For OBS: Spike in AtS S5.
Elisi
Spike's development had stalled in S5 and he was just being used as
comic relief? You asked me to keep writing (about Spike no less!), and
seriously, that is something I can't resist. So here is what I wrote.
A bit jumbled, but I've been pressed for time recently and I thought
I'd better get this out of the way before you forgot about it
completely!
You had several points, and I'll try to address them all (in as much
as I can remember them). But before I start, I'm going to right back
to the beginning - who is Spike? He gets asked that question three
times(!) in 'School Hard' and these are his responses:
The Anointed One: Who are you?
Spike: Spike.
---
Buffy: Who are you?
Spike: You'll find out on Saturday.
Buffy: What happens on Saturday?
Spike: I kill you.
---
Sheila: Who are you?
Spike: Who do you want me to be?
The first one tells us his name, the second what he does (kills
things), but the third one... oh the third one tells us who he is. Or
rather who he'll be for the next six years on BtVS. He'll change, over
and over again, forever developing, becoming whoever his love wants
him to be (and we learn that he did the same in the past for Dru) (and
Angelus?). The soul possibly being the ultimate expression of this
character trait. In S7 of course he tries to work out what this means,
and for the longest time it would seem that the soul is very little
help at all. Until Buffy gives him the amulet - and finally I think it
all makes sense for him. He might not ever be Buffy's man - but he
_can_ be her Champion. Dying in Chosen being where 'who do you want me
to be?' for Buffy's sake leads him.
He had his 'One Good Day'. And he was finished. And Complete.
*****
Spike's development
So - onto S5 of AtS. You feel that Spike's development in S5 stalls
(post-Damage). Thinking about this, I realised something - something
so obvious that I am almost loath to mention it:
Spike's development in S5 runs contrary to every other character's on
the show.
Look at the beginning: The AI team are all 'motivated go-getters' -
cautious certainly, but quite excited really by all their shiny new
toys and opportunities. Even Angel (although deeply ambivalent about
his new role), is willing to attempt to see what they can do with
these new resources.
Enter Spike - suicidal, being sucked into hell, a ghost and hating it.
Everyone has a just begun a new life, but Spike was _done_ with life.
W&H pretty much is hell on earth for him. But... he's a resilient guy,
and he begins to find reasons for living. Come 'Destiny' he's ready to
grab life and destiny with both hands - except of course it's not that
easy.
Then until 'You're Welcome' he's pretty much divorced from the rest of
the characters, doing his own thing, thinking that maybe that destiny
is his anyway. But as soon as Lindsey gets revealed as fake, Spike
gets something better - Angel's respect.
Cordelia: "And you called this guy the big hero?"
Spike (to Angel): "You called me a hero?"
Angel: "I didn't know you were eating people."
Spike: "It was a taste test, you git."
Until AHITW Spike and the rest are all more or less OK. He's obviously
still helping people, hanging around and feeling a little lost ("I
don't have anywhere else to go..."); and they're all just getting on
with their jobs, fairly comfortable with where they are.
And then Fred dies.
This is the major catalyst for all the characters' arcs, and again we
see how Spike is the flip side to the others. Everyone of the AI gang
is suddenly deeply questioning what they are doing at W&H. They can
see clearly what a huge mistake they made - but they are tied down,
unable to leave. They're all full of guilt - Gunn and Angel (and
Lorne) over Fred, Wesley a little while later over Connor. Illyria is
stuck in a place she despises and then gets stripped of many of her
powers. They're all depressed, hating where they are and what they've
done.
But Spike... he's grieving as deeply as the others of course, but
Fred's death crystallises his decision for him: He wants to stay.
Because it feels like the right thing. Because he loved Fred. Because
he cares about Angel. And because he can make a difference. No longer
'who do you want me to be?' but 'who do *I* want to be?' And _he_ sure
as hell didn't sign any contract with W&H! As the rest are falling
apart, Spike is finally finding himself - at peace (more or less) with
himself and his place in the world.
This of course has a lot to do with what he went through on BtVS. He's
been there and done that when it comes to losing people and doing
something that's unforgivable. As he says:
"Welcome to the planet. We all paint on our happy faces every day,
when all we really wanted is to pound the neighbour's missis, steal
his Ben Franklins, and while we're at it, not think about the third of
the world that's starving to death."
'Underneath'
Spike's adapts, Spike copes, Spike gets on with it. Spike finds a
reason for fighting, and that's what matters to him.
******
Angel as Alpha Male
OK, I don't have the time or inclination to touch this subject except
fairly briefly.
Basically Spike and Angel are completely different characters. We see
from the statements above that Spike is happy to change himself for
the one he loves - and that anyone who gets in his way will get
killed. But Angelus was always about control and dominance - the prime
example being Dru of course. And although he tries to curb this
tendency when souled, he is forever making choices _for_ others. Spike
sees being Alpha Male as killing the opposition (f.ex. in 'School
Hard' he gets rid of The Anointed One). Angelus sees it as
_dominating_ the opposition (see how he treats Spike in S2).
There's an excellent essay about Spike and Angel here that you should
definitely read, all about the whole Alpha Male thing, and the slashy
(sub)text:
http://community.livejournal.com/ship_manifesto/3515.html
As for late S5, then I think Spike quite simply puts Angel where Buffy
was in S7. Angel - like Buffy - is the Big Boss, the leader of his
team, and Spike is there to help out because that's what he's chosen.
It's not that Angel dominates Spike, so much that Spike *lets* Angel
be on top. He didn't in 'Destiny' f.ex, so we know that his following
Angel is voluntary and could end if there was a good enough reason.
This ties in with how I think Spike changes his mind about Angel's
position through S5 - he starts off obviously envious (and
disappointed), but as the season progresses he begins to see just how
constraining and limiting Angel's role is, and how stuck he is. Spike
wouldn't want Angel's job for all the kittens in Korea! And as we saw
in TGiQ Spike and Angelus *did* get on, *did* become the best of
friends (more or less *g*). I think that in S5 that's the sort of
relationship they're moving towards again... there's just a lot of
stuff to get through. The fact that Angel now is the big CEO does not
really affect that.
See when Spike beat Angel in 'Destiny', he took over as 'reigning
champion' (no pun intended). Unlike Angel(us) for whom such a position
would automatically be used at every opportunity to show off to the
world, for Spike it is much more of a private affair. I'm reminded of
'Wrecked':
"You can act as high and mighty as you like Slayer, but I know where
you live now. I've tasted it."
Spike never flaunts his and Buffy's affair under her friends' noses
(compare with f.ex. Angelus telling Joyce), for him it's enough that
she knows who's on top in private (of course it's a lot more complex
than that, but for the sake of brevity yadda, yadda). It's the same
with Angel - Spike has no problem letting Angel be the big boss, or
even with following him. W&H is Angel's place and he makes the rules.
But _privately_, one on one, they both know Spike is the victor. It's
only brought up once, but they both acknowledge where they stand.
SPIKE: You took me on and lost, remember, old man?
ANGEL: Touch Cordelia again... get ready for our very last rematch.
And interestingly, we see that Angel is ready to fight for a woman...
but not for his own 'place in the hierarchy'. This, I think, says
volumes about how he sees himself (and Spike).
*******
Spike as comic relief
There is no point denying that the show uses Spike as comic relief,
but I think you're only seeing half the picture. Let's take the "I'm
listening - with beer!" that you mentioned. It's very funny, but it's
only the beginning - the scene turns on a dime and becomes very
sombre. And it's one of those instances where I'm not sure Angel would
have opened up if it had been anyone except Spike... he's admitting
that he feels guilty over Fred, because he came to W&H - and that it
might not have been Fred's own choice to take the deal. And Spike
helps him ("Bad things always happen everywhere!"). See this is where
Spike 'being Cordy' really kicks in. Cordy was comic relief; she was
the one who told Angel when he was getting out of hand - and she tried
to be some sort of guide. I think Spike probably succeeds better at
the last one. He _understands_ Angel in a way Cordy never did, knows
just how Angel feels, so when he (in Damage) f.ex. says something
profound Angel listens. We see it over and over again in AHITW and
Shells especially... Spike at Angel's side, answering thoughts Angel
has not yet voiced. Yes he's following Angel - but I think this is
where my point from above comes in... he knows that everything is on
Angel's shoulders, and when the chips are down he quite simply wants
to help. He has Angel's back - just like he used to have Buffy's.
That's his role.
Or to take the example of Illyria:
WESLEY: Testing her might be hard without getting someone seriously
hurt.
ANGEL: We'll make Spike do it.
WESLEY: Good.
Yes it's funny - and seems to suggest that nobody cares about Spike
really. But - there's another side. Well 2 actually. First the fact
that Spike _won't_ get hurt...
NINA: Next you're gonna tell me you actually like being a vampire.
ANGEL: Well, being nearly indestructible is cool.
And this is shown very clearly with Spike. Oh Illyria beats him up
plenty, but he doesn't mind in the slightest - he even enjoys it. And
of course in 'Time Bomb' we see that Angel _does_ care. As soon as he
thinks Spike *might* get hurt, he stops the sessions:
ANGEL: You have to stop these sessions.
SPIKE: Now hang on. Just now getting into it. Testing her has
sharpened technique I didn't even know was rusty.
ANGEL: We're not testing her, Spike. She's testing us.
Which brings me to my other point - Spike does very, very well. We see
that time warping aside, Spike can actually take on Illyria, even
before she loses her super-super strength. ("That time-stop thing is a
royal bitch, but I'm starting to suss out her million-year-old moves.
Cheeky mix. Little tae kwon do, little Brazilian Ninjitsu, ancestrally
speaking.")
Which brings me to my main point - Spike isn't pathetic. He was very
often the comic relief during S4 and 5 of BtVS, and although funny it
often has the feel of watching someone kicking a puppy when it's down.
Most of the time in those seasons he's just a loser. He's _not_ in S5
of AtS. Yes he's often used to lighten a situation, but he can more
than take it. He's beaten up Angel - heck he can take on an Elder God.
Yes they could probably have done more with him, but I'm happy with
what we got (that's me - the eternal optimist!). And compared to
say... S4 when he'd turn up for 5 minutes and tell the Scoobies that
he thought they were all stupid and then fall into a grave (OK, so
that last one was S5, but still...), S5 of AtS is good Spike-wise.
The fact that he finished his time in the Joss-verse as a grown-up,
confident, self-possessed fighter for good and a true member of the
team is, when viewed in the light of what he went through, nothing
short of a miracle.
Elisi
One Bit Shy
news:1173791664.3...@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
> Dear OBS.
Oh, no. She's writing me a Dear OBS letter. On the Internet no less. Woe
is me! Oh, the humanity!!
> I presume you remember talking about how you felt that that
> Spike's development had stalled in S5 and he was just being used as
> comic relief?
In a good way.
> You asked me to keep writing (about Spike no less!),
Write. Not run into his arms.
> and
> seriously, that is something I can't resist.
Oh, woe is me....
Feh! I always liked Anya best anyway. So there!
-----------
> So here is what I wrote.
> A bit jumbled, but I've been pressed for time recently and I thought
> I'd better get this out of the way before you forgot about it
> completely!
>
> You had several points, and I'll try to address them all (in as much
> as I can remember them). But before I start, I'm going to right back
> to the beginning - who is Spike? He gets asked that question three
> times(!) in 'School Hard' and these are his responses:
>
> The Anointed One: Who are you?
> Spike: Spike.
> ---
> Buffy: Who are you?
> Spike: You'll find out on Saturday.
> Buffy: What happens on Saturday?
> Spike: I kill you.
> ---
> Sheila: Who are you?
> Spike: Who do you want me to be?
>
> The first one tells us his name, the second what he does (kills
> things), but the third one... oh the third one tells us who he is.
A predator? Please don't forget what his aim for Sheila was. One of the
oft observed characteristics of Spike was his ability to charm. (Fred
brings it up herself this season.) And that specific line is most
recognized as coming from hookers - notable mainly for being an illusion.
It offers pretense, not sincere change.
> Or
> rather who he'll be for the next six years on BtVS. He'll change, over
> and over again, forever developing, becoming whoever his love wants
> him to be (and we learn that he did the same in the past for Dru) (and
> Angelus?). The soul possibly being the ultimate expression of this
> character trait.
You make him sound like a chameleon able to wear any form. But he's not,
and I don't believe he changes that much or that easily. A considerable
part of the BtVS S5 story concerning him is that he *couldn't* change. He
couldn't do the flowers and chocolate bit - and never will be able to. And
he certainly couldn't stop being a vampire.
Dru was used as a parallel to Buffy in order to show Spike's core nature
that wasn't going to change - both tied back to Cecily, the original model
for a dominating part of William's human nature carried foreward. The
defining quality was his obsessive devotion to individual women without
regard to whether anything like it was returned. In the process he'd do
most anything they would demand of him, but he couldn't be anything but
himself. The latter was part of the problem he had with love.
Somewhat a side note. As part of the under-appreciated parallel between
Spike and Anya, you can see that Spike too suffers from selflessness in the
sense that he obsessively seeks to define himself through his women, as Anya
did through her men. The difference, though, is that Spike actually has a
huge self defining ego at war with his selfless desire. One that prevents
him from effectively adapting to his love's desires - except for Dru, who's
desires better matched Spike's, and who was insane enough to lap up Spike's
extravagant obsession. (Buffy was a little bit nuts herself during the
period she turned to Spike.) Anya's self apart from her men is considerbaly
more infantile - self gratifying and ruled by her fear of rejection. But as
long as she isn't rejected, she can be quite adaptive to her man's desires.
As Spike heads out on his soul quest he does not appear to actually believe
in it. He certainly does resent having to do it. He's taking a long shot
because nothing else is left to him. His attitude is actually akin to many
of the things he's done in an attempt to please Buffy. He rails at it. He
knows it's not really him. He resents having to do it. A bunch of things
highlighting how unchanging so much of Spike is. It's just that this time
it miraculously makes a difference. Even a stopped clock is right twice a
day.
> In S7 of course he tries to work out what this means,
> and for the longest time it would seem that the soul is very little
> help at all.
It's never entirely clear. Some trappings change a little - as in he
doesn't go around robbing basements anymore. (Though one suspects he'd not
have much trouble with that should he have good reason to rob again.) He
struggles for a while with some after effects - most of which might be
attributed to The First rather than the soul. Most of the season is spent
getting his old personality back. Buffy does push him that direction, but
it's Robin who actually takes him there. Well, that and enjoying the fight
again. The soul does change him though, becoming more evident at the end as
you note.
> Until Buffy gives him the amulet - and finally I think it
> all makes sense for him. He might not ever be Buffy's man - but he
> _can_ be her Champion. Dying in Chosen being where 'who do you want me
> to be?' for Buffy's sake leads him.
But he's been Buffy's champion before. That was his S5 solution. And it's
notable then because it wasn't something either of them sought or
understood - at least not in the way it happened. When Spike stood up to
Glory, that wasn't Spike adapting to Buffy's desires - he'd already given up
on that. He did it naturally according to his own personality where he
doesn't stand for being bossed around by the likes of Glory and does stand
up for those he cares about - Dawn and Buffy. "That was real." Kind of the
point of the episode.
I don't want to get into the redemptionist argument around that - that's not
where I'm going here.
I'm just pointing out that the champion role that Spike is filling in S7 has
already been shown to be one that fit his nature even when he wasn't being
directed, had little to gain from it (as far as he knew), and didn't have a
soul. It's not so much about change as knowing his true self. Until the
disaster of Buffy's death, which Spike blamed himself for, he was at peace
with that role as at no other time with Buffy until the end of S7 when he
could wear that mantle again more effectively.
> He had his 'One Good Day'. And he was finished. And Complete.
Where I would have been fine with leaving him. I'm not convinced all that
much was done with him in AtS. A closer look at his history with Angel is
interesting - adds some nuance to the past - but addressing that
relationship post-soul isn't terribly interesting to me for Spike's sake.
(It serves more of a function for Angel.)
Damage went further by sort of revisiting his attitude from Lies My Parents
Told Me and revising it to be more mindful of the real evil he had done
pre-soul. But this isn't a dive into consuming guilt like Angel. Instead
he actually identifies with Dana and emphasizes his approach of integrating
the whole of himself by recognizing the monster that's still part of him.
Ultimately the episode represents a refinement more than major
change/growth - albeit a fascinating refinement.
The biggest thing I found done with Spike this season was simply getting him
away from Buffy. (Which doesn't require Angel's presence.) Since the show
is AtS, not BtVS, that effect is more implicit than explicit. But it's
definitely there. By removing the object of his obsession, the show allows
Spike to more clearly settle into his own self without the distortion of
playing to Buffy's desires. That self isn't all that much different than it
was back in Sunnydale - Spike must be Spike - but he doesn't have Buffy to
turn to for approval. He has to choose on his own. There may even have
been a little regression without Buffy making him toe the line, but
ultimately he chooses much the same path he did in Sunnydale - just not so
linked to Buffy.
I had a way too long section written about the effects of Cecily, Dru and
Buffy upon Spike. But they got lost in some weird saving burp that
duplicated an earlier version absent that stuff. (Which is why this post is
delayed.) I'm not going to try to recreate that. The bottom line is that I
believe what Spike got out of Buffy in the end was validation much more so
than direction. All Buffy really did in the sense of change - especially
post-soul - was to insist on Spike's best. The far greater thing she did
was believe in him. The content was crafted by Spike. The soul allowed him
to direct it on terms greater than merely standing by Buffy. It may not
have made him a real boy, but it let him be a real hero.
The notion of him working this out independently from Buffy's watching gaze
kind of gets in the way of him somehow transferring feelings of devotion
towards Angel. I don't really care much for the way this season of AtS
teases at Angel and Spike as a couple. Oh, there's a lot of humor in it.
And a kind of sense to it if you want to go that direction. (The show
didn't have to. Prior to this season, their historic relationship centered
more on their rivalry and Spike coming of age. To a significant degree,
that sense was maintained through Destiny. It also better fits the prodigal
son concept that you introduced to me earlier.) I've listened to the
commentaries and know that Joss came to think of Spike as the perfect match
for Angel.
But I don't like it. I think back to Fool For Love when Spike is shown
coming into his own - where part of the point was Spike achieving something
great that Angelus never had. I think of the larger than life character he
had become in BtVS, culminating in the glorious finale. I don't see any way
of looking at Spike at the end of AtS S5 without seeing him as diminished.
It's not awful, but I really wish they'd found another way.
Yes, but he had already received respect from Buffy when it mattered far
more. I'm sure this moment would be appreciated, but would Spike be so
needy as to be profoundly grateful? He already knew he'd earned that
consideration. Angel was just slow to accept it.
> Until AHITW Spike and the rest are all more or less OK. He's obviously
> still helping people, hanging around and feeling a little lost ("I
> don't have anywhere else to go..."); and they're all just getting on
> with their jobs, fairly comfortable with where they are.
>
> And then Fred dies.
>
> This is the major catalyst for all the characters' arcs, and again we
> see how Spike is the flip side to the others. Everyone of the AI gang
> is suddenly deeply questioning what they are doing at W&H. They can
> see clearly what a huge mistake they made - but they are tied down,
> unable to leave. They're all full of guilt - Gunn and Angel (and
> Lorne) over Fred, Wesley a little while later over Connor. Illyria is
> stuck in a place she despises and then gets stripped of many of her
> powers. They're all depressed, hating where they are and what they've
> done.
>
> But Spike... he's grieving as deeply as the others of course, but
> Fred's death crystallises his decision for him: He wants to stay.
> Because it feels like the right thing. Because he loved Fred. Because
> he cares about Angel. And because he can make a difference. No longer
> 'who do you want me to be?' but 'who do *I* want to be?' And _he_ sure
> as hell didn't sign any contract with W&H! As the rest are falling
> apart, Spike is finally finding himself - at peace (more or less) with
> himself and his place in the world.
He didn't have reason to feel guilty like the others did. So, yeah, it'll
hit him differently.
But I generally agree with what you say about the nature of the decision.
That's in line with what I say above about the value of getting away from
Buffy so he can act without looking to her for approval.
That's nice. Something that should be shown if he's going to have life
after Chosen. But would you have ever doubted back in Chosen that he would
choose this path should the future offer it? This is pretty obvious growth.
It's Chosen Spike asserting himself anew.
> This of course has a lot to do with what he went through on BtVS. He's
> been there and done that when it comes to losing people and doing
> something that's unforgivable. As he says:
>
> "Welcome to the planet. We all paint on our happy faces every day,
> when all we really wanted is to pound the neighbour's missis, steal
> his Ben Franklins, and while we're at it, not think about the third of
> the world that's starving to death."
> 'Underneath'
>
> Spike's adapts, Spike copes, Spike gets on with it. Spike finds a
> reason for fighting, and that's what matters to him.
<shrug> OK. That's not the making of a great story to me. I still see two
great episodes for Spike. Destiny and Damage. Maybe a nod to Soul Purpose
inbetween. Before and after doesn't send me much of anywhere and ultimately
leaves Spike diminished to my eyes. Sorry.
> ******
>
> Angel as Alpha Male
>
> OK, I don't have the time or inclination to touch this subject except
> fairly briefly.
>
> Basically Spike and Angel are completely different characters. We see
> from the statements above that Spike is happy to change himself for
> the one he loves - and that anyone who gets in his way will get
> killed. But Angelus was always about control and dominance - the prime
> example being Dru of course. And although he tries to curb this
> tendency when souled, he is forever making choices _for_ others. Spike
> sees being Alpha Male as killing the opposition (f.ex. in 'School
> Hard' he gets rid of The Anointed One). Angelus sees it as
> _dominating_ the opposition (see how he treats Spike in S2).
>
> There's an excellent essay about Spike and Angel here that you should
> definitely read, all about the whole Alpha Male thing, and the slashy
> (sub)text:
>
> http://community.livejournal.com/ship_manifesto/3515.html
>
> As for late S5, then I think Spike quite simply puts Angel where Buffy
> was in S7. Angel - like Buffy - is the Big Boss, the leader of his
> team, and Spike is there to help out because that's what he's chosen.
> It's not that Angel dominates Spike, so much that Spike *lets* Angel
> be on top. He didn't in 'Destiny' f.ex, so we know that his following
> Angel is voluntary and could end if there was a good enough reason.
Yes, but that's before Damage makes him appreciate Angel's point of view and
before Lindsey humiliated him. I sure hope Spike chose on his own, but the
show beat him down a bit before he made that choice. And if Spike really
puts Angel where Buffy was as you say, then subserviance and devotion have
to be part of the mix. I don't think the show quite got there - thank
heavens Fred provided an independent motivation - but I did feel it
increasingly leaning that direction. The further it goes, the more it
fights the notion of Spike choosing on his own and gaining something by
leaving Buffy.
Angel had his own issues. His ego was ravaged mid-season. Cordelia's
appearance was just the start of building it back up. I'm not sure his
attitude about their fight would necessarily continue. He'd beaten him
before after all, and he attributed this loss to Spike wanting it more. As
Angel's own confidence returns I wouldn't count on him believing that was a
permanent condition.
Still, I wouldn't expect him to be looking for a fight either. One thing I
expected from the beginning was for Angel and Spike to eventually find
stable ground between them at least built on respect if not outright
friendship. It's hard to imagine something else without really mucking up
one or the other's character.
I imagine that some sense of private equal standing is the intent of the
season. Even a little perverse psychology where Spike acts as Buffy to
Angel - but more Spike's version of Buffy than Angel's version. The version
that will hold Angel's feet to the fire when necessary. But the way that
seems to work is to make Spike increasingly look like Angel's nagging wife.
Indeed the description you give of private equal standing vs. public
subserviance is one classic version of a marriage ideal. Not a particularly
feminist one either - assuming you forget that two males are involved. The
objection would be that it rationalizes unequal status by idealizing
non-substantive equality.
On the other hand, they would presumably go with what works. And Spike
really doesn't have a contract with W&H. The end result is still Spike
pretty much doing what Angel says. And I don't care for that as Spike's
ending point.
> *******
>
> Spike as comic relief
>
> There is no point denying that the show uses Spike as comic relief,
> but I think you're only seeing half the picture. Let's take the "I'm
> listening - with beer!" that you mentioned. It's very funny, but it's
> only the beginning - the scene turns on a dime and becomes very
> sombre. And it's one of those instances where I'm not sure Angel would
> have opened up if it had been anyone except Spike... he's admitting
> that he feels guilty over Fred, because he came to W&H - and that it
> might not have been Fred's own choice to take the deal. And Spike
> helps him ("Bad things always happen everywhere!"). See this is where
> Spike 'being Cordy' really kicks in. Cordy was comic relief; she was
> the one who told Angel when he was getting out of hand - and she tried
> to be some sort of guide. I think Spike probably succeeds better at
> the last one. He _understands_ Angel in a way Cordy never did, knows
> just how Angel feels, so when he (in Damage) f.ex. says something
> profound Angel listens. We see it over and over again in AHITW and
> Shells especially... Spike at Angel's side, answering thoughts Angel
> has not yet voiced. Yes he's following Angel - but I think this is
> where my point from above comes in... he knows that everything is on
> Angel's shoulders, and when the chips are down he quite simply wants
> to help. He has Angel's back - just like he used to have Buffy's.
> That's his role.
Most of that is about Angel more than Spike. I think the concept for Spike
works much better for Angel than it does for Spike. The notion of Spike
leaving Buffy so he can be Cordy to Angel is not a selling point for me.
> Or to take the example of Illyria:
>
> WESLEY: Testing her might be hard without getting someone seriously
> hurt.
> ANGEL: We'll make Spike do it.
> WESLEY: Good.
>
> Yes it's funny - and seems to suggest that nobody cares about Spike
> really. But - there's another side. Well 2 actually. First the fact
> that Spike _won't_ get hurt...
>
> NINA: Next you're gonna tell me you actually like being a vampire.
> ANGEL: Well, being nearly indestructible is cool.
>
> And this is shown very clearly with Spike. Oh Illyria beats him up
> plenty, but he doesn't mind in the slightest - he even enjoys it. And
> of course in 'Time Bomb' we see that Angel _does_ care. As soon as he
> thinks Spike *might* get hurt, he stops the sessions:
>
> ANGEL: You have to stop these sessions.
> SPIKE: Now hang on. Just now getting into it. Testing her has
> sharpened technique I didn't even know was rusty.
> ANGEL: We're not testing her, Spike. She's testing us.
Because Spike won't get hurt is why it's funny instead of just mean. You're
rationalizing. Angel dumps on Spike all season.
> Which brings me to my other point - Spike does very, very well. We see
> that time warping aside, Spike can actually take on Illyria, even
> before she loses her super-super strength. ("That time-stop thing is a
> royal bitch, but I'm starting to suss out her million-year-old moves.
> Cheeky mix. Little tae kwon do, little Brazilian Ninjitsu, ancestrally
> speaking.")
I do like Spike with Illyria. I love the first scene with her in Power
Play - a moment where the old observant and insightful Spike really steps
forward. In an imaginary S6 I think he would have the potential to be
nearly as much an influence on her as Wesley might have been. Hell, they
might have been able to build a rivalry out of it. I'm not totally down on
Spike's story. Once through this season there was some real potential for
the future. Alas, it ended here.
> Which brings me to my main point - Spike isn't pathetic. He was very
> often the comic relief during S4 and 5 of BtVS, and although funny it
> often has the feel of watching someone kicking a puppy when it's down.
> Most of the time in those seasons he's just a loser. He's _not_ in S5
> of AtS. Yes he's often used to lighten a situation, but he can more
> than take it. He's beaten up Angel - heck he can take on an Elder God.
> Yes they could probably have done more with him, but I'm happy with
> what we got (that's me - the eternal optimist!). And compared to
> say... S4 when he'd turn up for 5 minutes and tell the Scoobies that
> he thought they were all stupid and then fall into a grave (OK, so
> that last one was S5, but still...), S5 of AtS is good Spike-wise.
Good lord, Spike has grown a hell of a lot since S4 & S5 BtVS. AtS S5
didn't make Spike not a loser. He'd left that mantle behind long before he
showed up in W&H. If you compare him to where he'd been in BtVS S7, then on
the degree of loser scale I'd say he regressed. Besides, Spike's story in
S4 and S5 is great. Especially S5, when it's one of the best character
stories ever in the Buffyverse - light years ahead of what was done with
Spike AtS S5.
> The fact that he finished his time in the Joss-verse as a grown-up,
> confident, self-possessed fighter for good and a true member of the
> team is, when viewed in the light of what he went through, nothing
> short of a miracle.
I'm sorry, but I think he was already there a year before.
OBS
Elisi
First of all sorry that I've been so slow replying. Busy life and all
that - and you had a lot to say! ;)
>> You asked me to keep writing (about Spike no less!),
> Write. Not run into his arms.
If I'd been running into his arms there would have been lingering
descriptions. And possibly pictures. Like... oh say this one:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/elisi/armsofspike.png
*g*
>> The first one tells us his name, the second what he does (kills
>> things), but the third one... oh the third one tells us who he
is.
> A predator? Please don't forget what his aim for Sheila was. One of the
> oft observed characteristics of Spike was his ability to charm.
I do not dispute that - nor the excellent points you bring up about
Spike being unable to change his core being, which remains the same.
_But_ - almost all the mess in S6 comes about because Buffy doesn't
know if she needs Spike to be a monster she can lose herself in, or a
man who can save her (he has fought the darkness inside, so maybe he
can help her do the same). It all comes to a head in Seeing Red of
course:
Spike: "It won't let me be a monster. And I can't be a man. I'm
nothing."
> As Spike heads out on his soul quest he does not appear to actually believe
> in it. He certainly does resent having to do it. He's taking a long shot
> because nothing else is left to him. His attitude is actually akin to many
> of the things he's done in an attempt to please Buffy. He rails at it. He
> knows it's not really him. He resents having to do it. A bunch of things
> highlighting how unchanging so much of Spike is.
Now I'm not so sure about that. Yes he's angry - obviously - and
resentful. But I think he *does* believe in his quest:
SPIKE: She thinks she knows me. She thinks she knows who I am. What
I'm capable of. She has no idea. I wasn't always this way. It won't be
easy, but I can be like I was. Before they castrated me. Before...
Then she'll see who I really am.
Yes it's all stupidly ambiguous so people will think that he wants the
chip out - but we see very clearly that it isn't just about her. It's
about _him_ being good enough, _him_ showing her that she's wrong and
he's right. That he _can_ change. Most of S6 is about the two of the
trying to work out where they are in relation to each other, with
Buffy coming down to his level ("You came back wrong!"). When he
himself proves that he really truly is beneath her, it becomes his
incentive to try to pull himself up to her level.
But onto S5...
> Damage went further by sort of revisiting his attitude from Lies My Parents
> Told Me and revising it to be more mindful of the real evil he had done
> pre-soul. But this isn't a dive into consuming guilt like Angel. Instead
> he actually identifies with Dana and emphasizes his approach of integrating
> the whole of himself by recognizing the monster that's still part of him.
Now I wouldn't say that...
ANGEL: A lot of pain?
SPIKE: More than I'd like. But not as much as you would. Just what I
deserve.
ANGEL: I didn't say that.
SPIKE: No. I did. The lass thought I killed her family. And I'm
supposed to what, complain 'cause hers wasn't one of the hundreds of
families I did kill? I'm not sayin' you're right... 'cause, uh... I'm
physically incapable of saying that. But, uh... for a demon... I never
did think that much about the nature of evil. No. Just threw myself
in. Thought it was a party. I liked the rush. I liked the crunch.
Never did look back at the victims.
No it's not 'all consuming' guilt in that sense, but then he did that
back when he first got the soul. Here he begins to understand a wider
concept of guilt and punishment. It's the flip-side to LMPTM indeed,
recognising that if Wood had killed him, he would have been perfectly
right to do so. And Dana becomes a symbol of the Slayers he killed
(and by extension all his victims). The Chinese Slayer asks him to
tell her *mother* that she's sorry, Nikki begs for her because of her
*son*. No deed exists in isolation:
SPIKE: Yeah. That's what you're remembering-other slayers.
DANA: You killed her.
SPIKE (sadly): Yes. But-
DANA: You killed them both.
SPIKE (whispering): That and worse. But I was never _here_.
DANA: Doesn't matter! Head and heart. Keep cutting till you see
dust.
"I was never _here_'/'Doesn't matter'. That's the lesson he learns.
And I don't think he identifies with Dana - I think it's the other way
round. *She* is like *them*.
But to get to the main bit:
> Where I would have been fine with leaving him. I'm not convinced all that
> much was done with him in AtS. A closer look at his history with Angel is
> interesting - adds some nuance to the past - but addressing that
> relationship post-soul isn't terribly interesting to me for Spike's sake.
> (It serves more of a function for Angel.)
Thinking about it all, I'm beginning to realise that we're coming at
this from completely different angles. Well sort of. Because there's a
whole other side to this, and it is quite simply such a part of how I
see Spike in S5 that it never really occurred to me to spell it out.
The thing is that in many ways I agree with your assessment that
nothing much happens development-wise for Spike (or Angel - at least
until the very end). There is no major arc for either vampire, and yes
Spike (being a mirror for Angel, as well as a Connor-substitute) is
far more important for Angel's story than the other way round. But you
see, it's not just about them individually. I like Spike's arc and I
like Angel's, but compared to other seasons they aren't
scintillating... But looking at them in isolation defies the point.
It's in the space _in between_ that the action takes place. It's in
their _relationship_ where we see the arc and the furious development,
it's in their _interactions_ that we get the story. Like with Buffy
and Spike... except that was (more than anything) a love story. Spike
and Angel's story is different - it's about family (father/son and
brotherly bonds), it's about rivalry and friendship, about love and
hate and being the only two souled vampires in existence.
Seeing that relationship develop, seeing it change from anger and
spitefulness and hate (but with an undercurrent of mutual
understanding), to respect and consideration and mutual support (but
without losing the snark of course), is one of my favourite things
_ever_. It's what makes S5 stand out and shine.
See what I love more than anything is having two characters that you
could stick in an empty room and then just watch them spark off each
other - no props, no plot, no story needed. Spike and Buffy were
always like that. Spike and Angel are the same.
Now before you get any ideas - it's not about sex. There's nothing in
S5 to suggest that they're getting it on (except TGiQ of course, but
it's all silly hints and nothing more). Actually - since I'm on the
subject - I'm putting their 'one time' post-Destiny. I know this
sounds ridiculous, but I read a *fascinating* fic where Spike turns up
in Angel's bedroom the night after the big fight, and encounters a
thoroughly beaten and unguarded Angel:
-----
"The only real thing was here, now, this moment and all that stood
between them. The horror, the ugliness of a past they had tried
desperately to escape, tried desperately to avoid just as they had
avoided each other. Just as they had been afraid to look upon each
other and see everything they had shared. Rage and destruction, death
and chaos, together they had been the cause of it all and relished in
the moment. Savoured every scream, every desperate cry for mercy,
watched and laughed as hope died, replaced by terror as limbs snapped
and eyes closed and bodies were cast battered and broken on the
bloodstained floor.
And then there was nothing, nothing but shame, toxic in its fury that
smothered them in a shroud of confusion, self-loathing and
abandonment...
The hatred Spike felt thawed under the realisation of the truth and
the knowledge that this, this moment was what it was really like to
share the slaughter of innocents with another man."
-----
Wonderful writing - I love how the author took one f the most
ridiculous lines the show ever produced and used it to show the true
darkness of their relationship. And yes, I could see them being
'intimate' at that moment in time - the quiet after the storm, the
counterpoint to the furiously destructive and very, very personal
battle. It would also explain their almost playful jibing in 'Harm's
Way' that really jars with the seething resentment at the end of
'Destiny'.
But to get back on track... It is true that the Spike at the end of
AtS S5 is not very far removed from the Spike at the end of S7. _But_
- his relationship with Angel is so different as to almost be on
another planet. If/when they meet Buffy post-NFA I'd expect her to ask
Angel what the *hell* he was thinking unleashing an apocalypse. And
then Spike (*Spike* of all people!) would defend him! (Even though
Spike probably asked Angel the same thing many times over). And that
is [the main reason] why I love S5 so very much: It took two of my
favourite ever characters, put them together and let them deal with
and move past (most of) the ugliness of their history and established
them as firm brothers-in-arms.
Now you say in your reply that 'Angel dumps on Spike all season'. As
someone who is also rather fond of sweeping statements I'll not take
this too literally, but - I honestly do not see that happening. There
are moments of course - eps. 2-4 being the primary example of Angel
being really very unpleasant, although in many ways he is doing just
what Buffy did in S6 and taking out his issues on Spike, because he in
Spike sees someone like himself (Angel and Buffy are in many ways
very, very similar) [You always hurt the one you love]. The difference
of course being that Spike gives back as good as he gets - he never
lets Angel walk over him the way he did with Buffy. This gets somewhat
alleviated in the hell-and-poetry talk and then doesn't really show up
again until 'Destiny', which is thoroughly nasty - 100+ years worth of
frustration being unleashed in one go, which is probably quite healthy
in that it lets them move on.
And after that - I can honestly not think of a single case of Angel
being deliberately cruel or nasty towards Spike. Heck in 'Damage' he
tries his best to stop Spike from going after Dana on his own, and
it's very obvious that what he *wants* to say is "I care about you -
please don't go out and get yourself killed!" except of course he
can't do that because they're manly men etc. *shakes head fondly*
Going back to my Angel-Buffy parallel there's also the fact that they
don't need to hold back with Spike. We see this very clearly in 'Get
It Done', where Buffy is far more brutal with Spike than anyone else -
because she knows he can take it. The flipped to that is that Spike is
the only one she opens up to. Saying that 'Spike has her back' isn't
just about fights, or Spike backing her up in arguments - it's about
having a place to unload. Angel does exactly the same in S5, only far
more so. You might call it 'dumping' - I call it opening up on a scale
we've rarely seen. Like say House and Wilson (presuming you watch
'House'?). And it's different than Wesley or Cordelia, who are the
ones who usually try to talk to Angel. In 'Numero Cinco' and 'You're
Welcome' we see first one, then the other try to get Angel back on
track, to find the purpose, the mission he lost. That's not Spike's
role - Spike quite simply _understands_ Angel. And over the course of
the season we see how more and more issues are dealt with and stop
being *obstacles* between them, and instead tie them closer together.
TGiQ being the final stage, changing their rivalry over Buffy into
shared loss. She becomes 'their' Buffy.
OK, I'm going to have to stop writing, because it's eating too much
time. I'll just say that for me *personally* I would not for all the
wonders of the world have done without the joy of watching the Spike/
Angel relationship develop. At the end of S7 everyone knew that Spike
and Angel hated each other (or at least disliked each other
intensely). At the end of AtS S5 everyone knew that Spike and Angel
loved each other, even if they'd never say so out loud. And for that
alone Joss will forever have my eternal gratitude!
And as for Season 6... well apparently we'll find out:
"Ryall then told the crowd that Joss Whedon said in the new issues of
Buffy/Angel magazine, "I am talking to Brian Lynch, about doing sort
of a 'season 6 of Angel.'" Ryall then continued, "After Shadow
Puppets, we will be doing some new Angel books, with Brian and Joss,
picking up where the show left off. They will be post-show, and
definitely canon, and co-written by Joss." Presumably this is the
companion to Dark Horse's "Buffy season 8" that fans have been waiting
for."
(http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=105502)
Finally, no matter how fitting and wonderful his death in Chosen, I'll
always be grateful that Spike was brought back. Partly of course
because this means that maybe one day Buffy can settle down with him,
but even more than that because of Angel:
David Fury: Unlike Buffy who ended up with her three friends and were
able to end in that way, in Angel's case, everybody that he's ever
been close to dies, which is really Angel's story - that he will
always outlive the people he cares about. He has gone on and on, he
has seen people he loves die, which is another reason that he and
Buffy realized they couldn't be together. [...] But the fact that he
was side-by-side with Spike was kind of a wonderful turnaround in the
mythology of the series.
Interviewer: There's Butch and Sundance right there.
Once upon a time (post-Smile Time), my dear friend the_royal_anna
wrote a little story about Angel and a string of golden-haired girls
('cause it's always blondes for Angel). You like metaphors, right?
http://the-royal-anna.livejournal.com/27081.html
And then not very long ago I was inspired to write a 'last act' as it
were, inspired by Not Fade Away (and David Fury's comments):
http://the-royal-anna.livejournal.com/27081.html?thread=1176521#t1176521
Reading it through now I almost feel like deleting this whole post,
because that story snippet pretty much says everything I want to say
about why I love that they brought Spike back. Ah well.
Manfred Noland
and drank alcohol as well as blood. He always carried his ZIPPO lighter
too.
on ATS Spike did none of these things...he was some castrated PC
version. Yawn....
Elisi
Well he drove a Viper, drank *plenty* of alcohol as well as blood and
beat up Angel in the biggest, bestest fight ever! Not sure what
happened to the lighter though.
One Bit Shy
Well, that's not a post that brooks much dispute. You like what you like.
(And I yam what I yam.)
I'm glad you so much enjoy the Angel/Spike relationship. It certainly helps
appreciate a series when you really like a core element.
I'm not so convinced that all the subtleties of its development through the
year are that well shown, but then I'm afraid that the concept doesn't much
engage me anyway. Angel/Spike in any sense is not something I've ever
yearned for. The chemistry between them - isn't. Not for me. Sorry. It
doesn't offend me, but it's not a reason for me to like it.
The place I'm coming from is having followed a great individual character -
always larger than life - that I loved, and then seeing him end up so much
smaller. I keep obsessing about his first encounter with Illyria in Power
Play when he pops up from a lurking position to speak directly and
insightfully to her. My reaction to it is probably greater than it
deserves, but the reason is because it suddenly reminds me of what I loved
so much about Spike and get precious little of that season. When I watch
him that season I usually feel like some part of him has been taken away.
-----
Concerning Damage, the pieces you emphasize aren't contrary to what I think.
> It's the flip-side to LMPTM indeed,
> recognising that if Wood had killed him, he would have been perfectly
> right to do so.
That sums pretty well why I connected the episode to LMPTM.
But then there's this:
> And I don't think he identifies with Dana - I think it's the other way
> round. *She* is like *them*.
Now there's a subtlety of distinction that eludes me. I had no direction of
relationship in mind when I made my comment. I was thinking that Spike saw
them all - Spike, Angel, Slayers - as of a kind. Which is not something new
for Spike. Seeing the monster in the Slayer, their dark side, their
attraction to vampires, and so on - that's always been Spike's special
insight into Slayers. He also had his own idea of his relationship to
them - the dance they performed - as shared and equal. And with Buffy he
added making her his role model. Then in Damage he recognizes their shared
victimhood and better appreciates the damage done by the monster inside them
all.
The reason I mentioned this was to point out how Spike reaches for a unified
view of his post-soul self - one that includes the monster and the soul and
the innocent that once was merged. On a fundamental level it goes to Spike
being the sort to bare himself without apology going back at least to Lovers
Walk.
Damage adds depth to his approach, but it's still the same type of solution
we saw from him in BtVS S7. I love the episode, but it's still a subtle
development for him. Not something I just had to have.
-----
Speaking of Damage.
> And after that [Destiny] - I can honestly not think of a single case of
> Angel
> being deliberately cruel or nasty towards Spike. Heck in 'Damage' he
> tries his best to stop Spike from going after Dana on his own, and
> it's very obvious that what he *wants* to say is "I care about you -
> please don't go out and get yourself killed!" except of course he
> can't do that because they're manly men etc. *shakes head fondly*
Angel: Sorry. He's... is pathological idiot an actual condition?
Doctor Rabinaw: May I suggest that you stop your friend? If he finds Dana,
he's gonna end up dead like the others.
Angel: Yeah, but he'll just end up comin' back.
That's from the first time Spike goes after Dana, a sequence where the
dominant expression by Angel is simply wanting Spike anywhere that he's not.
Spike: Explains why that skirt was yappin' at me in Chinese. Must've
thought she was the slayer I took out back in the Boxer Rebellion.
Angel: You mean the slayer you murdered.
Spike: Well, I didn't have a soul back then, did I?
Angel: Right, 'cause having one now is making such a difference.
I realize you were talking about what comes next, but I thought it would be
useful to be reminded of what was said just before. Not exactly being
nice - and in front of a whole room full of people.
I understand that Angel and Spike are going through a lengthy reconciliation
and that Angel does actually care about Spike. But one way or the other
Angel keeps acting to diminish Spike as they do it. Even from within the
relationship you so love, surely you must see that part of it is that Angel
just has to be the alpha dog.
-----
About the soul quest and the extent to which he believes in it. I'm not at
all convinced that he believes it will truly better him - not in any sense
that unsouled Spike really desires (beyond pleasing Buffy - and I'm not sure
he even believes that will work). There is a spiteful edge to what he says
that suggests to me that he still believes that he knows what she really
needs, and what she's convinced herself she wants isn't it. But he'll show
her. He'll prove that he's strong enough to give that to her too. And then
she'll get what she deserves allright!
You reference the following quote:
Spike: She thinks she knows me. She thinks she knows who I am. What
I'm capable of. She has no idea. I wasn't always this way. It won't be
easy, but I can be like I was. Before they castrated me. Before...
Then she'll see who I really am.
Who is Spike talking about? What version of him is that? Doesn't it have
to be William the bloody awful poet? Doesn't it have to be the version of
himself he most holds in contempt?
I don't want to rebuild all the logic of my thinking again, so I'm going to
copy an old post about the soul quest - not the one I did in S6. Much
earlier than that. It's not exactly about this, but it touches upon it.
The main flaw in it is that for some reason I forgot to mention how the chip
didn't work with Buffy, didn't prevent him from going full evil vampire in
Seeing Red, yet he still held back. (Goes to the notion that he no longer
can return to his old vampire ways. Even with the chip gone.)
---
I expect the misdirection of the chip was in considerable part a writing
device to maintain suspense over several shows and to provide the surprise
twist at the season end. Which I personally think is ok. Mystery and
surprise are acceptable in TV series.
But I also think it's more logical and less clumsy than often made out to
be.
That he would decide to go for his soul doesn't require a lot of
explanation. Buffy had once told him directly that she could never love him
because he didn't have a soul. She would make other declarations implying
much the same thing - such as how she could never trust him. But, really,
he didn't need that. He could tell there was a gap in himself that blocked
him from truly winning over Buffy. For two seasons he tried to act like she
would want and constantly failed. One day he'd do something that's
appreciated and the next something that repelled her, which drove him nuts
because he couldn't tell the difference. He was incapable of it. Even
when, in S6, she actually needed him, she eventually rejected him.
And there was always the example of Angel to torment him. The vamp with a
soul. Of course Spike knew the soul was the problem.
But he didn't really want a soul, so he resisted and denied. He needed to
be brought to a hopeless state where nothing else was left. And that
happened following the attempted rape when he finally knew both that a
future with Buffy was impossible and that there no longer was any denying
that the problem was him - not her.
But why all the blather about the chip? It's not directly explained, but I
think it's because there was another fear inside him. That he could never
be a real vampire again. For years he thought the chip was preventing him.
But by this time he also feared that even with the chip gone it still could
never be the same. (There are some strong intimations in that direction.
Such as the S5 episode when Dru came back to "cure" him and enticed him to
drinking from a fresh kill - where upon he promptly chained Dru up and went
back to wooing Buffy. Not quite the reaction Dru was looking for. And then
there's the S6 episode when he thought the chip had stopped working and he
promptly went out for a kill to restore his vampire self. But even before
he found the chip was still working he more than hesitated. He really had
to work himself up to carry it through and never looked as if he really
wanted to.)
Why could be debated forever. Whatever the answer, the consequence is that
he had to have seriously doubted whether returning to full vampire status
could solve his problem. Then he was hit with the light and realized that
it was all the chip's fault. That's what threw him into his neutered state
and opened himself up to Buffy and the knowledge of this human gap in him.
It's that fucking chip that screwed it all up and now he can't go back even
if he got rid of it!!! The final nail. He can't live as he is and he can't
go back. The only choice left is a soul that he really doesn't want and
certainly doesn't understand. But what else is there besides that? (And
cursing that fucking chip.)
Finally - and this is for your benefit, Ken - none of this means any
redemption or repenting or less than evil from Spike at this point. He's
pissed at Buffy something fierce for making him do the last thing he ever
wanted to do. I would suggest that the remarks about giving Buffy what she
deserved are because he expects this to ruin him - for her too. He thinks
he's pretty damn fine the way he is and that Buffy is a moron for not
understanding that. Whatever god only knows kind of pussy comes out of
this, it'll never match the man he is now or be able to satisfy her the way
he can (and did!!). Yeah, he'll show her alright.
OBS
Arbitrar Of Quality
I think the brief discussion of _Street Trash_ got something lodged in
my head, because I read this as "he drank Viper," which is not a good
survival strategy no matter how much of an immortal one is.
-AOQ
~yes, that's my contribution to this thread~
Elisi
> "Elisi" < elis...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news: 1174907150.2...@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com ...
>
> Well, that's not a post that brooks much dispute. You like what you like.
> (And I yam what I yam.)
>
> I'm glad you so much enjoy the Angel/Spike relationship. It certainly helps
> appreciate a series when you really like a core element.
It does indeed. I'm sorry that you don't feel the same way, but then
it'd take a lot for me to enjoy 'Hells Bells' - or even to rewatch it.
>
> Concerning Damage, the pieces you emphasize aren't contrary to what I think.
>
> > It's the flip-side to LMPTM indeed,
> > recognising that if Wood had killed him, he would have been perfectly
> > right to do so.
>
> That sums pretty well why I connected the episode to LMPTM.
>
> But then there's this:
>
> > And I don't think he identifies with Dana - I think it's the other way
> > round. *She* is like *them*.
>
> Now there's a subtlety of distinction that eludes me. I had no direction of
> relationship in mind when I made my comment. I was thinking that Spike saw
> them all - Spike, Angel, Slayers - as of a kind. Which is not something new
> for Spike. Seeing the monster in the Slayer, their dark side, their
> attraction to vampires, and so on - that's always been Spike's special
> insight into Slayers. He also had his own idea of his relationship to
> them - the dance they performed - as shared and equal. And with Buffy he
> added making her his role model. Then in Damage he recognizes their shared
> victimhood and better appreciates the damage done by the monster inside them
> all.
Now I see that, but I think that's just the last few moments, and they
really have more to do with Angel - as in Spike reminding Angel that
they're *more* than just monsters. The main part of Spike's epiphany
is about taking responsibility for his past actions (not that he's
denied his past actions in any way, but he's been trying to distance
himself quite sharply from who he used to be).
Not in this instance, no. "Cause having one now is making such a
difference" could just as well have been spoken by Buffy. It's Angel
trying to get through to Spike - hitting him over the head repeatedly
- to attempt to put a point across, a point he thinks Spike ought to
be able to see perfectly clearly. Buffy would do the same - but Buffy
would also be able to take Spike's hand and take a softer approach.
Angel can't do that. Yes they're continually posturing, but it's quite
simply how they interact - going right back to their first meeting. I
don't see it as somehow inherently trying to diminish each other, more
inherent (brotherly) snark. When the chips are down the whole thing
vanishes into thin air.
But - the point is that at this point Spike is still taking his cue
from Buffy in 'Get It Done':
Buffy: "Fine. Take a cell phone. That way, if I need someone to get
weepy or whaled on, I can call you."
We see it directly in 'Damage':
SPIKE: What do you want me to do? Go all boo-hoo 'cause she got
tortured and driven out of her gourd? Not like we haven't done worse
back in the day.
ANGEL: Yeah, and it's somethin' I'm still payin' for.
SPIKE: And you should let it go, mate. It's startin' to make you look
old.
In the end, Spike acknowledges that Angel was right. (That's not to
say that Buffy was wrong to call him out in 'Get It Done', but it's a
balance). And - as I said above - it's a balance they help each other
achieve. Angel helps Spike to see that their crimes are something that
they'll always pay for - and Spike helps Angel see that monsters not
all they are. Spike really is Angel's perfect match.
Now I don't really dispute any of the above. Well not as such, but
most of it is true. Summing up his attitude to himself in S5 and 6 is
done very well with his words in 'Tough Love': "I'm not good, but I'm
OK!" And if Buffy would just stop being so full of herself, she'd see
that he could be very good for her (just listen to the
Redemptionistas! Spike is the swellest guy ever!). He quite simply
doesn't understand what the problem is - without a soul he is not
capable of grasping it.
> Finally - and this is for your benefit, Ken - none of this means any
> redemption or repenting or less than evil from Spike at this point. He's
> pissed at Buffy something fierce for making him do the last thing he ever
> wanted to do. I would suggest that the remarks about giving Buffy what she
> deserved are because he expects this to ruin him - for her too. He thinks
> he's pretty damn fine the way he is and that Buffy is a moron for not
> understanding that. Whatever god only knows kind of pussy comes out of
> this, it'll never match the man he is now or be able to satisfy her the way
> he can (and did!!). Yeah, he'll show her alright.
No! No no no no no no! That's *terrible*! How did I miss this
interpretation back when AOQ did S6? (I was probably too busy arguing
with burt and BTR...) But seriously - I'd rather go with the misdirect
that he wants the chip out - at least that way he has a single
straight forward objective. Turning his motivation into this twisted,
nasty thing, worthy of Angelus, is not just unpleasant, but utterly
ruins his redemption arc.
See it goes back to 'Entropy':
Spike: "I don't hurt *you*!"
Considering their story so far in S6 this is quite a statement, but
Buffy acknowledges the truth in it. This is the essence of Spike at
that time - he might lie or steal or cheat or anything evil, but he
does NOT hurt Buffy.
And then comes the attempted rape - and not only does he cross the
line that *he* laid down, he doesn't even notice doing it. To quote
ShipperX:
******
See, I think there are fundamental differences in interpretation
because I think the point of the Crypt scene in Seeing Red is to show
that Spike really never comprehended the difference in a real way.
That's the point of being soulless. It's not that they cannot
intellectualize the difference between right and wrong, it's that they
cannot FEEL it. The significance of the crypt scene, and what spurred
him on to Africa, is because for one moment he glimpsed what he didn't
understand (it's the old you don't know what you don't know... until
of course, you're faced with your ignorance). Spike THOUGHT he was as
good as souled, but he was confronted with the dichotomy of the AR. It
violated the promise that he had intended to keep, that he meant to
keep, and that meant something to him... and he didn't even feel the
point where he crossed the line. When he, in shock, was forced back to
look and to realize, he finally "got" that he was missing something,
that something was wrong. And it was wrong because he's in such
confusion. A vampire SHOULDN'T care. A vampire DOESN'T care, and yet
this wasn't something he had intended. He loved her. He really truly
loved her and he would never have intended that, but there it was. And
he wanted to change that, to fix it.
The point, to me, was that he finally "got" that without the soul he
was missing an internal boundary so in a very visceral way (instead of
an intellectual one) he didn't "get" the difference between right and
wrong. He might well be able to read the labels between "this is
right" and "this is wrong" but he couldn't FEEL it and know it on a
gut level until he had the epiphany... and that was in the wake of
"the incident."
*****
That's one part. The other is all that talk about the chip. Yes it's
set up to mislead, but there's another reason:
SPIKE: (desperate) Why do I feel this way?
CLEM: (shrugs) Love's a funny thing.
SPIKE: Is that what this is? (Clem looking uncertain) I can feel it.
Squirming in my head. (puts hand to his head)
CLEM: Love?
SPIKE: The chip. Gnawing bits and chunks.
It's not the chip - it's guilt. Something that he *shouldn't* be able
to feel, and it throws him. But it's that guilt, that shame that makes
him seek out his soul:
SPIKE: Buffy, shame on you. Why does a man do what he mustn't? For
her. To be hers. To be the kind of man who would nev- (looks away) to
be a kind of man.
'Beneath You'
Spike: I hurt you, Buffy, and I will pay. I am paying because I hurt
the girl.
'Help'
"Ask me again why I could never trust you!" Buffy says in SR - and
Spike understands then. So he goes and does the only thing he can,
gets the one thing that'll stop him from ever hurting her again. He is
*not* OK the way he is, and giving him that insight is what the AR is
all about. It's an epiphany. And seeing himself for what he really is
is awful - because he realises that he can't go back. He *has*
changed, but only enough to see how impossible change is. Until of
course he gets his big idea.
But more than that - what does Spike want? What led to the terrible
mess of SR? He wants Buffy to love him. And in SR he finally
understands why she will never, ever do so. Unless...
SPIKE: She shall look on him with forgiveness, and everybody will
forgive and love. He will be loved.
It all goes back to 'Crush':
BUFFY: Please! Spike, you're a vampire.
SPIKE: Angel was a vampire.
BUFFY: Angel was good!
SPIKE: And I can be too. I've changed, Buffy.
Spike often speaks dismissively of Angel and his soul, but a lot of
that comes from jealousy. Buffy _loved_ Angel, looked up to him...
Angel was her hero. And Spike wants that *oh* so badly. He knows that
he is less than his grandsire, and that Buffy is right to look down on
him. And this is where another part of his determination comes from -
he'll show her that he _can_ change, that he _can_ be as good as
Angel. He'll change the rules of the game - because what else can he
do? There is no way he can win the way he is.
He does it to become a better man:
Spike: You had a soul forced on you - as a curse. Make you suffer for
all the horrible things you'd done. But *me*... I fought for my soul.
Went through the demon trials. Almost did me in a dozen times over,
but I kept fighting. 'Cause I knew it was the right thing to do.
'Destiny'
I could look up a whole bunch of other quotes but I think these will
probably do...
I do not dispute the fact that Spike is angry, or that he is railing
against the choice he's being forced to make. But there is nothing
*anywhere* in the show to support your view that he wanted to make
himself *less*. He wanted to become *better* and to make amends, no
matter the price (the price was high and he hated having to pay it).
"Spike looked into his soul at that moment [the attempted rape], and
saw the demon in him, and that's what made him want to go get a
soul .... We did a big ole mislead on you all, where we wanted you to
think he gonna go get the chip out. We knew, the whole time, from the
very beginning he was gonna go get a soul. And when he says I want
Buffy to have what she deserves, he means a lover with a soul." - Jane
Espenson, Buffy writer
Radio interview on the Succubus Club, 5/22/02
Elisi
> You reference the following quote:
>
> Spike: She thinks she knows me. She thinks she knows who I am. What
> I'm capable of. She has no idea. I wasn't always this way. It won't be
> easy, but I can be like I was. Before they castrated me. Before...
> Then she'll see who I really am.
>
> Who is Spike talking about? What version of him is that? Doesn't it have
> to be William the bloody awful poet? Doesn't it have to be the version of
> himself he most holds in contempt?
I am very sorry. That quote is from the shooting script and doesn't
appear on screen. All we have is Clem's "Things change" and Spike's
slow "If you make them!" which shows that he has made a decision of
some sort. Moments before he said "It won't let me be a monster. And I
can't be a man. I'm nothing."
He decided to be a man.
bookworm
sorry to interrupt your insightful extra-long-nearly-private post for a
mundane thought, but wait, I'm not.
IMHO, Spike's character-arc in AtS 5 was coming to terms with his unlife
apart from Buffy, and as a member of the Ministers of Grace (because the
show is called AtS and not Angel & Spike - the Series).
And I have to agree with OBS it's not the most interesting thing in the
world to watch a character just getting along (ats s1 didn't have the
greatest angel-character-arc either) with a few missteps (trusting
lindsey) and be done with it, but it would've been fun (and I still
don't believe in AtS S.6 in comics, sorry) to watch Spike being teared
apart in S.6. as was angel in ats.s2;
(I love the symmetry of it: ats got btvs s.3. and ats s.1 to come to
terms with himself (after the season 2 catastrophe), as did spike in
btvs s.7 and ats s.5 (after the season 6-catastrophe) the only problem I
got was how to fit in btvs s.5, but...
at the end of ats s.1. angel had seemingly figuered it out, as they had
in ats s.5., but what if all what they had thought as true would have
been torn apart and sent to hell, and I believe that was the
character-arc for Spike in s.6, to having found everything (over two
seasons: and ats s.5 did a *good job* in establishing spike as a
respected part of the MoG and being apart from buffy (with only a double
and not an overly romantic appearance of smg herself) to losing it again
and been torn apart (Spike as the second part of season three Wesley,
mmmh...) and that's what I got playing in my head for s.6, just thinking
of what to come, and it makes perfect sense to establish Spike at first,
and rip him apart in the aftermath of an apocalypse (very y - the last
man). maybe they could get brian k. vaughan to write *that* story. or
faith in l.a., that would be cool too...
bookworm
One Bit Shy
news:46097af8$0$25621$91ce...@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at...
It's not private. We're just so long winded and passionate that it feels
that way. ;-)
I'm not sure about the particular ideas for an imagined S6. (I'm kind of
partial to an uncomfortable Spike/Illyria/Wesley (who presumably would have
lived had the series been renewed) triangle in opposition to Angel (under
fire for acting so willfully as to set off an apocalypse) and Gunn. But
whatever it is, I do think Spike was well positioned to be a much more
interesting force in S6.
OBS
Elisi
> sorry to interrupt your insightful extra-long-nearly-private post for a
> mundane thought, but wait, I'm not.
>
> IMHO, Spike's character-arc in AtS 5 was coming to terms with his unlife
> apart from Buffy, and as a member of the Ministers of Grace (because the
> show is called AtS and not Angel & Spike - the Series).
Indeed. And I do love all the characters a great deal... but if I
don't do a narrow focus when I write I'll never finish! ;)
> And I have to agree with OBS it's not the most interesting thing in the
> world to watch a character just getting along (ats s1 didn't have the
> greatest angel-character-arc either) with a few missteps (trusting
> lindsey) and be done with it, but it would've been fun (and I still
> don't believe in AtS S.6 in comics, sorry) to watch Spike being teared
> apart in S.6. as was angel in ats.s2;
>
> (I love the symmetry of it: ats got btvs s.3. and ats s.1 to come to
> terms with himself (after the season 2 catastrophe), as did spike in
> btvs s.7 and ats s.5 (after the season 6-catastrophe) the only problem I
> got was how to fit in btvs s.5, but...
>
> at the end of ats s.1. angel had seemingly figuered it out, as they had
> in ats s.5., but what if all what they had thought as true would have
> been torn apart and sent to hell, and I believe that was the
> character-arc for Spike in s.6, to having found everything (over two
> seasons: and ats s.5 did a *good job* in establishing spike as a
> respected part of the MoG and being apart from buffy (with only a double
> and not an overly romantic appearance of smg herself) to losing it again
> and been torn apart (Spike as the second part of season three Wesley,
> mmmh...) and that's what I got playing in my head for s.6, just thinking
> of what to come, and it makes perfect sense to establish Spike at first,
> and rip him apart in the aftermath of an apocalypse (very y - the last
> man). maybe they could get brian k. vaughan to write *that* story. or
> faith in l.a., that would be cool too...
>
> bookworm
Well We know that they had ideas for S6 - how much of that will be
done in the comics is unknown. And comics are sadly no substitute for
the show. But - it'll be interesting to see where they go,
nevertheless. I've read a lot of very good fanfic, so there's endless
possibilities. :)
One Bit Shy
> On Mar 27, 6:11 am, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>> "Elisi" < elis...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news: 1174907150.2...@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com ...
>> Finally - and this is for your benefit, Ken - none of this means any
>> redemption or repenting or less than evil from Spike at this point. He's
>> pissed at Buffy something fierce for making him do the last thing he ever
>> wanted to do. I would suggest that the remarks about giving Buffy what
>> she
>> deserved are because he expects this to ruin him - for her too. He
>> thinks
>> he's pretty damn fine the way he is and that Buffy is a moron for not
>> understanding that. Whatever god only knows kind of pussy comes out of
>> this, it'll never match the man he is now or be able to satisfy her the
>> way
>> he can (and did!!). Yeah, he'll show her alright.
>
> No! No no no no no no! That's *terrible*! How did I miss this
> interpretation back when AOQ did S6?
The above was from a discussion all the way back in AOQ BtVS S2. I don't
believe I emphasized it the same way when S6 rolled around - something was
different about the context and the things I wanted to emphasize. That's
why I included it here. Someday I want to merge my various thoughts on the
subject into a more complete whole. (I'd like to, for example, point out
how much it must have galled him to have to follow - again - Angel's path.
While simultaneously wondering and fearing deep down that Angel had it right
all along.)
> (I was probably too busy arguing
> with burt and BTR...) But seriously - I'd rather go with the misdirect
> that he wants the chip out - at least that way he has a single
> straight forward objective. Turning his motivation into this twisted,
> nasty thing, worthy of Angelus, is not just unpleasant, but utterly
> ruins his redemption arc.
I don't think so. As you can probably gather, I'm not a Redemptionista.
But you can also probably glean from my other posts that I believe something
unusual and unexpected did happen to Spike as a product of the chip, Buffy,
and his core nature. He crafted a unique creature out of the circumstances
that didn't rest in either the vampire or human world. In Seeing Red that
construct finally broke down - was shown to be non-sustainable. But from
Intervention until Seeing Red it was something pretty amazing.
I'm sure not going to revisit all that. But I would like to revisit for a
moment the big ending of Intervention - which serves as prelude to something
similar in post-soul S7 - where Buffy looks on Spike and sees something
worthwhile in him. A core element of his redemption arc is that he's worthy
of it. It's not something pre-souled Spike understands. It practically
makes him crazy that he doesn't get it. But it does move him.
The only handle he has on it is Buffy's validation. (Which is why Buffy's
S7 declaration is so huge to him.) So Spike's cussed stubborn determination
and chip as whip and a pin-hole of a vision through Buffy's reactions
somehow moves him where he has to go. Frequently in spite of himself. (In
S6, sometimes in spite of Buffy. His falter then can be seen as in part the
faltering of Buffy as her depressed validation misleads Spike.)
The feelings I described above about the soul being a penalty for both are
the confused angry railings of a pre-soul Spike that cannot truly understand
what the soul provides. His model is the way he remembers pre-vampire
William. His weakness then contrasted to the strength Spike acquired once
the soul was gone. A strength that was more than vampire muscle. That was
when he learned how to grasp life and live it fully. I personally cannot
imagine Spike being able to look upon getting his soul back as other than
undoing the greatness of Spike. I see that as what makes him rail so
angrily through the S6 ending sequence, and spit out how he'll give Buffy
what she deserves like it's something he's going to do *to* her rather than
*for* her.
But he still does it. In the classic sense, redemption comes to those that
are worthy, not merely those who want it. It may even come to those who
don't want it at all.
There's a lot more to what makes him do it than what he consciously states.
And in your reaction to my description above, I think you missed one
implicit element in him going for the soul in spite of his feelings about
it. Sacrifice.
That's a pretty good description that I mostly agree with. Though I think I
at least attempted to hit on the idea when I spoke of why the soul.
But I'd like to emphasize again the part that says, "A vampire SHOULDN'T
care." This goes to what I consider to be S6's greatest misdirect - the
chip no longer working on Buffy. A bunch of attention was put on the notion
that Buffy came back "wrong". And it was used to tear down a house and
finally bring on Spuffy sex. And Spike made a big deal about how
everything's different now. But it's what didn't happen - the dog that
didn't bark - that was genuinely important. Nothing prevented Spike from
going full vampire on Buffy, yet he never did. Even in Seeing Red he
stopped when he realized that the line mentioned above had been crossed.
Earlier he submitted to a brutal beating by Buffy, not only failing to
resist, but actually turning from vamp face to human face while it went on.
And all this time that he so much wanted Buffy to join him in the dark, he
never even considered trying to turn her. That's extraordinary. Completely
non-vampire like.
I appreciate what you're saying about Spike's inability to recognize the
line. It's important and a very stark demonstration of the problem. But
it's also not entirely news. He's always known that he doesn't feel what
matters to Buffy - until the sex anyway. And he's always known that the
soul is a distinction that matters to Buffy.
What's genuinely news, genuinely shocking, an earth shaking revelation to
Spike, is that he no longer can be the vampire he was - that the chip is no
longer the excuse. He's stuck on the other side of an ocean he hadn't
realized he had crossed and cannot go back no matter what happens to the
chip.
> That's one part. The other is all that talk about the chip. Yes it's
> set up to mislead, but there's another reason:
Well, you've heard my reason. The chip made it all possible, opened the
door to this ruinous path, and now mocks him in the end by making it useless
to remove it. The damage can't be repaired. Yes, yes, it's a door to
redemption too. But this is a very unhappy Spike looking at his shattered
life. The chip is something to blame. And may I point out that also lets
him blame Buffy a little less.
> SPIKE: (desperate) Why do I feel this way?
> CLEM: (shrugs) Love's a funny thing.
> SPIKE: Is that what this is? (Clem looking uncertain) I can feel it.
> Squirming in my head. (puts hand to his head)
> CLEM: Love?
> SPIKE: The chip. Gnawing bits and chunks.
>
> It's not the chip - it's guilt. Something that he *shouldn't* be able
> to feel, and it throws him. But it's that guilt, that shame that makes
> him seek out his soul:
Maybe. But I'm not ready to go there. And I would note that shame isn't
exactly the same as guilt - or at least it's a subset of it. Shame is more
about failing to meet an understood and agreed upon standard - as in Spike's
oath not to hurt Buffy. And it's also very much about how one is viewed by
others - as in how Buffy now looks upon Spike. Those are concepts even
pre-chip Spike would understand, albeit never apply to a Seeing Red
situation. Though, of course, that Spike wouldn't swear to never hurt
Buffy either. That kind of shame fits Seeing Red, but is still very
different from Angel type guilt.
Be that as it may, this chip reference is too obscurely stated to convince
me that it must be about guilt, though it does seem to be about his
feelings. And to the extent that it's really guilt (or any other feeling)
that "throws" him, please note that he *is* "thrown". I'm not saying that
Spike's analysis of what the chip has done to him is altogether correct or
complete. Just that it's what he puts together and consciously acts upon.
His subsequent decision to make things change sure doesn't come across as an
act of atonement.
> SPIKE: Buffy, shame on you. Why does a man do what he mustn't? For
> her. To be hers. To be the kind of man who would nev- (looks away) to
> be a kind of man.
> 'Beneath You'
Sacrifice.
> Spike: I hurt you, Buffy, and I will pay. I am paying because I hurt
> the girl.
> 'Help'
New perspective.
> "Ask me again why I could never trust you!" Buffy says in SR - and
> Spike understands then.
I'm sorry, but I don't think he understands that any more than he ever did.
He knows it's true because of Buffy's negative reaction - same as always.
What he understands is that the grand solution crafted late S5 and then
expanded upon during Buffy's S6 depression has fallen apart - that it
doesn't work. That he's a failure.
I don't doubt that Spike believes/fears that there's something missing in
him. Actually I don't doubt that he knows he's lost something without the
soul, albeit not necessarily something good. But he remembers pre-vampire
souled-William well enough to know that there was something missing in him
too. He was beneath Cecily as well, remember?
He hears what Buffy wants. He sees Angel as example. And he'll do it
'cause he has to and he loves Buffy and she's the only one who's ever made
him feel like a man and there's nowhere else to go and, and, and. But I
don't think he expects it to do the trick. I think he fears that what's
missing was never there. That the hole is part of who he always was and
shall be.
> So he goes and does the only thing he can,
> gets the one thing that'll stop him from ever hurting her again. He is
> *not* OK the way he is, and giving him that insight is what the AR is
> all about. It's an epiphany. And seeing himself for what he really is
> is awful - because he realizes that he can't go back. He *has*
> changed, but only enough to see how impossible change is. Until of
> course he gets his big idea.
>
> But more than that - what does Spike want? What led to the terrible
> mess of SR? He wants Buffy to love him. And in SR he finally
> understands why she will never, ever do so. Unless...
>
> SPIKE: She shall look on him with forgiveness, and everybody will
> forgive and love. He will be loved.
Do you remember this part?
Spike: Did you make me weak, thinking of you, holding myself, and spilling
useless buckets of salt over your... ending?
I don't think post-soul Spike is the best reference for understanding
pre-soul Spike's motives and feelings. Aside from being batty, his
perspective has changed. And whatever else it is I'm trying to describe,
I'd never deny that he did it for Buffy. Buffy was always the primary
force.
>
> It all goes back to 'Crush':
>
> BUFFY: Please! Spike, you're a vampire.
> SPIKE: Angel was a vampire.
> BUFFY: Angel was good!
> SPIKE: And I can be too. I've changed, Buffy.
>
> Spike often speaks dismissively of Angel and his soul, but a lot of
> that comes from jealousy. Buffy _loved_ Angel, looked up to him...
> Angel was her hero. And Spike wants that *oh* so badly. He knows that
> he is less than his grandsire, and that Buffy is right to look down on
> him. And this is where another part of his determination comes from -
> he'll show her that he _can_ change, that he _can_ be as good as
> Angel. He'll change the rules of the game - because what else can he
> do? There is no way he can win the way he is.
>
> He does it to become a better man:
Or to prove that he can do anything Angel can. That's not convincing.
> Spike: You had a soul forced on you - as a curse. Make you suffer for
> all the horrible things you'd done. But *me*... I fought for my soul.
> Went through the demon trials. Almost did me in a dozen times over,
> but I kept fighting. 'Cause I knew it was the right thing to do.
> 'Destiny'
And you remember what comes right after, don't you?
Spike: It's my destiny.
Angel: Really? Heard it was just to get into a girl's pants.
Don't you think Spike was being just a little -erm- self serving then? That
wasn't the first time he spoke of his destiny, you know. His first comments
on the subject in Just Rewards were:
Spike: I'm not you. I don't give a piss about atonement or destiny.
> I could look up a whole bunch of other quotes but I think these will
> probably do...
>
> I do not dispute the fact that Spike is angry, or that he is railing
> against the choice he's being forced to make. But there is nothing
> *anywhere* in the show to support your view that he wanted to make
> himself *less*. He wanted to become *better* and to make amends, no
> matter the price (the price was high and he hated having to pay it).
He didn't want to make himself less. He didn't *want* to do it at all. He
already told Buffy what she needed. Whatever his failings may be, that
doesn't make him wrong about her. But she won't listen. They never do.
(Except for Dru, but she left, so fuck her.) Consciously he's out to prove
something to Buffy. Prove that he can do anything - even do what Angel did.
Prove that he's worthy. *Is*, not just will be, which might well no longer
be
true then. Prove that he was right about what she needed.
In the bathroom he experienced a moment of horror at what he had done. But
his conversation with Clem wasn't one of horror. It was confusion, anger,
searching for blame and an I'll show you conclusion. Like Crush's grand
gesture to "prove" his love of Buffy by killing his life-long love, Dru.
Spike will destroy himself if he has to so that he can prove it once and for
all to Buffy.
This isn't a sappy story of wondrous ascension. We'll leave that for
Chosen. This is an ugly lurching grasp at a miracle he doesn't believe in
by a monster that doesn't understand what he is, yet is worthy of redemption
in spite of it all. He saved Buffy - and not just on the dance floor. Yet
he thinks he failed. He's readying himself to sacrifice everything for his
love, but thinks he's just proving a point. He doesn't have a clue what
he's doing. It's a fucking miracle.
Spike: So you'll give me what I want. Make me what I was. So Buffy can get
what she deserves.
Right up to the last moment Spike is out to prove something to Buffy, making
it all about giving it to Buffy - good, bad and ugly all mushed together.
It's pre-souled evil vampire Spike's last roar. He hasn't a clue what's
really about to happen. He can't. The revelation is in the soul, not the
imagining of it.
Then he'll find that it's really all about what *he* deserves.
> "Spike looked into his soul at that moment [the attempted rape], and
> saw the demon in him, and that's what made him want to go get a
> soul .... We did a big ole mislead on you all, where we wanted you to
> think he gonna go get the chip out. We knew, the whole time, from the
> very beginning he was gonna go get a soul. And when he says I want
> Buffy to have what she deserves, he means a lover with a soul." - Jane
> Espenson, Buffy writer
> Radio interview on the Succubus Club, 5/22/02
Oh, no, she's rolled out the big guns. It's Jane herself passing judgment!!
;-) Oh, phew! Jane agrees with me.<evil chuckle>
Do you see what I mean? My take on this very much includes giving Buffy a
lover with a soul. It might be some poncy twit dropping by for tea and a
diddle, but he'll have a soul. Might even make Buffy happy, but there'll be
something missing....
We've both talked about Angel, but there's another model Spike has had to
look at too. Riley. You remember how right Spike was about him - how Buffy
needed a little monster in his man. Wouldn't Spike - the real character -
have to imagine the soul taking the monster out of himself? Yeah, maybe
there is a downside to that monster, but it stops him from being Riley.
Stops him from being the poncy part of Angel that he so much holds in
contempt.
Jane doesn't say whether Spike thinks a lover with a soul is a good thing.
(That crafty little minx doesn't actually say much at all. Mainly a chuckle
that they tricked everyone and it was always the soul he was after - which
you and I both agree with.)
Even the part about looking inside himself is less judgmental than it may
seem. It mostly identifies a trigger - which we also both agree with -
absent nuance. For example, we know that when Spike examines it later he's
just as confused at what he didn't do as what he did. It's not just horror
at the terrible demon within. It's wonder at how timid that demon actually
was.
I have to laugh at Jane speaking of Spike looking into his soul - before he
had one - and then deciding to get a soul. An accidental turn of phrase I
expect, but maybe a touch of Freudian Slip too. It serves to remind what a
delicate line we walk examining this - how close to the redemptionista
argument we are. And I'm reminded how we also know that the writers
themselves argued about how evil Spike really was. If you push too far with
what Spike comprehends looking inside, any feelings of guilt he acquires,
motive to be "good" beyond how it would please Buffy, and so on; then you're
increasingly assigning a defacto soul to Spike. IMO that defeats the
purpose of the soul quest far more than what you think my approach does. I
think it's essential for Spike not to understand what he's doing, to include
with it bad motives, the motives of that monster he still is.
I'm reminded a little of the parallel redemption arc going on - Anya. Their
problems are quite different, but they share a lot too. One of them is that
they have to be a demon before they can grow as a human. In Anya's case,
she was such a hopeless human that she needed to be a demon just to
understand what a human actually was by its contrast - and still needed a
second demon stint for the lesson to sink in. But in the end it's not the
demon that needed redeeming - which would almost be a contradiction of
terms - but the woman.
As much as I love Anya's story (even though it got kind of screwed up after
Selfless), Spike's is considerably more complex. Spike needed to be a demon
in order to actually make the man. (Interestingly, Angel doesn't seem to
work as well as parallel for this purpose. I keep coming up with the notion
that Angelus exists to damn the man.) The old William really was a silly
weak fool. Rejecting that to ravage and maim isn't exactly a good
alternative, but that's not the sum of what he did.
Becoming Spike allows him to leave the wuss behind, get some backbone and
some purpose, and go forth and actually accomplish things. No longer the
mama's boy. Spike applies all this in evil fashion, but those changes in
themselves are not bad. In many respects he became far more a man than he
ever was alive. And Spike knew this about himself.
Post soul he'll learn that he didn't leave that man behind with the vampire,
but how could he ever anticipate that? To pre-soul Spike, those qualities
of being a man are directly linked to becoming a vampire - turning evil.
(Buried in this are the reasons I believe he became such a unique vampire
with the chip, but I'm spending way too much time on this as it is.)
So, to me, not believing the soulquest is a good thing is essential and true
to his character.
Besides, the story is just all wrong if his last unsouled act doesn't
strongly reflect the monster in him. What kind of change could this really
be if it doesn't?
One more thing. Through the whole argument I've made, please remember that
it's based on explaining his conscious expressed attitude towards chip and
soul quest. That's not all that moves Spike. He's a roiling mess of
feelings at the end - frequently contradictory. It's not like there's just
one crystal clear element that explains everything. Part of him surely
hopes that, against all odds, he will be made greater. Just as part of him
surely fears that he will fail to win his soul. And every other feeling one
can imagine popping in and out of his mind and heart. Most of all there's
Buffy. There's always Buffy. Can't get her out of his mind any more than
he can the chip. Always besting him. Always showing him to be wrong. It's
infuriating. Yet, there are those moments when he never felt better -
vampire or man. A contradiction that he can't grasp but is forever moved by
come what may.
As I said before, this is an ugly lurch towards the unknown by an angry
confused monster. He's not a real hero yet. He isn't ascending to a higher
plane. (Hell, the trials to follow are worse than the demon trials he knows
about.) He's Spike, the slayer of Slayers, giving up everything he knows is
good in the way he knows good to be, for a damned girl that he's incapable
of letting go of. He may be destroying himself, but he'll damn well make a
show of it in a way Buffy will have to remember.
OBS
Elisi
Writing!) so I'm going to try to just answer a few keypoints out of
your very long and complex post. Sorry if it's kinda dis-jointed, but
I've been working on it on and off... hope I've not mangled things too
badly.
On Apr 3, 5:31 am, "One Bit Shy" < O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> > (I was probably too busy arguing
> > with burt and BTR...) But seriously - I'd rather go with the misdirect
> > that he wants the chip out - at least that way he has a single
> > straight forward objective. Turning his motivation into this twisted,
> > nasty thing, worthy of Angelus, is not just unpleasant, but utterly
> > ruins his redemption arc.
>
> I don't think so. As you can probably gather, I'm not a Redemptionista.
Hm - now in which sense do you use the word 'Redemptionista'? For me
the word specifically refers to the part of fandom who wanted Spike to
achieve 'soulless redemption' (whatever *that* is - please don't start
thinking about it, it'll make your head hurt). They _hated_ the soul
quest, since it 'ruined' their favourite story.
I personally think the story of Spike's redemption is an excellent
one, with the soul being a large and necessary step, but of course
only working as well as it does because of the way it ties into
everything before and after. It's all about the journey.
I just don't think so. He's seen Angel, and quite frankly Spike's
capable of being *more* pathetic than Angel was... and that's nothing
to do with souls, it's about love:
Spike: (yells) What do you know? It's your fault, the both of you! She
belongs with me. (sobs) I'm nothing without her.
Buffy: That I'll have to agree with. You're pathetic, you know that?
You're not even a loser anymore, you're a shell of a loser.
'Lovers Walk'
That was before the chip, before falling for Buffy. The sad loser
("You're beneath me") is still there, right underneath the Big Bad
exterior. The loss of his 'bloodlust' can be blamed on the chip, and
the soul would not affect that.
And as I said - he's seen Angel. Spike knows full well that getting a
soul does not mean losing his demon:
Spike: Pft! I'll see him die soon enough. I've never been much for the
pre-show.
Angel: Too bad. That's what Drusilla likes best, as I recall.
Spike: What's that supposed to mean?
Angel: Ask her. She knows what I mean.
Drusilla has come back to stand behind Spike's shoulder, and he turns
his head to face her.
Spike: Well?
Drusilla: (to Angel) Shhh! Grrrruff! Bad dog.
Angel: You shoulda let me talk to him, Dru. Sounds like your boy could
use some pointers. She likes to be teased.
Spike has finished untying the other bond and throws it to the floor.
Spike: Keep your hole shut! (stands over him)
Angel: Take care of her, Spike. The way she touched me just now? I can
tell when she's not satisfied.
Spike: I said SHUT UP!
He grabs Angel by the throat, lifts him to his feet and holds him
against the bedpost.
Angel: Or maybe you two just don't have the fire we had.
Spike: That's enough.
Angelus is *right there* beneath the surface and the soul does _not_
change that - look at pretty much any interaction between Angel and
(unsouled) Spike and you'll see it - and so does Spike. He'd know that
getting the soul would not somehow magically turn him back into
William - what exactly it *would* do is beyond his understanding, but
he knows that it would probably stop him from ever attacking Buffy
again. They key thing is "I'm a bad poet - but I'm a good man." Which
of course can be contrasted with "I'm a bad, rude man." He wants to be
a *good* man for Buffy, and I think that can only be seen as a
positive. Getting the soul is a short-cut towards that, and one that
he's not happy to take, but he's blown every other option.
> But he still does it. In the classic sense, redemption comes to those that
> are worthy, not merely those who want it. It may even come to those who
> don't want it at all.
>
> There's a lot more to what makes him do it than what he consciously states.
> And in your reaction to my description above, I think you missed one
> implicit element in him going for the soul in spite of his feelings about
> it. Sacrifice.
I'm sorry, but it reminds me of this:
BUFFY: This is the plan? You're gonna steal R.J. by being trisected?!
DAWN: What am I-gonna compete with you? You're older and hotter and
have sex that's rough and kill people. I don't have any of that stuff.
But if I did this then his whole life he'd know there was someone that
loved him so much they'd give up their life.
I hope Spike is *slightly* more mature than a 16-year-old.
The main point for me is that he *wants* to be better. He's seen that
the fault lies with him, and he's angry at himself and angry at her
because she undone him completely ("This thing, with you - it's wrong.
I'm not a complete idiot!") and he's now going to turn his back on
everything he knows to try to be good enough for her.
See I think we just see it completely differently. You think he hates
what he's forced to do, because he thinks it'll make him (even more)
pathetic. I can't see that. As far as I can tell he takes a desperate
course of action - but it's something he thinks will *finally* put him
on an even playing field with her. Everyone's always looked down on
him because he's soulless, but he'll show them - he can be just as
good! Which is where the catch-22 comes in, and is why I love it.
Because what the soul does is show *just* how far beneath her he
really is. He thought the soul would _fix_ things and instead it
showed him how things could *never* be fixed.
In a way it's like Fred and Gunn - he killed her professor, because if
she did it, he'd lose her. But in doing so, _she_ lost _him_.
> He didn't want to make himself less. He didn't *want* to do it at all. He
> already told Buffy what she needed. Whatever his failings may be, that
> doesn't make him wrong about her. But she won't listen. They never do.
The bathroom scene was the last, desperate attempt at making her see
that he was right ("Trust is for old marrieds...") - and then with a
huge giant crash he came down to earth. He _wasn't_ right. She was. He
could never, ever be good enough for her, and she _couldn't_ trust
him. He _hurt_ her. She might have a lot of darkness in her, might
need some monster in her man, but if we look at 'Intervention' we see
that dark and nasty is not how he wants their relationship to be. He
wants her to be attracted to it, but he's as tender with the Bot as he
was with Dru. It was _Buffy_ who set up their relationship to be about
violence, but he knows that this was not how she behaved with Angel.
Spike wants the romance, but she won't have it from him - because he
doesn't have a soul.
SPIKE: I've been all wrongheaded about this. Weeping, crawling,
blaming everybody else. I want Dru back, I've just gotta be the man I
was, (stands proud) the man she loved.
'Lovers Walk'
This could almost be used word for word about Seeing Red, but with a
slight change:
"I've been all wrongheaded about this. Weeping, crawling, blaming
everybody else. I want Buffy back, I've just gotta be the man he
[Angel] was, the man she loved."
It simple and straightforward, but I think he _hates_ having to admit
that she was right.
BUFFY: (calmer) I have feelings for you. I do. But it's not love. I
could never trust you enough for it to be love.
> (Except for Dru, but she left, so fuck her.) Consciously he's out to prove
> something to Buffy. Prove that he can do anything - even do what Angel did.
> Prove that he's worthy. *Is*, not just will be, which might well no longer
> be
> true then. Prove that he was right about what she needed.
>
> In the bathroom he experienced a moment of horror at what he had done. But
> his conversation with Clem wasn't one of horror. It was confusion, anger,
> searching for blame and an I'll show you conclusion. Like Crush's grand
> gesture to "prove" his love of Buffy by killing his life-long love, Dru.
> Spike will destroy himself if he has to so that he can prove it once and for
> all to Buffy.
Hmmm. His conversation with Clem (and himself) goes so many different
places that it always blows me away. It's the mirror to the chuch
scene in 'Beneath You' I think - he's veering wildly from one side to
the other, almost in the way of Gollum... And yes there's horror in
there. The way the glass snaps in his hand gives me shivers.
SPIKE: (shakily) What have I done?
Beat. Spike frowns, looks bemused.
SPIKE: Why *didn't* I do it? (looks up at the ceiling, sighs) What has
she done to me?
Those two lines - damn JM acts his socks off. "What have I done?" He's
almost in tears then, terrified by his actions - the same terror that
was on his face after Buffy kicked him off ("Buffy, my god, I
didn't-"). This is his first and most immediate reaction - he's
haunted by what he almost did. *Then* comes the turnaround - "Why
_didn't_ I do it?" He's evil after all, isn't he? Killing and raping
should be *fun* - so why does he feel so this way?
The keyword is 'change':
SPIKE: (angrily) It's the chip! Steel and wires and silicon. (sighs)
It won't let me be a monster. (quietly) And I can't be a man. I'm
nothing.
CLEM: Hey. Come on now, Mr. Negative. You never know what's just
around the corner. Things change.
SPIKE: Yeah, they do.
Spike gives a bitter sarcastic laugh. Clem looks at him, kind of
helpless. Then something occurs to Spike. His grin turns nasty.
SPIKE: If you make them.
And again later, on the motor bike:
SPIKE: Get nice and comfy, Slayer. I'll be back. And when I do ...
things are gonna change.
Because we've had the 'change' before... from 'Wrecked':
SPIKE: Maybe, but we've been through this, haven't we? Things have
changed.
He thought that being a 'full' vampire with Buffy would change things:
SPIKE: And the next time you come crawling, if you don't stop being
such a bitch, maybe I will bite you.
But he never even tried. He blames the chip for not letting him be a
monster, but - as we both agree - the change has gone far deeper. So
in the choice between monster and man, he only has one option. And I
think he grasps that option with both hands. He'll change alright -
he's not sure what getting a soul means, except that it'll put them on
even footing. And _that_ is something that they've not had since they
were enemies. He wants to be her equal ("We were never together. Not
really. She'd never lower herself that far.").
The 'change' thing also comes up in 'Crush':
SPIKE: Angel was a vampire.
BUFFY: Angel was good!
SPIKE: And I can be too. I've changed, Buffy.
BUFFY: What, that chip in your head? That's not change. Tha-that's
just ... holding you back. You're like a serial killer in prison!
SPIKE: Women marry 'em all the time!
BUFFY: Uhh!
SPIKE: But I'm not ... like that. Something's happening to me. I
can't stop thinking about you.
BUFFY: Uhh.
SPIKE: And if that means turning my back on the whole evil thing-
Which is of course mirrored in 'Beneath You':
SPIKE: Neither do I. I can't say sorry. Can't use forgive me. All I
can say is: Buffy, I've changed.
BUFFY: I believe you.
SPIKE: Well, that's something.
BUFFY: I just don't know what you've changed into. You come back to
town. You make with the big surprises. Twice. I don't know what your
game is, Spike, but I know there's something you're not telling me.
> This isn't a sappy story of wondrous ascension. We'll leave that for
> Chosen. This is an ugly lurching grasp at a miracle he doesn't believe in
> by a monster that doesn't understand what he is, yet is worthy of redemption
> in spite of it all. He saved Buffy - and not just on the dance floor. Yet
> he thinks he failed. He's readying himself to sacrifice everything for his
> love, but thinks he's just proving a point. He doesn't have a clue what
> he's doing. It's a fucking miracle.
This is where I think he *does* believe in the miracle - only once
he's got it, he understands that there's a catch.
> Do you see what I mean? My take on this very much includes giving Buffy a
> lover with a soul. It might be some poncy twit dropping by for tea and a
> diddle, but he'll have a soul. Might even make Buffy happy, but there'll be
> something missing....
>
> We've both talked about Angel, but there's another model Spike has had to
> look at too. Riley. You remember how right Spike was about him - how Buffy
> needed a little monster in his man. Wouldn't Spike - the real character -
> have to imagine the soul taking the monster out of himself? Yeah, maybe
> there is a downside to that monster, but it stops him from being Riley.
> Stops him from being the poncy part of Angel that he so much holds in
> contempt.
Already answered this above, but I just want to point out that in S6
he's giving Buffy the monster he thinks she craves - and what do you
know, she breaks up with him! I think what he begins to understand is
that she needs some man in her monster. Also it's Buffy The Slayer he
falls for - the righteous hero. She's his new Cecily - effulgent.
> I have to laugh at Jane speaking of Spike looking into his soul - before he
> had one - and then deciding to get a soul. An accidental turn of phrase I
> expect, but maybe a touch of Freudian Slip too. It serves to remind what a
> delicate line we walk examining this - how close to the redemptionista
> argument we are. And I'm reminded how we also know that the writers
> themselves argued about how evil Spike really was. If you push too far with
> what Spike comprehends looking inside, any feelings of guilt he acquires,
> motive to be "good" beyond how it would please Buffy, and so on; then you're
> increasingly assigning a defacto soul to Spike. IMO that defeats the
> purpose of the soul quest far more than what you think my approach does. I
> think it's essential for Spike not to understand what he's doing, to include
> with it bad motives, the motives of that monster he still is.
I agree. I just think the bad motives you ascribe to him are the wrong
ones! *g*
Now Spike/Buffy in S6 is incredibly complex. The best dissection of
the relationship is this essay by the_royal_anna (
http://the-royal-anna.livejournal.com/31880.html ) which I will quote
a large chunk of since it beautifully explains the point I've been
trying to articulate:
*********
"Here's a question that matters, I think. Why does Spike fall for
Buffy in the first place? There are reasons a-plenty, of course, but I
think a crucial part of it is that he sees in her the potential for a
relationship with an equal. And all his life - and unlife - that's
something that's been forbidden fruit to him. The key relationships in
his life - his mother, Angel, Dru - have given him everything but
that, I think.
The relationship he shared with Dru is something that comes heavily
into play in Spike's relationship with Buffy. When I talk about it not
being an "equal" relationship I don't mean exactly that - there's no
doubt that it's a deeply loving relationship, that they understand
each other beautifully, and that they both get equally as much out of
that relationship. But I don't know that Spike ever really knows
what's going in Dru's head. And nor does he Buffy, exactly, but there
is a difference. Dru loved him as he was - was drawn to him even as
William. And unconditional love is hardly a bad thing, but I think
there's a sense that she loves him with disregard for what he can be,
for what's in his head, for what he's capable of achieving. It's all
those identity issues again - "Spike" is, at least initially, the
creation of Dru and Angel. As Spike says to Angel in 'Destiny',
"Drusilla sired me...but you...you made me a monster." Of course, at
the time he'd have seen them as freeing him from "William", who was
essentially the creation of his mother.
What Buffy gives him is a way out that looks different to what he's
known before. She won't love him unless he's better than he is, he
knows that, and that gives him a reason to become better. And I'm not
calling that healthy, but I think he sees in Buffy somebody who can
engage with - love, even - the person he knows he's capable of being.
But Spike's identity issues are so long held, and Buffy struggling so
much with her own identity crisis, that it takes a season or two
before that can be something that brings either of them much more than
doubt and pain.
Buffy and Spike are two people both engaged in a constant battle
against the darkness inside them. No wonder they're drawn to each
other, especially here when they're both more conscious of that
darkness inside than ever. But they both need someone to be their
constant, someone who can give them something to hold onto in this
fight. Buffy doesn't just go to Spike because she finds in him a place
to let out that darkness inside that sometimes threatens to overwhelm
her, but because she's seen in him someone who's managed to fight the
darkness inside himself. It's that old duality again - she wants him
for the man he can be, not just the monster. And she's long been his
inspiration, the role model who gives him something to work towards in
his own internal battle. Again, it's the dark side of the sunlight/
shade metaphor.
"You always end up in the dark with me," says Spike to Buffy in Dead
Things, and it's a hollow victory. Fighting to make her give in to the
darkness weighing on her was never what this was supposed to be about.
She was his inspiration to fight his own darkness, and if he knew how
to fight for her, to take on the darkness in her as well as in him, I
think he would."
**********
I think that's important - the fact that she makes him want to be
_better_, that she gives him something to strive towards. The point
where he breaks from his demon nature for good is as far back as FFL,
when instead of killing her sits down and offers comfort instead. And
he rails against it even then:
SPIKE: You think I like having you in here? Destroying everything that
was me, until all that's left is you, in a dead shell. (scoffs) You
say you hate it, but you won't leave.
'Crush'
And yet he keeps going, just like that - because 'Intervention' offers
him hope.
SPIKE: Just ... give me something ... a crumb ... a barest smidgen ...
tell me ... maybe, someday, there's a chance.
In 'Intervention' she gives him that crumb. He sees that there might
be a chance. He did something right, and she rewarded him. Gave him
hope that maybe someday she'd love him - because that's what he wants
- her love. (See the Spike/Riley conversation in ITW... and just like
Riley he ended up with just her body and not her soul). In S6 he gets
an actual chance with her - and in the end he only manages to prove to
himself (and her) without a shadow of a doubt that she will never,
ever love him. And what is Love's Bitch suppossed to do then? Well he
does the one thing he hopes will make him loveable.
So I don't think that the soul quest is 'noble' particularly - it is
(in part anyway - he's definitely a bundle of different emotions and
impulses) very selfishly motivated: He wants to earn Buffy's love.
To finish off, because I'm running out of steam (why does fandom not
pay?), another quote from the_royal_anna. Because Spike's soulquest
can never really be seen apart from Buffy and Angel:
*******
"Buffy talks a lot in Season 7 about the fact that Spike has a soul.
Of _course_ it matters to her. It is everything to her, because she
is the one who lost Angel his soul. That is who she is. That is what
she is worth. She is the destruction of what is good and the end of
hope, and she can save the world a thousand times but that will still
hang over her. Until now. Because suddenly this is how much she is
worth - she is worth a soul. She is worth a vampire going out and
getting a soul for her, all for her, and yes, it matters to her. She
is the Slayer and she can do anything and everything but she cannot
earn back that soul, that damn soul that was lost at her hands and
regained only for her to destroy it again, sending it to straight to
Hell. But this time, this vampire takes it out of her hands. _She_
cannot earn back that soul but he can. And what Buffy is only just
starting to understand is what he can do for her is as much hers as
what she can do for herself, that this gift of a soul is part of who
he is, and who she is, and who they are."
******
Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree? Oh and I've never come
across your interpretation before, so intrigues me. But I still think
it's wrong. *g*
Elisi
One Bit Shy
> OK, finally here. More or less. Life has been busy (Easter! Children!
> Writing!) so I'm going to try to just answer a few keypoints out of
> your very long and complex post. Sorry if it's kinda dis-jointed, but
> I've been working on it on and off... hope I've not mangled things too
> badly.
I can't believe you actually responded. I was so sure I had outlasted you
on this one. <g> I don't know if I'll respond further to this post or not.
Between some fairly hairy family stuff and the Firefly reviews it would be a
strain to give this proper attention. But I wanted to acknowledge your
post. I've only read the first couple of paragraphs so far - which I will
respond to. Looking forward to the rest...
> On Apr 3, 5:31 am, "One Bit Shy" < O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
>> > (I was probably too busy arguing
>> > with burt and BTR...) But seriously - I'd rather go with the misdirect
>> > that he wants the chip out - at least that way he has a single
>> > straight forward objective. Turning his motivation into this twisted,
>> > nasty thing, worthy of Angelus, is not just unpleasant, but utterly
>> > ruins his redemption arc.
>>
>> I don't think so. As you can probably gather, I'm not a Redemptionista.
>
> Hm - now in which sense do you use the word 'Redemptionista'? For me
> the word specifically refers to the part of fandom who wanted Spike to
> achieve 'soulless redemption' (whatever *that* is - please don't start
> thinking about it, it'll make your head hurt). They _hated_ the soul
> quest, since it 'ruined' their favourite story.
> I personally think the story of Spike's redemption is an excellent
> one, with the soul being a large and necessary step, but of course
> only working as well as it does because of the way it ties into
> everything before and after. It's all about the journey.
I mean broadly the notion of redemption without the soul quest. Whether
that implies an un-evil monster, or growing a soul from scratch, or any
other mechanism, I'll leave to those who liked the concept. The finer
points of what difference a soul makes is its own monstrous topic, but I
think the element I was most trying to emphasize was how the monster in
him - a great monster - remained unchecked by a soul and must express itself
until the very end. Its influence *can't* end in that bathroom. If it did,
that would negate the impact of the soul quest. I think it's important for
character continuity that in considerable part Spike have the wrong idea of
what getting a soul will mean to him. I think it's important to the
redemption arc that he doesn't actually want a soul, but goes on the quest
anyway.
OBS
Elisi
> "Elisi" <elis...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1176884069....@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> > OK, finally here. More or less. Life has been busy (Easter! Children!
> > Writing!) so I'm going to try to just answer a few keypoints out of
> > your very long and complex post. Sorry if it's kinda dis-jointed, but
> > I've been working on it on and off... hope I've not mangled things too
> > badly.
>
> I can't believe you actually responded. I was so sure I had outlasted you
> on this one. <g>
Heh. ;)
> I don't know if I'll respond further to this post or not.
> Between some fairly hairy family stuff and the Firefly reviews it would be a
> strain to give this proper attention.
Take as long as you like - I'll keep checking in now and again. :)
> But I wanted to acknowledge your
> post. I've only read the first couple of paragraphs so far - which I will
> respond to. Looking forward to the rest...
Thanks! :)
Oh in that we are definitely in agreement! Spike who chooses to get a
soul is the same Spike who got a robot Buffy made...
> I think it's important for
> character continuity that in considerable part Spike have the wrong idea of
> what getting a soul will mean to him. I think it's important to the
> redemption arc that he doesn't actually want a soul, but goes on the quest
> anyway.
*nods* Our disagreement is only about the 'why'! Looking forward to
hearing from you, whenever you find the time.
Elisi