Tamblyn is a lovely woman, but she really doesn't have the body type
to wear low-riders.
Oh and a TIRSBILA
Buffy: Dawn! Are you... wer you parking? With a Vamp?
Dawn: I didn't know he was dead!
Buffy: How could you not know?
Dawn: I just met him!
Buffy: Oh! So you were parking in the woods with a boy you just met?
--
HERBERT
1996 - 1997
Beloved Mascot
Delightful Meal
He fed the Pack
A little
George W Harris
<s...@phosphorus.broad.mit.edu> wrote:
:"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> writes:
:
:> Unlike Buffy, she doesn't even have a sacred duty to juggle
:
:I have nothing to add to your fine review; I just thought I'd
:point out that juggling is never a sacred duty. Some even think
:it's a demonic activity.
Although on some moons, the major form of
recreation is juggling geese.
--
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV!
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
Rincewind
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> writes:
>
>> Unlike Buffy, she doesn't even have a sacred duty to juggle
>
> I have nothing to add to your fine review; I just thought I'd
> point out that juggling is never a sacred duty. Some even think
> it's a demonic activity.
Some people juggle geese...
Rincewind.
--
Lines you'll never hear on Buffy
DAWN: What the hell, Buffy? We're practically on food stamps and you've got
$10,000 worth of leather pants in your friggin' closet!
Rincewind
>
> Although on some moons, the major form of
> recreation is juggling geese.
You beat me by one minute...
Rincewind.
--
What I have learned from Buffy:
If you're in a relationship with a witch, be watchful of any Lethe's Bramble
lying about the house.
Elisi
I was in a hurry and didn't have much to add. Pointing out Buffy's wide
eyed and and speechless response to Spike's suggestion was a point I
thought might warrant mentioning. And considering the rampant
Willow/Buffy/Faith etc love around these parts (heck, someone comments
on Janice's *very* low jeans further down), I hoped someone wouldn't
jump on me for stating a preference. *shrug*
I actually came back to mention another favourite moment that I had
forgotten - the Dance of Capitalist Superiority which is what spurs
Xander into his announcement. And the way Anya happily throws the money
at Dawn so she can kiss Xander, showing clearly where her priorities
lie. It's a lovely moment.
Also I don't think I have ever commented on Spike's hotness so far (I
might be wrong, of course, but I can't remember doing it deliberately
until now), and was not planning on making a habit of it at all. It was
just a scene that struck me. For me the appeal of Spike isn't his looks
(although he's very pretty - but then everyone on the show is
attractive) but his character. That's what I usually concentrate on.
I'll make sure to fangirl Giles next time.
vague disclaimer
BTR1701 <BTR...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> > The fights at the end are very energetic, and do a lot for my opinion
> > of the episode. Action Hero Ripper makes a rare appearance, and saving
> > Dawn's friend is one time where it's good to see. Then he's
> > surrounded by vampires wanting to do things the hard way, until Spike
> > casually strolls in to make an appearance. There's a thoroughly dumb
> > but still highly fun exchange of criticisms and stuff leading up to
> > "uh, excuse me! Can we fight now?" Then once the episode's
> > climax starts, Giles is even better, catching a stake and very
> > violently doing some impaling.
>
> This is also the episode where we find out that you don't even have to
> stake vampires in the heart in order to kill them. Giles's stake hits
> the vampire dead center in the stomach, nowhere near the heart, and
> dusts him just as nicely as a heart-shot would.
And tis is new in what way? The vast majority of stakings seem to
indicate the heart is somewhere near the left shoulder.
vague disclaimer
"Mike Zeares" <mze...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Abj gung jnf whfg anhtugl :)
Elisi
Considering that the swooning fan-girls tend to hate Marti Noxon with
the fiery passion of a thousands suns, that's hardly an accurate
statement.
Personally I have nothing against Marti, and I don't swoon.
Elisi
But it was Halloween! The only safe night of the year.
Paul Hyett
>>
>> How does it "verge on" mind-rape? That's *exactly* what it is.
>> ~Angel
>
>I knew this would happen--again.
>
>-- Ken from Chicago
I'm especially looking forward to AoQ's comments on several forthcoming
episodes.
--
Paul 'Charts Fan' Hyett
One Bit Shy
news:1154758256....@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 5: "All The Way"
> Halloween tends to be eventful every other year in Sunnydale, it seems.
> This time around the threat is a simple vampire attack... so much for
> them never coming out this night.
Well, it offended Spike that they did. (I wonder if that interrupted his
watching of The Great Pumpkin.)
> This one is kind of a story in three parts.
Gee, and I thought it was a jumble sort of fit around Dawn's story.
That's not entirely a criticism. The episode hangs together surprisingly
well I think considering all the bits they wanted to cram into it. But,
still, it's not so much about anything in particular as it is about putting
a bunch of pieces into place.
> First, you have Xander
> finally going ahead and letting the others know about the engagement,
Maybe I'm just a sucker for these moments, but something about Xander
watching Anya do her dance and then telling Buffy that he was going to marry
that girl struck me as really romantic. Succeeded in getting across his
feeling of devotion to her.
> set against the backdrop of a big Halloween day at the Magic Shop. Not
> much to say about the costume banter, except that you have to admire
> Xander's determination with the pirate talk even if you don't like
> him not taking a hint.
I thought his pirate talk was wonderful. Which makes this a good moment to
remind people that Talk Like A Pirate Day isn't too far off - September 19.
http://www.talklikeapirate.com/piratehome.html Arrr!
And Anya's Angel getup on rollerscates was mighty cute too.
> And Buffy having last episode's experience in
> retail foremost on her mind works nicely.
Evidently she's not too mad at Spike about the kitten poker.
One little thing I thought was interesting about the Spike scene is when
Buffy looked at Spike dubiously when he said he was going to pay for the
burba weed.
Spike: I mean, no. I was gonna nick it, 'cause that's what I do. (sighs) I
go where I please and I take what I want.
One look from Buffy and it's like mama making the little boy tell the truth.
The weird thing is that the truth is hardly something good, but the saying
of it is. Buffy doesn't seem to be the slightest bit put off that he'd be
stealing something from the Magic Box - just that he would pretend not to
be. Once Spike admits to it, everything's OK. I don't know what exactly
that means, but it seems to point at Buffy's expectations for Spike being
somewhat unique.
> Looks like Dawn's a thief;
> parents these days...
The stealing started late last season.
> It makes perfect sense to me as a natural stage to go
> through; he's has problems with commitments before, and this is a big
> one. And Anya can be a lot to handle.
Anya: So I was thinking maybe a June wedding. But then I remembered that
they always had the highest percentage of calls for vengeance. So now I'm
leaning towards as soon as damn possible. I mean, mortal life being so
short, we gotta get in as much marital bliss as we can before we wither and
die. I mean, there's just so much to consider, though, I mean, planning the
wedding, and, and new cars, house and babies. You *have* to plan for babies,
or they just run roughshod over your entire existence.
Man, if that's what I heard from my fiance at the engagement party, I'd be
sweating too.
> Plenty of time goes into Dawn trying to score.
And that poor vampire thought he was the one trying to score. LOL! But
you're right. Dawn was out for some action. Maybe not quite what she got,
but she was on her own hunt.
> The scenes together
> with Justin are decent. Mrs. Quality was very anxious, to say the
> least, for her to shut the hell up during her long neurotic drone after
> the first kiss. I guess I didn't mind overly much -
> Trachtenberg's voice doesn't grate for me as intensively as I guess
> it does for some.
Her voice didn't bother me. I just thought the scene dragged on. The
sentiment in it is fine, but the amount of thumb twiddling I got to practice
made it the weakest scene of the episode for me.
> Dawn-haters will likely find plenty of ammunition in
> this episode - she's kinda stupid. Stupid going into the creepy
> old guy's house, and stupid going off alone with a strange boy. I
> just see it as something similar to the attempts at rebellious moments
> that Buffy's had in the past - why can't she do "normal"
> things and act like a high-school kid is supposed to (although I
> don't know if anyone still "parks" nowadays)? Unlike Buffy, she
> doesn't even have a sacred duty to juggle, she just comes from a
> Slayer family.
Not being a Dawn hater, I couldn't say for certain. But I don't think this
episode is the source for it. And, yes, I think she's just acting like a 15
year old.
> And more on Dawn in a moment, but the third plotline is weaved in among
> the first two. Willow's friends tend to be worried about the amount
> of magic she uses, and Tara is the next one to object. Here it starts
> over something minor, decorations, which makes sense, since it's the
> casually throwing spells around that seems more gratuitous than using
> them in battle. The falling out between the two of them is
> successfully portrayed in all the ways that the one in "Tough Love"
> failed. The two get to have a real conversation about the issues, even
> with Willow trying to get defensive and shift the topic. And the
> audience gets a closer look into the way both characters' minds work.
> Willow's just not making the same distinction that seems so
> clear-cut to Tara between the various types of "helping."
Honestly, I don't think Tara is being very clear - maybe even a little
confused herself about what exactly it is that's bothering her. (My
speculation.) What struck me was how extravagent a spell Willow was willing
to use in the Bronze just to find Dawn. I totally understand Tara's shock
at that.
> One
> comment from Mrs. Q. about the followup in the Bronze (I like the
> spell, and the infested roots, by the way) is that it plays like a
> conversation about drugs. I don't know if the parallels are all that
> clear, but those who like such things can look at it as another example
> of the show using real-world analogies for uniquely Buffyverse
> situations rather than the other way around. It's a little hard to
> watch, in a good way, the way they can't communicate and Tara finally
> storms off.
I don't care to go into the drug analogy right now - and am a little
surprised that Mrs. Q picked up on that. I did want to give a hearty
approval to the observation of using real-world analogies for Buffyverse
situations - a kind of reversal in direction for the metaphors. The
metaphors traditional to the series continue (and will to the end), but
increasingly the trend is to point inwards to the Buffyverse rather than
outwards, or to be contained entirely within the Buffyverse, or in a few
cases dropped entirely. I hope that's not spoilery. It's meant only to aid
understanding how some things work.
> The fights at the end are very energetic, and do a lot for my opinion
> of the episode. Action Hero Ripper makes a rare appearance, and saving
> Dawn's friend is one time where it's good to see.
The flying kick he gives there is way cool.
> The final exchange between Dawn and Justin got me thinking. "I
> thought you really liked me." "I do. And you like me too." "I
> do." On the one level, we do see Dawn finally showing that she has a
> rudimentary amount of intelligence, being disappointed over losing a
> potential boyfriend but aware that she really ought to kill him anyway.
> On another level, this ties in to the animal aspect of the Buffyverse
> vampire. There's no reason not to believe him that he really does
> like Dawn. He wants to eat and turn her because that's what he does,
> being a vampire and all, and wants to share it. In this case it seems
> less about conscious evil and more about nature, like breathing. That
> may also be part of why Spike was so profoundly affected by being
> forced to survive without being able to act on his instinctive physical
> needs. Just thinking out loud here, not sure what my point is.
Oh, you're in for it now. <g>
I think that's a good observation in a place I've never thought to look.
The thing that stands out to me is how Justin really wants to kiss Dawn -
not just bite her. And is taken by it being Dawn's first kiss. Quite the
contrast to Darla back in the opening scene of the series.
> Buffy seems to be moving into the position where she leans on Giles
> more and more to do the parental stuff, and act like he's the one
> who's Dawn's legal guardian. This status quo seems unlikely to
> last without another long talk.
Giles did *not* want to be dumped with the responsibility for talking to
Dawn. The look on his face... On the other hand, he sure got Dawn acting a
lot more contrite than I could imagine her being with Buffy.
> And then there's that deliciously
> creepy last scene, with Willow and Tara. They're at the point in a
> relationship at which it's time to uncomfortably accept that there
> are differences that won't go away, but that now isn't the best
> time to try to hammer them out. And then Willow goes with the easy
> out. That's unnatural at best, and verges on mind-rape at worst.
> The very quick-n-casual spell, and her satisfied grin at the end are
> both effective. Quite an unsettling way to end such a "minor"
> episode.
<sigh> I'm not fond of the mind-rape term, but I suppose it's inevitable.
Whatever one calls it, Willow sure seems to have crossed a line there. And
such a small quiet spell. Easy. I'm not sure who I feel worse for. Tara
for what was done to her. Or Willow for the path she's stepped onto. Such
an easy step.
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s); Special
> Engagement Edition:
> - The extended "Shiver Me Timbers" gag
> - The Dance Of Capitalist Superiority
> - "Can I try it on?" "Oh, absolutely not"
> - "You *have* to plan for babies, or they just run roughshod over
> your entire existence." "Yeah, y...you gotta know what to call 'em
> before they hit college." "Ah. Rupert is an exceptionally strong
> name." "Ha ha ha! Yeah, if we want our progeny to eat paste and
> have their lunch money stolen"
"Do they know they're brother and sister?" (Referring to the couple dressed
as Princess Leia and Luke Skywalker)
"Were you parking?! With a vamp?"
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Quietly keeps the ball rolling.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
You like this episode a bit more than me. Lots of good and important stuff
happen in the episode, but it still comes across as a jumble of things to me
that doesn't add up to an especially engaging viewing experience. So I only
rate it Decent.
OBS
peachy ashie passion
>
> I'll make sure to fangirl Giles next time.
>
Thank you. I'll join you on that one too.
BTR1701
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> BTR1701 wrote:
> > In article <vo2Bg.8847$gU4.5506@trnddc07>, peachy ashie passion
> > <exquisi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > You can't know how much it pains me to say this, but I begin to
> > > see BTR's point.
> > >
> > > It's not all all about Spike. You resposted the entire AOQ
> > > review without a hint of snippage all because he didn't
> > > find the Spike scene you liked best?
> > >
> > > I looooooooooove Spike and you totally understate the level of his
> > > hotness, but damn!
> >
> > Yep, this is where the show focuses in like a laser on catering to the
> > swooning fan-girls.
>
> Considering that the swooning fan-girls tend to hate Marti Noxon with
> the fiery passion of a thousands suns, that's hardly an accurate
> statement.
>
> Personally I have nothing against Marti, and I don't swoon.
"That said, he is utterly, utterly gorgeous and if I was her I'd have
BTR1701
<exquisi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Can't assume they did, either. By that logic, we can't assume they
didn't do a little auto-mechanics in bed, just because we didn't see any
engine parts or wrenches...
> It's potentially actual rape because there is the potential that they
> did have sex.
There's the potential that they dressed up like clowns and made balloon
animals, too. How are we to know for sure?
Besides, all non-statutory rape statutes have an intent element.
Whatever Willow intended with that spell, she didn't do it to get laid.
Without the men rea, there is no rape.
BTR1701
vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
Well, you answered your own question: it's different in that the stomach
is nowhere near the left shoulder.
Elisi
That is called humourous exaggeration. *I* never complained when half
the posters on this NG drooled over Charisma Charpenter's assets. I
also remember that Mrs Quality said that _Angel_ was almost too hot to
bear in 'Becoming II'.
So excuse me for finding Spike attractive. It's obviously not allowed
around here - so much for equal rights.
Don Sample
Stephen Tempest <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> writes:
>
> >Looks like Dawn's a thief;
> >parents these days...
>
> But does this mean that Buffy must also be a thief, since the monks
> made Dawn out of her ? <g>
>
> >Dawn-haters will likely find plenty of ammunition in
> >this episode - she's kinda stupid. Stupid going into the creepy
> >old guy's house, and stupid going off alone with a strange boy.
>
> At the toymaker's house she had her friends to back her up: and she
> also showed a lot of courage and determination, and a level of
> pragmatism. The others were just talking about it: Dawn went ahead
> and did it.
>
> As for going off alone with a strange boy: it's nothing that Willow
> didn't do in 'Welcome to the Hellmouth'...
And he wasn't a total stranger. She'd seen him around a few times
before this, and he had a friend of a friend recommendation from a
friend.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Mike Zeares
William George Ferguson wrote:
>> Amber Tamblyn is a lovely woman, but she really doesn't have the body type
> to wear low-riders.
Lowriders, no. "Booty-cut" jeans, yes.
-- Mike Zeares
vague disclaimer
BTR1701 <BTR...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
To quote you:
"This is also the episode where we find out that you don't even have to
stake vampires in the heart in order to kill them."
This would be your thesis.
Except we already knew this.
What does Giles stomach-stab teach us that years of shoulder stabbing
hasn't already made obvious (ie that none of the writers have ever
studied biology)?
In what way is this the episode that we discovered anything?
Terry
news:ydlpsff...@phosphorus.broad.mit.edu:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> writes:
>
>> Unlike Buffy, she doesn't even have a sacred duty to juggle
>
> I have nothing to add to your fine review; I just thought I'd
> point out that juggling is never a sacred duty. Some even think
> it's a demonic activity.
>
Some people juggle geese. Hand to god! Goslings!
Terry
$ZJ6....@tornado.fastwebnet.it:
> "George W Harris" <gha...@mundsprung.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Although on some moons, the major form of
>> recreation is juggling geese.
>
> You beat me by one minute...
And y'all got me by hours, yet I couldn't resist.
*sigh*
- Terry
BTR1701
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
The difference is that the show didn't go to ridiculous lengths, even to
the point of having the hero endanger innocents, to keep either Cordelia
or Angel around. Nor has it become an immutable law of the "Buffy"
universe that any subsequent story or spin-off set in such universe must
include Cordelia or Angel.
Mike Zeares
vague disclaimer wrote:
>
> Abj gung jnf whfg anhtugl :)
I'm sure I don't know what you're talking about. ;)
-- Mike Zeares
Elisi
> The difference is that the show didn't go to ridiculous lengths, even to
> the point of having the hero endanger innocents, to keep either Cordelia
> or Angel around. Nor has it become an immutable law of the "Buffy"
> universe that any subsequent story or spin-off set in such universe must
> include Cordelia or Angel.
It kept Angel around for 3 years, and that was 3 years too many for
*some* viewers. If you're not into heart-breaking teen romance he
really adds very little to the show except for when he's Angelus (and
even then you have to cope with Buffy being a teary wreck). (These
opinions being my husband's.)
And Angel got a spin-off of his very own - I have yet to see that
happen to Spike.
Don Sample
vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
It isn't the writers. It's the directors, actors and stunt people.
Ken from Chicago
"Paul Hyett" <p...@nojunkmailplease.co.uk> wrote in message
news:gEHiHIGl...@blueyonder.co.uk...
It's like being a parent reliving experiences thru a child's eyes.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"Michael Ikeda" <mmi...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:7IedncMueYZFNknZ...@rcn.net...>> "Mike Zeares" <mze...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1154777544.2...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>>>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
>>>> review threads.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Season Six, Episode 5: "All The Way"
>>>> Writer: Steven S. DeKnight
>>>> Director: David Solomon
>>>>
>
>>
>> I thought the fight scene seemed odd. There should have been
>> more cuts, more edits, too many continuous shots.
>>
>
> One interesting note is how matter-of-fact Buffy seemed in the fight
> scene.
>
> Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
> "Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
> astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
> Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Vampires? Been there staked that. After a the Mayor, a man machine monster,
a hellgod and death, vampires are a walk in the ... well, park.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
>
> Michael Ikeda wrote:
>> "Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote in
>> news:GNydnR5s0flvEEnZ...@comcast.com:
>> >
>> > more cuts, more edits, too many continuous shots.
>> >
>>
>> One interesting note is how matter-of-fact Buffy seemed in the fight
>> scene.
>
> would have been impressed with herself for that car door beheading, and
> would have had a few quips. It's as if she's just going through the
> motions of being the Slayer, instead of really connecting to it. I
> guess being pulled out of Heaven might do that to you. She still
> fights effectively, though. Well, Giles always did want her to just
> "plunge and move on."
>
>
She's not all into feelings, like going thru some kind of fog that needs to
be burned away by the Sun.
-- Ken from Chicago
Apteryx
news:1154782595.1...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Apteryx wrote:
>
>> Young vampires today - no respect for tradition.
>
> Go read this. No spoilers:
>
> http://www.myarseisnotpansy.co.uk/lesley/short/yorks.html
lol !
--
Apteryx
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Just curious - have you been at all spoiled as to what happens in the
> next episode ('Once More, With Feeling')?
Just that it's _Buffy: The Musical_.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
Elisi wrote:
> Apteryx wrote:
>
> > Young vampires today - no respect for tradition.
>
> Go read this. No spoilers:
>
> http://www.myarseisnotpansy.co.uk/lesley/short/yorks.html
Heh.
-AOQ
~Angel should do the accent, though. Not quite Yorkshire, but closer
to it than American is~
Apteryx
news:BTR1702-C10AAD...@news.giganews.com...
True, there was the potential for them to have made balloon animals too. And
if I thought that added anything to the enormity of what Willow does, I'd
have pointed that out.
Willow magically removes an obstacle to her and Tara having sex (and
probably to making balloon animals together anytime soon as well, because I
don't think Tara would have been in the mood for that before the spell). Any
consent Tara gives to sex (or balloon animals) while that spell is
operating is not valid consent because of the spell. And I assume Willow
intends the spell to be permanent, because obviously there will be hell to
pay if Tara finds out about it. Is she intending never to have sex with Tara
again?
--
Apteryx
peachy ashie passion
Juvpu vf jung V xrrc fnlvat nobhg Fcvxr va Frrvat Erq!!
Whew, close call, I nearly forgot to Rot 13 it!
(Harmony) Watcher
> Michael Ikeda wrote:
>
> > So what you're saying is: "He's evil. But you should see him
> > naked."
> >
> > :)
>
> Oh yeah! :)
>
>
Sometimes I imgaine what would happen if AA or CC played Buffy instead of
SMG. A lot more eye candies for us drooling fans of female hot bodies, for
sure (anyone has a good link to prized shots of AA on "Supernatural", no,
not the tame ones on whedon.info). As for Spike, no amount of holy water
would have rinsed my eyes clean if I were to see full frontal nudity of JM,
:p
--
==Harmony Watcher==
Eric Hunter
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 5: "All The Way"
>
> thought you really liked me." "I do. And you like me too." "I
> do." On the one level, we do see Dawn finally showing that she has a
> rudimentary amount of intelligence, being disappointed over losing a
> potential boyfriend but aware that she really ought to kill him anyway.
> On another level, this ties in to the animal aspect of the Buffyverse
> vampire. There's no reason not to believe him that he really does
> like Dawn. He wants to eat and turn her because that's what he does,
> being a vampire and all, and wants to share it. In this case it seems
> less about conscious evil and more about nature, like breathing. That
> may also be part of why Spike was so profoundly affected by being
> forced to survive without being able to act on his instinctive physical
> needs. Just thinking out loud here, not sure what my point is.
There's also the fact that Dawn is very much
playing the "bad girl" with Justin, and she
therefore seems like an appropriate candidate
to be sired. It re-raises the question of
whether vampires are evil because the soulless
evil demons are animating the human husks, or
whether vampires are evil because they tend to
sire evil humans.
Eric.
--
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
what about the second musical?
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> Whatever Willow intended with that spell, she didn't do it to get laid.
> Without the men rea, there is no rape.
trolling again
-rape- like -murder- is oft used in non-legal contexts
and no one has a problem with that
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> > through; he's has problems with commitments before, and this is a big
> > one. And Anya can be a lot to handle.
>
> Anya: So I was thinking maybe a June wedding. But then I remembered that
> they always had the highest percentage of calls for vengeance. So now I'm
> leaning towards as soon as damn possible. I mean, mortal life being so
> short, we gotta get in as much marital bliss as we can before we wither and
> die. I mean, there's just so much to consider, though, I mean, planning the
> wedding, and, and new cars, house and babies. You *have* to plan for babies,
> or they just run roughshod over your entire existence.
its a real shame that after xanders been through with her
anya is still expecting things to fall apart and for xander to cheat on her
she doesnt have a lot of hopefulness
> Honestly, I don't think Tara is being very clear - maybe even a little
> confused herself about what exactly it is that's bothering her. (My
its hard for tara to assert herself
and with willow getting hyperdefensive everytime shes criticized
it makes it that much harder
> speculation.) What struck me was how extravagent a spell Willow was willing
> to use in the Bronze just to find Dawn. I totally understand Tara's shock
> at that.
willow not even willing consider what would happen if she couldnt pull them back
peachy ashie passion
AA???
AA as Buffy?
Super hot bod?
huh?
DysgraphicProgrammer
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
> In article <1154817125.4...@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Stephen Tempest wrote:
> >
> > > Just curious - have you been at all spoiled as to what happens in the
> > > next episode ('Once More, With Feeling')?
> >
> > Just that it's _Buffy: The Musical_.
>
> what about the second musical?
>
BTR1701
<mair_fheal-AA7CE...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
> > Besides, all non-statutory rape statutes have an intent element.
> > Whatever Willow intended with that spell, she didn't do it to get laid.
> > Without the mens rea, there is no rape.
>
> trolling again
You're an idiot. Apparently you've decided to redefine the word "troll"
to mean anyone with whom you disagree or simply don't like. What that
says about you ego is not flattering.
> -rape- like -murder- is oft used in non-legal contexts
And oft used wrongly when done so. Both are specific legal terms with
specific legal meanings.
BTR1701
wrote:
> "BTR1701" <BTR...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:BTR1702-C10AAD...@news.giganews.com...
> > In article <gP2Bg.9142$gU4.5556@trnddc07>, peachy ashie passion
> > <exquisi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >> It's potentially actual rape because there is the potential that they
> >> did have sex.
> >
> > There's the potential that they dressed up like clowns and made balloon
> > animals, too. How are we to know for sure?
> >
> > Besides, all non-statutory rape statutes have an intent element.
> > Whatever Willow intended with that spell, she didn't do it to get laid.
> > Without the mens rea, there is no rape.
>
> True, there was the potential for them to have made balloon animals too.
> And if I thought that added anything to the enormity of what Willow does, I'd
> have pointed that out.
>
> Willow magically removes an obstacle to her and Tara having sex (and
> probably to making balloon animals together anytime soon as well, because
> I don't think Tara would have been in the mood for that before the spell).
> Any consent Tara gives to sex (or balloon animals) while that spell is
> operating is not valid consent because of the spell. And I assume Willow
> intends the spell to be permanent, because obviously there will be hell
> to pay if Tara finds out about it. Is she intending never to have sex with
> Tara again?
You must have skipped over my comment about intent and mens rea.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"DysgraphicProgrammer" <Matthew...@gmail.com> wrote:
the second nudie musical
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
BTR1701 <BTR...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> In article
> <mair_fheal-AA7CE...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
> mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > Besides, all non-statutory rape statutes have an intent element.
> > > Whatever Willow intended with that spell, she didn't do it to get laid.
> > > Without the mens rea, there is no rape.
> >
> > trolling again
>
> You're an idiot. Apparently you've decided to redefine the word "troll"
> And oft used wrongly when done so. Both are specific legal terms with
> specific legal meanings.
speaking of redefinition
Paul Hyett
:
>>>
>> Sometimes I imgaine what would happen if AA or CC played Buffy
>>instead of
>> SMG. A lot more eye candies for us drooling fans of female hot bodies, for
>> sure (anyone has a good link to prized shots of AA on "Supernatural", no,
>> not the tame ones on whedon.info).
>
>
> AA as Buffy?
>
> Super hot bod?
>
> huh?
Just what I was thinking.
I cannot understand why Hollywood thinks the anorexic look is
attractive, I certainly prefer more curvy women.
Mauro
I'm not a fan of the anorexic look in general, but Amy Acker is very cute.
alphakitten
She's cute in the face. The body...not so much.
~Angel
(Harmony) Watcher
"alphakitten" <alphak...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:44D58803...@netscape.net...
--
==Harmony Watcher==
Shuggie
>
>> In article <1154765421.7...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
>> "Apteryx" <Apte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Although she's not actually endangering scores of lives as she was when
>>>she planning to shift everyone in The Bronze to another dimension, this
>>>somehow seems even worse, the mind control of her lover - which as
>>>others have pointed out, is at least potentially actual rape.
>>
>>
>> Well, it's not actual rape unless she uses the mind-control to get Tara
>> to have sex with her. Using it to make her forget an argument is an
>> invasion of personal autonomy to be sure but it doesn't meet the
>> elements of rape.
>
> But the person who just called it actual rape pointed out that they
> climbed in bed together - something that very likely wouldn't have
> happened without the spell.
OK so if a guy lies on a date to make himself more impressive and the
woman he's with ends up sleeping him (something that very likely
wouldn't have happened without the lie) - that's rape?
I don't think so. Unless Willow's spell directly affects her ability to
give consent it's not rape and the date-rape drug analogy is off. All
the spell actually does is remove some of the information on which the
decision to give consent might be based, like the man's lie, but people
sleep with people all the time based on not having all the facts. To
call that rape trivialises real rape IMO.
--
Shuggie
my blog - http://shuggie.livejournal.com/
BTR1701
shu...@gmail.com (Shuggie) wrote:
> peachy ashie passion <exquisi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > BTR1701 wrote:
> >> Well, it's not actual rape unless she uses the
> >> mind-control to get Tara to have sex with her.
> >> Using it to make her forget an argument is an
> >> invasion of personal autonomy to be sure but
> >> it doesn't meet the elements of rape.
> >
> > But the person who just called it actual rape pointed
> > out that they climbed in bed together - something that
> > very likely wouldn't have happened without the spell.
>
> OK so if a guy lies on a date to make himself more
> impressive and the woman he's with ends up sleeping him
> (something that very likely wouldn't have happened
> without the lie) - that's rape?
Some liberal feminists have proposed this very thing. They think that a
guy lying about his job or income to impress a girl who wouldn't have
had sex with him otherwise should result in prison time. Not only is
that ludicrous in terms of the guy but it seems that it pretty much
rewards the woman for being unbelievably shallow.
I wonder if (under this crazy feminist scheme) a guy could have a woman
charged with rape if, after landing in bed and halfway through the act,
he realizes her tits are fake and claims he never would have had sex
with her if he'd known they weren't real.
Probably not. These crazy liberal ideas usually come pre-packaged with a
double-standard and only work one way.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> double-standard and only work one way.
its a vast liberal conspiracy
peachy ashie passion
She's cute, but I really have a hard time thinking of her sexually.
She's just .. not done yet?
I'd look, and I get that other people are attracted, but I'm just not.
peachy ashie passion
You are right as far as it goes.
But.
I climb into bed with a guy with the full knowledge he may have lied
to me. In fact, being an intelligent woman with a decent knowledge of
the human mind, I climb into bed with the certain knowledge that the guy
has lied to me, and that I have made the decision for myself that I
trust him enough to figure it's not about something huge. I make that
choice.
Tara didn't have that choice.
I tend to agree with you that it's not actual rape. But it is a
violation of Tara's mind, the type that mortals can't reproduce without
drugs or hypnosis, so I can certainly sympathize with those who feel it
crosses the line into what we'd call rape in our world.
jil...@hotmail.com
Eric Hunter wrote:
> There's also the fact that Dawn is very much
> playing the "bad girl" with Justin, and she
> therefore seems like an appropriate candidate
> to be sired. It re-raises the question of
> whether vampires are evil because the soulless
> evil demons are animating the human husks, or
> whether vampires are evil because they tend to
> sire evil humans.
.... it doesn't re-raise it for me. To me it's been made quite clear
that good humans who are turned become evil demons animating human
husks and take their personalities from the imprint of the human. Evil
humans who are turned become evil demons animating human husks and take
their personalities from the imprint of the human.
Being vamped! The great equalizer! They're all evil, the only
question is how capable they are!
James Craine
Apteryx wrote:
Suppose nerd Jonathan casts a spell to make himself rich. He
gets a Ferrari, a mansion, and asks CC to go shopping with
him because, he says, all of his old cloths were destroyed
in a fire. CC naturally picks out cool cloths for JL. After
the shopping trip JL looks cool, he thanks her for her help
by taking her to lunch at la Magnos Dineros, and then asks
if she want him to driver her straight home. Now CC has
spent the day with a rich, well dressed, Ferrari driving guy
who lives in a mansion. It would not be a shock if she found
herself attracted to JL at that point. She says she would
like to see la Casa Levinson and they end up in bed.
The next day the spell is broken.
Was CC raped?
alphakitten
Based on what I saw in The House Always Wins, I can't state 'hell no'
emphatically enough.
~Angel
Mel
Ask the Swedish twins from Superstar. They might think so.
Mel
James Craine
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
>>And more on Dawn in a moment, but the third plotline is weaved in among
>>the first two. Willow's friends tend to be worried about the amount
>>of magic she uses, and Tara is the next one to object.
>
>
> Worrying about the amount of magic Willow's using covers several things:
> the sheer amount, the way she wants to use it for almost any routine task
> that doesn't really require magic, and most of all her heedlessness about
> risks to herself and others. Unfortunately Tara is no more successful in
> getting her points across than Giles was. I wonder what kind of magical
> research Willow is doing these days?
I don't see the reason to object to the user of magic just
because it is magic. I use a remote when I could walk
accross the room to change a channel. I use a spreadsheet
when I could solve a math problem using pencil and paper.
I'm not 'abusing' the TV or Excel in this way, I'm just
making life a tiny little bit easier. What, exactly, is
'wrong' with using magic for ordinary tasks? (This is not a
new question, I've thought that Darrin Stevens was nuts
since the 60's.)
Shuggie
She has a roughly equivalent choice. She knows Willow, she knows
Willow's "doing too much magic".
Va snpg jura fur *qbrf* unir gur pubvpr fur fyrrcf jvgu Jvyybj naljnl,
vfa'g gung jnf "pna'g jr whfg or xvffvat abj?" ernyyl zrnaf?
> I tend to agree with you that it's not actual rape. But it is a
> violation of Tara's mind, the type that mortals can't reproduce without
> drugs or hypnosis, so I can certainly sympathize with those who feel it
> crosses the line into what we'd call rape in our world.
>
I can't because it's too much of an exaggeration. I think it's much
nearer my analogy than that of rape (but then I would wouldn't I?).
Perhaps a better analogy might be someone who's done something their
partner disagrees with and they've hidden it to avoid a fight. If they
then go on to sleep together it's not rape but there is a betrayal
involved.
Arbitrar Of Quality
With regards to sex, that's true, but don't forget that there's also
the whole violating-Tara's-mind thing. Take away any issues related to
actual sex, and you still have that, which, whatever you want to call
it, goes beyond simple lying or betrayal.
-AOQ
David E. Milligan
"peachy ashie passion" <exquisi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2qnBg.3441$qw5.3320@trnddc06...
As I've told people I know, I'd rather cuddle up with a nice, big, soft
pillow than lie on a pile of sticks.
jil...@hotmail.com
James Craine wrote:
> Suppose nerd Jonathan casts a spell to make himself rich. He
> gets a Ferrari, a mansion, and asks CC to go shopping with
> him because, he says, all of his old cloths were destroyed
> in a fire. CC naturally picks out cool cloths for JL. After
> the shopping trip JL looks cool, he thanks her for her help
> by taking her to lunch at la Magnos Dineros, and then asks
> if she want him to driver her straight home. Now CC has
> spent the day with a rich, well dressed, Ferrari driving guy
> who lives in a mansion. It would not be a shock if she found
> herself attracted to JL at that point. She says she would
> like to see la Casa Levinson and they end up in bed.
>
> The next day the spell is broken.
>
> Was CC raped?
No, she wasn't. Jonathan cast the spell on himself, not on CC, in this
scenario.
Willow, on the other hand, cast a spell on Tara to MAKE HER forget
being angry so they could get all intimate and Willow be worshipped.
That was rape.
BTR1701
<mair_fheal-E7CE5...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Probably not. These crazy liberal ideas usually come pre-packaged with
> > a double-standard and only work one way.
>
> its a vast liberal conspiracy
Not at all. Conspiracy is not required. Only insanity.
BTR1701
"jil...@hotmail.com" <jil...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> James Craine wrote:
> > Suppose nerd Jonathan casts a spell to make himself rich. He
> > gets a Ferrari, a mansion, and asks CC to go shopping with
> > him because, he says, all of his old cloths were destroyed
> > in a fire. CC naturally picks out cool cloths for JL. After
> > the shopping trip JL looks cool, he thanks her for her help
> > by taking her to lunch at la Magnos Dineros, and then asks
> > if she want him to driver her straight home. Now CC has
> > spent the day with a rich, well dressed, Ferrari driving guy
> > who lives in a mansion. It would not be a shock if she found
> > herself attracted to JL at that point. She says she would
> > like to see la Casa Levinson and they end up in bed.
> >
> > The next day the spell is broken.
> >
> > Was CC raped?
>
> No, she wasn't. Jonathan cast the spell on himself, not on CC, in this
> scenario.
So change it around. A spell that Jonathan casts on everyone in the town
that makes them think he's cool. Eventually he has sex with one of the
girls. Was she raped?