AOQ Review 5-14: "Crush"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Five, Episode 14: "Crush"
(or "For our next experiment, we'll play latter-day Mozart at Spike
and see if it makes him jump out a window")
Writer: David Fury
Director: Dan Attias
The Bornze's new logo is cool. The band of the week sounds pretty
good. A vampire who steals loose change is a funny concept. Creating
funny scenes poses no challenge for Payday Man. A uniformed guy
who's clearly about to die getting killed isn't as interesting.
Well, I wanted more interactions between Dawn and Spike, didn't I?
Glad to see it happen. Their scenes again come off very well. It's
easy to see why a good-looking charismatic guy that everyone's
constantly warning her away from would appeal to Dawn (and the lack of
patronizing, as she says), but we also get a sense of why he enjoys her
company; she knows how to talk to him. Look at how she twists her
unintended insult about feeling safe with him into a compliment, being
sure to bring up her sister to get his attention and keep him listening
to her. That's just the mechanism to move the story into Buffy/Spike
territory, of course, which is nicely transitioned. If that's a
verb. Also, we bring up some of the issues that've come up in the
newsgroup lately: "Angel's different. He has a soul." "Spike
has a chip. Same diff." Naturally, the rest of the show goes
towards addressing some of that, after a particularly well timed
lead-up to an ad break.
There's not really a B-story here, unless you count the train murders
that end up being connected to the A-story. But Buffy first hearing
about Spike's infatuation opens the way for us to work the rest of
the cast into things by watching how they react. Xander's usually a
little more observant about such things, depending on who's writing
that week, but his reaction is still pretty good. "Oh, I hope not.
It's funnier if it's true." And his main concern about the issue is
the threat to his status as Dawn's older-guy crush. I think it tells
us something about how the Scoobies are relating to Peroxide Boy that
they don't see the danger that such an obsession could present, only
the comedic value and the ew-yuck factor. As for Buffy herself, she
plays things close enough to the vest to let the people who want them
to get together get their hopes up...
The episode plays into the disarming too. Spike the storyteller
indulging Dawn's interest in the dark and the twisted, but less proud
of his history when Buffy's around. Spike charming his way into the
conversations of the Summers household. "Oh, don't get us all
laughing again, Joyce." Heh. Spike stammering a little, the nervous
would-be-poet trying to work up the courage to ask out the cheerleader.
I don't really have a whole lot to say about the "date" and
subsequent rejection, but I like a few little touches like Buffy's
overreaction after Spike reaches across her, her quick deduction that
the two vampires in the warehouse aren't the droids they're looking
for, and the way she has a one-liner for every attempt to get serious.
And Spike singing, that's fun.
Harmony is used well from a writing standpoint, providing quick moments
of comic relief to keep things from getting too heavy, and just being
around to let Spike bounce comments off her. Their bit of role-playing
is a nice bit of humor, creepiness, and patheticness rolled up into a
few seconds. Also liked her attempt at a kiss-off at the very end.
My biggest complaint about "Crush," and it's not really a big
deal, is that there's an element of predictability to Drusilla's
role. Most viewers will either know for a fact or guess that Spike is
going to stay on the show. And there's a remote chance that Drusilla
might die here, but she'll most likely stalk away into the night to
get back to her storyline on _Angel_ (soon, hopefully!). The end
result of their reunion is thus something of a foregone conclusion, as
if the writers are bringing up the Spike/Dru thing again for the main
purpose of closing the door on it.
But what's not so foregone is how quickly Spike will jump back into
the fray once the right buttons are pushed. He certainly seems happy
to be "back," and letting Drusilla provide human food for him
(notice the evolution from S2 Spike, who viewed it as a matter of pride
to only eat his own kills). But then in his usual short-attention-span
way, he decides that he can't give up on Buffy for long. Also,
I've been enjoying Drusilla a lot lately. Although she sometimes
seems a little more plain-talking and less crazy in this episode than
maybe she should be, she has her share of good lines too.
"Although... didn't care for Angelus setting us on fire." "Yes,
please. I like that game much more." And good gestures.
This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
- "And you should never hurt the feelings of a brutal killer. You
know, that's, uh, that's actually some pretty good advice."
- The whole _Hunchback Of Notre Dame_ conversation (although since
it's thematically related to the rest of the show, maybe I
shouldn't call it "really stupid")
- "It's creepy." Spoken while plunking down in a chair occupied
by a police chalk-silhouette.
- "Do you have any idea how hard it's been to break down the walls he
put up after you left? I mean, *serious* trust issues"
What began as a fluffy romantic comedy thus progresses to a
delightfully twisted setup in which Spike has Buffy chained up while
he's professing his love. And that's really the beauty of
"Crush." It lets Spike have real feelings and emotions, while not
shying away from the realities of the situation. This isn't just
Buffy not returning Spike's affections, this is Spike running up
against the limitation of his ability to deal in human thought. In
some cases, he simply doesn't get it, and can't. His vampire
facsimile of loving self-sacrifice lets him stage the elaborate ritual
in which he symbolically redeems himself by killing Drusilla... and
he's genuinely baffled by seeing it met with total indifference.
"So you see, it means something." "Not to me. Kill her, why do
I care?" As it should be. Sure enough, a second later, he's ready
to turn around and kill Buffy if she won't play along. And let's
not forget that this is a creature who showed no regret or second
guessing at all over having Dru snap necks for him. It turns out that
Buffy was right all along: the chip doesn't represent true change.
She, and we, end up more totally convinced than before that Spike is
incapable of real love. And the episode makes a strong case for the
fact that, "shippers" be damned, a Buffy/Spike relationship cannot
happen under the present circumstances. Period. Let's hope the
show sticks to it.
Harm saving the day because she's envious at being left out of
Spike's hatred is great. So are Gellar and Marsters's delivery on
"the only chance you had with me was when I was unconscious" and
"what the bleeding hell is wrong with you bloody women?!"
respectively. I also like the idea of Buffy fighting off Dru for so
long without her hands, even if it leads to a moment of unintentional
comedy, with that stupid headscissors-takedown.
Notice the way I phrased the statement about the B/S pairing, "under
the present circumstances." Just an idea, but... If Spike is really
that into Buffy to the point where he's denying his vampire identity
(we've seen hints of that), you know what he could try, as a final
act of total desperation? Have Willow make him a soul. There are lots
of issues there, not the least of which being the loophole in the one
curse our heroes know, but I think it's worth pondering.
So...
One-sentence summary: Makes the best of a good situation.
AOQ rating: Excellent
[Season Five so far:
1) "Buffy Vs. Dracula" - Good
2) "Real Me" - Decent
3) "The Replacement" - Good
4) "Out Of My Mind" - Weak
5) "No Place Like Home" - Decent
6) "Family" - Excellent
7) "Fool For Love" - Excellent
8) "Shadow" - Good
9) "Listening To Fear" - Decent
10) "Into The Woods" - Good
11) "Triangle" - Decent
12) "Checkpoint" - Decent
13) "Blood Ties" - Good
14) "Crush" - Excellent]
lili...@gmail.com
Actually, I have to disagree with one thing. Remember that scene where
Dru snaps his victim's neck for him. You can clearly see him hesitate.
It's also clear that that's the point he decides he can't go with Dru.
He still doesn't feel for the victim, it's nobody he knows after all.
But he can't go live the kind of life where someone else has to do his
kills for him.
I also like that, sure he threatens Buffy with Dru, but when it really
comes down to it and Buffy's at risk, he goes to free Buffy.
Lore
Don Sample
lili...@gmail.com wrote:
He hesitates because he isn't sure whether or not it's going to hurt to
take a bite. He *thinks* he can bite a dead person, but he's never
really tested it before.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Elisi
> He hesitates because he isn't sure whether or not it's going to hurt to
> take a bite. He *thinks* he can bite a dead person, but he's never
> really tested it before.
And you know that how?
It's a scene showing how conflicted Spike is. I have yet to see anyone
agree on exactly what went though Spike's head - everyone imposes their
own interpretation. I remember reading an interview with David Fury
(that of course now I can't find), where he talked about the scene and
said that Spike was conflicted because of his feelings for Buffy (she
would not approve, obviously), but in the end bloodlust won out.
Whatever the case is, it's a wonderful scene and Marsters is superb. I
did find a little analysis of the acting on Slayage.tv (where many
spoilers live):
'This dissolving immorality is strikingly present, in the performance
alone, in the scene in "Crush" (5014), when a chipped Spike is
offered a newly killed girl to drink by Drusilla. This acting of
Spike's indecision and hesitancy is quintessential Marsters. There is
no dialogue. Attention is drawn away from the lifeless body in
Spike's arms as the camera focuses on Spike's face and we are held
in suspense, waiting for Spike's decision to drink or not. There is
no rush to drink as Marsters has Spike look back at Drusilla, trying to
decide if he can trust her, trust himself, trust any decision at all?
We do not know; it is all possible. Spike's chest rises and falls as
the actor breathes more rapidly, there is tremor in his face, his gaze
intent. Then, as if mustering all his willpower, Spike decides as the
actor pauses and then lunges, and Spike brutally drinks from the dead
body. Bert States, commenting on the phenomenology of acting in
theatrical production, points out the sense in which there is a
"narrator hiding in the actor" in the way in which, as he performs, he
can shift between self-expressive and representational modes, as well
as take on a collaborative mode with the audience. The utility of
looking at performance this way, as States says, is that it allows for
audience selectivity:
In other words, it is not a simple matter of following the "intention"
of the speaker but of abandoning one's senses to the shifting appeals
of the speech (and the actor's speech, of course, should be
understood to include gesture, presence, and all the aspects of his
performance of the role). (24)
This view also allows us more awareness of the way an actor is both
playing and representing the character. While on a television screen
and cinema, unlike the theatre, the audience's sense of both the
actor and the character are framed by editing, lighting, music etc, it
is still true that the actor himself can draw audience attention to the
illusive aspects of the art and create a space in which he himself can
comment on the action independent of other aspects of his speech or the
plot. In this dialogue free action in the Bronze, the subtlety of
Marsters' portrayal makes us aware of the process of the acting
itself and of the effect it has on representation, of the techniques
that create the performance and extend what is written, of the elements
in Marsters' performance that keep the viewer suspended, momentarily,
between will he or won't he drink from the girl?'
I love that scene. :) Don't get me wrong btw - I don't think Spike is a
fluffy puppy with bad teeth and that Buffy should have jumped into his
arms. She acted exactly as she should, and Spike - for all his big
words - really doesn't have a clue. I believe he has feelings for her,
and I think the more those feelings develop the more he changes. But
there really is only so far he can go. Vampires are evil, and there's
really not much they can do about that. But that doesn't mean that evil
is *all* they are, each is a complex bundle of emotions and impulses.
Just look at Spike's face when Buffy shuts the door in his face: He is
hurt and upset, not throat-rippgly angry. (Still, the dis-invite spell
was necessary!)
Actually since I'm discussing the whole vampire thing anyway, I thought
I'd quote this bit from Barb C's fanfic, since it has one of the best
descriptions of the whole 'how much is a vampire influenced by the
person they were?' I've ever read:
'The line between William and Spike had always been dangerously
fuzzy--why
else had he devoted so much effort to ruthlessly erasing every trace of
his human self? He'd told Willow that he wasn't William, and he wasn't.
He knew he'd lost important parts of who William had been, and William
had been an ineffectual, simpering little ponce anyway, but like it or
not, William's life was in the first person for him, not the third. The
person who'd clawed his way up out of the earth three days after his
midnight encounter with Drusilla in a filthy London stable, ravenous
for blood, had no memory of existence unshaped by William's thoughts,
William's emotions, William's memories. By the same token he'd never
felt quite right referring, some vampires did, to 'his' demon as if
it were some sort of family pet. The demon was his own temper, his own
cruelty, his own bloodlust--not his, but _him_.
Of course, it was also his humor and a large part of his passion. And
William, with his desire to look only upon the beauty of the world, had
contributed a good portion of his indifference to human suffering.
Dividing himself up into good and bad halves like some victim of a
bloody transporter accident and trying to squash one of them just
wouldn't work.
(And from a different chapter:)
That was the real gift the demon had given him: not immortality, nor
strength, nor supernatural keenness of sense, but rage. Pure, killing
rage that swept fear aside and lent sinew to every other passion he
owned. It wasn't true that he had never feared anything again after
that night--he'd feared plenty. But the fear didn't matter any longer.
He was transformed. The demon fit into the hollow place within him
where the guilt and horror and anguish should have been--good riddance
to them--as if he'd been born to it. So seamless was the meld that it
was easy to make himself believe that the demon was all he was, and
look back with scathing contempt, when he cared to look back at all,
upon the mediocre life and times of William the Bloody Awful Poet. He
needed the demon to be Spike.'
And now, I *really* need to go! :) My main point, I think, is that
Spike is a vastly complicated character and getting more complex all
the time. Dismissing him as 'an evil, evil thing' does a great
disservice to him, and also to the enjoyment of watching.
Finally a couple of snippets from the shooting script:
~
THE CAMERA TRUCKS IN with SPIKE and DRU ads they enter [The Bronze],
arm-in-arm, sweeping in as if they own the guy that owns this place.
Some of the customers turn to watch as they walk by, so commanding is
their presence.
~
SPIKE, who looks down at the Girls' corpse again, looking conflicted,
pained.
Stephen Tempest
>> Actually, I have to disagree with one thing. Remember that scene where
>> Dru snaps his victim's neck for him. You can clearly see him hesitate.
>> It's also clear that that's the point he decides he can't go with Dru.
>
>He hesitates because he isn't sure whether or not it's going to hurt to
>take a bite. He *thinks* he can bite a dead person, but he's never
>really tested it before.
My reading of that scene was closer to Lore's than yours. That wasn't
a "will this hurt?" hesitation, it was more of a "is this really what
I want to be doing?" pause.
Or, even more likely, a "Buffy won't like me if I do this" pause...
And authorial intent appears to agree with us. :)
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@'
'Crush' script, white, 14 December 2000 by David Fury:
DRU (in VAMPFACE) marches up to the Girl. Spike holds back, letting
Dru walk ahead of him. He watches, unsure...
Dru walks right up to the Girls. Grabs the Girl's head and twists -
CRACK! - snapping her neck. Before the Boy can respond, Dru clamps a
hand over his mouth. Too freaked to move, he's trapped, wide-eyed,
terrified.
With her free hand, Dru tosses the dead Girl to Spike (who catches and
holds her in his arms).
ON SPIKE, he looks down at the lifeless Girl, her broken neck thrown
back, white throat poised invitingly before him. He looks to Dru,
sees:
SPIKE'S POV - DRU, clutching the Boy in "the dark embrace," descending
upon him and, sinking her fangs in, starts to feed. As she sucks on
the Boy her eyes drift up and gaze back at:
SPIKE, who looks down at the Girls' corpse again, looking conflicted,
pained. He MORPHS into VAMPFACE.
DRUSILLA lifts her head up, her lips stained with the Boy's blood, and
draws a deep sensual breath in anticipation as
Spike gives in - he penetrates the Girl's throat and drinks.
Dru exhales, closing her eyes in ecstasy.
CLOSE OF SPIKE, feeding more and more ravenously.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
So: 'unsure', 'conflicted', 'pained', 'gives in'...
(And Fury's grammar isn't too good, clearly <g>)
Stephen
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> newsgroup lately: "Angel's different. He has a soul." "Spike
> has a chip. Same diff." Naturally, the rest of the show goes
thats the clockwork orange question
both here and in clockwork orange is the question is
does a person become moral if you simply force them to act morally
or is there something more beyond that
> - "It's creepy." Spoken while plunking down in a chair occupied
> by a police chalk-silhouette.
note that buffy not only sits on the marks
but she arranges her body to match the outlines
and thus is in the same position as drusillas victim
> "So you see, it means something." "Not to me. Kill her, why do
> I care?" As it should be. Sure enough, a second later, he's ready
> to turn around and kill Buffy if she won't play along. And let's
> not forget that this is a creature who showed no regret or second
you do have to feel for spike total frustration
hes got three women
and he cant understand a single one of them
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
vague disclaimer
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Makes the best of a good situation.
>
> AOQ rating: Excellent
Hmmm. I don't remember eating that.
Well, no. Actually pretty damned good but would 5 million per cent
better if they could have found a way that didn't involve the
over-acting crappy-accented one. Sadly, even I have to concede that they
couldn't.
--
Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
George W Harris
<tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
:Notice the way I phrased the statement about the B/S pairing, "under
:the present circumstances." Just an idea, but... If Spike is really
:that into Buffy to the point where he's denying his vampire identity
:(we've seen hints of that), you know what he could try, as a final
:act of total desperation? Have Willow make him a soul. There are lots
:of issues there, not the least of which being the loophole in the one
:curse our heroes know, but I think it's worth pondering.
The same idea occurred to me at the time.
--
"It is always a simple matter to drag people along whether it is a
democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist
dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the
bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them
they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of
patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every
country."
-Hermann Goering
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.
BTR1701
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> her quick deduction that the two vampires in the warehouse
> aren't the droids they're looking for
And the way she just lets them run away. And lets Drusilla run away
later on. First the whole hands-oof approach to Spike, now this. Does
she even remember anymore that she's actually supposed to kill these
things? That's it's kind of her raison d'etre?
Elisi
A couple of points that I didn't have time for previously:
1) I love the fact that Joyce is worried that Buffy maybe 'sent out
signals - and Buffy's response!
2) Back when you reviewed 'Shadow' you and Ken had this exchange:
KenM47 wrote:
>> She's a thing, a simulacrum of a human. She's an innocent victim in the
> >same way an orb of Thesulah or a pencil is innocent. She's a tool.
AOQ replied:
>Based on what I've seen so far, I'd have to pretty much disagree
>entirely. An orb of Thesulah doesn't feel or love, or, dare I say it,
>have a soul. Dawn's a tool, but, at least based on what we know at
>this point in the series, it seems like she's also a person.
>What tends to matter in the Buffyverse is who someone is, not where
>they came from.
Which is of course almost exactly what Spike says here:
DAWN: I'm not a child. I'm not even human. Not originally.
SPIKE: Yeah, well, originally I was. I got over it. Doesn't seem to me
it matters very much how you start out.
It amused me greatly at the time. :)
3) About the whole 'staking Dru to prove his love' thing... it seems on
the surface such an odd thing, but I think it all goes back to Angel.
Angel is mentioned over and over again in this episode, and it's
obvious that Spike thinks he might have a chance because of Buffy's
past history. Notice how he even changes his outfit at the start of the
episode. Now way back when Buffy/Angel was just beginning, Angel
'proved his love' by staking Darla - and I'm sure Spike must have heard
of this. So when his romantic overtures prove fruitless and Dru turns
up, he decides to copy his grandsire in a different way. Of course the
outcome is very different....
At least that's my theory. :)
jil...@hotmail.com
lili...@gmail.com wrote:
> Actually, I have to disagree with one thing. Remember that scene where
> Dru snaps his victim's neck for him. You can clearly see him hesitate.
> It's also clear that that's the point he decides he can't go with Dru.
Er... honey, that you said above is what we call "complete and total
fanwank actually without backing evidence."
jil...@hotmail.com
Spike is getting absolute feedback on his behaviour as "not
acceptable." From Buffy, from Joyce and even from Dawn it's a
resounding "NO, BAD DOG!" He'll have to learn from this.
So, Buffy started to accept his presence as seen in the preceeding
episode, and settle down with having him in her group, and now he's
done something to get himself totally expelled. ME and their repeating
themes....
After all, Buffy's been punished for behavior that her group doesn't
like from Season 2 on. Two was shutting them out because of the trauma
of being killed by the Master. Season 3 she was punished... well, for
leaving after she had to send Angel to hell. Then again for not
reporting on his return. Four there was the attack on her triggered by
Spike, of course that sort of went to all of them. Five we have the
loss of Riley and Xander getting on her for not making Riley feel
needed. *shakes head*
Vanya6724
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Notice the way I phrased the statement about the B/S pairing, "under
> the present circumstances." Just an idea, but... If Spike is really
> that into Buffy to the point where he's denying his vampire identity
> (we've seen hints of that), you know what he could try, as a final
> act of total desperation? Have Willow make him a soul. There are lots
> of issues there, not the least of which being the loophole in the one
> curse our heroes know, but I think it's worth pondering.
It's not clear that Spike knows about Willow giving Angel his soul
back. It's really not clear how much Spike knows at all about the
events at the end of "Becoming" because he and Drusilla took off before
Buffy ran the sword through Angel and in "Lover's Walk" in Season 3 he
acts like he expects Angel to be around. He doesn't seem very curious
in that episode about why Angelus has reverted back to Angel, remarking
only "And when did you become all soul-having again? I thought you
outgrew that."
Lord Usher
news:1151650060.3...@d56g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:
> One-sentence summary: Makes the best of a good situation.
>
> AOQ rating: Excellent
It's damn good, as both an episode and a statement of principle...
But, dammit, I can't get over the fact that Buffy lets *four* soulless,
unchipped blood-suckers wander off into the night so that she can yell at
Spike some more.
Couldn't she at least, like, run after Drusilla and get knocked down or
something? *Something* to suggest that she didn't just stand there and let
the murderess she was tracking escape for no reason.
--
Lord Usher
"I'm here to kill you, not to judge you."
EGK
Yup. That was definitely the one thing that brought the episode down.
Remembering that Dru killed Kendra makes Buffy's inaction all the more odd
and harder to reconcile.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"There would be a lot more civility in this world if people
didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you"
(Calvin and Hobbes)
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
wrote:
> On 30 Jun 2006 09:46:02 -0500, Lord Usher <lord_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
> >news:1151650060.3...@d56g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:
> >
> >> One-sentence summary: Makes the best of a good situation.
> >>
> >> AOQ rating: Excellent
> >
> >It's damn good, as both an episode and a statement of principle...
> >
> >But, dammit, I can't get over the fact that Buffy lets *four* soulless,
> >unchipped blood-suckers wander off into the night so that she can yell at
> >Spike some more.
> >
> >Couldn't she at least, like, run after Drusilla and get knocked down or
> >something? *Something* to suggest that she didn't just stand there and let
> >the murderess she was tracking escape for no reason.
>
> Yup. That was definitely the one thing that brought the episode down.
> Remembering that Dru killed Kendra makes Buffy's inaction all the more odd
> and harder to reconcile.
buffy
you recently got knocked out with a electric cattle prod
you just got beaten with a 2x6
a powerful vampire has already moved closer to the exit
you gto another cheesed off vampire with a crossbow somewhere behind you
why didnt you finish off drusilla?
Don Sample
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Don Sample wrote:
>
> > He hesitates because he isn't sure whether or not it's going to hurt to
> > take a bite. He *thinks* he can bite a dead person, but he's never
> > really tested it before.
>
> And you know that how?
Same way anyone who says that he hesitates because he's starting to
develop a conscience knows. I interpret what I see on the screen.
Elisi
Don Sample wrote:
> In article <1151658869.9...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Don Sample wrote:
> >
> > > He hesitates because he isn't sure whether or not it's going to hurt to
> > > take a bite. He *thinks* he can bite a dead person, but he's never
> > > really tested it before.
> >
> > And you know that how?
>
> Same way anyone who says that he hesitates because he's starting to
> develop a conscience knows. I interpret what I see on the screen.
I don't think he's developing a conscience - my guess would be that he
hesitates because he knows what Buffy would say. So it's a battle
between trying to follow Buffy's code of morals (without understanding
why), and having his first taste of real blood for more than a year.
Possibly mixed up with the indignation of having Dru kill for him.
I adore Spike, but I'm not a redemptionista (if you're familiar with
that term?).
William George Ferguson
Buffy has always let random vamps and demons that are willing to run away,
run away, going all the way back to the premiere (the vamps that she lets
run out of the Bronze after dusting Luke). I'm okay with that. Buffy
can't kill every vampire on earth, one by one, and, frankly, the ones that
are willing to run away immediately aren't as much of a threat, not just
to her but to humanity in general, as the ones that want to attack.
There was no clear evidence that Buffy was in an immediate position to
stop either Dru or Harm from running. She could have gone chasing after
them, but, see above.
--
HERBERT
1996 - 1997
Beloved Mascot
Delightful Meal
He fed the Pack
A little
William George Ferguson
wrote:
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>
>
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Five, Episode 14: "Crush"
>(or "For our next experiment, we'll play latter-day Mozart at Spike
>and see if it makes him jump out a window")
>Writer: David Fury
>Director: Dan Attias
>It turns out that
>Buffy was right all along: the chip doesn't represent true change.
>She, and we, end up more totally convinced than before that Spike is
>incapable of real love. And the episode makes a strong case for the
>fact that, "shippers" be damned, a Buffy/Spike relationship cannot
>happen under the present circumstances. Period. Let's hope the
>show sticks to it.
Even though Buffy reaches the conclusion, we shouldn't necessarily reach
the same conclusion (about vampires in general, if not about Spike).
Drusilla eloquently presents the opposing view when Buffy says that
vampires can't love. "Oh, we can, you know. We can love quite well. If
not wisely."
There are certain touchpoints, as you have discovered, which will trigger
endless debate that mainly devolves to people saying the same thing, over
and over and over. A peroxide blond vampire is certainly one of them, as
is a redhead doing eyeflirts with a stammering witch, after being involved
with a werewolf. This is another one, which will rapidly devolve into
circular reasoning ("Vampire's can't love." "What about Spike and Dru?"
"That's not love." "Why isn't it?" "Because vampires can't love.", there,
I've taken care of the next hundred posts, so they don't have to be made)
>Notice the way I phrased the statement about the B/S pairing, "under
>the present circumstances." Just an idea, but... If Spike is really
>that into Buffy to the point where he's denying his vampire identity
>(we've seen hints of that), you know what he could try, as a final
>act of total desperation? Have Willow make him a soul. There are lots
>of issues there, not the least of which being the loophole in the one
>curse our heroes know, but I think it's worth pondering.
V guvax lbh fcbggrq gur cbffvovyvgl rneyvre guna nalbar abg anzrq Gvz
Oehravat (naq ur jnf nqibpngvat vg sbe nyy inzcf) be lbh'ir orra fcbvyrq,
ng yrnfg fbzrjung).
One Bit Shy
news:1151650060.3...@d56g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Five, Episode 14: "Crush"
> The Bornze's new logo is cool. The band of the week sounds pretty
> good.
And an even better sounding band when Spike and Dru come back later. It
hasn't been a big music at the Bronze year, but this episode makes up for a
lot.
> A vampire who steals loose change is a funny concept. Creating
> funny scenes poses no challenge for Payday Man.
I just have to quote this sequence.
Xander: The point is, I work hard for that money.
Spike: And you're saying I didn't?
Xander: You stole it.
Spike: And you're making it into very hard work!
> Well, I wanted more interactions between Dawn and Spike, didn't I?
> Glad to see it happen. Their scenes again come off very well. It's
> easy to see why a good-looking charismatic guy that everyone's
> constantly warning her away from would appeal to Dawn (and the lack of
> patronizing, as she says),
He's got cool hair. Heh. No, you're absolutely right. It's a natural fit.
Spike's exactly the one to say something like, "Doesn't seem to me it
matters very much how you start out," and make it sound real and true to a
Dawn that so much wants to hear exactly that. They're both outsiders in
their own way, and both sensitive to that status.
It also makes sense that a kid like Dawn, who has neither the patience nor
the experience to put up with loaded expectations of societal norms and
such, will just cut through all that to equate something like soul and chip
and recognize Spike's feelings when Buffy won't.
> but we also get a sense of why he enjoys her
> company; she knows how to talk to him. Look at how she twists her
> unintended insult about feeling safe with him into a compliment,
"Take that back!" being another moment that cracks me up. Much of this
episode is extremely funny even though it's not exactly a comedy.
> being
> sure to bring up her sister to get his attention and keep him listening
> to her. That's just the mechanism to move the story into Buffy/Spike
> territory, of course, which is nicely transitioned. If that's a
> verb. Also, we bring up some of the issues that've come up in the
> newsgroup lately: "Angel's different. He has a soul." "Spike
> has a chip. Same diff."
I like how the flustered Buffy isn't sure which is the bigger point - that
Spike's a monster - or that Dawn's only 14. The chip really is a confusing
element, isn't it?
> Naturally, the rest of the show goes
> towards addressing some of that, after a particularly well timed
> lead-up to an ad break.
That would be the literal, "Huh?" moment. Heh. SMG gets to toss out a lot
of neat facial expressions this episode.
> There's not really a B-story here, unless you count the train murders
> that end up being connected to the A-story. But Buffy first hearing
> about Spike's infatuation opens the way for us to work the rest of
> the cast into things by watching how they react. Xander's usually a
> little more observant about such things, depending on who's writing
> that week, but his reaction is still pretty good. "Oh, I hope not.
> It's funnier if it's true." And his main concern about the issue is
> the threat to his status as Dawn's older-guy crush. I think it tells
> us something about how the Scoobies are relating to Peroxide Boy that
> they don't see the danger that such an obsession could present, only
> the comedic value and the ew-yuck factor. As for Buffy herself, she
> plays things close enough to the vest to let the people who want them
> to get together get their hopes up...
Well Willow and Joyce (both of whom actually have a history of kinda getting
along with Spike) seem to take it seriously. They're the ones that push
Buffy into going back to Spike so that she can shut it down hard.
But it's worth remembering for all of them - including Buffy, though not as
much - that they haven't been in a position to see most of the stuff we
have. Their dealings with Spike for the past year have been a series of
wildly changing nutty escapades. Sometimes dangerous. Sometimes helpful.
Most often ridiculous. Always with a sense of can you believe what that
crazy Spike did this time? Xander's most recent encounter with Spike was
arguing with him about how stealing his change was hard work. I think it's
natural for Xander to fit this story into his existing understanding of
Spike.
Besides, as perceptive as Xander can be about people sometimes, identifying
with vampire love of humans isn't a strong point for him.
> The episode plays into the disarming too. Spike the storyteller
> indulging Dawn's interest in the dark and the twisted, but less proud
> of his history when Buffy's around.
Damn. I could write a book about this episode. But not now... Yeah,
that's a moment alright.
> Spike charming his way into the
> conversations of the Summers household. "Oh, don't get us all
> laughing again, Joyce." Heh. Spike stammering a little, the nervous
> would-be-poet trying to work up the courage to ask out the cheerleader.
> I don't really have a whole lot to say about the "date" and
> subsequent rejection, but I like a few little touches like Buffy's
> overreaction after Spike reaches across her, her quick deduction that
> the two vampires in the warehouse aren't the droids they're looking
> for, and the way she has a one-liner for every attempt to get serious.
> And Spike singing, that's fun.
I cannot adequately express how funny I find the date. One of the great
BtVS moments. I'll just mention how much I like the suspicious looks Buffy
gives Spike - and the notion of those nested vamps sitting back to go
through their CD collection while whipping up a batch of Jiffy Pop. How
about that for subverting the usual idea of the irredeemingly evil vampire?
And it's so sweet of Spike trying to show Buffy a good time - what with the
flask and holding the door for her.
> Harmony is used well from a writing standpoint, providing quick moments
> of comic relief to keep things from getting too heavy, and just being
> around to let Spike bounce comments off her. Their bit of role-playing
> is a nice bit of humor, creepiness, and patheticness rolled up into a
> few seconds. Also liked her attempt at a kiss-off at the very end.
"You've got some nerve showing up here like this. After all this time. After
breaking my sweet boo-boo's heart." And then Drusilla mouthing boo-boo.
Oh, how humiliating for Spike!
> My biggest complaint about "Crush," and it's not really a big
> deal, is that there's an element of predictability to Drusilla's
> role. Most viewers will either know for a fact or guess that Spike is
> going to stay on the show. And there's a remote chance that Drusilla
> might die here, but she'll most likely stalk away into the night to
> get back to her storyline on _Angel_ (soon, hopefully!). The end
> result of their reunion is thus something of a foregone conclusion, as
> if the writers are bringing up the Spike/Dru thing again for the main
> purpose of closing the door on it.
Such are the perils of crossovers. What are you going to do? The L.A.
references always annoyed me a little - before I had watched any Angel -
just for the intrusiveness of it. But it's pretty mild in this episode.
> But what's not so foregone is how quickly Spike will jump back into
> the fray once the right buttons are pushed. He certainly seems happy
> to be "back," and letting Drusilla provide human food for him
> (notice the evolution from S2 Spike, who viewed it as a matter of pride
> to only eat his own kills). But then in his usual short-attention-span
> way, he decides that he can't give up on Buffy for long. Also,
> I've been enjoying Drusilla a lot lately. Although she sometimes
> seems a little more plain-talking and less crazy in this episode than
> maybe she should be, she has her share of good lines too.
> "Although... didn't care for Angelus setting us on fire." "Yes,
> please. I like that game much more." And good gestures.
Ok. A couple things abut that.
First, the Bronze scene with Dru and Spike is, I think, the most thrilling
and dramatic scene in the episode. Their slo-mo walk along the balcony to
the creepy music was chilling - and did much to bring back the old evil feel
of that pair back in S2. And there's something about looking down on the
girl's bare neck here that really gets across the idea of Spike's vampire
senses being awakened with the smell of the blood below. That smooth skin
positively screaming for Spike to sink his teeth into it.
But it's nothing compared to the moment Dru looks up from her own kill,
blood dripping from her mouth, and starts rocking the boy with a slow dry
humping motion. That's evil, and one of the finest depictions the series
has shown. Scenes like this remind that as dark as themes get sometimes,
how relatively rarely the show really takes you to that kind of depth.
As for Spike being drawn into this, yes, Drusilla clearly awakens his
repressed vampire desires. The caged beast that must break free that Adam
thrilled him with. What not so long ago obsessively drove him to try to get
the chip removed. And he does succumb to the call of that girl's neck and
digs in with pure vampire relish. There can be no doubt that his vampire
self remains strong within him.
Yet, there are contrary elements too. He hesitated a long time over that
neck. And the expression on his face when Dru tossed him her body, and
looking down at it, and then at Dru is not the confident Spike is back look
he wore just moments earlier when he entered the Bronze. He has to work to
get himself into vamp face and down to the blood. It doesn't come readily
on its own.
And, then, when it's over, what does he do? Even though you (and Buffy) can
still see the fresh blood on his mouth, he promptly ties Dru up and returns
to wooing Buffy - utterly rejecting what Dru offers. You call it short
attention span, but I think it's much deeper. Dru's seduction simply
failed. The taste of blood - as far as we know his first taste of fresh
blood since he got the chip - doesn't do the trick. Now maybe Spike is just
wise enough to know that the chip is still too big a yoke to get rid of that
easily. But I find it hard to believe that alone could explain switching
gears that easily, that quickly. To me, the implication is clear. While
the blood lust is still there, it no longer rules him, no longer excites him
the way it once did. Behavior modification on the scale of the chip can be
a powerful and enduring force.
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> - "And you should never hurt the feelings of a brutal killer. You
> know, that's, uh, that's actually some pretty good advice."
But Xander gives no indication that he'll abid by it.
> - The whole _Hunchback Of Notre Dame_ conversation (although since
> it's thematically related to the rest of the show, maybe I
> shouldn't call it "really stupid")
Worth excerpting I think.
Willow: I just don't see why he couldn't end up with Esmerelda. They could
have the wedding right there. Beneath the very bell-tower where he labored
thanklessly for all those years.
Tara: No, see, it can't, it can't end like that, 'cause all of Quasimodo's
actions were selfishly motivated. He had no moral compass, no understanding
of right. Everything he did, he did out of love for a woman who would never
be able to love him back. Also, you can tell it's not gonna have a happy
ending when the main guy's all bumpy.
A pretty good summary of the episode's sentiments. But there's an added
little twist to that scene. Willow immediately follows that by asking
Buffy's opinion. And Buffy says she doesn't have an opinion. That the test
hasn't come yet.
> What began as a fluffy romantic comedy thus progresses to a
> delightfully twisted setup in which Spike has Buffy chained up while
> he's professing his love. And that's really the beauty of
> "Crush." It lets Spike have real feelings and emotions, while not
> shying away from the realities of the situation. This isn't just
> Buffy not returning Spike's affections, this is Spike running up
> against the limitation of his ability to deal in human thought. In
> some cases, he simply doesn't get it, and can't. His vampire
> facsimile of loving self-sacrifice lets him stage the elaborate ritual
> in which he symbolically redeems himself by killing Drusilla... and
> he's genuinely baffled by seeing it met with total indifference.
> "So you see, it means something." "Not to me. Kill her, why do
> I care?" As it should be. Sure enough, a second later, he's ready
> to turn around and kill Buffy if she won't play along. And let's
> not forget that this is a creature who showed no regret or second
> guessing at all over having Dru snap necks for him. It turns out that
> Buffy was right all along: the chip doesn't represent true change.
> She, and we, end up more totally convinced than before that Spike is
> incapable of real love. And the episode makes a strong case for the
> fact that, "shippers" be damned, a Buffy/Spike relationship cannot
> happen under the present circumstances. Period. Let's hope the
> show sticks to it.
Aside from the ambiguity as to the depth of Spike's vampire lust that I
referenced above, I think that's a good assessment. And I think/hope you'll
find it interesting how the series takes the story through ths season.
Spike's speech about what Dru means to him is excellent. Even beautiful in
its weird vampire way.
I'm also very fond of this to Buffy:
"And you wouldn't be able to touch me, because this, with you, is wrong. I
know it. I'm not a complete idiot. You think I like having you in here?
Destroying everything that was me, until all that's left is you, in a dead
shell. You say you hate it, but you won't leave."
I believe this is the first time Spike himself speaks of Buffy transforming
him, and, especially, transforming him into a version of her. That's a more
complicated thought than love and obsession. And a hell of a lot more
complicated than just wanting in her pants.
> Harm
The *actual* girlfriend (God, this show cracks me up)
> saving the day because she's envious at being left out of
> Spike's hatred is great.
She gets in some mean whacks too. Hardly the Xander slapfest of last year.
Maybe role playing Buffy has inspired her.
> Notice the way I phrased the statement about the B/S pairing, "under
> the present circumstances." Just an idea, but... If Spike is really
> that into Buffy to the point where he's denying his vampire identity
> (we've seen hints of that), you know what he could try, as a final
> act of total desperation? Have Willow make him a soul. There are lots
> of issues there, not the least of which being the loophole in the one
> curse our heroes know, but I think it's worth pondering.
Well, hell, there's a concept! Have we seen you leap that far in fanfic
imaginings before? I'm definitely entertained.
I'm not so sure of your mechanism. The way I took Angel's spell is that the
magic was never understood - maybe not even the meaning of the words.
Willow just literally repeated the translated spell. I have my doubts that
she knows how to direct it at anybody but Angel. If she could, why wouldn't
they have tried it with other vampires?
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Makes the best of a good situation.
>
> AOQ rating: Excellent
A big favorite of mine, an easy Excellent, but still only 3rd or 4th best of
the season. I'm pleased that you enjoyed it.
OBS
Elisi
I knew that you'd be brilliant, and I think you've pointed out almost
everything. And very cleverly too! I don't know if I could write a
book, but I did start an essay once - got 3 1/2 pages into it and never
finished... but glancing at it now, I re-discovered something I'd
completely forgotten. These are the lyrics to the song that plays at
the beginning of the episode:
I'm amused by the overwhelming choices
I guess the hardest part is knowing when to stop
I'm confused and I think I'm hearing voices
Things are happening so fast
Do I save the best for last?
The music is always chosen with great care. :)
Now you *did* neglect to mention the most important part though:
Buffy's line "The only chance you had with me was when I was
unconscious!" is clearly a shut-out to when Elizabeth turns down Mr
Darcy's marriage proposal:
"You could not have made me the offer of your hand in any way that
would have tempted me to accept it."
Which of course is a clear indication of how S6 plays out when Dawn
elopes with Spike's cousin, rather unimaginatively named 'Wickam' (the
one married to the regurgitating Frolaps demon), and the Scoobies then
travel from town to town looking for them. I know the format changed
greatly, but personally I found it a very informative look at American
geography. ;)
One Bit Shy
news:1151703384.2...@d56g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> Now you *did* neglect to mention the most important part though:
>
> Buffy's line "The only chance you had with me was when I was
> unconscious!" is clearly a shut-out to when Elizabeth turns down Mr
> Darcy's marriage proposal:
>
> "You could not have made me the offer of your hand in any way that
> would have tempted me to accept it."
Not fair. You expose my woeful lack of knowledge of literature. I had to
go look that up just to find what you were talking about. Having now read
that scene, I see that it is certainly highly charged, though I know little
of what is behind it. Do you suppose that Buffy harbors romantic fantasies
of herself playing the parts of such famous female characters?
> Which of course is a clear indication of how S6 plays out when Dawn
> elopes with Spike's cousin, rather unimaginatively named 'Wickam' (the
> one married to the regurgitating Frolaps demon), and the Scoobies then
> travel from town to town looking for them. I know the format changed
> greatly, but personally I found it a very informative look at American
> geography. ;)
You see, I never understood that part before - least of all Wickam. I
really do need to expand my horizons.
OBS
MBangel10 (Melissa)
It is somewhat backed up by Spike's actions in the next scene. So, I
don't think that's too much of a fanwank at all.
MBangel10 (Melissa)
> In article <1151658869.9...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Don Sample wrote:
>>
>>> He hesitates because he isn't sure whether or not it's going to hurt to
>>> take a bite. He *thinks* he can bite a dead person, but he's never
>>> really tested it before.
>> And you know that how?
>
> Same way anyone who says that he hesitates because he's starting to
> develop a conscience knows. I interpret what I see on the screen.
>
weight.
Apteryx
> Now you *did* neglect to mention the most important part though:
>
> Buffy's line "The only chance you had with me was when I was
> unconscious!" is clearly a shut-out to when Elizabeth turns down Mr
> Darcy's marriage proposal:
>
> "You could not have made me the offer of your hand in any way that
> would have tempted me to accept it."
>
> Which of course is a clear indication of how S6 plays out when Dawn
> elopes with Spike's cousin, rather unimaginatively named 'Wickam' (the
> one married to the regurgitating Frolaps demon), and the Scoobies then
> travel from town to town looking for them. I know the format changed
> greatly, but personally I found it a very informative look at American
> geography. ;)
I liked the late S7 episode where Spike tells Buffy his feelings are
unchanged since "Crush", but one word from her will silence him on the
subject forever, and Buffy admits that her feelings have been like totally
changey since then.
Oddly enough, "Buffy" is apparently one of over 50 variations of the name
"Elizabeth".
--
Apteryx
Kermit
I am very much in favour of Buffy being punished...
Oh, wait. Wrong newsgroup for that conversation. :D
BTR1701
William George Ferguson <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:43:57 -0400, BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <1151650060.3...@d56g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
> > "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> her quick deduction that the two vampires in the warehouse
> >> aren't the droids they're looking for
> >
> >And the way she just lets them run away. And lets Drusilla run away
> >later on. First the whole hands-oof approach to Spike, now this. Does
> >she even remember anymore that she's actually supposed to kill these
> >things? That's it's kind of her raison d'etre?
>
> Buffy has always let random vamps and demons that are willing to run away,
> run away, going all the way back to the premiere (the vamps that she lets
> run out of the Bronze after dusting Luke). I'm okay with that. Buffy
> can't kill every vampire on earth, one by one, and, frankly, the ones that
> are willing to run away immediately aren't as much of a threat, not just
> to her but to humanity in general, as the ones that want to attack.
I'm sure that'll be a big comfort to the families of the people those
vampires go on to kill, the ones that she didn't even try and stop
because she was more interested in snappy banter with Spike. It's one
thing for some to escape occasionally because she can't go after them
all. It's quite another for her to not even bother trying.
If Buffy is going to accept this Slayer thing as a duty, then she ought
to live up to it.
> There was no clear evidence that Buffy was in an immediate position to
> stop either Dru or Harm from running. She could have gone chasing after
> them, but, see above.
So because Drusilla ran away, she isn't much of a threat? Remember the
train full of slaughtered people at the beginning of the episode?
Drusilla isn't some random vampire. She's an insane master vampire with
telepathic and precognitive power. She's one of the most dangerous
vampires there is.
But it was much more important for Buffy to yell at Spike some more...
peachy ashie passion
er, what's the right one and how can I get there?
peachy ashie passion
>
> So because Drusilla ran away, she isn't much of a threat? Remember the
> train full of slaughtered people at the beginning of the episode?
> Drusilla isn't some random vampire. She's an insane master vampire with
> telepathic and precognitive power. She's one of the most dangerous
> vampires there is.
>
> But it was much more important for Buffy to yell at Spike some more...
Love makes you do the wacky.
One Bit Shy
news:btr1702-CAB428...@news.giganews.com...
I really don't think her state of mind was at its clearest right then.
OBS
Apteryx
news:1151650060.3...@d56g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
Still desperately trying to find an outlet for his evil. Maybe he could get
a job as a TV network executive? But what's with Buffy and Spike earlier?
Just because I rely on you to keep my mother and sister safe doesn't give
you the right to talk to me?
And some early Ben jokes:
TARA: I'm down with that. Let's just call "she who will not be named"
another name. Let's just call her-
BUFFY: Ben!
& Ben's own "You'd be surprised the extent of my wardrobe."
> Well, I wanted more interactions between Dawn and Spike, didn't I?
> Glad to see it happen. Their scenes again come off very well. It's
> easy to see why a good-looking charismatic guy that everyone's
> constantly warning her away from would appeal to Dawn (and the lack of
> patronizing, as she says), but we also get a sense of why he enjoys her
> company; she knows how to talk to him. Look at how she twists her
> unintended insult about feeling safe with him into a compliment, being
> sure to bring up her sister to get his attention and keep him listening
> to her.
She needed to do something. Poor Spike. The final indignity, a teenage girl
feeling safe with him.
>
> What began as a fluffy romantic comedy thus progresses to a
> delightfully twisted setup in which Spike has Buffy chained up while
> he's professing his love. And that's really the beauty of
> "Crush." It lets Spike have real feelings and emotions, while not
> shying away from the realities of the situation. This isn't just
> Buffy not returning Spike's affections, this is Spike running up
> against the limitation of his ability to deal in human thought. In
> some cases, he simply doesn't get it, and can't. His vampire
> facsimile of loving self-sacrifice lets him stage the elaborate ritual
> in which he symbolically redeems himself by killing Drusilla... and
> he's genuinely baffled by seeing it met with total indifference.
> "So you see, it means something." "Not to me. Kill her, why do
> I care?" As it should be. Sure enough, a second later, he's ready
> to turn around and kill Buffy if she won't play along. And let's
> not forget that this is a creature who showed no regret or second
> guessing at all over having Dru snap necks for him.
No? I mean he went along with it, sure, but I think "no regret or second
guessing" is overstating it a bit when he had that moment of delay before
biting, and shortly aftwerwards tied up Dru to offer to kill her for Buffy.
> It turns out that
> Buffy was right all along: the chip doesn't represent true change.
> She, and we, end up more totally convinced than before that Spike is
> incapable of real love.
Who are you calling "we". Buffy makes a good case sure, but so does Dru. An
open question at this stage, whether vampires are incapable of love or
merely unlikely to do so.
>
> Notice the way I phrased the statement about the B/S pairing, "under
> the present circumstances." Just an idea, but... If Spike is really
> that into Buffy to the point where he's denying his vampire identity
> (we've seen hints of that), you know what he could try, as a final
> act of total desperation? Have Willow make him a soul. There are lots
> of issues there, not the least of which being the loophole in the one
> curse our heroes know, but I think it's worth pondering.
Well that loophole would rather defeat the purpose of the exercise.
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Makes the best of a good situation.
>
> AOQ rating: Excellent
I wouldn't go that far. It tells us a lot about Spike and his limits, and it
provides a great deal of welcome humour in a season that's a little short of
that. To me its Good. Its my 41st favourite BtVS episode, 4th best in S5.
--
Apteryx
BTR1701
<O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
Given how many vampires she just lets go these days in order to argue
with Spike, I'd say it's par for the course.
cry...@panix.com
> "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Which of course is a clear indication of how S6 plays out when
>> Dawn elopes with Spike's cousin, rather unimaginatively named
>> 'Wickam' (the one married to the regurgitating Frolaps demon),
>> and the Scoobies then travel from town to town looking for
>> them. I know the format changed greatly, but personally I found
>> it a very informative look at American geography. ;)
> I liked the late S7 episode where Spike tells Buffy his feelings
> are unchanged since "Crush", but one word from her will silence
> him on the subject forever, and Buffy admits that her feelings
> have been like totally changey since then.
I don't know. I always thought it was weird when the characters
started referring to episodes by name. But I guess that's a
necessary consequence of the whole Meta Arc.
--
-Crystal
William George Ferguson
wrote:
>"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1151650060.3...@d56g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
>> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>> Season Five, Episode 14: "Crush"
>
>> The Bornze's new logo is cool. The band of the week sounds pretty
>> good.
>
>And an even better sounding band when Spike and Dru come back later. It
>hasn't been a big music at the Bronze year, but this episode makes up for a
>lot.
For the record, the first Bronze band (while the Scoobies are there) is
Summercamp, and the second Bronze band (while S&D are there) is Devics.
>
she can shut it down hard.
>
>And it's so sweet of Spike trying to show Buffy a good time - what with the
>flask and holding the door for her.
Want a drink?
Eww!
It's not blood, just bourbon
[beat]Eewwww!
>> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
>> - "And you should never hurt the feelings of a brutal killer. You
>> know, that's, uh, that's actually some pretty good advice."
Joyce: Honey, did you ... somehow, unintentionally, lead him on in any
way? Uh, send him signals?
Buffy: Well, I ... I do beat him up a lot. For Spike that's like third
base.
>> - The whole _Hunchback Of Notre Dame_ conversation (although since
>> it's thematically related to the rest of the show, maybe I
>> shouldn't call it "really stupid")
>
>Worth excerpting I think.
>
>Willow: I just don't see why he couldn't end up with Esmerelda. They could
>have the wedding right there. Beneath the very bell-tower where he labored
>thanklessly for all those years.
>Tara: No, see, it can't, it can't end like that, 'cause all of Quasimodo's
>actions were selfishly motivated. He had no moral compass, no understanding
>of right. Everything he did, he did out of love for a woman who would never
>be able to love him back. Also, you can tell it's not gonna have a happy
>ending when the main guy's all bumpy.
>
>A pretty good summary of the episode's sentiments. But there's an added
>little twist to that scene. Willow immediately follows that by asking
>Buffy's opinion. And Buffy says she doesn't have an opinion. That the test
>hasn't come yet.
You know, when it first aired, there was a lot of discussion here about
how wrong Tara got Quasimodo (or not), to make it fit the theme of the
episode. To the best of our knowledge, Quasimodo was never meant to be
soulless.
(Harmony) Watcher
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote in message
news:12ab43o...@news.supernews.com...
>
> <snip>
>
> Spike's speech about what Dru means to him is excellent. Even beautiful
in
> its weird vampire way.
>
> I'm also very fond of this to Buffy:
>
> "And you wouldn't be able to touch me, because this, with you, is wrong. I
> know it. I'm not a complete idiot. You think I like having you in here?
> Destroying everything that was me, until all that's left is you, in a dead
> shell. You say you hate it, but you won't leave."
>
> I believe this is the first time Spike himself speaks of Buffy
transforming
> him, and, especially, transforming him into a version of her. That's a
more
> complicated thought than love and obsession. And a hell of a lot more
> complicated than just wanting in her pants.
>
>
the other side once in a while), perhaps the monks put a love spell on Spike
as part of their larger spell even though it might be simpler to chalk most
of it up to years of brainwashing by Passions?
OK, that's a full 10 seconds. Nah. It's the inner poet called William.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
Elisi
> I liked the late S7 episode where Spike tells Buffy his feelings are
> unchanged since "Crush", but one word from her will silence him on the
> subject forever, and Buffy admits that her feelings have been like totally
> changey since then.
Ah yes. But of course we might never have had that one, if not for the
time travel one earlier on when Buffy went back to 1880 and met
William's old housekeeper. Actually that whole arch was brilliant, what
with the highway woman storyline and all. Oh - and I loved 'Attack of
the Playboy Bunnies' as well. I know it's much disputed, but it really
was the perfect story for Anya.
>
> Oddly enough, "Buffy" is apparently one of over 50 variations of the name
> "Elizabeth".
Have you never read fanfic *at all*? It crops up _all the time_!
Usually after Spike gives Buffy a big bunch of red roses and before he
tells her she tastes like ambrosia... oh no wait, that actually
happened! *g*
Ahem. I should probably leave now...
3D Master
> What began as a fluffy romantic comedy thus progresses to a
> delightfully twisted setup in which Spike has Buffy chained up while
> he's professing his love. And that's really the beauty of
> "Crush." It lets Spike have real feelings and emotions, while not
> shying away from the realities of the situation. This isn't just
> Buffy not returning Spike's affections, this is Spike running up
> against the limitation of his ability to deal in human thought. In
> some cases, he simply doesn't get it, and can't. His vampire
> facsimile of loving self-sacrifice lets him stage the elaborate ritual
> in which he symbolically redeems himself by killing Drusilla... and
> he's genuinely baffled by seeing it met with total indifference.
> "So you see, it means something." "Not to me. Kill her, why do
> I care?" As it should be. Sure enough, a second later, he's ready
> to turn around and kill Buffy if she won't play along. And let's
> not forget that this is a creature who showed no regret or second
> Buffy was right all along: the chip doesn't represent true change.
> She, and we, end up more totally convinced than before that Spike is
> fact that, "shippers" be damned, a Buffy/Spike relationship cannot
> happen under the present circumstances. Period. Let's hope the
> show sticks to it.
After this scene I always go: "DUST! DUST! FOR f's sake dust the bastard
already!? Chip or no chip. He's tried to kill Buffy and friends, he's
tried to get the ship out to kill them, he betrayed them to Adam, he
stalked Buffy, stole her underwear and stuff, now chained her up with
his crazy ex killing machine, tried to have that one kill Buffy if she
didn't confess her love to him! DUST! Every other vamp gets killed
before they even stand on the dug up ground of their graves, why the
flying F is this bastard who continues to try and kill everyone still
around! DUST! DUST! DUST! AAARGGHH!"
It really happened earlier, but this is final moment; this where you
say, BtVS jumped the effing shark.
3D Master
--
~~~~~
"I've got something to say; it's better to burn out than to fade away!"
- The Kurgan, Highlander
"Give me some sugar, baby!"
- Ashley J. 'Ash' Williams, Army of Darkness
~~~~~
Author of several stories, which can be found here:
http://members.chello.nl/~jg.temolder1/
vague disclaimer
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> If Spike is really
> that into Buffy to the point where he's denying his vampire identity
> (we've seen hints of that), you know what he could try, as a final
> act of total desperation? Have Willow make him a soul. There are lots
> of issues there, not the least of which being the loophole in the one
> curse our heroes know, but I think it's worth pondering.
Hmmm. Same spell, same curse? I can think of little duller than to
re-tread a story that was left as a spent husk 2 years before.
--
Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
3D Master
>> It turns out that
>> Buffy was right all along: the chip doesn't represent true change.
>> She, and we, end up more totally convinced than before that Spike is
>> incapable of real love.
>
> Who are you calling "we". Buffy makes a good case sure, but so does Dru. An
> open question at this stage, whether vampires are incapable of love or
> merely unlikely to do so.
We'll get the answer for that one, in Angel S3: like with a huge sledge
hammer slammed into us.
Apteryx
> Apteryx wrote:
>
>> I liked the late S7 episode where Spike tells Buffy his feelings are
>> unchanged since "Crush", but one word from her will silence him on the
>> subject forever, and Buffy admits that her feelings have been like
>> totally
>> changey since then.
>
> Ah yes. But of course we might never have had that one, if not for the
> time travel one earlier on when Buffy went back to 1880 and met
> William's old housekeeper. Actually that whole arch was brilliant, what
> with the highway woman storyline and all. Oh - and I loved 'Attack of
> the Playboy Bunnies' as well. I know it's much disputed, but it really
> was the perfect story for Anya.
>
>>
>> Oddly enough, "Buffy" is apparently one of over 50 variations of the name
>> "Elizabeth".
>
> Have you never read fanfic *at all*? It crops up _all the time_!
Actually, no. Have I missed anything :)
--
Apteryx
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
i think spike would gleefully seek out a moment of perfect happiness
if he knows the curse
hes that kind of demon
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
Elisi
> > Have you never read fanfic *at all*? It crops up _all the time_!
>
> Actually, no. Have I missed anything :)
Oh definitely! Not of course the sappy mulch that I mocked before (and
that there is *far* too much of - B/A stuff that makes you wonder if
they ever heard of the curse, B/S stories where the spell in 'Something
Blue' was never lifted etc), but there is also fic out there that
rivals (and sometimes surpasses) what we saw on screen.
Vs lbh jnag gb qvc n gbr va gur jngref, V pna erpbzzraq Frnfba Abve:
uggc://jjj.qevmmyr.pbz/~ryvnqr/qrzba_abve.ugzy
(Tbrf NH fbzrjurer va F6, nebhaq 'Tbar' be n ovg yngre vs V erzrzore
pbeerpgyl.)
George W Harris
<l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
:In article <1151650060.3...@d56g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
Yeah, but the question isn't why the writers
didn't do it, but what was Spike's reason for not doing it.
:--
:Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
--
"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar." -Wash, 'Serenity'
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
One Bit Shy
news:3Bopg.110054$iF6.107161@pd7tw2no...
That's bloody awful poet to you.
I have a theory. That the monks invented stethoscopes (complete with
invented memories of them) so that Dawn would have something to occupy her
mind as she whiles away the time at the hospital filled with all the people
she put there from the key's radiation.
The various monks did it theories all have the same problems. Relying on
the monks makes everything in the universe malleable at whim. You can use
it to change what time the sun rises if that somehow serves Dawn. That's
undoubtedly the peril of that kind of device to begin with. The only way to
deal with that successfully that I know of is to maintain focus on their
narrowly defined deed and not creep into every imagined fallout by magical
extension. Which appears to be what the show is trying to do.
The tension in the story is all centered on the basic notion that the monks
made the key into Buffy's sister so that it would be protected by her - The
Slayer. So, yeah, people wonder if she's really human or magical device.
Is she really family? Is it found family like Tara, or is it literal
Summers blood like Buffy says? As for the various extensions - silence.
The story doesn't go there. As in there not being any there there. It's
all about what Dawn is, not everybody and everything else. (This device's
influence that is. The broader story obviously is about others too -
including how Dawn affects them. But not by direct manipulation from the
monks.) If you don't approach it this way, then the series loses all touch
with its internal reality. You might as well turn it into a never-ending
rendition of Restless.
Brainwashing by Passions, however, is a new and startling notion to me.
Perhaps you have solved the great mystery that is Spike.
OBS
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> Perhaps you have solved the great mystery that is Spike.
why do you think people keep these kind of shows
they broadcast a complex pulse on a 30hz carrier
in the blue-yellow band
lili...@gmail.com
Apteryx schreef:
Hmm, I'd say this is the third best of the season, and it's at least in
my top ten of the entire series.
(then again, gur Obql doesn't even make my top fifty of all eps. Gbb
sbeprq, gbb zhpu beqrevat hf gb srry n pregnva jnl.)
Lore
Stephen Tempest
Yeah, but the question isn't why the writers
>didn't do it, but what was Spike's reason for not doing it.
>:--
Because he was afraid getting a soul like that would turn him into a
great big brooding ponce who uses too much nancy-boy hair gel?
Stephen
vague disclaimer
George W Harris <gha...@mundsprung.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 01 Jul 2006 12:44:17 +0100, vague disclaimer
> <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
>
> :In article <1151650060.3...@d56g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
> : "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> :
> :> If Spike is really
> :> that into Buffy to the point where he's denying his vampire identity
> :> (we've seen hints of that), you know what he could try, as a final
> :> act of total desperation? Have Willow make him a soul. There are lots
> :> of issues there, not the least of which being the loophole in the one
> :> curse our heroes know, but I think it's worth pondering.
> :
> :Hmmm. Same spell, same curse? I can think of little duller than to
> :re-tread a story that was left as a spent husk 2 years before.
>
> Yeah, but the question isn't why the writers
> didn't do it, but what was Spike's reason for not doing it.
Trouble is that's a question that can be cast either way. Why would he?
There's no evidence that any vampire has had the inclination to
*voluntarily* seek a soul.
Besides, I think AoQ is wrong - I see no evidence that Spike is denying
his vampire identity. And there's rather more to being human (or not
vampire) than getting all stalkery over a girl and threatening to kill
another vampire.
lili...@gmail.com
What I don't get is why, when Angel does it, it's called 'watching over
her', yet when Spike does it, it's suddenly 'stalking'.
This while Angel, with a soul, started stalking Buffy from when she was
15 years old.
Lore
Daniel Damouth
news:e85qg4$lik$1...@nntp.aioe.org:
I recommend Don Sample's fic. He's done Buffy crossovers with
Stargate SG-1, _Lord of the Rings_, and Harry Potter.
http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/
-Dan Damouth
Don Sample
lili...@gmail.com wrote:
1) Buffy *does* call Angel's behaviour "stalking." For example, in
"When She was Bad":
"Y'know, being stalked isn't really a big turn-on for girls."
2) While Angel tended to lurk a bit, he didn't break into her house and
steal her clothing, underwear, and photos; he didn't build a Buffy
shrine with his stolen items; he didn't get another blonde to dress up
in Buffy's clothing to play out his fantasies with her...
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
BTR1701
<3d.m...@chello.nl> wrote:
I don't know about the whole show but the whole Spike thing certainly
did. Not only does she let Spike live, she let's EVERY vampire live:
Spike, Drusilla, Harmony, the two no-names in the warehouse... is she
even a Vampire Slayer anymore?
EGK
"Jump the Shark" long ago jumped the shark but I hear you. I remember one
person who got me in to the show originally during season 2. He stopped
watching it after the high school years as life intruded. When he tried
going back later on he actually thought the show had been turned in to the
parody, Buffy the Vampire Layer from the Friends episode.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"There would be a lot more civility in this world if people
didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you"
(Calvin and Hobbes)
One Bit Shy
news:l64o-1rj5-9DB69...@mercury.nildram.net...
If he is not in some fashion denying his vampire identity, what is he doing?
Is this a terminology issue? Do we need to call it something else?
*Something* is going on besides getting all stalkery.
BUFFY: Please! Spike, you're a vampire.
SPIKE: Angel was a vampire.
BUFFY: Angel was good!
SPIKE: And I can be too. I've changed, Buffy.
BUFFY: What, that chip in your head? That's not change. Tha-that's just ...
holding you back. You're like a serial killer in prison!
SPIKE: Women marry 'em all the time!
BUFFY: Uhh!
SPIKE: (realizing that's not what he meant) But I'm not ... like that.
Something's happening to me. I can't stop thinking about you.
BUFFY: Uhh. (turns away)
SPIKE: And if that means turning my back on the whole evil thing-
Spike saying he can be good? Contemplating turning his back on the whole
evil thing? This is the same guy that's spent most of the last year in a
kind of perpetual foot stomping tantrum insisting that he's bad. Isn't this
rather literally denying his vampire identity? Now he's got a 14 year old
kid telling him how safe she feels with him. And, you know, after he gets
past the shock of that statement, Dawn *is* safe with him. Spike consoles
her. Tells her stories. And he seems to enjoy it. His whole relationship
with Dawn and Joyce is a form of denying his vampire identity.
And his own descriptions of what is going on isn't limited to adoration for
Buffy. "Something's happening to me." "Destroying everything that was me."
He's talking about something changing in him - not being the vampire he once
was.
Dru's play on Spike isn't about the chance to win back her love - though,
their old attraction certainly is strong subtext. It's about reawakening
his vampire self - in other words, she sees Spike's denial herself and seeks
to reverse it.
"Electricity lies, Spike. It tells you you're not a bad dog, but you are."
She lays a line on him of pure vampire thrill and lust. Her special version
of the line that Adam gave Spike last season.
"You're a killer. Born to slash ... and bash ... and... oh, bleed like
beautiful poetry. No little tinker-toy could ever stop you from flowing."
And for a moment, Spike does remember the feeling and grasps at it.
SPIKE: It's been fun while it lasted, Harm, but I think it'd be best now if
you hit the road.
HARMONY: Why? Because she's back?
SPIKE: No. Because I am.
DRUSILLA: And there you are, my darling, deadly boy.
But he fails. With that girl in his arms and her neck beckoning, Spike
doesn't just hesitate, he has to work himself up to dive in. And then in
plenty quick order dumps the whole notion of "being back" and returns to
wooing Buffy - specifically by attempting to demonstrate to her how serious
he is in turning his back on his past. What could say that louder than
staking his true vampire love, Drusilla?
And remember, he made that reversal of direction with fresh blood on his
mouth. The hold his old vampire self once had on him isn't doing it
anymore. How can that be seen as anything other than denying his vampire
identity.
Don't misunderstand. I'm *not* saying that he's turned good, or developed a
conscience, or isn't, in fact, a vampire. I'm not even saying that the old
self doesn't still draw him. (Drusilla's initial seduction demonstrated
that it does.)
But something really has changed none the less. All that time with the chip
keeping him from his natural pursuits has made him adapt to a different kind
of life so thoroughly that he really has become comfortable with watching
Passions and keeping an eye on the Little Bit. So throroughly that even
fresh blood doesn't rev him up the way it used to. So much so that he
himself has become conscious of a change within himself, and is led to
seriously contemplate turning his back on his old vampire ways. Denying his
vampire identity.
Oh, he's mighty confused in all this. Twisted all about. No matter how
serious he may be about adopting human like qualities, the reality of being
a vampire always blocks him, stops him from even understanding what that
really means. But that doesn't leave him a regular vampire. Rather he's
stuck for now, alone in a weird place unable to embrace either a human or a
vampire self.
OBS
KenM47
He wants into her pants. He's obsessed. Does this really need deep
analysis?
He's a vampire who can't chow down, who can't do the old violence,
ultra or ordinary, he's a sentient creature trying to get through
another 24 hour period without being dusted so he can work on getting
through the next 24, and filling that void with something. Buffy as
trophy lay fills the bill nicely.
There's no there there.
Ken (Brooklyn)
KenM47
vague disclaimer
> What I don't get is why, when Angel does it, it's called 'watching over
> her', yet when Spike does it, it's suddenly 'stalking'.
>
> This while Angel, with a soul, started stalking Buffy from when she was
> 15 years old.
Who mentioned Angel?
BTR1701
<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 01 Jul 2006 19:10:48 -0500, BTR1701 <BTR...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <724bb$44a65ebb$3ec2ee50$30...@news.chello.nl>, 3D Master
> ><3d.m...@chello.nl> wrote:
> >
>
> >> It really happened earlier, but this is final moment; this where you
> >> say, BtVS jumped the effing shark.
> >
> >I don't know about the whole show but the whole Spike thing certainly
> >did. Not only does she let Spike live, she let's EVERY vampire live:
> >Spike, Drusilla, Harmony, the two no-names in the warehouse... is she
> >even a Vampire Slayer anymore?
>
> "Jump the Shark" long ago jumped the shark but I hear you. I remember one
> person who got me in to the show originally during season 2. He stopped
> watching it after the high school years as life intruded. When he tried
> going back later on he actually thought the show had been turned in to the
> parody, Buffy the Vampire Layer from the Friends episode.
Lrc. Thaa abgvprq n fvzvyne ceboyrz nzbat Natry'f perj va gur ynggre
frnfbaf. V erzrzore uvz nfxvat Natry, "Qb jr rira xvyy gurfr guvatf
nalzber? Whfg purpxvat..."
vague disclaimer
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
Obsessing over the girl.
> Is this a terminology issue? Do we need to call it something else?
> *Something* is going on besides getting all stalkery.
>
> BUFFY: Please! Spike, you're a vampire.
> SPIKE: Angel was a vampire.
> BUFFY: Angel was good!
> SPIKE: And I can be too. I've changed, Buffy.
So he says. The evidence for this is.....?
> BUFFY: What, that chip in your head? That's not change. Tha-that's just ...
> holding you back. You're like a serial killer in prison!
> SPIKE: Women marry 'em all the time!
> BUFFY: Uhh!
> SPIKE: (realizing that's not what he meant) But I'm not ... like that.
> Something's happening to me. I can't stop thinking about you.
Obsessing....
> BUFFY: Uhh. (turns away)
> SPIKE: And if that means turning my back on the whole evil thing-
>
> Spike saying he can be good?
William the crappy poet claimed he was good. Didn't stop him be a
self-absorbed prat who thought the others were vulgarians.
> Contemplating turning his back on the whole
> evil thing?
Yes...I think a tad more than a desperate negotiating ploy will be
needed before that carries any weight.
There's not really anything materially ahead of Percy giving Willow the
apple. Just a bit more melodramatic.
> This is the same guy that's spent most of the last year in a
> kind of perpetual foot stomping tantrum insisting that he's bad. Isn't this
> rather literally denying his vampire identity? Now he's got a 14 year old
> kid telling him how safe she feels with him. And, you know, after he gets
> past the shock of that statement, Dawn *is* safe with him. Spike consoles
> her. Tells her stories. And he seems to enjoy it. His whole relationship
> with Dawn and Joyce is a form of denying his vampire identity.
>
> And his own descriptions of what is going on isn't limited to adoration for
> Buffy. "Something's happening to me." "Destroying everything that was me."
> He's talking about something changing in him - not being the vampire he once
> was.
>
> Dru's play on Spike isn't about the chance to win back her love - though,
> their old attraction certainly is strong subtext. It's about reawakening
> his vampire self - in other words, she sees Spike's denial herself and seeks
> to reverse it.
>
> "Electricity lies, Spike. It tells you you're not a bad dog, but you are."
The chip making him a neuter. Can't play with the other puppies any more.
>
> She lays a line on him of pure vampire thrill and lust. Her special version
> of the line that Adam gave Spike last season.
>
> "You're a killer. Born to slash ... and bash ... and... oh, bleed like
> beautiful poetry. No little tinker-toy could ever stop you from flowing."
>
> And for a moment, Spike does remember the feeling and grasps at it.
>
> SPIKE: It's been fun while it lasted, Harm, but I think it'd be best now if
> you hit the road.
> HARMONY: Why? Because she's back?
> SPIKE: No. Because I am.
> DRUSILLA: And there you are, my darling, deadly boy.
Except of course he isn't - she did the killing.
> But he fails. With that girl in his arms and her neck beckoning, Spike
> doesn't just hesitate, he has to work himself up to dive in. And then in
> plenty quick order dumps the whole notion of "being back" and returns to
> wooing Buffy - specifically by attempting to demonstrate to her how serious
> he is in turning his back on his past. What could say that louder than
> staking his true vampire love, Drusilla?
In much the same way that John Hinkley Jr tried to woo Jodie Foster.
> And remember, he made that reversal of direction with fresh blood on his
> mouth. The hold his old vampire self once had on him isn't doing it
> anymore. How can that be seen as anything other than denying his vampire
> identity.
>
> Don't misunderstand. I'm *not* saying that he's turned good, or developed a
> conscience, or isn't, in fact, a vampire. I'm not even saying that the old
> self doesn't still draw him. (Drusilla's initial seduction demonstrated
> that it does.)
>
> But something really has changed none the less.
Yeah. He's a neuter and acting out like a good'un. Displacement isn't
denial.
> All that time with the chip
> keeping him from his natural pursuits has made him adapt to a different kind
> of life so thoroughly that he really has become comfortable with watching
> Passions and keeping an eye on the Little Bit. So throroughly that even
> fresh blood doesn't rev him up the way it used to. So much so that he
> himself has become conscious of a change within himself, and is led to
> seriously contemplate turning his back on his old vampire ways. Denying his
> vampire identity.
Or just trying to impress the girl.
> Oh, he's mighty confused in all this. Twisted all about. No matter how
> serious he may be about adopting human like qualities, the reality of being
> a vampire always blocks him, stops him from even understanding what that
> really means. But that doesn't leave him a regular vampire. Rather he's
> stuck for now, alone in a weird place unable to embrace either a human or a
> vampire self.
>
> OBS
One Bit Shy
news:jt5ea2tatai436jbs...@4ax.com...
> He wants into her pants. He's obsessed. Does this really need deep
> analysis?
This episode went through considerable effort to suggest more.
> He's a vampire who can't chow down, who can't do the old violence,
> ultra or ordinary, he's a sentient creature trying to get through
> another 24 hour period without being dusted so he can work on getting
> through the next 24, and filling that void with something. Buffy as
> trophy lay fills the bill nicely.
Offering to dust Drusilla. Sure, just passing the time. He was telling the
truth when he said that means something. It might not mean anything to
Buffy, but it sure as hell does to him.
> There's no there there.
Bu, pbzr ba, Xra. Lbh *xabj* gung'f abg gehr. Rira jvguva gur pbasvarf bs
guvf frnfba Fcvxr'f tbvat gb nqncg gb n zber urebvp guna frkhny pbaprea sbe
Ohssl - naq ur'yy or dhvgr frevbhf nobhg vg.
OBS
George W Harris
<l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
:In article <3g8da2leuvbdnt37d...@4ax.com>,
: George W Harris <gha...@mundsprung.com> wrote:
:
:> On Sat, 01 Jul 2006 12:44:17 +0100, vague disclaimer
:> <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
:>
:> :In article <1151650060.3...@d56g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
:> : "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
:> :
:> :> If Spike is really
:> :> that into Buffy to the point where he's denying his vampire identity
:> :> (we've seen hints of that), you know what he could try, as a final
:> :> act of total desperation? Have Willow make him a soul. There are lots
:> :> of issues there, not the least of which being the loophole in the one
:> :> curse our heroes know, but I think it's worth pondering.
:> :
:> :Hmmm. Same spell, same curse? I can think of little duller than to
:> :re-tread a story that was left as a spent husk 2 years before.
:>
:> Yeah, but the question isn't why the writers
:> didn't do it, but what was Spike's reason for not doing it.
:
:Trouble is that's a question that can be cast either way. Why would he?
:There's no evidence that any vampire has had the inclination to
:*voluntarily* seek a soul.
Yeah, but there's no indication that a vampire's
ever fallen in love with a Slayer, either. He's got
(somewhat) the motivation. She tells him he's a soulless
thing, he has just enough understanding of human
emotion to think that if he gets the soul then her
objection will go away (it's like a guy who, when a girl
tells him she won't go out with him because of something,
tries to change that thing).
--
Real men don't need macho posturing to bolster their egos.
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.
KenM47
>"KenM47" <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
>news:jt5ea2tatai436jbs...@4ax.com...
>
>> He wants into her pants. He's obsessed. Does this really need deep
>> analysis?
>
>This episode went through considerable effort to suggest more.
All explainable by the simpler explanation. Occam's Razor and all
that.
>
>
>> He's a vampire who can't chow down, who can't do the old violence,
>> ultra or ordinary, he's a sentient creature trying to get through
>> another 24 hour period without being dusted so he can work on getting
>> through the next 24, and filling that void with something. Buffy as
>> trophy lay fills the bill nicely.
>
>Offering to dust Drusilla. Sure, just passing the time. He was telling the
>truth when he said that means something. It might not mean anything to
>Buffy, but it sure as hell does to him.
Impress the girl into bed with deceit and treachery? Yeah, there's a
deep meaning there. Not! And Dru walks away. Harmony too. And even
Spike who just fed on the blood of a human killed by another with whom
he is complicit.
>
>
>> There's no there there.
>
>Bu, pbzr ba, Xra. Lbh *xabj* gung'f abg gehr. Rira jvguva gur pbasvarf bs
>guvf frnfba Fcvxr'f tbvat gb nqncg gb n zber urebvp guna frkhny pbaprea sbe
>Ohssl - naq ur'yy or dhvgr frevbhf nobhg vg.
>
>OBS
>
Frr nobir. Nyy fvzvyneyl rkcynvanoyr, VZB. Gur bgure rkcynangvba vf,
VZB, whfg cynva perngvir fybccvarff naq snvyvat gb pbafvqre gur
enzvsvpngvbaf bs gur jevgvat nf zvfyrnqvat sbyxf vagb guvaxvat Fcvxr
vf fbzrguvat zber guna n puvccrq qrzba fbhy inzcver.
Ken (Brooklyn)
(Harmony) Watcher
--
==Harmony Watcher==
*In case this confuses anybody, of course I'm being sarcastic.
(Harmony) Watcher
"George W Harris" <gha...@mundsprung.com> wrote in message
news:u4dea2tjvksceu1ak...@4ax.com...
memories of the "Bloody Awful Poet". The inherent goodness of William does
its transformative work once the demon inside William's husk has been
restrained by the chip.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
lili...@gmail.com
If all he wanted was to get into her pants then why didn't he take the
chance when she was unconscious?
Think about that for a second.
Be gur snpg gung ur fgnlrq nebhaq gb cebgrpg Qnja naq gur erfg bs gur
fpbbovrf juvyr Ohssl jnf qrnq, jvgubhg rira gur fyvtugrfg ovg bs n pyhr
gung Jvyybj naq gur bguref jrer cynaavat gb erffheerpg ure.
Lore
(Harmony) Watcher
<lili...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1151826324....@v61g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
--
==Harmony Watcher==
Elisi
> He wants into her pants. He's obsessed. Does this really need deep
> analysis?
>
> He's a vampire who can't chow down, who can't do the old violence,
> ultra or ordinary, he's a sentient creature trying to get through
> another 24 hour period without being dusted so he can work on getting
> through the next 24, and filling that void with something. Buffy as
> trophy lay fills the bill nicely.
>
> There's no there there.
Of course there's a there there - you choose to ignore it, but that's
your choice. And considering that you tally everything odd in this
season up to 'the spell' I can't help but finding it a little amusing.
I suppose you saw OBS's intelligent comment about the problems with
blaming the spell for everything, but I'd like to add something. Spells
can't produce feelings. There's a reason the monks made the Key into
the Slayers sister and created the fake memories - because they knew
that the sibling love would come automatically. If they'd made the key
into a bracelet there was no way of making it really matter to Buffy,
but it's different with family. Buffy takes no time at all accepting
responsibility for Dawn, because she loves her already.
There is no way of faking feelings like that - the nearest is a love
spell and we have already seen how that works. Spike does not act as
though he is under a love spell of any sort. Also - and this just
occurred to me recently - if he really had suddenly found himself with
protective feelings towards Dawn, why did he direct his obsession
towards Buffy? Sure Dawn is only 14, but hey - Angel fell for Buffy
when she was 15, so that shouldn't be too much of an obstacle.
I hope I'm not coming across as rude, but I'm just really struggling to
see where you're coming from. The thing is Spike *has* changed - and
rather than fight it, he's now trying to embrace it. *That* is the
amazing thing.
Just look at these exchanges:
Angel: Things change.
Spike: Not us! Not demons! Man, I can't believe this. You Uncle Tom!
(School Hard)
Buffy: Angel was good!
Spike: And I can be too. I've changed, Buffy.
(Crush)
I don't think Spike is suddenly full of good and noble intentions. I'm
not even sure that he understands what he's talking about. But he's
trying, and that is... stunning. IMHO anyway. :)
KenM47
Except Angel, most of the time.
Ken (Brooklyn)
KenM47
Ego. That's not what he wants. He wants her to say yes.
>
>Be gur snpg gung ur fgnlrq nebhaq gb cebgrpg Qnja naq gur erfg bs gur
>fpbbovrf juvyr Ohssl jnf qrnq, jvgubhg rira gur fyvtugrfg ovg bs n pyhr
>gung Jvyybj naq gur bguref jrer cynaavat gb erffheerpg ure.
>
>Lore
Pbaqvgvbavat. Zbax'f fcryy.
If I'm still posting then, I'll worry about it then.
Ken (Brooklyn)
cry...@panix.com
> But something really has changed none the less. All that time
> with the chip keeping him from his natural pursuits has made him
> adapt to a different kind of life so thoroughly that he really
> has become comfortable with watching Passions and keeping an eye
> on the Little Bit.
Really? I know there's no evidence either way, but I always
imagined Spike watching Passions before he ever met Buffy.
I guess I never thought about it, and it's more likely he started
watching Passions after he got a TV in S4 or S5 (whenever that
happened).
But I'm just going to pretend he always watched it, because the
image of S2 Spike taking time out to watch Passions amuses me :-)
--
-Crystal
lili...@gmail.com
> >If all he wanted was to get into her pants then why didn't he take the
> >chance when she was unconscious?
> >
> >Think about that for a second.
>
> Ego. That's not what he wants. He wants her to say yes.
In ergo, he wants more than to get into her pants.
>
> >
> >Be gur snpg gung ur fgnlrq nebhaq gb cebgrpg Qnja naq gur erfg bs gur
> >fpbbovrf juvyr Ohssl jnf qrnq, jvgubhg rira gur fyvtugrfg ovg bs n pyhr
> >gung Jvyybj naq gur bguref jrer cynaavat gb erffheerpg ure.
> >
> >Lore
>
> Pbaqvgvbavat. Zbax'f fcryy.
>
> If I'm still posting then, I'll worry about it then.
>
Sorry, not buying the spell defense.
As James said in the commentaries, (I think as far back as those of
s2), he always played Spike as being at least physically interested in
Buffy, it's just that in s2, he was too much in love with Dru to let it
go any further.
Once again, vampires can love, though not wisely. If they didn't, they
wouldn't spend so much time using chants and stuff to get rid of their
feelings.
Lore
lili...@gmail.com
Michael Ikeda
news:icJpg.114224$Mn5.114213@pd7tw3no:
>
> "George W Harris" <gha...@mundsprung.com> wrote in message
> news:u4dea2tjvksceu1ak...@4ax.com...
>> Yeah, but there's no indication that a vampire's
>> ever fallen in love with a Slayer, either. He's got
>> (somewhat) the motivation. She tells him he's a soulless
>> thing, he has just enough understanding of human
>> emotion to think that if he gets the soul then her
>> objection will go away (it's like a guy who, when a girl
>> tells him she won't go out with him because of something,
>> tries to change that thing).
>>
>>
> It's plenty enough coming from the emotional depths arising from
> all the memories of the "Bloody Awful Poet". The inherent
> goodness of William does its transformative work once the demon
> inside William's husk has been restrained by the chip.
And it's also the sort of dramatic gesture that might appeal to
William-transformed-into-Spike. Regardless of what else he is, Spike
is still a born romantic in a twisted sort of way.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
KenM47
First: I've backlogged like 700 posts here and do not know when I will
be able to get to them. I'll look for that OBS post you mention (In
this thread? Which thread?) I'm also way behind in my re-viewings
(back to Triangle) and going on memory.
Second: Too many other factors point to other than self realization
and internal change. Aside from the Monk's spell is the big one, the
Clockwork chip and its many side effects (plus, of course, Spike
cutting himself off from his demon support group because he enjoys
killing them all so much).
I don't see it, and do not expect I ever will. I enjoyed Spike. Never
in his thrall.
Third: Bad writing. As others have noted, way too many vampires walk
away in this episode. What exactly was that job description again? Or
is it all chalked up to remorse over the "harmless" whore vamp she
stabbed in the back?
I still do believe they were running out of story and doing a lot of
punting. No, I see no long range plan, except in the vaguest outline.
Looking to fill the time slot, and renewal issues as well.
And to be frank, I enjoyed this trip down memory lane up to the point
I lost interest in the show, which is about now, although I stayed
with it in hopes of a better tomorrow. Didn't happen. These
discussions are just bringing back that same unease and
disappointment.
Back to lurking.
Those who enjoy this and what follows, more power to you.
I really found this whole AOQ experience cathartic. I can move on.
I've recently discovered "Rescue Me" and trying to catch up. Brilliant
show. That and Deadwood and some others (like the new Doctor Who,
although trouble there in Season 2 IMO) Keeping me busy on the viewing
front.
Happy 4th everyone. Have a nice summer.
Ken (Brooklyn)
vague disclaimer
"\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
> The inherent goodness of William
What inherent goodness? That was entirely self image.
Elisi
> First: I've backlogged like 700 posts here and do not know when I will
> be able to get to them. I'll look for that OBS post you mention (In
> this thread? Which thread?) I'm also way behind in my re-viewings
> (back to Triangle) and going on memory.
Hey no worries. We do this for fun, remember? *g* OBS's comment that I
was referring to is currently #40 in this thread.
> Second: Too many other factors point to other than self realization
> and internal change. Aside from the Monk's spell is the big one, the
> Clockwork chip and its many side effects (plus, of course, Spike
> cutting himself off from his demon support group because he enjoys
> killing them all so much).
>
> I don't see it, and do not expect I ever will. I enjoyed Spike. Never
> in his thrall.
Very well. I don't see it as thrall, but as character development. Yes
a lot of external changes took place also, but the effect is obvious.
To me anyway...
> Third: Bad writing. As others have noted, way too many vampires walk
> away in this episode. What exactly was that job description again? Or
> is it all chalked up to remorse over the "harmless" whore vamp she
> stabbed in the back?
Blame Fury for the writing - although he does put across the view that
Spike *hasn't* changed. Many angry fangirls at the time apparently...
> I still do believe they were running out of story and doing a lot of
> punting. No, I see no long range plan, except in the vaguest outline.
> Looking to fill the time slot, and renewal issues as well.
>
> And to be frank, I enjoyed this trip down memory lane up to the point
> I lost interest in the show, which is about now, although I stayed
> with it in hopes of a better tomorrow. Didn't happen. These
> discussions are just bringing back that same unease and
> disappointment.
Well this is the point when I really began to get properly interested
in the show - the early seasons were entertaining, but not the stuff of
obsession.
> Back to lurking.
>
> Those who enjoy this and what follows, more power to you.
>
> I really found this whole AOQ experience cathartic. I can move on.
> I've recently discovered "Rescue Me" and trying to catch up. Brilliant
> show. That and Deadwood and some others (like the new Doctor Who,
> although trouble there in Season 2 IMO) Keeping me busy on the viewing
> front.
>
> Happy 4th everyone. Have a nice summer.
Same to you! :)
Elisi
So vampires are *totally, completely* evil and humans have no inherent
goodness... I'm glad I don't live in your world. :)
3D Master
> In article <l64o-1rj5-8F549...@mercury.nildram.net>,
> vague disclaimer <l64o...@dea.spamcon.org> wrote:
>
>> Hmmm. Same spell, same curse? I can think of little duller than to
>> re-tread a story that was left as a spent husk 2 years before.
>
> if he knows the curse
> hes that kind of demon
Spike, the demon wouldn't have much to say about that, now would he?
It's the soul that's in control with him trapped beneath that gets to
say that.
3D Master
--
~~~~~
"I've got something to say; it's better to burn out than to fade away!"
- The Kurgan, Highlander
"Give me some sugar, baby!"
- Ashley J. 'Ash' Williams, Army of Darkness
~~~~~
Author of several stories, which can be found here:
http://members.chello.nl/~jg.temolder1/
3D Master
> "KenM47" <Ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:jt5ea2tatai436jbs...@4ax.com...
>
>> He wants into her pants. He's obsessed. Does this really need deep
>> analysis?
>
> This episode went through considerable effort to suggest more.
>
>
>> He's a vampire who can't chow down, who can't do the old violence,
>> ultra or ordinary, he's a sentient creature trying to get through
>> another 24 hour period without being dusted so he can work on getting
>> through the next 24, and filling that void with something. Buffy as
>> trophy lay fills the bill nicely.
>
> Offering to dust Drusilla. Sure, just passing the time. He was telling the
> truth when he said that means something. It might not mean anything to
> Buffy, but it sure as hell does to him.
Oh, please. Drusilla is no longer his obsession, so she goes.
>> There's no there there.
>
> Bu, pbzr ba, Xra. Lbh *xabj* gung'f abg gehr. Rira jvguva gur pbasvarf bs
> guvf frnfba Fcvxr'f tbvat gb nqncg gb n zber urebvp guna frkhny pbaprea sbe
> Ohssl - naq ur'yy or dhvgr frevbhf nobhg vg.
>
> OBS
LOL!!!
3D Master
> KenM47 wrote:
>> He wants into her pants. He's obsessed. Does this really need deep
>> analysis?
>>
>> He's a vampire who can't chow down, who can't do the old violence,
>> ultra or ordinary, he's a sentient creature trying to get through
>> another 24 hour period without being dusted so he can work on getting
>> through the next 24, and filling that void with something. Buffy as
>> trophy lay fills the bill nicely.
>>
>> There's no there there.
>>
>> Ken (Brooklyn)
>
> If all he wanted was to get into her pants then why didn't he take the
> chance when she was unconscious?
>
> Think about that for a second.
Because fucking an unconscious Buffy doesn't stroke the ego enough.
> Be gur snpg gung ur fgnlrq nebhaq gb cebgrpg Qnja naq gur erfg bs gur
> fpbbovrf juvyr Ohssl jnf qrnq, jvgubhg rira gur fyvtugrfg ovg bs n pyhr
> gung Jvyybj naq gur bguref jrer cynaavat gb erffheerpg ure.
Ur'f tbg n puvc gung xrrcf uvz sebz uhegvat nalbar, gung zrnaf vs fbzr
inzcver uhagre bhgfvqr bs Fhaaalqnyr ehaf vagb uvz; ur'f qhfg. Gur
Fpbbovrf qba'g xvyy uvz juvyr ur'f urycvat gurz, gurer'f abguvat
zlfgrevbhf nobhg gung: frys cerfreingvba. Nf sbe Qnja; qb abgvpr ubj
dhvpxyl ur fubjrq ur qvqa'g tvir n qnza nobhg ure, naq qvqa'g obgure
jvgu ure nalzber, gur zbzrag Ohssl erghearq. Zl thrff: Ohssl'f qrnq,
Qnja vf ure zntvpnyyl perngrq pybar: gur arkg orfg guvat.
3D Master
> Sorry, not buying the spell defense.
> As James said in the commentaries, (I think as far back as those of
> s2), he always played Spike as being at least physically interested in
> Buffy, it's just that in s2, he was too much in love with Dru to let it
> go any further.
>
> Once again, vampires can love, though not wisely. If they didn't, they
> wouldn't spend so much time using chants and stuff to get rid of their
> feelings.
No, vampires cannot love. They can lust, and they can obsess, and they
often mistake that for love, but they can't actually love. Gur ernfba
jul ur fghpx nebhaq: frys-cerfreingvba. N inzcver uhagre bhgfvqr bs
Fhaalqnyr svaqf uvz, ur'f qhfg, gur Fpbbovrf xrrc uvz nyvir nf ybat ur
urycf gurz. Gura gurer'f Qnja orvat Ohssl'f zntvpnyyl perngrq pybar; gur
3D Master
> In article <icJpg.114224$Mn5.114213@pd7tw3no>,
> "\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
>
>> The inherent goodness of William
>
> What inherent goodness? That was entirely self image.
Indeed, and even if there was, it's no longer there. This isn't William,
this is a demon animating his corpse.
vague disclaimer
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
Welcome to the world of hasty induction.
(Harmony) Watcher
"3D Master" <3d.m...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:dec66$44a7c456$3ec2ee50$96...@news.chello.nl...
> lili...@gmail.com wrote:
> > KenM47 wrote:
> >> He wants into her pants. He's obsessed. Does this really need deep
> >> analysis?
> >>
> >> He's a vampire who can't chow down, who can't do the old violence,
> >> ultra or ordinary, he's a sentient creature trying to get through
> >> another 24 hour period without being dusted so he can work on getting
> >> through the next 24, and filling that void with something. Buffy as
> >> trophy lay fills the bill nicely.
> >>
> >> There's no there there.
> >>
> >> Ken (Brooklyn)
> >
> > If all he wanted was to get into her pants then why didn't he take the
> > chance when she was unconscious?
> >
> > Think about that for a second.
>
> Because fucking an unconscious Buffy doesn't stroke the ego enough.
>
>
now, succeeded in suppressing the super-ego, but instead is now fighting the
*id* by denying it sexual gratification? Still remember that *your* vamps
are supposed to be evil evil evil?
--
==Harmony Watcher==
KenM47
Ego the size of Alaska is not inconsistent. E.g., Angelus could have
killed Buffy or before that Dru, but preferred the "art" of mental
torture before the kill.
And don't for a second tell me they have not portrayed Spike as Mr.
Ego Jr.; just look at the pride in the two Slayer kills as portrayed
in FFL.
You can't eliminate the chip. You can't eliminate the Monks' spell.
You have no control group to establish any "change," internally
driven in particular, on the part of Spike beyond the conditioning of
the chip (and its sequellae) and the spell. It's a major failing in
the tale even assuming at some point in Season 4 or 5 they decided to
have Spike go on his own hero's journey. His motives are never clean,
never pure, always suspect. Yes, he's an evil demon soul vampire
occupying a dead formerly human husk.
As far as I'm concerned, the Monks' spell screws everything up (urer
naq guebhtu gb Pubfra) more than the chip. Together, it's a foregone
conclusion that the story has lost its integrity as to Spike and as to
Buffy.
<Now I'm really, really done talking about this>
Ken (Brooklyn)
(Harmony) Watcher
In the so-called "altered reality" resulting from the Monks corrupting the
memory of everyone necessary, Dawn was a *sentient* being regardless of
whether she was a living and breathing human or otherwise. Even Data in
ST:TNG and the Holo-Doc in ST:Voyager, who were clearly non-carbon-based
beings, were treated with enlightened latitudes that they might be truly
sentient. The exact manner how Dawn was created by the Monks is unimportant.
And the argument that she was non-human before she was created is irrelevant
because it is unlikely any human person in BtVS or in real life was human
before the person was conceived either.
My personal view is that in the grand scheme of things, every reality has as
much physical validity as any other reality, some of them more likable to us
than others, of course. What counts, perhaps, is that we make our humanity
*transcend* our linear biases toward some referred version of reality
instead of getting fixated on trying to return to some previously known
reality without regard to intervening circumstances.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
(Harmony) Watcher
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1151843674.1...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Exactly.
In fact, I was more or less being sarcastic when I made that remark as I
know some one would likely fall for it.
In my opinion, the view that "vamps are inherently evil" is just as silly as
the view "humans are inherently good". Apparently both are consequences of
the view that "in Buffyverse, the soul is the primary determinant of good
and evil", which some people thought was an immutable axiom cast in stone in
Buffyverse. In my views, anybody who is fixated on either one of those two
views (or both) are simply confused by Watcher propaganda from very early
Season 1. Even Giles told Buffy otherwise as she became more mature.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
KenM47
>
>"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1151843674.1...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> vague disclaimer wrote:
>> > In article <icJpg.114224$Mn5.114213@pd7tw3no>,
>> > "\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > The inherent goodness of William
>> >
>> > What inherent goodness? That was entirely self image.
>> > --
>> > Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
>>
>> So vampires are *totally, completely* evil and humans have no inherent
>> goodness... I'm glad I don't live in your world. :)
>>
>
>Exactly.
>
>In fact, I was more or less being sarcastic when I made that remark as I
>know some one would likely fall for it.
>
>In my opinion, the view that "vamps are inherently evil" is just as silly as
>the view "humans are inherently good". Apparently both are consequences of
>the view that "in Buffyverse, the soul is the primary determinant of good
>and evil", which some people thought was an immutable axiom cast in stone in
>Buffyverse. In my views, anybody who is fixated on either one of those two
>views (or both) are simply confused by Watcher propaganda from very early
>Season 1. Even Giles told Buffy otherwise as she became more mature.
Close, no cigar. In the Buffyverse:
1) Vamps are inherently evil; and
2) The human soul is the primary factor in the ability to freely
choose between good and evil
Ken (Brooklyn)
Elisi
*nods*
Having just written a HUGE enormous essay on the meaning of souls in
the Buffy-verse, I'm not about to go into another debate, but basically
I see the soul as giving someone a conscience. Whether they act on it
or not is up to them (Angel sat around for 100 years doing less than
zero - which is proof enough that a soul doesn't make you suddenly
good). And while I think that vampires *are* inherently evil (what with
the whole demon thing) then I don't think that's all they are. Spike
for example has shown that he is brave, loyal, caring, tencious, funny,
devoted, smart and a brilliant fighter. All these are *good* qualities,
what matters is what use they're being put to.
Also vampires can't help being evil as such, so I'd say that the dinner
lady who tried to poison the children in 'Earshot' or the zoo keeper in
'The Pack' are more evil than your average vamp! They had a choice,
vampires don't. Except Spike of course is currently trying to challenge
that...
(Harmony) Watcher
> vague disclaimer wrote:
> > In article <icJpg.114224$Mn5.114213@pd7tw3no>,
> > "\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
> >
> >> The inherent goodness of William
> >
> > What inherent goodness? That was entirely self image.
>
> Indeed, and even if there was, it's no longer there. This isn't William,
> this is a demon animating his corpse.
>
>
By your logic, you're assuming that the soul in Buffyverse is the magical
determinant of good vs evil: humans are inherently good, vamps are
inherently evil. Therefore, if you assume most people with a human soul are
inherently good, then by your own logic, William was likely a good person
before he was killed by Dru. The effect of having a decent person's memory
and, hence, his super-ego cannot be underestimated. The chip restrained the
beast, and then the "superego" of William returned to battle with the
demon-controlled id.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
(Harmony) Watcher
Lore have already cited many times over. Cite on screen evidence other than
Watcher's propaganda to support Statement (2).
--
==Harmony Watcher==
vague disclaimer
"\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
> "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1151843674.1...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > vague disclaimer wrote:
> > > In article <icJpg.114224$Mn5.114213@pd7tw3no>,
> > > "\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > The inherent goodness of William
> > >
> > > What inherent goodness? That was entirely self image.
> > > --
> > > Wikipedia: like Usenet, moderated by trolls
> >
> > So vampires are *totally, completely* evil and humans have no inherent
> > goodness... I'm glad I don't live in your world. :)
> >
>
> Exactly.
>
> In fact, I was more or less being sarcastic when I made that remark as I
> know some one would likely fall for it.
>
Nice retcon. Not.
I was being specific and so were you. All we know about William is that
he was a crappy poet with delusions of adequacy who looked down on
others. We know nothing about his 'inherent' nature.
> In my opinion, the view that "vamps are inherently evil" is just as silly as
> the view "humans are inherently good". Apparently both are consequences of
> the view that "in Buffyverse, the soul is the primary determinant of good
> and evil", which some people thought was an immutable axiom cast in stone in
> Buffyverse. In my views, anybody who is fixated on either one of those two
> views (or both) are simply confused by Watcher propaganda from very early
> Season 1. Even Giles told Buffy otherwise as she became more mature.
--
KenM47
Putting "1" to the side:
Evil human child without a human soul in AtS "I've Got You Under My
Skin."
Ken (Brooklyn)
beloved
3D Master wrote:
>
> After this scene I always go: "DUST! DUST! FOR f's sake dust the bastard
> already!? Chip or no chip. He's tried to kill Buffy and friends, he's
> tried to get the ship out to kill them, he betrayed them to Adam, he
> stalked Buffy, stole her underwear and stuff, now chained her up with
> his crazy ex killing machine, tried to have that one kill Buffy if she
> didn't confess her love to him! DUST! Every other vamp gets killed
> before they even stand on the dug up ground of their graves, why the
> flying F is this bastard who continues to try and kill everyone still
> around! DUST! DUST! DUST! AAARGGHH!"
>
> It really happened earlier, but this is final moment; this where you
> say, BtVS jumped the effing shark.
>
>
>
> 3D Master
> --
You mean this is where _YOU_ say it jumped the shark. For me, S5 is
when Buffy started getting _REALLY_ good. Ya know, given all the posts
I've read from you over the past couple weeks (I just joined, thanks to
Elisi), I'm kinda surprised you actually watched the rest of BtVS. You
must have hated much of it with the heat of a thousand firey suns.
Lidia
Don Sample
lili...@gmail.com wrote:
> KenM47 wrote:
> > He wants into her pants. He's obsessed. Does this really need deep
> > analysis?
> >
> > He's a vampire who can't chow down, who can't do the old violence,
> > ultra or ordinary, he's a sentient creature trying to get through
> > another 24 hour period without being dusted so he can work on getting
> > through the next 24, and filling that void with something. Buffy as
> > trophy lay fills the bill nicely.
> >
> > There's no there there.
> >
> > Ken (Brooklyn)
>
> If all he wanted was to get into her pants then why didn't he take the
> chance when she was unconscious?
>
> Think about that for a second.
Because it's no fun if they don't fight back. This is Spike we're
talking about. The guy who thinks getting beat up is like third base.
(That's why he likes Joyce so much. First time they met, she hit him
with an axe.)
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
George W Harris
:>
:>Be gur snpg gung ur fgnlrq nebhaq gb cebgrpg Qnja naq gur erfg bs gur
:>fpbbovrf juvyr Ohssl jnf qrnq, jvgubhg rira gur fyvtugrfg ovg bs n pyhr
:>gung Jvyybj naq gur bguref jrer cynaavat gb erffheerpg ure.
:>
:>Lore
:
:Pbaqvgvbavat. Zbax'f fcryy.
Occam's razor says not to multiply entities
needlessly. By proposing that the monk's spell does
lots and lots more than just create Dawn and implant
memories, rather than just accept what's shown on
the screen (you know, a vampire falling in love with a
slayer), you're violating Occam's razor.
:Ken (Brooklyn)
--
"It is always a simple matter to drag people along whether it is a
democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist
dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the
bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them
they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of
patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every
country."
-Hermann Goering
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'.
Elisi
>The guy who thinks getting beat up is like third base.
> (That's why he likes Joyce so much. First time they met, she hit him
> with an axe.)
FCVXR: Pner? Wblpr jnf gur bayl bar bs gur ybg bs lbh gung V pbhyq
fgnaq.
KNAQRE: Naq fur'f gur bayl bar jvgu n qnhtugre lbh jnagrq gb funt. V'z
gbhpurq.
FCVXR: V yvxrq gur ynql. Haqrefgnaq, zbaxrl obl? Fur jnf qrprag.
(Knaqre naq Jvyybj rkpunatr n ybbx) Fur qvqa'g chg ba nvef. Fur nyjnlf
unq n avpr phccn sbe zr.
Jvyybj ybbxf flzcngurgvp.
FCVXR: Naq fur arire gerngrq zr yvxr n sernx.
KNAQRE: Ure zvfgnxr.
FCVXR: (fpbssf) Guvax jung lbh jnag.
Ur guebjf gur sybjref gb gur tebhaq naq fgbzcf bss.
KNAQRE: Ha ... oryvrinoyr.
Jvyybj ybbxf ng Knaqre, oraqf gb cvpx hc gur sybjref.
KNAQRE: Gur thl guvaxf ur pna chg ba n ovt fubj naq pba Ohssl vagb
orvat uvf frk zbaxrl.
JVYYBJ: (ybbxvat ng sybjref) Knaqre... (ur ybbxf ng ure) Ur qvqa'g
yrnir n pneq.
'Sberire'
~~~
Ner lbh fher lbh nera'g Knaqre?
vague disclaimer
"\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
> Watcher's propaganda to support Statement
You declaring it 'Watcher's Propaganda' does not make it false.
Must do better.
3D Master
The seventh season far beyond a thousand fiery suns. The damn thing is,
that S6 is pretty good, unless you tag S7 behind it. S7 is disgusting
beyond measure, I've watched, and literally had urges to throw up,
that's how horrible S7 is. And top of that, it's just one big plothole
ridden piece of crap on top of it.