AOQ Review 6-14: "As You Were"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Six, Episode 14: "As You Were"
(or "Guess who's trying to keep himself amused while writing about
this episode?")
Writer: Douglas Petrie
Director: Douglas Petrie
The teaser starts out with a solid slab of comedy, with the one-sided
discussion of the Machiavellian politics of Doublemeat, From there,
though, the opening sequences soon turn rather reheated. The joke
about the smell getting on everything, well, let's just say that its
prominence is disproportionate to its humor value. After that, we've
got two pairs of Möbius Twins to get through. Although I've enjoyed
most of the episodes this year, part of the problem I'm having with
this season is that a lot of the character arcs seem to involve a lot
of repetition, to the point where it's like the same scene over and
over. This is most prominent in the Buffy/Spike and Buffy/Dawn
interactions; the former do a variation on their usual scene, which is
pretty good, and the latter do the same, which is pretty bland.
Well, with things getting this electric, why not throw in a universally
beloved ex cast member like Champ Meatstack (TM Hines)? When we first
meet Riley, he's thrown himself completely into the military world,
to the point where he barely takes a breath between lines, let alone
does any of the "nice smiling farmboy" routine. Personal history
is personal history, but there's a mission to do, step to it. I'm
of mixed feelings about this conceptually. On the plus side, given the
way most characters on the show seem to be hung up on the past, it's
worth seeing someone having gone their own way with barely a look back.
I don't know if it says anything about the Buffy/Riley relationship
that, for better or for worse, neither seems to have spent too much
time thinking about the other after the first few weeks apart. On the
minus side, why bring back a character whose main role on the show by
the time he left was to be Buffy's Boyfriend if their interactions
are going to be so impersonal? Because, my god, do the early parts
drag. Exposition, exposition, fake military talk, exposition. The
conversation in the car feels especially strange; my thought processes
watching it were something like this: "Wait, they're doing
quick-talking wry banter. I don't remember them ever doing wry
banter before. But then again, I don't remember much about how they
used to talk to each other, because their relationship was so damn
boring that I've blocked most of it out of my mind. I'm not going
to devote any more neurons to this."
There's some sloppy writing at work too. The near-kiss and excuses
to get the two physically close seem dissonant, since this episode is
not about rekindled sparks. The only purpose of doing that, and even
of having the events of AYW occur in the order they do, is so that it
can be a big dramatic shock when we meet Mrs. Finn. That's thus a
flat moment. And the show actually raises the question of why Riley
wouldn't get around to mentioning that Buffy shouldn't pound the
demon o' the week into Special Sauce, but fails to give a
satisfactory answer.
Eventually things pick up some. I think the introduction of side-order
guest character Sam helps, despite the fact that she herself doesn't
stand out much. It's the effect on the others that works. Our hero
has decided that she's not going to be petty about things, both of
them are determined to be professionals and give each other a chance,
so of course the show gives them as much time as possible to get in
each other's way. Willow's contributions are easily the funniest
part of the episode. "Just so you know? I'm prepared to hate this
woman any way you want." Heh. Same response to the closing "what
a bitch." And I like how the little speech about how hard it is to
give up magic could work equally well as inspirational words or the
exact opposite.
My favorite moment comes when (after an atypically tender B/S moment in
which her rarely-admitted neediness comes out) someone finally bursts
in on them in bed. And doesn't care. It's hard to explain why
exactly it's so funny to see Spike slightly taken aback, naked and
blustering about his sexual prowess, taking something like three or
four times to grasp the concept that Soldier Boy is mostly interested
in the eggs. It's entertaining, though. Buffy actively in denial
over the evil evil thing doing something wrong is interesting. I feel
like part of her cognitive dissonance is that she can't quite wrap
her head around the idea that once someone's earned her affection and
trust, he's still capable of doing bad things. And as for Riley
during this and the scene afterward ("you want me to say that I liked
seeing you in bed with that idiot?... Buffy, none of that means
anything. It doesn't touch you") I think I've finally, and much
belatedly, found an adjective for him. He's not always "nice"
and he's certainly not "normal," but he's uncomplicated. That
sometimes served to make him seem bland compared to the textured
personalities around him, but on occasions like this one, it means that
he can provide a straightforward explanation for most things. Said
answer is often not entirely or at all correct, but the others can
still benefit from a dose of simplicity. If I could ignore "The Yoko
Factor" (and I always leap at the excuse to ignore it), flying into a
jealous rage over Buffy being with someone else wouldn't be his style
at all, even though jealousy was such a big part of his time with and
breakup with her.
And that's enough to be worth a chance to give a character a happy
sendoff for once, do the proper goodbyes that the writers have been
denying for a year. But the bun on either side of this episode's
sandwich isn't about Riley, it's about the Slayer and her vampire
boyfriend getting back together and breaking up, twelve times
consecutively. Okay, so actually it's only once. Spike even quips
about the repetition. This time Buffy takes a different tack, and to
me it's worth noting the differences between this speech and the past
ones. In "Dead Things," behavior that was simply selfish (but
which represented what she could become) made her lash out -
"there's nothing good in you," and so on. Here, actual criminal
behavior that could endanger people's lives inspires a bit of
self-examination and an attempt to be fair to Spike... or that's what
her words say, anyway. Time to not blame him for being a demon, and to
stop seeing him because offering feelings that "aren't real" as a
substitute for love isn't fair to anyone, including him. I don't
know yet whether it's properly guided or not, but it seems like at
least an attempt to actually do something about the whole
hating-herself thing and address some of the root causes.
Quickie thoughts:
This is one of those times where the episode's title is perfect.
All I remember about the action sequences is that I thought they were
pretty good.
Sam's backstory takes a long time to give, doesn't contribute much,
and raises a whole bunch of questions about whether the writers really
imagine that people often go directly from Peace Corps to Special
Forces. Also, I think there's probably a regulation against married
couples going on solo missions together, although I could be making
that up.
The wedding's coming up soon, huh? Time flies when you're having
fun. The jokes about the families' colliding being a disaster are
best heard rather than seen, as they are here.
Memo to the chopper operator: I know you want to do the big stupid
dramatic shot, but it really would seem less hazardous and not
particularly time-consuming to let them climb all the way in before
swooping away into the night.
This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
- "You got a safe-house?" "I have a house. I think it's safe.
Sometimes you can't even leave."
Oh, by the way, Buffy gets a rejection letter from her former school.
It's clearly from them, since it mentions "re-admission." The
abbreviation used in said letter? "UCSD." Sorry, RRH.
So...
One-sentence summary: Could stand to be more at ease.
AOQ rating: Decent
[Season Six so far:
1) "Bargaining" - Decent
2) "After Life" - Good
3) "Flooded" - Decent
4) "Life Serial" - Good
5) "All The Way" - Good
6) "Once More, With Feeling" - Excellent
7) "Tabula Rasa" - Good
8) "Smashed" - Decent
9) "Wrecked" - Good
10) "Gone" - Decent
11) "Doublemeat Palace" - Decent
12) "Dead Things" - Good
13) "Older And Faraway" - Good
14) "As You Were" - Decent]
Elisi
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 14: "As You Were"
> (or "Guess who's trying to keep himself amused while writing about
> this episode?")
> One-sentence summary: Could stand to be more at ease.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
Well everyone has a least-favourite episode. This is mine. *Someone*
let Doug Petrie's Riley love go unchecked, and this was the result. I
don't mind stupid, silly episodes (Triangle), and I don't mind 'bad'
episodes (Bad Eggs) - but I do mind when the plot just doesn't make
sense.
See I'm fine with Riley, and I quite like Sam. I'm even fine with the
writers using them as a tool for breaking up Spike and Buffy. The
repetition of everything that drags this season is annoying, but I can
cope with it. What I _can't_ tolerate is the whole 'Doctor' business.
Anyway, here's my arguments for why Spike wasn't 'The Doctor'. Based
quite simply on what we see on screen and what we know of the
characters:
Firstly though, a couple of points for all you who dislike Spike.
1) I'm _glad_ that Buffy broke up with him - the relationship was
beyong unhealthy.
2) I'm _not_ trying to make Spike look good.
- Spike has many good qualities, but he isn't a very good organiser.
He was obviously fine with having minions, but he bashed them over the
head if they disagreed - not much of a negotiator. He doesn't even have
a phone. I'll never buy that suddenly he's an international
arms-dealer. It's pretty much the last thing Spike would ever
consider (just above becoming a ballerina), and I also will not believe
that Doug Petrie, Riley crush or not, would suddenly alter Spike's
character so much - especially since he did so much to build him up in
the first place in FFL. Added to that, it's never mentioned again,
and international armsdealers don't just quit because one deal falls
through. Also - when did Spike ever have much money? He fixed up his
crypt, yes, but he did that before Buffy was resurrected and we saw him
scavenging for furniture as far back as 'The Replacement' (5.03).
Also - contacts in the demon world? Apart from the occasional poker
game, and killing some for fun, he's never shown to interact with
anyone except Clem, and he hasn't exactly inspired respect in anyone
for years! Not to mention that this dealer is apparently talking to
foreign military powers and Spike doesn't even have a phone! No, I'll
never buy that Spike's the Doctor!
- Now, what I _will_ buy however, is someone (not identifying himself)
asking Spike to store the eggs for a neat sum of money, and him happily
agreeing (without even finding out how to look after them!). Easy cash,
won't interfere with his life at all. (Another point is that Riley
says that this dealer 'is in town'. This implies a temporary stay,
not a long term dweller.)
- Also, Spike is emotions-driven. He has never showed any interest in
money or power before. Quick easy cash - yes. Boardroom stuff - no.
- Lastly, but most importantly, he's a terrible liar (good at twisting
the truth a bit, but blank-faced straight lying - nope). Buffy walks
into his crypt and asks him if he knows who The Doctor is. There is
_no_ reaction - all he's focussed on is Buffy. If he truly was The
Doctor, he'd fib and get her out of there asap, not make love to her on
top of the evidence (he's thick sometimes, but not even he is that
dumb!) Trust me, I watched this bit especially and there's _nothing_.
Not a flicker. I even checked the shooting script and there's
nothing. And since Petrie also directed we can assume he knew what he
was doing (you know what I mean - he was obviously insane or something
when he wrote this, but he was still capable of putting across what he
wanted).
Later when Riley later calls him 'Doctor', Spike just smiles
without a hint of worry. He obviously has no idea who this Doctor guy
is. But - _the second_ the eggs are mentioned, he's stuttering and
covering up as badly as Buffy did at the beginning of the episode re.
the grass-stains. His eyes involuntarily go to the hole leading
downstairs and his whole demeanor changes. (Incidentally, that bit
isn't in the original script - it must have been added to show more
clearly what we're seeing). Also Spike never admits to being The
Doctor - not to mention that a guy called 'Doc' was the cause of what
he considers his single biggest failure. Kind of an odd name to
choose...
So, what's the deal? Basically, it's entirely plausible that Riley (and
a team?) spent the good while between sending Buffy and Sam off
together and finding Buffy at Spike's, finding and taking out The
Doctor and making him disclose the location of the eggs. (Because -
where was Riley? Why did he turn up at Spike's knowing the eggs were
there? There is a large chunk of time missing. And if Spike really was
an international armsdealer, I doubt the army would let him go just
because he happened to be sleeping with a Riley's ex. I'm just
sayin'!)
So, Riley goes to Spike's crypt (suitably irate) and what does he find?
A nightmare come true. And Spike (being Spike) is gloating like an
idiot, basically continuing their conversation from 'Into the Woods'.
Spike was effectively the one who broke up Buffy and Riley (pointing
out Riley's sins), and now Riley has the opportunity to return the
favour. So he twists the truth a tiny bit (and Riley's a good liar,
it's part of his job): He says that Spike is The Doctor. And of course
Buffy believes him... I mean wouldn't you if you had the choice
between Spike (evil) and Riley (trustworthy soldier)? (Don't bother
answering that.)
So what we see is Riley's revenge. (Remember that bit about
Machiavelli at the start? Telling a little lie for the good of the
many?)
I also want to point out that this in no way affects the breakup at the
end. Buffy might even have worked out that Spike wasn't the big guy.
It doesn't matter. It was just Spike being Spike - doing 'evil'
stuff (hiding demon eggs is never a good thing, neither is murdering
people for more than a century... Spike is, as Riley points out, amoral
and opportunistic) - simply put it was a wake up call. But... she
doesn't break up with him because of the demon eggs - but because
seeing him is 'killing her'. (But that is another topic.)
A few other points:
The talk at the end is nice, except for this bit:
Buffy: I never got the chance ... to tell you ... how sorry I was.
About what happened between us.
RILEY: And you never have to.
Gee Mr Finn, how benevolent of you. One would almost think it was
_Buffy's_ fault and not yours! *grumbles*
Oh and Spike never mentioned the smell!
And finally, there is this very interesting parallel to be drawn. From
AYW:
BUFFY: Tell me you love me.
SPIKE: I love you. You know I do.
BUFFY: Tell me you want me.
SPIKE: I always want you. In point of fact-
BUFFY: Shut up.
>From 'Dead Things':
WARREN: Tell me you love me.
KATRINA: I love you, Master.
WARREN: I love you too, baby. Get on your knees.
Another one of those Warren/Buffy points. Except of course their
motives are vastly different, and that Buffy knows that what she's
doing is wrong - and stops.
Apteryx
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> discussion of the Machiavellian politics of Doublemeat, From there,
> though, the opening sequences soon turn rather reheated. The joke
> about the smell getting on everything, well, let's just say that its
> prominence is disproportionate to its humor value.
The smell is important. The episode is about Buffy being brought face
to face with how far she has fallen over the past year. The smell
represents that. She can't smell it, because she's used to it, but it
can be detected by others who haven't become used to it. And of course,
unless they brought Angel back (and he's busy) the most significant
other possible is Riley.
> flat moment. And the show actually raises the question of why Riley
> wouldn't get around to mentioning that Buffy shouldn't pound the
> demon o' the week into Special Sauce, but fails to give a
> satisfactory answer.
That is a major weakness which makes the whole demon hunt seem pretty
silly,
> Eventually things pick up some. I think the introduction of side-order
> guest character Sam helps, despite the fact that she herself doesn't
> stand out much. It's the effect on the others that works. Our hero
> has decided that she's not going to be petty about things, both of
> them are determined to be professionals and give each other a chance,
> so of course the show gives them as much time as possible to get in
> each other's way. Willow's contributions are easily the funniest
> part of the episode. "Just so you know? I'm prepared to hate this
> woman any way you want." Heh. Same response to the closing "what
> a bitch."
The little hypocrite :)
> My favorite moment comes when (after an atypically tender B/S moment in
> which her rarely-admitted neediness comes out) someone finally bursts
> in on them in bed. And doesn't care. It's hard to explain why
> exactly it's so funny to see Spike slightly taken aback, naked and
> blustering about his sexual prowess, taking something like three or
> four times to grasp the concept that Soldier Boy is mostly interested
> in the eggs. It's entertaining, though. Buffy actively in denial
> over the evil evil thing doing something wrong is interesting. I feel
> like part of her cognitive dissonance is that she can't quite wrap
> her head around the idea that once someone's earned her affection and
> trust, he's still capable of doing bad things.
It's been a while since he's mentioned that he's still evil, but just
in case anyone was thinking that that means he's not, we are reminded
of it now.
> substitute for love isn't fair to anyone, including him. I don't
> know yet whether it's properly guided or not, but it seems like at
> least an attempt to actually do something about the whole
> hating-herself thing and address some of the root causes.
Clearly. Someone from her past has reminded her of what she once was,
and how far she has slipped. Whether she succeeds in picking herself up
again we'll have to wait and see, but that is clearly her intent now.
> AOQ rating: Decent
I'd agree with Decent. Thousands would rate it worse. But it is a vital
episode for Buffy's story in season 6, where she realises how far she
has slipped and resolves to get back on track. And there is plenty of
good humour, especially early on. I liked the forlorn "Don't you want
your garbage?" and Buffy's stunned mullet impression when Riley walks
in - "My hat has a cow on it". But much of the actual story telling is
weak - especially where Riley forgets to mention the purpose of the
demon hunt, not to mention the existence of Mrs Finn. It's my 84th
favourite BtVS episode, 12 best in season 6
Apteryx
vague disclaimer
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 14: "As You Were"
> (or "Guess who's trying to keep himself amused while writing about
> this episode?")
> Writer: Douglas Petrie
> Director: Douglas Petrie
>
>
> One-sentence summary: Could stand to be more at ease.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
Blimey.
This one vies with Beer Bad in many, many people's Worst. Episode. Evah!
list.
Anyway, the only way I can defend it (despite a fine closing shot) is
thus:
It wasn't Captain Cardboard and there is no Mrs Cardboard.
The PTB, concerned that Buffy was headed down the Path of Darkness
decided to shock Buffy out of her ennui not by lecturing her, but by
sending avatars of a past love and a ficticious life partner, to show
her an alternative where two people form a bond that is actually good
for each other. Normal people would see through the ruse immediately
(close examination from "the demon is nearly extinct, but has nests from
Paraguay up" and on is all that's needed). But with everyone so
distracted, they can just about pull it off.
Fanwank? Hell yeah!
But it gets the job done for me, OK? And I like Beer Bad.
(Having said that, I re-watched this last night for the first time in
ages and *cough* *splutter*
ended up
*cough* *cough*
rather
*wheeze*
Enj*cough*oying it.
I feel dirty.
--
Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
Michael Ikeda
news:1155979701....@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Six, Episode 14: "As You Were"
>> (or "Guess who's trying to keep himself amused while writing
>> about this episode?")
>
>> One-sentence summary: Could stand to be more at ease.
>>
>> AOQ rating: Decent
>
I, on the other hand, like this episode. It's good both as an arc
episode and a stand-alone. It's got lots of good individual
scenes: Willow and Dawn at the Bronze, Xander and Anya in the car
and later hiding from his relatives, Buffy and Riley driving to the
dam, Willow's interactions with Buffy and Sam, Buffy and Riley near
the end. And, of course, the closing scene with Buffy and Spike.
And one of my favorite lines in the entire series...
"National Forestry Service, we got a wild bear!"
We also get further developments in most of the main plot threads
of the season. Especially Buffy's slow recovery from depression.
In some sense, this episode is at roughly at the same point in
Buffy's recovery as "Anne" was back in Season 3. Buffy's finally
at the point where the right sort of jolt can make an important
difference. She isn't "all better" at the end of the episode, but
just as in "Anne" she's almost there.
>
> A few other points:
>
> The talk at the end is nice, except for this bit:
>
> Buffy: I never got the chance ... to tell you ... how sorry I
> was. About what happened between us.
> RILEY: And you never have to.
One interesting point about this scene is that Buffy seems to have
planned to say something entirely different when she starts her
speech. It looks like she's going to tell him that she had wanted
him to stay in "Into the Woods", realizes this would be a very bad
idea, and shifts into a routine apology.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> discussion of the Machiavellian politics of Doublemeat, From there,
> though, the opening sequences soon turn rather reheated. The joke
> about the smell getting on everything, well, let's just say that its
the point is too emphasise how much her life sucks
when meeting riley again
> is personal history, but there's a mission to do, step to it. I'm
> of mixed feelings about this conceptually. On the plus side, given the
> way most characters on the show seem to be hung up on the past, it's
> worth seeing someone having gone their own way with barely a look back.
actually as sam explains riley was very broken up
but it takes place off camera
also note rileys new scar across his face
hes been in a damage and pain and its left his mark
but his pass that and onto his new life with sam
> trust, he's still capable of doing bad things. And as for Riley
> during this and the scene afterward ("you want me to say that I liked
> seeing you in bed with that idiot?... Buffy, none of that means
> anything. It doesn't touch you") I think I've finally, and much
> belatedly, found an adjective for him. He's not always "nice"
> and he's certainly not "normal," but he's uncomplicated. That
this is the same thing he was saying in the woods
but this time in buffys view shes the slut instead of him
then and now riley sees the whole buffy the good and bad pretty and ugly
he sees her as the whole person who is not perfect
she excites him and she drools in her sleep
shes a great fighter and her mouth stinks in the morning
maybe a reminder of what her life used to be
and someone cracking the door to the light
might draw her away from spikes walking her into the dark
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> Oh, by the way, Buffy gets a rejection letter from her former school.
> It's clearly from them, since it mentions "re-admission." The
> abbreviation used in said letter? "UCSD." Sorry, RRH.
But it also got Buffy's address wrong. I don't know how it managed to
get to her. Maybe she's the only B Summers in Sunnydale.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > The teaser starts out with a solid slab of comedy, with the one-sided
> > discussion of the Machiavellian politics of Doublemeat, From there,
> > though, the opening sequences soon turn rather reheated. The joke
> > about the smell getting on everything, well, let's just say that its
> > prominence is disproportionate to its humor value.
>
> The smell is important. The episode is about Buffy being brought face
> to face with how far she has fallen over the past year. The smell
> represents that. She can't smell it, because she's used to it, but it
> can be detected by others who haven't become used to it.
Yeah, I guess, and Spike doesn't say anything about it either. This
writer has a way of using dumb jokes to carry themes, and it's easy
for someone like me to miss or not be interested in the underlying
meaning because the joke is too dumb. Reminds me of the cheese in "The
Initiative."
> and Buffy's stunned mullet impression when Riley walks
> in - "My hat has a cow on it".
The dialogue tends to emphasize the cow, but the chicken feathers in
the back are the most undignified part of the DP hats, to me.
-AOQ
Don Sample
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
He "organized" this so well that the cops found him before any of his
customers did, and his eggs hatched before he could sell them. I
wouldn't call it a good example of how to organize an arms deal.
> He was obviously fine with having minions, but he bashed them over the
> head if they disagreed - not much of a negotiator. He doesn't even have
> a phone. I'll never buy that suddenly he's an international
> arms-dealer. It's pretty much the last thing Spike would ever
> consider (just above becoming a ballerina), and I also will not believe
> that Doug Petrie, Riley crush or not, would suddenly alter Spike's
> character so much - especially since he did so much to build him up in
> the first place in FFL. Added to that, it's never mentioned again,
> and international armsdealers don't just quit because one deal falls
> through.
When word gets out that the arms dealer has been taken down, the buyers
won't have anything to do with him any more.
> Also - when did Spike ever have much money?
Money was what he was supposed to have *after* the deal went through.
If he had money before it happened, he wouldn't need to get involved in
deals like that.
> He fixed up his
> crypt, yes, but he did that before Buffy was resurrected and we saw him
> scavenging for furniture as far back as 'The Replacement' (5.03).
> Also - contacts in the demon world? Apart from the occasional poker
> game, and killing some for fun, he's never shown to interact with
> anyone except Clem, and he hasn't exactly inspired respect in anyone
> for years! Not to mention that this dealer is apparently talking to
> foreign military powers and Spike doesn't even have a phone! No, I'll
> never buy that Spike's the Doctor!
This is the Spike who got the Order of Turaka to come to town within
days of deciding to hire them, found Marcus to torture Angel for him,
and has done a number of other things. He knows how to get in touch
with things. You can buy pre-paid cell phones at pretty much any corner
store these days.
>
> - Now, what I _will_ buy however, is someone (not identifying himself)
> asking Spike to store the eggs for a neat sum of money, and him happily
> agreeing (without even finding out how to look after them!). Easy cash,
> won't interfere with his life at all. (Another point is that Riley
> says that this dealer 'is in town'. This implies a temporary stay,
> not a long term dweller.)
"I'm holding these for a friend" was a completely transparent lie.
>
> - Also, Spike is emotions-driven. He has never showed any interest in
> money or power before. Quick easy cash - yes. Boardroom stuff - no.
Did you see a boardroom? I didn't see a boardroom.
> - Lastly, but most importantly, he's a terrible liar (good at twisting
> the truth a bit, but blank-faced straight lying - nope). Buffy walks
> into his crypt and asks him if he knows who The Doctor is. There is
> _no_ reaction - all he's focussed on is Buffy. If he truly was The
> Doctor, he'd fib and get her out of there asap, not make love to her on
> top of the evidence (he's thick sometimes, but not even he is that
> dumb!) Trust me, I watched this bit especially and there's _nothing_.
> Not a flicker. I even checked the shooting script and there's
> nothing. And since Petrie also directed we can assume he knew what he
> was doing (you know what I mean - he was obviously insane or something
> when he wrote this, but he was still capable of putting across what he
> wanted).
Spike is an accomplished liar, and has been for over a century.
> Later when Riley later calls him 'Doctor', Spike just smiles
> without a hint of worry. He obviously has no idea who this Doctor guy
> is. But - _the second_ the eggs are mentioned, he's stuttering and
> covering up as badly as Buffy did at the beginning of the episode re.
> the grass-stains. His eyes involuntarily go to the hole leading
> downstairs and his whole demeanor changes. (Incidentally, that bit
> isn't in the original script - it must have been added to show more
> clearly what we're seeing). Also Spike never admits to being The
> Doctor - not to mention that a guy called 'Doc' was the cause of what
> he considers his single biggest failure. Kind of an odd name to
> choose...
>
> So, what's the deal? Basically, it's entirely plausible that Riley (and
> a team?) spent the good while between sending Buffy and Sam off
> together and finding Buffy at Spike's, finding and taking out The
> Doctor and making him disclose the location of the eggs. (Because -
> where was Riley? Why did he turn up at Spike's knowing the eggs were
> there? There is a large chunk of time missing. And if Spike really was
> an international armsdealer, I doubt the army would let him go just
> because he happened to be sleeping with a Riley's ex. I'm just
> sayin'!)
If Riley had already taken out the Doctor, why would he bother calling
Spike "the Doctor"? He turned up at Spike's because he hit Willy's and
a couple of other places asking about "the Doctor" and someone (possibly
several someones) pointed him at Spike.
>
> So, Riley goes to Spike's crypt (suitably irate) and what does he find?
> A nightmare come true. And Spike (being Spike) is gloating like an
> idiot, basically continuing their conversation from 'Into the Woods'.
> Spike was effectively the one who broke up Buffy and Riley (pointing
> out Riley's sins), and now Riley has the opportunity to return the
> favour. So he twists the truth a tiny bit (and Riley's a good liar,
> it's part of his job): He says that Spike is The Doctor. And of course
> Buffy believes him... I mean wouldn't you if you had the choice
> between Spike (evil) and Riley (trustworthy soldier)? (Don't bother
> answering that.)
>
> So what we see is Riley's revenge. (Remember that bit about
> Machiavelli at the start? Telling a little lie for the good of the
> many?)
Now you're just being silly.
burt...@hotmail.com
> - Spike has many good qualities, but he isn't a very good organiser.
Well, back in season 2, he sent one of his minions to die against Buffy
while another one was videotaping the fight so that he could study her
fighting style without exposing himself to risk. That shows at least a
basic level of planning and organizational skill.
Beyond that, though, I agree that Spike as the Doctor doesn't make a
hell of a lot of sense. But there were lots of things this season that
didn't make sense, so this is pretty much par for the course at this
point.
Not too much to say about this episode otherwise. Except that Sam
mentions there were two shamans working with her team who got addicted
to magic, which proves that it's not just the magic that Rack gave
Willow that's addictive.
One Bit Shy
news:1155970267.7...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 14: "As You Were"
It's pretty easy to rip this episode - as I expect a few will. I complained
a bit how the prior episode felt artificial, but compared to this that was
the rawest reality. Here everything's wrapped up neat and tidy with tons of
profound wisdom for everyone to absorb and set their lives back onto the
right track. Everything is so overblown and important and never mind the
stupid stuff like forgetting to tell Buffy that she wasn't supposed to kill
the demon. And, well... I'll let others do that.
The thing is that I really enjoy this episode in spite of its silliness -
maybe because of it. It's kind of my big guilty pleasure in the series.
When Riley suddenly shows up in gear with a scar on his face, totally
involved in his demon hunt while Buffy stands stupefied in totally
contrasting fast food garb, I'm hooked.
Riley: I want to explain, I just don't have time. I've been up for 48 hours
straight tracking something bad, and now it's come to Sunnydale.
Buffy: My hat has a cow.
I guffaw at that. It's so the right thing to say at that moment. Later I
can't help but show a sentimental smile at Buffy's sense of fairyland
unreality to go from flipping burgers to rappelling down a dam wall in the
arms of Riley. I guess that's the slayer version of Cinderella going to the
ball.
And Sam - perfect Sam - Riley's dream wife giving him everything he ever
imagined getting from Buffy, a mean leg kick included. Always finding
exactly the right thing to say to people. She makes Dawn feel grown up.
She eases Xander's tension over wedding planning (indirectly helping Xander
sooth Anya as well). She makes Willow feel good about what she's
accomplished fighting her addiction. Buffy's a harder nut to crack
considering Sam married her boyfriend. But even there she lets Buffy know
she was right to kill the demon, that Riley really did care for Buffy, and
she strokes Buffy's vanity with a groupie like thrill at being in the
presence of the legendary Buffy. Part of me really likes seeing how good
that makes everybody feel. Part of me is reminded of Ted worming his way
into everybody's good graces. And the thing is, I enjoy both feelings a
lot.
I kind of imagine this episode as a Buffy dream. It can't really be that -
Spike's destroyed crypt demonstrates its reality. But it feels that way.
The hero swoops in and rescues her from her insanity to put her back into
the world she's supposed to be in. High adventure fighting the big bad for
the good of humanity. And when it starts to feel like a slap in the face
reminder of what once was but can never be again (like the end of Tabula
Rasa), Riley says exactly the right thing.
Riley: Hey! You want me to say that I liked seeing you in bed with that
idiot? Or that blinding orange is your very best color? Or that that ...
burger smell is appealing?
Buffy: You smelled the smell?
Riley: Buffy, none of that means anything. It doesn't touch you. You're
still the first woman I ever loved ... and the strongest woman I've ever
known. And I'm not advertising this to the missus ... but you're still quite
the hottie.
Buffy: You know, it goes away after many bathings.
Riley: This isn't about who's on top. I know how lucky I am right now. I
love my work, and I love my wife.
Buffy: I know. And I kinda love her too.
Riley: So you're not in the greatest place right now. And maybe I made it
worse.
Buffy: No.
Riley: Wheel never stops turning, Buffy. You're up, you're down ... it
doesn't change what you are. And you are a hell of a woman.
It's a really pat speech. And Buffy's kind of infantile in it (though I do
laugh at it going away after many bathings - something I do imagine
witnessing - heh) as she is through much of the episode. But it's also
something Buffy really needs to hear and incorporate into her of late messed
up state of mind. It doesn't change who she is. And she's a hell of a
woman.
Every once in a while BtVS likes to take an ostensibly real story and
exaggerate it to an absurd degree in order to get across the impression made
upon a character. Xander's impression of the Scoobies in The Zeppo.
Riley's impression of Buffy saving the world in Doomed. I think they're
doing something akin to that here. Riley and Sam probably wouldn't look
anywhere near that perfect to us or anybody else. But that's how it feels
to Buffy. It doesn't matter how fake it plays to us, 'cause it's all magic
to Buffy. Right when she needed a little magic.
Or maybe I'm imagining that. What I do know is that it somehow works for me
and draws me along.
Buffy: Sorry. It's just ... you still carry around all that James Bond
stuff. It's so cute! I forgot.
-------
Riley: Battle gear. Lightweight Kevlar, state of the art.
Buffy: What a surprise.
Riley: Boys like toys. Put it on, thank me later.
Those are just a couple of the little things that help put me into this
positive mood. I love how they trigger good memories for Buffy and just
make her feel good. Something about Riley that was always nice.
Of course the focus of all this becomes Buffy's relationship with Spike.
Part of what traps Buffy in it - keeps her away from the support of her
friends - is her fear of utter humiliation should they find out. So she
can't tell them and keeps running from them to dark places to carry on with
him.
But what could be more humiliating than being caught naked with Spike by
Riley? Riley, the guy she drove away in considerable part because she
couldn't accept his turning to vampires for comfort - to feel. Evidently,
just about anything. For Riley finds no shame there. Kind of a shock until
you realize that Riley's probably the one person who could best understand.
He's been there. And now, in a secure and happy relationship with Sam, he's
freed from the jealousy that might cloud that understanding. Instead he
stands like a beacon showing Buffy that it really is possible to overcome
something like this.
Yet again, something she desperately needed to know.
So we get the ultimate payoff for the episode when she breaks up with
Spike - again - but seemingly more honestly than before. No vindictiveness
here. (Thank you, Riley.) She's decent to Spike. Accepts his nature.
Admits affection. Even calls him William - a reminder of the respect she
eventually offered Spike in S5 when they'd actually found a pretty good
relationship for a while. But she's honest with him too in letting him know
that being with him is destroying her.
Oh, we can also tell this is different, because Spike recognizes it himself.
There's a lot of comment this season about how mean the series has been to
Buffy. Here's one episode that falls all over itself being nice to her. I
don't imagine there's much reason to expect that to continue, but it's worth
noting for now. And I think it makes for a good moment to pause and look at
where Buffy has come since being brought back to life, for I think she's
made some good progress climbing out of her grave. She doesn't want to die
anymore. She's reacquired some of her core principals. She has a lot to do
yet in reconnecting with her friends, but she's moving more that direction
with her closeness with Tara, the simple pleasure of that party (before
being trapped), and her care for Willow. She's moved beyond simply knowing
the time with Spike is wrong, to a better understanding of herself and Spike
and reason to live without him. And this time with Riley is also helping
reconnect herself with her slayerness - the thrill of the battle. A variety
of little and big things that I think show her right now more connected to
the world around her than she has been.
Not that this struggle is over of course.
> So...
> One-sentence summary: Could stand to be more at ease.
> AOQ rating: Decent
It gets a Good from me. This also ends what is sometimes called the slow
middle period - essentially the last 5 episodes - which isn't just a
statement of quality (I think you've given 3 Good ratings during it), but of
obvious movement and excitement. Lots of controversy to come, but I don't
think a whole lot of slow.
OBS
Jeff Jacoby
[snip]
>> substitute for love isn't fair to anyone, including him. I don't
>> know yet whether it's properly guided or not, but it seems like at
>> least an attempt to actually do something about the whole
>> hating-herself thing and address some of the root causes.
>
> Clearly. Someone from her past has reminded her of what she once was,
> and how far she has slipped.
And what she *still* is...if she can only see that for herself.
> Whether she succeeds in picking herself up
> again we'll have to wait and see, but that is clearly her intent now.
>
>
>> AOQ rating: Decent
>
> I'd agree with Decent. Thousands would rate it worse. But it is a vital
> episode for Buffy's story in season 6, where she realises how far she
> has slipped and resolves to get back on track.
I like what they tried to do with the show, but the plotting
was terribly contrived and the execution poor.
Jeff
was so contrived and pathetic
One Bit Shy
news:1155979701....@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> See I'm fine with Riley, and I quite like Sam. I'm even fine with the
> writers using them as a tool for breaking up Spike and Buffy. The
> repetition of everything that drags this season is annoying, but I can
> cope with it. What I _can't_ tolerate is the whole 'Doctor' business.
>
> Anyway, here's my arguments for why Spike wasn't 'The Doctor'. Based
> quite simply on what we see on screen and what we know of the
> characters:
So, if you've figure out this wonderful scenario where everything makes
sense - then why exactly is it that you can't tolerate the Doctor business?
And why exactly is the episode so bad?
I have a similar take on the Doctor, though rather less complicated. I
figure that Riley's informants either had garbled information (Spike was the
only visible player to them), or they made Spike the patsy for the real
Doctor. And there may be some distortions in what we see anyway because I
consider the whole episode to be exaggerated and romanticized according to
Buffy's somewhat bedazzled perspective.
> Buffy: I never got the chance ... to tell you ... how sorry I was.
> About what happened between us.
> RILEY: And you never have to.
>
> Gee Mr Finn, how benevolent of you. One would almost think it was
> _Buffy's_ fault and not yours! *grumbles*
Gee, you read more into that than I do, I guess starting with the
presumption that it's Riley's fault. I think Sam pretty much nailed it when
she said, "There's no bad guys in this one." Buffy *did* consider herself
on the hook for that, and Riley let her free. She doesn't have to apologize
becuase Riley doesn't blame her.
> Oh and Spike never mentioned the smell!
Oh, come on, how else could he sense her through the door in Dead Things?
<g>
OBS
One Bit Shy
news:l64o-1rj5-3110E...@europe.isp.giganews.com...
You don't need to go that far. Think of it like the Zeppo with an
exaggerated feel representing Buffy's romanticized view of what is
happening.
> But it gets the job done for me, OK? And I like Beer Bad.
>
> (Having said that, I re-watched this last night for the first time in
> ages and *cough* *splutter*
>
> ended up
>
> *cough* *cough*
>
> rather
>
> *wheeze*
>
> Enj*cough*oying it.
>
> I feel dirty.
Embrace it.
Hey, if Buffy can wallow in Spike, you can wallow in this episode.
OBS
William George Ferguson
wrote:
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>
>
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Six, Episode 14: "As You Were"
>(or "Guess who's trying to keep himself amused while writing about
>this episode?")
>Writer: Douglas Petrie
>Director: Douglas Petrie
This is a long way from being my favorite Buffy episode, although it's
nowhere near the bottom of the heap either, but as I've said before, even
my least favorite Buffy episodes have good stuff in them. My TIRSBILA for
this ep is
RILEY: Got some, uh, big stories to tell you too, if we ever get half a
second.
BUFFY: Did you die?
RILEY: No.
BUFFY: I'm gonna win.
--
"If someone had told me beforehand that there'd be a Willow/Tara kiss
scene followed by an Angel/Kate shower scene, I'd have had completely
different expectations." - johndiem, alt.tv.angel
alphakitten
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>
>>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>>Season Six, Episode 14: "As You Were"
>>(or "Guess who's trying to keep himself amused while writing about
>>this episode?")
>
>
>>One-sentence summary: Could stand to be more at ease.
>>
>>AOQ rating: Decent
>
>
> Well everyone has a least-favourite episode. This is mine. *Someone*
> let Doug Petrie's Riley love go unchecked, and this was the result. I
> don't mind stupid, silly episodes (Triangle), and I don't mind 'bad'
> episodes (Bad Eggs) - but I do mind when the plot just doesn't make
> sense.
<snip> Agreed on all counts. And that Spike is storing the things at his
crypt...you know...where Buffy traipses in and out at her leisure? Ugh.
Lazy writing, worst episode ever.
~Angel
Michael Ikeda
news:44E7764B...@netscape.net:
Whatever your other objections to the episode, I can't see Spike
storing anything that valuable anywhere OTHER than his crypt. He's
going to keep the stuff where he can watch it. Which means his
crypt.
He just has to make sure to ... distract Buffy so she doesn't go
into the basement.
Eric Hunter
>
> Not too much to say about this episode otherwise. Except that Sam
> mentions there were two shamans working with her team who got addicted
> to magic, which proves that it's not just the magic that Rack gave
> Willow that's addictive.
Well, it proves that Willow isn't the only magic
addict out there, but whether magic is addictive
like crack where anyone who uses it is in real
danger of addiction, or whether it is addictive
like gambling or alcohol where if you are prone
to addictive behavior it is dangerous for you
to partake is unclear. Willow's reaction to
Rack's magic was significantly different than
Amy's, so it seems to say more about Willow,
than about magic.
And of course, this leaves aside the entire
question of whether Willow has embraced, "I'm
an addict, it's not my fault!" as an excuse,
and as a way to avoid having to take
responsibility for her behavior.
Eric.
--
vague disclaimer
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> Anyway, the only way I can defend it (despite a fine closing shot) is
> > thus:
> >
> > It wasn't Captain Cardboard and there is no Mrs Cardboard.
> >
> > The PTB, concerned that Buffy was headed down the Path of Darkness
> > decided to shock Buffy out of her ennui not by lecturing her, but by
> > sending avatars of a past love and a ficticious life partner, to show
> > her an alternative where two people form a bond that is actually good
> > for each other. Normal people would see through the ruse immediately
> > (close examination from "the demon is nearly extinct, but has nests from
> > Paraguay up" and on is all that's needed). But with everyone so
> > distracted, they can just about pull it off.
> >
> > Fanwank? Hell yeah!
>
> You don't need to go that far. Think of it like the Zeppo with an
> exaggerated feel representing Buffy's romanticized view of what is
> happening.
I can see a case for your interpretation, but for me it falls because of
the clumsiness of the Avatar!Riley's story - it's a dead give away....
Or not...
Stephen Tempest
>And of course, this leaves aside the entire
>question of whether Willow has embraced, "I'm
>an addict, it's not my fault!" as an excuse,
>and as a way to avoid having to take
>responsibility for her behavior.
I think calling it an excuse and a way of avoiding responsibility is
rather unfair... Willow *has* now accepted (since 'Wrecked') that her
behaviour was at fault, that Tara had reasonable cause to be unhappy
with her, and that she needs to change her ways. And she is trying
her best to change...
Which still means that her underlying issues with making things go her
way are still festering, of course. But that's a failure to
understand the problem, not a failure to consider it at all.
IMO, naturally.
Stephen
maxims
Elisi wrote:
>>
> Anyway, here's my arguments for why Spike wasn't 'The Doctor'. Based
> quite simply on what we see on screen and what we know of the
> characters:
I never got the impression that we were supposed to think Spike was the
Doctor. Buffy obviously doesn't think he's been moonlighting as an
international arms dealer, except possibly during that moment of shock
when she sees the hatching eggs. Once she's had time to calm down and
have a think, she makes it clear that she doesn't see his "crime" as
anything more than very low-level evil, nothing to get upset about.
Basically, I agree with all your arguments, except that I don't see
them as evidence that the plot is weak, I see them as evidence that the
writers never expected us to believe that Spike was the Doctor.
It's made clear that The Doctor is a big player. Spike? He sits around
and plays kitten poker and is far too busy obsessing about Buffy to
have time to organise massive international demon deals. Big players
don't store the merchandise in their own home. They pay little
players, kitten poker players, to do that, so if the merchandise gets
found, those little guys take the rap. Spike was, indeed "transparently
lying" when he said he was keeping the eggs for "a friend", but all I
took that to mean was that he was being *paid* to store them, by the
Doctor or a middle man, not that he himself was the Doctor.
I just can't see anything in the episode that tells me the writers
wanted me to believe Spike was the Doctor. Sure, Riley says he is, but
characters make mistakes. Just because a character says something
doesn't mean it's true, not unless there's supporting evidence. I don't
think you have to assume a machiavellian Riley to explain why he
accuses Spike - Riley hears from a source (correctly) that the eggs
are at Spike's and jumps to conclusions. He dislikes Spike intensely,
so he's got no particular reason to double-check whether those
conclusions are correct, and when he stumbles on Spike in bed with
Buffy he's got even less reason to hold back.
Unlike AOQ, I don't see Riley as uncomplicatedly unaffected by his
return to Sunnydale and Buffy. On the contrary, we are shown that his
emotions are clouding his judgment - he avoids telling Buffy about his
wife, and he avoids discussing in full the related topic of the demon
he and Sam are chasing. Seeing Buffy again stirs stuff up in him, just
as it does in her, and I think deciding Spike was the Doctor is part of
that.
What I don't see anywhere is a shred of evidence that the show is now
presenting Spike as an international arms dealer, either in this
episode or in any subsequent ones.
maxims
Ian Galbraith
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1155970267.7...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Six, Episode 14: "As You Were"
[snip]
> The thing is that I really enjoy this episode in spite of its silliness -
> maybe because of it. It's kind of my big guilty pleasure in the series.
> When Riley suddenly shows up in gear with a scar on his face, totally
> involved in his demon hunt while Buffy stands stupefied in totally
> contrasting fast food garb, I'm hooked.
> Riley: I want to explain, I just don't have time. I've been up for 48 hours
> straight tracking something bad, and now it's come to Sunnydale.
> Buffy: My hat has a cow.
> I guffaw at that. It's so the right thing to say at that moment.
It reminds me of Rivers line "I swallowed a big" in Serenity. I wonder if
Joss wrote some of the dialogue in AYW?
[snip]
>> So...
>> One-sentence summary: Could stand to be more at ease.
>> AOQ rating: Decent
> It gets a Good from me. This also ends what is sometimes called the slow
> middle period - essentially the last 5 episodes - which isn't just a
> statement of quality (I think you've given 3 Good ratings during it), but of
> obvious movement and excitement. Lots of controversy to come, but I don't
> think a whole lot of slow.
I'd rank it decent. It reminds me of some of the S2 episodes that weren't
great but always had something in them to enjoy. I'm glad there are other
around who like it, for a long time I thought I was the only one.
--
You Can't Stop The Signal
Elisi
> "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1155979701....@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> > See I'm fine with Riley, and I quite like Sam. I'm even fine with the
> > writers using them as a tool for breaking up Spike and Buffy. The
> > repetition of everything that drags this season is annoying, but I can
> > cope with it. What I _can't_ tolerate is the whole 'Doctor' business.
> >
> > Anyway, here's my arguments for why Spike wasn't 'The Doctor'. Based
> > quite simply on what we see on screen and what we know of the
> > characters:
>
> So, if you've figure out this wonderful scenario where everything makes
> sense - then why exactly is it that you can't tolerate the Doctor business?
> And why exactly is the episode so bad?
Because it's clumsy. And because I know that the intended effect was
'Wow! Isn't Riley amazing?' (and trust me on that one - you should read
the descriptions in the shooting script), but the actual effect on the
show is to make Buffy feel two feet tall and dirty. And *that* I hate!
It's the only episode where S6 actually does what everyone suggests and
piles the misery on Buffy _just to make her feel bad_. It's 'Doomed'
once again, with Riley judging Buffy only on what he sees, not knowing
what makes Buffy behave the way she does. I don't hate fictional
characters (because what's the point?) but I really want to hit Riley
over his self-righteous, fat head in this ep.
>
> I have a similar take on the Doctor, though rather less complicated. I
> figure that Riley's informants either had garbled information (Spike was the
> only visible player to them), or they made Spike the patsy for the real
> Doctor. And there may be some distortions in what we see anyway because I
> consider the whole episode to be exaggerated and romanticized according to
> Buffy's somewhat bedazzled perspective.
Ah yes, I have that take too - it's sort of like the Zeppo, but even so
a hollow shadow of that episode.
>
> > Buffy: I never got the chance ... to tell you ... how sorry I was.
> > About what happened between us.
> > RILEY: And you never have to.
> >
> > Gee Mr Finn, how benevolent of you. One would almost think it was
> > _Buffy's_ fault and not yours! *grumbles*
>
> Gee, you read more into that than I do, I guess starting with the
> presumption that it's Riley's fault. I think Sam pretty much nailed it when
> she said, "There's no bad guys in this one." Buffy *did* consider herself
> on the hook for that, and Riley let her free. She doesn't have to apologize
> becuase Riley doesn't blame her.
I see that, but I just wish he'd said something along the lines of 'Me
too.' Yes she was emotionally shut-down, but he was the one who went
out and got himself bitten, the one who gave her that ultimatum, the
one to walk out. I feel that he _does_ owe her an apology, if nothing
else than because it's polite.
>
> > Oh and Spike never mentioned the smell!
>
> Oh, come on, how else could he sense her through the door in Dead Things?
> <g>
Well how could she sense him? He didn't smell! ;)
But, it's the tiny, tiny voice with which Buffy says "You smelt the
smell?" that just breaks my heart and I get very close to throwing
things at the screen because Riley is making her feel awful. I know
that he goes on to make his 'you're still amazing' speech, but why make
her feel ashamed at the good honest work she's doing? (I know it's a
methpor yadda, yadda, but -)
Elisi
Exactly! If he really was an arms dealer then he was the most
incompetent idiot ever. As you go on to point out further down, when
Spike wants something done, he's capable enough. But - he has to have a
motive. Killing Buffy was a motive, getting the Gem of Armarra was a
motive. He's never been interested in money - he likes having it for
blood and fags, and we've seen him 'mug' people for it, but if he
wanted it that badly surely he'd have set up operation years before.
But he didn't - he's never shown any inclination towards working hard
for money, and for the past 2 years all he's focussed on is Buffy. He's
*finally* got her, so now you're suggesting that he goes up and sets
himself up as an armsdealer because he had so much spare time or
something? I'm very much a character oriented viewer, and Spike has _no
motive_ for setting himself up as The Doctor. If he really was such a
big shot, there would have been some sort of set-up within the show.
And followup. There is none.
>
> > He was obviously fine with having minions, but he bashed them over the
> > head if they disagreed - not much of a negotiator. He doesn't even have
> > a phone. I'll never buy that suddenly he's an international
> > arms-dealer. It's pretty much the last thing Spike would ever
> > consider (just above becoming a ballerina), and I also will not believe
> > that Doug Petrie, Riley crush or not, would suddenly alter Spike's
> > character so much - especially since he did so much to build him up in
> > the first place in FFL. Added to that, it's never mentioned again,
> > and international armsdealers don't just quit because one deal falls
> > through.
>
> When word gets out that the arms dealer has been taken down, the buyers
> won't have anything to do with him any more.
>
>
> > Also - when did Spike ever have much money?
>
> Money was what he was supposed to have *after* the deal went through.
> If he had money before it happened, he wouldn't need to get involved in
> deals like that.
Riley says that money has been exchanged.
>
> > He fixed up his
> > crypt, yes, but he did that before Buffy was resurrected and we saw him
> > scavenging for furniture as far back as 'The Replacement' (5.03).
> > Also - contacts in the demon world? Apart from the occasional poker
> > game, and killing some for fun, he's never shown to interact with
> > anyone except Clem, and he hasn't exactly inspired respect in anyone
> > for years! Not to mention that this dealer is apparently talking to
> > foreign military powers and Spike doesn't even have a phone! No, I'll
> > never buy that Spike's the Doctor!
>
> This is the Spike who got the Order of Turaka to come to town within
> days of deciding to hire them, found Marcus to torture Angel for him,
> and has done a number of other things. He knows how to get in touch
> with things. You can buy pre-paid cell phones at pretty much any corner
> store these days.
>
> >
> > - Now, what I _will_ buy however, is someone (not identifying himself)
> > asking Spike to store the eggs for a neat sum of money, and him happily
> > agreeing (without even finding out how to look after them!). Easy cash,
> > won't interfere with his life at all. (Another point is that Riley
> > says that this dealer 'is in town'. This implies a temporary stay,
> > not a long term dweller.)
>
> "I'm holding these for a friend" was a completely transparent lie.
Of course it was. As was the whole 'Eggs? What eggs?' It's just like
'Lovers Walk' when Buffy guessed that Willow and Xander were in the
factory. He covers up so badly it's embarassing. That's my point - he
doesn't cover *at all* when people talk of The Doctor. He has no idea
who that is. Anyway, if he really *was* The Doctor, waiting for his
buyers to arrive any moment, and Buffy comes in asking for him, do you
honestly think he'd not get her out asap?
> >
> > - Also, Spike is emotions-driven. He has never showed any interest in
> > money or power before. Quick easy cash - yes. Boardroom stuff - no.
>
> Did you see a boardroom? I didn't see a boardroom.
Talking to foreign military powers would require tact and
negotiantions.
> > - Lastly, but most importantly, he's a terrible liar (good at twisting
> > the truth a bit, but blank-faced straight lying - nope). Buffy walks
> > into his crypt and asks him if he knows who The Doctor is. There is
> > _no_ reaction - all he's focussed on is Buffy. If he truly was The
> > Doctor, he'd fib and get her out of there asap, not make love to her on
> > top of the evidence (he's thick sometimes, but not even he is that
> > dumb!) Trust me, I watched this bit especially and there's _nothing_.
> > Not a flicker. I even checked the shooting script and there's
> > nothing. And since Petrie also directed we can assume he knew what he
> > was doing (you know what I mean - he was obviously insane or something
> > when he wrote this, but he was still capable of putting across what he
> > wanted).
>
> Spike is an accomplished liar, and has been for over a century.
Even you admit that 'I'm holding them for a friend' is an awful lie.
Either Riley was lying, or someone set Spike up. Otherwise *nothing*
makes sense. And why *wouldn't* Riley get himself a little revenge?
Elisi
because I was in a hurry I just did a cut-and-paste. All your points
are ecxellent too!
Michael Ikeda
news:1156056189....@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>> "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1155979701....@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > See I'm fine with Riley, and I quite like Sam. I'm even fine
>> > with the writers using them as a tool for breaking up Spike
>> > and Buffy. The repetition of everything that drags this
>> > season is annoying, but I can cope with it. What I _can't_
>> > tolerate is the whole 'Doctor' business.
>> >
>> > Anyway, here's my arguments for why Spike wasn't 'The
>> > Doctor'. Based quite simply on what we see on screen and what
>> > we know of the characters:
>>
>> So, if you've figure out this wonderful scenario where
>> everything makes sense - then why exactly is it that you can't
>> tolerate the Doctor business? And why exactly is the episode so
>> bad?
>
> Because it's clumsy. And because I know that the intended effect
> was 'Wow! Isn't Riley amazing?' (and trust me on that one - you
> should read the descriptions in the shooting script), but the
> actual effect on the show is to make Buffy feel two feet tall
> and dirty. And *that* I hate! It's the only episode where S6
> actually does what everyone suggests and piles the misery on
> Buffy _just to make her feel bad_.
No, the intended effect is to have Buffy think "Isn't Riley
amazing!" and contrast that to what she thinks of her own life, so
that Riley's speech near the end has more impact on her.
This episode isn't about piling "misery on Buffy just to make her
feel bad". It's about Buffy taking a decisive step toward her own
recovery.
By analogy to her next longest period of depression, one could say
that she's just left Los Angeles and is on her way back to
Sunnydale...
Rincewind
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Oh, by the way, Buffy gets a rejection letter from her former school.
>> It's clearly from them, since it mentions "re-admission." The
>> abbreviation used in said letter? "UCSD." Sorry, RRH.
>
> But it also got Buffy's address wrong. I don't know how it managed to
> get to her. Maybe she's the only B Summers in Sunnydale.
Well, obviously at this point in the series everybody in Sunnydale knows who
Buffy Summers is.
She is famous, she is on tv every tuesday night...
Rincewind.
--
What I have learned from Buffy:
Dependant upon the scene requirements clothing, stakes, jewelry, etc... may
or may not be dusted along with the vampire.
Elisi
Michael Ikeda wrote:
> No, the intended effect is to have Buffy think "Isn't Riley
> amazing!" and contrast that to what she thinks of her own life, so
> that Riley's speech near the end has more impact on her.
I *know*! That's what's so grating. I'm sorry, but I don't _want_ Riley
to be the big hero, swooping in and setting Buffy right. Angel maybe,
but not Riley. Why the heck *should* she think that Riley 'is amazing'?
Anyway, this post (which contains SPOILERS) goes into more detail. I'm
not that negative, but she has a lot of good and valid points:
Michael Ikeda
news:1156077238.3...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:
>
> Michael Ikeda wrote:
>
>> No, the intended effect is to have Buffy think "Isn't Riley
>> amazing!" and contrast that to what she thinks of her own life,
>> so that Riley's speech near the end has more impact on her.
>
> I *know*! That's what's so grating. I'm sorry, but I don't
> _want_ Riley to be the big hero, swooping in and setting Buffy
> right. Angel maybe, but not Riley. Why the heck *should* she
> think that Riley 'is amazing'?
Because his life seems to going well and hers doesn't.
And it almost HAS to be Riley. From Buffy's point of view, her
friends are SUPPOSED to say nice reassuring things to her, so
compliments from them wouldn't have the same impact. And even if
crossovers were allowed, Angel also wouldn't work because he's in
love with her which means any compliments from him will also be
disregarded by Buffy. And it can't be a stranger, because they
wouldn't know her well enough for her give any weight to what they
say.
Riley, on the other hand, knows her well enough for her to pay
attention to what he says. But they didn't part on the greatest of
terms and so he isn't someone she automatically expects to get praise
from. So what he says has an impact that the same words from (for
example) Xander or Willow or Angel wouldn't.
Elisi
> Later I
> can't help but show a sentimental smile at Buffy's sense of fairyland
> unreality to go from flipping burgers to rappelling down a dam wall in the
> arms of Riley. I guess that's the slayer version of Cinderella going to the
> ball.
Except (as I know you point out), things fall apart - she does the
wrong steps, because he didn't tell her what dance they were dancing,
then lets her know that the 'find yourself a wife' dance was _last_
week, and he's already got someone. And then the clock strikes and
she's left in her rags.
<snip>
> I kind of imagine this episode as a Buffy dream. It can't really be that -
> Spike's destroyed crypt demonstrates its reality. But it feels that way.
> The hero swoops in and rescues her from her insanity to put her back into
> the world she's supposed to be in. High adventure fighting the big bad for
> the good of humanity. And when it starts to feel like a slap in the face
> reminder of what once was but can never be again (like the end of Tabula
> Rasa), Riley says exactly the right thing.
I'm sorry, but I just can't see it like that. He tells her that she
belongs in a ballgown, and really should stop scrubbing floors, it's
ever so unattractive. But even that isn't what's so bad. Having
pondered this I have 2 reasons.
1) Riley was never Prince Charming. He was the boring bland guy from
down the road who Cinderella was dating, then he cheated on her with
one of the ugly stepsisters and ran off. He has *no right* to turn up,
acting like he's a Prince and Cinderella should have chosen him before
he left.
2) All of Buffy's achievements are put down. This season she has
struggled and fought to get back on top of her life, and has managed to
do her Slayer duties, look after Dawn (as of OAFA more successfully)
and the house work, support Willow, get a job to earn desperately
needed money, and - although unhealthy - her relationship with Spike
has afforded her an outlet and a means of re-connecting with that fire
inside (also he never cheated!). Pretty much *all* of these points are
used to show her in a bad light.
I love Buffy, especially when she's hurting, but to see all her growth
that she's gone through during season swept away as horrid stuff 'that
doesn't touch her', makes me angry. I try not to, but it does. Spike
might be evil, but at least he *remembers* that Riley is hardly the
knight in shining armour. Buffy should too.
vague disclaimer
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm sorry, but I don't _want_ Riley
Remind me, what's the Joss saying....?
Elisi
Bwah! :) See I don't mind that they use Riley to facilitate the
break-up. I wish they'd thought of something else, but I understand
perfectly why. It's the 'how' that's so infuriating. As I said to OBS,
Riley was never Prince Charming - he was just this guy who ended up
cheating on Cinderella with one of the ugly step-sisters. Holding him
up as 'The One Who Got Away' (and Buffy apparently agreeing with that
sentiment) sits very badly with me.
Mel
maxims wrote:
Besides, Spike still denies he's the doctor even after they find the
eggs at his place.
Mel
One Bit Shy
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>> "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1155979701....@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> So, if you've figure out this wonderful scenario where everything makes
>> sense - then why exactly is it that you can't tolerate the Doctor
>> business?
>> And why exactly is the episode so bad?
>
> Because it's clumsy. And because I know that the intended effect was
> 'Wow! Isn't Riley amazing?' (and trust me on that one - you should read
> the descriptions in the shooting script), but the actual effect on the
> show is to make Buffy feel two feet tall and dirty. And *that* I hate!
> It's the only episode where S6 actually does what everyone suggests and
> piles the misery on Buffy _just to make her feel bad_. It's 'Doomed'
> once again, with Riley judging Buffy only on what he sees, not knowing
> what makes Buffy behave the way she does. I don't hate fictional
> characters (because what's the point?) but I really want to hit Riley
> over his self-righteous, fat head in this ep.
Wow. That's like 100% opposite how it came across to me. I honestly don't
know how you're coming away with that impression. What I saw was Riley
specifically *not* judging Buffy by what he saw, but rather re-affirming
what he knows her truly to be no matter what the surface indicators may
show. That seemed kind of the biggest point of the episode. Buffy's
initial humiliation when Riley breaks in on her and Spike, and just
generally in seeing Riley again, reflects Buffy's existing self loathing and
fear of what will happen if her friends catch her. Riley's appearance
forces Buffy to face that, but he also cures it by treating her like a hero
(he came to get the help of a hero - and Buffy is the one who killed the
demon spawn at the end) and reminding her of all the special qualities
within her. Riley's appearance is what lets Buffy stop feeling two feet
tall and dirty, a change in perspective that she promptly uses to go break
up with Spike. I'm sorry, but it was Spike that made her feel two feet tall
and dirty. Even if that wasn't his intent.
>> I have a similar take on the Doctor, though rather less complicated. I
>> figure that Riley's informants either had garbled information (Spike was
>> the
>> only visible player to them), or they made Spike the patsy for the real
>> Doctor. And there may be some distortions in what we see anyway because
>> I
>> consider the whole episode to be exaggerated and romanticized according
>> to
>> Buffy's somewhat bedazzled perspective.
>
> Ah yes, I have that take too - it's sort of like the Zeppo, but even so
> a hollow shadow of that episode.
Well, it's not a remake. Just shares similar ideas. One of those ideas is
that the episode is fundamentally a comedy.
>> > Buffy: I never got the chance ... to tell you ... how sorry I was.
>> > About what happened between us.
>> > RILEY: And you never have to.
>> >
>> > Gee Mr Finn, how benevolent of you. One would almost think it was
>> > _Buffy's_ fault and not yours! *grumbles*
>>
>> Gee, you read more into that than I do, I guess starting with the
>> presumption that it's Riley's fault. I think Sam pretty much nailed it
>> when
>> she said, "There's no bad guys in this one." Buffy *did* consider
>> herself
>> on the hook for that, and Riley let her free. She doesn't have to
>> apologize
>> becuase Riley doesn't blame her.
>
> I see that, but I just wish he'd said something along the lines of 'Me
> too.' Yes she was emotionally shut-down, but he was the one who went
> out and got himself bitten, the one who gave her that ultimatum, the
> one to walk out. I feel that he _does_ owe her an apology, if nothing
> else than because it's polite.
No, no, no. The episode isn't really about Riley at all. It's all about
Buffy moving on from the misery she's trapped herself into. One big nagging
guilt in Buffy's life is how she treated Riley. (It doesn't matter how much
is really Riley's fault. Buffy is still consumed by her own guilt.) She's
not looking for an apology. She's looking for absolution - and Riley gives
it to her. That's the message that matters to Buffy, that releases her and
allows her to move on.
I think you're reacting from an external view of how you saw what happened
to their relationship. But this episode is an extremely Buffy-centric
viewpoint - how she feels. For all we know, Riley *did* apoligize, but this
is what Buffy heard - what mattered to her. Do you think everything we saw
in The Zeppo actually happened exactly as shown? I don't. I think it was
all distorted to fit Xander's way of seeing things. Same here.
>> > Oh and Spike never mentioned the smell!
>>
>> Oh, come on, how else could he sense her through the door in Dead Things?
>> <g>
>
> Well how could she sense him? He didn't smell! ;)
>
> But, it's the tiny, tiny voice with which Buffy says "You smelt the
> smell?" that just breaks my heart and I get very close to throwing
> things at the screen because Riley is making her feel awful. I know
> that he goes on to make his 'you're still amazing' speech, but why make
> her feel ashamed at the good honest work she's doing? (I know it's a
> methpor yadda, yadda, but -)
Again, she felt ashamed all on her own. She felt ashamed before he ever
showed up. Riley doesn't make her feel ashamed. Riley lets her understand
that the smell is unimportant. She's still Buffy.
OBS
(It feels weird arguing with you on an episode. Usually we're more in line.
Have you looked in a mirror yet today? Maybe a demon possessed you in your
sleep. <g>)
One Bit Shy
Ah, well I certainly can't help that. But for good or for ill, rightly or
wrongly, Buffy has always felt she screwed up with Riley and treated him
badly. A big reason why we need Riley to do this in the fashion he does is
to release Buffy of that burden - not just to turn her around in this
season's set of problems.
The good news for you is that this lets Buffy be over Riley.
OBS
vague disclaimer
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
Until the *real* Riley turns up!
*flounce*
Wes <>
wrote:
>Every once in a while BtVS likes to take an ostensibly real story and
>exaggerate it to an absurd degree in order to get across the impression made
>upon a character. Xander's impression of the Scoobies in The Zeppo.
>Riley's impression of Buffy saving the world in Doomed. I think they're
>doing something akin to that here.
Thanks for this.
Among other bits, Buffy's trip to the sociology class and her first
day at the Doublemeat have been interesting because I thought they
were Buffy's skewered POV but I never applied that to this ep.
>Those are just a couple of the little things that help put me into this
>positive mood. I love how they trigger good memories for Buffy and just
>make her feel good. Something about Riley that was always nice.
>
He finally (IMO) forces some movement in the B/S situation - twice.
First is when she sees that Riley has moved on and found someone who
loves him and is happy in his life now.
Thinking that must be the key she takes off for Spike's crypt:
BUFFY: (quietly) Tell me you love me.
SPIKE: (surprised) I love you. You know I do.
She takes a couple of steps closer.
BUFFY: Tell me you want me.
SPIKE: (whispers) I always want you. In point of fact-
BUFFY: Shut up.
So the only thing she needs is a boyfriend who loves her?
No, she's still missing something:
RILEY: I know how lucky I am right now. I love my work, and I love my
wife.
The place Riley has reached in his life isn't (only) because Sam loves
him but (mostly) because he loves Sam too.
That's something Buffy doesn't have for Spike.
And of course Riley reminds Buffy who she is:
RILEY: Wheel never stops turning, Buffy. You're up, you're down ... it
doesn't change what you are. And you are a hell of a woman.
>
>Yet again, something she desperately needed to know.
>
One Bit Shy
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>
>> Later I
>> can't help but show a sentimental smile at Buffy's sense of fairyland
>> unreality to go from flipping burgers to rappelling down a dam wall in
>> the
>> arms of Riley. I guess that's the slayer version of Cinderella going to
>> the
>> ball.
>
> Except (as I know you point out), things fall apart - she does the
> wrong steps, because he didn't tell her what dance they were dancing,
> then lets her know that the 'find yourself a wife' dance was _last_
> week, and he's already got someone. And then the clock strikes and
> she's left in her rags.
But she doesn't really want Riley. Not anymore. Letting go of that old
heartache is part of this story too. What matters more is getting back that
feeling of being special. Riley always did treat her as special - whatever
other failings he may have had - and is an excellent vehicle for expressing
that now.
And when the clock strikes and she looks down at her rags - what the story
ends up with is Buffy seeing The Slayer instead. For Cinderella is a
fantasy after all. All of it. Including the rags. When it comes to who
Buffy is, the Doublemeat Palace is just as unreal as Riley. They are parts
of her life that she passes through, not the sum of herself.
>
> <snip>
>
>> I kind of imagine this episode as a Buffy dream. It can't really be
>> that -
>> Spike's destroyed crypt demonstrates its reality. But it feels that way.
>> The hero swoops in and rescues her from her insanity to put her back into
>> the world she's supposed to be in. High adventure fighting the big bad
>> for
>> the good of humanity. And when it starts to feel like a slap in the face
>> reminder of what once was but can never be again (like the end of Tabula
>> Rasa), Riley says exactly the right thing.
>
> I'm sorry, but I just can't see it like that. He tells her that she
> belongs in a ballgown, and really should stop scrubbing floors, it's
> ever so unattractive.
He doesn't tell her to do anything or not do anything. He's just saying
that whatever problems she's going through, she's still the strongest woman
that he's ever known. Helping her find herself again - which is, after all,
kind of a big part of the season - not telling her what to do.
> But even that isn't what's so bad. Having
> pondered this I have 2 reasons.
>
> 1) Riley was never Prince Charming. He was the boring bland guy from
> down the road who Cinderella was dating, then he cheated on her with
> one of the ugly stepsisters and ran off. He has *no right* to turn up,
> acting like he's a Prince and Cinderella should have chosen him before
> he left.
Wow, again. This is *not* a message that she should have chosen him. She
already thought that - ever since Riley left. This is when she gets over
it. When she actually says goodbye. This Prince Charming swept in to tell
Buffy that he was OK - and that so was she. Buffy wanted and needed to hear
both of those messages.
> 2) All of Buffy's achievements are put down. This season she has
> struggled and fought to get back on top of her life, and has managed to
> do her Slayer duties, look after Dawn (as of OAFA more successfully)
> and the house work, support Willow, get a job to earn desperately
> needed money, and - although unhealthy - her relationship with Spike
> has afforded her an outlet and a means of re-connecting with that fire
> inside (also he never cheated!). Pretty much *all* of these points are
> used to show her in a bad light.
No they're not. Riley is not denigrating her achievements. Buffy had done
that quite well on her own, thank you. She's the one who doesn't see them
as achievements. She's the one who is ashamed by it. Ashamed by it before
Riley ever showed up. Riley's the one who tells her there's no shame. He's
the one who tells her that hard times doesn't make her less of a woman.
That's something Buffy wasn't getting - until now.
> I love Buffy, especially when she's hurting, but to see all her growth
> that she's gone through during season swept away as horrid stuff 'that
> doesn't touch her', makes me angry.
I'm proud of what Buffy has accomplished too. But the thing is, Buffy
isn't. Or wasn't before now. Buffy was ashamed. That's what Riley was
talking about when he said it didn't touch her. Directly denying the notion
that he found Buffy pathetic - pathetic being her word, not his. Of course
he doesn't like some of the things she's done - now that would be over the
top unreality - but he doesn't think the less of her for it.
> I try not to, but it does. Spike
> might be evil, but at least he *remembers* that Riley is hardly the
> knight in shining armour. Buffy should too.
Just knight for a day.
OBS
One Bit Shy
That one's too anemic from his bloodsucking whores to ever show up in
Sunnydale. So Buffy's romantic dream Riley is probably safe from exposure.
OBS
Arbitrar Of Quality
Wes <> wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 14:56:45 -0400, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry>
> wrote:
>
> >Every once in a while BtVS likes to take an ostensibly real story and
> >exaggerate it to an absurd degree in order to get across the impression made
> >upon a character. Xander's impression of the Scoobies in The Zeppo.
> >Riley's impression of Buffy saving the world in Doomed. I think they're
> >doing something akin to that here.
>
> Thanks for this.
>
> Among other bits, Buffy's trip to the sociology class and her first
> day at the Doublemeat have been interesting because I thought they
> were Buffy's skewered POV but I never applied that to this ep.
I can't say this idea has stood out to me anywhere except in "The
Zeppo," but it's an interesting thought. It's not "canon," but it's a
valid way to think about it all. Riley's excessive James Bond stuff
and rapid-fire military babble at the beginning, for instance, would
fit right in to that.
-AOQ
peachy ashie passion
I am afraid that is more your prejudice against Riley than something
based in the show.
peachy ashie passion
Nah, she's still over him. Either way.
Michael Ikeda
news:12ehht0...@news.supernews.com:
> "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1156082147.4...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>> I love Buffy, especially when she's hurting, but to see all her
>> growth that she's gone through during season swept away as
>> horrid stuff 'that doesn't touch her', makes me angry.
>
> I'm proud of what Buffy has accomplished too. But the thing is,
> Buffy isn't. Or wasn't before now. Buffy was ashamed. That's
> what Riley was talking about when he said it didn't touch her.
> Directly denying the notion that he found Buffy pathetic -
> pathetic being her word, not his. Of course he doesn't like
> some of the things she's done - now that would be over the top
> unreality - but he doesn't think the less of her for it.
Precisely. This episode is about BUFFY taking a major step toward
full recovery. Not just by breaking off a highly dysfunctional
relationship with Spike, but also by starting to see herself and her
situation in a more positive light for the first time since she came
back.
And Riley is almost the ideal person to be a catalyst for this
development. Close enough that she might pay attention to what he's
saying, not so close that she can dismiss it as just the sort of
empty reassurance that friends sometimes give.
And, of course, all of this only mattered because Buffy had already
recovered to a point where she was ready to hear what Riley was
saying.
Rowan Hawthorn
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 14: "As You Were"
> (or "Guess who's trying to keep himself amused while writing about
> this episode?")
> Director: Douglas Petrie
>
> Willow's contributions are easily the funniest
> part of the episode. "Just so you know? I'm prepared to hate this
> woman any way you want." Heh. Same response to the closing "what
> a bitch."
Agree. And I kinda enjoyed Willow and Dawn's conversation in the Bronze.
One (and *only* one) Buffy-Riley exchange gets an "okay" check mark from me:
RILEY: I hear ya. Got some... big stories to tell you to. If we ever get
half a second.
BUFFY: Did you die?
RILEY: No.
BUFFY: I’m going to win.
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Could stand to be more at ease.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
>
If I were going to drop any episode from the series, this is the one
that would get the axe...
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Rowan Hawthorn
Yes. Maybe if I apply that idea, I can dredge it above "compost heap
material," because Mr & Mrs Finn, SuperSpies were so reminiscent of the
deliberately bad Bond parodies of the Sixties, I'd really *like* to
think it was meant that way, and not to be taken seriously...
Wes <>
8th from the bottom for me but it could climb a little if this works.
Writing is still bad IMO so I doubt it'll move much.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> know how you're coming away with that impression. What I saw was Riley
some people want to be offended
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
Arbitrar Of Quality
Well, regardless of how it was intended, if you can enjoy it as a joke,
no problem with thinking of it that way.
-AOQ
Elisi
> (It feels weird arguing with you on an episode. Usually we're more in line.
> Have you looked in a mirror yet today? Maybe a demon possessed you in your
> sleep. <g>)
Hee! Yes it does feel odd. I like your spin on it (because I'm an
eternally optimistic person), the problem being that the episode
doesn't show me if that's what's real.
See it all comes back to the *stupid* 'Doctor'. It's obvious that it
_isn't_ Spike, but my view of Riley hinges on _why_ he says that it's
Spike:
1) Was he set up by the real villian (like maxims suggests), and tore
off in a huff as soon as he heard Spike's name, without thinking about
the fact that Spike isn't really the type to be an international
armsdealer? In which case your interpretation is fine.
2) Did he find the real Doctor, then went off to destroy the eggs at
Spike's? And then seeing Buffy there he lied about Spike being The
Doctor. (Which is where the whole Machiavelli thing from the start
comes in.) In that case I find it a lot harder to warm to his
wholesomeness and nice speeches.
Because in the latter case he *does* judge Buffy, and decides to go
over her head to 'help her' in a very patronising way (as well as
getting a belated revenge on Spike). It makes Riley a lot more
intersting of course, but less sympathetic. The problem is that I have
no clue what I'm 'supposed' to think - and this is where the writing is
to blame.
peachy ashie passion
If it is any help for you to decide, Riley tearing off without
thinking is in character for him, Riley having the gumption and quick
thinking to come up with that level of a lie is not.
rrh...@acme.com
Don Sample wrote:
> In article <1155970267.7...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Oh, by the way, Buffy gets a rejection letter from her former school.
> > It's clearly from them, since it mentions "re-admission." The
> > abbreviation used in said letter? "UCSD." Sorry, RRH.
>
> But it also got Buffy's address wrong. I don't know how it managed to
> get to her. Maybe she's the only B Summers in Sunnydale.
I have always considered this a midlin' bad episode. It doesn't get my
juices flowing one way or the other, but I understand why some people
dislike it. But that was before I had the "UCSD" letter pointed out to
me...
The thing of it is, I would expect a writing a production crew based in
southern California to know that "UCSD" is in San Diego. Sure, LA
types largely ignore San Diego, but still...
Has anyone ever made up some "UC Sunnydale" stickers for car windows?
I could see buying one of those.
Richard R. Hershberger
Elisi
Yeah, but then this is Doug Petrie we're talking about, he of the giant
man-crush, who likes to make Riley all dark and stuff... or at least
tries. ;)
Mostly I think I'll just go back to forgetting about it.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> threads.
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 14: "As You Were"
> (or "Guess who's trying to keep himself amused while writing about
> this episode?")
> Writer: Douglas Petrie
> Director: Douglas Petrie
.
> over. This is most prominent in the Buffy/Spike and Buffy/Dawn
> interactions; the former do a variation on their usual scene, which is
> pretty good, and the latter do the same, which is pretty bland.
In the teaser, the B/S and B/D sections work neatly together. After a
miserable evening, Buffy and Spike have a quickie outside her house.
Minutes later, when Dawn leaves for the Bronze, Buffy tells her "Have a
good time ... someone should." She may be drawn to Spike, but she isn't
exactly having a good time with him. Her unhealthy secret love/using
thing is right down there with her job as one of the signs that her life
is going the wrong way. Just in case there's any doubt about that.
> I don't know if it says anything about the Buffy/Riley relationship
> that, for better or for worse, neither seems to have spent too much
> time thinking about the other after the first few weeks apart.
I wouldn't read too much into it. After those first few weeks, Buffy was
distracted by her mother's death, the threat from Glory, and then her own
death and resurrection. As for Riley, Sam says that Riley talked a lot
about Buffy, though of course we don't know how much of that was Slayer
stuff and how much was more personal.
> Eventually things pick up some. I think the introduction of side-order
> guest character Sam helps, despite the fact that she herself doesn't
> stand out much.
Sam always grates on me a little. I don't *hate* her, but there is a
little more grateage for me than I think the writers intended. Just a
little too bright and chipper without enough humor or irony to balance it
out. But I agree with AOQ, it's the effect she has on the others that
works. The most important of these is of course Buffy: Sam is almost
tailor-made (well, she IS tailor-made, by the writers) to make Buffy feel
inadequate. Sure, no one can really match the Slayer, but Sam is a
professional demon fighter, and at the same time she's happy and fulfilled
in her work and her love life, something Buffy can barely even dream of at
this point.
Interesting that Riley, who felt inadequate in his relationship with
Buffy, went on to marry a woman who is more or less his equal partner in
monster-fighting, rather than a damsel in distress.
As with Doublemeat Palace, I'm glad to I'm not the only one here who
didn't hate the episode. It's nice, not feeling all alone.... Some of
the plot weaknesses, especially Riley's failure to tell Buffy not to kill
the demon, were bad enough to pull AYW down by a full AOQ grade level.
On the other hand, I found Spike's demon egg scheme quite amusing, and
none of the arguments I've seen about how Spike can't be the Doctor have
convinced me. It fits in perfectly with his established pattern of coming
up with a semi-clever plan but lacking the patience or attention to detail
necessary to pull it off, seen in School Hard, Lovers' Walk, The Yoko
Factor/Primeval, and probably other times.... I liked most of Riley and
Buffy's scenes together, especially the final one.... And the scene where
Buffy breaks up with Spike was very well done. Spike takes the end
surprisingly well, but the Buffy-Spike storyline might just possibly not
be over yet.
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
Willow: "You know, when I was little, I used to spend hours imagining what
my wedding to Xander would be like. And now I look at them, I just think
'Nyah hah hah!'"
Riley: "Look, this isn't the way I wanted it. But something's come up,
something big. We don't have much time. You understand?"
Buffy: [nodding] "Not a word you've said so far."
Spike about his crypt getting searched: "This is ... unconstitutional, is
what it is!"
> AOQ rating: Decent
Agreed.
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
Elisi
OK, I think I've pinpointed why this episode irks me so, and why your
explanation doesn't do it for me. I'm not saying it's wrong, but
essentially it comes down to this:
Buffy in Riley and Sam gets a giant big metaphor showing her what she
can't ever have with Spike. The metaphor also very kindly tells her
that she *deserves* better - deserves the happiness she can see. So she
dumps Spike.
This is what it works out from Buffy POV whatever we think, so that's
fine as far as it goes. It's not dissimilar to 'Lovers Walk' ("What I
want from you I can never have..."). But it's painfully simplistic. Yes
there are simple episodes in S6 (DMP to name one), but they are usually
selfcontained eps, dealing with one thing and wrapping it up (Buffy
gets a job). AYW is when Buffy _stops seeing Spike_, the end of a
fascinatingly complex and mutually damaging relationship... and why?
Because of some idiotic demon eggs and Buffy remembering that Spike was
eeeevil (not that she holds it against him, but she finds the strenght
to say no to his wicked charms).
It's like IWMTLY with Riley as April. Execpt April was cuter. (How can
he be Prince Charming when he isn't charming? Well except to Buffy.
Usually I have no problems feeling what Buffy feels - in AYW I do. A
lot. Riley just doesn't do it for me, and I think he's meant to. Stupid
Petrie.)
So again - what is an episode as *important* as this one doing, being
as simple as one from S1? In S6 which is all about the charcter's past
deeds coming back to haunt them, about people's flaws making them
behave very badly indeed, about choices and consequences... it doesn't
fit! If it really is that simple and is meant to be, then I just have
to write off Dough Petrie's good episodes as lucky flukes (and getting
help). But to make AYW sit comfortably amongst its fellow episodes and
carry the same themes, I *have* find layers. More than the whole thing
being seen though Buffy's star-struck eyes.
And this is where Riley gets to be Machiavelli. And where Spike's role
in breaking up Buffy and Riley comes back to bite him. Hard. No one
knows about the vamp-ho's, as far as we can tell. Giles might have
guessed, but I'm as certain as I can be that Buffy never told her
friends. But Spike found out, and Spike used his information to
humiliate Riley and Riley almost staked him because of it - he figured
out (*way* before anyone else) that Spike was in love with Buffy - he
could recognise a rival. He couldn't think of anything better than the
plastic stake back then, and that was kinda pathetic. But here in AYW
he has the most shining opportinity when he walks in on the two of
them... it's beautiful and simple and will accomplish many things at
the same time. He'll say that Spike is The Doctor - it should hopefully
shock Buffy so much that she'll stop seeing him. And then Spike would
be without Buffy, just like Riley was. And then Buffy can find someone
else, someone *good enough* for her - he makes darn sure to build her
up as much as he can.
You're welcome to disagree (as you probably will), but this way it ties
in with the rest of the season much better - Spike's past action
rebounds on him (rather than it being the *idiotic* eggs being the
reason), and Riley's tendency (*need*) to be the protector and the one
Buffy can trust and turn to runsaway with him in a rather unpleasant
fashion.
To quote a post by theohara (which has a far more intricate theory than
mine), here's Machiavelli:
"Well, Machiavelli's famous for writing "The Prince", one of the main
points of said work (I paraphrase because I care) being that people can
be pretty dumb, and sometimes the ruler (as the smarter person who
knows what is better for aforementioned dumb people) is required to do
some really ethically grey stuff in order to cattle-prod the stupid
towards the greater good."
It's an intersting post, though and I'd recommend it very much
(although it contains SPOILERS!!!):
http://theohara.livejournal.com/162286.html
Incidentally here's a different post that expounds on your theory about
Buffy's POV (also SPOILERS!):
Lydia Nickerson
>Don Sample wrote:
>> He "organized" this so well that the cops found him before any of his
>> customers did, and his eggs hatched before he could sell them. I
>> wouldn't call it a good example of how to organize an arms deal.
>Exactly! If he really was an arms dealer then he was the most
>incompetent idiot ever.
As Buffy said to Riley: It can't be Spike. He's too incompetent.
>> Spike is an accomplished liar, and has been for over a century.
Only sometimes. Remeber the scene in Buffy's bedroom when Riley catches
him with Buffy's sweater?
>> Now you're just being silly.
>Either Riley was lying, or someone set Spike up. Otherwise *nothing*
>makes sense. And why *wouldn't* Riley get himself a little revenge?
Well, Riley isn't always the sharpest bulb on the tree, either. But I
like this theory of it being Riley's revenge -- though if so, what with
it being Riley, I'm betting it was planned out before he caught Buffy in
bed? Crypt? with Spike.
--
----
Lydia Nickerson ly...@demesne.com ly...@dd-b.net
Lydia Nickerson
>Riley, on the other hand, knows her well enough for her to pay
>attention to what he says. But they didn't part on the greatest of
>terms and so he isn't someone she automatically expects to get praise
>from. So what he says has an impact that the same words from (for
>example) Xander or Willow or Angel wouldn't.
God help us all, Riley may be the closest thing she's ever had to a
hero. And Sam, well, Sam's gotta look to a hero to Buffy, and Riley
loves Sam, and -- well, the whole thing is a bit gross, really, but
Buffy's love for Riley has always been a bit unholy. I'd say that her
relationship with Riley was less healthy than her relationship with
Spike. At least, she was always real with Spike. Real cruel,
sometimes, but that's never really been a drawback as far as Spike was
concerned.
(Harmony) Watcher
<rrh...@acme.com> wrote in message
news:1156168159....@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
--
==Harmony Watcher==
rrh...@acme.com
Good question. Unlike everyone else one usenet, I don't claim to be an
expert in copyright law. Can you copyright the name of the fictional
institution? Does the estate of H.P. Lovecraft get a cut of any
Miskatonic U. merchandise? Heck if I know.
In any case, I froogled this since I previously posted. There is some
outfit doing, in my opinion, a rather poor job. They abbreviate it as
"UC[sun]D" with a picture of a sun, which is just wrong, and it misses
the feel of a real university sticker. feh
Richard R. Hershberger
Jeff Jacoby
>
><rrh...@acme.com> wrote in message
[snip]
>> Has anyone ever made up some "UC Sunnydale" stickers for car windows?
>> I could see buying one of those.
>>
> Does one need Fox's permission to sell such?
It's possible you may have to get UC's permission (but
since they're a public entity maybe not).
Getting back to the original school abbreviation issue,
if UC decided to build a Sunnyvale campus (a real town,
near San Jose) would they abbreviate it UCSV?
Jeff
One Bit Shy
news:SaKdnZ8bhO4KM2jZ...@comcast.com...
I think it should be either UCSunnyvale or UCS. The campuses in two word
cities all get four letter abbreviations. But most of the one word cities
don't get abbreviated that way. UCDavis, UCIrvine, UCMerced. Riverside is
called UCR. Berkeley is usually called just Berkeley. With the UC included
it's called UC Berkeley with a space in the middle. (Presumably, fictional
Sunnydale should be like that too.)
OBS
Don Sample
rrh...@acme.com wrote:
But the UC[sun]D is a logo that UCSunnydale used. You see it on Buffy's
books in "The Freshman" among other things.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
rrh...@acme.com
It is? I'll have to go back and watch more closely. That just pushes
my grumbling back to the producers, who also (and I think this is how
this subthread started...) used "UCSD", as if there weren't a UC campus
in San Diego.
Jeff Jacoby
> "Jeff Jacoby" <jja...@not.real.com> wrote in message
> news:SaKdnZ8bhO4KM2jZ...@comcast.com...
>> On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 08:26:26 GMT, (Harmony) <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
>>>
>>><rrh...@acme.com> wrote in message
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>>> Has anyone ever made up some "UC Sunnydale" stickers for car windows?
>>>> I could see buying one of those.
>>>>
>>> Does one need Fox's permission to sell such?
>>
>> It's possible you may have to get UC's permission (but
>> since they're a public entity maybe not).
>>
>> Getting back to the original school abbreviation issue,
>> if UC decided to build a Sunnyvale campus (a real town,
>> near San Jose) would they abbreviate it UCSV?
>
> I think it should be either UCSunnyvale or UCS.
My point exactly.
> The campuses in two word
> cities all get four letter abbreviations. But most of the one word cities
> don't get abbreviated that way. UCDavis, UCIrvine, UCMerced. Riverside is
> called UCR. Berkeley is usually called just Berkeley.
"Cal" is also used often.
> With the UC included
> it's called UC Berkeley with a space in the middle. (Presumably, fictional
> Sunnydale should be like that too.)
Jeff
rrh...@acme.com
Jeff Jacoby wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 12:47:48 -0400, One <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> > "Jeff Jacoby" <jja...@not.real.com> wrote in message
> > news:SaKdnZ8bhO4KM2jZ...@comcast.com...
> >> On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 08:26:26 GMT, (Harmony) <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>><rrh...@acme.com> wrote in message
> >>
> >> [snip]
> >>
> >>>> Has anyone ever made up some "UC Sunnydale" stickers for car windows?
> >>>> I could see buying one of those.
> >>>>
> >>> Does one need Fox's permission to sell such?
> >>
> >> It's possible you may have to get UC's permission (but
> >> since they're a public entity maybe not).
> >>
> >> Getting back to the original school abbreviation issue,
> >> if UC decided to build a Sunnyvale campus (a real town,
> >> near San Jose) would they abbreviate it UCSV?
> >
> > I think it should be either UCSunnyvale or UCS.
>
> My point exactly.
>
> > The campuses in two word
> > cities all get four letter abbreviations. But most of the one word cities
> > don't get abbreviated that way. UCDavis, UCIrvine, UCMerced. Riverside is
> > called UCR. Berkeley is usually called just Berkeley.
>
> "Cal" is also used often.
"Cal" is used almost always in the context of football. Possibly other
sports as well: I don't know. This is an artifact of the time when it
was the only UC campus. But it would sound odd in other contexts. If
you asked me what UC campus I went to, I would answer "Santa Barbara".
I would expect someone who went to Berkeley to answer "Berkeley". I
would take an answer of "Cal" as being snotty.
Jeff Jacoby
>
> Jeff Jacoby wrote:
>> On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 12:47:48 -0400, One <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
[snip]
>> > The campuses in two word
>> > cities all get four letter abbreviations. But most of the one word cities
>> > don't get abbreviated that way. UCDavis, UCIrvine, UCMerced. Riverside is
>> > called UCR. Berkeley is usually called just Berkeley.
>>
>> "Cal" is also used often.
>
> "Cal" is used almost always in the context of football. Possibly other
> sports as well: I don't know.
The broadcasters in the Bay Area always referred to the
school, and all its teams, as "Cal".
> This is an artifact of the time when it
> was the only UC campus. But it would sound odd in other contexts. If
> you asked me what UC campus I went to, I would answer "Santa Barbara".
> I would expect someone who went to Berkeley to answer "Berkeley". I
> would take an answer of "Cal" as being snotty.
Maybe. But lots of merchandise (tee-shirts, sweatshirts,
caps, mugs, etc.) has just "Cal" written in big bold script.
The people I've known who attended Berkeley frequently said
they went to "Cal" when asked. I always took it as an
expression of tradition rather than snottiness.
Jeff
One Bit Shy
Any way you look at it, Berkeley is a special case. Sunnydale wouldn't be -
unless Hellmouth was part of its name.
OBS
Don Sample
rrh...@acme.com wrote:
> Jeff Jacoby wrote:
> > "Cal" is also used often.
>
> "Cal" is used almost always in the context of football. Possibly other
> sports as well: I don't know. This is an artifact of the time when it
> was the only UC campus. But it would sound odd in other contexts. If
> you asked me what UC campus I went to, I would answer "Santa Barbara".
> I would expect someone who went to Berkeley to answer "Berkeley". I
> would take an answer of "Cal" as being snotty.
The only University that uses "Cal" regularly in its name that I know of
is CalTech, and it's not part of the University of California.
William George Ferguson
>In article <1156964246.5...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> rrh...@acme.com wrote:
>
>> Jeff Jacoby wrote:
>
>> > "Cal" is also used often.
>>
>> "Cal" is used almost always in the context of football. Possibly other
>> sports as well: I don't know. This is an artifact of the time when it
>> was the only UC campus. But it would sound odd in other contexts. If
>> you asked me what UC campus I went to, I would answer "Santa Barbara".
>> I would expect someone who went to Berkeley to answer "Berkeley". I
>> would take an answer of "Cal" as being snotty.
>
>The only University that uses "Cal" regularly in its name that I know of
>is CalTech, and it's not part of the University of California.
CalPoly (both California Polytechnic University aka CalPoly-Pomona and
California Polytechnic State University aka CalPoly-San Luis Obispo, both
generally referred to just as CalPoly except when needing to differentiate
between them) has always included 'Cal' in the name.
--
"Timothy Dalton should get an Oscar and
beat Sean Connery over the head with it!"
-The Other Guy (you know, Tucker's brother)