AOQ Review 7-3: "Same Time, Same Place"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Seven, Episode 3: "Same Time, Same Place"
(or "I guess *this* demon doesn't have high cholesterol")
Writer: Jane Espenson
Director: James A. Contner
Once the family walks by for the second time, it's immediately clear
that either the production people were dropping acid on the job, or
it's time to play around with space and time once again. As it turns
out, it's the latter, as Willow fails to meet up with the rest of the
Slaypack. After the verbal sharpness of the yellow crayon scene, the
rest of the early going is slow and moody, full of silence and music as
the audience gets to try to figure out which particular fantasy premise
is involved here: parallel universes? Willow caught in her own fake
world? Except then she chats with Anya, so is it the others who're
in fake-space? "Same Time" doles out how the gimmick works in
pieces, giving the audience a bare minimum of information ("ah, okay,
these scenes are happening at the same time, but only demons see both
sides. Huh."). A full explanation doesn't come until the very
end, where hey, it's caused by Willow's concerns, which have been
solidly established in the previous two weeks. I'm struck by how
leisurely the pace is, how many scenes are just mood-shots, and how
boring it absolutely isn't. Strong writing and direction throughout
help make this a good one to get swept away in.
Perhaps the two highlights of the early portion come with Willow dozing
on the same couch the others are sitting on - it's just a strong
visual - and when Spike gets his visit from everyone simultaneously.
Since the show wisely ensures that we can only see things from one
non-demon POV at a time, this means there's some repetition involved,
but it's worth finding out which seemingly random comments are
actually a response to something else and which are just the crazy guy
being crazy and seeing people who aren't there as usual. Feel free
to wax pretentious about this being a metaphor for people talking past
each other, or whatever. I'd be curious to find out how this one was
done; I didn't double-check to try to figure out whether they filmed
Marsters twice or used the power of film to paste one of the
conversations together. They're certainly taking their time with
William's story, but it'll hold for another week. Xander: "boy,
he's extra useful today." And let us all chuckle.
Other exchanges, on the most mostly-fun side, let Anya and Willow work
together and grudgingly open up to each other a little because, well,
that's what the situation calls for. There're a few explicit
statements about the former not being so happy nowadays, as strongly
suggested in recent weeks. The S6 threads included a lot of dwelling
on Anya being unable to rise above her nature at times, but there are
certainly those moments when she does. Quotables and other fun stuff
here include "wait, Spike's what in the whatment?" "Insane.
Base," and Anya pointing out herself on the demon map. Based on her
final reaction to the return of the demon-locator spell, maybe it's a
Lesbian Spell by nature.
Is that the "Demons, Demons, Demons" website introduced in "The
Ring?" Little between-show nods make me happy. Except not if they
come from the later seasons of ATS that I haven't seen yet, but
there'll be time to appreciate those later.
Our monster who happens to also skin its victims, Gnarl, is kept
off-screen for some time, leading the viewer to hope that it'll be
something cool, or even a familiar foe. Instead, the show goes the
opposite direction. The moment that big absurd cartoony face pops up
onto the screen has the right effect - menace through goofy
sing-song. That's creepier than the standard growling evil when it
comes to very slowly peeling off delicious strips of Willow to nibble
on, in between lapping up blood. That part is more suggestion than
actual graphic content, but still manages to be one of the more
cringe-inducing bits of physical violence of the series. I'm sure
some people will be upset at how easily Willow is caught off guard when
direct magic attacks fail her, but she's alone and confused, and the
monster paralyzes. I'm okay there.
Another thing I'm okay with is the fact that facing this crisis, and
almost losing each other, helps give everyone the boost they need to
get past the initial awkwardness. Crises are nice that way for this
set of characters. I know that I'd have had my misgivings about
seeing Willow again were I a Scoobie at the beginning of the episode,
and would have just wanted to hug her after the events in the cave, so,
mission accomplished.
Speaking of paralysis, Dawn's a sword-bearing part of the team again,
and of course gets herself into trouble immediately. That gives the
episode a chance to go into some extended absurdist comedy, and the
amount of concentrated funny in those few minutes is impressive. One
could pretty much quote the whole scene, but without Trachtenberg's
great annoyed muffled tone and all the sight gags, it's not as funny.
That comes to a head with the Money Moment from Anyanka the helpful
demon: "oh, wouldn't it be tragic if you were here being kinda silly
with your comically paralyzed sister while Willow was dying?"
Hopefully the writers will keep putting forth the effort to find a part
for Anya in S7, because the show can only benefit having someone around
who can so hilariously shift a comic relief scene back into the
episode's main mood and plot.
That shot of Buffy standing in the hallway in just the tank-top makes
her looks so muscular and badass. I think it made it to the opening
credits, actually.
>From there, the closing conversation tugs at the heartstrings
sufficiently. The delivery on "guess I have a ways to go before I
master my powers, huh?" says a lot. She's trying to be a little
self-deprecating and bring out whatever humor there is in the
situation, but that aspect of what's happened is scary. And unwise
to just ignore, but what can anyone actually do? Willow's
unfortunate tendency to try to kill people, destroy the world, etc. at
times of lack of control seems more relevant than ever. Both actors
bring out their A-game for this bit, and having no music until almost
the end helps bring out the straightforward emotions. The effect is to
make one feel that the show has earned its state of love and angst.
I'm impressed by the volume of forgiveness that Buffy can show, even
for a best friend that she's tried to kill too.
Like "After Life" last year, I remember this one as being quiet
and, like I said, moody (other than Comically Posable Dawn), but
there's really plenty of humor on the side - the various quotes
above, plus Spike's "I'm insane. What's his excuse?" and
Anya being out of shape from teleporting, and lots more. And thus Jane
Espenson finally, unknowingly, triumphs in her four-year struggle to
earn herself an AOQ Excellent. That covers the five big series-wide
writers. Now, Steven and Rebecca have their work cut out for them.
I believe this is the first episode of the series to have no Guest
Stars listed up front. Everyone who needs to be credited gets listed
at the end, and the show can be all about our leads.
So...
One-sentence summary: Sucks one right in.
AOQ rating: Excellent
[Season Seven so far:
1) "Lessons" - Good
2) "Beneath You" - Decent
3) "Same Time, Same Place" - Excellent]
lili...@gmail.com
>
> AOQ rating: Excellent
>
> [Season Seven so far:
> 1) "Lessons" - Good
> 2) "Beneath You" - Decent
> 3) "Same Time, Same Place" - Excellent]
OK, this just plain out tells me you have no taste ;-)
I mean, Excellent? I'd give it decent, but no more than that. fifth
worst ep of the season as far as I'm concerned.
Lore
(Harmony) Watcher
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1158037790.7...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 3: "Same Time, Same Place"
> (or "I guess *this* demon doesn't have high cholesterol")
> Writer: Jane Espenson
> Director: James A. Contner
>
>
> Our monster who happens to also skin its victims, Gnarl, is kept
> off-screen for some time, leading the viewer to hope that it'll be
> something cool, or even a familiar foe. Instead, the show goes the
> opposite direction. The moment that big absurd cartoony face pops up
> onto the screen has the right effect - menace through goofy
> sing-song. That's creepier than the standard growling evil when it
> comes to very slowly peeling off delicious strips of Willow to nibble
> on, in between lapping up blood. That part is more suggestion than
> actual graphic content, but still manages to be one of the more
> cringe-inducing bits of physical violence of the series. I'm sure
> some people will be upset at how easily Willow is caught off guard when
> direct magic attacks fail her, but she's alone and confused, and the
> monster paralyzes. I'm okay there.
>
--
==Harmony Watcher==
(Harmony) Watcher
<lili...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1158039901.3...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
--
==Harmony Watcher==
lili...@gmail.com
Well that too*g*
Lore
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> Season Seven, Episode 3: "Same Time, Same Place"
> (or "I guess *this* demon doesn't have high cholesterol")
> Writer: Jane Espenson
> Director: James A. Contner
among other things the first three episodes touch on matters
of judgement and mercy and expediency
willow has fully accepted her guilt and expects no mercy
she expects to be executed or imprisoned
and was surprised instead with mercy
actually beyond surprise to disbelief she would receive it
spike drapes himself upon a cross in self immolation
to receive his punishment expecting no and requesting no mercy
earlier he had made himself appear evil to ensure he would receive no mercy
and buffy in the chapel stake in hand pauses
and then decides spike did not deserve to be destroyed for what he had done
the stated purpose of a penitentary is for the prisoner to reflect on his crime
to accept his guilt and resolve to do better
spike and willow have already reached that point
now what they need is to learn to control themselves
and reintegratrate themselves into society
of course there is another view justice in this episode
ANYA Here's something you should know about vengeance demons: We don't group
with the "sorry." We prefer "Oh, God, please stop hitting me with my own rib
bones."
if anya had been successful in her justuce against xander
nobody wouldve stopped willow sucking the life out of the world
killing the humans and perhaps anya as well
- an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind
of course one could argue that anya doesnt have the right to judge xander
this is the question of jurisdiction
or who judges whether judges are allowed to judge
who decided a coven in england has the right to judge willow
or a council of watchers to judge betty?
who decided a slayer gets to decide whether a demon lives or dies?
who decided anya gets to turn men into worms?
in the real world does the international criminal court
have jurisdiction over all nations
or only over those that agree to it?
the answer is that a court has jurisdiction
if it can enforce its judgements
finally willow does not believe she is ready to be released to the wild
and the events of the episode show that she cannot yet completely control herself
but something unpleasant this way comes
and the forces of good would array their forces ready or not
in preparation for the next apocalypse
whether willow should be allowed out in some moral code
it is expedient to set her in place
and expediency isnt about justic its about survival
WILLOW Go on. Say whatever you want. Rib bones and so forth. I-I deserve it.
ANYA Then you won't mind? (Willow shakes her head no) Well, then, that's no fun.
also perhaps those complain the most about mercy
are not interested in justice but vengeance
> Perhaps the two highlights of the early portion come with Willow dozing
> on the same couch the others are sitting on - it's just a strong
> visual - and when Spike gets his visit from everyone simultaneously.
it also shows they are not merely hidden from each others view
they are able to occupy the same space at the same time
> Other exchanges, on the most mostly-fun side, let Anya and Willow work
> together and grudgingly open up to each other a little because, well,
> that's what the situation calls for. There're a few explicit
and is anya excited or repulsed that
it might involve a little girl on girl action?
> Hopefully the writers will keep putting forth the effort to find a part
> for Anya in S7, because the show can only benefit having someone around
> who can so hilariously shift a comic relief scene back into the
> episode's main mood and plot.
she gets a chip (nacho)
falls in loves with buffy
and goes off to the cobblers to be resoled
meow arf meow - they are performing horrible experiments in space
major grubert is watching you - beware the bakalite
there can only be one or two - the airtight garage has you neo
William George Ferguson
wrote:
Another very good moment was when they were trying to track down whether
Willow had ever arrived, calling England, and Dawn showing, as she has
before, that forgiveness is not her strong suit.
"So Giles is blaming Giles, and we're blaming us. Is anyone gonna blame
Willow?"
>Since the show wisely ensures that we can only see things from one
>non-demon POV at a time, this means there's some repetition involved,
>but it's worth finding out which seemingly random comments are
>actually a response to something else and which are just the crazy guy
>being crazy and seeing people who aren't there as usual.
What this did for me when I saw the scene from both sides, was lead me to
the conclusion that maybe *none* of his conversations were with imaginary
people. His apparently random comments, which were shown to be a
double-sided conversation with two groups invisible to each, is the same
kind of conversation we've seen him have before. I mean, we have seen, as
the scoobies haven't, Morphy (that's the name we started using for it
while trying to figure out what was going on).
>Is that the "Demons, Demons, Demons" website introduced in "The
>Ring?" Little between-show nods make me happy. Except not if they
>come from the later seasons of ATS that I haven't seen yet, but
>there'll be time to appreciate those later.
I always suspected that Willow was actually the webmistress for the site.
>Our monster who happens to also skin its victims, Gnarl, is kept
>off-screen for some time, leading the viewer to hope that it'll be
>something cool, or even a familiar foe. Instead, the show goes the
>opposite direction. The moment that big absurd cartoony face pops up
>onto the screen has the right effect - menace through goofy
>sing-song. That's creepier than the standard growling evil when it
>comes to very slowly peeling off delicious strips of Willow to nibble
>on, in between lapping up blood. That part is more suggestion than
>actual graphic content, but still manages to be one of the more
>cringe-inducing bits of physical violence of the series. I'm sure
>some people will be upset at how easily Willow is caught off guard when
>direct magic attacks fail her, but she's alone and confused, and the
>monster paralyzes. I'm okay there.
>Another thing I'm okay with is the fact that facing this crisis, and
>almost losing each other, helps give everyone the boost they need to
>get past the initial awkwardness. Crises are nice that way for this
>set of characters. I know that I'd have had my misgivings about
>seeing Willow again were I a Scoobie at the beginning of the episode,
>and would have just wanted to hug her after the events in the cave, so,
>mission accomplished.
Plus, the scene on the bed established that Willow knew she was the first
one suspected, and acknowledged that Buffy was right to do so. That's one
of those consequences she doesn't have, from this point forward, when
magic goes askew, she's suspect number 1, she's earned the privilege.
>Speaking of paralysis, Dawn's a sword-bearing part of the team again,
>and of course gets herself into trouble immediately. That gives the
>episode a chance to go into some extended absurdist comedy, and the
>amount of concentrated funny in those few minutes is impressive. One
>could pretty much quote the whole scene, but without Trachtenberg's
>great annoyed muffled tone and all the sight gags, it's not as funny.
> That comes to a head with the Money Moment from Anyanka the helpful
>demon: "oh, wouldn't it be tragic if you were here being kinda silly
>with your comically paralyzed sister while Willow was dying?"
>Hopefully the writers will keep putting forth the effort to find a part
>for Anya in S7, because the show can only benefit having someone around
>who can so hilariously shift a comic relief scene back into the
>episode's main mood and plot.
Back when originally shown, there was a fair amount of outrage from some
people about using Posable Dawn for comedy, which shows that you don't
have the least sense of humor on this newsgroup.
--
... and my sister is a vampire slayer, her best friend is a witch who
went bonkers and tried to destroy the world, um, I actually used to be
a little ball of energy until about two years ago when some monks
changed the past and made me Buffy's sister and for some reason, a big
klepto. My best friends are Leticia Jones, who moved to San Diego
because this town is evil, and a floppy eared demon named Clem.
(Dawn's fantasy of her intro speech in "Lessons", from the shooting script)
Apteryx
news:1158037790.7...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
> pieces, giving the audience a bare minimum of information ("ah, okay,
> these scenes are happening at the same time, but only demons see both
> sides. Huh.").
Mm, my assumption was that the the zone of confusion was narrower than that,
and that it was just Buffy, Xander and Dawn who couldn't see Willow. True,
we only see demons interacting with Willow, but surely it would have been
obvious to Willow much earlier what was going on if she hadn't seen a living
human soul in Sunnydale.
> Perhaps the two highlights of the early portion come with Willow dozing
> on the same couch the others are sitting on - it's just a strong
> visual - and when Spike gets his visit from everyone simultaneously.
> Since the show wisely ensures that we can only see things from one
> non-demon POV at a time, this means there's some repetition involved,
> but it's worth finding out which seemingly random comments are
> actually a response to something else and which are just the crazy guy
> being crazy and seeing people who aren't there as usual. Feel free
> to wax pretentious about this being a metaphor for people talking past
> each other, or whatever.
Pretentious, nous? It's nice to see Spike talking to someone who isn't there
who is there. Though even given that, there is is bit of random OTT
"madness"
> Other exchanges, on the most mostly-fun side, let Anya and Willow work
> together and grudgingly open up to each other a little because, well,
> that's what the situation calls for. There're a few explicit
> statements about the former not being so happy nowadays, as strongly
> suggested in recent weeks. The S6 threads included a lot of dwelling
> on Anya being unable to rise above her nature at times, but there are
> certainly those moments when she does. Quotables and other fun stuff
> here include "wait, Spike's what in the whatment?" "Insane.
> Base," and Anya pointing out herself on the demon map. Based on her
> final reaction to the return of the demon-locator spell, maybe it's a
> Lesbian Spell by nature.
Xander the lesbian-maker?
>
> Our monster who happens to also skin its victims, Gnarl, is kept
> off-screen for some time, leading the viewer to hope that it'll be
> something cool, or even a familiar foe. Instead, the show goes the
> opposite direction. The moment that big absurd cartoony face pops up
> onto the screen has the right effect - menace through goofy
> sing-song.
Yeah, but mostly its just a pretty lame monster. I'm sure it looked great in
the stills when they were approvng the concept though.
>
> Speaking of paralysis, Dawn's a sword-bearing part of the team again,
> and of course gets herself into trouble immediately. That gives the
> episode a chance to go into some extended absurdist comedy, and the
> amount of concentrated funny in those few minutes is impressive. One
> could pretty much quote the whole scene, but without Trachtenberg's
> great annoyed muffled tone and all the sight gags, it's not as funny.
Posable Dawn is a season highlight for me. Bit sad really, when I come to
think of it,
> That comes to a head with the Money Moment from Anyanka the helpful
> demon: "oh, wouldn't it be tragic if you were here being kinda silly
> with your comically paralyzed sister while Willow was dying?"
> Hopefully the writers will keep putting forth the effort to find a part
> for Anya in S7, because the show can only benefit having someone around
> who can so hilariously shift a comic relief scene back into the
> episode's main mood and plot.
Even more than the reconciliation of Willow and posable Dawn, Anya makes
this episode for me. That's what the series needs of right now, we want more
Anya. If this was the first broadcast of these episodes, I'd be starting a
petition (but like you, I only saw this episode after the series ended).
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Sucks one right in.
>
> AOQ rating: Excellent
I wouldn't go quite that far, but it is one of my favourites of the season.
Its Good for me, 52nd best BtVS episode, 3rd best in season 7 (though its
some distance behind the 2nd placed one, so sort of the leader of the
following pack).
Apteryx
Rowan Hawthorn
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 3: "Same Time, Same Place"
> (or "I guess *this* demon doesn't have high cholesterol")
> Writer: Jane Espenson
> Director: James A. Contner
>
> on the same couch the others are sitting on - it's just a strong
> visual - and when Spike gets his visit from everyone simultaneously.
> Since the show wisely ensures that we can only see things from one
> non-demon POV at a time, this means there's some repetition involved,
> but it's worth finding out which seemingly random comments are
> actually a response to something else and which are just the crazy guy
> being crazy and seeing people who aren't there as usual. Feel free
> to wax pretentious about this being a metaphor for people talking past
> each other, or whatever. I'd be curious to find out how this one was
> done; I didn't double-check to try to figure out whether they filmed
> Marsters twice or used the power of film to paste one of the
> conversations together.
Filmed it twice. There are a few spots where his dialogues don't match.
> Other exchanges, on the most mostly-fun side, let Anya and Willow work
> together and grudgingly open up to each other a little because, well,
> that's what the situation calls for. There're a few explicit
> statements about the former not being so happy nowadays, as strongly
> suggested in recent weeks. The S6 threads included a lot of dwelling
> on Anya being unable to rise above her nature at times, but there are
> certainly those moments when she does. Quotables and other fun stuff
> here include "wait, Spike's what in the whatment?" "Insane.
> Base,"
Apparently, Anya still doesn't really grasp the concept of rhetorical
questions.
> Another thing I'm okay with is the fact that facing this crisis, and
> almost losing each other, helps give everyone the boost they need to
> get past the initial awkwardness. Crises are nice that way for this
> set of characters. I know that I'd have had my misgivings about
> seeing Willow again were I a Scoobie at the beginning of the episode,
> and would have just wanted to hug her after the events in the cave, so,
> mission accomplished.
Yeah, Willow breaking down when she realizes they haven't deserted her
after all...
>
> Speaking of paralysis, Dawn's a sword-bearing part of the team again,
> and of course gets herself into trouble immediately. That gives the
> episode a chance to go into some extended absurdist comedy, and the
> amount of concentrated funny in those few minutes is impressive. One
> could pretty much quote the whole scene, but without Trachtenberg's
> great annoyed muffled tone and all the sight gags, it's not as funny.
There was some dialogue trimmed from the script that I *really* wish
they'd kept. On the way home with the paralyzed Dawn:
DAWN: M so emb'rffed.
XANDER: There's no need to be embarrassed.
A GROUP OF (5 or 6) KIDS DAWN'S AGE pass going the other way. They stare.
BUFFY: (lamely) Right. No need for that.
DAWN: Thoz kds? D'ey see me? Tell'my drnk.
BUFFY: What?! I'm not going to tell them you're drunk! For God's sake, Dawn.
And of course, Buffy and Xander carrying Dawn through the door like a
rolled-up carpet to the Dawnster's panicked "Wtchmy hed! Wtchmy hed!"
>
>>From there, the closing conversation tugs at the heartstrings
> sufficiently. The delivery on "guess I have a ways to go before I
> master my powers, huh?" says a lot. She's trying to be a little
> self-deprecating and bring out whatever humor there is in the
> situation, but that aspect of what's happened is scary. And unwise
> to just ignore, but what can anyone actually do? Willow's
> unfortunate tendency to try to kill people, destroy the world, etc. at
> times of lack of control seems more relevant than ever. Both actors
> bring out their A-game for this bit, and having no music until almost
> the end helps bring out the straightforward emotions. The effect is to
> make one feel that the show has earned its state of love and angst.
> I'm impressed by the volume of forgiveness that Buffy can show, even
> for a best friend that she's tried to kill too.
>
>
> One-sentence summary: Sucks one right in.
>
> AOQ rating: Excellent
>
Damn straight.
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Rowan Hawthorn
>> AOQ rating: Excellent
>>
>> [Season Seven so far:
>> 1) "Lessons" - Good
>> 2) "Beneath You" - Decent
>> 3) "Same Time, Same Place" - Excellent]
>
> OK, this just plain out tells me you have no taste ;-)
You misspelled "exceptional taste."
>
> I mean, Excellent? I'd give it decent, but no more than that. fifth
> worst ep of the season as far as I'm concerned.
Yeah, well, they can't all be about Spike...
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 3: "Same Time, Same Place"
> (or "I guess *this* demon doesn't have high cholesterol")
> Writer: Jane Espenson
> Director: James A. Contner
>
> Once the family walks by for the second time, it's immediately clear
> that either the production people were dropping acid on the job, or
> it's time to play around with space and time once again. As it turns
> out, it's the latter, as Willow fails to meet up with the rest of the
> Slaypack. After the verbal sharpness of the yellow crayon scene, the
> rest of the early going is slow and moody, full of silence and music as
> the audience gets to try to figure out which particular fantasy premise
> is involved here: parallel universes? Willow caught in her own fake
> world? Except then she chats with Anya, so is it the others who're
> in fake-space? "Same Time" doles out how the gimmick works in
> pieces, giving the audience a bare minimum of information ("ah, okay,
> these scenes are happening at the same time, but only demons see both
> sides. Huh.").
I think it's just Buffy, Xander and Dawn who can't see Willow, and
Willow is the only one who can't see them. Anyone else who happened
along would be able to see all of them.
You know, Willow's been trying to do that spell for a long time. This
is the first time we've ever seen her actually get to complete it.
> Is that the "Demons, Demons, Demons" website introduced in "The
> Ring?" Little between-show nods make me happy. Except not if they
> come from the later seasons of ATS that I haven't seen yet, but
> there'll be time to appreciate those later.
Yes. The DDDdb was first introduced on Angel. I don't recall which
episode. And we get to see Dawn exercising her researcher chops here
too.
>
> Our monster who happens to also skin its victims, Gnarl, is kept
> off-screen for some time, leading the viewer to hope that it'll be
> something cool, or even a familiar foe. Instead, the show goes the
> opposite direction. The moment that big absurd cartoony face pops up
> onto the screen has the right effect - menace through goofy
> sing-song. That's creepier than the standard growling evil when it
> comes to very slowly peeling off delicious strips of Willow to nibble
> on, in between lapping up blood. That part is more suggestion than
> actual graphic content, but still manages to be one of the more
> cringe-inducing bits of physical violence of the series. I'm sure
> some people will be upset at how easily Willow is caught off guard when
> direct magic attacks fail her, but she's alone and confused, and the
> monster paralyzes. I'm okay there.
Gnarl is considered by many to be the creepiest demon in the entire run
of Buffy (Along with the Gentlemen, one of whom was portrayed by Camden
Toy, who played Gnarl. So CT is pretty much the hands down winner of
the "creepiest performer in Buffy or Angel" (He gets to play a pretty
creepy demon guy in season 4 of Angel too, and he's still got a couple
more appearances to go in Buffy with high creep factors as well.))
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Ian Galbraith
I'd rate all 3 Good. I like the leisurely set up in these initial
episodes, which are all good characterisation pieces.
--
You can't stop the signal
lili...@gmail.com
Unfortunately*g*
This is though, this ep is slow, drags and spends far too much time on
Willow for me to enjoy it the slightest bit. I'll admit that a big part
of what ruins it for me is that I hate Willow and can't stand AH's
acting. So an ep centered around AH tends to fail for me from the get
go.
Lore
Lore
vague disclaimer
William George Ferguson <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> I always suspected that Willow was actually the webmistress for the site.
You know, until the moment I read this, it had never occurred to me that
the term 'webmistress' could seem smutty.
I a good way, of course.
Ahem.
I said that out loud again didn't I?
--
Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
Elisi
This is excellent.
Elisi
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 3: "Same Time, Same Place"
> (or "I guess *this* demon doesn't have high cholesterol")
> Writer: Jane Espenson
> Director: James A. Contner
> I'm struck by how
> leisurely the pace is, how many scenes are just mood-shots, and how
> boring it absolutely isn't. Strong writing and direction throughout
> help make this a good one to get swept away in.
Yes. I'm doing a S7 re-watch myself, and I really enjoy this one. It's
a good concept, it addresses all the fears of the various characters,
and also Willow gets the punishment she 'deserves'.
None of the issues are swept under the carpet - is Willow evil again?
How far has she 'recovered'? Is Buffy right or wrong to suspect her
best friend?
We also have the wonderful scenes with Anya and Willow, which might be
my favourite:
ANYA
Well, causing pain sounds really cool, I know, but turns out it's
really upsetting. Didn't use to be, but now it is.
WILLOW
Is it like you're scared of losing that feeling again. And that having
it be OK to hurt people. And then you're not in charge of the power
anymore because it's in charge of you?
ANYA
Wow, that was really over-dramatically stated, but, yeah, that's it.
WILLOW
I get it. Believe me.
ANYA
(sincerely) I'm sorry, Willow. I wish it were better for you.
WILLOW
You too.
The fact that these two, who never liked each other much, suddenly have
so much in common and are able to connect, really works for me. I
watched 'Doopelgangland' the other day, where Anya gets Willow to help
her with her spell (to get back her pendant) and the growth and changes
these two have been through is just amazing.
> Perhaps the two highlights of the early portion come with Willow dozing
> on the same couch the others are sitting on - it's just a strong
> visual -
*nods*
> and when Spike gets his visit from everyone simultaneously.
SPIKE
You went away. You've been gone since...
BUFFY
The church. You scared me a little. I didn't-I didn't know what to
think.
'Scared me a little' is rather an understatement. Also I don't think
much time has lapsed between the end of BY and STSP - Willow was
leaving for the airport in the former, so not more than a day or two.
(Amongst the Spike fans there was great outrage that Buffy didn't bring
Spike home after the scene in the church, and look after him the way
she did Angel. How could she let him live in that horrible basement?)
I think you were worried in BY if the whole S/B thing was 'starting up
again', and here's the similar timeline for Angel if you want to
compare: Beauty and the Beasts - Buffy finds out Angel's back, ties him
up etc. Three episodes later (Revelations) they're kissing. Next ep.
she breaks up with him. Then they sort of drift back together what with
apocalypses etc, before *he* breaks up with her in The Prom. It would
seem Buffy is using more of a 'Tough Love' approach with Spike.
> Our monster who happens to also skin its victims, Gnarl, is kept
> off-screen for some time, leading the viewer to hope that it'll be
> something cool, or even a familiar foe. Instead, the show goes the
> opposite direction. The moment that big absurd cartoony face pops up
> onto the screen has the right effect - menace through goofy
> sing-song.
They molded him after Gollum, if I remember right.
> That's creepier than the standard growling evil when it
> comes to very slowly peeling off delicious strips of Willow to nibble
> on, in between lapping up blood. That part is more suggestion than
> actual graphic content, but still manages to be one of the more
> cringe-inducing bits of physical violence of the series.
As I mentioned above - she flayed Warren. Now she gets to be flayed
herself, just really, really, really slowly. Justice, Joss-style.
> I'm sure
> some people will be upset at how easily Willow is caught off guard when
> direct magic attacks fail her, but she's alone and confused, and the
> monster paralyzes. I'm okay there.
Even Buffy has problems.
> Another thing I'm okay with is the fact that facing this crisis, and
> almost losing each other, helps give everyone the boost they need to
> get past the initial awkwardness. Crises are nice that way for this
> set of characters. I know that I'd have had my misgivings about
> seeing Willow again were I a Scoobie at the beginning of the episode,
> and would have just wanted to hug her after the events in the cave, so,
> mission accomplished.
>
> Speaking of paralysis, Dawn's a sword-bearing part of the team again,
> and of course gets herself into trouble immediately.
You didn't mention her extreme calloussness. The girl was made for
research:
DAWN
(smiling) Then this is your guy. He laps up the blood. You could say
it's like his natural beverage.
XANDER
(points at Dawn) You're terrifying.
> >From there, the closing conversation tugs at the heartstrings
> sufficiently. The delivery on "guess I have a ways to go before I
> master my powers, huh?" says a lot. She's trying to be a little
> self-deprecating and bring out whatever humor there is in the
> situation, but that aspect of what's happened is scary. And unwise
> to just ignore, but what can anyone actually do? Willow's
> unfortunate tendency to try to kill people, destroy the world, etc. at
> times of lack of control seems more relevant than ever. Both actors
> bring out their A-game for this bit, and having no music until almost
> the end helps bring out the straightforward emotions. The effect is to
> make one feel that the show has earned its state of love and angst.
> I'm impressed by the volume of forgiveness that Buffy can show, even
> for a best friend that she's tried to kill too.
>
> Like "After Life" last year, I remember this one as being quiet
> and, like I said, moody (other than Comically Posable Dawn), but
> there's really plenty of humor on the side - the various quotes
> above, plus Spike's "I'm insane. What's his excuse?" and
> Anya being out of shape from teleporting, and lots more.
Nothing to add, all very spot-on.
> AOQ rating: Excellent
>
> [Season Seven so far:
> 1) "Lessons" - Good
I'd give this a high Good, or low Excellent. I'm not sure, but it's one
of those that gets better with every viewing.
> 2) "Beneath You" - Decent
Good for the main part, Excellent for the ending.
> 3) "Same Time, Same Place" - Excellent]
Agreed.
drifter
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 3: "Same Time, Same Place"
> (or "I guess *this* demon doesn't have high cholesterol")
> Writer: Jane Espenson
> Director: James A. Contner
> That shot of Buffy standing in the hallway in just the tank-top makes
> her looks so muscular and badass. I think it made it to the opening
> credits, actually.
Buffy in *just* a tank-top? I'm sure I would have remembered a
bottomless Buffy. Perhaps I should get the DVD out.
I'd like to give a shout out to MT for the job she did as poseable
Dawn. Even AH couldn't help but move her lips when she talked
after being paralyzed, but MT was close to perfect in all her
scenes. And a poseable Dawn would make such a fun, thoughtful
gift, wouldn't it? Best bit: When the gang leaves Dawn alone to go
get Willow, Buffy runs back and puts the TV remote in Dawn's
hand.
I also recall an interview with Aly where she objected to the
prosthetic tummy for Willow being too "chubby." She bellyached
(sorry) that she has a "six-pack." Obviously, the thing to do
would have been to make a full, naked body cast of the young
woman for this show, in the interests of accuracy.
. . . Was that Rowan's head I just heard exploding?
--
Kel
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own."
peachy ashie passion
No. That was mine.
vague disclaimer
I bet people are thinking there's a terrible echo in here....
Mike Zeares
Rowan Hawthorn wrote:
>
> There was some dialogue trimmed from the script that I *really* wish
> they'd kept. On the way home with the paralyzed Dawn:
>
> DAWN: M so emb'rffed.
>
> XANDER: There's no need to be embarrassed.
>
> A GROUP OF (5 or 6) KIDS DAWN'S AGE pass going the other way. They stare.
>
> BUFFY: (lamely) Right. No need for that.
>
> DAWN: Thoz kds? D'ey see me? Tell'my drnk.
>
> BUFFY: What?! I'm not going to tell them you're drunk! For God's sake, Dawn.
>
> And of course, Buffy and Xander carrying Dawn through the door like a
> rolled-up carpet to the Dawnster's panicked "Wtchmy hed! Wtchmy hed!"
I loved her increasingly angry, "Stp tkng abt vmtng!" And her growl at
Anya. My favorite bit, though, was when she squeaked and fell off the
couch.
Posable Dawn is pure high comedy.
-- Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality
Don Sample wrote:
> In article <1158037790.7...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> > Is that the "Demons, Demons, Demons" website introduced in "The
> > Ring?" Little between-show nods make me happy.
>
> Yes. The DDDdb was first introduced on Angel. I don't recall which
> episode.
I know, but I'm not going to tell you.
> Gnarl is considered by many to be the creepiest demon in the entire run
> of Buffy (Along with the Gentlemen, one of whom was portrayed by Camden
> Toy, who played Gnarl. So CT is pretty much the hands down winner of
> the "creepiest performer in Buffy or Angel" (He gets to play a pretty
> creepy demon guy in season 4 of Angel too, and he's still got a couple
> more appearances to go in Buffy with high creep factors as well.))
I'll try to keep an eye out for that name.
-AOQ
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 3: "Same Time, Same Place"
> (or "I guess *this* demon doesn't have high cholesterol")
Heh.
> Writer: Jane Espenson
> Director: James A. Contner
>
> Once the family walks by for the second time, it's immediately clear
> that either the production people were dropping acid on the job, or
> it's time to play around with space and time once again. [snip]
"Same Time" doles out how the gimmick works in
> pieces, giving the audience a bare minimum of information ("ah, okay,
> these scenes are happening at the same time, but only demons see both
> sides. Huh."). A full explanation doesn't come until the very
> end, where hey, it's caused by Willow's concerns, which have been
> solidly established in the previous two weeks. I'm struck by how
> leisurely the pace is, how many scenes are just mood-shots, and how
> boring it absolutely isn't. Strong writing and direction throughout
> help make this a good one to get swept away in.
While I don't like this one quite as much as you do, I agree that it's
a mostly effective mood piece. Note how the Scoobies are now creating
their own supernatural metaphorical thingies, where in earlier seasons
it was the monsters who supplied that. Here the monster is just a
monster. A really creepy monster. "Goofy sing-song" hasn't been the
same for me since the little girl in "Hush" (to which there is a
connection: Gnarl was played by Candem Toy, who was one of the
Gentlemen). Some people thought he was lame, but I was too busy
shuddering and having dry heaves from the skin tearing to notice.
Based on her
> final reaction to the return of the demon-locator spell, maybe it's a
> Lesbian Spell by nature.
Xander leaves the women who love him so shattered that they turn gay!!!
OMFG!!1!
> Speaking of paralysis, Dawn's a sword-bearing part of the team again,
> and of course gets herself into trouble immediately. That gives the
> episode a chance to go into some extended absurdist comedy, and the
> amount of concentrated funny in those few minutes is impressive. One
> could pretty much quote the whole scene, but without Trachtenberg's
> great annoyed muffled tone and all the sight gags, it's not as funny.
She has some talent for physical comedy. Posable Dawn is never not
funny.
> That comes to a head with the Money Moment from Anyanka the helpful
> demon: "oh, wouldn't it be tragic if you were here being kinda silly
> with your comically paralyzed sister while Willow was dying?"
> Hopefully the writers will keep putting forth the effort to find a part
> for Anya in S7, because the show can only benefit having someone around
> who can so hilariously shift a comic relief scene back into the
> episode's main mood and plot.
Structurally, she's the replacement for Cordelia, the character whose
job it is to point out how stupid the other characters are. They tried
that with Spike in S4, but it didn't really work. Anyway, now that
Anya's a demon again, she's really got her snark on. Early S7 has some
of my favorite Anya scenes. Emma really brought the underlying
bitterness. Or even right-on-the-surface bitterness. While still
being funny.
> AOQ rating: Excellent
Higher than I'd rate it, but your review laid out your reasons well
enough to make your rating believable.
-- Mike Zeares
Mike Zeares
drifter wrote:
> . . . Was that Rowan's head I just heard exploding?
The image of a bottomless Buffy, a life-size Posable Dawn (custom
RealDoll?), and a full nekkid body cast of Aly.....
***BOOM***
-- MZ
Ken from Chicago
<lili...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1158040909.0...@e63g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
The important thing is that you take a lickin' and keep on a'tickin'!
-- Ken from Chicago
Espen Schjønberg
> (Harmony) Watcher wrote:
>
>><lili...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:1158039901.3...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>>>AOQ rating: Excellent
>>>OK, this just plain out tells me you have no taste ;-)
>>>
>>>I mean, Excellent? I'd give it decent, but no more than that. fifth
>>>worst ep of the season as far as I'm concerned.
>>>
>>
>>Wait a second. I think you're confusing "taste" with "sense of humor", :)
>>
>>--
>>==Harmony Watcher==
>
>
> Well that too*g*
I knew AOQ would rate it high, given I don't like it.
I don't like it because I find it mean in the wrong way, just the wrong
way I have seen many people here enjoy.
Unfortuneately.
It is disgusting, plain mean and so not funny.
--
Espen
Stephen Tempest
>and is anya excited or repulsed that
>it might involve a little girl on girl action?
Anya mainly struck me as desperate for affection and human contact.
(And, yes, a little bi-curious).
Stephen
Stephen Tempest
>Our monster who happens to also skin its victims, Gnarl, is kept
>off-screen for some time, leading the viewer to hope that it'll be
>something cool, or even a familiar foe.
It did seem a little... convenient to me that the monster Willow faces
just happens to be immune to magic. However, I realise they didn't
really have much choice in the matter if they wanted to maintain the
suspense.
(Unless it can be argued that, as well as making her intangible to her
friends, Willow's guilty subconscious also summoned the one type of
demon that could defeat her.)
>That shot of Buffy standing in the hallway in just the tank-top makes
>her looks so muscular and badass. I think it made it to the opening
>credits, actually.
It actually makes a point in the shooting script that this scene with
Buffy and Willow in bed (um, I mean *on* the bed. ON the bed...) is
"the first time anyone has touched Willow all episode."
>Like "After Life" last year, I remember this one as being quiet
>and, like I said, moody (other than Comically Posable Dawn), but
>there's really plenty of humor on the side -
You could practically quote the entire episode in the "great lines"
stakes. A couple that haven't been mentioned yet that I really like
are
"She didn't finish? She didn't finish being *not* *evil*?
"Instead everyone just keeps secrets, and suffers alone, and then
we're s'posed to be all sympathetic when they start ripping the skins
off people or dragging their sisters into the basement! ... I may have
some stuff to work through."
"And you're back 'cause you're all better or you're back to bring
about a fiery apocalypse of death? "
"Uh, neither."
>AOQ rating: Excellent
Definitely.
Stephen
Rowan Hawthorn
Evidently so, since I'd swear you can clearly see Aly's abs in a few of
the sc... what? No, my "pause" and "Frame advance" buttons *don't* work
any longer, why do you ask...?
Rowan Hawthorn
Truly, I'd be in good company (mixed, at that...)
One Bit Shy
news:1158037790.7...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 3: "Same Time, Same Place"
> Perhaps the two highlights of the early portion come with Willow dozing
> on the same couch the others are sitting on - it's just a strong
> visual - and when Spike gets his visit from everyone simultaneously.
> Since the show wisely ensures that we can only see things from one
> non-demon POV at a time, this means there's some repetition involved,
> but it's worth finding out which seemingly random comments are
> actually a response to something else and which are just the crazy guy
> being crazy and seeing people who aren't there as usual. Feel free
> to wax pretentious about this being a metaphor for people talking past
> each other, or whatever. I'd be curious to find out how this one was
> done; I didn't double-check to try to figure out whether they filmed
> Marsters twice or used the power of film to paste one of the
> conversations together. They're certainly taking their time with
> William's story, but it'll hold for another week. Xander: "boy,
> he's extra useful today." And let us all chuckle.
I remember that somewhere early on - maybe it was Spike pointing out that
Willow had skinned a victim - I really was a little worried that maybe,
somehow Willow was responsible. Like maybe her fears had generated the
demon doing this.
The Spike scene is neat. I really wasn't expecting it to shift perspectives
like that and have Buffy and Xander there, so it was a lot of fun rethinking
what he had to say on second go around.
I also noticed Spike's remark about the slayer and her boy - making it two
episodes in a row now that somebody has linked Buffy and Xander. Add how
suburban mom and dad like they were in the season opener and this got me
wondering if something was being set up.
> Other exchanges, on the most mostly-fun side, let Anya and Willow work
> together and grudgingly open up to each other a little because, well,
> that's what the situation calls for. There're a few explicit
> statements about the former not being so happy nowadays, as strongly
> suggested in recent weeks. The S6 threads included a lot of dwelling
> on Anya being unable to rise above her nature at times, but there are
> certainly those moments when she does. Quotables and other fun stuff
> here include "wait, Spike's what in the whatment?" "Insane.
> Base," and Anya pointing out herself on the demon map. Based on her
> final reaction to the return of the demon-locator spell, maybe it's a
> Lesbian Spell by nature.
I loved the Willow/Anya scenes. How, even trying to be nice, they can't
help but be a little rude to each other periodically.
I think the first thing to observe is simple confirmation that nope, Willow
doesn't think of Anya as a close friend. (Anya's visible.)
And speaking of unlikely pairings, with Anya's remarks about it getting
sexy, I found myself thinking, no, they couldn't possibly be thinking of
putting Anya and Willow together, could they? Boy, would that be a
destructive pairing. Though, I suppose, exciting too.
> Is that the "Demons, Demons, Demons" website introduced in "The
> Ring?" Little between-show nods make me happy. Except not if they
> come from the later seasons of ATS that I haven't seen yet, but
> there'll be time to appreciate those later.
Dawn was so pleased (and correct) about finding the demon.
> Our monster who happens to also skin its victims, Gnarl, is kept
> off-screen for some time, leading the viewer to hope that it'll be
> something cool, or even a familiar foe. Instead, the show goes the
> opposite direction. The moment that big absurd cartoony face pops up
> onto the screen has the right effect - menace through goofy
> sing-song. That's creepier than the standard growling evil when it
> comes to very slowly peeling off delicious strips of Willow to nibble
> on, in between lapping up blood. That part is more suggestion than
> actual graphic content, but still manages to be one of the more
> cringe-inducing bits of physical violence of the series. I'm sure
> some people will be upset at how easily Willow is caught off guard when
> direct magic attacks fail her, but she's alone and confused, and the
> monster paralyzes. I'm okay there.
Gnarl eating strips of Willow definitely made me cringe. It's really gross,
but it sure does the trick of making the situation genuinely scary.... And
better appreciate the ending between her and Buffy. That whole scene I was
thinking of how sore Willow's belly must have been.
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Sucks one right in.
>
> AOQ rating: Excellent
I don't really have much to say about the episode - seems pretty straight
forward to me. You liked it more than me, but I liked it well enough and
would rate it as Good. (This season starts out pretty strong.) The device
of overlaying the scenes from different perspectives isn't IMO as clever as
other devices they use, but it gets high marks for execution and seems an
appropriate way to get across the idea of Willow's fear of showing herself
to her friends.
Early on I liked Buffy's line, "We can only be here for her so much if she
won't be, you know, here." A truism in itself. But sort of wrong because
Willow is literally there on the couch as it's uttered. (Albeit invisible.)
Yet still exactly right since it's Willow's fears keeping her out of sight.
Yet, oddly, still kind of wrong since Buffy and company manage to save
Willow anyway. Which makes for a nice little summing of the story, largely
justifying the device by itself.
Having Gnarl be a flaying demon that tries to strip off Willow's skin
obviously points back to the flaying of Warren. Presumably part of a
natural punishment for Willow since institutional punishment isn't in the
cards. But the one thing about the episode that kind of makes me wonder is
how Gnarl got there. If we go with the usual Sunnydale explanation of Gnarl
being the manifestation of Willow's fears... then that suggests that the
flayed body at the construction site really is partly Willow's
responsibility.
I don't know if that's intentional or not - and don't think it's necessarily
bad anyway. But if that's really part of the story, then that puts a
considerably darker spin on the issue of Willow dealing with her magical
essence that she can never get rid of. And that she's back early, before
she completed whatever training she was getting at the coven.
OBS
Michael Ikeda
news:1158053281....@e63g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
>> review threads.
>>
>>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Seven, Episode 3: "Same Time, Same Place"
>> (or "I guess *this* demon doesn't have high cholesterol")
>> Writer: Jane Espenson
>> Director: James A. Contner
>
>
>
> I think you were worried in BY if the whole S/B thing was
> 'starting up again', and here's the similar timeline for Angel
> if you want to compare: Beauty and the Beasts - Buffy finds out
> Angel's back, ties him up etc. Three episodes later
> (Revelations) they're kissing. Next ep. she breaks up with him.
> Then they sort of drift back together what with apocalypses etc,
> before *he* breaks up with her in The Prom. It would seem Buffy
> is using more of a 'Tough Love' approach with Spike.
>
So does that mean she's going to be feeding him applesauce or loading
up on magic and attacking the nearest Hellgod? :)
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Rincewind
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 3: "Same Time, Same Place"
> (or "I guess *this* demon doesn't have high cholesterol")
> Writer: Jane Espenson
> Director: James A. Contner
>
> Perhaps the two highlights of the early portion come with Willow dozing
> on the same couch the others are sitting on - it's just a strong
> visual - and when Spike gets his visit from everyone simultaneously.
> Since the show wisely ensures that we can only see things from one
> non-demon POV at a time, this means there's some repetition involved,
> but it's worth finding out which seemingly random comments are
> actually a response to something else and which are just the crazy guy
> being crazy and seeing people who aren't there as usual. Feel free
> to wax pretentious about this being a metaphor for people talking past
> each other, or whatever. I'd be curious to find out how this one was
> done; I didn't double-check to try to figure out whether they filmed
> Marsters twice or used the power of film to paste one of the
> conversations together.
They filmed him twice: if you re-watch it you can see there are slight
differences in Marsters' delivery.
> Other exchanges, on the most mostly-fun side, let Anya and Willow work
> together and grudgingly open up to each other a little because, well,
> that's what the situation calls for. There're a few explicit
> statements about the former not being so happy nowadays, as strongly
> suggested in recent weeks. The S6 threads included a lot of dwelling
> on Anya being unable to rise above her nature at times, but there are
> certainly those moments when she does. Quotables and other fun stuff
> here include "wait, Spike's what in the whatment?" "Insane.
> Base," and Anya pointing out herself on the demon map. Based on her
> final reaction to the return of the demon-locator spell, maybe it's a
> Lesbian Spell by nature.
I love Willow's "I'd be shocked" in response to Anya's suggestion that it
could become sexy.
> Our monster who happens to also skin its victims, Gnarl, is kept
> off-screen for some time, leading the viewer to hope that it'll be
> something cool, or even a familiar foe.
How convenient that a flaying demon happened to come to Sunnydale (or, if it
was already here, happened to start leaving the remains of his meals where
everybody can see them) exactly the same day that the flaying witch comes
back.
This ruined the episode a little bit for me because I never liked
exaggerated coincidences.
> Another thing I'm okay with is the fact that facing this crisis, and
> almost losing each other, helps give everyone the boost they need to
> get past the initial awkwardness. Crises are nice that way for this
> set of characters. I know that I'd have had my misgivings about
> seeing Willow again were I a Scoobie at the beginning of the episode,
> and would have just wanted to hug her after the events in the cave, so,
> mission accomplished.
Yes, this was probably the only way the writers could make Willow's return
work and they succeded.
> Speaking of paralysis, Dawn's a sword-bearing part of the team again,
> and of course gets herself into trouble immediately.
Strangely nobody has mentioned my favorite Dawn line yet:
DAWN: .... Just good solid detective work. And we could develop a database
of tooth impressions and demon skin samples. And I could wear high heels
more often.
BUFFY: Wow. That was so close to being empowered.
DAWN: Everybody loves a slender ankle.
> That gives the
> episode a chance to go into some extended absurdist comedy, and the
> amount of concentrated funny in those few minutes is impressive. One
> could pretty much quote the whole scene, but without Trachtenberg's
> great annoyed muffled tone and all the sight gags, it's not as funny.
> That comes to a head with the Money Moment from Anyanka the helpful
> demon: "oh, wouldn't it be tragic if you were here being kinda silly
> with your comically paralyzed sister while Willow was dying?"
> Hopefully the writers will keep putting forth the effort to find a part
> for Anya in S7, because the show can only benefit having someone around
> who can so hilariously shift a comic relief scene back into the
> episode's main mood and plot.
Anya is great this season.
> That shot of Buffy standing in the hallway in just the tank-top makes
> her looks so muscular and badass. I think it made it to the opening
> credits, actually.
Just the tank-top?
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Sucks one right in.
>
> AOQ rating: Excellent
For me it's just a high Good (I only have three Excellents this season and
they are all yet to come). The comedy bits are really good but occasionally
they try too much and it stops working for me (for example the simultaneous
Anya/Willow: "Was it you? No!"). Also the moster was creepy but it went on
too long.
Anyway is nice to see that you are finally rating Espenson as high as she
deserves.
Rincewind.
--
Lines you'll never hear on Buffy:
GILES: If the ritual starts, then every living creature in this and every
other dimension imaginable will suffer unbearable torment and
death...including Dawn.
BUFFY: Then the last thing she'll see is me protecting Spike.
Malsperanza
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 3: "Same Time, Same Place"
> Once the family walks by for the second time, it's immediately clear
> that either the production people were dropping acid on the job, or
> it's time to play around with space and time once again. [snip]
> rest of the early going is slow and moody, full of silence and music as
> the audience gets to try to figure out which particular fantasy premise
> is involved here: parallel universes? Willow caught in her own fake
> world? Except then she chats with Anya, so is it the others who're
> in fake-space? "Same Time" doles out how the gimmick works in
> pieces, giving the audience a bare minimum of information ("ah, okay,
> these scenes are happening at the same time, but only demons see both
> sides. Huh.").
Which, BTW, makes it perfectly clear that Spike is still a demon
despite having a soul, since he can see Willow.
These early episodes of S7 are all fairly strong, I think, in part
because the season takes its time bringing in the Big Bad. Meanwhile,
we get a series of Little Bads that are more or less Monsters of the
Week, a formula that BtVS has tried to avoid til now. On the one hand,
the monsters themselves are uninspired, OTOH, they leave room for the
show to put the revised relationships front and center, and to explore
them in a quiet, thoughtful way. We know these folks well now, and it
is satisfying to be able to spend time with them without too much
Impending Doom getting in the way. Each of the main characters has been
gathered in, now, plus a couple of new ones. The chessboard is set. I
didn't love this episode, though I liked it well enough. But I did very
much like the sense that this is the last (relative) calm before the
storm.
I haven't been a big fan of Willow or Anya in past seasons. AH's acting
drove me crazy for the first 4 seasons--all mugging and twitching, with
cutesy little indicators of emotion instead of actual emoting. S6
changed that, and in s7 I enjoy the more subdued, more adult Willow
2.0. Anya too has become less mere comic relief and more complex. Her
literalism, despite being played for laughs, often made me think she
had Asperger's Disorder, but now seems to suit her. Also, she's learned
to curb it somewhat.
> Perhaps the two highlights of the early portion come with Willow dozing
> on the same couch the others are sitting on - it's just a strong
> visual - and when Spike gets his visit from everyone simultaneously.
> Since the show wisely ensures that we can only see things from one
> non-demon POV at a time, this means there's some repetition involved,
> but it's worth finding out which seemingly random comments are
> actually a response to something else and which are just the crazy guy
> being crazy and seeing people who aren't there as usual. Feel free
> to wax pretentious about this being a metaphor for people talking past
> each other, or whatever.
Consider it said. Also, the idea that people are absent even when they
are present, and vice versa. It's a bit of a recurrence of the old idea
of the Invisible Shy Girl, but now it has greater weight, because these
are the Scoobies, and if their absence from Buffy's life, whether
physical or emotional, was a problem in s6, it's gonna be a serious
problem if it contines.
Also, as so often happens to characters on the show, Spike's illness
turns out not to be (entirely) an illness but also a reality of living
over the Hellmouth. In other words, one can be crazy enough to have
insane visions, hear voices, and have imaginary friends, and also have
visions, hear voices, and have imaginary friends and still be perfectly
sane. Spike is apparently both. He is but mad north-northwest at this
point.
snip
> Our monster who happens to also skin its victims, Gnarl, is kept
> off-screen for some time, leading the viewer to hope that it'll be
> something cool, or even a familiar foe. Instead, the show goes the
> opposite direction. The moment that big absurd cartoony face pops up
> onto the screen has the right effect - menace through goofy
> sing-song.
I'm awfully tired of monsters that are ugle people with skin problems.
Wasn't the whole point of Clem to satirize those dull inventions? I
like Camden Toy (every time he turns up on the show), and I like the
name Gnarl, and I like the rough justice of Willow getting peeled
(though it was pretty yecchy to watch). But Gnarl and the Worm seem
almost perfunctory to me. Yeah yeah, gotta have a Scary Thing in a cave
now, yawn. He was scariest when we only saw his scuttling shadow.
> Speaking of paralysis, Dawn's a sword-bearing part of the team again,
> and of course gets herself into trouble immediately. That gives the
> episode a chance to go into some extended absurdist comedy, and the
> amount of concentrated funny in those few minutes is impressive. One
> could pretty much quote the whole scene, but without Trachtenberg's
> great annoyed muffled tone and all the sight gags, it's not as funny.
I continue to find Dawn terminally annoying (except in that one moment
in the last episode when she threatened Spike, and actually had some
chops). Posable Dawn has the advantage of being nearly mute, but still
manages to annoy me by being a predictable kind of comedy. Where
Willow's invisibility had meaning, Dawn's paralysis was mere
sight-gagging.
RE Buffy in tank top: She is starting to dress for her role, finally,
and looks kickass with increasing, much appreciated frequency.
Overall, what I liked best in this episode was the use made of
invisibility to explore problems among the various friends, as well as
problems of perception that reflect not only on the characters but also
on the viewer--on *our* relationship with the characters. And it warns
us not to trust everything we see, nor to mistrust everything we don't
see, going forward.
~Mal
Clairel
(Harmony) Watcher wrote:
> <lili...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1158039901.3...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > >
> > > AOQ rating: Excellent
> > >
> > > 1) "Lessons" - Good
> > > 2) "Beneath You" - Decent
> >
> > OK, this just plain out tells me you have no taste ;-)
> >
> > I mean, Excellent? I'd give it decent, but no more than that. fifth
> > worst ep of the season as far as I'm concerned.
--I don't hate it or anything, but I don't think STSP is all that great
either. It has its moments, but compared to the excellent "Beneath
You," STSP just isn't anything special. I don't understand what AOQ is
so excited about, actually.
When a review fails to convey why it rates something as "excellent,"
then there's a real problem. In the immortal words of George Kennedy,
"What we have here is a failure to communicate."
Clairel
John Briggs
> In article <0rjcg21fig20p0nfe...@4ax.com>,
> William George Ferguson <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>
>> I always suspected that Willow was actually the webmistress for the
>> site.
>
> You know, until the moment I read this, it had never occurred to me
> that the term 'webmistress' could seem smutty.
Like the time a few years back, when, with the standard of female
chess-playing improving rapidly, there was a need to decide on a formal
female equivalent of "International Master". The world governing body of
chess was pondering the merits of "maitresse internationale", until they
noticed the French female delegate laughing uncontrollably...
--
John Briggs
drifter
I thought Strother Martin said that. Did George also say it?
Clairel
--I'm going by memory; I haven't checked. I remember it as George
Kennedy, but I may be wrong.
Clairel
drifter
It's been something like 30 or more years since I saw it, but ISTR
Strother saying it first, then Luke starting to say it later, but not
finishing because Something Bad happens. I don't recall George saying
it at all, but like you, I may be wrong. Can we get somebody right to
chime in?
Michael Ikeda
news:1158100625.3...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
>
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
>> review threads.
>>
>>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Seven, Episode 3: "Same Time, Same Place"
>
>> rest of the early going is slow and moody, full of silence and
>> music as the audience gets to try to figure out which
>> particular fantasy premise is involved here: parallel
>> universes? Willow caught in her own fake world? Except then
>> she chats with Anya, so is it the others who're in fake-space?
>> "Same Time" doles out how the gimmick works in pieces, giving
>> the audience a bare minimum of information ("ah, okay, these
>> scenes are happening at the same time, but only demons see both
>> sides. Huh.").
>
> Which, BTW, makes it perfectly clear that Spike is still a demon
> despite having a soul, since he can see Willow.
>
As pointed out by others, it seems more likely that everyone except
Willow, Buffy, Dawn, and Xander can see both sides.
Scott Lurndal
It was the Sheriff, IIRC.
scott
Clairel
--Yeah, but who played the Sheriff? George Kennedy or Strother Martin?
Clairel
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Clairel" <reld...@usa.net> wrote:
what we have here is a failure to communicate in conversational french
meow arf meow - they are performing horrible experiments in space
major grubert is watching you - beware the bakalite
there can only be one or two - the airtight garage has you neo
George W Harris
:
It's obvious. Liliaeth doesn't like it because it
has too much Willow, and you don't like it because it
doesn't have enough Blondie Bear.
:
:Clairel
--
/bud...@nirvana.net/h:k
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
Jeff Jacoby
It was Strother Martin, as Captain of the road gang,
and the acutal quote is:
"What we got here is... failure to communicate."
Jeff
George W Harris
:When a review fails to convey why it rates something as "excellent,"
:then there's a real problem. In the immortal words of George Kennedy,
:"What we have here is a failure to communicate."
Strother Martin, not George Kennedy.
:
:Clairel
--
"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar." -Wash, 'Serenity'
George W Harris
<ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
:>That shot of Buffy standing in the hallway in just the tank-top makes
:>her looks so muscular and badass. I think it made it to the opening
:>credits, actually.
:
:It actually makes a point in the shooting script that this scene with
:Buffy and Willow in bed (um, I mean *on* the bed. ON the bed...) is
:"the first time anyone has touched Willow all episode."
Well, except for the Gnarl demon.
--
Firefly Fan Since September 20th, 2002 - Browncoat Since Birth
George W Harris
<rincewi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
:This ruined the episode a little bit for me because I never liked
:exaggerated coincidences.
There are two things you shouldn't expect
on Buffy: coincidences and Leprechauns. Others
have pointed out how it might *not* be a
coincidence. I'll point out that it's almost certainly
not a Leprechaun.
--
"If you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce, they taste more like
prunes than rhubarb does" -Groucho Marx
Mel
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> That shot of Buffy standing in the hallway in just the tank-top makes
> her looks so muscular and badass. I think it made it to the opening
> credits, actually.
And with the eyeliner she looks a bit like Wishverse Buffy.
Mel
Don Sample
"Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > threads.
> >
> >
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Seven, Episode 3: "Same Time, Same Place"
>
>
> > Once the family walks by for the second time, it's immediately clear
> > that either the production people were dropping acid on the job, or
> > it's time to play around with space and time once again. [snip]
>
> > rest of the early going is slow and moody, full of silence and music as
> > the audience gets to try to figure out which particular fantasy premise
> > is involved here: parallel universes? Willow caught in her own fake
> > world? Except then she chats with Anya, so is it the others who're
> > in fake-space? "Same Time" doles out how the gimmick works in
> > pieces, giving the audience a bare minimum of information ("ah, okay,
> > these scenes are happening at the same time, but only demons see both
> > sides. Huh.").
>
> Which, BTW, makes it perfectly clear that Spike is still a demon
> despite having a soul, since he can see Willow.
Seeing Willow had nothing to do with being a demon. Anyone who wasn't
Buffy, Xander or Dawn could see her.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Malsperanza
Ah, true. Too bad.
~Mal
Rincewind
> On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 00:26:53 +0200, "Rincewind"
> <rincewi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> :This ruined the episode a little bit for me because I never liked
> :exaggerated coincidences.
>
> There are two things you shouldn't expect
> on Buffy: coincidences and Leprechauns.
Only as far as Giles knows...
> Others
> have pointed out how it might *not* be a
> coincidence. I'll point out that it's almost certainly
> not a Leprechaun.
The problem is: if Gnarl's appearance is caused by some external entity (the
Powers That Be?) as an indirect form of punishment for Willow, there is no
evidence of it and I can only think it's interesting fanwank. If, as OBS
suggests, it's caused by Willow herself, then I really don't like a
redemption arc that starts by causing the casual painful death of a random
guy: if this is the case maybe Willow should go back to England and stay
there another 10 to 20 years...
Coincidence is not a good thing but I like it better then the alternatives.
Rncewind.
--
What I have learned from Buffy:
Being a construction worker makes you fat. Ohg ng yrnfg lbhe unaqvpensg vf
ubggre guna jngpuvat Jvyybj naq Xraarql znxr bhg!
One Bit Shy
news:TmHNg.32$W3...@newsfe03.lga...
It's said first by Strother Martin, and the words are, "What we've got here
is failure to communicate." That's the especially famous rendition. Later
Paul Newman repeats it, but adds an "a". "What we've got here is a failure
to communicate."
Cool Hand Luke is on my top 10 favorite movie list, and definitely the best
prison flick. I've always gotten a kick out of him being sent up river for
drunkenly removing the heads of parking meters.
OBS
Malsperanza
Jesse Jackson used it almost as famously during a confrontation with
the cops in Chicago a year or two later.
> Cool Hand Luke is on my top 10 favorite movie list, and definitely the best
> prison flick. I've always gotten a kick out of him being sent up river for
> drunkenly removing the heads of parking meters.
>
> OBS
Yeah, that happened to me once, in New Orleans. Well, one parking
meter... ah, good times, good times...
~Mal
One Bit Shy
news:hYINg.19304$6Z1....@tornado.fastwebnet.it...
> "George W Harris" <gha...@mundsprung.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 00:26:53 +0200, "Rincewind"
>> <rincewi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> :This ruined the episode a little bit for me because I never liked
>> :exaggerated coincidences.
>>
>> There are two things you shouldn't expect
>> on Buffy: coincidences and Leprechauns.
>
> Only as far as Giles knows...
>
>> Others
>> have pointed out how it might *not* be a
>> coincidence. I'll point out that it's almost certainly
>> not a Leprechaun.
>
> The problem is: if Gnarl's appearance is caused by some external entity
> (the Powers That Be?) as an indirect form of punishment for Willow, there
> is no evidence of it and I can only think it's interesting fanwank. If, as
> OBS suggests, it's caused by Willow herself, then I really don't like a
> redemption arc that starts by causing the casual painful death of a random
> guy: if this is the case maybe Willow should go back to England and stay
> there another 10 to 20 years...
>
> Coincidence is not a good thing but I like it better then the
> alternatives.
One way to soften the idea a little is to realize that however he got there,
Gnarl was a known pre-existing demon. So if Willow really did summon him,
then presumably she took him from some unknown place where he was flaying
and eating his victims to Sunnydale where he continued flaying and eating
his victims. In other words, there may be no difference in the level of
mayhem... Except that in Sunnydale he ran into The Slayer.
However, you're still right that it's not such a promising way to start a
redemption arc. Perhaps that's why it's at the start? I mean, it would be
a whole lot worse if it was at the end. (Which is not to say that the
actual end is necessarily an improvement.)
OBS
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Posable Dawn is never not funny.
I'm grinning just seeing everyone recite their favorite parts of the
scene. It's that good.
> > That comes to a head with the Money Moment from Anyanka the helpful
> > demon: "oh, wouldn't it be tragic if you were here being kinda silly
> > with your comically paralyzed sister while Willow was dying?"
> > Hopefully the writers will keep putting forth the effort to find a part
> > for Anya in S7, because the show can only benefit having someone around
> > who can so hilariously shift a comic relief scene back into the
> > episode's main mood and plot.
>
> Structurally, she's the replacement for Cordelia, the character whose
> job it is to point out how stupid the other characters are. They tried
> that with Spike in S4, but it didn't really work.
Now, see, I never thought Cordelia was much good for that. Everyone
talks about that, but her main contribution that I remember was to be
vapid and to derail conversations asking about stupid things like Buffy
getting rid of "that thing." Whereas when Anya says something
amusingly rude, there's usualy something true or worthwhile in it.
(I'm referring just to BTVS with the anti-Cordy sentiment here. She
got about ten times more interesting the moment she left for L.A.)
As for Spike, I thought he was much better in that role than Cordelia
was. The problem from a writing standpoint is I think that they
couldn't force him to hang around with the Scoobies forever, since he
coudln't realistically befriend them or vice versa. He had to move out
of Xander's place sooner or later, and then his Slayer obsession meant
that his main interactions would be with Buffy, apart from the others.
> Higher than I'd rate it, but your review laid out your reasons well
> enough to make your rating believable.
Good man. Now, mind explaining that to Clairel? ;-)
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> I knew AOQ would rate it high, given I don't like it.
Yeah, that does seem to be the trend, huh? I'm sorry you don't enjoy
the later seasons as much as I do.
> I don't like it because I find it mean in the wrong way, just the wrong
> way I have seen many people here enjoy.
Mean to the characters or to the viewers?
-AOQ
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> talks about that, but her main contribution that I remember was to be
> vapid and to derail conversations asking about stupid things like Buffy
people like to say cordelia was blunt and talked straight
but actually she was rude and suffered frequent vaporlock
say something nasty to cordelia and she would be hurt
but that wouldnt stop her from being nasty in her turn
anya is usually not rude
shes bright but usually just clueless about social customs
that puts her in a good position to act as social commentator
> coudln't realistically befriend them or vice versa. He had to move out
> of Xander's place sooner or later, and then his Slayer obsession meant
> that his main interactions would be with Buffy, apart from the others.
everybody had to get out of the basement
(i wonder if andrew and jonath-n are in a basement in mehico)
at least now there wont be any more need for embarassed glances between them
Paul Hyett
>
>I'd like to give a shout out to MT for the job she did as poseable
>Dawn. Even AH couldn't help but move her lips when she talked
>after being paralyzed, but MT was close to perfect in all her
>scenes. And a poseable Dawn would make such a fun, thoughtful
>gift, wouldn't it?
If the recipient likes jail-bait, of course... :)
--
Paul 'Charts Fan' Hyett
Espen Schjønberg
> Espen Schjønberg wrote:
>
>
>>I knew AOQ would rate it high, given I don't like it.
>
>
> Yeah, that does seem to be the trend, huh? I'm sorry you don't enjoy
> the later seasons as much as I do.
It was S6 I didn't enjoy. After three episodes - of which the first I
rate on the border of excellent,and the second I didn't comment- - it
would be to early to say "later seasons", don't you think?
>>I don't like it because I find it mean in the wrong way, just the wrong
>>way I have seen many people here enjoy.
>
>
> Mean to the characters or to the viewers?
Mean to the characters? Dawn is afraid of dying, and they treat her like
they find it as great fun. She is afraid of being strangled by her own
barf, and they think it is great fun? Yeah, I always wanted Dawn to die,
but I didn't like the posable Dawn, no.
Willow? So, the morale of the show is she "deserves" to be skinned
alive. Very amusing? Not. Hasn't she talked about understanding it was a
bad thing to skin Warren alive? Don't talk about what it takes to
deserve forgiveness. In season two, the creators of the show knew the
answer to that: We don't give forgiveness to people because they deserve
it, but because they need it. And that was even in a MN episode.
--
Espen
Manfred Noland
Arbitrar Of Quality
Espen Schjønberg wrote:
> On 13.09.2006 05:01, Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> I'm sorry you don't enjoy
> > the later seasons as much as I do.
>
> It was S6 I didn't enjoy. After three episodes - of which the first I
> rate on the border of excellent,and the second I didn't comment- - it
> would be to early to say "later seasons", don't you think?
True. I thought you hated S7 for some reason, especially after the
comments about "Lessons" making you hopeful "at the time."
> Mean to the characters? Dawn is afraid of dying, and they treat her like
> they find it as great fun. She is afraid of being strangled by her own
> barf, and they think it is great fun? Yeah, I always wanted Dawn to die,
> but I didn't like the posable Dawn, no.
"You're going to think about that, mister, and you're going to laugh."
- Buffy, "Go Fish"
Not much to say about that except that the show has always had a sense
of absurdity that way. We can be working hard to save someone, and
those with nothing to do at the moment are able to appreciate the humor
of the situation.
> Willow? So, the morale of the show is she "deserves" to be skinned
> alive. Very amusing? Not. Hasn't she talked about understanding it was a
> bad thing to skin Warren alive? Don't talk about what it takes to
> deserve forgiveness. In season two, the creators of the show knew the
> answer to that: We don't give forgiveness to people because they deserve
> it, but because they need it. And that was even in a MN episode.
Willow's part of the story isn't played for laughs at all. Seeing her
get skinned certainly isn't meant to be funny. As fo "deserving"
forgiveness, there're still people arguing that she gets off too easy
in any case. The Buffyverse as a whole may have a sense of karma, but
our heroes would have forgiven her with or without Gnarl. And they
won't ever be able to trust her the way they used to no matter how
willing they are to forgive, and it's hard to sensibly blame them for
that.
-AOQ
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Mike Zeares wrote:
.
>
> > Higher than I'd rate it, but your review laid out your reasons well
> > enough to make your rating believable.
>
> Good man. Now, mind explaining that to Clairel? ;-)
-- MZ
One Bit Shy
news:ee8t3s$v9$1...@readme.uio.no...
> On 13.09.2006 05:01, Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> Espen Schjønberg wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I knew AOQ would rate it high, given I don't like it.
>>
>>
>> Yeah, that does seem to be the trend, huh? I'm sorry you don't enjoy
>> the later seasons as much as I do.
>
> It was S6 I didn't enjoy. After three episodes - of which the first I rate
> on the border of excellent,and the second I didn't comment- - it would be
> to early to say "later seasons", don't you think?
>
>>>I don't like it because I find it mean in the wrong way, just the wrong
>>>way I have seen many people here enjoy.
>>
>>
>> Mean to the characters or to the viewers?
>
> Mean to the characters? Dawn is afraid of dying, and they treat her like
> they find it as great fun. She is afraid of being strangled by her own
> barf, and they think it is great fun? Yeah, I always wanted Dawn to die,
> but I didn't like the posable Dawn, no.
For some reason the thought of Giles constantly getting knocked out comes to
mind. Repeated concussions are not inherently funny. Yet, there was much
humor found... Humor's funny that way.
Internal to the story we have a crew of folks whose lives revolve around
risking their lives - and sometimes losing them. It's a bloody, awful,
sometimes mind numbing way to live. They find their humor where it's
offered. Thank heavens they do, or they'd be forever stuck as nothing but
depressed sourpusses. People complain about too much of that as it is.
Buffy's "inappropriate" sense of humor makes her a better slayer. Do you
want to see her impression of Gandhi?
> Willow? So, the morale of the show is she "deserves" to be skinned alive.
> Very amusing? Not. Hasn't she talked about understanding it was a bad
> thing to skin Warren alive? Don't talk about what it takes to deserve
> forgiveness. In season two, the creators of the show knew the answer to
> that: We don't give forgiveness to people because they deserve it, but
> because they need it. And that was even in a MN episode.
The flaying of Willow is not offered as humor.
I don't think BtVS actually offers much in the way of morals - not of that
sort anyway. Consequences aren't so much a matter of deserving or not
deserving as they are inevitabilities. What moral there is to that is more
along the lines of you have to endure to live.
What Willow deserves is not so easy to discern. A lot of effort has been
expended to explain how Willow's reckless arrogance and assorted other less
than perfect attributes led her to her fall and her current state. All
quite true. One might easily argue that back in Something Blue she should
have taken on a heaping dose of humility and changed her ways far more
substantively than baking cookies as atonement. From that perspective, she
ultimately got what she deserved and such a thing as Gnarl is only fitting
punishment.
But the thing is, would such an abashed Willow ever have restored Tara's
mind in The Gift or later raised Buffy? Willow's weaknesses were also her
strengths. The bold, inquisitive mind of a brilliant woman seeking her own
greatness. You can't really separate the Willow who could flay Warren from
the one who floated above the dance floor in the pure joy of love, or the
Willow who killed Bambi from the one who didn't want to hurt the horsies.
The essence of Willow's current story is that she can't return. She can't
give back the things she's become. The magic she sought is part of her
now - just as are the desires and impulses that brought her here. Her
flaying this episode is not so much what she deserves as a brutal reminder
of what she is. Her challenge is to find a way to move forward with all of
that rather than futilely run away from it as she attempted last season.
Living has a price. Living great has a greater price. And it's damned hard
to figure out what, if anything, or everything, in that is deserved.
Another reason to forgive. So as to live - to endure. The people doing the
forgiving have much to be forgiven for themselves. And they all - we all -
are going to pay the same price in the end.
OBS
Dwayne Johnson
it looked great in the stills when they were approvng the concept
though.**************************************************************************************
lame ? an insane demon who eats flesh and that magic will not work on.
P.S. i sort of seen it as the charles manson of demons.
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> Willow's part of the story isn't played for laughs at all. Seeing her
> get skinned certainly isn't meant to be funny. As fo "deserving"
> forgiveness, there're still people arguing that she gets off too easy
> in any case. The Buffyverse as a whole may have a sense of karma, but
> our heroes would have forgiven her with or without Gnarl. And they
> won't ever be able to trust her the way they used to no matter how
> willing they are to forgive, and it's hard to sensibly blame them for
> that.
Forgiving the "unforgivable" is a common theme in BtVS.
To forgive is an act of compassion, Buffy. It's not done
because people deserve it. It's done because they need it.
I'd also add that giving forgiveness is more important than receiving it.
burt...@hotmail.com
> In article <1158152014.8...@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Willow's part of the story isn't played for laughs at all. Seeing her
> > get skinned certainly isn't meant to be funny. As fo "deserving"
> > forgiveness, there're still people arguing that she gets off too easy
> > in any case. The Buffyverse as a whole may have a sense of karma, but
> > our heroes would have forgiven her with or without Gnarl. And they
> > won't ever be able to trust her the way they used to no matter how
> > willing they are to forgive, and it's hard to sensibly blame them for
> > that.
>
> Forgiving the "unforgivable" is a common theme in BtVS.
>
> To forgive is an act of compassion, Buffy. It's not done
> because people deserve it. It's done because they need it.
>
> I'd also add that giving forgiveness is more important than receiving it.
I'd appreciate the forgiving nature of Buffy and her friends a lot more
if they weren't massively inconsistent in how they applied it.
Spike directly tried to brutally murder Willow and indirectly tried to
get Buffy and her friends killed on multiple occasions.
Willow murdered Warren and tried to wipe out all life on the planet.
Xander summoned a demon that killed at least two citizens of Sunnydale.
Why do they all get forgiven for their crimes while J. Random Vampire
does not?
Apteryx
news:29107-45...@storefull-3312.bay.webtv.net...
I agree the concept of Gnarl is pretty good. But he is at his scariest when
flitting about before you see him properly. Once you do, he strikes me as
lame in appearance. I think it was Elisi who said Gnarl was based on Gollum,
which seems likely. Its probably not such a good idea to attempt to imitate
a multi million dollar special effect creation with a man in a suit (while
the original is still fresh in people's memory) unless you are aiming for
parody.
--
Apteryx
Malsperanza
One Bit Shy wrote:
> For some reason the thought of Giles constantly getting knocked out comes to
> mind. Repeated concussions are not inherently funny. Yet, there was much
> humor found... Humor's funny that way.
>
> Internal to the story we have a crew of folks whose lives revolve around
> risking their lives - and sometimes losing them. It's a bloody, awful,
> sometimes mind numbing way to live. They find their humor where it's
> offered. Thank heavens they do, or they'd be forever stuck as nothing but
> depressed sourpusses. People complain about too much of that as it is.
> Buffy's "inappropriate" sense of humor makes her a better slayer. Do you
> want to see her impression of Gandhi?
It's interesting that some characters get the humor, and others don't.
Giles never quite does, frex. Dawn's sense of humor seems rather
limited by her own self-absorption and inability (for the most part) to
accept being laughed at. I sometimes think one can track which
characters are dearest to Whedon's heart by how much humor he lets them
express, and how wacky he let's them be with it. I don't just mean
Xander, say, behaving in ways that make us laugh; I mean Xander
laughing at something dumb he's done--or Buffy has said, or even at
something horrible that has happened. A sense of humor is one of
Xander's most humanizing characteristics; ditto Buffy, Willow,
occasionally Spike. I'm enjoying Robin Wood's sense of humor just now.
Underlying that is the whole question of what is "inappropriate" in a
world where pretty much everything the hero(s) do is inappropriate.
Slaying isn't normal civilized behavior. Casting spells isn't either,
nor is consorting with demons.
> What Willow deserves is not so easy to discern. A lot of effort has been
> expended to explain how Willow's reckless arrogance and assorted other less
> than perfect attributes led her to her fall and her current state. All
> quite true. One might easily argue that back in Something Blue she should
> have taken on a heaping dose of humility and changed her ways far more
> substantively than baking cookies as atonement. From that perspective, she
> ultimately got what she deserved and such a thing as Gnarl is only fitting
> punishment.
/Insert Famous Gandalf Quote About Pity Here/
> But the thing is, would such an abashed Willow ever have restored Tara's
> mind in The Gift or later raised Buffy? Willow's weaknesses were also her
> strengths.
The same could be said of Buffy and of other characters -- including
some of the most morally problematic ones. It's what keeps them from
being 2-dimensional paper cutouts, no? Buffy's secretiveness is also
the thing that allows her to operate as a one-person army; her
irreverance is also her independence of mind; on the flip side, her
single-minded determination is also her narrowness of vision, lack of
empathy, and impatience with her friends. These dualities make stong
heroes, but not necessarily happy people.
> The bold, inquisitive mind of a brilliant woman seeking her own
> greatness. You can't really separate the Willow who could flay Warren from
> the one who floated above the dance floor in the pure joy of love, or the
> Willow who killed Bambi from the one who didn't want to hurt the horsies.
It occurs to me, reading this very nice summary, that Buffy is quite a
contrast to Willow. She's curiously lacking in inquisitiveness, even
back in s1. She's not brilliant or ambitious, she's not interested in
being The Best, even though in fact she *is* the best. It's irrelevant
to her. She doesn't have great resources for expressing either joy or
rage--she tends to express both by punching someone. She figures out
how to overcome or outmanoeuvre her adversaries by being dogged and
utterly focused and knowledgeable, whereas Willow is always looking for
the dazzling innovation, the leap of intuition, the marvelous shortcut.
And even now, in s7, they remain essentially what they have always
been, despite all the changes they've been through.
On another list, I've been watching an interesting discussion among
screenwriters of characters that remain constant throughout a story,
without an arc of growth. In some ways, they are the most interesting
ones.
~Mal
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> threads.
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Seven, Episode 3: "Same Time, Same Place"
> Writer: Jane Espenson
> Director: James A. Contner
.
> Perhaps the two highlights of the early portion come with Willow dozing
> on the same couch the others are sitting on - it's just a strong
> visual - and when Spike gets his visit from everyone simultaneously.
> Since the show wisely ensures that we can only see things from one
> non-demon POV at a time, this means there's some repetition involved,
> but it's worth finding out which seemingly random comments are
> actually a response to something else and which are just the crazy guy
> being crazy and seeing people who aren't there as usual.
Here we get the first clear depiction of how some of Spike's apparent
non-sequiturs are actually responses to things the audience can't see or
hear. Are they all that way? Are *any* of his crazy mutterings simply
insane?
I really like Gnarl. (I mean, in a love-to-hate kind of way. Anything
that does that to my Willow definitely earns my hate.) But I agree with
those who said that he's most effective when he's barely glimpsed in the
shadows.
> Another thing I'm okay with is the fact that facing this crisis, and
> almost losing each other, helps give everyone the boost they need to
> get past the initial awkwardness. Crises are nice that way for this
> set of characters. I know that I'd have had my misgivings about
> seeing Willow again were I a Scoobie at the beginning of the episode,
> and would have just wanted to hug her after the events in the cave, so,
> mission accomplished.
Just like in everyone's favorite episode, Dead Man's Party! ... But it's
not an instantaneous transition. Buffy and Xander are glad but still a
little reserved and awkward when they can finally see Willow again. Even
the final scene starts off with Buffy and Willow still hesitant, still
slowly feeling each other out before finally coming together at the end.
(Platonically.) It's not a sunny, perky reunion like at the end of DMP,
but quieter, more mature, and more meaningful for it.
I have to admit, I'm one of the ones who didn't think posable Dawn was
that funny on first viewing. The idea didn't offend me, I just thought it
was a little too silly and distracting. Anyway, I enjoy it well enough
nowadays.
Some random notes:
-Grave ended with the starting to come back together -- at least, Xander
was comforting Willow, Buffy was trying to rebuild her relationship with
Dawn, and Anya was bonding with Giles. But Willow and Anya (not to
mention Giles) are cut off from their friends again for most of STSP. I
don't think this is an inconsistency; rather, it's a realistic look at how
difficult it would be for our heroes to repair their ties with each other
after what happened in season 6.
-Willow can do magic unconsciously/subconsciously. Stay on her good side!
-Willow is still the one finding the bodies.
-There were a few too many dumb-Xander jokes in rapid succession. Jane,
Jane, Jane....
-Apparently Anya can bring stuff with her when she teleports, since she
brought that can of nuts back from Brazil.
> AOQ rating: Excellent
I wouldn't go that far, but it's a solid Good. On first viewing I liked
Lessons better than BY or STSP, maybe because I was just so happy to have
new episodes airing again; but now I'd rank both BY and STSP well above
Lessons.
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
One Bit Shy
news:1158189530.6...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> One Bit Shy wrote:
> I don't just mean
> Xander, say, behaving in ways that make us laugh; I mean Xander
> laughing at something dumb he's done--or Buffy has said, or even at
> something horrible that has happened. A sense of humor is one of
> Xander's most humanizing characteristics; ditto Buffy,
That reminds me of something I meant to say some time ago when somebody
questioned what Buffy sees in Xander as a friend. A lot's been said about
his heart, courage, loyalty, insight, conscience - and lack thereof. All
fine and true. But I think the natural connect is Xander's sense of humor.
One wisecracker to another. I won't say Xander makes Buffy laugh - she
doesn't laugh. But I think she enjoys him.
> It occurs to me, reading this very nice summary, that Buffy is quite a
> contrast to Willow. She's curiously lacking in inquisitiveness, even
> back in s1. She's not brilliant or ambitious, she's not interested in
> being The Best, even though in fact she *is* the best. It's irrelevant
> to her. She doesn't have great resources for expressing either joy or
> rage--she tends to express both by punching someone. She figures out
> how to overcome or outmanoeuvre her adversaries by being dogged and
> utterly focused and knowledgeable, whereas Willow is always looking for
> the dazzling innovation, the leap of intuition, the marvelous shortcut.
Yes, I agree. But the thing about Buffy is that she will figure things
out - sometimes extremely hard and complicated things. She treats problems
as work, and since she's willing to work at things that Willow more
naturally seeks to finesse, sometimes it's her that finds the dazzling
innovation, the leap of intuition rather than Willow. Buffy's focus does
much the same. It may be narrow, but within it's scope she can operate on a
plane above everybody else.
> And even now, in s7, they remain essentially what they have always
> been, despite all the changes they've been through.
>
> On another list, I've been watching an interesting discussion among
> screenwriters of characters that remain constant throughout a story,
> without an arc of growth. In some ways, they are the most interesting
> ones.
I don't know where that discussion went, but the first thing that crosses my
mind is that you can get some of the most fantastic explorations of teamwork
with stable characters that know each other well. Think bridge of the
Enterprise. Similar thinking would extend into any group interaction -
small or large. Bringing it back to BtVS, I think that's a bit of what I
liked so much about the early group scenes in Beneath You before mad Spike
took over. The dialog works very well for me because the depth of
understanding they have for each other allows for a lot of nuance in few
words. Having the Nancy character act as innocent observer works nicely
because she can see how loaded the conversations are without being able to
see what they're loaded with. Conversations like that would be much more
tenuous if everybody was changing. (They probably *will* all change in some
fashion, but at that moment they were on stable ground relative to each
other.)
OBS
Arbitrar Of Quality
> That reminds me of something I meant to say some time ago when somebody
> questioned what Buffy sees in Xander as a friend. A lot's been said about
> his heart, courage, loyalty, insight, conscience - and lack thereof. All
> fine and true. But I think the natural connect is Xander's sense of humor.
> One wisecracker to another. I won't say Xander makes Buffy laugh - she
> doesn't laugh. But I think she enjoys him.
That's well said. Having seen the original pilot relatively recently,
at least compared to the other early episodes, I do wish the
conversation about the high school groups had made it into the fina
WTTH, because it lets Buffy and Xander start enjoying each others'
company right away. I don't think she was too deeply surprised that he
eventually developed into the guy you want to spend time with after a
crazed robot attack.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
Malsperanza wrote:
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>
> > For some reason the thought of Giles constantly getting knocked out comes to
> > mind. Repeated concussions are not inherently funny. Yet, there was much
> > humor found... Humor's funny that way.
> >
> > Internal to the story we have a crew of folks whose lives revolve around
> > risking their lives - and sometimes losing them. It's a bloody, awful,
> > sometimes mind numbing way to live. They find their humor where it's
> > offered. Thank heavens they do, or they'd be forever stuck as nothing but
> > depressed sourpusses. People complain about too much of that as it is.
> > Buffy's "inappropriate" sense of humor makes her a better slayer. Do you
> > want to see her impression of Gandhi?
>
> It's interesting that some characters get the humor, and others don't.
> Giles never quite does, frex. Dawn's sense of humor seems rather
> limited by her own self-absorption and inability (for the most part) to
> accept being laughed at. I sometimes think one can track which
> characters are dearest to Whedon's heart by how much humor he lets them
> express, and how wacky he let's them be with it. I don't just mean
> Xander, say, behaving in ways that make us laugh; I mean Xander
> laughing at something dumb he's done--or Buffy has said, or even at
> something horrible that has happened. A sense of humor is one of
> Xander's most humanizing characteristics; ditto Buffy, Willow,
> occasionally Spike. I'm enjoying Robin Wood's sense of humor just now.
Giles has made a few snide remarks about his history of getting knocked
out. He has a pretty rich sense of humor that isn't always on the
surface.
Disagree about that as a rubrick for how much Joss likes a character -
in large part because he's said that there's a lot of him in Giles (or
the other way 'round).
> It occurs to me, reading this very nice summary, that Buffy is quite a
> contrast to Willow. She's curiously lacking in inquisitiveness, even
> back in s1. She's not brilliant or ambitious, she's not interested in
> being The Best, even though in fact she *is* the best. It's irrelevant
> to her. She doesn't have great resources for expressing either joy or
> rage--she tends to express both by punching someone. She figures out
> how to overcome or outmanoeuvre her adversaries by being dogged and
> utterly focused and knowledgeable, whereas Willow is always looking for
> the dazzling innovation, the leap of intuition, the marvelous shortcut.
>
> And even now, in s7, they remain essentially what they have always
> been, despite all the changes they've been through.
I can't add anything to that, but it's pretty true.
-AOQ
(Harmony) Watcher
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1158207599.3...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
robot attack"? There's a sexy nickname
(http://bdb.vrya.net/bdb/clip.php?clip=1466). I'm not sure Xander would find
it flattering.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
hayes62
Malsperanza wrote:
> It occurs to me, reading this very nice summary, that Buffy is quite a
> contrast to Willow. She's curiously lacking in inquisitiveness, even
> back in s1. She's not brilliant or ambitious, she's not interested in
> being The Best, even though in fact she *is* the best. It's irrelevant
> to her. She doesn't have great resources for expressing either joy or
> rage--she tends to express both by punching someone. She figures out
> how to overcome or outmanoeuvre her adversaries by being dogged and
> utterly focused and knowledgeable, whereas Willow is always looking for
> the dazzling innovation, the leap of intuition, the marvelous shortcut.
That's interesting because while I agree that they contrast each other
I see it quite differently. Willow's the academic, she figures things
out by researching them. Sometimes more legally than others but she
hits the books, hacks online databases, traces essences. Buffy doesn't
do research or formal thinking but when the information's laid out in
front of her she's often the first to intuit the solution to the the
puzzle. From figuring out that Amy and Catherine have switched bodies,
to grasping that her blood can substitute for Dawn's. It's a big part
of her fighting style too (I wrote an essay on this once). When she's
not improvising weapons from unlikely objects, she's turning the tables
on her opponents by tricking them into thinking it's daylight.
Manfred Noland
Espen Schjønberg
> In article <1158152014.8...@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Willow's part of the story isn't played for laughs at all. Seeing her
>>get skinned certainly isn't meant to be funny. As fo "deserving"
>>forgiveness, there're still people arguing that she gets off too easy
>>in any case. The Buffyverse as a whole may have a sense of karma, but
>>our heroes would have forgiven her with or without Gnarl. And they
>>won't ever be able to trust her the way they used to no matter how
>>willing they are to forgive, and it's hard to sensibly blame them for
>>that.
>
>
> Forgiving the "unforgivable" is a common theme in BtVS.
>
> To forgive is an act of compassion, Buffy. It's not done
> because people deserve it. It's done because they need it.
>
> I'd also add that giving forgiveness is more important than receiving it.
My impression is the moral in Buffy is _Christian_ in the early seasons,
and not Christian - possible jewish, I don't know much about jewes, but
it gives this "tooth for a tooth"-impression - in the later seasons.
Do not get me wrong: but I prefer the Christian moral. In the jewish
version, you will never be good enough, and there is nothing to do about
it.
In the Christian one you can never be good enough, but that is how we
are, and we grant each other the right to it.
I may be wrong about how jewish moral actually are constructed of course.
--
Espen
Malsperanza
The other conversation was about the character of Jack Sparrow in the
"Pirates of the Caribbean" movies (which I love). He's a classic
Trickster character, and doesn't change--we just learn more about him
over time. As such, he's a catalyst for the other characters; he enters
the story and disrupts all the social norms and patterns, and everyone
else's life gets realigned as a result.
There's no direct equivalent in BtVS, but since Tricksters fascinate
me, I've thought a bit about how some of that character turns up in
various ways in some of the BtVS characters--in the vampires and
demons, in Spike, and in Willow especially. It's a bit of a stretch,
though. And as the screenwriters of Pirates of the Caribbean have
pointed out, one should never try to apply the formulas of Joseph
Campbell too automatically to well-written characters.
> Bringing it back to BtVS, I think that's a bit of what I
> liked so much about the early group scenes in Beneath You before mad Spike
> took over. The dialog works very well for me because the depth of
> understanding they have for each other allows for a lot of nuance in few
> words. Having the Nancy character act as innocent observer works nicely
> because she can see how loaded the conversations are without being able to
> see what they're loaded with.
I have a question about this. One reason those scenes work so well is
that *we* also know these characters very well by now. Our "friendship"
with them is coeval with theirs--we all met at the same time (except
for Xander and Willow). A viewer joining BtVS in s7 would be in the
position of Nancy. It's a clever way for the show to involve new
viewers--much more adroit than in earlier seasons, which are peppered
with exposition fairies explaining, "Now I'm going to refuse to kill
you because of our long history" and the like. But it depends on Nancy
being a well-crafted character--and she is strikingly better than a
good many other characters introduced late into the story. E.g., fond
though I am of Clem, he's essentially a one-liner, and does not help us
to see the story or the people in it from new perspectives.
> Conversations like that would be much more
> tenuous if everybody was changing. (They probably *will* all change in some
> fashion, but at that moment they were on stable ground relative to each
> other.)
Maybe. We shall see.
~Mal
William George Ferguson
That word 'inconsistent', you keep using that word. I don't think it means
what you think it means :)
They forgive people they know. They don't forgive people they don't know.
They are very consistent about it (is there one instance of them not
forgiving someone they know, or of them forgiving someone they don't
know?).
--
... and my sister is a vampire slayer, her best friend is a witch who
went bonkers and tried to destroy the world, um, I actually used to be
a little ball of energy until about two years ago when some monks
changed the past and made me Buffy's sister and for some reason, a big
klepto. My best friends are Leticia Jones, who moved to San Diego
because this town is evil, and a floppy eared demon named Clem.
(Dawn's fantasy of her intro speech in "Lessons", from the shooting script)
Malsperanza
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Malsperanza wrote:
> > One Bit Shy wrote:
> >
> > > For some reason the thought of Giles constantly getting knocked out comes to
> > > mind. Repeated concussions are not inherently funny. Yet, there was much
> > > humor found... Humor's funny that way.
Consider Roadrunner v. Wile. E. Coyote. Shouldn't be funny. Is. Giles
sometimes reminds me of Wile. E. Coyote: in some ways he's rather naive
and innocent--a natural victim of wittier and more quick-minded
adversaries; he borders on a TV cliche (wise but prissy and prolix
older man with English accent & wire-rimmed glasses who reads too much
and Doesn't Know the Real World--a kind of Nestor character), but
manages to avoid falling into that pit by often being right, and
sometimes being very brave, and occasionally being downright stupid and
offensive. In other words, farily 3-D.
> > > Internal to the story we have a crew of folks whose lives revolve around
> > > risking their lives - and sometimes losing them. It's a bloody, awful,
> > > sometimes mind numbing way to live. They find their humor where it's
> > > offered. Thank heavens they do, or they'd be forever stuck as nothing but
> > > depressed sourpusses. People complain about too much of that as it is.
> > > Buffy's "inappropriate" sense of humor makes her a better slayer. Do you
> > > want to see her impression of Gandhi?
> >
> > It's interesting that some characters get the humor, and others don't.
> > Giles never quite does, frex. Dawn's sense of humor seems rather
> > limited by her own self-absorption and inability (for the most part) to
> > accept being laughed at. I sometimes think one can track which
> > characters are dearest to Whedon's heart by how much humor he lets them
> > express, and how wacky he let's them be with it. I don't just mean
> > Xander, say, behaving in ways that make us laugh; I mean Xander
> > laughing at something dumb he's done--or Buffy has said, or even at
> > something horrible that has happened. A sense of humor is one of
> > Xander's most humanizing characteristics; ditto Buffy, Willow,
> > occasionally Spike. I'm enjoying Robin Wood's sense of humor just now.
>
> Giles has made a few snide remarks about his history of getting knocked
> out. He has a pretty rich sense of humor that isn't always on the
> surface.
>
> Disagree about that as a rubrick for how much Joss likes a character -
> in large part because he's said that there's a lot of him in Giles (or
> the other way 'round).
I don't pay too much attention to things said outside the canon of the
show itself, for better or worse. Though Giles is a worthy man and an
enjoyable character to watch, I don't see a spark of creativity in
him--not even a little, which makes it hard for me to see much Whedon
in him.
But what I was really thinking about was the warmth with which some
characters are treated, especially when they are showing their
weaknesses and flaws. Xander at his most geeky and insecure is written
with great tenderness and kindness. Even when he is being judgmental
and selfish, we are always given internally consistent reasons for his
(bad) decisions and (blind) pov. Ditto Willow, Buffy, Spike, Angel,
even Dawn.
I don't quite see that with Giles (and some other characters). Giles's
weaknesses and flaws are that he is a little too sure that, as the
elder stateman of the group, he sees most clearly and has the soundest,
most objective judgment. He doesn't recognize when his judgment is
being influenced by his own prejudices, hopes, or fears. Yet we are
given very few opportunities to see his internal reasons for his (bad)
decisions and (blind) pov. To my ear he is written with less sympathy
than Xander, Willow, or even, say, Oz. And his lack of humor (or
perhaps the extreme subtlety of it, which I am mostly missing, I think)
tends to reinforce my sense of his coldness, his lack of imagination.
But YMMV of course.
~Mal
Malsperanza
Yes, I can see that. I dunno... Willow hits the books, but after about
s3 she doesn't display solid scholarly skills--she's like an academic
who borrows a lot of her research and fails to cite her sources. She
cheats, she jumps from one line of inquiry to another, and then she
turns away from the books to inventing her own fixes. If she had
researched what it meant to bring Buffy back from the dead, she might
have done things differently (for better or worse). But she
deliberately chose not to dig too deeply or ask those questions because
she knew what she wanted to do and was excited by the chance to test if
she could pull off such a huge coup.
Buffy does make those leaps of insight that everyone else misses, and I
agree that it's what makes her not just the Slayer but probably the
best Slayer the world has ever seen. One question I have, BTW, is
whether she starts out in s1 with that skill, or learns it. As best I
can tell (and I haven't watched s1 in a long time), she starts out with
the skill already there. (E.g. the Amy/Mom switch.)
It may be just semantics for me to say that I don't see Buffy's
intelligence as intuitive or brilliant or spontaneous, or even
geniusey. She gets all the information and follows it to a logical
conclusion that no one else quite sees. Perhaps it's because she does
have more insight (e.g., in how she views Spike, perhaps), or it may be
that she just has much greater focus. After she's drawn the necessary
conclusion (Amy's mom has switched her own daughter's body), it looks
obvious, and everyone around her looks slightly lazy for not having
seen it. Maybe that is a kind of intuitive genius--like some of the
greatest mathematicians. But it looks like dogged hard work, somehow.
~Mal
vague disclaimer
Espen Schjønberg <ess...@excite.com> wrote:
> On 13.09.2006 05:01, Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > Espen Schjønberg wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I knew AOQ would rate it high, given I don't like it.
> >
> >
> > Yeah, that does seem to be the trend, huh? I'm sorry you don't enjoy
> > the later seasons as much as I do.
>
> It was S6 I didn't enjoy. After three episodes - of which the first I
> rate on the border of excellent,and the second I didn't comment- - it
> would be to early to say "later seasons", don't you think?
>
> >>I don't like it because I find it mean in the wrong way, just the wrong
> >>way I have seen many people here enjoy.
> >
> >
> > Mean to the characters or to the viewers?
>
> Mean to the characters? Dawn is afraid of dying, and they treat her like
> they find it as great fun. She is afraid of being strangled by her own
> barf, and they think it is great fun? Yeah, I always wanted Dawn to die,
> but I didn't like the posable Dawn, no.
The shows mission statement was set out very early on:
"Oh, huh, I laugh in the face of danger. Then I hide until it goes away."
You've had the notion of gallows humour explained to you. That you
cannot grasp it does not make the episode "disgusting".
> Willow? So, the morale of the show is she "deserves" to be skinned
> alive. Very amusing?
Where in the name of The Great Prophet Zarquon do you get that from?
On second thoughts, I think I know. I didn't realise AI experiments had
arses.
>Not.
Correct. That's not how it was played and not how it was intended.
> Hasn't she talked about understanding it was a
> bad thing to skin Warren alive? Don't talk about what it takes to
> deserve forgiveness. In season two, the creators of the show knew the
> answer to that: We don't give forgiveness to people because they deserve
> it, but because they need it. And that was even in a MN episode.
The episode is about acceptance and trust. The forgiveness is already
done. In fact the Scoobies, knowing full well that Willow didn't
complete her rehab, still make the leap of faith.
--
Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
Arbitrar Of Quality
Espen Schjønberg wrote:
> My impression is the moral in Buffy is _Christian_ in the early seasons,
> and not Christian - possible jewish, I don't know much about jewes, but
> it gives this "tooth for a tooth"-impression - in the later seasons.
>
> Do not get me wrong: but I prefer the Christian moral. In the jewish
> version, you will never be good enough, and there is nothing to do about
> it.
>
> In the Christian one you can never be good enough, but that is how we
> are, and we grant each other the right to it.
>
> I may be wrong about how jewish moral actually are constructed of course.
You are wrong about Jewish thought. But it's a common misconception.
I haven't noticed any big shifts in the show's vision of morality, but
then, I've only watched through it once. The universe itself has
always been kinda karmic though, in that bad people get punished in
some way. It doesn't fall neatly into religious lines for me,
espcially given that Joss is an athiest, but there's plenty of
Christianity-inspired imagery, some that's already part of the vampire
mythos and some that's supplied by the show.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> But what I was really thinking about was the warmth with which some
> characters are treated, especially when they are showing their
> weaknesses and flaws. Xander at his most geeky and insecure is written
> with great tenderness and kindness. Even when he is being judgmental
> and selfish, we are always given internally consistent reasons for his
> (bad) decisions and (blind) pov. Ditto Willow, Buffy, Spike, Angel,
> even Dawn.
>
> I don't quite see that with Giles (and some other characters). Giles's
> weaknesses and flaws are that he is a little too sure that, as the
> elder stateman of the group, he sees most clearly and has the soundest,
> most objective judgment. He doesn't recognize when his judgment is
> being influenced by his own prejudices, hopes, or fears. Yet we are
> given very few opportunities to see his internal reasons for his (bad)
> decisions and (blind) pov. To my ear he is written with less sympathy
> than Xander, Willow, or even, say, Oz.
I'd have disagreed with that pretty strongly except for the big his big
lapse of judgment in S6, which we don't get to understand much from his
POV since the actor isn't available. Giles starts the series as the
Wise Authority Figure - as you've noted, he often deviates from the
arechtype, of course, but in the early episodes he's the father-figure
who turns out to be right at the end. The characer's whole
progression, and I'm thinking especially of S3/4 here, deals with him
coming to terms with the narrowness of his worldview, and come to place
his trust in his Slayer rather than in his old dogmas. And then
successes in that bring out his tendency to passively retreat into his
own life, and regard himself as old and superfluous, which brings up
more storylines.
As for the cold, emotionless thing, how anyone could watch this show
(the whole series, I mean, not the odd episode here and there) and not
become overwhelmed by the waves of tenderness and care that come off
this character is hard for me to imagine. The fact that his natural
demanor is so reserved/stuffy and British-Gentleman makes it all the
more powerful when he opens up a little. Tony Head, at least in this
role, can do so much with a facial expression or with a softly-spoken
sentence.
> And his lack of humor (or
> perhaps the extreme subtlety of it, which I am mostly missing, I think)
> tends to reinforce my sense of his coldness, his lack of imagination.
> But YMMV of course.
Subtlety, not lack. Giles seemed to get about half of the best lines
in the early seasons.
-AOQ
hayes62
Malsperanza wrote:
> Yes, I can see that. I dunno... Willow hits the books, but after about
> s3 she doesn't display solid scholarly skills--she's like an academic
> who borrows a lot of her research and fails to cite her sources. She
> cheats, she jumps from one line of inquiry to another, and then she
> turns away from the books to inventing her own fixes.
In science that's often how it goes as you progress from book learning
to doing your own experiments. But I think its significant both times
she goes on a rampage books are used as the metaphor for the source of
her power.
> If she had researched what it meant to bring Buffy back from the dead, she might
> have done things differently (for better or worse). But she
> deliberately chose not to dig too deeply or ask those questions because
> she knew what she wanted to do and was excited by the chance to test if
> she could pull off such a huge coup.
Another flaw in the academic mindset is specialisation. Willow's
entirely focussed on the Chemistry of the spell (which ingredients,
which ritual to catalyse them) she completely ignores the Geography.
> It may be just semantics for me to say that I don't see Buffy's
> intelligence as intuitive or brilliant or spontaneous, or even
> geniusey. She gets all the information and follows it to a logical
> conclusion that no one else quite sees. Perhaps it's because she does
> have more insight (e.g., in how she views Spike, perhaps), or it may be
> that she just has much greater focus. After she's drawn the necessary
> conclusion (Amy's mom has switched her own daughter's body), it looks
> obvious, and everyone around her looks slightly lazy for not having
> seen it. Maybe that is a kind of intuitive genius--like some of the
> greatest mathematicians. But it looks like dogged hard work, somehow.
>
I think we'll have to go with semantics, to me being able to come to a
novel conclusion from the same data as everyone else is pretty much the
definition of genius. Many of the big advances in science, from gravity
to natural selection, seem obvious now. And what Buffy does also
doesn't look like dogged hard work to me, it all happens too quickly.
Espen Schjønberg
> Espen Schjønberg wrote:
>
>
>>My impression is the moral in Buffy is _Christian_ in the early seasons,
>>and not Christian - possible jewish, I don't know much about jewes, but
>>it gives this "tooth for a tooth"-impression - in the later seasons.
>>
>>Do not get me wrong: but I prefer the Christian moral. In the jewish
>>version, you will never be good enough, and there is nothing to do about
>>it.
>>
>>In the Christian one you can never be good enough, but that is how we
>>are, and we grant each other the right to it.
>>
>>I may be wrong about how jewish moral actually are constructed of course.
>
>
> You are wrong about Jewish thought. But it's a common misconception.
Thank you.
I was thinking I should have rephrased it after I sent it. It is
basically the old testament impression, which of course is wrong to
claim is just jewish.
> I haven't noticed any big shifts in the show's vision of morality, but
> then, I've only watched through it once. The universe itself has
> always been kinda karmic though, in that bad people get punished in
> some way.
Everybody gets punished in Buffy, it's always been like that. But I did
get the impression here the punishment is now much more obvious related
to their badness, ie Willow gets skinned alive and things like that.
> It doesn't fall neatly into religious lines for me,
> espcially given that Joss is an athiest, but there's plenty of
> Christianity-inspired imagery,
JW can claim to be an atheist as much as he like, of course, but to me,
this thing about forgiveness in IOHEFY is the most central part of
Christianity. It is so central, it is tempting to claim it _is_
Christianity.
Also, I do get the clear impression this line is lost, so totally,
totally lost, in an episode like STSP. Here, we are over in an
old-testament evilness.
--
Espen
Rincewind
>
> JW can claim to be an atheist as much as he like, of course, but to me,
> this thing about forgiveness in IOHEFY is the most central part of
> Christianity. It is so central, it is tempting to claim it _is_
> Christianity.
>
> Also, I do get the clear impression this line is lost, so totally, totally
> lost, in an episode like STSP. Here, we are over in an old-testament
> evilness.
You are not totally wrong.
I have noticed a shift in the moral foundations of the show too, but not a
linear shift from one type of moral to another: what I have noticed is a
rather schizophrenic random emergence of the various different moral
positions of the different writers.
I think in the early seasons Joss had a lot more control on the show and
consistently injected his own personal views into it. In later seasons he
still had control over the basic season plot lines but didn't interfere too
much with the details so every writers took the opportunity to put their own
moral perspectives into their respective episodes.
Rincewind.
--
Lines you'll never hear on Buffy:
JOYCE: Do I need to spell this out for you, Angel? Vampire. Vampire Slayer.
PMS.
ANGEL: Right, I'm outta here. I'll send you a card from LA.
Clairel
George W Harris wrote:
> On 12 Sep 2006 15:50:40 -0700, "Clairel" <reld...@usa.net> wrote:
>
> :
> :(Harmony) Watcher wrote:
> :> <lili...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> :> news:1158039901.3...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> :> >
> :> > >
> :> > > AOQ rating: Excellent
> :> > >
> :> > > [Season Seven so far:
> :> > > 1) "Lessons" - Good
> :> > > 2) "Beneath You" - Decent
> :> > > 3) "Same Time, Same Place" - Excellent]
> :> >
> :> > OK, this just plain out tells me you have no taste ;-)
> :> >
> :> > I mean, Excellent? I'd give it decent, but no more than that. fifth
> :> > worst ep of the season as far as I'm concerned.
> :
> :--I don't hate it or anything, but I don't think STSP is all that great
> :either. It has its moments, but compared to the excellent "Beneath
> :You," STSP just isn't anything special. I don't understand what AOQ is
> :so excited about, actually.
> :
> :When a review fails to convey why it rates something as "excellent,"
> :then there's a real problem. In the immortal words of George Kennedy,
> :"What we have here is a failure to communicate."
>
> It's obvious. Liliaeth doesn't like it because it
> has too much Willow, and you don't like it because it
> doesn't have enough Blondie Bear.
--Weird that I love "Selfless" so much, then, since it has even less
Spike screentime than STSP does. And then there are all those great
season 3 episodes I love such as Doppelgangland, and just about
everything with the Mayor and Faith in it, that don't have Spike in
them at all. (The one s3 episode with Spike in it, "Lovers Walk," is
an episode I used to love, but like less and less as time goes on.)
Doesn't oversimplification make things so much more comfy? Sorry I
can't let the comfiness continue!
What "Selfless" has, with Aud, Olaf, D'Hoffryn, etc., is great. It
doesn't really need Spike in it at all, though for the sake of how
"Him" starts out I guess it's good the way is paved for that.
What STSP has, with Willow, The Gnarl, and so on, is so-so; not because
it's Spike-lite, but just because it's so so in and of itself.
Am still looking for a follow-up post by AOQ, if there is one, that
explains his reasons better. The original review of STSP didn't.
Clairel
Arbitrar Of Quality
Clairel wrote:
> What STSP has, with Willow, The Gnarl, and so on, is so-so; not because
> it's Spike-lite, but just because it's so so in and of itself.
Well, so's your face.
> Am still looking for a follow-up post by AOQ, if there is one, that
> explains his reasons better. The original review of STSP didn't.
I'm sorry you don't feel that way; others did understand where I was
coming from. As all mentioned originally, I think STSP makes the most
of its concept premise, is thoroughly engrossing despite/because of
how quiet and moody it is, has some good Willow/Anya interplay,
features some of the most genuinely gruesome (in a good way) violence
of the series, convincingly shows the reconciliation between Willow and
her friends without ignoring the awkwardness and underlying problems
(especially in the killer closing scene). And on top of all that,
finds time for plenty of great quotables without damaging the mood.
-AOQ
~Comically Posable Dawn is almost enough for an automatic Excellent
anyway~
~~That's an exaggeration, but not by as much as you'd think~~
James Craine
Clairel wrote:
>>>When a review fails to convey why it rates something as "excellent,"
>>>then there's a real problem. In the immortal words of George Kennedy,
>>>"What we have here is a failure to communicate."
>>
>>I thought Strother Martin said that. Did George also say it?
>
>
> --I'm going by memory; I haven't checked. I remember it as George
> Kennedy, but I may be wrong.
>
> Clairel
>
I believe it is Strother. George was a fellow inmate. Also,
in the beginning of the Guns n Roses song 'Civil War' there
is that quote and it sounds like Strother.