AOQ Angel Review 5-8: "Destiny"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
ANGEL
Season Five, Episode 8: "Destiny"
(or "Okay, can we move on to the fight scene, please?")
Writers: David Fury and Steven S. DeKnight
Director: Skip Schoolnik
This is kinda the part where things start to congeal. Season Five has
tried to avoid the same kind of serialization that the past two years
brought us, but as with all Whedon-produced shows, there are long-term
things going on, and here they're in the forefront. Of course, for
every answer, there's at least one new question, because that's how
things work this time of year.
But "Destiny" isn't about moving the plot forward so much as it's
about making it more personal to our heroes. Hence the flashbacks
centered around Drusilla, whose actor I was pleasantly surprised to
see listed among the commentators when I first looked at the DVD
case. Still no present-day Dru, which reminds me of how strange it
was when she disappeared. Maybe she'd served her purpose on BTVS
outside of flashback after "Crush," but she was in the thick of things
for like two weeks on ATS and then... wasn't. Anyway, her cat imitation
entertained me. Given how well Angel and Spike haven't gotten along
any time we've ever seen them, it's clever to make Angelus originally
take a liking to this new arrival. His openness to the idea of doing
certain things with another man almost skips the subtext phase
entirely, and then "you and me, we're gonna be the best of friends."
makes for a nice transition to present-day bickering.
Too bad Darla couldn't make it. Granted she's not the point of this
exercise, but neither is some of the other stuff in the show. This is
used as a transition to mention that "Destiny" has some very dull
stretches, particularly early on. Spike gets a package from an
unknown benefactor, and his time as a ghost is abruptly over, just
like that. Huh. That leads to a few amusing scenes, and from there
it soon becomes clear that the reason for the episode's existence is
to get Angel and Spike out into Death Valley for a confrontation of
some kind, verbal or physical. Yet the show is reluctant to actually
take us there, subjecting us to other stuff first. There's a general
danger plot that seems to follow no rhyme or reason. And there's a
mystical quest object, introduced in an endless lecture by "Home"'s
Sirk, an annoying and, oh yeah, dull character. Other than the line
"I miss Wesley," strong dislike for that scene, all fourteen hours of
it. A lot of the revelations here are pulled out of the story's ass
to, you guessed it, give Spike and Angel an excuse to fight. That
complaint is, of course, ameliorated somewhat by the eventual
revelation that these things *are* plot bunnies within the story of
ATS, not just outside it. Still not my favorite scenes to watch,
though.
Speaking of the parts with people going crazy, was anyone disappointed
in Spike for immediately turning to Harmony, oft-spurned fuck-buddy
and evil vampire, for his sexual fix? Not very chivalrous of him, but
I can see it from a hungry and horny ghost. The show will have its
hands full continuing to come up with ways to keep him too busy to get
in touch with Buffy ASAP. For the time being, I like the way Spike
and Harm looking into each other's eyes rather than dialogue is what
makes the difference. Harmony's attack is attnention-getting, as is
the way Spike is perfectly willing to step up and defend himself. His
casual reporting afterward is fun: "Had to put her porch lights out.
For the best. I'm sure you understand." "Oh, yeah. You're a real
hero." Later on, Gunn going after Eve works because (like Harmony)
he's got real motivations. She does seem likely to be behind things,
or playing them in some way. One still feels like Fred makes the
right choice under the circumstances to save her and knock out Charles
one more time, a notion which the ending will turn around on the
viewer. The Fred/Eve and Gunn/Eve exchanges that cap off this
particular plot thread accomplish the always neat trick of finding
sympathy for one of our devils. Like Fred, we know, for a fact, that
Eve is evil when it comes down to it. But it's hard to maintain a
relentless onslaught against an enemy who's so aggressively sad. When
Thomson makes it clear that her character is hurting, the viewer can
feel it, and when says that she's not the bad guy, I can almost
believe her. Which is again exactly the frame of mind "Destiny" wants
from us, of course.
Finally we get out to the core of the story, which is an excuse for
our two vampires to settle some of their differences. Spike's sudden
sucker-punch is a strong moment, as is the subsequent battle. Not all
of the dialogue works; I think it goes just slightly overboard with
turning their rivalry into schoolboy one-upsmanship. But the
confluence of the flashbacks with the present day scenes clicks. In
the nineteenth century parts, the nonverbal cues from all three actors
sell William's anguish, and wow, do Angel and Dru seem to be enjoying
themselves. Stating the obvious, Spike is still very much William at
this point, triggered now to start developing his new persona. I'm
still trying to toss over in my head how this disillusionment fits in
with him continuing to hold the same William-esque eternal view of
Drusilla for another century. Ideas, people? But if we can get that
to fit, it otherwise does something important in that it pulls him
partially away from his mother issues, and makes Spike the monster
that Angel created, forever establishing the personal link between
them. Useful tool for a series to have, yes? Again, I like the
timing of the revelations with respect to Spike's level of desire in
his present-day fight; it's simply a well crafted sequence for a
scripting an directing standpoint.
Probably the most memorable part of the episode is, as is typical for
ME, after the fighting's stopped. Angel sees that Spike's won. For a
brief instant, he's suddenly devoid of taunting or selfishness, as he
sees an important moral obligation to keep a good man from committing
to a lifetime of suffering. Boreanaz is perfect here. "That's not a
prize you're holding. It's not a trophy. It's a burden. It's a
cross. One you're gonna have to bear till it burns you to ashes.
Believe me. I know. So ask yourself: is this really the destiny that
was meant for you? Do you even really want it? Or is it that you
just want to take something away from me?" But we're in a Mutant
Enemy show. So now, having set that up, we knock it down with a very
Spike response that's as flippant as possible in the face of a heavy
situation: "bit of both." And on to Mountain Dew. We all may have
seen the anti-climax coming (or at least I did), but the show is
determined to milk it and makes us doubt ourselves with the musical
and visual cues.
This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
- "Saved the world, didn't I?" "Once. Talk to me after you've done
it a couple more times"
- "I fell down... some stairs. Big stairs"
"You mean the fake cup? The make-believe, fairy-tale cup? So what?"
Here's the most effective portrayal so far of the recurring idea that
Angel's been The One for so long that it's become a daily-grind job
that he can't imagine he won't always have. Even if he goes yet
another episode of losing all his important fights. Spike wasn't just
stronger, he had the Eye Of The Tiger. So whether our nominal hero
rediscovers that passion for martyrdom or learns to deal with a
different role in life, things are going to have to change for him. I
have no idea if this is true or not, but I'm going to pretend that
this is also a meta-comment about the hypothetical fan's concern that
Spike would ride in and take over Angel's show.
And as for that ending, I am an acknowledged sucker for the Big
Reveal, so of course I dug this. As mentioned, the viewer doesn't
trust Eve in a general sense, but, like Angel, may have been mislead
into thinking that it's possible to work together with her when things
that baffle the Senior Partners happen. It seriously didn't even
occur to me that she could be running her own game. Now, as with
Drusilla, a quick scan over the DVD box reveals that Lindsey would be
back in the game, so he was one of several guesses for who her
tattooed love boy might be. Although it's great to see him again, his
story seemed pretty complete without dabbling in the Dark Arts
voluntarily anymore, so we'll have to see what the show comes up with.
Alexis Denisof does not appear in "Destiny;" I think he was off
honeymooning at this point. Christian Kane isn't credited at all, for
some reason, which led to a second of "wait, is that really him?"
second-guessing.
So...
One-sentence summary: Sets stages.
AOQ rating: Good
[Season Five so far:
1) "Conviction" - Weak
2) "Just Rewards" - Good
3) "Unleashed" - Good
4) "Hell Bound" - Decent
5) "Life Of The Party" - Weak
6) "The Cautionary Tale Of Numero Cinco" - Decent
7) "Lineage" - Good
8) "Destiny" - Good]
burt...@hotmail.com
the world. Independent confirmation that he, with his amulet ex
machina, was the one who destroyed the Ubervamp army in "Chosen," not
the Slayers, as some people around here have tried to claim.
So the message that "Chosen" sends to women is this - you can't handle
power, you can't be a leader, and if you try, you'd better hope to god
that a man is around to bail your ass out, because otherwise it'll be
a disaster for you and everyone following you.
What a great message, eh?
Arbitrar Of Quality
> And here we get independent confirmation that Spike did, indeed, save
> the world. Independent confirmation that he, with his amulet ex
> machina, was the one who destroyed the Ubervamp army in "Chosen," not
> the Slayers, as some people around here have tried to claim.
It was a collaborative effort. The Slayers fought back the attacking
army, and Spike closed the Hellmouth for good. I think they all
deserve full world-saving credit.
Participating in this discussion one last time, I'm sorry that
"Chosen" wasn't successful in converying what it was going for to
everyone. It's clear to me on that count, at least.
SPIKE: No, you've beat them back. It's for me to do the cleanup.
-AOQ
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> any time we've ever seen them, it's clever to make Angelus originally
> take a liking to this new arrival. His openness to the idea of doing
> certain things with another man almost skips the subtext phase
> entirely, and then "you and me, we're gonna be the best of friends."
> makes for a nice transition to present-day bickering.
they dont bicker because they are like an old married couple
they bicker because they are an old married couple
it looks to me like angelus interest were power games and domination
and not tender sarah maclahan love
angelus was the alpha dog and spike submitted to be part of the gang
once angel got his soul those games lost those appeal
and now with soulful spike as well
the old games are not what they are interested
but the power politics remain
in this episode spike finally challenges angels alpha status and wins
but its at point where neither is truly interested in dominance
> unknown benefactor, and his time as a ghost is abruptly over, just
> like that. Huh. That leads to a few amusing scenes, and from there
i like those scenes
the callback to lies my parents told me and harmonys
- that explains alot
and i see a kind of innocence and frolic
in harmonys agreeing to go off with spike
its nice to see harmony happy
> with him continuing to hold the same William-esque eternal view of
> Drusilla for another century. Ideas, people? But if we can get that
the idea was that drusilla was not particularly interested in willam
she turned him mostly at random to spite angel and darla
but during these events she got the idea
that spike might become her special project
and she began returning his attention at this point
> Alexis Denisof does not appear in "Destiny;" I think he was off
> honeymooning at this point. Christian Kane isn't credited at all, for
> some reason, which led to a second of "wait, is that really him?"
> second-guessing.
i avoided spoilers and didnt have a dvd box
so i didnt know lindsay was back until i saw him in the bed
it seems he was responsible for the cup of eternal torment
but what about the rest? did he have anything to do with amulet?
with the resubstantialization of spike?
did he dig it out of the sunnydale sinkhole and mail it to angel?
is lindsay working with th senior partners?
has eve ever represented the senior partners are did she sneak in?
meow arf meow - they are performing horrible experiments in space
major grubert is watching you - beware the bakalite
impeach the bastard - the airtight garage has you neo
Elisi
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
> ANGEL
> Season Five, Episode 8: "Destiny"
> (or "Okay, can we move on to the fight scene, please?")
> Writers: David Fury and Steven S. DeKnight
> Director: Skip Schoolnik
Now there is an interesting story behind our two writers this week.
Originally this was S. de Knight's episode, but apparently he decided
that Angel should win the big fight (because it as his show). David
Fury objected to this very strongly, saying (quite rightly) that Spike
_had_ to win. They ended up having a big shouting match, culminating
with de Knight yelling "Well then write it yourself!" Which Fury then
did... (parts of it anyway). :)
> This is kinda the part where things start to congeal. Season Five has
> tried to avoid the same kind of serialization that the past two years
> brought us, but as with all Whedon-produced shows, there are long-term
> things going on, and here they're in the forefront. Of course, for
> every answer, there's at least one new question, because that's how
> things work this time of year.
The S5 arc is often called a stealth-arc. Once you've finished you can
look back at apparent standalones and see where they fit and how they
set stuff up that you'd never guess.
> But "Destiny" isn't about moving the plot forward so much as it's
> about making it more personal to our heroes. Anyway, her cat imitation
> entertained me. Given how well Angel and Spike haven't gotten along
> any time we've ever seen them, it's clever to make Angelus originally
> take a liking to this new arrival. His openness to the idea of doing
> certain things with another man almost skips the subtext phase
> entirely, and then "you and me, we're gonna be the best of friends."
> makes for a nice transition to present-day bickering.
Here I have to quote the most excellent Anna:
******
"I promised myself I would stop sharing my mid-episode gut reactions,
but I need an outlet for this, so I bring you:
I am actually crying with laughter here. I've only got as far as the
first thirty seconds and I've had to give up watching because I am in
absolute hysterics, like, roll-on-the-floor, gut-twisting, side-aching
hysterics. I should point out it's not in any way mocking laughter,
simply delirious, loving-every-minute hilarity.
My goodness. What on earth has happened to DB? Laying it on with a
trowel doesn't come close. I can't even begin to imagine what the
performance directions were. "Camp it up a bit" springs to mind, but
whoever directed this was on crack. "Just give it a little bit more,
David. And a bit more. Go on, just a bit more. For me, David, for me."
If I'd known when I was born I'd live to see Angel smouldering over a
wide-eyed Spike in the most laughable Irish accent ever, I'd
have...no, I don't have a logical conclusion to that statement. And
this so has that Something Blue vibe of "these two are enjoying
themselves _far_ too much" which...is kind of disturbing, now I think
about it. ;)
This is high camp with bells on. It's pure pantomime. All it needs is
a bit of audience participation. I can just see it:
Angel: "I don't see any sexual tension"
Audience: "It's BEHIND you!"
Perhaps it should be Dru saying the Angel line, now I come to think
about it. ;) Oh, this is simultaneously the most ridiculous and most
wonderful thing I've seen in ages. The acting is terrible. And
awesome. And I'm loving every minute.
Still, it's subtext, not text, by my definition. It's just not so much
"bring your own subtext" as "Subtext. Spoon. Lap it up."
Also, not wanting to be petty, but is it just me or did William lose
his upper class English accent very quickly after being turned? Mind
you, two minutes with Dru and I'm sure anyone would lose sight of
their usual accent. ;)"
the_royal_anna
************
So, yeah, I love it too! And viewing this in the context of
(human)William who was obviously always picked upon by his peers, we
can almost see him realising that finally he might be able to be on
equal footing with someone. Poor lil' Willy...
> Too bad Darla couldn't make it. Granted she's not the point of this
> exercise, but neither is some of the other stuff in the show. This is
> used as a transition to mention that "Destiny" has some very dull
> stretches, particularly early on. Spike gets a package from an
> unknown benefactor, and his time as a ghost is abruptly over, just
> like that. Huh.
Wonderful, isn't? It's been built up as something so big and
impossible and then *poof* he's solid! Also did you notice these bit
of dialogue:
WILLIAM (angrily yanks his sizzling hand away from Angelus) "Touch me
again-"
SPIKE: "I can feel." (touches Angel's chest)
ANGEL: "Hey. Stop touching me." (pushes Spike's hand away)
It's a veeeeeery well written episode! :)
> That leads to a few amusing scenes, and from there
> it soon becomes clear that the reason for the episode's existence is
> to get Angel and Spike out into Death Valley for a confrontation of
> some kind, verbal or physical.
120 years of frustration unleashed all at once...
> Yet the show is reluctant to actually
> take us there, subjecting us to other stuff first. There's a general
> danger plot that seems to follow no rhyme or reason. And there's a
> mystical quest object, introduced in an endless lecture by "Home"'s
> Sirk, an annoying and, oh yeah, dull character. Other than the line
> "I miss Wesley," strong dislike for that scene, all fourteen hours of
> it.
I quite like it. It has a lot of good quotes:
SIRK: "It's metaphor. Please tell me I don't have to explain metaphor
to you people."
(Which would be my sic if I had one.)
> Speaking of the parts with people going crazy, was anyone disappointed
> in Spike for immediately turning to Harmony, oft-spurned fuck-buddy
> and evil vampire, for his sexual fix? Not very chivalrous of him, but
> I can see it from a hungry and horny ghost.
*That* was apparently Joss' idea. Lay the blame at his feet! _But_ it
does tie in very well with the theme of the episode:
HARMONY: "I'm not! Not yours!"
SPIKE: "Yeah, right. Not mine."
HARMONY: "Using me. Making me think... feel...like yours."
ANGEL: You took my Viper.
SPIKE: My Viper now, mate. Possession's 9/10s. Oughta know that,
running a law firm and such.
WILLIAM: Why did you...? You knew. You knew she was mine.
ANGELUS: Did I? [...] There's no belonging or deserving anymore. You
can take what you want, have what you want... but nothing is yours.
ANGEL: Or is it that you just want to take something away from me?
The whole episode is full of reference to things being 'yours' or
'mine'. But can a prophecy *belong* to someone? Can a destiny? And
what _does_ Spike really want?
Of course it also ties in with this bit from 'Just Rewards':
SPIKE: You can't keep her from me.
ANGEL: She's not mine to keep... or yours.
SPIKE: Says you. You got no idea what we had.
ANGEL: You never had her.
SPIKE: More than you, you poncy-
Two vampires, both alike in dignity...
> When
> Thomson makes it clear that her character is hurting, the viewer can
> feel it, and when says that she's not the bad guy, I can almost
> believe her. Which is again exactly the frame of mind "Destiny" wants
> from us, of course.
And another reason Lilah wouldn't have worked at all.
> Finally we get out to the core of the story, which is an excuse for
> our two vampires to settle some of their differences. Spike's sudden
> sucker-punch is a strong moment, as is the subsequent battle. Not all
> of the dialogue works; I think it goes just slightly overboard with
> turning their rivalry into schoolboy one-upsmanship.
Now I'm going to say that the scene it parallels the most is the Angel/
Connor confrontation in 'Home'. Because oh boy does Spike have father
issues (to rival Welsey's in the last ep - and notice how close he
came to repeating Wesley's action).
But the thing is - Spike is the anti-Connor. Angel's 'crime' as
concerns Connor was losing him. He was stolen and used and abused
throughout his 18 years - by Holtz, by Evil!Cordy, by Jasmine. _He_
blames Angel, and _Angel_ blames Angel:
Angel: "I mean, you were stuck in a - hell dimension. - Connor - I'm
so sorry. I tried to get you back. I did. I tried to come after you. I
would have done anything. I just... I just... I couldn't find a way
in."
Connor: "I found a way out."
'A New World'
Connor: "You tried to love me. At least I think you did."
Angel: "I still do."
Connor: "But not enough to hang on, dad. You let him take me. You let
him get me. You let him get me."
'Home'
But Spike... Spike was to a great extent Angelus's creation. For 18
years (and OMG the parallels! This is fabulous!) he was under
Angelus's tutelage:
Spike: "You were my sire, man. My Yoda!"
'School Hard'
And Angel acknowledges this:
Angel: "I taught you to always guard your perimeter. Tsk, tsk, tsk.
You
should have someone out there."
Spike: "I did. I'm surrounded by idiots."
He also knows what kind of monster he created:
Giles: "Well, he can't be any worse than any other creature you've
faced."
Angel: "He's worse. Once he starts something he doesn't stop until
everything in his path is dead."
But... Angel does not feel responsible for Spike in the same way,
although he was the one doing the damage. Spike isn't a lost little
boy. And yet Angel still has to deal with the resentment:
Spike: Come on, hero. Tell me more. Teach me what it means. And I'll
tell you why you can't stand the bloody sight of me.
Angel: Tell it to your therapist.
Spike: 'Cause every time you look at me... you see all the dirty
little things I've done, all the lives I've taken... because of you!
Drusilla sired me... but you... you made me a monster.
'Destiny'
So we see Spike blaming Angel for who he is - just like Connor.
Through neglect or teaching, they both think that Angel created them.
But - then they go different paths:
Connor: I can't feel anything. I guess I really _am_ your son...
'cause I'm dead, too.
'Home'
Angel: I didn't make you, Spike. I just opened up the door... and let
the real you out.
Spike: You never knew the real me! Too busy trying to see your own
reflection... praying there was someone as disgusting as you in the
world, so you could stand to live with yourself. Take a long look,
hero. I'm _nothing_ like you!
'Destiny'
To quote kita0610:
'From Drusilla's affections to Buffy's, from fighting on the side of
good to gaining a soul, Spike, since Day One, has followed in
"Daddy's" footsteps. And has resented the hell out of it.'
And of course Angel resents him right back. As I said before - right
career, wrong son. And where Angel is treading on eggshells when it
comes to Connor, he is using a sledgehammer when it comes to Spike.
Which ain't pretty, but is probably quite healthy.
> But the
> confluence of the flashbacks with the present day scenes clicks. In
> the nineteenth century parts, the nonverbal cues from all three actors
> sell William's anguish, and wow, do Angel and Dru seem to be enjoying
> themselves. Stating the obvious, Spike is still very much William at
> this point, triggered now to start developing his new persona. I'm
> still trying to toss over in my head how this disillusionment fits in
> with him continuing to hold the same William-esque eternal view of
> Drusilla for another century. Ideas, people?
He's very persistent. And it doesn't look like he accepts what Angelus
says, does it? He spends the next 20 years trying to prove Angelus
wrong. And then of course Angelus goes away.
> But if we can get that
> to fit, it otherwise does something important in that it pulls him
> partially away from his mother issues, and makes Spike the monster
> that Angel created, forever establishing the personal link between
> them. Useful tool for a series to have, yes? Again, I like the
> timing of the revelations with respect to Spike's level of desire in
> his present-day fight; it's simply a well crafted sequence for a
> scripting an directing standpoint.
Another interesting point is how the two of them make no distinction
between past and present selves. It's 'you' and 'me' - and considering
how much Angel tries to distance himself from his later ego when
around his friends, that is very interesting. Take this line f.ex.:
ANGEL
Little more complicated than that. But you always were a bit simple...
Willy.
That's pure Angelus. As is:
ANGEL
No. You're less. That's why Buffy never really loved you: Because you
weren't me.
Angel can integrate his dark side perfectly well when he wants to...
> Probably the most memorable part of the episode is, as is typical for
> ME, after the fighting's stopped. Angel sees that Spike's won. For a
> brief instant, he's suddenly devoid of taunting or selfishness, as he
> sees an important moral obligation to keep a good man from committing
> to a lifetime of suffering. Boreanaz is perfect here. "That's not a
> prize you're holding. It's not a trophy. It's a burden. It's a
> cross. One you're gonna have to bear till it burns you to ashes.
> Believe me. I know. So ask yourself: is this really the destiny that
> was meant for you? Do you even really want it? Or is it that you
> just want to take something away from me?" But we're in a Mutant
> Enemy show. So now, having set that up, we knock it down with a very
> Spike response that's as flippant as possible in the face of a heavy
> situation: "bit of both." And on to Mountain Dew. We all may have
> seen the anti-climax coming (or at least I did), but the show is
> determined to milk it and makes us doubt ourselves with the musical
> and visual cues.
Lovely, lovely scene. And also the basis for one of my favourite
icons:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/elisi/spike-prize.gif
> "You mean the fake cup? The make-believe, fairy-tale cup? So what?"
> Here's the most effective portrayal so far of the recurring idea that
> Angel's been The One for so long that it's become a daily-grind job
> that he can't imagine he won't always have. Even if he goes yet
> another episode of losing all his important fights. Spike wasn't just
> stronger, he had the Eye Of The Tiger.
*Love* how you put that! :)
Here we see the lack of Wesley - because Gunn doesn't really get it.
Wesley would have.
ANGEL: No, you don't... He won the fight, Gunn... for the first time.
Doesn't matter if the cup is real or not. In the end, he... Spike was
stronger. He wanted it more.
And here we get another reason why I love 'Hellbound':
SPIKE: Reality bends to desire. That was it, right? That's why I could
touch Fred, write your name in the glass. All I had to do was want it
bad enough.
And of course (as always) FFL:
SPIKE: Sod off! Come on. When was the last time you unleashed it? All
out fight in a mob, back against the wall, nothing but fists and
fangs? Don't you ever get tired of fights you know you're going to
win?
That's Spike - the slayer of Slayers. The vampire who won back his
soul. Because he gave his all, without knowing if he was going to win.
(Have you seen Gattaca? The main character wins over his brother in
the end during a re-match of their childhood swimming competition -
explaining that he didn't save anything for the swim back. That's
Spike. Reality bends to desire.)
> So whether our nominal hero
> rediscovers that passion for martyrdom or learns to deal with a
> different role in life, things are going to have to change for him. I
> have no idea if this is true or not, but I'm going to pretend that
> this is also a meta-comment about the hypothetical fan's concern that
> Spike would ride in and take over Angel's show.
Exactly. And also shows why Spike is perfect this season - Angel is
losing his mission, his drive, and suddenly here's someone who can do
everything he can. It's like Groo - but magnified a million.
> And as for that ending, I am an acknowledged sucker for the Big
> Reveal, so of course I dug this. As mentioned, the viewer doesn't
> trust Eve in a general sense, but, like Angel, may have been mislead
> into thinking that it's possible to work together with her when things
> that baffle the Senior Partners happen. It seriously didn't even
> occur to me that she could be running her own game. Now, as with
> Drusilla, a quick scan over the DVD box reveals that Lindsey would be
> back in the game, so he was one of several guesses for who her
> tattooed love boy might be. Although it's great to see him again, his
> story seemed pretty complete without dabbling in the Dark Arts
> voluntarily anymore, so we'll have to see what the show comes up with.
Lindsey! Squee! (And reason #753 why Lilah would have been
impossible!)
> Christian Kane isn't credited at all, for
> some reason, which led to a second of "wait, is that really him?"
> second-guessing.
Which is what they wanted! :)
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Sets stages.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
Excellent for me. The fight alone would do that, even if the rest had
been pants.
And that's all I have time for. *sigh* I could say *so* much more...
Oh and yhlee on Lineage: http://yhlee.livejournal.com/
298778.html#cutid1
And Destiny: http://yhlee.livejournal.com/299114.html#cutid1
burt...@hotmail.com
wrote:
And, again, if all Spike did was cleanup, he wouldn't get credit from
higher powers for saving the world.
I can sort of see being fuzzy about what happened in "Chosen" (though
it was always perfectly clear to me - the Slayers only killed 50 or so
Ubervamps out of thousands), but here, it's clear and unambiguous.
Spike saved the world. Therefore, Spike destroyed the Ubervamp army.
Not the Slayers.
Elisi
_Buffy_ gave him the amulet. She could have used it herself - or given
it to Faith. And in both cases we would have had a woman saving the
world. The point isn't who wore it, the point is that the amulet was
clearly part of their plan.
Now go back three years to Primeval. The Scoobies cast their big
spell, and once finished were saved from death-by-Big-Foot's-cousin by
Spike who just happened to be there. _But_ - if they had at that point
been friends with Spike, and had asked him _specifically_ to guard the
door, that would have been a different story.
In 'Chosen' Spike _was_ part of the plan. The Slayers fought long
enough for the amulet to kick in, and then Spike could do the rest. In
the original script you can see much more clearly how the amulet is
connected to the Slayers - when Buffy gets stabbed, Spike doubles over
in pain. When she gets back up, the amulet activates. I wish Joss had
shown that better on screen.
If you want to credit someone other than Buffy&Co with saving the
world, that honour goes to W&H, since the amulet came from them. Which
just goes to show that my enemies' enemy is my friend! ;)
(Harmony) Watcher
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1171220245.4...@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> ANGEL
> Season Five, Episode 8: "Destiny"
> (or "Okay, can we move on to the fight scene, please?")
> Writers: David Fury and Steven S. DeKnight
> Director: Skip Schoolnik
>
> In
> the nineteenth century parts, the nonverbal cues from all three actors
> sell William's anguish, and wow, do Angel and Dru seem to be enjoying
> themselves. Stating the obvious, Spike is still very much William at
> this point, triggered now to start developing his new persona. I'm
> still trying to toss over in my head how this disillusionment fits in
> with him continuing to hold the same William-esque eternal view of
> Drusilla for another century. Ideas, people?
>
>
--
==Harmony Watcher==
(Harmony) Watcher
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1171229331....@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
world" in BtVS S7 "Chosen".
Ohssl jvyyvatyl hfrq n qrivpr juvpu pnzr sebz Rivy Vap. gb fnir gur jbeyq va
"Pubfra". Gung vf n cbvag bs qrcnegher shyy bs fgbel-gryyvat cbgragvny. Sbe
zr vg jbhyq or Ohssl & pbzcnal ntnvafg J&U va na ncbpnylgvp rirag (juvpu V
unq ubcrq jnf cneg bs jung NgF frevrf svanyr jnf nyy nobhg). V jbhyq unir
vzntvarq gung Natry jnf jbexvat sbe Ohssl va vaqhpvat gur ncbpnylcfr va F5
bs NgF. Bgurejvfr ur jnf ybbavre guna Qeh.
Fbzrbar fcbvy zr ba jung F8 Ohssl (va gur pbzvpf) npghnyyl fnlf.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
Apteryx
news:1171220245.4...@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> exercise, but neither is some of the other stuff in the show. This is
> used as a transition to mention that "Destiny" has some very dull
> stretches, particularly early on. Spike gets a package from an
> unknown benefactor, and his time as a ghost is abruptly over, just
> like that. Huh.
On the one hand its absurd that after several epsiodes of ghost Spike taking
baby steps towards connecting with the world, a fairy godmother suddenly
appears and waves her wand. On the other hand, at the rate of progress ghost
Spike was making, the season would have been over before they could have
dropped his incorporealness.
> take us there, subjecting us to other stuff first. There's a general
> danger plot that seems to follow no rhyme or reason. And there's a
> mystical quest object, introduced in an endless lecture by "Home"'s
> Sirk, an annoying and, oh yeah, dull character. Other than the line
> "I miss Wesley," strong dislike for that scene, all fourteen hours of
> it. A lot of the revelations here are pulled out of the story's ass
> to, you guessed it, give Spike and Angel an excuse to fight. That
> complaint is, of course, ameliorated somewhat by the eventual
> revelation that these things *are* plot bunnies within the story of
> ATS, not just outside it.
Not for me. The "new translation" invented by Sirk (just after he has
poo-pooed the notion of working with translations) is so absurd that it can
only be explained by the contempt he has for their intelligence (without
Wesley), and the fact that they buy it sadly shows how justified that
contempt is - "And the fat lady will sing no more"? I miss Wesley too
(apparently busy with Willow when this episode was filmed).
> Speaking of the parts with people going crazy, was anyone disappointed
> in Spike for immediately turning to Harmony, oft-spurned fuck-buddy
> and evil vampire, for his sexual fix?
Not me. Spike may be no longer Evil (in the sense of siding with the forces
of), but he is still evil. Very Spike
>
> Finally we get out to the core of the story, which is an excuse for
> our two vampires to settle some of their differences. Spike's sudden
> sucker-punch is a strong moment, as is the subsequent battle. Not all
> of the dialogue works; I think it goes just slightly overboard with
> turning their rivalry into schoolboy one-upsmanship.
Way overboard for me. As far overboard as Angel at the end of Tomorrow. I'm
never a fan for these occaisions when the characters decide to mix their
fight with a bit of a chat about life, and their feelings, and the price of
fish in Equador, but this is perhaps the worst example in the Buffyverse.
Slow and boring.
>
> Probably the most memorable part of the episode is, as is typical for
> ME, after the fighting's stopped. Angel sees that Spike's won. For a
> brief instant, he's suddenly devoid of taunting or selfishness, as he
> sees an important moral obligation to keep a good man from committing
> to a lifetime of suffering.
I don't know that he's thinking of Spike there. That's his lifetime of
suffering that Spike is pinching :)
> situation: "bit of both." And on to Mountain Dew. We all may have
> seen the anti-climax coming (or at least I did), but the show is
> determined to milk it and makes us doubt ourselves with the musical
> and visual cues.
After all the more obvious clues they missed, why did the fact that it was
Mountain Dew give it away? If Spike was to drink from the cup, it had to
contain some liquid. Why not Mountain Dew? Eternally mystically refreshed of
course.
> Here's the most effective portrayal so far of the recurring idea that
> Angel's been The One for so long that it's become a daily-grind job
> that he can't imagine he won't always have. Even if he goes yet
> another episode of losing all his important fights. Spike wasn't just
> stronger, he had the Eye Of The Tiger. So whether our nominal hero
> rediscovers that passion for martyrdom or learns to deal with a
> different role in life, things are going to have to change for him.
Its a very important concept, and vital for the show.
>
> And as for that ending, I am an acknowledged sucker for the Big
> Reveal, so of course I dug this. As mentioned, the viewer doesn't
> trust Eve in a general sense, but, like Angel, may have been mislead
> into thinking that it's possible to work together with her when things
> that baffle the Senior Partners happen. It seriously didn't even
> occur to me that she could be running her own game. Now, as with
> Drusilla, a quick scan over the DVD box reveals that Lindsey would be
> back in the game, so he was one of several guesses for who her
> tattooed love boy might be. Although it's great to see him again, his
> story seemed pretty complete without dabbling in the Dark Arts
> voluntarily anymore, so we'll have to see what the show comes up with.
Great reveal. As to Lindsey's motives for returning, the fact that Eve
reports to him that Spike didn't kill Angel but they did beat each other up
suggests that revenge on Angel may be a part of it at least. And also
suggests another Eve/Lilah similarity, that Eve may not fully share the SP's
desire to keep Angel alive until their apocalypse.
>
> One-sentence summary: Sets stages.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
It does set stages. It does important stuff for the season. But so much of
it is OTT, and the plot relies so much on the characters' stupidity that I'd
only call it Decent. It's my 63rd favourite AtS episode, 19th best in season
5.
--
Apteryx
alphakitten
For the 948th time, it was only on account of the slayer army that Spike
got to do the clean up. Like AoQ said, it was collaborative, clearly and
unambiguously so.
~Angel
burt...@hotmail.com
That's not clear at all. There's no indication anywhere that Buffy
knew what the amulet was going to do, or what it would take to
activate it. In fact, Spike seems surprised when the amulet goes off.
> Now go back three years to Primeval. The Scoobies cast their big
> spell, and once finished were saved from death-by-Big-Foot's-cousin by
> Spike who just happened to be there. _But_ - if they had at that point
> been friends with Spike, and had asked him _specifically_ to guard the
> door, that would have been a different story.
>
> In 'Chosen' Spike _was_ part of the plan. The Slayers fought long
> enough for the amulet to kick in, and then Spike could do the rest. In
> the original script you can see much more clearly how the amulet is
> connected to the Slayers - when Buffy gets stabbed, Spike doubles over
> in pain. When she gets back up, the amulet activates. I wish Joss had
> shown that better on screen.
Well, we can wish all we like, but what's on screen is what's on
screen. And what's on screen in "Chosen" is Buffy leading a bunch of
Slayers into a hopeless battle, getting in over her head, and being
bailed out by Spike and his amulet ex machina. And that's confirmed
here when it's declared from on high that Spike saved the world.
burt...@hotmail.com
For the 949th time, it was clearly and unambiguously *not*
collaborative in any way. And that's confirmed yet again here - Eve
doesn't say that Spike *helped* save the world, she says he *saved*
the world. There's nothing here about any collaborative effort,
because there wasn't one - Buffy and all the other Slayers were going
to die until Spike and the amulet won the fight for them.
alphakitten
Except for the part where the slayer army are what keeps Spike alive
long enough for the clean up to begin. Collaborative, see?
~Angel
Elisi
Um, did you miss this part?
SPIKE
(looking at the amulet worn around his neck) Not to be a buzzkill,
love, but my fabulous accessory isn't exactly tingling with power.
BUFFY
(psyching herself up as she looks around slack-jawed) I'm not worried.
SPIKE
I'm getting zero juice here, and I look like Elizabeth Taylor.
FAITH
Cheer up, Liz. Willow's big spell doesn't work, it won't matter what
you wear.
If he - and they - weren't expecting it to do *anything* - then why
are they talking (and being worried!) about it doing nothing? They
expected it to do *something*, but knew they needed the army of
Slayers as well. It couldn't be clearer.
jil...@hotmail.com
hoops, to keep the Spoiler assholes from babbling on the net about
Lindsey being back.
I remember a few things, like that when Lorne talked about sexual
tension during his episode, I'd never perceived any such thing. Angel
wasn't interested or the slightest bit attracted to Eve, and Eve's
remarks and attitude always seemed to me to be clinical along the line
of testing to see how he'd react.
I also concluded that the reason they sent the spell to bring Spike
back was because they were afraid he'd corporalize by himself before
long and they needed him to believe he couldn't. As for there being
two vampires with a soul who are Champions suddenly throwing reality
out of whack? That read like complete fiction even in the Buffyverse
(and consider the source). I think Eve did a spell to cause that
because she says so, and it wasn't caused by Spike's changes.
And as for the Spike/Harmony sex-thing... well, when Angel's heart
started beating after Gwen electricuted him, wasn't the first thing he
did grab her and kiss her? So, this certainly has precedent.
Elisi
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1171220245.4...@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Evil? I agree that it's very Spike, but it's not evil - just male. ("I
tend to follow my blood, which doesn't exactly rush in the direction
of my brain...") Not nice, and he (still) has no respect for Harmony,
but I wouldn't call it evil. If he was evil, he'd have done it purely
to hurt her - as it stands, he was horny and she was there. Selfish
and thoughtless certainly. (Also not all _that_ different from how
Buffy used him in S6...)
Also I'm sorry that you can't see the beauty of the big fight.
jil...@hotmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Do you EVER consider the source?
William George Ferguson
wrote:
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>
>
>ANGEL
>Season Five, Episode 8: "Destiny"
>(or "Okay, can we move on to the fight scene, please?")
>Writers: David Fury and Steven S. DeKnight
>Director: Skip Schoolnik
[just skipping down to the end]
>
>And as for that ending, I am an acknowledged sucker for the Big
>Reveal, so of course I dug this. As mentioned, the viewer doesn't
>trust Eve in a general sense, but, like Angel, may have been mislead
>into thinking that it's possible to work together with her when things
>that baffle the Senior Partners happen. It seriously didn't even
>occur to me that she could be running her own game. Now, as with
>Drusilla, a quick scan over the DVD box reveals that Lindsey would be
>back in the game, so he was one of several guesses for who her
>tattooed love boy might be. Although it's great to see him again, his
>story seemed pretty complete without dabbling in the Dark Arts
>voluntarily anymore, so we'll have to see what the show comes up with.
Lindsey's appearance in this episode was possibly the best kept spoiler
secret in the history of either series. The scene at the end was shot on a
separate soundstage, with minimal crew, and the only actor that knew about
Kane appearing was Thompson, even after the shooting was completed for the
episode.
Whedon had tried for this sort of 'gotcha' before, but word would always
get out. In this case, nobody in fandom saw it coming, and not a single
spoiler post was made, until some people saw the wild feed the morning the
show was scheduled.
>Alexis Denisof does not appear in "Destiny;" I think he was off
>honeymooning at this point. Christian Kane isn't credited at all, for
>some reason, which led to a second of "wait, is that really him?"
>second-guessing.
Prezactly. Alexis and Alyson were off in Palm Springs while this ep was
being shot.
--
"Oh Buffy, you really do need to have
every square inch of your ass kicked."
- Willow Rosenberg
Ken from Chicago
"(Harmony) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote in message
news:OyNzh.939186$5R2.211613@pd7urf3no...
More than that. Spike is unique in the Buffyverse in having so much of his
humanity survive the siring process.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"Apteryx" <apt...@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
news:eqoevv$45h$1...@aioe.org...
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1171220245.4...@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>> threads.
>>
>>
>> Too bad Darla couldn't make it. Granted she's not the point of this
>> exercise, but neither is some of the other stuff in the show. This is
>> used as a transition to mention that "Destiny" has some very dull
>> stretches, particularly early on. Spike gets a package from an
>> unknown benefactor, and his time as a ghost is abruptly over, just
>> like that. Huh.
>
> On the one hand its absurd that after several epsiodes of ghost Spike
> taking baby steps towards connecting with the world, a fairy godmother
> suddenly appears and waves her wand. On the other hand, at the rate of
> progress ghost Spike was making, the season would have been over before
> they could have dropped his incorporealness.
Fred ALREADY found a cure. She just would have had to wait another quarter
or a year before getting the budget to recreate the cure--and using the rare
legendary item Wes mentioned before Gunn stepped in and talked to the Top
Cat.
>> take us there, subjecting us to other stuff first. There's a general
>> danger plot that seems to follow no rhyme or reason. And there's a
>> mystical quest object, introduced in an endless lecture by "Home"'s
>> Sirk, an annoying and, oh yeah, dull character. Other than the line
>> "I miss Wesley," strong dislike for that scene, all fourteen hours of
>> it. A lot of the revelations here are pulled out of the story's ass
>> to, you guessed it, give Spike and Angel an excuse to fight. That
>> complaint is, of course, ameliorated somewhat by the eventual
>> revelation that these things *are* plot bunnies within the story of
>> ATS, not just outside it.
>
> Not for me. The "new translation" invented by Sirk (just after he has
> poo-pooed the notion of working with translations) is so absurd that it
> can only be explained by the contempt he has for their intelligence
> (without Wesley), and the fact that they buy it sadly shows how justified
> that
As opposed the frat demon that was "actual size"?
> contempt is - "And the fat lady will sing no more"? I miss Wesley too
> (apparently busy with Willow when this episode was filmed).
Wes and Fred were "on a break".
>> Speaking of the parts with people going crazy, was anyone disappointed
>> in Spike for immediately turning to Harmony, oft-spurned fuck-buddy
>> and evil vampire, for his sexual fix?
>
> Not me. Spike may be no longer Evil (in the sense of siding with the
> forces of), but he is still evil. Very Spike
Spike and Buffy were "on a break".
Plus Spike was respecting Buffy's wish to "bake".
>> Finally we get out to the core of the story, which is an excuse for
>> our two vampires to settle some of their differences. Spike's sudden
>> sucker-punch is a strong moment, as is the subsequent battle. Not all
>> of the dialogue works; I think it goes just slightly overboard with
>> turning their rivalry into schoolboy one-upsmanship.
>
> Way overboard for me. As far overboard as Angel at the end of Tomorrow.
> I'm never a fan for these occaisions when the characters decide to mix
> their fight with a bit of a chat about life, and their feelings, and the
> price of fish in Equador, but this is perhaps the worst example in the
> Buffyverse. Slow and boring.
I suspect you didn't care for those Spidey comics where he chats up a storm
during fights.
>> Probably the most memorable part of the episode is, as is typical for
>> ME, after the fighting's stopped. Angel sees that Spike's won. For a
>> brief instant, he's suddenly devoid of taunting or selfishness, as he
>> sees an important moral obligation to keep a good man from committing
>> to a lifetime of suffering.
>
> I don't know that he's thinking of Spike there. That's his lifetime of
> suffering that Spike is pinching :)
Captain Forehead's worried about Captain Peroxide crashing his little
"club".
>> situation: "bit of both." And on to Mountain Dew. We all may have
>> seen the anti-climax coming (or at least I did), but the show is
>> determined to milk it and makes us doubt ourselves with the musical
>> and visual cues.
>
> After all the more obvious clues they missed, why did the fact that it was
> Mountain Dew give it away? If Spike was to drink from the cup, it had to
> contain some liquid. Why not Mountain Dew? Eternally mystically refreshed
> of course.
Obviously it should have been Root Beer.
>> Here's the most effective portrayal so far of the recurring idea that
>> Angel's been The One for so long that it's become a daily-grind job
>> that he can't imagine he won't always have. Even if he goes yet
>> another episode of losing all his important fights. Spike wasn't just
>> stronger, he had the Eye Of The Tiger. So whether our nominal hero
>> rediscovers that passion for martyrdom or learns to deal with a
>> different role in life, things are going to have to change for him.
>
> Its a very important concept, and vital for the show.
Spike was always better, morally, than Angel / Angelus / Liam. Being in a
beast belly didn't help.
>> And as for that ending, I am an acknowledged sucker for the Big
>> Reveal, so of course I dug this. As mentioned, the viewer doesn't
>> trust Eve in a general sense, but, like Angel, may have been mislead
>> into thinking that it's possible to work together with her when things
>> that baffle the Senior Partners happen. It seriously didn't even
>> occur to me that she could be running her own game. Now, as with
>> Drusilla, a quick scan over the DVD box reveals that Lindsey would be
>> back in the game, so he was one of several guesses for who her
>> tattooed love boy might be. Although it's great to see him again, his
>> story seemed pretty complete without dabbling in the Dark Arts
>> voluntarily anymore, so we'll have to see what the show comes up with.
>
> Great reveal. As to Lindsey's motives for returning, the fact that Eve
> reports to him that Spike didn't kill Angel but they did beat each other
> up suggests that revenge on Angel may be a part of it at least. And also
> suggests another Eve/Lilah similarity, that Eve may not fully share the
> SP's desire to keep Angel alive until their apocalypse.
Imagine if Lilah had stayed this season ....
>> One-sentence summary: Sets stages.
>>
>> AOQ rating: Good
>
> It does set stages. It does important stuff for the season. But so much of
> it is OTT, and the plot relies so much on the characters' stupidity that
> I'd only call it Decent. It's my 63rd favourite AtS episode, 19th best in
> season 5.
>
> --
> Apteryx
What stupidity? Weirdness abounds in the Buffyverse. It's no more illogical
than demon eggs or singing oracle demons.
-- Ken from Chicago
drifter
>> doesn't say that Spike *helped* save the world, she says he *saved*
>> the world. There's nothing here about any collaborative effort,
>> because there wasn't one - Buffy and all the other Slayers were going
>> to die until Spike and the amulet won the fight for them.
>
> long enough for the clean up to begin. Collaborative, see?
Whattsamatter? You don't trust Eve's word? She's been a paragon of
virtue all season.
Jeez, just because she's EVIL...you accuse her of LYING?
--
Kel
"Don't talk unless you can improve the silence."
Elisi
Indeed:
FRED: What did he mean, "saving the world"?
ANGEL: Oh, that-well-Buffy did most of the work. Well, he helped, but-
NAQERJ: Hu, lrnu. Hz... Jr-jr fnirq gur jbeyq gbtrgure. V zrna, Ohssl
urycrq, ohg... vg jnf zbfgyl hf.
*g*
Elisi
> Not for me. The "new translation" invented by Sirk (just after he has
> poo-pooed the notion of working with translations)
Um... how else is he going to read anything, if it's not translated?
Also the entire staff of W&H is evil - and they can't afford to be
mistrustful of *everything* or nothing would get done.
> Way overboard for me. As far overboard as Angel at the end of Tomorrow. I'm
> never a fan for these occaisions when the characters decide to mix their
> fight with a bit of a chat about life, and their feelings, and the price of
> fish in Equador, but this is perhaps the worst example in the Buffyverse.
> Slow and boring.
You really are a very strange creature. This is quite possibly the
_best_ fight of the Buffy verse (the one in 'Smashed' would probably
come second). And you seem to have it completely the wrong way round.
The physical fight is not the important part of it - they fight with
fists and fangs because they're vampires and violent creatures. But
the battle is lost and won with words and willpower. *That's* where
the real fighting is happening (remember The Trial?). Watch the
flashback at the beginning again - the scene where Angelus holds his
hand out into the sunlight. _That's_ the beginning for everything, and
there are no blows traded. They're not fighting for the cup as such -
they're fighting for who gets to be on top - who's Alpha Male. The
winner of course claims all - like Angelus always claimed Dru in times
past (see S2 of BtVS for how he continued to play that card). Angelus
didn't become known as The Worst Vampire on record because he *killed*
people - but because he tormented them. He was an artist, destroying
people. And he spent 20 years working on Spike. That's the background
- that's where they're coming from. It's a war of words and willpower
- and Spike wins. Reality bends to desire - and Spike wanted it more.
It's like Buffy winning by out-determining her enemies.
The physical fight is beautifully choreographed and cool. But the
words they sling at each other cut far, far deeper than any blows.
Except... Angel's words do not cut as deep as Spike's.
(Sorry if I'm repeating myself, but I just never thought this had to
be explained.)
Jeff Jacoby
Of course, Eve is playing a part in a charade, in a
deliberate and calculated attempt to setup a confrontation,
so what she says carries little weight.
Jeff
(Harmony) Watcher
> news:1171220245.4...@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> After all the more obvious clues they missed, why did the fact that it was
> Mountain Dew give it away? If Spike was to drink from the cup, it had to
> contain some liquid. Why not Mountain Dew? Eternally mystically refreshed
of
> course.
>
Seriously, I presume that the cup must have been eons older than Mountain
Dew, so you're thinking that whoever was responsible for the cup's welfare
liked Mountain Dew. Come to think of it, it could have been worse; think
(gross) demon urine.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
burt...@hotmail.com
I'm talking about when it activates. He looks surprised *then.*
There's no indication that they knew what the amulet was going to do.
And you know what? Even if they did, it's irrelevant. It was still
Spike and the amulet that incinerated the entire Ubervamp army. The
Slayers were irrelevant.
burt...@hotmail.com
And the big, gaping tear in the balance of the universe? I suppose she
staged that, too?
burt...@hotmail.com
Except for the part where the Slayer army wasn't needed at all.
Again, there's no mention of Spike *helping* to save the world as part
of a collaborative effort. What's said here is that Spike saved the
world. Period. It's said multiple times and it's never challenged.
burt...@hotmail.com
The source, in this case, is the universe itself.
burt...@hotmail.com
Of course, there's a lot more going on here than just Eve telling them
something. The universe is going completely out of whack here. Oh, but
wait - I suppose the universe itself was lying, too?
Wouter Valentijn
So, Eve speaks for the entire universe?
--
Wouter Valentijn
www.wouter.cc
www.nksf.nl
http://www.nksf.scifics.com/Nom20062007.html
www.zeppodunsel.nl
liam=mail
"Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!"
Order given by David Farragut at the Battle of Mobile Bay
Stephen Tempest
>And the big, gaping tear in the balance of the universe? I suppose she
>staged that, too?
Yes of course she did. Didn't you watch the episode? The whole thing
was a fake-out from start to end.
"You know, funny thing about throwing the universe out of whack... not
as fun as it sounds. On the plus side, they totally fell for the cup
of torment thing. Just like you thought they would."
Some magical effect hits the LA office of Wolfram & Hart (funny how a
"big, gaping tear in the balance of the universe" only affects a
single building, huh?). Angel and Spike go on a wild goose chase for a
cup full of Mountain Dew and nearly kill each other. When they get
back, both still alive, the magical effects miraculously stop and Eve
spins a line about how "the Senior Partners stepped in". Yeah, right.
Lindsey and Eve pulled a con job. "Right under the Senior Partners'
noses", as she says herself... and Angel and Spike fell for it. So,
apparently, did you...
Stephen
Jeff Jacoby
>
> "Apteryx" <apt...@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:eqoevv$45h$1...@aioe.org...
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1171220245.4...@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> After all the more obvious clues they missed, why did the fact that it was
>> Mountain Dew give it away? If Spike was to drink from the cup, it had to
>> contain some liquid. Why not Mountain Dew? Eternally mystically refreshed
> of
>> course.
>>
> That's because 7UP tastes better than Mountain Dew.
How do you know it's not "Mountain Dew", the moonshine?
(Which is probably a lot more in line with Spike's preferences
anyway.)
Jeff
Elisi
You made me think of this:
http://rahirah.livejournal.com/248542.html (no spoilers - although
there might be some in the comments)
You will never convince anyone that you're right. We will never
convice you that you're wrong. Let's just leave it, m'kay? It's a TV
show!
(For me it's very simple: Spike is a Big. Damn. Hero. So is Buffy. The
end.)
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
.
> ANGEL
> Season Five, Episode 8: "Destiny"
> (or "Okay, can we move on to the fight scene, please?")
I was hoping for "Des-ti-ny! Des-ti-ny! No escaping that for me!"
Destiny completes a shift that has been going on throughout season 5. In
the past Darla was the central figure in Angel's pre-soul vampire life,
and Drusilla was the central figure in Spike's; but now the emphasis has
been moved to Spike's role in Angel's unlife, and vice versa. I'm just
noting this change, not criticizing it. In fact it was a pretty good
idea, once the decision to bring Spike onto AtS had been made. But it
most certainly is a change, not a simple continuation of the two vampires'
stories as they had been presented in previous seasons.
> stretches, particularly early on. Spike gets a package from an
> unknown benefactor, and his time as a ghost is abruptly over, just
> like that. Huh.
I don't know if this was ME's intent, but the abrupt and anticlimactic way
Spike got his body back keeps the audience from seeing it as important in
itself. Instead, the focus is kept on what this means for Spike's
relationship with Angel.
> take us there, subjecting us to other stuff first. There's a general
> danger plot that seems to follow no rhyme or reason. And there's a
> mystical quest object, introduced in an endless lecture by "Home"'s
> Sirk, an annoying and, oh yeah, dull character.
I liked him much, much better in Home. The whole scene where he
re-interprets prophecy for Angel and company was fairly dumb. I
was especially bothered by the way Sirk tells Angel reading a translation
of a prophecy is almost useless, then proceeds to give them ... another
translation. (It would have made more sense if he had gone beyond
translating to really explain each passage and put it in context, but that
would have also made the scene even longer.) And I have to agree with
Apteryx that our heroes look pretty stupid for buying Sirk's act so
readily. Same thing with Eve's story about why the universe was
supposedly being thrown into catastrophic turmoil.
> Speaking of the parts with people going crazy, was anyone disappointed
> in Spike for immediately turning to Harmony, oft-spurned fuck-buddy
> and evil vampire, for his sexual fix? Not very chivalrous of him, but
> I can see it from a hungry and horny ghost.
Not disappointing at all for me. I thought it was perfectly in character
(and not unlike nine-tenths of his previous relationship with Harmony).
Look at it as another aspect of the petty side all our Champions have.
> Finally we get out to the core of the story, which is an excuse for
> our two vampires to settle some of their differences. Spike's sudden
> sucker-punch is a strong moment, as is the subsequent battle. Not all
> of the dialogue works; I think it goes just slightly overboard with
> turning their rivalry into schoolboy one-upsmanship. But the
> confluence of the flashbacks with the present day scenes clicks.
Very reminiscent of Fool for Love.
> Stating the obvious, Spike is still very much William at
> this point, triggered now to start developing his new persona. I'm
> still trying to toss over in my head how this disillusionment fits in
> with him continuing to hold the same William-esque eternal view of
> Drusilla for another century. Ideas, people?
Maybe Spike's romantic love for Drusilla, rooted though it may be in
William's poetic nature, was also in part a result of his jealousy about
Dru and Angelus. He made himself into the perfect vampire lover to win
Dru's love for himself exclusively, and he built their relationship up
into an eternal Twu Wuv because that just blew away any fleeting physical
pleasure she had with Angelus.
> But if we can get that
> to fit, it otherwise does something important in that it pulls him
> partially away from his mother issues, and makes Spike the monster
> that Angel created, forever establishing the personal link between
> them. Useful tool for a series to have, yes?
Agreed that this is a better source for Spike's nature than his mother
issues were. However, without making a big deal out of it, I'd just like
to point out that Spike would have been a monster anyway, with or without
Angelus to mold him. As people have said in other threads, Drusilla made
Spike a monster when she turned him; what Angelus did was not to make him
a monster but to teach Spike to be one of the worst of the monsters. And
needless to say, but I'll say it anyway, Spike's attempts to blame the
evil he did on Angel should be regarded as Spike's own rather biased
perspective, not as objective truth.
> Probably the most memorable part of the episode is, as is typical for
> ME, after the fighting's stopped. Angel sees that Spike's won. For a
> brief instant, he's suddenly devoid of taunting or selfishness, as he
> sees an important moral obligation to keep a good man from committing
> to a lifetime of suffering. Boreanaz is perfect here. "That's not a
> prize you're holding. It's not a trophy. It's a burden. It's a
> cross. One you're gonna have to bear till it burns you to ashes.
> Believe me. I know. So ask yourself: is this really the destiny that
> was meant for you? Do you even really want it? Or is it that you
> just want to take something away from me?"
I don't see this as Angel's attempt to save Spike from a lifetime of
suffering. IMO Spike's welfare was still far from Angel's mind.
Instead, Angel was focused on the idea that Spike was not worthy of the
prize/burden. That speech was mostly one last attempt to stop Spike from
taking what he didn't deserve. It also shows how little respect Angel has
for Spike, in that he thought Spike didn't understand what it was he was
holding.
Of course it turns out that Angel doesn't understand either. Will the
realization that it was a trick deflate any of either vampire's
pretentions?
> "You mean the fake cup? The make-believe, fairy-tale cup? So what?"
> Here's the most effective portrayal so far of the recurring idea that
> Angel's been The One for so long that it's become a daily-grind job
> that he can't imagine he won't always have. Even if he goes yet
> another episode of losing all his important fights. Spike wasn't just
> stronger, he had the Eye Of The Tiger. So whether our nominal hero
> rediscovers that passion for martyrdom or learns to deal with a
> different role in life, things are going to have to change for him.
One would hope so. But if it just turns into a martyrdom competition with
Spike, that wouldn't be a change for the better.
> AOQ rating: Good
I'd agree. The development of Angel and Spike's relationship and the
surprise at the end make up for a substantial amount of plot silliness in
the first half.
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
alphakitten
Except for the part where they keep him alive for ten minutes before the
amulet does it's thing.
> Again, there's no mention of Spike *helping* to save the world as part
> of a collaborative effort. What's said here is that Spike saved the
> world. Period. It's said multiple times and it's never challenged.
>
You don't have much of an attention span, do you Burt?
~Angel
Arbitrar Of Quality
> On Feb 11, 6:57 pm, "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> > A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > threads.
>
> > Season Five, Episode 8: "Destiny"
> > (or "Okay, can we move on to the fight scene, please?")
> > Director: Skip Schoolnik
>
> Originally this was S. de Knight's episode, but apparently he decided
> that Angel should win the big fight (because it as his show). David
> Fury objected to this very strongly, saying (quite rightly) that Spike
> _had_ to win. They ended up having a big shouting match, culminating
> with de Knight yelling "Well then write it yourself!" Which Fury then
> did... (parts of it anyway). :)
Interesting. I wonder if they talk about it any more on the
commentary, and what Steven thought of the final product, and so on.
> So we see Spike blaming Angel for who he is - just like Connor.
> Through neglect or teaching, they both think that Angel created them.
> But - then they go different paths:
>
> Angel: I didn't make you, Spike. I just opened up the door... and let
> the real you out.
> Spike: You never knew the real me! Too busy trying to see your own
> reflection... praying there was someone as disgusting as you in the
> world, so you could stand to live with yourself. Take a long look,
> hero. I'm _nothing_ like you!
> 'Destiny'
Well, what do you think about that distinction? Was Angel tapping
into something that was already there when molding Willy? Connor
started off trying to deny that he was anything like his father, but
he couldn't maintain that for very long.
> To quote kita0610:
>
> 'From Drusilla's affections to Buffy's, from fighting on the side of
> good to gaining a soul, Spike, since Day One, has followed in
> "Daddy's" footsteps. And has resented the hell out of it.'
Vampire relationships are weird that way in the Buffyverse, since
sirees
> > But the
> > confluence of the flashbacks with the present day scenes clicks. In
> > the nineteenth century parts, the nonverbal cues from all three actors
> > sell William's anguish, and wow, do Angel and Dru seem to be enjoying
> > themselves. Stating the obvious, Spike is still very much William at
> > this point, triggered now to start developing his new persona. I'm
> > still trying to toss over in my head how this disillusionment fits in
> > with him continuing to hold the same William-esque eternal view of
> > Drusilla for another century. Ideas, people?
>
> He's very persistent. And it doesn't look like he accepts what Angelus
> says, does it? He spends the next 20 years trying to prove Angelus
> wrong. And then of course Angelus goes away.
I don't know. It seems to me like he wishes he could reject these
ideas, but that he thinks some of them may be right.
> Another interesting point is how the two of them make no distinction
> between past and present selves. It's 'you' and 'me' - and considering
> how much Angel tries to distance himself from his later ego when
> around his friends, that is very interesting. Take this line f.ex.:
>
> ANGEL
> Little more complicated than that. But you always were a bit simple...
> Willy.
>
> That's pure Angelus. As is:
>
> ANGEL
> No. You're less. That's why Buffy never really loved you: Because you
> weren't me.
>
> Angel can integrate his dark side perfectly well when he wants to...
I mention this frequently, but I really don't see at all why people
are so big on different identities for our favorite souled vampires.
It's pretty clear to me that you can't have Angel without a heavy dose
of "Angelus," and Spike is clearly the same person as he was when he
was monster. As an aside, maybe that's why, although it was exciting
to see non-flashbacky, modern-day Evil Angel for an extended period
last year, it wasn't the same kind of adrenaline rush as it was back
in BTVS Season Two. Since those days, as the writers have gotten to
know Angel better (and within the story, as the character's grown more
comfortable with himself again), most of what's fun about Angelus has
manifested itself, usually in a more interesting way, as part of
Angel.
I don't know why the "you" and "me" are jumping out at you now given
that there's never been a pronoun separation between the "then" and
"now" versions of these characters, ever. I'd disagree that our hero
tries to separate himself from his past to the extent that you seem to
be suggesting (I'd throw in some recent quotes if I weren't at work,
but I'm pretty sure I could find a line in which he uses "I" when
referring to soulless actions in "Apocalypse, Nowish" [to Cordy] and
"Players" [Re: Lilah] that would be appropriate), although you're
right that it's coming out strongly this week when he's alone with his
fellow deviant.
> Exactly. And also shows why Spike is perfect this season - Angel is
> losing his mission, his drive, and suddenly here's someone who can do
> everything he can. It's like Groo - but magnified a million.
Hadn't thought of that paralell at all, but yes, well said. Spike
even moved in on his unattainable girl too.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
wrote:
>
> Lindsey's appearance in this episode was possibly the best kept spoiler
> secret in the history of either series. The scene at the end was shot on a
> separate soundstage, with minimal crew, and the only actor that knew about
> Kane appearing was Thompson, even after the shooting was completed for the
> episode.
>
> Whedon had tried for this sort of 'gotcha' before, but word would always
> get out. In this case, nobody in fandom saw it coming, and not a single
> spoiler post was made, until some people saw the wild feed the morning the
> show was scheduled.
That's devotion to duty. But I'd hope that it was generally only the
fringes of the online followers who knew about some of the last-minute
cameos in advance, though.
-AOQ
burt...@hotmail.com
wrote:
> burt1...@hotmail.com writes:
> >And the big, gaping tear in the balance of the universe? I suppose she
> >staged that, too?
>
> Yes of course she did. Didn't you watch the episode? The whole thing
> was a fake-out from start to end.
>
> "You know, funny thing about throwing the universe out of whack... not
> as fun as it sounds. On the plus side, they totally fell for the cup
> of torment thing. Just like you thought they would."
Oh, good lord. I had thought this was perfectly obvious, but I guess
there are some people who didn't get it. When Eve says they threw the
universe out of whack, she meant that they did it by giving Spike his
body back. It was a direct consequence of something they did.
> Some magical effect hits the LA office of Wolfram & Hart (funny how a
> "big, gaping tear in the balance of the universe" only affects a
> single building, huh?). Angel and Spike go on a wild goose chase for a
> cup full of Mountain Dew and nearly kill each other. When they get
> back, both still alive, the magical effects miraculously stop and Eve
> spins a line about how "the Senior Partners stepped in". Yeah, right.
>
> Lindsey and Eve pulled a con job. "Right under the Senior Partners'
> noses", as she says herself... and Angel and Spike fell for it. So,
> apparently, did you...
Right. It was a con job, even though Eve specifically stated that they
"threw the universe out of whack." It was such a good con job they
apparently even fooled themselves!
Sheesh, the lengths people will go to to ignore facts that go against
their preconceived views never ceases to amaze me.
burt...@hotmail.com
Except for the part where that wasn't at all necessary.
> > Again, there's no mention of Spike *helping* to save the world as part
> > of a collaborative effort. What's said here is that Spike saved the
> > world. Period. It's said multiple times and it's never challenged.
>
> You don't have much of an attention span, do you Burt?
*yawn*
burt...@hotmail.com
The universe speaks for the entire universe. Remember the big
screaming vortex that Gunn ran into?
Arbitrar Of Quality
> In alt.tv.angel Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> Destiny completes a shift that has been going on throughout season 5. In
> the past Darla was the central figure in Angel's pre-soul vampire life,
> and Drusilla was the central figure in Spike's; but now the emphasis has
> been moved to Spike's role in Angel's unlife, and vice versa. I'm just
> noting this change, not criticizing it. In fact it was a pretty good
> idea, once the decision to bring Spike onto AtS had been made. But it
> most certainly is a change, not a simple continuation of the two vampires'
> stories as they had been presented in previous seasons.
Interesting point.
> > Stating the obvious, Spike is still very much William at
> > this point, triggered now to start developing his new persona. I'm
> > still trying to toss over in my head how this disillusionment fits in
> > with him continuing to hold the same William-esque eternal view of
> > Drusilla for another century. Ideas, people?
>
> Maybe Spike's romantic love for Drusilla, rooted though it may be in
> William's poetic nature, was also in part a result of his jealousy about
> Dru and Angelus. He made himself into the perfect vampire lover to win
> Dru's love for himself exclusively, and he built their relationship up
> into an eternal Twu Wuv because that just blew away any fleeting physical
> pleasure she had with Angelus.
That'll work for me.
> > But if we can get that
> > to fit, it otherwise does something important in that it pulls him
> > partially away from his mother issues, and makes Spike the monster
> > that Angel created, forever establishing the personal link between
> > them. Useful tool for a series to have, yes?
>
> Agreed that this is a better source for Spike's nature than his mother
> issues were. However, without making a big deal out of it, I'd just like
> to point out that Spike would have been a monster anyway, with or without
> Angelus to mold him. As people have said in other threads, Drusilla made
> Spike a monster when she turned him; what Angelus did was not to make him
> a monster but to teach Spike to be one of the worst of the monsters. And
> needless to say, but I'll say it anyway, Spike's attempts to blame the
> evil he did on Angel should be regarded as Spike's own rather biased
> perspective, not as objective truth.
Agreed in principle; Spike was evil once he was turned. What's
important for the purposes of this story isn't simply whether he was a
killer, but to what extent his time with Angel shaped his personality
and sense of self.
> > Probably the most memorable part of the episode is, as is typical for
> > ME, after the fighting's stopped. Angel sees that Spike's won. For a
> > brief instant, he's suddenly devoid of taunting or selfishness, as he
> > sees an important moral obligation to keep a good man from committing
> > to a lifetime of suffering. Boreanaz is perfect here. "That's not a
> > prize you're holding. It's not a trophy. It's a burden. It's a
> > cross. One you're gonna have to bear till it burns you to ashes.
> > Believe me. I know. So ask yourself: is this really the destiny that
> > was meant for you? Do you even really want it? Or is it that you
> > just want to take something away from me?"
>
> I don't see this as Angel's attempt to save Spike from a lifetime of
> suffering. IMO Spike's welfare was still far from Angel's mind.
> Instead, Angel was focused on the idea that Spike was not worthy of the
> prize/burden. That speech was mostly one last attempt to stop Spike from
> taking what he didn't deserve. It also shows how little respect Angel has
> for Spike, in that he thought Spike didn't understand what it was he was
> holding.
To me, there was a clear shift in the delivery. "You don't wanna do
this, man. C'mon, step back from the roof, gimme the cup..."
-AOQ
burt...@hotmail.com
> there might be some in the comments)
>
> You will never convince anyone that you're right. We will never
> convice you that you're wrong. Let's just leave it, m'kay? It's a TV
> show!
When did I ever say it wasn't?
> (For me it's very simple: Spike is a Big. Damn. Hero. So is Buffy. The
> end.)
Spike's heroism (or lack thereof) has nothing to do with what we're
discussing here.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> On Feb 12, 10:34 am, Stephen Tempest <step...@stempest.demon.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> > burt1...@hotmail.com writes:
> > >And the big, gaping tear in the balance of the universe? I suppose she
> > >staged that, too?
>
> > Yes of course she did. Didn't you watch the episode? The whole thing
> > was a fake-out from start to end.
>
> > "You know, funny thing about throwing the universe out of whack... not
> > as fun as it sounds. On the plus side, they totally fell for the cup
> > of torment thing. Just like you thought they would."
>
> Oh, good lord. I had thought this was perfectly obvious, but I guess
> there are some people who didn't get it. When Eve says they threw the
> universe out of whack, she meant that they did it by giving Spike his
> body back. It was a direct consequence of something they did.
How? They'd both been souled vampires with bodies before, for almost
an entire year, and they'd been in the same room together ("End Of
Days"). No ill effects on the Universe. This was manufactured
specifically to set up the make-believe fairy tale cup, and they undid
it once it had served its purpose.
> > Lindsey and Eve pulled a con job. "Right under the Senior Partners'
> > noses", as she says herself... and Angel and Spike fell for it. So,
> > apparently, did you...
>
> Right. It was a con job, even though Eve specifically stated that they
> "threw the universe out of whack." It was such a good con job they
> apparently even fooled themselves!
You're both right and wrong. They threw the Universe out of whack,
and it was a con job.
> Sheesh, the lengths people will go to to ignore facts that go against
> their preconceived views never ceases to amaze me.
Oh, that one is too good to pass up.... but there's no point in being
inflammatory...
-AOQ
~when in doubt, find a half-assd middle ground~
Apteryx
news:AvudncfFMPwO3E3Y...@comcast.com...
>> I'm never a fan for these occaisions when the characters decide to mix
>> their fight with a bit of a chat about life, and their feelings, and the
>> price of fish in Equador, but this is perhaps the worst example in the
>> Buffyverse. Slow and boring.
>
> I suspect you didn't care for those Spidey comics where he chats up a
> storm during fights.
Given that I have never read a Spiderman comic, I guess you could say I
don't care one way or the other.
>>> AOQ rating: Good
>>
>> It does set stages. It does important stuff for the season. But so much
>> of it is OTT, and the plot relies so much on the characters' stupidity
>> that I'd only call it Decent. It's my 63rd favourite AtS episode, 19th
>> best in season 5.
>>
>
> What stupidity? Weirdness abounds in the Buffyverse. It's no more
> illogical than demon eggs or singing oracle demons.
I'm not calling the plot stupid or weird beyond the norm in the Buffyverse.
The stupidity I am talking about is that of the characters, in particular in
believing Sirk.
--
Apteryx
Apteryx
news:1171283805.4...@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 12, 1:13 am, "Apteryx" <apte...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>
>> Not for me. The "new translation" invented by Sirk (just after he has
>> poo-pooed the notion of working with translations)
>
> Um... how else is he going to read anything, if it's not translated?
By learning the language that the thing is written in. He's just told them
that that's the only way to understand anything, and then gives them another
translation. They really need Wes (or someone they trust who does know the
language its written in) before doing anything silly based on a supposed
translation.
>> Way overboard for me. As far overboard as Angel at the end of Tomorrow.
>> I'm
>> never a fan for these occaisions when the characters decide to mix their
>> fight with a bit of a chat about life, and their feelings, and the price
>> of
>> fish in Equador, but this is perhaps the worst example in the Buffyverse.
>> Slow and boring.
>
> You really are a very strange creature. This is quite possibly the
> _best_ fight of the Buffy verse (the one in 'Smashed' would probably
> come second).
Didn't much like that either. All forms of stylised drama seem to have the
effect that some people will passionately love them and others just as
passionately hate them. I like opera, but can't get into ballet or kabuki,
or apparently discoursive combat.
--
Apteryx
Mel
burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Feb 11, 11:11 am, "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>burt1...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>And here we get independent confirmation that Spike did, indeed, save
>>>the world. Independent confirmation that he, with his amulet ex
>>>machina, was the one who destroyed the Ubervamp army in "Chosen," not
>>>the Slayers, as some people around here have tried to claim.
>>
>>It was a collaborative effort. The Slayers fought back the attacking
>>army, and Spike closed the Hellmouth for good. I think they all
>>deserve full world-saving credit.
>>
>>Participating in this discussion one last time, I'm sorry that
>>"Chosen" wasn't successful in converying what it was going for to
>>everyone. It's clear to me on that count, at least.
>>
>>SPIKE: No, you've beat them back. It's for me to do the cleanup.
>
>
> And, again, if all Spike did was cleanup, he wouldn't get credit from
> higher powers for saving the world.
>
> I can sort of see being fuzzy about what happened in "Chosen" (though
> it was always perfectly clear to me - the Slayers only killed 50 or so
> Ubervamps out of thousands), but here, it's clear and unambiguous.
> Spike saved the world. Therefore, Spike destroyed the Ubervamp army.
> Not the Slayers.
Spike is boasting to Angel just to piss him off. In a previous episode,
Spike says he did nothing but stand there and let the fire come to him;
he was playing things down to Fred. Here, he's playing things up to
Angel. Different audience, different emphasis. If you are taking one
thing he says at literal face value, you have to take it all. You can't
just pick the one that fits your arguement.
Mel
Rowan Hawthorn
>
> I suspect you didn't care for those Spidey comics where he chats up a storm
> during fights.
>
I actually wrote Stan Lee, back about 1963, and told him that, IMO, his
characters talked too darn much while they were right in the middle of
the fight of their lives.
Not that he listened, y'understand, but I *did* get an answer back (and
I wish to hell I knew what ever happened to that little note. Probably
over in the same pocket dimension that now houses my 5000+ baseball
cards from the same time period...)
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Mel
Apteryx wrote:
>
>
>>And as for that ending, I am an acknowledged sucker for the Big
>>Reveal, so of course I dug this. As mentioned, the viewer doesn't
>>trust Eve in a general sense, but, like Angel, may have been mislead
>>into thinking that it's possible to work together with her when things
>>that baffle the Senior Partners happen. It seriously didn't even
>>occur to me that she could be running her own game. Now, as with
>>Drusilla, a quick scan over the DVD box reveals that Lindsey would be
>>back in the game, so he was one of several guesses for who her
>>tattooed love boy might be. Although it's great to see him again, his
>>story seemed pretty complete without dabbling in the Dark Arts
>>voluntarily anymore, so we'll have to see what the show comes up with.
>
>
> Great reveal. As to Lindsey's motives for returning, the fact that Eve
> reports to him that Spike didn't kill Angel but they did beat each other up
> suggests that revenge on Angel may be a part of it at least. And also
> suggests another Eve/Lilah similarity, that Eve may not fully share the SP's
> desire to keep Angel alive until their apocalypse.
Remember Lindsey's last words to Angel: don't play their (W&H) game,
make them play yours. Maybe he's disappointed that Angel hasn't really
taken his advice.
Mel
burt...@hotmail.com
> On Feb 12, 5:05 pm, burt1...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 12, 10:34 am, Stephen Tempest <step...@stempest.demon.co.uk>
> > wrote:
>
> > > burt1...@hotmail.com writes:
> > > >And the big, gaping tear in the balance of the universe? I suppose she
> > > >staged that, too?
>
> > > Yes of course she did. Didn't you watch the episode? The whole thing
> > > was a fake-out from start to end.
>
> > > "You know, funny thing about throwing the universe out of whack... not
> > > as fun as it sounds. On the plus side, they totally fell for the cup
> > > of torment thing. Just like you thought they would."
>
> > Oh, good lord. I had thought this was perfectly obvious, but I guess
> > there are some people who didn't get it. When Eve says they threw the
> > universe out of whack, she meant that they did it by giving Spike his
> > body back. It was a direct consequence of something they did.
>
> How? They'd both been souled vampires with bodies before, for almost
> an entire year, and they'd been in the same room together ("End Of
> Days"). No ill effects on the Universe.
It was specifically stated in this episode that having two souled
vampires was fine, but when Spike saved the world, it changed things.
> > > Lindsey and Eve pulled a con job. "Right under the Senior Partners'
> > > noses", as she says herself... and Angel and Spike fell for it. So,
> > > apparently, did you...
>
> > Right. It was a con job, even though Eve specifically stated that they
> > "threw the universe out of whack." It was such a good con job they
> > apparently even fooled themselves!
>
> You're both right and wrong. They threw the Universe out of whack,
> and it was a con job.
So if Eve and Lindsey have the kind of power it takes to change the
fundamental structure of the universe, why bother with the elaborate
head games? Why don't they simply wave their hands, blast Angel & Co.
out of existence, and take over everything themselves?
> > Sheesh, the lengths people will go to to ignore facts that go against
> > their preconceived views never ceases to amaze me.
>
> Oh, that one is too good to pass up.... but there's no point in being
> inflammatory...
*shrug* Whatever.
Mel
burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
What tear? The only place things were wiggy was inside W&H. Lindsey and
Eve made the whole thing up and staged a few tricks to make everyone
believe it was real. Then, once the cup, and therefore Sirk's reading of
the prophecy, is revealed as fake, the "senior partners" step in and fix
everything. How convenient.
Mel
One Bit Shy
news:1171220245.4...@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> ANGEL
> Season Five, Episode 8: "Destiny"
> This is kinda the part where things start to congeal. Season Five has
> tried to avoid the same kind of serialization that the past two years
> brought us, but as with all Whedon-produced shows, there are long-term
> things going on, and here they're in the forefront. Of course, for
> every answer, there's at least one new question, because that's how
> things work this time of year.
The episode certainly does suggest something like that, and I was very
hopeful of it when I saw it... But I was also suspicious. At this point I
wasn't convinced that anything would carry foreword in a meaningful fashion.
Even here, the season's past is oddly forgotten. I suppose it's good that
they didn't show Wesley unaffected by the last episode - but achieving that
by leaving him out entirely isn't exactly a solution. (Yes, I know there
are other reasons - I'd skip some work to go marry that witch myself - but
the in story effect remains odd.) The box of flash turns Spike's and Fred's
efforts to re-corporealize him into so much doodling. Indeed, it makes the
six episodes of ghostly Spike feel like loitering on a street corner. What
exactly did we gain from that?
So, yeah, this episode *should* establish some things moving forward, but
will it really? At this point my confidence is shaken. I still can't get
out of my head the start of Numero Cinco when Angel, after concluding the
previous episode with the great caution that W&H was trying to change them,
listens to Gunn speak of how much he enjoys his new work and can only
respond with something vague about being disconnected. (Which comes across
as wishing W&H would change him too.) I've come to expect things like that
as normal now.
This episode does tie some things together though. Numero Cinco's message
of Angel losing his sense of mission and maybe not really having the heart
of a hero. Hell Bound's message to Spike about one's will making things
happen. And, finally, a call back to Just Rewards with the question of what
Angel and Spike each deserve - and who deserves it more.
That's good, but also highly selective. Selective in a fashion that doesn't
feel like real character continuity. Even some of the grand themes of this
episode might have a catch as catch can quality to them. From the
commentary I learned that the original concept of the fight was all about
Buffy, but that (thankfully) wasn't deemed sufficient. And it was very late
in the game - after the fight scene had been written - that it occurred to
them that Spike really should win. I don't want to make *too* much about a
process of creation that did, after all, come up with the better dramatic
presentation in the end. But it's another thing that's suggestive to me of
a season thus far less tied to meaningful thematic and character development
than it pretends to be.
I do like this episode, for both its actions and its ideas. And am at this
point in the season hopeful for its significance. I'm just skeptical too -
kind of doing an early season taking of stock that isn't feeling very
favorable towards S5 thus far. My individual episode ratings have been
pretty good - aside from two Weak ratings. This one will get a Good. But
the whole is much less than the parts. (I'm trying to take the vantage
point of a fresh viewer here. Putting on my other hat as one who has
actually seen the episodes to come, I'll say that things will eventually get
much better.)
>Given how well Angel and Spike haven't gotten along
> any time we've ever seen them, it's clever to make Angelus originally
> take a liking to this new arrival. His openness to the idea of doing
> certain things with another man almost skips the subtext phase
> entirely, and then "you and me, we're gonna be the best of friends."
> makes for a nice transition to present-day bickering.
Even I, who usually misses it, saw the homo-erotic elements of their first
encounter. But ultimately I see that more as a trick to help bring the edge
they needed to the relationship. It's intimate. It's daring - even
dangerous. And it calls forth the passion of vampirism that, by its nature,
always parallels the passion of sexuality. And it's distinctly male. When
Angelus speaks of wearying of the company of women I can see it right away
in terms of wanting a different kind of basic companionship.
And an opportunity to mold something different. Dru was always presented as
Angelus's greatest triumph. It makes sense that he would look to a male
subject to work on - and exceptionally fitting that it would be Spike.
Previous flashbacks to Darla's little family have tended to show Spike as
somewhat the outsider or interloper, and played to the resentment between
Spike and Angelus. That was always useful, but incomplete. Finally we see
the real connection and, as a bonus, Dru as catalyst - which retrospectively
adds all sorts of subtext to the post-Innocence period of BtVS S2.
The best thing about this episode IMO is how it carves out a fresh aspect to
Angel and Spike's relationship that shines such a bright light into the
hearts of both and serves to solidify both of their characters over the full
stretch of both series. It always made sense for Spike, the rival, who
trailed after Angel from big bad to Buffy to soul to hero, to resent forever
being in Angel's wake. But it adds so much more richness to it once you
realize how much of Spike was consciously crafted by Angel. Spike didn't
want to merely supersede Angel (though he surely wanted that too), he wanted
to set himself apart from Angel as his own man, utterly different from
Angel. God, how much more must it have grated for Spike to forever find
himself following Angel's path.
This episode also well supports Elisi's suggestion of Spike as the prodigal
son returned - unwelcome - and in contrast to Connor. And while I still
don't think much has been done to point to Connor specifically, the whole
idea of Spike as Angel's creation following in his footsteps does allow the
notion of a Connor comparison to fall naturally into place. The real stand
out moment on that front for me is Spike's line to Angel, "Too busy trying
to see your own reflection." Isn't that largely what Angel attempted with
Connor? Isn't the false family Angel gave Connor in Home, as Scythe pointed
out, Angel's dream manifested - not Connor's dream?
> Spike gets a package from an
> unknown benefactor, and his time as a ghost is abruptly over, just
> like that. Huh.
Although that just shoves six episodes of bother away, I'm glad it was done
this way. There's a kind of simple elegance to it, and I love how it's
recognized by the consequences rather than the deed. The building cacaphony
of ringing phones is a nice touch. Besides, I didn't think there was
anything worth salvaging from ghost Spike anyway. Get it behind us.
> There's a general
> danger plot that seems to follow no rhyme or reason.
The bloody eyes are awful. Aside from that I'm OK with this. The idea is
simply that the balance of the universe has come undone, and nonsensical
things happen as a result. (No more toner.) Nothing can be done about it
until the balance is restored.
> And there's a
> mystical quest object, introduced in an endless lecture by "Home"'s
> Sirk, an annoying and, oh yeah, dull character. Other than the line
> "I miss Wesley," strong dislike for that scene, all fourteen hours of
> it. A lot of the revelations here are pulled out of the story's ass
> to, you guessed it, give Spike and Angel an excuse to fight. That
> complaint is, of course, ameliorated somewhat by the eventual
> revelation that these things *are* plot bunnies within the story of
> ATS, not just outside it. Still not my favorite scenes to watch,
> though.
I think it ameliorates it a lot. It's pretty cleverly constructed to take
advantage of Sirk's specialized knowledge to snow the team. Sirk is
splendid as he contemptuously tells Angel, "You didn't read the prophecy,"
and then moving into a grandiose fictionalization of the prophecy. But he
stumbles a bit at the end when he must somehow tie that back to an abandoned
opera house in Death Valley. That's exactly where a con of that sort would
be at its weakest.
(The opera house is a fiction. But you might be amused at this anyway.
http://www.amargosaoperahouse.com/main.html )
I'm sorry you didn't enjoy that, but I think Sirk is very good. Loved the
metaphor lines.
> Speaking of the parts with people going crazy, was anyone disappointed
> in Spike for immediately turning to Harmony, oft-spurned fuck-buddy
> and evil vampire, for his sexual fix?
Not me. I don't know why a soul would make Spike any less horny.... Or
Harmony for that matter.
> The show will have its
> hands full continuing to come up with ways to keep him too busy to get
> in touch with Buffy ASAP.
OK. Lets test that theory in coming episodes.
> Later on, Gunn going after Eve works because (like Harmony)
> he's got real motivations.
Before he does, Gunn and Eve have an odd scene together. Eve essentially
goads Gunn for no particular reason. (And then Eve watches him really
closely. Beady eyes Eve. Kind of creepy.)
> She does seem likely to be behind things,
> or playing them in some way. One still feels like Fred makes the
> right choice under the circumstances to save her and knock out Charles
> one more time, a notion which the ending will turn around on the
> viewer. The Fred/Eve and Gunn/Eve exchanges that cap off this
> particular plot thread accomplish the always neat trick of finding
> sympathy for one of our devils. Like Fred, we know, for a fact, that
> Eve is evil when it comes down to it. But it's hard to maintain a
> relentless onslaught against an enemy who's so aggressively sad. When
> Thomson makes it clear that her character is hurting, the viewer can
> feel it, and when says that she's not the bad guy, I can almost
> believe her. Which is again exactly the frame of mind "Destiny" wants
> from us, of course.
What's real and what's a con? The sequences with Eve are almost as
fascinating as the exchanges between Spike and Angel - and much more
mysterious.
We know that Lindsey, with Eve's inside assistance, prompted the crisis and
sent Spike and Angel after the cup. Evidently it was hoped that Spike would
kill Angel. (Why they didn't expect Angel to kill Spike I don't know.)
Whether they intended more is not clear. It is interesting that one piece
of fallout is that during the crisis, the senior partners were not in
contact with the L.A. office. Does that have significance? Evidently
they're connected again - or at least Eve says they are. Is the big cat
back?
There are more possible permuations than I can recount here, but it's
probably perilous to assume anything. And a couple issues really stand out
to me.
Does Angel and Spike's simultaneous existance really cause an imbalance in
the universe. Eve says so. And she says the fix is temporary. And, well,
Eve says a lot of things. We know that she set up the lie about the cup.
Why isn't everything else a lie too? One of the things that might get a
little lost in all the noise is that though Spike won the battle and Angel
is afraid he's not the one, nothing happened to make Spike the one either.
Nor anything to validate the prophecy in the slightest. In my estimation,
Angel's opinion that prophecies are worthless remains the best fit.
On the other hand, something did happen when the box of flash made Spike a
real boy again. And Eve did say to Lindsey, "You know, funny thing about
throwing the universe out of whack... not as fun as it sounds." That does
suggest that the universe really was thrown out of whack. But it doesn't
say why or how. Note that out of whack appears to be limited to W&H - not
the universe. Even when Angel and Spike (the presumed focus) leave the
building. Perhaps the box of flash was a package of magicks to create an
illusion - make the electrical systems go nuts. (Oh, look, no security.)
Solidify Spike. (Maybe there's a simple invocation for the amulet to
complete Spike's resurection.) Make people in the proximity bleed out of
their eyes and go crazy. Oh, and sever the connection with the Senior
Partners.
The other interesting part is Gunn's attack on Eve and the aftermath. Eve
is clearly frightened during the attack. And surely appears to be having a
struggle getting over that when Fred comes to her. Her words to Fred,
though, don't necessarily follow. They could be sincere. (Even the worst
bad guys often feel that they aren't really the bad guys.) Or she could be
playing Fred to gain her sympathy and deflect suspicion away from herself.
That might seem like quite a trick coming off of nearly being killed by
Gunn, which presumably couldn't be predicted or controlled... except there's
that scene she had with Gunn before the attack. The one she goaded him in.
And then watched him with a piercing gaze. Whatever magic was at work at
W&H, it appeared to manifest through anger. Everybody who went nuts had a
gripe of some sort. If Eve knew how the magic worked, then Gunn's attack
looks like it was set up by Eve.
That would be mighty brave and reckless of her, but mighty impressive too,
while demonstrating the scope of the scheme she engineered with Lindsey.
Eve is a lot more impressive right now. But there are also some chinks.
Throwing the universe out of whack really wasn't as fun as it sounds to her.
She may have pushed Gunn into the attack, but she was clearly terrified at
the result. For a brief time there she looked like the young girl
discovering how the world *really* works. Lilah lived with fear too - used
it. But she could never suggest that innocent discovery that she could
really die.
So we end up with an Eve deeper and stronger than we realized, but one also
showing her youth and limited exerience. This may be emphasized by the
final revelation of her being Lindsey's lover. It's so brief, but
everything about it shouts that this is Lindsey's game and Eve is playing it
because she's besotted with him.
> I'm
> still trying to toss over in my head how this disillusionment fits in
> with him continuing to hold the same William-esque eternal view of
> Drusilla for another century. Ideas, people?
Juliet's big contribution to the commentary is to shut up all the babbling
guys so she can talk about one moment.
William: You're wrong. We're forever, Drusilla and me.
Drusilla: (clasps her hands over her heart) Are we?
From her point of view, this is the moment the notion of an eternal bond
starts with Drusilla. Spike is still freshly turned (and now mother free),
so very fixated on Drusilla. Dru, on the other hand, made Spike on a lark.
She doesn't have that kind of attachment yet. But she does have a wild mind
that likes to explore crazy romantic ideas. She's struck by the poetry of
Spike's idea and decides to embrace it. (We also saw back in AtS S2 that it
was Drusilla that had the strongest sense of Darla's family being a real
family.)
The scene ends with a visually disturbing image of Angel holding an easily
yielding Drusilla, but with Dru holding her arms out to Spike anyway. A
sort of wanting it all stance that fits wonderfully with what we saw in BtVS
S2. Dru isn't the same as Spike. His single minded devotion appeals to
her, and she will play to it with great verve. But I think it's the romance
of it more than Spike himself. And she's cruel, powerful & manipulative
herself - well appreciating the romance of competing suitors as well.
It's just that there aren't many so worthy as Spike and Angel. I can't
think of many vampires we've seen in this universe that would be able to
earn Dru's attention.
> Probably the most memorable part of the episode is, as is typical for
> ME, after the fighting's stopped. Angel sees that Spike's won. For a
> brief instant, he's suddenly devoid of taunting or selfishness, as he
> sees an important moral obligation to keep a good man from committing
> to a lifetime of suffering. Boreanaz is perfect here. "That's not a
> prize you're holding. It's not a trophy. It's a burden. It's a
> cross. One you're gonna have to bear till it burns you to ashes.
> Believe me. I know. So ask yourself: is this really the destiny that
> was meant for you? Do you even really want it? Or is it that you
> just want to take something away from me?" But we're in a Mutant
> Enemy show. So now, having set that up, we knock it down with a very
> Spike response that's as flippant as possible in the face of a heavy
> situation: "bit of both." And on to Mountain Dew. We all may have
> seen the anti-climax coming (or at least I did), but the show is
> determined to milk it and makes us doubt ourselves with the musical
> and visual cues.
That's good, but the most memorable for me is when Spike tells Angel they're
nothing like each other and why. It's brutal.
I really like this fight. Yes, it is one of those filled with talking and
action. But I think back to the fight at the end of Release - one we both
were unsatisfied with - and see a world of difference. This time the words
really mattered and they fit the action. More to the point, they fed each
other. Angel and Spike both believe strongly in the power of will - the
power of their own will. This is a test of their will, physical and mental
both. In a significant fashion, the mental is more important, because
"will" is a state of mind used to pull more out of the physical. Their
verbal argument was a series of attempts to undercut the other's will.
The action is pretty good too. I love Spike screaming and flying through
the air trying to skewer Angel.
I think Spike pretty clearly wins both the physical and verbal joust. His
points struck deeper. But it's probably worth noting that Angel's jibes had
merit too, and Spike's claims were at times overblown.
Spike: I fought for my soul. Went through the demon trials. Almost did me
in a dozen times over, but I kept fighting. 'Cause I knew it was the right
thing to do. It's my destiny.
Angel: Really? Heard it was just to get into a girl's pants.
Angel's comeback wouldn't impress Spike. (It's more Angel assuring himself
that Spike's wrong.) And it's not entirely true. But it's probably more
true than the carried away claim by Spike that he knew he was doing the
right thing. What he actually knew was that he had run out of options. He
went into the soul quest pissed off that he had to do it. It's too easy now
to forget that Spike considered losing his soul the first time to be a
liberating experience.
Spike (From Fool For Love): Becoming a vampire is a profound and powerful
experience. I could feel this new strength coursing through me. Getting
killed made me feel alive for the very first time. I was through living by
society's rules. Decided to make a few of my own.
Angel's realization that he may not be as special as he imagined himself to
be is probably the greater story this episode, but Spike's grandiosity
shouldn't be ignored. Is it Spike's fate to follow Angel so closely that he
even makes Angel's error of claiming a destiny that's not his to claim?
The final note is that no matter who won the fight, neither got any sort of
destiny handed to them.
Which leads me back to Shanshu. Is there any truth to it? I had never been
comfortable with the conventional wisdom about the episode Blind Date back
in S1 - when the prophecy is first found. There are a number of things in
that episode that have always given me pause - none more so than the
circumstances by which Angel found the scroll holding the prophecy. W&H
should have been able to anticpate Angel's break-in and protect the scroll
if they really wanted to. But they didn't.
It's like W&H planted it to mess with Angel's head. And now we have Lindsey
back again - the man who helped Angel break into W&H when the scroll was
first taken - and the man who's last words to Angel was to not play W&H's
game. And what does he do? He falsely plants fresh hope within Shanshu to
manipulate two vampires. He's making Angel play his game - just as W&H has
always been out to make Angel play theirs. Sure looks like a lot of
parallels to me.
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> - "Saved the world, didn't I?" "Once. Talk to me after you've done
> it a couple more times"
> - "I fell down... some stairs. Big stairs"
"You ever heard a howling abyss?"
> So whether our nominal hero
> rediscovers that passion for martyrdom or learns to deal with a
> different role in life, things are going to have to change for him.
I sure hope so. It suggests some future major re-evaluation on the scale of
Epiphany.
> I
> have no idea if this is true or not, but I'm going to pretend that
> this is also a meta-comment about the hypothetical fan's concern that
> Spike would ride in and take over Angel's show.
I would assume so, though I doubt it helps.
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Sets stages.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
It's funny. I get the impression you didn't like the episode as much as I
did, yet I end up with the same rating.
Anyway, Destiny has an excellent look into the psychology of Angel/Spike,
some cool plot twisting and mystery with Lindsey/Eve's machinations, and a
big surprise ending. Good stuff. It's limited by not actually taking you
very far and spending an awful lot of time running around doing nothing of
consequence. I find the running around to be fun, but still trivial.
OBS
Mel
Apteryx wrote:
> "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1171283805.4...@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
>>On Feb 12, 1:13 am, "Apteryx" <apte...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Not for me. The "new translation" invented by Sirk (just after he has
>>>poo-pooed the notion of working with translations)
>>
>>Um... how else is he going to read anything, if it's not translated?
>
>
> By learning the language that the thing is written in. He's just told them
> that that's the only way to understand anything, and then gives them another
> translation. They really need Wes (or someone they trust who does know the
> language its written in) before doing anything silly based on a supposed
> translation.
He wasn't reading a translation. He was "translating" as he read what
looked like hieroglyphs and squigglies. I agree they believed it too
easily. If the Shanshu really said anything like that, Wesley would have
already told Angel about it when he first got hold of it back in Season 1.
Mel
One Bit Shy
news:1171222082.5...@a34g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> And here we get independent confirmation that Spike did, indeed, save
> the world. Independent confirmation that he, with his amulet ex
> machina, was the one who destroyed the Ubervamp army in "Chosen," not
> the Slayers, as some people around here have tried to claim.
Keep it simple, Burt. It suits you.
> So the message that "Chosen" sends to women is this - you can't handle
> power, you can't be a leader, and if you try, you'd better hope to god
> that a man is around to bail your ass out, because otherwise it'll be
> a disaster for you and everyone following you.
>
> What a great message, eh?
Oh, cool. I missed the dispute last time around.
OK. Lets examine this claim.
Eve: The keyword here is "champion." Spike gave his life to save the world.
That gives him the cred.
-----
Spike: Saved the world, didn't I?
-----
Angel: I really wished you stayed a ghost.
Spike: But I didn't, did I? Burned up saving the world, and now I'm back
for real. Wonder why that is? Oh, wait. 'Cause I'm the one, you git!
I think that's pretty much it as far as the claim goes. One claim by Eve,
who is consciously goading Spike and Angel to chase after a fake destiny
while she runs her big con. And two by Spike, who is consciously trying to
get under Angel's skin. You might want to note the last time Spike spoke of
saing the world in Numero Cinco.
Fred: Come on. You saved the world, sacrificed yourself, closed a
hellmouth.
Spike: Didn't do much, really. I just stood there... let the fire come.
Nothin' real heroic about that.
Rather less of a claim when he's not so busy boasting.
Numero Cinco has something else in it of interest.
Spike: When you say, "plays a major role in an apocalyptic battle," you
mean like, um... heroically closing a hellmouth that was about to destroy
the world?
First is the bit about "playing a major role". That's from Wesley's
description of the prophecy. Eve referred to the keyword of "champion".
Neither requires that the vampire with a soul single handedly save the
world.
Second is Spike's own focus on closing the hellmouth - which he did and has
never been disputed. What he doesn't do is say anything about defeating an
army of ubervamps.
None of this speaks of Buffy's role. (Though way back in Just Rewards,
Angel does refer to Spike helping Buffy save the world.) But then, the
conversation isn't about Buffy. It's about Spike. There's really no reason
to bring Buffy up. Buffy's role in saving the world is irrelevant. Keeping
in mind that all they are interested in is Spike's cred as champion, none of
the claims state or necessarily imply that he saved the world alone.
So what we have here are claims made by a boasting Spike and lying Eve.
They don't say he did it alone. And when specifics were actually spoken of
Spike speaks of just standing there and his part being the closing of the
hellmouth - not the defeat of an army.
I'm not finding much support for your assertion.
Oh, wait, the balance of the whole universe has been upset.
LOL
The notion that the existence of two champion vampires with a soul has
caused that is very dubious. There's a con being played. Indeed, it's
unlikely the universe is out of balance at all.
But ultimately that's utterly irrelevant to your point.
Nothing in the Shanshu prophecy requires that the vampire with the soul save
the world on his own.
Besides, when exactly did Angel do it? In this episode, when Spike asserts
he saved the world, Angel tells him to come back when he's done it a couple
more times. That's referring to Angel doing it multiple times. But Angel
can only make that claim by including when he *helped* save the world.
All of which assumes that the apocalyptic battle in question has already
happened. The conventional wisdom is the battle in question is yet to
come - for which Wesley has already said that *any* vampire with a soul is
eligible for. He doesn't have to be a hero yet. And if the battle has
already occurred, doesn't that mean that the prophecy has been fulfilled and
the reward already given? The only logical way for the universe to be out
of balance is if there's a divide in potential.
I'm sorry, but every way I look at it, I find no merit in your claim.
OBS
Arbitrar Of Quality
> On Feb 12, 3:28 pm, "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Feb 12, 5:05 pm, burt1...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 12, 10:34 am, Stephen Tempest <step...@stempest.demon.co.uk>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > burt1...@hotmail.com writes:
> > > > >And the big, gaping tear in the balance of the universe? I suppose she
> > > > >staged that, too?
>
> > > > Yes of course she did. Didn't you watch the episode? The whole thing
> > > > was a fake-out from start to end.
>
> > > > "You know, funny thing about throwing the universe out of whack... not
> > > > as fun as it sounds. On the plus side, they totally fell for the cup
> > > > of torment thing. Just like you thought they would."
>
> > > Oh, good lord. I had thought this was perfectly obvious, but I guess
> > > there are some people who didn't get it. When Eve says they threw the
> > > universe out of whack, she meant that they did it by giving Spike his
> > > body back. It was a direct consequence of something they did.
>
> > How? They'd both been souled vampires with bodies before, for almost
> > an entire year, and they'd been in the same room together ("End Of
> > Days"). No ill effects on the Universe.
>
> It was specifically stated in this episode that having two souled
> vampires was fine, but when Spike saved the world, it changed things.
Yeah, just double-checked, and that's true. I said I wouldn't get
into this repeating myself over and over thing, but it's worth
remembering that saying one person "gave his life to save the world"
doesn't inherently exclude anyone else's efforts (I'd say, if asked,
that Spike saved the world. So did Buffy, Willow, Faith, Kennedy,
Rona, etc.), and that this is coming from Eve, who has a specific
reason to tell it that way.
> > > > Lindsey and Eve pulled a con job. "Right under the Senior Partners'
> > > > noses", as she says herself... and Angel and Spike fell for it. So,
> > > > apparently, did you...
>
> > > Right. It was a con job, even though Eve specifically stated that they
> > > "threw the universe out of whack." It was such a good con job they
> > > apparently even fooled themselves!
>
> > You're both right and wrong. They threw the Universe out of whack,
> > and it was a con job.
>
> So if Eve and Lindsey have the kind of power it takes to change the
> fundamental structure of the universe, why bother with the elaborate
> head games? Why don't they simply wave their hands, blast Angel & Co.
> out of existence, and take over everything themselves?
It's unclear what exactly "throwing the Universe out of whack" entails
- a minor nudge with a specific tool, or godlike abilities? - and what
power they have access to, so I'll defer to someone who's seen the
rest of the show. But as mentioned here, it seems pretty wussy (and
entirely confined to the W&H building) for a genuine threat to all
existence. I think the problem for most people is that it doesn't
make much sense for the "two champions can't occupy the same position
in space" thing (which has nothing even resembling a Buffyverse
precedent) to be true but the Cup Of Torment to be fabricated. Eve,
who wants them to fight, emphasizes that settling their dispute is the
only way this issue can possibly be resolved, and then suddenly busts
out a new solution. The story points to her and Lindsey manufacturing
the whole thing.
-AOQ
alphakitten
Except for the part where the ubies sense him and shred both him and the
amulet.
~Angel
Espen Schjønberg
> burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> And here we get independent confirmation that Spike did, indeed, save
>> the world. Independent confirmation that he, with his amulet ex
>> machina, was the one who destroyed the Ubervamp army in "Chosen," not
>> the Slayers, as some people around here have tried to claim.
Independent confirmation is not the issue. What was there to be seen is
the issue. And there is _almost_ nothing _less_ valuable than post-fact
verbal confirmation from an on screen character.
> It was a collaborative effort. The Slayers fought back the attacking
> army, and Spike closed the Hellmouth for good. I think they all
> deserve full world-saving credit.
>
> Participating in this discussion one last time, I'm sorry that
> "Chosen" wasn't successful in converying what it was going for to
> everyone.
What something is going for, and where it ends, is not the same thing...
> It's clear to me on that count, at least.
Good for you.
> SPIKE: No, you've beat them back. It's for me to do the cleanup.
So, because the Big Damn Hero gives his bruised little sidekick credit
for helping him a bit, he is not the Big Damn Hero?
Your logic does not resemble our earth logic. Unfortunately.
Unfortunately, cause I had hoped Buffy should turn out to be the hero or
something in the last Buffy episode, ever.
Especially after her failure to have anything with the last battle to do
in S6.
But of course, I don't rate BtVS S6 -or even BtVS S7 - as anything near
what this show used to be all about.
And to make burt1112 previously snipped words mine:
"So the message that "Chosen" sends to women is this - you can't handle
power, you can't be a leader, and if you try, you'd better hope to god
that a man is around to bail your ass out, because otherwise it'll be
a disaster for you and everyone following you.
What a great message, eh?"
Yeah, and what a sad and ironic finale of a show of female empowerment.
--
Espen
Elisi
> > there might be some in the comments)
>
> > You will never convince anyone that you're right. We will never
> > convice you that you're wrong. Let's just leave it, m'kay? It's a TV
> > show!
>
> When did I ever say it wasn't?
>
> > (For me it's very simple: Spike is a Big. Damn. Hero. So is Buffy. The
> > end.)
>
> Spike's heroism (or lack thereof) has nothing to do with what we're
> discussing here.
Exactly.
Also, I find this discussion rather amusing. Because the *big*
discussion - the one that _still_ makes people tear their hair out all
over fandom - is whether Spike believed Buffy's 'I love you'. This
stuff about who saved the world is... peanuts in comparison. Like
talking about Buffy's hairdo. ;)
Elisi
> It's unclear what exactly "throwing the Universe out of whack" entails
> - a minor nudge with a specific tool, or godlike abilities? - and what
> power they have access to, so I'll defer to someone who's seen the
> rest of the show. But as mentioned here, it seems pretty wussy (and
> entirely confined to the W&H building) for a genuine threat to all
> existence. I think the problem for most people is that it doesn't
> make much sense for the "two champions can't occupy the same position
> in space" thing (which has nothing even resembling a Buffyverse
> precedent)
Now I'm going to shock everyone and agree with burt!
*waits for people to pick themselves up from the floor*
Well sort of. See I _do_ think that bringing Spike back (physically)
is what's throwing the universe. And I think it's because he saved the
world and earned the Champion cred. Unresolved prophecy and all that.
But Eve and Lindsey were the ones who found the amulet and worked the
mojo to bringing it about.
And as for a Buffyverse precedent... well I think there is one. And
it's called S7. Remember this:
BELJOXA'S EYE: "The mystical forces surrounding the Chosen line have
been irrevocably altered. Become... unstable. Vulnerable."
'Showtime'
The show never bothered to explain why or how the spell the Scoobies
used to resurrect Buffy created an opportunity for The First Evil to
rise. All we have is that snippet. Now the first time Buffy died, she
was brought back to life by Xander. But it was a natural way of
revival, and Buffy quite simply carried on. Later we found out that
her death had triggered the next Slayer, Kendra, to be called. When
Kendra was killed, Faith was called. So the line went on as it had
before, and - to put it bluntly - now Faith was The Slayer.
Essentially 'destiny' was done with Buffy after The Master killed her.
Any prophecies that there might be would now be Faith's to fulfil. So
now, Buffy is just _a_ Slayer - f.ex. when she dies the second time no
new Slayer is called. (I know that is never proven as such, but from
the knowledge we are given, I'd say it's a fact.)
Now when The Scoobies bring Buffy back to life in 'Bargaining' they
somehow 'irrevocably change' the mystical forces around the Slayer
line. Here's the spell (well the bit that Willow says out loud):
"Osiris, keeper of the gate, master of all fate, hear us.
Before time, and after. Before knowing and nothing.
Accept our offering. Know our prayer.
Osiris! Here lies the warrior of the people. Let her cross over.
Osiris, let her cross over! Aah...
[snake]
Osiris, release her!"
Note the phrase 'warrior of the people'. Now... what if that meant
that resurrected Buffy was The Slayer again - that somehow they split
the Slayer line, so now it runs through both of the living Slayers.
That would be an instability, and a big one.
And there's even a line in the original Chosen script to support this:
Buffy: "It's true none of you has the power Faith and I have. I think
both of us would have to die for a new Slayer to be called, and we
can't even be sure that girl is in this room."
Both of them! Joss says so! (Even if he cut the line. Boo!)
So in 'Destiny' we find out that if there are two candidates for a
prophecy, then the fabric of reality can begin to unravel, creating a
big, gaping tear in the balance of the universe. My guess is that
there being Two Slayers would be no different. Well there were no
telephones going bananas and no one started bleeding from their eyes,
but imbalances can manifest themselves in millions of different ways I
should imagine. And Beljoxa's Eyes says that it's a Slayer-shaped
disruption - the Slayer line is unstable and The First can now
extinguish The Chosen forever. How exactly that works is uncertain -
but it would seem obvious that The First stepped in through that
breach in the universe and made a space for itself, building an army,
getting ready to unleash hell - the Slayer might be just one girl, but
the magic surrounding her creation was obviously very powerful. With
that magic gone awry it's obvious that something nasty would jump at
the opportunity.
BELJOXA'S EYE: The First Evil did not cause the disruption, only
seized upon it to extinguish the lives of the chosen forever.
GILES: Then what has caused the disruption? What-what is responsible
for letting this happen?
BELJOXA'S EYE: The slayer.
But then in the end of course Buffy changes all that. The split in the
Slayer line in 'Bargaining' would foreshadow the Chosen spell - or
mirror it. If in 'Bargaining' the Slayer line was split in 2, then in
Chosen it was split out into hundreds (or thousands) of potentials.
Altering the Slayer lines in a much more fundamental way - changing
the rules of the game, rather than moving a piece in the wrong way.
(And why yes, I am *far* too obsessed with this verse than is healthy.
But it all makes sense - at least to me - and that makes me happy.)
Elisi
> <burt1...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
You're using logic again. The thing is far better addressed here:
NATRY
V urycrq fnir gur jbeyq, lbh xabj.
FCVXR
Yvxr V unira'g.
NATRY
Lrnu, ohg V'ir qbar vg n ybg zber.
FCVXR
Bu, cyrnfr.
NATRY
V pybfrq gur uryyzbhgu.
FCVXR
V'ir qbar gung.
NATRY
Lrnu, lbh jber n arpxynpr. Lbh xabj, V urycrq xvyy gur znlbe naq, hu,
naq Wnfzvar naq-
FCVXR
Qb gubfr ernyyl pbhag nf fniva' gur jbeyq?
NATRY
V fgbccrq Npnguyn. Gung fnirq gur jbeyq.
FCVXR
Ohssl ena lbh guebhtu jvgu n fjbeq.
NATRY
Lrnu, ohg V znqr ure qb vg. V fvtanyrq ure jvgu zl rlrf.
FCVXR
Fur xvyyrq lbh. V urycrq ure! Gung bar pbhagf nf zvar.
(They're both souled vampire heroes and thus both candidates for the
Shanshu. As you said, Angel never singlehandedly saved the word
either. Giving his life closing the hellmouth is a perfectly heroic
and noble way for Spike to earn his stripes.)
Elisi
> > What stupidity? Weirdness abounds in the Buffyverse. It's no more
> > illogical than demon eggs or singing oracle demons.
>
> I'm not calling the plot stupid or weird beyond the norm in the Buffyverse.
> The stupidity I am talking about is that of the characters, in particular in
> believing Sirk.
They weren't stupid - just human. They weren't focussed on Sirk, but
each other. Both Angel and Spike were only looking to find out how the
Shanshu could be twisted to fit them. Sirk was merely a tool for them
to hit each other with - and it was all beautifully set up by Eve.
Notice that their argument was already starting. If the prophecy had
mentioned dancing leprehauns, Angel would probaly have said that it
meant that it was about him, because he was Irish.
And as Anya once said - she used to tell the truth all the time when
she was evil! They had no reason to think that Sirk was lying, just
because he was an arrogant bastard.
Elisi
wrote:
> > So we see Spike blaming Angel for who he is - just like Connor.
> > Through neglect or teaching, they both think that Angel created them.
> > But - then they go different paths:
>
> > Angel: I didn't make you, Spike. I just opened up the door... and let
> > the real you out.
> > Spike: You never knew the real me! Too busy trying to see your own
> > reflection... praying there was someone as disgusting as you in the
> > world, so you could stand to live with yourself. Take a long look,
> > hero. I'm _nothing_ like you!
> > 'Destiny'
>
> Well, what do you think about that distinction? Was Angel tapping
> into something that was already there when molding Willy? Connor
> started off trying to deny that he was anything like his father, but
> he couldn't maintain that for very long.
I'm going to have to quote romanyg again:
------------
And when S5 aired, it all clicked for me, the part that I just
couldn't figure out about Spike, why he acted the way he did--the
insecure bravado. He's just as much a creation of Angelus's as
Drusilla ever was, one that Angel never admitted to, the one thing he
never took responsibility for. I could get all meta with the confusion
of Sire/Grandsire midway through the verse. But it all makes sense.
Maybe Angelus didn't bite William, but he took him on, he taught him.
Spike became a Project. Angelus wanted something:
SPIKE: You never knew the real me. Too busy trying to see your own
reflection... praying there was someone as disgusting as you in the
world, so you could stand to live with yourself. Take a long look,
hero. I'm nothing like you!
--"Destiny", AtS 5x08
But if Angelus merely wanted a reflection, he would have kept Penn,
that shallow copy that we met in "Somnambulist". Angelus discarded
Penn, abandoned him pretty much after he turned him. Penn was a failed
project. So Spike is wrong, Angelus didn't want a mirror. He had no
use for one. Angelus is a family man; Angelus wanted a legacy.
We only ever see Darla turn someone once. Angelus serves as her
companion, son and lover. It's Angelus who adds to the family. It's
Angelus who revels in the role of paterfamilias. And he values the
emotional pain of it. He wants Hell on Earth, and he wants it through
his family.
And so Drusilla was made to suit Angelus's aesthetic, to suit his
pleasure, to add to the family. So when newly-made William is brought
into the fold, Angelus begins the torment immediately.
[cue hands in sunlight scene]
So at the very first, Angelus uses pain and *sexual* threat to test
young William. And William responds by holding his ground. Test
passed. Whether Angelus ever made good on that initial threat is up to
speculation, but to suppose that he did do more than threaten would
not be wild speculation. Angelus would have had no moral qualms about
dallying with the lads, he certainly had no moral qualms against rape.
Sexual aggression as threat or act has little to do with sex, it has
to do with power. And power is always something that Angelus took. He
would have stood up and grabbed it out of Heaven if he could. He did
everything he could to mock God. I don't see why he wouldn't add
sodomy to the list.
But William can take a beating and come up laughing. He learns to goad
and manipulate Angelus in such a short time, as we can see in the
famous mineshaft scene from "Fool For Love". What good is the threat
then? Angelus would soon learn that what motivates Spike, what he
craves, is respect, love and approval. And Angelus either doles those
out sparingly or withholds them completely.
DRUSILLA (to Darla): My little Spike just killed himself a Slayer.
Angel looks him up and down, his face expressionless.
ANGEL: Congratulations. I guess that makes you one of us.
--"Fool For Love", BtVS 5x07
No longer Angelus, but Angel, he could not approve of Spike's kill.
But the dialogue fit in with his Angelus script. He would have said
the very same thing if he were Angelus. He would have meant that, no
matter what flamboyant thing Spike did, he would never be good enough.
And this would have been said subtly over and over again for twenty
years.
Angelus had taken on the role of father, and he only had one script to
draw from.
Father: Defy me now, you won't. - Not as long as I live.
Liam: You'll want to move away from the door now, father.
Father: Go through it, but don't ever expect to come back.
Liam: As you wish, father. Always, *just* as you wish.
Father: It's a son I wished for, a man, instead God gave me you! A
terrible disappointment.
Liam: Disappointment? A more dutiful son you couldn't have asked for.
My whole life you've told me in word, in glance, what it is you
required of me, and I've lived down to your every expectations, now
haven't I??
--"Prodigal", AtS 1x15
Now dutiful is not the first adjective that jumps to mind when I
picture Spike. But Angel, through many seasons, wasted no opportunity
in telling Spike that he was less than he was, that he was an idiot
and a moron. And considering Angelus's inability to suffer fools
gladly, does he believe what he's saying? No. In fact, when Spike is
introduced to us in "School Hard", Angel tells the Scoobies something
else entirely.
Willow: We can't run, that would be wrong. Could we hide? I mean, if
that Spike guy is leading the attack, (shudders) yeeehehehe.
Giles: Well, he can't be any worse than any other creature you've
faced.
Angel: (suddenly appears) He's worse. (they all look at him) Once he
starts something he doesn't stop until everything in his path is dead.
--"School Hard", BtVS 2x03
In fact, throughout the episode, Angel treats Spike with the utmost
respect, as if he had taught him well. He uses subterfuge and fails.
"You think you can fool me?!" Spike screams at him, not only because
Angel is on the side of the Slayer, but that he denied Spike that
respect, his due. Spike at this time is presented as a powerful,
intelligent creature whose only flaw is his impetuosity. The way Angel
talks him up, it's as if he takes a perverse sort of pride in that.
>From what we learn, subsequently, and that it's easy as an audience to
forget, Angelus is not gone. Angel is Angelus. The soul only serves as
will and conscience; and it could be argued that Angelus possessed the
extreme will prior to being souled. Angel is a demon with a demon's
emotions and a demon's desires. Part of him could very well be proud
of Spike. It's only later, perhaps because of that pride, that Angelus
derides Spike, uses the control mechanisms that he must have used the
century before. What we see is not pure derision, but a reminder of
place, of hierarchy. And we need to remember that Angelus tormented
two people that year, used the people around them to hurt them: Buffy
and Spike.
Perhaps Angel took a perverse sort of pride from Spike's later
betrayal too.
-----------------
That 's probably enough for now... *g* The Spike/Angel dynamic is
fascinating to say the least.
> > To quote kita0610:
>
> > 'From Drusilla's affections to Buffy's, from fighting on the side of
> > good to gaining a soul, Spike, since Day One, has followed in
> > "Daddy's" footsteps. And has resented the hell out of it.'
>
> Vampire relationships are weird that way in the Buffyverse, since
> sirees
>
> > > But the
> > > confluence of the flashbacks with the present day scenes clicks. In
> > > the nineteenth century parts, the nonverbal cues from all three actors
> > > sell William's anguish, and wow, do Angel and Dru seem to be enjoying
> > > themselves. Stating the obvious, Spike is still very much William at
> > > this point, triggered now to start developing his new persona. I'm
> > > still trying to toss over in my head how this disillusionment fits in
> > > with him continuing to hold the same William-esque eternal view of
> > > Drusilla for another century. Ideas, people?
>
> > He's very persistent. And it doesn't look like he accepts what Angelus
> > says, does it? He spends the next 20 years trying to prove Angelus
> > wrong. And then of course Angelus goes away.
>
> I don't know. It seems to me like he wishes he could reject these
> ideas, but that he thinks some of them may be right.
Now backtracking a little to your point about the event surrounding
Spike's mother - I think it all works very nicely together. When Dru
first turns him, he is still very much still William, thinking along
the same lines as when he was human - planning on bringing his mother
along to join in his newfound joy of slaughter. Quite simply carrying
on from where he was before - but _better_ (as he sees it). And then
of course his mother turns on him. This proves the first (and major)
catalyst to push William away from his previous life. Now he wants to
be different, to turn his back on what he was - the self that his
mother derided. And then Drusilla takes him to meet Angelus. And
suddenly he has someone to show him a new path - Angelus is 'a bloody
killing marvel' and William obviously wants to be just like him. (And
does a pretty good job of it too - second worst vampire on record!)
Now about accepting Angelus' word about 'nothing being his'... I think
this is where William/Spike and Angelus were so very different.
Angelus, although very attached to Darla, in an emergency would look
out for himself first and foremost. Spike was always willing to risk
his life for the woman he loved. I'm not sure that it meant that Dru
(or Buffy) belonged to him - more the other way round: _He_ belonged
to them.
Does that make sense? I think (as others have said) that Dru at that
point was beginning to truly understand that she really had chosen
well:
Angelus: "Well, if you're lonely, Dru, why don't you make yourself a
playmate?"
Dru: "I could. I could pick the wisest and bravest knight in all the
land - and make him mine forever with a kiss."
Just then a crying William bumps into them, dropping his notebook. He
bends down to pick it up then stumbles on.
William: "You - watch where you're going!"
Darla looking after him: "Or you could just take the first drooling
idiot that comes along."
'Darla'
Spike really was her wise and brave knight. And would have been hers
forever... except for one little blond Slayer (- and anyway Dru dumped
him first!).
> I don't know why the "you" and "me" are jumping out at you now given
> that there's never been a pronoun separation between the "then" and
> "now" versions of these characters, ever. I'd disagree that our hero
> tries to separate himself from his past to the extent that you seem to
> be suggesting (I'd throw in some recent quotes if I weren't at work,
> but I'm pretty sure I could find a line in which he uses "I" when
> referring to soulless actions in "Apocalypse, Nowish" [to Cordy] and
> "Players" [Re: Lilah] that would be appropriate), although you're
> right that it's coming out strongly this week when he's alone with his
> fellow deviant.
Oh he says 'I' plenty, but he still tries to show how different he is
from who he was then and how he isn't Angelus. In S4 especially (from
'Awakening'):
ANGEL
Doesn't make sense. I remember everything Angelus did, I did. Every
family butchered, every child slaughtered, every throat ripped out. I
remember every detail of all of it.
ANGEL
You have no idea what Angelus is, Wesley. All you know is what you've
read in books. You've never had the pleasure of his company, and
you're not going to.
To quote the_royal_anna who is far better at delving into these things
than I (and who is incendentally a very sweet and adorable person in
RL!):
----------
Angel can't afford to make this about what he did, or what he didn't
do. He damns himself if he takes responsibility for his past, and he
damns himself if he doesn't. Because if he says, "It wasn't me," he
lowers himself to the level of Angelus; Angelus who looks at the good
he's done and says, "It wasn't me; it was the soul." And that's
Angel's fear, isn't it? That this isn't him at all; that all this is
is a soul. Because without that soul, he is just another vampire. The
soul is all that stands between him and a history of evil.
But if he acknowledges his past, what then?
HOLTZ: You feel remorse. You feel remorse yet you can't express it.
ANGEL: You want me to say I'm sorry? How can I? It wouldn't mean a
thing.
'Benediction'
And he's right. He hasn't _grown_ into the person he is now - or
rather, he has, but I don't think he sees that. He only sees the soul,
the soul that is all that keeps him on the side of the good. It's a
terrible paradox. If he accepts the guilt of his past, he makes a
mockery of guilt, of repentance, because he feels it only because he
is crippled with a soul. If he denies it, he denies the truth.
---------
> > Exactly. And also shows why Spike is perfect this season - Angel is
> > losing his mission, his drive, and suddenly here's someone who can do
> > everything he can. It's like Groo - but magnified a million.
>
> Hadn't thought of that paralell at all, but yes, well said. Spike
> even moved in on his unattainable girl too.
Poor Angel.
Elisi
> This episode also well supports Elisi's suggestion of Spike as the prodigal
> son returned - unwelcome - and in contrast to Connor. And while I still
> don't think much has been done to point to Connor specifically, the whole
> idea of Spike as Angel's creation following in his footsteps does allow the
> notion of a Connor comparison to fall naturally into place. The real stand
> out moment on that front for me is Spike's line to Angel, "Too busy trying
> to see your own reflection." Isn't that largely what Angel attempted with
> Connor? Isn't the false family Angel gave Connor in Home, as Scythe pointed
> out, Angel's dream manifested - not Connor's dream?
Sadly I don't have time to reply properly to your post, but I did
write an essay on Spike's role on ATS recently, in case you wanted my
thoughts (I've quoted bits and pieces here on the newsgroup, so some
parts might be familiar):
http://elisi.livejournal.com/221671.html
(Lots of spoilers, obviously!)
William George Ferguson
<rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Ken from Chicago wrote:
>>
>> I suspect you didn't care for those Spidey comics where he chats up a storm
>> during fights.
>>
>
>I actually wrote Stan Lee, back about 1963, and told him that, IMO, his
>characters talked too darn much while they were right in the middle of
>the fight of their lives.
>
>Not that he listened, y'understand, but I *did* get an answer back (and
>I wish to hell I knew what ever happened to that little note. Probably
>over in the same pocket dimension that now houses my 5000+ baseball
>cards from the same time period...)
In the Marvel humor mag "Not Brand Ecchhh!", they did a crossover with
S.H.I.E.L.D. (Agent of SHEESH) and Tower's T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents (Agent of
BLUNDER). Dynamo (Dyna-Shmoe) had a great deal of trouble during the fight
scenes because he wasn't used to dealing with all those word balloons (I
believe Marie Severin drew it, I loved Marie Severin's work)
--
... and my sister is a vampire slayer, her best friend is a witch who
went bonkers and tried to destroy the world, um, I actually used to be
a little ball of energy until about two years ago when some monks
changed the past and made me Buffy's sister and for some reason, a big
klepto. My best friends are Leticia Jones, who moved to San Diego
because this town is evil, and a floppy eared demon named Clem.
(Dawn's fantasy of her intro speech in "Lessons", from the shooting script)
burt...@hotmail.com
> On Feb 12, 7:20 pm, burt1...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > It was specifically stated in this episode that having two souled
> > vampires was fine, but when Spike saved the world, it changed things.
>
> Yeah, just double-checked, and that's true. I said I wouldn't get
> into this repeating myself over and over thing, but it's worth
> remembering that saying one person "gave his life to save the world"
> doesn't inherently exclude anyone else's efforts (I'd say, if asked,
> that Spike saved the world. So did Buffy, Willow, Faith, Kennedy,
> Rona, etc.), and that this is coming from Eve, who has a specific
> reason to tell it that way.
Well, at the very least, it invalidates Spike's line in "Chosen" when
he said that all he did was clean-up. If all he did was clean-up, he
wouldn't get even partial credit for saving the world. So even in the
best-case scenario, this is yet another sloppy retcon. Someone really
needs to sit Joss down and tell him that internal consistency is a
*good* thing....
> > So if Eve and Lindsey have the kind of power it takes to change the
> > fundamental structure of the universe, why bother with the elaborate
> > head games? Why don't they simply wave their hands, blast Angel & Co.
> > out of existence, and take over everything themselves?
>
> It's unclear what exactly "throwing the Universe out of whack" entails
> - a minor nudge with a specific tool, or godlike abilities? - and what
> power they have access to, so I'll defer to someone who's seen the
> rest of the show.
Well, Gunn did find a "screaming vortex" when he tried to visit the
White Room. If Eve and Lindsey have the power to create a screaming
vortex, why not just create one right underneath Angel's desk? It'd be
a much more direct, and effective, method of dealing with him.
> But as mentioned here, it seems pretty wussy (and
> entirely confined to the W&H building) for a genuine threat to all
> existence.
Maybe they just didn't have the budget to make a better apocalypse?
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> used to resurrect Buffy created an opportunity for The First Evil to
> rise. All we have is that snippet. Now the first time Buffy died, she
> was brought back to life by Xander. But it was a natural way of
> revival, and Buffy quite simply carried on. Later we found out that
one thing it showed was the magic around the slayer
was not somehow diluted by the existence of two slayers
both kendra and buffy then daith and buffy were of similar abilities
if there can be two slayers
why three or four or all of them?
meow arf meow - they are performing horrible experiments in space
major grubert is watching you - beware the bakalite
impeach the bastard - the airtight garage has you neo
William George Ferguson
>On Feb 12, 9:09 pm, "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>> On Feb 12, 7:20 pm, burt1...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>> > It was specifically stated in this episode that having two souled
>> > vampires was fine, but when Spike saved the world, it changed things.
>>
>> Yeah, just double-checked, and that's true. I said I wouldn't get
>> into this repeating myself over and over thing, but it's worth
>> remembering that saying one person "gave his life to save the world"
>> doesn't inherently exclude anyone else's efforts (I'd say, if asked,
>> that Spike saved the world. So did Buffy, Willow, Faith, Kennedy,
>> Rona, etc.), and that this is coming from Eve, who has a specific
>> reason to tell it that way.
>
>Well, at the very least, it invalidates Spike's line in "Chosen" when
>he said that all he did was clean-up. If all he did was clean-up, he
>wouldn't get even partial credit for saving the world. So even in the
>best-case scenario, this is yet another sloppy retcon. Someone really
>needs to sit Joss down and tell him that internal consistency is a
>*good* thing....
Just because a character says something doesn't mean that it's true, it
doesn't mean the author thinks it's true, it doesn't even mean the
character thinks it's true. The character Spike said two mutually
exclusive things. The character Spike has been shown in previous episodes
to misunderstand, to misinterpret, and to flat out lie. Having him say one
thing to one person and another thing to another person is not a sloppy
retcon and is not bad continuity. It's Spike saying different things to
different characters for different purposes.
And that especially applies when an established evil character like Eve
says something that is clearly meant to manipulate the good guys.
burt...@hotmail.com
wrote:
Well, yes. That's what I've been saying all along. Spike didn't just
do "clean-up" in the battle in "Chosen." He bailed Buffy and the
Slayers out and won the fight for them.
What I'm saying here is that, if you believe that all Spike did in
"Chosen" was "clean-up," then the reveal here that he saved the world
(which is not just something Spike says, it's objectively backed up by
the universe going nuts) is a retcon, and a very sloppy one at that.
Wouter Valentijn
>>>> On 11 Feb 2007 22:58:45 -0800, burt1...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>>> On Feb 11, 4:58 pm, alphakitten <alphakitt...@netscape.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Feb 11, 11:11 am, "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>> burt1...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>> And here we get independent confirmation that Spike did,
>>>>>>>>> indeed, save the world. Independent confirmation that he, with
>>>>>>>>> his amulet ex machina, was the one who destroyed the Ubervamp
>>>>>>>>> army in "Chosen," not the Slayers, as some people around here
>>>>>>>>> have tried to claim.
>>
>>>>>>>> attacking army, and Spike closed the Hellmouth for good. I
>>>>>>>> think they all deserve full world-saving credit.
>>
>>>>>>>> Participating in this discussion one last time, I'm sorry that
>>>>>>>> "Chosen" wasn't successful in converying what it was going for
>>>>>>>> to everyone. It's clear to me on that count, at least.
>>
>>>>>>>> SPIKE: No, you've beat them back. It's for me to do the
>>>>>>>> cleanup.
>>
>>>>>>> And, again, if all Spike did was cleanup, he wouldn't get credit
>>>>>>> from higher powers for saving the world.
>>
>>>>>>> I can sort of see being fuzzy about what happened in "Chosen"
>>>>>>> (though it was always perfectly clear to me - the Slayers only
>>>>>>> killed 50 or so Ubervamps out of thousands), but here, it's
>>>>>>> clear and unambiguous. Spike saved the world. Therefore, Spike
>>>>>>> destroyed the Ubervamp army. Not the Slayers.
>>
>>>>>> that Spike got to do the clean up. Like AoQ said, it was
>>>>>> collaborative, clearly and unambiguously so.
>>
>>>>> For the 949th time, it was clearly and unambiguously *not*
>>>>> Eve doesn't say that Spike *helped* save the world, she says he
>>>>> *saved* the world.
>>
>>>> deliberate and calculated attempt to setup a confrontation,
>>>> so what she says carries little weight.
>>
>>> Of course, there's a lot more going on here than just Eve telling
>>> them something. The universe is going completely out of whack here.
>>> Oh, but wait - I suppose the universe itself was lying, too?
>>
>> So, Eve speaks for the entire universe?
>
> The universe speaks for the entire universe. Remember the big
> screaming vortex that Gunn ran into?
Which, as others have pointed out, was part of the con.
--
Wouter Valentijn
www.wouter.cc
www.nksf.nl
http://www.nksf.scifics.com/Nom20062007.html
www.zeppodunsel.nl
liam=mail
"Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!"
Order given by David Farragut at the Battle of Mobile Bay
William George Ferguson
The 'reveal' that he saved the world came from him and Eve. There is no
reason to assume their statements are more true than his earlier statement
to Fred. The 'objectively backed up' stuff was specifically established as
being a puppet show engineered by Lesley and Eve to lend verisimilitude to
an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative. The universe wasn't going
nuts, they just faked the universe going nuts, and only in the W&H
building, specifically to manipulate Angel and Spike.
One Bit Shy
news:1171393317.9...@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Two distinct things happened in Chosen.
An army of vampires was defeated. The hellmouth was closed.
The Slayer army did the former. Spike did the latter.
No retcon. And lots of credit to go around.
OBS
One Bit Shy
> Also, I find this discussion rather amusing. Because the *big*
> discussion - the one that _still_ makes people tear their hair out all
> over fandom - is whether Spike believed Buffy's 'I love you'. This
> stuff about who saved the world is... peanuts in comparison. Like
> talking about Buffy's hairdo. ;)
People don't wonder if Buffy believed it?
OBS
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
>
> An army of vampires was defeated. The hellmouth was closed.
>
> The Slayer army did the former. Spike did the latter.
if not for robin
the slayer army wouldve gone down
in the sinkhole that ate sunnydale
so the real point of the story is
women cannot be trusted as drivers
ultimately they need a studly african-american man to save them
> No retcon. And lots of credit to go around.
i think the subtext is rapidly becoming a married with children script
Elisi
> On Feb 12, 12:31 pm, "Elisi" <elis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 12, 5:21 pm, burt1...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 12, 12:41 am, "Elisi" <elis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Feb 12, 6:56 am, burt1...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > > On Feb 11, 12:28 pm, "Elisi" <elis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> > > > > > > On Feb 11, 11:11 am, "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com>
> > > > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > burt1...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > And here we get independent confirmation that Spike did, indeed, save
> > > > > > > > > the world. Independent confirmation that he, with his amulet ex
> > > > > > > > > machina, was the one who destroyed the Ubervamp army in "Chosen," not
> > > > > > > > > the Slayers, as some people around here have tried to claim.
>
> > > > > > > > It was a collaborative effort. The Slayers fought back the attacking
> > > > > > > > army, and Spike closed the Hellmouth for good. I think they all
> > > > > > > > deserve full world-saving credit.
>
> > > > > > > > Participating in this discussion one last time, I'm sorry that
> > > > > > > > "Chosen" wasn't successful in converying what it was going for to
> > > > > > > > everyone. It's clear to me on that count, at least.
>
> > > > > > > > SPIKE: No, you've beat them back. It's for me to do the cleanup.
>
> > > > > > > And, again, if all Spike did was cleanup, he wouldn't get credit from
> > > > > > > higher powers for saving the world.
>
> > > > > > > I can sort of see being fuzzy about what happened in "Chosen" (though
> > > > > > > it was always perfectly clear to me - the Slayers only killed 50 or so
> > > > > > > Ubervamps out of thousands), but here, it's clear and unambiguous.
> > > > > > > Spike saved the world. Therefore, Spike destroyed the Ubervamp army.
> > > > > > > Not the Slayers.
>
Something just occurred to me. As in, I don't think this was a point
you ever considered: It was _Buffy_ who defeated The First itself. Not
Spike.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> On 11.02.2007 21:11, Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> > SPIKE: No, you've beat them back. It's for me to do the cleanup.
>
> So, because the Big Damn Hero gives his bruised little sidekick credit
> for helping him a bit, he is not the Big Damn Hero?
>
> Your logic does not resemble our earth logic. Unfortunately.
>
> Unfortunately, cause I had hoped Buffy should turn out to be the hero or
> something in the last Buffy episode, ever.
I'm sick to death of repeating the same points over and over about
"Chosen" (and OBS came up with better versions of both the in-depth
rebuttal and the concise rebuttal). But two things:
1) Buffy and Spike are both heroes.
2) Does your use of the BDH phrase mean that you're finally had a
chance to watch _Firefly_, or are you just absorbing the lingo from
fans?
-AOQ
Elisi
> <burt1...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Sorry - _three_ things:
1) Buffy defeated The First.
2) The Slayer army and Spike defeated The First's army.
3) Spike closed the hellmouth.
One Bit Shy
That's the best rationalization of the Slayer disruption and the First's
plan that I've seen. Finding the potential significance within Willow's
spell really helps. Kudos.
Alas, it doesn't tell me much about the current story. The notion of two
"potential" candidates for Shanshu causing some kind of rift in reality is
much easier to grasp to begin with. And though I think anyone should be
skeptical of how likely such a thing is, I don't have an issue with the
notion that such a thing might be possible. If I thought the story pointed
to that as the actual cause of what went on in Destiny, I'd be OK with it.
(Although there are some squishy details that would have to be worked out
once that path was committed to.)
But the thing is, the story I saw on the screen points towards a scam. The
speculative logic you just used would be the kind of thing Lindsey would
work out himself so as to sell the con.
The idea in a confidence game - the reason it's called "confidence" - is to
get the mark to believe something false with a true conviction or
confidence. That something is not the object of the con, just the mechanism
by which the mark can be motivated to act against his own interests - which
he will do with the confidence of someone who "knows" the truth. That
invented truth works best when it's founded on some internal characteristic
of the mark - so that it appears to fit what the mark is already predisposed
to believe.
Lindsey is plenty smart enough to see how Shanshu is a natural source of
conflict between two ensouled vampires, each of whom strongly tie their
identity to their role as champion. A scenario concocted to look like it's
caused by that naturally existing conflict works because it validates what
they already want to believe. Once they accept that premise, the rest
appears to follow naturally to them - effectively distracting them from such
thin ideas as the cup of torment sitting unattended in an abandoned opera
house in Nevada. Or a universe out of balance manifesting as W&H employees
getting bloody eyes. They don't notice such things because they believe
they already know the central fact that's driving everything. They aren't
ready to conceptualize the notion of being used themselves, or that things
like shutting down the conduit to the Senior Partners, shutting down the
computer systems within W&H, and shipping Angel out of town might be the
real object.
Of course we don't know what Lindsey's really after either. Evidently this
is a long term game. As he says, this is just a start.
But we as viewers can see what Angel and Spike can't - enough to recognize
the con. We can see that a universe out of whack strangely centers on one
building in L.A. - even after Spike and Angel (the supposed center of the
problem) leave it. We can see Eve using one of the few manifestations
(bloody eyed anger) to deflect attention from herself by getting Gunn to
attack her and make her look like a victim. We can see that Eve - who we
know is otherwise perpetrating a fraud - is the one who initially asserts
the Shanshu connection. And that it's Eve who says what the Senior Partners
did to end the crisis. And that it's Eve who claims the imbalance continues
anyway.
Because Eve says so is a less than convincing reason to believe the claim.
Especially since the only things we can actually verify are shown to be a
con.
OBS
One Bit Shy
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mair_fheal-2DC4F...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
>> Two distinct things happened in Chosen.
>>
>> An army of vampires was defeated. The hellmouth was closed.
>>
>> The Slayer army did the former. Spike did the latter.
>
> if not for robin
> the slayer army wouldve gone down
> in the sinkhole that ate sunnydale
>
> so the real point of the story is
> women cannot be trusted as drivers
> ultimately they need a studly african-american man to save them
<slaps forehead> Of course! How could it have eluded me?
>> No retcon. And lots of credit to go around.
>
> i think the subtext is rapidly becoming a married with children script
They'll have to stop by the shoe store when they go to the mall to
celebrate.
OBS
One Bit Shy
I suppose. She got it out of her face at least. There's some nebulous
aspects to The First's defeat - including the possibility that it's really
only the product of 2 & 3. Though Willow's spell must have messed up its
plans too. And how *did* Buffy get it out of her face?
Elisi
> "Elisi" <elis...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Thank you. :)
See it just doesn't bother me. If it's a fullblown scam or a halfway
one makes no difference to my enjoyment of the episode. Nyfb Gur
Pvepyr bs gur Oynpx Gubea znxr Natry fvta njnl gur funafuh ng gur raq,
fb rira vs gurer _jnf_ n grne va ernyvgl, vg jbhyq gura or fbja hc. Be
fbzrguvat. Yvxr Wbff V qba'g pner gbb zhpu nobhg gur jbeyq ohvyqvat
naq cybg nf ybat nf gur punenpgref ner vagrerfgvat.
One Bit Shy
After doing such a bang-up job of sussing out the nuances of the Slayer
rift, you don't care about this? Color me skeptical. <g>
Actually, it's not at all that I care which story is true. Things could be
done with both approaches. It's more that it's such a cool part of the
story being told that it's a shame not to dive into it.
OBS
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
but not the old mall
nobody shops there anymore
Elisi
> "Elisi" <elis...@gmail.com> wrote in message
No - #2 and 3 followed on from 1. The Slayers were faltering, and then
Buffy got stabbed...
> Though Willow's spell must have messed up its
> plans too.
A bit...
First!Buffy: Oh no... ow! Mommy, this mortal wound is all...itchy. You
pulled a nice trick. You came pretty close to smacking me down. What
more do you want?
I'm going to quote the shooting script now, because I *love* Joss'
descriptions:
******
Buffy pulls herself up on her hands, fury in her eyes.
BUFFY
I want you... to get out of my _face_.
The First looks suddenly worried.
SLO MO: Buffy rises. Sweaty, bloodied, hair in her face, but nothing
but resolve in her eyes. The First is nowhere in sight as she takes a
step forward, two, stumbling, hunched steps...
Rona sees her and throws her the scythe. Buffy catches it. Stands a
little straighter.
And SCREAMS, and swings the back of the axe like it's a bat, knocking
five vamps back and over the edge in one blow. Sauron himself would
be, like, "dude..."
ANGLE: The pile of vamps on Faith flies back as she kicks out -- Faith
kips up, also bloodied, also unbroken.
And the girls turn the tide, forcing the vamps back, many of them
falling over the edge -- and at least one Slayer going with them.
ANGLE: SPIKE stumbles under the Seal opening.
SPIKE
Oh, bollocks.
*******
We see that _everything_ springs from that moment! The tide turns, and
then the amulet activates. It's all connected! (And now _there's_ a
keyword for S7!)
> And how *did* Buffy get it out of her face?
Buffy: "I'm beyond tired. I'm beyond scared. I'm standing on the mouth
of hell, and it is gonna swallow me whole. And it'll choke on me.
We're not ready? They're not ready. They think we're gonna wait for
the end to come, like we always do. I'm done waiting. They want an
apocalypse? Oh, we'll give 'em one. Anyone else who wants to run, do
it now. 'Cause we just became an army. We just declared war. From now
on, we won't just face our worst fears, we will seek them out. We will
find them, and cut out their hearts one by one, until The First shows
itself for what it really is. And I'll kill it myself. There is only
one thing on this earth more powerful than evil, and that's us!"
'Bring On The Night'
_That's_ my Buffy! Just like Spike in Destiny (and Hellbound) she wins
by sheer willpower and determination. Reality bends to desire.
Rowan Hawthorn
> "mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
> <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:mair_fheal-2DC4F...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
>>> Two distinct things happened in Chosen.
>>>
>>> An army of vampires was defeated. The hellmouth was closed.
>>>
>>> The Slayer army did the former. Spike did the latter.
>> if not for robin
>> the slayer army wouldve gone down
>> in the sinkhole that ate sunnydale
>>
>> so the real point of the story is
>> women cannot be trusted as drivers
>> ultimately they need a studly african-american man to save them
>
> <slaps forehead> Of course! How could it have eluded me?
Probably because the idea that not everyone can actually *drive* a
school bus didn't strike you as a particularly sexist/racist concept?
Scads of people, male *or* female, can't safely drive a sub-compact
*car* under stress, let alone a 60-passenger monstrosity the likes of
which they've almost certainly never been behind the wheel of before in
their lives (I've driven a school bus; if I'm the only one in a crowd of
people who *has*, I'm sure as hell not going to select someone at
random, *especially* someone who's just about old enough to get their
learner's permit, and say, "Here, you can drive...")
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
more importantly buffy doesnt defeat anything by herslef
she shares her power and in that way gets enough help to win
the whole point was the weight the world was no longer on one girl alone anymore
the burden is shared
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> One Bit Shy wrote:
> > "mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
> > <mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:mair_fheal-2DC4F...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> >>> Two distinct things happened in Chosen.
> >>>
> >>> An army of vampires was defeated. The hellmouth was closed.
> >>>
> >>> The Slayer army did the former. Spike did the latter.
> >> if not for robin
> >> the slayer army wouldve gone down
> >> in the sinkhole that ate sunnydale
> >>
> >> so the real point of the story is
> >> women cannot be trusted as drivers
> >> ultimately they need a studly african-american man to save them
> >
> > <slaps forehead> Of course! How could it have eluded me?
>
> Probably because the idea that not everyone can actually *drive* a
> school bus didn't strike you as a particularly sexist/racist concept?
>
> Scads of people, male *or* female, can't safely drive a sub-compact
oh my god you killed mrs crabtree
you bastard
Don Sample
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
And that snippet doesn't say that it was Buffy's second resurrection
that did it. The big change in the Slayer line came 4 years earlier,
when Kendra was called.
> Now the first time Buffy died, she
> was brought back to life by Xander. But it was a natural way of
> revival, and Buffy quite simply carried on.
With a second Slayer. The line was broken.
> Later we found out that
> her death had triggered the next Slayer, Kendra, to be called. When
> Kendra was killed, Faith was called. So the line went on as it had
> before, and - to put it bluntly - now Faith was The Slayer.
Faith was a Slayer. So was Buffy.
> Essentially 'destiny' was done with Buffy after The Master killed her.
> Any prophecies that there might be would now be Faith's to fulfil.
Then why did the First spend so much time messing with Buffy? It was
trying to get her killed from the middle of season 3.
> So
> now, Buffy is just _a_ Slayer - f.ex. when she dies the second time no
> new Slayer is called. (I know that is never proven as such, but from
> the knowledge we are given, I'd say it's a fact.)
Every time anyone bothered to mention it, for the six years following
Buffy's first death, it was assumed that when Buffy died, a new Slayer
would be called.
The topic of a new Slayer being called by Buffy's second death was never
even mentioned. Some people interpret this as "they never said a new
Slayer was called, therefore she wasn't." I say that "they never said a
new Slayer wasn't called, therefore she was," is just as valid (or
invalid) an interpretation.
>
> Now when The Scoobies bring Buffy back to life in 'Bargaining' they
> somehow 'irrevocably change' the mystical forces around the Slayer
> line. Here's the spell (well the bit that Willow says out loud):
That it was the Scoobies who did it was an assumption on their part, one
for which they had little supporting evidence.
>
> "Osiris, keeper of the gate, master of all fate, hear us.
> Before time, and after. Before knowing and nothing.
> Accept our offering. Know our prayer.
> Osiris! Here lies the warrior of the people. Let her cross over.
> Osiris, let her cross over! Aah...
> [snake]
> Osiris, release her!"
>
> Note the phrase 'warrior of the people'. Now... what if that meant
> that resurrected Buffy was The Slayer again - that somehow they split
> the Slayer line, so now it runs through both of the living Slayers.
> That would be an instability, and a big one.
>
> And there's even a line in the original Chosen script to support this:
>
> Buffy: "It's true none of you has the power Faith and I have. I think
> both of us would have to die for a new Slayer to be called, and we
> can't even be sure that girl is in this room."
>
> Both of them! Joss says so! (Even if he cut the line. Boo!)
"I think both of us." Buffy doesn't know, she's guessing, and to quote
Willow from the same episode: "You know, Buffy: sweet girl, not that
bright." She seems to have forgotten that Faith was called when Kendra
died.
Even if it is true, the split still happened back when Kendra was called.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Elisi
anges <mair_fh...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > 1) Buffy and Spike are both heroes.
>
> more importantly buffy doesnt defeat anything by herslef
Except The First...
Don Sample
> So in 'Destiny' we find out that if there are two candidates for a
> prophecy, then the fabric of reality can begin to unravel, creating a
> big, gaping tear in the balance of the universe. My guess is that
> there being Two Slayers would be no different. Well there were no
> telephones going bananas and no one started bleeding from their eyes,
> but imbalances can manifest themselves in millions of different ways I
> should imagine. And Beljoxa's Eyes says that it's a Slayer-shaped
> disruption - the Slayer line is unstable and The First can now
> extinguish The Chosen forever. How exactly that works is uncertain -
> but it would seem obvious that The First stepped in through that
> breach in the universe and made a space for itself, building an army,
> getting ready to unleash hell - the Slayer might be just one girl, but
> the magic surrounding her creation was obviously very powerful. With
> that magic gone awry it's obvious that something nasty would jump at
> the opportunity.
The thing about the Shanshu prophecy that everyone has conveniently
forgotten is that is has already come to pass. Angel became human back
in season 1, but then he threw it away. The PTBs are probably laughing
their asses off over how everyone is wasting their time over it, after
it's too late.
burt...@hotmail.com
wrote:
That interpretation is directly contradicted by Eve's dialogue in the
final scene. If your interpretation was the correct one, Eve would
have said something like this:
"I still can't believe how gullible Angel and his crew are. A few
little parlor tricks, an illusion or two, and that's all it takes to
make them believe the universe has been thrown off balance."
But she didn't. This is what she said:
"You know, funny thing about throwing the universe out of whack... not
as fun as it sounds."
Eve's line there makes absolutely no sense if the whole thing was
simple trickery from her and Lindsey; therefore, the universe being
thrown out of whack was quite real.
One Bit Shy
news:qr2dnSwat-i...@giganews.com...
OK. I have no personal experience driving a bus. But I do know that I
wouldn't want Buffy driving it.
OBS
Rowan Hawthorn
I rest my case... :-)
burt...@hotmail.com
> <burt1...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Even if we grant the utterly absurd premise that killing fifty or so
members of an army that's thousands strong constitutes defeating said
army, there's still a big problem with your view of things - namely,
that the hellmouth was not a threat to the world, and thus, closing it
would not constitute saving the world.
Under certain very limited circumstances in the past, the hellmouth
drew close to opening, and then and only then was it presented as an
apocalyptic threat. The rest of the time? Not a threat to the world.
Buffy and her friends lived on top of it for seven years and, except
for the rare occasions previously mentioned, not once did any of them
say that the hellmouth was going to bring about the end of the world.
There was only one apocalyptic threat presented in "Chosen" - the army
of Ubervamps. Now, leaving aside the silliness of the idea that a few
thousands Ubervamps were somehow going to end the world, the fact
remains that they were the only world-ending threat on the table in
"Chosen." Not the hellmouth. If all Spike did was close the hellmouth,
at best, all he could be said to have done was make one small part of
the world a little bit safer.
But that's not what was said about him. What was said (and backed up
by the behavior of the universe itself) was that he saved the world.
Well, if that's the case, that means that he *must* have at least had
a hand in destroying the only world-ending threat presented in
"Chosen" - the Ubervamp army. And it was obvious, on-screen, who
destroyed the *vast* majority of it, so....
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
the oracles didnt act as if this was the way the prophecy was supposed to work
but more of a fluke
then again the oracles got kind of surprised themselves
Don Sample
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>
> OK. I have no personal experience driving a bus. But I do know that I
> wouldn't want Buffy driving it.
>
> OBS
Why not?
There is a lot of fanon about Buffy being a bad driver, with little to
back it up. We haven't seen all that much of her driving. The one
accident that she was in, in "Band Candy," wasn't her fault. The car
that hit her ran a red light.
Being in a car with her might be a frightening experience, but that
doesn't mean she's a bad driver. I know some guys who have taken a ride
with the guy who won the 2006 Targa Newfoundland rally, and they say
that that was a frightening experience, but part of it is because the
guy is a good driver.
Stephen Tempest
>There is a lot of fanon about Buffy being a bad driver, with little to
>back it up. We haven't seen all that much of her driving. The one
>accident that she was in, in "Band Candy," wasn't her fault. The car
>that hit her ran a red light.
Although Snyder thought she drove like a spaz...
True, we haven't seen much of her driving - but every single example
that I can think of has her driving *badly*.
For example, in 'Him', it's actually explicit in the stage directions:
****
EXT. SUNNYDALE HIGH SCHOOL - PARKING LOT - NIGHT
BUFFY
Driving (badly) into a parking spot in front of the high school, where
a single light is on in one window. She SCREECHES the car to a stop
and jumps out.
****
In 'Who Are You?', when she's trying to escape from the Council hit
squad she's nervously reassuring herself ("Okay, I'm good at
this...drive!") as she fumbles to start the van then screeches out.
Any more? Because every scene I can think of where Buffy's in a
vehicle other than those, someone else is driving. :)
Stephen
Stephen Tempest
>mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote:
>> more importantly buffy doesnt defeat anything by herslef
>
>Except The First...
Everybody has to defeat The First by themselves...
Stephen
(And conversely, nobody can defeat The First without help)
alphakitten
Slayer army kept Spike alive long enough for the clean up to begin. No
slayer army, no clean up.
>
> But that's not what was said about him. What was said (and backed up
> by the behavior of the universe itself)
OMG...
~Angel