AOQ Review 7-5: "Selfless"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Seven, Episode 5: "Selfless"
(or "Heartless")
Writer: Drew Goddard
Director: David Solomon
Maybe I should start saying, based on a complete lack of any kind of
evidence, that Joss was heavily involved in writing this one.
After setting things up, act one begins with an extended flashback and
doesn't even bust out its credits until a few minutes later. All in
(presumably genuine) Swedish, it continues the tradition of having
Olaf, and everyone associated with him, talk in flowery and verbose
language. I was certainly entertained. Although these sequences are
pleasant, and give some texture to the central story of Audyanka's
self-perceived lack of identity, they do seem a bit heavy on the
fun:depth ratio considering how much screen time they eat up. That's
not too much of a complaint though; nothing wrong with relaxing and
enjoying the "goods and services" mention, and logic that is
"insane and happenstance, like that of a troll." And "the troll
is doing an Olaf impersonation! Hit him with fruits and various
meats!" And so on and on and on. It also momentarily seems like
we'll get an explanation for the ubiquitous rabbit jokes, but are
granted only hints. The later Russian Revolution scene is worth
having, to make the theme of Anya's journey a little more blatant
with the "what else is there?" conversation, and to emphasize the
depths of bloodiness in her past. Plus seeing that she wasn't always
such a fan of capitalism. Also worth noting that the second chunk of
the Scandinavian story finally solves one of things I'd been
wondering about (and thought of as a plot hole) - how Aud turned Olaf
into a troll even though vengeance demons can't invoke vengeance on
behalf of themselves. Magic. Like Willow (almost) in "Wild At
Heart." Okay.
Nitpick Continuity Theatre note: Olaf calls her "Anyanka" in
"Triangle," despite probably never having known her by that name.
Is English the official supernatural language, or is the show's
Universal Translator doing the work for us?
Willow, kinda standing outside the center of the action, triggers a few
of its central plot points. The first comes with her interactions with
Anya, quickly figuring out that the latter isn't a good liar. Even
if one ignores her slow-moving conscience, Anya couldn't have hidden
what she'd done for long. It's exciting to see Wil her back on top
of things, with the casual way she deflects the spider attack. And of
course stuck in there is a little reminder of how thin the line is
between the fun, cuddly character she wants to be and the contemptuous
and violent individual that's also part of whom she is. Naturally,
she has to be the first one of the group to try to reach out to Anya
and help her get over the mass-murder; that's the way such things
work in the Buffyverse.
I feel a little strange giving fashion updates, but hey, I noticed
these things: first, Willow's dressing the way Buffy might have in
the show's early days, and second, the workmanlike jeans-and-T-shirt
look is working well for Xander.
This episode is about all of the four main Scoobies, and not so much
anyone else (Trachtenberg's appearance is more or less just so they
can say she appeared). Spike's cameo is an interesting little scene,
at least. Turning to Buffy for someone to talk to about his insanity
is appropriate both from character and "let's drawing parallels
with last year!!" perspectives. And before the reveal of the
fake-out, I actually did wonder whether she was going nuts with the
sympathy and forgiveness as a response to the end of "Help." Even
afterward, it's unclear whether either Buffy was real, although it
seems the viewer is meant to conclude that Buffy #2 is the real deal,
based on the way it's shot, and the notion that Spike makes sense to
himself but not to the outside world.
So there's a bout of spider-killing, itself an enjoyable battle,
which leads into one of those ever-popular scenes in which our friends
get to sit around yelling at each other. And it just may be the best
one yet. Buffy is back on her game as the Slayer. Xander's appeals
all come from the heart, but it leads him to bring the past into play
in a simultaneously funny and moving manner: "This isn't new ground
for us. When our friends go all crazy and start killing people, we
help them." "Sitting right here!" It's wonderful the way
Buffy steers the conversation and keeps it about necessity, showing
gradually escalating annoyance but keeping it under control... and
unloads from time to time with one or two yelled lines when it becomes
too much, then makes herself calm down a little. It's the
combination of Xander's somewhat fair issues with being shut out, and
monstrously unfair accusations of being an uncaring killer that trigger
her "I KILLED ANGEL!" explosion. And finally, after all these
years, Buffy calls Xander to task for The Lie... but it's not just
for the sake of beating him up over it, it's in the name of proving a
point - "it is always 'different!' It's always
complicated." As in "Villains," when she was almost arguing the
opposite side, Buffy emerges as the voice of reason, and the others
can't deny that she makes sense, even if they can't be part of her
fight. That conversation ends with Brendon's delivery on "there
has to be another way" suggesting that he sees that, and Buffy's
convincing and earnest "then please find it." Ye gods, what a
great scene.
Things then travel to Anya's side, and Xander's continued attempt
to get through to her with his world-saving mouth. Caulfield is at her
best here, with the rest of the cast not far behind. It's odd and
fascinating the way she almost identifies with Buffy as a fellow
supernatural creature who knows what her job "should" be, and then
how she turns on the anger once said Slayer actually appears. Both
segments of the fight are exciting, almost rivaling some of the other
times Buffy's had to face off with a former friend.
One of the episode's most unorthodox moments comes when Anya is
abruptly stabbed through the heart to close act three. My eyes popped
wide open there. And then act four spends like three minutes taking us
back to Sunnydale, 2001. Can't say I saw that coming. It's
strange and maybe gimmicky, but given that it would work so well as
either a eulogy or a restatement of theme en route to her surviving,
good on it. I don't like having to be reminded of dumb things like
the end of "Hell's Bells" and the source of the spell in OMWF,
both of which are part of this episode, but such are the perils of
serialized TV.
If anyone cares, I didn't notice the mustard until I saw it on the
transcript, but that's pretty funny. And speaking of dumb but funny,
"oh, breathtaking. It's like somebody slaughtered an Abercrombie &
Fitch catalog."
Meanwhile, seems like every plot thread of "Selfless" is heavily
tied to the past. That amulet that Willow's had for the past three
years comes into play as she takes it upon herself to have another chat
with D'Hoffryn. (And keep in mind, Willow + strong magic, especially
in the name of helping friends + evil impulses = potentially bad, which
is perhaps why the "shut your whimpering mouth!" scene is in this
episode. And which makes the callback to "Something Blue" seem
even more appropriate. "Selfless" is put together so well.)
Everyone's favorite demon patriarch may be a dick, but he's also
the one to remind everyone that Anya has her own existence
independently of everyone else (or should), and should thus be the one
to decide whether her vengeance can be undone.
That leads into a second attempt to make the viewer think that she
might die. At this point, I was suspecting that if the show wanted to
kill Anya, it'd have done so already, so I was all prepared to get
annoyed over all this buildup and misdirection for nothing. As it
turns out, Anya lives, and the buildup isn't for nothing at all.
D'Hoffryn echoes a Mutant Enemy writer's credo: "never go for the
kill when you can go for the pain." And throw in another reference
to the "beneath you it devours" thing for good measure, just to add
to the sense of rising action tying together the individual episodes of
early S7. I love this show. Even when trying to atone, Anya's a
killer. Death is too easy a redemption in the Buffyverse. Never much
cared for the character of Hallie, so it's a double blessing to see
her death used so effectively.
Regarding Xander's final exchange with Anya: "Xander - what if
I'm really nobody?" "Don't be a dope." Such a sweet insult.
You know what that reminds me of? It's ROT13ed for those who for
some reason still haven't seen _Firefly_. Ohg ng gur raq bs
"Freravgl" (gur rcvfbqr), Fvzba erfcbaqf gb Evire'f tengvghqr naq
qvforyvrs gung ur'q or noyr gb fnir ure jvgu "lbh'er n qhzzl;"
clearly not true, but it somehow conveys more affection than a more
straightforward declaration of love would. Well, same thing here.
So...
One-sentence summary: An episode for all seasons.
AOQ rating: SUPERLATIVE
[Season Seven so far:
1) "Lessons" - Good
2) "Beneath You" - Decent
3) "Same Time, Same Place" - Excellent
4) "Help" - Good
5) "Selfless" - SUPERLATIVE]
One Bit Shy
news:1158299151.2...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 5: "Selfless"
> AOQ rating: SUPERLATIVE
AOQ, you're forgiven everything. Even Hell's Bells. This is my favorite
episode of the season.
It's too late for me to really respond to this, but I thought I'd mention
that according to the commentary, the original idea had been to dub badly
(deliberately badly) the Aud scenes. The Swedish was written just to have
something for them to mouth, and they were told not to worry too much about
getting it right. But the actors went ahead and learned the lines anyway
and did what you saw, which ended up better than the dubbed idea.
And the commentary also indicates that Joss did, indeed, have a heavy hand
in this.
OBS
yamsham
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1158299151.2...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 5: "Selfless"
> (or "Heartless")
> Writer: Drew Goddard
> Director: David Solomon
>
> doesn't even bust out its credits until a few minutes later. All in
> (presumably genuine) Swedish
Well, I can't vouch for the pronunciation, but apparently they learned their
lines phonetically.
> And finally, after all these
> years, Buffy calls Xander to task for The Lie...
Is there any indication she knows it was a lie? I don't think so.
> That conversation ends with Brendon's delivery on "there
> has to be another way" suggesting that he sees that, and Buffy's
> convincing and earnest "then please find it." Ye gods, what a
> great scene.
Yeah. Watched it today. Gives me goosebumps, it's so well-written, so
well-acted, so everything.
> And speaking of dumb but funny,
> "oh, breathtaking. It's like somebody slaughtered an Abercrombie &
> Fitch catalog."
That's one of those lines that really funny and really horrifying at the
same time.
> Everyone's favorite demon patriarch may be a dick,
You know, before this episode, I'd always thought of D'Hoffryn as simply
another jokey, funny demon, like Clem. But he is as evil as they come.
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: An episode for all seasons.
>
> AOQ rating: SUPERLATIVE
Holy crap! You're rating system goes up to eleven! It is a really tight
episode, but I think I'd play it safe and call it "excellent."
But what? No "TISBILA?" Well, here's one:
Anya singing: "Mrs. Anya Lame-Ass-Made-Up-Middle-Name Harris..."
Ian Galbraith
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 5: "Selfless"
> (or "Heartless")
> Writer: Drew Goddard
> Director: David Solomon
> Maybe I should start saying, based on a complete lack of any kind of
> evidence, that Joss was heavily involved in writing this one.
He probably did but Drew Goddard is still a great writer, he may have
only just come onboard with ME in S7, but he's involved with some of the
very best episodes this season and Angel S5.
[snip]
> So...
> One-sentence summary: An episode for all seasons.
> AOQ rating: SUPERLATIVE
Can't help but agree its one of the very best Buffy episodes.
[snip]
--
You can't stop the signal
Rincewind
>
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 5: "Selfless"
> (or "Heartless")
> Writer: Drew Goddard
> Director: David Solomon
>
> Maybe I should start saying, based on a complete lack of any kind of
> evidence, that Joss was heavily involved in writing this one.
He seems to be interested in BtVS again, despite all the work he is doing in
AtS and Firefly.
The other great episode of the season also has a lot of uncredited work by
Joss (will talk more about it when you get there).
In your last review you noticed that Caulfield didn't appear in that episode
at all: I suppose the reason is she was already working on this episode
(recording the song and doing the long flashback sequences was certainly a
lot more work than usual).
> After setting things up, act one begins with an extended flashback and
> doesn't even bust out its credits until a few minutes later. All in
> (presumably genuine) Swedish, it continues the tradition of having
> Olaf, and everyone associated with him, talk in flowery and verbose
> language. I was certainly entertained. Although these sequences are
> pleasant, and give some texture to the central story of Audyanka's
> self-perceived lack of identity, they do seem a bit heavy on the
> fun:depth ratio considering how much screen time they eat up. That's
> not too much of a complaint though; nothing wrong with relaxing and
> enjoying the "goods and services" mention, and logic that is
> "insane and happenstance, like that of a troll." And "the troll
> is doing an Olaf impersonation! Hit him with fruits and various
> meats!" And so on and on and on. It also momentarily seems like
> we'll get an explanation for the ubiquitous rabbit jokes, but are
> granted only hints. The later Russian Revolution scene is worth
> having, to make the theme of Anya's journey a little more blatant
> with the "what else is there?" conversation, and to emphasize the
> depths of bloodiness in her past. Plus seeing that she wasn't always
> such a fan of capitalism.
I just love communist Anya: "The worker will overthrow absolutism and lead
the proletariat to a victorious communist revolution, resulting in
socio-economic paradise on earth. It's common sense, really."
> So there's a bout of spider-killing, itself an enjoyable battle,...
Finally a really scary monster which is not a man in a rubber costume.
> ... which leads into one of those ever-popular scenes in which our friends
> get to sit around yelling at each other. And it just may be the best
> one yet. Buffy is back on her game as the Slayer. Xander's appeals
> all come from the heart, but it leads him to bring the past into play
> in a simultaneously funny and moving manner: "This isn't new ground
> for us. When our friends go all crazy and start killing people, we
> help them." "Sitting right here!" It's wonderful the way
> Buffy steers the conversation and keeps it about necessity, showing
> gradually escalating annoyance but keeping it under control... and
> unloads from time to time with one or two yelled lines when it becomes
> too much, then makes herself calm down a little. It's the
> combination of Xander's somewhat fair issues with being shut out, and
> monstrously unfair accusations of being an uncaring killer that trigger
> her "I KILLED ANGEL!" explosion. And finally, after all these
> years, Buffy calls Xander to task for The Lie...
And he still doesn't admit it was a lie and doesn't apologize...
> but it's not just
> for the sake of beating him up over it, it's in the name of proving a
> point - "it is always 'different!' It's always
> complicated." As in "Villains," when she was almost arguing the
> opposite side, Buffy emerges as the voice of reason, and the others
> can't deny that she makes sense, even if they can't be part of her
> fight. That conversation ends with Brendon's delivery on "there
> has to be another way" suggesting that he sees that, and Buffy's
> convincing and earnest "then please find it." Ye gods, what a
> great scene.
This is the kind of scene that was sadly missing in season 6: if at least 5
percent of the scenes of season 6 had been so well written and convincing
instead of being mostly stock dialogue it could have been a great season...
> One of the episode's most unorthodox moments comes when Anya is
> abruptly stabbed through the heart to close act three. My eyes popped
> wide open there. And then act four spends like three minutes taking us
> back to Sunnydale, 2001. Can't say I saw that coming. It's
> strange and maybe gimmicky, but given that it would work so well as
> either a eulogy or a restatement of theme en route to her surviving,
> good on it.
The moment the song abruptly ends and we are back to the present is one of
my top five BtVS moments.
> That leads into a second attempt to make the viewer think that she
> might die. At this point, I was suspecting that if the show wanted to
> kill Anya, it'd have done so already, so I was all prepared to get
> annoyed over all this buildup and misdirection for nothing. As it
> turns out, Anya lives, and the buildup isn't for nothing at all.
> D'Hoffryn echoes a Mutant Enemy writer's credo: "never go for the
> kill when you can go for the pain." And throw in another reference
> to the "beneath you it devours" thing for good measure, just to add
> to the sense of rising action tying together the individual episodes of
> early S7. I love this show. Even when trying to atone, Anya's a
> killer. Death is too easy a redemption in the Buffyverse. Never much
> cared for the character of Hallie, so it's a double blessing to see
> her death used so effectively.
Yeah, I've never been so happy to see the end of a character.
> One-sentence summary: An episode for all seasons.
>
> AOQ rating: SUPERLATIVE
Well, I just go with Excellent, but I can understand your excitement for one
of the best episodes ever.
Just out of curiosity: have you ever given such a high rating to any other
episode of BtVS or AtS (I started reading your reviews when you were already
at the end of S4, so I don't know about the earlier seasons).
Rincewind.
--
Lines you'll never hear on Buffy:
DRUSILLA: The Slayer. I can't see her! (wailing) It's dark where she is!
(turns to Spike). Kill, Spike.
SPIKE: It's done, luv.
DRUSILLA: Kill her for Princess?
SPIKE: I'll chop her into messes. Unless she's, y'know, hot or something.
DRUSILLA: (groans)
SPIKE: What? She's hot, isn't she? (jumping up and down, excited) Oooh,
yeah, the Slayer's a hottie!!
DRUSILLA: Bloody hell.
Don Sample
"yamsham" <yam...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1158299151.2...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > threads.
> >
> >
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Seven, Episode 5: "Selfless"
> > (or "Heartless")
> > Writer: Drew Goddard
> > Director: David Solomon
> >
> > After setting things up, act one begins with an extended flashback and
> > doesn't even bust out its credits until a few minutes later. All in
> > (presumably genuine) Swedish
>
> Well, I can't vouch for the pronunciation, but apparently they learned their
> lines phonetically.
The pronunciation is good enough that actual Swedish speakers can
understand it, but apparently their accents are horrible.
>
> > And finally, after all these
> > years, Buffy calls Xander to task for The Lie...
>
> Is there any indication she knows it was a lie? I don't think so.
Willow now knows that he lied, though.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Apteryx
news:1158299151.2...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> threads.
>
> having, to make the theme of Anya's journey a little more blatant
> with the "what else is there?" conversation, and to emphasize the
> depths of bloodiness in her past. Plus seeing that she wasn't always
> such a fan of capitalism.
She's clearly made at least two radical ideological changes - earlier she
was planning to exchange her rabbits not for "goods and services" but for
"goodwill and the sense of accomplishment that stems from selflessly giving
of yourself to others" which is neither capitalist nor Marxist. But although
the content of her beliefs changes, her certainty in them is constant.
> can say she appeared). Spike's cameo is an interesting little scene,
> at least. Turning to Buffy for someone to talk to about his insanity
> is appropriate both from character and "let's drawing parallels
> with last year!!" perspectives. And before the reveal of the
> fake-out, I actually did wonder whether she was going nuts with the
> sympathy and forgiveness as a response to the end of "Help." Even
> afterward, it's unclear whether either Buffy was real, although it
> seems the viewer is meant to conclude that Buffy #2 is the real deal,
> based on the way it's shot, and the notion that Spike makes sense to
> himself but not to the outside world.
As in late season 5, Spike seems to have himself a more pleasant Buffy as
well as the regular, less pleasant one.
> her "I KILLED ANGEL!" explosion. And finally, after all these
> years, Buffy calls Xander to task for The Lie... but it's not just
> for the sake of beating him up over it, it's in the name of proving a
> point - "it is always 'different!' It's always
> complicated."
Buffy still doesn't appear to know it was a lie (about Willow message re
killing Angel), unless she is playing very subtle head games with him.
Actually if she did know, I figure she'd be playing less subtle games with
his head.
> One of the episode's most unorthodox moments comes when Anya is
> abruptly stabbed through the heart to close act three. My eyes popped
> wide open there. And then act four spends like three minutes taking us
> back to Sunnydale, 2001. Can't say I saw that coming. It's
> strange and maybe gimmicky, but given that it would work so well as
> either a eulogy or a restatement of theme en route to her surviving,
> good on it.
Its the highlight of the episode for me, a long delayed addendum to OMWF
> If anyone cares, I didn't notice the mustard until I saw it on the
> transcript, but that's pretty funny.
Loved the mustard :)
>
> That leads into a second attempt to make the viewer think that she
> might die. At this point, I was suspecting that if the show wanted to
> kill Anya, it'd have done so already, so I was all prepared to get
> annoyed over all this buildup and misdirection for nothing. As it
> turns out, Anya lives, and the buildup isn't for nothing at all.
> D'Hoffryn echoes a Mutant Enemy writer's credo: "never go for the
> kill when you can go for the pain."
He's not Head of Vengeance for nothing.
> And throw in another reference
> to the "beneath you it devours" thing for good measure, just to add
> to the sense of rising action tying together the individual episodes of
> early S7.
Somehow his implied "it ain't over" threat of is more disturbing than when
the Gorch brothers said it explicitly.
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: An episode for all seasons.
>
> AOQ rating: SUPERLATIVE
Glad to see you finally gave something that rating. I wouldn't go that far
myself. Technically I only rate it Good, but its one of those half dozen
high Goods where I have to apolegetically point out that I have arbitrarily
linked your verbal ratings to my numerical ones in a way that an episode
must reach a rating of 3.50 or better in my ratings for me to call it
Excellent, and there are only 17 BtVS episodes that do, all of which we have
already seen, but that I wouldn't argue with Excellent. It is my 19th
favourite BtVS episode, 1st in season 7 (currently - it has a rival for that
position from which it has never been seperated by more than a hair's
breadth, and which could still overtake it when we get to it).
Apteryx
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 5: "Selfless"
> (or "Heartless")
> Writer: Drew Goddard
> Director: David Solomon
>
> Maybe I should start saying, based on a complete lack of any kind of
> evidence, that Joss was heavily involved in writing this one.
Drew Goddard talks about visiting Joss on the Firefly set, to show him a
draft of the script, and telling him, "It would be cool if we could do a
flashback to the musical. Can you write a song?" and Joss telling him
he had too many other things he had to do, and there was no way he'd
have the time to do that, and then showing up the next day with the song
written.
> Nitpick Continuity Theatre note: Olaf calls her "Anyanka" in
> "Triangle," despite probably never having known her by that name.
Maybe she dropped by to torment him occasionally over the next couple of
decades, so he got to know her by her new name. (How long do trolls
live, anyway?)
Another nitpicky continuity thing though: They screwed up the dates
again. It should have been about 900AD, not 880. "I'm eleven hundred
and twenty years old. Just give me a frickin' beer!" makes 880 the year
Anya was born.
(Historical nitpickers also point out that the Winter Palace wasn't
razed in the 1905 revolt. That one didn't really take. They had to try
it again, about a decade later to really toss out the Tsar)
> And of
> course stuck in there is a little reminder of how thin the line is
> between the fun, cuddly character she wants to be and the contemptuous
> and violent individual that's also part of whom she is.
Continuity whores also notice that the girl in the closet was one of the
girls in Willow's sociology class back in last year's "Life Serial."
> Things then travel to Anya's side, and Xander's continued attempt
> to get through to her with his world-saving mouth. Caulfield is at her
> best here, with the rest of the cast not far behind. It's odd and
> fascinating the way she almost identifies with Buffy as a fellow
> supernatural creature who knows what her job "should" be, and then
> how she turns on the anger once said Slayer actually appears. Both
> segments of the fight are exciting, almost rivaling some of the other
> times Buffy's had to face off with a former friend.
One thing about that fight: Like Faith in "Five by Five," I think Anya
is trying to commit suicide here. She's trying to make Buffy kill her.
She is in her stronger, demon form, while Buffy has the sword, and keeps
trying to goad Buffy into killing her. When she gets the sword, she
switches back to being Anya, with merely human strength, when she
attacks Buffy.
Buffy has also figured this out. When she pinned Anya to the wall with
the sword, she knew she hadn't killed her. Her whole attitude while
Anya is unconscious isn't "Oh my god! I just killed a friend!" It's
more "Hurry up and wake up already, I haven't got all day!"
> I don't like having to be reminded of dumb things like ...
> the source of the spell in OMWF,
And yet, even with this reminder, some people still refuse to accept
that Xander really did it.
> If anyone cares, I didn't notice the mustard until I saw it on the
> transcript, but that's pretty funny.
Marti Noxin (AKA Parking Meter Lady) was his singing partner.
> Everyone's favorite demon patriarch may be a dick, but he's also
> the one to remind everyone that Anya has her own existence
> independently of everyone else (or should), and should thus be the one
> to decide whether her vengeance can be undone.
And we learn that Vengeance Demons have cubicals, gather around water
coolers to discuss the latest in vengeance, and the Flaying of Warren
Mears has been immortalized on Lloyd's cubical wall.
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: An episode for all seasons.
>
> AOQ rating: SUPERLATIVE
Wow. I knew that you had a "SUPERLATIVE" rating that you reserved for
extra special episodes, and I agree that this was a strong one, but I'm
surprised that you gave it out for this one, after some of the episodes
that you merely ranked as "Excellent."
DysgraphicProgrammer
Perhaps they have encountered each other in the intervening time?
> Is English the official supernatural language, or is the show's
> Universal Translator doing the work for us?
>
Either an English language convention, or D'Hoffryn speaks a universal
language understood by all. After all, not just English speakers have
vengeance needs.
> Willow, kinda standing outside the center of the action, triggers a few
> of its central plot points. The first comes with her interactions with
> Anya, quickly figuring out that the latter isn't a good liar. Even
> if one ignores her slow-moving conscience, Anya couldn't have hidden
> what she'd done for long. It's exciting to see Wil her back on top
> of things, with the casual way she deflects the spider attack. And of
> course stuck in there is a little reminder of how thin the line is
> between the fun, cuddly character she wants to be and the contemptuous
> and violent individual that's also part of whom she is. Naturally,
> she has to be the first one of the group to try to reach out to Anya
> and help her get over the mass-murder; that's the way such things
> work in the Buffyverse.
Willow can work white magic if she takes her time but when she nedes to
reach for power quickly, she gets a head full of the Black stuff. Would
I be too strange if i mentioned that I think Evil Dark Magick Willow
is just as cute and adorable as yellow crayon computer hacker Wllow?
It was real. It was emotional. It was fantastic. My hats off to the
writer.
> Things then travel to Anya's side, and Xander's continued attempt
> to get through to her with his world-saving mouth. Caulfield is at her
> best here, with the rest of the cast not far behind. It's odd and
> fascinating the way she almost identifies with Buffy as a fellow
> supernatural creature who knows what her job "should" be, and then
> how she turns on the anger once said Slayer actually appears. Both
> segments of the fight are exciting, almost rivaling some of the other
> times Buffy's had to face off with a former friend.
>
> One of the episode's most unorthodox moments comes when Anya is
> abruptly stabbed through the heart to close act three. My eyes popped
> wide open there. And then act four spends like three minutes taking us
> back to Sunnydale, 2001. Can't say I saw that coming. It's
> strange and maybe gimmicky, but given that it would work so well as
> either a eulogy or a restatement of theme en route to her surviving,
> good on it. I don't like having to be reminded of dumb things like
> the end of "Hell's Bells" and the source of the spell in OMWF,
> both of which are part of this episode, but such are the perils of
> serialized TV.
In the commentary, the writer mentioned that he asked Joss if he could
flash back to OMWF. Joss apparently said Hell No, on the grounds
that it would be way to much work.
The next day Joss came in and said "Last night, I wrote the song"
Wow. Well if any ep deserves it this is the one. I may not be one of my
special
favorites, but it is pretty damned good.
Ken from Chicago
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote in message
news:12gkhap...@news.supernews.com...
Don't try this at home, kids. They are professionals.
-- Ken from Chicago
Elisi
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 5: "Selfless"
> (or "Heartless")
I thought you'd like this one - I couldn't imagine that you wouldn't! I
know you hated Hell's Bells and it's abrupt gear change in the
Anya/Xander story, but this is where it was going. As OBS said at the
time - Anya needs redemption. Now she has a chance.
> Maybe I should start saying, based on a complete lack of any kind of
> evidence, that Joss was heavily involved in writing this one.
In the commentary Drew talks about how he had dinner with Joss and
discussed this ep. He also asked Joss if he could write a song for a
OMWF flashback, to which Joss replied that he was *far* too busy,
sorry. Next day he brought the song! Joss is a god!
> After setting things up, act one begins with an extended flashback and
> doesn't even bust out its credits until a few minutes later. All in
> (presumably genuine) Swedish,
Yes it is, although Anya speaks her lines so fast that it sounds like
gobbeldygook. But Olaf is very good. Funny anyway.
> it continues the tradition of having
> Olaf, and everyone associated with him, talk in flowery and verbose
> language. I was certainly entertained. Although these sequences are
> pleasant, and give some texture to the central story of Audyanka's
> self-perceived lack of identity, they do seem a bit heavy on the
> fun:depth ratio considering how much screen time they eat up. That's
> not too much of a complaint though; nothing wrong with relaxing and
> enjoying the "goods and services" mention, and logic that is
> "insane and happenstance, like that of a troll." And "the troll
> is doing an Olaf impersonation! Hit him with fruits and various
> meats!" And so on and on and on. It also momentarily seems like
> we'll get an explanation for the ubiquitous rabbit jokes, but are
> granted only hints.
Also on the commentary Drew laments how little they used their viking
village, which they took great pains about. :)
The later Russian Revolution scene is worth
> having, to make the theme of Anya's journey a little more blatant
> with the "what else is there?" conversation, and to emphasize the
> depths of bloodiness in her past. Plus seeing that she wasn't always
> such a fan of capitalism.
"Vengeance is what I am." Excellent scene.
Also worth noting that the second chunk of
> the Scandinavian story finally solves one of things I'd been
> wondering about (and thought of as a plot hole) - how Aud turned Olaf
> into a troll even though vengeance demons can't invoke vengeance on
> behalf of themselves. Magic. Like Willow (almost) in "Wild At
> Heart." Okay.
It works - and I like how it turns from 'Ye Olde Filme' to real colour
as we see Aud and D'Hoffryn come into shot. The whole Aud thing was
actually researched very carefully. Back in viking times there was a
chief called Olaf, whose wife Aud was well known for being good with
money. :)
> Willow, kinda standing outside the center of the action, triggers a few
> of its central plot points. The first comes with her interactions with
> Anya, quickly figuring out that the latter isn't a good liar. Even
> if one ignores her slow-moving conscience, Anya couldn't have hidden
> what she'd done for long. It's exciting to see Wil her back on top
> of things, with the casual way she deflects the spider attack. And of
> course stuck in there is a little reminder of how thin the line is
> between the fun, cuddly character she wants to be and the contemptuous
> and violent individual that's also part of whom she is. Naturally,
> she has to be the first one of the group to try to reach out to Anya
> and help her get over the mass-murder; that's the way such things
> work in the Buffyverse.
She also says how she hasn't forgotten a single part of what she did,
showing that just because she might try to act like Willow of old, her
actions haunt her.
> This episode is about all of the four main Scoobies, and not so much
> anyone else (Trachtenberg's appearance is more or less just so they
> can say she appeared). Spike's cameo is an interesting little scene,
> at least. Turning to Buffy for someone to talk to about his insanity
> is appropriate both from character and "let's drawing parallels
> with last year!!" perspectives. And before the reveal of the
> fake-out, I actually did wonder whether she was going nuts with the
> sympathy and forgiveness as a response to the end of "Help." Even
> afterward, it's unclear whether either Buffy was real, although it
> seems the viewer is meant to conclude that Buffy #2 is the real deal,
> based on the way it's shot, and the notion that Spike makes sense to
> himself but not to the outside world.
Yes #2 is the real one - and we see that Spike is perfectly lucid with
the faux one, and then gets all confused and crazy when the real one
shows up. (Many people were cross that the nice Buffy turned out to be
fake, but 'nice' ain't going to help. The real Buffy is a lot colder,
but also more practical.)
> So there's a bout of spider-killing, itself an enjoyable battle,
> which leads into one of those ever-popular scenes in which our friends
> get to sit around yelling at each other.
I love how the show does that. We have Buffy and Xander out looking for
the nasty demon, all quips and fun - and then moments later everything
falls to pieces. Wow. Just wow.
> And it just may be the best
> one yet. Buffy is back on her game as the Slayer. Xander's appeals
> all come from the heart, but it leads him to bring the past into play
> in a simultaneously funny and moving manner: "This isn't new ground
> for us. When our friends go all crazy and start killing people, we
> help them." "Sitting right here!"
And Xander's past actions come back to bite him *so* hard. Remeber
'Becoming'?
Xander: "You can paint this however you want. Way I see it you want to
forget all about Ms Calendar's murder so you can have your boyfriend
back."
Ouch.
> It's wonderful the way
> Buffy steers the conversation and keeps it about necessity, showing
> gradually escalating annoyance but keeping it under control... and
> unloads from time to time with one or two yelled lines when it becomes
> too much, then makes herself calm down a little. It's the
> combination of Xander's somewhat fair issues with being shut out, and
> monstrously unfair accusations of being an uncaring killer that trigger
> her "I KILLED ANGEL!" explosion.
*goosebumps* And she's standing there, with bloody scratches on her
shoulders from her most recent fight...
> And finally, after all these
> years, Buffy calls Xander to task for The Lie... but it's not just
> for the sake of beating him up over it, it's in the name of proving a
> point - "it is always 'different!' It's always
> complicated." As in "Villains," when she was almost arguing the
> opposite side, Buffy emerges as the voice of reason, and the others
> can't deny that she makes sense, even if they can't be part of her
> fight. That conversation ends with Brendon's delivery on "there
> has to be another way" suggesting that he sees that, and Buffy's
> convincing and earnest "then please find it." Ye gods, what a
> great scene.
Amen. And the way she says "I am the law." God what an awful
responsibility - it always comes down to her. I just want to give her a
hug.
> Things then travel to Anya's side, and Xander's continued attempt
> to get through to her with his world-saving mouth. Caulfield is at her
> best here, with the rest of the cast not far behind. It's odd and
> fascinating the way she almost identifies with Buffy as a fellow
> supernatural creature who knows what her job "should" be, and then
> how she turns on the anger once said Slayer actually appears. Both
> segments of the fight are exciting, almost rivaling some of the other
> times Buffy's had to face off with a former friend.
>
> One of the episode's most unorthodox moments comes when Anya is
> abruptly stabbed through the heart to close act three. My eyes popped
> wide open there.
This btw is the 'offical' (metaphorical) death of the vengeance demon
Anyanka.
> And then act four spends like three minutes taking us
> back to Sunnydale, 2001. Can't say I saw that coming. It's
> strange and maybe gimmicky, but given that it would work so well as
> either a eulogy or a restatement of theme en route to her surviving,
> good on it. I don't like having to be reminded of dumb things like
> the end of "Hell's Bells" and the source of the spell in OMWF,
> both of which are part of this episode, but such are the perils of
> serialized TV.
It's so beautiful and heartbreaking. And we see just how singe mindedly
she was pinning her existence on Xander. As my friend Avrelia once said
in an essay about Anya: Marriage would seal her success at being human.
> If anyone cares, I didn't notice the mustard until I saw it on the
> transcript, but that's pretty funny.
The continuity of this program is breathtaking sometimes.
> Meanwhile, seems like every plot thread of "Selfless" is heavily
> tied to the past. That amulet that Willow's had for the past three
> years comes into play as she takes it upon herself to have another chat
> with D'Hoffryn.
"Oh it's you."
And:
"The flaying of Warren Meers... Truly inspired. That was water cooler
vengeance. Lloyd has a sketch of it on his wall."
(And keep in mind, Willow + strong magic, especially
> in the name of helping friends + evil impulses = potentially bad, which
> is perhaps why the "shut your whimpering mouth!" scene is in this
> episode. And which makes the callback to "Something Blue" seem
> even more appropriate. "Selfless" is put together so well.)
Yup.
> Everyone's favorite demon patriarch may be a dick, but he's also
> the one to remind everyone that Anya has her own existence
> independently of everyone else (or should), and should thus be the one
> to decide whether her vengeance can be undone.
>
> That leads into a second attempt to make the viewer think that she
> might die. At this point, I was suspecting that if the show wanted to
> kill Anya, it'd have done so already, so I was all prepared to get
> annoyed over all this buildup and misdirection for nothing. As it
> turns out, Anya lives, and the buildup isn't for nothing at all.
> D'Hoffryn echoes a Mutant Enemy writer's credo: "never go for the
> kill when you can go for the pain."
I love that line. Another point is that Anya _was_ D'Hoffryn's
favourite. Which is why he's so especially cruel.
> And throw in another reference
> to the "beneath you it devours" thing for good measure, just to add
> to the sense of rising action tying together the individual episodes of
> early S7. I love this show.
Don't we all?
> Even when trying to atone, Anya's a
> killer. Death is too easy a redemption in the Buffyverse. Never much
> cared for the character of Hallie, so it's a double blessing to see
> her death used so effectively.
This episode is usually referred to as Anya's 'Fool For Love', but it
also has echoes of 'Five by Five' and manges to do the same thing, if
differently.
> Regarding Xander's final exchange with Anya: "Xander - what if
> I'm really nobody?" "Don't be a dope." Such a sweet insult.
> You know what that reminds me of? It's ROT13ed for those who for
> some reason still haven't seen _Firefly_. Ohg ng gur raq bs
> "Freravgl" (gur rcvfbqr), Fvzba erfcbaqf gb Evire'f tengvghqr naq
> qvforyvrs gung ur'q or noyr gb fnir ure jvgu "lbh'er n qhzzl;"
> clearly not true, but it somehow conveys more affection than a more
> straightforward declaration of love would. Well, same thing here.
Very good point!
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: An episode for all seasons.
>
> AOQ rating: SUPERLATIVE
Woohoo! I think I have to agree. :)
vague disclaimer
"DysgraphicProgrammer" <Matthew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Would
> I be too strange if i mentioned that I think Evil Dark Magick Willow
> is just as cute and adorable as yellow crayon computer hacker Wllow?
Why on earth would anybody think that strange?
--
Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
vague disclaimer
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> Nitpick Continuity Theatre note: Olaf calls her "Anyanka" in
> "Triangle," despite probably never having known her by that name.
In the commentary Goddard says he was aware that using Aud created a
continuity glitch, but decided the cool factor made it worthwhile.
Memo to other writers: when doing fan service, his is the template - so
much of it and never once feeling intrusive.
shuggie
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 5: "Selfless"
> (or "Heartless")
> Writer: Drew Goddard
> Director: David Solomon
>
> Maybe I should start saying, based on a complete lack of any kind of
> evidence, that Joss was heavily involved in writing this one.
>
The rough* working process in ME was:
* Joss comes up with major seasonal arc story
* writers pitch ideas for individual episodes
* episodes are assigned to writers
* meetings of all available writers are held to "break the story" of an
episode. All the major plot points, the act breaks, the scenes are
decided at this meeting
* individual writer writes draft, submits to Joss for notes, re-writes
- during this process writer is excused from story-breaking meetings
For "Joss" above you can sometimes read "Joss or Marti or other senior
exec".
Now at the time of Selfless, everyone was so busy that there wasn't
anyone left to meet with and the story-breaking meetings consisted of
Drew hanging out on the Firefly set and chatting to Joss in-between
filming (IIRC because of this he's an extra in a crowd scene on
Persephone, I forget the ep). So yes there's a lot of Joss in this
script.
Having said that Drew Goddard is a great writer and deserves his share
of the praise.
> One-sentence summary: An episode for all seasons.
>
> AOQ rating: SUPERLATIVE
>
Be interested to see what you make of ep 7 which I'd put on a par with
this. The again there are episodes I consider better than this that
didn't rate a SUPERLATIVE from you.
If I have one criticism of Selfless it's that it has a kind of "Throw
everything at the wall and see what sticks" attitude - here's what I
wrote in 2002 -
"Its biggest strength was also its biggest weakness. It was a big old
mess of stuff. But on the other hand - if you hated the subtitled old
movie part then don't worry there'll be a cool spider along in a
minute. If you thought the spider-demon was lame then it's ok because
we've got Willow-Xander-Buffy facing some uncomfortable truths. All it
really lacked was Giles. But hey - where would they have put him? "
and
"I think the episode style itself is a metaphor for Anya - the glorious
contradictions, the jarring almost inappropriate changes of pace and
mood. The humour and yet the tragedy. The horror alongside the
endearing. Something just a little off-centre yet endlessly fascinating
and always entertaining. "
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> doesn't even bust out its credits until a few minutes later. All in
> (presumably genuine) Swedish, it continues the tradition of having
they were giving swedish to mouth with the plan to dub into english
but they were so good at bad swedish they used subtitles instead of dubs
it was intended to look like a bad scratchy foreign film
> granted only hints. The later Russian Revolution scene is worth
rather a russian pre-revolution in 1905
(russia was in political turmoil up to the revolution)
> Nitpick Continuity Theatre note: Olaf calls her "Anyanka" in
> "Triangle," despite probably never having known her by that name.
they were co-demons and mightve met up again before he was trapped in the crystal
> if one ignores her slow-moving conscience, Anya couldn't have hidden
> what she'd done for long. It's exciting to see Wil her back on top
if willow hadnt seen anyanka
then they mightve assumed random demon attack instead of vengeance demon
> seems the viewer is meant to conclude that Buffy #2 is the real deal,
> based on the way it's shot, and the notion that Spike makes sense to
> himself but not to the outside world.
so in case it wasnt obvious spike is talking to people who arent there
for example in beneath you chapel spike appears at times to shout at empty space
-i can hear you-
it may be he is talking one of his special friends buffy cannot see
> years, Buffy calls Xander to task for The Lie... but it's not just
that was nice to finally remind xander
that he can also be expedient when it suits him
> has to be another way" suggesting that he sees that, and Buffy's
> convincing and earnest "then please find it." Ye gods, what a
> great scene.
it may be because im more aware of sun direction and daylight
but the continuity bug here always gets me
the conversation in the house probably took place near noon
maybe you can push back to 2pm
and in late october sunset is still about five thirty
and its full night when buffy arrives at the frat house
which means a four to six hour gap between buffy leaving in daylight
and finally arriving at the frat house
> good on it. I don't like having to be reminded of dumb things like
> the end of "Hell's Bells" and the source of the spell in OMWF,
> both of which are part of this episode, but such are the perils of
> serialized TV.
the hard cut from the bride on the balcony to the demon pinned to a wall
is one of my favorites is the series
it reminds of so many children who start with bright fresh dreams
and then tweny years later their life has turned out very different
> Regarding Xander's final exchange with Anya: "Xander - what if
> I'm really nobody?" "Don't be a dope." Such a sweet insult.
anya has failed to be a human and lost her soul
twice
and she has failed to be a demon
twice
maybe this time she will finally get the humanness right
i doubt she will get another chance from dhoffryn
meow arf meow - they are performing horrible experiments in space
major grubert is watching you - beware the bakalite
there can only be one or two - the airtight garage has you neo
John Briggs
>
> (Historical nitpickers
That would be me :-)
> also point out that the Winter Palace wasn't
> razed in the 1905 revolt. That one didn't really take. They had to
> try it again, about a decade later to really toss out the Tsar)
Well, no. In 1905 there was a massacre of peaceful demonstrators by Tsarist
troops at the Winter Palace. The October 1917 "Storming of the Winter
Palace" didn't really happen either (it was mostly invented by Eisenstein*).
[It was the Provisional Government under Kerensky that was tossed out.] My
thesis is that Drew Goddard, who is a great writer but hazy about history,
misunderstood Joss's reference to the Crimean War in "Lessons" (although
that could have been a mistake by Joss) and confused the cruiser "Aurora"
giving the signal for the storming of the Winter Palace in 1917 (as
recreated by Eisenstein) with the massacre on the Odessa Steps (in the
Crimea, in 1905) in Eisenstein's "Battleship Potemkin". (Joss may have
suggested a hommage to Eisenstein.)
*According to the Wikipedia (which may not be wholly reliable on this
point), more people were killed making Eisenstein's film than in the actual
revolution.
--
John Briggs
Stephen Tempest
>Writer: Drew Goddard
>Director: David Solomon
>
>Maybe I should start saying, based on a complete lack of any kind of
>evidence, that Joss was heavily involved in writing this one.
Well, as others have already said he certinaly wrote Anya's song. But
DZG is the man for whom the phrase 'continuity porn' was invented, and
this episode is the classic example.
>The later Russian Revolution scene is worth
>having, to make the theme of Anya's journey a little more blatant
>with the "what else is there?" conversation
Technically, this was the earlier Russian Revolution (the 1905 one)
and not the later 1917 one. :)
>Caulfield is at her
>best here, with the rest of the cast not far behind. It's odd and
>fascinating the way she almost identifies with Buffy as a fellow
>supernatural creature who knows what her job "should" be, and then
>how she turns on the anger once said Slayer actually appears.
As Don said too, it's pretty clear to me that she's attempting to
commit Suicide By Slayer here. She's almost eager when Buffy shows up
with the sword.
>Meanwhile, seems like every plot thread of "Selfless" is heavily
>tied to the past. That amulet that Willow's had for the past three
>years comes into play as she takes it upon herself to have another chat
>with D'Hoffryn. (And keep in mind, Willow + strong magic, especially
>in the name of helping friends + evil impulses = potentially bad, which
>is perhaps why the "shut your whimpering mouth!" scene is in this
>episode. And which makes the callback to "Something Blue" seem
>even more appropriate. "Selfless" is put together so well.)
>Everyone's favorite demon patriarch may be a dick, but he's also
>the one to remind everyone that Anya has her own existence
>independently of everyone else (or should), and should thus be the one
>to decide whether her vengeance can be undone.
As a squeeing Dark Willow fanboy, I love the implication that even
D'Hoffryn now comes at her call and feels he has to pay careful
attention to her desires...
As for him 'being a dick' - this is someone who exploits vulnerable
and victimised young women by giving them supernatural powers and
encouraging them to vent their hatred and desire for vengeance on the
rest of humanity... while encouraging their self-delusion that they're
'bringing justice' and 'helping the helpless' and doing their victims
a _favour_ by carrying out their cruel acts of vengeance.
He may seem suave and polite on the surface, but he's one of the most
depraved and corruptive demons we've ever seen.
Are all Vengeance Demons women? I think it's implied but never
actually stated. (This would assume that 'Floyd' is back-office
support staff rather than an actual Vengeance Demon himself).
>Regarding Xander's final exchange with Anya: "Xander - what if
>I'm really nobody?" "Don't be a dope." Such a sweet insult.
>You know what that reminds me of? It's ROT13ed for those who for
>some reason still haven't seen _Firefly_. Ohg ng gur raq bs
>"Freravgl" (gur rcvfbqr), Fvzba erfcbaqf gb Evire'f tengvghqr naq
>qvforyvrs gung ur'q or noyr gb fnir ure jvgu "lbh'er n qhzzl;"
>clearly not true, but it somehow conveys more affection than a more
>straightforward declaration of love would. Well, same thing here.
And Anya walks off into the night, in a similar way to the way she did
in 'Harsh Light of Day'.
>AOQ rating: SUPERLATIVE
I think my immediate reaction on scrolling down to here was "Bloody
hell!" I thought the Superlative rating was just a theoretical
possibility, never expected to actually see one...
Stephen
jil...@hotmail.com
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
> anya has failed to be a human and lost her soul
> twice
> and she has failed to be a demon
> twice
Actually, you're assuming she lost her soul. We only know that human
soul-loss is involved in becoming a vampire. Even poor Ben was not
going to lose his soul. He was just going to become removed from all
the pain and suffering. Watching it from above... like normal humans
are mere ants.
John Briggs
>
> After setting things up, act one begins with an extended flashback and
> doesn't even bust out its credits until a few minutes later. All in
> (presumably genuine) Swedish
Sort of. But in 880 (or thereabouts) it should have been Old Norse.
--
John Briggs
Iago
(snip)
> But what? No "TISBILA?" Well, here's one:
>
> Anya singing: "Mrs. Anya Lame-Ass-Made-Up-Middle-Name Harris..."
>
>
Just a small point, for which I feel eternally pedantic:
"Mrs. Anya Lame-Ass-Made-Up-MAIDEN-Name Harris", surely?
Indeed, she had two of them, AIR.
alphakitten
> 5) "Selfless" - SUPERLATIVE]
>
Indeed, that's the word for it.
~Angel
yamsham
"Iago" <gregory...@googlesmailprovider.com> wrote in message
news:NfGdnZwbr6u...@bt.com...
I knew I'd screw that up.
Scythe Matters
Bah! Grade inflation! ;-)
(It's a terrific episode, no doubt. Unquestionably excellent. But this
more than anything demonstrates that you should go back and re-evaluate
the earlier seasons, because if this is superlative -- even by reading
your own description that leads to the rating -- then so are several
other episodes from your more suspicious and overcautious youth.)
Just to re-amplify something that ties into our "Help" discussion:
---
BUFFY
It is always different! It's always complicated. And at some point,
someone has to draw the line, and that is always going to be me. You get
down on me for cutting myself off, but in the end the slayer is always
cut off. There's no mystical guidebook. No all-knowing council. Human
rules don't apply. There's only me. I am the law.
---
And:
---
D'HOFFRYN
Isn't that just like a slayer. Solving all her problems by sticking
things with sharp objects.
---
Off that topic, it's really the incredible character moments -- and
incisiveness -- that make this episode so terrific. (Along with what
Shuggie noted: this episode is very much like Anya herself.) Here's one
that often gets overlooked:
---
ANYA
Xander, you've always seen what you wanted to.
---
Along with the earlier verbal thrashing, this has been a rough day for
Xander's self-image.
Espen Schjønberg
> In article <12gkhm2...@corp.supernews.com>,
> "yamsham" <yam...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:1158299151.2...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>>>threads.
>>>
>>>
>>>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>>>Season Seven, Episode 5: "Selfless"
>>>(or "Heartless")
>>>Writer: Drew Goddard
>>>Director: David Solomon
>>>
>>>After setting things up, act one begins with an extended flashback and
>>>doesn't even bust out its credits until a few minutes later. All in
>>>(presumably genuine) Swedish
>>
>>Well, I can't vouch for the pronunciation, but apparently they learned their
>>lines phonetically.
>
>
> The pronunciation is good enough that actual Swedish speakers can
> understand it, but apparently their accents are horrible.
As I have said before: I speak Norwegian as my first language. Swedish
and Norwegian is rather close, and I could fake Swedish (except that
would make the swedes being happy about understanding Norwegian, cause
they don't understand as much as they think.) I think I can claim to
understand almost every word of Swedish.
As I have said before: the "Swedish" is so bad, it tends to sound more
like Norwegian. I think it is something about the tone. (the song is
very important in this languages, I guess you have noticed the Swedish
Chief in the Muppet show.)
This is with very few exceptions, biggest exception is the line "it's
the biggest troll I have ever seen!" which sounds (to me) like more or
less perfect Swedish. I think this is the only sentence without fill-in.
Apart from that: Olaf is hilarious. He tends to remember only the first
and last word of every line he has, and apart from that, he mostly just
makes sounds. But those sounds basically sounds like Swedish or
Norwegian(with a Norwegian song), so it is very very amusing sounds. Aud
sounds Norwegian, and she also remember a much higher proportion of her
words.
It would have amusing, though, to hear what a swede thought about this...
Of course, they should have used Old Norse, and the closest living
language to that today is Icelandic, but thats something else.
OK, that was the language comment.
About the episode: I have no words. I was unspoiled, and then I received
this reward for not having given up on Buffy.
--
Espen
rrh...@acme.com
John Briggs wrote:
> Don Sample wrote:
> >
> > (Historical nitpickers
>
> That would be me :-)
>
> > also point out that the Winter Palace wasn't
> > razed in the 1905 revolt. That one didn't really take. They had to
> > try it again, about a decade later to really toss out the Tsar)
>
> Well, no. In 1905 there was a massacre of peaceful demonstrators by Tsarist
> troops at the Winter Palace. The October 1917 "Storming of the Winter
> Palace" didn't really happen either (it was mostly invented by Eisenstein*).
> [It was the Provisional Government under Kerensky that was tossed out.] My
> thesis is that Drew Goddard, who is a great writer but hazy about history,
> misunderstood Joss's reference to the Crimean War in "Lessons" (although
> that could have been a mistake by Joss) and confused the cruiser "Aurora"
> giving the signal for the storming of the Winter Palace in 1917 (as
> recreated by Eisenstein) with the massacre on the Odessa Steps (in the
> Crimea, in 1905) in Eisenstein's "Battleship Potemkin". (Joss may have
> suggested a hommage to Eisenstein.)
I watched Battleship Potemkin recently. It is an interesting film.
Some of this is of the "he invented this technique which everyone uses
today, but this was the first time!" sort, which really is just for
film history buffs (which I am not). But it is very interesting as a
period piece: authentic Soviet propaganda, and well done propaganda at
that. It is worth renting for anyone interested in 20th century
history.
Richard R. Hershberger
yamsham
"Espen Schjønberg" <ess...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:eeeauo$e8j$1...@readme.uio.no...
> Apart from that: Olaf is hilarious. He tends to remember only the first
> and last word of every line he has, and apart from that, he mostly just
> makes sounds. But those sounds basically sounds like Swedish or
> Norwegian(with a Norwegian song), so it is very very amusing sounds. Aud
> sounds Norwegian, and she also remember a much higher proportion of her
> words.
Okay, knowing nothing about Swedish or Norwegian, that's what I thought. To
me, Aud's words sound like they actually might be words, but Olaf sounds
like he's got a mouth full of marbles.
Arbitrar Of Quality
Rincewind wrote:
> Just out of curiosity: have you ever given such a high rating to any other
> episode of BtVS or AtS (I started reading your reviews when you were already
> at the end of S4, so I don't know about the earlier seasons).
This is indeed the very first AOQ SUPERLATIVE rating. That being said,
though, there's a bit of a rating discrepancy, since there are a couple
that I think I probably underrated. I'll have to watch them again
before I'm sure, but my memory tells me that "Innocence" and "Five By
Five" are both (slightly) better than "Selfless."
-AOQ
drifter
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> writes:
> Are all Vengeance Demons women? I think it's implied but never
> actually stated. (This would assume that 'Floyd' is back-office
> support staff rather than an actual Vengeance Demon himself).
A demon appears in smoke and a flash of light.
Demon: Behold me and tremble! For I am the Vengeance Demon
LLOYD!!
Human: Lloyd? Are you serious? Really?
Demon: Not scary enough? How about Melvin? No? Oh, Irving!
Wait, wait, how about Dilbert? "The Vengeance Demon DILBERT!"
Yeah! That's got it!
Human: Are you sure you're not just support staff?
>> AOQ rating: SUPERLATIVE
>
> I think my immediate reaction on scrolling down to here was "Bloody
> hell!" I thought the Superlative rating was just a theoretical
> possibility, never expected to actually see one...
Like a leprechaun.
--
Kel
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own."
vague disclaimer
"John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
The sound in the background is William of Ockham turning in his grave.
vague disclaimer
"shuggie" <shu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The rough* working process in ME was:
>
> * Joss comes up with major seasonal arc story
> * writers pitch ideas for individual episodes
> * episodes are assigned to writers
> * meetings of all available writers are held to "break the story" of an
> episode. All the major plot points, the act breaks, the scenes are
> decided at this meeting
> * individual writer writes draft, submits to Joss for notes, re-writes
> - during this process writer is excused from story-breaking meetings
>
> For "Joss" above you can sometimes read "Joss or Marti or other senior
> exec".
>
> Now at the time of Selfless, everyone was so busy that there wasn't
> anyone left to meet with and the story-breaking meetings consisted of
> Drew hanging out on the Firefly set and chatting to Joss in-between
> filming (IIRC because of this he's an extra in a crowd scene on
> Persephone, I forget the ep). So yes there's a lot of Joss in this
> script.
>
> Having said that Drew Goddard is a great writer and deserves his share
> of the prais
If I recall correctly there was an additional complication of have to
shoot around Abraham Benrubi's availability.
George W Harris
:> One of the episode's most unorthodox moments comes when Anya is
:> abruptly stabbed through the heart to close act three. My eyes popped
:> wide open there.
:
:This btw is the 'offical' (metaphorical) death of the vengeance demon
:Anyanka.
I would think it was the moment in act four, when
she's lying on the floor and Buffy's about to stab her again
but Xander tackles Buffy. That, right then, is when she
gave up.
--
Real men don't need macho posturing to bolster their egos.
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.
George W Harris
<ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
:>The later Russian Revolution scene is worth
:>having, to make the theme of Anya's journey a little more blatant
:>with the "what else is there?" conversation
:
:Technically, this was the earlier Russian Revolution (the 1905 one)
:and not the later 1917 one. :)
What Lenin reputedly called 'The Great Dress Rehearsal'.
--
Never give a loaded gun to a woman in labor.
George W Harris
<john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
:*According to the Wikipedia (which may not be wholly reliable on this
:point),
Just on *that* point?
--
"Intelligence is too complex to capture in a single number." -Alfred Binet
George W Harris
wrote:
:BUFFY
:It is always different! It's always complicated. And at some point,
:someone has to draw the line, and that is always going to be me. You get
:down on me for cutting myself off, but in the end the slayer is always
:cut off. There's no mystical guidebook. No all-knowing council. Human
:rules don't apply. There's only me. I am the law.
:
:---
:
:And:
:
:---
:
:D'HOFFRYN
:Isn't that just like a slayer. Solving all her problems by sticking
:things with sharp objects.
:
:---
From Doppelgangland:
ANYA
Vampires - always thinking with their teeth.
Just thought that went well there.
--
"It is always a simple matter to drag people along whether it is a
democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist
dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the
bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them
they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of
patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every
country."
-Hermann Goering
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 5: "Selfless"
> (or "Heartless")
> Writer: Drew Goddard
> Director: David Solomon
. Okay, I have two problems with Selfless, one big and one small. I'll
discuss the small one below. The big one is the way Anya's personality
and manner are shown to be more or less unchanging from 880 to 2002. I
just don't like it. Until Selfless, it had always been assumed that
Anya's little quirks, her tactlessness and ignorance of human customs and
taboos, are the result of forgetting human ways during her thousand years
as a demon. But now we learn that pre-demon Aud was just the same, with
her irksome questions and literal interpretations and so on. That makes
her a lot less likeable to me. Being tactless because you're an ex-demon
still learning human ways is amusing; being tactless because you're just
naturally insensitive is rather less amusing. This only bothered me a
little when I first saw the episode, but the more I thought about it the
more annoying it got, until I finally decided to view the Sjornjost scenes
strictly as humor and go back to assuming that Anya's personality quirks
were the result of her demon days. I think I'd be happier if A. had
different personality traits in each flashback, just as she had different
economic philosophies and attitudes towards bunnies, and only her habit of
seeking her identity in others remains constant.
(I wonder if old Aud was as confused by death as Anya was in The Body?)
> meats!" And so on and on and on. It also momentarily seems like
> we'll get an explanation for the ubiquitous rabbit jokes, but are
> granted only hints.
Oh, yeah. This isn't the small problem mentioned above, but it does anger
me. How can they tease like that, dangling the hope of a bunny
explanation and then snatching it away? Bastards.
> The later Russian Revolution scene is worth
> having, to make the theme of Anya's journey a little more blatant
> with the "what else is there?" conversation, and to emphasize the
> depths of bloodiness in her past. Plus seeing that she wasn't always
> such a fan of capitalism.
I'm mildly impressed that Goddard knew about the Russian Revolution of
1905, but I can't resist pointing out that there were no massacres of the
upper classes or widespread fighting in St. Petersburg. (There was a fair
amount of bloodshed in Moscow and other areas, though.) Maybe Anyanka and
Halfrek's massacre was blamed on wild dogs (who were smoking), and there
just happened to be a bonfire outside.
> can say she appeared). Spike's cameo is an interesting little scene,
> at least. Turning to Buffy for someone to talk to about his insanity
> is appropriate both from character and "let's drawing parallels
> with last year!!" perspectives. And before the reveal of the
> fake-out, I actually did wonder whether she was going nuts with the
> sympathy and forgiveness as a response to the end of "Help." Even
> afterward, it's unclear whether either Buffy was real, although it
> seems the viewer is meant to conclude that Buffy #2 is the real deal,
> based on the way it's shot, and the notion that Spike makes sense to
> himself but not to the outside world.
I think you're interpreting it the right way. But that leaves the
question, is the first, more sympathetic Buffy just Spike's fantasy, or
something external showing him what he wants to see, or something external
showing him what *it* wants him to see?
> So there's a bout of spider-killing, itself an enjoyable battle,
> which leads into one of those ever-popular scenes in which our friends
> get to sit around yelling at each other. And it just may be the best
> one yet.
Yes, this is a very good one, for all the reasons you mention. And yet,
it's also where we come to my smaller problem with Selfless. It's the way
The Lie is handled. Now, I do give them a lot of credit for bringing it
up. Not only am I an avid consumer of continuity porn, but The Lie is
perhaps the most important past incident that hadn't been brought back up
yet. And this is certainly the perfect time for it to come up. But the
*way* they do it bugs me. They play it as if Buffy and Willow still don't
realize that Xander had lied, and I find that frankly unbelievable. Even
if you assume that Buffy, Willow and Xander had never once talked about it
amongst themselves (unlikely but possible), Buffy should have suspected it
long before now. Why, after all, would Willow tell Buffy to kick Angel's
ass if she was going to do the soul restoration spell? It's a pretty
glaring inconsistency. (It also just doesn't sound like Willow.) And we
can be sure Buffy has done a lot of brooding about that day, both in the
summer after Becoming and the years since. I find it impossible to
believe that she *never* realized Xander lied. The very idea never even
occurred to me until Selfless aired, and it's never sat right with me
since then. But I don't want to make too much of it -- this reference was
just one small part of a great scene. And it's a perfect example of the
group's internal fights being conflicts between two partial truths rather
than simply between right and wrong. As Goddard or Solomon says in the
commmentary, you listen to them and find yourself agreeing with both sides
simultaneously.
> Things then travel to Anya's side, and Xander's continued attempt
> to get through to her with his world-saving mouth. Caulfield is at her
> best here, with the rest of the cast not far behind.
And here's a good place to point out that while EC is always praised for
her comedic acting, she can do the drama pretty well too.
> If anyone cares, I didn't notice the mustard until I saw it on the
> transcript, but that's pretty funny. And speaking of dumb but funny,
> "oh, breathtaking. It's like somebody slaughtered an Abercrombie &
> Fitch catalog."
Is this the TIRSBILA section? I'd mention Dawn's lecture to Willow.
She's clearly learned high school's big lesson, conformity, pretty well.
Also, Olaf's line about trolls: "The mere thought of them makes me bend at
the knee and flex!" And Willow and the professor: "You turned it around
and aced all your finals like ... boom. Magic." "Heh, heh, similar to,
but...."
Two other bits I liked: the Poe reference ("Scream Montressor all you
like, pet"), and the return to one of BtVS's greatest and truest themes,
Frats Are Evil. Oh, and speaking of the evil fratheads, note that Anya
says "I wanna take it back," echoing the girl in the closet.
> AOQ rating: SUPERLATIVE
Wow.
It's a very good episode, but the depiction of pre-demon Aud as being just
like post-demon Anya (my big problem above) bugs me too much to call it
Excellent. I'll say Good.
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> (Historical nitpickers also point out that the Winter Palace wasn't
> razed in the 1905 revolt. That one didn't really take. They had to try
> it again, about a decade later to really toss out the Tsar)
I'll nitpick even further and point out that the Winter Palace wasn't
razed in 1917 either. It stands (as a museum) to this day. And while I'm
at it, the famous "storming" of the Winter Palace is pretty much a myth.
In reality, a bunch of pro-Bolshevik troops just walked to the palace,
whose defenders gave up with little or no resistance, and occupied it.
Not very dramatic.
Elisi
Not according to the writer.
William George Ferguson
>In article <1158299151.2...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>> threads.
>>
>>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Seven, Episode 5: "Selfless"
>> (or "Heartless")
>> Writer: Drew Goddard
>> Director: David Solomon
>>
>> Maybe I should start saying, based on a complete lack of any kind of
>> evidence, that Joss was heavily involved in writing this one.
>
>Drew Goddard talks about visiting Joss on the Firefly set, to show him a
>draft of the script, and telling him, "It would be cool if we could do a
>flashback to the musical. Can you write a song?" and Joss telling him
>he had too many other things he had to do, and there was no way he'd
>have the time to do that, and then showing up the next day with the song
>written.
More fun follow up. They were shooting the station scene of The Train Job
when Goddard brought the first draft to blue pencil, and Goddard got
co-opted into being an extra (per the Firefly commentary track, pretty much
everone who was on the set that day got co-opted into being an extra).
>> Nitpick Continuity Theatre note: Olaf calls her "Anyanka" in
>> "Triangle," despite probably never having known her by that name.
>
>Maybe she dropped by to torment him occasionally over the next couple of
>decades, so he got to know her by her new name. (How long do trolls
>live, anyway?)
Well, that one at least eleven hundred and twenty three years (and has no
trouble getting a frickin' beer).
>Another nitpicky continuity thing though: They screwed up the dates
>again. It should have been about 900AD, not 880. "I'm eleven hundred
>and twenty years old. Just give me a frickin' beer!" makes 880 the year
>Anya was born.
Maybe vengeance demons, like vampires, figure their age from when they were
turned, not when they born as humans.
>> And of
>> course stuck in there is a little reminder of how thin the line is
>> between the fun, cuddly character she wants to be and the contemptuous
>> and violent individual that's also part of whom she is.
>
>Continuity whores also notice that the girl in the closet was one of the
>girls in Willow's sociology class back in last year's "Life Serial."
>One thing about that fight: Like Faith in "Five by Five," I think Anya
>is trying to commit suicide here. She's trying to make Buffy kill her.
>She is in her stronger, demon form, while Buffy has the sword, and keeps
>trying to goad Buffy into killing her. When she gets the sword, she
>switches back to being Anya, with merely human strength, when she
>attacks Buffy.
>
>Buffy has also figured this out. When she pinned Anya to the wall with
>the sword, she knew she hadn't killed her. Her whole attitude while
>Anya is unconscious isn't "Oh my god! I just killed a friend!" It's
>more "Hurry up and wake up already, I haven't got all day!"
Just left that in so I could say 'AOL'.
>> I don't like having to be reminded of dumb things like ...
>> the source of the spell in OMWF,
>
>And yet, even with this reminder, some people still refuse to accept
>that Xander really did it.
Three things:
Larry lives!
So does Tara!
Pbbbbbbbbbt :)
>> Everyone's favorite demon patriarch may be a dick, but he's also
>> the one to remind everyone that Anya has her own existence
>> independently of everyone else (or should), and should thus be the one
>> to decide whether her vengeance can be undone.
>
>And we learn that Vengeance Demons have cubicals, gather around water
>coolers to discuss the latest in vengeance, and the Flaying of Warren
>Mears has been immortalized on Lloyd's cubical wall.
>
>
>> So...
>>
>> One-sentence summary: An episode for all seasons.
>>
>> AOQ rating: SUPERLATIVE
>
>Wow. I knew that you had a "SUPERLATIVE" rating that you reserved for
>extra special episodes, and I agree that this was a strong one, but I'm
>surprised that you gave it out for this one, after some of the episodes
>that you merely ranked as "Excellent."
You didn't do any TIRSBILAs
"Oh, no, don't feel bad. I, uh, I don't talk to people much. I mean, I talk
to them, but they don't talk to me. Except to say that your questions are
irksome, and perhaps you should take your furs and your literal
interpretations to the other side of the river."
There had been much speculation on how Anya's 1100 years as a vengeance
demon had disconnected her from humanity. Here we find that she was like
that to begin with, even as a human.
--
... and my sister is a vampire slayer, her best friend is a witch who
went bonkers and tried to destroy the world, um, I actually used to be
a little ball of energy until about two years ago when some monks
changed the past and made me Buffy's sister and for some reason, a big
klepto. My best friends are Leticia Jones, who moved to San Diego
because this town is evil, and a floppy eared demon named Clem.
(Dawn's fantasy of her intro speech in "Lessons", from the shooting script)
Elisi
You know that never bothered me. She was a demon for _1100 years_!
Darla, after 400, could not even remember her own original name, and
identified far stronger with vampires than humans. Also, the flashbacks
showed very clearly that she was never accepted by the other villagers,
and that her contact with Xander and the Scoobies was the first time
she was ever accepted by people, and thus able to form bonds with them.
Much like Angel had never loved anyone until Buffy, which was one
reason why their relationship was so very intense.
What we see here is that Anya was _always_ the outsider, even when
human.
George W Harris
:> :This btw is the 'offical' (metaphorical) death of the vengeance demon
:> :Anyanka.
:>
:> I would think it was the moment in act four, when
:> she's lying on the floor and Buffy's about to stab her again
:> but Xander tackles Buffy. That, right then, is when she
:> gave up.
:> --
:> Real men don't need macho posturing to bolster their egos.
:>
:> George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.
:
:Not according to the writer.
Actually, it's kind of both. The first is the
metaphorical death of the vengeance demon. The
second is Anya accepting that she deserves death.
--
/bud...@nirvana.net/h:k
Ari
> Much like Angel had never loved anyone until Buffy, which was one
> reason why their relationship was so very intense.
Meh. In retrospect his twu wuv for Buffy is so obviously All. About.
Darla anyway and no one's going to convince me otherwise. :P
re: AOQ's review. Selfess getting a SUPERLATIVE? Fucking A! No
disagreeing on that front. That last scene between Anya/Xander KILLS
me. Pitch perfect.
>Ohg ng gur raq bs "Freravgl" (gur rcvfbqr), Fvzba erfcbaqf gb Evire'f tengvghqr
>naq qvforyvrs gung ur'q or noyr gb fnir ure jvgu "lbh'er n qhzzl;"
>clearly not true, but it somehow conveys more affection than a more
>straightforward declaration of love would. Well, same thing here.
Yep, exactly.
Don Sample
vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
The only person I heard whose availability they had to shoot around was
Kali Rocha who played Halfrek. She was doing a play in England. They
flew her to LA, and did all of her scenes for "Lessons" and "Selfless"
in one or two days, and then flew her back.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Don Sample
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> Yes, this is a very good one, for all the reasons you mention. And yet,
> it's also where we come to my smaller problem with Selfless. It's the way
> The Lie is handled. Now, I do give them a lot of credit for bringing it
> up. Not only am I an avid consumer of continuity porn, but The Lie is
> perhaps the most important past incident that hadn't been brought back up
> yet. And this is certainly the perfect time for it to come up. But the
> *way* they do it bugs me. They play it as if Buffy and Willow still don't
> realize that Xander had lied, and I find that frankly unbelievable.
Unlike some fans, the writers have never thought that The Lie was that
big a deal. All of these characters have much more important things
going on in their lives. Why should Buffy spend any time thinking about
three words Xander spoke to her, half an hour before the most traumatic
event of the first 18 years of her life?
Michael Ikeda
news:dsample-E30680...@news.giganews.com:
> In article
> <1158299151.2...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
>> review threads.
>>
>>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Seven, Episode 5: "Selfless"
>> (or "Heartless")
>> Writer: Drew Goddard
>> Director: David Solomon
>>
>
> (Historical nitpickers also point out that the Winter Palace
> wasn't razed in the 1905 revolt. That one didn't really take.
> They had to try it again, about a decade later to really toss
> out the Tsar)
Although it should be noted that Halfrek doesn't say that the Winter
Palace actually was razed. She says "I hear they're going to ...".
Which could just mean that there's a rumor going around.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Malsperanza
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 5: "Selfless"
> After setting things up, act one begins with an extended flashback and
> doesn't even bust out its credits until a few minutes later.
My one complaint with this episode is the length of the flashback(s).
It's basically a sight gag with a little background info on Anya
sprinkled in, and there's more of it than we really need. The jokes
were funny, but too extended for my taste.
> All in
> (presumably genuine) Swedish
Others have commented on the Swedish and the fact that it ought to have
been Old Norse or Icelandic. I'll just note that in s1 there is an
excruciating scene of monks in Cortona, Italy in the 15th century
(erroneously referred to as the "Dark Ages") who are speaking terrible
Italian. I can see that the bad Swedish in this episode was intentional
and played for laughs--a kind of in-joke about dubbing on TV--but what
was Joss's excuse back in s1?
snippage
> It also momentarily seems like
> we'll get an explanation for the ubiquitous rabbit jokes, but are
> granted only hints.
I like that. I get tired of TV series in their late years trying to go
back and fill in unanswered questions--usually the answers are not so
imaginative. Better, IMO, to provide a hint of why Anya is bunnyphobic,
and then let us put our own 2 + 2s together.
> Plus seeing that she wasn't always
> such a fan of capitalism.
Good ol Anya: dogmatic and doctrinaire regardless of what dogma she has
adopted. I thought that was hilarious, but it also reminds us that this
has also been her approach to becoming human: She adopted humanity as a
doctrine, and went into it full-tilt, but not necessarily understanding
that it wasn't just a set of rules and precepts. By the end of this
episode perhaps she finally does.
> Willow, kinda standing outside the center of the action, triggers a few
> of its central plot points. The first comes with her interactions with
> Anya, quickly figuring out that the latter isn't a good liar. Even
> if one ignores her slow-moving conscience, Anya couldn't have hidden
> what she'd done for long. It's exciting to see Wil her back on top
> of things, with the casual way she deflects the spider attack.
I loved that moment, both because it was so quick and because it showed
just how adept Willow is. The "protect" command is almost casual, like
Buffy later when she tosses an axe into the tree and slays the spider.
One more signal that our Scoobies aren't kids anymore.
> I feel a little strange giving fashion updates, but hey, I noticed
> these things: first, Willow's dressing the way Buffy might have in
> the show's early days, and second, the workmanlike jeans-and-T-shirt
> look is working well for Xander.
Finally! And this is the episode (I think) where Buffy finally begins
wearing badass black, and looking damn good in it. One of a number of
little habits she seems to have picked up from Spike.
> This episode is about all of the four main Scoobies, and not so much
> anyone else (Trachtenberg's appearance is more or less just so they
> can say she appeared). Spike's cameo is an interesting little scene,
> at least. Turning to Buffy for someone to talk to about his insanity
> is appropriate both from character and "let's drawing parallels
> with last year!!" perspectives. And before the reveal of the
> fake-out, I actually did wonder whether she was going nuts with the
> sympathy and forgiveness as a response to the end of "Help."
Such a relief to realize that the writers had not betrayed her
character by making her so easily fall for Spike again. And at the same
time, how poignant to see the gap between what Spike longs for and what
he gets (and knows he deserves) from her. Whether Buffy #1 is his own
fantasy or a false image inserted in his brain by his craziness (or by
some other agency), it is clearly the expression of his need and
desire. It's also a self-portrait: Spike thinks he's more sane than he
really is at this point.
> Even afterward, it's unclear whether either Buffy was real, although it
> seems the viewer is meant to conclude that Buffy #2 is the real deal,
> based on the way it's shot, and the notion that Spike makes sense to
> himself but not to the outside world.
S7 has a series of moments in where we see other people seeing or
imagining Buffy either as they'd like her to be or as they think she
is. She is growing slightly more remote from us, I think, less
accessible, harder to read and interpret.
> So there's a bout of spider-killing, itself an enjoyable battle,
> which leads into one of those ever-popular scenes in which our friends
> get to sit around yelling at each other. And it just may be the best
> one yet.
This is one of those scenes that makes s7 so exciting to me. I don't
think any other season quite does it like this: with all the components
in place, and some good, tight writing, so that a scene of talk (the
kind that used to happen around the library table or the table in the
Magic Box) about a difficult situation suddenly takes a leap upward
into something much larger, much more metaphysical, with huge scope.
The culmination, for me, is the moment when Buffy declares:
"I *am* the law."
That's a pretty shocking statement. Has she ever made that claim so
clearly before? And... is it really true? No one challenges or disputes
it, but it's pretty stunning. Moses on Mt. Sinai.
snipp
> Caulfield is at her
> best here, with the rest of the cast not far behind. It's odd and
> fascinating the way she almost identifies with Buffy as a fellow
> supernatural creature
Another small sign that Buffy has taken a quiet but significant step
outside the realm of the real or the realm of the human. Perhaps we
should revisit Spike's declaration in s6 that she "came back wrong."
Not "wrong," maybe, but something other than purely human, perhaps.
> One of the episode's most unorthodox moments comes when Anya is
> abruptly stabbed through the heart to close act three. My eyes popped
> wide open there. And then act four spends like three minutes taking us
> back to Sunnydale, 2001. Can't say I saw that coming. It's
> strange and maybe gimmicky, but given that it would work so well as
> either a eulogy or a restatement of theme en route to her surviving,
> good on it. I don't like having to be reminded of dumb things like
> the end of "Hell's Bells" and the source of the spell in OMWF,
> both of which are part of this episode, but such are the perils of
> serialized TV.
Well, and it gives the show a chance to revisit the idea of the musical
and satirize it a little. The tone of Anya's song is pure "West Side
Story," from the swish of her full-skirted dress to the leaning on
balconies, to the swoony way she dreams of being a Mrs. It places all
her hopes and dreams of humanhood squarely in the realm of impossible
fantasy and arch-artifice. So it's both genuinely sad and almost
embarrassingly foolish. And I love the jump-cut that ends it so
harshly.
snip
> Everyone's favorite demon patriarch may be a dick, but he's also
> the one to remind everyone that Anya has her own existence
> independently of everyone else (or should), and should thus be the one
> to decide whether her vengeance can be undone.
I love the way D'Hoffryn's character works in this scene. We were just
beginning to like him a little too well. One is reminded of those
moments in the past when Spike said, "Hel-LOoo, Evol" or "VAMpire" to
explain his bad behavior. Only this time, the laugh is on us. Whether
or not we like Hallie (and who does, really? She's so grating), her
death is as crude an act as any on the show: abrupt, unheralded, and
fast.
~Mal
Malsperanza
Don Sample wrote:
> And we learn that Vengeance Demons have cubicals, gather around water
> coolers to discuss the latest in vengeance
As if we didn't know already. They are the ones who insist on filling
out quarterly Performance Reviews.
~Mal
Malsperanza
Scythe Matters wrote:
> ANYA
> Xander, you've always seen what you wanted to.
Bar bs n jubyr frevrf bs erznexf nobhg Knaqre'f "frrvat" naq uvf rlrf
gung erphe guebhtubhg gur f7 rcvfbqrf. Nyzbfg rirel rcvfbqr unf ng
yrnfg bar, fbzrgvzrf zber.
~Mal
Ari
>And at the same time, how poignant to see the gap between what
>Spike longs for and what he gets (and knows he deserves) from her.
I'm not even going to begin to speculate on what soul having Spike does
or does not deserve, but I don't see Buffy's treatment of him as some
sort of punishment. It's not like she was yelling at him about what a
worthless shit she thinks he is (gung jvyy pbzr yngre), she's
frustrated because she wants him to snap out of it already. So what
if's she's not nice about it? She's down there because she does give a
damn.
kim
news:12gkhap...@news.supernews.com...
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1158299151.2...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > threads.
> >
> >
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Seven, Episode 5: "Selfless"
>
>
> AOQ, you're forgiven everything. Even Hell's Bells. This is my favorite
> episode of the season.
>
> It's too late for me to really respond to this, but I thought I'd mention
> that according to the commentary, the original idea had been to dub badly
> (deliberately badly) the Aud scenes. The Swedish was written just to have
> something for them to mouth, and they were told not to worry too much
about
> getting it right. But the actors went ahead and learned the lines anyway
> and did what you saw, which ended up better than the dubbed idea.
I presume that was the commentators idea of a joke. Playing the european DVD
version with scandinavian subtitles demonstrates that the actor playing Olaf
learned about half his lines while Emma Caulfield just made up a load of
gibberish as she went along.
(kim)
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> version with scandinavian subtitles demonstrates that the actor playing Olaf
> learned about half his lines while Emma Caulfield just made up a load of
> gibberish as she went along.
a lot of times tv will subtitled native english speakers
if they areny speaking american received or queens standard
meow arf meow - they are performing horrible experiments in space
major grubert is watching you - beware the bakalite
there can only be one or two - the airtight garage has you neo
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
gur taney qrzba jnf xvyyrq ol univat vgf rlrf tberq
yngre knaqre gryyf gur cbgragvnyf gb tb nsgre guvatf yvxr rlrf
gurerf nybg rlr gnyx hc gb gur vapvqrag
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
or they have an arrangement equivalent to cubicals
and that is what dhoffryn translated it into
Malsperanza
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
> In article <1158365159....@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>,
> "Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Scythe Matters wrote:
> >
> > > ANYA
> > > Xander, you've always seen what you wanted to.
> >
> > Bar bs n jubyr frevrf bs erznexf nobhg Knaqre'f "frrvat" naq uvf rlrf
> > gung erphe guebhtubhg gur f7 rcvfbqrf. Nyzbfg rirel rcvfbqr unf ng
> > yrnfg bar, fbzrgvzrf zber.
>
> gur taney qrzba jnf xvyyrq ol univat vgf rlrf tberq
> yngre knaqre gryyf gur cbgragvnyf gb tb nsgre guvatf yvxr rlrf
>
> gurerf nybg rlr gnyx hc gb gur vapvqrag
Fcrpvsvpnyyl gurer'f n frevrf bs ersreraprf gb Knaqre frrvat jryy, be
frrvat guvatf jebat, be orvat oyvaq gb pregnva vffhrf, rgp. V zrnag gb
abgr gurz, ohg arire qvq...
~Mal
Malsperanza
I meant: what Spike *thinks* he deserves--which he actually discusses.
Ack... some of this is spoilery, so I'll wait to respond further.
Buffy's treatment of him is anything but punishment--it's incredibly
compassionate. There's a big divide between "Buffy #1" (which Spike
either imagines or is made to imagine) and Buffy #2, who is the actual
Buffy. Buffy #1 is the fantasy Romance!Buffy beloved of many Spuffy
shippers, and apparently longed for by Spike. Buffy #2 is the person
who actually saves his life by getting him out of the basement and away
from the poisonous influence of the Hellmouth. And does it by being
practical and straightforward, not sentimental and cuddly. Sorry if I
wasn't clear on that.
So one thing the scene reveals is that Spike *does* fantasize about a
loving, nurturing, romantic (not sexual) Buffy who will rescue and love
him. That's quite different from what he tells her, no? So we see
inside his head, and though he's mad as a hatter at the moment, this is
a little piece of inner truth. Whatever Buffy may feel, Spike is still
absolutely in love and looking for rescue. But in his more lucid
moments he makes it clear that he does not think he deserves her help.
~Mal
kim
news:qd6mg2980uecrvpjc...@4ax.com...
> On 15 Sep 2006 11:28:49 -0700, "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> :> :This btw is the 'offical' (metaphorical) death of the vengeance demon
> :> :Anyanka.
> :>
> :> I would think it was the moment in act four, when
> :> she's lying on the floor and Buffy's about to stab her again
> :> but Xander tackles Buffy. That, right then, is when she
> :> gave up.
> :> --
> :> Real men don't need macho posturing to bolster their egos.
> :>
> :> George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an
'i'.
> :
> :Not according to the writer.
>
> Actually, it's kind of both. The first is the
> metaphorical death of the vengeance demon. The
> second is Anya accepting that she deserves death.
So what is it exactly that Anya has supposed to have done "wrong"? I know
she slaughtered the frat house boys but they deserved it just as Warren
deserved to be flayed alive.
(kim)
Henry Hartmann
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 5: "Selfless"
> Writer: Drew Goddard
> Director: David Solomon
>
> evidence, that Joss was heavily involved in writing this one.
>
> (presumably genuine) Swedish, it continues the tradition of having
> Olaf, and everyone associated with him, talk in flowery and verbose
> language. I was certainly entertained. Although these sequences are
> pleasant, and give some texture to the central story of Audyanka's
> self-perceived lack of identity, they do seem a bit heavy on the
> fun:depth ratio considering how much screen time they eat up. That's
> not too much of a complaint though; nothing wrong with relaxing and
> enjoying the "goods and services" mention, and logic that is
> "insane and happenstance, like that of a troll." And "the troll
> is doing an Olaf impersonation! Hit him with fruits and various
> meats!" And so on and on and on. It also momentarily seems like
> we'll get an explanation for the ubiquitous rabbit jokes, but are
> having, to make the theme of Anya's journey a little more blatant
> with the "what else is there?" conversation, and to emphasize the
> such a fan of capitalism. Also worth noting that the second chunk of
> the Scandinavian story finally solves one of things I'd been
> wondering about (and thought of as a plot hole) - how Aud turned Olaf
> into a troll even though vengeance demons can't invoke vengeance on
> behalf of themselves. Magic. Like Willow (almost) in "Wild At
> Heart." Okay.
>
> Nitpick Continuity Theatre note: Olaf calls her "Anyanka" in
> "Triangle," despite probably never having known her by that name.
>
> Universal Translator doing the work for us?
>
> Willow, kinda standing outside the center of the action, triggers a few
> of its central plot points. The first comes with her interactions with
> Anya, quickly figuring out that the latter isn't a good liar. Even
> if one ignores her slow-moving conscience, Anya couldn't have hidden
> what she'd done for long. It's exciting to see Wil her back on top
> course stuck in there is a little reminder of how thin the line is
> between the fun, cuddly character she wants to be and the contemptuous
> she has to be the first one of the group to try to reach out to Anya
> and help her get over the mass-murder; that's the way such things
> work in the Buffyverse.
>
> I feel a little strange giving fashion updates, but hey, I noticed
> these things: first, Willow's dressing the way Buffy might have in
> the show's early days, and second, the workmanlike jeans-and-T-shirt
> look is working well for Xander.
>
> anyone else (Trachtenberg's appearance is more or less just so they
> can say she appeared). Spike's cameo is an interesting little scene,
> at least. Turning to Buffy for someone to talk to about his insanity
> is appropriate both from character and "let's drawing parallels
> with last year!!" perspectives. And before the reveal of the
> fake-out, I actually did wonder whether she was going nuts with the
> afterward, it's unclear whether either Buffy was real, although it
> seems the viewer is meant to conclude that Buffy #2 is the real deal,
> based on the way it's shot, and the notion that Spike makes sense to
> himself but not to the outside world.
--Umm, what would be so nuts about Buffy listening to Spike's woes and
trying to help him? Seems to me it would be very natural, after the
way she saw him in the previous episode smashing his fist into his own
face because of his guilt and anguish. Remember, in that episode, how
Buffy tenderly placed her hand over his and so sweetly and patiently
said "No, Spike, not me -- another girl." She knows he's going through
hell; she'd have to be made of stone not to be concerned.
And of course she does show her concern, albeit in a brisker manner,
when she strides in and announces that Spike needs to get out of the
basement because it's bad for him. As you guessed, AOQ, that's the
real Buffy. And I can see her taking the brisk approach; I can accept
that she'd be that way rather than the patient and compassionate
listener whom we saw in the fantasy sequence; I just don't think it
would have been "nuts" if it had been the real Buffy who was listening
to Spike with patience and compassion. Back in the fall of 2002, there
were a lot of viewers who thought #1 was the real Buffy and #2 was an
evil spirit (too brisk and snappy to be good), or an imaginary phantasm
showing Spike's pessimism about Buffy; or else they realized the truth
but they WISHED #1 had been the real Buffy because #1 was behaving more
as they would have preferred Buffy to behave. And I can understand why
they felt that way, though I was never fully in their camp.
The common ground I had with the people who felt that way is that both
they and I felt Buffy had let Spike languish in the basement way too
long. Is it really a good idea to let an insane vampire lurk around in
a school basement where just anybody might come across him at any
moment? I don't mean that Spike would be a danger to anybody (there's
the chip, not to mention his punctilious conscience), but since he
can't defend himself from humans and people would be bound to think he
was weird, he could very easily be harmed by any random passerby.
Plus, has anybody even been bringing him blood supplies, or have our
heroes just been letting him fend for himself off of rats and such, at
the moments when they're not asking for his help to save Willow or
Cassie? The callousness of all that really bugs me. Also, AOQ, in the
STSP episode which you rated as "Excellent," you never had a thing to
say about the callous and brutal humor at Spike's expense, while he's
leading everybody through the woods in order to save Willow's life. I
always thought that was in extremely poor taste. Did it not bother
you?
Later in an interview (this isn't anything spoilery, AOQ) one of the
producers of BtVS said it had been a mistake to leave Spike in the
basement for so many episodes; but I think that comment was more from a
plot-movement point of view rather than a POV expressing qualms about
Buffy's and the Scoobies' lack of compassion. The lack of compassion
is what gets to me, but I do remember there were an awful lot of
restless, impatient viewers at the beginning of season 6 who wanted
Spike out of the basement and doing interesting things. Perhaps if you
were watching week by week instead of every day or so, you would be
getting impatient and dissatisfied about this too?
> 5) "Selfless" - SUPERLATIVE
--So, finally a "SUPERLATIVE" ranking from you, AOQ! In my opinion it
should've come earlier, with "Becomng 2," "Doppelgangland," and "Fool
For Love," but I certainly won't argue with]your praise of "Selfless."
It is indeed an excellent episode. I loved all the stuff with Aud and
Olaf, and later on the stuff with D'Hoffryn and Anya's crisis of
conscience. Note the writer's name, AOQ -- there's a reason why Drew
Goddard got the nickname "Drewgod"! Along with Joss himself, he's my
favorite BtVS writer of all time.
Clairel
Ari
> I meant: what Spike *thinks* he deserves--which he actually discusses.
Yeah, I was rather dubious about the perceived sentiment. Thanks for
the clarification(s). :)
One Bit Shy
news:1158299151.2...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
"I am Aud."
Yes, dear, we know you're odd. That's why we love you so much. (And the
episode purports to claim that Anya doesn't know who she is. Hah! She
declares it outright! -- My personal favorite line of the series.)
----
Well, this is the other big Anya story, so you know I would have a lot to
say...
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 5: "Selfless"
> Maybe I should start saying, based on a complete lack of any kind of
> evidence, that Joss was heavily involved in writing this one.
Goddard says that this was the first TV script he ever wrote.
> After setting things up, act one begins with an extended flashback and
> doesn't even bust out its credits until a few minutes later. All in
> (presumably genuine) Swedish, it continues the tradition of having
> Olaf, and everyone associated with him, talk in flowery and verbose
> language. I was certainly entertained. Although these sequences are
> pleasant, and give some texture to the central story of Audyanka's
> self-perceived lack of identity, they do seem a bit heavy on the
> fun:depth ratio considering how much screen time they eat up. That's
> not too much of a complaint though; nothing wrong with relaxing and
> enjoying the "goods and services" mention,
That's actually a multi-laden line tying into the theme of the episode and,
ultimately, Anya's whole life.
"I can give the excess out to the townspeople, exchanging them not for goods
or services, but for goodwill and the sense of accomplishment that stems
from selflessly giving of yourself to others."
Quite amusing with her later progression to communism and present-day love
for capitalism. But the idea of fulfillment through, "selflessly giving of
yourself to others," isn't socioeconomic philosophy. It turns out rather to
be about her own lack of identity - a literal selfless - and finding one's
self through others. Something really nicely handled, I think, by
D'Hoffryn's recognition that she knew her name but didn't know her true
self. Hence, Anyanka is born.
It's funny, but I had always known that Anya was kind of lost in this world,
prone to suggestion, and had staked everything on fulfillment through
Xander. But until this episode, I had never taken the simple step to
recognizing that as her own lack of identity. Duh! One of the multitude of
things about this episode that make it special to me. It's revelatory.
One little thing I like about the choice of the title "Selfless" is that in
spite of Anya's lack of self identity, she is still naturally somewhat
selfish. As a product of her living her life through others she wants them
and their things as her own. Needs them to feel whole herself. Another
way, for example, of looking at her desire to have all of Buffy's presents
as her own back in Older and Far Away as she imagines being Buffy, basking
in the love. Examples abound throughout her time in BtVS, which all could
be reconsidered in this light. Most obviously, of course, being the way she
clung to Xander.
The idea of a woman losing her identity by living it through a man is also
one of the core concepts of the feminist movement as exemplified by Betty
Friedan's, the Feminine Mystique. This episode (and Anya's whole arc)
doesn't go there terribly overtly, which I appreciate. It's not a feminist
tract. But my instincts strongly suggest that it was something very much on
Joss's mind even if it may not have been directly stated. Another example
of how the series often comes from a feminist frame of reference without
being about feminism. It's one of the ways to look at Anya's life, but it's
still Anya's personal story. One that isn't sacrificed on the altar of
ideology. Indeed, Xander ends up as the good guy here as we all realize
that Anya could never have made the choice she did had Xander not entered
her life.
> and logic that is
> "insane and happenstance, like that of a troll." And "the troll
> is doing an Olaf impersonation! Hit him with fruits and various
> meats!" And so on and on and on. It also momentarily seems like
> we'll get an explanation for the ubiquitous rabbit jokes, but are
> granted only hints.
I've always taken it as sufficient explanation in itself. An association
with her original ruined dream that sent her down the vengeance path. A
kind of psychological transference of her fear of rejection. Granted, the
vengeance is the greater psychopathic response. But it's all part of her
avoidance of examining her own life.
> The later Russian Revolution scene is worth
> having, to make the theme of Anya's journey a little more blatant
> with the "what else is there?" conversation,
I'm not certain what theme you refer to there. There's the stated
"selfless" theme of lack of identity. And you do have her working a job
self-defined as manifesting the desires of others. "It's all inside the
girl. I just bring it out." Along with the money line, "Vengeance is what I
am." Kind of defining herself by her job. But I don't have anything more
to say about that theme, except how it manifests at the end of the episode.
There are other things about this scene that strike me too. Starting, I
guess, with the more disturbing possibility that, "Vengeance is what I am,"
could really be (or at least have been) her true self. D'Hoffryn thought
so, and I wouldn't discount his expertise on the subject. If you consider
what we've all been saying about the dark side of Willow being a major part
of her, then D'Hoffryn's evaluation of Willow's potential isn't wrong. One
of the most striking bits of dialog for me is back in the second Sjornjost
scene.
D'Hoffryn: I get the sense that your talents are not fully appreciated here,
Anyanka. We'd like you to join us.
Anya: Why do you keep calling me that? My name is Aud.
D'Hoffryn: Perhaps, but Anyanka is who you are.
Anya: What would I have to do?
D'Hoffryn: What you do best. Help wronged women punish evil men.
Anya: Vengeance.
D'Hoffryn: But only to those who deserve it.
Anya: They all deserve it.
D'Hoffryn: That's where I was going with that, yeah.
Anya is actually a step ahead of D'Hoffryn by the end of the conversation
and requires no convincing to join him. It comes across like a calling for
her. In the St. Petersburg scene we see the vengeance demon in full flower.
And she's good at it. Halfrek saying, "I'm in awe of you," isn't just
fawning.
Chris raises an issue later in the discussion that I've heard a few times,
but don't really agree with. That being the realization that her
personality predates her demon life. That it couldn't be written off as the
amusing lapses of an ex-demon learning how to be human. Aside from
confusing manner with content, it misunderstands the core revelatory element
of the episode. Namely that her failure was always a human one. Vengeance
was already what she was when D'Hoffryn showed up. The only thing making
her a demon did was give her the power to shine at it.
To me, the biggest point of the St. Petersburg scene was to show that she
wasn't different as a demon. The same obsessive focus. The same quirky
logic. The same motivation she had as a human. Time and power allowed her
to develop her vengeance into an art - and make her content. But being a
demon doesn't change her.
Which we see a second time when she becomes a demon again. This time it
doesn't work the same way. Why? Because Xander changed her while she was
human. Becoming a demon doesn't undo that. The demon doesn't change her.
Never did.
This is a big reason that Anya's story fascinates me so much. I've
commented before how many parallels there are between her journey and
Spike's journey. They're very strong and don't go away. But there are huge
differences as well. Spike's story (Angel's and Darla's too for that
matter) has roots in his human self. But it's still essentially one of a
demon's redemption. He was born as something new when he became a vampire
and must regain his soul to become an (undead)man. Anya never lost her
soul. It wasn't the demon that unmade her. All that time that we had the
parallel of Xander teaching Anya to be human while Buffy was teaching the
same to Spike, Anya actually was human while Spike wasn't.
For this purpose, the better parallel turns out to be Willow. (Continuing
the BtVS sport of never ending parallels.) It's no accident that Willow
suddenly is Anya's helper, the only one who really identifies with her
predicament. Going back to STSP, in the kind of sexy conversation, Willow
summed up Anya's feelings in a way that Anya was surprised to find she
really identified with. But that summation was all about power. Nothing at
all about demon. Power run amok when handed to one's base instincts.
Willow understands that. And the frat house is disturbingly familiar to
her. She remembers every second of Warren's flaying.
There's another part to their parallel that I think is interesting. Willow
always had a spark of humanity in her - the thing that Xander drew upon to
save her last season. Anya, not so much - until Xander came into her life
and gave her his. (Anya gave a lot to him too, but that's not this
subject.) So, yes, the other parallel is Xander, who is in his way the
salvation of both. Perhaps a salvation more alike than it first seems. The
yellow crayon story, for example, isn't just a memory of what Willow once
was like. Implicit in the tale is that Xander is the guy who cared that
Willow was crying. Xander meant something to Willow in a fashion not so
different from Anya. I would suggest that they had both loved him for
pretty much the same reason - his heart. Which may add a little tone to
Triangle.
Getting back to St. Petersburg. The last thing I want to observe about that
scene is how totally obsessive she is about her vengeance calling. All else
is excluded. Even a little bit of fun at watching the razing of the Winter
Mansion. (Mansion?) Halfrek speaks of a whole world out there, but it
doesn't interest Anya. Implied in this is Anya's lack of feeling. (This is
the part of the conversation that the burning man appears without attracting
even their notice.) By that, I don't just mean cruel uncaring. I mean she
has denied herself the senses of life. It's all vengeance, and that's the
only thing she draws satisfaction from.
I mention that because of how that alone would disorient her when returned
to human state. And it did. A little flashback to S3's The Prom...
Anya: You know, you can laugh, but I have witnessed a millennium of
treachery and oppression from the males of the species and I have nothing
but contempt for the whole libidinous lot of them.
Xander: Then why you talking to me?
Anya: I don't have a date for the prom.
Xander: Well gosh. I wonder why not. It couldn't possibly have anything to
do with your sales pitch?
Anya: Men are evil. Will you go with me?
Xander: One of us is very confused, and I honestly don't know which.
Anya: You know, this happens to be all your fault.
Xander: My fault?
Anya: You were unfaithful to Cordelia so I took on the guise of a
twelfth-grader to tempt her with the Wish. When I lost my powers I got stuck
in this persona, and now I have all these feelings. I don't understand it. I
don't like it. All I know is I really want to go to this dance and I want
someone to go with me.
Late S3 and early S4 Anya was, well, a little crazy. After a thousand odd
years of repressing her feelings, she had a hell of a time coping with them.
Again, not so much because of anything the demon did to her, but because
she'd lost her single purpose and was left with nothing but all the stuff
she'd shut out - plus a good dose of teenage hormones. I appreciate how
what we see now supports what we saw then. I doubt this particular
connection was on the writer's mind, but it demonstrates to me the unity of
the construct. Which kind of surprises me since I think an ongoing Anya was
initially a hurried construct at the end of S3.
What also connects nicely for me is how Xander very quickly rejects Anya in
Graduation Day, but not like Olaf or the way any of the multitude of
vengeance wishers had related to Anya. In Xander's words, "I got friends on
the line." Somehow Xander managed to merge Anya's essential fear of
rejection with his first lesson in humanity - making Xander the object of
both hope and fear for Anya, and starting her down the path that went
through Hells Bells to here. I marvel now looking back at how well the
start fits what came.
What a strange path. She became demon to better express her human desires.
Had to return to human to find the humanity she missed the first time
around. But had to return to demon to understand her humanity.
> and to emphasize the
> depths of bloodiness in her past. Plus seeing that she wasn't always
> such a fan of capitalism. Also worth noting that the second chunk of
> the Scandinavian story finally solves one of things I'd been
> wondering about (and thought of as a plot hole) - how Aud turned Olaf
> into a troll even though vengeance demons can't invoke vengeance on
> behalf of themselves. Magic. Like Willow (almost) in "Wild At
> Heart." Okay.
Amusing moment I'm fond of...
Anya: A load bearing bar matron.
D'Hoffryn: Is there any other kind?
> Willow, kinda standing outside the center of the action, triggers a few
> of its central plot points. The first comes with her interactions with
> Anya, quickly figuring out that the latter isn't a good liar. Even
> if one ignores her slow-moving conscience, Anya couldn't have hidden
> what she'd done for long. It's exciting to see Wil her back on top
> of things, with the casual way she deflects the spider attack. And of
> course stuck in there is a little reminder of how thin the line is
> between the fun, cuddly character she wants to be and the contemptuous
> and violent individual that's also part of whom she is. Naturally,
> she has to be the first one of the group to try to reach out to Anya
> and help her get over the mass-murder; that's the way such things
> work in the Buffyverse.
I've already brought up the Willow/Anya parallel. Just wanted to add how
nice it is that Willow's impulse is to help Anya. And how using D'Hoffryn's
talisman the way she does represents, finally, a little real atonement for
Something Blue. She found something good to get out of the experience - and
along the way implicitly rejected D'Hoffryn a second time. This time with a
much fuller understanding of what that means. Good for her.
> I feel a little strange giving fashion updates, but hey, I noticed
> these things: first, Willow's dressing the way Buffy might have in
> the show's early days, and second, the workmanlike jeans-and-T-shirt
> look is working well for Xander.
Anya's outfit at the end isn't much of a fashion statement, but damn, I
found it hot. Or maybe it's just her with a sword.
> This episode is about all of the four main Scoobies, and not so much
> anyone else (Trachtenberg's appearance is more or less just so they
> can say she appeared).
But long enough to throw in a theme related line. "She(Anya) should try
acting like everybody else more." The episode sure isn't shy about theme
references. My favorite is in the song. "Mrs. Anya
Lame-Ass-Made-Up-Maiden-Name Harris." Funny, but still pointed at lack of
identity.
> Spike's cameo is an interesting little scene,
> at least. Turning to Buffy for someone to talk to about his insanity
> is appropriate both from character and "let's drawing parallels
> with last year!!" perspectives. And before the reveal of the
> fake-out, I actually did wonder whether she was going nuts with the
> sympathy and forgiveness as a response to the end of "Help."
As did I - and still do on repeated view. One of those moments that I
continually forget until the payoff.
> So there's a bout of spider-killing, itself an enjoyable battle,
It's a wonderful battle. So different from the norm that it feels really
fresh. Buffy throwing the axe up into the tree is way cool. It's rather a
mark of how good this episode is that it gets burried as just another scene.
> which leads into one of those ever-popular scenes in which our friends
> get to sit around yelling at each other. And it just may be the best
> one yet. Buffy is back on her game as the Slayer. Xander's appeals
> all come from the heart, but it leads him to bring the past into play
> in a simultaneously funny and moving manner: "This isn't new ground
> for us. When our friends go all crazy and start killing people, we
> help them." "Sitting right here!" It's wonderful the way
> Buffy steers the conversation and keeps it about necessity, showing
> gradually escalating annoyance but keeping it under control... and
> unloads from time to time with one or two yelled lines when it becomes
> too much, then makes herself calm down a little. It's the
> combination of Xander's somewhat fair issues with being shut out, and
> monstrously unfair accusations of being an uncaring killer that trigger
> her "I KILLED ANGEL!" explosion. And finally, after all these
> years, Buffy calls Xander to task for The Lie...
No indication that Buffy recognized it as a lie. Xander doesn't admit it.
Willow knows that it's not true, but she wasn't there and may not be sure
why the story came out as it did. In the meantime that gets pushed aside
because Willow has her own problem with Buffy now because she won't go with
her even though Buffy clearly wants her to. Willow makes up for this by
calling D'Hoffryn, but I don't think that really settles that little
disconnect. One more nuance to add to the scene.
> but it's not just
> for the sake of beating him up over it, it's in the name of proving a
> point - "it is always 'different!' It's always
> complicated."
I wanted to say something about Scythe's post last espisode and it's
relationship to here, but I'm writing too much as it is. Suffice to say
that the whole, "I am the law," bit is a big deal. (Not just for that
sentence.) However, assuming I'm right about where Scythe is going with
that, I'm not so convinced any of it should be all that evident to you at
this point. Things connect. And, you know, that's not exactly news by this
point in BtVS.
> As in "Villains," when she was almost arguing the
> opposite side, Buffy emerges as the voice of reason, and the others
> can't deny that she makes sense, even if they can't be part of her
> fight. That conversation ends with Brendon's delivery on "there
> has to be another way" suggesting that he sees that, and Buffy's
> convincing and earnest "then please find it." Ye gods, what a
> great scene.
The commentary speaks of being sympathetic to all sides. Which is so true.
Xander is showing many of his old Xander elements here, but more than ever
you can't fault him. Indeed, I would say that it's kind of his
responsibility to take the stance he does. Yeah, maybe Buffy did stab Angel
in the end. But it took a long time to get her there, and Xander isn't a
slayer.
One more thing in that scene that I like, (so many nuances) is how atuned
to each other Buffy and Willow are. Not in the sense of exactly agreeing,
but in knowing what each other are thinking. Willow knows Buffy has to kill
Anya. Buffy knows that's why Willow held back telling them. I don't think
we've seen this understanding between them since S5, though there was a sign
of it re-emerging in Entropy when Willow realized that something was up
between Buffy and Spike. I guess helping Willow heal a couple episodes ago
made a difference.
> Things then travel to Anya's side, and Xander's continued attempt
> to get through to her with his world-saving mouth. Caulfield is at her
> best here, with the rest of the cast not far behind. It's odd and
> fascinating the way she almost identifies with Buffy as a fellow
> supernatural creature who knows what her job "should" be, and then
> how she turns on the anger once said Slayer actually appears. Both
> segments of the fight are exciting, almost rivaling some of the other
> times Buffy's had to face off with a former friend.
I love the action and drama of this. Very sharp. And, yes, recognizing the
inevitability of the showdown is good. (Anya is also someone who has always
taken great pride in doing a job right. I think she might even be insulted
if Buffy didn't approach her with slaying in mind.)
There is some discussion about when/if Anya was resigned to death, and the
metaphorical slaying of the demon.
I think it's pretty clear that she was accepting death when sprawled on the
floor with Buffy above her, sword raised. Fortunately, Xander wasn't so
accepting. I assume the idea was simply Xander saving Anya when he had the
chance. But I've always harbored this notion that he saw Anya give up then
and knew it meant she really was worth saving.
A metaphorical slaying does come with the first impaling. You can tell,
because she's no longer in demon face after. What exactly that means I'm
not certain. Anya continued fighting. Perhaps it's something to do with
mentally letting go of all that history we've seen in flashback. I don't
know. In the real end of the episode she does seem to know there's no going
back and that she's on her own.
As for the idea that she was looking for death all along, I'm more
ambivalent about that. I think it's more that she's on a brink and has to
choose. (D'Hoffryn's solution not yet thought of.) But hasn't yet.
There's a lot of rage here and a lot of her that at least wants to defend
her lifetime of vengeance - pride still coming through. (Here I do still
relate to the Spike parallel and his anger at the chip preventing him from
being a monster and hating to have to make the choice he must.) Anya's
horror and misgivings about what she has done throughout this episode have
been alternated with an angry justification of the deed to Xander, an
equally angry reminder of Warren's flaying to Willow (both of their efforts
to help failing), and turning to Halfrek for encouragement. Halfrek's
efforts are inadequate, but she *is* encouraging to Anya none the less.
So I tend to think it hung in the balance until the final flashback. In my
internal imagining of this, the thing that turns it, makes Anya's mind up in
the end, is Xander asleep in the chair during the musical number. It's the
sleep of the innocent moment when Xander becomes the total lovable lunk.
And Anya loses all her heart for vengeance. She certainly can't be
motivated by Olaf anymore. And the wedding fiasco stops being enough.
("Sooner or later, Anya, that excuse just stops working." - from Beneath
You) Xander gave her too much over three years to support vengeance. (Anya
to Xander at the end - "Thanks. For everything.")
Just another love story.
> One of the episode's most unorthodox moments comes when Anya is
> abruptly stabbed through the heart to close act three. My eyes popped
> wide open there. And then act four spends like three minutes taking us
> back to Sunnydale, 2001. Can't say I saw that coming. It's
> strange and maybe gimmicky, but given that it would work so well as
> either a eulogy or a restatement of theme en route to her surviving,
> good on it. I don't like having to be reminded of dumb things like
> the end of "Hell's Bells" and the source of the spell in OMWF,
> both of which are part of this episode, but such are the perils of
> serialized TV.
What's wrong with that? <g>
I think they had in mind recalling something iconic to emphasize how tied in
to Xander she was. According to the commentary, they had toyed with the
idea of recalling Hush, but decided the silent approach wouldn't work so
well in this episode. So Goddard had the gumption to ask Joss to write a
new song - and got his wish in a day.
I don't actually like the song all that much. Kind of clunky. But it gets
its point across well, better I think than the Hush idea would have. And
wedding dress to sword in chest... Phew! That's some transition.
> If anyone cares, I didn't notice the mustard until I saw it on the
> transcript, but that's pretty funny. And speaking of dumb but funny,
> "oh, breathtaking. It's like somebody slaughtered an Abercrombie &
> Fitch catalog."
I like the mustard bit - which is nice, 'cause that's the one number in OMWF
that I hated.
D'Hoffryn's line is priceless - as is his whole performance. Almost makes
me wish he'd been a regular, though I don't think he's the kind of demon
Buffy would have wanted to face.
> Meanwhile, seems like every plot thread of "Selfless" is heavily
> tied to the past. That amulet that Willow's had for the past three
> years comes into play as she takes it upon herself to have another chat
> with D'Hoffryn. (And keep in mind, Willow + strong magic, especially
> in the name of helping friends + evil impulses = potentially bad, which
> is perhaps why the "shut your whimpering mouth!" scene is in this
> episode. And which makes the callback to "Something Blue" seem
> even more appropriate. "Selfless" is put together so well.)
> Everyone's favorite demon patriarch may be a dick, but he's also
> the one to remind everyone that Anya has her own existence
> independently of everyone else (or should), and should thus be the one
> to decide whether her vengeance can be undone.
About D'Hoffryn. Yes, he's one mean SOB. Arguably the most powerful and
truly destructive demon over time we've seen on the series. Even so, he
seems to work within some kind of controlled framework with its own weird
ethics - albeit ones that don't preclude maximum pain. I really like how
his conclusion with Anya comes in the form of a wish.
Also, I think D'Hoffryn's anger with Anya is his version of hurt. Not that
I want to remind you of Hell's Bells again (oh, hell, of course I do), but
he showed what sure looked like genuine affection for Anya then. And
Halfrek insinuated that Anya was D'Hoffryn's favorite. I think he's lashing
back at Anya for rejecting him - which is a pretty neat transferance of the
rejection theme in Anya's life. Here, Anya does the rejecting, and in the
process leaves that part of her behind.
> That leads into a second attempt to make the viewer think that she
> might die. At this point, I was suspecting that if the show wanted to
> kill Anya, it'd have done so already, so I was all prepared to get
> annoyed over all this buildup and misdirection for nothing. As it
> turns out, Anya lives, and the buildup isn't for nothing at all.
> D'Hoffryn echoes a Mutant Enemy writer's credo: "never go for the
> kill when you can go for the pain." And throw in another reference
> to the "beneath you it devours" thing for good measure, just to add
> to the sense of rising action tying together the individual episodes of
> early S7. I love this show. Even when trying to atone, Anya's a
> killer. Death is too easy a redemption in the Buffyverse. Never much
> cared for the character of Hallie, so it's a double blessing to see
> her death used so effectively.
I liked Halfrek. A lot, actually. I think she may be the most effective
symbollic character ever on BtVS. (Offhand I can't think of anyone else
quite like her.) Essentially she is Anya. Her function from the start was
to remind Anya, us, everybody what being a vengeance demon really means.
And especially to remind us that Anya had never gotten rid of that within
herself. Her death here I think is more the metaphoric death of Anya's
demon than was the sword through the chest. She also served the practical
function of having previously established that a sword through the chest
doesn't kill vengeance demons.
> Regarding Xander's final exchange with Anya: "Xander - what if
> I'm really nobody?" "Don't be a dope." Such a sweet insult.
> You know what that reminds me of? It's ROT13ed for those who for
> some reason still haven't seen _Firefly_. Ohg ng gur raq bs
> "Freravgl" (gur rcvfbqr), Fvzba erfcbaqf gb Evire'f tengvghqr naq
> qvforyvrs gung ur'q or noyr gb fnir ure jvgu "lbh'er n qhzzl;"
> clearly not true, but it somehow conveys more affection than a more
> straightforward declaration of love would. Well, same thing here.
I like how it continues after that.
Anya: I'm a dope.
Xander: Sometimes.
Anya: That's a start.
One final return to the theme of no identity with Anya finally saying she
has to make herself.
Xander is very sweet here, especially since it comes right on the heels of
Anya's thanks for everything - a thanks delivered with a finality that tells
Xander that it's really over. Watching Xander wilt right then is heart
breaking. And just in case you missed the point, the episode closes with
the two walking away from each other.
Just another love story.
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: An episode for all seasons.
>
> AOQ rating: SUPERLATIVE
I think (we'll see) that there is another episode this season that I would
find objectively better than this. But the hell with objectively. This one
matters more to me. Even though her story is smaller than some, it is for
me second only to Buffy's story for its impact. (Yes, more than Spike's or
Willow's stories.) And this culmination of her journey thrills me. In some
ways Anya was a worse demon than the vampires we know. And she lacked the
excuse of no soul that they had. She chose her course more thoroughly than
they did. But when she finally came to understand her humanity she also
finally chose that though it meant her life to do so. (She believed.) I
especially love how she had to become a demon again to understand her
humanity - as it taught her the truth of her demon way.
It's also a great love story, so very different from most we've seen here.
There's a sadness to it, but it's not tragic. Xander and Anya had their
love - in full - and it was wonderful and transforming. Especially for
Anya. Something that's now passed, but not lost.
Going back to the Willow parallel for a moment, Willow went through her life
recklessly grasping at magical power until she ran into power too big for
her and was nearly brought down by it. Anya grasped perhaps more recklessly
than Willow, and was corrupted practically from the start. "My whole life,
I've just clung to whatever came along." But with Anya, what she eventually
ran into was Xander. And true love. It brought her down too. To humanity.
I was thinking about the little to do about my remark about a woman changing
her man - referring to Buffy and Spike. Here we have the reverse of the man
changing the woman. But just as with Spike, in the end only Anya could
change herself. Xander may have shown the way - a tremendous gift - but
it's still up to Anya to go there. This is why they can't be together. And
why Xander leaving her at the altar doesn't matter anymore - was the right
thing to do even though he didn't understand why. Anya can't depend on
Xander - anyone - that way again. That's the Anya that became a vengeance
demon. One way or the other she has to craft herself now. It's a kind of
Annie Hall story. (As weird as it is to bring Woody Allen into this.) The
thing that makes their love special is the thing that requires it to end.
Anya's not the same person anymore. What Xander provided and she needed so
badly can only be in the way now.
I don't quite know how to fit Superlative into your system, so I'm leaving
my rating as Excellent. This is currently sitting #8 all time, but I'm
still in the process of constructing a top ten. It might shift around a
little.
OBS
George W Harris
:"George W Harris" <gha...@mundsprung.com> wrote in message
Right, because people who are emotionally cruel
deserve to have their hearts ripped out. And muggers
deserve to be eaten.
:
:(kim)
:
--
Doesn't the fact that there are *exactly* 50 states seem a little suspicious?
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> Season Seven, Episode 5: "Selfless"
> Writer: Drew Goddard
> Director: David Solomon
>
> evidence, that Joss was heavily involved in writing this one.
Goddard said in the commentary that the one scene he really needed help
on was the final one, between Anya and Xander. He was overwriting it.
It took someone, i.e. Joss, who knew the characters and the actors
inside-out to get it.
> So there's a bout of spider-killing, itself an enjoyable battle,
> which leads into one of those ever-popular scenes in which our friends
> get to sit around yelling at each other. And it just may be the best
> one yet.
[snip]
> That conversation ends with Brendon's delivery on "there
> has to be another way" suggesting that he sees that, and Buffy's
> convincing and earnest "then please find it." Ye gods, what a
> great scene.
Yeah, it went to 11. One thing that strikes me is Buffy's sadness.
She really doesn't want to do what she's determined she has to do.
Someone else pointed out the parallel with the scene in Becoming where
Xander accuses Buffy of just wanting her boyfriend back. He was always
quick to jump on Buffy for not wanting to do the hard thing with Angel.
Xander, meet Karma. Or something.
> One of the episode's most unorthodox moments comes when Anya is
> abruptly stabbed through the heart to close act three. My eyes popped
> wide open there. And then act four spends like three minutes taking us
> back to Sunnydale, 2001. Can't say I saw that coming.
I vaguely remember my jaw hanging open for the entire scene, with a
sort of goofy half grin. Until the hard cut at the end, which really
hit me.
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: An episode for all seasons.
>
> AOQ rating: SUPERLATIVE
Color me stunned. I didn't think I'd ever see that.
> [Season Seven so far:
> 1) "Lessons" - Good
> 2) "Beneath You" - Decent
> 3) "Same Time, Same Place" - Excellent
> 4) "Help" - Good
> 5) "Selfless" - SUPERLATIVE]
Is it fair to say that S7 is clicking with you?
-- Mike Zeares
One Bit Shy
news:qPidnU9tvKE...@giganews.com...
Somehow I don't think the subtitles were drawn from the phonetic script.
Nobody means to suggest that they learned the language. It was strictly a
phonetic reading that surely had numerous problems.
OBS
Rincewind
>
> Others have commented on the Swedish and the fact that it ought to have
> been Old Norse or Icelandic. I'll just note that in s1 there is an
> excruciating scene of monks in Cortona, Italy in the 15th century
> (erroneously referred to as the "Dark Ages") who are speaking terrible
> Italian.
I have to disagree. The monks in Italy are speaking Italian with a terrible
accent but their pronunciation is almost perfect: I understood everything
thay said except for one sentence where a mispronounced "i" and a shift of
the stress on the wrong syllable made "ti darò" (I will give you) sound like
"ti adoro" (I adore you).
The unbelievably bad Italian came later, with Willow's de-ratting spell in
season 6 naq Naqerj va Ebzr va NgF frnfba 5.
Rincewind.
--
Lines you'll never hear on Buffy:
TARA: Say, Willow? You know that Amy the rat isn't in her cage right?
WILLOW: Really? Um, maybe having a cat and a rat in the same apartment
wasn't such a good idea after all.
Jeff Jacoby
[snip]
> ran into was Xander. And true love. It brought her down too. To humanity.
>
> I was thinking about the little to do about my remark about a woman changing
> her man - referring to Buffy and Spike. Here we have the reverse of the man
> changing the woman. But just as with Spike, in the end only Anya could
> change herself. Xander may have shown the way - a tremendous gift - but
> it's still up to Anya to go there. This is why they can't be together. And
> why Xander leaving her at the altar doesn't matter anymore - was the right
> thing to do even though he didn't understand why. Anya can't depend on
> Xander - anyone - that way again. That's the Anya that became a vengeance
> demon. One way or the other she has to craft herself now. It's a kind of
> Annie Hall story. (As weird as it is to bring Woody Allen into this.) The
> thing that makes their love special is the thing that requires it to end.
> Anya's not the same person anymore. What Xander provided and she needed so
> badly can only be in the way now.
But later episodes (Storyteller, End of Days, Choosen, one other
I think) seem to strongly suggest it is *not* over between them.
Jeff
Jeff Jacoby
If you can, ignore previous post. It contains spoilers.
(Damn. And sorry)
Jeff
George W Harris
wrote:
: It's a kind of
:Annie Hall story. (As weird as it is to bring Woody Allen into this.)
"I'm dead, and they're talking about wheat."
Sorry.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Jeff Jacoby <jja...@not.real.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 23:31:13 -0400, One <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > ran into was Xander. And true love. It brought her down too. To
> > humanity.
> >
> > I was thinking about the little to do about my remark about a woman
> > changing
> > her man - referring to Buffy and Spike. Here we have the reverse of the
> > man
> > changing the woman. But just as with Spike, in the end only Anya could
> > change herself. Xander may have shown the way - a tremendous gift - but
> > it's still up to Anya to go there. This is why they can't be together.
> > And
> > why Xander leaving her at the altar doesn't matter anymore - was the right
> > thing to do even though he didn't understand why. Anya can't depend on
> > Xander - anyone - that way again. That's the Anya that became a vengeance
> > demon. One way or the other she has to craft herself now. It's a kind of
> > Annie Hall story. (As weird as it is to bring Woody Allen into this.) The
> > thing that makes their love special is the thing that requires it to end.
> > Anya's not the same person anymore. What Xander provided and she needed so
> > badly can only be in the way now.
naln fgvyy jnagf na betnfz ohqql
ohg vgf abg pyrne gurerf nalguvat orlbaq gung
Rincewind
>
> Rincewind wrote:
>
>> Just out of curiosity: have you ever given such a high rating to any
>> other
>> episode of BtVS or AtS (I started reading your reviews when you were
>> already
>> at the end of S4, so I don't know about the earlier seasons).
>
> This is indeed the very first AOQ SUPERLATIVE rating. That being said,
> though, there's a bit of a rating discrepancy, since there are a couple
> that I think I probably underrated. I'll have to watch them again
> before I'm sure, but my memory tells me that "Innocence" and "Five By
> Five" are both (slightly) better than "Selfless."
I say now you have an obligation to your faithful readers: after you're done
with season 7 you have to go back and re-watch all the episodes that you
rated Good or Excellent and post new reviews in which you tell us if your
original rating has survived the test of time and discuss how your opinion
of the episode has changed now that you can watch it from the vantage point
of knowing exactly where the series is going to and how that episode fits in
the big scheme of things.
Rincewind.
--
Lines you'll never hear on Buffy:
BUFFY: (looking down at herself after climbing out of her grave) Who the
fuck dressed me???
John Briggs
> In article <cPwOg.15340$cx....@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net>,
> "John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>> Don Sample wrote:
>>>
>>> (Historical nitpickers
>>
>> That would be me :-)
>>
>>> also point out that the Winter Palace wasn't
>>> razed in the 1905 revolt. That one didn't really take. They had to
>>> try it again, about a decade later to really toss out the Tsar)
>>
>> Tsarist troops at the Winter Palace. The October 1917 "Storming of
>> the Winter Palace" didn't really happen either (it was mostly
>> invented by Eisenstein*). [It was the Provisional Government under
>> Kerensky that was tossed out.] My thesis is that Drew Goddard, who
>> is a great writer but hazy about history, misunderstood Joss's
>> reference to the Crimean War in "Lessons" (although that could have
>> been a mistake by Joss) and confused the cruiser "Aurora" giving the
>> signal for the storming of the Winter Palace in 1917 (as recreated
>> by Eisenstein) with the massacre on the Odessa Steps (in the Crimea,
>> in 1905) in Eisenstein's "Battleship Potemkin". (Joss may have
>> suggested a hommage to Eisenstein.)
>>
>> *According to the Wikipedia (which may not be wholly reliable on this
>> point), more people were killed making Eisenstein's film than in the
>> actual revolution.
>
> The sound in the background is William of Ockham turning in his grave.
OK, what is a simpler explanation that fits the following facts:
1. Joss makes a reference to the Crimean War in "Lessons" (which needlessly
rules out Cecily having later become Halfrek.)
2. Drew Goddard doesn't realise that this rules out Cecily having become
Halfrek, and deliberately sets the scene in "Selfless" in the 20th century
to leave that option open.
3. He sets it in the 1905 Revolution, but includes a burning Palace in St
Petersburg, and a reference to storming/razing the Winter Palace - neither
of which happened.
Remember, "Drew Goddard is an idiot" doesn't explain why 1905 rather than
1917.
--
John Briggs
John Briggs
> On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 12:15:04 GMT, "John Briggs" wrote:
>>
>> *According to the Wikipedia (which may not be wholly reliable on this
>> point),
>
Maybe not , but it is more reliable than Encyclopaedia Britannica.
--
John Briggs
Elisi
The writers are flawed and often rubbish at history/maths. Just
remember that we have Spike declaring to be 126 in S4 (1999), and is
later revealed to have been sired in 1880, which is just silly.
As far as I recall, Kali Rocha (who played Cecily/Halfrek) said that
Cecily was supposed to have become Halfrek, so it's the writers who
screwed up. (And no, I don't count the comic books as canon). For any
fic readers out there, Pfeifferpack wrote a fabulous (and very well
re-searched) story about how one became the other. Story starts here:
http://pfeifferpack.livejournal.com/7683.html
(Um - spoiler warning just in case?)
John Briggs
> remember that we have Spike declaring to be 126 in S4 (1999), and is
> later revealed to have been sired in 1880, which is just silly.
Yes, but that doesn't explain 1905. Even Hollywood scriptwriters (or,
depending on your political persuasion, especially Hollywood scriptwriters)
would know that the Russian Revolution was in 1917.
> As far as I recall, Kali Rocha (who played Cecily/Halfrek) said that
> Cecily was supposed to have become Halfrek, so it's the writers who
> screwed up.
That option was left open. They (principally the other Drew) were just
playing with us in "Older and Far Away" when they found that they'd hired
the same actress.
--
John Briggs
Stephen Tempest
>Well, no. In 1905 there was a massacre of peaceful demonstrators by Tsarist
>troops at the Winter Palace. The October 1917 "Storming of the Winter
>Palace" didn't really happen either (it was mostly invented by Eisenstein*).
>[It was the Provisional Government under Kerensky that was tossed out.] My
>thesis is that Drew Goddard, who is a great writer but hazy about history,
>misunderstood Joss's reference to the Crimean War in "Lessons" (although
>that could have been a mistake by Joss) and confused the cruiser "Aurora"
>giving the signal for the storming of the Winter Palace in 1917 (as
>recreated by Eisenstein) with the massacre on the Odessa Steps (in the
>Crimea, in 1905) in Eisenstein's "Battleship Potemkin". (Joss may have
>suggested a hommage to Eisenstein.)
Since we're nitpicking: the film 'Battleship Potemkin' does not take
place in the Crimea at all... Odessa is about 120 miles (as the
predreadnought sails or the Vengeance Demon teleports) from the
nearest point of the Crimea. Longer if you go overland. :)
As a side-note, the Crimea is not in the Balkans either.
And for that matter, when Anya says "The worker will overthrow
absolutism and lead the proletariat to a victorious communist
revolution, resulting in socio-economic paradise on Earth" a nitpicker
would argue that she is clearly talking about the 1905 Revolution,
because that was directed against "absolutism". The 1917 Revolution
was directed instead against the "bourgeois revisionism" of Kerensky's
liberal democratic government...
If there was a mistake at all, it was Joss and the Crimean War
reference. Even that's arguable though: what Halfrek says is:
"Listen, Anya, I know I've been a little competitive with you, there
was that thing during the Crimean War, we laugh about it now, but the
fact is I've actually always looked up to you. You were the single
most hard-core vengeance demon on the roster and everybody knew it."
It's not _impossible_ that Anyanka did something during the Crimean
War, and when Cecily became Halfrek 30 years later she heard about
those deeds and became determined to surpass them, trying so hard she
made an utter fool of herself...
Stephen
Stephen Tempest
>On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 03:33:03 +0100, "kim" <ntsc...@aol.com> wrote:
>:So what is it exactly that Anya has supposed to have done "wrong"? I know
>:she slaughtered the frat house boys but they deserved it just as Warren
>:deserved to be flayed alive.
>
> Right, because people who are emotionally cruel
>deserve to have their hearts ripped out. And muggers
>deserve to be eaten.
And teasing someone to make her cry is morally equivalent to getting a
gun and shooting someone through the chest, or sneaking up behind them
and burying an axe in their back...
Stephen
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
it began in the balkans as yet another fight
among eastern and western christians anf moslems
and then moved into the black sea as russia retreated
vague disclaimer
"John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
Drew Goddard included a bunny joke in the Sveeeeedish scene, which
inferred that Anya wasn't always personal-gain obsessed.
Realised a communism joke would be a good way to pay it off and that
moving the scene from the Renaissance enabled some further fanboy chain
yanking re Cecily (the two Drews being the most inveterate fan
servicers).
Threw in a load of stuff he thought sounded cool (rightly so).
Job done.
Didn't give a moment's thought to Crimea, what with St Petersburg being
on the opposite side of a continent and where the communist revolution
ignited.
Interestingly, the very fact that it was set in 1905 suggests the
opposite of "Goddard's history is hazy", since the vast majority of
people who have never studied history wouldn't even realise there was a
1905 revolution (never mind that there were Mensheviks as well as
Bolsheviks).
Didn't, for one second, realise that some viewers thought they were
watching a documentary.
(Joss also didn't especially care, since as usual he was more interested
in character than consistency and a tad busy on Firefly)
So we have an elaborate web of misunderstanding and educational failure
vs
A writer trying to tell a good story with a lot of cool stuff in it.
*Makes hand-weigh-y motion*
*Has strange feeling of deja vu*
--
Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
John Briggs
> "John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> writes:
>
>> Well, no. In 1905 there was a massacre of peaceful demonstrators by
>> Tsarist troops at the Winter Palace. The October 1917 "Storming of
>> the Winter Palace" didn't really happen either (it was mostly
>> invented by Eisenstein*). [It was the Provisional Government under
>> Kerensky that was tossed out.] My thesis is that Drew Goddard, who
>> is a great writer but hazy about history, misunderstood Joss's
>> reference to the Crimean War in "Lessons" (although that could have
>> been a mistake by Joss) and confused the cruiser "Aurora" giving the
>> signal for the storming of the Winter Palace in 1917 (as recreated
>> by Eisenstein) with the massacre on the Odessa Steps (in the Crimea,
>> in 1905) in Eisenstein's "Battleship Potemkin". (Joss may have
>> suggested a hommage to Eisenstein.)
>
> Since we're nitpicking: the film 'Battleship Potemkin' does not take
> place in the Crimea at all... Odessa is about 120 miles (as the
> predreadnought sails or the Vengeance Demon teleports) from the
> nearest point of the Crimea. Longer if you go overland. :)
Yes, OK, I should have said the Black Sea - but the Black Sea Fleet was
based at Sebastopol.
> As a side-note, the Crimea is not in the Balkans either.
Most definitions exclude Odessa as well.
> And for that matter, when Anya says "The worker will overthrow
> absolutism and lead the proletariat to a victorious communist
> revolution, resulting in socio-economic paradise on Earth" a nitpicker
> would argue that she is clearly talking about the 1905 Revolution,
> because that was directed against "absolutism". The 1917 Revolution
> was directed instead against the "bourgeois revisionism" of Kerensky's
> liberal democratic government...
We may be getting somewhere. Now if we could determine where Goddard got
*that* from...
> If there was a mistake at all, it was Joss and the Crimean War
> reference. Even that's arguable though: what Halfrek says is:
> "Listen, Anya, I know I've been a little competitive with you, there
> was that thing during the Crimean War, we laugh about it now, but the
> fact is I've actually always looked up to you. You were the single
> most hard-core vengeance demon on the roster and everybody knew it."
>
> It's not _impossible_ that Anyanka did something during the Crimean
> War, and when Cecily became Halfrek 30 years later she heard about
> those deeds and became determined to surpass them, trying so hard she
> made an utter fool of herself...
The simplest reading of Halfrek's statement is that *she* did something
during the Crimean War.
--
John Briggs
kim
news:f8ong2h5dcnffhabu...@4ax.com...
The girl said she felt as if her heart had been ripped out and wished they
could know what it feels like. All Anya did was summon up a creature which
did exactly that. Sounds fair to me.
(kim)
kim
I find it difficult to believe that they wrote a phonetic script which
sounded half-swedish for one character and completely un-swedish for the
other.
(kim)
John Briggs
I'm not convinced there was a phonetic script - the only one I've seen has
real Swedish.
[NOTE: for the duration of this scene, the actors will be speaking Swedish.
Their dialogue will be dubbed over (badly) by the actors in English.]
OLAF (Swedish)
Aud! Rara, vackra Aud!
Jag är så hungrig så jag
skulle kunna ata upp ett
litet barn!
OLAF (English)
Aud! Sweet, beautiful Aud!
I am so hungry I could eat
a small child!
--
John Briggs
yamsham
When I have on the English subs for the English language track, it usually
matches the spoken dialogue word for word. Sometimes there's a word missing
here or there, but no big. But when I have on the Spanish subs and listen to
the Spanish language track, there's a big difference between what I'm
reading and what's being spoken. The subs are probably a more literal
translation of the English dialogue, while the dub has to simultaneously
translate and match the mouth-flaps of the actors. That's probably what
happened with the Swedish subs, but since they're reciting phonetic Swedish
dialogue...you wind up with an unintentionally funny Swedish word salad.
That's my guess anyway.
John Briggs
The flaw in your theory is that the original script has real Swedish - which
should be what's in the subtitles.
--
John Briggs
hayes62
kim wrote:
> The girl said she felt as if her heart had been ripped out and wished they
> could know what it feels like. All Anya did was summon up a creature which
> did exactly that. Sounds fair to me.
>
> (kim)
Please tell me I don't have to explain metaphor to you vengeance demons.
Opus the Penguin
> Is English the official supernatural language, or is the show's
> Universal Translator doing the work for us?
Heh. I like the first thought. I can hear the 5 second ad now:
English, the official supernatural language on Buffy the Vampire
Slayer. Next time you have something to say, try saying it in English!
--
Opus the Penguin
The best darn penguin in all of Usenet
Mel
But it doesn't rule out Cecily already being Halfrek.
> 2. Drew Goddard doesn't realise that this rules out Cecily having become
> Halfrek, and deliberately sets the scene in "Selfless" in the 20th century
> to leave that option open.
> 3. He sets it in the 1905 Revolution, but includes a burning Palace in St
> Petersburg, and a reference to storming/razing the Winter Palace - neither
> of which happened.
Buffyverse vengeance demons could have changed history so that it's no
longer the same as ours.
>
> Remember, "Drew Goddard is an idiot" doesn't explain why 1905 rather than
> 1917.
Mel
Rowan Hawthorn
You've been smoking that funny tobacco again, haven't you?
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Scythe Matters
One Bit Shy wrote:
> I wanted to say something about Scythe's post last espisode and it's
> relationship to here, but I'm writing too much as it is. Suffice to say
> that the whole, "I am the law," bit is a big deal. (Not just for that
> sentence.) However, assuming I'm right about where Scythe is going with
> that, I'm not so convinced any of it should be all that evident to you at
> this point. Things connect. And, you know, that's not exactly news by this
> point in BtVS.
V pbhyq tvir gur ragver guvat njnl gb NbD jvgu gjb jbeqf: Xbonlnfuv
Zneh. V qba'g xabj vs lbh xabj Gerx jryy rabhtu gb trg gung, ohg
(oevrsyl) vg'f n ab-jva fvghngvba gung nyy Fgnesyrrg pnqrgf unir gb
haqretb nf n genvavat rkrepvfr. Vg pna'g or orngra, naq gur grfg vf
npghnyyl qrfvtarq gb bofreir ubj gur pnqrg qrnyf jvgu gung. Rkprcg gung
gurer'f bar thl jub "orng" gur fpranevb: Xvex (bs pbhefr). Naq ur qvq fb
ol punatvat gur ehyrf naq ercebtenzzvat gur fpranevb fb gung vg jnf ab
ybatre n ab-jva fpranevb, va juvpu Xvex znvagnvaf ur qbrfa'g oryvrir.
Purngvat, creuncf, ohg gur xrl vf gung ur qrpvqrq gung vs gur ehyrf
qvqa'g crezvg n ivpgbel, gur fbyhgvba jnfa'g gb xrrc cbvagyrffyl ybbxvat
sbe n cngu ivpgbel, ohg gb punatr gur angher bs gur tnzr.
V guvax yngre cbgragvny sehfgengvbaf jvgu frnfba frira ner zhpu
zvgvtngrq -- ng yrnfg, gurl jrer sbe zr, hcba er-ivrjvat -- ol jngpuvat
Z.R. frg gung hc ba n sbhaqngvba bs gur ynfg fvk frnfbaf naq gura cnl vg
bss, ovg ol ovg. Gur fbyhgvba Ohssl unf gb pbzr gb vf gung "inzcver ol
inzcver" naq "bar tvey va nyy gur jbeyq" ner ab ybatre rabhtu. Fur'f tbg
gb punatr gur ehyrf bs gur tnzr. Fur'f yvgrenyyl tbg gb punatr ure
qrfgval, ure sngr (naq guhf, rirelbar ryfr'f), naq gur frnfba'f orfg nep
vf nobhg trggvat ure gb gung ernyvmngvba.
Juvpu vf abg gb fnl V guvax zhpu bs gur Svefg, vgf cyna, vgf rkrphgvba,
be vgf qrsrng, ohg gung'f ernyyl arvgure urer abe gurer.
V nterr jvgu lbh gung vg'f qvssvphyg gb frr guvf guernq jvgubhg gur
orarsvg bs "Pubfra" naq uvaqfvtug, ohg V qba'g guvax vg'f vzcbffvoyr. V
ernyyl qb guvax vg'f gur nyzbfg varivgnoyr pbapyhfvba gb gur
"JggU"/"Uneirfg"/"Cebcurpl Tvey"/"Naar"/"Tenqhngvba
Qnl"/"Erfgyrff"/"OifQ"/"Gur Tvsg" frevrf bs rcvfbqrf (gurer ner
boivbhfyl znal zber gung svg va gurer gbb, yvxr "Abezny Ntnva") gung tb
qverpgyl gb gur angher naq vqragvgl bs gur Fynlre, naq Ohssl'f
npprcgnapr bs naq bccbfvgvba gb gung. Vs lbh guvax nobhg frevrf-ybat
nepf, guvf vf bar gung ernyyl unf gb cnl bss va n jnl bgure guna "Gur
Tvsg" (fvapr gurl'ir nyernql qrpvqrq gung "Gur Tvsg" vfa'g gur jnl vg'f
tbvat gb raq). V'z gelvat gb rqtr NbD gbjneqf frrvat vg n yvggyr rneyvre
guna ur zvtug, be ng yrnfg orvat zber njner bs gur fhogrkg nf gurl cbxr
naq cebq vg guebhtubhg gur frnfba.
That's way, way too much rot13 for anyone's good. Maybe we should take
it to another thread.
One Bit Shy
news:9kTOg.28418$WV2....@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
For some reason I had the impression they learned it phonetically. I
couldn't tell you why now. Perhaps it was a poor description of them
attempting to sound out the words as written. But if the script was
straight Swedish, and the actors didn't know the language (which I don't
believe they did), then it's no wonder it would come out weird.
In any case, for better or worse, it's an English language show, and the use
of a non-English language like this would exist for its effect, not its
accuracy. If it simply sounds coherent and interesting and foreign it's
done its job. Any true accuracy would be the soft chewy center of display
candy not meant to be bitten into.
OBS
kim
news:1158421313....@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
But Anya knew exactly what it felt like because Xander had just done it to
her so she was 100% justified. It's not as if frat house boys are an
endangered species or anything, no one is going to notice a few less of
them.
(kim)
Arbitrar Of Quality
> > This is indeed the very first AOQ SUPERLATIVE rating. That being said,
> > though, there's a bit of a rating discrepancy, since there are a couple
> > that I think I probably underrated. I'll have to watch them again
> > before I'm sure, but my memory tells me that "Innocence" and "Five By
> > Five" are both (slightly) better than "Selfless."
>
> I say now you have an obligation to your faithful readers: after you're done
> with season 7 you have to go back and re-watch all the episodes that you
> rated Good or Excellent and post new reviews in which you tell us if your
> original rating has survived the test of time and discuss how your opinion
> of the episode has changed now that you can watch it from the vantage point
> of knowing exactly where the series is going to and how that episode fits in
> the big scheme of things.
Why only the G/E ones? Why not, say, the whole series?
-AOQ
~Opus is considering doing a non-newbie set of full reviews. But if
not, I'll do some capsule-review posts after we're finished with ATS~
Arbitrar Of Quality
Rowan Hawthorn wrote:
> John Briggs wrote:
> > George W Harris wrote:
> >> On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 12:15:04 GMT, "John Briggs" wrote:
> >>> *According to the Wikipedia (which may not be wholly reliable on this
> >>> point),
> >> Just on *that* point?
> >
> > Maybe not , but it is more reliable than Encyclopaedia Britannica.
>
> You've been smoking that funny tobacco again, haven't you?
There's a study floating around saying that as far as scientific
matters go, Wikipedia is about as accurate as a published encyclopedia.
Now, hopefully the newspapers that ran stories about it weren't using
Wikipedia as their source on that one...
-AOQ
One Bit Shy
"Jeff Jacoby" <jja...@not.real.com> wrote in message
news:YcydnSVUkMsKO5bY...@comcast.com...
> V guvax) frrz gb fgebatyl fhttrfg vg vf *abg* bire orgjrra gurz.
Va Frysyrff, ubjrire, gur vzcyvpngvba bs gur raqvat vf gung vg'f qbar.
Gung'f jung V'z erfcbaqvat gb urer.
Guvf vf nyfb jurer gur rzbgvbany cbjre bs gung raqvat vf, VZB, gur terngrfg.
Jung unccraf yngre vf - qvssrerag. Fbzr erfvqhny nssrpgvba gung jbhyq arire
tb njnl. N zbzrag bs yngre qbhog naq dhvpx erpbtavgvba gung, lrnu, vg
ernyyl jnf bire.
Gur terng ybir fgbel ernyyl vf qbar. Vg'f whfg gung gur fgbel pbzcryf gurz
gb pbagvahr orvat nebhaq rnpu bgure, fb byq zrzbevrf znxr vg n fybccl raq
engure guna gur pyrna oernx bs arire frrvat rnpu bgure ntnva.
OBS
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Willow can work white magic if she takes her time but when she nedes to
> reach for power quickly, she gets a head full of the Black stuff. Would
> I be too strange if i mentioned that I think Evil Dark Magick Willow
> is just as cute and adorable as yellow crayon computer hacker Wllow?
Physically, not so wild about the veiny period, but if you're just
talking about "Villains" Willow, count me on the strange wagon too. In
terms of dialogue and mannerisms, she just gets cuddlier the more evil
she gets. Breaking from what may or may not be the popular consensus,
Dark Willow is about ten times more fun than Vamp!Willow, about whom
I've never understood the big deal.
-AOQ
John Briggs
Nobody believes that - certainly not Drew Goddard.
--
John Briggs
John Briggs
Because that was what they said on the commentary. They may have been
wrong.
--
John Briggs
Arbitrar Of Quality
> The whole Aud thing was
> actually researched very carefully. Back in viking times there was a
> chief called Olaf, whose wife Aud was well known for being good with
> money. :)
Hey, that's cool. That seems to be the writers' approach to history -
don't worry too much about getting it exactly right, but draw as many
cool/obscure allusions from it as possible.
> Yes #2 is the real one - and we see that Spike is perfectly lucid with
> the faux one, and then gets all confused and crazy when the real one
> shows up. (Many people were cross that the nice Buffy turned out to be
> fake, but 'nice' ain't going to help. The real Buffy is a lot colder,
> but also more practical.)
So in other words, Buffy's also channelling the way the staff think of
themselves? (Giving Spike what he needs, not what he wants.)
> > It's the
> > combination of Xander's somewhat fair issues with being shut out, and
> > monstrously unfair accusations of being an uncaring killer that trigger
> > her "I KILLED ANGEL!" explosion.
>
> *goosebumps* And she's standing there, with bloody scratches on her
> shoulders from her most recent fight...
Oh yeah, forgot to mention the scratches. Making the scene just a
little better.
-AOQ
Don Sample
"John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> 3. He sets it in the 1905 Revolution, but includes a burning Palace in St
> Petersburg, and a reference to storming/razing the Winter Palace - neither
> of which happened.
At what point do we see any burning palaces, or does anyone mention any
burning palaces?
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Arbitrar Of Quality
Mike Zeares wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > threads.
> >
> >
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Seven, Episode 5: "Selfless"
> > Writer: Drew Goddard
> > Director: David Solomon
> >
> > Maybe I should start saying, based on a complete lack of any kind of
> > evidence, that Joss was heavily involved in writing this one.
>
> Goddard said in the commentary that the one scene he really needed help
> on was the final one, between Anya and Xander. He was overwriting it.
> It took someone, i.e. Joss, who knew the characters and the actors
> inside-out to get it.
>
> > So there's a bout of spider-killing, itself an enjoyable battle,
> > which leads into one of those ever-popular scenes in which our friends
> > get to sit around yelling at each other. And it just may be the best
> > one yet.
>
> [snip]
>
> > That conversation ends with Brendon's delivery on "there
> > has to be another way" suggesting that he sees that, and Buffy's
> > convincing and earnest "then please find it." Ye gods, what a
> > great scene.
>
> Yeah, it went to 11. One thing that strikes me is Buffy's sadness.
> She really doesn't want to do what she's determined she has to do.
> Someone else pointed out the parallel with the scene in Becoming where
> Xander accuses Buffy of just wanting her boyfriend back. He was always
> quick to jump on Buffy for not wanting to do the hard thing with Angel.
> Xander, meet Karma. Or something.
>
> > One of the episode's most unorthodox moments comes when Anya is
> > abruptly stabbed through the heart to close act three. My eyes popped
> > wide open there. And then act four spends like three minutes taking us
> > back to Sunnydale, 2001. Can't say I saw that coming.
>
> I vaguely remember my jaw hanging open for the entire scene, with a
> sort of goofy half grin. Until the hard cut at the end, which really
> hit me.
>
> > So...
> >
> > One-sentence summary: An episode for all seasons.
> >
> > AOQ rating: SUPERLATIVE
>
> Color me stunned. I didn't think I'd ever see that.
>
> > [Season Seven so far:
> > 1) "Lessons" - Good
> > 2) "Beneath You" - Decent
> > 3) "Same Time, Same Place" - Excellent
> > 4) "Help" - Good
> > 5) "Selfless" - SUPERLATIVE]
>
> Is it fair to say that S7 is clicking with you?
I'd say so. Or would have at the time I wrote this review. Except
that the next episode is "Him..."
-AOQ
Don Sample
"John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Elisi wrote:
> > John Briggs wrote:
> >> vague disclaimer wrote:
> >>> In article <cPwOg.15340$cx....@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net>,
> >> 2. Drew Goddard doesn't realise that this rules out Cecily having
> >> become Halfrek, and deliberately sets the scene in "Selfless" in the
> >> 20th century to leave that option open.
> >> 3. He sets it in the 1905 Revolution, but includes a burning Palace
> >> in St Petersburg, and a reference to storming/razing the Winter
> >> Palace - neither of which happened.
> >>
> >> Remember, "Drew Goddard is an idiot" doesn't explain why 1905 rather
> >> than 1917.
> >
> > The writers are flawed and often rubbish at history/maths. Just
> > remember that we have Spike declaring to be 126 in S4 (1999), and is
> > later revealed to have been sired in 1880, which is just silly.
>
> Yes, but that doesn't explain 1905. Even Hollywood scriptwriters (or,
> depending on your political persuasion, especially Hollywood scriptwriters)
> would know that the Russian Revolution was in 1917.
But there was a revolt in 1905. And that revolt started with a protest
outside the Winter Palace, that was violently broken up by the Russian
army, killing or injuring about a thousand of the protesters. At the
time we see Anya and Halfrek, the revolt is still in progress. They
have no way of knowing that it will be suppressed.
John Briggs
Er, no. St Petersburg was pretty peaceful, apart from the Tsarist troops
massacring peaceful protesters.
--
John Briggs
Don Sample
"John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
And it was a nice play, apart from Lincoln getting shot.