AOQ Review 6-18: "Seeing Red"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Six, Episode 18: "Seeing Red"
(or "There goes my hero/She's ordinary")
Writer: Steven S. DeKnight
Director: Michael Gershman
Okay, I'm considering instituting a policy that any episode with
Alyson Hannigan sheet-clad so suggestively for so often gets an
automatic Good or higher. Buffy's appeal to the hormones has been a
little blunted lately thanks to the bizarre eyesore outfits, but this
may be the tastiest that Willow's looked all series. Just to get all
this crass stuff out of the way, Willow's aforementioned edibility
may explain why Benson is looking kinda chubby this time around,
although still cute. So, they have some exuberant sex, we clumsily
insert the latter into the opening credits just because the ME staffers
are not nice people, and we're off into the land of doom-n-gloom.
So most everyone else is sad and mopey and such. Even Willow and Tara
take a break to ponder the Slayer/Soulless Thing thing in an amusing
moment ("no, I wouldn't go that far"). And note that one of the
former's first reactions is to wonder whether Buffy's told everyone
except her and another is to wonder how Buffy could have hid things
from her this way. Seems like a common reaction. Anya's barely in
this episode, and is back to trying to get wishes, although it seems
more half-hearted now; kind of a dumb scene that runs too long, but it
does have a few good laughs between "who's Anya?" and having her
ultimately interrupt and ignore her new friend at the end. Dawn is
like the spirit of the "shippers" of all kinds here, trying to
nudge everyone towards an ending they can all be satisfied with.
Unfortunately for her, sometimes the shippers are wrong. I got a kick
out of her delirious reaction to seeing the witches get back together.
I don't know if we really need to spend a lot of time on why Xander
considers it his business who Buffy lets put their dick in her. The
vibe seems straightforward to me, given that she's his hero and role
model, and it's important to his sense of self to have her as an
invincible force who relies on him. So, disappointment manifests
itself as anger. I'll single out Nick Brendon for a little extra
praise this time for the way he makes it look like part of him is
regretting letting the hurtful little quips come out even as he can't
stop saying them.
The Geek Trio get a large chunk of screen-time this week, perhaps for
the last time. They've definitely served their purpose. Danny
Strong doing that irritatingly nasal voice for too long at a time while
attempting to make us take the character at all seriously doesn't do
it for me, and the part with the monster skin in particular just goes
on and on. Warren has managed to morph into a respectable villain all
by his lonesome though. Here he develops awesome power, and the first
use he can think of for it is to get even with the kids who picked on
him in eighth grade. The banality and pettiness combined with his
capacity for harm make him about as unpleasant (in a good way)
character as the show has seen in awhile. A very human sort of evil.
The hand of the plot says that it's time to run into Xander, who
might act like a bit of a jerk sometimes, but will in the end stand up
on behalf of good geeks against bad geeks.
And speaking of unpleasant, this brings us to what I'm sure is one of
the most talked about and debated parts of SR, the bathroom encounter
between Buffy and Spike. I feel like the effects of the scene work for
me better than the attempted rape itself, where a few details seem
wrong. But first let's note that clearly something is being done
right: it says something that Mrs. Quality, whom I'm using as my less
nitpicky and more pro-B/S control group, was quite disturbed by this,
yet still in some way wants Spike to somehow find a way to make up for
it. The confusion and such works out, since even Buffy clearly telling
him that she's not interested is only a little bit removed from some
past scenes between these two.
That being said, I'm not sure if this holds together as well as it
should. Like "Dead Things," this feels like an episode that needs
to be digested, and then it'll gradually make more sense. But on
first viewing, a few things bothered me. First of all, I'm not
entirely following the motivations: Spike generally would do anything
rather than hurt Buffy, except when he's in crazy revenge-seeking
mode (as seen last episode, and not so much here). Yeah, looking for
logic in someone who's a slave to wild emotion might be
counterproductive, but I feel like either I'm missing one step or the
writers are. Second, why isn't Buffy fighting harder? We know
she's as strong as he is, even after you factor out the element of
surprise, so lying there weakly squirming and pleading for so long
before finally bothering to kick him across the room doesn't seem to
make sense to me - why hold back? Doesn't quite play right.
Finally, there's the fact that the whole situation is handled in a
way that seems a little more heavy-handed than necessary. Showing that
Spike is evil and that his obsession is dangerous may not require
having him try to force himself on someone, but that's what'll
provoke the strongest knee-jerk reaction. And the imagery of Buffy
guiltily trying to hide her bruises in the followup scenes, when
compounded with her legitimate reasons for being shell-shocked is not
only an extension of that third concern, but it plays up the
Buffy/scared-abuse-victim vibe in a way that I don't think is
helpful. [Essay writers: want to try to show this as an echo of
"Innocence?" It could probably be done.]
Spike seems more like himself in his later exchange with Clem; he seems
to show real moral guilt "what have I done?" and then immediately
retreats from that, changing it to "what has she done to me?" I
think he's like some fans - he likes himself better when he's
unambiguously evil. By this point he's stopped trying to convince
himself that he's still the same Spike as pre-chip, on any level.
But the fear of the effect Buffy's having on him and the desire to go
back to what he was are not new, so this more clearly makes sense. I
assume we'll see him again soon, but giving the character an episode
or two off so late in the season would be pleasantly unusual and
unexpected.
All right, on to the big fight. Liked Buffy not backing down in the
face of invincibility, and Jonathan finding a good way to show his
better colors. The silliness of the rocket packs is worth a big stupid
laugh, especially after The Other One hits the roof. Didn't like
Gellar's helpless stupefied expression watching Warren blast off.
This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
- Seeing how hard a vampire can hit while blowin' in the wind.
"That was rhetorical!"
- The Other One's breakup soliloquy
And there's some healing between Buffy and Xander, whose friendship
yet again takes a licking and keeps on ticking. It seems like their
periods of distance tend to remind them how much they need each
other's support. "I don't know what I'd do... without you and
Wil." "Let's not find out." There's blame that they could
work through and assign, or they could just cling to each other.
Then of course, tragedy strikes. I'm assuming Tara's dead here,
since, well, she looks dead, and V'ir xabja gung fur jbhyqa'g
fheivir Frnfba Fvk fvapr ybat orsber fur jnf rira vagebqhprq (V svtherq
vg'q or va gur svanyr, gub). Again, heart and mind divided. My
critical side ["Apollo," to the serious geeks] is worried that
things have gone a little over the top in terms of calculated misery
for its own sake, with a gun of all things being used to kill a
character just after she gets into a blissfully happy relationship. My
Dionysian side says to get lost in the depression of the moment, and
get all curious about where this'll take Willow. That's what Mrs.
Quality did (her opinion of the episode is that it was so depressing
that she can't say whether she "liked" it or not, and she's
anxious to see the next one... I'd call that a success). In any
case, the sequence is very well put together, with Warren appearing out
of a quiet moment (kinda reminiscent of Glory in the tetra-ultimate
episode of S5), the scene keeping us unclear for as long as possible
about who's been hurt, and the final moment that helps give the
episode its title. It's a big moment, in any case, and paves the way
for more.
So...
One-sentence summary: I have some misgivings, but mostly an important
episode that delivers.
AOQ rating: Good
[Season Six so far:
1) "Bargaining" - Decent
2) "After Life" - Good
3) "Flooded" - Decent
4) "Life Serial" - Good
5) "All The Way" - Good
6) "Once More, With Feeling" - Excellent
7) "Tabula Rasa" - Good
8) "Smashed" - Decent
9) "Wrecked" - Good
10) "Gone" - Decent
11) "Doublemeat Palace" - Decent
12) "Dead Things" - Good
13) "Older And Far Away" - Good
14) "As You Were" - Decent
15) "Hell's Bells" - Weak
16) "Normal Again" - Excellent
17) "Entropy" - Decent
18) "Seeing Red" - Good]
Arbitrar Of Quality
but hopefully civilized discussions, probably mostly about Spike, and
will see y'all Sunday night.
-AOQ
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 18: "Seeing Red"
> (or "There goes my hero/She's ordinary")
> Writer: Steven S. DeKnight
> Director: Michael Gershman
There are a couple of lines in the script for this episode that I wish
that they'd left in the final cut. The first is in the scene where
Willow and Tara are in Tara's bed. After Willow announced that she's
working on her own evil plan, and ducks under the sheets, Tara giggles,
gasps with pleasure, and says "Evil's good!"
Then in the fight with Warren, after Jonathan tells Buffy to smash
Warren's orbs, Buffy kicks Warren in the crotch. Jonathan winces and
says "Not those orbs."
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Rowan Hawthorn
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 18: "Seeing Red"
> (or "There goes my hero/She's ordinary")
> Writer: Steven S. DeKnight
> Director: Michael Gershman
>
> Okay, I'm considering instituting a policy that any episode with
> Alyson Hannigan sheet-clad so suggestively for so often gets an
> automatic Good or higher.
I'll notarize that for you, if you'd like...
> Buffy's appeal to the hormones has been a
> little blunted lately thanks to the bizarre eyesore outfits, but this
> may be the tastiest that Willow's looked all series. Just to get all
> this crass stuff out of the way,
So, who was complaining?
> Dawn is
> like the spirit of the "shippers" of all kinds here, trying to
> nudge everyone towards an ending they can all be satisfied with.
> Unfortunately for her, sometimes the shippers are wrong. I got a kick
> out of her delirious reaction to seeing the witches get back together.
You know, I *do* feel sorry for Dawn sometimes - so many things have
come crashing down around her in such a short time; it must *be* the
bright spot of the last year to have her surrogate mommies back together.
> I'll single out Nick Brendon for a little extra
> praise this time for the way he makes it look like part of him is
> regretting letting the hurtful little quips come out even as he can't
> stop saying them.
Both Nick and Aly do an excellent job of getting under the skin of their
characters.
> And speaking of unpleasant, this brings us to what I'm sure is one of
> the most talked about and debated parts of SR, the bathroom encounter
> between Buffy and Spike.
Aw, you must have peeked...
> Spike seems more like himself in his later exchange with Clem; he seems
> to show real moral guilt "what have I done?" and then immediately
> retreats from that, changing it to "what has she done to me?" I
> think he's like some fans - he likes himself better when he's
> unambiguously evil.
Of course. Most people like their world simple. When things get
complicated, they get... er... complicated...
> All right, on to the big fight. Liked Buffy not backing down in the
> face of invincibility, and Jonathan finding a good way to show his
> better colors. The silliness of the rocket packs is worth a big stupid
> laugh, especially after The Other One hits the roof. Didn't like
> Gellar's helpless stupefied expression watching Warren blast off.
I read that as frustration. I mean, c'mon: would *you* expect the
little jerk to pull something like that out - and it actually *works*?
>
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> - Seeing how hard a vampire can hit while blowin' in the wind.
> "That was rhetorical!"
> - The Other One's breakup soliloquy
He wants Warren *so* bad.
>
> And there's some healing between Buffy and Xander, whose friendship
> yet again takes a licking and keeps on ticking. It seems like their
> periods of distance tend to remind them how much they need each
> other's support. "I don't know what I'd do... without you and
> Wil." "Let's not find out." There's blame that they could
> work through and assign, or they could just cling to each other.
Friends get pissed off at the least thing and never speak to each other
again. *Real* friends work things out.
>
> Then of course, tragedy strikes. I'm assuming Tara's dead here,
> since, well, she looks dead,
She went down like a rock. Not liking the looks of where she was hit,
either.
> Again, heart and mind divided. My
> critical side ["Apollo," to the serious geeks] is worried that
> things have gone a little over the top in terms of calculated misery
> for its own sake, with a gun of all things being used to kill a
> character just after she gets into a blissfully happy relationship.
And, even worse, she wasn't even the target, just a victim of some
pathetic little fool firing blindly behind him as he ran.
> In any
> case, the sequence is very well put together, with Warren appearing out
> of a quiet moment (kinda reminiscent of Glory in the tetra-ultimate
> episode of S5), the scene keeping us unclear for as long as possible
> about who's been hurt, and the final moment that helps give the
> episode its title.
I think I'd not like Willow looking at *me* that way...
> One-sentence summary: I have some misgivings, but mostly an important
> episode that delivers.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
>
I agree.
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> Second, why isn't Buffy fighting harder? We know
> she's as strong as he is, even after you factor out the element of
> surprise, so lying there weakly squirming and pleading for so long
> before finally bothering to kick him across the room doesn't seem to
> make sense to me - why hold back? Doesn't quite play right.
Buffy's not a wrestler. She's a stand back and kick and punch at people
sort of fighter. We almost never see Buffy wrestling, and when we do,
she doesn't do all that well at it. Wrestling is all about leverage and
stuff, and technique can count a lot more than strength.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> considers it his business who Buffy lets put their dick in her. The
because xander can be a jerk
its something we have seen many times in the past
> first viewing, a few things bothered me. First of all, I'm not
> entirely following the motivations: Spike generally would do anything
> rather than hurt Buffy, except when he's in crazy revenge-seeking
the question in clockwork orange is whether you can make person moral
by making them act morally
the answer in the novel and with anya and with spike is no
> writers are. Second, why isn't Buffy fighting harder? We know
because a little bit before she got kicked in the face
and hit a thick tombstone hard enough the break it
slayers heal fast but not instantly
she was drawing a bath to soak the aches
> provoke the strongest knee-jerk reaction. And the imagery of Buffy
> guiltily trying to hide her bruises in the followup scenes, when
i dont think it was guilt as much as she didnt want to get into that
> All right, on to the big fight. Liked Buffy not backing down in the
> face of invincibility, and Jonathan finding a good way to show his
i hope the metaphor of buffy smashing warrens two orbs was plain enough
> better colors. The silliness of the rocket packs is worth a big stupid
> laugh, especially after The Other One hits the roof. Didn't like
> Gellar's helpless stupefied expression watching Warren blast off.
i dont see it as helpless stupeficattion as much exasperation
- how many do i have to beat you down before you give up
> Then of course, tragedy strikes. I'm assuming Tara's dead here,
> since, well, she looks dead, and V'ir xabja gung fur jbhyqa'g
- i am a leaf on the wind
whedon is quite willing to kill major characters like jenny or wash or doyle
to prove the situation is as dire as it seems
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
vague disclaimer
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> - Seeing how hard a vampire can hit while blowin' in the wind.
> "That was rhetorical!"
But setting up the reason Buffy couldn't fight back more effectively.
She hurt her back and was planning a hot soak to ease it. Something
humorous being used to set up something serious, you see?
> And there's some healing between Buffy and Xander, whose friendship
> yet again takes a licking and keeps on ticking. It seems like their
> periods of distance tend to remind them how much they need each
> other's support. "I don't know what I'd do... without you and
> Wil." "Let's not find out." There's blame that they could
> work through and assign, or they could just cling to each other.
>
> Then of course, tragedy strikes. I'm assuming Tara's dead here,
> since, well, she looks dead, and I've known that she wouldn't
> survive Season Six since long before she was even introduced (I figured
> it'd be in the finale, tho). Again, heart and mind divided. My
> critical side ["Apollo," to the serious geeks] is worried that
> things have gone a little over the top in terms of calculated misery
> for its own sake, with a gun of all things being used to kill a
> character just after she gets into a blissfully happy relationship.
Buffy, two or three times in the season has said, re guns: "These
things? Never helpful".
--
Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
vague disclaimer
Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I think I'd not like Willow looking at *me* that way...
Man, that must have been painful to write...
MBangel10 (Melissa)
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 18: "Seeing Red"
> (or "There goes my hero/She's ordinary")
> Writer: Steven S. DeKnight
> Director: Michael Gershman
>
> Okay, I'm considering instituting a policy that any episode with
> Alyson Hannigan sheet-clad so suggestively for so often gets an
> automatic Good or higher. Buffy's appeal to the hormones has been a
> little blunted lately thanks to the bizarre eyesore outfits, but this
> may be the tastiest that Willow's looked all series. Just to get all
> this crass stuff out of the way, Willow's aforementioned edibility
> may explain why Benson is looking kinda chubby this time around,
> although still cute. So, they have some exuberant sex, we clumsily
> insert the latter into the opening credits just because the ME staffers
> are not nice people, and we're off into the land of doom-n-gloom.
No the writers aren't nice people. Poor Tara.
>
> So most everyone else is sad and mopey and such. Even Willow and Tara
> take a break to ponder the Slayer/Soulless Thing thing in an amusing
> moment ("no, I wouldn't go that far"). And note that one of the
> former's first reactions is to wonder whether Buffy's told everyone
> except her and another is to wonder how Buffy could have hid things
> from her this way. Seems like a common reaction. Anya's barely in
> this episode, and is back to trying to get wishes, although it seems
> more half-hearted now; kind of a dumb scene that runs too long, but it
> does have a few good laughs between "who's Anya?" and having her
> ultimately interrupt and ignore her new friend at the end. Dawn is
> like the spirit of the "shippers" of all kinds here, trying to
> nudge everyone towards an ending they can all be satisfied with.
> Unfortunately for her, sometimes the shippers are wrong. I got a kick
> out of her delirious reaction to seeing the witches get back together.
Us crazy shippers... trying to make good on relationships that are
written in the Whedonworld. Yeah, like that ever happens but it's fun to
try.
>
> I don't know if we really need to spend a lot of time on why Xander
> considers it his business who Buffy lets put their dick in her. The
> vibe seems straightforward to me, given that she's his hero and role
> model, and it's important to his sense of self to have her as an
> invincible force who relies on him. So, disappointment manifests
> itself as anger. I'll single out Nick Brendon for a little extra
> praise this time for the way he makes it look like part of him is
> regretting letting the hurtful little quips come out even as he can't
> stop saying them.
I haven't watched SR in a long, long time but I remember wanting to kick
Xander when he went off on Buffy in that scene.
>
<snip>
>
> And speaking of unpleasant, this brings us to what I'm sure is one of
> the most talked about and debated parts of SR, the bathroom encounter
> between Buffy and Spike. I feel like the effects of the scene work for
> me better than the attempted rape itself, where a few details seem
> wrong. But first let's note that clearly something is being done
> right: it says something that Mrs. Quality, whom I'm using as my less
> nitpicky and more pro-B/S control group, was quite disturbed by this,
> yet still in some way wants Spike to somehow find a way to make up for
> it. The confusion and such works out, since even Buffy clearly telling
> him that she's not interested is only a little bit removed from some
> past scenes between these two.
Many an essay has been written from both perspectives on this one. Heck,
even as recently as last month there was a big to-do made on a popular
blog about this scene. Also, if you go back to the beginning of your
reviews and you see the word "rape" thrown out there in responses to
posts that had nothing to do with it but for some reason was discussing
Spike, well, this is the episode that did it. Some people find it hard
to distinguish this moment as one that happened on a fantasy TV show w/
a soulless vampire and a Slayer and instead, insist on looking at it
through an RL perspective with Spike the date rapist and Buffy the
helpless victim. The way it was acted w/ Buffy not using her real
strength against him until she finally kicked him off only added fuel to
the fire. Some go so far to say that if you have any sympathy for
Spike's reaction and his running out the bathroom door, then you must
condone RL rape. It's gotten a bit crazy over the years.
>
> That being said, I'm not sure if this holds together as well as it
> should. Like "Dead Things," this feels like an episode that needs
> to be digested, and then it'll gradually make more sense. But on
> first viewing, a few things bothered me. First of all, I'm not
> entirely following the motivations: Spike generally would do anything
> rather than hurt Buffy, except when he's in crazy revenge-seeking
> mode (as seen last episode, and not so much here). Yeah, looking for
> logic in someone who's a slave to wild emotion might be
> counterproductive, but I feel like either I'm missing one step or the
> writers are.
That's the thing, Spike didn't truly realize that he was hurting Buffy
until she kicked him across the room. His was an act of pure desperation
- wanting to make Buffy "feel" love for him while using the only thing
that he knew she ever responded to with him, sex. The moment he realizes
that he took it too far, and his response "Buffy, I didn't..." was after
she had to use force to stop him. Spike has no moral compass, he doesn't
"get" it until that moment and then what does he do? He runs away
(clearly shamed).
>Second, why isn't Buffy fighting harder? We know
> she's as strong as he is, even after you factor out the element of
> surprise, so lying there weakly squirming and pleading for so long
> before finally bothering to kick him across the room doesn't seem to
> make sense to me - why hold back? Doesn't quite play right.
This is one of those times the writers try to push out the thought that
Buffy is the Slayer and make us see her as the helpless victim to add to
the element of shock that we as viewers are to feel after the scene.
They are both humanized to the extreme in order for the attempted rape
to come across with the heavy fist pounding to all of our heads that
Spike IS still monster and this is why Buffy could never have a real
relationship with him as he is.
> Finally, there's the fact that the whole situation is handled in a
> way that seems a little more heavy-handed than necessary. Showing that
> Spike is evil and that his obsession is dangerous may not require
> having him try to force himself on someone, but that's what'll
> provoke the strongest knee-jerk reaction. And the imagery of Buffy
> guiltily trying to hide her bruises in the followup scenes, when
> compounded with her legitimate reasons for being shell-shocked is not
> only an extension of that third concern, but it plays up the
> Buffy/scared-abuse-victim vibe in a way that I don't think is
> helpful. [Essay writers: want to try to show this as an echo of
> "Innocence?" It could probably be done.]
I agree, although I have to say that when she hid the bruise, my heart
did go out to her even though I knew she could have clobbered Spike as
soon as he touched her robe. You mentioned shell-shocked and for me, the
only way that the bathroom scene works in my mind is that Buffy was
shell-shocked from the moment Spike attacked her and that's why she
waited so long to fight back, she just couldn't believe it was happening.
>
> Spike seems more like himself in his later exchange with Clem; he seems
> to show real moral guilt "what have I done?" and then immediately
> retreats from that, changing it to "what has she done to me?" I
> think he's like some fans - he likes himself better when he's
> unambiguously evil. By this point he's stopped trying to convince
> himself that he's still the same Spike as pre-chip, on any level.
> But the fear of the effect Buffy's having on him and the desire to go
> back to what he was are not new, so this more clearly makes sense. I
> assume we'll see him again soon, but giving the character an episode
> or two off so late in the season would be pleasantly unusual and
> unexpected.
As with all the characters this season, Spike is also battling his
(literal) inner demon. He can't be a vampire, and he can't be a man.
Which one does he want to be more?
>
> All right, on to the big fight. Liked Buffy not backing down in the
> face of invincibility, and Jonathan finding a good way to show his
> better colors. The silliness of the rocket packs is worth a big stupid
> laugh, especially after The Other One hits the roof. Didn't like
> Gellar's helpless stupefied expression watching Warren blast off.
The trio's special weapon? A pair of orbs... that Buffy crushes. She
ain't gonna be a victim any more.
>
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> - Seeing how hard a vampire can hit while blowin' in the wind.
> "That was rhetorical!"
> - The Other One's breakup soliloquy
>
> And there's some healing between Buffy and Xander, whose friendship
> yet again takes a licking and keeps on ticking. It seems like their
> periods of distance tend to remind them how much they need each
> other's support. "I don't know what I'd do... without you and
> Wil." "Let's not find out." There's blame that they could
> work through and assign, or they could just cling to each other.
The talk outside, I didn't want to kick Xander any more after that.
>
> Then of course, tragedy strikes. I'm assuming Tara's dead here,
> since, well, she looks dead, and V'ir xabja gung fur jbhyqa'g
> fheivir Frnfba Fvk fvapr ybat orsber fur jnf rira vagebqhprq (V svtherq
> vg'q or va gur svanyr, gub). Again, heart and mind divided. My
> critical side ["Apollo," to the serious geeks] is worried that
> things have gone a little over the top in terms of calculated misery
> for its own sake, with a gun of all things being used to kill a
> character just after she gets into a blissfully happy relationship. My
> Dionysian side says to get lost in the depression of the moment, and
> get all curious about where this'll take Willow. That's what Mrs.
> Quality did (her opinion of the episode is that it was so depressing
> that she can't say whether she "liked" it or not, and she's
> anxious to see the next one... I'd call that a success). In any
> case, the sequence is very well put together, with Warren appearing out
> of a quiet moment (kinda reminiscent of Glory in the tetra-ultimate
> episode of S5), the scene keeping us unclear for as long as possible
> about who's been hurt, and the final moment that helps give the
> episode its title. It's a big moment, in any case, and paves the way
> for more.
That end scene was pretty powerful stuff. Where this will lead Willow is
a darn good question.
>
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: I have some misgivings, but mostly an important
> episode that delivers.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
>
I agree, although it's a hard episode to watch because it's just so damn
disturbing.
BTR1701
vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
"You know Buffy-- sweet girl, not that bright."
Ken from Chicago
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1156486738.4...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 18: "Seeing Red"
> (or "There goes my hero/She's ordinary")
> Writer: Steven S. DeKnight
> Director: Michael Gershman
>
> Okay, I'm considering instituting a policy that any episode with
> Alyson Hannigan sheet-clad so suggestively for so often gets an
> automatic Good or higher. Buffy's appeal to the hormones has been a
> little blunted lately thanks to the bizarre eyesore outfits, but this
> may be the tastiest that Willow's looked all series. Just to get all
It began with "Gone", the scene of her by herself on the street tracking
down the invisible hydrant--while she has the long flowing silky crimson red
hair.
> this crass stuff out of the way, Willow's aforementioned edibility
> may explain why Benson is looking kinda chubby this time around,
> although still cute. So, they have some exuberant sex, we clumsily
> insert the latter into the opening credits just because the ME staffers
> are not nice people, and we're off into the land of doom-n-gloom.
>
> So most everyone else is sad and mopey and such. Even Willow and Tara
> take a break to ponder the Slayer/Soulless Thing thing in an amusing
> moment ("no, I wouldn't go that far"). And note that one of the
> former's first reactions is to wonder whether Buffy's told everyone
> except her and another is to wonder how Buffy could have hid things
> from her this way. Seems like a common reaction. Anya's barely in
> this episode, and is back to trying to get wishes, although it seems
> more half-hearted now; kind of a dumb scene that runs too long, but it
> does have a few good laughs between "who's Anya?" and having her
> ultimately interrupt and ignore her new friend at the end. Dawn is
> like the spirit of the "shippers" of all kinds here, trying to
> nudge everyone towards an ending they can all be satisfied with.
> Unfortunately for her, sometimes the shippers are wrong. I got a kick
> out of her delirious reaction to seeing the witches get back together.
Especially Biley shippers (or heaven forfend, Barker shippers).
> I don't know if we really need to spend a lot of time on why Xander
> considers it his business who Buffy lets put their dick in her. The
> vibe seems straightforward to me, given that she's his hero and role
> model, and it's important to his sense of self to have her as an
> invincible force who relies on him. So, disappointment manifests
> itself as anger. I'll single out Nick Brendon for a little extra
> praise this time for the way he makes it look like part of him is
> regretting letting the hurtful little quips come out even as he can't
> stop saying them.
It demonstrates why Buffy didn't turn to her "good friends" early on.
> The Geek Trio get a large chunk of screen-time this week, perhaps for
> the last time. They've definitely served their purpose. Danny
> Strong doing that irritatingly nasal voice for too long at a time while
> attempting to make us take the character at all seriously doesn't do
> it for me, and the part with the monster skin in particular just goes
> on and on. Warren has managed to morph into a respectable villain all
> by his lonesome though. Here he develops awesome power, and the first
> use he can think of for it is to get even with the kids who picked on
> him in eighth grade. The banality and pettiness combined with his
> capacity for harm make him about as unpleasant (in a good way)
> character as the show has seen in awhile. A very human sort of evil.
> The hand of the plot says that it's time to run into Xander, who
> might act like a bit of a jerk sometimes, but will in the end stand up
> on behalf of good geeks against bad geeks.
"Bad" geeks"?
> And speaking of unpleasant, this brings us to what I'm sure is one of
> the most talked about and debated parts of SR, the bathroom encounter
> between Buffy and Spike. I feel like the effects of the scene work for
> me better than the attempted rape itself, where a few details seem
> wrong. But first let's note that clearly something is being done
> right: it says something that Mrs. Quality, whom I'm using as my less
> nitpicky and more pro-B/S control group, was quite disturbed by this,
> yet still in some way wants Spike to somehow find a way to make up for
> it. The confusion and such works out, since even Buffy clearly telling
> him that she's not interested is only a little bit removed from some
> past scenes between these two.
Rose, former regular ATBVS poster and S/B shipper, posted it would have more
characteristic of the show if Spike had tried to TURN Buffy to end her pain.
Maybe take her to the Trials and regain her soul so they can fight the
forces of darkness using the forces of darkness--together ... forever.
> That being said, I'm not sure if this holds together as well as it
> should. Like "Dead Things," this feels like an episode that needs
> to be digested, and then it'll gradually make more sense. But on
> first viewing, a few things bothered me. First of all, I'm not
> entirely following the motivations: Spike generally would do anything
> rather than hurt Buffy, except when he's in crazy revenge-seeking
> mode (as seen last episode, and not so much here). Yeah, looking for
> logic in someone who's a slave to wild emotion might be
> counterproductive, but I feel like either I'm missing one step or the
> writers are. Second, why isn't Buffy fighting harder? We know
Characters sacrificed on the altar of plot, much?
> she's as strong as he is, even after you factor out the element of
> surprise, so lying there weakly squirming and pleading for so long
> before finally bothering to kick him across the room doesn't seem to
> make sense to me - why hold back? Doesn't quite play right.
Buffy fought a vamp in a cemetary. During the fight she thrown on top of
headstone, so it cracks. While Buffy wins, her back is damaged.
> Finally, there's the fact that the whole situation is handled in a
> way that seems a little more heavy-handed than necessary. Showing that
> Spike is evil and that his obsession is dangerous may not require
> having him try to force himself on someone, but that's what'll
> provoke the strongest knee-jerk reaction. And the imagery of Buffy
> guiltily trying to hide her bruises in the followup scenes, when
> compounded with her legitimate reasons for being shell-shocked is not
> only an extension of that third concern, but it plays up the
> Buffy/scared-abuse-victim vibe in a way that I don't think is
> helpful. [Essay writers: want to try to show this as an echo of
> "Innocence?" It could probably be done.]
>
> Spike seems more like himself in his later exchange with Clem; he seems
> to show real moral guilt "what have I done?" and then immediately
> retreats from that, changing it to "what has she done to me?" I
> think he's like some fans - he likes himself better when he's
> unambiguously evil. By this point he's stopped trying to convince
Black or white, good or evil, that's easier. It's that gray middle, that's
very hard for people--or even monsters--to deal with.
> himself that he's still the same Spike as pre-chip, on any level.
> But the fear of the effect Buffy's having on him and the desire to go
> back to what he was are not new, so this more clearly makes sense. I
> assume we'll see him again soon, but giving the character an episode
> or two off so late in the season would be pleasantly unusual and
> unexpected.
>
> All right, on to the big fight. Liked Buffy not backing down in the
> face of invincibility, and Jonathan finding a good way to show his
> better colors. The silliness of the rocket packs is worth a big stupid
> laugh, especially after The Other One hits the roof. Didn't like
> Gellar's helpless stupefied expression watching Warren blast off.
Well, it's not every day you see a genuine jetpack--despite They having
promised us jetpacks in the 21st century! No jetpack, flying car or even
monorail. At least we have robocars--if only in prototype form.
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> - Seeing how hard a vampire can hit while blowin' in the wind.
> "That was rhetorical!"
> - The Other One's breakup soliloquy
Andrew definitely is good minion material. I could easily see him working
for the Monarch, Underbite or even Phantom Limb.
> And there's some healing between Buffy and Xander, whose friendship
> yet again takes a licking and keeps on ticking. It seems like their
> periods of distance tend to remind them how much they need each
> other's support. "I don't know what I'd do... without you and
> Wil." "Let's not find out." There's blame that they could
> work through and assign, or they could just cling to each other.
>
> Then of course, tragedy strikes. I'm assuming Tara's dead here,
> since, well, she looks dead, and V'ir xabja gung fur jbhyqa'g
> fheivir Frnfba Fvk fvapr ybat orsber fur jnf rira vagebqhprq (V svtherq
> vg'q or va gur svanyr, gub). Again, heart and mind divided. My
Um, why are you hiding spoilers from yourself?
> critical side ["Apollo," to the serious geeks] is worried that
Greek god of thinking and logic, tho he's known more for the Sun aspect
(when he's not fighting or training Rocky or flying vipers from the
Galactica or seducing officers from the Enterprise). The female counterpart,
Athena, is known more for the thinking and crafts part.
> things have gone a little over the top in terms of calculated misery
> for its own sake, with a gun of all things being used to kill a
> character just after she gets into a blissfully happy relationship. My
> Dionysian side says to get lost in the depression of the moment, and
The over emotional life of the party--when not 3 sheets to the wind.
> get all curious about where this'll take Willow. That's what Mrs.
> Quality did (her opinion of the episode is that it was so depressing
> that she can't say whether she "liked" it or not, and she's
> anxious to see the next one... I'd call that a success). In any
> case, the sequence is very well put together, with Warren appearing out
> of a quiet moment (kinda reminiscent of Glory in the tetra-ultimate
> episode of S5), the scene keeping us unclear for as long as possible
> about who's been hurt, and the final moment that helps give the
> episode its title. It's a big moment, in any case, and paves the way
> for more.
Forget Banner, don't make Willow angry.
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: I have some misgivings, but mostly an important
> episode that delivers.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
>
> [Season Six so far:
> 1) "Bargaining" - Decent
> 2) "After Life" - Good
> 3) "Flooded" - Decent
> 4) "Life Serial" - Good
> 5) "All The Way" - Good
> 6) "Once More, With Feeling" - Excellent
> 7) "Tabula Rasa" - Good
> 8) "Smashed" - Decent
> 9) "Wrecked" - Good
> 10) "Gone" - Decent
> 11) "Doublemeat Palace" - Decent
> 12) "Dead Things" - Good
> 13) "Older And Far Away" - Good
> 14) "As You Were" - Decent
> 15) "Hell's Bells" - Weak
> 16) "Normal Again" - Excellent
> 17) "Entropy" - Decent
> 18) "Seeing Red" - Good]
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mair_fheal-511FE...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
>> I don't know if we really need to spend a lot of time on why Xander
>> considers it his business who Buffy lets put their dick in her. The
>
> because xander can be a jerk
> its something we have seen many times in the past
Ask Angel.
>> first viewing, a few things bothered me. First of all, I'm not
>> entirely following the motivations: Spike generally would do anything
>> rather than hurt Buffy, except when he's in crazy revenge-seeking
>
> the question in clockwork orange is whether you can make person moral
> by making them act morally
> the answer in the novel and with anya and with spike is no
>
>> writers are. Second, why isn't Buffy fighting harder? We know
>
> because a little bit before she got kicked in the face
> and hit a thick tombstone hard enough the break it
>
> slayers heal fast but not instantly
> she was drawing a bath to soak the aches
>
>> provoke the strongest knee-jerk reaction. And the imagery of Buffy
>> guiltily trying to hide her bruises in the followup scenes, when
>
> i dont think it was guilt as much as she didnt want to get into that
>
>> All right, on to the big fight. Liked Buffy not backing down in the
>> face of invincibility, and Jonathan finding a good way to show his
>
> i hope the metaphor of buffy smashing warrens two orbs was plain enough
>
>> better colors. The silliness of the rocket packs is worth a big stupid
>> laugh, especially after The Other One hits the roof. Didn't like
>> Gellar's helpless stupefied expression watching Warren blast off.
>
> i dont see it as helpless stupeficattion as much exasperation
> - how many do i have to beat you down before you give up
More resigned frustration and fatigue.
>> Then of course, tragedy strikes. I'm assuming Tara's dead here,
>> since, well, she looks dead, and V'ir xabja gung fur jbhyqa'g
>
> - i am a leaf on the wind
> whedon is quite willing to kill major characters like jenny or wash or
> doyle
> to prove the situation is as dire as it seems
See how he soars.
> arf meow arf - nsa fodder
> ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
> if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
-- Ken from Chicago
Elisi
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 18: "Seeing Red"
> (or "There goes my hero/She's ordinary")
> Writer: Steven S. DeKnight
> Director: Michael Gershman
> I don't know if we really need to spend a lot of time on why Xander
> considers it his business who Buffy lets put their dick in her. The
> vibe seems straightforward to me, given that she's his hero and role
> model, and it's important to his sense of self to have her as an
> invincible force who relies on him. So, disappointment manifests
> itself as anger. I'll single out Nick Brendon for a little extra
> praise this time for the way he makes it look like part of him is
> regretting letting the hurtful little quips come out even as he can't
> stop saying them.
I recently re-watched 'Revelations' and _My God_ but Xander is an ass!
Not to mention 'Prophecy Girl':
Xander: Nah. Forget it. (gets up) I'm not him. I mean, I guess a guy's
gotta be undead to make time with you.
Buffy: That's really harsh.
Xander: Look, I'm sorry. I don't handle rejection well. Funny!
Considering all the practice I've had, huh?
He *really* has issues with the undead! And remember how much he wanted
Buffy to get Riley to stay? He moved from wanting to date her, to
becoming her surrogate 'older brother', looking out for her. Except she
never really agreed to that...
> And speaking of unpleasant, this brings us to what I'm sure is one of
> the most talked about and debated parts of SR, the bathroom encounter
> between Buffy and Spike.
No kidding. It's usually referred to as 'The AR' , which is a handy
abbrevation - trust me.
> I feel like the effects of the scene work for
> me better than the attempted rape itself, where a few details seem
> wrong. But first let's note that clearly something is being done
> right: it says something that Mrs. Quality, whom I'm using as my less
> nitpicky and more pro-B/S control group, was quite disturbed by this,
> yet still in some way wants Spike to somehow find a way to make up for
> it. The confusion and such works out, since even Buffy clearly telling
> him that she's not interested is only a little bit removed from some
> past scenes between these two.
> Spike generally would do anything
> rather than hurt Buffy, except when he's in crazy revenge-seeking
> mode (as seen last episode, and not so much here). Yeah, looking for
> logic in someone who's a slave to wild emotion might be
> counterproductive, but I feel like either I'm missing one step or the
> writers are.
I'm glad you picked up on the:
Spike: "I don't hurt _you_!"
Buffy: "I know."
from Entropy, because I think that's very important. After all they've
done to each other during their relationship, Buffy considers none of
Spike's deeds of it to have been intentionally hurtful. But...
>From the 'Dead Things' balcony scene:
Buffy: "Don't..."
Spike: Stop me."
>From AYW:
BUFFY: No! Not here.
SPIKE: Why not? (pouting)
<snip>
BUFFY: (sighs) Spike, I mean it. Come on.
SPIKE: I hear you're serious. So am I. I want you ... you want me...
As you observed, a great deal of their relationship revolved around
Buffy saying 'No' and Spike carrying on regardless. It's how it often
worked. The fact that she meant it this time (and has said a firm 'NO'
for _weeks_) might not have registered, because Spike at this point was
hardly thinking clearly. I think he's fairly desperate, and the visit
from Dawn was the clincher - he's been feeling all kinds of sorry for
himself, and then Dawn tells him that he inadvertedly hurt Buffy - so
he goes off to apologise. But then because he's Spike, he can't help
pressing the point - and then comes the thing that pushes him over the
edge - Buffy *admits* to some feelings for him and thus everything goes
to hell:
BUFFY: (calmer) I have feelings for you. I do. But it's not love. I
could never trust you enough for it to be love.
SPIKE: (laughing) Trust is for old marrieds, Buffy. (Buffy rolling her
eyes) Great love is wild ... and passionate and dangerous. It burns and
consumes.
BUFFY: Until there's nothing left. Love like that doesn't last.
SPIKE: (pacing) I know you feel like I do. You don't have to hide it
anymore.
BUFFY: (rolling her eyes) Spike, please stop this.
SPIKE: (whispers) Let yourself feel it.
See the only way Buffy has ever let herself be close to him is during
sex. That's their connection. That's when he can make her feel. So he
tries to do what he did before - show her how good it can be, _make_
her feel it. It's perfectly logical in its own way.
I'll get back to the repercussions further down.
> Second, why isn't Buffy fighting harder? We know
> she's as strong as he is, even after you factor out the element of
> surprise, so lying there weakly squirming and pleading for so long
> before finally bothering to kick him across the room doesn't seem to
> make sense to me - why hold back? Doesn't quite play right.
It's been forever since I watched this scene (not surprisingly), but I
think one reason is that somehow she _does_ trust him - f.ex. the
handcuffs and Katrina's body, as well as looking after Dawn, telling
him about Heaven, with her body while they were sleeping together. She
trusts him _not to hurt her_ - I don't know if a mental block can
impair fighting, but I wouldn't be surprised. Also he's pinning her
down, and actually using all of his strength - which is not
inconsiderate. Remember he's killed two Slayers in the past.
And notice that he never vamps out - never tries to bite her. It's not
the demon in Spike who's attacking, it's the man (if, y'know, it's
possible to make such a distinction, since he _is_ a demon.)
> Finally, there's the fact that the whole situation is handled in a
> way that seems a little more heavy-handed than necessary. Showing that
> Spike is evil and that his obsession is dangerous may not require
> having him try to force himself on someone, but that's what'll
> provoke the strongest knee-jerk reaction. And the imagery of Buffy
> guiltily trying to hide her bruises in the followup scenes, when
> compounded with her legitimate reasons for being shell-shocked is not
> only an extension of that third concern, but it plays up the
> Buffy/scared-abuse-victim vibe in a way that I don't think is
> helpful. [Essay writers: want to try to show this as an echo of
> "Innocence?" It could probably be done.]
The thing is - it's not about Buffy. It's about Spike. It's not some
sort of 'punishment' - making her the victim, because she slept with
the bad guy. Also it's not done to show _us_ that Spike is still evil
(although I think that was a factor what with the faction that thought
poor ickle Spikey wasn't evil, he was just misunderstood) - it's done
to show _Spike_ what he (still) is. Just like with Willow it has to be
Tara who gets hurt, then with Spike it has to be Buffy.
> Spike seems more like himself in his later exchange with Clem; he seems
> to show real moral guilt "what have I done?" and then immediately
> retreats from that, changing it to "what has she done to me?" I
> think he's like some fans - he likes himself better when he's
> unambiguously evil. By this point he's stopped trying to convince
> himself that he's still the same Spike as pre-chip, on any level.
> But the fear of the effect Buffy's having on him and the desire to go
> back to what he was are not new, so this more clearly makes sense.
I love that scene in the crypt - with Clem of all people as sounding
board. And it's very interesting to contrast the Spike we see now, with
the Spike of only a year ago.
>From 'Tough Love':
SPIKE: (considers) Well, I'm not good, and I'm okay.
>From 'The Gift':
SPIKE: I know you'll never love me. I know that I'm a monster. But you
treat me like a man. And that's...
And now...
SPIKE: (desperate) Why do I feel this way?
CLEM: (shrugs) Love's a funny thing.
SPIKE: Is that what this is?
And of courrse:
Spike: It [the chip] won't let me be a monster. (quietly) And I can't
be a man. I'm nothing.
But to get back to the 'why does he hurt Buffy when he never meant to?'
I'm going to quote a snippet of something written by ShipperX a while
ago, which yet again focusses on the whole soulless thing and what it
means:
------
"I think the point of the Crypt scene in Seeing Red is to show that
Spike really never comprehended the difference between souled and
unsouled in a real way. That's the point of being soulless. It's not
that they cannot intellectualize the difference between right and
wrong, it's that they cannot FEEL it. The significance of the crypt
scene is because for one moment he glimpsed what he didn't understand
(it's the old you don't know what you don't know... until of course,
you're faced with your ignorance). Spike THOUGHT he was as good as
souled, but he was confronted with the dichotomy of the AR. It violated
the promise that he had intended to keep, that he meant to keep, and
that meant something to him... and he didn't even feel the point where
he crossed the line."
------
Of course the question is now... where does he go from here? He (very
understandably) blames the chip (and Buffy), and he's not wrong - we've
all discussed ad naseum the effect the chip has had, as well as his
falling in love with Buffy. But the chip never make him _feel_ ("Why
do I feel this way?") and that's of course where it gets interesting. I
guess you'll have to keep watching! :)
> Then of course, tragedy strikes. My
> critical side ["Apollo," to the serious geeks] is worried that
> things have gone a little over the top in terms of calculated misery
> for its own sake, with a gun of all things being used to kill a
> character just after she gets into a blissfully happy relationship.
You _do_ remember that you're watching a Joss Whedon show, right?
> My
> Dionysian side says to get lost in the depression of the moment, and
> get all curious about where this'll take Willow.
Well that's the question, isn't it?
> AOQ rating: Good
Can't disagree with that - it's been forever since I watched this ep.
so I can't say if it merits more. Oh - and I nearly forgot. About the
whole Warren (and men generally) thing, here's a bit from molly_may's
review of this ep.
-----------------------
If the theme of S6 is "Oh, grow up!", then the theme of "Seeing Red" is
"Be a man!". Spike, Warren, and Xander all struggle with their
relationships with women in this episode, specifically their
relationships with Buffy, and look at how much of what goes on is
gendered. Rape, obviously, is perceived as being almost exclusively a
crime that men perpetuate on women (unless you preface the word "rape"
with the word "prison"). Warren uses that good old phallic replacement,
a loaded gun, to shoot at Buffy and kill Tara , but he only does so
after Buffy crushes his metaphoric balls and calls him "bitch". After
Warren punches Buffy, he asks her if she's never fought a real man
before, and during the fight he calls her "baby" and "kitten", and of
course, "bitch". After she defeats him, Buffy calls him "a sad little
boy", which somewhat echoes what Anya said to Xander at the end of
"Entropy".
---------------------
Yes there's angst up to the rafters, but there's also a lot of good
stuff.
Ken from Chicago
"vague disclaimer" <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote in message
news:l64o-1rj5-24ED0...@europe.isp.giganews.com...
Guns are good when handled by the big manly macho menfolk like Riley or
Wesley or some other guy whose name end in "-ley".
-- Ken from Chicago
Apteryx
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> Alyson Hannigan sheet-clad so suggestively for so often gets an
> automatic Good or higher. Buffy's appeal to the hormones has been a
> little blunted lately thanks to the bizarre eyesore outfits, but this
> may be the tastiest that Willow's looked all series. Just to get all
> this crass stuff out of the way, Willow's aforementioned edibility
> may explain why Benson is looking kinda chubby this time around,
> although still cute. So, they have some exuberant sex, we clumsily
> insert the latter into the opening credits just because the ME staffers
> are not nice people, and we're off into the land of doom-n-gloom.
Even though they look like they aren't wearing much, given Whedon's
strong stand on happiness, they are effectively putting on red shirts.
> from her this way. Seems like a common reaction. Anya's barely in
> this episode, and is back to trying to get wishes, although it seems
> more half-hearted now; kind of a dumb scene that runs too long, but it
> does have a few good laughs between "who's Anya?" and having her
> ultimately interrupt and ignore her new friend at the end.
Amusing that although her own desire for vengeance got her the gig, her
issues impede her ability do the job.
>
> That being said, I'm not sure if this holds together as well as it
> should. Like "Dead Things," this feels like an episode that needs
> to be digested, and then it'll gradually make more sense. But on
> first viewing, a few things bothered me. First of all, I'm not
> entirely following the motivations: Spike generally would do anything
> rather than hurt Buffy, except when he's in crazy revenge-seeking
> mode (as seen last episode, and not so much here). Yeah, looking for
> logic in someone who's a slave to wild emotion might be
> counterproductive, but I feel like either I'm missing one step or the
> writers are. Second, why isn't Buffy fighting harder? We know
> she's as strong as he is, even after you factor out the element of
> surprise, so lying there weakly squirming and pleading for so long
> before finally bothering to kick him across the room doesn't seem to
> make sense to me - why hold back? Doesn't quite play right.
A cynic might be tempted to believe that yet again Buffy's fighting
strength varies according to the requirements of the script. And yeah,
it's heavy handed, especially in the shocked Buffy scene with Xander
that follows.
> All right, on to the big fight. Liked Buffy not backing down in the
> face of invincibility, and Jonathan finding a good way to show his
> better colors. The silliness of the rocket packs is worth a big stupid
> laugh, especially after The Other One hits the roof. Didn't like
> Gellar's helpless stupefied expression watching Warren blast off.
Oh puleese! That was exasperation, not helplessness.
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> - Seeing how hard a vampire can hit while blowin' in the wind.
> "That was rhetorical!"
> - The Other One's breakup soliloquy
>
> And there's some healing between Buffy and Xander, whose friendship
> yet again takes a licking and keeps on ticking. It seems like their
> periods of distance tend to remind them how much they need each
> other's support. "I don't know what I'd do... without you and
> Wil." "Let's not find out." There's blame that they could
> work through and assign, or they could just cling to each other.
>
> Then of course, tragedy strikes.
Did you notice the magic bullet? Going up at a sharp angle from the gun
to the window, then taking a sharp turn to the horizontal to hit Tara
at window height some distance inside the room. Either that or there
was a second gunman on the grassy knoll across the street.
> vg'q or va gur svanyr, gub). Again, heart and mind divided. My
> critical side ["Apollo," to the serious geeks] is worried that
> things have gone a little over the top in terms of calculated misery
> for its own sake, with a gun of all things being used to kill a
> character just after she gets into a blissfully happy relationship. My
> Dionysian side says to get lost in the depression of the moment, and
> get all curious about where this'll take Willow.
That was pretty much my take on it too. The gun of course is to bring
it down to the mundane level that season 6 has been operating on.
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: I have some misgivings, but mostly an important
> episode that delivers.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
Pretty much agree. Good for me too. For me, the 66th best BtVS episode,
7th best in season 6
Apteryx
Rowan Hawthorn
> In article <j5-dnUCOhv_1PXPZ...@giganews.com>,
> Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I think I'd not like Willow looking at *me* that way...
>
> Man, that must have been painful to write...
Eh - it was 3:00 AM and I'd spent the last 18 hours banging on this
#@$^%#@ programming job I'm working on. I was pretty well numb by then...
rrh...@acme.com
MBangel10 (Melissa) wrote:
There is also the age-old confusion between understanding an action and
condoning it. Spock explained the distinction to the Romulans almost
forty years ago (zounds!) but not everyone has gotten the word.
Richard R. Hershberger
ravimotha
Ken from Chicago wrote:
> >
> >> Then of course, tragedy strikes. I'm assuming Tara's dead here,
> >> since, well, she looks dead, and V'ir xabja gung fur jbhyqa'g
> >
> > - i am a leaf on the wind
> > whedon is quite willing to kill major characters like jenny or wash or
> > doyle
> > to prove the situation is as dire as it seems
>
> See how he soars.
>
> > arf meow arf - nsa fodder
> > ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
> > if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
>
> -- Ken from Chicago
I think it's actually one of the marks that sets Joss apart from the
other writers out there.
A criticism of lots of shows (especially where there is mild to real
peril), is that the central characters are bullet proof.
By making any character cannon fodder, the sense of peril is magnified.
<spoilage ahead>
In Serenity , by Killing Shepherd Book , we open the possibility that
people are going to get more casualties.
By killing Wash we open up the fact that ANYONE could by the farm.
but thsi means that last few minutes.. is tense and properly so...
regards
Ravi
Opus the Penguin
> (kinda reminiscent of Glory in the tetra-ultimate episode of S5),
"Pre-antepenultimate" is the word you're looking for.
Or maybe not.
--
Opus the Penguin
The best darn penguin in all of Usenet
Opus the Penguin
> Then of course, tragedy strikes. I'm assuming Tara's dead here,
> since, well, she looks dead, and V'ir xabja gung fur jbhyqa'g
> fheivir Frnfba Fvk fvapr ybat orsber fur jnf rira vagebqhprq (V
> svtherq vg'q or va gur svanyr, gub).
Just as a spoiler warning, AOQ, you really don't want to un-ROT13 the
above until you've seen the rest of Season 6.
rrh...@acme.com
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Then of course, tragedy strikes. I'm assuming Tara's dead here,
> since, well, she looks dead, and V'ir xabja gung fur jbhyqa'g
> fheivir Frnfba Fvk fvapr ybat orsber fur jnf rira vagebqhprq (V svtherq
> vg'q or va gur svanyr, gub). Again, heart and mind divided. My
> critical side ["Apollo," to the serious geeks] is worried that
> things have gone a little over the top in terms of calculated misery
> for its own sake, with a gun of all things being used to kill a
> character just after she gets into a blissfully happy relationship. My
> Dionysian side says to get lost in the depression of the moment, and
> get all curious about where this'll take Willow.
How would you contrast your Apollo-side reaction with your
Starbuck-side reaction?
burt...@hotmail.com
> And speaking of unpleasant, this brings us to what I'm sure is one of
> the most talked about and debated parts of SR, the bathroom encounter
> between Buffy and Spike. I feel like the effects of the scene work for
> me better than the attempted rape itself, where a few details seem
> wrong. But first let's note that clearly something is being done
> right: it says something that Mrs. Quality, whom I'm using as my less
> nitpicky and more pro-B/S control group, was quite disturbed by this,
> yet still in some way wants Spike to somehow find a way to make up for
> it. The confusion and such works out, since even Buffy clearly telling
> him that she's not interested is only a little bit removed from some
> past scenes between these two.
Only a little bit removed? Are you serious? When did Buffy ever
*repeatedly* scream and beg and plead for Spike to stop before this?
Telling him to go away while they're both standing and facing each
other doesn't even compare to this.
> That being said, I'm not sure if this holds together as well as it
> should. Like "Dead Things," this feels like an episode that needs
> to be digested, and then it'll gradually make more sense. But on
> first viewing, a few things bothered me. First of all, I'm not
> entirely following the motivations: Spike generally would do anything
> rather than hurt Buffy, except when he's in crazy revenge-seeking
> mode (as seen last episode, and not so much here).
This is just plain flat-out wrong. Spike has hurt Buffy before,
intentionally. When he taunted her that she "came back wrong" in
"Smashed," he knew what her mental state was at the time and he knew
how much those words would hurt her. In the balcony scene in "Dead
Things," when he had sex with her while telling her that she
"belong(ed) in the dark with him," again, he knew full well how much
that would hurt her. It was a calculated attempt to cause her pain and
drive her away from her friends and toward him.
Now, it's arguable as to whether causing Buffy pain was Spike's primary
goal in those cases, but even if it wasn't, he was clearly more than
willing to hurt Buffy as much as he had to in order to get her and/or
keep her with him.
(Which is why the "I don't hurt you." "I know." dialogue doesn't wash,
because it flies in the face of what we've seen before. You can either
fanwank it and say that Buffy isn't a reliable narrator when it comes
to Spike (which there's a large amount of truth to), or just chalk it
up to bad writing. I go back and forth on that one.)
Don Sample
vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
The guns thing is something else that they got overly heavy handed with.
For the previous 5 seasons they have shown that Buffy, while not gun
crazy, at least knew something about how to handle them. She had no
problem using Jungle Bob's rifle in "Homecoming" and she knew how to
unload Jonathan's rifle in "Earshot" without any fumbling around
wondering how the thing worked. Suddenly in season 6 she becomes a
complete idiot whenever she's got a gun in her hands.
vague disclaimer
rrh...@acme.com wrote:
Now, you see, I just *thought* that...
burt...@hotmail.com
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > considers it his business who Buffy lets put their dick in her. The
> > vibe seems straightforward to me, given that she's his hero and role
> > model, and it's important to his sense of self to have her as an
> > invincible force who relies on him. So, disappointment manifests
> > itself as anger. I'll single out Nick Brendon for a little extra
> > praise this time for the way he makes it look like part of him is
> > regretting letting the hurtful little quips come out even as he can't
> > stop saying them.
>
> I haven't watched SR in a long, long time but I remember wanting to kick
> Xander when he went off on Buffy in that scene.
Xander was being a jerk here, but on a basic level, I don't think he
was out of line at all. Wouldn't you be concerned if you found out that
one of your friends had been having sex with a serial killer? Even if
he was in prison at the time?
MBangel10 (Melissa)
Well considering that Xander had already been through it once with
Buffy, you'd think the second time he would be a bit more
understanding. Oh yeah, and speaking of relationships with serial
killers, didn't he just skip out on Anya?
Oh wait, I keep forgetting that what Angel and Anya did in the past
doesn't count because they are not Spike. My bad.
burt...@hotmail.com
Fine. Add "hypocritical" to the "jerk" comment about Xander. But Xander
has a history of being more concerned about his friends than about
himself, so the point still stands.
> Oh wait, I keep forgetting that what Angel and Anya did in the past
> doesn't count because they are not Spike. My bad.
Saying "Angel and Anya did it too" is not a defense of Spike.
rrh...@acme.com
Well, I guess we've demonstrated which of us is the better person...
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> threads.
>
> Season Six, Episode 18: "Seeing Red"
> (or "There goes my hero/She's ordinary")
> Writer: Steven S. DeKnight
> Director: Michael Gershman
.
> Okay, I'm considering instituting a policy that any episode with
> Alyson Hannigan sheet-clad so suggestively for so often gets an
> automatic Good or higher.
A wise policy indeed; though I suspect making it a policy is reduntant, as
it will happen naturally anyway.
> although still cute. So, they have some exuberant sex, we clumsily
> insert the latter into the opening credits just because the ME staffers
> are not nice people,
Also so that I can refer to Amber Benson as one of the main cast members.
(Not that I'd ever refer to Danny Strong that way, despite Superstar.)
Really, Amber should have been in there throughout season 5 and 6. When
was the last episode she wasn't in?
> and we're off into the land of doom-n-gloom.
Ahhh, my beloved homeland!
> Anya's barely in
> this episode, and is back to trying to get wishes, although it seems
> more half-hearted now; kind of a dumb scene that runs too long, but it
> does have a few good laughs between "who's Anya?" and having her
> ultimately interrupt and ignore her new friend at the end.
This time I'll agree with you that the scene runs too long. It is
amusing, though, and shows us that while Anya is still a Vengeance Demon
she isn't currently wreaking much havoc. I like her line about lies
"flying around like little monkeys." Mixed metaphor, or is she thinking
of the Wizard of Oz?
> I don't know if we really need to spend a lot of time on why Xander
> considers it his business who Buffy lets put their dick in her. The
> vibe seems straightforward to me, given that she's his hero and role
> model, and it's important to his sense of self to have her as an
> invincible force who relies on him. So, disappointment manifests
> itself as anger.
Makes sense. I'm not sure how many people will agree with this, but I
think Xander's fault here is that he gives in to anger, NOT that he's
sticking his nose into something that's not his concern. If you have
close friends, your personal life *is* their concern. And while they
don't have the right to give you orders, friends do have the right to an
opinion about your choices, and to speak up if they think you're making a
mistake. That's what friends are for. Now, as you say, a big chunk of
Xander's sense of self is based on his friendship with and importance to
Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Another big chunk is based on his friendship
with Buffy the Human Being. Now he's found out that Buffy has been
concealing very important stuff from him, which seems a very unhealthy
sign for the state of their friendship. "Xander, what I do with my
personal life is none of your business." "It used to be." He feels like
Buffy has demoted him without warning from the inner circle of her
friends, or that he's losing her friendship altogether. It's more than
painful, it's threatening to his whole already-damaged sense of
self-worth.
> The hand of the plot says that it's time to run into Xander, who
> might act like a bit of a jerk sometimes, but will in the end stand up
> on behalf of good geeks against bad geeks.
Warren says to Xander "Let's see how popular you are without a face."
Popular? Warren must have felt low in the pecking order indeed if Xander,
with his small, outcast circle of friends, looked like one of the popular
ones.
> And speaking of unpleasant, this brings us to what I'm sure is one of
> the most talked about and debated parts of SR, the bathroom encounter
> between Buffy and Spike.
Ah, yes. First, two comments. In Entropy, Spike tells Buffy "I don't
hurt you." BtVS believes firmly in the concept of jinxes. If a character
says this to someone in one episode, it's inevitable that in the next
episode he'll find himself doing something especially hurtful to that
someone.
Secondly, love this quote --
Spike: [laughs] "Trust is for old marrieds, Buffy."
Yes, Spike is so very much the right person for Buffy. How can she
not see it? How can the audience not see it? (Note: sarcasm.)
> first viewing, a few things bothered me. First of all, I'm not
> entirely following the motivations: Spike generally would do anything
> rather than hurt Buffy, except when he's in crazy revenge-seeking
> mode (as seen last episode, and not so much here). Yeah, looking for
> logic in someone who's a slave to wild emotion might be
> counterproductive, but I feel like either I'm missing one step or the
> writers are.
It feels right to me. Spike is desperately convinced that Buffy really
loves him, deep down inside, and just needs to let it out. He figures sex
will let it out. "I know you felt it when I was in you." (At the
beginning of Entropy he asks Buffy why she won't have sex with him again;
there too he was probably thinking that sex would bring out the love in
Buffy.) So, he tries to have sex with her. He's already used to Buffy's
resisting before becoming passionate, and he's also used to rather violent
sex from her. That, combined with a LARGE element of self-deception,
allows him to avoid realizing that Buffy's no really means no. Once she
kicks him across the room and he has a moment to think, then he starts to
realize the truth.
> Second, why isn't Buffy fighting harder?
I think it's clear if you watch closely (which admittedly is hard to do).
One reason is that it takes a while for her to realize that Spike really
isn't going to listen when she begs him to stop. But there's also a
physical factor. Buffy had hurt her back in the fight earlier, and when
Spike's assault starts to get serious, she falls and lands on the edge of
the bathtup -- exactly on that injured spot. This is the part that's easy
to miss. The pain crippled her for a moment, allowing Spike to get the
upper hand, and hinders her throughout the rest of the fight. (She says
"Spike ... no ... I'm hurt," which of course makes no impression on him.)
From this point she's fighting as hard as she can, but she's still
hindered by her injury and Spike already has her at a disadvantage. Soon
he's on top of her, pinning her down with his
just-slightly-less-than-Slayer-strength; she naturally tries to scramble
out from under rather than fight from that position. He drags her back
and keeps her partly pinned, but in their further struggles she gets one
leg into position to kick him off of her. It plays out believably enough
for me. Of course the whole time she still keeps crying out for him to
stop, not because she can't fight but because, well, who wouldn't? And
her continued cries emphasize the fact that Spike *should* have known that
what he was doing was rape, if only he could drop the self-deception and
see things clearly.
Adding to the impact, ME shoots this scene with a hand-held camera and
mostly without a soundtrack. It's an obvious trick, but boy does it work
here.
> way that seems a little more heavy-handed than necessary. Showing that
> Spike is evil and that his obsession is dangerous may not require
> having him try to force himself on someone, but that's what'll
> provoke the strongest knee-jerk reaction.
It goes beyond the knee-jerk reaction. Spike's sexual assault on Buffy
casts a new light on their whole previous sexual relationship. Try
watching the end of Smashed or the beginning of Dead Things with the same
eyes now. We're now seeing a side of him that was always there, but that
Buffy has now had to face squarely for the first time.
> And the imagery of Buffy
> guiltily trying to hide her bruises in the followup scenes,
She doesn't feel guilty, but she does feel dirty and doesn't want to face
her friends and family in that state. It's a normal enough reaction for
someone in that situation. She doesn't tell Willow what happened, or let
Xander tell her. Does Xander tell Willow and Tara while Buffy's out, or
are they still in the dark about what happened with Spike?
Buffy also stops Xander when he's about to go shove a stake through
Spike's heart. What's that all about? Does she rationally decide that
attempted rape isn't a capital crime? Is she still emotionally unwilling
to let Spike die? Or does she just want to have the whole incident over
with for now, without any further delay for staking? Something about the
way she says "Don't ... just don't..." makes me think it's that third
option, nothing to do with whether Spike lives or dies.
(It's nice to see that *some* people actually listen when Buffy says
no....)
> Spike seems more like himself in his later exchange with Clem;
Oh, he was himself in the bathroom scene all right. Desperately wanting
Buffy; impulsive; emotional; violent; associating sex with violence, at
least with Buffy; accustomed to pressing on when Buffy says No; having
only a limited and erratic ability to empathize with humans; not
understanding Buffy half so well as he thinks he does -- that's all Spike.
But anyway, the talk with Clem, or rather the monologue in front of Clem,
is interesting for all the reasons you say. "What have I done?" he asks,
followed by "Why *didn't* I do it?" Now that he's calmed down, he's upset
at how he hurt Buffy, but he's also disturbed by his own reaction. It's
sadly humorous when Clem describes Buffy as having "issues." Spike
himself has even more than Buffy.
> All right, on to the big fight. Liked Buffy not backing down in the
> face of invincibility, and Jonathan finding a good way to show his
> better colors.
Hurr-- well, half a hurrah for Jonathan. He essentially saves first
Xander's life, and then Buffy's. It's a shame he didn't have the strength
to break with Warren before making one last score, but better late than
never, I guess.
> The silliness of the rocket packs is worth a big stupid
> laugh, especially after The Other One hits the roof. Didn't like
> Gellar's helpless stupefied expression watching Warren blast off.
As everyone has said and will say, she wasn't helpless or stupefied, just
exasperated at the lameness of the whole thing. (This was the reaction I
thought she should have had when the Knights show up in Spiral.)
> And there's some healing between Buffy and Xander, whose friendship
> yet again takes a licking and keeps on ticking. It seems like their
> periods of distance tend to remind them how much they need each
> other's support. "I don't know what I'd do... without you and
> Wil." "Let's not find out." There's blame that they could
> work through and assign, or they could just cling to each other.
I love this scene, especially the way they tentatively feel each other
out. But I'm always a sucker for the moments when the Scoobies finally
pull together.
> Then of course, tragedy strikes. I'm assuming Tara's dead here,
> since, well, she looks dead,
She sure doesn't look healthy, and that wound is in a bad spot. I think
we're supposed to understand that more blood is there than they actually
show us. After the blood welling up on Buffy's chest and especially the
shocking spray of blood across Willow, there was only so much more that
they could show without making UPN nervous.
> that she can't say whether she "liked" it or not, and she's
> anxious to see the next one... I'd call that a success). In any
> case, the sequence is very well put together, with Warren appearing out
> of a quiet moment
I really like the way Warren is framed when he appears. Without drawing
attention to it, they keep his hands entirely out of the frame, so we
don't see the gun until the very moment he starts firing. And the use of
a gun keeps us in the real world, eliminating any emotional comfort zone
that magic and demons may give us.
About the "magic bullet," after many rewatchings I have to agree that the
angles really don't work. Doesn't bother me much though. I rank it with
all the vampires we've seen dust after being staked through the left
shoulder.
Another of my personal notes: This shooting was the first major new plot
development to be spoiled for me after I became a regular Buffy viewer.
It happened right here on atbvs, as a matter of fact, and my GOD was I
pissed. But by the time the moment came, I was so caught up in the
episode that I had forgotten the spoiler, so it was still a shock. As it
was meant to be. That I could forget such a major spoiler, one that was
preying on my mind as the opening credits rolled, shows how intense the
best parts of Seeing Red were.
> AOQ rating: Good
The twisty-turny movement forward on so many story arcs (plus Willow and
Tara under the sheets) is enough to make Seeing Red a high Good at the
least. There were some weak points -- for example, Anya's bar scene and
Xander's fish talk went on too long (though I liked the nod to Go Fish) --
but the sheer emotional impact might outweigh them. You know what? Fuck
it. I'm gonna say Excellent.
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
>> considers it his business who Buffy lets put their dick in her. The
>> vibe seems straightforward to me, given that she's his hero and role
>> model, and it's important to his sense of self to have her as an
>> invincible force who relies on him. So, disappointment manifests
>> itself as anger. I'll single out Nick Brendon for a little extra
>> praise this time for the way he makes it look like part of him is
>> regretting letting the hurtful little quips come out even as he can't
>> stop saying them.
>
> It demonstrates why Buffy didn't turn to her "good friends" early on.
Xander's anger was in part because she concealed it from him for so long;
that wouldn't have been a factor if she had turned to him earlier. And
anyway, she could have gone to Willow.
An interesting compare-and-contrast would be the "Buffy's boinking Spike"
confrontations in Intervention and in Entropy/SR.
>> laugh, especially after The Other One hits the roof. Didn't like
>> Gellar's helpless stupefied expression watching Warren blast off.
>
> Well, it's not every day you see a genuine jetpack--despite They having
> promised us jetpacks in the 21st century! No jetpack, flying car or even
> monorail. At least we have robocars--if only in prototype form.
Heh. This past New Year's Eve I was at a party where a friend of mine was
complaining about this very lack of jetpacks and flying cars. I had to
point out to him that while he was saying this, he was also scrolling
through his 60 GB iPod setting up an on-the-go playlist for the party.
We do live in the future, it's just not the one TV promised us.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> > Alyson Hannigan sheet-clad so suggestively for so often gets an
> > automatic Good or higher.
>
> A wise policy indeed; though I suspect making it a policy is reduntant, as
> it will happen naturally anyway.
xraarql?
> Oh, he was himself in the bathroom scene all right. Desperately wanting
> Buffy; impulsive; emotional; violent; associating sex with violence, at
> least with Buffy; accustomed to pressing on when Buffy says No; having
> only a limited and erratic ability to empathize with humans; not
> understanding Buffy half so well as he thinks he does -- that's all Spike.
i dont fall in the camp that spike deserves death for all the people he killed
anymore than a mountain lion deserves death for all the bunnies it eats
he was doing what was natural for his kind of creature
and if that endangers humans then he is destroyed
just like a mountain lion that wanders into a suburb
i dont see it as good or evil but as animal control
chipped spike has been a useful weapon
but like xander said you dont point it at your own head
spike is a dead soulless thing
however close he approaches humanity
it will still lurch out of his reach
vague disclaimer
rrh...@acme.com wrote:
I'll let history be my judge :)
MBangel10 (Melissa)
I was just giving you a hard time. Xander wasn't that far off the mark
but he was out of line in his argument w/ Buffy (i.e. "he's evil. Get
on me."). He was a great big jerk about it but at least he handled the
conversation with her much better the second time around. What's funny
is, as much as he was upset about her having sex with Spike, he was
just as (if not more so) upset about her not confiding in him about it.
He may actually have been more understanding of Buffy if said blond
vampire hadn't just tapped Anya at the Magic Box the night before.
Don Sample
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> > A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > threads.
>
> >
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Six, Episode 18: "Seeing Red"
> > (or "There goes my hero/She's ordinary")
> > Writer: Steven S. DeKnight
> > Director: Michael Gershman
>
> > Anya's barely in
> > this episode, and is back to trying to get wishes, although it seems
> > more half-hearted now; kind of a dumb scene that runs too long, but it
> > does have a few good laughs between "who's Anya?" and having her
> > ultimately interrupt and ignore her new friend at the end.
>
> This time I'll agree with you that the scene runs too long. It is
> amusing, though, and shows us that while Anya is still a Vengeance Demon
> she isn't currently wreaking much havoc. I like her line about lies
> "flying around like little monkeys." Mixed metaphor, or is she thinking
> of the Wizard of Oz?
Or the Sunnydale High production of "Romeo and Juliet."
> > The silliness of the rocket packs is worth a big stupid
> > laugh, especially after The Other One hits the roof. Didn't like
> > Gellar's helpless stupefied expression watching Warren blast off.
>
> As everyone has said and will say, she wasn't helpless or stupefied, just
> exasperated at the lameness of the whole thing. (This was the reaction I
> thought she should have had when the Knights show up in Spiral.)
She gives them a good eye roll when she first sees them.
Malsperanza
I've been lurking recently, as I've been watching Buffy for the first
time on more or less the same schedule as this discussion. It's always
odd to come late to a very big, longterm, extended conversation, in
which every detail has been hashed and rehashed, so I've been grateful
to AOQ and respondents for this detailed conversation. It's a pleasure
to find a good, thoughtful discussion long after most newsgroups and
blogs have degenerated to snarking and squeeing about solidified
opinions. So, thanks!
I find myself in whichever subcategory of the fandom is particularly
interested in s6 in Buffy and Spike's parallel struggles to recover
their humanity, their attempt to enlist each other as "rescuers," and
the confusion they both experience between being in love and being
rescued. Also the ways both of them seem to be struggling with what it
means to be a hero--Buffy directly; Spike by being attracted to one.
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > That being said, I'm not sure if this holds together as well as it
> > should. Like "Dead Things," this feels like an episode that needs
> > to be digested, and then it'll gradually make more sense. But on
> > first viewing, a few things bothered me. First of all, I'm not
> > entirely following the motivations: Spike generally would do anything
> > rather than hurt Buffy, except when he's in crazy revenge-seeking
> > mode (as seen last episode, and not so much here).
burt...@hotmail.com responded:
> This is just plain flat-out wrong. Spike has hurt Buffy before,
> intentionally.
I have a feeling this is one of those pov interpretations that is
thoroughly colored by all the other interpretive material one brings to
bear--e.g., whether one likes Spike/Buffy, whether one wants to
consider the AR as a redeemable error or a rape--the beyond-the-pale
violence against women (and objectification of them) that is the ne
plus ultra of Buffyverse evil.
> When he taunted her that she "came back wrong" in
> "Smashed," he knew what her mental state was at the time and he knew
> how much those words would hurt her.
Frex, I did not read Spike's remark as a taunt, nor did I think he had
any sense that it might hurt her. And in the context of "Smashed," I
didn't see Buffy being hurt by the comment--on the contrary, Spike
seems to be the *one* person who genuinely understands that it is
possible to "come back wrong"--which Buffy herself has been suspecting
and fearing; his confirmation of what she suspects is a huge relief to
her (in my reading), whereas Tara's reassurance that she's "just fine"
is devastating to her. Because if she "came back wrong," then her
behavior--especially her failure to connect emotionally with anyone or
anything in the world--is not her fault, not her responsibility.
Or rather, if she cannot cure it (which so far she has not been able to
do), then at least her failure is an honorable one, and the alternative
(suicide, as she attempts it in OMWF) is not an act of mere cowardice.
And I think that's why she starts to look at Spike as a kind of
soulmate--or rather, unsoulmate: because she perceives that he too is
trying to cure himself, and failing.
Spike is the only person other than Angel whom Buffy knows who has
actually had to face the problem of having "come back wrong." So the
moment when he identifies her as being in the same condition is a kind
of expression of sympathy and solidarity, twisted though it may seem to
observers.
> In the balcony scene in "Dead
> Things," when he had sex with her while telling her that she
> "belong(ed) in the dark with him," again, he knew full well how much
> that would hurt her. It was a calculated attempt to cause her pain and
> drive her away from her friends and toward him.
Here again, I didn't think it was either calculated or vindictive, but
quite the opposite. Spike is something of a Truthsayer: he tends not to
lie to people and he is impatient with what he sees as Buffy's
evasiveness about her true nature--or rather, what *he* thinks is her
true nature.
He's wrong, of course, because, being soulless, he can't tell the
difference between Buffy's "in-the-darkness" and his own, but he thinks
that if she can stop fooling herself, she'll start to feel better. It's
a terrible misunderstanding on his part, but his instinct is pretty
good: she does buy into the idea, and it does provide her with a little
temporary relief. And there's some truth in it: Ever since she came
back from heaaavven, she's been dwelling in the dark... I suppose the
comparison to Frodo late in Lord of the Rings has probably been worked
to death, but it's similar.
> Now, it's arguable as to whether causing Buffy pain was Spike's primary
> goal in those cases, but even if it wasn't, he was clearly more than
> willing to hurt Buffy as much as he had to in order to get her and/or
> keep her with him.
I think, in short, that he was genuinely trying to help, not acting out
of selfishness. Spike's fairly perceptive about Buffy by this
point--perhaps because she already has one foot in his Dark world, and
he has half a foot in the human world. But his only comparable
experience is with Drusilla (whom he seems genuinely to have cared
for). I think he believes that Post-resurrection Buffy is some sort of
Ubervampire, only without the, youknow, bloodsucking.
> (Which is why the "I don't hurt you." "I know." dialogue doesn't wash,
> because it flies in the face of what we've seen before. You can either
> fanwank it and say that Buffy isn't a reliable narrator when it comes
> to Spike (which there's a large amount of truth to), or just chalk it
> up to bad writing. I go back and forth on that one.)
Well, it worked for me, but then, I like Spike & I think the rapport
between him and Buffy in s6 is persuasive. I don't mean the sexual
wallowing in degradation, but the rapport that makes Spike the only
person to whom Buffy can describe what it felt like to be ripped out of
heaven and forced back to hell-on-hearth. The only person who can
interrupt her suicide-by-jazztap attempt and actually get through to
her.
After all, it wasn't Spike who dragged her back from heaavvven, forced
her to take up the Slayer role again, with all its endless suffering,
isolation, and exhaustion. No, that was her friends--the people who
supposedly would never hurt her.
That doesn't mean that Spike is right, of course. Because, yep: still
evil, soulless, driven by lust and desire, living only in the moment
because eternal unlife kind of puts the kabosh on planning for the
future. So Spike is frequently worng--disastrously wrong. The AR
reminds viewers to take his flaws seriously. But throughout s6 we've
been seeing all of Buffy's friends and family claw at her in the most
appallingly needy and demanding ways. If she hasn't noticed them much,
they sure haven't been paying much attention to her deteriorating
mental state (not to mention her financial problems). S6 seems to be
all about individuals in isolation, and their failures to overcome that
isolation.
Spike knows that he and Buffy both live in a world in which physical
violence has the unique power to overcome isolation--for better or
worse. They are both violent people. It's not so surprising that Spike
would completely misread himself and Buffy in a moment of desperation.
Hey, a hot kiss kept her from offing herself in OMWF; it might work
again, or so he thinks. And the lesson of that (from Spike's pov) is
that Buffy kind of likes to have her hand forced. The handcuffs, the
touches of S&M, all their interactions in recent episodes certainly
lead him to believe that she would welcome him taking charge,
overcoming her scruples, imposing his well, *relieving her of the
responsibility for the decision.*
In short ;-) there are a number of things in "Seeing Red" and the
episodes leading up to it that don't work for me, but the AR fits, and
it does read to me as the first time Spike has done something to
deliberately hurt Buffy. The fact that it has a small element of
accuracy and truth only makes it the more uncomfortable and miserable
to watch. Not to mention that for those viewers who have been enjoying
a bit of voyeurism in the Buffy/Spike unromance, this is a rude, harsh
awakening, and overdue.
~Mal
Rowan Hawthorn
> Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>> threads.
>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Six, Episode 18: "Seeing Red"
>> (or "There goes my hero/She's ordinary")
>> Writer: Steven S. DeKnight
>> Director: Michael Gershman
>
> .
>
> angles really don't work. Doesn't bother me much though. I rank it with
> all the vampires we've seen dust after being staked through the left
> shoulder.
I just shrug it off. It's actually pretty easy to fanwank away - anyone
who actually does much shooting in real life *outside of controlled
environments like target ranges* knows that bullets can do some weird
shit. For instance: are there any trees in the backyard? I've seen
bullets strike the edge of a tree a glancing blow and and zip off at
crazy angles. Hell, for that matter, I've seen bullets *enter* a tree,
hit a harder section of the wood or an embedded nail or rock fragment
and emerge from the wood at a completely different angle from the
direction it was traveling when it went in.
One Bit Shy
news:1156486738.4...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 18: "Seeing Red"
It's all Dawn's fault.
See, she goes to Spike to tell him how hurt Buffy is. But that only
convinces Spike more that Buffy's really in love with him. So he goes to
apologize to Buffy, but can't handle Buffy still hiding from her true
feelings, so he sets out to prove it to her. And, well, we know how well
that worked. Buffy doesn't have the heart to take that out on Spike then
and there, so instead she rushes off to break Warren's balls. Which she
does in one delicious smash. Well, Warren doesn't much like having his
balls crushed, so he comes back with a gun and some random mayhem, nailing
both Buffy and Tara (accidentally). So now Willow's pissed off and... well,
that can't be good.
And it's all Dawn's fault. If she just hadn't butted in, Spike never would
have gone to Buffy, Buffy would have let her sore back heal before rushing
off after Warren, Warren would have gone on with his robbery, and when he
was about to betray Jonathan, Jonathan would have put on his Katrina
glamour, come on to Warren and crushed Warren's balls himself while he was
distracted, then all three would be picked up by the police, leaving Willow
and Tara to go on forever being cuddle monkeys.
It's all Dawns's fault.
There's something really crude about having Buffy go from her attempted rape
to busting Warren's balls. It's kinda funny in its way, but still crude and
ugly. A lot of that this episode. And violent. Violent in a particularly
nasty nothing in your fucking lives matter kind of way. Close to three
years of a hard and fascinating journey by Spike to try to find something
inside him that no vampire has - often as not dragged kicking and screaming
through it - but still brought to amazing places in the process - and all of
it comes crashing down in a few seconds. A beautifully painful
reconciliation between Buffy and Xander exploded in a real act of vengeance
with a startling viciousness. And then the stray bullet from that act
arbitrarily and mercilessly ending the show's greatest love story that had
just been gloriously renewed.
To say that this is not a nice show would be rather the understatement.
Yet, somehow, it doesn't make it a bad one. This is the episode that
attempts to strip the glossy veneer off of violence that all of TV -
including BtVS - normally puts there. Mostly it's successful. I don't know
if I'll ever be sure that it was the best choice, but it does work. We've
seen so much violence between Buffy and Spike over the years. Violence with
great humor. Violence with a house crashing down around them. Violence
with great melodramatic speeches. Always violence plus. But here it's just
I don't like this, you're hurting me. Starkly unadorned. Nothing to filter
it with. With Tara it's the arbitrariness of it. A puzzled look. "Your
shirt." And it's over. The big events of life are supposed to have
meaning, aren't they? But there's none here. It's beyond innocent victim.
It's just done. Without even awareness. There's nothing scarier about
living than death where it doesn't belong.
All of this does have important story purposes. And they're all moved along
quite well by it. But not so much right now. Right now it's all shock and
pain. A bomb has landed on Sunnydale and all our characters are down - a
couple quite literally. That's this season for you. Get knocked down. Get
up. Get knocked down harder. Now the cycle has reached the point where
somebody isn't getting up.
That's not an easy kind of story to watch. And for that, I sympathize with
those that don't care for this season. This is kind of the peak of that
sense. Everybody's down. Can I bear to watch them struggle to get up yet
again? Is it really worth it? I think answering that question probably
decides how good or bad this episode is.
Myself. I end up liking it. It's hard for me to explain all why without
spoiling. But the net effect is that for me, it was worth it.
In construction I think this episode is the closest BtVS ever gets to
another Innocence. In the sense of it being so packed with events - some
momentous - and emotions and implications. It's got the shock. And it's
got the sense that everything's just changed.
It's not quite that well constructed, however. Nor so clever. I would only
rate it Good as an episode. But as something pivotal - this episode is near
the top.
> I got a kick
> out of her delirious reaction to seeing the witches get back together.
Yes. Hopefully whiney Dawn is behind us.
> I'll single out Nick Brendon for a little extra
> praise this time for the way he makes it look like part of him is
> regretting letting the hurtful little quips come out even as he can't
> stop saying them.
Xander still has the basic personality that he always had. But he really
has matured too - in spite of recent behavior.
Xander: He doesn't have a soul, Buffy. Just some leash they jammed in his
head. You think he'd still be all snuggles if that chip ever stopped
working?
But the chip *has* stopped working with regards to Buffy. Have you noticed
any snuggles? It's easy to miss that line - or at least not think about it.
But I suspect that Buffy wouldn't miss it. We'll come back to that.
> The Geek Trio get a large chunk of screen-time this week, perhaps for
> the last time. They've definitely served their purpose. Danny
> Strong doing that irritatingly nasal voice for too long at a time while
> attempting to make us take the character at all seriously doesn't do
> it for me, and the part with the monster skin in particular just goes
> on and on.
I haven't thought of it as taking him seriously. Just taking him as alone,
scared, not having any fun anymore, and wanting out. He's still annoying
and pathetic. But at least he worked up enough courage to help Buffy.
I don't think I see you mention Andrew in your Trio rundown. (Which is
typical. He's the other one. Tucker's brother.) But I was amused at him
sipping from that huge ridiculous drink throughout the bar scene, and this
line telling Jonathan to stuff it.
Andrew: Warren's the boss. He's Picard, you're Deanna Troi. Get used to the
feeling, Betazoid.
Aside from making me smile, I like the line as a narrow window slit into his
character. He's the one in the trio that's still playing D&D. Or I should
say, the one who's whole life is a role playing game. Warren and Jonathan
have both grown (for lack of a better word) into something else and aren't
just playing at this anymore. Andrew has gone the opposite direction and is
only able to relate to anything via the action figures back in the basement.
> First of all, I'm not
> entirely following the motivations: Spike generally would do anything
> rather than hurt Buffy, except when he's in crazy revenge-seeking
> mode (as seen last episode, and not so much here). Yeah, looking for
> logic in someone who's a slave to wild emotion might be
> counterproductive, but I feel like either I'm missing one step or the
> writers are.
Broadly speaking he's simply going nuts without Buffy. He's handling the
breakup very badly. What's left of his life? He's not an emotionally
stable guy to begin with, and now he's losing his grip. More particularly,
he's still convinced Buffy really loves him and will eventually feel it
herself with him. And he keeps getting that feeling reinforced. He saw how
angry Buffy was with him over Anya. If she was really over him, why would
she care? Dawn comes over just to tell him how hurt Buffy is. That can
only be because she's pining for him. Right? He's got a specific reason to
go to her now. He said he wouldn't hurt her, and then does anyway with
Anya. He genuinely wants to apologize for that. Make it right. Show that
he's the right kind of man for her. That heads south quickly enough, first
sending him downwards to just let it all end, and then revving him up again
with this sequence.
Spike: You should have let him kill me.
Buffy: I couldn't do that.
Spike: Why?
Buffy: You know why.
Spike: Because you love me.
You know why. Spike's answer to that is the only one he knows that's
conceivably possible - by his way of thinking. It's just one too many times
of Buffy pretending otherwise. There's just one possible reason why Buffy's
let Spike live all these years, spent all the time she has with him, let him
be such a part of her life. She has to love him. The way he loves her.
(More parallel with Anya.)
> Second, why isn't Buffy fighting harder? We know
> she's as strong as he is, even after you factor out the element of
> surprise, so lying there weakly squirming and pleading for so long
> before finally bothering to kick him across the room doesn't seem to
> make sense to me - why hold back? Doesn't quite play right.
She hurt herself fighting the vampire - pretty badly. She snapped in half a
granite headstone with her back. That's the purpose of that scene - and an
early follow-up in the bathroom where she falls and her back hits against
the edge of the tub. So that she's hurt and less able to defend herself
here.... But not hurt enough not to be able to kick Spike away when she
really has to.
> Finally, there's the fact that the whole situation is handled in a
> way that seems a little more heavy-handed than necessary. Showing that
> Spike is evil and that his obsession is dangerous may not require
> having him try to force himself on someone, but that's what'll
> provoke the strongest knee-jerk reaction.
All the romance and other stuff around the violence of their relationship is
stripped away so that only the violence is left. Especially the element of
desire that Buffy previously had is taken away so that it really is just the
soulless dead guy on her.
For Spike, you've got a combination of his fear that it's all over (which he
hasn't been able to handle emotionally) and his stubborn belief that Buffy
*has* to really feel something for him to give him an emotional urgency to
bring it to a head. He's got to make Buffy feel now or it's too late, it's
all done, and he has nothing in his life. Critical to this is Spike's
established understanding that when he pushes it, Buffy will yield. It's
happened over and over again. Go away Spike. Hand on thigh. Glazed eyes
and quiet moan. Spike is trying to recreate that. Recreate the house
crashing down around them. But it doesn't work. He doesn't understand it.
Doesn't believe it. Gets angry about it. And... well, you saw.
> And the imagery of Buffy
> guiltily trying to hide her bruises in the followup scenes, when
> compounded with her legitimate reasons for being shell-shocked is not
> only an extension of that third concern, but it plays up the
> Buffy/scared-abuse-victim vibe in a way that I don't think is
> helpful. [Essay writers: want to try to show this as an echo of
> "Innocence?" It could probably be done.]
I don't know about that. Covering the bruise seems like just about the most
natural act one could do at that point. Slayer or not, she is going to feel
like a victim at that point. Including the wanting to hide it part.
And the feeling that part of it is her fault and weirdly wanting to go easy
on Spike.
But she does recover pretty darn quickly. And it's not entirely bad. There
are a couple good things she got out of the experience. First, it confirmed
to her that she had chosen correctly. She really can't be with Spike. He
really can't be trusted. I think until this happened she must have had
nagging doubts. More importantly, for the first time since OMWF, when push
came to shove, she said no and stuck to it. Now she knows she can - which
she really didn't before.
> Spike seems more like himself in his later exchange with Clem; he seems
> to show real moral guilt "what have I done?" and then immediately
> retreats from that, changing it to "what has she done to me?"
You left out the line in-between. "Why *didn't* I do it?" It's easy to do.
But I sometimes refer to that as the most important line Spike ever uttered.
He goes on to start ranting about the chip in a way and to a degree we
haven't seen in a very long time. But wait a minute. There's something off
here. There is no chip with Buffy. What does the chip have to do with
this? Why is it on his mind right now?
It's the "Why didn't I do it?" When Buffy kicked him across the bathroom
and he finally got that she really, really didn't want him, he stopped.
Horror stricken. Why didn't he continue? Where exactly is the vampire in
him?
Ever since the big moment, complete with a nasty Spike grin, that he
discovered the chip didn't work with Buffy, what exactly has come of that?
How big has it really been? I suppose it let the sex be rougher, but
really, is that the stuff of a momentous event? The only important thing
he's used it for has been to plant a seed of doubt in Buffy about her coming
back wrong. But that's all about her, not Spike. In all the time that he's
been freed of the chip's chains with Buffy, when has he ever used it to be a
vampire with her?
Never. Not even here at his emotional and physical peak of anger and
frustration and with Buffy rejecting him from his life.
Do you remember what Spike said when he found out that the chip didn't work
with Buffy? "Everything's different now."
Except that it wasn't. And discovering that is why it's in the story.
So I return you now to Spike's chip rant and motorbike and poor Clem who
just wants some hot wings and TV.
> And there's some healing between Buffy and Xander, whose friendship
> yet again takes a licking and keeps on ticking. It seems like their
> periods of distance tend to remind them how much they need each
> other's support. "I don't know what I'd do... without you and
> Wil." "Let's not find out." There's blame that they could
> work through and assign, or they could just cling to each other.
Briefly. Season issue #3 for me. In a way the most trivial, and not a
failure of depiction like the previous two. And located here only because
Buffy has now reached the point in her recovery when she realizes that she
really can say no to Spike, and when she reconciles with Xander. And
because Tara and Willow are shown together and happy again. Otherwise it
better belongs back in Hell's Bells. But for me, it's the season's biggest
failing.
Simply, the season never gives the audience and characters a real chance to
appreciate what they've accomplished. I'm not sure that it's clear to
anyone that Buffy is really healed. But she is. Oh, she's still got hard
times and harder memories - she'll always be Buffy. But she's not sick
anymore. And the whole Tara/Willow reunion is so short and so cut off.
In both Hell's Bells and here, an effort is made to show the characters in a
good place, but both times overwhelm that with two of the worst comedowns
BtVS ever gives. In both cases, that contrast does add to the drama. Which
is fine. But I think this season really could have used an episode
somewhere around now that was specifically light and good hearted, most
especially for the purpose of showing a recovered Buffy. Something that you
could actually remember for that purpose and be proud of what these
characters can do and be. I think it's a shame that it didn't, and
represents my only serious criticism of the season's dark feel.
> Then of course, tragedy strikes. I'm assuming Tara's dead here,
> since, well, she looks dead, and V'ir xabja gung fur jbhyqa'g
> fheivir Frnfba Fvk fvapr ybat orsber fur jnf rira vagebqhprq (V svtherq
> vg'q or va gur svanyr, gub). Again, heart and mind divided. My
> critical side ["Apollo," to the serious geeks] is worried that
> things have gone a little over the top in terms of calculated misery
> for its own sake, with a gun of all things being used to kill a
> character just after she gets into a blissfully happy relationship. My
> Dionysian side says to get lost in the depression of the moment, and
> get all curious about where this'll take Willow. That's what Mrs.
> Quality did (her opinion of the episode is that it was so depressing
> that she can't say whether she "liked" it or not, and she's
> anxious to see the next one... I'd call that a success). In any
> case, the sequence is very well put together, with Warren appearing out
> of a quiet moment (kinda reminiscent of Glory in the tetra-ultimate
> episode of S5), the scene keeping us unclear for as long as possible
> about who's been hurt, and the final moment that helps give the
> episode its title. It's a big moment, in any case, and paves the way
> for more.
The only response that makes sense to me is to watch and see. I think your
contrasting feelings well represent the moment.
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: I have some misgivings, but mostly an important
> episode that delivers.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
As said earlier, Good for me too.
Your reviews could always shock me into something unexpected, but I think
this should end my recent run of huge analyses. These last three episodes
are for me the heart and peak of the season. Which is not to say there
isn't lots cool yet to come. Just that I don't have so much to say about
that.
OBS
Ari
> burt...@hotmail.com responded:
> > When he taunted her that she "came back wrong" in
> > "Smashed," he knew what her mental state was at the time and he knew
> > how much those words would hurt her.
>
> Frex, I did not read Spike's remark as a taunt, nor did I think he had
> any sense that it might hurt her. And in the context of "Smashed," I
> didn't see Buffy being hurt by the comment--on the contrary, Spike
> seems to be the *one* person who genuinely understands that it is
> possible to "come back wrong"--which Buffy herself has been suspecting
> and fearing; his confirmation of what she suspects is a huge relief to
> her (in my reading), whereas Tara's reassurance that she's "just fine"
> is devastating to her. Because if she "came back wrong," then her
> behavior--especially her failure to connect emotionally with anyone or
> anything in the world--is not her fault, not her responsibility.
>
keep in mind the writers were still on their "bad boyfriend" kick back
then. Besides if Spike wasn't being intentionially malicious towards
her when he taunted her about coming back wrong, that puts him in the
too stupid to (un)live category. ::cries:: I don't want believe that
about my
lust-from-a-safe-distance-but-if-he-was-real-I-would-run-away-screaming
tv boyfriend.
BTR1701
"MBangel10 (Melissa)" <mban...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Spike has no moral compass, he doesn't
> "get" it
Which is pretty much the definition of a sociopath. Ted Bundy didn't "get
it", either. Didn't make him any less a monster. In fact, it's precisely
what made him one in the first place.
A question for AOQ and all the rest of you who are watching these for
the first time on DVD-- how do you avoid the HUGE spoiler that's right
on the DVD packaging itself? I pulled mine out to rewatch one of these
episodes last night and it immediately struck me, how can AOQ not know
where all this is leading if he has the DVD set right in front of him?
Stephen Tempest
>Xander was being a jerk here, but on a basic level, I don't think he
>was out of line at all. Wouldn't you be concerned if you found out that
>one of your friends had been having sex with a serial killer? Even if
>he was in prison at the time?
As I recall, when Xander's friends first found out he was having sex
with an unrepentant serial killer, they mostly made jokes about not
inviting her to parties...
Stephen
MBangel10 (Melissa)
He's not a sociopath, he's a freakin' vampire. Spike was far worse than
Ted Bundy in his glory days I'm sure, so you're point is?
If you're going to compare Ted Bundy to anyone on Btvs, maybe Warren
would be the closest?
Dwayne Johnson
realize that he was hurting Buffy until she kicked him across the room.
His was an act of pure desperation
- wanting to make Buffy "feel" love for him while using the only thing
that he knew she ever responded to with him, sex. The moment he realizes
that he took it too far, and his response "Buffy, I didn't..." was after
she had to use force to stop him. Spike has no moral compass, he doesn't
"get" it until that moment and then what does he do? He runs away
(clearly
shamed).************************************************************************************
Spike forced himself on her in a sexual manner... thats rape. oh and he
said "im going to make you feel it" and she said no but he went ahead
anyways.. and after he said "Buffy, i didn't" SHE cut him off and said
"yeah because i stopped you" everything points to rape. P.S. spike does
in fact know what no means.
BTR1701
"MBangel10 (Melissa)" <mban...@comcast.net> wrote:
> BTR1701 wrote:
> > In article <6ZSdnaaHzK74WXPZ...@comcast.com>,
> > "MBangel10 (Melissa)" <mban...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Spike has no moral compass, he doesn't
> >> "get" it
> >
> > Which is pretty much the definition of a sociopath. Ted Bundy didn't "get
> > it", either. Didn't make him any less a monster. In fact, it's precisely
> > what made him one in the first place.
> >
> > A question for AOQ and all the rest of you who are watching these for
> > the first time on DVD-- how do you avoid the HUGE spoiler that's right
> > on the DVD packaging itself? I pulled mine out to rewatch one of these
> > episodes last night and it immediately struck me, how can AOQ not know
> > where all this is leading if he has the DVD set right in front of him?
>
> He's not a sociopath, he's a freakin' vampire. Spike was far worse than
> Ted Bundy in his glory days I'm sure, so you're point is?
Not much into allegory and metaphor, are you?
Malsperanza
> > any sense that it might hurt her. And in the context of "Smashed," I
> > didn't see Buffy being hurt by the comment--on the contrary, Spike
> > seems to be the *one* person who genuinely understands that it is
> > possible to "come back wrong"--which Buffy herself has been suspecting
> > and fearing; his confirmation of what she suspects is a huge relief to
> > her (in my reading), whereas Tara's reassurance that she's "just fine"
> > is devastating to her. Because if she "came back wrong," then her
> > behavior--especially her failure to connect emotionally with anyone or
> > anything in the world--is not her fault, not her responsibility.
> I think that interpretation's much too gray area for this show, and
> keep in mind the writers were still on their "bad boyfriend" kick back
> then.
I haven't followed any of the writers' remarks about the show. The "bad
boyfriend" theme is a recurrent one in the show, from the beginning.
But I think late s6 is the point when the idea finally begins to be
replaced by more nuanced kinds of choices: not Bad Boyfriends, but
Wrong-for-Me partners--Anya and Xander being the prime case in point.
> Besides if Spike wasn't being intentionially malicious towards
> her when he taunted her about coming back wrong, that puts him in the
> too stupid to (un)live category. ::cries:: I don't want believe that about my
> lust-from-a-safe-distance-but-if-he-was-real-I-would-run-away-screaming
> tv boyfriend.
:-) The best kind... in fiction.
But why would this necessarily make Spike stupid? Surely maliciously
taunting the woman you are desperately in love with would be the
stupid?
I think it makes him (oddly) rather perceptive--which is not usually
his strong suit. Buffy *wants* to be told something went wrong with the
magic, because she knows something is wrong with her & if it's not the
magic, then it's a hideous flaw in her character: a serious loss of
humanity. She's losing the ability to empathize, or even to feel (I
touch the fire and it freezes me). Hence, she's devastated when Tara
gives her the news (which Tara thinks will cheer her up) that
everything was fine with the magic.
If Spike's remark is *not* a taunt, then what he's doing is being
compassionate without letting her see his compassion--that is, without
asking for a payoff in return. He's saying: Hey, Buff, got some
Darkside feelings cooking? Can't blame the magic? Can't blame your
virtuous friends? Need someone to blame? OK, blame me for makin' you do
it; I'll carry that weight for you.
I'm not saying he's a nice or good person for making that offer--it's a
basically corrupt offer--but I do think he's doing it out of a desire
to help.
No one else in the whole bloody show is ever willing to offer to carry
Buffy's weight for her. In s6 they are all notably oblivious to the
idea that she might even need someone to lift the weight--even after
her rather public suicide attempt in OMWF. Except Spike, who does
notice, and even understands. Meanwhile, everyone else is busy
reminding themselves--and Buffy--that Spike is a Thing, without the
capacity to feel empathy. Of course, they are all also doing a stellar
job of failing to empathize with one another, at this point, aren't
they?
It's Spike who offers sympathy to Anya; in their sad little sex scene
he is the one who says, "Shhh..." when she starts blaming herself for
Xander's crass bailout. It's Spike who chooses to reveal his liaison
with Buffy at the one moment when it will make Xander stop slamming
Anya and pause to think. Not so good for Buffy--and certainly didn't do
himself any good in the process--but it was rather gallant, in its way,
toward Anya, wasn't it?
Spike's ability to feel empathy is growing, and gaining range. It now
includes Buffy, Dawn, and Anya, and occasionally others. As the others
are struggling with their own self-involvement, he is growing less
self-motivated.
In other words, I think the whole "bad boyfriend" concept is too
simple, too black-and-white, to describe the situation of the main
characters at this stage; I think they have indeed entered a gray area
where the good guys are less different from the evil ones than they
would like to think. Consider Clem.
~Mal
Ken from Chicago
"ravimotha" <ravi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1156516110.7...@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>
> Ken from Chicago wrote:
>> >
>> >> Then of course, tragedy strikes. I'm assuming Tara's dead here,
>> >> since, well, she looks dead, and V'ir xabja gung fur jbhyqa'g
>> >
>> > whedon is quite willing to kill major characters like jenny or wash or
>> > doyle
>> > to prove the situation is as dire as it seems
>>
>> See how he soars.
>>
>> > arf meow arf - nsa fodder
>> > ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
>> > if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
>>
>
>
> I think it's actually one of the marks that sets Joss apart from the
> other writers out there.
>
> A criticism of lots of shows (especially where there is mild to real
> peril), is that the central characters are bullet proof.
>
> By making any character cannon fodder, the sense of peril is magnified.
>
> <spoilage ahead>
> In Serenity , by Killing Shepherd Book , we open the possibility that
> people are going to get more casualties.
> By killing Wash we open up the fact that ANYONE could by the farm.
>
> but thsi means that last few minutes.. is tense and properly so...
>
> regards
> Ravi
>
Have you seen tv in this millennium? Characters have been bumped off left
and right.
-- Ken from Chicago
Malsperanza
For that matter, Buffy is the one who goes out every night, chats in a
friendly sort of way with chummy, foolish vamps, and then dusts them.
Sometimes by the dozen. And we all laugh, because we accept the premise
that dusting vamps is a Good Thing, but dusting humans is Bad, even
when they are Warren.
The show has a fairly confused attitude toward violence, all in all.
Real sociopaths don't learn or change; vampires can, at least Angel
did, and Spike is trying. In the moral universe of the show, one earns
points for trying, and redemption for past crimes is considered
legitimate. Otherwise, would Tara ever possibly be able to forgive
Willow for mind-raping her? Or we buy that forgiveness?
~Mal
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
bundy presumably had a moral compass
he just chose not to listen to it
spike has no moral compass
or if he does it points in completely different direction
Stephen Tempest
>One-sentence summary: I have some misgivings, but mostly an important
>episode that delivers.
>
>AOQ rating: Good
There's lots to say on this episode, but many insightful people have
already said most of it. So instead I'll give a few anecdotes:
The story as I heard it was that Amber Benson turned down the offer of
becoming a regular on the show, as she wanted to keep the freedom to
carry out other projects - I don't know how much truth there is in
that. Putting her in the credits for this one episode was apparently
intended as a thank-you gesture from Mutant Enemy,. although of ourse
itt's also a way of messing with the fans, and fulfilling the dream
Joss had right back in season 1 of putting Jesse in the credits only
to kill him off next episode.
When they were filming the Willow-and-Tara-in-bed scenes, the props
department came up with some red satin sheets. Unfortunately they
were very _slippery_ red satin sheets... They tried to artfully drape
them over the actresses to avoid revealing anything unfit for US
broadcast TV, but every time Aly or Amber moved, the sheets slid right
off onto the floor...
Also, as part of their acting for this scene the two of them were
engaged in a certain amount of stroking and fondling each other... and
apparently they occasionally got carried away, to the extent that the
director had to ask them to tone it down or the episode would be
unbroadcastable. :)
On a different note, James is on record as saying that the attempted
rape scene was the most difficult he's ever performed - not surprising
really; he says he can't even _watch_ such scenes on TV or in films as
a viewer, and here he was having to act one out himself. Making
things worse, he's a Method actor. He expresses admiration for Sarah's
ability to turn on the emotions at the touch of a button: she can be
laughing and chatting on set, then they call 'action' and she's
instantly and perfectly in character. He can't do that, though: he
has to feel the appropriate emotions himself, work himself up into the
same emotional state as the character he's meant to be portraying.
When you're portraying a rapist, that can't really be healthy for your
own psyche... He also felt that the scene comes across as harsher and
more jarring on-screen than was originally intended, because the
actors' own distress was shining through.
And finally, in the scene where Willow is splashed by Tara's blood,
apparently they had to re-take that scene something like 14 times
boefore they got the blood-splatter looking right. So by the end of
it Aly was feeling pretty distressed herself... as the commentary
says, those aren't fake tears she's crying.
Speaking of magic bullets, there's an exit wound in Tara's chest and
Willow was standing right in front of her. So shouldn't she have been
hit by the same bullet?
Anyway...
Stephen
Stephen Tempest
>No kidding. It's usually referred to as 'The AR' , which is a handy
>abbrevation - trust me.
Except that for some reason my brain insists on trying to process the
'A' as 'anal' rather than 'attempted'.
Which disturbs me unduly... and now I've shared that little fact, it
can disturb all of you as well. <g>
Stephen
Stephen Tempest
>No the writers aren't nice people. Poor Tara.
She had what was quite probably the happiest day of her entire life,
then died painlessly and almost instantly.
I think 'poor Willow' is more on the mark...
(naq cbbe jneera, rira zber fb...)
Stephen
MBangel10 (Melissa)
I am very much into good allegory and metaphor. That wasn't it.
vague disclaimer
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1156486738.4...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Six, Episode 18: "Seeing Red"
>
> It's all Dawn's fault.
I was with you all the way up to here...
One Bit Shy
news:1156540814.2...@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
> Hi there,
Hi.
> I've been lurking recently, as I've been watching Buffy for the first
> time on more or less the same schedule as this discussion.
Well, this is a good thoughtful post to unlurk with.
> I find myself in whichever subcategory of the fandom is particularly
> interested in s6 in Buffy and Spike's parallel struggles to recover
> their humanity, their attempt to enlist each other as "rescuers," and
> the confusion they both experience between being in love and being
> rescued.
I hadn't been thinking of rescue as a description, but I like it. No single
word can really describe the full dynamic of this relationship, but that's a
worthy element that I'd like to think about more and incorporate into my own
view. Thank you.
> I think, in short, that he was genuinely trying to help, not acting out
> of selfishness. Spike's fairly perceptive about Buffy by this
> point--perhaps because she already has one foot in his Dark world, and
> he has half a foot in the human world. But his only comparable
> experience is with Drusilla (whom he seems genuinely to have cared
> for). I think he believes that Post-resurrection Buffy is some sort of
> Ubervampire, only without the, youknow, bloodsucking.
I'm sort of half with you and half not on this. I think Spike in both the
balcony scene and in telling Buffy that she came back wrong was trying to
speak the truth and did believe it was something that Buffy needed to hear -
something that would help Buffy find her true self. From his point of view,
part of the rescue you referred to. So, he wouldn't consider these
incidents as hurting Buffy in the sense that he meant when he said he
doesn't hurt her.
But they did hurt Buffy. I'm pretty confident Spike knew full well that
they did. That he both crafted the messages and timed them to make sure
they hurt. Buffy coming back wrong is practically hurled in her face just
to tear her down and strip away her damned superiority about being above
Spike. The whole point of that was to bring Buffy down to his level. In
the balcony scene you have Buffy wistfully looking on her friends, longing
to feel with them like the old days, when Spike pounces with the message
that she can't have them. She doesn't belong there.
So they hurt. And they're terribly predatory. But it's intended as a tough
love kind of hurt. Love hurts. Truth hurts. Those are truisms to Spike,
and that kind of hurt isn't bad. Not something you inflict upon someone,
but rather gift them with. He really did believe it was for Buffy's own
good. He's not too good at getting the true implications of what he is and
does sometimes. That no soul thing.
So, it's kind of an ambiguous area.
There's one thing about the examples, though, that's not ambiguous.
Something that really does separate them from the attempted rape scene
they're being compared too.
They're not physical. There's been rough sex. Spike tried to stop Buffy
from going to the cops. (A scene that was much more about Buffy hurting
Spike anyway.) But the only scene I can recall right now where he
deliberately hurts Buffy in a physical sense is in Smashed - which was just
to prove that he could - that the chip wouldn't stop him. And even then it
proved to be foreplay leading up to sex.
OBS
One Bit Shy
news:l64o-1rj5-1A928...@europe.isp.giganews.com...
> In article <12euv4b...@news.supernews.com>,
> "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1156486738.4...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> > Season Six, Episode 18: "Seeing Red"
>>
>> It's all Dawn's fault.
>
> I was with you all the way up to here...
What? You don't like my theory? Gee, and I put so much thought into it.
OK. I'll toss that. There must be a way to blame Clem...
OBS
BTR1701
"MBangel10 (Melissa)" <mban...@comcast.net> wrote:
Don't blame me. It was Whedon who first introduced the
Spike-as-serial-killer concept into the series.
BTR1701
<mair_fheal-1F011...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Why would you presume that? Bundy was a sociopath. By definition they
have no sense of right and wrong. Just what will benefit them and please
them and what won't.
Ari
> Makes sense. I'm not sure how many people will agree with this, but I
> think Xander's fault here is that he gives in to anger, NOT that he's
> sticking his nose into something that's not his concern. If you have
> close friends, your personal life *is* their concern. And while they
> don't have the right to give you orders, friends do have the right to an
> opinion about your choices, and to speak up if they think you're making a
> mistake. That's what friends are for.
No matter how close, there are some things that some females don't want
to confide to their guy friends about, and vice-versa. Maybe they don't
think they would understand and if their instincts tell them that, then
they're probably right. Note how it was Willow she first attempted to
let in on her secret, while with Xander, I don't think it ever once
crossed her mind to go to him.
Furthermore, it's perfectly reasonable and within Buffy's rights as an
adult human being living in a free country to expect her friends and
family to not be all up in her grill 24/7 the way Xander always is. I
don't care how loyal he is, Buffy's way too out of his league to be
putting up with his periodic bouts of self-righteous obnoxious
behavior. No, I'm not a Xander hater, and I even get some of his anger
at her, just saying that even though it's in character for her not to,
Buffy should have told him what's the what: She's boss. He's minion.
And he sould stop acting like he's her daddy because dammit it's
creepy. And not the fun, interesting kind of creepy, like for instance,
Spike and Drusilla were together.
> Is she still emotionally unwilling to let Spike die? Or does she just want
>to have the whole incident over with for now, without any further delay for
>staking? Something about the way she says "Don't ... just don't..." makes
>me think t's that third option, nothing to do with whether Spike lives or dies.
And why can't it be both? Fact is Buffy does care about Spike and it
wouldn't be realistic for those feelings to disappear in an instant
like that. Given more time and distance to think about what he tried to
do to her, I can see her anger at him either build to a boiling rage or
subside to some degree.
MBangel10 (Melissa)
Just out of curiosity, who do you compare Bram Stoker's Dracula to?
Opus the Penguin
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Second, why isn't Buffy fighting harder? We know
>> she's as strong as he is, even after you factor out the element
>> of surprise, so lying there weakly squirming and pleading for so
>> long before finally bothering to kick him across the room doesn't
>> seem to make sense to me - why hold back? Doesn't quite play
>> right.
>
> people sort of fighter. We almost never see Buffy wrestling, and
> when we do, she doesn't do all that well at it. Wrestling is all
> about leverage and stuff, and technique can count a lot more than
> strength.
>
Perhaps. I think she just doesn't want to hurt Spike.
--
Opus the Penguin
The best darn penguin in all of Usenet
vague disclaimer
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "vague disclaimer" <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote in message
> news:l64o-1rj5-1A928...@europe.isp.giganews.com...
> > In article <12euv4b...@news.supernews.com>,
> > "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> >
> >> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:1156486738.4...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> >>
> >> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> >> > Season Six, Episode 18: "Seeing Red"
> >>
> >> It's all Dawn's fault.
> >
> > I was with you all the way up to here...
>
> What? You don't like my theory? Gee, and I put so much thought into it.
> OK. I'll toss that. There must be a way to blame Clem...
>
> OBS
You think you're the only one who gets to be a smart-arse? I mean, nice
satire on the let's-go-out-of-our-way-to-blame-anyone-but-the-one-
whodunnit school of shipperdom, but Halfrek's clearly the culprit. If
she hadn't blundered in and reminded Spike of
Cecily-the-great-lost-love, who knows where his head would be?
> You know why. Spike's answer to that is the only one he knows that's
> conceivably possible - by his way of thinking. It's just one too many times
> of Buffy pretending otherwise. There's just one possible reason why Buffy's
> let Spike live all these years, spent all the time she has with him, let him
> be such a part of her life. She has to love him. The way he loves her.
> (More parallel with Anya.)
And this leads us back to our (seems ages ago now) discussion about
denial and displacement.
Spike's never denied anything (vaqrrq ur arire qbrf, rira jura orngvat
qbja bar uvf uvf ivpgvz'f bssfcevat. Ur ghearq naq sbhtug gur qrzba. Ohg
ur arire qravrq vg). Spike lived because he was defenceless. He knows
that and imagine how that would eat him up. His instant fascination
(School Hard), a couple of right-royal kickings and then neutering.
Hardly surprising that it was a dream that gave him his 'oh God, no'
moment. What is a misty-eyed romantic killing machine to do? Deny his
nature? Or let it twist into a tortured obsession that was only ever
going to end in one way?
So what does he do next?
V unir n farnxvat fhfcvpvba gung NbD unfa'g gnxra gur puvc onvg. Might
be mistaken though.
Malsperanza
One Bit Shy wrote:
> I'm sort of half with you and half not on this. I think Spike in both the
> balcony scene and in telling Buffy that she came back wrong was trying to
> speak the truth and did believe it was something that Buffy needed to hear -
> something that would help Buffy find her true self. From his point of view,
> part of the rescue you referred to.
The "rescue" idea comes through most clearly to me in "Dead Things," in
that odd scene where Spike and Buffy sense each other through the door
of his crypt. The song lyrics say something about "Are you drowning or
waving? I just want you to save me." It's not altogether clear whether
that refers more to Spike or to Buffy, or to both.
I really like that scene, which is full of a sense of the impossible
barriers between them--including all the barriers mentioned by viewers
who don't like Spike,--who, like Xander, know him as a sociopathic
killer, unredeemed. And yet they do sense each other through the door,
which in Romance Novel terms means that they have a Special Bond. And
the show does a good job of convincing us (well, some of us) that it's
so. And then the lyric runs, "We change by the speed of the choices
that we make." Yep.
> So, he wouldn't consider these
> incidents as hurting Buffy in the sense that he meant when he said he
> doesn't hurt her.
>
> But they did hurt Buffy. I'm pretty confident Spike knew full well that
> they did. That he both crafted the messages and timed them to make sure
> they hurt. Buffy coming back wrong is practically hurled in her face just
> to tear her down and strip away her damned superiority about being above
> Spike.
>
> The whole point of that was to bring Buffy down to his level. In
> the balcony scene you have Buffy wistfully looking on her friends, longing
> to feel with them like the old days, when Spike pounces with the message
> that she can't have them. She doesn't belong there.
Or, given the symbolism of the balcony scene, his aim is to convince
her that she and he are both *above* mere humans, sharing a
superiority. This is one of the myths vampires tell each other whenever
they are feeling a bit gloomy, or envious of humans.
Not entirely wrong, either. Buffy *is* superior to everyone else.
That's what it means to be the Slayer. By this point she's superior in
strength to Spike (who has killed 2 Slayers and is as impressive a
vampire as any out there), superior in mojo to Willow (who has used her
skillz to bad ends), superior in fidelity and stoicism and courage and
tenacity and commitment to Xander, who bailed out on the woman he
loved, publicly and crassly. Superior to Dawn, little miss Whataboutme.
She's the Hero, and the fact that she's also miserably unhappy and
lonely doesn't mean that she can just go downstairs and hang with her
chums anymore.
But what Spike actually says to her on the balcony is, "That's not your
world. You belong in the shadows with me... Look at your friends and
tell me you don't love getting away with this right under their noses."
I'm not sure that's quite the same thing as bringing her down to his
level, dragging her down into the evil sordid world of vampiristic
amorality. He seems to be implying that he and Buffy are both just a
whole lot quicker and smarter than other people. Which is true, on the
face of it.
Of course, Spike being Spike (yes: stalker, yes: obsessed, yes: able to
see things only partway, yes: violent and cruel by nature, yes:
ex-murderer, and not merely because he's a carnivore who must eat),
there's no reference either way to the moral implications of what he's
offering her. He's just trying to tell her she needn't be alone,
because she can join him. It's selfish, but from his pov she is already
far beyond Xander, Willow, and the others. And he's never quite
understood what she sees in them. He's been without friends or buddies
for a very long time. Except for Drusilla, he's operated as a loner, as
most vampires do.
> So they hurt. And they're terribly predatory. But it's intended as a tough
> love kind of hurt. Love hurts.
The central metaphor of the show, no? Given the whole Vampirism = Sex
thang.
Every time characters try to have love without pain, they find that it
is phony or shallow or doesn't last. An altogether grim view of
romance, which seems only to be relieved for short periods of freedom
from angst, usually in bed (cf. Tara and Willow). At least, so far.
> Truth hurts. Those are truisms to Spike,
> and that kind of hurt isn't bad. Not something you inflict upon someone,
> but rather gift them with.
I like this. It turns up in "Hell's Bells" :
SPIKE: It's a happy occasion. You meet my friend?
BUFFY: No. Not yet. But she seems like a very nice attempt at making me
jealous.
SPIKE: Is it working?
BUFFY: A little. It doesn't change anything, but if you're wildly
curious, yeah, it hurts.
SPIKE: I'm sorry. ... Or, good!
[...]
SPIKE: I think we'll go.
BUFFY: Go where? To your place?
SPIKE: Yeah, I suppose. That was the idea.
BUFFY: Yeah.
SPIKE: (defensively) Evil.
BUFFY: Of course.
[...]
SPIKE: But it hurts?
BUFFY: Yeah.
SPIKE: Thanks.
BUFFY: (to herself) You're welcome.
> He really did believe it was for Buffy's own
> good. He's not too good at getting the true implications of what he is and
> does sometimes. That no soul thing.
>
> So, it's kind of an ambiguous area.
And certainly not resolved at this point in the story.
> There's one thing about the examples, though, that's not ambiguous.
> Something that really does separate them from the attempted rape scene
> they're being compared too.
>
> They're not physical. There's been rough sex. Spike tried to stop Buffy
> from going to the cops. (A scene that was much more about Buffy hurting
> Spike anyway.) But the only scene I can recall right now where he
> deliberately hurts Buffy in a physical sense is in Smashed - which was just
> to prove that he could - that the chip wouldn't stop him. And even then it
> proved to be foreplay leading up to sex.
And aren't they both laughing during the latter part of it? They both
think it's pretty funny, as well as sexy. When otherwise in s6 do we
see Buffy smiling, much less chuckling? One of the bizarre charms of
the Buffy/Spike relationship is that they genuinely understand each
other at some level, and share a sense of humor.
Or, of course, that could be seen as seriously disturbing and creepy,
if you subscribe to the Spike = Ted Bundy/Charming sociopath
perspective. I think it's fair to say that Buffy is afraid that she is
herself a charming sociopath, or becoming one. And the equation seems
to be: If Spike is an Evil Bloodsucking Fiend, then she is evil too.
If, OTOH, Spike is actually something quite different and much better
than that, then she too can stop worrying about herself--her own soul.
So when he tries to rape her, she gets an answer that is terrifying.
But to be soulless is to be unable to forgive. Forgiveness is one of
those things that rescues people from their own errors.
So yeah, it gets complicated.
~Mal
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> "vague disclaimer" <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote in message
> news:l64o-1rj5-1A928...@europe.isp.giganews.com...
> > In article <12euv4b...@news.supernews.com>,
> > "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> >
> >> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:1156486738.4...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> >>
> >> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> >> > Season Six, Episode 18: "Seeing Red"
> >>
> >> It's all Dawn's fault.
> >
> > I was with you all the way up to here...
>
> What? You don't like my theory? Gee, and I put so much thought into it.
> OK. I'll toss that. There must be a way to blame Clem...
it was clem cheating at kitten poker in life serial
that nudged buffy out of her orbit
and spiralling down to impact spike
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> balcony scene and in telling Buffy that she came back wrong was trying to
by the way the balcony scene is pretty typical of depression
at the time when you need support and human contact the most
depressive do their best to isolate themselves
and repel the people they need the most
One Bit Shy
> But what Spike actually says to her on the balcony is, "That's not your
> world. You belong in the shadows with me... Look at your friends and
> tell me you don't love getting away with this right under their noses."
> I'm not sure that's quite the same thing as bringing her down to his
> level, dragging her down into the evil sordid world of vampiristic
> amorality. He seems to be implying that he and Buffy are both just a
> whole lot quicker and smarter than other people. Which is true, on the
> face of it.
Clarification. I meant the dragging her down to his level to apply only to
the use of Buffy coming back wrong. (As in she's really not human - just
like Spike.) The balcony scene is seduction.
OBS
peachy ashie passion
Well gosh. Thanks for that one!
Malsperanza
One Bit Shy wrote:
> "Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1156556142....@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> > But what Spike actually says to her on the balcony is, "That's not your
> > world.
> Clarification. I meant the dragging her down to his level to apply only to
> the use of Buffy coming back wrong. (As in she's really not human - just
> like Spike.) The balcony scene is seduction.
Yeah, I was just (unfairly) twisting your phrase in order to riff on
the whole looking-up/looking-down thing.
Because there is so much voyeurism in Buffyland and the audience gets
invited into the voyeur mode in all sorts of creepy ways. The balcony
scene is one prime example. (Spike to Buffy: No, don't close your
eyes--might as well be Spike to Viewers: No, don't close your eyes.)
The scene where Spike really does drag Buffy down to a sordid level is
the sex scene behind the dumpster in "Doublemeat Palace." Blech.
~Mal
BTR1701
"MBangel10 (Melissa)" <mban...@comcast.net> wrote:
No one. Dracula is an archetype.
BTR1701
One Bit Shy
> In article <12ev6l5...@news.supernews.com>,
> "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
>> "vague disclaimer" <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote in message
>> news:l64o-1rj5-1A928...@europe.isp.giganews.com...
>> > In article <12euv4b...@news.supernews.com>,
>> > "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:1156486738.4...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>> >>
>> >> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> >> > Season Six, Episode 18: "Seeing Red"
>> >>
>> >> It's all Dawn's fault.
>> >
>> > I was with you all the way up to here...
>>
>> What? You don't like my theory? Gee, and I put so much thought into it.
>> OK. I'll toss that. There must be a way to blame Clem...
>>
>> OBS
>
> You think you're the only one who gets to be a smart-arse? I mean, nice
> satire on the let's-go-out-of-our-way-to-blame-anyone-but-the-one-
> whodunnit school of shipperdom, but Halfrek's clearly the culprit. If
> she hadn't blundered in and reminded Spike of
> Cecily-the-great-lost-love, who knows where his head would be?
OK. There you have it. Dawn, Clem & Halfrek. The real evil trio that's
been manipulating everyone. Why didn't I see it?
>> You know why. Spike's answer to that is the only one he knows that's
>> conceivably possible - by his way of thinking. It's just one too many
>> times
>> of Buffy pretending otherwise. There's just one possible reason why
>> Buffy's
>> let Spike live all these years, spent all the time she has with him, let
>> him
>> be such a part of her life. She has to love him. The way he loves her.
>> (More parallel with Anya.)
>
> And this leads us back to our (seems ages ago now) discussion about
> denial and displacement.
Which I didn't really disagree with then - and still don't. It's just that
I think the behavior modification has had other tangible effect too. Not a
soul inducing one. A Clockwork Orange's message remains true. But
something more fundamental than I believe chains or displacement can
explain. Spike has (or had) made a whole way of life out of his situation
that is unique to human or vampire that has become strikingly persistent,
self perpetuating, even expanding. Aspects of which persist even without
the influence of the chip. The chip and the obsession - however one wants
to term them - are surely the root cause. But I'm not convinced they hold
him there anymore by themselves.
That's not to say that it's necessarily stable or endurable in a long run.
This very episode might have broken it. And again, this is not me taking
the Spike has grown a soul tack.
I think that's about as much as I can say without getting into spoiler
territory. We'll probably need one more visit to the subject.
> Spike's never denied anything (vaqrrq ur arire qbrf, rira jura orngvat
> qbja bar uvf uvf ivpgvz'f bssfcevat. Ur ghearq naq sbhtug gur qrzba. Ohg
> ur arire qravrq vg). Spike lived because he was defenceless. He knows
> that and imagine how that would eat him up. His instant fascination
> (School Hard), a couple of right-royal kickings and then neutering.
> Hardly surprising that it was a dream that gave him his 'oh God, no'
> moment. What is a misty-eyed romantic killing machine to do? Deny his
> nature? Or let it twist into a tortured obsession that was only ever
> going to end in one way?
>
> So what does he do next?
>
> V unir n farnxvat fhfcvpvba gung NbD unfa'g gnxra gur puvc onvg. Might
> be mistaken though.
Possibly. But I think you're right. Which is at least a little impressive.
OBS
Rowan Hawthorn
I haven't had time to re-watch this episode, but it seems to me that
Willow was actually standing just slightly to one side of Tara - not
directly in front of her.
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Ken from Chicago
"BTR1701" <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:btr1702-EDDB1A...@news.giganews.com...
> In article <6ZSdnaaHzK74WXPZ...@comcast.com>,
> "MBangel10 (Melissa)" <mban...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Spike has no moral compass, he doesn't
>> "get" it
>
> Which is pretty much the definition of a sociopath. Ted Bundy didn't "get
> it", either. Didn't make him any less a monster. In fact, it's precisely
> what made him one in the first place.
>
> A question for AOQ and all the rest of you who are watching these for
> the first time on DVD-- how do you avoid the HUGE spoiler that's right
> on the DVD packaging itself? I pulled mine out to rewatch one of these
> episodes last night and it immediately struck me, how can AOQ not know
> where all this is leading if he has the DVD set right in front of him?
What's does Willow's evil alien clone from the future have to do with this?
-- Ken from Chicago
Opus the Penguin
Since she broke up with him so tenderly with the reasoning that it
wasn't right to use him.
Ari
> But why would this necessarily make Spike stupid? Surely maliciously
> taunting the woman you are desperately in love with would be the
> stupid?
It would make him stupid because anyone who knows Buffy would realize
how hurtful it is to have her think that she's literally damaged goods,
a monster of some sort. For an obsessive psycho like Spike, taunting
the woman he loves with news he thinks will finally bring her down to
his level, makes a lot more sense to me. In his twisted mind, that
means he has a chance with her now.
> Spike's ability to feel empathy is growing, and gaining range. It now
> includes Buffy, Dawn, and Anya, and occasionally others. As the others
> are struggling with their own self-involvement, he is growing less
> self-motivated.
No need to explain. Spike's got layers, I know. I wouldn't be as, um...
heh, freakishly obsessed with him if he was all one-note snark and not
much else. See: Angelus. His whole "Mwuahaha, I'm so eeevil there's no
trace of humanity in me" schtick, never did impress me much. He can be
entertaining at times but all in all he's my least favorite of the
fanged foursome, and I am such a huge fangirl for the other three.
> In other words, I think the whole "bad boyfriend" concept is too
> simple, too black-and-white, to describe the situation of the main
> characters at this stage; I think they have indeed entered a gray area
> where the good guys are less different from the evil ones than they
> would like to think. Consider Clem.
>
> ~Mal
I thought the "bad boyfriend" concept was ridiculous myself, but I do
know from a number of interviews from Joss, Marti and Co. that that's
what they were going for. Even though it ended up looking more like a
mutually abusive relationship, which I prefer over just one of them
being painted as the clear bad guy, that doesn't change the fact that
Spike was not to be seen as a positive force in her life - he was
poison to her, and she him. "Sometimes two people-all they bring each
other is pain," cut to Spike and Buffy. *snort* I mean really people,
anvil much?
And while it's true that in season 6 the show got more gray than it's
ever been, some rules still apply. If they were willing to do away with
it entirely, I doubt the attempted rape would have happened in an
drastic attempt to remind the audience that Spike was still evil and
potentially dangerous, chip or no chip, madly in love or not.
vague disclaimer
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> >
> > And this leads us back to our (seems ages ago now) discussion about
> > denial and displacement.
>
> Which I didn't really disagree with then - and still don't. It's just that
> I think the behavior modification has had other tangible effect too. Not a
> soul inducing one. A Clockwork Orange's message remains true. But
> something more fundamental than I believe chains or displacement can
> explain. Spike has (or had) made a whole way of life out of his situation
> that is unique to human or vampire that has become strikingly persistent,
> self perpetuating, even expanding. Aspects of which persist even without
> the influence of the chip. The chip and the obsession - however one wants
> to term them - are surely the root cause. But I'm not convinced they hold
> him there anymore by themselves.
>
> That's not to say that it's necessarily stable or endurable in a long run.
> This very episode might have broken it. And again, this is not me taking
> the Spike has grown a soul tack.
>
> I think that's about as much as I can say without getting into spoiler
> territory. We'll probably need one more visit to the subject.
Out of interest, are you familiar with the final chapter of Clockwork
Orange? The original US version - and the basis for Kubrick's film - had
20, while the original version had 21 (a reference to the then age of
majority in the UK).
Ken from Chicago
"Opus the Penguin" <opusthepen...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns982B53357248op...@127.0.0.1...
Actually Arbitrar's reaction is the same as Spike's:
Why isn't Buffy fighting back harder?
Answer: Because, yet again, her "No" doesn't mean "No".
Buffy has a history of casual violence, especially towards Spike. She
routinely thinks nothing of punching, kicking of tossing him, from "Fool For
Love", to "Crush" on thru "As You Were" where she punches Spike after he
says she doesn't have to defend against Riley's accusation of being "The
Doctor".
In Spike's mind he took her lack of really fighting back as consent despite
her words--kinda like in "Smashed", "Tabula Rasa", "Dead Things", or even at
the start of "As You Were" outside Buffy's house ... or kinda like Spike's
words in "Gone" that if he can't have all of her then she should just go.
-- Ken from Chicago
P.S. In a court of law with humans, especially in America since the Anita
Hill / Clarence Thomas scandal, things would be different. Every male in the
country since has had anti-sexual harassment training in school, work, the
movies and on tv, over and over again made clear that "No" means "No".
However Spike, being a vampire, born in the 19th century, and given his and
Buffy ... unusual ... history, things are a bit, as Shepard Book would put
it, "fuzzy".
Ken from Chicago
<burt...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1156528713.7...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> MBangel10 (Melissa) wrote:
>> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> > I don't know if we really need to spend a lot of time on why Xander
>> > considers it his business who Buffy lets put their dick in her. The
>> > vibe seems straightforward to me, given that she's his hero and role
>> > model, and it's important to his sense of self to have her as an
>> > invincible force who relies on him. So, disappointment manifests
>> > itself as anger. I'll single out Nick Brendon for a little extra
>> > praise this time for the way he makes it look like part of him is
>> > regretting letting the hurtful little quips come out even as he can't
>> > stop saying them.
>>
>> I haven't watched SR in a long, long time but I remember wanting to kick
>> Xander when he went off on Buffy in that scene.
>
> Xander was being a jerk here, but on a basic level, I don't think he
> was out of line at all. Wouldn't you be concerned if you found out that
> one of your friends had been having sex with a serial killer? Even if
> he was in prison at the time?
Sure. Tho the fact said REFORMED serial killer has saved your life
repeatedly, and even Xander has gone out playing pool with him, and even
defended his Buffybot, would seem to cut some ice.
Plus obviously a lot of transference, lashing out in anger at Spike and
Buffy for Xander's own frustration at what he did ... to Anya--well, that
and what Spike did or more who Spike did.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"MBangel10 (Melissa)" <MBan...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1156529570.6...@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>
> burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> MBangel10 (Melissa) wrote:
>> > Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> > > I don't know if we really need to spend a lot of time on why Xander
>> > > considers it his business who Buffy lets put their dick in her. The
>> > > vibe seems straightforward to me, given that she's his hero and role
>> > > model, and it's important to his sense of self to have her as an
>> > > invincible force who relies on him. So, disappointment manifests
>> > > itself as anger. I'll single out Nick Brendon for a little extra
>> > > praise this time for the way he makes it look like part of him is
>> > > regretting letting the hurtful little quips come out even as he can't
>> > > stop saying them.
>> >
>> > I haven't watched SR in a long, long time but I remember wanting to
>> > kick
>> > Xander when he went off on Buffy in that scene.
>>
>> Xander was being a jerk here, but on a basic level, I don't think he
>> was out of line at all. Wouldn't you be concerned if you found out that
>> one of your friends had been having sex with a serial killer? Even if
>> he was in prison at the time?
>
> Buffy, you'd think the second time he would be a bit more
> understanding. Oh yeah, and speaking of relationships with serial
> killers, didn't he just skip out on Anya?
>
> Oh wait, I keep forgetting that what Angel and Anya did in the past
> doesn't count because they are not Spike. My bad.
Xander has had a history of vamps stealing "his" gal, first Angel, with
Buffy, then Spike with Anya (and Buffy too)
-- Ken from Chicago (who HOPES that's the order Xander's anger against
Spike)
Ken from Chicago
<burt...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1156530819.1...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> has a history of being more concerned about his friends than about
> himself, so the point still stands.
>
>> Oh wait, I keep forgetting that what Angel and Anya did in the past
>> doesn't count because they are not Spike. My bad.
>
>
Sure it is. Strength in numbers. The more common an action is the more
people defend it and accept it.
Plus Xander didn't mind that Anya was a serial killer.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
> but he was out of line in his argument w/ Buffy (i.e. "he's evil. Get
> on me."). He was a great big jerk about it but at least he handled the
> conversation with her much better the second time around. What's funny
> is, as much as he was upset about her having sex with Spike, he was
> just as (if not more so) upset about her not confiding in him about it.
> He may actually have been more understanding of Buffy if said blond
> vampire hadn't just tapped Anya at the Magic Box the night before.
>
Um, Xander was sleeping with a serial killer too.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
>
> MBangel10 (Melissa) wrote:
>> BTR1701 wrote:
>> > In article <6ZSdnaaHzK74WXPZ...@comcast.com>,
>> > "MBangel10 (Melissa)" <mban...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Spike has no moral compass, he doesn't
>> >> "get" it
>> >
>> > Which is pretty much the definition of a sociopath. Ted Bundy didn't
>> > "get
>> > it", either. Didn't make him any less a monster. In fact, it's
>> > precisely
>> > what made him one in the first place.
>> >
>> > A question for AOQ and all the rest of you who are watching these for
>> > the first time on DVD-- how do you avoid the HUGE spoiler that's right
>> > on the DVD packaging itself? I pulled mine out to rewatch one of these
>> > episodes last night and it immediately struck me, how can AOQ not know
>> > where all this is leading if he has the DVD set right in front of him?
>>
>> Ted Bundy in his glory days I'm sure, so you're point is?
>>
>> would be the closest?
>
> For that matter, Buffy is the one who goes out every night, chats in a
> friendly sort of way with chummy, foolish vamps, and then dusts them.
> Sometimes by the dozen. And we all laugh, because we accept the premise
> that dusting vamps is a Good Thing, but dusting humans is Bad, even
> when they are Warren.
>
> The show has a fairly confused attitude toward violence, all in all.
> Real sociopaths don't learn or change; vampires can, at least Angel
> did, and Spike is trying. In the moral universe of the show, one earns
> points for trying, and redemption for past crimes is considered
> legitimate. Otherwise, would Tara ever possibly be able to forgive
> Willow for mind-raping her? Or we buy that forgiveness?
>
> ~Mal
Giles killed a guy in cold blood and succeeded not nearly the hubbub is made
about it versus Spike's ATTEMPTED rape. Wait, that doesn't sound good, more
Spike's attempted seducation, since given Buffy's stronger than he is and
has never been shy about punching, kicking or tossing him about, he took
lack of same as consent.
Similar reaction in BATTLESTAR GALACTICA newsgroups about Kara torturing a
male cylon for information versus female cylon being tortured including
raped.
-- Ken from Chicago
P.S. "Shepard, isn't the Bible kind of specific about killing?" "Very
specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzy around the area of kneecaps."--Gina
Torres & Ron Glass, 'Zoe' & 'Book', FIREFLY, "War Stories".
Ken from Chicago
"Dwayne Johnson" <aba...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:16277-44E...@storefull-3313.bay.webtv.net...
(MBangel10 (Melissa)) typed:That's the thing, Spike didn't truly
realize that he was hurting Buffy until she kicked him across the room.
His was an act of pure desperation
- wanting to make Buffy "feel" love for him while using the only thing
that he knew she ever responded to with him, sex. The moment he realizes
that he took it too far, and his response "Buffy, I didn't..." was after
she had to use force to stop him. Spike has no moral compass, he doesn't
"get" it until that moment and then what does he do? He runs away
(clearly
shamed).************************************************************************************
Spike forced himself on her in a sexual manner... thats rape. oh and he
said "im going to make you feel it" and she said no but he went ahead
anyways.. and after he said "Buffy, i didn't" SHE cut him off and said
"yeah because i stopped you" everything points to rape. P.S. spike does
in fact know what no means.
*** REPLY SEPARATOR (for Mime Quoted Printable) ***
Spike does have a moral compass. That's why he was ashamed at what he did.
However he has TWO moral compasses. His other one was ashamed that he
stopped. He's at war with which compass to follow, like have two backseat
drivers giving him conflicting navigational directions. He has since "Fool
For Love" being trying to follow the good compass, but the evil compass is
still there.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"Stephen Tempest" <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:oo4ve29mog70brv5u...@4ax.com...
> "MBangel10 (Melissa)" <mban...@comcast.net> writes:
>
>>No the writers aren't nice people. Poor Tara.
>
> She had what was quite probably the happiest day of her entire life,
> then died painlessly and almost instantly.
WRITERS ARE EVIL--especially the good ones, worst are the great ones.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.tv.firefly/msg/066f013af18c24b1?hl=en&
> I think 'poor Willow' is more on the mark...
> (naq cbbe jneera, rira zber fb...)
>
> Stephen
Jneera unq vg pbzvat.
-- Ken from Chicago
BTR1701
"Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Giles killed a guy in cold blood and succeeded not nearly the hubbub is made
> about it versus Spike's ATTEMPTED rape.
Because Giles killed one person to save many. How many people were going
to be saved by Spike raping Buffy?
Elisi
Eeek! *scrubs out brain*
Speaking of stuff that's confusing, there is a fic writer who instead
of the commonly used abbrevation 'AU' (Alternate Universe) uses 'AR'
(Alternate Reality) instead. It stops me in my tracks every time. The
characters are _where_?
Elisi
Spike is modelled after that archetype. Not after Ted Bundy. Actually
Spike is modelled after Sid Vicious if you want to go right back to the
inception, but that was more about personality than anything else. By
nature he's a vampire.
And as for Buffy sleeping with him, then we know that the chip didn't
work on Buffy and Spike was indeed 'all snuggles'. Xander has a
lopsided view (which isn't surprising), but he is a jerk in that scene.
Buffy even has to remind him that it was *his* (and the other Scoobies)
fault that she was miserable enough to go to Spike in the first place.
William George Ferguson
Uhaqerqf bs gubhfnaqf bs Horeinzcf :)
--
I have a theory, it could be bunnies
BTR1701
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
Not according to the actual show.
Malsperanza
> Malsperanza wrote:
> > But why would this necessarily make Spike stupid? Surely maliciously
> > taunting the woman you are desperately in love with would be the
> > stupid?
Ari wrote:
> It would make him stupid because anyone who knows Buffy would realize
> how hurtful it is to have her think that she's literally damaged goods,
> a monster of some sort.
True, but doesn't she already think that? Spike isn't telling her
anything she doesn't already know--*except* the specific bit of news
that his chip doesn't work when it comes to striking her. Both of them
jump to the conclusion that the explanation for that must be that she
is--literally--flawed or damaged, because there's no other logical
explanation for it, and both of them take it as immutable proof. BTW,
what *is* the explanation for that? Or is that spoilery?
Spike's delivery ("Don't you see? You came back *wrong*") sounds a bit
tauntlike, but I think it's really a kind of triumph, mixed with hope:
"Don't you see? You and I are alike, and now there's nothing to stop
you from admitting your love!" Spike is deluding himself, but one can
see why.
> For an obsessive psycho like Spike, taunting
> the woman he loves with news he thinks will finally bring her down to
> his level, makes a lot more sense to me. In his twisted mind, that
> means he has a chance with her now.
We're not far apart, in that he does think he has a chance with her
now. From the obessive stalker's pov, it's always a question of "If she
could only see things as I see them, she'd agree with me/love me." But
to be fair to Spike, who is obsessed but not a psycho (and never was:
compare him with Drusilla, who is batshit crazy), he does, in sober
fact, have a chance with Buffy now. As far as the cold evidence goes,
she is well into the dark side, and not only because he's the only
sympathetic friend she's got, but also because one by one her other
friends are all turning on her or from her or otherwise failing her.
Whereas Spike is doing a pretty good imitation of Lancelot,
I get the sense that vampires retain whatever nature they had as
humans, only distilled in some strange way. That is: Human Drusilla was
a nutcase; Human Angel was a berk. Spike... well...
> > Spike's ability to feel empathy is growing, and gaining range. It now
> > includes Buffy, Dawn, and Anya, and occasionally others. As the others
> > are struggling with their own self-involvement, he is growing less
> > self-motivated.
>
> No need to explain. Spike's got layers, I know. I wouldn't be as, um...
> heh, freakishly obsessed with him if he was all one-note snark and not
> much else. See: Angelus.
Yeah, neither Angel nor Angelus interests me much; I don't see the
charisma, though the sulking can be funny.
> > In other words, I think the whole "bad boyfriend" concept is too
> > simple, too black-and-white, to describe the situation of the main
> > characters at this stage; I think they have indeed entered a gray area
> > where the good guys are less different from the evil ones than they
> > would like to think. Consider Clem.
> I thought the "bad boyfriend" concept was ridiculous myself, but I do
> know from a number of interviews from Joss, Marti and Co. that that's
> what they were going for. Even though it ended up looking more like a
> mutually abusive relationship, which I prefer over just one of them
> being painted as the clear bad guy,
Yes, always a more interesting dynamic.
> that doesn't change the fact that
> Spike was not to be seen as a positive force in her life - he was
> poison to her, and she him. "Sometimes two people-all they bring each
> other is pain," cut to Spike and Buffy. *snort* I mean really people,
> anvil much?
Well, yes, but OTOH, how about Smokin' Buffy in OMWF, with all her
friends just standing there, mouths open, waiting for her to combust,
while Spike--the *dead guy*---sings the rescue aria: "Life is just
this/It's living/The pain that you feel/You only can heal/By living."
He's not bad for her then, and he's not causing her pain then, is he?
Or on a number of other key occasions. So one can't really say that the
only thing they bring each other is pain, or that they are poison for
each other. Buffy certainly isn't poison for Spike--she's his hero and
role model, the person who teaches him what a warrior looks like who
has a moral center.
BTW, that lyric reminds me of a bit of dialogue from the Tennessee
Williams play "Orpheus Descending" (i.e., Orpheus in Hell):
"Take me up to Cypress Hill [cemetery] in your car. And we'll listen to
the dead people talk. They do talk there. They chatter together like
birds in Cypress Hill, but all they say is one word and that one word
is 'live.' They say, 'live, live, live, live, live!' It's all they've
learned, it's the only advice they can give--Just live ... Simple! A
very simple instruction."
> And while it's true that in season 6 the show got more gray than it's
> ever been, some rules still apply. If they were willing to do away with
> it entirely, I doubt the attempted rape would have happened in an
> drastic attempt to remind the audience that Spike was still evil and
> potentially dangerous, chip or no chip, madly in love or not.
To be sure. And I don't dismiss the rape attempt as merely one more
Spike seduction--just as Spike himself doesn't. It's beyond the pale,
as he recognizes, which is, I take it, why he leaves. Because he
recognizes that he's got to change something, or he really will rape
her next time. Or kill her, or sire her. A true psycho obsessive would
not leave, I think.
~mal
Malsperanza
> > > > > Don't blame me. It was Whedon who first introduced the
> > > > > Spike-as-serial-killer concept into the series.
> > > > Just out of curiosity, who do you compare Bram Stoker's Dracula to?
> > > No one. Dracula is an archetype.
> > Spike is modelled after that archetype. Not after Ted Bundy.
> Not according to the actual show.
There are some interesting differences between Bram Stoker's version of
Dracula and the pop culture version. Amusing though I thought the cameo
appearance of Dracula in Buffy (whatever season that was), it wasn't a
very complete version of the character. Stoker's Dracula is a much more
complex character, and does, I think, have some elements in common with
Spike.
Of course, Sid Vicious... not a serial killer, but there was the small
matter of Nancy Spungen's death, and his own. If that's the model, then
it tends to argue for the "nothing but big bad for each other" pov.
~Mal
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
>> > Okay, I'm considering instituting a policy that any episode with
>> > Alyson Hannigan sheet-clad so suggestively for so often gets an
>> > automatic Good or higher.
>>
>> A wise policy indeed; though I suspect making it a policy is reduntant, as
>> it will happen naturally anyway.
>
> xraarql?
Jr pna or pbasvqrag gung NBD jvyy engr Gbhpurq nf Tbbq, vs bayl orpnhfr bs
gur Jvyybj-Xraarql fprar. Naq jryy ur fubhyq!
> i dont fall in the camp that spike deserves death for all the people he killed
> anymore than a mountain lion deserves death for all the bunnies it eats
>
> he was doing what was natural for his kind of creature
> and if that endangers humans then he is destroyed
> just like a mountain lion that wanders into a suburb
>
> i dont see it as good or evil but as animal control
I've never really agreed with the idea that vampires are amoral rather
than evil because they're just doing what comes naturally to them. The
thing that stops me is that they don't just feed, they enjoy terrorizing,
tormenting and killing human beings. Some vary on this point in manner or
degree, but we see few if any who are entirely free of it. It seems to be
a standard part of the vampire package. And vampires are created with a
full set of human memories, so it's not like they don't understand that
humans dislike being terrorized, tormented and killed. Not only do they
understand it, they get off on it. That makes vampires evil to me, evil
in a way that lions or sharks are not.
But if vampires *are* just animals doing what comes naturally, that raises
an interesting question: would any moral value attach to Spike dropping
his animal nature and developing a human one?
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
Elisi
BTR1701 wrote:
> > > No one. Dracula is an archetype.
> >
> > Spike is modelled after that archetype. Not after Ted Bundy.
>
> Not according to the actual show.
According to the actual show, he's a vampire - a mystical creature -
who drinks blood to stay alive. Continually trying to create real life
parallels is interesting, sure, but not all that useful. The show
operates on a metaphorical level, not a real world one.
Malsperanza
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > i dont fall in the camp that spike deserves death for all the people he killed
> > anymore than a mountain lion deserves death for all the bunnies it eats
> >
> > he was doing what was natural for his kind of creature
> > and if that endangers humans then he is destroyed
> > just like a mountain lion that wanders into a suburb
> >
> > i dont see it as good or evil but as animal control
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> I've never really agreed with the idea that vampires are amoral rather
> than evil because they're just doing what comes naturally to them. The
> thing that stops me is that they don't just feed, they enjoy terrorizing,
> tormenting and killing human beings.
Spike certainly did--that's canon, no?
> Some vary on this point in manner or
> degree, but we see few if any who are entirely free of it. It seems to be
> a standard part of the vampire package. And vampires are created with a
> full set of human memories
But aren't their memories blunted and hazy? They forget moral concerns
almost immediately. They forget certain emotions too.
>, so it's not like they don't understand that
> humans dislike being terrorized, tormented and killed. Not only do they
> understand it, they get off on it. That makes vampires evil to me, evil
> in a way that lions or sharks are not.
>
> But if vampires *are* just animals doing what comes naturally, that raises
> an interesting question: would any moral value attach to Spike dropping
> his animal nature and developing a human one?
Put it another way: Is there a statute of limitations on all those past
crimes? Spike killed to eat, but also enjoyed it, and enjoyed
inflicting pain and terror. (Cats enjoy wounding mice and chasing them
around.) But then he stopped, and then he actively began working for
the goodguys: killing demons and vampires. In Buffyverse that seems
(maybe) to "count," which helps to explain why we are clearly supposed
to forgive Giles and others who have killed humans at one time or
another.
>From Spike's own (admittedly self-serving) pov, there's nothing to be
done about the past, and he sees little value in wringing his hands
over it. Expiation, in his case, wouldn't be served by some 12-stepper
process. What should he do? Go visit the families of everyone he killed
and ask for forgiveness? Why would they give it to him?
Spike is a kind of pragmatist: the better form of expiation is to help
kill monsters now, and not deal with the past. Which sort of makes
sense. As Casey Stengel said, They say you can't do it, but sometimes
that doesn't always work.
I think the Warren storyline is introduced to revive the question: If
we are tolerant of Spike's past, should we also tolerate Warren, and
leave him to the law? Buffy thinks so--and perhaps her liberalism (or
idealism) is colored by the awareness that she herself is one thin line
away from being viewed as a killer. It is terribly important for her to
believe, on the one hand, that there *is* a difference between killing
humans and killing vampires, but also, on the other hand, that there
*is* a difference between Warren's vicious murders of women and
vampires' murders of their prey.
~Mal
Ken from Chicago
The world--at least from Spike's view of Buffy's clinically depressed state.
OR
One: Either Buffy or ... himself.
-- Ken from Chicago
drifter
> Stephen Tempest wrote:
>> Speaking of magic bullets, there's an exit wound in Tara's chest and
>> Willow was standing right in front of her. So shouldn't she have
>> been hit by the same bullet?
>
> I haven't had time to re-watch this episode, but it seems to me that
> Willow was actually standing just slightly to one side of Tara - not
> directly in front of her.
Besides, like you just said, it was a "magic" bullet. It probably landed
in the basement.
--
Kel
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own."
Rincewind
>> friendly sort of way with chummy, foolish vamps, and then dusts them.
>> Sometimes by the dozen. And we all laugh, because we accept the premise
>> that dusting vamps is a Good Thing, but dusting humans is Bad, even
>> when they are Warren.
>>
>> The show has a fairly confused attitude toward violence, all in all.
>> Real sociopaths don't learn or change; vampires can, at least Angel
>> did, and Spike is trying. In the moral universe of the show, one earns
>> points for trying, and redemption for past crimes is considered
>> legitimate. Otherwise, would Tara ever possibly be able to forgive
>> Willow for mind-raping her? Or we buy that forgiveness?
>>
>> ~Mal
>
> Giles killed a guy in cold blood and succeeded not nearly the hubbub is
> made about it versus Spike's ATTEMPTED rape.
And in Graduation Day Buffy herself decided without esitation to kill Faith
in cold blood to save not the world but only the life of her loved vampire.
And she didn't show any remorse after (yes, Faith was not dead, but Buffy
didn't know this until she saw her in the hospital a lot later).
Somehow this is always forgotten in favor of an unreal portrayal of Buffy as
the perfect hero who would NEVER kill a human.
Rincewind.
--
What I have learned from Buffy:
If a show is good enough for long enough, I will sit through any crap that
it spews at me in the final seasons.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
>> Makes sense. I'm not sure how many people will agree with this, but I
>> think Xander's fault here is that he gives in to anger, NOT that he's
>> sticking his nose into something that's not his concern. If you have
>> close friends, your personal life *is* their concern. And while they
>> don't have the right to give you orders, friends do have the right to an
>> opinion about your choices, and to speak up if they think you're making a
>> mistake. That's what friends are for.
>
> No matter how close, there are some things that some females don't want
> to confide to their guy friends about, and vice-versa.
I don't think that general observation applies to this particular
situation. You say "some things" and "some females." Is Buffy one of
those females? And even if she is, is this one of those things?
(Admitting that she's sleeping with a certain individual is not the same
as giving a detailed account of her last gynecological exam, after all.)
Buffy has long had an extremely tight bond with her friends, one that
other characters remark on, and if she won't tell Xander something
extremely important just because it involves sex, that's not normal and
not a good sign. Speaking of that tight bond, there's Willow --
> they're probably right. Note how it was Willow she first attempted to
> let in on her secret, while with Xander, I don't think it ever once
> crossed her mind to go to him.
Note that Buffy tried to talk to Willow in Smashed, before she actually
started having sex with Spike. After that, she doesn't let Willow in on
the secret any more than she does Xander. She was keeping it from *all*
her friends, and her sister.
> Furthermore, it's perfectly reasonable and within Buffy's rights as an
> adult human being living in a free country to expect her friends and
> family to not be all up in her grill 24/7 the way Xander always is.
I don't see Xander as being "all up in her grill 24/7." (Grill? Oh, you
kids today and your buggin' street slang!) Nor does he "act like her
daddy," or anything remotely like it. That's exaggeration to the point of
total distortion.
> Buffy should have told him what's the what: She's boss. He's minion.
This is the part I *really* disagree with. The idea that Buffy should be
immune to criticism because she's the boss runs directly against
everything the whole show has shown us. On any matter outside of actual
Slayage, Buffy is a human being like everyone else. She's always related
to Willow, Xander and the rest as peers, not inferiors, let alone minions.
The few times she's found herself doing otherwise (e.g. WSWB, Bad Girls),
it's always proved to be a mistake that she later regretted.
Getting back to the original point, you don't have to be watching your
friends like a hawk and trying to micromanage their lives to expect that
they'll come to you when they have Important Life Issues. Again, I think
the latter is what friends are for. (I mean, *close* friends, Whedonesque
created family, not every vaguely pleasant coworker that you occasionally
chat with.) Given his close-friend status, Xander had good reason to feel
upset and threatened that Buffy didn't come to him. His fault lay in his
reaction, giving in to anger and lashing out at Buffy.
>> Is she still emotionally unwilling to let Spike die? Or does she just want
>>to have the whole incident over with for now, without any further delay for
>>staking? Something about the way she says "Don't ... just don't..." makes
>>me think t's that third option, nothing to do with whether Spike lives or dies.
>
> And why can't it be both?
Once again I posit a choice, only to have to admit that, yes, it could be
both. It's getting to be a habit of mine. BTW, in light of the above,
it's interesting that Buffy doesn't tell Willow about the attempted rape,
but she doesn't avoid her or Xander's company either. She hasn't opened
up totally, but she is eager to get back to work and back to her friends.
BTR1701
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes, which is why it's made reference to Spike being a caged serial
killer several times now.
BTR1701
"Rincewind" <rincewi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> > "Malsperanza" <malsp...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >>
> >> For that matter, Buffy is the one who goes out every night, chats in a
> >> friendly sort of way with chummy, foolish vamps, and then dusts them.
> >> Sometimes by the dozen. And we all laugh, because we accept the premise
> >> that dusting vamps is a Good Thing, but dusting humans is Bad, even
> >> when they are Warren.
> >>
> >> The show has a fairly confused attitude toward violence, all in all.
> >> Real sociopaths don't learn or change; vampires can, at least Angel
> >> did, and Spike is trying. In the moral universe of the show, one earns
> >> points for trying, and redemption for past crimes is considered
> >> legitimate. Otherwise, would Tara ever possibly be able to forgive
> >> Willow for mind-raping her? Or we buy that forgiveness?
> >>
> >> ~Mal
> >
> > Giles killed a guy in cold blood and succeeded not nearly the hubbub is
> > made about it versus Spike's ATTEMPTED rape.
>
> And in Graduation Day Buffy herself decided without esitation to kill Faith
> in cold blood to save not the world but only the life of her loved vampire.
> And she didn't show any remorse after (yes, Faith was not dead, but Buffy
> didn't know this until she saw her in the hospital a lot later).
>
> Somehow this is always forgotten in favor of an unreal portrayal of Buffy as
> the perfect hero who would NEVER kill a human.
I haven't forgotten it. However, to say that neither Buffy or Giles has
a moral compass, that they just don't "get" right and wrong, is
fallacious.
BTR1701
"Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
> "BTR1701" <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:btr1702-05DA6F...@news.giganews.com...
> > In article <IM2dnRHdcY_mpm3Z...@comcast.com>,
> > "Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Giles killed a guy in cold blood and succeeded not nearly the hubbub is
> >> made
> >> about it versus Spike's ATTEMPTED rape.
> >
> > Because Giles killed one person to save many. How many people were going
> > to be saved by Spike raping Buffy?
>
> The world--at least from Spike's view of Buffy's clinically depressed state.
Yeah, nothin' like a good raping to snap someone out of a depression...
Elisi
> [Essay writers: want to try to show this as an echo of
> "Innocence?" It could probably be done.]
I'm going to try to take you up on this one. Well sort of - I'm going
to look at motivations and results within the characters.
1) The AR is probably one of the nastiest things ever to have been
filmed. It's raw and unpleasant and in-your-face. And yet I don't think
it is as devastating as the Buffy/Angelus scene in 'Innocence'. It's
all in the why. Spike's act isn't pre-meditated or intentionally
harmful - he's desperate and angry and scared and unable to accept that
Buffy really doesn't want him. He tries to connect in the only way he
knows how, and afterwards he's feeling what might be very well be
actual guilt. It's hard and bright and violent.
Compared with Angelus who goes to Buffy _only_ to hurt her - to tear
down her hopes and dreams and love in the most horrible way imaginable
- and congratulating himself afterwards. It's art.
Of course what matters is the impact on the characters. In 'Innocence'
the effect on Buffy is shattering. One could argue that she's still not
over that shock. The effect on Angelus is minimal - and once he gets
his soul back, it just gets caught up in all the other unbearable
guilt.
In SR the immediate impact on Buffy is of course awful, but she manages
to pick herself up awfully quickly. It was a horrible experience, but
(as OBS said) it's reaffirmed all her reasons for breaking up with
Spike, and finally it would appear that he understands why. For Spike -
who can say? It looks like what happened made him make up his mind one
way or the other, so the impact might be longlasting.
2) But... to look at the thing in a different way. I've been thinking
about S6 and the notion of rape goes straight through - right from the
beginning. In 'Bargaining' the Hellions talk of raping the Scoobies
(gleefully). In 'All The Way' the vamp boys talk of 'going all the
way', using siring as a very transparent metaphor for date rape. This
is followed by Willow's mind rape of Tara. Then there is 'Dead Things'
which is very much about rape - and the nearest we get to seeing it
portrayed until SR. And this is where it gets interesting...
I (and many others) have talked about the parallels between Warren and
Spike. Compare and contrast the two: Warren deliberately sets out to
find someone to make his sex slave. Finding Katrina he goes one step
further - now it's not about the sex - it's about _her_. It's deeply,
deeply disturbing, and Warren is IMHO the creepiest villain BtVS has
ever created - because he's such a human monster. But one who tried to
eradicate the humanity within. When Katrina comes to, he wants to get
her back under the spell, and then uses violence to stop her leaving.
The AR grew out of the circumstances and Spike's despair. And he was
genuinely sorry for what he'd done - he hurt the woman he claimed to
love, and how could that be? This is in direct contrast to Warren's
evolution - Spike used to be the guy who used girls for fun (killing -
we don't know about raping, but it would certainly not surprise me.
Vampire: all about the blood and the sex.) As he himself says back in
the crypt - why _does_ he care? He shouldn't. It's not who he is. And
yet he does.
Warren and Spike have been on opposite paths so far - how will they end
up? Will they be monsters or men at the end? Is there hope for either?
And what do they want themselves?
3) And to briefly touch upon another point that I'm not sure has been
mentioned before - it's not the first time Buffy has had to fight off a
potential rapist. Way back in S1, Hyena!Xander tried the very same
thing - for fun. She hit him over the head with something hard and the
incident was never spoken of again. But still... it bears remembering.