AOQ Review 2-20: "Go Fish"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Two, Episode 20: "Go Fish"
(or "I am breathing water/I am breathing water/You know a body's
got to breathe")
Writers: David Fury and Elin Hampton
Director: David Semel
>From moment one this episode knows where it's going: we're doing
comedy, or at least fun. I could spend the bulk of this review quoting
lines, but not many really stand out in retrospect. I'll say this,
though: that light touch that makes the fun moments of BTVS so
enjoyable to watch? Here and accounted for. This episode "gets
it." I got a few "does AOQ hate humor or something?" sentiments
after panning the vile "Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered."
Well, no, I don't. I just don't think the show is really playing
to its strengths when it goes for excess farce ("Teacher's Pet,"
3B), excess embarrassment ("The Puppet Show," "Reptile Boy"), or
excess Cordelia (WttH-present). "Go Fish," on the other hand,
while not being as good as the show's best "fun" episodes like
"Witch" and "Halloween," is cut from the same cloth. This
would be a very good thing.
I'm remembering our recent discussion about "Phases" and whether
Buffy should go out of her way to be all meek and girly. I still say
all that'd do is lead her into situations where she has a chance to
get really angry before unloading. And you gotta admit, it's
satisfying to watch how easily she handles Cameron when merely angry
rather than homicidal. If she'd waited any longer, he'd have
gotten hurt a lot worse. But on the flipside, I'm glad to see that
some are scared away by that kind of behavior. "Man, that girl gives
me the creeps." As would be expected, and as we should be seeing
more often. I was actually expecting her to "suspiciously" happen
to be in the same place as the bodies of kids she'd been seen arguing
with shortly before their deaths... maybe that's another episode
waiting to be filmed.
The amusing "high mortality rate" exchange that opens the show also
leads to the fact that people are (apparently) dying, which would seem
to be interfere with the mood of lightness. There's a dark
underbelly to this one (again like "Witch"), between the killing
and the extent to which the authorities are willing to turn a blind eye
to he jocks' behavior. But almost anything can be made funny if the
circumstances are right (good thing the episode sets that mood, given
that it ends with Buffy coming up with a quip while a character is
being gang-raped). Let's look at how one of the early gags is put
together: Buffy comes face-to-face with Snyder and company in full
school-spirit mode, and is next seen venting about the evils of the
swim team. We stay focused on her, and we'd expect some sympathy
given that her anger is justified and that the others had the same
complaints two scenes earlier. Pan over to the others, who clearly
have something else on their minds. "So, anything new with you
guys?" she asks lamely, upon finally noticing. Despite the gruesome
events, we're in the mood to laugh now. And thus Buffy and Xander
can amuse us with their tangent about demons with high cholesterol.
"You're gonna think about that later, mister, and you're gonna
laugh." Because it's funny.
That's why I'm not going to try not to talk too extensively about
this episode - is there anything more pointless than explaining a
joke? It speaks for itself. The rest will be random observations.
Okay, one more general paragraph first: the series of developments that
put a spin on the monster storyline aren't shocking or anything, but
I didn't see most of them coming, which keeps things entertaining.
Drugs are involved, and we have _Angel_ to thank for pointing us in
that direction? Hmmm. Eviscerated bodies are in fact not the result
of murder, but of the swimmers getting in touch with their inner fish?
Didn't see that coming. Coach Marin does a good job of playing one
stock character before ultimately turning out to be a different (quite
entertaining) one. Things move along at a nice clip throughout the
show, a pleasant diversion to keep us from thinking too hard about how
silly things are getting.
It was a little sad to see Gage get "killed;" he was actually
turning out to be an interesting character compared to his teammates.
If you have biased sources of information, his initial distrust of
Buffy makes sense, and he shows himself capable of rational thought
once a few things about vampires become clear....
I'd have ended the scene where the nurse dies about fifteen seconds
earlier, at "you quitter." We get it. If you're not going to
show the killing, don't prolong the scene.
The _Creature From The Black Lagoon_ references were obvious the moment
the monster appeared, but not every show could find a way to work in
_The Blue Lagoon_ too.
Since their relationship has been built on silly clichés anyway, the
part where Cordelia reveals the depths of her feelings, not knowing
that Xander's right there, fits the mold. In this case the reason
the scene didn't work is that I don't think Carpenter played it
very well. I can see where it'd be easy to get tripped up trying to
shift between different levels of sincerity, sometimes from one word to
the next.
I don't get why Buffy doesn't just kick the gun out of Marin's
hand. We've seen her do stuff like that before. Also, I'm
continually impressed with her ability to remain flippant under almost
any circumstances.
Xander: Action Hero makes another appearance, and when he picks
situations where he's actually capable of helping, does pretty well.
Speaking of Mr. Gross Emotional Problems, Cordelia seems to think that
he's doing this to (successfully) impress her. I can't help but
notice, though, that his bravery tends to coincide quite a bit with how
much Buffy needs him. Funny, that...
Also, now that the script has given the _characters_ (not just the
audience) a chance to comment that Brendon isn't exactly hard on the
eyes, my inner curmudgeon can get back to demanding why no one's
seemed to noticed this obvious fact before.
So, how do you guys feel about the fish-swimmers being allowed to go
home at the end? Do they deserve worse, or are they just victims?
This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
- Anything and everything connected with Willow The Interrogator.
- "It's a terrible, terrible tragedy. We all feel your pain, Coach. I
don't know two finer boys than Cameron and... that other one."
That's all I've got today.
So...
One-sentence summary: Light and pleasant, matches nicely with a white
zinfandel.
AOQ rating: Good
[Season Two so far:
1) "When She Was Bad" - Good
2) "Some Assembly Required" - Weak
3) "School Hard" - Decent
4) "Inca Mummy Girl" - Good
5) "Reptile Boy" - Decent
6) "Halloween" - Good
7) "Lie To Me" - Good
8) "The Dark Age" - Good
9) "What's My Line (Part One)" - Good
10) "What's My Line (Part Two)" - Good
11) "Ted" - Excellent
12) "Bad Eggs" - Bad
13) "Surprise" - Decent
14) "Innocence" - Excellent
15) "Phases" - Decent
16) "Bewitched, Bothered, And Bewildered" - Bad
17) "Passion" - Good
18) "Killed By Death" - Decent
19) "I Only Have Eyes For You" - Good
20) "Go Fish" - Good]
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Two, Episode 20: "Go Fish"
> (or "I am breathing water/I am breathing water/You know a body's
> got to breathe")
> Writers: David Fury and Elin Hampton
> Director: David Semel
>
> The amusing "high mortality rate" exchange that opens the show also
> leads to the fact that people are (apparently) dying, which would seem
> to be interfere with the mood of lightness.
Even though Fonderin High took an early lead in the Cross Town Body
Count Competition for the 1997/8 school year, Sunnydale High came back
quickly. By this point we have seen 19 people die on Sunnydale High
campus since the start of the series, and eight so far this year.
At least 6 members of the school staff have died. (It is unclear whether
the two people killed in 'School Hard' were parents or staff.)
> There's a dark
> underbelly to this one (again like "Witch"), between the killing
> and the extent to which the authorities are willing to turn a blind eye
> to he jocks' behavior. But almost anything can be made funny if the
> circumstances are right (good thing the episode sets that mood, given
> that it ends with Buffy coming up with a quip while a character is
> being gang-raped).
Some people think it was a gang rape. I think they were just eating him.
> Okay, one more general paragraph first: the series of developments that
> put a spin on the monster storyline aren't shocking or anything, but
> I didn't see most of them coming, which keeps things entertaining.
> Drugs are involved, and we have Angel to thank for pointing us in
> that direction?
And there's the moment we see that Buffy has started to use stakes as
fashion accessories.
>
> Also, now that the script has given the characters (not just the
> audience) a chance to comment that Brendon isn't exactly hard on the
> eyes, my inner curmudgeon can get back to demanding why no one's
> seemed to noticed this obvious fact before.
This is something that comes up quite a few times in Joss's commentaries
on the DVDs: how his band of high school "outcasts" are all so
incredibly good looking.
>
> So, how do you guys feel about the fish-swimmers being allowed to go
> home at the end? Do they deserve worse, or are they just victims?
They were primarily victims, and what was Buffy supposed to do about
them anyway? Hire Quint Jr., and the Orca III and go fishing?
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
kenm47
Cool! Gives Prison Break a whole new resonance. Well, not really, but
cool anyway.
IIRC, this is often on a 10 worst list. Not mine but others. Again
IIRC.
Nice little slow the pacing MOTW before the big 2 part season (Series
maybe? Not sure what we knew then) finale.
What a creep we have in Snyder!
"Good" is fine with me, even if I have little to say about this
episode.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> The amusing "high mortality rate" exchange that opens the show also
> leads to the fact that people are (apparently) dying, which would seem
> to be interfere with the mood of lightness.
People adapt. Even in real world war zones, where people are dying at
regular intervals, people continue to laugh, and have fun, and live
their lives. There's a lot of gallows humour in Buffy. They have to
laugh about it; if they didn't they'd just give up and die.
Clairel
kenm47 wrote:
> Wentworth Miller? Holy cow! Wentworth Miller! I had never noticed.
> Cool! Gives Prison Break a whole new resonance. Well, not really, but
> cool anyway.
--Since this is the first "Go Fish" discussion there has even been
since Wentworth Miller began starring in "Prison Break," I wondered if
that point would come up.
I only know about it because I read about it in an article about
Wentworth Miller. I certainly didn't remember the look of the "Go
Fish" character when I began watching "Prison Break." Honestly, the
character whom Miller played in "Go Fish" just wasn't that memorable.
(Similarly, I never remembered having seen Josh Holloway in an AtS
episode prior to watching him as Sawyer on "Lost." The only reason I
know is because I read about it.) I've always meant to rewatch "Go
Fish" just to spot Wentworth Miller in it, but I can't seem to work up
the motivation to do so. And that brings up another point...
> IIRC, this is often on a 10 worst list. Not mine but others. Again
> IIRC.
>
> Nice little slow the pacing MOTW before the big 2 part season (Series
> maybe? Not sure what we knew then) finale.
>
> What a creep we have in Snyder!
>
> "Good" is fine with me, even if I have little to say about this
> episode.
--My point (see above) is that "good" seems an overly-generous rating
for a blah episode that I never feel like rewatching and--like
Ken--have little to say about. I don't hate "Go Fish" the way some
people do, but it just wasn't very interesting or memorable. Yeah, I
know, these are AOQ's ratings and nobody else's, but I'm curious to
know whether rewatchability is a criterion in his rankings, and whether
he would ever feel like rewatching "Go Fish."
To me, the rating "Good" is synonymous with "would reward rewatching';
and the rating "Excellent" is synonymous with "infinitely rewatchable,
infinitely rewarding, un embarras de richesse."
Do others here who have been fans for a long time feel the same way
about episode quality and rewatchability?
Clairel
KenM47
>In article <1140928226.1...@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The amusing "high mortality rate" exchange that opens the show also
>> leads to the fact that people are (apparently) dying, which would seem
>> to be interfere with the mood of lightness.
>
>People adapt. Even in real world war zones, where people are dying at
>regular intervals, people continue to laugh, and have fun, and live
>their lives. There's a lot of gallows humour in Buffy. They have to
>laugh about it; if they didn't they'd just give up and die.
ROT13
Fbzrgvzrf gurl tb.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Two, Episode 20: "Go Fish"
> (or "I am breathing water/I am breathing water/You know a body's
> got to breathe")
> Writers: David Fury and Elin Hampton
> Director: David Semel
This episode gives us even more evidence that it isn't just
"forgetyitous" that makes a lot of people in Sunnydale ignore what's
going on. Sunnydale's animal control people get sent hunting the
fish-guys at the end of the episode, and the hospital treats Xander and
the rest of the team members who haven't gotten in touch with their
inner halibuts yet.
Don Sample
"Clairel" <reld...@usa.net> wrote:
> To me, the rating "Good" is synonymous with "would reward rewatching';
> and the rating "Excellent" is synonymous with "infinitely rewatchable,
> infinitely rewarding, un embarras de richesse."
>
> Do others here who have been fans for a long time feel the same way
> about episode quality and rewatchability?
>
> Clairel
Well, yes, but there isn't a single Buffy episode that doesn't reward
rewatching. There are a couple that I don't care for parts of, but
there isn't a single Buffy episode that doesn't have something more for
you to notice when you watch it again.
jil...@hotmail.com
government gets involved sometimes.
Clairel
Don Sample wrote:
> In article <1140934963.2...@t39g2000cwt.googlegroups.com>,
> "Clairel" <reld...@usa.net> wrote:
>
> > To me, the rating "Good" is synonymous with "would reward rewatching';
> > and the rating "Excellent" is synonymous with "infinitely rewatchable,
> > infinitely rewarding, un embarras de richesse."
> >
> > Do others here who have been fans for a long time feel the same way
> > about episode quality and rewatchability?
> >
> > Clairel
>
> Well, yes, but there isn't a single Buffy episode that doesn't reward
> rewatching. There are a couple that I don't care for parts of, but
> there isn't a single Buffy episode that doesn't have something more for
> you to notice when you watch it again.
--I agree every episode has some little thing. For example, KBD has
the great Angelus-Xander scene in the hospital corridor. I love that
one scene, even though Der Kindestod and all that stuff bore me
completely.
But what I meant in my previous post was -- if an episode has LOTS of
things that are rewatchable, and remains interesting to rewatch AS A
WHOLE STORY, *then* it's "Good" or "Excellent."
Do you all see what I mean?
Clairel
Don Sample
"jil...@hotmail.com" <jil...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The episode also showed, again like with invisible Marcy, that the
> government gets involved sometimes.
This time it was all the local civic government, not the feds. (Or guys
claiming to be feds.)
Mike Zeares
Clairel wrote:
> To me, the rating "Good" is synonymous with "would reward rewatching';
> and the rating "Excellent" is synonymous with "infinitely rewatchable,
> infinitely rewarding, un embarras de richesse."
>
> Do others here who have been fans for a long time feel the same way
> about episode quality and rewatchability?
I agree with your ratings. I reserve "Good" generally for eps that I
rewatch a lot and don't fast-forward through much (sometimes I might if
I'm in a hurry, as opposed to weaker eps where I ff to avoid being put
to sleep). "Excellent" is for the jaw-droppers and tear-jerkers.
There aren't actually that many. Lots of Goods, though.
Objectively, I don't think I could call GF "good." But I love it so
very much, and always enjoy rewatching it. I laugh at all the stupid
fish jokes every time (I'm easy that way). So it gets a Good from me
for sentimental reasons. It's all subjective anyway, so who cares what
anybody rates it?
-- Mike Zeares
Daniel Damouth
news:1140934963.2...@t39g2000cwt.googlegroups.com:
[...]
> To me, the rating "Good" is synonymous with "would reward
> rewatching'; and the rating "Excellent" is synonymous with
> "infinitely rewatchable, infinitely rewarding, un embarras de
> richesse."
>
> Do others here who have been fans for a long time feel the same
> way about episode quality and rewatchability?
I agree that rewatchability is the crux of quality. That's one reason
why a first time reviewier's ratings are not particularly valuable.
-Dan Damouth
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Season Two, Episode 20: "Go Fish"
Husband and wife, just for trivia. Their background was in sitcoms, I
believe.
> I can't help but
> notice, though, that his bravery tends to coincide quite a bit with how
> much Buffy needs him. Funny, that...
Cordelia's noticed too, don't forget.
> So, how do you guys feel about the fish-swimmers being allowed to go
> home at the end? Do they deserve worse, or are they just victims?
I vote for victims. They presumably didn't ask to be turned into fish
guys.
> One-sentence summary: Light and pleasant, matches nicely with a white
> zinfandel.
Back in S2, the newsgroup reaction to this episode had a lot of, "What
the hell was that?" There was some real indignation that such a piece
of fluff would air right before the first part of the finale (I think
we knew at that point that the finale was a 2-parter). Granted, the
episode does nothing to bring along the Angel arc. It does show Buffy
trying to get into date mode. She just picked the wrong guy. Or he
picked the wrong girl-who-can-break-every-bone-in-his-body. Anyway,
the point is there was some movement in the character arcs. It still
winds up on many Worst Ever lists. Needless to say, the people who
didn't appreciate its placement in the season didn't care for the humor
very much.
I don't care. I love it. I know objectively it's really not one of
the series' best, but I don't care. I said once that I love it like an
ugly baby that's mine.
I just Googled myself on this episode. You might find this exchange I
had with David Hines (who posted reviews similar to yours) regarding
Cordy's soliloquy interesting:
********block quote*************
[Hines]
>Cordelia is the *least* developed of all the characters on the show.
>Recent episodes have seen some effort to bring her past that --
>"Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered" and "Killed by Death" especially
>-- so to see her being played for the same pointless, unfunny,
>unimaginative yuks is disheartening, to say the least. Cordelia
>didn't get *one single solid honest moment* in the entire episode.
>Just like last week.
[me]
It really is disappointing, because TPTB are skirting dangerously close
to having an un-likable main character, IMHO.
***********block quote************************
Heh. Hoisted on my own google-petard. Actually, I have a lot of "I
said WHAT?" reactions when I google my old posts. Which is why I don't
do it much. I much prefer my misty water-colored hindsight.
-- Mike Zeares
alphakitten
Don Sample wrote:
> In article <1140934963.2...@t39g2000cwt.googlegroups.com>,
> "Clairel" <reld...@usa.net> wrote:
>
>
>>To me, the rating "Good" is synonymous with "would reward rewatching';
>>and the rating "Excellent" is synonymous with "infinitely rewatchable,
>>infinitely rewarding, un embarras de richesse."
>>
>>Do others here who have been fans for a long time feel the same way
>>about episode quality and rewatchability?
>>
>>Clairel
>
>
> Well, yes, but there isn't a single Buffy episode that doesn't reward
> rewatching. There are a couple that I don't care for parts of, but
> there isn't a single Buffy episode that doesn't have something more for
> you to notice when you watch it again.
>
Exactly. And I would say the same for AtS, although *slightly* less
passionately.
~Angel
alphakitten
>
> Some people think it was a gang rape. I think they were just eating him.
But they'd already eaten. And boys have *other* needs...
~Angel
KenM47
Well, there is that as a follow up to IOHEFY, Buffy is kind of back to
bubbly and seemingly less depressed. So, the forgiveness thing is
working out.
Ken (Brooklyn)
KenM47
But I get Clairel here. This ep is kind of ho hum. Doesn't really
excite or amuse all that much. It's filler until the finale.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Arbitrar Of Quality
> I'm curious to
> know whether rewatchability is a criterion in his rankings, and whether
> he would ever feel like rewatching "Go Fish."
>
> To me, the rating "Good" is synonymous with "would reward rewatching';
> and the rating "Excellent" is synonymous with "infinitely rewatchable,
> infinitely rewarding, un embarras de richesse."
>
> Do others here who have been fans for a long time feel the same way
> about episode quality and rewatchability?
I can see that, although it hasn't really factored in to my ratings.
Just because when I re-watch anything I always try to put myself into
the mind of a first-time viewer. So for example, I feel like watching
"Lie To Me" again and can see why something like "The Dark Age" woud be
less fun the second time now that I know what' the story and character
motivations are. But if I were actaully watching TDA again I'd try to
appreciate it from the perspective of someone who's still gradually
learning the story. I tend to think that the episodes I like are the
ones I'd enjoy re-watching.
Like Mike, I'd definately watch GF again. The fun episodes (as long as
they don't get too dumb) are easy to see multiple times.
-AOQ
arnold kim
"kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:1140934210.8...@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> Wentworth Miller? Holy cow! Wentworth Miller! I had never noticed.
> Cool! Gives Prison Break a whole new resonance. Well, not really, but
> cool anyway.
Also features a bit part played by Shane West ("ER", "League of
Extraordinary Gentlemen" "A Walk to Remember").
And is it me, or does the guy who got his nose busted by Buffy look an awful
lot like the doctor from Firefly? I thought they were the same actor but
apparently the IMDB disagrees with me.
Arnold Kim
drifter
> To me, the rating "Good" is synonymous with "would reward rewatching';
> and the rating "Excellent" is synonymous with "infinitely rewatchable,
> infinitely rewarding, un embarras de richesse."
>
> Do others here who have been fans for a long time feel the same way
> about episode quality and rewatchability?
Not sure I should Rot13 this, but just in case:
"Gur Obql." VZB, bar bs gur orfg rcvfbqrf bs gur ragver frevrf.
Ubjrire, erjngpunovyvgl, sbe zr, vf ybj, fvapr vg gnxrf zr fb sbeprshyyl
onpx gb gur qnl zl bja zbgure qvrq. V'ir jngpurq vg znlor 4 gvzrf, naq gur
ynfg gvzr jvgu gur pbzzragnel ba, gb gnxr gur rqtr bss n yvggyr ovg.
Bgure guna guvf, gubhtu, lbhe tbbq-rdhnyf-erjngpunoyr jbexf jryy.
Man, Rot13 just looks goofy.
--
Kel
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own."
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Back in S2, the newsgroup reaction to this episode had a lot of, "What
> the hell was that?" There was some real indignation that such a piece
> of fluff would air right before the first part of the finale (I think
> we knew at that point that the finale was a 2-parter). Granted, the
> episode does nothing to bring along the Angel arc.
> Needless to say, the people who
> didn't appreciate its placement in the season didn't care for the humor
> very much.
Bah. Season placement is just an excuse, mostly. If an episode
strikes one as good, one will enjoy it. You don't see the masses who
(inexplicably) love 3B complaining about it being practically right
between "Innocence" and "Passion."
> I just Googled myself on this episode. You might find this exchange I
> had with David Hines (who posted reviews similar to yours) regarding
> Cordy's soliloquy interesting:
>
> ********block quote*************
> [Hines]
> >Cordelia is the *least* developed of all the characters on the show.
> >Recent episodes have seen some effort to bring her past that --
> >"Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered" and "Killed by Death" especially
> >-- so to see her being played for the same pointless, unfunny,
> >unimaginative yuks is disheartening, to say the least. Cordelia
> >didn't get *one single solid honest moment* in the entire episode.
> >Just like last week.
>
> [me]
> It really is disappointing, because TPTB are skirting dangerously close
>
> to having an un-likable main character, IMHO.
Heh. So what kind of Kool-Aid was it that made you lose your sense?
While I agree with David's general point, I don't with regards to GF,
which i thought did make an effort to do something with Cordelia in
general and the X/C relationship in particular.
-AOQ
~but is it the same David Hines who MSTed "Enterprized/"~
Arbitrar Of Quality
Yeah, there was that line. Then it doesn't look like Buffy fights the
fish for very long before Xander shows up and we go into end-game. And
then the line about how they really love their coach...
-AOQ
kenm47
Do you have any idea why I (a netcom/earthlink user) can only find your
posts on Google Groups and they never show up through my Agent
newsreader? No, I don't have you on a kill filter - I checked.
Ken (Brooklyn)
KenM47
Now I double checked. I did have a kill filter that might have been
broader than it should have been.
Ken (Brooklyn)
One Bit Shy
news:1140934963.2...@t39g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
<snip>
> --My point (see above) is that "good" seems an overly-generous rating
> for a blah episode that I never feel like rewatching and--like
> Ken--have little to say about. I don't hate "Go Fish" the way some
> people do, but it just wasn't very interesting or memorable. Yeah, I
> know, these are AOQ's ratings and nobody else's, but I'm curious to
> know whether rewatchability is a criterion in his rankings, and whether
> he would ever feel like rewatching "Go Fish."
>
> To me, the rating "Good" is synonymous with "would reward rewatching';
> and the rating "Excellent" is synonymous with "infinitely rewatchable,
> infinitely rewarding, un embarras de richesse."
>
> Do others here who have been fans for a long time feel the same way
> about episode quality and rewatchability?
>
> Clairel
>
Rewatching shows greatly affects my impression of their quality. Not always
for the better, though with BtVS I'd say more often than not.
If repeated viewings of an episode draws more from it, then that probably is
an indicator of quality in the sense of providing lasting pleasure rather
than short term. However, there are a couple of problems with that. The
reason for more to be drawn out of the episode is often due to later
revelation that makes you go back and re-evaluate. That's not necessarily
due to any original planning in the earlier episode. And can be kind of
arbitrary. Even fickle. So the revealed quality may not be anything
inherent to the show's quality - may not even improve the impression of the
show - yet still sends you back to look. Also, the process of drawing out
the hidden "strengths" of a show might also be described as fixing its
problems. First impressions count too.
Then there's the matter of going back (or not going back) to a show for
other reasons. Maybe you find it pivotal to the arc, but not especially
good. You may need to watch it multiple times anyway. Or maybe the
emotional resonance is great, but very difficult - not the kind to routinely
watch. Or maybe the show is just easy on the eyes and gets watched a lot to
pass the time - which is a good quality, but not proportionate to the
frequency.
So I'd consider rewatchability an indicator of quality, but not always
reliable. I'll still generally rate according to my current understanding
of the episode without regard to frequency of watching - with a few notable
exceptions where the frequency is at a level that can't be ignored. But
I'll also note when I think more or less of it now than I did then.
OBS
Mel
drifter wrote:
V srry gur fnzr jnl nobhg gur Natry rcvfbqr "Fyrrc Gvtug." Vg vf, vzb,
gur fnqqrfg rcvfbqr bs gur frevrf. V nyjnlf trg puvyyf jura V frr gung
cbegny pybfr. Vg'f abg fbzrguvat V'q rire erjngpu hayrff V'z erjngpuvat
gur ragver frnfba; vg pna'g rknpgyl or yrsg bhg.
Yeah, it does look silly. But it serves its purpose :-)
Mel
vmac...@yahoo.com
I always assumed gang...spawning myself (not sure what to call it,
their being fish-creatures and not of a human mind...). Kind of a bad
bit of payback for the coach's cavalier attitude with his boys and
their dates.
VMacek
vmac...@yahoo.com
>From moment one this episode knows >where it's going: we're doing comedy, or at >least fun.
I never got much of a funnish vibe out of this one, outside of its
ludicrous-in-a-good-way premise, but given the mood of the surrounding
episodes, it may seem downright giddy by comparison. I'll have to watch
it again.
Certainly one great funny moment has to be Xander who, right after the
'one for the ladies' speedo shot, sees the girls there and goes into a
horrified crouch, covering himself with a paddleboard.
VMacek
Espen Schjønberg
> Wentworth Miller? Holy cow! Wentworth Miller! I had never noticed.
> Cool! Gives Prison Break a whole new resonance. Well, not really, but
> cool anyway.
Well, it doesn't count as a spoiler to point to this clip being used a
lot in later credits? I think entire season three, possible even
further. So, you didn't notice before now? Shock.
What he said in interviews about this?
--
Espen
KenM47
Whatever you're talking about, I never noticed. :-)
Ken (Brooklyn)
William George Ferguson
Ok, Damouth, Zeares, even Roazie poked her head in at one point, I've got
to say, AoQ has definitely had a positive impact on the newsgroup. (jeez,
who's next? Hines? Pusateri? Mickey DuPree?)
--
HERBERT
1996 - 1997
Beloved Mascot
Delightful Meal
He fed the Pack
A little
Joseph S. Powell, III
Ummmm.....isn't that about tantamount to spoilers concerning who shot J.R.
from Dallas, or that Marsha's nose got swollen by getting hit with a
football on the Brady Bunch?
Would it be a spoiler if I said that at the end of Season 3, Angel would
leave Sunnydale to go to L.A. and get his own show?
It's just that after an ep has gotten a certain age, it doesn't seem to
warrant concern regarding spoilers - it's kind of like someone getting upset
if they read that Spock dies at the end of Star Trek 2 and comes back to
life in Star Trek 3....
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1140928226.1...@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
threads.
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> I can see that, although it hasn't really factored in to my ratings.
> Just because when I re-watch anything I always try to put myself into
> the mind of a first-time viewer.
I often do that too. Doesn't always work, and sometimes it's more
enjoyable when you know what's coming and can watch for little things
that you missed the first time. The best episodes are great every time
you watch them, no matter how well you know them. There are some where
I could practically recreate the scripts from memory, scene by scene.
I also watch eps without regard to anything that comes later that might
change the meaning of events within a particular episode. I do that
with movies too. Spock's death hits me every time. Although I'll
admit it's hard to watch Leia kiss Luke in TESB.
> Like Mike, I'd definately watch GF again. The fun episodes (as long as
> they don't get too dumb) are easy to see multiple times.
Bad fish puns never get old. If your sense of humor bends that way, of
course. "Wet Dream" is one of my all-time favorite Dr. Demento songs.
-- Mike Zeares
Mike Zeares
Nope. Does your newshost get any posts that are posted through Google?
KenM47
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> Heh. So what kind of Kool-Aid was it that made you lose your sense
My appreciation for early-season Cordelia has grown over time.
Possibly in parallel with my appreciation for Charisma Carpenter.
Which is currently at an all-time high. Anyway, the beats of Cordelia
being self-centered and annoying are now some of my favorite parts of
S1-3. This is one area where I can't watch the show as if I'm seeing
it for the first time.
> While I agree with David's general point, I don't with regards to GF,
> which i thought did make an effort to do something with Cordelia in
> general and the X/C relationship in particular.
The series never quite did anything that David wanted it to do in the
way that he wanted it to do it, except for a few isolated instances (he
was amazed by "Innocence").
> -AOQ
> ~but is it the same David Hines who MSTed "Enterprized/"~
I think so. He did a lot of that kind of stuff.
-- Mike Zeares
Mike Zeares
William George Ferguson wrote:
>
> Ok, Damouth, Zeares, even Roazie poked her head in at one point, I've got
> to say, AoQ has definitely had a positive impact on the newsgroup. (jeez,
> who's next? Hines? Pusateri? Mickey DuPree?)
Heh. Just blind luck on my part.
I've been looking at the number of posts in each AoQ thread. Some are
quite impressive. How long has it been since the group has been this
actively on-topic?
I need to hunt down my Knee-Jerk reviews from S3, so I can repost them.
I think there are only two or three of them -- I never managed to
really do that like I wanted to. Sigh. I just wanted to start big
threads like Hines did every week so everyone would love me.
What? I was needy back then. Besides, the Kibologists already had
the "hate Mike Zeares" angle covered.
-- Mike Zeares
Mike Zeares
Joseph S. Powell, III wrote:
> Ummmm.....isn't that about tantamount to spoilers concerning who shot J.R.
> from Dallas, or that Marsha's nose got swollen by getting hit with a
> football on the Brady Bunch?
AoQ is watching the series for the first time and has therefore
requested that we avoid spoilers for future eps when replying to his
reviews. He knows a few general things, such as the existance of AtS.
This only applies to these threads. It's been kind of fun to watch him
speculate on things that we know are or aren't going to happen.
Anyway, that's why his threads sometimes have a lot of ROT-13 text, as
people want to discuss things that happen later but don't want to spoil
AoQ.
-- Mike Zeares
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
al qaeda terrorism nuclear bomb iran taliban big brother
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
Eric Hunter
>> Don Sample wrote:
>>> "Clairel" <reld...@usa.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> To me, the rating "Good" is synonymous with "would reward
>>>> rewatching'; and the rating "Excellent" is synonymous with
>>>> "infinitely rewatchable, infinitely rewarding, un embarras de
>>>> richesse."
>>>>
>>>> Do others here who have been fans for a long time feel
>>>> the same way about episode quality and rewatchability?
>>>
>>> reward rewatching. There are a couple that I don't care for parts
>>> of, but there isn't a single Buffy episode that doesn't have
>>> something more for you to notice when you watch it again.
>
> excite or amuse all that much. It's filler until the finale.
"Go Fish" is definitely "Buffy-lite" in that it is not
related to the season arc, and it is largely played
for chuckles, if not for laughs. My biggest problem
with it is that I don't see a school nurse, and an old
gym coach being able to combine steroids and
fish-dna in an aerosol compound that would have
any effect on the swim-team, and the heavy-handed
"steroids are bad" message, so I'd probably call it
decent, rather than good. Are my ratings related to
rewatchability? No, I don't think so. Some
outstanding episodes are too painful to watch
again and again, and even ho-hum episodes like
this one have wonderful moments like Cordy
salivating over the new member of the swim team
and then discovering that it is Xander, that are
always worth seeing again.
Eric.
--
Arbitrar Of Quality
> It's just that after an ep has gotten a certain age, it doesn't seem to
> warrant concern regarding spoilers - it's kind of like someone getting upset
> if they read that Spock dies at the end of Star Trek 2 and comes back to
> life in Star Trek 3....
Well, it depends. Is this hypothetical message being posted on a
general Trek discussion forum? Or in direct response to someone saying
something like "I just wanted to say that I just saw STII! Wow!
Anyone else cry? (I haven't seen the rest of the movies yet, so please
don't tell me whether he ever comes back!)?"
Since BTVS has been off the air for a few years, I don't see a need for
a.t.b-v-s posters to mark spoilers (although it'd be nice if people
kept them out of the subject lines...). Whereas if someone (such as,
say, me) starts a thread and makes a *specific request* to leave that
particular thread as spoiler-free as possible, and someone else
deliberately ignores this and spoils the original poster, that someone
else is an asshole, plain and simple.
-AOQ
Rowan Hawthorn
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> Season Two, Episode 20: "Go Fish"
> (or "I am breathing water/I am breathing water/You know a body's
> got to breathe")
> Writers: David Fury and Elin Hampton
> Director: David Semel
>
>>From moment one this episode knows where it's going: we're doing
> comedy, or at least fun.
Yup. It's not deeply moving, not deeply philosophical, not an
award-winner. But it has some really fun scenes, and an homage to one
of my personal favorite cheesy Universal monsters.
> 20) "Go Fish" - Good]
>
No quibble there. My favorite scene: *Willow* drooling over Speedo
Xander right along with Cordelia - and his reaction to their presence.
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Apteryx
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mair_fheal-883A4...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> for some reason i always think of this as a season one episode
Take that back! Season 1 never had anything as weak - well maybe once
(actually I have Go Fish currently ranked as my 111th favourite BtVS
episode, and the worst of Season 1 - Out of Mind, Out of Sight - as
112th)
--
Apteryx
Scythe Matters
> Since their relationship has been built on silly clichés anyway, the
> part where Cordelia reveals the depths of her feelings, not knowing
> that Xander's right there, fits the mold. In this case the reason
> the scene didn't work is that I don't think Carpenter played it
> very well. I can see where it'd be easy to get tripped up trying to
> shift between different levels of sincerity, sometimes from one word to
> the next.
It wasn't her finest moment, and though the gag it sets up is cliché,
it's still mildly amusing.
> AOQ rating: Good
I'd have gone with "decent," but no big deal.
hopelessly devoted
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Two, Episode 20: "Go Fish"
> (or "I am breathing water/I am breathing water/You know a body's
> got to breathe")
> Writers: David Fury and Elin Hampton
> Director: David Semel
>
> >From moment one this episode knows where it's going: we're doing
> lines, but not many really stand out in retrospect. I'll say this,
> though: that light touch that makes the fun moments of BTVS so
> enjoyable to watch? Here and accounted for. This episode "gets
> it." I got a few "does AOQ hate humor or something?" sentiments
> after panning the vile "Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered."
> Well, no, I don't. I just don't think the show is really playing
> to its strengths when it goes for excess farce ("Teacher's Pet,"
> 3B), excess embarrassment ("The Puppet Show," "Reptile Boy"), or
> excess Cordelia (WttH-present). "Go Fish," on the other hand,
> while not being as good as the show's best "fun" episodes like
> "Witch" and "Halloween," is cut from the same cloth. This
> would be a very good thing.
>
> I'm remembering our recent discussion about "Phases" and whether
> Buffy should go out of her way to be all meek and girly. I still say
> all that'd do is lead her into situations where she has a chance to
> get really angry before unloading. And you gotta admit, it's
> satisfying to watch how easily she handles Cameron when merely angry
> rather than homicidal. If she'd waited any longer, he'd have
> gotten hurt a lot worse. But on the flipside, I'm glad to see that
> some are scared away by that kind of behavior. "Man, that girl gives
> me the creeps." As would be expected, and as we should be seeing
> more often. I was actually expecting her to "suspiciously" happen
> to be in the same place as the bodies of kids she'd been seen arguing
> with shortly before their deaths... maybe that's another episode
> waiting to be filmed.
>
> The amusing "high mortality rate" exchange that opens the show also
> leads to the fact that people are (apparently) dying, which would seem
> to be interfere with the mood of lightness. There's a dark
> underbelly to this one (again like "Witch"), between the killing
> and the extent to which the authorities are willing to turn a blind eye
> to he jocks' behavior. But almost anything can be made funny if the
> circumstances are right (good thing the episode sets that mood, given
> that it ends with Buffy coming up with a quip while a character is
> being gang-raped). Let's look at how one of the early gags is put
> together: Buffy comes face-to-face with Snyder and company in full
> school-spirit mode, and is next seen venting about the evils of the
> swim team. We stay focused on her, and we'd expect some sympathy
> given that her anger is justified and that the others had the same
> complaints two scenes earlier. Pan over to the others, who clearly
> have something else on their minds. "So, anything new with you
> guys?" she asks lamely, upon finally noticing. Despite the gruesome
> events, we're in the mood to laugh now. And thus Buffy and Xander
> can amuse us with their tangent about demons with high cholesterol.
> "You're gonna think about that later, mister, and you're gonna
> laugh." Because it's funny.
>
> That's why I'm not going to try not to talk too extensively about
> this episode - is there anything more pointless than explaining a
> joke? It speaks for itself. The rest will be random observations.
>
> Okay, one more general paragraph first: the series of developments that
> put a spin on the monster storyline aren't shocking or anything, but
> I didn't see most of them coming, which keeps things entertaining.
> Drugs are involved, and we have _Angel_ to thank for pointing us in
> that direction? Hmmm. Eviscerated bodies are in fact not the result
> of murder, but of the swimmers getting in touch with their inner fish?
> Didn't see that coming. Coach Marin does a good job of playing one
> stock character before ultimately turning out to be a different (quite
> entertaining) one. Things move along at a nice clip throughout the
> show, a pleasant diversion to keep us from thinking too hard about how
> silly things are getting.
>
> It was a little sad to see Gage get "killed;" he was actually
> turning out to be an interesting character compared to his teammates.
> If you have biased sources of information, his initial distrust of
> Buffy makes sense, and he shows himself capable of rational thought
> once a few things about vampires become clear....
>
> I'd have ended the scene where the nurse dies about fifteen seconds
> earlier, at "you quitter." We get it. If you're not going to
> show the killing, don't prolong the scene.
>
> The _Creature From The Black Lagoon_ references were obvious the moment
> the monster appeared, but not every show could find a way to work in
> _The Blue Lagoon_ too.
>
> Since their relationship has been built on silly clichés anyway, the
> part where Cordelia reveals the depths of her feelings, not knowing
> that Xander's right there, fits the mold. In this case the reason
> the scene didn't work is that I don't think Carpenter played it
> very well. I can see where it'd be easy to get tripped up trying to
> shift between different levels of sincerity, sometimes from one word to
> the next.
>
> hand. We've seen her do stuff like that before. Also, I'm
> continually impressed with her ability to remain flippant under almost
> any circumstances.
>
> Xander: Action Hero makes another appearance, and when he picks
> situations where he's actually capable of helping, does pretty well.
> Speaking of Mr. Gross Emotional Problems, Cordelia seems to think that
> he's doing this to (successfully) impress her. I can't help but
> notice, though, that his bravery tends to coincide quite a bit with how
> much Buffy needs him. Funny, that...
>
> Also, now that the script has given the _characters_ (not just the
> audience) a chance to comment that Brendon isn't exactly hard on the
> eyes, my inner curmudgeon can get back to demanding why no one's
> seemed to noticed this obvious fact before.
>
> So, how do you guys feel about the fish-swimmers being allowed to go
> home at the end? Do they deserve worse, or are they just victims?
>
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> - Anything and everything connected with Willow The Interrogator.
> - "It's a terrible, terrible tragedy. We all feel your pain, Coach. I
> don't know two finer boys than Cameron and... that other one."
>
> That's all I've got today.
>
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Light and pleasant, matches nicely with a white
> zinfandel.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
>
> [Season Two so far:
> 1) "When She Was Bad" - Good
> 2) "Some Assembly Required" - Weak
> 3) "School Hard" - Decent
> 4) "Inca Mummy Girl" - Good
> 5) "Reptile Boy" - Decent
> 6) "Halloween" - Good
> 7) "Lie To Me" - Good
> 8) "The Dark Age" - Good
> 9) "What's My Line (Part One)" - Good
> 10) "What's My Line (Part Two)" - Good
> 11) "Ted" - Excellent
> 12) "Bad Eggs" - Bad
> 13) "Surprise" - Decent
> 14) "Innocence" - Excellent
> 15) "Phases" - Decent
> 16) "Bewitched, Bothered, And Bewildered" - Bad
> 17) "Passion" - Good
> 18) "Killed By Death" - Decent
> 19) "I Only Have Eyes For You" - Good
> 20) "Go Fish" - Good]
It's a little difficult for me to comment on this episode because I've
only seen it (maybe) twice and my tape has been missing for years, but
here it goes......
Go Fish
Xander.
Xander with his shirt off.
Oh, my! Look at those arms.
Christmas list done.
No I don't need it wrapped and I'll tie the bow on myself.
Great ep.
The end.
This is probably the only one that I can't find anywhere. Although
your review does bring back vague memories. Vague because it's been a
long time since I've seen it (and because all I can see is Xander's
arms). Where's that tape?
vmac...@yahoo.com
watcher; takes me back.
Course, it was different for us back then...why, eight years ago, we
could only see one episode a week - if we were *lucky*! We used to
*dream* of seeing one episode after another. But, that did give us time
to eat, sleep, and presumably earn a living. I appreciate the
predicament of the AOQ.
VMacek
Mike Zeares
vmac...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Yeah, I must admit I enjoy catching the reactions of a first-time
> watcher; takes me back.
> Course, it was different for us back then...why, eight years ago, we
> could only see one episode a week - if we were *lucky*!
And then we had to walk uphill 10 miles barefoot through a driving
blizzard to post to the newsgroup. By semaphore!
But we were happier then.
-- Mike Zeares
hopelessly devoted
heee hahah hehe haaaaaaa!