AOQ Review 5-10: "Into The Woods"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Five, Episode 10: "Into The Woods"
(or "Seriously, goodbye, Iowa. Go away.")
Writer: Marti Noxon
Director: Marti Noxon
Directorial debut for Marti, I think, joining Joss, David, and Tim in
the hallowed halls of "Written And Directed By" credits.
The show plays with our minds a little to start, having the suspense
moment at the end of the teaser being Buffy waiting to hear the news
about Joyce. And after the long string of things going wrong, she
turns out to be apparently fine, and all is well for now. "I must be
getting better, cuz you're making fun of me." And with a discussion
about "Bible study" (the text is thin enough to switch places with
the subtext) of the kind that I can't imagine ever having with a
parent, ITW turns into a Buffy/Riley episode.
Standard practice is to have them engaging in copious amounts of sex
(as Dawn riffs on in the fun little companion scene at Xander's new
place), and in a little bit of sweeping romance dialogue to go with it.
And in case this scene was laying it on too thick for anyone, change
the mood a little by throwing in Marsters to do some glowering. I was
thinking about how Riley and some viewers have made an issue over the
fact that Buffy rarely, if ever, says that she loves him. Is that
particular three-word phrase supposed to make all the difference? I
feel like stuff like "[tonight]'s more than special. It's perfect...
I'm here with you. That's all that matters," suggests that she
might have some kind of feelings for him. Of course, for the purposes
of this episode, Riley's perception is more important than the
reality. So although I guess we can rekindle the discussions from the
"The Replacement" thread about what love is, the actual issue is
the mismatched expectations.
This time, and I just now noticed the echo of the season premiere,
it's Soldier-boy who isn't satisfied by the usual nocturnal
activities, and we finally get an explanation of why he's been
letting vampires suck him off, so to speak. The idea of vampires and
adrenaline junkies working out such a deal appeals to me, and the
episode manages a few lines here and there to explain the logistics.
Buffy is displeased, and Gellar again proves that she can sell pain
spiked with violent tendencies like almost no one else.
This paves the way for the two big centerpiece exchanges of the week.
I think both of them work well for the most part. The Buffy/Riley one
does suffer a little bit from the tendency I sometimes complain about
to seem more like monologues than conversations, but nowhere near the
caliber of "Doomed" or OOMM in that regard, and there're enough
interesting things being said that it's only a quibble. A lot of the
breakup conversation is about Riley feeling like his needs aren't
being met, that Buffy isn't letting him in. Understandable, but my
inclination is to blame him for letting this fester and then dumping it
on her with the stupid ultimatum. On the other hand, he has a certain
level of maturity and insight about his mistakes that go a long way
towards making him both more sympathetic and more worth listening to.
For example:
RILEY: I wanted to get it, Buffy. I wanted to get you.
BUFFY: So this is my fault? Hey, gee, Buffy's so mysterious, I think
I'll go out and almost die. I think I'll go and let some other wh-
RILEY: This isn't your fault. It's mine.
Or:
RILEY: It wasn't real. I know, it was just physical. But the fact
that I craved it...
I think that it's also important to make explicit where Riley's
making things harder for everyone, because without lines like that, ITW
would seem too much like it was making the breakup out to be all
Buffy's fault, when the truth is more complicated. I feel like her
(futile) decision at the end isn't just seeing her own errors and
such, but also deciding that she loves him enough to work through this,
accept him in spite of everything wrong and unwise he's done.
The idea that Buffy wasn't emotionally open before this moment is, of
course, also a big factor in what goes down here; I'm not dismissing
it, just trying not to overstate that case. This theme comes up a lot
in the second big two-character scene, in which Xander confronts his
role model. Ah yes, Xander as Buffy's occasional spiritual/emotional
guide; good to see that again, after over a year of the show having
forgotten about it. Again, not nuts about the excess blame-Buffy
stuff, but like how it comes off as a moment among friends who're
riled up enough to hit each other with the blunt words. Love the way
Xander defies the TV convention of allowing melodramatically stalking
away to automatically end a conversation. Not today.
In turn, that exchange is the lead-in to the big chase scene at the
end. (Doesn't Riley carry a cell-phone?) ITW goes for all-out
unapologetic melodrama here, with the music and panoramic shots to go
with the frantic sprint. Obviously she'll either make it just in
time or be just barely too late, but since I could imagine it going
either way, it was pretty okay suspense-wise.
On a lighter note, there's a nice little Xander/Anya story running
through the show too. There's not even enough of it to call a
"B-story" rather than "a few scenes," but they couldn't exist
in their current form without the episode's A-story to frame them, so
it's a well constructed episode tin that regard. Xander really does
speak ze language of love. Sometimes, anyway.
And since I mentioned Anya, Caulfield gets yet another opportunity to
shine from the background. I can see why people are so nuts about her
comedic timing, and her character's range is getting to expand as she
starts to pick up a few of the nuances of Sunnydale conversation
combined with finding a new way to channel her attitude. Line of the
episode: "That's so very humorous. Make fun of the ex-demon! I can
just hear you in private. 'I dislike that Anya. She's newly human and
strangely literal.'"
Spike's reaction shots during his part in all this are pretty good.
Without many words, he manages to suggest that he can't quite fathom
that, despite his help in triggering things, this story isn't about
him. And he gets to have his face half-shadowed a few times, like his
grand-sire. I liked Riley staking Spike with the plastic thing - the
two of them have had some good simmering-rage scenes this year - but
I rolled my eyes at them sitting down with a drink afterwards as
male-bonding comrades in love. Bleah. Stock scene, and one that I
don't buy from these two.
Seems like it's been awhile since we've had one of those sequences
with Buffy stabbing everything and everyone in sight. Lots of good
killin' visuals, especially the one she takes out while it's in
midair. When will the undead learn that she's not the right Slayer
to get angry? Pretending to give the suck-whore a chance to escape is
pretty mean.
This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
- Giles, purveyor of crass holiday commercialism, and his banner in
which both Winter Solstice and Chanukah get billed ahead of Christmas
- "She bathes you?" "Only in an erotic, Penthouse-y way, not in
a sponge-bath-y geriatric sort of..."
- "Maybe I didn't almost kill you enough"
- "If you don't wanna hear what I have to say, I'll shut up right
now." "Good, 'cause I don't." "I lied"
And that brings us to Winter Break. Although timing in the season
doesn't necessarily mean anything, I'd assume that this is the end
of the Year Of _Life Of Riley_. I don't think I'll miss him much.
Chimpanzees aren't monkeys.
So...
One-sentence summary: A few over-the-top speeches mar an otherwise
strong effort.
AOQ rating: Good
[Season Five so far:
1) "Buffy Vs. Dracula" - Good
2) "Real Me" - Decent
3) "The Replacement" - Good
4) "Out Of My Mind" - Weak
5) "No Place Like Home" - Decent
6) "Family" - Excellent
7) "Fool For Love" - Excellent
8) "Shadow" - Good
9) "Listening To Fear" - Decent
10) "Into The Woods" - Good]
kenm47
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Five, Episode 10: "Into The Woods"
> (or "Seriously, goodbye, Iowa. Go away.")
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: Marti Noxon
>
> Directorial debut for Marti, I think, joining Joss, David, and Tim in
> the hallowed halls of "Written And Directed By" credits.
>
<SNIP>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: A few over-the-top speeches mar an otherwise
> strong effort.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
>
> [Season Five so far:
> 1) "Buffy Vs. Dracula" - Good
> 2) "Real Me" - Decent
> 3) "The Replacement" - Good
> 4) "Out Of My Mind" - Weak
> 5) "No Place Like Home" - Decent
> 6) "Family" - Excellent
> 7) "Fool For Love" - Excellent
> 8) "Shadow" - Good
> 9) "Listening To Fear" - Decent
> 10) "Into The Woods" - Good]
Feh.
Much of the season to now has been this contorted effort to dump Riley
from the cast list for who knows why? Maybe no Q factor with the
fanbase?
Whatever. Neither Riley nor Buffy sold this to me throughout the
season. The inability to talk to each other was daytime soap opera at
its worst.
Nothing organic here. All forced. Did not work for me. Another reason
the show was losing its charm for me, seemed to be going nowhere but
downhill to a then (IIRC) seeming really possible end of Season 5 being
THE END. (Nygubhtu gur arkg pbzrql rcvfbqr - juvpu jvyy cebonoyl trg
cnaarq ol bhe erivrjre - jnf VZB irel shaal naq va znal jnlf frrzrq gb
or onpx ba Ohssl genpx)
The Xander pep talk seemed wrong. The Buffy run seemed ridiculous, a
poor echo of her inability to get to Kendra in time.
And Xander's moment of realization as to Anya? (jryy, gurl fperj gung
hc erny tbbq va gur arkg frnfba) . Again forced, and not natural. The
seams were showing like never before, IMO. Just off.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Elisi
> (or "Seriously, goodbye, Iowa. Go away.")
I've been thinking about Buffy/Riley, knowing that this episode was
coming up. I don't hate it, but I don't particularly like it either.
It's good getting everything out in the open, even if it just shows how
completely they are talking past each other. To look at Buffy first, I
think this sentence is especially important:
BUFFY: Can we put the whole night on repeat?
That right there is what she wants from Riley. Comfort. Let's also look
back to the beginning. From 'Something Blue':
Willow: And there's sparkage?
Buffy: Yeah. He's... have you seen his arms? Those are good arms to
have. I really like him. I do.
Willow: But..?
Buffy: I don't know. I really like being around him, you know? And I
think he cares about me.. but.. I just.. feel like something's missing.
Willow: He's not making you miserable?
Buffy: Exactly. Riley seems so solid. Like he wouldn't cause me
heartache.
Willow: (Fake worry) Get out. Get out while there's still time.
Buffy: I know.. I have to get away from that bad boy thing. There's no
good there. Seeing Angel in LA.. even for five minutes.. hello to the
pain.
Willow: The pain is not a friend.
Buffy: But I can't help thinking... isn't that where the fire comes
from? Can a nice, safe relationship be that intense? I know it's nuts,
but.. part of me believes that real love and passion have to go hand in
hand with pain and fighting.
(Suddenly a vampire jumps out from behind a bush. Buffy stakes him
without so much as looking the other way. He crumbles to dust and she
and Willow continue on their way)
Buffy: I wonder where I get that from.
And at the end of the episode:
Buffy: I mean, I wasn't even nice. And the bad-boy thing ? over it.
Okay, I totally get it. I'd be really happy to be in a nice
relationship with a decent, reliable.. Oh my God! Riley thinks I'm
engaged.
Buffy wanted something safe and nice. A nice, reliable boyfriend.
Something other than the world-ending pain and passion she had with
Angel.
But Riley... Riley wants that passion. And also I think Riley is
looking for something permanent - he's probably a few years older than
Buffy (mid-twenties I'd say) and ready for commitment. Buffy... not so
much. She even told him as much in 'Doomed':
Riley: ...I mean, you're a (sees some people walking by) fry cook, and
so am I!
Buffy: Yeah, but you're an amateur fry cook and I come form a long line
of fry cooks that don't live past 25.
Riley: Which is exactly the attitude I'm talking about. Look, I know
the risks of what we do. I also know it's more rewarding than any other
job on the planet - and fun.
(Actually go back and look at their scenes together in 'Doomed' - you
can see them talking past each other _so_ badly) Bottom line - Buffy is
the Slayer. White wedding, nice house and 2.4 children are pretty much
off the menu. I think she'd like it, don't get me wrong, but it's a
distant dream and has no real impact on her day-to-day life. Another
part of the Slayer gig is her incredible self-reliance. Riley takes
this as a slight, and to some extent it is, but it is how she copes.
Remember that she had to go off to fight Angelus all on her own - she
can't allow herself to rely on people because in the end there's only
her. F.ex. imagine that one of the vamp-ho's hadn't played by the
house-rules and instead had turned him. And it would have been Buffy's
job to kill him. This is only a distant possibility, but that's why
she's closed off.
Huh, look at me talking. Anyway, I don't think she runs after that
helicopter because she realises that Riley is the 'once in a life-time
guy', but more because if she can't make it work with _him_ what chance
does she have? Also Xander is projecting something fierce - of course
he wants her to go for Mr. Reliable.
About Spike, then I love him through out - especially in his scene with
Riley - and the look on his face when he realises that Buffy is upset
is very good. I don't think he wanted to hurt her - maybe he thought
she'd be angry and not sad. Silly vampire.
alphakitten
Why ask why? Just be grateful.
>
> Whatever. Neither Riley nor Buffy sold this to me throughout the
> season. The inability to talk to each other was daytime soap opera at
> its worst.
>
Riley finally realized she wasn't in love with him, and Buffy was so
desperate for the normal relationship with the normal boy, that she was
in denial about the fact that she wasn't in love with him. That's the
way I saw it, and it played fine for me.
I have no trouble understanding why Riley didn't try and talk through
his fears with her. He assumed she'd confirm them and that would have
been the only thing worse than what he was going through.
As for Buffy, she wasn't unable to talk to him, she simply wasn't
compelled too. She didn't need him.
> Nothing organic here. All forced. Did not work for me. Another reason
> the show was losing its charm for me, seemed to be going nowhere but
> downhill to a then (IIRC) seeming really possible end of Season 5 being
> THE END.
>
> The Xander pep talk seemed wrong. The Buffy run seemed ridiculous, a
> poor echo of her inability to get to Kendra in time.
I agree about Xander and The Run, (although I don't see an echo of the
Becoming run).
>
> And Xander's moment of realization as to Anya? (jryy, gurl fperj gung
> hc erny tbbq va gur arkg frnfba) . Again forced, and not natural.
V nterr gung gur zbzrag vf sbeprq naq haangheny, ohg gung'f *rknpgyl*
jul V unir ab ceboyrz jvgu jung unccraf gb gurz va F6. Gur jevgvat jnf
ba gur jnyy.
~Angel
jil...@hotmail.com
Elisi wrote:
> About Spike, then I love him through out - especially in his scene with
> Riley - and the look on his face when he realises that Buffy is upset
> is very good. I don't think he wanted to hurt her - maybe he thought
> she'd be angry and not sad. Silly vampire.
Well, I think Spike had convinced himself that Buffy wasn't actually
emotionally involved with Riley. Sadly, Riley convinced himself of the
same thing. The only person who knew the truth was Buffy. Well, and
Xander.
kenm47
alphakitten wrote:
<SNIP>
>
> >
> > And Xander's moment of realization as to Anya? (jryy, gurl fperj gung
> > hc erny tbbq va gur arkg frnfba) . Again forced, and not natural.
>
>
>
> V nterr gung gur zbzrag vf sbeprq naq haangheny, ohg gung'f *rknpgyl*
> jul V unir ab ceboyrz jvgu jung unccraf gb gurz va F6. Gur jevgvat jnf
> ba gur jnyy.
>
>
>
> ~Angel
There I'll give you a maybe, even though I don't think they were
thinking like that then. IMO, of course.
Gurer'f n yngre rcvfbqr, V guvax vg'f gur Qnja Unyybjrra rcvfbqr, jurer
Knaqre naq Naln unir jung frrzf gb or n aba-sbeprq gehyl pbaarpgvat
zbzrag gung ohvyqf ba guvf bar. Bayl rirelguvat erirefrf, va jbefr
sbeprq snfuvba VZB, va gur aba-jrqqvat.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Elisi
That's a very good point.There was never the BIG feelings she had for
Angel, but that doesn't mean that she wasn't emotionally involved. She
had a much more real everyday relationship with Riley than she ever did
with Angel. But Spike - as we saw in Lover's Walk particularly - is
very much an all or nothing sort of guy.
Bill Reid
Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1150978063.4...@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Five, Episode 10: "Into The Woods"
> (or "Seriously, goodbye, Iowa. Go away.")
Heh.
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: Marti Noxon
>
> Directorial debut for Marti, I think, joining Joss, David, and Tim in
> the hallowed halls of "Written And Directed By" credits.
>
Really? I don't think I ever noticed this before. Explains a lot
about this episode, which so happens is one of my favorite bad
episodes of "Buffy", really of any TV show in history, primarily
because of:
>
> In turn, that exchange is the lead-in to the big chase scene at the
> end. (Doesn't Riley carry a cell-phone?) ITW goes for all-out
> unapologetic melodrama here, with the music and panoramic shots to go
> with the frantic sprint. Obviously she'll either make it just in
> time or be just barely too late, but since I could imagine it going
> either way, it was pretty okay suspense-wise.
>
Ah yes, the "Run Buffy Run" scene, makes me howl every time
I watch it. The music, the cuts back and forth between Buffy
running and Riley looking at his watch, the whole over-wrought
melodrama of the thing, perfect...perfectly stupid. Perfectly,
hilariously, stupid.
But there's some other ridiculously bad stuff in the episode too,
like:
> I liked Riley staking Spike with the plastic thing -
I liked it too, because it was the most ridiculously contrived
commercial break cliff-hanger ever, thus imbuing it with tons
of meta-humor. My first question is always: where the hell
do you get a "plastic wood-grain stake"? The answer is: only
in Hollywood in a stupid show about vampires with a vampire
that even if vampires actually existed would have been really
staked years ago but because he's a very special typically
shirtless and quite often pantsless vampire who appeals to
the horny lonely female demographic of the audience he gets
to improbably live to be shirtless and pantsless for many
episodes to come so because the producers even got tired
of almost killing Buffy as a commercial break cliff-hanger they
decided to mix it up by almost killing the shirtless and sometimes
pantsless bad boy animalistic vampire character that the
horny lonely female demographic dreams they can "tame"
because the last shirtless bad boy vampire character got
his own show.
> two of them have had some good simmering-rage scenes this year - but
> I rolled my eyes at them sitting down with a drink afterwards as
> male-bonding comrades in love. Bleah. Stock scene, and one that I
> don't buy from these two.
>
Hey, I bought it totally, it's a guy thing, you wouldn't get it...
> Seems like it's been awhile since we've had one of those sequences
> with Buffy stabbing everything and everyone in sight. Lots of good
> killin' visuals, especially the one she takes out while it's in
> midair.
OK, this was actually good, it's actually good to have some actual
goodness mixed in with the stuff that's only good because it's so bad...
> Pretending to give the suck-whore a chance to escape is
> pretty mean.
>
I saw it as a sporting opportunity at a head start...
>
> Chimpanzees aren't monkeys.
>
And dolphins aren't fish Mr. Techni-anal...I hope stuff like this doesn't
"ruin" a perfectly good bad episode for you...
>
> AOQ rating: Good
>
AROSTV (Arbitrary Rater Of Stupid TV) rating: So bad it's Phunny
> 7) "Fool For Love" - Excellent
OK...
> 8) "Shadow" - Good
Kind of wears out the grand tradition of Buffy battling penis
metaphors, because not only is this one misplaced metaphorically
it appears quite rubbery and non-turgid in the last ridiculously
phony shot of it...
> 9) "Listening To Fear" - Decent
The "Dawn Stop Shrieking And Get Me A Giant Can Of Raid"
episode...it's almost as if they were TRYING to make a classic
"so bad it's good" episode, and this was a practice run...
> 10) "Into The Woods" - Good]
>
One of the Komedy Grates...
---
William Ernest Reid
lili...@gmail.com
I have to say that Riley's attempts at becoming darker were the first
time I was actually interested in his char, though I hated him for
laying that ultimatum on Buffy. Not a fave ep, but it does have two
great scenes, the Spike-Riley convo, where MB probably gets his best
acting done in the entire show. (One of the great things about JM, no
matter what actor you place in front of them, they get better when
playing a scene with him. He tends to bring out the best in other
actors.) And of course that scene between Xander and Anya that really
made me root for them as a couple.
The rest of the ep is basically forgettable.
Lore
lili...@gmail.com
The problem is that Buffy saw Riley as the nice normal guy who could
fulfill her fantasy for a normal life. She tried to love him, she
probably believed she did. But she just couldn't bring up any real
level of passion for Riley. Because it just wasn't there.
Riley was everything that her friends wanted for her, everything that
her mom would probably want and everything that Angel told her she
should have.
She was basically trying to please everyone and Riley essentially
wasn't a bad guy. He just wasn't the right guy for Buffy.
Lore
Shloonktapooxis
> The problem is that Buffy saw Riley as the nice normal guy who could
> fulfill her fantasy for a normal life. She tried to love him, she
> probably believed she did. But she just couldn't bring up any real
> level of passion for Riley. Because it just wasn't there.
> Riley was everything that her friends wanted for her, everything that
> her mom would probably want and everything that Angel told her she
> should have.
>
> She was basically trying to please everyone and Riley essentially
> wasn't a bad guy. He just wasn't the right guy for Buffy.
>
>
>
> Lore
Real love doesn't have to be intensely passionate. Then again tv shows
is not a place anyone should ever look to for lessons in love.
alphakitten
> alphakitten wrote:
>
> <SNIP>
>
>
>>>And Xander's moment of realization as to Anya? (jryy, gurl fperj gung
>>>hc erny tbbq va gur arkg frnfba) . Again forced, and not natural.
>>
>>
>>
>>V nterr gung gur zbzrag vf sbeprq naq haangheny, ohg gung'f *rknpgyl*
>>jul V unir ab ceboyrz jvgu jung unccraf gb gurz va F6. Gur jevgvat jnf
>>ba gur jnyy.
>>
>>
>>
>> ~Angel
>
>
> There I'll give you a maybe, even though I don't think they were
> thinking like that then. IMO, of course.
V qba'g guvax gurl xarj rknpgyl jurer gurl jrer tbvat, ohg gur jnl
eryngvbafuvcf graqrq gb tb ba gur fubj, V guvax gurl jrer nyjnlf njner
gung vg jbhyqa'g or Knaln 4 Rin!
>
> Gurer'f n yngre rcvfbqr, V guvax vg'f gur Qnja Unyybjrra rcvfbqr, jurer
> Knaqre naq Naln unir jung frrzf gb or n aba-sbeprq gehyl pbaarpgvat
> zbzrag gung ohvyqf ba guvf bar. Bayl rirelguvat erirefrf, va jbefr
> sbeprq snfuvba VZB, va gur aba-jrqqvat.
>
> Ken (Brooklyn)
>
V qba'g frr gur erirefr nf sbeprq ng nyy. Naq V guvax tvivat gurz gurve
hasbeprq pbaarpgvat zbzrag va gur fnzr rc jurer jr yngre frr ubj gehyl
hafher naq greevsvrq Knaqre vf (uvf ernpgvbaf jura crbcyr fgneg gnyxvat
nobhg gurve shgher), bayl znxrf vg zber cbvatanag. Gurl unq n ybg bs
tbbq cbvagf nf n pbhcyr, gurl whfg qvqa'g dhvgr nqq hc, nf vg jrer. Ohg
vg'f gur pbzovangvba gung znxrf vg qenzngvp. Vs gurer unq orra abguvat
gurer gb znxr hf jnag gurz gbtrgure, cnegvat gurz jbhyq unir orra ab ovt
qrny.
~Angel
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> Buffy's fault, when the truth is more complicated. I feel like her
> (futile) decision at the end isn't just seeing her own errors and
> such, but also deciding that she loves him enough to work through this,
perhaps you shouldnt think about whose fault it is
buffy has her faults besides the bad ice skating movie obsession
riley has his faults
xander has his faults
anya hers
riley been running through the woods trying to reach buffy in times
quite a few times this year
and being just as successful as buffy was
it was xander who got it right
hes not blind or oblivious to anyas fault
shes not easy to be with and he knows it
he needs her and hes willing to risk it all
to let her know that
and give anya power over him
buffy wasnt willing to be vunerable
and now she doesnt have that opportunity
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
Elisi
> I liked it too, because it was the most ridiculously contrived
> commercial break cliff-hanger ever, thus imbuing it with tons
> of meta-humor. My first question is always: where the hell
> do you get a "plastic wood-grain stake"? The answer is: only
> in Hollywood in a stupid show about vampires with a vampire
> that even if vampires actually existed would have been really
> staked years ago but because he's a very special typically
> shirtless and quite often pantsless vampire who appeals to
> the horny lonely female demographic of the audience he gets
> to improbably live to be shirtless and pantsless for many
> episodes to come so because the producers even got tired
> of almost killing Buffy as a commercial break cliff-hanger they
> decided to mix it up by almost killing the shirtless and sometimes
> pantsless bad boy animalistic vampire character that the
> horny lonely female demographic dreams they can "tame"
> because the last shirtless bad boy vampire character got
> his own show.
Well we all know that the stupid show went downhill in the later
seasons because Buffy lost a lot of weight and stopped wearing ultra
short mini skirts!
One Bit Shy
news:1150978063.4...@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Five, Episode 10: "Into The Woods"
> (or "Seriously, goodbye, Iowa. Go away.")
I never minded Riley all that much, but it's still a relief seeing him
leave - just to finally bring a close to all the I hate Riley conversations.
(Not just from you.)
> The show plays with our minds a little to start, having the suspense
> moment at the end of the teaser being Buffy waiting to hear the news
> about Joyce.
I thought the short waiting scene was nicely done. There's nothing quite
like hours sitting in a hospital lounge. Does Willow's irritating moment
with Xander's watch and the clock on the wall feed at all into the Xander B
story you mention?
> Standard practice is to have them engaging in copious amounts of sex
> (as Dawn riffs on in the fun little companion scene at Xander's new
> place),
I really like that scene. It's easy to imagine a younger Dawn runnning
squealing through the house with the chopsticks in her mouth and Buffy
stalking her saying, "I'm going to get you, you evil vampire you." It
really emphasizes the family sense that they would make a sister game of
vampire slaying.
And everything Anya does in the scene is wonderful. (Go monkey!)
> and in a little bit of sweeping romance dialogue to go with it.
> And in case this scene was laying it on too thick for anyone,
This is where I revert to my own childhood and go, yuck, it's the kissing
scene. I cannot adequately express how boring I found this. How lacking in
feeling. I suppose part of the point of it is to *not* be convincing. But
I still had to watch it, and very much felt like throwing popcorn at the
screen. I cannot think of any other romance/sex scene in BtVS that has left
me so disinterested.
So, from my point of view, the show starts very deep in a hole. Fortunately
the episode works hard to pull me out of it.
> This time, and I just now noticed the echo of the season premiere,
> it's Soldier-boy who isn't satisfied by the usual nocturnal
> activities, and we finally get an explanation of why he's been
> letting vampires suck him off, so to speak. The idea of vampires and
> adrenaline junkies working out such a deal appeals to me, and the
> episode manages a few lines here and there to explain the logistics.
> Buffy is displeased, and Gellar again proves that she can sell pain
> spiked with violent tendencies like almost no one else.
I liked how utterly scuzzy they made the den. The kind of place where you
don't want to touch anything for fear of what will get on you.
It's a genuine moment of horror for Buffy to see Riley like that. I imagine
that's a humiliation for him that's going to stay burned in his mind for the
rest of his life. Add Buffy's natural impulse to kill demons as the outlet
for her emotions to what what she feels here and you have all you need to
know about her obsession with these vampires, and the torching of their den,
and the awful expressions she wore on her return to the site.
And in the slayfest near the end she offed seven vampires in short order.
Some of the slickest slaying she's ever done. I guess evidencing the
effects of a kind of focus. There's a little controversy in that scene over
Buffy letting the one vamp go and then killing her with the javelin throw.
Was that a moral action? It goes to the question of what her standards are
for letting any vampire live - such as Spike.
> This paves the way for the two big centerpiece exchanges of the week.
I don't care to relive the conversation. I think it speaks for iteself
pretty well. This and the Xander conversation I think cover most of the
factors at work. I believe the writers were working hard to spell it out.
Maybe they'd seen themselves the fan conversations complaining they didn't
understand. I will say, though, that neither Buffy nor Riley ever really
understand where the other is coming from, or usefully adapt to each other.
> I think that it's also important to make explicit where Riley's
> making things harder for everyone, because without lines like that, ITW
> would seem too much like it was making the breakup out to be all
> Buffy's fault, when the truth is more complicated. I feel like her
> (futile) decision at the end isn't just seeing her own errors and
> such, but also deciding that she loves him enough to work through this,
> accept him in spite of everything wrong and unwise he's done.
I fully accept that, in the end, Buffy loved Riley - even without the three
words. It's one of those instances where I think you should really believe
what the show is directly telling you. I don't believe that opinion is
universally held though.
> The idea that Buffy wasn't emotionally open before this moment is, of
> course, also a big factor in what goes down here; I'm not dismissing
> it, just trying not to overstate that case.
I don't fault Buffy for not opening up the way Riley seems to want and need.
There are many reasons why that is likely nigh on impossible for her. But
her failing is her persistent denial of it. She can't and won't see it.
IMO, that is the single biggest thing that has blocked them from
understanding each other and working it out.
> This theme comes up a lot
> in the second big two-character scene, in which Xander confronts his
> role model. Ah yes, Xander as Buffy's occasional spiritual/emotional
> guide; good to see that again, after over a year of the show having
> forgotten about it.
It is good, isn't it? It's also a nice display of his growing maturity.
See how he refuses to internalize it and won't get mad. See how Buffy slips
into her old role of baiting Xander back, but this time Xander refuses the
bait.
> Again, not nuts about the excess blame-Buffy
> stuff, but like how it comes off as a moment among friends who're
> riled up enough to hit each other with the blunt words. Love the way
> Xander defies the TV convention of allowing melodramatically stalking
> away to automatically end a conversation. Not today.
I don't think there's excess blame-Buffy. He does wake her up with some
observations she probably needs to hear, but he doesn't dispute her counter
claims. Instead he focuses her on the consequences of her choices. That's
the point. Not sympathy. Listing Riley's faults isn't going to help.
Besides, he's talking to Buffy - not Riley. A Riley conversation would
surely go very differently. Remember the couple of moments in recent
episodes where Xander speaks very pointedly to Riley. Riley probably could
have used a conversation like this with Xander himself. Maybe that would
have happened if events hadn't come on in such a rush.
I think this is just about the best, most dead on lecture Xander has ever
given.
In the end I think Riley and Buffy share responsibility for what happened -
and, yes, I studiously avoided the word blame. They are each in their own
way trapped by their natures, their misperceptions, and a very heavy dose of
circumstance preventing them from staying together. Proverbial ships
passing on a foggy night. So close, that just the slightest look to the
side could have changed everything. But it didn't happen.
> In turn, that exchange is the lead-in to the big chase scene at the
> end. (Doesn't Riley carry a cell-phone?) ITW goes for all-out
> unapologetic melodrama here, with the music and panoramic shots to go
> with the frantic sprint. Obviously she'll either make it just in
> time or be just barely too late, but since I could imagine it going
> either way, it was pretty okay suspense-wise.
The shot in the helicopter of the stone faced Riley with Buffy on the ground
in the background jerked a couple tears from me.
There's a kind of standard sappy quality to what was done with this scene,
but I like it for it being representative of how close they got to each
other. And how absolute the break is.
> On a lighter note, there's a nice little Xander/Anya story running
> through the show too. There's not even enough of it to call a
> "B-story" rather than "a few scenes," but they couldn't exist
> in their current form without the episode's A-story to frame them, so
> it's a well constructed episode tin that regard. Xander really does
> speak ze language of love. Sometimes, anyway.
More of his maturity. I'm really impressed that he would take the lesson he
saw with Buffy/Riley and apply it to himself and Anya. He may also remember
Riley's envy of their relationship a few episodes back, and now really
appreciates the truth of it.
> And since I mentioned Anya, Caulfield gets yet another opportunity to
> shine from the background. I can see why people are so nuts about her
> comedic timing, and her character's range is getting to expand as she
> starts to pick up a few of the nuances of Sunnydale conversation
> combined with finding a new way to channel her attitude. Line of the
> episode: "That's so very humorous. Make fun of the ex-demon! I can
> just hear you in private. 'I dislike that Anya. She's newly human and
> strangely literal.'"
I agree that it's the best line. And Willow does bait her and doesn't much
like her. I confess I enjoy the catfight qualities of that scene too.
> Spike's reaction shots during his part in all this are pretty good.
> Without many words, he manages to suggest that he can't quite fathom
> that, despite his help in triggering things, this story isn't about
> him.
The look he gets from Buffy after they leave the vampire nest truly stuns
him. I think this goes to what I see as Spike's lack of true empathy. It's
not just that it's not about himself, he doesn't grasp how his part wouldn't
be seen as much of a favor to Buffy. To think it would diminishes him in
Buffy's eyes. Spike sees that happen, but doesn't understand it.
> And he gets to have his face half-shadowed a few times, like his
> grand-sire. I liked Riley staking Spike with the plastic thing - the
> two of them have had some good simmering-rage scenes this year - but
> I rolled my eyes at them sitting down with a drink afterwards as
> male-bonding comrades in love. Bleah. Stock scene, and one that I
> don't buy from these two.
I actually do. It says a lot about Riley's state of mind. He still cares
enough to let his anger carry him to the fake staking, but deeper inside
he's flat out giving up. Beating on Spike did him no good emotionally at
all. And he just wilts in front of us. Spike's got nothing to do with it.
But at least he's got a bottle of wine. I like this scene a lot.
> Chimpanzees aren't monkeys.
But the ice is just as slippery for them. Go monkey!
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: A few over-the-top speeches mar an otherwise
> strong effort.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
It's Good for me too. Fairly solidly. Yet there's a touch of
disappointment in it for me too. It felt like it should have been even
better. And there sure was a lot of talking in it - and that awful horrible
early romance scene. Still, I can't deny the power of Xander's lecture and
the sadness of Buffy's long run.
OBS
cry...@panix.com
> kenm47 wrote:
>> alphakitten wrote:
>>>
>>> V nterr gung gur zbzrag vf sbeprq naq haangheny, ohg gung'f
>>> *rknpgyl* jul V unir ab ceboyrz jvgu jung unccraf gb gurz va
>>> F6. Gur jevgvat jnf ba gur jnyy.
>>
>> jrer guvaxvat yvxr gung gura. VZB, bs pbhefr.
>
> V qba'g guvax gurl xarj rknpgyl jurer gurl jrer tbvat, ohg gur
> jnl eryngvbafuvcf graqrq gb tb ba gur fubj, V guvax gurl jrer
> nyjnlf njner gung vg jbhyqa'g or Knaln 4 Rin!
Fvapr gurer'f cerggl pyrne sberfunqbjvat va F4 (Erfgyrff, "Gung'f
abg gur jnl bhg"), F5, naq ernyyl oyngnag sberfunqbjvat guebhtubhg
F6, V guvax gurl unq cynaarq vg bhg dhvgr n ybat gvzr va nqinapr.
--
-Crystal
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> effects of a kind of focus. There's a little controversy in that scene over
> Buffy letting the one vamp go and then killing her with the javelin throw.
> Was that a moral action? It goes to the question of what her standards are
> for letting any vampire live - such as Spike.
i didnt see that buffy was playing with the vampire
but rather seeing her again put buffy back in that moment
and she busy processing her memories
so the vampire took the opportunity to run
when buffy returned to the present she did her job
One Bit Shy
news:qyxmg.49940$mF2....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> My first question is always: where the hell
> do you get a "plastic wood-grain stake"?
How about a lawn and garden store?
Paul Hyett
:
>
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Five, Episode 10: "Into The Woods"
>(or "Seriously, goodbye, Iowa. Go away.")
>Writer: Marti Noxon
>Director: Marti Noxon
>
>with Buffy stabbing everything and everyone in sight. Lots of good
>killin' visuals, especially the one she takes out while it's in
>midair. When will the undead learn that she's not the right Slayer
>to get angry? Pretending to give the suck-whore a chance to escape is
>pretty mean.
That scene was spectacular, and IMO almost the only redeeming part in an
otherwise tedious character-driven episode.
--
Paul 'Charts Fan' Hyett
One Bit Shy
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mair_fheal-07059...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
>> Some of the slickest slaying she's ever done. I guess evidencing the
>> effects of a kind of focus. There's a little controversy in that scene
>> over
>> Buffy letting the one vamp go and then killing her with the javelin
>> throw.
>> Was that a moral action? It goes to the question of what her standards
>> are
>> for letting any vampire live - such as Spike.
>
> i didnt see that buffy was playing with the vampire
> but rather seeing her again put buffy back in that moment
> and she busy processing her memories
> so the vampire took the opportunity to run
>
> when buffy returned to the present she did her job
I don't think that's necessarily clear. But it's one possibility.
I don't have a problem with the staking myself. She was momentarily brought
up short by her appearance. Then recovered and proceeded with what she does
every day. I don't know if your reason is the one, but the effect is the
same.
OBS
vague disclaimer
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> . Again, not nuts about the excess blame-Buffy
> stuff
"Refusing to demonise Riley" is not equal to "blame Buffy".
One of the strengths of the show it that it is sparing with the
unthinking finger pointing. A life lesson there perhaps.
--
Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
in vamp chris makepeace stabs his turned friend through the heart
with a piece from a broken table
later the friend shows up again
and reveals the wooden table was not wooden
- melmac go figure
drifter
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Five, Episode 10: "Into The Woods"
> (or "Seriously, goodbye, Iowa. Go away.")
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: Marti Noxon
> Seems like it's been awhile since we've had one of those sequences
> with Buffy stabbing everything and everyone in sight. Lots of good
> killin' visuals, especially the one she takes out while it's in
> midair. When will the undead learn that she's not the right Slayer
> to get angry? Pretending to give the suck-whore a chance to escape is
> pretty mean.
What I saw was:
This is the one HE was with! Should I just let her go?
<beat>
Ah, screw it! <dustage>
--
Kel
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own."
Michael Ikeda
news:1150978063.4...@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
> review threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Five, Episode 10: "Into The Woods"
> (or "Seriously, goodbye, Iowa. Go away.")
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: Marti Noxon
>
> Directorial debut for Marti, I think, joining Joss, David, and
> Tim in the hallowed halls of "Written And Directed By" credits.
>
> The show plays with our minds a little to start, having the
> suspense moment at the end of the teaser being Buffy waiting to
> hear the news about Joyce. And after the long string of things
> going wrong, she turns out to be apparently fine, and all is
> well for now. "I must be getting better, cuz you're making fun
> of me." And with a discussion about "Bible study" (the text is
> thin enough to switch places with the subtext) of the kind that
> I can't imagine ever having with a parent
Neither can Buffy, usually. It's just that Buffy and her mom are
talking like best friends and this leads Buffy to say a bit more than
she ordinarily would before she catches herself and continues with the
extremely lame cover story.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Don Sample
wrote:
According to the script, what Marti was going for a moment of pity:
The whole fight takes about eight seconds - and the only other
creature left standing in the alley besides Buffy is the junkie
vampire girl who bit Riley. The girl trembles, wide-eyed,
before Buffy. Clearly messed up and harmless. Buffy hesitates.
She can't kill this one. It stinks of pointless vengeance.
Buffy slumps, spent and feeling no better for the raw display
of power. A beat as the junkie girl realizes she's being
spared. Then the girl takes off running down the alley.
CLOSE ON BUFFY
As she hears the girl retreat. Buffy doesn't move... The
moment plays out for an unusually long time... As long as it
took Buffy to kill those vampires...
Then, without warning, Buffy hurtles her weapon toward the
retreating vampire girl. WHOMP! She impales the junkie vamp
girl. DUST. The double ended plank clatters to the ground...
Buffy just stands there - looking at the space where the
vampire girls just was. Expressionless.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Apteryx
news:B2Fmg.508$Aw6...@fe04.lga...
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>> threads.
>
> This is the one HE was with! Should I just let her go?
>
> <beat>
>
> Ah, screw it! <dustage>
> --
recognises the vamp and her normal slaying instincts are initially replaced
with a murderous instinct to kill a rival. Then she realises that's wrong,
and lets her go. Then she has a Duh moment when she realises "Hey, she's
still a friggin' vampire" and throws the stake. Or maybe the murderous
instinct just won out.
--
Apteryx
Apteryx
news:1150978063.4...@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> Season Five, Episode 10: "Into The Woods"
> (or "Seriously, goodbye, Iowa. Go away.")
> Writer: Marti Noxon
> Director: Marti Noxon
>
> the hallowed halls of "Written And Directed By" credits.
>
> The show plays with our minds a little to start, having the suspense
> moment at the end of the teaser being Buffy waiting to hear the news
> about Joyce. And after the long string of things going wrong, she
> turns out to be apparently fine, and all is well for now.
The only way I would have forgiven them for that cheesy last scene in
Listening to Fear, of Joyce disappearing through the doors to surgery would
have been if they had parodied here by running that scene backwards here. An
opportunity missed :)
>
> In turn, that exchange is the lead-in to the big chase scene at the
> end. (Doesn't Riley carry a cell-phone?)
Cellphones not big in Sunnydale. Maybe the Hellmouth causes reception
problems? Though in fact Riley used one in the last episode. So either he
lost it, or he didn't give his girlfriend his number. Or maybe it just
confirms the reception problem theory, because he was out of town where the
Queller landed when he used it last week.
> And since I mentioned Anya, Caulfield gets yet another opportunity to
> shine from the background. I can see why people are so nuts about her
> comedic timing, and her character's range is getting to expand as she
> starts to pick up a few of the nuances of Sunnydale conversation
> combined with finding a new way to channel her attitude. Line of the
> episode: "That's so very humorous. Make fun of the ex-demon! I can
> just hear you in private. 'I dislike that Anya. She's newly human and
> strangely literal.'"
Yep, that was a good one.
>
> One-sentence summary: A few over-the-top speeches mar an otherwise
> strong effort.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
I'd have said a few OTT speeches further mar an otherwise less weak effort.
It's not that I'm against romantic melodrama. I've got as big a collection
of Jane Austen novels and movie and TV adaptations as the next man. But that
is the point. Romantic melodrama has been done. And done. And done and done
and done. Sometimes by experts. So you need to be pretty good if you are
going to throw your hat into that ring. And Marti Noxon is no Jane Austen.
So get back to mythic stories with a bit of comedy please show.
Funnily enough this episode has probably risen more in my ratings in the
last two times I've seen it than any other, because I am now no longer
further irritated by not seeing where Riley is coming from, or from Buffy
apparently being blamed (I think we can see why Buffy would be irritated by
feeling blamed, but we the audience don't need to be). I think between the
last 2 viewings, I have raised my rating on this episode by almost half a
point. But it is so far out on the wrong end of the bell curve, that even
with that scale of increase, there aren't that many episodes out there for
it to overtake in my rankings. I think that rating increase has only lead to
a 7 place improvement in its overall ranking, and only 2 within season 5.
Currently it is my 132nd favourite BtVS episode, 18th best in season 5.
--
Apteryx
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Whatever. Neither Riley nor Buffy sold this to me throughout the
> season. The inability to talk to each other was daytime soap opera at
> its worst.
> Nothing organic here. All forced. Did not work for me.
I think it's been nicely built up to all season, but I can see where
milage could vary.
> And Xander's moment of realization as to Anya? (jryy, gurl fperj gung
> hc erny tbbq va gur arkg frnfba) . Again forced, and not natural.
But complaining about this puzzles me, since it seemed like such a
natural transition. If it helps, it's not played as a big realization
for Xander. He and Anya know what they mean to each other. It's him
taking the chance to articulate it, spurred on by having recently seen
the stuff with Buffy and Riley. Chicks (and somewhat-bland
soldier-boys) sometimes feel the need to have you tell them you lvoe
them, even if you both already knew that.
-AOQ
Don Sample
wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1150978063.4...@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > In turn, that exchange is the lead-in to the big chase scene at the
> > end. (Doesn't Riley carry a cell-phone?)
>
> Cellphones not big in Sunnydale. Maybe the Hellmouth causes reception
> problems? Though in fact Riley used one in the last episode. So either he
> lost it, or he didn't give his girlfriend his number. Or maybe it just
> confirms the reception problem theory, because he was out of town where the
> Queller landed when he used it last week.
Whether Riley had a cell phone or not is irrelevant, since Buffy doesn't
have one to call him with.
Apteryx
news:dsample-C5E81F...@news.giganews.com...
> In article <e7fg6f$3c4$1...@nntp.aioe.org>, "Apteryx" <apt...@xtra.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1150978063.4...@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>> > In turn, that exchange is the lead-in to the big chase scene at the
>> > end. (Doesn't Riley carry a cell-phone?)
>>
>> Cellphones not big in Sunnydale. Maybe the Hellmouth causes reception
>> problems? Though in fact Riley used one in the last episode. So either he
>> lost it, or he didn't give his girlfriend his number. Or maybe it just
>> confirms the reception problem theory, because he was out of town where
>> the
>> Queller landed when he used it last week.
>
> Whether Riley had a cell phone or not is irrelevant, since Buffy doesn't
> have one to call him with.
Pay-phone?
--
Apteryx
Arbitrar Of Quality
One Bit Shy wrote:
> Does Willow's irritating moment
> with Xander's watch and the clock on the wall feed at all into the Xander B
> story you mention?
I don't understand the question.
> I really like that scene. It's easy to imagine a younger Dawn runnning
> squealing through the house with the chopsticks in her mouth and Buffy
> stalking her saying, "I'm going to get you, you evil vampire you." It
> really emphasizes the family sense that they would make a sister game of
> vampire slaying.
Yeah, it's very much like one would expect knowing the characters (and
not knowing that one of them didn't actually exist at the time).
> This is where I revert to my own childhood and go, yuck, it's the kissing
> scene. I cannot adequately express how boring I found this. How lacking in
> feeling. I suppose part of the point of it is to *not* be convincing. But
> I still had to watch it, and very much felt like throwing popcorn at the
> screen. I cannot think of any other romance/sex scene in BtVS that has left
> me so disinterested.
I think "Where The Wild Things Are" spoiled me into thinking highly of
any other sex scene by comparison.
> And in the slayfest near the end she offed seven vampires in short order.
> Some of the slickest slaying she's ever done. I guess evidencing the
> effects of a kind of focus.
I think the most spread-out damage we've seen her do was in "When She
Was Bad." It was a good scene then, but it seemed a little weird to
make her such a great killer so early in the series's life (they knew
they'd get at least five seasons at the point, right?).
> I don't care to relive the conversation. I think it speaks for iteself
> pretty well. This and the Xander conversation I think cover most of the
> factors at work. I believe the writers were working hard to spell it out.
> Maybe they'd seen themselves the fan conversations complaining they didn't
> understand. I will say, though, that neither Buffy nor Riley ever really
> understand where the other is coming from, or usefully adapt to each other.
I might've had the same complaints, so I guess it was a good idea. It
does seem so... talky, but I don't have a good alternative.
And that particular problem with Buffy and Riley has been part of their
relationship since before they had a relationship.
> In the end I think Riley and Buffy share responsibility for what happened -
> and, yes, I studiously avoided the word blame. They are each in their own
> way trapped by their natures, their misperceptions, and a very heavy dose of
> circumstance preventing them from staying together. Proverbial ships
> passing on a foggy night. So close, that just the slightest look to the
> side could have changed everything. But it didn't happen.
IAWTP.
> There's a kind of standard sappy quality to what was done with this scene,
> but I like it for it being representative of how close they got to each
> other. And how absolute the break is.
Hey, not a bad little pickup at all..
> > Xander really does
> > speak ze language of love. Sometimes, anyway.
>
> More of his maturity. I'm really impressed that he would take the lesson he
> saw with Buffy/Riley and apply it to himself and Anya.
Is this the first time we've seen a character actually apply a lesson
to himself that way? BTVS characters are usually more proficient in
ignoring their own advice, so this was a nice change.
-AOQ
kenm47
I thought it was a big "Aha" for Xander as played. He's realized he's
critiquing Buffy for the same kind of lack of communication of feelings
as he himself with Anya. That's how I saw it. Anya has shown she is in
near constant need of reaffirmation. Xander had been holding back.
Ken (Brooklyn)
One Bit Shy
>
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>> Does Willow's irritating moment
>> with Xander's watch and the clock on the wall feed at all into the Xander
>> B
>> story you mention?
>
> I don't understand the question.
I guess the answer is no. <g> It's kind of obscure. In the Magic Box,
Anya gets very irritated - especially with Willow - and Xander clamps down
on Anya a little, which annoys Anya more because Xander is taking sides
against her. There's nothing wrong with Xander's behavior then, but Anya
isn't entirely out of line either. Willow does bait her. It's one of the
little reasons Xander has to think it a good idea to lay it out to Anya how
much he feels for her. Anyway, the scene in the hospital where Willow asks
Xander what time it is could serve as a recent reminder to Xander that
Willow can in fact be irritating. A reason to see the Magic Box incident
through Anya's eyes.
I don't know that there's really any connection, but I've wondered why the
clock incident was put there.
>> More of his maturity. I'm really impressed that he would take the lesson
>> he
>> saw with Buffy/Riley and apply it to himself and Anya.
>
> Is this the first time we've seen a character actually apply a lesson
> to himself that way? BTVS characters are usually more proficient in
> ignoring their own advice, so this was a nice change.
I'm not coming up with another example quickly.
On the other hand, I'm not sure their advice is particularly good all that
often anyway.
OBS
Ian Galbraith
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>> threads.
>>
>>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Five, Episode 10: "Into The Woods"
>> (or "Seriously, goodbye, Iowa. Go away.")
>> Writer: Marti Noxon
>> Director: Marti Noxon
>>
>> Directorial debut for Marti, I think, joining Joss, David, and Tim in
>> the hallowed halls of "Written And Directed By" credits.
>>
>
> <SNIP>
>
>> So...
>>
>> One-sentence summary: A few over-the-top speeches mar an otherwise
>> strong effort.
>>
>> AOQ rating: Good
>>
>> [Season Five so far:
>> 1) "Buffy Vs. Dracula" - Good
>> 2) "Real Me" - Decent
>> 3) "The Replacement" - Good
>> 4) "Out Of My Mind" - Weak
>> 5) "No Place Like Home" - Decent
>> 6) "Family" - Excellent
>> 7) "Fool For Love" - Excellent
>> 8) "Shadow" - Good
>> 9) "Listening To Fear" - Decent
>> 10) "Into The Woods" - Good]
> Feh.
> Much of the season to now has been this contorted effort to dump Riley
> from the cast list for who knows why? Maybe no Q factor with the
> fanbase?
> Whatever. Neither Riley nor Buffy sold this to me throughout the
> season. The inability to talk to each other was daytime soap opera at
> its worst.
And Buffy/Angel in S2 prior to Innocence wasn't? The show always had a
soap element.
[snip]
--
You can't stop the signal
cry...@panix.com
> Anyway, the scene in the hospital where Willow asks Xander what
> time it is could serve as a recent reminder to Xander that
> Willow can in fact be irritating. A reason to see the Magic Box
> incident through Anya's eyes.
>
> I don't know that there's really any connection, but I've
> wondered why the clock incident was put there.
I didn't see it that way. I identified more with Willow, reacting
to Xander's crabbiness. But two very close friends acting the way
they were (especially Xander) serves to illustrate the tension, in
my opinion. Nothing deeper than that. Or at least, nothing
deeper than that that I noticed! (I miss things sometimes.)
> Arbitrar of Quality wrote:
>
> > Is this the first time we've seen a character actually apply a
> > lesson to himself that way? BTVS characters are usually more
> > proficient in ignoring their own advice, so this was a nice
> > change.
>
> I'm not coming up with another example quickly.
>
> On the other hand, I'm not sure their advice is particularly good all that
> often anyway.
Does Spike in Lover's Walk count? It wasn't exactly advice he
gave to anyone else, but he did realize on his own what he needed
to do and sort of self-advised. . . . Maybe not. :-)
--
-Crystal
KenM47
OK. If so, for me at this point we were in overkill then. Whatever.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > kenm47 wrote:
> > > And Xander's moment of realization as to Anya? (jryy, gurl fperj gung
> > > hc erny tbbq va gur arkg frnfba) . Again forced, and not natural.
> >
> > But complaining about this puzzles me, since it seemed like such a
> > natural transition. If it helps, it's not played as a big realization
> > for Xander. He and Anya know what they mean to each other. It's him
> > taking the chance to articulate it, spurred on by having recently seen
> > the stuff with Buffy and Riley. Chicks (and somewhat-bland
> > soldier-boys) sometimes feel the need to have you tell them you lvoe
> > them, even if you both already knew that.
> I thought it was a big "Aha" for Xander as played. He's realized he's
> critiquing Buffy for the same kind of lack of communication of feelings
> as he himself with Anya. That's how I saw it. Anya has shown she is in
> near constant need of reaffirmation. Xander had been holding back.
Ah, okay, I misunderstood the complaint. In that case, I agree with
your interpretation (slightly smaller "aha" in my world, though), and
fail to see what's wrong with it. He's realized that it's important to
avoid making the same mistake Buffy did, and acts on that knowledge.
Makes sense to me.
-AOQ
Jeff Jacoby
>
> One Bit Shy wrote:
[snip]
>> I don't care to relive the conversation. I think it speaks for iteself
>> pretty well. This and the Xander conversation I think cover most of the
>> factors at work. I believe the writers were working hard to spell it out.
>> Maybe they'd seen themselves the fan conversations complaining they didn't
>> understand. I will say, though, that neither Buffy nor Riley ever really
>> understand where the other is coming from, or usefully adapt to each other.
>
> I might've had the same complaints, so I guess it was a good idea. It
> does seem so... talky, but I don't have a good alternative.
>
> And that particular problem with Buffy and Riley has been part of their
> relationship since before they had a relationship.
They were doomed from the start...
RILEY: Welcome to the story of the world. Things fall apart Buffy.
And evil - it comes and goes. But the way people manage is,
they don't do it alone. They pull each other through. If you
weren't so self involved you'd see that.
BUFFY: You have no idea what you're talking about. You barely know me.
("Doomed")
Jeff
One Bit Shy
> One Bit Shy <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
>> Anyway, the scene in the hospital where Willow asks Xander what
>> time it is could serve as a recent reminder to Xander that
>> Willow can in fact be irritating. A reason to see the Magic Box
>> incident through Anya's eyes.
>>
>> I don't know that there's really any connection, but I've
>> wondered why the clock incident was put there.
>
> I didn't see it that way. I identified more with Willow, reacting
> to Xander's crabbiness. But two very close friends acting the way
> they were (especially Xander) serves to illustrate the tension, in
> my opinion. Nothing deeper than that. Or at least, nothing
> deeper than that that I noticed! (I miss things sometimes.)
If she hadn't turned around to look at the clock too I'd be with you. But
she did. So I'll give the irritation award to Ms. Rosenberg. But you're
probably right about the tension of the moment being the real deal. I'm
probably overthinking stuff.
OBS
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> In article <e7fg6f$3c4$1...@nntp.aioe.org>, "Apteryx" <apt...@xtra.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
> > "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1150978063.4...@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > In turn, that exchange is the lead-in to the big chase scene at the
> > > end. (Doesn't Riley carry a cell-phone?)
> >
> > Cellphones not big in Sunnydale. Maybe the Hellmouth causes reception
> > problems? Though in fact Riley used one in the last episode. So either he
> > lost it, or he didn't give his girlfriend his number. Or maybe it just
> > confirms the reception problem theory, because he was out of town where the
> > Queller landed when he used it last week.
>
> Whether Riley had a cell phone or not is irrelevant, since Buffy doesn't
> have one to call him with.
buffy doesnt seem to good with technology
cell phones or guns or cars
though she can handle rocket launchers
KenM47
I can't complete the thought for a number of reasons.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Espen Schjønberg
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Five, Episode 10: "Into The Woods"
> (or "Seriously, goodbye, Iowa. Go away.")
> The idea that Buffy wasn't emotionally open before this moment is, of
> course, also a big factor in what goes down here; I'm not dismissing
> it, just trying not to overstate that case. This theme comes up a lot
> in the second big two-character scene, in which Xander confronts his
> role model. Ah yes, Xander as Buffy's occasional spiritual/emotional
> guide; good to see that again, after over a year of the show having
> forgotten about it.
Absolutely. I agree to blame her may ring false, but...
> In turn, that exchange is the lead-in to the big chase scene at the
> end. (Doesn't Riley carry a cell-phone?) ITW goes for all-out
> unapologetic melodrama here, with the music and panoramic shots to go
> with the frantic sprint. Obviously she'll either make it just in
> time or be just barely too late, but since I could imagine it going
> either way, it was pretty okay suspense-wise.
At this stage, I for the first time had any sympathy for Riley. Possibly
because he didn't deserve it, isn't humans fun?
But the point is: at last, Buffy admits to herself she doesn't love him
the way she loved Angel. What has happened, is he was being driven into
the ground by his own emotions- he loved her, she didn't love him (in
the expensive version of the word), she said she did, but she didn't-
and she didn't even realize she lied. (or "lied").
Of course, the ultimate story about the girl who settles with something
less- an ancient story, is the saga of Gunnlaug Ormstunge (which I
cannot find in English.) But the girl there knows what she is doing when
she settles for the lesser man, and how can we tell Riley Finn hadn't
accepted this if he had known she knew? Based on the story from the
season started, it looked like he tried to accept it. But how could he,
when she didn't even realize?
I do 'feel' they could have done better here if they actually had
followed the beaten path (which you guys don't have on reading list in
high-school), and not decided to actually let him leave just because
everybody hated him.
> Seems like it's been awhile since we've had one of those sequences
> with Buffy stabbing everything and everyone in sight. Lots of good
> killin' visuals, especially the one she takes out while it's in
> midair. When will the undead learn that she's not the right Slayer
> to get angry? Pretending to give the suck-whore a chance to escape is
> pretty mean.
We have been discussing this in rot13 a lot, for not to long ago.
She doesn't kill her because it is her job, or even because it is who
she are, but to get back at her. It _is_ mean.
Normally, she doesn't actually seem to kill demons who is not evil evil
things anymore, and is this vamp a vamp who only feeds of the willing?
It is not a clear case anymore. Of course, given the lore here, it is
just a thing and a legal kill. But then Spike should have been pretty
must just a few grains of dust now...
> AOQ rating: Good
I have so mixed emotions about this one.
--
Espen
kenm47
Espen Schjønberg wrote:
<SNIP>
>
> > Seems like it's been awhile since we've had one of those sequences
> > with Buffy stabbing everything and everyone in sight. Lots of good
> > killin' visuals, especially the one she takes out while it's in
> > midair. When will the undead learn that she's not the right Slayer
> > to get angry? Pretending to give the suck-whore a chance to escape is
> > pretty mean.
>
> We have been discussing this in rot13 a lot, for not to long ago.
>
> She doesn't kill her because it is her job, or even because it is who
> she are, but to get back at her. It _is_ mean.
>
> Normally, she doesn't actually seem to kill demons who is not evil evil
> things anymore, and is this vamp a vamp who only feeds of the willing?
>
> It is not a clear case anymore. Of course, given the lore here, it is
> just a thing and a legal kill. But then Spike should have been pretty
> must just a few grains of dust now...
>
Put me in the "Agreed" column.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Bill Reid
Elisi <eli...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1150992589.1...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>
> Well we all know that the stupid show went downhill in the later
> seasons because Buffy lost a lot of weight and stopped wearing ultra
> short mini skirts!
>
Actually, what killed the show was the verisimilitude that as she
matured from teen-age, she learned how to dress herself, and we
no longer saw exposed bra-straps...or for that matter, in one scene
in season two, when she was wearing a loose-fitting sleeveless blouse
and she turned sideways, you could see her entire bra...
---
William Ernest Reid
kenm47
So now I've rewatched the episode. Now I remember how distasteful I
thought it was the first time. Came off to me like a bunch of Marti's
projections re her "issues": drugs, boyfriends, cheating boyfriends,
"bad boy" boyfriends, sex, etc.
Jarringly out of place with the rest. And I think this was where I
fully developed a dislike for Spike and wanted him dusted if he wasn't
in a buffoonish comic foil capacity. After all, Buffy's job
description, as she put it, is pretty clear.
Feh!. Double feh!
Ken (Brooklyn)
ajs...@aol.com
make Buffy feel worse.
He didn't tell Buffy about Willow's plan to reensoul Angel, and
wham, Buffy's so traumatized that she runs away from home.
Then when Buffy naturally decides to let the creep who got caught
cheating on her with undead hookers and then has the nerve to blame her
for it and give her an ultimatum, he decides that's the perfect time to
convince his friend that said creep is the one in a million prince
charming.
Who needs demons when you have Xander to emotionally abuse Buffy?
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Five, Episode 10: "Into The Woods"
> (or "Seriously, goodbye, Iowa. Go away.")
> Director: Marti Noxon
>
> The show plays with our minds a little to start, having the suspense
> moment at the end of the teaser being Buffy waiting to hear the news
> about Joyce. And after the long string of things going wrong, she
> turns out to be apparently fine, and all is well for now.
IIRC, there's a subtle bit after the gang gets the good news about Joyce,
when Riley seems slightly disappointed that he isn't the first one Buffy
hugs, nor does he get a more boyfriendly hug than the other friends get.
Sure, they do lots of celebrating that night, but at the big moment, he's
just one of the gang.
> Standard practice is to have them engaging in copious amounts of sex
> (as Dawn riffs on in the fun little companion scene at Xander's new
> place)
I love that scene. "And after we teach her to gamble, we could all get
drunk!" "The chimp playing hockey? Is that based on the Chekhov?" "We
have to see the chimp playing hockey! That's hilarious! Ice is so
slippery, and monkeys are all irrational." "Oh. Does that mean we can't?"
> in the second big two-character scene, in which Xander confronts his
> role model. Ah yes, Xander as Buffy's occasional spiritual/emotional
> guide; good to see that again, after over a year of the show having
> forgotten about it. Again, not nuts about the excess blame-Buffy
> stuff, but like how it comes off as a moment among friends who're
> riled up enough to hit each other with the blunt words. Love the way
> Xander defies the TV convention of allowing melodramatically stalking
> away to automatically end a conversation. Not today.
I'm one who loves the Buffy-Xander confrontation. Insightful Xander was
in top form that night, especially when he points out that it isn't the
time to worry about whether it was "fair" for Riley to give Buffy an
ultimatum. But despite that, I also think that in the end he was
misjudging the situation. When Xander tells Buffy to either make an
all-out commitment to Riley or let him go, he clearly thinks that the
former is the right choice to make, but IMO it was the latter. When you
get right down to it, Buffy and Riley just weren't right for each other.
> In turn, that exchange is the lead-in to the big chase scene at the
> end. (Doesn't Riley carry a cell-phone?)
He does, but at this point Buffy and Xander don't.
I always thought that the shot where Riley stares straight ahead while we
see Buffy through his side window was just a little *too* manipulative.
> AOQ rating: Good
I'd give it a very low Good or a high Decent.
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
Forgot to mention in my earlier post:
Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> When will the undead learn that she's not the right Slayer
> to get angry? Pretending to give the suck-whore a chance to escape is
> pretty mean.
I haven't rewatched recently, but IIRC, Buffy's facial expressions didn't
look like she was deliberately "pretending to give the suck-whore a chance
to escape." When she found herself facing the s-w, it looked like she
really did lose the killing urge. Instead, she seemed to be overcome by
sadness and futility -- after all, Riley was the one she was really angry
at, and killing the vamps wouldn't change that. But as she watched the
s-w run away, her anger boiled up again, and the killing rage resurfaced.
There was no deliberate, cruel deception. At least, that's the way I saw
it.