AOQ Review 4-7: "The Initiative"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Four, Episode 7: "The Initiative"
(or "If you introduce a flare gun in act three, is it required to go
off in act four?")
Writer: Douglas Petrie
Director: James A. Contner
"The Initiative" is equal parts intriguing and lame. From the
start, the teaser sets the stage for these vicissitudes (I've been
wanting an excuse to work that word into a review for months). On the
lame side of things, we get the first of many examples of a writer who
just does not know when to quit with a gag. We can't just have a
character spill stuff or make a mess once, we have to hammer it home,
over and over, as if to pulverize any last vestiges of potential humor
out of it. On the interesting side, Spike is obsessed with Buffy
again, and he's a prisoner of our unknown masked guys. Roll credits,
and hey, it's the series' first mid-season main cast change. And
it's a change that ought to shake things up. I'll miss Oz, though.
Willow is understandably still sulky after the last episode, so they
drag her to a party. I thought Buffy was done with leaving patrolling
to people who can't handle it, for frivolous reasons. There are only
two reasons to do something like this: re-treading old ground, or
laboriously setting up a joke at the expense of making sense. This
episode does the latter of these pretty often.
One of TI's main stories concerns Spike and the titular Initiative.
Apparently the Rat who helps him out was the one captured at the end of
"The Freshman;" I can't really tell the background vamp-faces
apart. They rather quickly make a getaway, and in a classic Spike
moment, he thinks of himself first ("new plan; we split up...").
There's also a nice scene in which he and Harmony are reunited, and
instantaneously return to their old patterns of use, need, and kink.
Spike's increasingly fake-sounding affectionate names for her are
especially fun.
The less successful big story is about Riley and his growing feelings
for our hero, which he mainly works out from a distance in bland
conversations with Forrest and The Other Guy, and later with Willow.
He's portrayed primarily as yet another big-n'-ripped but shy type.
Obviously the revelations about him later in the episode might add a
little life to the character, but in any case, he desperately needs
some. Actually, the Riley/Willow dynamic is more interesting than the
Riley/Buffy one - mostly because of Willow, of course. I quite like
her deadpan summary of love, ending with "it feels like the whole
world's made for you two, and you two alone, until the day one of you
leaves and rips the still-beating heart from the other, who's now a
broken, hollow, mockery of the human condition." And yet another
ATBVS handle/sig makes its appearance: "remember, if you hurt her, I
will beat you to death with a shovel. A vague disclaimer is nobody's
friend. Have fun!"
Most telegraphed joke of the week: Riley chatting up Buffy only to wuss
out and talk about the assigned reading. Komedy.
Meanwhile, we simultaneously provide more alleged humor and clunkily
move the plot along with a girly-fight between Xander and Harmony. I
hate to be the nitpicky one whining about "consistency," but now
that we're in the fourth season here, would it kill us to establish
once and for all a relative idea of how good Xander is in a fight? I
don't care which way it tilts, just pick one and stick with it. This
episode also establishes that his military training has now more or
less completely atrophied to the point where he can't even open a
gun, despite this not being the kind of skill one would be expected to
forget entirely. And despite the fact that he was still good enough
just a few months ago to train and organize a fairly skilled volunteer
army, after a year and a half of non-practice. (Yes, I did know/accept
that this'd be a continuity nightmare back in "Innocence" when it
was introduced, but it's still a little annoying.)
Well, as it turns out, Riley and his friends are part of the
Initiative. I like how they keep with the off-duty bullshitting as
they make their way into the compound, and then snap into soldier mode
once they meet their superior. The plotting has been very good,
actually; we're inclined to cheer for Spike and anyone else we
recognize when the enemies are mysterious masked guys, and then it
turns out that they've been among us all year, and are coming up with
a way to render vampires harmless without excess violence. Not such a
bad vocation (although I could see this going in a _Clockwork Orange_
kind of direction... just an idea, though). Walsh as the commander
makes sense to me too. I have no idea how the commandos get signaled
in case of emergency, though.
Buffy runs out to confront the Big Bad, but he visits her room instead.
And, in a great little touch, Willow casually tells whoever's
dropping by to "come in." Ouch. The genuine suspense of going to
commercial with Willow getting bitten, in a situation where we know
that no one who could save her is in range, is sabotaged as we come
back into the worst moment of the show. Spike can't feed, and
doesn't know why. And Willow tries to help him talk through it. You
know, I get this vague sense, for no reason at all, that there just
might be some subtext here. It's almost as if they're playing the
scene like it's about something than neck-biting. Wouldn't that
just be wacky and fun? Mrs. Quality feels that it was funny for about
two lines, or fifteen seconds, or something like that. I'm of the
opinion that it never got around to getting funny at all. Either way,
the joke has no right to be taking up two and a half minutes of my time
(I timed it). Yet again the episode writes the characters to fit the
scenes rather than the other way around; Willow offers to *let Spike
bite her again in a little while*. That's terrible writing, and
I'm speaking as someone who had no problem with "there, there"
from "Lovers Walk." But of course, if Willow weren't transformed
into a moron, we couldn't have our oh-so-hilarious little bit, and
that would be a greater loss.
The fight in the hallway is a bit of a throwback to the bad old days of
insufficient lighting. Not too egregious, though.
During the scenes in which the Initiative unit is watching Buffy, I
made the comment that "interesting stuff is happening, but it's not
interesting to watch." That's the way I feel about this episode.
It seems to be an important episode, and it sets up a plenty of things
that have the potential to become good stories, but TI itself is
weighed down a lot by inconsistency, some bad comedy, and too many
moments of plain, simple boringness.
This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
- "Every man faces this moment. Here. Now. Watching. Waiting.
[etc]" "Oh, shut up."
Random note: Spike thinks a lot about the Slayer and muses deliriously
about her, but not a single mention of Dorkus that I can recall.
So...
One-sentence summary: Hit and miss.
AOQ rating: Decent
[Season Four so far:
1) "The Freshman" - Good
2) "Living Conditions" - Decent
3) "The Harsh Light Of Day" - Good
4) "Fear Itself" - Decent
5) "Beer Bad" - Weak
6) "Wild At Heart" - Excellent
7) "The Initiative" - Decent]
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> move the plot along with a girly-fight between Xander and Harmony. I
its official
you have no sense of humor
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
Apteryx
news:1145788818....@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Four, Episode 7: "The Initiative"
> (or "If you introduce a flare gun in act three, is it required to go
> off in act four?")
I'd have gone with "Sometimes Chekhov's gun is just a gun"
>
> The less successful big story is about Riley and his growing feelings
> for our hero, which he mainly works out from a distance in bland
> conversations with Forrest and The Other Guy, and later with Willow.
> He's portrayed primarily as yet another big-n'-ripped but shy type.
> Obviously the revelations about him later in the episode might add a
> little life to the character, but in any case, he desperately needs
> some. Actually, the Riley/Willow dynamic is more interesting than the
> Riley/Buffy one - mostly because of Willow, of course. I quite like
> her deadpan summary of love, ending with "it feels like the whole
> world's made for you two, and you two alone, until the day one of you
> leaves and rips the still-beating heart from the other, who's now a
> broken, hollow, mockery of the human condition." And yet another
> ATBVS handle/sig makes its appearance: "remember, if you hurt her, I
> will beat you to death with a shovel. A vague disclaimer is nobody's
> friend. Have fun!"
And the cheese. Hopefully you didn't miss the cheese motif.
> Meanwhile, we simultaneously provide more alleged humor and clunkily
> move the plot along with a girly-fight between Xander and Harmony. I
C'mon, allegedly? I often fast forward through the longer fight sequences,
but this is an all time fight classic, worth the price of admission alone.
When will we see its like again?
>
> Buffy runs out to confront the Big Bad, but he visits her room instead.
> And, in a great little touch, Willow casually tells whoever's
> dropping by to "come in." Ouch. The genuine suspense of going to
> commercial with Willow getting bitten, in a situation where we know
> that no one who could save her is in range, is sabotaged as we come
> back into the worst moment of the show. Spike can't feed, and
> doesn't know why. And Willow tries to help him talk through it. You
> know, I get this vague sense, for no reason at all, that there just
> might be some subtext here. It's almost as if they're playing the
> scene like it's about something than neck-biting. Wouldn't that
> just be wacky and fun? Mrs. Quality feels that it was funny for about
> two lines, or fifteen seconds, or something like that. I'm of the
> opinion that it never got around to getting funny at all. Either way,
> the joke has no right to be taking up two and a half minutes of my time
> (I timed it). Yet again the episode writes the characters to fit the
> scenes rather than the other way around; Willow offers to *let Spike
> bite her again in a little while*. That's terrible writing, and
> I'm speaking as someone who had no problem with "there, there"
> from "Lovers Walk." But of course, if Willow weren't transformed
> into a moron, we couldn't have our oh-so-hilarious little bit, and
> that would be a greater loss.
I'm with Mrs Quality here. It does go on too long, and Willow offering to
let Spike bite her would be a bridge too far if that bridge hadn't already
been crossed on length alone, but at the start of that gag, fun was
definitely had.
> The fight in the hallway is a bit of a throwback to the bad old days of
> insufficient lighting. Not too egregious, though.
Essential in this case.
> During the scenes in which the Initiative unit is watching Buffy, I
> made the comment that "interesting stuff is happening, but it's not
> interesting to watch." That's the way I feel about this episode.
> It seems to be an important episode, and it sets up a plenty of things
> that have the potential to become good stories, but TI itself is
> weighed down a lot by inconsistency, some bad comedy, and too many
> moments of plain, simple boringness.
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pbc gur oynzr sbe frggvat hc cyragl bs guvatf gung orpnzr penc, gb fhpu na
rkgrag gung znal znl or cerwhqvprq ntnvafg guvf rcvfbqr fvzcyl orpnhfr vg
ornef gur anzr Gur Vavgvngvir
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
To me it is comfortably in Good territory. The 30th best BtVS episode, 6th
best in Season 4
Espen Schjønberg
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Four, Episode 7: "The Initiative"
> One-sentence summary: Hit and miss.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
I hoped you would comment on the conclusion: "The implant works" . How
on earth can the initiative-people know this? They didn't talk with
Willow! (Which in itself must have been a weirdness. Why shouldn't they
sort out which room this had been about? Hope this don't count as a
spoiler, though. I guess it sort of is. :-/ )
Actually, what they know is only that it worked not good enough to stop
Spike from clocking their doctors!
Apart from that: I thought the bite-scene was good. How a girl loses her
witt when it is needed. I do believe this is actually accurat.
Unfortunately. Except -Willow did not totally lose it.
I don't think I like this writer, either. Whenever something he wrotes
is good, it seems to turn out the lines has been rewritten by Joss
Whedon himself. Luckily, that happened a lot. :-)
--
Espen
Noe er Feil[tm]
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> > bite her again in a little while*. That's terrible writing, and
> > I'm speaking as someone who had no problem with "there, there"
> > from "Lovers Walk." But of course, if Willow weren't transformed
> > into a moron, we couldn't have our oh-so-hilarious little bit, and
> > that would be a greater loss.
>
> I'm with Mrs Quality here. It does go on too long, and Willow offering to
> let Spike bite her would be a bridge too far if that bridge hadn't already
> been crossed on length alone, but at the start of that gag, fun was
> definitely had.
willow is in empathy mode
and so concerned with comforting him
that she tosses out the try again in half hour without realizing the consequences
a few seconds later when she does realize the consequeinces
she clocks him with the lamp
Michael Ikeda
news:VFJ2g.16072$JZ1.6...@news.xtra.co.nz:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1145788818....@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
>>review
>> threads.
>>
>>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Four, Episode 7: "The Initiative"
>> (or "If you introduce a flare gun in act three, is it required
>> to go off in act four?")
>
(snipped)
Willow's seriously in moping mode. And it seems to be oscillating
her between self-pity and trying to solve everyone else's problems.
Even when the problem is one that she eventually realizes she
doesn't really want solved.
One interesting note from the episode commentary is that writer
Doug Petrie had what one could call a "reverse Joss Whedon moment"
during the filming. Apparently Aly really liked some portion of
the episode and, presumably having had the experience multiple
times of complimenting the writer only to discover it was a Joss
Whedon addition, decided to compliment Joss directly. Joss
mentioned this to Doug, who recognized the high compliment but
still rushed down to the set to tell Aly that the portion that she
had complimented really had been his lines.
Doug doesn't specify which portion, but that bit of the commentary
is located during the part of the Spike/Willow scene after the
commercial break.
(Note that the episode commentary contains multiple spoilers for
later episodes.)
(snipped)
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
drifter
>> Meanwhile, we simultaneously provide more alleged humor and clunkily
>> move the plot along with a girly-fight between Xander and Harmony. I
Best. Fight. Scene. EVER!
> its official
> you have no sense of humor
Way, way, way, WAY back in freshman English, we were
assigned to read True Grit. On the test there was this
question: "Name a scene from the book that you thought
was funny." I thought the scene where the little girl picked
up the bad guy's big gun and shot him in the stomach was
so funny, I actually laughed out loud when I read it.
My teacher, Ms. Titus, marked that response WRONG.
I argued that you couldn't really mark an *opinion* question
wrong (since she asked for something *I thought* was funny,
it could only be wrong if I didn't *really* think it was funny)
but she wouldn't budge. In retaliation, I didn't even read the
next book, "The Yearling," and just made up all the answers to
the test on it (got a couple right anyway). Yeah, THAT taught
her.
Moral: A sense of humor is totally subjective.
--
Kel
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own."
MBangel10 (Melissa)
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Four, Episode 7: "The Initiative"
> (or "If you introduce a flare gun in act three, is it required to go
> off in act four?")
> Writer: Douglas Petrie
> Director: James A. Contner
>
> "The Initiative" is equal parts intriguing and lame. From the
> start, the teaser sets the stage for these vicissitudes (I've been
> wanting an excuse to work that word into a review for months). On the
> lame side of things, we get the first of many examples of a writer who
> just does not know when to quit with a gag. We can't just have a
> character spill stuff or make a mess once, we have to hammer it home,
> over and over, as if to pulverize any last vestiges of potential humor
> out of it. On the interesting side, Spike is obsessed with Buffy
> again, and he's a prisoner of our unknown masked guys. Roll credits,
> and hey, it's the series' first mid-season main cast change. And
> it's a change that ought to shake things up. I'll miss Oz, though.
Oz is a great character and I can't blame you. However, with the
addition of Spike it definitely adds a bit of fuel to the fire.
>
> Willow is understandably still sulky after the last episode, so they
> drag her to a party. I thought Buffy was done with leaving patrolling
> to people who can't handle it, for frivolous reasons. There are only
> two reasons to do something like this: re-treading old ground, or
> laboriously setting up a joke at the expense of making sense. This
> episode does the latter of these pretty often.
Yes, but I like the simplified version. Buffy feels bad for her friend.
Buffy wants to cheer that friend up. So, Buffy takes friend to party,
patrolling for one night be damned.
>
> One of TI's main stories concerns Spike and the titular Initiative.
> Apparently the Rat who helps him out was the one captured at the end of
> "The Freshman;" I can't really tell the background vamp-faces
> apart. They rather quickly make a getaway, and in a classic Spike
> moment, he thinks of himself first ("new plan; we split up...").
> There's also a nice scene in which he and Harmony are reunited, and
> instantaneously return to their old patterns of use, need, and kink.
> Spike's increasingly fake-sounding affectionate names for her are
> especially fun.
I chuckle when Spike calls Harmony his "mentholated pack of smokes",
every time I see it. Also, the whole "watch the head" moment, because it
left me wondering what happened to him.
>
> The less successful big story is about Riley and his growing feelings
> for our hero, which he mainly works out from a distance in bland
> conversations with Forrest and The Other Guy, and later with Willow.
> He's portrayed primarily as yet another big-n'-ripped but shy type.
Graham. He starts out as a stereotypical character but at least by the
end of the episode they add one layer.
> Obviously the revelations about him later in the episode might add a
> little life to the character, but in any case, he desperately needs
> some. Actually, the Riley/Willow dynamic is more interesting than the
> Riley/Buffy one - mostly because of Willow, of course. I quite like
> her deadpan summary of love, ending with "it feels like the whole
> world's made for you two, and you two alone, until the day one of you
> leaves and rips the still-beating heart from the other, who's now a
> broken, hollow, mockery of the human condition." And yet another
> ATBVS handle/sig makes its appearance: "remember, if you hurt her, I
> will beat you to death with a shovel. A vague disclaimer is nobody's
> friend. Have fun!"
I also got a chuckle out of the scene when Willow is trying very (non)
discretely to kick Buffy's weapons bag under the bed. Riley notices and
offers to help do it for her. He was so caught up in how to impress
Buffy it never occurred to him what was in the bag.
>
> Most telegraphed joke of the week: Riley chatting up Buffy only to wuss
> out and talk about the assigned reading. Komedy.
"Cheese?"
>
> Meanwhile, we simultaneously provide more alleged humor and clunkily
> move the plot along with a girly-fight between Xander and Harmony. I
> hate to be the nitpicky one whining about "consistency," but now
> that we're in the fourth season here, would it kill us to establish
> once and for all a relative idea of how good Xander is in a fight? I
> don't care which way it tilts, just pick one and stick with it. This
> episode also establishes that his military training has now more or
> less completely atrophied to the point where he can't even open a
> gun, despite this not being the kind of skill one would be expected to
> forget entirely. And despite the fact that he was still good enough
> just a few months ago to train and organize a fairly skilled volunteer
> army, after a year and a half of non-practice. (Yes, I did know/accept
> that this'd be a continuity nightmare back in "Innocence" when it
> was introduced, but it's still a little annoying.)
The Xander and Harmony fight is one of my favorite funny moments of the
show. The slapping, the hair pulling, the slo-mo and the count to three
bits made me laugh through this entire scene. Wow. Define funny? 'Cause
if that ain't it, I don't know what is.
I thought the Xander and Giles scene was a well done continuity moment.
The fact that the memories were never real in the first place gives me
no problem with the idea that his military training won't be inside his
head forever.
>
> Well, as it turns out, Riley and his friends are part of the
> Initiative. I like how they keep with the off-duty bullshitting as
> they make their way into the compound, and then snap into soldier mode
> once they meet their superior. The plotting has been very good,
> actually; we're inclined to cheer for Spike and anyone else we
> recognize when the enemies are mysterious masked guys, and then it
> turns out that they've been among us all year, and are coming up with
> a way to render vampires harmless without excess violence. Not such a
> bad vocation (although I could see this going in a _Clockwork Orange_
> kind of direction... just an idea, though). Walsh as the commander
> makes sense to me too. I have no idea how the commandos get signaled
> in case of emergency, though.
It doesn't sound bad at all, does it? I find it funny that Walsh is the
commander yet she freaked out over the wild dogs in WAH.
>
> Buffy runs out to confront the Big Bad, but he visits her room instead.
> And, in a great little touch, Willow casually tells whoever's
> dropping by to "come in." Ouch. The genuine suspense of going to
> commercial with Willow getting bitten, in a situation where we know
> that no one who could save her is in range, is sabotaged as we come
> back into the worst moment of the show. Spike can't feed, and
> doesn't know why. And Willow tries to help him talk through it. You
> know, I get this vague sense, for no reason at all, that there just
> might be some subtext here. It's almost as if they're playing the
> scene like it's about something than neck-biting. Wouldn't that
> just be wacky and fun? Mrs. Quality feels that it was funny for about
> two lines, or fifteen seconds, or something like that. I'm of the
> opinion that it never got around to getting funny at all. Either way,
> the joke has no right to be taking up two and a half minutes of my time
> (I timed it). Yet again the episode writes the characters to fit the
> scenes rather than the other way around; Willow offers to *let Spike
> bite her again in a little while*. That's terrible writing, and
> I'm speaking as someone who had no problem with "there, there"
> from "Lovers Walk." But of course, if Willow weren't transformed
> into a moron, we couldn't have our oh-so-hilarious little bit, and
> that would be a greater loss.
You dare mock the impotence joke. I remember the cut-away with Spike
blaring the radio, tossing Willow onto the bed violently and then
attacking her as one of the most vividly scary segments of the show so far.
The cut-back scene with Spike sitting on the bed and Willow leaning back
(without having been bitten) and them having one of the silliest, and
most fun conversations of the series is yeah, FUNNY. Especially with
both characters actually attempting to make the other feel better about
themselves. Spike with his "lilac frilly number" comment and Willow with
the "we can try again" responses. The whole scene pulled me out of that
vivid, violent image and made me laugh out loud in their next scene.
That's good writing.
>
> The fight in the hallway is a bit of a throwback to the bad old days of
> insufficient lighting. Not too egregious, though.
Also, getting having someone get whacked in the head with a fire
extinguisher is always a nice touch. LOL
>
> During the scenes in which the Initiative unit is watching Buffy, I
> made the comment that "interesting stuff is happening, but it's not
> interesting to watch." That's the way I feel about this episode.
> It seems to be an important episode, and it sets up a plenty of things
> that have the potential to become good stories, but TI itself is
> weighed down a lot by inconsistency, some bad comedy, and too many
> moments of plain, simple boringness.
The actual initiative scenes are not my favorite but I enjoyed the rest
immensely. I'd rate this one a "good", no question.
>
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> - "Every man faces this moment. Here. Now. Watching. Waiting.
> [etc]" "Oh, shut up."
>
> Random note: Spike thinks a lot about the Slayer and muses deliriously
> about her, but not a single mention of Dorkus that I can recall.
Also, at least we know he can use a computer. heh.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Four, Episode 7: "The Initiative"
> (or "If you introduce a flare gun in act three, is it required to go
> off in act four?")
> Writer: Douglas Petrie
> Director: James A. Contner
>
> "The Initiative" is equal parts intriguing and lame. From the
> start, the teaser sets the stage for these vicissitudes (I've been
> wanting an excuse to work that word into a review for months). On the
> lame side of things, we get the first of many examples of a writer who
> just does not know when to quit with a gag. We can't just have a
> character spill stuff or make a mess once, we have to hammer it home,
> over and over, as if to pulverize any last vestiges of potential humor
> out of it.
I agree with you about one of TI's humorous scenes being lame, but it's
not this one. I found Buffy's misadventures in the cafeteria quite funny,
and they went on just long enough. They were too lightweight to work as
the focus of a scene, but as a counterpart to Riley, Forrest and Graham's
conversation, they were just right.
> Willow is understandably still sulky after the last episode, so they
> drag her to a party. I thought Buffy was done with leaving patrolling
> to people who can't handle it, for frivolous reasons.
Giles and Xander *can* handle patrolling, as long as they follow a few
simple rules: take vamps by surprise, from behind, and don't forget their
superior strength; back off and get Buffy if you see anything more
dangerous than a single vamp; and do NOT split up, no matter how much
Xander is getting on your nerves.
The scene in Giles' apartment was nice, and I liked the "fall fascism"
line. Giles and Xander seem to be drifting closer together as they both
descend into feelings of loneliness and uselessness. Giles seemed tempted
by Xander's idea that they summon a demon to fight; who knows what he
might have said if Buffy hadn't entered at that moment? But I don't see
why Giles thinks that if the commandos are human, then Buffy doesn't need
their help. Whenever Buffy fights something, her friends can always help
-- if not with research, then with reconnaissance, supplies, and
back-watching. Maybe ennui-Giles is just giving up too easily.
> The less successful big story is about Riley and his growing feelings
> for our hero, which he mainly works out from a distance in bland
> conversations with Forrest and The Other Guy, and later with Willow.
> He's portrayed primarily as yet another big-n'-ripped but shy type.
Kind of like Owen from NKABOTFD. (Have there been any other shy but
ripped guys?) But while Owen was quiet but deep (in the teenage sense of
being into poetry and death), Riley is one of your cheerful, hearty, open
sorts of guys who just happens to get shy with a girl he's attracted to.
He's a pretty ordinary guy, but he's also very different from anyone else
Buffy has been attracted to so far. (Of course he does have a dark
secret, but Buffy has no idea about it.)
I liked how Forrest and Graham had long since realized that Riley was
attracted to Buffy. And it was certainly nice to see Parker get hit yet
again, especially at the very moment he thought he was wallowing in macho
approval. As Parker talks, Riley tries to smile but it wavers; you can
tell he's thinking "Hey, I should be enjoying this. Why am I not enjoying
this?"
> Riley/Buffy one - mostly because of Willow, of course. I quite like
> her deadpan summary of love, ending with "it feels like the whole
> world's made for you two, and you two alone, until the day one of you
> leaves and rips the still-beating heart from the other, who's now a
> broken, hollow, mockery of the human condition."
"Yep, that's the plan."
> Meanwhile, we simultaneously provide more alleged humor and clunkily
> move the plot along with a girly-fight between Xander and Harmony. I
> hate to be the nitpicky one whining about "consistency," but now
> that we're in the fourth season here, would it kill us to establish
> once and for all a relative idea of how good Xander is in a fight?
This is the one where I agree with AOQ. Aside from the Xander thing, it
totally ignores how strong even an average vamp is supposed to be. And
besides ... it was just dumb. Even the silliest jokes can work if they're
grounded in plot or character, but I don't see how this one was. Maybe
you could argue that they fell back into childish ways when fighting
someone they had knew since elementary school? But more likely, it was
just grounded in the tradition that there are certain characters, like
Xander and Harmony, that can always be used for comic relief without
worrying too much about consistency.
> Well, as it turns out, Riley and his friends are part of the
> Initiative.
I first saw season 4 out of order, so I knew all about the Initiative by
the time I saw The Initiative. But for those who were unspoiled, the
slow, matter-of-fact reveal of the secret identitities and huge secret
compound as Riley and his friends continue to chat about Buffy must have
been a great "What the FUCK?!" moment. This is something else Joss and
company are good at: introducing a sudden plot twist that is astonishing
and yet seems natural in retrospect.
> Buffy runs out to confront the Big Bad, but he visits her room instead.
> And, in a great little touch, Willow casually tells whoever's
> dropping by to "come in." Ouch. The genuine suspense of going to
> commercial with Willow getting bitten, in a situation where we know
> that no one who could save her is in range,
The stereo blaring an inappropriate song, and the slow pan out to the
crowded hallway where nobody realizes what's happening behind the door,
really add to the brutality of the attack and our fear for Willow.
> is sabotaged as we come
> back into the worst moment of the show.
Here I disagree. I love the scare at the beginning before we see that
Willow's okay, the humor works for me, and it also gives us a nice quiet
opportunity to acquainted with Spike's new disability while keeping the
exposition humorous. I could have done without the final "why don't we
wait half an hour" bit, but even that is kind of in character: Willow's
the smartest of the bunch, but she not infrequently speaks before she
thinks.
However, Spike's "I hate being obvious, all fangy and 'grrr!'" is SO
blatantly untrue. I'll give the writer the benefit of the doubt and
assume he was making Spike lie, rather than that he just didn't understand
Spike's character.
Note that we finally learn Oz's real name. (And BTW, one of my pet peeves
is people writing the possessive form of Oz as Oz'.)
So Buffy and Willow really just have the one class, huh?
Using AOQ's scale, I'd call put this one at Good, maybe even near the top
of the Good range.
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
eli...@gmail.com
Marcie was taken away by the FBI and was to be trained as an assassin.
The Initiative is another proof that the government knows what is going
on (re. demons etc), and is doing something about it.
Arbitrar Of Quality
Nothing like Humor Fascists to kill one's interest in literature.
-AOQ
Mel
Espen Schjønberg wrote:
> On 23.04.2006 12:40, Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>> threads.
>>
>>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Four, Episode 7: "The Initiative"
>
>
>> One-sentence summary: Hit and miss.
>>
>> AOQ rating: Decent
>
>
> I hoped you would comment on the conclusion: "The implant works" . How
> on earth can the initiative-people know this? They didn't talk with
> Willow! (Which in itself must have been a weirdness. Why shouldn't they
> sort out which room this had been about? Hope this don't count as a
> spoiler, though. I guess it sort of is. :-/ )
They know because Spike tried to bite one of them and couldn't. The guy
yells "He's on me!" and then Spike goes all pain-filled and jumps away.
Btw, it's pretty clear Riley recognizes Willow and that's why he gave
the order to leave her there, despite the fact she may have been turned.
The others wanted to bring her in for quarantine purposes but he said no.
Mel
Arbitrar Of Quality
> > The less successful big story is about Riley and his growing feelings
> > for our hero, which he mainly works out from a distance in bland
> > conversations with Forrest and The Other Guy, and later with Willow.
> > He's portrayed primarily as yet another big-n'-ripped but shy type.
>
> Kind of like Owen from NKABOTFD. (Have there been any other shy but
> ripped guys?)
I feel like Buffy dated someone else at some point (like S2 or S3) who
was big and muscular but sorta shy and withdrawn with people; if I'm
remembering right, he was a lot more interesting than Owen or Riley
(thus far). I could be wrong, though.
> This is the one where I agree with AOQ. Aside from the Xander thing, it
> totally ignores how strong even an average vamp is supposed to be. And
> besides ... it was just dumb. Even the silliest jokes can work if they're
> grounded in plot or character, but I don't see how this one was. Maybe
> you could argue that they fell back into childish ways when fighting
> someone they had knew since elementary school? But more likely, it was
> just grounded in the tradition that there are certain characters, like
> Xander and Harmony, that can always be used for comic relief without
> worrying too much about consistency.
Very well said. You hit the nail in exactly why I didn't like that
scene. Sadly, it's been a problem with Xander all series, so I don't
know if it'll ever get any better.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
Nice catch; I didn't make that connection.
-AOQ
MBangel10 (Melissa)
my Livejournal thread regarding your review. Here are some snippets:
Me: Good point. At least he is insightful when it comes to the non-funny
moments. This review has definitely cemented the fact that AOQ will
never get Buffyverse humor. Unfortunately, it's been shown throughout
his previous season reviews that it does hamper his enjoyment as a whole
and that's a shame.
plainsong3178: I acknowledge that gag-based humor does require some
contrivance, and sometimes a character is hijacked for the laughs...
Willow wasn't really that out of character in that scene, and ultimately
the aggressor is the butt of the joke, and for cryin' out loud LOSE
YOURSELF IN THE ABSURDITY!
Me: Exactly! I don't think he allows himself to just have fun with it.
The Harmony/Xander fight scene and the impotence joke between
Spike/Willow are really funny. He needs to let himself enjoy the humor
instead of finding character fault within it.
plainsong3178: The word he needs to learn is "camp." The concept of
BtVS, while deconstructionist, is also campy. If you can't take camp,
you can't really appreciate Buffy. Or why Xander is anyone's favorite
character. Or why watching Giles in his newfound leisure time is
hilarious. And so on.
plainsong and I agree with very little in regards to the Buffyverse. We
were both actually a bit shocked that we agreed on this one topic. Joss
has stated that continuity isn't always his #1 priority. When it comes
to the Buffyverses' campy humor, I think he prefers to just let a good
joke be a good joke instead of worrying that it's 100% within the
continuity of the character.
I think that aspect of it takes some of the enjoyment away from you when
you watch an episode like this. I'm not saying it's a wrong way to view
it but it's definitely affecting your enjoyment of the series as a whole.
eli...@gmail.com
MBangel10 (Melissa)
are supposed to be professional demon hunters and they know nothing
about how a vampire turns a human into a vamp.
Espen Schjønberg
I think that is Okay. Remember 'The Wish'? Not even Wishverse Giles
would take any risks.
It is not so easy for mundane people to fight this demons, remember.
One Bit Shy
news:1145788818....@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> "The Initiative" is equal parts intriguing and lame.
I'm really disappointed. I expected you to like this one. I might as well
say right off that IMO this is the best episode of the season to date -
easily an Excellent. It's funny. It's exciting. It really propels the
season story, while maintaining a solid single episode plot, and
substantially moving a few character stories ahead too. It's a tuat
well-paced show and includes one especially memmorable classic and oft
referenced scene. I think the writing is very good and the performances
exceptional. There's really very little bad about it to me. One of those
episodes where the whole M.E. team is clicking.
I may come off a little harsh in my responses here - sorry. But, honestly,
to me this is your weakest review since S1.
> From the
> start, the teaser sets the stage for these vicissitudes (I've been
> wanting an excuse to work that word into a review for months). On the
> lame side of things, we get the first of many examples of a writer who
> just does not know when to quit with a gag. We can't just have a
> character spill stuff or make a mess once, we have to hammer it home,
> over and over, as if to pulverize any last vestiges of potential humor
> out of it.
No, you can't have Buffy spill stuff once. That wouldn't fit the structure
of this scene - and it would inadequately support what's being more broadly
developed.
Buffy isn't the forefront of this scene. That would be Riley and friends.
They are talking about Buffy, but mainly as a vehicle for ragging on Riley.
They observe Buffy from afar as they talk - and we see the glimpses of her
being clumsy - the humor partly coming from her unwittingly being at her
worst while others are assessing her - and partly because they don't seem to
notice or at least not care, since they're more interested in how bedable
she is. In subtext it also serves to foster the wrong idea of what Buffy is
about - an important misdirect for those characters. It can't be one spill
because it's not depicting Buffy screwing up, but rather Buffy as a screw
up. *We* know that's not exactly true - or at least very incomplete - but
the observers don't know that. So they're primed not to take her seriously.
This scene also supports the soon to come scene with the leaky ballpoint
pen, which is designed to mock Spike's total misunderstanding of what is
happening to him in the Initiative.
Perhaps most importantly it establishes the broader contrast between Slayer
and company with the Initiative. The former being a goofy band of fumbling
amateurs who struggle handling a flare gun, and the latter being highly
trained and well equiped professional soldiers. Again, *we* know there's
more to the scoobies than that, but half of the initial shock of the
Initiative is being overwhelmed by their professionalism and fearing that
they are way beyond Buffy.
The tone for that is set in that very first scene where Buffy's bumbling is
contrasted with the easy confidence of Riley's crew.
Sorry to belabor this, but I thought it was important to point out how much
really went into the writing and why I think your criticism is wildly off
base.
It's also just plain funny. I love how Buffy surreptitiously tosses the
broken handle into the salad case and goes to the cash register, leaving the
mess to the poor guy following her.
Graham : Maybe she's Canadian.
> On the interesting side, Spike is obsessed with Buffy
> again, and he's a prisoner of our unknown masked guys. Roll credits,
> and hey, it's the series' first mid-season main cast change. And
> it's a change that ought to shake things up. I'll miss Oz, though.
As will I. Oz is a very pleasing character. Now with both he and Angel
gone, who's going to provide the terrific men of few words lines that have
so enriched the series?
Be that as it may, I have to admit that the show seemed to struggle fully
fitting Oz in. There was a bit of a 5th wheel charateristic to him. (Buffy
being the 3rd wheel.)
> Willow is understandably still sulky after the last episode, so they
> drag her to a party. I thought Buffy was done with leaving patrolling
> to people who can't handle it, for frivolous reasons. There are only
> two reasons to do something like this: re-treading old ground, or
> laboriously setting up a joke at the expense of making sense. This
> episode does the latter of these pretty often.
Buffy didn't ask them to patrol. She just said she wouldn't that night.
Giles and Xander went out on their own initiative - probably because they
were so bored.
I like Giles and Xander together, though it's a tad sad. Do you suppose
Giles ever imagined he'd spend his days hanging out with Xander?
Xander : The latest in fall fascism.
> One of TI's main stories concerns Spike and the titular Initiative.
> Apparently the Rat who helps him out was the one captured at the end of
> "The Freshman;" I can't really tell the background vamp-faces
> apart. They rather quickly make a getaway, and in a classic Spike
> moment, he thinks of himself first ("new plan; we split up...").
> There's also a nice scene in which he and Harmony are reunited, and
> instantaneously return to their old patterns of use, need, and kink.
> Spike's increasingly fake-sounding affectionate names for her are
> especially fun.
Spike : ...my little mentholated pack of smokes.
I wonder if he said that because he was looking for a pack of smokes right
then.
> The less successful big story is about Riley and his growing feelings
> for our hero, which he mainly works out from a distance in bland
> conversations with Forrest and The Other Guy, and later with Willow.
> He's portrayed primarily as yet another big-n'-ripped but shy type.
> Obviously the revelations about him later in the episode might add a
> little life to the character, but in any case, he desperately needs
> some.
Your perception of Riley is not unusual. I like him a lot in this episode
myself. I think he's genuinely sweet and likable - and very well performed.
The commentary describes him as a Jimmy Stewart role, which I suppose is
less than exciting for some. But he also shows more depth than just that.
His approach to Willow is very smart - not just in using her as an avenue to
Buffy, but in the way he disarmed her and enlisted her aid as accomplice.
The latter was exactly the right thing to say to Willow at that moment - she
couldn't resist a little conspiracy. Probably the first fun thing she's
done since Oz left.
The greater depth is seeing Riley in command. His natural air of authority
is impressive. You also see a touch of it at the party when he signals for
the music to be changed with the full expectation that it will be done.
(The commentary emphasizes that moment.)
> Actually, the Riley/Willow dynamic is more interesting than the
> Riley/Buffy one - mostly because of Willow, of course. I quite like
> her deadpan summary of love, ending with "it feels like the whole
> world's made for you two, and you two alone, until the day one of you
> leaves and rips the still-beating heart from the other, who's now a
> broken, hollow, mockery of the human condition."
Followed by the utterly disarming response from Riley, "Yep, that's the
plan."
> And yet another
> ATBVS handle/sig makes its appearance: "remember, if you hurt her, I
> will beat you to death with a shovel. A vague disclaimer is nobody's
> friend. Have fun!"
Did you notice how, after Willow sent Buffy into the party so she could go
talk to Riley, she put on her conspiratorial game face? I think it's a very
funny expression.
Your're right that the Riley/Willow dynamic is very good. When they were on
the couch together after Riley's first failure with Buffy, it was almost
romantic - until Willow spoke of projectile vomiting that is. But Riley
spoke much more easily with Willow and Willow had a good time with Riley and
really appreciated the switch in music.
Incidentally, it's also probably worth noting that Buffy seems in a fine
frame of mind herself. Quite chipper. And dancing with guys at the party.
(She also indicates she knows people there when she and Willow enter. So I
guess Buffy is expanding her circle of friends.) Bonking Parker on the head
must really have done the trick.
> Most telegraphed joke of the week: Riley chatting up Buffy only to wuss
> out and talk about the assigned reading. Komedy.
Cheese?
Humor challenged.
> Meanwhile, we simultaneously provide more alleged humor and clunkily
> move the plot along with a girly-fight between Xander and Harmony. I
> hate to be the nitpicky one whining about "consistency," but now
> that we're in the fourth season here, would it kill us to establish
> once and for all a relative idea of how good Xander is in a fight? I
> don't care which way it tilts, just pick one and stick with it.
Oh, for heavens sakes. The most memmorable scene in the show, one of the
more frequently referenced moments in the series, one chock full of good
humor, and you're fussing about continuity in Xander's fighting skills.
Well, if you must go there, the history of Xander fighting is mainly getting
kicked around. Once in a while, when it matters, he can come through. But
generally his bravery/bravado well exceeds his skill. If you must dissect
this fight, the key is that Harmony didn't fight like a vampire and
surprised him with the slap, sending them both down the silly path. Xander
was posturing anyway, not taking Harmony seriously, and in his foolish
fashion wasn't actually prepared for any sort of fight.
But, gee, it would be easier to just go with it and laugh. I like the leg
kick best myself.
> This
> episode also establishes that his military training has now more or
> less completely atrophied to the point where he can't even open a
> gun, despite this not being the kind of skill one would be expected to
> forget entirely. And despite the fact that he was still good enough
> just a few months ago to train and organize a fairly skilled volunteer
> army, after a year and a half of non-practice. (Yes, I did know/accept
> that this'd be a continuity nightmare back in "Innocence" when it
> was introduced, but it's still a little annoying.)
Putting an end to military guy has another function too - adding more
contrast between the scoobies and the Initiative.
Xander: Are you kidding? I put the "simper" in "simper" fi.
Xander: Right now, I don't have the technical skills to join the swiss army.
And all those guys ask you to do is uncork a couple of sassy cabernets.
> Well, as it turns out, Riley and his friends are part of the
> Initiative. I like how they keep with the off-duty bullshitting as
> they make their way into the compound, and then snap into soldier mode
> once they meet their superior.
One of the things I find interesting about the show is the way they
interact. Early on, when we still think of them as college guys, we can see
that their friends and all, but the way they talk is - odd - mannered. (And
they're so big.) Once their role in the Initiative is revealed, those
conversations are also revealed as the camaraderie of soldiers. Suddenly
their manner makes sense - can even be seen as a kind of clue. Good
writing, direction and performance I think.
> The plotting has been very good,
> actually; we're inclined to cheer for Spike and anyone else we
> recognize when the enemies are mysterious masked guys, and then it
> turns out that they've been among us all year, and are coming up with
> a way to render vampires harmless without excess violence. Not such a
> bad vocation (although I could see this going in a _Clockwork Orange_
> kind of direction... just an idea, though).
Like an implant that induces intense neurological pain whenever Spike tries
to hurt someone? I don't see the connection.
> Walsh as the commander
> makes sense to me too. I have no idea how the commandos get signaled
> in case of emergency, though.
Do they have many emergencies? I don't think we know yet if the initiative
is primarily about protection or research. Spike's an emergency not because
he's a dangerous vampire, but because he can blow their cover.
> Buffy runs out to confront the Big Bad, but he visits her room instead.
> And, in a great little touch, Willow casually tells whoever's
> dropping by to "come in." Ouch. The genuine suspense of going to
> commercial with Willow getting bitten, in a situation where we know
> that no one who could save her is in range,
One moment wehre the DVDs fall short. The comercial break is a big deal
here. Also, the commentary claims that a rumor was running around the
Internet at the time that Willow was going to be killed.
> is sabotaged as we come
> back into the worst moment of the show. Spike can't feed, and
> doesn't know why. And Willow tries to help him talk through it. You
> know, I get this vague sense, for no reason at all, that there just
> might be some subtext here. It's almost as if they're playing the
> scene like it's about something than neck-biting. Wouldn't that
> just be wacky and fun? Mrs. Quality feels that it was funny for about
> two lines, or fifteen seconds, or something like that. I'm of the
> opinion that it never got around to getting funny at all. Either way,
> the joke has no right to be taking up two and a half minutes of my time
> (I timed it). Yet again the episode writes the characters to fit the
> scenes rather than the other way around; Willow offers to *let Spike
> bite her again in a little while*. That's terrible writing, and
> I'm speaking as someone who had no problem with "there, there"
> from "Lovers Walk." But of course, if Willow weren't transformed
> into a moron, we couldn't have our oh-so-hilarious little bit, and
> that would be a greater loss.
I like the Lovers Walk scene better, but this one has attributes too.
Willow and Spike are an interesting mix. Maybe Spike should be her next
boyfriend. heh-heh.
There are other subtexts here too. First, of course, we're being introduced
to the notion of Spike not being able to feed on people. Whoa. He really
has had a run of bad luck, hasn't he? Then there's Willow's feelings, where
we see her relate what happened to being rejected by Oz. Her feeling of
rejection is half the reason for her willingness to go down this path with
Spike, along with her fear, Spike's flattery and genuine upset, and Willow's
memory of dealing with Spike in Lovers Walk. It's not totally crazy. Yes,
the suggestion that Spike try again in a half hour is a step too far - but
that's when Willow realizes it herself and procedes to whack Spike with the
lamp and attempt to escape.
Nor is Willow being a moron. How should one talk to Spike if trapped on a
bed with him? Seems to me she had the right idea. Wouldn't her prior
experience in Lovers Walk inform her of that?
I agree that the dialog is more over the top and doesn't flow as well -
though Lovers Walk is an awfully difficult standard to meet. I think it
largely makes up for that with very funny stuff. "Don't patronize me!" Got
a laugh from me.
The over the top humor here also provides the extreme contrast with the
deadly danger before the commercial break that makes it such a surprise
and - IMO - delightfully absurd. Performance anxiety was certainly the last
thing I expected. We had, after all, just been primed with both Buffy and
Riley coming a running.
> The fight in the hallway is a bit of a throwback to the bad old days of
> insufficient lighting. Not too egregious, though.
Especially since being dark was a central element of the scene. Night
vision gogles. Flare gun. Nobody recognizing anybody.
I like this fight a great deal. Very well staged IMO. The confusing
elements fit the confusion of the participants. Not drawn out.
Last episode the Initiative got in Buffy's way. This time Buffy got in the
Initiative's way. They're very much on each other's minds now, but they
still don't understand what they're dealing with.
Forrest: Whoever he was, the guy was big.
> During the scenes in which the Initiative unit is watching Buffy, I
> made the comment that "interesting stuff is happening, but it's not
> interesting to watch." That's the way I feel about this episode.
> It seems to be an important episode, and it sets up a plenty of things
> that have the potential to become good stories, but TI itself is
> weighed down a lot by inconsistency, some bad comedy, and too many
> moments of plain, simple boringness.
Mind boggling to me. You didn't like Riley's exchange with Buffy at the
park bench? Not even Buffy going, "Shoo!"?
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> - "Every man faces this moment. Here. Now. Watching. Waiting.
> [etc]" "Oh, shut up."
>
> Random note: Spike thinks a lot about the Slayer and muses deliriously
> about her, but not a single mention of Dorkus that I can recall.
Harmony : Spikey. Let's leave the slayer alone. You know she'll only slap
you around, and I can do that.
>
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Hit and miss.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
Excellent for me.
OBS
MBangel10 (Melissa)
>>
>> AOQ rating: Decent
>
> Excellent for me.
>
> OBS
>
>
Excellent post and spot on. Thank you.
eli...@gmail.com
> really went into the writing and why I think your criticism is wildly off
> base.
Thank you for this - this is what I'd have written if I had the time!
And Petri is a very good (and sometimes very subtle) writer, he
deserves a lot of credit!
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
>
>> > The less successful big story is about Riley and his growing feelings
>> > for our hero, which he mainly works out from a distance in bland
>> > conversations with Forrest and The Other Guy, and later with Willow.
>> > He's portrayed primarily as yet another big-n'-ripped but shy type.
>>
>> Kind of like Owen from NKABOTFD. (Have there been any other shy but
>> ripped guys?)
>
> I feel like Buffy dated someone else at some point (like S2 or S3) who
> was big and muscular but sorta shy and withdrawn with people; if I'm
> remembering right, he was a lot more interesting than Owen or Riley
> (thus far). I could be wrong, though.
Oh, yeah, *him*. Funny, I was just thinking about him yesterday!
I usually think of "shy" as indicating someone who is withdrawn because
they feel embarrassed in front of other people, whereas Angel is withdrawn
more because he's been isolated and guilt-wracked for so long that he's
simply forgotten *how* to interact with people. That's just my bias,
though, they both fit the dictionary definition of shyness.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
Maybe Forrest or Graham, whichever one it was, thought it was possible
that she had *already* done the sucking thing, died, and rose again, and
was now just pretending to still be alive. In that case they'd want to
haul her down to their headquarters and do some tests to see if they
should stake her or not.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"MBangel10 (Melissa)" <mban...@comcast.net> wrote:
they arent professional demon hunters
thats what buffy is
the initiative is concerned with hostile subterrestrials not demons
thwy dont have waste time on magic nonsense
burt...@hotmail.com
The issue isn't just what she says. As you say, Willow's the smartest
of the bunch, which is why it's completely out of character for her to
do something as monumentally idiotic as sitting in bed and comforting a
serial killer who just tried to brutally murder her. If the chip had
been a "one time only" piece of equipment, Willow would have been
killed for her stupidity.
burt...@hotmail.com
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1145788818....@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> > back into the worst moment of the show. Spike can't feed, and
> > doesn't know why. And Willow tries to help him talk through it. You
> > know, I get this vague sense, for no reason at all, that there just
> > might be some subtext here. It's almost as if they're playing the
> > scene like it's about something than neck-biting. Wouldn't that
> > just be wacky and fun? Mrs. Quality feels that it was funny for about
> > two lines, or fifteen seconds, or something like that. I'm of the
> > opinion that it never got around to getting funny at all. Either way,
> > the joke has no right to be taking up two and a half minutes of my time
> > (I timed it). Yet again the episode writes the characters to fit the
> > scenes rather than the other way around; Willow offers to *let Spike
> > bite her again in a little while*. That's terrible writing, and
> > I'm speaking as someone who had no problem with "there, there"
> > from "Lovers Walk." But of course, if Willow weren't transformed
> > into a moron, we couldn't have our oh-so-hilarious little bit, and
> > that would be a greater loss.
>
> I like the Lovers Walk scene better, but this one has attributes too.
You can't even compare the two scenes. In "Lovers Walk," Willow
comforted Spike because she was trying to keep him from snapping and
raping her and/or killing her and Xander. In "The Initative," Willow
comforted Spike because she was stricken with a sudden case of
writer-induced idiocy (which, from that point on in the show, tended to
strike most characters who were dealing with Spike).
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
>> Meanwhile, we simultaneously provide more alleged humor and clunkily
>> move the plot along with a girly-fight between Xander and Harmony. I
>> hate to be the nitpicky one whining about "consistency," but now
>> that we're in the fourth season here, would it kill us to establish
>> once and for all a relative idea of how good Xander is in a fight? I
>> don't care which way it tilts, just pick one and stick with it.
>
> Oh, for heavens sakes. The most memmorable scene in the show, one of the
> more frequently referenced moments in the series, one chock full of good
> humor, and you're fussing about continuity in Xander's fighting skills.
If I can quibble about an unimportant point (and what else is Usenet
for?), do you really think this is the most memorable scene? I haven't
done a statistical study or anything, but it seems to me that the vampiric
impotence scene is the one most often mentioned by fans.
Aside from that, I applaud most of what you wrote about The Initiative.
Except I still think the hair-pulling fight is just dumb.
Don Sample
Espen Schjønberg <ess...@excite.com> wrote:
> On 23.04.2006 12:40, Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > threads.
> >
> >
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Four, Episode 7: "The Initiative"
>
> > One-sentence summary: Hit and miss.
> >
> > AOQ rating: Decent
>
> I hoped you would comment on the conclusion: "The implant works" . How
> on earth can the initiative-people know this? They didn't talk with
> Willow! (Which in itself must have been a weirdness. Why shouldn't they
> sort out which room this had been about? Hope this don't count as a
> spoiler, though. I guess it sort of is. :-/ )
>
> Actually, what they know is only that it worked not good enough to stop
> Spike from clocking their doctors!
Spike was obviously experiencing pain when he was trying to fight
against being recaptured, and he couldn't hit them very hard.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Don Sample
They're actually pretty new at it, and they haven't worked out all the
details yet.
MBangel10 (Melissa)
> "MBangel10 (Melissa)" <mban...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> eli...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Um, she couldn't have been turned unless she was dead...
>>>
>> I always found that moment in the hallway a HUGE stretch. I mean, these
>> are supposed to be professional demon hunters and they know nothing
>> about how a vampire turns a human into a vamp.
>
> they arent professional demon hunters
> thats what buffy is
>
> the initiative is concerned with hostile subterrestrials not demons
> thwy dont have waste time on magic nonsense
What? HST's and demons = same thing.
So, having them take any time at all to understand how a vampire becomes
a vampire is pointless? I always thought that knowing your opponent was
a common rule of thumb in the military (minus the obvious insert
president Bush - Iraq joke here).
Where is the magic that you are referring to?
MBangel10 (Melissa)
Spike was not. In the 30 seconds it took for them to run up the stairs,
I'm fairly positive that would not have been enough time to change.
Don Sample
"MBangel10 (Melissa)" <mban...@comcast.net> wrote:
> I chuckle when Spike calls Harmony his "mentholated pack of smokes",
> every time I see it. Also, the whole "watch the head" moment, because it
> left me wondering what happened to him.
I think it was "watch the hair" He didn't want to get it mussed up. He
wanted to look good when he went out Slayer hunting.
> It doesn't sound bad at all, does it? I find it funny that Walsh is the
> commander yet she freaked out over the wild dogs in WAH.
She knew they weren't wild dogs. "Wild dogs" was just a quick cover-up
for Buffy's benefit when she showed up, because Walsh wasn't sure how
much Buffy had overheard. Similar to Xander's "You're in love with an
umpire!?" when Cordy walked in on one of the slayer conversations in
season 1, but much more smoothly done.
Walsh is also a scientist, and administrator. She normally only sees
demons that are confined, sedated and/or restrained. Running into a
couple of them in the wild is not something she was prepared for.
Don Sample
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> But I don't see
> why Giles thinks that if the commandos are human, then Buffy doesn't need
> their help.
I didn't see it as Buffy not needing his help. It was more that Giles
felt that she needed a sort of help that he couldn't supply.
MBangel10 (Melissa)
> In article <GqCdnR5xApY...@comcast.com>,
> "MBangel10 (Melissa)" <mban...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> I chuckle when Spike calls Harmony his "mentholated pack of smokes",
>> every time I see it. Also, the whole "watch the head" moment, because it
>> left me wondering what happened to him.
>
> I think it was "watch the hair" He didn't want to get it mussed up. He
> wanted to look good when he went out Slayer hunting.
Spike : Ow! Uh, no, see, ow. (Harmony is grabbings his hair, getting
cute.) The head, love. Watch the head. Whoa, watch it! (Harmony has
jumped Spike.)
Arbitrar Of Quality
> I may come off a little harsh in my responses here - sorry. But, honestly,
> to me this is your weakest review since S1.
They can't all be winners.
> I wonder if he said that ["little mentholated pack of smokes"] because he was looking for a pack of smokes right then.
Quite possible. He looks like he's tossing off whatever turns of
phrase he can think of.
> Oh, for heavens sakes. The most memmorable scene in the show, one of the
> more frequently referenced moments in the series, one chock full of good
> humor
I didn't like it. I must be such a disappointment.
and you're fussing about continuity in Xander's fighting skills.
>
> Well, if you must go there, the history of Xander fighting is mainly getting
> kicked around.
Except when the plot decides he shouldn't ("The Pack," "Go Fish," "The
Freshman," as a commander in GD2, and so on).
Defining what's funny and what isn't is a tricky business, but Chris
articulated the problems with that scene much better than I could have.
Short version, though, is that there are two problems for me: one of
them is that the scene is just dumb. I just don't find the
hair-pulling et al inherently funny. Absurdist humor works differently
for different people, and this series sometimes does it well and
sometimes doesn't. Then there's also the deeper issue that in a
show that does character continuity as well as BTVS does (which is
good, since that's become a big part of my appreciation of stories In
my old age), it's jarring when they're thrown into "funny"
situations without regard to context.
There have been a few posts attempting to dissect comedy or
analytically explain why whatever is so hilarious (or in extreme cases,
accuse those who didn't laugh of being incapable of properly
appreciating BTVS as a series). Which is going to be
counterproductive. You'll notice lots of variation on the NG about
which of TI's big jokes were funniest and which didn't work so well. I
may be unique in the fact that I didn't like the cheese, the
girl-fight, or the impotence very much, but hey, I didn't think they
were funny. All I can say to anyone to whom this is bothersome is to
pick up the pieces of your shattered life and move on.
> > (although I could see this going in a _Clockwork Orange_
> > kind of direction... just an idea, though).
>
> Like an implant that induces intense neurological pain whenever Spike tries
> to hurt someone? I don't see the connection.
Heh. I was talking more about whether the show's moral stance will be
anything like ACO's.
> I like the Lovers Walk scene better, but this one has attributes too.
> Willow and Spike are an interesting mix. Maybe Spike should be her next
> boyfriend. heh-heh.
>
> Nor is Willow being a moron. How should one talk to Spike if trapped on a
> bed with him? Seems to me she had the right idea. Wouldn't her prior
> experience in Lovers Walk inform her of that?
I didn't see this as her trying to pacify him. It's played as if
she's genuinely trying to talk him through his problems.
-AOQ
One Bit Shy
news:1145819587....@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
What, you don't think she wants to avoid death and rape here? You don't
think she remembers what worked with Spike before?
How should she deal with Spike instead?
The scenes aren't identical by any means, but there are comparisons to be
made, and Willow's actions here seem to me to be logically informed by her
prior experience.
OBS
eli...@gmail.com
>details yet.
Uzz, lrf naq ab. Vs gurl\'er pyhryrff nobhg inzcver yber, gura vg vf
orpnhfr gurl\'ir abg fghqvrq gurve bja uvfgbel - va \'Jul Jr Svtug\', n
\'Zna va Oynpx\' vagebqhprf uvf bcrengvba:
\'V ercerfrag n eryngviryl arj ntrapl, Qrzba Erfrnepu Vavgvngvir?\'
Ur (naq uvf zra) nccrne irel xabjyrqtrnoyr nobhg Natry naq inzcverf va
trareny... fbzrbar fubhyq unir genvarq Evyrl orggre!
One Bit Shy
news:124nkpc...@corp.supernews.com...
> One Bit Shy <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
>>> Meanwhile, we simultaneously provide more alleged humor and clunkily
>>> move the plot along with a girly-fight between Xander and Harmony. I
>>> hate to be the nitpicky one whining about "consistency," but now
>>> that we're in the fourth season here, would it kill us to establish
>>> once and for all a relative idea of how good Xander is in a fight? I
>>> don't care which way it tilts, just pick one and stick with it.
>>
>> Oh, for heavens sakes. The most memmorable scene in the show, one of the
>> more frequently referenced moments in the series, one chock full of good
>> humor, and you're fussing about continuity in Xander's fighting skills.
>
> If I can quibble about an unimportant point (and what else is Usenet
> for?), do you really think this is the most memorable scene? I haven't
> done a statistical study or anything, but it seems to me that the vampiric
> impotence scene is the one most often mentioned by fans.
>
> Aside from that, I applaud most of what you wrote about The Initiative.
> Except I still think the hair-pulling fight is just dumb.
Yeah, I suppose the impotence scene would be the other candidate. I don't
have enough exposure to the full range of fan commentary to be certain, but
from the exposure I have had, I've gotten the impression the fight is more
frequently referenced. I don't think I'm going to attempt a statistical
analysis though. ;-)
For myself personally I don't know what would be the most memorable per se.
But the scenes I enjoy the most are the Willow/Riley scenes. Those,
however, aren't the kind of scenes I would have much reason to reference.
I don't dispute that the fight scene is dumb. Funny and memorable too. But
definitely dumb. "Ow! You sissy kicker!"
OBS
MBangel10 (Melissa)
highly memorable scenes. As for me, the most memorable and one that made
me laugh the hardest was definitely the Xander/Harmony fight. It was
pure artistry in its most silliest form. :)
Wes <>
>You can't even compare the two scenes. In "Lovers Walk," Willow
>comforted Spike because she was trying to keep him from snapping and
>raping her and/or killing her and Xander. In "The Initative," Willow
>comforted Spike because she was stricken with a sudden case of
>writer-induced idiocy (which, from that point on in the show, tended to
>strike most characters who were dealing with Spike).
It must have been the lamp-to-the-head that had me confused. I thought
she was looking for a way out of the room. Waiting 30 minutes to try
again would be much better than trying again right now.
Wes
George W Harris
<mban...@comcast.net> wrote:
Gurl nera'g qrzbaf, gurl'er navznyf. Gurfr thlf,
nf na betnavmngvba, ner va znwbe yrnthr qravny jeg gur
jubyr fhcreangheny nfcrpg.
--
e^(i*pi)+1=0
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.
Dwayne Johnson
who just happens to get shy with a girl he's attracted to. He's a pretty
ordinary guy, but he's also very different from anyone
else******************************************************************************************
Riley is a covert special forces guy they pick somewhat normal guy and
make them look even more dull.. however dull is something they are not.
George W Harris
wrote:
:I liked how Forrest and Graham had long since realized that Riley was
:attracted to Buffy. And it was certainly nice to see Parker get hit yet
:again, especially at the very moment he thought he was wallowing in macho
:approval. As Parker talks, Riley tries to smile but it wavers; you can
:tell he's thinking "Hey, I should be enjoying this. Why am I not enjoying
:this?"
I also liked that moment for the immediate
follow-up, with Forrest and Riley talking about how
much trouble Riley could get into, and how Parker'll
be too embarrassed to report it. That's a bit of a "wtf
are they talking about?" moment that contributes to
the whole "hey, wait a minute" sequence of these
guys being revealed as the titular Initiative.
--
They say there's air in your lungs that's been there for years.
Don Sample
eli...@gmail.com wrote:
Frnfba 5 bs Natry vf fhpu n pbashfrq zrff gung V pubbfr gb vtaber vg.
Ynetr puhaxf bs Natry frrz gb unir orra jevggra ol crbcyr jub unir bayl
n phefbel xabjyrqtr bs jung unq tbar ba orsber va Ohssl.
Mel
eli...@gmail.com wrote:
> Um, she couldn't have been turned unless she was dead...
>
I know that, and you know that, but apparently the Initiative guys do
not. Listen for the line. It's there.
Mel
Apteryx
news:124nfoj...@news.supernews.com...
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1145788818....@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> I'm really disappointed. I expected you to like this one. I might as
> well say right off that IMO this is the best episode of the season to
> date - easily an Excellent. It's funny. It's exciting. It really
> propels the season story, while maintaining a solid single episode plot,
> and substantially moving a few character stories ahead too. It's a tuat
> well-paced show and includes one especially memmorable classic and oft
> referenced scene. I think the writing is very good and the performances
> exceptional. There's really very little bad about it to me. One of those
> episodes where the whole M.E. team is clicking.
>
> I may come off a little harsh in my responses here - sorry. But,
> honestly, to me this is your weakest review since S1.
Oo, now that is harsh. Weakest review since S1? No, I won't hear of it!
His review of BBB was much worse :)
>> From the
>> start, the teaser sets the stage for these vicissitudes (I've been
>> wanting an excuse to work that word into a review for months). On the
>> lame side of things, we get the first of many examples of a writer who
>> just does not know when to quit with a gag. We can't just have a
>> character spill stuff or make a mess once, we have to hammer it home,
>> over and over, as if to pulverize any last vestiges of potential humor
>> out of it.
>
> No, you can't have Buffy spill stuff once. That wouldn't fit the
> structure of this scene - and it would inadequately support what's being
> more broadly developed.
>
> Buffy isn't the forefront of this scene. That would be Riley and friends.
> They are talking about Buffy, but mainly as a vehicle for ragging on
> Riley. They observe Buffy from afar as they talk - and we see the glimpses
> of her being clumsy - the humor partly coming from her unwittingly being
> at her worst while others are assessing her - and partly because they
> don't seem to notice or at least not care, since they're more interested
> in how bedable she is. In subtext it also serves to foster the wrong idea
> of what Buffy is about - an important misdirect for those characters. It
> can't be one spill because it's not depicting Buffy screwing up, but
> rather Buffy as a screw up. *We* know that's not exactly true - or at
> least very incomplete - but the observers don't know that. So they're
> primed not to take her seriously.
>
> This scene also supports the soon to come scene with the leaky ballpoint
> pen, which is designed to mock Spike's total misunderstanding of what is
> happening to him in the Initiative.
Agree with you about the cafeteria scene and why its funny. And even more so
for the ballpoint scene. The cut from Spike's "I don't care how brilliant
she is" to Buffy struggling with her "stupid pen" was priceless.
>>turns out that they've been among us all year, and are coming up with
> >a way to render vampires harmless without excess violence. Not such a
> >bad vocation (although I could see this going in a _Clockwork Orange_
> >kind of direction... just an idea, though).
>Like an implant that induces intense neurological pain whenever Spike tries
>to hurt someone? I don't see the connection.
I think the connection is clear enough myself, although I don't think the
situations are the same. Do vampires have free will? So far the only
vampire we have seen to not act on his impulse to kill humans to feed is the
ensouled Angel. Va frnfba frira jura Fcvxr trgf n fbhy uvzfrys, Ohssl
erpbtavfrf gung gur puvc vf ab ybatre nccebcevngr.
--
Apteryx
Dwayne Johnson
Willow comforted Spike because she was trying to keep him from snapping
and raping her and/or killing her and Xander. In "The Initative," Willow
comforted Spike because she was stricken with a sudden case of
writer-induced idiocy (which, from that point on in the show, tended to
strike most characters who were dealing with
alone with a serial killer one she knows can overpower her in a second..
what do you want her to do yell for help OR try and CALM him down
waiting for just the right time to act.
burt...@hotmail.com
Except that, as AOQ has already noted, the two scenes are played
completely differently. In "Lovers Walk" Willow was clearly terrified
and trying to pacify Spike in order to avoid being raped and killed. In
"The Initative," Willow was portrayed as being truly disappointed that
Spike wasn't able to murder her, and was genuinely trying to help him
through his "problem" and work him up to trying again, until she (far,
far too late to salvage the scene) finally remembered that she was in
danger and hit him and tried to get away. Other than the superficial
similarities, there's really no comparassion between the two scenes.
One Bit Shy
news:OyR2g.16140$JZ1.6...@news.xtra.co.nz...
> "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote in message
> news:124nfoj...@news.supernews.com...
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1145788818....@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>> "The Initiative" is equal parts intriguing and lame.
>>
>> I'm really disappointed. I expected you to like this one. I might as
>> well say right off that IMO this is the best episode of the season to
>> date - easily an Excellent. It's funny. It's exciting. It really
>> propels the season story, while maintaining a solid single episode plot,
>> and substantially moving a few character stories ahead too. It's a tuat
>> well-paced show and includes one especially memmorable classic and oft
>> referenced scene. I think the writing is very good and the performances
>> exceptional. There's really very little bad about it to me. One of
>> those episodes where the whole M.E. team is clicking.
>>
>> I may come off a little harsh in my responses here - sorry. But,
>> honestly, to me this is your weakest review since S1.
>
> Oo, now that is harsh. Weakest review since S1? No, I won't hear of it!
>
> His review of BBB was much worse :)
Heh. No, that one didn't bother me that much. Though I am perpetually
surprised at how loved that episode is. Goes to show I guess that I really
don't know nothing.
Unensouled Angel didn't feed on Jenny.
I don't have fast references beyond that for what we've seen to date. My
impression is that free will exists, but tempered by a strong compulsion to
feed. One of my pet theories that I haven't had time to work on (it
ultimately ties into the nature of the human soul/demon soul question and
how conscience does and doesn't work with vampires - Naq ubj Fcvxr punatrf
bire gvzr jvgu gur puvc va uvf urnq - so it quickly gets too complex) - is
that part of the reason (certainly not all) that vampires become immediate
evil killers is that they almost always awake ravishingly hungry. They had
been drained of their blood as part of becoming vampire (and maybe filled
with embalming fluid too) - so their first awareness is starvation for
blood. Possibly more starved than they ever will be again. And their first
experience becomes the sweet taste and hunger satisfaction of that first
kill. A kind of instant addiction and established way of being.
But does it necessarily have to be that way? I'm not saying that evil is
removed with an alternate supply of blood, but their behavior might not need
to be so narrowly focused. And especially if intercepted at the start,
there might be room for a wider range of personality traits.
OBS
burt...@hotmail.com
Dwayne Johnson wrote:
> Burt1112 typed: You can't even compare the two scenes. In "Lovers Walk,"
> Willow comforted Spike because she was trying to keep him from snapping
> and raping her and/or killing her and Xander. In "The Initative," Willow
> comforted Spike because she was stricken with a sudden case of
> writer-induced idiocy (which, from that point on in the show, tended to
> strike most characters who were dealing with
> Spike).**************************************************************************************
> alone with a serial killer one she knows can overpower her in a second..
Actually, Willow doesn't know that. What she does know is that he can't
hurt her, because he already tried to and failed. But she has no idea
WHY he can't hurt her, or how long that condition will last, so the
sensibile thing to do would have been for her to get the hell out of
the room as quickly as she could. Instead she waits, and comforts him,
and complains that he didn't *really* want to kill her, and tries to
talk him into trying again. Like I said, if the chip had been a "one
time only" type of deal, she would have paid for her stupidity with her
life.
> what do you want her to do yell for help OR try and CALM him down
> waiting for just the right time to act.
The right time to act would have been when he was clutching his head in
pain from trying to bite her the first time.
Michael Ikeda
news:dsample-047665...@news.giganews.com:
IIRC, Joss has stated that they basically "blew it" when it came to
the escape scene. Apparently the original shot was even worse and
they did as much as they could with editing, etc. with the
available material. Sometimes things like that happen when you're
under the time pressure of a regular series.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
KenM47
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>
>
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Four, Episode 7: "The Initiative"
>(or "If you introduce a flare gun in act three, is it required to go
>off in act four?")
>Writer: Douglas Petrie
>Director: James A. Contner
>
<SNIP>
>
>One-sentence summary: Hit and miss.
>
>AOQ rating: Decent
>
>[Season Four so far:
>1) "The Freshman" - Good
>2) "Living Conditions" - Decent
>3) "The Harsh Light Of Day" - Good
>4) "Fear Itself" - Decent
>5) "Beer Bad" - Weak
>6) "Wild At Heart" - Excellent
>7) "The Initiative" - Decent]
I think it manages a clear good.
Were there things I didn't care for? Yes. I've always had trouble with
Willow, even depressed Willow, suggesting a willing rape victim even
for a second.
I also had a problem with Walsh as secret commando leader. It seemed
out of left field with her response to the two werewolves the week
earlier and then the LOUD conversation with Riley about it in the
hall.
I also did not care for the humanized Spike telling Willow how cute
she was in the pink sweater and Willow lapping it up.
Oh, and I liked Riley. Always thought he looked to be a good BF for
our Slayer.
Favorite line remains: "I always worried what would
happen when that bitch got some funding."
And now you know where "Vague Disclaimer" gets his nick.
Ken (Brooklyn)
DysgraphicProgrammer
Espen Schjønberg wrote:
> On 23.04.2006 12:40, Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > threads.
> >
> >
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Four, Episode 7: "The Initiative"
>
> Spike from clocking their doctors!
I assume (ie: fanwank) that the chip was not activated yet at this
point. After he got away, they sent some kind of remote activation
signal.
One Bit Shy
news:1145821200.0...@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>
>> I may come off a little harsh in my responses here - sorry. But,
>> honestly,
>> to me this is your weakest review since S1.
>
> They can't all be winners.
Sure they can. Just feed me what I want. (I'm neither a freshman nor a
narcissist - well, I'm not a freshman. Heh. Which reminds me. I forgot to
ask if you believed Professor Walsh when she said she liked Buffy.)
>> I wonder if he said that ["little mentholated pack of smokes"] because he
>> was looking for a pack of smokes right then.
>
> Quite possible. He looks like he's tossing off whatever turns of
> phrase he can think of.
>
>> Oh, for heavens sakes. The most memmorable scene in the show, one of the
>> more frequently referenced moments in the series, one chock full of good
>> humor
>
> I didn't like it. I must be such a disappointment.
Yes you are. I can't imagine what your parents must think.
> and you're fussing about continuity in Xander's fighting skills.
>>
>> Well, if you must go there, the history of Xander fighting is mainly
>> getting
>> kicked around.
>
> Except when the plot decides he shouldn't ("The Pack," "Go Fish," "The
> Freshman," as a commander in GD2, and so on).
The Pack? When he's a hyena?
Go Fish? When he ran like a girl? Or when he beat an overweight middle
aged coach?
The Freshman had both a surprise entrance and coordination with Oz.
GD2 as I recall was mainly coordinating people. I don't recall any hand to
hand except for once grappling with one and pushing him off. Did he stake
anyone?
In any case, I believe it's been noted elsewhere that Xander's skills and
courage seem to rise and fall according to his perception of Buffy's needs.
There was no Buffy factor with Harmony. Nor teamwork. Just dumb bravado
because, you know, it's only Harmony.
> Defining what's funny and what isn't is a tricky business,
Yes, it is. I'm sorry the humor doesn't work for you, because it's there
and does work for a lot of people, but I understand that humor mostly hits
or misses on a personal level that defies explanation or arguing out of. I
worry some when it seems that you're distracted from the humor by other
stuff - and it's frustrating and difficult not to say something when I
guffaw at something you sniff at - but from my point of view the more
important criticism was about the construction of the writing.
> but Chris
> articulated the problems with that scene much better than I could have.
> Short version, though, is that there are two problems for me: one of
> them is that the scene is just dumb. I just don't find the
> hair-pulling et al inherently funny. Absurdist humor works differently
> for different people, and this series sometimes does it well and
> sometimes doesn't. Then there's also the deeper issue that in a
> show that does character continuity as well as BTVS does (which is
> good, since that's become a big part of my appreciation of stories In
> my old age), it's jarring when they're thrown into "funny"
> situations without regard to context.
There probably isn't anything to be done about not enjoying the dumb humor
of the hair pulling. The context part... well I started writing something
long again, but if Harmony and Xander together isn't sufficient context in
itself to explain, then I really don't know what to say.
> There have been a few posts attempting to dissect comedy or
> analytically explain why whatever is so hilarious (or in extreme cases,
> accuse those who didn't laugh of being incapable of properly
> appreciating BTVS as a series). Which is going to be
> counterproductive. You'll notice lots of variation on the NG about
> which of TI's big jokes were funniest and which didn't work so well. I
> may be unique in the fact that I didn't like the cheese, the
> girl-fight, or the impotence very much, but hey, I didn't think they
> were funny. All I can say to anyone to whom this is bothersome is to
> pick up the pieces of your shattered life and move on.
Again, it's hard not to say something when a joke is unappreciated - if for
no other reason than to make sure it was actually understood. I wasn't sure
you actually heard the cheese remark at the party. In any case, again, the
main point is defending the craft in the writing. The cheese remark, for
example, was a triple play used a different way for a different purpose each
time - ultimately as the vehicle for reversing the "peculiar" impression and
creating an implicit bond between Buffy and Riley that didn't exist until
that moment. (Well, other than the demon hunters at night thing.) Laugh or
not, there's real craft in the construction.
>> > (although I could see this going in a _Clockwork Orange_
>> > kind of direction... just an idea, though).
>>
>> Like an implant that induces intense neurological pain whenever Spike
>> tries
>> to hurt someone? I don't see the connection.
>
> Heh. I was talking more about whether the show's moral stance will be
> anything like ACO's.
I figured. But it's such a literal parallel that I had to say something.
(It's also one of my all-time favorite flicks. Maybe there should have been
some Beethoven in this episode.)
OBS
KenM47
They might not know; they might have confused it with the idea of
surviving a werewolf bite. The Initiative guys are government screw
ups after all.
Probably, Walsh submitted the lowest acceptable bid to get the job.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Stephen Tempest
>The issue isn't just what she says. As you say, Willow's the smartest
>of the bunch, which is why it's completely out of character for her to
>do something as monumentally idiotic as sitting in bed and comforting a
>serial killer who just tried to brutally murder her. If the chip had
>been a "one time only" piece of equipment, Willow would have been
>killed for her stupidity.
Stupidity? She's alone and unarmed in a room with someone who has
superhuman strength and superhuman reflexes. What do you expect her
to do, fight him? She'd be dead in seconds. Make a run for it? He'd
catch her before she reached the door.
Or do what she does do: speak calmly to the dangerous monster, try and
win his sympathy, convince him that she's on his side - and wait until
his guard is down, *then* try to escape.
While I do think Willow wasn't exactly thinking straight during this
scene, what with the mind-numbing terror and all, I think she actually
did the best possible thing she could have done to get free. It still
wouldn't have worked without the chip, of course, but she tried.
Gjb frnfbaf yngre, bs pbhefr, Fcvxr jbhyq unir orra gbnfg. :)
Stephen
vague disclaimer
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> And yet another
> ATBVS handle/sig makes its appearance: "remember, if you hurt her, I
> will beat you to death with a shovel. A vague disclaimer is nobody's
> friend. Have fun!"
*Tips cap*
*Goes back to wondering what the odds of getting an FA Cup Final ticket
are*
Oh yeah, I have a theory and it's nothing to do with ohaavrf.
I think you have become so sensitised by the persistent digs at your
sense of humour that you have developed a somewhat bull-headed refusal
to kick back and have a giggle every now and then.
The smoking gun, as it were, is your characterisation of Willow a being
transformed into a moron. It wasn't moronic, it was absent-mindedness
caused by being in the moment - and as soon as she realised, she acted.
The only thing wrong with that scene was the English Vamp's wretched
pronunciation of 'patronise'.
--
A vague disclaimer is nobody's friend
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
>>
>> Maybe Forrest or Graham, whichever one it was, thought it was possible
>> that she had *already* done the sucking thing, died, and rose again, and
>> was now just pretending to still be alive. In that case they'd want to
>> haul her down to their headquarters and do some tests to see if they
>> should stake her or not.
> When they scanned the room for a thermal readout. Willow was human,
> Spike was not. In the 30 seconds it took for them to run up the stairs,
> I'm fairly positive that would not have been enough time to change.
Damn, I forgot about the thermal scan. Another beautiful fanwank, shot
down by a single inconvenient fact....
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
jil...@hotmail.com
Lrnu, gung guerj zr va gur rkgerzr jnl. Jul gur urpx jbhyq tbireazrag
fpntf xabj nobhg Natry'f fbhy, ohg gur Jngpuref jrer pyhryrff? Rnfl
nafjre: ur'f va Nzrevpn.
Zbfg npphengr nafjre: gur jevgref arrqrq na rkphfr gb trg Natry bhg gb
gur fhoznevar.
MBangel10 (Melissa)
(OT)You wanna see some cheese?
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/12424786/site/newsweek/
What is up with that? LOL
(This is my peace offering. Heh.)
jil...@hotmail.com
> In article <e2fpkl$tle$1...@readme.uio.no>,
> Espen Schjønberg <ess...@excite.com> wrote:
> > Actually, what they know is only that it worked not good enough to stop
> > Spike from clocking their doctors!
>
> Spike was obviously experiencing pain when he was trying to fight
> against being recaptured, and he couldn't hit them very hard.
Bar bs gur guvatf jr pna fhfcrpg vf gung ur jnf va gur Vavgvngvir sbe
ng yrnfg n jrrx orsber ur rfpncrq. Juvyr vg frrzf gung gur gvzvat jnf
irel dhvpx, jr nyfb yrnea va Frnfba 7 gung Fcvxr jnf gerngrq sbe cnva.
Abj, onpx-rkgencbyngvat, jr pna svther gung jura Fcvxr sryg ntbal nf ur
jnf rfpncvat, vg qvqa'g bpphe gb uvz gung guvf jnf hahfhny ntbal.
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> Very well said. You hit the nail in exactly why I didn't like that
> scene. Sadly, it's been a problem with Xander all series, so I don't
> know if it'll ever get any better.
>
> -AOQ
The non-Joss writers always had problems with Xander, too often writing
him as a nothing more than a wisecrack machine. Also, I think it was
about this time in the series that Joss made a comment to the effect
that the fans were taking Xander too seriously and so they were writing
him deliberately as a buffoon. I won't say if it ever gets any better
-- people are still arguing about it.
Petrie's commentary for TI would probably annoy you, because he's quite
pleased with himself for this script. FWIW, I love the Xander/Harmony
slap fight. I sometimes can watch the writers' Komedy moments like
that in isolation from any continuity concerns.
-- Mike Zeares
burt...@hotmail.com
> burt...@hotmail.com writes:
>
> >The issue isn't just what she says. As you say, Willow's the smartest
> >of the bunch, which is why it's completely out of character for her to
> >do something as monumentally idiotic as sitting in bed and comforting a
> >serial killer who just tried to brutally murder her. If the chip had
> >been a "one time only" piece of equipment, Willow would have been
> >killed for her stupidity.
>
> Stupidity? She's alone and unarmed in a room with someone who has
> superhuman strength and superhuman reflexes.
And a chip in his head that prevents him from hurting her.
> What do you expect her
> to do, fight him? She'd be dead in seconds.
No she wouldn't, since he can't hurt her without triggering the chip.
> Make a run for it? He'd
> catch her before she reached the door.
No he wouldn't; if he grabbed her with enough force to prevent her from
leaving, he'd hurt her, which would trigger the chip.
> Or do what she does do: speak calmly to the dangerous monster, try and
> win his sympathy, convince him that she's on his side - and wait until
> his guard is down, *then* try to escape.
Except that's not how the scene was played. Willow wasn't just saying
what she thought Spike wanted to hear in order to calm him down; she
was portrayed as being genuinely unhappy that he couldn't bite (and
thus kill) her. She thought that it meant that she wasn't sexually
desirable (and I won't even get into the deeply disturbing message THAT
sends) and was depressed about that.
> While I do think Willow wasn't exactly thinking straight during this
> scene, what with the mind-numbing terror and all, I think she actually
> did the best possible thing she could have done to get free. It still
> wouldn't have worked without the chip, of course, but she tried.
Without the chip, Willow would have been killed within seconds of Spike
entering the room (something to keep in mind for the people putting
forth the bizarre theory that Spike would have been good boyfriend
material for her). When Spike tried to bite her the first time, she
found out that she couldn't hurt her, but she had no idea what was
stopping him or how long that condition would last. Given that, as far
as she knew, Spike could return to his former status as a fully
functioning serial killer at any moment, for Willow to stay in the room
with him and complain that he didn't really want to murder her was
beyond idiotic.
BTR1701
KenM47 <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Were there things I didn't care for? Yes. I've always had trouble with
> Willow, even depressed Willow, suggesting a willing rape victim even
> for a second.
Nitpick: A "willing rape victim" is a factual impossibility.
jil...@hotmail.com
Apteryx wrote:
> I think the connection is clear enough myself, although I don't think the
> situations are the same. Do vampires have free will? So far the only
> vampire we have seen to not act on his impulse to kill humans to feed is the
> ensouled Angel. Va frnfba frira jura Fcvxr trgf n fbhy uvzfrys, Ohssl
> erpbtavfrf gung gur puvc vf ab ybatre nccebcevngr.
Abg gb zragvba, naq V qba'g erzrzore juvpu rcvfbqr ohg nz cerggl fher
Natry Frnfba 2 be 3, jr fnj gung gur svefg gvzr Natry gevrq gb srrq
nsgre orvat vasyvpgrq jvgu uvf fbhy, uvf ernpgvba jnf abg gung sne sebz
Fcvxr'f. Bs pbhefr, vg jnfa'g culfvpny cnva gung fgbccrq uvz, vg jnf
bayl ubeebe.
Mike Zeares
MBangel10 (Melissa) wrote:
>> >
> I've found both to be referenced often enough to prove they are both
> highly memorable scenes. As for me, the most memorable and one that made
> me laugh the hardest was definitely the Xander/Harmony fight. It was
> pure artistry in its most silliest form. :)
The "impotence" scene was the one that was argued about (and is still
controversial). The slap fight usually gets mentioned when people
talked about their favorite funny moments.
-- Mike Zeares
MBangel10 (Melissa)
> Stephen Tempest wrote:
>> burt...@hotmail.com writes:
>>
>>> The issue isn't just what she says. As you say, Willow's the smartest
>>> of the bunch, which is why it's completely out of character for her to
>>> do something as monumentally idiotic as sitting in bed and comforting a
>>> serial killer who just tried to brutally murder her. If the chip had
>>> been a "one time only" piece of equipment, Willow would have been
>>> killed for her stupidity.
>> Stupidity? She's alone and unarmed in a room with someone who has
>> superhuman strength and superhuman reflexes.
>
> And a chip in his head that prevents him from hurting her.
>
>> What do you expect her
>> to do, fight him? She'd be dead in seconds.
>
> No she wouldn't, since he can't hurt her without triggering the chip.
Sure but she doesn't know that. What she does know is that he threw her
against the dresser and then violently tossed her onto the bed. All she
could see was that he was having trouble biting her, that is all. Maybe
she was afraid that he'd snap her neck or something else.
>
>> Make a run for it? He'd
>> catch her before she reached the door.
>
> No he wouldn't; if he grabbed her with enough force to prevent her from
> leaving, he'd hurt her, which would trigger the chip.
He'd already thrown her against the dresser and the bed. How did she
know he couldn't even hit a human?
>
<snip>
MBangel10 (Melissa)
fprarf vaibyivat Fcvxr unir orpbzr uvtuyl pbagebirefvny. Guvf vf whfg
gur ortvaavat...
Mike Zeares
One Bit Shy wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1145821200.0...@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> > One Bit Shy wrote:
> >
> >> I may come off a little harsh in my responses here - sorry. But,
> >> honestly,
> >> to me this is your weakest review since S1.
> >
> > They can't all be winners.
>
> Sure they can. Just feed me what I want.
I was going to ask if you rated his reviews based on how well they
validate your own opinions, but you've just answered that, thanks.
-- Mike Zeares
BTR1701
> mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
> >> Meanwhile, we simultaneously provide more alleged humor and clunkily
> >> move the plot along with a girly-fight between Xander and Harmony. I
>
> Best. Fight. Scene. EVER!
>
> > its official
> > you have no sense of humor
>
> Way, way, way, WAY back in freshman English, we were
> assigned to read True Grit. On the test there was this
> question: "Name a scene from the book that you thought
> was funny." I thought the scene where the little girl picked
> up the bad guy's big gun and shot him in the stomach was
> so funny, I actually laughed out loud when I read it.
>
> My teacher, Ms. Titus, marked that response WRONG.
>
> I argued that you couldn't really mark an *opinion* question
> wrong (since she asked for something *I thought* was funny,
> it could only be wrong if I didn't *really* think it was funny)
> but she wouldn't budge. In retaliation, I didn't even read the
> next book, "The Yearling," and just made up all the answers to
> the test on it (got a couple right anyway). Yeah, THAT taught
> her.
I had some similar experiences in grade school. Sometimes I wish I could
go back in time as an adult and really lay into the teachers that
behaved this way toward me when I was an unsophisticated and powerless
kid.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Again, it's hard not to say something when a joke is unappreciated - if for
> no other reason than to make sure it was actually understood. I wasn't sure
> you actually heard the cheese remark at the party. In any case, again, the
> main point is defending the craft in the writing. The cheese remark, for
> example, was a triple play used a different way for a different purpose each
> time - ultimately as the vehicle for reversing the "peculiar" impression and
> creating an implicit bond between Buffy and Riley that didn't exist until
> that moment. (Well, other than the demon hunters at night thing.) Laugh or
> not, there's real craft in the construction.
You're reading way more into the cheese than I am. I can see the
cafeteria spillage as serving the thematic purpose you describe (not
how I'd have done it at all, but it's not my show), but the cheese
seems just too... cheese to support much meaning.
> I figured. But it's such a literal parallel that I had to say something.
> (It's also one of my all-time favorite flicks. Maybe there should have been
> some Beethoven in this episode.)
Ever read the book? I recommend it, especially to see what you think
of the ending (chapter 21, deleted from earlier American editions and
consequently not in the Kubrick film).
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
of you who want to be enlightened on something in the episode that
actually is hilarious, there you go.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Were there things I didn't care for? Yes. I've always had trouble with
> Willow, even depressed Willow, suggesting a willing rape victim even
> for a second.
Yes, that one leaves more of a bad taste in my mouth the more I think
about it. The rest of the bad jokes in TI don't deeply bother me or
anything (not even poor Xander, since there's not much character that
hasn't already been assasinated long ago). But the impotence joke,
between the fact that it goes on for two and a half minutes (that's an
eternity in comedy time) and has such a disturbing subtext, ranks as
one of my least favorite moments of the entire series so far.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
Technically true, but "willing" does too often get misapplied to
victims who don't physically struggle with their attackers.
-AOQ
One Bit Shy
news:1145839922.4...@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
I normally don't rate his reviews and I was -uh- kind of joking. AOQ has
prompted me in fresh directions a number of times. I hope he knows that.
Be that as it may, any discussion of this sort will naturally reflect
personal biases. I am expressing my opinion, not gospel.
OBS
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Sure but she doesn't know that. What she does know is that he threw her
> against the dresser and then violently tossed her onto the bed. All she
> could see was that he was having trouble biting her, that is all. Maybe
> she was afraid that he'd snap her neck or something else.
Yeah, she sure looked really afraid.
Consider again the way the scene is played. Willow gets completely
caught up in trying to help get herself eaten before finally
remembering that this might not be a good idea.
-AOQ
burt...@hotmail.com
Yeah, that was pretty much what happened with me too. Initially I
didn't have much of a reaction to that scene beyond a simple "eh, that
wasn't funny." But the more I thought about it, the more disturbing and
offensive the subtext became. Back when this episode first aired, I
really couldn't believe how low the writers were willing to sink in
pursuit of a joke. It's one of the worst scenes in the whole series,
and definitely the worst up to this point.
MBangel10 (Melissa)
esteem issues way more stupid than she actually is. I'm sure she was
having LW flashbacks going through her head as she talked with Spike.
So, she catered to him just like she did in LW, and when she realized
the conversation was going too far, she hit him in the head.
In no moment in that scene did I actually believe Willow truly *wanted*
to be killed.
burt...@hotmail.com
> burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > Stephen Tempest wrote:
> >> burt...@hotmail.com writes:
> >>
> >>> The issue isn't just what she says. As you say, Willow's the smartest
> >>> of the bunch, which is why it's completely out of character for her to
> >>> do something as monumentally idiotic as sitting in bed and comforting a
> >>> serial killer who just tried to brutally murder her. If the chip had
> >>> been a "one time only" piece of equipment, Willow would have been
> >>> killed for her stupidity.
> >> Stupidity? She's alone and unarmed in a room with someone who has
> >> superhuman strength and superhuman reflexes.
> >
> > And a chip in his head that prevents him from hurting her.
> >
> >> What do you expect her
> >> to do, fight him? She'd be dead in seconds.
> >
> > No she wouldn't, since he can't hurt her without triggering the chip.
>
> Sure but she doesn't know that. What she does know is that he threw her
> against the dresser and then violently tossed her onto the bed. All she
> could see was that he was having trouble biting her, that is all. Maybe
> she was afraid that he'd snap her neck or something else.
That makes a certain amount of sense, and I could accept this
explanation except for two things. One, the way the scene was played,
Willow didn't seem at all afraid. The only emotion she expressed was
disappointment that Spike couldn't bite her. And two, if she really was
afraid of him breaking her neck, why did she eventually hit him with
the lamp? Why would that fear suddenly go away? It wasn't because she
was waiting for a good opportunity - she had the perfect opportunity to
hit him during either of the two times he was screaming in pain after
trying to bite her.
One Bit Shy
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>
>> Again, it's hard not to say something when a joke is unappreciated - if
>> for
>> no other reason than to make sure it was actually understood. I wasn't
>> sure
>> you actually heard the cheese remark at the party. In any case, again,
>> the
>> main point is defending the craft in the writing. The cheese remark, for
>> example, was a triple play used a different way for a different purpose
>> each
>> time - ultimately as the vehicle for reversing the "peculiar" impression
>> and
>> creating an implicit bond between Buffy and Riley that didn't exist until
>> that moment. (Well, other than the demon hunters at night thing.) Laugh
>> or
>> not, there's real craft in the construction.
>
> You're reading way more into the cheese than I am. I can see the
> cafeteria spillage as serving the thematic purpose you describe (not
> how I'd have done it at all, but it's not my show), but the cheese
> seems just too... cheese to support much meaning.
Nah. It takes a lot of words to explain, but I'm not reading all that much
into it. It's a small mechanical device used to support the internal plot
structure. It's not big, and in it itself not terribly meaningful, but it
is writing craft.
>> I figured. But it's such a literal parallel that I had to say something.
>> (It's also one of my all-time favorite flicks. Maybe there should have
>> been
>> some Beethoven in this episode.)
>
> Ever read the book? I recommend it, especially to see what you think
> of the ending (chapter 21, deleted from earlier American editions and
> consequently not in the Kubrick film).
Red faced I must confess that I've had the book sitting on my shelf for 20
years and never got around to reading it.
OBS
MBangel10 (Melissa)
he'd JUST attacked her violently, twice. When she had time to calm down
and Spike was finally off his guard she came to her senses and hit him.
It's called trauma.
TRAUMA: a disordered psychic or behavioral state resulting from mental
or emotional stress or physical injury
See, you don't even have to look it up.
Rowan Hawthorn
Plus, Willow is terminally empathetic, sympathetic, romantic,
and a whole bunch more of those -ic words; no matter how
frightened or pissed off she is, it's quite easy for her to
get caught up in someone else's pathos, especially when she's
been wallowing in her *own* pathos for a while. Let's notice
that when she says, "Why don’t we wait a half an hour and try
again?" it only takes half a second for the "WTF am I saying?"
reaction to strike. Along with her lamp...
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg,
"Buffy the Vampire Slayer"
MBangel10 (Melissa)
that she wasn't scared out of her wits then either. The only difference
is in TI she got caught up with her issues as well.
burt...@hotmail.com
> Rowan Hawthorn wrote:
> > Plus, Willow is terminally empathetic, sympathetic, romantic, and a
> > whole bunch more of those -ic words; no matter how frightened or pissed
> > off she is, it's quite easy for her to get caught up in someone else's
> > pathos, especially when she's been wallowing in her *own* pathos for a
> > while. Let's notice that when she says, "Why don't we wait a half an
> > hour and try again?" it only takes half a second for the "WTF am I
> > saying?" reaction to strike. Along with her lamp...
> >
> Exactly. Even in LW she was empathizing with Spike, and no one can say
> that she wasn't scared out of her wits then either. The only difference
> is in TI she got caught up with her issues as well.
Are you kidding? Willow wasn't empathizing with Spike in "Lovers Walk"
at all. Watch the scene again. She didn't care at all about Drusilla
leaving Spike. Everything she said and did there was an attempt to
prevent Spike from snapping and raping and/or killing her. Her only
concern was for her and Xander's safety, and she cared about Spike's
issues only to the extent that they directly related to that and not
one ounce more.
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> You're reading way more into the cheese than I am. I can see the
> cafeteria spillage as serving the thematic purpose you describe (not
> how I'd have done it at all, but it's not my show), but the cheese
> seems just too... cheese to support much meaning.
The cheese is *the* central metaphor of BtVS. This will become clearer
over time.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
burt...@hotmail.com
Nice fanwank, but there was no trauma on Willow's part in this scene.
We've seen Willow traumatized before, in "Lovers Walk," and there was
absolutely nothing even close to that here.
Arbitrar Of Quality
MBangel10 (Melissa) wrote:
> Rowan Hawthorn wrote:
> > Plus, Willow is terminally empathetic, sympathetic, romantic, and a
> > whole bunch more of those -ic words; no matter how frightened or pissed
> > off she is, it's quite easy for her to get caught up in someone else's
> > pathos, especially when she's been wallowing in her *own* pathos for a
> > while. Let's notice that when she says, "Why don't we wait a half an
> > hour and try again?" it only takes half a second for the "WTF am I
> > saying?" reaction to strike. Along with her lamp...
And let's notice that that statement comes after an extended period of
Willow coming up with suggestons for how Spike could more effectively
feed, and then gushing over the suggestion that he'd like to have his
way with her. For several minutes, she seems more concerned about
these things than about the fact that Spike is an unstable
mass-murderer who just forced her down onto the bed and tried to drink
her.
> Exactly. Even in LW she was empathizing with Spike, and no one can say
> that she wasn't scared out of her wits then either.
Too bad one *can* say that about TI.
-AOQ
Steve Schaffner
>
> Buffy didn't ask them to patrol. She just said she wouldn't that night.
> Giles and Xander went out on their own initiative - probably because they
> were so bored.
No, that's not right. Buffy: "You two can take patrol."
--
Steve Schaffner s...@broad.mit.edu
Immediate assurance is an excellent sign of probable lack of
insight into the topic. Josiah Royce
Don Sample
burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Stephen Tempest wrote:
> > burt...@hotmail.com writes:
> >
> > >The issue isn't just what she says. As you say, Willow's the smartest
> > >of the bunch, which is why it's completely out of character for her to
> > >do something as monumentally idiotic as sitting in bed and comforting a
> > >serial killer who just tried to brutally murder her. If the chip had
> > >been a "one time only" piece of equipment, Willow would have been
> > >killed for her stupidity.
> >
> > Stupidity? She's alone and unarmed in a room with someone who has
> > superhuman strength and superhuman reflexes.
>
> And a chip in his head that prevents him from hurting her.
She doesn't know that. She (and Spike) have no idea what stopped him,
and if it would continue to stop him for a few more hours, or if the
next time he tries to bite her, nothing will stop him.
>
> > What do you expect her
> > to do, fight him? She'd be dead in seconds.
>
> No she wouldn't, since he can't hurt her without triggering the chip.
Something she doesn't know at this point.
>
> > Make a run for it? He'd
> > catch her before she reached the door.
>
> No he wouldn't; if he grabbed her with enough force to prevent her from
> leaving, he'd hurt her, which would trigger the chip.
He didn't seem to have any trouble grabbing her and tossing her onto the
bed. Or later tossing her out the door at the Initiative guys.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> The cheese is *the* central metaphor of BtVS. This will become clearer
> over time.
I think that's kinda spoilerish.
-AOQ
Steve Schaffner
> <burt...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1145819587....@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
> > One Bit Shy wrote:
> >> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:1145788818....@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> >>
> >> > is sabotaged as we come
> >> > back into the worst moment of the show. Spike can't feed, and
> >> > doesn't know why. And Willow tries to help him talk through it. You
> >> > know, I get this vague sense, for no reason at all, that there just
> >> > might be some subtext here. It's almost as if they're playing the
> >> > scene like it's about something than neck-biting. Wouldn't that
> >> > just be wacky and fun? Mrs. Quality feels that it was funny for about
> >> > two lines, or fifteen seconds, or something like that. I'm of the
> >> > opinion that it never got around to getting funny at all. Either way,
> >> > the joke has no right to be taking up two and a half minutes of my time
> >> > (I timed it). Yet again the episode writes the characters to fit the
> >> > scenes rather than the other way around; Willow offers to *let Spike
> >> > bite her again in a little while*. That's terrible writing, and
> >> > I'm speaking as someone who had no problem with "there, there"
> >> > from "Lovers Walk." But of course, if Willow weren't transformed
> >> > into a moron, we couldn't have our oh-so-hilarious little bit, and
> >> > that would be a greater loss.
> >>
> >> I like the Lovers Walk scene better, but this one has attributes too.
> >
> > You can't even compare the two scenes. In "Lovers Walk," Willow
> > comforted Spike because she was trying to keep him from snapping and
> > raping her and/or killing her and Xander. In "The Initative," Willow
> > comforted Spike because she was stricken with a sudden case of
> > writer-induced idiocy (which, from that point on in the show, tended to
> > strike most characters who were dealing with Spike).
>
> What, you don't think she wants to avoid death and rape here? You don't
> think she remembers what worked with Spike before?
She clearly starts out trying to humor Spike, but also clearly (to me,
at least) quickly forgets about the little rape/murder business and
focuses on her own feelings of inadequacy. Otherwise I don't see how
her lines make any sense.
MBangel10 (Melissa)
scenes mesh in the fact that one of them is horribly depressed in each
one? In LW, Spike was depressed about Dru dumping him and in TI, Willow
was depressed about Oz dumping her. Like I said, I'm sure those LW
flashbacks were going through her head when they were talking.
There is empathy in both scenes, and they play off of each other here.
Heck, the more I think about it the more the scene actually works for me.
Don Sample
"Apteryx" <apt...@extra.co.nz> wrote:
> I think the connection is clear enough myself, although I don't think the
> situations are the same. Do vampires have free will? So far the only
> vampire we have seen to not act on his impulse to kill humans to feed is the
> ensouled Angel.
We've seen lots of vampires exercise discretion of over when and where
to feed. The Gorch brothers hung out in the sewers, eating rats until
they sussed out the local Sunnydale situation enough to decide to go
after the Slayer, at the time and place of their choosing.
Steve Schaffner
> I
> may be unique in the fact that I didn't like the cheese, the
> girl-fight, or the impotence very much, but hey, I didn't think they
> were funny. All I can say to anyone to whom this is bothersome is to
> pick up the pieces of your shattered life and move on.
I find myself in the shocking position of agreeing with AoQ twice in
one review about Buffy humor. I didn't (and don't) find either the
girl-fight or the impotence gag funny. (The cheese, on the other hand,
went down ok for me.) They're both scenes to be skipped for me.
Overall, I like the episode better than he did. I love the
interaction between Willow and Riley -- e.g. Willow's look when Riley
says, "That's the plan", or Riley's look when she threatens to beat
him to death. And I liked the Giles/Xander scenes, the plotting, and
even the fight in the hallway (even if the motivation for having a
flare gun on hadn was pretty lame.)
KenM47
burt...@hotmail.com
> In article <1145838608.6...@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > Stephen Tempest wrote:
> > > burt...@hotmail.com writes:
> > >
> > > >The issue isn't just what she says. As you say, Willow's the smartest
> > > >of the bunch, which is why it's completely out of character for her to
> > > >do something as monumentally idiotic as sitting in bed and comforting a
> > > >serial killer who just tried to brutally murder her. If the chip had
> > > >been a "one time only" piece of equipment, Willow would have been
> > > >killed for her stupidity.
> > >
> > > Stupidity? She's alone and unarmed in a room with someone who has
> > > superhuman strength and superhuman reflexes.
> >
> > And a chip in his head that prevents him from hurting her.
>
> She doesn't know that. She (and Spike) have no idea what stopped him,
> and if it would continue to stop him for a few more hours, or if the
> next time he tries to bite her, nothing will stop him.
That's exactly what I've been saying. And given that fact, her decision
to stay in the room with Spike and try to coax him into biting her
again is monumentally stupid and completely out of character for
someone as smart as Willow is.
burt...@hotmail.com
Where's the empathy in "Lovers Walk?" Seriously, where?
Steve Schaffner
Add me to the list. I actually have three reasons for disliking
it. First, I didn't find it funny (probably because of my other two
reasons). Second, the disturbing subtext. Third, the lack of subtlety
about the metaphor. Vampirism is almost always laden with sexual
meaning, and I have no problem with them playing off that with a form
of vampiric impotence; it could have been good fun. This scene works
so hard to make the metaphor obvious, however, and uses it in such a
literal fashion that it just annoyed me. BtVS usually assumes the
audience is intelligent, but here they pound the point in with a
hammer.
MBangel10 (Melissa)
going to be worth it. There is subtext there that's not just about
impotence. Willow isn't trying to tempt Spike into having his way with
her. There are a whole lot of parallels between LW and TI. The scene
works. I'm sorry you didn't enjoy it like I did.
KenM47
>"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> writes:
>
>> I
>> may be unique in the fact that I didn't like the cheese, the
>> girl-fight, or the impotence very much, but hey, I didn't think they
>> were funny. All I can say to anyone to whom this is bothersome is to
>> pick up the pieces of your shattered life and move on.
>
>I find myself in the shocking position of agreeing with AoQ twice in
>one review about Buffy humor. I didn't (and don't) find either the
>girl-fight or the impotence gag funny. (The cheese, on the other hand,
>went down ok for me.) They're both scenes to be skipped for me.
>
>Overall, I like the episode better than he did. I love the
>interaction between Willow and Riley -- e.g. Willow's look when Riley
>says, "That's the plan", or Riley's look when she threatens to beat
>him to death. And I liked the Giles/Xander scenes, the plotting, and
>even the fight in the hallway (even if the motivation for having a
>flare gun on hadn was pretty lame.)
I do find the X/H fight funny enough. Once again, I'm not sure how I
felt about it way back when, but she's someone he knows, easy enough
to confuse the occupying demon with the human husk, she was a
Cordette, she did fight and die in the battle against the Mayor. Plus
she is comely.
I can see Xander regressing in fighting skills here.
Ken (Brooklyn)