AOQ Angel Review 5-21: "Power Play"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
ANGEL
Season Five, Episode 21: "Power Play"
(or "It's not about right, not about wrong. It's about... well, you
know")
Writer: David Fury
Director: James A. Contner
"Power Play" is an episode that mostly works in theory and is hit and
miss in execution. The hits generally outnumber the misses, but it
conveys the same sense that the last few episodes of BTVS did, that
there's a good story being told by a narrator with a speech impediment
(just came up with that one. I'm kinda proud of it). I think that
the meaning is conveyed well enough to entertain, and the problems are
more of an annoyance than a crippling flaw. But let's go through both
the good and less good:
Starting at the beginning, I'm generally not a fan of the "19 hours
earlier..." trope. By which I mostly mean that I'm tired of it when it
serves no real narrative purpose. In this instance, however, even
though it's pure gimmick, it serves a thematic purpose, if not a plot
one. It gives the episode a bit of the "this is big stuff" feel it
needs to color the lightness of Angel's first real-time appearance in
his scene with Nina. With regard to the Angel/Nina relationship I
feel somewhat cheated that the show has steadfastly refused to give us
a chance to watch it develop either pre- or post-"Smile Time." I like
both characters, and I like Angel getting a chance at a non-
overwrought romance, but we never see any of it. I'm aware that ATS
operates on the principle that gloom is more entertaining than joy,
but this season has sometimes crossed the line past "no one is ever
allowed to be happy for any sustained period of time... and if they do,
it's off-screen." What we see in "Power Play" is good in the relaxed
affection of the bedroom scene, and Nina gets some great lines (see
the QWQ section). Of course, Angel does the hero thing and sends her
away, presumably off the show forever, which tantalizes the viewer
with a strong hint that he's not what he seems in the W&H scenes.
Will get to the W&H plot in a second, but I'd like to make mention of
the Spike/Illyria exchange as she finds a new partner in exploring
humanity from the outside. He's actually almost a better foil for her
than Wesley once we leave the Fred stuff behind (although Spike has a
good line about that too). In an ideal world there'd be lots more
show and they'd get lots of scenes together, and he would exclusively
address her as "Blue" (I really like that for some reason).
So, our hero's sold out, or so he wants us to believe. A plot which
keeps the viewer wondering throughout, dangling bits of hope that he's
playing a game (especially given that it's the second to last
episode). Weaving in past events like Fred's death - Angel loved her
(but then, so did Knox...) but won't give a direct answer about it.
It's a mostly good premise. The complaints are taking up a lot more
space as I'm writing this, so let me take a second to emphasize that I
do appreciate a lot of this. I'm kinda swept up in it, in fact. But
just a smidgeon of subtlety or restraint would have gone a long way
here. He's practically waving signs around, giving some of the
ludicriously over-the-top speechifying that he mocked Illyria for a
couple episodes ago. If there's a drinking game built around clunky
speeches, the "get to the top, be the best" rant is sure to get
everyone in the room trashed. The extent of this transformation seems
too extreme to happen so quickly, a problem which applies regardless
of whether it's sincere or a ploy. Perhaps equally damning, the
individual scenes sometimes play out in boring ways. Even if one
doesn't know where the overall plot is going, one knows that, say, the
senator will propose a plan that involves sodomizing kittens and force-
feeding their bones to minority children with cancer or whatever, Gunn
will begin a righteous tirade against it, and Angel will cut him off
and play along, much to his lawyer's worried annoyance. In that
regard "Power Play" is the opposite of the best moments of the
Buffyverse, since when the shows are at their best, one is wrong half
the time when trying to chart the direction of a new scene.
Spike jumps in as the street-fighting hero, as he's wont to do when
Angel falters or pretends to. And truth-teller guy from AHITW is
involved here, rather abruptly "revealing" that Angel wanted to bring
back Illyria. Yet again, I'm appreciating the scope of the plot
(don't know where the obsession with betraying a friend comes in, but
after all the harping on it, it turns out to have allegedly already
happened weeks ago. I like that kind of thing), and the way the
actors are behaving (Denisof is a standout, as always) but not so much
the dialogue. Good to see that Lindsey's not forgotten, even if it's
a bit of a drive-by role. The video games at the apartment seem like
they should make for a funnier premise than actually emerges, although
I like the line "it is a test, a task of some sort. You must collect
those crystals. And the fruit." Sadly Illyria doesn't get to be part
of the team, and Corporate Jayne gets to bust out his badass side for
the first time in awhile. Their fight does a good job making her look
competent while making him look all more deadly, and it's sickeningly
one-sided. That's left on a bit of a suspense moment too... hope she's
okay.
And that's how we got to where we were, with Angel striding
dramatically in to eat the victim and achieve his final destiny.
Which in part involves a cocktail party (of DOOM!) with some of Season
Five's schmoozers, helping retroactively give more significance to the
episodes in which they debuted. Even though the payoff for now is
just another ritual and villain group, there's no doubt that this is
the big moment. After a very nice shot of our hero striding through
the empty building, there's the ending non-confrontation which nicely
transitions into Angel explaining the plot to us as well as to his
employees. And it's steeped in the past. Bringing it all back to
Cordelia feels very appropriate. "You're Welcome" and everything
after it makes a new kind of sense as part of this bigger design of
putting him on this path. And Angel being spurred to fight back by
Fred's death as the catalyst... cool. It's a clever twist to the point
where I really want it to work, and am forcibly trying to make it make
total sense. There's again the nagging feeling, though, that it kinda
comes out of nowhere, with no evidence that the writers had any idea
they were going this direction prior to "Time Bomb." My guess as to
why is that, well, they had no idea that this would be the story prior
to "Time Bomb," what with the cancellation and all. It shows.
As I hope the show realizes, there's an irony that I kinda like in the
fact that it brings its own layer of moral issues. It's only by
starting his plan to take down the Black Thorn that Dead Boy becomes
what they want him to be - taking an active rather than a passive role
in refusing help to people in need, handing out human blood, giving
away babies to be sacrificed, and, of course, killing. He never did
that stuff while he was complacent with the corruption. The grandiose
nature of the plan itself is vintage Angel, a mix of Buffy-esque
changing the rules with ATS's thing about endless fights and cruel
Universes. Lindsey in a way helps inspire our hero to make it his
game and send a message to the gods that've helped shape the past five
seasons. And in the meantime, Hamilton... well, the first time I
watched that part, I wasn't actually clear on whether he's seeing
through the glamour or not. Okay. One hundred nine down...
Quotes Worth Quoting:
- "Did you catch how I subtly included myself in your vacation
package?... Too pushy, too needy, I never even said it. You should
make love on the beach all by yourself"
- "He and I are no longer having intercourse"
- "You may not think you're as powerful as you were, Highness, but
looking like Fred, for some of us... it's the most devastating power
you have"
- "Guess I don't have to worry about that, cuz Angel and me have never
been intimate. Except that one..."
- "Yes, why the sudden need to tie up loose ends...?" [insert your
own joke here]
- "That's typical. You sleep with a guy and he sends your entire
family out of the country. No, wait, that's actually not that typical
at all. You couldn't just not call?"
- "Uh, do you want me to point my crossbow at him? 'Cause I think
he's gonna start talking about ants again"
- "I'm talking full-on hell, not the basic fire-and-brimstone kind
we're used to"
So...
One-sentence summary: I think it works for me.
AOQ rating: Good
[Season Five so far:
1) "Conviction" - Weak
2) "Just Rewards" - Good
3) "Unleashed" - Good
4) "Hell Bound" - Decent
5) "Life Of The Party" - Weak
6) "The Cautionary Tale Of Numero Cinco" - Decent
7) "Lineage" - Good
8) "Destiny" - Good
9) "Harm's Way" - Good
10) "Soul Purpose" - Good
11) "Damage" - Good
12) "You're Welcome" - Good
13) "Why We Fight" - Weak
14) "Smile Time" - Excellent
15) "A Hole In The World" - Decent
16) "Shells" - Good
17) "Underneath" - Good
18) "Origin" - Excellent
19) "Time Bomb" - Decent
20) "The Girl In Question" - Weak
21) "Power Play" - Good]
One Bit Shy
news:1173163621....@8g2000cwh.googlegroups.com...
> ANGEL
> Season Five, Episode 21: "Power Play"
> it
> conveys the same sense that the last few episodes of BTVS did, that
> there's a good story being told by a narrator with a speech impediment
> (just came up with that one. I'm kinda proud of it).
I smiled at it. It's pretty accurate too.
> What we see in "Power Play" is good in the relaxed
> affection of the bedroom scene, and Nina gets some great lines (see
> the QWQ section). Of course, Angel does the hero thing and sends her
> away, presumably off the show forever, which tantalizes the viewer
> with a strong hint that he's not what he seems in the W&H scenes.
I'm not sure what I think of those scenes. I would have liked more of Nina
all season - if for no other reason than to have *something* not confined to
W&H on an ongoing basis. (I suppose that would have screwed up TGIQ though,
and I'm sure you wouldn't have wanted that.) But it didn't happen that way.
Consequently, the play of this is a little off for me. Like Angel and Nina
are way further progressed than we knew about - and how did that not get
reflected in Angel's personality in the meantime? The scenes just don't
feel earned.
I still like them though. And I do have to give the show some slack in
constructing a series end on relatively short notice.
The biggest thing these scenes seem to do - as you noted - is suggest that
Angel hasn't really turned bad and cold like he's acting with others.
(Though he also hints that the big thing he's going to do may be morally
questionable.) I'm not sure if that's good or bad. On the one hand it lets
you go with Angel's over the top bad guy act without getting all bent over
it not seeming real - since this is already telling you it's not real. On
the other hand it cuts into the impact of being told it's a ploy at the end.
So I'm not sure.
> I'd like to make mention of
> the Spike/Illyria exchange as she finds a new partner in exploring
> humanity from the outside. He's actually almost a better foil for her
> than Wesley once we leave the Fred stuff behind (although Spike has a
> good line about that too). In an ideal world there'd be lots more
> show and they'd get lots of scenes together, and he would exclusively
> address her as "Blue" (I really like that for some reason).
That's a good observation. I was looking at something else and rather
missed that.
What struck me about their first exchange this episode is how sharp Spike
was himself. The tone of his voice and look on his face really support the
expression of insight. This is the smart and aware Spike that had been a
critical part of his character, but seemed to have been lost lately with all
the comic relief. I jumped a little seeing it come out here. And wished
I'd seen more of it this season.
> So, our hero's sold out, or so he wants us to believe. A plot which
> keeps the viewer wondering throughout, dangling bits of hope that he's
> playing a game (especially given that it's the second to last
> episode). Weaving in past events like Fred's death - Angel loved her
> (but then, so did Knox...) but won't give a direct answer about it.
> It's a mostly good premise. The complaints are taking up a lot more
> space as I'm writing this, so let me take a second to emphasize that I
> do appreciate a lot of this. I'm kinda swept up in it, in fact.
So am I. It's the episode's strongest feature. It's intriguing in spite of
any stumbles showing it. I'm rather impressed they wove as much complexity
into Angel's plan as they did - raveling and unraveling it rather smoothly.
> But
> just a smidgeon of subtlety or restraint would have gone a long way
> here. He's practically waving signs around, giving some of the
> ludicriously over-the-top speechifying that he mocked Illyria for a
> couple episodes ago. If there's a drinking game built around clunky
> speeches, the "get to the top, be the best" rant is sure to get
> everyone in the room trashed. The extent of this transformation seems
> too extreme to happen so quickly, a problem which applies regardless
> of whether it's sincere or a ploy. Perhaps equally damning, the
> individual scenes sometimes play out in boring ways. Even if one
> doesn't know where the overall plot is going, one knows that, say, the
> senator will propose a plan that involves sodomizing kittens and force-
> feeding their bones to minority children with cancer or whatever, Gunn
> will begin a righteous tirade against it, and Angel will cut him off
> and play along, much to his lawyer's worried annoyance. In that
> regard "Power Play" is the opposite of the best moments of the
> Buffyverse, since when the shows are at their best, one is wrong half
> the time when trying to chart the direction of a new scene.
Fair criticisms. The one I would add is that the episode spends one heck of
a lot of time standing around and explaining stuff.
> After a very nice shot of our hero striding through
> the empty building, there's the ending non-confrontation which nicely
> transitions into Angel explaining the plot to us as well as to his
> employees.
Which continues the standing around and explaining stuff, but this time with
a device that I have to laugh in appreciation of. Essentially they have to
bring everything to a crashing halt to explain to everybody - including the
audience - just what the hell is going on. So they literally put the world
on hold with a magic spell so that everybody can - in a sense - get out of
character and just spell it out. Of course it helps that the information
and proposal is so big.
> And it's steeped in the past. Bringing it all back to
> Cordelia feels very appropriate. "You're Welcome" and everything
> after it makes a new kind of sense as part of this bigger design of
> putting him on this path.
Maybe. I didn't really like that element. It was the one that seemed
especially out of the blue to me. Convenient. It lets Angel just know all
about the secret cabal.
> And Angel being spurred to fight back by
> Fred's death as the catalyst... cool.
Way cool. That little bit is my favorite thing in the episode. I'm really
impressed at how the show keeps adding resonance to Fred's death, ultimately
making it both the motivation and the means to the seeming cataclismic
ending to come.
> As I hope the show realizes, there's an irony that I kinda like in the
> fact that it brings its own layer of moral issues. It's only by
> starting his plan to take down the Black Thorn that Dead Boy becomes
> what they want him to be - taking an active rather than a passive role
> in refusing help to people in need, handing out human blood, giving
> away babies to be sacrificed, and, of course, killing. He never did
> that stuff while he was complacent with the corruption. The grandiose
> nature of the plan itself is vintage Angel, a mix of Buffy-esque
> changing the rules with ATS's thing about endless fights and cruel
> Universes. Lindsey in a way helps inspire our hero to make it his
> game and send a message to the gods that've helped shape the past five
> seasons. And in the meantime, Hamilton... well, the first time I
> watched that part, I wasn't actually clear on whether he's seeing
> through the glamour or not. Okay. One hundred nine down...
All good.
But where I run into trouble is the actual plan - and the buy in to it.
Back in Soul Purpose, a worn down Angel crazily bursts out, "Let's kill them
all." But it wasn't just the pressure then. He was actually going crazy
from the leech monster Eve had planted on him. I think that must be one of
the oddest pieces of major foreshadowing we've seen in these series.
What Angel is proposing now sure strikes me as crazy. If I understand his
words correctly, he just asked everybody to join him in a suicide run - and
they said yes.
I find this disturbing and an uncomfortable way to approach the end. It's
not that I don't doubt the idea as something Angel would come up with and
find appealing. We know all the way back to Acathla his attraction to big
final solutions. So this is definitely something real to the character and
the series. I could probably come up with solid reasons for the people in
the room to agree to it too.
But this is also one of the characteristics of himself that Angel has fought
against throughout the series run. Right now, the loudest message I hear
coming from Angel is that he's given up. I'm not happy with that. I'm not
happy with that being the culmination of a whole season churning within W&H.
I'm left with a bit of a sour taste in my mouth.
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: I think it works for me.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
I'd be there until the very end. That really took something out of me, and
leaves the episode a Decent in my book.
OBS
Apteryx
news:1173163621....@8g2000cwh.googlegroups.com...
> threads.
>
> feel somewhat cheated that the show has steadfastly refused to give us
> a chance to watch it develop either pre- or post-"Smile Time." I like
> both characters, and I like Angel getting a chance at a non-
> overwrought romance, but we never see any of it. I'm aware that ATS
> operates on the principle that gloom is more entertaining than joy,
> but this season has sometimes crossed the line past "no one is ever
> allowed to be happy for any sustained period of time... and if they do,
> it's off-screen."
But I think they do have a problem showing Angel in particular too much in a
cosy romantic relationship. Even though they have long since resiled from
the impression given in BtVS and early AtS that any good sex would bring
back Angelus, angst is still Angel's defining characteristic. He can only be
allowed to be happy (even if not perfectly happy) in small doses.
> Will get to the W&H plot in a second, but I'd like to make mention of
> the Spike/Illyria exchange as she finds a new partner in exploring
> humanity from the outside. He's actually almost a better foil for her
> than Wesley once we leave the Fred stuff behind (although Spike has a
> good line about that too). In an ideal world there'd be lots more
> show and they'd get lots of scenes together, and he would exclusively
> address her as "Blue" (I really like that for some reason).
Yep. Nobody gives Illyria the respect she's used to, but nobody is as
pointed about not giving it as Spike is.
> everyone in the room trashed. The extent of this transformation seems
> too extreme to happen so quickly, a problem which applies regardless
> of whether it's sincere or a ploy.
Yes. But even more so, if you step back and remember that is an American TV
show, it becomes impossible to believe that Angel's apparent corruption is
real. Shakespeare could pull off the story of the hero corrupted and
throwing it all away in the final act, but he'd never get it on TV.
But still, even though you know its an act, there is some interest in
finding out how he is going to turn it around, especially given his killing
of Drogyn.
> a bit of a drive-by role. The video games at the apartment seem like
> they should make for a funnier premise than actually emerges, although
> I like the line "it is a test, a task of some sort. You must collect
> those crystals. And the fruit."
There's just nothing bad about the video game. From the outrageousness of
Spike suggesting it, and AA's puzzled delivery on "Crash Bandicoot?" to the
payoff with Illyria's "I play this game. It's pointless and annoys me. And
yet, I am compelled to play on."
> And that's how we got to where we were, with Angel striding
> dramatically in to eat the victim and achieve his final destiny.
> Which in part involves a cocktail party (of DOOM!) with some of Season
> Five's schmoozers, helping retroactively give more significance to the
> episodes in which they debuted. Even though the payoff for now is
> just another ritual and villain group, there's no doubt that this is
> the big moment. After a very nice shot of our hero striding through
> the empty building, there's the ending non-confrontation which nicely
> transitions into Angel explaining the plot to us as well as to his
> employees. And it's steeped in the past. Bringing it all back to
> Cordelia feels very appropriate. "You're Welcome" and everything
> after it makes a new kind of sense as part of this bigger design of
> putting him on this path.
Not sure about that. I certainly can't see Cordelia approving of his killing
Drogyn. And it's hard to avoid the conclusion that if he is prepared to
embrace such an extreme solution, he has been at least a little corrupted by
his time in W&H, even though not turned by them. It's not the first time he
has done something like that, as we saw in WWF. But he wouldn't have done it
a year ago - certainly not two years ago. The writers have always offered
him solutions that didn't require it.
At least he doesn't make his friends - the surviving ones - complicit in the
murder. He significantly doesn't involve them until it's already done. The
only compromise they have to make is not to reject intelligence gathered in
such a manner.
> And Angel being spurred to fight back by
> Fred's death as the catalyst... cool. It's a clever twist to the point
> where I really want it to work, and am forcibly trying to make it make
> total sense. There's again the nagging feeling, though, that it kinda
> comes out of nowhere, with no evidence that the writers had any idea
> they were going this direction prior to "Time Bomb." My guess as to
> why is that, well, they had no idea that this would be the story prior
> to "Time Bomb," what with the cancellation and all. It shows.
I don't think its much different from any of the other Buffyverse years,
including the serialised ones. I think they always know how they are going
to finish (including this year - one of the commentaries on an earlier
episode has a writer talking about their aborted plans for season 6, and
those plans do depend on season 5 ending on broadly similar lines to its
actual ending) but don't have a clear idea of how they are going to get
there.
>
> One-sentence summary: I think it works for me.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
Episodes that are mostly set-up for the following episode are the hardest
for me to consistently rate, because most times I watch them I get a
different idea of how much of the credit or blame attaches to the set-up
episode, and how much to the payoff episode. I think I have changed my
rating for Power Play every single time I have watched it, although I think
always in the low Good/high Decent range. This time I opted to downgrade it
a little from what had been the highest rating I have ever given it (4.26,
or almost as close to the middle of the Good range as to the Good/Decent
boundary) to 4.45, or definitely low Good. That causes it to lose several
places in my rankings, now 38th best AtS episode, 16th best in season 5
(pushing TGIQ up to 15th).
--
Apteryx
Espen Schjønberg
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> ANGEL
> Season Five, Episode 21: "Power Play"
> (or "It's not about right, not about wrong. It's about... well, you
> know")
> Writer: David Fury
> Director: James A. Contner
I must say, my two least favorite writers/directors. I came to the
conclusion I just didn't like them.
So, Angel kills Drogyn.
But if the bad guy was right about how this war works- it is forever, it
is not about winning or losing, just about what you do while you're in
it- how come Angel can think he is able to win it by a coup?
Was the bad guy wrong?
I don't think he was. I just think Angel is. Totally, totally wrong:
ironically, the same kind of wrong which has brought down the USA: the
kind of wrong where you think the ends justify the means when you send
torturers etc.
It doesn't, cause it will only ruin you.
As this is a TV-series made by Americans, I don't expect the last
episode to realize this fault.
So, in the last episode the plan is for Angel to destroy W&H? But isn't
he just inside the LA-branch of a worldwide firm, being this dimensions
branch of something even bigger?
What was this thing about the "senior partners"? No, it was the "Black
Thorn". The senior partners 'instrument on earth'. Yeah. right.
> AOQ rating: Good
>
> [Season Five so far:
> 1) "Conviction" - Weak
> 2) "Just Rewards" - Good
> 3) "Unleashed" - Good
> 4) "Hell Bound" - Decent
> 5) "Life Of The Party" - Weak
> 6) "The Cautionary Tale Of Numero Cinco" - Decent
> 7) "Lineage" - Good
> 8) "Destiny" - Good
> 9) "Harm's Way" - Good
> 10) "Soul Purpose" - Good
> 11) "Damage" - Good
> 12) "You're Welcome" - Good
I have been very much with you this season. Of course, "You're welcome"
is better than good,"The Girl In Question" worse than awful. But thats
just details.
But this Power Play is only scary. In the wrong way. A show written by
fascists? Is Angels plan to be the enemy they had hoped he was? Cause
they must have hoped he was the kind of person willing to kill his
friends for a shot at backstabbing... thats the bad guys idea of fun. I
think so.
> 13) "Why We Fight" - Weak
> 14) "Smile Time" - Excellent
> 15) "A Hole In The World" - Decent
oh, and that one was harsh, Feigenbaum and all.
> 16) "Shells" - Good
> 17) "Underneath" - Good
> 18) "Origin" - Excellent
> 19) "Time Bomb" - Decent
> 20) "The Girl In Question" - Weak
> 21) "Power Play" - Good]
We will see how this ends.
This as my thoughts summing up what I felt at the time.
--
Espen
Elisi
> There's again the nagging feeling, though, that it kinda
> comes out of nowhere, with no evidence that the writers had any idea
> they were going this direction prior to "Time Bomb." My guess as to
> why is that, well, they had no idea that this would be the story prior
> to "Time Bomb," what with the cancellation and all. It shows.
Sorry, but you're wrong. The ending was planned pretty much from the
beginning of the season. The continuity and set-up is actually there,
not just mojoed into being at the last minute. They could probably
have done it _better_, but this is where the story was going right
from the start.
Ken from Chicago
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1173163621....@8g2000cwh.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> ANGEL
> Season Five, Episode 21: "Power Play"
> (or "It's not about right, not about wrong. It's about... well, you
> know")
> Writer: David Fury
> Director: James A. Contner
>
> "Power Play" is an episode that mostly works in theory and is hit and
> miss in execution. The hits generally outnumber the misses, but it
> conveys the same sense that the last few episodes of BTVS did, that
> there's a good story being told by a narrator with a speech impediment
> (just came up with that one. I'm kinda proud of it). I think that
> the meaning is conveyed well enough to entertain, and the problems are
> more of an annoyance than a crippling flaw. But let's go through both
> the good and less good:
You tell the story with the narrator you've got, not the one you wish you
had.
> Starting at the beginning, I'm generally not a fan of the "19 hours
> earlier..." trope. By which I mostly mean that I'm tired of it when it
Then avoid ALIAS like the plaque.
> serves no real narrative purpose. In this instance, however, even
> though it's pure gimmick, it serves a thematic purpose, if not a plot
> one. It gives the episode a bit of the "this is big stuff" feel it
> needs to color the lightness of Angel's first real-time appearance in
> his scene with Nina. With regard to the Angel/Nina relationship I
> feel somewhat cheated that the show has steadfastly refused to give us
> a chance to watch it develop either pre- or post-"Smile Time." I like
> both characters, and I like Angel getting a chance at a non-
> overwrought romance, but we never see any of it. I'm aware that ATS
> operates on the principle that gloom is more entertaining than joy,
> but this season has sometimes crossed the line past "no one is ever
> allowed to be happy for any sustained period of time... and if they do,
> it's off-screen." What we see in "Power Play" is good in the relaxed
Um, did Spike go suddenly invisible or inaudible? Because he is consistantly
the happiest character in S5 because he loves his walking happy meal world,
taking pleasure in the small things.
> affection of the bedroom scene, and Nina gets some great lines (see
> the QWQ section). Of course, Angel does the hero thing and sends her
> away, presumably off the show forever, which tantalizes the viewer
Just the opposite of what he did with Buffy.
> with a strong hint that he's not what he seems in the W&H scenes.
> Will get to the W&H plot in a second, but I'd like to make mention of
> the Spike/Illyria exchange as she finds a new partner in exploring
> humanity from the outside. He's actually almost a better foil for her
> than Wesley once we leave the Fred stuff behind (although Spike has a
> good line about that too). In an ideal world there'd be lots more
> show and they'd get lots of scenes together, and he would exclusively
> address her as "Blue" (I really like that for some reason).
Because Spike referred to Willow as "Red" and Fred is the "Willow" of ANGEL.
And Spike plays--and James Marsters acts--well with others, be it Illyria,
Fred, Angel, Gunn, Wes, Buffy, Xander, Anya, Dru, Eve and Clark.
> So, our hero's sold out, or so he wants us to believe. A plot which
> keeps the viewer wondering throughout, dangling bits of hope that he's
> playing a game (especially given that it's the second to last
> episode). Weaving in past events like Fred's death - Angel loved her
> (but then, so did Knox...) but won't give a direct answer about it.
> It's a mostly good premise. The complaints are taking up a lot more
> space as I'm writing this, so let me take a second to emphasize that I
> do appreciate a lot of this. I'm kinda swept up in it, in fact. But
> just a smidgeon of subtlety or restraint would have gone a long way
> here. He's practically waving signs around, giving some of the
> ludicriously over-the-top speechifying that he mocked Illyria for a
> couple episodes ago. If there's a drinking game built around clunky
> speeches, the "get to the top, be the best" rant is sure to get
Buffy'd win hands down. She's really bad at speechifying.
> everyone in the room trashed. The extent of this transformation seems
> too extreme to happen so quickly, a problem which applies regardless
> of whether it's sincere or a ploy. Perhaps equally damning, the
> individual scenes sometimes play out in boring ways. Even if one
> doesn't know where the overall plot is going, one knows that, say, the
> senator will propose a plan that involves sodomizing kittens and force-
> feeding their bones to minority children with cancer or whatever, Gunn
> will begin a righteous tirade against it, and Angel will cut him off
> and play along, much to his lawyer's worried annoyance. In that
> regard "Power Play" is the opposite of the best moments of the
> Buffyverse, since when the shows are at their best, one is wrong half
> the time when trying to chart the direction of a new scene.
What's with Gunn and the hoodies? Fine, he doesn't want to dress in
pin-striped suits like from early S5. Couldn't he at least dress in dress
shirts like he did in S4?
> Spike jumps in as the street-fighting hero, as he's wont to do when
> Angel falters or pretends to. And truth-teller guy from AHITW is
> involved here, rather abruptly "revealing" that Angel wanted to bring
> back Illyria. Yet again, I'm appreciating the scope of the plot
> (don't know where the obsession with betraying a friend comes in, but
> after all the harping on it, it turns out to have allegedly already
> happened weeks ago. I like that kind of thing), and the way the
> actors are behaving (Denisof is a standout, as always) but not so much
> the dialogue. Good to see that Lindsey's not forgotten, even if it's
> a bit of a drive-by role. The video games at the apartment seem like
> they should make for a funnier premise than actually emerges, although
> I like the line "it is a test, a task of some sort. You must collect
> those crystals. And the fruit." Sadly Illyria doesn't get to be part
She would have if she had shown more love for the Bandicoot.
> of the team, and Corporate Jayne gets to bust out his badass side for
> the first time in awhile. Their fight does a good job making her look
> competent while making him look all more deadly, and it's sickeningly
> one-sided. That's left on a bit of a suspense moment too... hope she's
> okay.
A man called Corp'rate Jaaaaaayne.
Every girl's crazy for a sharp-dressed man.
Yes, Hamilton's quite articulate and deadly--kinda like The Operative.
> And that's how we got to where we were, with Angel striding
> dramatically in to eat the victim and achieve his final destiny.
> Which in part involves a cocktail party (of DOOM!) with some of Season
> Five's schmoozers, helping retroactively give more significance to the
> episodes in which they debuted. Even though the payoff for now is
> just another ritual and villain group, there's no doubt that this is
WRONG!
It's a SECRET ritual and villain CULT.
> the big moment. After a very nice shot of our hero striding through
> the empty building, there's the ending non-confrontation which nicely
> transitions into Angel explaining the plot to us as well as to his
> employees. And it's steeped in the past. Bringing it all back to
> Cordelia feels very appropriate. "You're Welcome" and everything
> after it makes a new kind of sense as part of this bigger design of
> putting him on this path. And Angel being spurred to fight back by
> Fred's death as the catalyst... cool. It's a clever twist to the point
> where I really want it to work, and am forcibly trying to make it make
> total sense. There's again the nagging feeling, though, that it kinda
> comes out of nowhere, with no evidence that the writers had any idea
> they were going this direction prior to "Time Bomb." My guess as to
> why is that, well, they had no idea that this would be the story prior
> to "Time Bomb," what with the cancellation and all. It shows.
The problem is that Angel UNDERMINES the very fight he's trying to recruit
for by repeatedly claiming it makes no difference. It would have worked if
there would have been at least TEMPORARY gains, maybe severing W&H's link to
this dimension for a say a century or millennium.
Hmm, millennium and apocalypse ... there seems to be a link there waiting to
be ... revealed.
> As I hope the show realizes, there's an irony that I kinda like in the
> fact that it brings its own layer of moral issues. It's only by
> starting his plan to take down the Black Thorn that Dead Boy becomes
> what they want him to be - taking an active rather than a passive role
> in refusing help to people in need, handing out human blood, giving
> away babies to be sacrificed, and, of course, killing. He never did
> that stuff while he was complacent with the corruption. The grandiose
Fight fire with fire. A house divided cannot stand. Angel attempts to turn
evil on itself.
> nature of the plan itself is vintage Angel, a mix of Buffy-esque
> changing the rules with ATS's thing about endless fights and cruel
> Universes. Lindsey in a way helps inspire our hero to make it his
> game and send a message to the gods that've helped shape the past five
> seasons. And in the meantime, Hamilton... well, the first time I
> watched that part, I wasn't actually clear on whether he's seeing
> through the glamour or not. Okay. One hundred nine down...
That's the threat. Is Hamilton seeing the truth or not?
> Quotes Worth Quoting:
> - "Did you catch how I subtly included myself in your vacation
> package?... Too pushy, too needy, I never even said it. You should
> make love on the beach all by yourself"
> - "He and I are no longer having intercourse"
> - "You may not think you're as powerful as you were, Highness, but
> looking like Fred, for some of us... it's the most devastating power
> you have"
The wit and wisdom of the Peroxided One.
C'mon, Arb, FIREFLY--and SERENITY--awaits. In one episode and one month you
could complete the Whedon & Mutant Enemy trilogy. No longer would it nag at
you, nag at you, nag at you.
-- Ken from Chicago
P.S. After a suitable "break" after ATS, including a resumption of this ...
reallife ... thing.
Elisi
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
> ANGEL
> Season Five, Episode 21: "Power Play"
> (or "It's not about right, not about wrong. It's about... well, you
> know")
> Starting at the beginning, I'm generally not a fan of the "19 hours
> earlier..." trope. By which I mostly mean that I'm tired of it when it
> serves no real narrative purpose. In this instance, however, even
> though it's pure gimmick, it serves a thematic purpose, if not a plot
> one. It gives the episode a bit of the "this is big stuff" feel it
> needs to color the lightness of Angel's first real-time appearance in
> his scene with Nina.
Also they of course dangle the 'he had sex and went evil' hing in
front of our noses... but we're all wise to that game by now.
> With regard to the Angel/Nina relationship I
> feel somewhat cheated that the show has steadfastly refused to give us
> a chance to watch it develop either pre- or post-"Smile Time." I like
> both characters, and I like Angel getting a chance at a non-
> overwrought romance, but we never see any of it.
Now _if_ there'd been a season 6 who knows...
> I'd like to make mention of
> the Spike/Illyria exchange as she finds a new partner in exploring
> humanity from the outside. He's actually almost a better foil for her
> than Wesley once we leave the Fred stuff behind (although Spike has a
> good line about that too). In an ideal world there'd be lots more
> show and they'd get lots of scenes together, and he would exclusively
> address her as "Blue" (I really like that for some reason).
Spillyria is a good ship with many followers. :)
And you completely failed to mention Spike's later comment "There was
that one time..." re. him and Angel being 'intimate' - I think at
least half of fandom spontaneously combusted in happiness. Subtext -
no matter how rich - is no substitute for actual text. Even if it was
just the once. :)
> He's practically waving signs around, giving some of the
> ludicriously over-the-top speechifying that he mocked Illyria for a
> couple episodes ago. If there's a drinking game built around clunky
> speeches, the "get to the top, be the best" rant is sure to get
> everyone in the room trashed.
Ah, but here's the thing - every word in that speech is true. In S2 he
was the ant, trying to kill a giant, and he failed miserably. Re-read
this, knowing what he was up to:
ANGEL: None of it makes a difference. I wish it did, but, you know, an
ant with the best intentions or the most diabolical schemes is just
exactly an ant. There is one thing in this business, in this
apocalypse that we call a world that matters: Power. Power tips the
scale, power sets the course, and until I have real power, global
power, I have nothing. I accomplish nothing.
WESLEY: And how you get this power...
ANGEL: Isn't pretty. Isn't fun. You think it's Wolfram & Hart getting
to me here, and maybe you're right, because they've shown us what
power is. From day one, they've been calling the shots, and all we've
done is get shot at. I have a chance to change that.
It's not about right, it's not about wrong... it's about power. Don't
play their game, get them to play yours.
ANGEL: Let them fight the good fight. - Someone has to fight the war.
'Redefinition'
> Yet again, I'm appreciating the scope of the plot
> (don't know where the obsession with betraying a friend comes in, but
> after all the harping on it, it turns out to have allegedly already
> happened weeks ago. I like that kind of thing), and the way the
> actors are behaving (Denisof is a standout, as always)
What struck me this time was Spike. They're all of them upset and
angry of course (and Wesley does indeed stand out - and we finally see
how his restored memories _help_ him deal with a situation) - but
Spike is _hurt_. He stayed in LA because of Angel - because he
believed in Angel's fight. For him the betrayal is personal. At the
final confrontation (when they all barge in brandishing weapons) Spike
is the one who punches Angel. And I suddenly realised that it was
almost an exact replay of 'School Hard':
Spike: You think you can fool *me*?! You were my sire, man! You were
my... Yoda!
Angel: Things change.
Spike: Not us! Not demons! Man, I can't believe this!
Only this time the conversation would have gone like this:
Spike: How dare fool *me*?! You were my sire, man! You were my...
Yoda!
Angel: Things change.
Spike: Not us! Not champions! Man, I can't believe this!
But of course Angel _hasn't_ changed - and Spike is the first to raise
his hand.
> Which in part involves a cocktail party (of DOOM!) with some of Season
> Five's schmoozers, helping retroactively give more significance to the
> episodes in which they debuted.
Stealth-arc!
> Even though the payoff for now is
> just another ritual and villain group,
THE group.
> Bringing it all back to
> Cordelia feels very appropriate. "You're Welcome" and everything
> after it makes a new kind of sense as part of this bigger design of
> putting him on this path.
Ah, but you can see it long before - thematically the season hangs
together *beautifully*! I'll get back to that.
> As I hope the show realizes, there's an irony that I kinda like in the
> fact that it brings its own layer of moral issues. It's only by
> starting his plan to take down the Black Thorn that Dead Boy becomes
> what they want him to be - taking an active rather than a passive role
> in refusing help to people in need, handing out human blood, giving
> away babies to be sacrificed, and, of course, killing.
This is where 'Why We Fight' is such a thing of beauty. I remembered
it as a bit dull, but it seriously knocked me out, because the
foreshadowing it scary.
LAWSON: We wouldn't do that. You don't win a war by doing whatever it
takes. You win by doing what's right.
Oh but Angel doesn't, does he? He turns Lawson, as good and noble a
young soldier as ever there was, for the sake of the mission. Just
like he will go on to kill Drogyn, bonafide hero. (I'll get back to
'Why We Fight'.)
> He never did
> that stuff while he was complacent with the corruption. The grandiose
> nature of the plan itself is vintage Angel, a mix of Buffy-esque
> changing the rules with ATS's thing about endless fights and cruel
> Universes. Lindsey in a way helps inspire our hero to make it his
> game and send a message to the gods that've helped shape the past five
> seasons.
I know that a lot of people will probably complain about Angel's plan.
They'll say it's stupid and suicidal. That he's forgotten about
helping the people and is going for all-out mayhem instead, and why?
It's all about choice. Angel has the choice to stay (playing the SP's
game, being digested by the beast) - or to go. Except he can't leave,
can he?
GUNN: Any thought about what would happen to us if we tried to say bye-
bye? The ramifications, I mean. You think the senior partners are just
gonna let us breeze on out the front door?
FRED: You're saying we're trapped here?
Going back to running a detective agency and helping girls in alleys
quite simply isn't an option anymore. If he leaves, he ends up dead.
So... he'll make sure to create maximum damage as he goes. He knows he
can't kill the SP - but...
ANGEL: Killing them [his friends] is not going to change the past.
LAWSON: But it'll hurt you. Maybe that's enough.
WWF
ANGEL: The senior partners may be eternal, but we can make their
existence painful.
Power Play
Yes it's a suicide mission, but that doesn't mean that Angel's
suicidal. Let's go back to the beginning of the season:
ANGEL: We're gonna change things. We came to Wolfram and Hart because
it's a powerful weapon, and we'll figure out how to wield it.
WESLEY: Or kill ourselves with it.
Angel figured out how to wield the weapon - and it will most likely
kill them all in the process. But it's a price he's willing to pay. As
I said, he has a choice: To wield the weapon, or not. Which again ties
in with that speech of his from 'Deep Down':
ANGEL: But that's why there's us. Champions. It doesn't matter where
we come from, what we've done or suffered, or even if we make a
difference. We live as though the world was what it should be, to show
it what it can be.
His scheme is all about 'showing the world what it can be'. Refusing
to accept the world as it is.
You must now go read the_royal_anna's thoughts on this ep:
http://the-royal-anna.livejournal.com/30543.html
My favourite bit probably being this:
"It's a bleak and joyless world where heroes do not fight because they
have hope, but fight because fighting is their only manifestation of
hope. But here they agree to fight because as long as they still have
a choice to make, they will make a choice. My dear boys, my sweet
Illyria, all of them so much lost, so much found. And what I always
loved best about the Buffyverse was that it wasn't always about
getting out of the hole. Sometimes you can't get out of the hole, and
you can't sit around waiting until you do. You have to make a
difference where you are, as you are. That's the point."
There's a lot of 'Serenity' in this scheme... (spoilers for the
movie):
ZNY: Naq V qb abg ubyq gb gung. Fb ab zber ehaavat. V nvz gb
zvforunir. Furcureq Obbx hfrq gb gryy zr: "Vs lbh pna'g qb fbzrguvat
fzneg... qb fbzrguvat evtug."
Jr xabj gung ng gur raq bs Freravgl Gur Nyyvnapr jnf fgvyy va cbjre -
gung abguvat unq punatrq shaqnzragnyyl. Ohg qbrf abg zrna gung jung
bhe Ovt Qnza Urebrf qvq jnf sbe abguvat.
Elisi
> Not sure about that. I certainly can't see Cordelia approving of his killing
> Drogyn.
Cordy had nothing to do with that - it was the Powers who gave him the
vision.
> And it's hard to avoid the conclusion that if he is prepared to
> embrace such an extreme solution, he has been at least a little corrupted by
> his time in W&H, even though not turned by them. It's not the first time he
> has done something like that, as we saw in WWF. But he wouldn't have done it
> a year ago - certainly not two years ago.
Really?
Holland: "Angel - please. - People are going to die."
Angel: "And yet, somehow, I just can't seem to care."
'Reunion'
The difference being that back then he did it purely out of spite -
now he has a reason. Yes it's very much a case of 'the ends justifying
the means', but I think that Angel *did* care about Drogyn. That's the
difference.
Rowan Hawthorn
No, he didn't fail to mention it (did you read the "Quotes Worth
Quoting" part of the review?) and I doubt that Spangel 'shippers make up
that high a percentage of the 'verse fandom. Must be all that euphoria
making things foggy...
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Elisi
Darn it, somehow must have skipped past that. *hits self over head*
> and I doubt that Spangel 'shippers make up
> that high a percentage of the 'verse fandom. Must be all that euphoria
> making things foggy...
Not just the S/A shippers thinking it was fun! :)
Don Sample
Espen Schjønberg <ess...@excite.com> wrote:
> On 06.03.2007 07:47, Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > threads.
> >
> >
> > ANGEL
> > Season Five, Episode 21: "Power Play"
> > (or "It's not about right, not about wrong. It's about... well, you
> > know")
> > Writer: David Fury
> > Director: James A. Contner
>
> I must say, my two least favorite writers/directors. I came to the
> conclusion I just didn't like them.
>
> So, Angel kills Drogyn.
>
> But if the bad guy was right about how this war works- it is forever, it
> is not about winning or losing, just about what you do while you're in
> it- how come Angel can think he is able to win it by a coup?
And what does Angel accomplish by being admitted into the Black Thorn
group? He gets a list of names of bad guys. But is there anyone on that
list that he didn't already *know* was a bad guy?
He'd have learned just as much by taking a look at the top tier of
Wolfram and Hart's client list.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
One Bit Shy
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1173192248.2...@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
That was 3 years ago - before his epiphany. And I think he had pretty much
the same reason - losing Darla as opposed to Fred and his rage against the
machine. The setup now is largely a replay of the S2 situation generally.
But this time more smartly played and - maybe - a clearer head. (Also,
Illyria is considerably more helpful than vamped Darla. Though Angel wanted
to kill Illyria too.)
In essence, Angel wants to do it right this time. Smarter. Cleaner
motivations. More effective. But it's still the same place. He abandons
the principals of Epiphany and To Shanshu in L.A. rather than just leave W&H
and continue the good fight. And most importantly, he's willing to
sacrifice those around him - that he cares about. More than Drogyn.
(Though even Drogyn is presented as far more connected to Angel than anybody
in the locked room with Holland.) Even in his S2 flirtation with his dark
side he resisted that - pushing them away rather than risk them instead.
OBS
Apteryx
>
>> Not sure about that. I certainly can't see Cordelia approving of his
>> killing
>> Drogyn.
>
> Cordy had nothing to do with that - it was the Powers who gave him the
> vision.
Well, he does make the point that Cordlia started the process by
transferring to him the power to receive the Powers visions. But I am merely
not sharing AOQ's feeling of special appropriateness in the fact that it
begins with Cordelia, given that I doubt Cordelia would have approved of the
killing of the helpless Drogyn.
>> And it's hard to avoid the conclusion that if he is prepared to
>> embrace such an extreme solution, he has been at least a little corrupted
>> by
>> his time in W&H, even though not turned by them. It's not the first time
>> he
>> has done something like that, as we saw in WWF. But he wouldn't have done
>> it
>> a year ago - certainly not two years ago.
>
> Really?
>
> Holland: "Angel - please. - People are going to die."
> Angel: "And yet, somehow, I just can't seem to care."
> 'Reunion'
>
> The difference being that back then he did it purely out of spite -
> now he has a reason. Yes it's very much a case of 'the ends justifying
> the means', but I think that Angel *did* care about Drogyn. That's the
> difference.
There are other differences. Holland was not a friend, he was evil, and
Angel didn't kill him. But he did share with Drogyn the being helpless (and
hopeless) bit, and for that reason I don't think that the Angel of a little
before Reunion or a little after it would have left him to be killed.
--
Apteryx
William George Ferguson
wrote:
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>
>
>ANGEL
>Season Five, Episode 21: "Power Play"
>(or "It's not about right, not about wrong. It's about... well, you
>know")
>Writer: David Fury
>Director: James A. Contner
My lowest rated Angel episode of the 5 years.
Here's what happens in this episode. Angel takes stock and realizes "We
can't win. We can't draw. We can't even... Oh wait, yes we can!" He
knows that he and his group can't defeat the senior partners, so he picks
some arbitrary, hitherto unheard of, secret cabel, sets out to take this
cabel down and then declare victory. To quote Nero Wolfe on the subject,
Pfui.
There is nothing in this episode worth individual comment.
--
"Oh Buffy, you really do need to have
every square inch of your ass kicked."
- Willow Rosenberg
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
> ANGEL
> Season Five, Episode 21: "Power Play"
> (or "It's not about right, not about wrong. It's about... well, you
> know")
> Writer: David Fury
> Director: James A. Contner
.
> With regard to the Angel/Nina relationship I
> feel somewhat cheated that the show has steadfastly refused to give us
> a chance to watch it develop either pre- or post-"Smile Time." I like
> both characters, and I like Angel getting a chance at a non-
> overwrought romance, but we never see any of it. I'm aware that ATS
> operates on the principle that gloom is more entertaining than joy,
> but this season has sometimes crossed the line past "no one is ever
> allowed to be happy for any sustained period of time... and if they do,
> it's off-screen."
It's not clear how much time Angel and Nina have had together off-screen.
They're more relaxed and comfortable together than in Smile Time (if
comparisons between puppet and non-puppet situations are valid), making it
seem like they've been dating for a while. But some of the dialogue,
especially Nina's quip later, "You sleep with a guy and he sends your
entire family out of the country," also makes it sound like this was the
first time they actually slept together. I have to suspect that they've
been casually dating but taking things slow, until the night before "19
hours earlier," when Angel finally decided to take the plunge because he
knew this could be his last chance. Or at least his last chance to do it
before he performed some of the most morally dubious parts of his plan.
(And here's the answer to my question after Life of the Party, will Angel
ever get it on with a woman who weighs more than 100 pounds?)
> So, our hero's sold out, or so he wants us to believe. A plot which
> keeps the viewer wondering throughout, dangling bits of hope that he's
> playing a game
I really liked one part of Angel's first long speech:
"There is one thing in this business, in this apocalypse that we call a
world that matters: Power. Power tips the scale, power sets the course,
and until I have real power, global power, I have nothing. I accomplish
nothing."
The reason this appeals to me is that Angel is simultaneously acting like
he's on the road to corruption, and plainly laying out his real plan. He
hopes to join the power elite and then use his position there to wipe said
elite out, accomplishing a major victory against evil. It's interesting
to compare to Eve's "catch" from Conviction, when she said that if Angel
wants to use W&H for good, then he'll have to keep it afloat as a
business, which means keeping at least some of its clients happy. Angel
hopes to get around this by making his most powerful clients happy for a
while, just long enough to get himself in a good position to kill them
all. Which, when you think about it, is actually a fairly obvious
strategem. Why didn't the Senior Partners think of that possibility from
the outset? Were they that confident that Angel would be genuinely
corrupted? Can he still be corrupted even as he puts his plan into
effect?
Speaking of which, how certain are we that he *hasn't* been corrupted?
Wouldn't it be funny if we later found out that some or all of his story
in the final scene was a lie....
The Black Thorn has an unfortunate air of last-minute contrivance that
never quite goes away for me. It's a little too convenient that the
Senior Partners' instruments on earth are all located in LA and neatly
gathered together in this little cabal (naq gung gurve ahzoref
pbairavragyl zngpu gubfr bs Natry'f perj). But given the awkward spot ME
was put in by the loathsome vermin at the WB, I can easily forgive hasty
contrivances like this. Likewise with the sudden advent of Angel's plan,
as you note later in your review: it feels like a last-minute addition
from nowhere, a forgiveable flaw under the circumstances, but still a
flaw.
(I've heard a lot of conflicting stories about ME's plans for season 6.
Maybe we can discuss this during the NFA thread?)
So far they haven't given us a definite answer about what, exactly, wiping
out the Black Thorn will accomplish. (I'm not sure if this is a
deliberate ambiguity or just another side effect of rushing the setup for
the finale.) Angel doesn't rule out the possibility that this will set
back the Apocalypse, but he isn't banking on it either. "We can't bring
down the Senior Partners, but for one bright, shining moment, we can show
them that they don't own us. You need to decide for yourselves if that's
worth dying for." Would this be a tragic but glorious reaffirmation of
what's best in humanity in the face of evil? Or would this suicide mission
just be a way of salving humanity's pride (or Angel's?) as it continues
sliding toward inevitable defeat? Or is that another of my false
dichotomies?
> those crystals. And the fruit." Sadly Illyria doesn't get to be part
> of the team, and Corporate Jayne gets to bust out his badass side for
> the first time in awhile. Their fight does a good job making her look
> competent while making him look all more deadly, and it's sickeningly
> one-sided. That's left on a bit of a suspense moment too... hope she's
> okay.
If Hamilton took Illyria down so easily, how can *Angel* beat him? Even
in her weakened state Illyria is at least as powerful as the vampires, as
we see during Spike and Illyria's demon hunt.
> And that's how we got to where we were, with Angel striding
> dramatically in to eat the victim and achieve his final destiny.
> Which in part involves a cocktail party (of DOOM!) with some of Season
> Five's schmoozers, helping retroactively give more significance to the
> episodes in which they debuted.
Similarly Drogyn's reappearance adds more significance to the character,
moving him beyond being just a plot device for AHITW. Meanwhile longtime
recurring character Lindsey just gets a brief appearance, hardly more than
a reminder of his existence. Maybe he'll get a little more in the finale.
And hopefully some other familiar faces will appear....
> AOQ rating: Good
Good for me too.
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
Michael Ikeda
news:12us0e2...@corp.supernews.com:
> In alt.tv.angel Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
>> review threads.
>
>> ANGEL
>> Season Five, Episode 21: "Power Play"
>> (or "It's not about right, not about wrong. It's about...
>> well, you know")
>> Writer: David Fury
>> Director: James A. Contner
>
>
> The Black Thorn has an unfortunate air of last-minute
> contrivance that never quite goes away for me. It's a little
> too convenient that the Senior Partners' instruments on earth
> are all located in LA and neatly gathered together in this
> little cabal (naq gung gurve ahzoref pbairavragyl zngpu gubfr bs
> Natry'f perj). But given the awkward spot ME was put in by the
> loathsome vermin at the WB, I can easily forgive hasty
> contrivances like this. Likewise with the sudden advent of
> Angel's plan, as you note later in your review: it feels like a
> last-minute addition from nowhere, a forgiveable flaw under the
> circumstances, but still a flaw.
>
I seem to recall Joss & Co saying that the Season 5 plotline was
essentially the same as it would have been if the show had been
renewed.
(With the exception of one event that happens in the finale that is
an important detail but would have required only minimal
rewriting.)
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
drifter
> In alt.tv.angel Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>> threads.
>
>> ANGEL
>> Season Five, Episode 21: "Power Play"
>> (or "It's not about right, not about wrong. It's about... well, you
>> know")
/snippety-doo-dah/
> (I've heard a lot of conflicting stories about ME's plans for season
> 6. Maybe we can discuss this during the NFA thread?)
So, this month the comic book version of Season 8 of Buffy should be
coming out. I wonder if an Angel Season 6 comic is lurking in the back
of the skull of Joss? (The awkwardness of the ending of that sentence
brought to you by the weirdness of the look of the words "Joss's skull."
4 s's - esses?- in a row is just wrong.)
--
Kel
"Don't talk unless you can improve the silence."
Mel
One Bit Shy wrote:
>
> But this is also one of the characteristics of himself that Angel has fought
> against throughout the series run. Right now, the loudest message I hear
> coming from Angel is that he's given up. I'm not happy with that. I'm not
> happy with that being the culmination of a whole season churning within W&H.
> I'm left with a bit of a sour taste in my mouth.
>
>
I don't view it so much as Angel giving up, but rather doing what he
wanted to do all along but couldn't. The only reason he took the deal in
the first place was to save Connor. Now that Connor has his memories
back, there's no longer a sword hanging over Angel's head to keep him in
line. He's been fighting against W&H since early S1, tried his best to
destroy them in S2, but failed. Now, he's got a real shot at doing
serious damage, and while the SP's may come after him and those who
fight with him, Connor is, in his mind, safe. Like Connor told Angel at
the end of "Origin," Vail (and the SPs) can't show him anything he
hasn't already seen.
As a side note, I missed this episode when it first aired because of a
VCR snafu (ok, I accidentally recorded the wrong channel - argh!)
Anyway, reading the transcript and comments about what happened really
didn't do it justice.
Mel
Mel
>
> There's a lot of 'Serenity' in this scheme... (spoilers for the
> movie):
>
> ZNY: Naq V qb abg ubyq gb gung. Fb ab zber ehaavat. V nvz gb
> zvforunir. Furcureq Obbx hfrq gb gryy zr: "Vs lbh pna'g qb fbzrguvat
> fzneg... qb fbzrguvat evtug."
Um, Jayne said that latter bit.
Mel
One Bit Shy
news:MKCdneAWYfM5t3PY...@uci.net...
>
>
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>
>>
>> But this is also one of the characteristics of himself that Angel has
>> fought against throughout the series run. Right now, the loudest message
>> I hear coming from Angel is that he's given up. I'm not happy with that.
>> I'm not happy with that being the culmination of a whole season churning
>> within W&H. I'm left with a bit of a sour taste in my mouth.
>>
>>
>
> I don't view it so much as Angel giving up, but rather doing what he
> wanted to do all along but couldn't. The only reason he took the deal in
> the first place was to save Connor. Now that Connor has his memories back,
> there's no longer a sword hanging over Angel's head to keep him in line.
> He's been fighting against W&H since early S1, tried his best to destroy
> them in S2, but failed. Now, he's got a real shot at doing serious damage,
> and while the SP's may come after him and those who fight with him, Connor
> is, in his mind, safe. Like Connor told Angel at the end of "Origin," Vail
> (and the SPs) can't show him anything he hasn't already seen.
I believe it's what a part of him has wanted to do all along. And I accept
that it is a genuine choice for the series in the sense that it really is
one of the directions Angel could choose at this point.
It's really very similar to S2. The specific state of mind is a little
dfferent - Angel had worked himself into that strange zone of not Angel but
not Angelus either - just cold determination. But that was merely
technique. It was a calculated plan then as it is today. The biggest
difference is this time he's taking others with him. S2 even included the
kill 'em all element of going after the main earthly players he knew about.
(Though Darla let him down by letting Lilah and Lindsey live for her own
purposes.)
Angel definitely has that urge. But it's an urge that has manifested itself
in other contexts as well. Acathla as Angelus and Are You Now or Have You
Ever Been as pre-Buffy Angel are prime examples. This has been shown
repeatedly to be a destructive (not in a good sense) aspect of Angel that he
has needed to put a check on. The inside information and opportunity that
is there for Angel now is a rationalization for this choice, not a truly
compelling reason IMO. I don't believe for a moment that he really has no
other option besides staying trapped in W&H. The only way this story really
makes sense to me is for him to be using that notion as an excuse to do what
he yearns to do inside. Give in to that kill 'em all impulse and let the
fighting machine that he is run free.
It's not an awful story concept. There's a kind of power in succumbing to
that urge at this point in his story - which becomes the series end. (If
there was going to be a S6 I might actually be more OK with it since I
suspect that such a story would include regret and pulling away from his
choice - albeit after whatever terrible consequences it triggered.) But I
don't like it. I especially don't like that he draws the rest of his team
into it - effectively confirming his long fear that he will destroy
everybody that sticks with him.
But I don't like it for Angel either - or the series. I don't like it
because it seems to let his internal - and eternal - struggle for redemption
that we've watched since he met Buffy just wither as he reaches for the big
bang easy out.
Now mind you, this is my impression based on Angel's announced plan. The
final episode could still modify my feelings in some fashion.
OBS
Elisi
> "Elisi" <elis...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Ah, but here's the rub - he _can't_ leave W&H and continue the good
fight. He's stuck. He signed a contract and we all know how binding
those contracts are. W&H have _allowed_ him to stay alive these last
few years, because they hope he'll come down on their side in the
apocalypse ("We don't want him dead, we want him dark"). If he walks
out of W&H, my guess is that they'll figure that he's *definitely* not
on their side. Also - now there's Spike. They'd get rid of Angel and
start work on the new boy.
If he stays, but continues how he has so far, he's playing for the
opposition - saving people, yes, but also keeping enough of his evil
clients happy to keep the place open (remember Eve explaining 'the
catch'?). He's done that for almost a year and it's eating him up!
The PTB gave him a vision, but it wasn't about a girl in an alley - it
was about the architects of the apocalypse. Showing how he could use
W&H as a weapon. He can wield the weapon or not... but those are his
only choices. And if he waits, he chooses by default. He has power now
- actual, real power - and he can't worry about 'the small stuff'
anymore. This is a sad fact. He can make a difference, even if it's
just for a moment, or he can go back to being an ant. And get trodden
on.
See it remind me of LoTR - after the battle at Minas Tirith, when they
know that Frodo and Sam might still be alive. And they decide to take
as big an army as they can scrape together and march towards Mordor.
They know that Sauron's army is huge, and that they'll probably all
die. That no one might ever know about their last stand, that it'll in
all likelyhood make very little difference. But - as Gandalf says -
Sauron'll want to crush them, like a man grasping a wasp. Hopefully
they'll be able to sting him before he kills them. (I really should go
look up the exact quote, but I don't have the time.) It all comes back
to this speech:
ANGEL: But that's why there's us. Champions. It doesn't matter where
we come from, what we've done or suffered, or even if we make a
difference. We live as though the world was what it should be, to show
it what it can be.
'Deep Down'
> And most importantly, he's willing to
> sacrifice those around him - that he cares about. More than Drogyn.
> (Though even Drogyn is presented as far more connected to Angel than anybody
> in the locked room with Holland.) Even in his S2 flirtation with his dark
> side he resisted that - pushing them away rather than risk them instead.
Yes, but unlike before he's asking them to _help_. It really is the
most beautiful contrast with 'Home' and Angel's 'executive decision'.
Heck Buffy does almost exactly the same in 'Chosen'. Which reminds me
of another quote:
ANYA: And yet, here's the thing. When it's something that really
matters, they fight. I mean, they're lame morons for fighting, but
they do. They never... never quit. So I guess I will keep fighting,
too.
Angel's choice is to fight - or to stay. Of course he chooses to
fight. Even if it kills him.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> fight. He's stuck. He signed a contract and we all know how binding
> those contracts are. W&H have _allowed_ him to stay alive these last
actually we dont know
wrh failed on their half with cordy and possibly connor
and we dont have detailed conditions of employment or disemployment
> See it remind me of LoTR - after the battle at Minas Tirith, when they
> know that Frodo and Sam might still be alive. And they decide to take
> as big an army as they can scrape together and march towards Mordor.
> They know that Sauron's army is huge, and that they'll probably all
its different
the attack on the morannon was a military feint
gandalf and strider wanted saurons attention away from the tarkil in cirith ungol
or in his brooding from concentrating on gorgoroth
hence a very flashy and attention seeking march away from minas morgul
and through ithilien to the black gate
> Angel's choice is to fight - or to stay. Of course he chooses to
> fight. Even if it kills him.
theres a change in intent from redefinition
then he was going to hell to do battle with wrh and try to destroy them
he was defeated when it was pointed out wrh are merely parasites not causes
this time his plan is not to destroy wrh but to queer their food a bit
meow arf meow - they are performing horrible experiments in space
major grubert is watching you - beware the bakalite
impeach the bastard - the airtight garage has you neo
cry...@panix.com
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>> affection of the bedroom scene, and Nina gets some great lines (see
>> the QWQ section). Of course, Angel does the hero thing and sends her
>> away, presumably off the show forever, which tantalizes the viewer
> Just the opposite of what he did with Buffy.
To set up the spinoff, "Nina: An American Werewolf In Love"
--
-Crystal
Exp315
> Ah, but here's the rub - he _can't_ leave W&H and continue the good
> fight. He's stuck. He signed a contract and we all know how binding
> those contracts are. W&H have _allowed_ him to stay alive these last
> few years, because they hope he'll come down on their side in the
> apocalypse ("We don't want him dead, we want him dark"). If he walks
> out of W&H, my guess is that they'll figure that he's *definitely* not
> on their side. Also - now there's Spike. They'd get rid of Angel and
> start work on the new boy.
Interesting point - we never do find out what was in Angel's contract
with W&H, aside from the Connor memory-wipe being part of it. It
certainly didn't look like Angel read the contract carefully, and you
know how tricky those demon contracts can be - there's always a catch.
Stephen Tempest
<mair_...@yahoo.com> writes:
>its different
>the attack on the morannon was a military feint
>gandalf and strider wanted saurons attention away from the tarkil in cirith ungol
>or in his brooding from concentrating on gorgoroth
>
>hence a very flashy and attention seeking march away from minas morgul
>and through ithilien to the black gate
I don't think it's different at all, except in the petty details.
Gandalf's plan involved deceit, fooling Sauron that Aragorn had
claimed the Ring for himself to distract him from Frodo; but Angel's
plan also involved deceit, fooling the Senior Partners that he'd gone
over to their side to distract them from his plan to destroy the Black
Thorn.
Both groups knew that a final, complete victory over their opponents
was impossible:
ANGEL: Power endures. We can't bring down the senior partners, but for
one bright, shining moment, we can show them that they don't own us.
GANDALF: Other evils there are that may come; for Sauron is himself
but a servant or emissary. Yet it is not our part to master all the
tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those
years wherein we are set.
...and they knew they were unlikely to survive the battle, even if
they won:
ANGEL: We do this, the senior partners will rain their full wrath.
They'll make an example of us. I'm talking full-on hell, not the basic
fire-and-brimstone kind we're used to.
GUNN: We know the drill.
ANGEL :No, you don't. 10-to-1, we're gone when the smoke clears. They
will do everything in their power to destroy us.
GANDALF: We must walk open-eyed into that trap, with courage, but
small hope for ourselves. For, my lords, it may well prove that we
ourselves shall perish utterly in a black battle far from the living
lands; so that even if Barad-dűr be thrown down, we shall not live to
see a new age.
Both plans were volunteer-only
ANGEL: You need to decide for yourselves if that's worth dying for. I
can't order you to do this. I can't do it without you. So we'll vote.
As a team.
ARAGORN: We come now to the very brink, where hope and despair are
akin. To waver is to fall. Let none now reject the counsels of Gandalf
[...] nonetheless I do not yet claim to command any man. Let others
chose as they will.
Gandalf's plan worked. Did Angel's?
Stephen
--
Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising
I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing.
To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking:
Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!
Arbitrar Of Quality
> In article <esjelv$u9...@readme.uio.no>,
> Espen Schjønberg <ess...@excite.com> wrote:
>
> > > Writer: David Fury
> > > Director: James A. Contner
>
> > I must say, my two least favorite writers/directors. I came to the
> > conclusion I just didn't like them.
First time I've heard any particularly negative feelings toward
James. David's stuff tends to hit and miss for me but I'm very fond
of the hits... and don't forget that he wrote and directed "You're
Welcome."
> > But if the bad guy was right about how this war works- it is forever, it
> > is not about winning or losing, just about what you do while you're in
> > it- how come Angel can think he is able to win it by a coup?
It's not about winning. The idea isn't to get rid of the Senior
Partners, but to send a message to them. The way the show tells it,
the SP have manipulated and influenced the human world confident in
the knowledge that they're eternal and there'll never be any
consequences. The plan proposed in "Power Play" is about proving that
mortals can hurt them, making the SP realize that people aren't
impotent playthings (or socks). So in effect, Team Angel are
proposing to risk themselves on behalf of freeing the world from
Senior Partners and higher powers. What makes the difference is the
simple fact that they're willing to fight for it. It's grandiose and
definitely subject to question as a strategy, but it's totally the
kind of thing I'd expect Angel to try.
> And what does Angel accomplish by being admitted into the Black Thorn
> group? He gets a list of names of bad guys. But is there anyone on that
> list that he didn't already *know* was a bad guy?
>
> He'd have learned just as much by taking a look at the top tier of
> Wolfram and Hart's client list.
Not really. The Black Thorn are a specific and select group, whereas
W&H's whole clientele is pretty much evil. He needed a target,
something managable for his little team to take ot in quick
succession.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1173163621....@8g2000cwh.googlegroups.com...
>
> > miss in execution. The hits generally outnumber the misses, but it
> > conveys the same sense that the last few episodes of BTVS did, that
> > there's a good story being told by a narrator with a speech impediment
> > (just came up with that one. I'm kinda proud of it). I think that
> > the meaning is conveyed well enough to entertain, and the problems are
> > more of an annoyance than a crippling flaw. But let's go through both
> > the good and less good:
>
> You tell the story with the narrator you've got, not the one you wish you
> had.
Heh.
> The problem is that Angel UNDERMINES the very fight he's trying to recruit
> for by repeatedly claiming it makes no difference. It would have worked if
> there would have been at least TEMPORARY gains, maybe severing W&H's link to
> this dimension for a say a century or millennium.
But if it nothing you do matters, all that matters is what you do.
That's ATS's philosophy.
> C'mon, Arb, FIREFLY--and SERENITY--awaits. In one episode and one month you
> could complete the Whedon & Mutant Enemy trilogy. No longer would it nag at
> you, nag at you, nag at you.
Again, no point in doing first-reaction reviews given that I've seen
them, but is anyone interested in going through the _Firefly_ 'verse
as a group, episode by episode? It could be a fun NG activity or
something.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
Those ME staffers are a skilled bunch. They can make a planned-out
story *look* like something they just slapped together!
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> And you completely failed to mention Spike's later comment "There was
> that one time..." re. him and Angel being 'intimate' - I think at
> least half of fandom spontaneously combusted in happiness. Subtext -
> no matter how rich - is no substitute for actual text. Even if it was
> just the once. :)
Well, you know that I did mention it, and what's nice is that it does
indeed move the subtext into text, but manages to keep it vague enough
that it can easily be spun away by people who aren't interested in
thinking about the relationship going in that direction.
> What struck me this time was Spike. They're all of them upset and
> angry of course (and Wesley does indeed stand out - and we finally see
> how his restored memories _help_ him deal with a situation) - but
> Spike is _hurt_. He stayed in LA because of Angel - because he
> believed in Angel's fight. For him the betrayal is personal. At the
> final confrontation (when they all barge in brandishing weapons) Spike
> is the one who punches Angel. And I suddenly realised that it was
> almost an exact replay of 'School Hard':
>
> Spike: You think you can fool *me*?! You were my sire, man! You were
> my... Yoda!
> Angel: Things change.
> Spike: Not us! Not demons! Man, I can't believe this!
>
> But of course Angel _hasn't_ changed - and Spike is the first to raise
> his hand.
I must admit that I haven't been paying the particular attention to
Spike's part in recent episodes that maybe it deserves. He's one of
an ensemble, so maybe it takes someone for whom he's their absolute
favorite character to properly appreciate this stuff at first glance.
Something to keep an eye on next time...
> Yes it's a suicide mission, but that doesn't mean that Angel's
> suicidal. Let's go back to the beginning of the season:
>
> ANGEL: We're gonna change things. We came to Wolfram and Hart because
> it's a powerful weapon, and we'll figure out how to wield it.
> WESLEY: Or kill ourselves with it.
>
> Angel figured out how to wield the weapon - and it will most likely
> kill them all in the process. But it's a price he's willing to pay. As
> I said, he has a choice: To wield the weapon, or not. Which again ties
> in with that speech of his from 'Deep Down':
>
> ANGEL: But that's why there's us. Champions. It doesn't matter where
> we come from, what we've done or suffered, or even if we make a
> difference. We live as though the world was what it should be, to show
> it what it can be.
>
> His scheme is all about 'showing the world what it can be'. Refusing
> to accept the world as it is.
And the ATS world (kinda unlike the BTVS world in some ways) one
that's run by evil gods and such. After all these years, it's time to
set a new precedent.
-AOQ
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
it appears that they knew roughly where each season would start and end
but they often didnt plan the middle even month by month
so they ended up with pacing problems
where they got one element too advanced too early
and would languish until rest of the show caught up
or find themselves running against the end
with too many unresolved issues suddenly demanding resolution
Elisi
> I must admit that I haven't been paying the particular attention to
> Spike's part in recent episodes that maybe it deserves. He's one of
> an ensemble, so maybe it takes someone for whom he's their absolute
> favorite character to properly appreciate this stuff at first glance.
I wouldn't say it leapt out at me on first watch - then it was pretty
much 'OMG what is Angel doing???' Although I do like the fact that
Spike became 'one of the team' - on BtVS he was always the loner, even
in a crowd.
> Something to keep an eye on next time...
Always plenty of that... :)
One Bit Shy
OK. Let me expand upon my throw away remark. I don't believe for a second
that he has no options. I think the notion is ludicrous and has *not* been
sold by the series. At most, it might have been sold by W&H to Angel the
rube, but then we've also already been told not to let W&H make you play
their game.
So you say he can't walk out? (Which is not the only option.) That's an
interesting conclusion to reach in a season that sees the return of Lindsey
who did walk out and then constructed a rather remarkable assault on the
venerable institute from the outside, thereby demonstrating to Angel that
such a thing can be done.
Leaving W&H can't bring any more harm to him and his crew than he expects
now, but has the potential to buy better opportunities - perhaps with the
input of the clever folks around him rather than keeping them in the dark.
Leaving wouldn't settle the question of his role in the apocalypse any more
than any of his other actions have. (Indeed, the one redeeming feature to
his proposed plan is that I don't see why it would bring down the wrath of
W&H. His earlier purge of Holland and company didn't. He's no less in the
prophecy because of it - and evidently W&H place great store in that
prophecy. Vg'f gur fvtavat njnl bs uvf shgher va gur arkg rcvfbqr gung
frggyrf gur dhrfgvba - gur guvat gung tvirf J&U yrnir gb pbzr nsgre uvz.
Abg xvyvat gur ovt onq qrzbaf abe yrnivat J&U. Natry perngrf n qbbz ur
qbrfa'g unir gb ol sbyybjvat uvf vzchyfr.)
Angel has lots of options. Joining the Black Thorn can't be the only way to
learn more about them - including who they are. As pointed out elsewhere,
he'd have done just as well with a list of W&H's top clients. Nor is one
suicidal knock-out punch the only possible way to go after them. Nor is
bringing down everybody around him the only way to do that. If he's so
determined to go out in a spasm of glory, then take his son's idea and go to
the next Black Thorn meeting wrapped in a bomb, blow everybody up, and then
find out if there are any virgins waiting for him in heaven.
And staying in W&H does not and never did need to be the trap it's painted
as. Eve's famous catch recited in the first episode of the season was a
clever framing that itself nudged Angel to blind himself to the
possibilities. With the resources of W&H at his fingertips so to speak, he
had the opportunity to wreck serious havoc upon the client list revealed to
him before the survivors (which would not be all) moved next door. The
opportunity to destroy the vast collection of artifacts and other weapons of
destruction housed within. The opportunity to bring down that office and
still walk out with his own vast array of weapons and information that would
well serve him and any allies (like say a certain Slayer army) to carry on
the fight to all of the W&H offices and/or wherever next door those clients
moved to.
Angel's failure of imagination this season is quite impressive. The most
notable thing to me about the trap he's been in all season long is how
little he's tried to escape it.
There's only one way I see to make this seem real. And that's not to play
up the notion of having no choice, but rather that this choice is the one
that plays to Angel's desires - the one that exploits the weaknesses within
him that he's always had. His narrowness of choice is only because this is
the only choice he actually wants.
Remember Acathla.
I would submit that the only thing truly denied Angel has been his death.
Immortality has been his torment, his living hell. Death is what he yearns
for, but also a death that matters. (How happy he would have been to have
worn the amulet in Spike's place.) That's the story I see being told now.
He spoke quite eloquently about making Fred's death matter. That's what
he's selling himself and everybody else on now as the only purpose that
counts.
> The PTB gave him a vision, but it wasn't about a girl in an alley - it
> was about the architects of the apocalypse. Showing how he could use
> W&H as a weapon.
All we know about the vision is that it showed him who the enemy was.
(Vaguely at that.) What to do about it is his choice - not something shown
him. Anything else would deny the ongoing theme about choices. I see no
evidence that occurred.
> He can wield the weapon or not... but those are his
> only choices. And if he waits, he chooses by default. He has power now
> - actual, real power - and he can't worry about 'the small stuff'
> anymore. This is a sad fact. He can make a difference, even if it's
> just for a moment, or he can go back to being an ant. And get trodden
> on.
I dispute the notion - and that there is but one way to weild the weapon.
The framing represents the limits of Angel's brooding philosophy. In a
sense he's back on Amends' hill waiting for the sun to rise. He's got a
more spectacular end in mind, but he's just as deaf to alternatives as he
was to Buffy's pleas.
> See it remind me of LoTR - after the battle at Minas Tirith, when they
> know that Frodo and Sam might still be alive. And they decide to take
> as big an army as they can scrape together and march towards Mordor.
> They know that Sauron's army is huge, and that they'll probably all
> die. That no one might ever know about their last stand, that it'll in
> all likelyhood make very little difference. But - as Gandalf says -
> Sauron'll want to crush them, like a man grasping a wasp. Hopefully
> they'll be able to sting him before he kills them. (I really should go
> look up the exact quote, but I don't have the time.)
I expect that Angel would love the comparison. It would really suit his
idea of the heroic stand. He's probably read every book there is about the
Alamo too.
But Gandalf and Aragorn knew where the real hope lied (Frodo and Sam) and
how their march to Mordor could help them by distracting Sauron at the
critical moment. Where's Frodo in this story? Where's that spark of real
hope?
> It all comes back
> to this speech:
>
> ANGEL: But that's why there's us. Champions. It doesn't matter where
> we come from, what we've done or suffered, or even if we make a
> difference. We live as though the world was what it should be, to show
> it what it can be.
> 'Deep Down'
It sure mattered to Gandalf and Aragorn whether they made a difference.
They weren't making a symbolic stand just to show others how it's done.
Hector was a great champion for his deeds defending Troy - not for his death
and Troy's eventual fall.
Angel's concept of champion is quite noble in its fashion - and quite worthy
for carrying on the fight and accepting death when it must come. But it
need not be death seeking. Showing the world what it can be does not place
making death matter first. The value is in making life matter.
>> And most importantly, he's willing to
>> sacrifice those around him - that he cares about. More than Drogyn.
>> (Though even Drogyn is presented as far more connected to Angel than
>> anybody
>> in the locked room with Holland.) Even in his S2 flirtation with his
>> dark
>> side he resisted that - pushing them away rather than risk them instead.
>
> Yes, but unlike before he's asking them to _help_. It really is the
> most beautiful contrast with 'Home' and Angel's 'executive decision'.
The hell it is. He's already set everything in motion and springs the
decision upon them so late and in a fashion that makes a no answer doomed
and cowardly. They had no real choice. They're the last move of pices by
Angel in his scheme.
You keep slipping past the central image of Why We Fight - the bound and
gagged (as in unable to contribute) figures of Wesley, Gunn & Fred forced to
watch the fate of those who follow Angel. They have no more input now and
are offered no viable alternative to their fate.
> Heck Buffy does almost exactly the same in 'Chosen'. Which reminds me
> of another quote:
So similar and so different. Buffy offers hope with her plan - a huge, huge
difference. She didn't construct the confrontation that presses them -
she's just proposing a way out. If they say no - well, then she'll have to
come up with a plan B. Her plan isn't already underway.
The concept of Chosen is to walk out of it vastly more powerful than when
they walked in. It offers a global empowerment that will just keep on
giving. Angel doesn't envision walking out.
> ANYA: And yet, here's the thing. When it's something that really
> matters, they fight. I mean, they're lame morons for fighting, but
> they do. They never... never quit. So I guess I will keep fighting,
> too.
And that, Elisi, is the core of my issue. Angel isn't out to keep fighting.
This is the last fight. He's quitting. The better parallel to BtVS is The
Gift - albeit a parallel that shows the weakness of Angel's choice. For
Angel's choice cannot compare to Buffy's choice back then because it lacks
the true urgency of saving the world right now, nor does it include the true
removal of all choice that Buffy faced. And most of all, it takes those
around him down with him.
> Angel's choice is to fight - or to stay. Of course he chooses to
> fight. Even if it kills him.
I'd say because it kills him.
OBS
Apteryx
news:1173299371.8...@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
How much the ending may differ from the ending intended before cancellation
is not something that can be sensibly discussed before the series has ended.
So you had better hurry up and review NFA, because I get the impression that
half the posts in this thread are desperately trying to discuss the series
ending rather than PP as such.
--
Apteryx
Michael Ikeda
>
> Again, no point in doing first-reaction reviews given that I've
> seen them, but is anyone interested in going through the
> _Firefly_ 'verse as a group, episode by episode? It could be a
> fun NG activity or something.
>
Sounds good to me.
Clairel
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
> ANGEL
> Season Five, Episode 21: "Power Play"
> (or "It's not about right, not about wrong. It's about... well, you
> know")
> Director: James A. Contner
>
> miss in execution. The hits generally outnumber the misses, but it
> conveys the same sense that the last few episodes of BTVS did, that
> there's a good story being told by a narrator with a speech impediment
> (just came up with that one. I'm kinda proud of it). I think that
> the meaning is conveyed well enough to entertain, and the problems are
> more of an annoyance than a crippling flaw. But let's go through both
> the good and less good:
> earlier..." trope. By which I mostly mean that I'm tired of it when it
> serves no real narrative purpose. In this instance, however, even
> though it's pure gimmick, it serves a thematic purpose, if not a plot
> one. It gives the episode a bit of the "this is big stuff" feel it
> needs to color the lightness of Angel's first real-time appearance in
> his scene with Nina. With regard to the Angel/Nina relationship I
> feel somewhat cheated that the show has steadfastly refused to give us
> a chance to watch it develop either pre- or post-"Smile Time." I like
> both characters, and I like Angel getting a chance at a non-
> overwrought romance, but we never see any of it. I'm aware that ATS
> operates on the principle that gloom is more entertaining than joy,
> but this season has sometimes crossed the line past "no one is ever
> allowed to be happy for any sustained period of time... and if they do,
> affection of the bedroom scene, and Nina gets some great lines (see
> the QWQ section). Of course, Angel does the hero thing and sends her
> away, presumably off the show forever, which tantalizes the viewer
> Will get to the W&H plot in a second, but I'd like to make mention of
> the Spike/Illyria exchange as she finds a new partner in exploring
> humanity from the outside. He's actually almost a better foil for her
> than Wesley once we leave the Fred stuff behind (although Spike has a
> good line about that too). In an ideal world there'd be lots more
> show and they'd get lots of scenes together, and he would exclusively
> address her as "Blue" (I really like that for some reason).
>
> So, our hero's sold out, or so he wants us to believe. A plot which
> keeps the viewer wondering throughout, dangling bits of hope that he's
> episode). Weaving in past events like Fred's death - Angel loved her
> (but then, so did Knox...) but won't give a direct answer about it.
> It's a mostly good premise. The complaints are taking up a lot more
> space as I'm writing this, so let me take a second to emphasize that I
> do appreciate a lot of this. I'm kinda swept up in it, in fact. But
> just a smidgeon of subtlety or restraint would have gone a long way
> here. He's practically waving signs around, giving some of the
> ludicriously over-the-top speechifying that he mocked Illyria for a
> couple episodes ago. If there's a drinking game built around clunky
> speeches, the "get to the top, be the best" rant is sure to get
> everyone in the room trashed. The extent of this transformation seems
> too extreme to happen so quickly, a problem which applies regardless
> of whether it's sincere or a ploy. Perhaps equally damning, the
> individual scenes sometimes play out in boring ways. Even if one
> doesn't know where the overall plot is going, one knows that, say, the
> senator will propose a plan that involves sodomizing kittens and force-
> feeding their bones to minority children with cancer or whatever, Gunn
> will begin a righteous tirade against it, and Angel will cut him off
> and play along, much to his lawyer's worried annoyance. In that
> regard "Power Play" is the opposite of the best moments of the
> Buffyverse, since when the shows are at their best, one is wrong half
> the time when trying to chart the direction of a new scene.
>
> Spike jumps in as the street-fighting hero, as he's wont to do when
> Angel falters or pretends to. And truth-teller guy from AHITW is
> involved here, rather abruptly "revealing" that Angel wanted to bring
> back Illyria. Yet again, I'm appreciating the scope of the plot
> (don't know where the obsession with betraying a friend comes in, but
> after all the harping on it, it turns out to have allegedly already
> happened weeks ago. I like that kind of thing), and the way the
> actors are behaving (Denisof is a standout, as always) but not so much
> the dialogue. Good to see that Lindsey's not forgotten, even if it's
> a bit of a drive-by role. The video games at the apartment seem like
> they should make for a funnier premise than actually emerges, although
> I like the line "it is a test, a task of some sort. You must collect
> those crystals. And the fruit." Sadly Illyria doesn't get to be part
> of the team, and Corporate Jayne gets to bust out his badass side for
> the first time in awhile. Their fight does a good job making her look
> competent while making him look all more deadly, and it's sickeningly
> one-sided. That's left on a bit of a suspense moment too... hope she's
> okay.
>
> dramatically in to eat the victim and achieve his final destiny.
> Which in part involves a cocktail party (of DOOM!) with some of Season
> Five's schmoozers, helping retroactively give more significance to the
> just another ritual and villain group, there's no doubt that this is
> the big moment. After a very nice shot of our hero striding through
> the empty building, there's the ending non-confrontation which nicely
> transitions into Angel explaining the plot to us as well as to his
> employees. And it's steeped in the past. Bringing it all back to
> Cordelia feels very appropriate. "You're Welcome" and everything
> after it makes a new kind of sense as part of this bigger design of
> putting him on this path. And Angel being spurred to fight back by
> Fred's death as the catalyst... cool. It's a clever twist to the point
> where I really want it to work, and am forcibly trying to make it make
> total sense. There's again the nagging feeling, though, that it kinda
> comes out of nowhere, with no evidence that the writers had any idea
> they were going this direction prior to "Time Bomb." My guess as to
> why is that, well, they had no idea that this would be the story prior
> to "Time Bomb," what with the cancellation and all. It shows.
>
> fact that it brings its own layer of moral issues. It's only by
> starting his plan to take down the Black Thorn that Dead Boy becomes
> what they want him to be - taking an active rather than a passive role
> in refusing help to people in need, handing out human blood, giving
> away babies to be sacrificed, and, of course, killing. He never did
> that stuff while he was complacent with the corruption. The grandiose
> nature of the plan itself is vintage Angel, a mix of Buffy-esque
> changing the rules with ATS's thing about endless fights and cruel
> Universes. Lindsey in a way helps inspire our hero to make it his
> game and send a message to the gods that've helped shape the past five
> seasons. And in the meantime, Hamilton... well, the first time I
> watched that part, I wasn't actually clear on whether he's seeing
> through the glamour or not. Okay. One hundred nine down...
>
> Quotes Worth Quoting:
> - "Did you catch how I subtly included myself in your vacation
> package?... Too pushy, too needy, I never even said it. You should
> make love on the beach all by yourself"
> - "He and I are no longer having intercourse"
> - "You may not think you're as powerful as you were, Highness, but
> looking like Fred, for some of us... it's the most devastating power
> you have"
> - "Guess I don't have to worry about that, cuz Angel and me have never
> been intimate. Except that one..."
--Okay, AOQ, this is of major importance: What one occasion do you
think Spike was referring to?
Remember, because of the dialogue in the 1890s flashbacks in TGIQ, we
know that Darla and Drusilla never allowed the boys to engage in
threesomes or foursomes with them. (Awfully straight-laced, those
soulless vampire females, aren't they?) So when was the one occasion
of shared intimacy between Spike and Angel?
I say that after VampWilliam (not yet Spike) ineffectually protested
Angelus's Dru-shagging/assertion of Alpha male status in 1880 London
(as shown in AtS episode 5.8), Angelus decided to assert himself
further by beating the new vamp-boy groggy and then having his wicked
way with VampWilliam. But it was a one-time thing, and it doesn't
count as intimacy between Spike and Angel, because Angel wasn't Angel
then--he was Angelus. And the actual intimacy between Angel and Spike
didn't take place till close to the end of TGIQ, when Angel and Spike
were flying back from Italy to LA, trying to get drunk again and
feeling thoroughly disconsolate because of Buffy and the Immortal.
They ended up consoling each other, as guys will do.
Do you agree? (If you have no firm opinion, ask Mrs. AOQ about this.)
> - "Yes, why the sudden need to tie up loose ends...?" [insert your
> own joke here]
> - "That's typical. You sleep with a guy and he sends your entire
> family out of the country. No, wait, that's actually not that typical
> at all. You couldn't just not call?"
> - "Uh, do you want me to point my crossbow at him? 'Cause I think
> he's gonna start talking about ants again"
> - "I'm talking full-on hell, not the basic fire-and-brimstone kind
> we're used to"
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: I think it works for me.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
>
> [Season Five so far:
> 1) "Conviction" - Weak
> 2) "Just Rewards" - Good
> 3) "Unleashed" - Good
> 4) "Hell Bound" - Decent
> 5) "Life Of The Party" - Weak
> 6) "The Cautionary Tale Of Numero Cinco" - Decent
> 7) "Lineage" - Good
> 8) "Destiny" - Good
> 9) "Harm's Way" - Good
> 10) "Soul Purpose" - Good
> 11) "Damage" - Good
> 12) "You're Welcome" - Good
> 13) "Why We Fight" - Weak
> 14) "Smile Time" - Excellent
> 15) "A Hole In The World" - Decent
> 16) "Shells" - Good
> 17) "Underneath" - Good
> 18) "Origin" - Excellent
> 19) "Time Bomb" - Decent
> 20) "The Girl In Question" - Weak
> 21) "Power Play" - Good]
--Again, pretty much a fair and reasonable review; one that gives due
appreciation to what is to be appreciated, and is only a bit overly
harsh and impatient with the parts you find plodding and predictable
(I didn't, by the way).
I thought Angel's and Nina's "afterglow" scene said volumes about
their relationship, and I don't really feel cheated that we didn't see
everything leading up to it. TV shows have to use this kind of
shorthand compression, especially when they find they've been
unexpectedly cancelled.
How do you feel about Angel setting Drogyn up as an unwitting victim,
and then biting into the guy when asked? Ethically problematic, no
matter what Angel's ultimate goal, isn't it?
Clairel
Clairel
--I would, if you wait till the last week of March.
I would like to rewatch those Firefly episodes (I don't know them by
heart the way I know AtS and BtVS episodes), but as of the end of next
week I'll be busy till about March 28.
Would you like to take a break till then, AOQ? Or start without me if
you must.
Clairel
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
>> C'mon, Arb, FIREFLY--and SERENITY--awaits. In one episode and one month you
>> could complete the Whedon & Mutant Enemy trilogy. No longer would it nag at
>> you, nag at you, nag at you.
>
> Again, no point in doing first-reaction reviews given that I've seen
> them, but is anyone interested in going through the _Firefly_ 'verse
> as a group, episode by episode? It could be a fun NG activity or
> something.
I'd be interested. Would you still write reviews for each episode to
start the discussion off? That might produce better discussions than
everyone just saying "okay, today we will talk about Jaynestown." (Or do
I just think that because I'm so used to the AOQ format now?)
One Bit Shy
> Again, no point in doing first-reaction reviews given that I've seen
> them, but is anyone interested in going through the _Firefly_ 'verse
> as a group, episode by episode? It could be a fun NG activity or
> something.
I'd be interested, but I don't think I'd participate much.
OBS
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> So, this month the comic book version of Season 8 of Buffy should be
> coming out. I wonder if an Angel Season 6 comic is lurking in the back
> of the skull of Joss? (The awkwardness of the ending of that sentence
> brought to you by the weirdness of the look of the words "Joss's skull."
> 4 s's - esses?- in a row is just wrong.)
At least you didn't try to cut an S out by writing "Joss' skull." Now
that would *really* be wrong. Forming the possessive by just adding an
apostrophe at the end should only be done if the word ends in a single S,
not a double S. (I say so with the authority of someone whose surname
ends in a double S.) Even worse is when people try to add an apostrophe
to a word ending in X or Z. This is an abomination. There is no such
thing as "Oz' van" or "Apteryx' rating."
Rowan Hawthorn
>
> Again, no point in doing first-reaction reviews given that I've seen
> them, but is anyone interested in going through the _Firefly_ 'verse
> as a group, episode by episode? It could be a fun NG activity or
> something.
>
I would, but I don't know that I'd actually participate any more than I
have with AtS. On the other hand, I *have* seen the entire series and
the movie, and have the episodes available to watch along with the
discussion, which wasn't the case with AtS.
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Ken from Chicago
> On Mar 6, 5:05 am, "Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1b_nos...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
>> messagenews:1173163621....@8g2000cwh.googlegroups.com...
<snip>
>> C'mon, Arb, FIREFLY--and SERENITY--awaits. In one episode and one month
>> you
>> could complete the Whedon & Mutant Enemy trilogy. No longer would it nag
>> at
>> you, nag at you, nag at you.
>
> Again, no point in doing first-reaction reviews given that I've seen
> them, but is anyone interested in going through the _Firefly_ 'verse
> as a group, episode by episode? It could be a fun NG activity or
> something.
>
> -AOQ
>
You can't stop the group signal.
-- Ken from Chicago
jil...@hotmail.com
> --Okay, AOQ, this is of major importance: What one occasion do you
> think Spike was referring to?
>
> Remember, because of the dialogue in the 1890s flashbacks in TGIQ, we
> know that Darla and Drusilla never allowed the boys to engage in
> threesomes or foursomes with them. (Awfully straight-laced, those
> soulless vampire females, aren't they?) So when was the one occasion
> of shared intimacy between Spike and Angel?
Actually, my suspicion is that Darla was keeping her status as alpha
to the group, by keeping some of the sexual antics the boys wanted out
of their reach until she felt like they deserved it.
> I say that after VampWilliam (not yet Spike) ineffectually protested
> Angelus's Dru-shagging/assertion of Alpha male status in 1880 London
> (as shown in AtS episode 5.8), Angelus decided to assert himself
> further by beating the new vamp-boy groggy and then having his wicked
> way with VampWilliam. But it was a one-time thing, and it doesn't
> count as intimacy between Spike and Angel, because Angel wasn't Angel
> then--he was Angelus.
I know that people are awfully fond of rape and sexual torture, but my
suspicion is that Angelus can rape just about anyone, but he and
William probably played, eventually.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> In alt.tv.angel Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> C'mon, Arb, FIREFLY--and SERENITY--awaits. In one episode and one month you
> >> could complete the Whedon & Mutant Enemy trilogy. No longer would it nag at
> >> you, nag at you, nag at you.
>
> > Again, no point in doing first-reaction reviews given that I've seen
> > them, but is anyone interested in going through the _Firefly_ 'verse
> > as a group, episode by episode? It could be a fun NG activity or
> > something.
>
> I'd be interested. Would you still write reviews for each episode to
> start the discussion off? That might produce better discussions than
> everyone just saying "okay, today we will talk about Jaynestown." (Or do
> I just think that because I'm so used to the AOQ format now?)
I'd consider it. Not without a break after ATS, though.
-AOQ
Don Sample
"jil...@hotmail.com" <jil...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 7, 2:59 pm, "Clairel" <relde...@usa.net> wrote:
> > --Okay, AOQ, this is of major importance: What one occasion do you
> > think Spike was referring to?
> >
> > Remember, because of the dialogue in the 1890s flashbacks in TGIQ, we
> > know that Darla and Drusilla never allowed the boys to engage in
> > threesomes or foursomes with them. (Awfully straight-laced, those
> > soulless vampire females, aren't they?) So when was the one occasion
> > of shared intimacy between Spike and Angel?
>
> Actually, my suspicion is that Darla was keeping her status as alpha
> to the group, by keeping some of the sexual antics the boys wanted out
> of their reach until she felt like they deserved it.
Darla and Dru never allowed the boys to do both of them at once. They
might have operated under similar rules to Harmony: No threesomes
unless it's boy, boy, girl...or Charlize Theron.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Angel has lots of options. Joining the Black Thorn can't be the only way to
> learn more about them - including who they are. As pointed out elsewhere,
> he'd have done just as well with a list of W&H's top clients.
If they were the first few names on a company list, they wouldn't be
much of a secret society, now would they?
> Nor is one
> suicidal knock-out punch the only possible way to go after them.
His plan requires that the whole group go down together, not get
injured or killed two or three at a time so that the meetings continue
and they train replacements. And he's also been led to believe that
speed is of the essence, since the end of the seri... er, the
apocalypse is nigh.
> > The PTB gave him a vision, but it wasn't about a girl in an alley - it
> > was about the architects of the apocalypse. Showing how he could use
> > W&H as a weapon.
>
> > It all comes back
> > to this speech:
>
> > ANGEL: But that's why there's us. Champions. It doesn't matter where
> > we come from, what we've done or suffered, or even if we make a
> > difference. We live as though the world was what it should be, to show
> > it what it can be.
> > 'Deep Down'
>
> It sure mattered to Gandalf and Aragorn whether they made a difference.
> They weren't making a symbolic stand just to show others how it's done.
> Hector was a great champion for his deeds defending Troy - not for his death
> and Troy's eventual fall.
>
> Angel's concept of champion is quite noble in its fashion - and quite worthy
> for carrying on the fight and accepting death when it must come. But it
> need not be death seeking. Showing the world what it can be does not place
> making death matter first. The value is in making life matter.
There're lots of words here, but let me try to sum up my understanding
of the story. It's all about choice. Angel has been given a once-in-
a-lifetime opportunity to strike back against the Senior Partners, on
behalf of mortals everywhere. He can give everything to show the
world how it should be, or he can live with the world as it is, in
thrall to evil forces. That's the choice. That's the intent of the
story.
Criticize the depiction if you want: feeling like this Black Thorn
thing comes out of nowhere, feeling like he doesn't give his friends
enough of a true choice, feeling like the show isn't acknowledging
other options... whatever. But I'm pretty sure that this is the story
that it's attempting to tell.
Your idea of him also having a death-wish and so forth is interesting,
and very well may be part of things, but I don't think that's the main
thing we're meant to draw from PP.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> In article <1173320805.589127.299...@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com>,
>
> "jil...@hotmail.com" <jil...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > On Mar 7, 2:59 pm, "Clairel" <relde...@usa.net> wrote:
> > > --Okay, AOQ, this is of major importance: What one occasion do you
> > > think Spike was referring to?
>
> > > Remember, because of the dialogue in the 1890s flashbacks in TGIQ, we
> > > know that Darla and Drusilla never allowed the boys to engage in
> > > threesomes or foursomes with them. (Awfully straight-laced, those
> > > soulless vampire females, aren't they?) So when was the one occasion
> > > of shared intimacy between Spike and Angel?
>
> > Actually, my suspicion is that Darla was keeping her status as alpha
> > to the group, by keeping some of the sexual antics the boys wanted out
> > of their reach until she felt like they deserved it.
>
> Darla and Dru never allowed the boys to do both of them at once. They
> might have operated under similar rules to Harmony: No threesomes
> unless it's boy, boy, girl...or Charlize Theron.
Also, "never" as of whenever TGIQ takes place. After how much fun
they had, they had a few years before Romania to change their minds.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> On Mar 6, 12:47 am, "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> > - "Guess I don't have to worry about that, cuz Angel and me have never
> > been intimate. Except that one..."
>
> --Okay, AOQ, this is of major importance: What one occasion do you
> think Spike was referring to?
It's not of major importance, though. The reason the line is so funny
is that it canonizes a homosexual encounter of some kind for those who
want to think about it, but leaves it as vague as could possibly be
imagined. Fans can invent their own scenarios, non-fans of the idea
can easily explain it away, and those of us who kinda like the concept
but don't devote much time to pursuing the thought further are content
to leave it unknown.
> Remember, because of the dialogue in the 1890s flashbacks in TGIQ, we
> know that Darla and Drusilla never allowed the boys to engage in
> threesomes or foursomes with them. (Awfully straight-laced, those
> soulless vampire females, aren't they?)
As I mentioned downthread, one simple explanation: they changed their
minds in the few years after those scenes.
> So when was the one occasion
> of shared intimacy between Spike and Angel?
>
> I say that after VampWilliam (not yet Spike) ineffectually protested
> Angelus's Dru-shagging/assertion of Alpha male status in 1880 London
> (as shown in AtS episode 5.8), Angelus decided to assert himself
> further by beating the new vamp-boy groggy and then having his wicked
> way with VampWilliam. But it was a one-time thing, and it doesn't
> count as intimacy between Spike and Angel, because Angel wasn't Angel
> then--he was Angelus.
The dialogue in these shows doesn't always make a distinction between
souled and unsouled versions of a character - and Spike in particular
certainly doesn't.
And the actual intimacy between Angel and Spike
> didn't take place till close to the end of TGIQ, when Angel and Spike
> were flying back from Italy to LA, trying to get drunk again and
> feeling thoroughly disconsolate because of Buffy and the Immortal.
> They ended up consoling each other, as guys will do.
>
> Do you agree?
Most guys won't, only some. Anyway, I don't agree just because I
don't see Angel cheating on Nina - not an impossibility, but I prefer
to think that he was interested in giving this new thing a chance. If
I have to place the moment of intimacy, I'd say it was during the
period when they were getting along as evil vampires, since there's
just no place in S5 where it really makes sense.
-AOQ
DysgraphicProgrammer
Funny, I was just reading a Languige log post earlier today about
exactly that issue: "http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/
archives/004268.html"
One Bit Shy
news:1173322108.9...@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>> Angel has lots of options. Joining the Black Thorn can't be the only way
>> to
>> learn more about them - including who they are. As pointed out
>> elsewhere,
>> he'd have done just as well with a list of W&H's top clients.
>
> If they were the first few names on a company list, they wouldn't be
> much of a secret society, now would they?
So he could work with Wesley to analyze the billing records to identify
likely candidates and do detective work to zero in on them. The big
revelation is they exist. With that info there are more ways to go about
identifying them than joining them. That's reflective of Angel's
extravagent way - not necessity.
But even putting the Black Thorn aside, W&H's client list always could have
been a powerful weapon to someone not obsessed with doing it all himself.
Hmmm. I wonder what that cyborg clan from Lineage is up to these days...
I'm not trying to rewrite the story with any of this. My point is that the
only way I see to make it play real is for the choices Angel makes now - and
retrospectively made (or not made) through the season - to be dominated by
his compulsions - including his destructive ones - rather than necessity.
He has so few choices because that's all he allows himself.
>> Nor is one
>> suicidal knock-out punch the only possible way to go after them.
>
> His plan
*His* plan. From the guy with a history of going for the mass kill. Kill
them all.
> requires that the whole group go down together, not get
> injured or killed two or three at a time so that the meetings continue
> and they train replacements.
It wouldn't be very elite if it was that easy to replace people.
> And he's also been led to believe that
> speed is of the essence,
I think I missed that scene.
> since the end of the seri... er, the
> apocalypse is nigh.
The apocalypse is a 1000 year deal. I think he's got a little wiggle room.
The series... I mentioned elsewhere that I'd probably be more comfortable
with the choice if there was a S6 on the way. Presumably the consequence of
this decision would define something significant in that future season. As
a series end, I'm less comfortable. And even with the urgency of the series
end looming, they're not forced to choose this manner. It would take very
little effort to design something more survivable, or to engage his team in
the planning - something that is more redemptive than taking everybody down
with him. Hell, even the same proposal could have been made with the hope
of survival. But the message here is a straight you're gonna die.
Angel: We don't walk away from that.
----
Angel: 10-to-1, we're gone when the smoke clears.
----
Spike: Kill 'em all... burn the house down while we're still in it.
And all I'm saying is that it's the choice *he* sees, not necessarily all
there is. This isn't BtVS, though Angel surely could use Buffy's counsel
now, but as comparison, this wouldn't be how Buffy would look at it. She'd
insist on an alternative. This is pure Angel black and white framing. True
to the character, but also the thing he's struggled with forever, the thing
that's caused him all sorts of trouble. The series had its own fundamental
choice to make - what side of that issue to come down on. Does he revert to
form - replay Reprise, but with a better plan? Is that Angel's final
message? Come up with a better plan? The conclusion of this episode
suggests that.
The alternative would be for Angel to reject the premise of their being just
that choice.
You see, I'm not really questioning the setup - just its intrinsic truth.
I'm trying to point all of it - including the framing of the choices - to be
found within Angel.
> Criticize the depiction if you want: feeling like this Black Thorn
> thing comes out of nowhere,
It kind of does, but it doesn't bother me. They did much worse in BtVS.
> feeling like he doesn't give his friends
> enough of a true choice,
He doesn't. But I'm not criticizing that as failure of depiction. I see it
as a reflection of his moral choice.
> feeling like the show isn't acknowledging
> other options...
I don't have a problem with that. I think they're implicit.
> whatever. But I'm pretty sure that this is the story
> that it's attempting to tell.
I'm *not* criticizing the telling of the story. I think it's a very real
feeling outcome that is true to Angel's character and represents all sorts
of things we've seen before it. There's even a bunch of foreshadowing
showing at least the risk of this outcome. And it's powerful in its
fashion.
I just don't like the final writers choice made. They came down on the side
of him succumbing to this compulsion within himself, succumbing to the
inevitability of him repeating the same destructive choice he keeps making,
instead of choosing for him to somehow overcome it - even if that proved
deadly too.
> Your idea of him also having a death-wish and so forth is interesting,
> and very well may be part of things, but I don't think that's the main
> thing we're meant to draw from PP.
From PP I'm not so sure it isn't, though it's true that one must drive down
a ways for that. But there's still one more episode to modify my thoughts.
Also, in spite of all my words, I haven't really explained all of that. I
was focused on trying to trying to express how the definition of choices in
this episode is all Angel's worldview of the moment (with maybe some helpful
nudges from W&H) rather than what is intrinsically true. Evidently that's
been taken as my criticism of a writing failure, but that's not what I mean.
I think that's writer intent. And up to what Angel actually does with it, I
think it's pretty good writing. After that it's more a matter of preference
than it is of quality.
As for the death thing, I don't want to spend a lot more time on it. But
let me proffer one idea. The Shanshu prophecy - or becoming a real boy. As
I see it, the whole concept of it is absolution - or reaching heaven. When
Angel struggles with whether to believe in Shanshu or to hold out hope for
becoming a real boy, it's his internal self questioning whether he can
achieve absolution. Whether he can go to heaven.
OBS
One Bit Shy
> On Mar 6, 7:26 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
I realized after reading AOQ's comment that I may have created the wrong
impression of my opinions.
While I do have some criticisms of the show's writing this year, as regards
to the issue at hand - the nature of the choices available to Angel - I have
none of any significance. I think the writing has been fine, usually very
good on that subject. My only criticism is where Angel ended up - and
that's a matter of preference, not bad writing.
The idea that I've been attempting to express is that the framing of the
choices available to Angel is a construct of Angel's own mind - not what is
intrinsically true. And I believe that is intended in the story. The issue
at the end isn't whether Angel turns bad or not. Whether he reverts to
Angelus or some modern equivalent. That part is just the sham front. The
issue is whether, at the end, he can overcome the limits of his own nature.
Will he put down the internal demons that he's fought for as long as we've
known the character, or will he finally find his way past them. Evidently
the writers concluded that being Angel means forever making this choice.
And I'm just a bit disappointed with that as a series end. My preference.
Angel is quite mad you see. That's been a subtext to his character at least
since Innocence. Whether it be imagining Angelus as some sort of
independent entity within himself, coping with guilt by living off of rats
hunted in alleys, or obsessing on Buffy as some sort of representation of
redeeming purity. Throughout it all Angel has wrestled first with the
demons within himself. Brooding and exploding. Brooding and exploding.
Back in Soul Purpose he blurts out, "Let's kill them all," shortly before
descending into hallucinations. A moment of madness then. Is it really
less mad now?
Angel's choices are what they are because he is unable to see them any other
way. And I find that sad. I guess finding another choice is Buffy's story,
not Angel's.
OBS
Elisi
> "Elisi" <elis...@gmail.com> wrote in message
I sadly really don't have time to go indepth with all of this, but I
_do_ see it quite diferently. I don't think Angel's mad and I don't
think he's suicidal (he might welcome death, but that's something
else. I don't think Buffy was suicidal in The Gift either, but she
welcomed death when it came). Re. The Black Thorn then the members are
'The SPs instruments on this earth. Doesn't get any bigger than
that.' (Lindsey, from memory). Killing a basement full of lawyers was
never a big deal, neither was destroying the whole LA branch. But this
elite group *runs* the Apocalypse (and it's not as easy as looking
through the list of top clients - there were people at that meting
that we'd never seen. Heck Angel had never _heard_ of Vail before
'Origin'). The Apocalypse that Angel is a pivotal player in. I'd say
that _stopping_ it (even if it's only for a moment) is quite an
achievement. That's what we're talking about - one big shining moment
(If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do etc).
Re. trying to 'walk away' there's also the big creature in the
basement specifically designed to kill Angel that Lindsey was going to
unleash....
Anyway, about The Apocalypse (that we've heard about for years and
years):
Must rot-13 the rest...
QNIVQ SHEL: Gur ernyyl pbby guvat nobhg Frnfba 6, jr xarj ubj Frnfba 5
jnf tbvat gb raq irel rneyl ba naq jr xarj jung vg jnf tbvat gb ynhapu
vagb jvgu Frnfba 6, juvpu jnf n cbfg-ncbpnylcgvp fubj [naq] juvpu V
gubhtug jnf tbvat gb or terng. Vg jnf tbvat gb or Natry va Gur Ebnq
Jneevbe, juvpu V gubhtug jbhyq or njrfbzr. Va gur ehvarq pvgl bs YN be
bhg va gur qrfreg be fbzrguvat, vg jnf whfg tbvat gb or xvaq bs n
ernyyl pbby, qvssrerag, fubj. Oevatvat Frgu vagb vg? V pbhyq frr gung.
Gurer jrer ybgf bs gnyxf nobhg jub pbhyq jr ybnq va urer, jub jbhyq or
terng gb erghea naq, vs gurer vf na ncbpnylcfr, jub jbhyq fheivir vg?
Jub jvyy or va gur fubj arkg frnfba?
****
Orpnhfr guvf vf gur guvat - qbrf Natry zbzragnevyl fgbc gur
ncbpnylcfr... be fgneg vg va rnearfg? Naq vf guvf n tbbq be n onq
guvat? Gur inzcver jvgu n fbhy jvyy cynl n ebyr va gur ncbpnyclfr, ohg
ab bar xabjf juvpu fvqr ur'yy or ba. Lrf ur pbzrf qbja svezyl ba gur
fvqr bs tbbq - ohg uvf npgvbaf zvtug hayrnfu uryy ba rnegu, fb... V'q
fnl ur shysvyyrq gur cebcurpl cerggl arngyl. (V pna'g gryy lbh ubj
unccl gung znxrf zr)
Naq nobhg Natry orvat znq - bu ab. Gur orfg guvat sbe zr nobhg F5 vf
Natry *svanyyl* vagretengvat uvf gjb unyirf, gur svany zbzrag bs
pbhefr orvat jura ur qevaxf sebz Unzvygba. Ohg V jnag gb fnir nyy gung
sbe NBD'f arkg cbfg. :)
Must run...
Ken from Chicago
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1173321076.0...@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Fine!
-- Ken from Chicago (who cancels the order of handcuffs, chains, bedpans and
a month of pizza deliveries)
Clairel
> On Mar 7, 4:59 pm, "Clairel" <relde...@usa.net> wrote:
>
> > On Mar 6, 12:47 am, "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> > > - "Guess I don't have to worry about that, cuz Angel and me have never
> > > been intimate. Except that one..."
>
> > --Okay, AOQ, this is of major importance: What one occasion do you
> > think Spike was referring to?
>
> It's not of major importance, though.
--Yes, I know. You so do not get my humor.
The reason the line is so funny
> is that it canonizes a homosexual encounter of some kind for those who
> want to think about it, but leaves it as vague as could possibly be
> imagined. Fans can invent their own scenarios, non-fans of the idea
> can easily explain it away, and those of us who kinda like the concept
> but don't devote much time to pursuing the thought further are content
> to leave it unknown.
--And then there are people like me, who are just full of mischief and
vinegar.
--When Angel and Spike flew to Rome, Angel told Spike that Nina wasn't
his girlfriend, just a friend. He had had breakfast with her. They
had spent time together talking, etc., but nothing overtly romantic.
Thus, when Angel and Spike were flying home from Rome, Angel was still
free and unattached, and anything he did with anybody else wouldn't
have been cheating on Nina.
But after their plane landed, Angel would have sobered up and been
rather embarrassed, and decided to salvage his heterosexuality by
actually dating Nina. In fact, the plane ride home with Spike could
have been what finally pushed Angel to take the final step with Nina.
Even aside from these fun speculations, it clearly is show canon that
what pushed Angel into dating and bedding Nina was some aspect of the
Buffy affair in TGIQ. Leave Spike out of it, and you still have an
Angel exasperated with his old hang-ups and determined to leave them
behind.
If
> I have to place the moment of intimacy, I'd say it was during the
> period when they were getting along as evil vampires, since there's
> just no place in S5 where it really makes sense.
--Except that plane ride home from Rome.
Clairel
Clairel
--True, they did have those last few years. Somehow, though, I just
don't see Darla ever having gotten a higher opinion of Spike than she
had in 1880. When they showed the 1900 China scenes in "Darla," she
was scolding Angel by saying "Spike, OF ALL PEOPLE, just killed a
slayer..." That sounded pretty contemptuous. Oddly enough, though,
by 1894 (if we can judge by the flashbacks in TGIQ), Angelus seems to
have had quite a high opinion of Spike. When Angelus and Spike are
vowing vengeance on The Immortal, Spike says something like "He'll
have Angelus to deal with," and Angelus returns the compliment by
intoning significantly, "And William the Bloody!".
The one thing I wish I could see more of is Angelus's and Spike's
interactions after the Yorkshire mineshaft scene in 1880, when Spike
was so wild and rebellious, and the Italy scenes in 1894. How did
Angelus and Spike get to be such harmonious working partners by 1894,
after the many conflicts we saw between them in 1880 (both in the
"Fool For Love"/"Darla" flashback scenes and the flashback scenes in
AtS episode 5.8)?
Clairel
Clairel
--Good (about the break).
I too think each discussion would go better if it started off with an
episode review by you.
Clairel
Elisi
No, not the plane ride. I can see where you're coming from (and heck,
one of the most enduring arguments in certain parts of the fandom is
plane Vs. desk), but they just don't act like it when they turn up in
LA. They're neither post-coital or embarrassed. And - a very important
fact! - they've not got jbf* hair. Here's my take, which ties in with
Entropy:
Spike moves as if to kiss Anya.
ANYA: Wait. Wait. What are we doing?
SPIKE: Moving on.
They kiss passionately.
The very end of TGiQ is the two of them, leaning on the desk, talking
about 'moving on'. In my mind, I can see *exactly* what happen after
the fade-to-black:
One of them turns to the other and casually says,
"So... wanna have sex?"
And after the tiniest of beats the other replies,
"Yeah, OK."
And then Angel grabs the phone and tells Harmony not to disturb him
unless it's the actual apocalypse and to make sure Gunn takes care of
the head - at which point Spike (who's already in the lift) says that
if Angel's going to take all day he'll just go out and get pissed
instead. And then Angel swears and jumps through the doors just as
they close and their first kiss is a lot angrier than Angel had
originally planned...
Then follows lots of fun and frolics in the penthouse, and the next
morning they both pretend like it wasn't a big deal or anything and
are all gruff and manly and never mention it again.
Heh. *g*
(Angel wasn't cheating on Nina. They were on a break.)
*jbf=just been fucked. The term was invented after 'Intervention'
aired.
Elisi
> In article <esjelv$u9...@readme.uio.no>,
> Espen Schjønberg <ess...@excite.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 06.03.2007 07:47, Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > > A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > > threads.
>
> > > ANGEL
> > > Season Five, Episode 21: "Power Play"
> > > (or "It's not about right, not about wrong. It's about... well, you
> > > know")
> > > Writer: David Fury
> > > Director: James A. Contner
>
> > conclusion I just didn't like them.
>
> > So, Angel kills Drogyn.
>
> > But if the bad guy was right about how this war works- it is forever, it
> > is not about winning or losing, just about what you do while you're in
> > it- how come Angel can think he is able to win it by a coup?
>
> And what does Angel accomplish by being admitted into the Black Thorn
> group? He gets a list of names of bad guys. But is there anyone on that
> list that he didn't already *know* was a bad guy?
>
> He'd have learned just as much by taking a look at the top tier of
> Wolfram and Hart's client list.
Vail for one wasn't a W&H client. They just did business with him.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> On Mar 7, 9:02 pm, "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mar 7, 4:59 pm, "Clairel" <relde...@usa.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 6, 12:47 am, "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> > > > - "Guess I don't have to worry about that, cuz Angel and me have never
> > > > been intimate. Except that one..."
>
> > > --Okay, AOQ, this is of major importance: What one occasion do you
> > > think Spike was referring to?
>
> > It's not of major importance, though.
>
> --Yes, I know. You so do not get my humor.
I don't get humor of any kind. Just ask anyone who posts here.
Anyway, I don't agree just because I
> > don't see Angel cheating on Nina - not an impossibility, but I prefer
> > to think that he was interested in giving this new thing a chance.
>
> --When Angel and Spike flew to Rome, Angel told Spike that Nina wasn't
> his girlfriend, just a friend. He had had breakfast with her. They
> had spent time together talking, etc., but nothing overtly romantic.
> Thus, when Angel and Spike were flying home from Rome, Angel was still
> free and unattached, and anything he did with anybody else wouldn't
> have been cheating on Nina.
That's kinda picking and choosing one's quotes, though. It's not
definitive. From later in that episode...
SPIKE: It's over. Just like that. Not that I thought I had a chance
anyway.
ANGEL: At least I have a girlfriend.
> But after their plane landed, Angel would have sobered up and been
> rather embarrassed, and decided to salvage his heterosexuality by
> actually dating Nina.
Some men might react by desperately trying to "salvage ther
heterosexuality," but I don't know about Angel. I'm struck by the
fact that he's totally relaxed around questions of sexual
orientation. He doesn't fear The Gay in the sense of seeing it as a
threat to him the way he does more direct questioning of his
masculinity. Think about his consistent lack of reaction to people
thinking he's gay compared to his dislike of looking girly or being
thought of as impotent. The question of whether this says that he's
bi/curious/whatever or just very comfortable in his skin, is, of
course, left as an exercise for the individual fanficcer.
> Even aside from these fun speculations, it clearly is show canon that
> what pushed Angel into dating and bedding Nina was some aspect of the
> Buffy affair in TGIQ. Leave Spike out of it, and you still have an
> Angel exasperated with his old hang-ups and determined to leave them
> behind.
I wouldn't call it show canon. It could just as easily have been the
impending apocalyptic stuff, or an attempt to distract himself from
it. Or all three. We don't really have a sense of how the Angel/Nina
relationship progressed bwteeen their first date in ST and their first
few times having intercourse in PP.
-AOQ
One Bit Shy
I'm running behind pretty badly, so I'm not sure I'll ever get the chance to
reply to this. Be sure to read my Not Fade Away post. It might alter a
little your perception of where I'm coming from. Power Play isn't the final
episode after all.
OBS
Espen Schjønberg
> Oddly enough, though,
> by 1894 (if we can judge by the flashbacks in TGIQ), Angelus seems to
> have had quite a high opinion of Spike. When Angelus and Spike are
> vowing vengeance on The Immortal, Spike says something like "He'll
> have Angelus to deal with," and Angelus returns the compliment by
> intoning significantly, "And William the Bloody!".
But thats because TGIQ is Angel having nightmare again.
--
Espen
George W Harris
:At least he doesn't make his friends - the surviving ones - complicit in the
:murder. He significantly doesn't involve them until it's already done. The
:only compromise they have to make is not to reject intelligence gathered in
:such a manner.
They didn't even have to do that. He never told
them that Drogyn was dead, much less that he killed
Drogyn; as far as they know, Drogyn and Illyria are still
playing Crash Bandicoot.
--
They say there's air in your lungs that's been there for years.
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.
Mel
George W Harris wrote:
> On Tue, 6 Mar 2007 22:45:39 +1300, "Apteryx" <apt...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>
> :At least he doesn't make his friends - the surviving ones - complicit in the
> :murder. He significantly doesn't involve them until it's already done. The
> :only compromise they have to make is not to reject intelligence gathered in
> :such a manner.
>
> They didn't even have to do that. He never told
> them that Drogyn was dead, much less that he killed
> Drogyn; as far as they know, Drogyn and Illyria are still
> playing Crash Bandicoot.
No, he told them he killed Drogyn. At the beginning of the next episode,
I believe, so that when Hamilton walks in, they truly have something to
be upset at him about and keep up the facade of discord. Which, at that
moment, was probably more real than acted.
Mel
George W Harris
:
:
Right. This is the discussions of "Power Play".
:
:
:Mel
--
"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar." -Wash, 'Serenity'