AOQ Angel Review 1-15: "The Prodigal"
Arbitrar Of Quality
episodes in these review threads
ANGEL
Season One, Episode 15: "The Prodigal")
(or "No calf for you!")
Writer: Tim Minear
Director: Bruce Seth Green
For those following the writing credits, it seems like Tim Minear is
the guy who does all the big Angel/Kate episodes. On the quality
scale, I'd say this one's somewhere between the coolness of
"Somnambulist" and the sloppiness of "Sense And Sensitivity."
We go back to Ireland for the opening, where Boreanaz's acting
generally remains strong even when his accent wavers. The show has a
little fun toying with viewer expectations (Angel not liking the light,
etc.), since we never know whether we're seeing Liam or Angelus until
we get some context. And Angel's flippant defiance of his dad
despite whatever else he might be feeling is well played. But I'm
not so wild about the way it ties into the present-day stuff. Take the
cut to Angel fighting the scarecrow-demon right after we see his father
hit him. This episode would have us believe that he's always
reliving or reminded of those days, that it colors everything he does
and frequently has him lost in thought. So why, then, has this never
so much as come up before in any capacity during the years we've
known Angel?
(As has been noted somewhere else, Julie Benz is just too hot to need
to bother with such things as Irish accents, despite the old-style
speech patterns. Also, although I could be wrong, I don't believe
her character is named anywhere in this one [or in "Becoming," for
that matter], so only the really really long-time BTVS watchers will
know what to call her.)
>From there, I have to say that I wasn't tremendously excited about
the past scenes. In an abstract way, it's nice to fill in a few
pieces about how Angel first came to Darla's attention, what he was
like when he first rose from the grave, and so on. But there's a
sense of "so what?" to the whole exercise, especially before the
fatherhood themes become obvious, like we're showing flashbacks just
for the sake of throwing in some flashbacks. Also, and this is partly
expectations, I keep wanting Darla to do more for me than she does when
she shows up in the powdered wig days. She sounds better talking like
an American kid (yes, and she looks better in the schoolgirl outfits).
Ignoring my issues with the concept mentioned above, I liked the final
Ireland scene the best, with Angel reveling in his superficial revenge
("I was invited" leading to the pan over to the other corpse is
good) and then Darla sitting back to explain to him afterward how much
he still has to learn. "What we once were informs all that we
become." Just ask Penn. Or Wesley. Her facial expression after he
decides to eat his hometown is good too, like "wow, what have I made
here?"
Besides being a show about randomly-inserted backstory, and a story
about fathers, this episode also continues the tale of Angel and Kate.
It's a dialogue-heavy week for those two. I'd say my favorite
exchange is the first one, in which they slightly gingerly go right
back to doing their jobs and comparing notes as if she hasn't been
avoiding him for the last month, but then she comes out and bluntly
says a few good lines that I'll mash together. "You don't get to
do that... kill a demon in front of me and then act like we're going
to get a cappuccino together. It doesn't work that way." "How
does it work?" "I'm not convinced it does... We don't get
personal. I'm not your girlfriend." Their next scene together, on
the other hand, is the worst of the episode, the "not evil evil
thing" discussion. That one hurts, as it tries for low-key humor but
just manages to be annoying. With most of the rest of the stuff
between them, I can watch and say that sensible things are happening
with Kate's slow acceptance of the reality of things. I can even say
that the little details are right, like her playing with her cross so
often, or citing professional reasons first when coming to visit Angel
(and never actually getting around to repeating the actual thing that
her dad said that made such an impression). But I can also say that
their scenes together just didn't seem as interesting as they've
been in the past. Kinda lifeless, like the episode.
So how about our present-day father-offspring story? Pretty big
whatever from me. There're a few nice moments like his dry dismissal
of Angel, and his death is solid dramatically, what with uninvited
Angel forced to watch. But Mr. Lockley is also the stock character of
the crooked cop who's doing it all so that someone close to him can
stay clean. Y'think Kate would've asked for or wanted that kind of
"help?" Between that and S&S, not much sympathy from me on this
one, and Rohm doesn't really sell the pain when he gets killed
either. As far as writing essays about what we can see from the
juxtaposition of a neglectful father who thinks his kid is better than
he could ever be with an omnipresent one who treats his kid with such
contempt... no thanks. I'm sure there's something to say there, I
just don't particularly care, so let's leave the rambling about
such things to those who do.
Go in shooting! Maybe Kate is a real L.A. Cop after all. When used
sparingly, it's sometimes nice to see the heroes just pulverize the
villains. Kate does some more staking, and Angel is sure to take the
piss out of Echoey Voice Guy before killing him. "A big ugly
drug-running demon who thinks he's a lot scarier than he is, maybe?
Yeah, she knows." Heh.
Random thought: See, some types of demons are peaceful and coexist
just fine with us mortals. Well, when they're not on PCP.
Other random thought: Whatever else one might say about him, Wesley has
the Watcher's ability to look up a demon species based on a vague
description. That's as good a reason as any to keep him on board at
AI, I suppose.
This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s);
- "Window-is-open"
So, TP is an acceptable hour of TV, but I was kinda hoping for more.
I've been typing that a lot lately. I'm a little sad, because
until this week I would've said that what ATS really needed to have
was less of the (to channel Apteryx) _Liam Angel: Private Eye_ and more
of the Whedon personal touch. That would fix most of the series'
problems, I figured. Well, this episode is all about things like
Angel's past, Angel's present, the most memorable recurring ATS
character, and includes a memorable background character from BTVS...
and it's still not very exciting. I wish I could be less vague with
my criticisms. Anyway, I think I'm no longer going to tell the show
what it "should" be doing in terms of what types of premises it
chooses; just tell the stories better and I'll be happier.
So...
One-sentence summary: Bland execution of a strong general concept.
AOQ rating: Decent
[Season One so far:
1) "City Of" - Good
2) "Lonely Hearts" - Weak
3) "Into The Dark" - Good
4) "I Fall To Pieces" - Good
5) "Rm W/ A Vu" - Decent
6) "Sense And Sensitivity" - Weak
7) "The Bachelor Party" - Decent
8) "I Will Remember You" - Excellent
9) "Hero" - Good
10) "Parting Gifts" - Decent
11) "Somnambulist" - Good
12) "Expecting" - Bad
13) "She" - Good
14) "I've Got You Under My Skin" - Decent
15) "The Prodigal" - Decent]
jil...@hotmail.com
seeing the flashback to when Darla sired Angel, and when Liam was
wandering about drunk and wanting to get laid and we didn't know he
hadn't already been sired.
But I did miss the scene where he slaughtered everyone and Darla tried
to warn him that he hadn't conquered his father in his mind.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> to bother with such things as Irish accents, despite the old-style
what makes you think darla was irish?
i think in the first season btcs buffy makes a guess when she was turned
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
Don Sample
<mair_fheal-A80BF...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > (As has been noted somewhere else, Julie Benz is just too hot to need
> > to bother with such things as Irish accents, despite the old-style
>
> what makes you think darla was irish?
> i think in the first season btcs buffy makes a guess when she was turned
At this point, no one has said much of anything about how old Darla was,
or where she lived while she lived. Just that she was older than Angel.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> Their next scene together, on
> the other hand, is the worst of the episode, the "not evil evil
> thing" discussion. That one hurts, as it tries for low-key humor but
> just manages to be annoying.
Oh, come on. How can you not like a discussion about Evil and Not Evil
Evil Things. Some of us have been using the designation NEET for the
increasing numbers of Not Evil demons we've been seeing, ever since this
episode.
One thing this episode does is make the final adjustment to Angel's age,
adding 4 years to the age that they had claimed for him throughout the
Buffy series. According to his headstone, he was born in 1727, and died
1753. From now on whenever they give his age it will be consistent with
those dates.
John Briggs
>> (As has been noted somewhere else, Julie Benz is just too hot to need
>> to bother with such things as Irish accents, despite the old-style
>
> what makes you think darla was irish?
> i think in the first season btcs buffy makes a guess when she was
> turned
"Well, you been around since Columbus, you are bound to pile up a few ex's.
You're older than him, right? Just between us girls, you are looking a
little worn around the eyes."
--
John Briggs
KenM47
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later _Buffy_ and _Angel_
>episodes in these review threads
>
>
>ANGEL
>Season One, Episode 15: "The Prodigal")
>(or "No calf for you!")
>Writer: Tim Minear
>Director: Bruce Seth Green
>
<SNIP>
>
>
>So...
>
>One-sentence summary: Bland execution of a strong general concept.
>
>AOQ rating: Decent
>
I thought it a solid Good. I liked episodes like this that gave us
backstory on our favorite four vampires, all or any. Hc gb n cbvag.
I also liked the developing Kate/Angel relationship - fnqyl oybja
ncneg ol na RE pnerre zbir
I also liked Wesley earning his keep.
Ken (Brooklyn)
George W Harris
:I also liked the developing Kate/Angel relationship - fnqyl oybja
:ncneg ol na RE pnerre zbir
Y&B, abg RE.
--
"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar." -Wash, 'Serenity'
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
Don Sample
KenM47 <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Wesley has always been shown to be good with the books. I think his
only real mistake to date was that he prematurely declared Balthazar to
be a dead demon.
KenM47
>On Sat, 13 May 2006 21:56:35 GMT, KenM47 <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>:I also liked the developing Kate/Angel relationship - fnqyl oybja
>:ncneg ol na RE pnerre zbir
>
> Y&B, abg RE.
I was referring to the talent's initials. Or did you know that?
Ken (Brooklyn)
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
George W Harris <gha...@mundsprung.com> wrote:
> "I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar." -Wash, 'Serenity'
dont you just want sometimes to pin a leaf down?
One Bit Shy
news:1147526402....@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later _Buffy_ and _Angel_
> episodes in these review threads
>
>
> ANGEL
> Season One, Episode 15: "The Prodigal")
> (or "No calf for you!")
> Writer: Tim Minear
> Director: Bruce Seth Green
>
> For those following the writing credits, it seems like Tim Minear is
> the guy who does all the big Angel/Kate episodes. On the quality
> scale, I'd say this one's somewhere between the coolness of
> "Somnambulist" and the sloppiness of "Sense And Sensitivity."
I'm a little mystified at your reaction to this episode. I thought it was
really good - possibly the best so far, though I'll have to think about that
some more. That may just be my relief at the recovery from the last few
episodes. Well, I'll get to all of that below. First a couple extra notes.
I imagine this must have been a great fan night when originally aired.
First Faith shows up again on BtVS. And now Darla here. Nice double
header.
This isn't a particularly funny episode. (Dead fathers have a way of
killing the happy mood.) But it did have two moments that made me howl.
Angel: Ever since she ran me through with a 2x4 things have been different.
Now that's not a line you hear every day. And to have it actually make
sense as an under stated observation is too funny.
Second was Wesley's discovery of the PCP. Oh, my. Gives a whole new
meaning to, "Gang related. PCP." Maybe Snyder was a more stand up guy than
we realized.
> We go back to Ireland for the opening, where Boreanaz's acting
> generally remains strong even when his accent wavers. The show has a
> little fun toying with viewer expectations (Angel not liking the light,
> etc.), since we never know whether we're seeing Liam or Angelus until
> we get some context. And Angel's flippant defiance of his dad
> despite whatever else he might be feeling is well played. But I'm
> not so wild about the way it ties into the present-day stuff. Take the
> cut to Angel fighting the scarecrow-demon right after we see his father
> hit him. This episode would have us believe that he's always
> reliving or reminded of those days, that it colors everything he does
> and frequently has him lost in thought. So why, then, has this never
> so much as come up before in any capacity during the years we've
> known Angel?
That's a fair point. The back story isn't as well synched into current
events as perhaps it could have been. That particular cut can probably be
explained by Angel's physical reaction to being hit in the mouth. But
that's hardly deep stuff.
On the other hand, these visits into Angel's past are a proven device,
generally fascinating, and very much an Angel characteristic. I also note
that this series hasn't actually seen much back story yet. This should have
been quite illuminating to a good portion of the audience.
And though the action might not synch up, I don't think that the parallel
look at father relationships is trivial.
> (As has been noted somewhere else, Julie Benz is just too hot to need
> to bother with such things as Irish accents, despite the old-style
> speech patterns. Also, although I could be wrong, I don't believe
> her character is named anywhere in this one [or in "Becoming," for
> that matter], so only the really really long-time BTVS watchers will
> know what to call her.)
I don't know. I didn't notice. I did notice she was hot, though. And that
I like the simple sound of her voice. I'd let her read me bedtime stories.
>>From there, I have to say that I wasn't tremendously excited about
> the past scenes. In an abstract way, it's nice to fill in a few
> pieces about how Angel first came to Darla's attention, what he was
> like when he first rose from the grave, and so on. But there's a
> sense of "so what?" to the whole exercise, especially before the
> fatherhood themes become obvious, like we're showing flashbacks just
> for the sake of throwing in some flashbacks.
Hmmm. I thought it was interesting in its own right. I really like the
music when he rises from the grave. And Darla helping him along.
> Also, and this is partly
> expectations, I keep wanting Darla to do more for me than she does when
> she shows up in the powdered wig days. She sounds better talking like
> an American kid (yes, and she looks better in the schoolgirl outfits).
I liked her in wig - I don't think it was powdered. In the scene at the bar
where she watches Angel brawl, her smile and sparkle in her eyes I thought
were quite fetching. That scene, incidentally, I think ties in to the real
time episode pretty well. Kate says she's not Angel's girlfriend and we cut
to Darla. Who else in Angel's life is going to make him think of Darla?
> Ignoring my issues with the concept mentioned above, I liked the final
> Ireland scene the best, with Angel reveling in his superficial revenge
> ("I was invited" leading to the pan over to the other corpse is
> good) and then Darla sitting back to explain to him afterward how much
> he still has to learn. "What we once were informs all that we
> become." Just ask Penn. Or Wesley. Her facial expression after he
> decides to eat his hometown is good too, like "wow, what have I made
> here?"
"What we once were informs all that we have become." That's pretty potent
to me - and worth the price of admission for the back story all by itself.
That idea has been hinted at before, but I don't think so explicitly
stated - and especially not so globally. *All* that we have become. Just
the notion that Angelus might care that his father will never be able to
approve of him seems a huge departure from BtVS's early notion of what
vampires are.
In one of the vampire soul discussions I posited the idea that the vampire
version of demon did not arrive as a possessing entity but rather as an
aspect delivered like a virus through the tainted animating blood. The
demon doesn't possess, but rather is born through the awakening of the
pre-existing personality, now tainted by this evil aspect, and absent the
humanizing aspect of the soul. That was just one of several working ideas I
had, but Darla's statement here seems to fit it very well.
Seen that way, the soul and the demon virus represent opposing aspects, but
not opposing entities. The vampire blood isn't an entitty at all - just a
mechanism. The demon entity is the whole of the being - including all of
the human contributed elements. The soul isn't precluded from being one of
the human elements. It's just that death is part of the process, so the
soul naturally departs. So for Angel, he isn't carrying a demon and a soul
within him as opposing entitities. He's just a demon with a soul.
Still a work in progress. But I'm thrilled to have this additional input.
> Besides being a show about randomly-inserted backstory, and a story
> about fathers, this episode also continues the tale of Angel and Kate.
> It's a dialogue-heavy week for those two. I'd say my favorite
> exchange is the first one, in which they slightly gingerly go right
> back to doing their jobs and comparing notes as if she hasn't been
> avoiding him for the last month, but then she comes out and bluntly
> says a few good lines that I'll mash together. "You don't get to
> do that... kill a demon in front of me and then act like we're going
> to get a cappuccino together. It doesn't work that way." "How
> does it work?" "I'm not convinced it does... We don't get
> personal. I'm not your girlfriend."
Terrific closing line.
> Their next scene together, on
> the other hand, is the worst of the episode, the "not evil evil
> thing" discussion. That one hurts, as it tries for low-key humor but
> just manages to be annoying.
<shrug> I thought it was amusing. And it goes to Kate still struggling
with the whole demon notion. Doesn't want to face her demon as it were.
> With most of the rest of the stuff
> between them, I can watch and say that sensible things are happening
> with Kate's slow acceptance of the reality of things. I can even say
> that the little details are right, like her playing with her cross so
> often, or citing professional reasons first when coming to visit Angel
> (and never actually getting around to repeating the actual thing that
> her dad said that made such an impression).
I thought her visit to Angel was very nearly tender. As much as
personalities like Angel and Kate can get to. I think her father's remark
about being alone really struck home and she was tentatively reaching out
towards Angel. It reminds me a little of the old Buffy story. Very
different personalities and situations of course. But there's a commonality
in what she sees in Angel. As she gradually becomes more used to the idea
that he's a vampire, her life and profession naturally leads her to be
intrigued by him. And in her relatively lonely world, Angel is probably the
most interesting and even nicest guy that she knows.
In retrospect, the scene becomes very sad, for the small step is smothered
by her father's death. I suspect beyond recovery.
And Angel screwed up too. Mostly not his fault, but still his doing. He's
the triggering element that led the vampires to come a killing. And even at
the very end, his knock on the door is what stopped Kate's father from
getting his gun and at least giving himself a fighting chance at escape.
There's also a strong connection to the back story here as, again, Angel
really doesn't understand why a father does what he does. And, again,
brings about a father's death. And, again, makes certain that a father's
approval can never be delivered.
> But I can also say that
> their scenes together just didn't seem as interesting as they've
> been in the past. Kinda lifeless, like the episode.
Worked for me.
> So how about our present-day father-offspring story? Pretty big
> whatever from me. There're a few nice moments like his dry dismissal
> of Angel, and his death is solid dramatically, what with uninvited
> Angel forced to watch. But Mr. Lockley is also the stock character of
> the crooked cop who's doing it all so that someone close to him can
> stay clean. Y'think Kate would've asked for or wanted that kind of
> "help?" Between that and S&S, not much sympathy from me on this
> one, and Rohm doesn't really sell the pain when he gets killed
> either.
Rohm does not appear to do strong emotion well. Probably a good thing that
she's playing a role where she's been taught since childhood to suppress
emotion.
> As far as writing essays about what we can see from the
> juxtaposition of a neglectful father who thinks his kid is better than
> he could ever be with an omnipresent one who treats his kid with such
> contempt... no thanks. I'm sure there's something to say there, I
> just don't particularly care, so let's leave the rambling about
> such things to those who do.
The show certainly isn't trying to romanticize either father. I think it
accepts that both Kate and Angel are in fact screwed up by their fathers.
What's sad to me is that this common ground they share has conspired to be
the thing that drives them apart.
> Go in shooting! Maybe Kate is a real L.A. Cop after all. When used
> sparingly, it's sometimes nice to see the heroes just pulverize the
> villains. Kate does some more staking, and Angel is sure to take the
> piss out of Echoey Voice Guy before killing him. "A big ugly
> drug-running demon who thinks he's a lot scarier than he is, maybe?
> Yeah, she knows." Heh.
I think the fight has some sloppy elements, but still enough fun mayhem to
keep things lively.
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s);
> - "Window-is-open"
Kate: Sorry, I guess I'm still having a little trouble with this
otherworldly stuff.
Angel: Right. - Although demons aren't technically otherworldly. I mean,
in fact they were here... (Kate looks at him and walks back towards the
station) ...first.
Cordelia taking the hacksaw to the demon in the tunnel.
Cordelia: Move your entrails.
> So, TP is an acceptable hour of TV, but I was kinda hoping for more.
> I've been typing that a lot lately. I'm a little sad, because
> until this week I would've said that what ATS really needed to have
> was less of the (to channel Apteryx) _Liam Angel: Private Eye_ and more
> of the Whedon personal touch. That would fix most of the series'
> problems, I figured. Well, this episode is all about things like
> Angel's past, Angel's present, the most memorable recurring ATS
> character, and includes a memorable background character from BTVS...
> and it's still not very exciting. I wish I could be less vague with
> my criticisms. Anyway, I think I'm no longer going to tell the show
> what it "should" be doing in terms of what types of premises it
> chooses; just tell the stories better and I'll be happier.
>
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Bland execution of a strong general concept.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
I'm still waiting for an episode to call Excellent. But I enjoyed this a
lot and think it's a very solid Good.
OBS
Apteryx
news:1147526402....@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> episodes in these review threads
>
>
> ANGEL
> Season One, Episode 15: "The Prodigal")
> (or "No calf for you!")
> Writer: Tim Minear
> Director: Bruce Seth Green
>
>
> generally remains strong even when his accent wavers. The show has a
> little fun toying with viewer expectations (Angel not liking the light,
> etc.), since we never know whether we're seeing Liam or Angelus until
> we get some context. And Angel's flippant defiance of his dad
> despite whatever else he might be feeling is well played. But I'm
> not so wild about the way it ties into the present-day stuff. Take the
> cut to Angel fighting the scarecrow-demon right after we see his father
> hit him. This episode would have us believe that he's always
> reliving or reminded of those days, that it colors everything he does
> and frequently has him lost in thought. So why, then, has this never
> so much as come up before in any capacity during the years we've
> known Angel?
Good questions. I like the episode well enough, it's ceratinly an
improvement on recent AtS episodes, but it does seem to claim a significance
it can't really make good.
> (As has been noted somewhere else, Julie Benz is just too hot to need
> to bother with such things as Irish accents, despite the old-style
> speech patterns.
Was she meant to be Irish? I didn't notice (possibly because Julie Benz is
also too hot for me to notice inconsistencies in her accent).
>>From there, I have to say that I wasn't tremendously excited about
> the past scenes. In an abstract way, it's nice to fill in a few
> pieces about how Angel first came to Darla's attention, what he was
> like when he first rose from the grave, and so on. But there's a
> sense of "so what?" to the whole exercise, especially before the
> fatherhood themes become obvious, like we're showing flashbacks just
> for the sake of throwing in some flashbacks.
That's OK with me. I like backstory. In fact I liked it better before the
fatherhood themes became so obvious.
> personal. I'm not your girlfriend." Their next scene together, on
> the other hand, is the worst of the episode, the "not evil evil
> thing" discussion. That one hurts, as it tries for low-key humor but
> just manages to be annoying.
Worked OK for me.
>
> Random thought: See, some types of demons are peaceful and coexist
> just fine with us mortals. Well, when they're not on PCP.
Tragic the way metaphysical PCP can turn not evil evil things evil.
>
> So, TP is an acceptable hour of TV, but I was kinda hoping for more.
> I've been typing that a lot lately. I'm a little sad, because
> until this week I would've said that what ATS really needed to have
> was less of the (to channel Apteryx) _Liam Angel: Private Eye_ and more
> of the Whedon personal touch. That would fix most of the series'
> problems, I figured. Well, this episode is all about things like
> Angel's past, Angel's present, the most memorable recurring ATS
> character, and includes a memorable background character from BTVS...
> and it's still not very exciting. I wish I could be less vague with
> my criticisms. Anyway, I think I'm no longer going to tell the show
> what it "should" be doing in terms of what types of premises it
> chooses; just tell the stories better and I'll be happier.
>
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Bland execution of a strong general concept.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
Decent for me to. It's not far from the lower reaches of good, but just not
compelling enough to take me there. Its my 53rd favourite AtS episode, 10th
best in Season 1
--
Apteryx
Don Sample
wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1147526402....@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > (As has been noted somewhere else, Julie Benz is just too hot to need
> > to bother with such things as Irish accents, despite the old-style
> > speech patterns.
>
> Was she meant to be Irish? I didn't notice (possibly because Julie Benz is
> also too hot for me to notice inconsistencies in her accent).
At this point, no one has said anything about Darla's original
nationality.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Angel: Ever since she ran me through with a 2x4 things have been different.
>
> Now that's not a line you hear every day. And to have it actually make
> sense as an under stated observation is too funny.
True, that's quite funny when you think about it.
> "What we once were informs all that we have become." That's pretty potent
> to me - and worth the price of admission for the back story all by itself.
> That idea has been hinted at before, but I don't think so explicitly
> stated - and especially not so globally. *All* that we have become. Just
> the notion that Angelus might care that his father will never be able to
> approve of him seems a huge departure from BtVS's early notion of what
> vampires are.
And much for the better.
> In retrospect, the scene becomes very sad, for the small step is smothered
> by her father's death. I suspect beyond recovery.
You think so? I keep expecting them to overcome the distance between
them, and I guess I still do. But it's been played out like a sine
wave, where Kate slowly digests events and seems about to reach out,
but then something new happens... it felt a little repetitious this
week, but I don't object to the idea. We'll see how long that keeps
happening, huh?
> And Angel screwed up too. Mostly not his fault, but still his doing. He's
> the triggering element that led the vampires to come a killing. And even at
> the very end, his knock on the door is what stopped Kate's father from
> getting his gun and at least giving himself a fighting chance at escape.
You're right; not his fault at all, but he does cause more harm than
good as far as Mr. lockley is concerned.
> I'm still waiting for an episode to call Excellent. But I enjoyed this a
> lot and think it's a very solid Good.
It's a little weird that I'm always kinda glad to see you enjoy an
episode more than I do. I guess I want both of us to end up loving the
show, even if we differ on the particulars.
-AOQ
Stephen Tempest
>At this point, no one has said anything about Darla's original
>nationality.
LIAM: Where are you from?
DARLA: Around. Everywhere.
I think that's the closest we've got to it. :)
Stephen
Slayah
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
snip...Rohm doesn't really sell the pain when he gets killed
>> either.
> Rohm does not appear to do strong emotion well. Probably a good
> thing that she's playing a role where she's been taught since
> childhood to suppress emotion.
I'm surprised you both say this. I thought she did a great job of
selling the pain when she saw her father on the floor. What else was she
supposed to do? She flung herself, sobbing, on his dead body. Simple,
clear pain. Then all she could really say to Angel was Get out get out.
I felt her devastation.
Mel
Don Sample wrote:
> In article <e46d7h$7ok$1...@emma.aioe.org>, "Apteryx" <apt...@xtra.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
>
>>"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:1147526402....@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>>>(As has been noted somewhere else, Julie Benz is just too hot to need
>>>to bother with such things as Irish accents, despite the old-style
>>>speech patterns.
>>
>>Was she meant to be Irish? I didn't notice (possibly because Julie Benz is
>>also too hot for me to notice inconsistencies in her accent).
>
>
> At this point, no one has said anything about Darla's original
> nationality.
>
Nope. But I think that she wasn't Irish (by accent, at least) is just
one more thing that made her so interesting to Liam.
Mel
eli...@gmail.com
>do that... kill a demon in front of me and then act like we're going
>to get a cappuccino together. It doesn't work that way." "How
>does it work?" "I'm not convinced it does... We don't get
>personal. I'm not your girlfriend."
Buffy (see 'Reptile Boy'!). Lovely continuity. :)
Arbitrar Of Quality
Hey, that's cool. I seem to remember that Buffy was the one who killed
the snake, but my memory has no room for the exact details of "Reptile
Boy." It's still a cool touch, coincidence or not (and I wouldn't put
it past Joss and David to do it deliberately).
-AOQ
One Bit Shy
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>> "What we once were informs all that we have become." That's pretty
>> potent
>> to me - and worth the price of admission for the back story all by
>> itself.
>> That idea has been hinted at before, but I don't think so explicitly
>> stated - and especially not so globally. *All* that we have become.
>> Just
>> the notion that Angelus might care that his father will never be able to
>> approve of him seems a huge departure from BtVS's early notion of what
>> vampires are.
>
> And much for the better.
My BtVS experience agrees. I'm a little nervous about AtS. I think one can
push this direction too far. You don't want the demon world to just be
humans with big teeth and bad skin. I believe it's important that they
retain a decidedly un-human world view - if for no other reason than to keep
Angel unique as someone who doesn't quite fit in either world. Since I
think AtS operates more in the demon world it ought to be interesting to see
how it handles that line.
>> In retrospect, the scene becomes very sad, for the small step is
>> smothered
>> by her father's death. I suspect beyond recovery.
>
> You think so? I keep expecting them to overcome the distance between
> them, and I guess I still do. But it's been played out like a sine
> wave, where Kate slowly digests events and seems about to reach out,
> but then something new happens... it felt a little repetitious this
> week, but I don't object to the idea. We'll see how long that keeps
> happening, huh?
I don't really know, but I lean that way, yeah. Before she found out Angel
was a vampire (not that long ago), Kate was kind of flirting with Angel and
absolutely trusted him. She recovered some of both aspects by the middle of
this episode, but nowhere near as far as she was before. (In other words,
the peak of the sine wave is much lower.) The downside last time was more a
general response to the idea of a demon world and Angel as vampire. It did
get personal by her own life in jepardy, but she escaped mostly unhurt.
This time she lost her father. I don't know how much she might blame Angel,
but at the least she knows he was there and didn't save him. The valley of
this sine wave seems lower.
It feels to me like the show is establishing a history designed to block
personal closeness, especially with trust. There's always the potential for
recovery (just write it that way) - especially for a professional
relationship - but it seems to me that they're moving more towards a
conflict.
>> I'm still waiting for an episode to call Excellent. But I enjoyed this a
>> lot and think it's a very solid Good.
>
> It's a little weird that I'm always kinda glad to see you enjoy an
> episode more than I do. I guess I want both of us to end up loving the
> show, even if we differ on the particulars.
It's not weird. You're just feeling guilty at making me buy the DVDs even
though you knew I was luke warm towards the character in BtVS. (Just
kidding. I always planned to get the series eventually. What better time
than this?)
You and I are always going to see different things in these series, but I
think we've both been in a similar place about Angel for a while now.
Waiting for the series to somehow assert itself and become something
special - and getting nervous about its continued struggle to do so. We've
both seen BtVS and Firefly, so our expectations for Angel are higher than
what's been delivered.
Not that I'm seriously put off by the series. On the contrary, I've enjoyed
it fine. Some episodes have been a lot of fun for me - like this one. And,
hell, maybe they'll build off it this time. I don't know. But for now the
general impression is a pretty disconnected series of MOTW episodes that are
easy enough to watch but not near as good as what was done S1 of BtVS -
especially with regard to the regular characters.
I suspect I'm more spoiled on AtS than you. Enough to be pretty confident
that the character of the series will change. But not spoiled enough to
know when, how thoroughly, or how effectively. So I retain hope for a big
uptick in quality. I certainly do want to end up loving the show. And I
hope it works that way for you too in the end.
OBS
One Bit Shy
news:hXF9g.58373$x97....@news-wrt-01.rdc-nyc.rr.com...
In context I meant that I don't believe Rohm, as an actress, is terribly
demonstrative. That's not her strength. But also, that the role she plays
isn't terribly demonstrative either. So, net effect is that I don't mind
this performance. In this case I believe the emotion is found in the
situation more so than in the expression.
OBS
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> Hey, that's cool. I seem to remember that Buffy was the one who killed
> the snake, but my memory has no room for the exact details of "Reptile
> Boy." It's still a cool touch, coincidence or not (and I wouldn't put
> it past Joss and David to do it deliberately).
Angel does seem to fall into certain patterns in his relationships with
blondes, doesn't he?
-- Mike Zeares
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> the past scenes. In an abstract way, it's nice to fill in a few
> pieces about how Angel first came to Darla's attention, what he was
> like when he first rose from the grave, and so on. But there's a
> sense of "so what?" to the whole exercise, especially before the
> fatherhood themes become obvious, like we're showing flashbacks just
> for the sake of throwing in some flashbacks. Also, and this is partly
one of the problems is that angel started
about at the end of forever knight
in case you dont remember it nick knight was a vampire
who was trying to be a good person instead of a parasite
and trying to discover how to become human again
while working as a police detective
driving around in his cadillac convertible
(because it had the largest trunk of any car)
in the pilot nick killed his sire lacroix
but every episode featured lacroix in flashbacks
relating to the crisis of the week and nicks struggle to be human
later in the series lacroix suddenly showed up unalive again
without any explanation that i know of
i dont know if whedon was homaging forever knight or what
but angel came uncomfortably close to being a copy in its first season
then veered off bringing in more demony supernatural themes
(in forever knight vampirism was a biological process
like a cancer but with a purpose
instead of demonic possession of a corpse
so its conflicts remained among human concerns
instead of hell dimensions and really really big snakes)
Don Sample
<mair_fheal-D3B2B...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> one of the problems is that angel started
> about at the end of forever knight
>
> in case you dont remember it nick knight was a vampire
> who was trying to be a good person instead of a parasite
> and trying to discover how to become human again
> while working as a police detective
> driving around in his cadillac convertible
> (because it had the largest trunk of any car)
>
> in the pilot nick killed his sire lacroix
> but every episode featured lacroix in flashbacks
> relating to the crisis of the week and nicks struggle to be human
>
> later in the series lacroix suddenly showed up unalive again
> without any explanation that i know of
>
> i dont know if whedon was homaging forever knight or what
> but angel came uncomfortably close to being a copy in its first season
> then veered off bringing in more demony supernatural themes
The ME people claim that they never saw Forever Knight. In an upcoming
episode, one of the guest stars will be the guy who played Schanke, and
when fans commented on that in various places after the episode aired,
Tim Minear said that if they'd known that, they never would have hired
the actor for the part they did.
eli...@gmail.com
touch! Speaking of 'Reptile Boy', here's a bit that was cut from the
script, since they didn't have time to film it:
CORDELIA (cont'd) (to Tom): You're going to jail for about fifteen
thousand years. Oh god, it's over... it's really...
That's when Machida, re-joined, suddenly pops up again.
Angel takes a threatening step forward next to Buffy and growls.
Machida towers over Tom:
MACHIDA: For a hundred years I have given your forebearers wealth and
power. And this is how you repay me. From this day forth you are alone
in the world.
Machida slides back down. Cordelia is afraid to breathe. With good
reason. Machida pops back up, grabs Tom.
MACHIDA (cont'd): Lil' somethin' for the road.
Machida disappears into the pit with Tom. We hear Tom's screams, a
quick couple of chomps and then silence.
:)
Slayah
I understand. I happen to think non-demonstrative acting and people in
real life are more appealing, but that's my own personal taste. I'd
rather see someone underact than overact.
Tammy Davis
>>>From there, I have to say that I wasn't tremendously excited about
>>the past scenes. In an abstract way, it's nice to fill in a few
>>pieces about how Angel first came to Darla's attention, what he was
>>like when he first rose from the grave, and so on. But there's a
>>sense of "so what?" to the whole exercise, especially before the
>>fatherhood themes become obvious, like we're showing flashbacks just
>>for the sake of throwing in some flashbacks. Also, and this is partly
>
>
> one of the problems is that angel started
> about at the end of forever knight
>
> in case you dont remember it nick knight was a vampire
> who was trying to be a good person instead of a parasite
> and trying to discover how to become human again
> while working as a police detective
> driving around in his cadillac convertible
> (because it had the largest trunk of any car)
>
> in the pilot nick killed his sire lacroix
> but every episode featured lacroix in flashbacks
> relating to the crisis of the week and nicks struggle to be human
>
> later in the series lacroix suddenly showed up unalive again
> without any explanation that i know of
>
> i dont know if whedon was homaging forever knight or what
> but angel came uncomfortably close to being a copy in its first season
> then veered off bringing in more demony supernatural themes
I was a big fan of Forever Knight and I never got the impression that
Angel was getting close to being a copy of Forever Knight. Mainly
because Nick Knight whined a hell of a lot more about being a vampire
than Angel ever did and it was Knight's constant efforts to find
a "cure" for his vampirism that drove the show.
Although its obvious that Angel does wish he was human, he rarely
complains about being a vampire and even rarer still tries to find
a so-called cure for his vampirism.
James Craine
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
>>>From there, I have to say that I wasn't tremendously excited about
>>the past scenes. In an abstract way, it's nice to fill in a few
>>pieces about how Angel first came to Darla's attention, what he was
>>like when he first rose from the grave, and so on. But there's a
>>sense of "so what?" to the whole exercise, especially before the
>>fatherhood themes become obvious, like we're showing flashbacks just
>>for the sake of throwing in some flashbacks. Also, and this is partly
>
>
> one of the problems is that angel started
> about at the end of forever knight
>
> in case you dont remember it nick knight was a vampire
> who was trying to be a good person instead of a parasite
> and trying to discover how to become human again
> while working as a police detective
> driving around in his cadillac convertible
> (because it had the largest trunk of any car)
1954 Fleetwood if memory serves.
> in the pilot nick killed his sire lacroix
> but every episode featured lacroix in flashbacks
> relating to the crisis of the week and nicks struggle to be human
>
> later in the series lacroix suddenly showed up unalive again
> without any explanation that i know of
Wasn't there some comment about the knives being made of metal?
> i dont know if whedon was homaging forever knight or what
> but angel came uncomfortably close to being a copy in its first season
> then veered off bringing in more demony supernatural themes
I figured he might have been trying to avoid being too much
like FK. Hence the line about "...it's the thing that killed
your friend." I think his may be the only vampire mythos to
do this.
> (in forever knight vampirism was a biological process
> like a cancer but with a purpose
> instead of demonic possession of a corpse
> so its conflicts remained among human concerns
> instead of hell dimensions and really really big snakes)
The downside of being an FK vampire doesn't seem all that
terrible to me. You stay you, you get biological
immortality, and you don't HAVE to be evil. It would be a
lot harder to make the case that Ford should not want to be
an FK vamp.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> > but every episode featured lacroix in flashbacks
> > relating to the crisis of the week and nicks struggle to be human
> >
> > later in the series lacroix suddenly showed up unalive again
> > without any explanation that i know of
>
> Wasn't there some comment about the knives being made of metal?
they pinned lacroix to the wall until the fire got him
> The downside of being an FK vampire doesn't seem all that
> terrible to me. You stay you, you get biological
> immortality, and you don't HAVE to be evil. It would be a
> lot harder to make the case that Ford should not want to be
> an FK vamp.
or just set up hospices around the world
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure