AOQ Review 6-1: "Bargaining"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Six, Episode 1: "Bargaining"
(or "Don't make Dead Slayer angry")
Writers: Marti Noxon (Part I) & David Fury (Part II)
Director: David Grossman
Behold, BTVS's one and only two-hour episode. In my world of DVDs,
it'll be treated as a single show, but gets counted twice when
converting ratings to numbers and such. Anyone who objects to this,
please take in an earful of the sound of me not caring.
Well, here we are again. If nothing else, "Bargaining" brings back
the series' love of playing-with-the-audience teasers. First we're
running through the graveyard and worrying that the show's lighting
budget has been cut back to Early Years levels, then we see that
Spike's become a vampire hunter (well, he's patrolled a few times
before, but this makes it seem like a regular thing), gradually
expanding into a somewhat uneven whole-Scoobies effort with a few
moments of real comedy ("it was supposed to confuse him, but ... it
just kinda made him peppy. It's not supposed to mix with anything, you
think he might be taking prescription medication?" "[rolls eyes]
Yeah, that must be it." "Good god, I hope he doesn't try to
operate heavy machinery.") And then Buffy pops up too, as part of
the group. How long did it take everyone to figure out that it was the
robot? The end-of teaser Buffybot moments are simultaneously kinda
entertaining (word salad, verbatim repetitions of a few lines of
dialogue) and kinda off-putting as the viewer is left to think over the
implications of having had this robot around all summer.
Robo-Buffy certainly eats up a lot of screen time in the early parts of
"Bargaining," and I don't think the episode is better for it.
First of all, it gets old. More to the point, the show doesn't do
much to address the creepiness that's inherent in keeping this thing
around the house, in the place of their dead friend/relative, choosing
instead to use it for almost pure comic relief. At least they have two
reasons for not disposing of it - Slaying vampires and Dawn's legal
status - and the stuff I mentioned doesn't go totally ignored, but
it's still too uncomfortable a situation to laugh at much. So
that's one thing. Another is something that didn't seem like an
issue before given that the Buffybot has been apparently destroyed in
all three of its appearances thus far. But here we're meant to
believe that with proper programming, a robot, and one constructed in a
matter of weeks no less, can fight almost as well as a Slayer. That
doesn't sit right with me at all in terms of the show's mystique.
The One Girl In All The World premise only works if you stick with it.
Fortunately, it seems like there's a good chance that the show is
finally done with this stupid thing.
What kind of parent-teacher day has kids and parents doing anything
together?
Backtracking for a second, the opening titles continue to play with
expectations, as well as providing a nice new badass shot of Buffy at
the end. Where's Willow?! She's not in her usual spot, but we saw
her! Oh, okay, she gets an "and," but then what about Giles?! I
honestly had no clue that the show might ditch Rupert, who seems more
essential to its format than any past departing cast members. I feel
this way to the point where I'm wondering if this is a fake-out -
Willow does say that he'll come back if Buffy does, after all. In
any case, Special Guest Star Head does have his character leave town
and isn't seen in the second half of the show. At first blush it's
nice to see someone trying to change up his life, but when thinking
about it more I'm not really sure why he's going to London. The
implication would be that Buffy was the reason he was staying in
Sunnydale. But this is a very different situation than last year in
BvD; there he thought the world didn't need him because it was in the
hands of a capable Slayer, who didn't need him. Whereas here, with
the only known Slayer in prison, the word needs him more than ever.
And it's not (or shouldn't be) a Watcher thing, since his guilt
over Buffy's death extends to him blaming the whole institution of
Watching. Perhaps he's running instead of moving on, rather than
because of it. I do like the attempt to slip out quietly.
Hairstyle update: both Xander and Anya look pretty good in the new era.
I don't know if the fact that they haven't told people about their
engagement is a bad sign for this couple, or whether it's just meant
to tie in to the general lack of momentum on the Slaypack's part.
Like pretty much everyone else except Giles, they've shown a
reluctance to do anything that resembles change. Again, part of it
ties into the need to protect the town in the absence of a real Slayer,
but even after months, they don't seem to do or think about much
other than Buffy. There's past precedent for this, but given how
long the episode goes before they bring her back, all I can say is that
the gang have never seemed more like The Sidekicks, incapable of
carrying a show without their main character.
At first it's a bit jarring to see Spike as Dawn's devoted
bodyguard, until one thinks it through and sees that it does kinda make
sense. I wonder if she ever gets a moment away from him. No matter
what ATS may occasionally find it useful to claim, I'd say vampires
have the capacity to change some, yes? The thing about Buffy having
him promise to take care of Dawn back in TG was that it was an easy
scene to ignore, given that heroes always say stuff like this before
the big fight, and Spike would've by TV rules seemed more likely to
die than Buffy. Now in the aftermath, he's going to live up to it
with an intensity/obsession that follows the tone of how he was with
all things Buffy. But what about the dangers of secondhand smoke, huh?
That scene featuring Xander and Willow having a disagreement about
proceeding, once resurrecting Buffy is threatening to become an actual
plan... I can see what it was trying for, and the motivations largely
make sense, but it doesn't quite hold together for me, and I'm a
bit hard-pressed to explain why. Willow's tears at the end seem to
lack the proper buildup too. I do think it's worth noting that
significant others get to be part of this club while other Scoobies
don't. It's also worth musing that Xander's reaction suggests
that he wasn't sure he wanted to be part of this, and hoped the
problem would go away if he ignored it (i.e. Willow would give up).
Given the title of the series, we know that Willow's spell will work
after the interruption, so that's a dose of the suspense that is not.
But I'd like to mention some of the individual moments leading up to
the resurrection magic, because there's some strong cinematography
there. The scene by the pond with Willow sacrificing the fawn is
beautifully shot, perfect as a counterpart to the sudden violence.
It's important to the episode that this be seen as real deep dark
magic, and I think it succeeds there. The bug-like bulges under her
skin help with that too, as does Xander's reaction to the snake.
Finally, I'm a big fan of the visual of the decaying corpse fading
into a living Buffster, and her subsequent panicked attempts to claw
her way out.
I may not make it a major recurring punchline throughout the review,
but my overall opinion of "Bargaining" is that it feels like one
episode's worth of material padded out into a double episode. And
that's never more prevalent a feeling than with the villains of the
week, Heck's Demons. With the motorcycle-gang personas and even
finding a way to bring the draw-and-quarter into the Buffyverse,
they'd be ideal for a normal-length show. In a movie-length setting,
they're pretty boring by the end, especially the fights that just go
on and on.
Buffy doesn't appear in the flesh until about midway through the
show, and she's front and center for the rest, albeit only getting
about three lines of dialogue. On the plus side, not everything's
happily back to normal, and it's unclear whether it'll ever be. On
the minus side, it's hard to get too invested in this, and I think
the reason is that the show has pulled back from Buffy's experience.
She's been through several layers of hell before, but then the viewer
was always with her. The only time I can remember having a problem
with getting into her head is "When She Was Bad," and even there we
do tend to know what she's experienced, and by the end of that
episode, her behavior is fully understandable. The rest of the time,
the viewer has always shared the hero's journey. This, on the other
hand, is more like what happened to Angel in S3. We only have a vague
idea of what she's been through, and how she's perceiving the
world. S3 could get away with this, because Angel wasn't the main
character, and only had to be seen for a few minutes each episode,
almost always from the hero's POV. Here, since the show's about
Buffy and the world revolves around her, they're going to have to let
us in.
I don't want to discount the power of Gellar's haunted look in
keeping these scenes alive. So, not that that isn't working for the
show. It is. A lot. And the old trick of having Buffy run from
fights, and then recover her action-hero ways, continues to work
reasonably well. But ultimately I don't think it's enough for
compelling TV if there's nothing else going on. Dawn's speech to
her sister atop the tower is apparently meant as an emotional climax to
all that, but seems remarkably flat, which may or may not be part of
the point. Here I don't know how others feel, but one thing that
damaged the scene for ne was that Dawn was the one opposite Buffy.
I've grown to like her, and she's had some powerful moments with
her sister in the past, but ultimately we've known her for less than
a year. From the viewer's perspective, she's not one of the people
who've been by Buffy's side and grown together with her from the
beginning of the series.
The other characters aren't much help as far as getting through to
Buffy, or with doing much of anything else, for that matter. Xander
being the one to stay with Willow is about what I'd expect, given the
way he throws himself into the role of backup guy. Overall, though,
separating the cast at all seems like a way to pad out the show; both
the X/W and A/T threads are fairly dull, and one knows that no one's
in any danger. I do like Tara's Tinkerbell thing. And, speaking of
Tara, her first axing later on.
Having seen it in the opening credits made me perhaps a little too
ready to view Dawn hanging on to the back of Spike on a motorcycle,
wearing a football helmet, as the Money Moment of their scenes
together. Silly, but I liked it. Since I figured that'd appear this
week, I was basically waiting for their non-suspense scenes together in
the house to get to that point.
This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
- Xander's one-and-a-half-sided chat with Willow during the opening
sequence
- "I *was* being patient, but it took too long"
- The robot repeatedly walking into the kegs
- The live-action debut of the Mutant Enemy monster
- "Hey, Buffy. Uh, here's some good news that might perk you right
up. Uh, Xander and I have an announcement..."
At least they're letting Willow and Tara kiss on screen again. I
think that's only allowed in episodes about death. (Actually, I
think it's a network thing.)
So...
One-sentence summary: Protracted.
AOQ rating: Decent
[Season Six so far:
1) "Bargaining" - Decent]
Clairel
--What, you have nothing to say about Spike's fetching 'do? I know
you've been seeing him curly-haired since the last part of season 5,
but really, doesn't he look great with curls? I think they should have
always, always had him curly-haired.
> I don't know if the fact that they haven't told people about their
> engagement is a bad sign for this couple, or whether it's just meant
> to tie in to the general lack of momentum on the Slaypack's part.
> Like pretty much everyone else except Giles, they've shown a
> reluctance to do anything that resembles change. Again, part of it
> ties into the need to protect the town in the absence of a real Slayer,
> but even after months, they don't seem to do or think about much
> other than Buffy. There's past precedent for this, but given how
> long the episode goes before they bring her back, all I can say is that
> the gang have never seemed more like The Sidekicks, incapable of
> carrying a show without their main character.
>
> At first it's a bit jarring to see Spike as Dawn's devoted
> bodyguard, until one thinks it through and sees that it does kinda make
> sense. I wonder if she ever gets a moment away from him.
--Sure she does! Whenever it's daylight, and she's outside (as for
example when she starts school). Or, for that matter, when we see Dawn
wake up in the morning and have breakfast, Spike isn't there. He
doesn't actually live at the Summers house. And when Tara tells her
that they'll be busy in the evening with a Scooby meeting, she makes a
point of adding "Spike will be with you." It seems to be something
that's arranged whenever Willow and/or Tara can't be home with Dawn in
the evening.
No matter
> what ATS may occasionally find it useful to claim, I'd say vampires
> have the capacity to change some, yes? The thing about Buffy having
> him promise to take care of Dawn back in TG was that it was an easy
> scene to ignore, given that heroes always say stuff like this before
> the big fight, and Spike would've by TV rules seemed more likely to
> die than Buffy. Now in the aftermath, he's going to live up to it
> with an intensity/obsession that follows the tone of how he was with
> all things Buffy.
--I'll have something to say about this later, but I don't have time
right now.
> But what about the dangers of secondhand smoke, huh?
--Heh.
--I actually didn't get tired of the Hellions and didn't feel that part
of the episode dragged, but I do agree that "Bargaining" overall felt
padded. To me the problem comes when Dawn finds Buffy on top of the
tower. That scene just seems to go on forever, and is incredibly
tedious and un-moving. As you comment below, it really falls flat.
Not one of David Fury's finer moments as a writer . . .
>
> Buffy doesn't appear in the flesh until about midway through the
> show, and she's front and center for the rest, albeit only getting
> about three lines of dialogue. On the plus side, not everything's
> happily back to normal, and it's unclear whether it'll ever be. On
> the minus side, it's hard to get too invested in this, and I think
> the reason is that the show has pulled back from Buffy's experience.
> She's been through several layers of hell before, but then the viewer
> was always with her. The only time I can remember having a problem
> with getting into her head is "When She Was Bad," and even there we
> do tend to know what she's experienced, and by the end of that
> episode, her behavior is fully understandable. The rest of the time,
> the viewer has always shared the hero's journey. This, on the other
> hand, is more like what happened to Angel in S3. We only have a vague
> idea of what she's been through, and how she's perceiving the
> world. S3 could get away with this, because Angel wasn't the main
> character, and only had to be seen for a few minutes each episode,
> almost always from the hero's POV. Here, since the show's about
> Buffy and the world revolves around her, they're going to have to let
> us in.
--Wow, are you ever perceptive! I mean it. I'm not going to spoil you
by saying how *long* this will be a problem in season 6, but you've
already pinpointed it as a problem, and I'll just say that for as long
as it lasts it's a big problem for me and a lot of other viewers.
Really, I'm just saying that there is widespread agreement about the
things you just pointed out.
--Nobody has ever mentioned this before to my knowledge, but in the
back of my mind it always bothered me that we saw Spike and Dawn on the
motorcycle in the opening credits of "Bargaining" before actually
getting to the point in the story when it occurs. It does have a bad
effect on a first time viewer who notices it in the credits and then is
just waiting for it to come along.
Hey, though, AOQ, had you really not seen "Bargaining" yet when you
wrote a few days ago that you could imagine Spike enjoying a
motorcycle, and keeping one if he ever got a chance to? Now you see
why I said you were so astute! (If indeed it was astuteness, and not
just viewing ahead...)
By the way, what did you think of Spike's reaction to the Hellions?
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> - Xander's one-and-a-half-sided chat with Willow during the opening
> sequence
> - "I *was* being patient, but it took too long"
> - The robot repeatedly walking into the kegs
--And that's the only Buffybot moment you single out as funny? I agree
about the creepy implications of having the Buffybot around, but unlike
you I didn't get tired of it in "Bargaining." I was sad when it
finally got destroyed. I thought its Dadaisms were endlessly
hilarious.
What did you think of Spike's reaction to its comments about his pecs
and washboard abs, AOQ? I always found that an interesting scene.
> - The live-action debut of the Mutant Enemy monster
> - "Hey, Buffy. Uh, here's some good news that might perk you right
> up. Uh, Xander and I have an announcement..."
>
> At least they're letting Willow and Tara kiss on screen again. I
> think that's only allowed in episodes about death. (Actually, I
> think it's a network thing.)
>
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Protracted.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
>
> [Season Six so far:
> 1) "Bargaining" - Decent]
--Well, I would rate it far higher than Decent. But then I had been
waiting for it with bated breath for four months, after the poignancy
of "The Gift"! (I can't think of another summer in my entire life that
was so dominated by wistful thoughts of a TV series.)
Clairel
George W Harris
:--And that's the only Buffybot moment you single out as funny? I agree
:about the creepy implications of having the Buffybot around, but unlike
:you I didn't get tired of it in "Bargaining." I was sad when it
:finally got destroyed. I thought its Dadaisms were endlessly
:hilarious.
:
:What did you think of Spike's reaction to its comments about his pecs
:and washboard abs, AOQ? I always found that an interesting scene.
I also was a little puzzled about his comments
on unacknowledged creepiness, with the "You're my
sister!" moment and Dawn curling up with the
recharging Buffybot. Those really drove home the
continuing emotional pain that the 'bot's presence was
exacerbating.
--
"It is always a simple matter to drag people along whether it is a
democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist
dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the
bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them
they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of
patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every
country."
-Hermann Goering
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.
burt...@hotmail.com
> There's past precedent for this, but given how
> long the episode goes before they bring her back, all I can say is that
> the gang have never seemed more like The Sidekicks, incapable of
> carrying a show without their main character.
I blame the writing. Willow and Xander, at least, have shown much more
life at various points in the series when Buffy wasn't around. And
there's nothing inherent in the characters of Tara or Anya to say they
couldn't do the same. Compare the scenes without Buffy in this episode
to the scenes with Xander, Willow, and Oz (and later Cordeila)
protecting Sunnydale without her in "Anne." It's a night-and-day
difference.
> At first it's a bit jarring to see Spike as Dawn's devoted
> bodyguard, until one thinks it through and sees that it does kinda make
> sense. I wonder if she ever gets a moment away from him. No matter
> what ATS may occasionally find it useful to claim, I'd say vampires
> have the capacity to change some, yes? The thing about Buffy having
> him promise to take care of Dawn back in TG was that it was an easy
> scene to ignore, given that heroes always say stuff like this before
> the big fight, and Spike would've by TV rules seemed more likely to
> die than Buffy. Now in the aftermath, he's going to live up to it
> with an intensity/obsession that follows the tone of how he was with
> all things Buffy. But what about the dangers of secondhand smoke, huh?
As far as I'm concerned, this is Spike's one and only moment of true
nobility in the entire series. I don't believe he cared about Dawn in
general, but James Marsters made me believe that he cared about her
here.
> I may not make it a major recurring punchline throughout the review,
> but my overall opinion of "Bargaining" is that it feels like one
> episode's worth of material padded out into a double episode. And
> that's never more prevalent a feeling than with the villains of the
> week, Heck's Demons. With the motorcycle-gang personas and even
> finding a way to bring the draw-and-quarter into the Buffyverse,
> they'd be ideal for a normal-length show. In a movie-length setting,
> they're pretty boring by the end, especially the fights that just go
> on and on.
Ah, I remember thinking when this episode first aired that any season
that starts with the demon motorcycle gang has nowhere to go but up.
Oh, how wrong I was....
Seriously, these guys have to be in the running for worst
monsters-of-the-week ever. From the sheer stupidity of the idea (I can
only imagine how the story meeting must have gone - "They're demons! On
*motorcycles!*"), to the casting of some of the worst guest actors the
series has ever seen for the roles, to the way their rampage just
dragged on and on and on.... It was just awful. The only saving grace
was Tara's cool moment at the end, but that was nowhere enough to make
up for everything else.
Definitely not an auspicious beginning.
MBangel10 (Melissa)
"Cup of Tea, Cup of Tea, almost got shagged, Cup of Tea"
If you're quoting lines from the the graveyard scene, I just had to
include the best one.
>
> Robo-Buffy certainly eats up a lot of screen time in the early parts of
> "Bargaining," and I don't think the episode is better for it.
> First of all, it gets old. More to the point, the show doesn't do
> much to address the creepiness that's inherent in keeping this thing
> around the house, in the place of their dead friend/relative, choosing
> instead to use it for almost pure comic relief. At least they have two
> reasons for not disposing of it - Slaying vampires and Dawn's legal
> status - and the stuff I mentioned doesn't go totally ignored, but
> it's still too uncomfortable a situation to laugh at much. So
> that's one thing. Another is something that didn't seem like an
> issue before given that the Buffybot has been apparently destroyed in
> all three of its appearances thus far. But here we're meant to
> believe that with proper programming, a robot, and one constructed in a
> matter of weeks no less, can fight almost as well as a Slayer. That
> doesn't sit right with me at all in terms of the show's mystique.
> The One Girl In All The World premise only works if you stick with it.
> Fortunately, it seems like there's a good chance that the show is
> finally done with this stupid thing.
Actually, the point was made early on (with the vampire slicing the bots
head open with a bottle) that the Bot could never replace the real
Slayer. Certainly, real Buffy could handle the patrols and the vampires
without the need of all the Scoobies tagging along to fight alongside
her. The Bot was a much needed decoy to keep the local demons in check
and to give Dawn a legal guardian.
>
> What kind of parent-teacher day has kids and parents doing anything
> together?
>
> Backtracking for a second, the opening titles continue to play with
> expectations, as well as providing a nice new badass shot of Buffy at
> the end. Where's Willow?! She's not in her usual spot, but we saw
> her! Oh, okay, she gets an "and," but then what about Giles?! I
> honestly had no clue that the show might ditch Rupert, who seems more
> essential to its format than any past departing cast members. I feel
> this way to the point where I'm wondering if this is a fake-out -
> Willow does say that he'll come back if Buffy does, after all. In
> any case, Special Guest Star Head does have his character leave town
> and isn't seen in the second half of the show. At first blush it's
> nice to see someone trying to change up his life, but when thinking
> about it more I'm not really sure why he's going to London. The
> implication would be that Buffy was the reason he was staying in
> Sunnydale. But this is a very different situation than last year in
> BvD; there he thought the world didn't need him because it was in the
> hands of a capable Slayer, who didn't need him. Whereas here, with
> the only known Slayer in prison, the word needs him more than ever.
> And it's not (or shouldn't be) a Watcher thing, since his guilt
> over Buffy's death extends to him blaming the whole institution of
> Watching. Perhaps he's running instead of moving on, rather than
> because of it. I do like the attempt to slip out quietly.
I think it's a combination of grief and no longer feeling like he has a
place in their world. He always had a job to do and now what? Run the
magic shop and attempt to teach "breathing" to a robot? He seems a
little lost (like the others) so his leaving didn't surprise me.
>
> Hairstyle update: both Xander and Anya look pretty good in the new era.
> I don't know if the fact that they haven't told people about their
> engagement is a bad sign for this couple, or whether it's just meant
> to tie in to the general lack of momentum on the Slaypack's part.
> Like pretty much everyone else except Giles, they've shown a
> reluctance to do anything that resembles change. Again, part of it
> ties into the need to protect the town in the absence of a real Slayer,
> but even after months, they don't seem to do or think about much
> other than Buffy. There's past precedent for this, but given how
> long the episode goes before they bring her back, all I can say is that
> the gang have never seemed more like The Sidekicks, incapable of
> carrying a show without their main character.
I think that was the point.
>
> At first it's a bit jarring to see Spike as Dawn's devoted
> bodyguard, until one thinks it through and sees that it does kinda make
> sense. I wonder if she ever gets a moment away from him. No matter
> what ATS may occasionally find it useful to claim, I'd say vampires
> have the capacity to change some, yes? The thing about Buffy having
> him promise to take care of Dawn back in TG was that it was an easy
> scene to ignore, given that heroes always say stuff like this before
> the big fight, and Spike would've by TV rules seemed more likely to
> die than Buffy. Now in the aftermath, he's going to live up to it
> with an intensity/obsession that follows the tone of how he was with
> all things Buffy. But what about the dangers of secondhand smoke, huh?
I always thought their scenes together were the best in the episode.
This episode brings a lot of questions about Spike into the mix. Why in
the heck, if his feelings for Buffy were only obsession, would he stick
around to keep a promise he made after the Slayer died? I can't think of
a single truly selfish reason on his part for doing this, other than
wanting to do what he'd promised... protect Dawn.
>
> That scene featuring Xander and Willow having a disagreement about
> proceeding, once resurrecting Buffy is threatening to become an actual
> plan... I can see what it was trying for, and the motivations largely
> make sense, but it doesn't quite hold together for me, and I'm a
> bit hard-pressed to explain why. Willow's tears at the end seem to
> lack the proper buildup too. I do think it's worth noting that
> significant others get to be part of this club while other Scoobies
> don't. It's also worth musing that Xander's reaction suggests
> that he wasn't sure he wanted to be part of this, and hoped the
> problem would go away if he ignored it (i.e. Willow would give up).
>
> Given the title of the series, we know that Willow's spell will work
> after the interruption, so that's a dose of the suspense that is not.
> But I'd like to mention some of the individual moments leading up to
> the resurrection magic, because there's some strong cinematography
> there. The scene by the pond with Willow sacrificing the fawn is
> beautifully shot, perfect as a counterpart to the sudden violence.
> It's important to the episode that this be seen as real deep dark
> magic, and I think it succeeds there. The bug-like bulges under her
> skin help with that too, as does Xander's reaction to the snake.
> Finally, I'm a big fan of the visual of the decaying corpse fading
> into a living Buffster, and her subsequent panicked attempts to claw
> her way out.
That was a powerful moment and one that's not easily forgotten. Willow
tapped into something extremely dark and seeing her kill that fawn made
me look at Willow in a completely different light. Sure she can still
sound all cute and innocent with words like "rumbly tummy" and such but
she's definitely not innocent Willow anymore.
>
> I may not make it a major recurring punchline throughout the review,
> but my overall opinion of "Bargaining" is that it feels like one
> episode's worth of material padded out into a double episode. And
> that's never more prevalent a feeling than with the villains of the
> week, Heck's Demons. With the motorcycle-gang personas and even
> finding a way to bring the draw-and-quarter into the Buffyverse,
> they'd be ideal for a normal-length show. In a movie-length setting,
> they're pretty boring by the end, especially the fights that just go
> on and on.
The moment when they killed the Buffybot and ripped her apart using
their Motorbike's made me gasp. Didn't you feel kind of bad for the darn
thing?
I didn't think 'Bargaining' dragged out much at all. I actually can't
imagine them fitting all that in without making a double episode. I
don't think everything that needed to be fleshed out could have possibly
been done in a regular episode time frame.
>
> Buffy doesn't appear in the flesh until about midway through the
> show, and she's front and center for the rest, albeit only getting
> about three lines of dialogue. On the plus side, not everything's
> happily back to normal, and it's unclear whether it'll ever be. On
> the minus side, it's hard to get too invested in this, and I think
> the reason is that the show has pulled back from Buffy's experience.
> She's been through several layers of hell before, but then the viewer
> was always with her. The only time I can remember having a problem
> with getting into her head is "When She Was Bad," and even there we
> do tend to know what she's experienced, and by the end of that
> episode, her behavior is fully understandable. The rest of the time,
> the viewer has always shared the hero's journey. This, on the other
> hand, is more like what happened to Angel in S3. We only have a vague
> idea of what she's been through, and how she's perceiving the
> world. S3 could get away with this, because Angel wasn't the main
> character, and only had to be seen for a few minutes each episode,
> almost always from the hero's POV. Here, since the show's about
> Buffy and the world revolves around her, they're going to have to let
> us in.
Yes they do. I remember wondering what in the hell had happened to her
for all that time. Where was she?
What did you think about poor Buffy having to dig herself out of her own
grave? No matter what happened to her or where she was at while she was
gone, what a way to come back into the world. In her own coffin and
having to claw her way through before being able to take that first
breath. That's got to be traumatizing.
>
> I don't want to discount the power of Gellar's haunted look in
> keeping these scenes alive. So, not that that isn't working for the
> show. It is. A lot. And the old trick of having Buffy run from
> fights, and then recover her action-hero ways, continues to work
> reasonably well. But ultimately I don't think it's enough for
> compelling TV if there's nothing else going on. Dawn's speech to
> her sister atop the tower is apparently meant as an emotional climax to
> all that, but seems remarkably flat, which may or may not be part of
> the point. Here I don't know how others feel, but one thing that
> damaged the scene for ne was that Dawn was the one opposite Buffy.
> I've grown to like her, and she's had some powerful moments with
> her sister in the past, but ultimately we've known her for less than
> a year. From the viewer's perspective, she's not one of the people
> who've been by Buffy's side and grown together with her from the
> beginning of the series.
The one line that really stuck with me is Buffy's question to Dawn up on
that tower. "Am I in Hell?"
This one ranks an "excellent" for me, easy. It brings Buffy back but
leaves so many questions unanswered that it left me wanting more.
Elisi
I have *no* time right now, but I'm not sure you noticed what the title
signifies: It's one of the steps of grieving. I think it goes - denial,
anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance.
Thought you might like that.
Clairel
George W Harris wrote:
> On 29 Jul 2006 14:02:29 -0700, "Clairel" <reld...@usa.net> wrote:
>
> :--And that's the only Buffybot moment you single out as funny? I agree
> :about the creepy implications of having the Buffybot around, but unlike
> :you I didn't get tired of it in "Bargaining." I was sad when it
> :finally got destroyed. I thought its Dadaisms were endlessly
> :hilarious.
> :
> :What did you think of Spike's reaction to its comments about his pecs
> :and washboard abs, AOQ? I always found that an interesting scene.
>
> I also was a little puzzled about his comments
> on unacknowledged creepiness, with the "You're my
> sister!" moment and Dawn curling up with the
> recharging Buffybot. Those really drove home the
> continuing emotional pain that the 'bot's presence was
> exacerbating.
--I agree. In fact, I meant to mention the curling up in bed scene.
I'm glad you did. Am interested in what AOQ will have to say about it.
Clairel
Daniel Damouth
@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com:
> To me the problem comes when Dawn finds Buffy on top of the
> tower. That scene just seems to go on forever, and is incredibly
> tedious and un-moving. As you comment below, it really falls flat.
> Not one of David Fury's finer moments as a writer . . .
V gubhtug gung jnf bar bs gur zbfg vzcbegnag zbzragf bs gur rcvfbqr.
Vg'f n gryy, be n sberfunqbjvat bs n gehgu jr qba'g xabj lrg. Ohssl
jnagf gb erghea gb urnira.
-Dan Damouth
Mauro
"Clairel" <reld...@usa.net> wrote in message
news:1154206949.7...@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
> --Nobody has ever mentioned this before to my knowledge, but in the
> back of my mind it always bothered me that we saw Spike and Dawn on the
> motorcycle in the opening credits of "Bargaining" before actually
> getting to the point in the story when it occurs. It does have a bad
> effect on a first time viewer who notices it in the credits and then is
> just waiting for it to come along.
It was certainly not the first time this show -- or any other, for that
matter -- has done this. The one that sticks out most in my mind is back in
season 4, there was a shot in the credits from the beginning of the fourth
season of Giles with a chainsaw, and that didn't show up in an actual
episode until the fourth episode of the season, "Fear Itself." It didn't
bother me there, and it didn't bother me here either.
angelbuffy0
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> At first it's a bit jarring to see Spike as Dawn's devoted
> bodyguard, until one thinks it through and sees that it does kinda make
> sense. I wonder if she ever gets a moment away from him. No matter
> what ATS may occasionally find it useful to claim, I'd say vampires
> have the capacity to change some, yes? The thing about Buffy having
> him promise to take care of Dawn back in TG was that it was an easy
> scene to ignore, given that heroes always say stuff like this before
> the big fight, and Spike would've by TV rules seemed more likely to
> die than Buffy. Now in the aftermath, he's going to live up to it
> with an intensity/obsession that follows the tone of how he was with
> all things Buffy. But what about the dangers of secondhand smoke, huh?
I have always seen Spike being apart of the Scoobies as he had no other
real options. Where else does he have to go? He has made himself a
pariah amongst the demons. It is not like Dru or even Angel would
take him in. He joined the Scoobies in season 4 cause he needed their
help and had no where else to turn. He stayed in season 5 because of
his obsession with Buffy and he could "hit a demon". And after her
death, where did he have to go?
George W Harris
<tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
:This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
:- Xander's one-and-a-half-sided chat with Willow during the opening
:sequence
:- "I *was* being patient, but it took too long"
:- The robot repeatedly walking into the kegs
:- The live-action debut of the Mutant Enemy monster
:- "Hey, Buffy. Uh, here's some good news that might perk you right
:up. Uh, Xander and I have an announcement..."
The wimpy vamp in the "Hansen" T-shirt.
--
e^(i*pi)+1=0
vague disclaimer
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 1: "Bargaining"
> (or "Don't make Dead Slayer angry")
> Writers: Marti Noxon (Part I) & David Fury (Part II)
> Director: David Grossman
Interesting stuff. I would tend to rate it as a strongish 'good' on your
scale: the effect of the pacing on me was to give a flavour of the sheer
grind of trying to fill the Slayer's shoes and how the facade they were
putting up was exactly that: a facade. They knew that Buffy wasn't just
in LA.
Also, you made one huge assumption in your review which, if I remember,
I'll specify as a less spoilery time.
--
Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
George W Harris
<mban...@comcast.net> wrote:
:That was a powerful moment and one that's not easily forgotten. Willow
:tapped into something extremely dark and seeing her kill that fawn made
:me look at Willow in a completely different light. Sure she can still
:sound all cute and innocent with words like "rumbly tummy" and such but
:she's definitely not innocent Willow anymore.
The costuming underscored that point. In the scene
with the faun she's wearing white. In the subsequent scene
in the Magic Box she's wearing red.
I also thought it was clear that her continued promises
to the other scoobies that everything was going to be fine
were to convince herself as much as to convince them. She
*knew* she was going to a dark place.
--
They say there's air in your lungs that's been there for years.
Michael Ikeda
news:1154204927.0...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
> review threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 1: "Bargaining"
> (or "Don't make Dead Slayer angry")
> Writers: Marti Noxon (Part I) & David Fury (Part II)
> Director: David Grossman
>
>
> Robo-Buffy certainly eats up a lot of screen time in the early
> parts of "Bargaining," and I don't think the episode is better
> for it. First of all, it gets old. More to the point, the show
> doesn't do much to address the creepiness that's inherent in
> keeping this thing around the house, in the place of their dead
> friend/relative, choosing instead to use it for almost pure
> comic relief.
As others have pointed out, Dawn curling up beside Buffy-bot is NOT
comic relief. Neither is Spike's discomfort around the Buffy-bot.
>At least they have two reasons for not disposing
> of it - Slaying vampires and Dawn's legal status - and the stuff
> I mentioned doesn't go totally ignored, but it's still too
> uncomfortable a situation to laugh at much. So that's one
> thing. Another is something that didn't seem like an issue
> before given that the Buffybot has been apparently destroyed in
> all three of its appearances thus far. But here we're meant to
> believe that with proper programming, a robot, and one
> constructed in a matter of weeks no less, can fight almost as
> well as a Slayer.
The fact that Buffy-bot can fight "almost as well" as a Slayer was
part of the package from the beginning. Note that the April-bot
seemed to be more than a match for the real Buffy. At least until
April-bot's batteries started running low.
>
> Hairstyle update: both Xander and Anya look pretty good in the
> new era.
> I don't know if the fact that they haven't told people about
> their
> engagement is a bad sign for this couple, or whether it's just
> meant to tie in to the general lack of momentum on the
> Slaypack's part.
The two suggestions are not mutually exclusive...
>Like pretty much everyone else except Giles,
> they've shown a reluctance to do anything that resembles change.
> Again, part of it ties into the need to protect the town in the
> absence of a real Slayer, but even after months, they don't seem
> to do or think about much other than Buffy.
Even starting to "move on" is like admitting that she's actually
dead.
> That scene featuring Xander and Willow having a disagreement
> about proceeding, once resurrecting Buffy is threatening to
> become an actual plan... I can see what it was trying for, and
> the motivations largely make sense, but it doesn't quite hold
> together for me, and I'm a bit hard-pressed to explain why.
> Willow's tears at the end seem to lack the proper buildup too.
> I do think it's worth noting that significant others get to be
> part of this club while other Scoobies don't.
Most importantly Giles hasn't been told. The one Scooby who might
make his objections stick.
It's also worth
> musing that Xander's reaction suggests that he wasn't sure he
> wanted to be part of this, and hoped the problem would go away
> if he ignored it (i.e. Willow would give up).
>
> Given the title of the series, we know that Willow's spell will
> work after the interruption, so that's a dose of the suspense
> that is not.
> But I'd like to mention some of the individual moments leading
> up to
> the resurrection magic, because there's some strong
> cinematography there. The scene by the pond with Willow
> sacrificing the fawn is beautifully shot, perfect as a
> counterpart to the sudden violence. It's important to the
> episode that this be seen as real deep dark magic, and I think
> it succeeds there. The bug-like bulges under her skin help with
> that too, as does Xander's reaction to the snake.
An important point is that Willow has kept key details even from
her co-conspirators. She obviously hasn't told Xander about the
"tests". And while Tara knew there would be "tests", Willow
doesn't seem to have given her any details. Nor did Willow tell
her the truth about "vino de madre". Willow seems to have given
just enough details to keep them on board. While keeping secret
anything that might cause them to back out.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
BTR1701
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> Given the title of the series, we know that Willow's spell will work
> after the interruption, so that's a dose of the suspense that is not.
> But I'd like to mention some of the individual moments leading up to
> the resurrection magic, because there's some strong cinematography
> there. The scene by the pond with Willow sacrificing the fawn is
> beautifully shot, perfect as a counterpart to the sudden violence.
> It's important to the episode that this be seen as real deep dark
> magic, and I think it succeeds there. The bug-like bulges under her
> skin help with that too, as does Xander's reaction to the snake.
> Finally, I'm a big fan of the visual of the decaying corpse fading
> into a living Buffster, and her subsequent panicked attempts to claw
> her way out.
Yeah, it was great for the creepy-factor but I always wonder why the
gang never thought about that. I mean, shouldn't they have dug up the
coffin and opened it before performing the spell, so as to forego the
emotional traumatization of being buried alive?
And if the motorcycle demons hadn't scattered them all into the forest,
what would they have done? Just sat around waiting until Buffy clawed
her way out of the ground like a reject from a Romero film?
BTR1701
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> Whereas here, with the only known Slayer in prison,
> the word needs him more than ever.
Unless Buffy's death called another Slayer...
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 1: "Bargaining"
> (or "Don't make Dead Slayer angry")
shes not dead
shes just pining for the fjords
> the end. Where's Willow?! She's not in her usual spot, but we saw
> her! Oh, okay, she gets an "and," but then what about Giles?! I
tony head fulfilled his five year contract
the cast did new contracts with the upn renewal
instead head wanted to return to england
hence the departure of giles
> there. The scene by the pond with Willow sacrificing the fawn is
> beautifully shot, perfect as a counterpart to the sudden violence.
commentary says that allyson hannigan was really freaking out during the filming
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> In article <1154204927.0...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Given the title of the series, we know that Willow's spell will work
> > after the interruption, so that's a dose of the suspense that is not.
> > But I'd like to mention some of the individual moments leading up to
> > the resurrection magic, because there's some strong cinematography
> > there. The scene by the pond with Willow sacrificing the fawn is
> > beautifully shot, perfect as a counterpart to the sudden violence.
> > It's important to the episode that this be seen as real deep dark
> > magic, and I think it succeeds there. The bug-like bulges under her
> > skin help with that too, as does Xander's reaction to the snake.
> > Finally, I'm a big fan of the visual of the decaying corpse fading
> > into a living Buffster, and her subsequent panicked attempts to claw
> > her way out.
>
> Yeah, it was great for the creepy-factor but I always wonder why the
> gang never thought about that. I mean, shouldn't they have dug up the
> coffin and opened it before performing the spell, so as to forego the
> emotional traumatization of being buried alive?
willow answers that herself
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 1: "Bargaining"
> (or "Don't make Dead Slayer angry")
> Writers: Marti Noxon (Part I) & David Fury (Part II)
> Director: David Grossman
>
> Behold, BTVS's one and only two-hour episode. In my world of DVDs,
> it'll be treated as a single show, but gets counted twice when
> converting ratings to numbers and such. Anyone who objects to this,
> please take in an earful of the sound of me not caring.
>
> Well, here we are again. If nothing else, "Bargaining" brings back
> the series' love of playing-with-the-audience teasers. First we're
> running through the graveyard and worrying that the show's lighting
> budget has been cut back to Early Years levels, then we see that
> Spike's become a vampire hunter (well, he's patrolled a few times
> before, but this makes it seem like a regular thing), gradually
> expanding into a somewhat uneven whole-Scoobies effort with a few
> moments of real comedy ("it was supposed to confuse him, but ... it
> just kinda made him peppy. It's not supposed to mix with anything, you
> think he might be taking prescription medication?" "[rolls eyes]
> Yeah, that must be it." "Good god, I hope he doesn't try to
> operate heavy machinery.")
Unfortunately, when they did the trim to cut this into two 1 hour
episodes for later re-runs, that bit was one of the things that they
lost.
> Robo-Buffy certainly eats up a lot of screen time in the early parts of
> "Bargaining," and I don't think the episode is better for it.
> First of all, it gets old. More to the point, the show doesn't do
> much to address the creepiness that's inherent in keeping this thing
> around the house, in the place of their dead friend/relative, choosing
> instead to use it for almost pure comic relief. At least they have two
> reasons for not disposing of it - Slaying vampires and Dawn's legal
> status - and the stuff I mentioned doesn't go totally ignored, but
> it's still too uncomfortable a situation to laugh at much.
I found Dawn going in to sleep with the robot very creepy.
> Backtracking for a second, the opening titles continue to play with
> expectations, as well as providing a nice new badass shot of Buffy at
> the end. Where's Willow?! She's not in her usual spot, but we saw
> her! Oh, okay, she gets an "and," but then what about Giles?!
This is a case of Real Life interfering with art. ASH wanted to spend
more time with his family in England, so he is no longer appearing in
every episode.
> That scene featuring Xander and Willow having a disagreement about
> proceeding, once resurrecting Buffy is threatening to become an actual
> plan... I can see what it was trying for, and the motivations largely
> make sense, but it doesn't quite hold together for me, and I'm a
> bit hard-pressed to explain why. Willow's tears at the end seem to
> lack the proper buildup too. I do think it's worth noting that
> significant others get to be part of this club while other Scoobies
> don't. It's also worth musing that Xander's reaction suggests
> that he wasn't sure he wanted to be part of this, and hoped the
> problem would go away if he ignored it (i.e. Willow would give up).
Or that she wouldn't find a way that she could do it.
> Given the title of the series, we know that Willow's spell will work
> after the interruption, so that's a dose of the suspense that is not.
> But I'd like to mention some of the individual moments leading up to
> the resurrection magic, because there's some strong cinematography
> there. The scene by the pond with Willow sacrificing the fawn is
> beautifully shot, perfect as a counterpart to the sudden violence.
> It's important to the episode that this be seen as real deep dark
> magic, and I think it succeeds there. The bug-like bulges under her
> skin help with that too, as does Xander's reaction to the snake.
> Finally, I'm a big fan of the visual of the decaying corpse fading
> into a living Buffster, and her subsequent panicked attempts to claw
> her way out.
And the obvious point that the Scoobies didn't bother to dig her up
first. Maybe that was something Willow planned for the end of the
spell, before the Hellions interfered.
> At least they're letting Willow and Tara kiss on screen again. I
> think that's only allowed in episodes about death. (Actually, I
> think it's a network thing.)
It was mostly a WB thing. UPN was much more open to the idea of having
Willow and Tara make public displays of affection.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Stephen Tempest
>First we're
>running through the graveyard and worrying that the show's lighting
>budget has been cut back to Early Years levels,
Notice that Willow is using the same telepathy to coordinate them that
she used in The Gift - and she gets impatient when Xander and Anya
complain about how intrusive it is?
>First of all, it gets old. More to the point, the show doesn't do
>much to address the creepiness that's inherent in keeping this thing
>around the house, in the place of their dead friend/relative, choosing
>instead to use it for almost pure comic relief.
Um, which episode were *you* watching? Because it can't have been the
one in which:
Dawn gets out of bed and curls up in the lifeless arms of the robot
copy of her sister...
The Buffybot compliments Spike, and he gets all defensive and bristly
and asks Willow why she hasn't removed that part of the programming...
Giles is trying to impart the Buffybot with all the training he'd
wanted to give to Buffy, but now she's dead...
The Buffybot smiles and hugs Dawn, saying "You're my sister!", and
Dawn looks acutely uncomfortable at the reminder that she really
isn't, but doesn't have the heart to tell her to stop...
"Just comic relief"???
>But here we're meant to
>believe that with proper programming, a robot, and one constructed in a
>matter of weeks no less, can fight almost as well as a Slayer.
As far as I saw, it fought about as well as the human Scoobies. Of
course, as a robot it does presumably have superhuman strength and
reflexes, and doesn't feel pain... and even so, it didn't last very
long against the demon bikers.
> At first blush it's
>nice to see someone trying to change up his life, but when thinking
>about it more I'm not really sure why he's going to London.
I think he may well have lots of decent-sounding reasons, but at the
heart of it he's suffering from battle fatigue. Who does he have left
in Sunnydale that he's close to? Jenny died. Joyce died. Olivia
seems to have left him. and now Buffy's dead. Staying in California
must be deeply painful for him.
>Again, part of it
>ties into the need to protect the town in the absence of a real Slayer,
>but even after months, they don't seem to do or think about much
>other than Buffy.
They've just seen their best friend killed. It generally takes more
than a few months to get bqack to normal after something like that.
(And that's also in reply to the poster who complained that they
weren't nearly as affected emotionally in 'Anne' - well no, there they
knew Buffy was alive, just diasappeared. They hadn't had to bury her
mangled corpse in a grave in the woods.)
> I wonder if she ever gets a moment away from him. No matter
>what ATS may occasionally find it useful to claim, I'd say vampires
>have the capacity to change some, yes?
Why wouldn't they? Given their long lives and the basic lack of
intelligence of the typical blood-crazed vampire, most don't change
(nor do they want to)... but there's been nothing in the Buffyverse to
suggest that lack of a human soul also means lack of free will.
>... I can see what it was trying for, and the motivations largely
>make sense, but it doesn't quite hold together for me, and I'm a
>bit hard-pressed to explain why. Willow's tears at the end seem to
>lack the proper buildup too.
Xander's complaints did seem a bit forced. As for Willow's tears...
genuine concern for Buffy, or an attempt (subconscious?) to convince
herself she's doing the right thing? Plus, the trademark Willow "only
good in a crisis" over-analysing everything and getting worked up
about it.
> I do think it's worth noting that
>significant others get to be part of this club while other Scoobies
>don't. It's also worth musing that Xander's reaction suggests
>that he wasn't sure he wanted to be part of this, and hoped the
>problem would go away if he ignored it (i.e. Willow would give up).
All of which goes to show that what they're attempting here is not
necessarily a good thing...
> The scene by the pond with Willow sacrificing the fawn is
>beautifully shot, perfect as a counterpart to the sudden violence.
Normally referred to using the term 'Bambicide'...
>Buffy doesn't appear in the flesh until about midway through the
>show, and she's front and center for the rest, albeit only getting
>about three lines of dialogue. On the plus side, not everything's
>happily back to normal, and it's unclear whether it'll ever be.
Points to Anya for the best line of the episode:
"We have a Slayer here..." (takes a look at Buffy) "Who may actually
be looking to eat some brains, so..."
(Of course, Anya knows perfectly well that zombies don't eat brains
unless ordered to do so by their zombie master)
> Here, since the show's about
>Buffy and the world revolves around her, they're going to have to let
>us in.
True. But since it's such a central part of the story at the moment,
won't you at least give them an episode or two to develop it? Will
Bufffy be all better again by next episode? Would you want her to be,
considering she died then clawed her way out of her own grave?
>Here I don't know how others feel, but one thing that
>damaged the scene for ne was that Dawn was the one opposite Buffy.
>I've grown to like her, and she's had some powerful moments with
>her sister in the past, but ultimately we've known her for less than
>a year. From the viewer's perspective, she's not one of the people
>who've been by Buffy's side and grown together with her from the
>beginning of the series.
Maybe so... but she's Buffy's only remaining family. She's the person
Buffy gave her life to protect, in fact.
>both
>the X/W and A/T threads are fairly dull, and one knows that no one's
>in any danger.
You're a Joss Whedon fan, and you can actually say that with a
straight face?
>This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
>- Xander's one-and-a-half-sided chat with Willow during the opening
>sequence
>- "I *was* being patient, but it took too long"
>- The robot repeatedly walking into the kegs
>- The live-action debut of the Mutant Enemy monster
>- "Hey, Buffy. Uh, here's some good news that might perk you right
>up. Uh, Xander and I have an announcement..."
Xander asking Willow indignantly 'who made you the boss?' and everyone
else chiming in to say that he did, he even made her a sign...
>
>At least they're letting Willow and Tara kiss on screen again. I
>think that's only allowed in episodes about death. (Actually, I
>think it's a network thing.)
Pretty much, yes. (Also, the dead corpse of Buffy was more than
usually graphic compared to earlier seasons)
>AOQ rating: Decent
Probably a high Good for me, verging on Excellent. The dialogue was
first-rate, both the humour and the dramatic speeches, like Xander's
realisation of why Buffy's hands are bleeding. The chase through the
woods, and the confrontation with Razor's demons, were genuinely
scary... especially now we've seen how the Scoobies are struggling
without Buffy. The way Buffy was somehow drawn to the scene of her
death, and was about to recreate it until Dawn called her back, was
tense and spooky - and the way that the only thing to draw Buffy out
of her remoteness and apathy was Dawn screaming was good. Willow's
getting scarier than ever - but at least she means well, eh? Spike's
devoted to protecting Buffy's sister, but he still gets nostalgic
about the violence and slaughter. All in all, one of the show's
stronger episodes... and one that sets up a lot of questions.
Stephen
Mark Jones
> In article <1154204927.0...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Given the title of the series, we know that Willow's spell will work
> > after the interruption, so that's a dose of the suspense that is not.
> > But I'd like to mention some of the individual moments leading up to
> > the resurrection magic, because there's some strong cinematography
> > there. The scene by the pond with Willow sacrificing the fawn is
> > beautifully shot, perfect as a counterpart to the sudden violence. It's
> > important to the episode that this be seen as real deep dark magic, and
> > I think it succeeds there. The bug-like bulges under her skin help with
> > that too, as does Xander's reaction to the snake. Finally, I'm a big fan
> > of the visual of the decaying corpse fading into a living Buffster, and
> > her subsequent panicked attempts to claw her way out.
>
> Yeah, it was great for the creepy-factor but I always wonder why the gang
> never thought about that. I mean, shouldn't they have dug up the coffin
> and opened it before performing the spell, so as to forego the emotional
> traumatization of being buried alive?
Not to mention that if they revive Buffy and she _can't_ dig her way out of
her grave, she's going to smother to death again. Way to go, Willow.
Don Sample
burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > There's past precedent for this, but given how
> > long the episode goes before they bring her back, all I can say is that
> > the gang have never seemed more like The Sidekicks, incapable of
> > carrying a show without their main character.
>
> I blame the writing. Willow and Xander, at least, have shown much more
> life at various points in the series when Buffy wasn't around. And
> there's nothing inherent in the characters of Tara or Anya to say they
> couldn't do the same. Compare the scenes without Buffy in this episode
> to the scenes with Xander, Willow, and Oz (and later Cordeila)
> protecting Sunnydale without her in "Anne." It's a night-and-day
> difference.
But on those occasions, Buffy was just away. She wasn't dead. Even
though they're planning to bring her back, I don't think that Xander
really believes that it's going to work.
Apteryx
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
> "Bargaining," and I don't think the episode is better for it.
> First of all, it gets old. More to the point, the show doesn't do
> much to address the creepiness that's inherent in keeping this thing
> around the house, in the place of their dead friend/relative, choosing
> instead to use it for almost pure comic relief.
You say that like its a bad thing. Buffybot herself may be (much
needed) comic relief but the creepiness is certainly adressed. Even the
content of the knock-knock joke, while a joke for the audience, shows
its weighing on the Scoobies. They need it, but having it around must
be very upsetting for them. But they have had months to adjust to those
conflicting requirements. And for Dawn at least, it seems even a
Buffybot is better than no Buffy at all - which was of course Spike's
reason for getting it made in the first place :)
> all three of its appearances thus far. But here we're meant to
> believe that with proper programming, a robot, and one constructed in a
> matter of weeks no less, can fight almost as well as a Slayer. That
> doesn't sit right with me at all in terms of the show's mystique.
> The One Girl In All The World premise only works if you stick with it.
If you stick with it? Kendra? Faith? These names ring a bell at all?
>
> What kind of parent-teacher day has kids and parents doing anything
> together?
One from a kid's nightmare :) I loved that scene.
> Backtracking for a second, the opening titles continue to play with
> expectations, as well as providing a nice new badass shot of Buffy at
> the end. Where's Willow?! She's not in her usual spot, but we saw
> her! Oh, okay, she gets an "and," but then what about Giles?! I
> honestly had no clue that the show might ditch Rupert, who seems more
> essential to its format than any past departing cast members.
Odd, very odd. And I agree, not convincing.
>
> Given the title of the series, we know that Willow's spell will work
> after the interruption, so that's a dose of the suspense that is not.
I think the fact that it is a two parter is a bigger spoiler for that.
We know from the series title that Buffy will be back, but if they had
played the series opener straight with a single episode, we wouldn't
have had any basis to be sure that this particular attempt would
suceed.
> But I'd like to mention some of the individual moments leading up to
> the resurrection magic, because there's some strong cinematography
> there. The scene by the pond with Willow sacrificing the fawn is
> beautifully shot, perfect as a counterpart to the sudden violence.
> It's important to the episode that this be seen as real deep dark
> magic, and I think it succeeds there.
Yes, an excellent scene.
The bug-like bulges under her
> skin help with that too, as does Xander's reaction to the snake.
> Finally, I'm a big fan of the visual of the decaying corpse fading
> into a living Buffster, and her subsequent panicked attempts to claw
> her way out.
Yes, another one.
> I may not make it a major recurring punchline throughout the review,
> but my overall opinion of "Bargaining" is that it feels like one
> episode's worth of material padded out into a double episode. And
> that's never more prevalent a feeling than with the villains of the
> week, Heck's Demons.
Three points of complete agreement in a row! A new record :)
> hand, is more like what happened to Angel in S3. We only have a vague
> idea of what she's been through, and how she's perceiving the
> world. S3 could get away with this, because Angel wasn't the main
> character, and only had to be seen for a few minutes each episode,
> almost always from the hero's POV. Here, since the show's about
> Buffy and the world revolves around her, they're going to have to let
> us in.
I think a vague idea is OK at this point. She is clearly having trouble
adjusting, and we can imagine why. If the details are important, I'm
sure she'll let us know when the time is right.
> compelling TV if there's nothing else going on. Dawn's speech to
> her sister atop the tower is apparently meant as an emotional climax to
> all that, but seems remarkably flat, which may or may not be part of
> the point. Here I don't know how others feel, but one thing that
> damaged the scene for ne was that Dawn was the one opposite Buffy.
> I've grown to like her, and she's had some powerful moments with
> her sister in the past, but ultimately we've known her for less than
> a year. From the viewer's perspective, she's not one of the people
> who've been by Buffy's side and grown together with her from the
> beginning of the series.
Yeah. I think it has to be Dawn because it was Buffy and Dawn there at
the end of The Gift, but I don't care for the scene.
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Protracted.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
If I rated it as a single episode I'd agree with Decent, and with the
one sentence summary. In fact I split it to give every season (except
S1) 22 episodes, so in fact I rate Part 1 a low Good (because it has
the humour and hasn't got protracted yet) and Part 2 as Decent. They
are my 77th and 110th favourite BtVS episodes, 9th and 15th best in
season 6.
Apteryx
Don Sample
"MBangel10 (Melissa)" <mban...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> > threads.
> >
> >
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Six, Episode 1: "Bargaining"
> > (or "Don't make Dead Slayer angry")
> > Writers: Marti Noxon (Part I) & David Fury (Part II)
> > Director: David Grossman
> >
> > But here we're meant to
> > believe that with proper programming, a robot, and one constructed in a
> > matter of weeks no less, can fight almost as well as a Slayer. That
> > doesn't sit right with me at all in terms of the show's mystique.
> > The One Girl In All The World premise only works if you stick with it.
> > Fortunately, it seems like there's a good chance that the show is
> > finally done with this stupid thing.
>
> Actually, the point was made early on (with the vampire slicing the bots
> head open with a bottle) that the Bot could never replace the real
> Slayer. Certainly, real Buffy could handle the patrols and the vampires
> without the need of all the Scoobies tagging along to fight alongside
> her. The Bot was a much needed decoy to keep the local demons in check
> and to give Dawn a legal guardian.
And this isn't the first robot we've seen that could fight. Both Ted
and April were able to hold their own against Buffy (and Buffybot would
have inherited a lot of April's programming.)
> I always thought their scenes together were the best in the episode.
> This episode brings a lot of questions about Spike into the mix. Why in
> the heck, if his feelings for Buffy were only obsession, would he stick
> around to keep a promise he made after the Slayer died? I can't think of
> a single truly selfish reason on his part for doing this, other than
> wanting to do what he'd promised... protect Dawn.
And he's still got that brainwashing that the Monks gave him.
>
> That was a powerful moment and one that's not easily forgotten. Willow
> tapped into something extremely dark and seeing her kill that fawn made
> me look at Willow in a completely different light. Sure she can still
> sound all cute and innocent with words like "rumbly tummy" and such but
> she's definitely not innocent Willow anymore.
How does killing the fawn make her any worse than someone who eats meat?
That she did it herself only makes her less hypocritical than someone
who buys her meat already neatly packaged. Either way they are
benefiting from the killing of an animal.
One Bit Shy
news:1154204927.0...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Six, Episode 1: "Bargaining"
Hi. You're back quicker than I expected... Or maybe I lost track of time.
Anyway, onwards...
> Behold, BTVS's one and only two-hour episode. In my world of DVDs,
> it'll be treated as a single show, but gets counted twice when
> converting ratings to numbers and such. Anyone who objects to this,
> please take in an earful of the sound of me not caring.
According to the commentary this was not originally planned to be a double
length episode, but rather two separate ones. UPN approached them with the
request for a 2 hour Buffy movie as a premiere, so they reworked it. It's
not clear what exactly changed, but I think it was fairly substantial. One
thing mentioned is that the ending was originally conceived as much briefer
and without the big effect of the crumbling tower. The drawn out scene with
Dawn became the big closer for the special event.
> Robo-Buffy certainly eats up a lot of screen time in the early parts of
> "Bargaining," and I don't think the episode is better for it.
> First of all, it gets old. More to the point, the show doesn't do
> much to address the creepiness that's inherent in keeping this thing
> around the house, in the place of their dead friend/relative, choosing
> instead to use it for almost pure comic relief.
Well, I have to disagree with that. Aside from me enjoying the Buffybot
scenes as some of the better parts of the show, I think they used her a lot
as the vehicle for important ideas. The Buffybot is the one who asked Giles
why he was still here - in a fashion and context that drove it home to him.
(That following a very entertaining, yet sad scene of Giles attempting to
train the Buffybot as if she were actually Buffy.)
There's the scene with the Buffybot referring to Spike's "washboard abs"
that upsets Spike and eventually leads him to abruptly leave. (This would
be a prominent example of addressing the Buffybot's creepiness. Her
existence pains Spike.) And the scene of Dawn going to sleep next to the
Buffybot in a sad attempt to get a little comfort she misses from Buffy.
The blank faced unmoving robot being recharged is a very uncomfortable
counterpoint to Dawn's vulnerability.
The Buffybot is the means to Willow's resurrection spell being interrupted,
her dying words are to tell Dawn that there's another Buffy about, and one
of the first things the real Buffy sees on her return to life is herself
(the Buffybot) drawn and quartered - a pretty horrifying welcome back that
makes Sunnydale look like a living hell to her. All in all the Buffybot is
central to much of the meat of this episode.
As well as some humor. I do like her lines in the teaser. Though I don't
know why you think she fights almost as well as The Slayer.
> Backtracking for a second, the opening titles continue to play with
> expectations, as well as providing a nice new badass shot of Buffy at
> the end. Where's Willow?! She's not in her usual spot, but we saw
> her! Oh, okay, she gets an "and," but then what about Giles?! I
> honestly had no clue that the show might ditch Rupert, who seems more
> essential to its format than any past departing cast members. I feel
> this way to the point where I'm wondering if this is a fake-out -
> Willow does say that he'll come back if Buffy does, after all. In
> any case, Special Guest Star Head does have his character leave town
> and isn't seen in the second half of the show.
Boy I'm glad I never notice the content of credits.
> At first blush it's
> nice to see someone trying to change up his life, but when thinking
> about it more I'm not really sure why he's going to London. The
> implication would be that Buffy was the reason he was staying in
> Sunnydale. But this is a very different situation than last year in
> BvD; there he thought the world didn't need him because it was in the
> hands of a capable Slayer, who didn't need him. Whereas here, with
> the only known Slayer in prison, the word needs him more than ever.
> And it's not (or shouldn't be) a Watcher thing, since his guilt
> over Buffy's death extends to him blaming the whole institution of
> Watching. Perhaps he's running instead of moving on, rather than
> because of it. I do like the attempt to slip out quietly.
I don't think he's gotten to the point of knowing what moving on means other
than leaving, and I'm sure that part of his motivation is to get way from
the site of his pain (and the sight of the Buffybot), but I still think the
primary motivation is his feeling that he lacks purpose in Sunnydale. I
think that's the main point of his scene with the Buffybot where he finds
himself reduced to providing pointless training to it. Teach the Buffybot
proper techniques of breathing? Your thought of how else he might be useful
is valid - but that itself would be a form of moving on. The role he
actually played had come to an end. Then it became a question of what to do
next. I guess he decided that the best choice was to let Anya have her
dream of running the Magic Box while he returned home.
I don't see any significance shown here, but I can't help but remember that
Giles last dealings with Buffy were somewhat adversarial as they found
themselves potentially arrayed against each other over the life of Dawn.
That must have added to the pain for Giles. In my fanwanking way I
sometimes think the only reason he's stayed as long as he has at this point
is guilt.
> Hairstyle update: both Xander and Anya look pretty good in the new era.
Well... keep watching Anya's hair. Whenever you get to reviewing the
series, look at her S4 hair, which I personally think was mostly
unflattering to her. You'll note that Willow's hair is different too.
Letting it grow again.
> I don't know if the fact that they haven't told people about their
> engagement is a bad sign for this couple, or whether it's just meant
> to tie in to the general lack of momentum on the Slaypack's part.
Hey, he's marrying Anya. That's worth a little Xander indigestion.
> Like pretty much everyone else except Giles, they've shown a
> reluctance to do anything that resembles change. Again, part of it
> ties into the need to protect the town in the absence of a real Slayer,
> but even after months, they don't seem to do or think about much
> other than Buffy. There's past precedent for this, but given how
> long the episode goes before they bring her back, all I can say is that
> the gang have never seemed more like The Sidekicks, incapable of
> carrying a show without their main character.
Yep. I think that's the idea. And the problem with such an idea - as valid
as it may be - is that it doesn't make for thrilling viewing.
> At first it's a bit jarring to see Spike as Dawn's devoted
> bodyguard, until one thinks it through and sees that it does kinda make
> sense. I wonder if she ever gets a moment away from him. No matter
> what ATS may occasionally find it useful to claim, I'd say vampires
> have the capacity to change some, yes?
I don't think Angel has much experience with the effects of behavior
modification chips, so I'll cut him a little slack.
> The thing about Buffy having
> him promise to take care of Dawn back in TG was that it was an easy
> scene to ignore, given that heroes always say stuff like this before
> the big fight, and Spike would've by TV rules seemed more likely to
> die than Buffy. Now in the aftermath, he's going to live up to it
> with an intensity/obsession that follows the tone of how he was with
> all things Buffy. But what about the dangers of secondhand smoke, huh?
Heh. I guess he's evil.
The thing about Spike living up to the promise is that it's kind of late for
that now. He failed when he was needed.
> That scene featuring Xander and Willow having a disagreement about
> proceeding, once resurrecting Buffy is threatening to become an actual
> plan... I can see what it was trying for, and the motivations largely
> make sense, but it doesn't quite hold together for me, and I'm a
> bit hard-pressed to explain why. Willow's tears at the end seem to
> lack the proper buildup too. I do think it's worth noting that
> significant others get to be part of this club while other Scoobies
> don't. It's also worth musing that Xander's reaction suggests
> that he wasn't sure he wanted to be part of this, and hoped the
> problem would go away if he ignored it (i.e. Willow would give up).
I think the problem with this scene is timing. The decision to bring back
Buffy is too big to be made lightly, so I suppose the writers felt obligated
to show the difficulty of it. But the thing is that all that angst occurred
somewhere in the summer before this episode occurs. This is a bout of cold
feet overlaid awkwardly with some lip service to the difficulty of the
original decision. I don't think it plays well in the end.
> Given the title of the series, we know that Willow's spell will work
> after the interruption, so that's a dose of the suspense that is not.
> But I'd like to mention some of the individual moments leading up to
> the resurrection magic, because there's some strong cinematography
> there. The scene by the pond with Willow sacrificing the fawn is
> beautifully shot, perfect as a counterpart to the sudden violence.
> It's important to the episode that this be seen as real deep dark
> magic, and I think it succeeds there. The bug-like bulges under her
> skin help with that too, as does Xander's reaction to the snake.
> Finally, I'm a big fan of the visual of the decaying corpse fading
> into a living Buffster, and her subsequent panicked attempts to claw
> her way out.
Those are probably the most arresting scenes of the show - and do a lot to
make the show live up at least a little to the weight of the event - Buffy's
return.
About the sacrifice of Bambi, please note that Willow wore all white in that
scene, and then shows up at the Magic Box the next scene dressed in blood
red. Willow also hides from the rest of the Scoobies what she did and even
what that last spell ingredient really is.
> I may not make it a major recurring punchline throughout the review,
> but my overall opinion of "Bargaining" is that it feels like one
> episode's worth of material padded out into a double episode.
As it happens it was two episodes stripped of their individual integrity.
But I agree with you about the feel of it.
> And
> that's never more prevalent a feeling than with the villains of the
> week, Heck's Demons. With the motorcycle-gang personas and even
> finding a way to bring the draw-and-quarter into the Buffyverse,
> they'd be ideal for a normal-length show. In a movie-length setting,
> they're pretty boring by the end, especially the fights that just go
> on and on.
I liked the hellions a lot. The design of their makeup. The heavy metal
music as they rode off. Voices and attitudes. The awful destruction of the
Buffybot. There was some nice orchestral music in some of their scenes too.
One little moment I especially like is when one of them lets loose a high
pitched throaty screech - my second favorite scream in BtVS.
But you're right that everything about them runs on too long and really cuts
into the appreciation of them. Especially the interminable fight with their
leader.
> Buffy doesn't appear in the flesh until about midway through the
> show, and she's front and center for the rest, albeit only getting
> about three lines of dialogue. On the plus side, not everything's
> happily back to normal, and it's unclear whether it'll ever be. On
> the minus side, it's hard to get too invested in this, and I think
> the reason is that the show has pulled back from Buffy's experience.
> She's been through several layers of hell before, but then the viewer
> was always with her. The only time I can remember having a problem
> with getting into her head is "When She Was Bad," and even there we
> do tend to know what she's experienced, and by the end of that
> episode, her behavior is fully understandable. The rest of the time,
> the viewer has always shared the hero's journey. This, on the other
> hand, is more like what happened to Angel in S3. We only have a vague
> idea of what she's been through, and how she's perceiving the
> world. S3 could get away with this, because Angel wasn't the main
> character, and only had to be seen for a few minutes each episode,
> almost always from the hero's POV. Here, since the show's about
> Buffy and the world revolves around her, they're going to have to let
> us in.
That's a good observation. But I think the state Buffy is in at the end of
this episode makes it clear that the process isn't over. So watch and see
how it's handled. In the meantime, I think there's still a lot of emotional
resonance to be gotten out Buffy having to crawl out of her grave, have her
gravestone be the first thing she sees, then see herself torn apart by the
demons, and just generally walk into a Sunnydale that looks like hell.
> I don't want to discount the power of Gellar's haunted look in
> keeping these scenes alive. So, not that that isn't working for the
> show. It is. A lot. And the old trick of having Buffy run from
> fights, and then recover her action-hero ways, continues to work
> reasonably well. But ultimately I don't think it's enough for
> compelling TV if there's nothing else going on. Dawn's speech to
> her sister atop the tower is apparently meant as an emotional climax to
> all that, but seems remarkably flat, which may or may not be part of
> the point. Here I don't know how others feel, but one thing that
> damaged the scene for ne was that Dawn was the one opposite Buffy.
> I've grown to like her, and she's had some powerful moments with
> her sister in the past, but ultimately we've known her for less than
> a year. From the viewer's perspective, she's not one of the people
> who've been by Buffy's side and grown together with her from the
> beginning of the series.
I imagine the idea is Buffy being drawn back to the scene of her death and
sort of reliving it (re-die it?) - which requires Dawn. I'm not going to
expend a lot of effort defending it though, because I don't think it's very
good. Definitely runs on too long and brings out Dawn's whiney voice. (I
too liked Dawn in S5. A fine performance on the whole. But MT doesn't do
everything well. IMO this would be one of her not so good performances.)
> The other characters aren't much help as far as getting through to
> Buffy, or with doing much of anything else, for that matter. Xander
> being the one to stay with Willow is about what I'd expect, given the
> way he throws himself into the role of backup guy. Overall, though,
> separating the cast at all seems like a way to pad out the show; both
> the X/W and A/T threads are fairly dull, and one knows that no one's
> in any danger. I do like Tara's Tinkerbell thing. And, speaking of
> Tara, her first axing later on.
No, they're not good at getting through are they? Aside from that
observation I don't have anything to say but agreeing that this too runs on.
> Having seen it in the opening credits made me perhaps a little too
> ready to view Dawn hanging on to the back of Spike on a motorcycle,
> wearing a football helmet, as the Money Moment of their scenes
> together. Silly, but I liked it. Since I figured that'd appear this
> week, I was basically waiting for their non-suspense scenes together in
> the house to get to that point.
She and Spike are always good together. Too bad she isn't older. She might
be a better match for Spike than Buffy.
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> - Xander's one-and-a-half-sided chat with Willow during the opening
> sequence
I like that too, but I'm not sure what I think of Willow's telepathic
powers. Maybe she shouldn't keep doing that.
> - "I *was* being patient, but it took too long"
> - The robot repeatedly walking into the kegs
The commentary indicates that the writers consider the depiction to have
been a failure. (As it is, it was reshot.) But I like it myself.
> - The live-action debut of the Mutant Enemy monster
I want one of those.
> - "Hey, Buffy. Uh, here's some good news that might perk you right
> up. Uh, Xander and I have an announcement..."
Heh. She may understand humanity better than she used to, but that doesn't
stop her from being single minded and self centered.
> At least they're letting Willow and Tara kiss on screen again. I
> think that's only allowed in episodes about death. (Actually, I
> think it's a network thing.)
Not with UPN. The show has a lot more freedom with them.
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Protracted.
That's a fair review. I don't care a lot for this episode. To my mind it's
the weakest season opener to date and one of the worst shows of this season.
(Which does imply a lot better to come.) I think the two hour movie
premiere - as natural as the concept would be to UPN - was a bad idea. It's
just not the kind of episode to support that. The dragged out scenes are
bad enough in themselves (for me the worst was the goodbye to Giles), but to
do that in an extra long episode only further emphasizes the tedium. Some
of the scenes - at any length - also seemed to lack the spark and sense of
timing that the cast usually has. (A little slow getting back into the
swing of performing this year?)
Still there's good stuff in there too. You noted the power scenes. And
assorted moments with the biker demons and the Buffybot work well for me
too. Not to mention simply the big deal of Buffy coming back. Yeah,
everybody expected it, but it still matters.
Probably less obvious is that this episode does follow the BtVS tradition of
providing a considerable amount of foreshadowing in the season opener and,
in this case, one honking big season metaphor. No need for you to worry
about it - the elements will come clear in their own time - which might very
well not be until you get around to rewatching the series. I mention it
only because for me that stuff is now my favorite part of the episode.
Even so, I could only rate the episode as Decent.
OBS
Don Sample
Maybe the digging her up part was the last part of the spell.
Mauro
"Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
news:dsample-D765D4...@news.giganews.com...
Or maybe she thought that somehow Buffy would magically reappear above
ground. Did they ever establish how zombie-Joyce was supposed to have
gotten out of her grave in "Forever?"
BTR1701
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
It sure didn't fit thematically with the rest of the spell. And it
wasn't necessary, in any event, because they didn't dig her up and she
still came back from the dead.
jil...@hotmail.com
who know Buffy is dead are Angel Investigations, the Scoobies and very
likely the Watchers.
Her father doesn't know she's dead, and they go to great pains to make
sure he thinks everything is all right. Dawn is getting no
counselling. Tara and Willow are keeping her well, we see... but since
Willow is planning to bring Buffy back, my suspicion is that Dawn is
getting no real discussion with any of the others. Probably only Spike
would be useful there, and we don't know if he was, that's not covered.
Giles is mourning and semi-replacing Buffy with the robot.
Opus the Penguin
> I agree about the creepy implications of having the Buffybot
> around, but unlike you I didn't get tired of it in "Bargaining."
> I was sad when it finally got destroyed. I thought its Dadaisms
> were endlessly hilarious.
I thought it would have been a bold move *not* to resurrect Buffy.
Ever. Just continue the story with the Buffybot. It would have been
interesting to see the scoobies try to fine tune her to be more and
more like Buffy and get more and more conflicted as they succeeded.
--
Opus the Penguin
The best darn penguin in all of Usenet
Opus the Penguin
> This is a case of Real Life interfering with art. ASH wanted to
> spend more time with his family in England, so he is no longer
> appearing in every episode.
Stupid Real Life. I hate it so much!
Opus the Penguin
> One little moment I especially like is when one of them lets loose
> a high pitched throaty screech - my second favorite scream in
> BtVS.
The first one being from "Hush"?
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > Hairstyle update: both Xander and Anya look pretty good in the new era.
>
> --What, you have nothing to say about Spike's fetching 'do? I know
> you've been seeing him curly-haired since the last part of season 5,
> but really, doesn't he look great with curls? I think they should have
> always, always had him curly-haired.
Neutral there. His hair has always been pretty striking, whatever they
do with it, so I think it works either way.
> >Here, since the show's about
> > Buffy and the world revolves around her, they're going to have to let
> > us in.
>
> --Wow, are you ever perceptive! I mean it
Thanks.
> > Having seen it in the opening credits made me perhaps a little too
> > ready to view Dawn hanging on to the back of Spike on a motorcycle,
> > wearing a football helmet, as the Money Moment of their scenes
> > together. Silly, but I liked it. Since I figured that'd appear this
> > week, I was basically waiting for their non-suspense scenes together in
> > the house to get to that point.
>
> --Nobody has ever mentioned this before to my knowledge, but in the
> back of my mind it always bothered me that we saw Spike and Dawn on the
> motorcycle in the opening credits of "Bargaining" before actually
> getting to the point in the story when it occurs. It does have a bad
> effect on a first time viewer who notices it in the credits and then is
> just waiting for it to come along.
And compared to the other examples people have mentioned, like the
chainsaw in the S4 credits, well, "Fear Itself" doesn't show us the
chainsaw until the moment Giles cuts his way into the house, so one
doesn't spend one's time "just waiting for it to come along." Whereas
"Bargaining" is full of motorcycles, and puts Spike and Dawn together
for an extended sequence...
> Hey, though, AOQ, had you really not seen "Bargaining" yet when you
> wrote a few days ago that you could imagine Spike enjoying a
> motorcycle, and keeping one if he ever got a chance to? Now you see
> why I said you were so astute! (If indeed it was astuteness, and not
> just viewing ahead...)
As I watched that I was saying "hey, that's a nice coincidence. I hope
he keeps it afterward, cuz then I'll look really smart and stuff."
> What did you think of Spike's reaction to its comments about his pecs
> and washboard abs, AOQ? I always found that an interesting scene.
Forgot to mention that, in part because I don't have a pat answer as to
what it means, although it's interesting. He seems so disgusted by it.
My working theory on trying to figure out Spike is that his attachment
to Buffy is now manifestng itself as trying to live for her, so to
speak, do everything as she would've wanted. Even though she won't be
around to win over, that's become its own reward. So that means
following all of her implicit and explicit requests, not just the ones
he's made promises about. This scene then follows from the end of
"Intervention."
-AOQ
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
bs pbhefr vgf nafjrerq va gur arkg rcvfbqr
jura gurl ernyvmrq ohssl qht ure jnl bhg
naq knaqre pbzzrgaf ba ubj fghcvq gurl jrer
naq jvyybj fnlf fur qvqag ernyvmr
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> That she did it herself only makes her less hypocritical than someone
> who buys her meat already neatly packaged. Either way they are
> benefiting from the killing of an animal.
because its not about killing a deer
for meat
its about sacraficing an animal to a god
for a favor
thats a step up from praying to a god
the next step up is sacraficing humans
Arbitrar Of Quality
> > long the episode goes before they bring her back, all I can say is that
> > the gang have never seemed more like The Sidekicks, incapable of
> > carrying a show without their main character.
>
> life at various points in the series when Buffy wasn't around. And
> there's nothing inherent in the characters of Tara or Anya to say they
> couldn't do the same. Compare the scenes without Buffy in this episode
> to the scenes with Xander, Willow, and Oz (and later Cordeila)
> protecting Sunnydale without her in "Anne." It's a night-and-day
> difference.
Well, can't contribute more there since I kinda hated the Sunnydale
parts of "Anne." Except fot the opening, but I liked the opening here
okay too.
> As far as I'm concerned, this is Spike's one and only moment of true
> nobility in the entire series. I don't believe he cared about Dawn in
> general, but James Marsters made me believe that he cared about her
> here.
Well, he cares about her in large part because Buffy did. We can talk
about selflessness or nobility, but in any sense, I'd say Buffy's the
reason for everything he does in "Bargaining."
> Definitely not an auspicious beginning.
I think I liked it better than you did, but agreed.
-AOQ
One Bit Shy
news:Xns980FDB74884EEop...@127.0.0.1...
> One Bit Shy (O...@nomail.sorry) wrote:
>
>> One little moment I especially like is when one of them lets loose
>> a high pitched throaty screech - my second favorite scream in
>> BtVS.
>
> The first one being from "Hush"?
Nice guess, but nope.
OBS
Arbitrar Of Quality
> I have *no* time right now, but I'm not sure you noticed what the title
> signifies: It's one of the steps of grieving. I think it goes - denial,
> anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance.
>
> Thought you might like that.
If I eat all my vegetables, can the next episode be better?
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Also, you made one huge assumption in your review which, if I remember,
> I'll specify as a less spoilery time.
[Shrug.] Wouldn't be the first time...
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
Apteryx wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > believe that with proper programming, a robot, and one constructed in a
> > matter of weeks no less, can fight almost as well as a Slayer. That
> > doesn't sit right with me at all in terms of the show's mystique.
> > The One Girl In All The World premise only works if you stick with it.
>
> If you stick with it? Kendra? Faith? These names ring a bell at all?
Those were part of the Slayer mythology, though. Basically, the
series's fundamental conceit is that, to paraphrase Stephen, a girl who
punches really hard and does backflips is the world's best defense
against the forces of darkness. That's why I don't like too many
fighting machines.
> > Given the title of the series, we know that Willow's spell will work
> > after the interruption, so that's a dose of the suspense that is not.
>
> I think the fact that it is a two parter is a bigger spoiler for that.
> We know from the series title that Buffy will be back, but if they had
> played the series opener straight with a single episode, we wouldn't
> have had any basis to be sure that this particular attempt would
> suceed.
Interesting point. They could've kept the audience wondering how long
they could go before finally bringing the real Buffy back. And then
relieved us by doing it right away, given how slow "Bargaining" gets in
places...
> > compelling TV if there's nothing else going on. Dawn's speech to
> > her sister atop the tower is apparently meant as an emotional climax to
> > all that, but seems remarkably flat, which may or may not be part of
> > the point. Here I don't know how others feel, but one thing that
> > damaged the scene for ne was that Dawn was the one opposite Buffy.
> > I've grown to like her, and she's had some powerful moments with
> > her sister in the past, but ultimately we've known her for less than
> > a year. From the viewer's perspective, she's not one of the people
> > who've been by Buffy's side and grown together with her from the
> > beginning of the series.
>
> Yeah. I think it has to be Dawn because it was Buffy and Dawn there at
> the end of The Gift, but I don't care for the scene.
Yet another example of how in terms of concepts, "Bargaining" holds up
well... I just wish it were a better viewing experience.
> If I rated it as a single episode I'd agree with Decent, and with the
> one sentence summary. In fact I split it to give every season (except
> S1) 22 episodes, so in fact I rate Part 1 a low Good (because it has
> the humour and hasn't got protracted yet) and Part 2 as Decent. They
> are my 77th and 110th favourite BtVS episodes, 9th and 15th best in
> season 6.
I'd probably go Decent for both halves, about equal quality. Both drag
some and both have their share of good moments (Part I has Willow
getting all dark and creepy, Part II has Buffy looking so damaged...)
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Hi. You're back quicker than I expected... Or maybe I lost track of time.
> Anyway, onwards...
Well, it's been a week since the 5-22 review and five days since the
pilot review, which is about the standard. But the thread for "The
Gift" was, shall we say, massive, and lasted even longer than the
"Restless" thread...
> According to the commentary this was not originally planned to be a double
> length episode, but rather two separate ones. UPN approached them with the
> request for a 2 hour Buffy movie as a premiere, so they reworked it. It's
> not clear what exactly changed, but I think it was fairly substantial. One
> thing mentioned is that the ending was originally conceived as much briefer
> and without the big effect of the crumbling tower. The drawn out scene with
> Dawn became the big closer for the special event.
That would make sense given the very last shot, which pretty much
screams that this is not the end, things are not fine, there's more
story to tell, see you next week...
> I don't think he's gotten to the point of knowing what moving on means other
> than leaving, and I'm sure that part of his motivation is to get way from
> the site of his pain (and the sight of the Buffybot), but I still think the
> primary motivation is his feeling that he lacks purpose in Sunnydale. I
> think that's the main point of his scene with the Buffybot where he finds
> himself reduced to providing pointless training to it. Teach the Buffybot
> proper techniques of breathing? Your thought of how else he might be useful
> is valid - but that itself would be a form of moving on. The role he
> actually played had come to an end.
True enough.
> > all I can say is that
> > the gang have never seemed more like The Sidekicks, incapable of
> > carrying a show without their main character.
>
> Yep. I think that's the idea. And the problem with such an idea - as valid
> as it may be - is that it doesn't make for thrilling viewing.
Agreed as completely as possible.
> I think the problem with this scene is timing. The decision to bring back
> Buffy is too big to be made lightly, so I suppose the writers felt obligated
> to show the difficulty of it. But the thing is that all that angst occurred
> somewhere in the summer before this episode occurs. This is a bout of cold
> feet overlaid awkwardly with some lip service to the difficulty of the
> original decision. I don't think it plays well in the end.
And again. That's a good summary, thanks.
> She and Spike are always good together. Too bad she isn't older. She might
> be a better match for Spike than Buffy.
Something about either the character or Marsters's acting makes pretty
much every one-on-one dynamic involving Spike works well. Besides the
obvious stuff with Buffy, scenes between Spike/Dawn, Spike/Xander,
Spike/Giles, and Spike/Anya (what little we see of the last one) are
usually worth taking note of. I guess he just needs more time with
Willow to complete the set. I think Dawn works much better crushing on
him than actually being proposed as a serious match for him, though.
> That's a fair review. I don't care a lot for this episode. To my mind it's
> the weakest season opener to date and one of the worst shows of this season.
> (Which does imply a lot better to come.)
Much better than "Judgment," at least (IMHO), if you count all season
openers. So, how was the ATS premiere ("Heartthrob," right?)? I won't
ask those questions anymore, but just this once...
-AOQ
One Bit Shy
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>> She and Spike are always good together. Too bad she isn't older. She
>> might
>> be a better match for Spike than Buffy.
>
> Something about either the character or Marsters's acting makes pretty
> much every one-on-one dynamic involving Spike works well. Besides the
> obvious stuff with Buffy, scenes between Spike/Dawn, Spike/Xander,
> Spike/Giles, and Spike/Anya (what little we see of the last one) are
> usually worth taking note of. I guess he just needs more time with
> Willow to complete the set. I think Dawn works much better crushing on
> him than actually being proposed as a serious match for him, though.
I was thinking in terms of making Spike less crazy. But you're right about
all of that. Just idle thought on my part. I guess this episode promotes
it.
>> That's a fair review. I don't care a lot for this episode. To my mind
>> it's
>> the weakest season opener to date and one of the worst shows of this
>> season.
>> (Which does imply a lot better to come.)
>
> Much better than "Judgment," at least (IMHO), if you count all season
> openers. So, how was the ATS premiere ("Heartthrob," right?)? I won't
> ask those questions anymore, but just this once...
Ha, ha. I think the reason this review seemed to come so soon for me is
that I've been using the interlude to watch S3 of AtS, which I just finished
today. So I'm kinda overdosed on the viewing. But I still fit Bargaining
in before your review.
I did mean that this was the weakest BtVS opener. The series opener for AtS
I think beats this. But not S2 or S3. Don't let that deter you from S3.
You did say earlier that I could say something general about the AtS season.
So I'll say that it's worth doing the episode reviews for. And that it is
easily the most coherent season to date. I don't have a strong sense of how
much you'd like the season. There are reasons you might not, but I also
think it's possible you'll love it. I pretty much got a kick out of it
myself.
OBS
Kermit
free to skip this one, as it was dreadful. Mind now, I stopped after
about twenty minutes, so I suppose it is possible it got better. In the
20 minutes I watched, they used the actual words, "what can I say about
this scene" eight or nine times. And, as it turned out, the answer
virtually every time was not much.
As to the episode itself, I can't disagree too much. I did like the
buffybot more than you.
Highlight of the episode: Willow in the forest with the fawn. Hard to
see her as the same Willow that was going to help Xander with his math
homework in WTTH.
I have this theory. Like most of my theories it is completely
unsupported by anything as restricting as facts, but still ...
I think when Willow tried the second time to restore Angel's soul in
Becoming, someone or something recognized that she a) had real potential
magically speaking, b) was weakened by her injuries and c) could be
controlled. Whoever or whatever it was, it decided to set up shop inside
her. And then it waited, helping her along the path to magical power.
Why did it do that? To bring Buffy back. The answer to the question that
natural follows from that answer will have to wait awhile, as there is a
tiny little spoiler in the answer.
Clairel
>
> >
> > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > Season Six, Episode 1: "Bargaining"
> > Writers: Marti Noxon (Part I) & David Fury (Part II)
> > Director: David Grossman
>
> scale: the effect of the pacing on me was to give a flavour of the sheer
> grind of trying to fill the Slayer's shoes and how the facade they were
> putting up was exactly that: a facade. They knew that Buffy wasn't just
> in LA.
>
> Also, you made one huge assumption in your review which, if I remember,
> I'll specify as a less spoilery time.
--Can you ROT13 it? I'd like to know what you're referring to.
Clairel
Clairel
BTR1701 wrote:
> In article <1154204927.0...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> > after the interruption, so that's a dose of the suspense that is not.
> > the resurrection magic, because there's some strong cinematography
> > there. The scene by the pond with Willow sacrificing the fawn is
> > beautifully shot, perfect as a counterpart to the sudden violence.
> > It's important to the episode that this be seen as real deep dark
> > magic, and I think it succeeds there. The bug-like bulges under her
> > skin help with that too, as does Xander's reaction to the snake.
> > Finally, I'm a big fan of the visual of the decaying corpse fading
> > into a living Buffster, and her subsequent panicked attempts to claw
> > her way out.
>
> Yeah, it was great for the creepy-factor but I always wonder why the
> gang never thought about that. I mean, shouldn't they have dug up the
> coffin and opened it before performing the spell, so as to forego the
> emotional traumatization of being buried alive?
>
> And if the motorcycle demons hadn't scattered them all into the forest,
> what would they have done? Just sat around waiting until Buffy clawed
> her way out of the ground like a reject from a Romero film?
--Though they were wrong to assume it, I think they just assumed Buffy
would magically appear above the ground.
Willow should have known better, though, since she knew all the details
of the spell.
Clairel
cry...@panix.com
Don Sample
"Clairel" <reld...@usa.net> wrote:
I think you will find it in the section: "...gur fubj unf chyyrq onpx
sebz Ohssl'f rkcrevrapr. Fur'f orra guebhtu frireny ynlref bs uryy
orsber, ohg gura gur ivrjre jnf nyjnlf jvgu ure." Vg vf gur fnzr
nffhzcgvba gung nyy gur Fpbbovrf unir znqr.
BTR1701
"Clairel" <reld...@usa.net> wrote:
Why would they assume that? I mean, even if they thought it might
happen, or even if they thought it would probably happen (despite
nothing to suggest it actually would happen), why wouldn't they err on
the side of caution and make sure their friend wouldn't wake up buried
alive?
BTR1701
<mair_fheal-76532...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > How does killing the fawn make her any worse than someone who eats meat?
> > That she did it herself only makes her less hypocritical than someone
> > who buys her meat already neatly packaged. Either way they are
> > benefiting from the killing of an animal.
>
> because its not about killing a deer
> for meat
>
> its about sacraficing an animal to a god
> for a favor
In terms of cost/benefit, the death of this animal buys more than a
cow's death buys for hamburger.
One just sustains a person for the length of a meal. The other restores
a person's entire life.
The fawn's death was much more meaningful and beneficial than some
random hamburger patty ever could be.
> the next step up is sacraficing humans
Not any more than the next step up from having a cheeseburger is
cannibalism.
BTR1701
<mair_fheal-6B470...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
Which is exactly what I said. Why wouldn't this have even occurred to
them? Any of them? It occurred to me five seconds after I realized what
they were going to do.
This is another example of the characters being written as idiots for
the sake of "drama".
Paul Hyett
greykitten tomys des anges wrote :
>> How does killing the fawn make her any worse than someone who eats meat?
>> That she did it herself only makes her less hypocritical than someone
>> who buys her meat already neatly packaged. Either way they are
>> benefiting from the killing of an animal.
>
>because its not about killing a deer
>for meat
>
>its about sacraficing an animal to a god
>for a favor
>
it appeared as if she killed the dear without anguish or regret - the
very opposite of the original intent.
--
Paul 'Charts Fan' Hyett
Daniel Damouth
> How does killing the fawn make her any worse than someone who eats
> meat? That she did it herself only makes her less hypocritical
> than someone who buys her meat already neatly packaged. Either
> way they are benefiting from the killing of an animal.
Don, killing a young, pretty animal is evil. I don't eat them. I
belong to PETAA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Attractive
Animals).
-Dan Damouth
Kermit
>> That was a powerful moment and one that's not easily forgotten. Willow
>> tapped into something extremely dark and seeing her kill that fawn made
>> me look at Willow in a completely different light. Sure she can still
>> sound all cute and innocent with words like "rumbly tummy" and such but
>> she's definitely not innocent Willow anymore.
>
> How does killing the fawn make her any worse than someone who eats meat?
> That she did it herself only makes her less hypocritical than someone
> who buys her meat already neatly packaged. Either way they are
> benefiting from the killing of an animal.
>
of a random animal vs the life of human is a no-brainer for most people.
The scene is more about evoking a lifetime of memories from movies and
books about what kind of magic involves the calculated slaughter of an
innocent. I mean, blood sacrifices, not generally linked to positive,
life giving forces.
Kermit
PS Of course, emotional attachments being what they are, there are
plenty of folks who might entertain a certain amount of risk to save a
beloved pet. Not that this situation has anything to do with Willow did,
just saying.
Kevin
BTR1701 wrote:
> "Clairel" <reld...@usa.net> wrote:
> > --Though they were wrong to assume it, I think they just assumed Buffy
> > would magically appear above the ground.
>
> Why would they assume that?
I wish Willow could've done a spell that made a good, tight script
magically appear each week. ("Now only 10% slow and boring. No MSG.")
--Kevin
Elisi
> Finally, I'm a big fan of the visual of the decaying corpse fading
> into a living Buffster, and her subsequent panicked attempts to claw
> her way out.
The thing is... we've already seen this, a long, long time ago. I'm
surprised no one has mentioned it. From 'Nightmares' 1.10:
~~~~
Buffy: This is a dream.
Master: A dream is a wish your heart makes. (grabs Buffy by the neck.)
This is real life. (pulls her around so her back is to the open grave)
Come on, Slayer! What are you afraid of?
He growls and bares his teeth, but doesn't bite. He throws her into the
coffin at the bottom of the grave, and the lid slams shut.
Buffy: No! Help me!
Master: How 'bout being buried alive?
The Master laughs maniacally as he starts to shovel dirt into the
grave.
Buffy: Somebody help me! Please! No! No! Please! No! No! No! Somebody
help me! Please! No!
The first shovelful of dirt hits the coffin, and some falls in through
the cracks of the poorly constructed coffin.
Buffy: Please! No! Help me! No!
The next shovelful of dirt covers the crack between the boards.
Buffy: Help!
~~~~
It would be terrifying for *anyone* to wake up in a coffin... but it's
is one of Buffy's *specific* nightmares. That her friends just
re-created.
But back in Season 1 this happened afterwards:
~~~
They walk through the rift into the cemetery.
Xander: Whose nightmare is this?
Giles looks at a gravestone that reads: Buffy Summers 1981 - 1997.
Giles: It's mine.
They all gather around the grave. Giles kneels next to it.
Giles: I've failed... in my duty to protect you. I should have been
more c... cautious. Taken more time to train you. But you were so
gifted. And the evil was so great. I'm sorry...
He lays his hand on the fresh soil. As he starts to get up a hand
reaches up through the dirt and grabs his. Willow screams. Giles tears
himself away as Buffy comes up through the dirt out of the grave. She
brushes herself off.
Giles: Buffy?
She looks up. She has turned into a vampire.
~~~~~
I know 'Baragining' is rather slow, but I do like it. In 'Nightmares'
everything was fine again once Billy woke up. But this isn't a dream
anymore...
Elisi
Yes.
Stephen Tempest
>When this was first shown in Britain, that scene was badly cut, so that
>it appeared as if she killed the dear without anguish or regret - the
>very opposite of the original intent.
Was that the Sky showing or the BBC one? Because at least the BBC
shopwed the uncut version near midnight every week, as well as the
kiddie one at 6:30...
Incidentally, it makes plain in the DVD extras that Aly really *hated*
filming that scene...
Stephen
Stephen Tempest
>Which is exactly what I said. Why wouldn't this have even occurred to
>them? Any of them? It occurred to me five seconds after I realized what
>they were going to do.
>
>This is another example of the characters being written as idiots for
>the sake of "drama".
Willow believed - or claimed to believe, anyway - that Buffy was in a
Hell dimension. She died jumping through a portal, after all. The
spell she cast called on Osiris to let Buffy 'cross over' - presumably
from her current location back to our dimension.
So maybe Willow expected a shimmery portal to open in the air over
Buffy's grave, and for her to step out of it clad in a brand-new
replacement body? Clearly, she didn't think that Buffy's soul would
be put back into her old body, as actually happened. And the others
had been kept in the dark by Willow, who seems to have simply told
them to trust her because she knew what she was doing.
Clearly she didn't...
Stephen
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Stephen Tempest <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
yhbt
yhl
hand
Michael Ikeda
news:qkpnc2958ea7kp9i8...@4ax.com:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> writes:
>
>>First we're
>>running through the graveyard and worrying that the show's
>>lighting budget has been cut back to Early Years levels,
>
> Notice that Willow is using the same telepathy to coordinate
> them that she used in The Gift - and she gets impatient when
> Xander and Anya complain about how intrusive it is?
>
>
>>First of all, it gets old. More to the point, the show doesn't
>>do much to address the creepiness that's inherent in keeping
>>this thing around the house, in the place of their dead
>>friend/relative, choosing instead to use it for almost pure
>>comic relief.
>
> Um, which episode were *you* watching? Because it can't have
> been the one in which:
>
> Dawn gets out of bed and curls up in the lifeless arms of the
> robot copy of her sister...
>
> The Buffybot compliments Spike, and he gets all defensive and
> bristly and asks Willow why she hasn't removed that part of the
> programming...
>
> Giles is trying to impart the Buffybot with all the training
> he'd wanted to give to Buffy, but now she's dead...
>
> The Buffybot smiles and hugs Dawn, saying "You're my sister!",
> and Dawn looks acutely uncomfortable at the reminder that she
> really isn't, but doesn't have the heart to tell her to stop...
>
> "Just comic relief"???
>
One other thing about the Buffybot. The Scoobies do have good and
logical reasons for keeping the Buffybot around. But I think the
biggest reason is emotional. They're still in serious denial about
Buffy's death. They want to pretend that Buffy isn't really dead,
or at least that they'll get her back and everything will *poof* be
fine again. And having the Buffy-bot there helps them pretend.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
3D Master
>> the gang have never seemed more like The Sidekicks, incapable of
>> carrying a show without their main character.
>
> life at various points in the series when Buffy wasn't around. And
> there's nothing inherent in the characters of Tara or Anya to say they
> couldn't do the same. Compare the scenes without Buffy in this episode
> to the scenes with Xander, Willow, and Oz (and later Cordeila)
> protecting Sunnydale without her in "Anne." It's a night-and-day
> difference.
>
>> bodyguard, until one thinks it through and sees that it does kinda make
>> sense. I wonder if she ever gets a moment away from him. No matter
>> what ATS may occasionally find it useful to claim, I'd say vampires
>> have the capacity to change some, yes? The thing about Buffy having
>> him promise to take care of Dawn back in TG was that it was an easy
>> scene to ignore, given that heroes always say stuff like this before
>> the big fight, and Spike would've by TV rules seemed more likely to
>> die than Buffy. Now in the aftermath, he's going to live up to it
>> with an intensity/obsession that follows the tone of how he was with
>> all things Buffy. But what about the dangers of secondhand smoke, huh?
>
> As far as I'm concerned, this is Spike's one and only moment of true
> nobility in the entire series. I don't believe he cared about Dawn in
> general, but James Marsters made me believe that he cared about her
> here.
Nah, he stuck around because the Scoobies don't dust him as long as he
behaves. Out there, a vampire hunter won't care one bit about his chip,
won't know about it, and if he tries explaining he'll already be dust
before he can utter the third word.
And as for Dawn: well, Buffy's gone, Dawn's her sister, her magically
created clone even, she's the next best thing.
3D Master
--
~~~~~
"I've got something to say; it's better to burn out than to fade away!"
- The Kurgan, Highlander
"Give me some sugar, baby!"
- Ashley J. 'Ash' Williams, Army of Darkness
~~~~~
Author of several stories, which can be found here:
http://members.chello.nl/~jg.temolder1/
Opus the Penguin
> "Opus the Penguin" <opusthepen...@gmail.com> wrote in
> message news:Xns980FDB74884EEop...@127.0.0.1...
>> One Bit Shy (O...@nomail.sorry) wrote:
>>
>>> One little moment I especially like is when one of them lets
>>> loose a high pitched throaty screech - my second favorite scream
>>> in BtVS.
>>
>> The first one being from "Hush"?
>
> Nice guess, but nope.
>
I'm out of guesses. The only other screams I really recall came from
Dawn. But I don't think any of those would make your list.
--
Opus the Penguin
The best darn penguin in all of Usenet
3D Master
> In article <joudnTzi9NP4T1bZ...@comcast.com>,>>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>>> threads.
>>>
>>>
>>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>>> Season Six, Episode 1: "Bargaining"
>>> (or "Don't make Dead Slayer angry")
>>> Writers: Marti Noxon (Part I) & David Fury (Part II)
>>> Director: David Grossman
>>>
>>> believe that with proper programming, a robot, and one constructed in a
>>> matter of weeks no less, can fight almost as well as a Slayer. That
>>> doesn't sit right with me at all in terms of the show's mystique.
>>> The One Girl In All The World premise only works if you stick with it.
>>> finally done with this stupid thing.
>> Actually, the point was made early on (with the vampire slicing the bots
>> head open with a bottle) that the Bot could never replace the real
>> Slayer. Certainly, real Buffy could handle the patrols and the vampires
>> without the need of all the Scoobies tagging along to fight alongside
>> her. The Bot was a much needed decoy to keep the local demons in check
>> and to give Dawn a legal guardian.
>
> And this isn't the first robot we've seen that could fight. Both Ted
> and April were able to hold their own against Buffy (and Buffybot would
> have inherited a lot of April's programming.)
In fact, April seems to practically kick Buffy's ass. Which makes you
wonder; why the hell can't the demon biker gang do to the real Buffy
that they can do to the Buffybot? They outnumber her enough, got enough
bikes; Buffy isn't stronger than the bot, what gives?
In the same vein: how come the rest of the Scoobs and Spike are suddenly
pathetic? Willow was already stronger than Buffy last season, quite a
bit too. She stopped Glory in her tracks for a short while with raw
strength, where Buffy only got her as kicked. Yet now she can't do
anything? Xander has stakes vamps before, now he can't do anything?
Spike's a master vampire who's killed two Slayers already, but no he
can't handle a flunky vampire?
The whole episode is one big ham-handed, over the top, Buffy rules,
everybody else is pathetic, so they need to bring her back, episode. And
it makes no sense, because it comes out of nowhere. One of them actually
being stronger than Buffy. Lots stronger.
More so. Last year when Dawn tried to resurrect her mother, everyone was
all: bad Dawn, you can't do that, it's bad, it's evil, it's dark, dark
magic, and your mother isn't coming back correctly anyway, she's be some
kind of twisted thing. But now they're all: Ooh, let's resurrect Buffy.
(And the occasional: I'm not sure.) It really should be just about all
of them, especially Tara and Xander going: No way in hell!
It's a really bad episode, quite frankly, I would have thought they
could have come up with a more plausible, less heavy-handed, and more
interesting approach. But alas, this is the beginning of the end.
3D Master
> Clairel wrote:
>
> Forgot to mention that, in part because I don't have a pat answer as to
> what it means, although it's interesting. He seems so disgusted by it.
> My working theory on trying to figure out Spike is that his attachment
> to Buffy is now manifestng itself as trying to live for her, so to
> speak, do everything as she would've wanted. Even though she won't be
> around to win over, that's become its own reward. So that means
> following all of her implicit and explicit requests, not just the ones
> he's made promises about. This scene then follows from the end of
> "Intervention."
Nah, he's just there because the Scoobies don't dust him, unlike other
vampire hunters out there, and Dawn? Well, magically created
clone/Buffy's sister, Buffy's not here... next best thing.
3D Master
>
> She and Spike are always good together. Too bad she isn't older. She might
> be a better match for Spike than Buffy.
Yeah, that's probably Spike's idea as well... well, okay, perhaps not
'better', but close enough.
alphakitten
>
> And as for Dawn: well, Buffy's gone, Dawn's her sister, her magically
> created clone even, she's the next best thing.
As always, your fanfic and the actual show are worlds apart. Thank Christ.
~Angel
Elisi
3D Master wrote:
> Nah, he stuck around because the Scoobies don't dust him as long as he
> behaves. Out there, a vampire hunter won't care one bit about his chip,
> won't know about it, and if he tries explaining he'll already be dust
> before he can utter the third word.
What other vampire hunters? Faith's in prison. And as we see in this ep
there are backwaters like the one the Hellions came from, where no
Champion ever comes. Spike could perfectly easily go somewhere similar
and settle down. What's keeping him in Sunnydale is the promise he made
to Buffy.
Shuggie
>
> Buffy doesn't appear in the flesh until about midway through the
> show, and she's front and center for the rest, albeit only getting
> about three lines of dialogue. On the plus side, not everything's
> happily back to normal, and it's unclear whether it'll ever be. On
> the minus side, it's hard to get too invested in this, and I think
> the reason is that the show has pulled back from Buffy's experience.
> She's been through several layers of hell before, but then the viewer
> was always with her. The only time I can remember having a problem
> with getting into her head is "When She Was Bad," and even there we
> do tend to know what she's experienced, and by the end of that
> episode, her behavior is fully understandable. The rest of the time,
> the viewer has always shared the hero's journey. This, on the other
> hand, is more like what happened to Angel in S3. We only have a vague
> idea of what she's been through, and how she's perceiving the
> world. S3 could get away with this, because Angel wasn't the main
> character, and only had to be seen for a few minutes each episode,
> almost always from the hero's POV. Here, since the show's about
> Buffy and the world revolves around her, they're going to have to let
> us in.
You're showing your trademark impatience again. The essence of drama is
the tension set up by asking questions that are not answered straight
away. It's about wanting to know what happens next.
In this specific instance, knowing exactly what Buffy's been through
would be counter-productive anyway. We need to identify with Buffy's
sense of bewilderment and not quite knowing where she is.
>
> I don't want to discount the power of Gellar's haunted look in
> keeping these scenes alive. So, not that that isn't working for the
> show. It is. A lot. And the old trick of having Buffy run from
> fights, and then recover her action-hero ways, continues to work
> reasonably well. But ultimately I don't think it's enough for
> compelling TV if there's nothing else going on. Dawn's speech to
> her sister atop the tower is apparently meant as an emotional climax to
> all that, but seems remarkably flat, which may or may not be part of
> the point. Here I don't know how others feel, but one thing that
> damaged the scene for ne was that Dawn was the one opposite Buffy.
> I've grown to like her, and she's had some powerful moments with
> her sister in the past, but ultimately we've known her for less than
> a year. From the viewer's perspective, she's not one of the people
> who've been by Buffy's side and grown together with her from the
> beginning of the series.
>
You may be right about it feeling flat, but it had to be Dawn because we
were re-visiting the place Buffy died and that's who was there when she
died. It had to be Dawn and it had to be atop the tower.
<snip>
> At least they're letting Willow and Tara kiss on screen again. I
> think that's only allowed in episodes about death. (Actually, I
> think it's a network thing.)
>
Actually they never said he couldn't have them kiss but Joss held it
back so it'd mean more when they did, and he specifically put it in a
place where it couldn't be seen as exploitative - in The Body - but as a
moment of intimacy. Intimacy in grief.
--
Shuggie
my blog - http://shuggie.livejournal.com/
Shuggie
> Clairel (reld...@usa.net) wrote:
>
>> I agree about the creepy implications of having the Buffybot
>> around, but unlike you I didn't get tired of it in "Bargaining."
>> I was sad when it finally got destroyed. I thought its Dadaisms
>> were endlessly hilarious.
>
> I thought it would have been a bold move *not* to resurrect Buffy.
> Ever. Just continue the story with the Buffybot. It would have been
> interesting to see the scoobies try to fine tune her to be more and
> more like Buffy and get more and more conflicted as they succeeded.
>
This is a new and strange definition of the word 'interesting' of which
I was hitherto unware.
Shuggie
>
> More so. Last year when Dawn tried to resurrect her mother, everyone was
> all: bad Dawn, you can't do that, it's bad, it's evil, it's dark, dark
> magic, and your mother isn't coming back correctly anyway, she's be some
> kind of twisted thing. But now they're all: Ooh, let's resurrect Buffy.
> (And the occasional: I'm not sure.) It really should be just about all
> of them, especially Tara and Xander going: No way in hell!
Crucially though Willow didn't say that to Dawn and she's the prime
force behind bringing Buffy back. Tara's clearly uncomfortable about it
but it's what Willow wants. Xander is the voice of uneasiness that
they're all feeling. Apart from Willow who won't let herself.
Plus this is not like bringing back Joyce. There's that whole 'mystical
death' loophole.
Shuggie
>> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> > But here we're meant to
>> > believe that with proper programming, a robot, and one constructed in a
>> > matter of weeks no less, can fight almost as well as a Slayer. That
>> > doesn't sit right with me at all in terms of the show's mystique.
>> > The One Girl In All The World premise only works if you stick with it.
>>
>
> Those were part of the Slayer mythology, though. Basically, the
> series's fundamental conceit is that, to paraphrase Stephen, a girl who
> punches really hard and does backflips is the world's best defense
> against the forces of darkness. That's why I don't like too many
> fighting machines.
>
That's a reasonable objection, except that from day one ME made it their
job to undermine that mythology. The real Slayer Mythology, or the Buffy
Mythology is that it's not punching hard and doing backflips that's her
true strength. Her real strength is self-belief.
vague disclaimer
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What other vampire hunters? Faith's in prison.
OK - back away from that chain of thought and keep your hands where we
can see 'em.
--
Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
One Bit Shy
news:btr1702-0D8C31...@news.giganews.com...
Perhaps Willow's research found two classes of spells - re-animation
(zombie) and resurrection - and had gotten the false impression (undoubtedly
through ambiguous text) that only the former worked by awakening the old
body. We do know that one working assumption of hers was that she was
drawing Buffy back from a Hell dimension - something akin to what happened
with Angel. (Of course that might suggest that Buffy would materialize
where she died - in mid-air by the tower. But figuring these things out are
hard and error prone - something the series has repeatedly shown about both
magic and Willow.) Whatever the answer may be, all we know is that Willow
didn't expect what happened. It would also be an assumption to believe that
Willow didn't have a reason to believe Buffy wouldn't materialize in her
coffin.
OBS
One Bit Shy
Sure. Willow's never had a mistaken idea of how her spells work before
this. Never charged forward with incomplete knowledge of a spell and
arrogant, but false certainty that she knew what she was doing. Completely
out of character for her.
OBS
James Craine
Kermit wrote:
> Kermit
>
> PS Of course, emotional attachments being what they are, there are
> plenty of folks who might entertain a certain amount of risk to save a
> beloved pet. Not that this situation has anything to do with Willow did,
> just saying.
There is no 'might' about it. One of the most common reasons
given by people who did not evacuate from Katrina was that
they couldn't take their pets with them and they didn't want
to leave them behind. Real people facing a real threat made
a decision to stay behind when advised to run. They risked
their lives for their pets.
One Bit Shy
news:fsvup3-...@ID-256697.user.uni-berlin.de...
That's a nice way of putting that. It may also go a good ways towards
explaining her seemingly variable strength in battle when a little dose of
confidence seems to make her jump higher and punch harder.
Still, AOQ has a point. Whatever the source of her strength, the story
still has repeatedly focused the battles great and small onto her. She's
the one carrying the weight of the world. It gets a little awkward having
alternatives so akin to herself to offload that responsibility. Deflates
her special status some - not in the sense of how her makeup is unique,
which you address - but in the sense of being depended on. I think Kendra
actually did deflate that some - which was handled by keeping her elsewhere
most of the time and then killing her. Faith, on the other hand, emphasizes
Buffy's lonely status by proving to be a false hope for easing Buffy's
burden.
OBS
John Briggs
> In alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer on Sat, 29 Jul 2006, mariposas rand mair
> fheal greykitten tomys des anges wrote :
>>> How does killing the fawn make her any worse than someone who eats
>>> meat? That she did it herself only makes her less hypocritical than
>>> someone who buys her meat already neatly packaged. Either way they
>>> are benefiting from the killing of an animal.
>>
>> for meat
>>
>> its about sacraficing an animal to a god
>> for a favor
>>
> When this was first shown in Britain, that scene was badly cut, so
> that it appeared as if she killed the dear without anguish or regret
> - the very opposite of the original intent.
Poor dear :-)
Actually, the uncut version is badly cut. (ME cut it after the soundtrack
had been added.)
--
John Briggs
One Bit Shy
> One Bit Shy (O...@nomail.sorry) wrote:
>
>> "Opus the Penguin" <opusthepen...@gmail.com> wrote in
>> message news:Xns980FDB74884EEop...@127.0.0.1...
>>> One Bit Shy (O...@nomail.sorry) wrote:
>>>
>>>> One little moment I especially like is when one of them lets
>>>> loose a high pitched throaty screech - my second favorite scream
>>>> in BtVS.
>>>
>>> The first one being from "Hush"?
>>
>> Nice guess, but nope.
>>
>
> I'm out of guesses. The only other screams I really recall came from
> Dawn. But I don't think any of those would make your list.
Jvyybj'f fpernz va Gjb Gb Tb. Fvzvyne gb guvf bar, npghnyyl, ohg orggre.
OBS
magista
> What kind of parent-teacher day has kids and parents doing anything
> together?
A lot of schools have "Meet the Creature...er, Teacher" events where
families are invited out. Much more likely that that's what this is, so
early in the school year. It would make no sense for it to already be
an interview day.
> At first it's a bit jarring to see Spike as Dawn's devoted
> bodyguard, until one thinks it through and sees that it does kinda make
> sense. I wonder if she ever gets a moment away from him. No matter
> what ATS may occasionally find it useful to claim, I'd say vampires
> have the capacity to change some, yes? The thing about Buffy having
> him promise to take care of Dawn back in TG was that it was an easy
> scene to ignore, given that heroes always say stuff like this before
> the big fight, and Spike would've by TV rules seemed more likely to
> die than Buffy. Now in the aftermath, he's going to live up to it
> with an intensity/obsession that follows the tone of how he was with
> all things Buffy. But what about the dangers of secondhand smoke, huh?
Say whatever else you might about Spike, he is the type to always keep
a promise. Some sense of personal honour that has nothing to do with a
soul, perhaps? After all, in S2's "Lie to Me", he followed through on
his word to turn Ford into a vampire, even though Ford's plan to bring
him Buffy ultimately failed. Of course, he probably knew (as Ford
didn't), that F didn't stand much of a chance with Buffy still around -
but he still kept his promise.
Besides, Spike loved Buffy, Buffy loved Dawn, so Spike is still the
Victorian Gent looking to honour the memory of his dear departed.
George W Harris
<opusthepen...@gmail.com> wrote:
:One Bit Shy (O...@nomail.sorry) wrote:
:
:> "Opus the Penguin" <opusthepen...@gmail.com> wrote in
:> message news:Xns980FDB74884EEop...@127.0.0.1...
:>> One Bit Shy (O...@nomail.sorry) wrote:
:>>
:>>> One little moment I especially like is when one of them lets
:>>> loose a high pitched throaty screech - my second favorite scream
:>>> in BtVS.
:>>
:>> The first one being from "Hush"?
:>
:> Nice guess, but nope.
:>
:
:I'm out of guesses. The only other screams I really recall came from
:Dawn. But I don't think any of those would make your list.
There's Willow's scream from Doppelgangland.
"Could a human do this?"
--
/bud...@nirvana.net/h:k
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
BTR1701
One doesn't have to know how the spell will work in order to take common
sense precautions.
And besides, other than a bunch of fanwankery, there's nothing to
suggest that Willow or anyone else expected Buffy to just materialize
out of thin air.
They were doing the spell *on* her grave. It's more logical to believe
that's where they expected her to resurrect-- in her grave.
BTR1701
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe. All speculation and it still doesn't explain
why they wouldn't have dug up that coffin JUST IN CASE. Even if I
thought there was a 99.99999% chance she would pop out of thin air, I'd
still dig up that coffin before doing the spell. It wouldn't hurt
anything if I was right and it would save quite a bit of angst if I was
wrong.
BTR1701
shu...@gmail.com (Shuggie) wrote:
No, the message of the show is that Buffy is better than all those other
Slayers before her (most of whom believed in themselves just as much as
Buffy does) because of her friends and family.
peachy ashie passion
>
> And if the motorcycle demons hadn't scattered them all into the forest,
> what would they have done? Just sat around waiting until Buffy clawed
> her way out of the ground like a reject from a Romero film?
I remember figuring that the magic would bring her to the surface,
like one of Anita Blake's zombies. Not that I'd read Anita Blake yet.
peachy ashie passion
> Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in
> news:dsample-C99072...@news.giganews.com:
>
>
>>How does killing the fawn make her any worse than someone who eats
>>meat? That she did it herself only makes her less hypocritical
>>than someone who buys her meat already neatly packaged. Either
>>way they are benefiting from the killing of an animal.
>
>
> Don, killing a young, pretty animal is evil. I don't eat them. I
> belong to PETAA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Attractive
> Animals).
>
> -Dan Damouth
So killing an old ugly animal isn't evil?
peachy ashie passion
Amen.
Shuggie
Yes that's what the show keeps saying. And in terms of having a reason
to go on living it's true. In terms of fighting it's self-belief. There
are many occasions on which Buffy is left all alone and yet wins
through. Bargaining II is the epitome of this.
Mark Jones
> Perhaps Willow's research found two classes of spells - re-animation
> (zombie) and resurrection - and had gotten the false impression
> (undoubtedly through ambiguous text) that only the former worked by
> awakening the old body. We do know that one working assumption of hers
> was that she was drawing Buffy back from a Hell dimension - something akin
> to what happened with Angel. (Of course that might suggest that Buffy
> would materialize where she died - in mid-air by the tower. But figuring
> these things out are hard and error prone - something the series has
> repeatedly shown about both magic and Willow.) Whatever the answer may
> be, all we know is that Willow didn't expect what happened. It would also
> be an assumption to believe that Willow didn't have a reason to believe
> Buffy wouldn't materialize in her coffin.
You can fanwank it all you like, but I--a viewer who doesn't believe in
magic--IMMEDIATELY saw that they were making a big-ass mistake by not
digging Buffy up first. If you bring her back to life, It was the first
thought I had when I realized what sort of spell they intended.
That NOBODY in the scooby gang gave a moment's thought to the possibility
strikes me as implausible--as an idiot plot, in other words. After all, if
they'd made this elementary connection they'd have dug up her coffin and
Buffy would have been spared the horror of having to claw her way out of her
grave. This plot only works because they acted like idiots.
Arbitrar Of Quality
Post of the day.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
3D Master wrote:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> >
> > Forgot to mention that, in part because I don't have a pat answer as to
> > what it means, although it's interesting. He seems so disgusted by it.
> > My working theory on trying to figure out Spike is that his attachment
> > to Buffy is now manifestng itself as trying to live for her, so to
> > speak, do everything as she would've wanted. Even though she won't be
> > around to win over, that's become its own reward. So that means
> > following all of her implicit and explicit requests, not just the ones
> > he's made promises about. This scene then follows from the end of
> > "Intervention."
>
> Nah, he's just there because the Scoobies don't dust him, unlike other
> vampire hunters out there, and Dawn? Well, magically created
> clone/Buffy's sister, Buffy's not here... next best thing.
We're back to watching completely different shows, I guess.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
Except for the part when you actually watch the episode (and "After
Life" - review coming later today) and it's clearly not what they
expected.
-AOQ
Don Sample
BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
She didn't plan to have demon bikers interrupt.
The last part of the spell, that they didn't get to because they were
interrupted by the demons, might have been to raise Buffy up out of her
grave. Raising up her rotten corpse would have been just icky.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Arbitrar Of Quality
> You're showing your trademark impatience again.
I tried being patient, but it took too long...
The essence of drama is
> the tension set up by asking questions that are not answered straight
> away. It's about wanting to know what happens next.
>
> In this specific instance, knowing exactly what Buffy's been through
> would be counter-productive anyway. We need to identify with Buffy's
> sense of bewilderment and not quite knowing where she is.
My milage differs. I, and I'm not alone in this based on a few other
responses, didn't identify with her sense of bewilderment because until
the end, "Bargaining" doesn't even give us vague clues as to what's
going on in her mind. It pushes the viewer away from identifying with
her in a way unlike any previous episode of the series.
> > At least they're letting Willow and Tara kiss on screen again. I
> > think that's only allowed in episodes about death. (Actually, I
> > think it's a network thing.)
> >
> Actually they never said he couldn't have them kiss but Joss held it
> back so it'd mean more when they did, and he specifically put it in a
> place where it couldn't be seen as exploitative - in The Body - but as a
> moment of intimacy. Intimacy in grief.
I'm not clear on the backstory, but I've been lead to believe that the
WB had issues with physical contact between them. That would explain
why no other couple in the Buffyverse have had on-screen affection
"held back" to this extent.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
The language was flippant, but I don't see how the semantics about the
source of Slayer strnegth or why Buffy is special even among Slayers do
aything to "undermine" the Slayer mythology in a way that's relevant to
this discussion.
-AOQ
BTR1701
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
Well, considering they *did* get to the part of the spell where Buffy
corporealized, even if the demons hadn't intervened, it still would have
taken them an hour or so to dig her out of the ground, all the while
Buffy would have been down there freaking out.
As for it being icky, they should just cowboy up and deal. What's more
important? Theur friend's well-being or dealing with a little
squeamishness?
BTR1701
But if Buffy had been your best friend, would you have just hoped your
guess was right or would you have dug up the coffin first in case your
guess was wrong?
BTR1701
peachy ashie passion <exquisi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Of course not. It's the Principle of Relative Animal Cuteness:
Dolphins in tuna nets: bad
Tuna in tuna nets: good
vague disclaimer
"Clairel" <reld...@usa.net> wrote:
> vague disclaimer wrote:
> > In article <1154204927.0...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> > "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> > > Season Six, Episode 1: "Bargaining"
> > > (or "Don't make Dead Slayer angry")
> > > Writers: Marti Noxon (Part I) & David Fury (Part II)
> > > Director: David Grossman
> >
> > Interesting stuff. I would tend to rate it as a strongish 'good' on your
> > scale: the effect of the pacing on me was to give a flavour of the sheer
> > grind of trying to fill the Slayer's shoes and how the facade they were
> > putting up was exactly that: a facade. They knew that Buffy wasn't just
> > in LA.
> >
> > Also, you made one huge assumption in your review which, if I remember,
> > I'll specify as a less spoilery time.
>
> --Can you ROT13 it? I'd like to know what you're referring to.
>
> Clairel
Nf jryy nf gur bar Qba naq pelfgny abgrq, ur nyfb nffhzrq gung gur fubj
jnagrq fubg bs Tvyrf (engure guna Urnq jnagvat gb fcraq zber gvzr jvgu
uvf snzvyl). Bar jbhyq yvxryl yrnq gb uvf creznarag erzbiny, gur bgure
fubhyq znxr "V jnag gb grfg gung gurbel" n qbhoyr cyhf tbbq fhecevfr sbe
NbD. Ntnvafg gung, ybbxvat ng vg guebhtu gur "jnagrq uvz tbar" yraf
zvtug funcr uvf pevgvdhr va n jnl gung xabjvat Urnq fvzcyl jnagrq gb qb
srjre rcvfbqrf zvtug abg.
--
Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
Don Sample
peachy ashie passion <exquisi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Of course not. Why do you think that the anti-seal hunt people spent so
much money showing pictures of cute little baby seals, and not the adult
seals, which are a lot less cute?
Don Sample
BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Buffy corporealized a minute or two after the demons interrupted the
spell. Without the interruption there was still lots of time for Willow
to lift her up out of the grave, before she woke up.