AOQ Angel Review 5-2: "Just Rewards"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
ANGEL
Season Five, Episode 2: "Just Rewards"
(or "Spikey the homosexual friendly ghost!")
Writers: David Fury and Ben Edlund; story by Fury
Director: James A. Contner
The DVDs gave me back my "previouslies!" Well, this one, anyway.
Hopefully it'll be a trend. Doesn't make up for all the years going
without on R1, but better than nothing. I feel like the TV experience
isn't quite complete without them, and I'm being totally serious.
The fiancée ("Mrs." Q.) thought this one was on the dull side too.
I'm reconsidering the whole marriage thing.
Spike is cast in the same position as new viewers to the spinoff - not
knowing anything that happened after "Chosen," or who all these people
around him are. I was soaking up the flashbacks to Spike's death -
for me, it's actually been a few months since the end of the other
show, so the epilogues and follow-ups are in their appropriate place.
As with so many others, he had what could have been a satisfying
ending to his arc, but it's not going to be that easy. The show is
pretty blatant there: "you'd think that saving the sodding world would
be enough to earn me a rest." Not in the Buffyverse.
Quite amused at all the things Angel didn't think were worth
mentioning to his group. It would seem that he and Buffy have talked
in the months since her series ended - presumably ran up the phone
bill quite a bit, given the details that he now knows about, say,
Captain Peroxide's living situation in early Season Seven. That'd be
an interesting conversation to listen in on - mostly recaps, but I
always want to know how people tell the stories, what they emphasize,
what they leave out...
In the meantime, there's nothing to do but have Spike hang around
haunting Angel and let the others react. This is fun breezy stuff,
with the actors having a good time generally not liking each other.
It basically requires that the viewer appreciate the interactions
between the two characters, which I do, since that's mostly what the
early parts come down to. I'd list a bunch of quotes, but the appeal
is more in the context/tone/delivery than in the lines themselves.
Interesting to see that when they do their "fighting over a girl" bit,
Angel is the one who takes the "she's not mine to 'keep'" tack.
Meanwhile, Harmony hangs around just long enough to entertain and
quickly fades out of the episode once it starts getting to the point -
what they really should've done is have Spike not direct a single line
of dialogue toward her all episode. Ah, well. Also I'd have had her
be sure to back away when first leaving the room.
Our hero killing his three o'clock is painfully telegraphed and not
actually very funny, but Spike's "oh, fuck this" expression after
failing to connect with his punch almost saves it. Moving on, there's
a bit of a reversed hero-villain vibe in that we have the bad guy able
to toss the good guy around in a "fair" mano-a-telekentico fight, and
the hero resorting to slimy legal maneuvering to keep him down.
That's the high-ish concept side of why the visit to the necromancer
works - the more direct component is of course Spike's stream of
constant disdain for all things Corporate Angel.
Gay jokes are a token of modern-day buddy stories, and it looks like
ATS won't be skimping there, between "he's my date" and having one
vampire hang out in the other's bedroom. First time we've seen Angel
shirtless in a few years, not counting the very brief scene in
"Awakening" - guess he got in shape again. But was he really going to
sleep in those pants?
This is about the point where the episode starts to smoothly move into
taking itself more seriously. There's Spike's apparent eagerness to
try to kill Angel which gives us an act break, but the real
transitional moment is Angel finding out about a way to get rid of
him. That scene moves from the comedic pettiness of "yeah, yeah,
mercy. I'm all for it. Just, hey, tell me how we do it," to the
conflicted delivery on "I think I want to sleep on it" once a
practical way to kill Spike actually emerges. One that people are
quick to point out might be the most merciful option. The best
Buffyverse shows have found a way to smoothly extract drama from out
of the fun and tongue-in-cheek -- achieved here by the followup A/S
dialogues. After entertaining us as a wisecracking ghost sidekick,
Spoik turns things around with the line "what, think I could really
stand hanging out with you and your lot, now and forever?
Wisecracking ghost sidekick? No bloody thanks," and it's quite
believable.
After that, the rest of "Just Rewards" is a series of double-crosses.
Not such deep stuff, but still fast-paced and entertaining. The
necromancer's reappearance is timed well, as is the way Spike found a
core of honesty that managed to get Angel to trust him so he could
seemingly betray him after all. And the idea of putting him in
Angel's body is whacked out enough to work for me. Now, although I
did figure out what the vampires' real plan was well before our late
villain did, I was momentarily fooled, which is slightly embarrassing
since I really should know Spike v. 2.0 better than that by now. He
may not have a quasi-split personality like his granddad, but one can
never argue that he's not very different than the animal-like
opportunist of "Out Of My Mind." Knew that Spike was just taking
advantage of the chance to take a swing at Angel, but liked it anyway.
This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
- "But you're dead." "Well, yeah. Who here isn't? Besides him, and
him, and her, and... what are you again?"
- "You mean my skin and muscle burning away from the bone? Organs
exploding in my chest? Eyeballs melting in their sockets? No. No
memory at all. Thanks for asking."
- Spike sitting in Angel's chair
- [Angel hits himself] "Uh, I think you missed." [and the "dead
shall rise" pun comes right after that too]
The closing scene leaves our second souled vampire in a kind of
Limbo. Spike has a vision of himself on the brink of hell, and since
he goes to Fred, I guess he seems to see it as something tangible
rather than spiritual. Why's he going to Fred again? I don't quite
get what the scene's going for, but Marsters sells it very well,
making the viewer feel the desperate edge of the closing "help me" and
feel patiently eager to see what the show does next. I know that some
argue that Spike was "shoehorned in" to this series, but just based on
this episode, it looks like he'll be a great fit.
So...
One-sentence summary: Much better.
AOQ rating: Good
[Season Five so far:
1) "Conviction" - Weak
2) "Just Rewards" - Good]
MBangel10 (Melissa)
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> ANGEL
> Season Five, Episode 2: "Just Rewards"
> (or "Spikey the homosexual friendly ghost!")
> Writers: David Fury and Ben Edlund; story by Fury
> Director: James A. Contner
>
> The DVDs gave me back my "previouslies!" Well, this one, anyway.
> Hopefully it'll be a trend. Doesn't make up for all the years going
> without on R1, but better than nothing. I feel like the TV experience
> isn't quite complete without them, and I'm being totally serious.
It's been a long while since I watched my S5 DVD's and I admit I forgot
about them on Just Rewards until I saw it last night, and it made me
realize how much I missed seeing those.
>
> The fiancée ("Mrs." Q.) thought this one was on the dull side too.
> I'm reconsidering the whole marriage thing.
Blasphemy! I tell you! LOL
>
> Spike is cast in the same position as new viewers to the spinoff - not
> knowing anything that happened after "Chosen," or who all these people
> around him are. I was soaking up the flashbacks to Spike's death -
> for me, it's actually been a few months since the end of the other
> show, so the epilogues and follow-ups are in their appropriate place.
> As with so many others, he had what could have been a satisfying
> ending to his arc, but it's not going to be that easy. The show is
> pretty blatant there: "you'd think that saving the sodding world would
> be enough to earn me a rest." Not in the Buffyverse.
I had great qualms about a Buffyless post "Chosen" Spike showing up on
Angel but "Just Rewards" made me realize that I enjoyed the character
just as much without her. The banter between him and Angel really made
this episode (and Angel knocking himself in the head with an urn didn't
hurt either).
>
> Quite amused at all the things Angel didn't think were worth
> mentioning to his group. It would seem that he and Buffy have talked
> in the months since her series ended - presumably ran up the phone
> bill quite a bit, given the details that he now knows about, say,
> Captain Peroxide's living situation in early Season Seven. That'd be
> an interesting conversation to listen in on - mostly recaps, but I
> always want to know how people tell the stories, what they emphasize,
> what they leave out...
Poor Angel feels a little less special in the world, and I couldn't help
but remember Buffy's words to him in the cemetery in Sunnydale, "what,
are you 12?"
I can almost imagine that conversation... Angel asking how it went down
and Buffy going into an hour long story about Spike's S7 journey, which
leads Angel to act like he does when Spike mentions Buffy.
"You're not in the world, Casper" Ouch.
>
> In the meantime, there's nothing to do but have Spike hang around
> haunting Angel and let the others react. This is fun breezy stuff,
> with the actors having a good time generally not liking each other.
> It basically requires that the viewer appreciate the interactions
> between the two characters, which I do, since that's mostly what the
> early parts come down to. I'd list a bunch of quotes, but the appeal
> is more in the context/tone/delivery than in the lines themselves.
> Interesting to see that when they do their "fighting over a girl" bit,
> Angel is the one who takes the "she's not mine to 'keep'" tack.
> Meanwhile, Harmony hangs around just long enough to entertain and
> quickly fades out of the episode once it starts getting to the point -
> what they really should've done is have Spike not direct a single line
> of dialogue toward her all episode. Ah, well. Also I'd have had her
> be sure to back away when first leaving the room.
If she would have backed out of the room, that would have been
priceless. You bring up an excellent missed opportunity for a die hard
Buffy fan chuckle.
>
> Our hero killing his three o'clock is painfully telegraphed and not
> actually very funny, but Spike's "oh, fuck this" expression after
> failing to connect with his punch almost saves it. Moving on, there's
> a bit of a reversed hero-villain vibe in that we have the bad guy able
> to toss the good guy around in a "fair" mano-a-telekentico fight, and
> the hero resorting to slimy legal maneuvering to keep him down.
> That's the high-ish concept side of why the visit to the necromancer
> works - the more direct component is of course Spike's stream of
> constant disdain for all things Corporate Angel.
I think a lot of Angel's disdain is also about non-Buffy jealousy in
that Spike just dealt with the soul better (and y'know actually wanting
one in the first place). So, is Spike's presence really giving Angel
that much doubt about "being special"?
"Fair?! You asked for a soul. I didn't! It almost killed me. I spent a
hundred years trying to come to terms with infinite remorse. You spent 3
weeks moaning in a basement, and then you were fine! What's fair about
that?!"
>
> Gay jokes are a token of modern-day buddy stories, and it looks like
> ATS won't be skimping there, between "he's my date" and having one
> vampire hang out in the other's bedroom. First time we've seen Angel
> shirtless in a few years, not counting the very brief scene in
> "Awakening" - guess he got in shape again. But was he really going to
> sleep in those pants?
This stuff is a slash writers dream come true.
> This is about the point where the episode starts to smoothly move into
> taking itself more seriously. There's Spike's apparent eagerness to
> try to kill Angel which gives us an act break, but the real
> transitional moment is Angel finding out about a way to get rid of
> him. That scene moves from the comedic pettiness of "yeah, yeah,
> mercy. I'm all for it. Just, hey, tell me how we do it," to the
> conflicted delivery on "I think I want to sleep on it" once a
> practical way to kill Spike actually emerges. One that people are
> quick to point out might be the most merciful option. The best
> Buffyverse shows have found a way to smoothly extract drama from out
> of the fun and tongue-in-cheek -- achieved here by the followup A/S
> dialogues. After entertaining us as a wisecracking ghost sidekick,
> Spoik turns things around with the line "what, think I could really
> stand hanging out with you and your lot, now and forever?
> Wisecracking ghost sidekick? No bloody thanks," and it's quite
> believable.
A lot of the "Spike's still evil" faction used this conversation with
Angel as a selling point to the dark side. Once he said that he didn't
trust Hainsley any more than he did Angel... then that must have really
meant that if he could've trusted him, then Spike would have went for it
and double crossed Angel without blinking.
Which leads us to...
>
> After that, the rest of "Just Rewards" is a series of double-crosses.
> Not such deep stuff, but still fast-paced and entertaining. The
> necromancer's reappearance is timed well, as is the way Spike found a
> core of honesty that managed to get Angel to trust him so he could
> seemingly betray him after all. And the idea of putting him in
> Angel's body is whacked out enough to work for me. Now, although I
> did figure out what the vampires' real plan was well before our late
> villain did, I was momentarily fooled, which is slightly embarrassing
> since I really should know Spike v. 2.0 better than that by now.
I had the fleeting thought that if they go there, episode 3-22 was not
going to be watched by me.
> He may not have a quasi-split personality like his granddad, but one can
> never argue that he's not very different than the animal-like
> opportunist of "Out Of My Mind." Knew that Spike was just taking
> advantage of the chance to take a swing at Angel, but liked it anyway.
Well, attempting to kick Angel's ass is expected, betraying him would
have done the series in for me.
>
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> - "But you're dead." "Well, yeah. Who here isn't? Besides him, and
> him, and her, and... what are you again?"
> - "You mean my skin and muscle burning away from the bone? Organs
> exploding in my chest? Eyeballs melting in their sockets? No. No
> memory at all. Thanks for asking."
> - Spike sitting in Angel's chair
> - [Angel hits himself] "Uh, I think you missed." [and the "dead
> shall rise" pun comes right after that too]
>
> The closing scene leaves our second souled vampire in a kind of
> Limbo. Spike has a vision of himself on the brink of hell, and since
> he goes to Fred, I guess he seems to see it as something tangible
> rather than spiritual. Why's he going to Fred again? I don't quite
> get what the scene's going for, but Marsters sells it very well,
> making the viewer feel the desperate edge of the closing "help me" and
> feel patiently eager to see what the show does next. I know that some
> argue that Spike was "shoehorned in" to this series, but just based on
> this episode, it looks like he'll be a great fit.
I was in full on panic mode, even though I knew he was second in the
credits....
Spike didn't feel shoehorned in so much as ending up a much needed
addition to the cast for me. Yes, the show lost Cordy in the credits but
after the end of S4, I sure wasn't missing her (or Connor for that
matter, considering he's the biggest reason I stopped watching ATS in
the first place).
Now if only I could've liked Lorne more, S5 would have been REALLY
enjoyable. However, I find his character more irritating than endearing
most of the time and it puts a slight damper on the season for me.
>
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Much better.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
Agreed.
Michael Ikeda
news:QtCdnVeKz6uSs1zY...@comcast.com:
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
>> review threads.
>>
>>
>> ANGEL
>> Season Five, Episode 2: "Just Rewards"
>> (or "Spikey the homosexual friendly ghost!")
>> Writers: David Fury and Ben Edlund; story by Fury
>> Director: James A. Contner
>>
>
>> He may not have a quasi-split personality like his granddad,
>> but one can never argue that he's not very different than the
>> animal-like opportunist of "Out Of My Mind." Knew that Spike
>> was just taking advantage of the chance to take a swing at
>> Angel, but liked it anyway.
>
> Well, attempting to kick Angel's ass is expected, betraying him
> would have done the series in for me.
Nygubhtu znlor ur'yy ng yrnfg trg gb qral Natry guerr gvzrf...
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Apteryx
news:1170281088....@a75g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>The DVDs gave me back my "previouslies!" Well, this one, anyway.
>Hopefully it'll be a trend. Doesn't make up for all the years going
>without on R1, but better than nothing. I feel like the TV experience
>isn't quite complete without them, and I'm being totally serious.
Yeah, a bad miss leaving them out. I have R4 sets for BtVS 1, 6 & 7 (with
"previouslies") and it is great to see the episodes as broadcast - well
except for the fact that the 6 & 7 are in widescreen on the R4 sets, but
weren't broadcast that way.
>Quite amused at all the things Angel didn't think were worth
>mentioning to his group. It would seem that he and Buffy have talked
>in the months since her series ended - presumably ran up the phone
>bill quite a bit, given the details that he now knows about, say,
>Captain Peroxide's living situation in early Season Seven.
It's not months - according to the caption at the start of that flashback,
its been just 19 days since Sunnydale went boom. Buffy's been busy.
>In the meantime, there's nothing to do but have Spike hang around
>haunting Angel and let the others react. This is fun breezy stuff,
>with the actors having a good time generally not liking each other.
Its good for a while, but it seems to go on a bit for my taste.
>failing to connect with his punch almost saves it. Moving on, there's
>a bit of a reversed hero-villain vibe in that we have the bad guy able
>to toss the good guy around in a "fair" mano-a-telekentico fight, and
>the hero resorting to slimy legal maneuvering to keep him down.
>That's the high-ish concept side of why the visit to the necromancer
>works - the more direct component is of course Spike's stream of
>constant disdain for all things Corporate Angel.
OTOH why it doesn't work is the absurdity of Angel and Spike being the team
to take on a necromancer, with power over the dead. Wes warns him, but maybe
puts too much emphasis on him being a CEO as opposed to the more telling
point of him being a vampire.
Liked the butler though. Although maybe Hainsley shouldn't have been so
cheap as to combine the positions of butler and hired killer. There are few
enough that can do either job to a high level of professionalism, the number
who can do both must be vanishingly small.
>So...
>One-sentence summary: Much better.
>AOQ rating: Good
Definitely not better than Conviction for me. AtS 5 is taking a brief break
while the shoehorning is in progress. All the same, it is the to credit of
the season that one of its weakest episodes is still watchable, and often
enjoyable. For me its Decent, the 68th best AtS episode, 21st best in season
5.
--
Apteryx
One Bit Shy
news:1170281088....@a75g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> ANGEL
> Season Five, Episode 2: "Just Rewards"
> Spike is cast in the same position as new viewers to the spinoff - not
> knowing anything that happened after "Chosen," or who all these people
> around him are. I was soaking up the flashbacks to Spike's death -
> for me, it's actually been a few months since the end of the other
> show, so the epilogues and follow-ups are in their appropriate place.
> As with so many others, he had what could have been a satisfying
> ending to his arc, but it's not going to be that easy. The show is
> pretty blatant there: "you'd think that saving the sodding world would
> be enough to earn me a rest." Not in the Buffyverse.
It's probably not important, but I had the same reaction to the Chosen
flashback that I had to Angel's initial appearance in The Yoko Factor. It
looked wrong. It didn't look like AtS. Again I was struck by how different
the two series had become even at such a low level.
Getting Spike to fit in, however, is a bigger deal. And, well, I don't they
figured it out in this episode. The notion that maybe he should have been
left in peace is an OK dramatic element that was briefly used effectively.
But all it can do is buy a little time - unless they want to redo BtVS S6.
By the end of the episode it was already a misdirect - part of an elaborate
trick.
Don't get me wrong. Both uses of the idea were good - as far as it goes.
It just doesn't go far.
> In the meantime, there's nothing to do but have Spike hang around
> haunting Angel and let the others react. This is fun breezy stuff,
> with the actors having a good time generally not liking each other.
> It basically requires that the viewer appreciate the interactions
> between the two characters, which I do, since that's mostly what the
> early parts come down to.
It was OK. I was reasonably entertained. But I don't think it was
especially good either. They're still - working out how to play together.
(And I'm not too keen on the idea of a season of them bickering like that.
Hopefully they'll do more than that.)
Actually, I'm not even sure they were actually working it out. Spike's
voice sounded a little odd - I suspect from being recorded in a different
physical setup. Part of whatever they had to do to film incorporeal Spike.
A lot of it may not have been played opposite each other.
> Gay jokes are a token of modern-day buddy stories, and it looks like
> ATS won't be skimping there, between "he's my date" and having one
> vampire hang out in the other's bedroom.
I'm noticing the various comments about gay undertones in AtS. They may be
right, but I personally never noticed it except in a pretty standard context
of low level hetero discomfort with any such suggestion.
> ...the real
> transitional moment is Angel finding out about a way to get rid of
> him. That scene moves from the comedic pettiness of "yeah, yeah,
> mercy. I'm all for it. Just, hey, tell me how we do it," to the
> conflicted delivery on "I think I want to sleep on it" once a
> practical way to kill Spike actually emerges.
That was good.
> One that people are
> quick to point out might be the most merciful option. The best
> Buffyverse shows have found a way to smoothly extract drama from out
> of the fun and tongue-in-cheek -- achieved here by the followup A/S
> dialogues. After entertaining us as a wisecracking ghost sidekick,
> Spoik turns things around with the line "what, think I could really
> stand hanging out with you and your lot, now and forever?
> Wisecracking ghost sidekick? No bloody thanks," and it's quite
> believable.
Yes... but it turns out to be an audience misdirect. I know they want to
keep the scheme secret for better double-cross drama, but what this episode
really could have used was seeing Angel and Spike getting past the trust
issue right then and working together to plot the double-cross.
Spike (to Angel): I trust him about as much as you trust me.
The implication of the ending is that Angel decided to trust Spike with his
life. That's a big deal. I would have liked to see Angel make that
decision. I'm not convinced how big a deal that was gets across.
> The closing scene leaves our second souled vampire in a kind of
> Limbo. Spike has a vision of himself on the brink of hell, and since
> he goes to Fred, I guess he seems to see it as something tangible
> rather than spiritual. Why's he going to Fred again?
The stated reason is that Fred is the "science queen" - the one who figures
things out. But that doesn't really work for me either. The way I take it
is that Spike's need is partly emotional support and Spike just relates to
the girls better than the guys. Well, maybe Andrew too. Heh. (Nope. No
gay theme here.)
> I don't quite
> get what the scene's going for, but Marsters sells it very well,
> making the viewer feel the desperate edge of the closing "help me" and
> feel patiently eager to see what the show does next. I know that some
> argue that Spike was "shoehorned in" to this series, but just based on
> this episode, it looks like he'll be a great fit.
Well, I'm glad it worked for you. Not so much for me. I was not turned off
or anything. I just didn't end up feeling that Spike really fit in yet.
I'm curious. How easily did you think Worf fit into DS9 when he was added?
> So...
> One-sentence summary: Much better.
> AOQ rating: Good
Just Decent for me.
OBS
MBangel10 (Melissa)
I have to admit, the voice over work was a bit on the shoddy side... I
didn't notice it on initial viewing, or even that much when I first got
the DVD but when I watched it last night it distracted the heck out of
me. I took it in stride and tried not to let it take away from the
episode too much, but yeah, Spike at times sounded like he was out in
left field somewhere instead of talking directly to Angel.
It reminds me of the voice over work in the Btvs episode "Gone" and that
was distracting as well.
Mike Zeares
I always liked the way Spike and Angel played off of each other, so I
wasn't really bothered by Spike's addition to the show. Angel was
never funnier than when acting like a pissy bitch, and no one brought
that out in him better than Spike.
I thought there was a disconnect between Harmony's "Blondy-Bear?"
reaction at the end of the first ep and her seemingly angry reaction
to Spike in this one.
My favorite part of this episode was the actor who played Hainsley. I
just really liked his voice and style.
"I'm his date." Sigh. I miss my dead gay show.
-- Mike Zeares
Elisi
wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
> ANGEL
> Season Five, Episode 2: "Just Rewards"
> (or "Spikey the homosexual friendly ghost!")
> Writers: David Fury and Ben Edlund; story by Fury
> Director: James A. Contner
> AOQ rating: Good
I'll be back later with actual thoughts, but for now I'll just go with
silly and do a quick run-through of how the various fandom groups
reacted to Spike being on the show (and you mentioned a lot of these
points! *is impressed*)
Spike fans: SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! [/incoherent joy]
Angel fans: Shirtless!Angel! Woohoo! [mutter: TWO YEARS we've been
waiting for this!] Oh and Petty!Angel! Yay!
Spuffy shippers: Why didn't they show the 'I love you'? Although he
*did* ask after her straight away! Now CALL HER!
Spangel shippers: Spike in Angel's bedroom! Spike saying he's Angel's
date! Lots and lots and lots of snark! *pop Champagne, write lots of
pr0n and already love S5 to infinity and beyond*
Spike/Fred shippers: We knew it! Spike needs someone *nice* who'll
*appreciate* him - not like that nasty Buffy! [Rest of fandom: Yeah,
whatever.]
Spike haters: Spike has ruined AtS! *sulk*
Other fans: Oh, OK. Spike's on the show now. Fair enough. I wonder
what sort of stories they'll do with him? We want more Harmony/We want
Lilah back/Doesn't Gunn look spiffy...
------
Anyway - if you liked the Spike/Angel interactions the you should love
the season. ;)
(Not that it's all S/A of course, but if you *disliked* them you'd
have a problem!)
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> have a problem!)
is s-a s-m?
meow arf meow - they are performing horrible experiments in space
major grubert is watching you - beware the bakalite
impeach the bastard - the airtight garage has you neo
Ken from Chicago
"Mike Zeares" <mze...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1170311745.9...@s48g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
James Marsters is great alone and reacting to other actors. The one downfall
of the episode is that it isolate Spike with Angel from the rest of the
characters--like Season 6 of BUFFY. Arb's complaint about the season debut
being expository and little personality, but "Just Rewards" is similar in
setting up Spike in the show, but Spike exudes personality.
Tho he was able to do because most of the rest of Avengers were cut out.
That was ashame because despite his rep, Spike (and JM) plays well with
others. We saw this time and again on BUFFY with Joyce, Giles, Willow, Tara,
Anya, even Xander (e.g., "Triangle", "Doomed", "Intervention", even "Into
The Woods" having a good scene with Riley).
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1170312857....@s48g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 31, 10:04 pm, "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com>
> wrote:
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>> threads.
>>
>> ANGEL
>> Season Five, Episode 2: "Just Rewards"
>> (or "Spikey the homosexual friendly ghost!")
>> Writers: David Fury and Ben Edlund; story by Fury
>> Director: James A. Contner
>
>> AOQ rating: Good
>
> I'll be back later with actual thoughts, but for now I'll just go with
> silly and do a quick run-through of how the various fandom groups
> reacted to Spike being on the show (and you mentioned a lot of these
> points! *is impressed*)
>
>
> Spike fans: SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! [/incoherent joy]
>
> Angel fans: Shirtless!Angel! Woohoo! [mutter: TWO YEARS we've been
> waiting for this!] Oh and Petty!Angel! Yay!
>
> Spuffy shippers: Why didn't they show the 'I love you'? Although he
> *did* ask after her straight away! Now CALL HER!
Phone call seems a might impersonal.
> Spangel shippers: Spike in Angel's bedroom! Spike saying he's Angel's
> date! Lots and lots and lots of snark! *pop Champagne, write lots of
> pr0n and already love S5 to infinity and beyond*
>
> Spike/Fred shippers: We knew it! Spike needs someone *nice* who'll
> *appreciate* him - not like that nasty Buffy! [Rest of fandom: Yeah,
> whatever.]
"Spred"?
> Spike haters: Spike has ruined AtS! *sulk*
It's not Spike's fault he's popular. And he didn't ruin the show. And even
if he had, blame the writers.
> Other fans: Oh, OK. Spike's on the show now. Fair enough. I wonder
> what sort of stories they'll do with him? We want more Harmony/We want
> Lilah back/Doesn't Gunn look spiffy...
> ------
>
> Anyway - if you liked the Spike/Angel interactions the you should love
> the season. ;)
>
> (Not that it's all S/A of course, but if you *disliked* them you'd
> have a problem!)
-- Ken from Chicago
Elisi
wrote:
> > Spuffy shippers: Why didn't they show the 'I love you'? Although he
> > *did* ask after her straight away! Now CALL HER!
>
> Phone call seems a might impersonal.
Well he can't leave LA... he could call, and then she'd come running
to get him, Willow in tow. (Willow could make him corporal *of
course*!)
> > Spike/Fred shippers: We knew it! Spike needs someone *nice* who'll
> > *appreciate* him - not like that nasty Buffy! [Rest of fandom: Yeah,
> > whatever.]
>
> "Spred"?
That's the one. I think a lot of them were former Spara shippers,
who'd been trying to find someone *nice* to pair Spike off with after
their first choice got killed off. (So she was a lesbian... don't ask
me how it would work, I just know that people shipped them!)
> > Spike haters: Spike has ruined AtS! *sulk*
>
> It's not Spike's fault he's popular. And he didn't ruin the show. And even
> if he had, blame the writers.
Indeed.
Elisi
> threads.
>
> ANGEL
> Season Five, Episode 2: "Just Rewards"
> (or "Spikey the homosexual friendly ghost!")
LMAO!
> The DVDs gave me back my "previouslies!" Well, this one, anyway.
> Hopefully it'll be a trend. Doesn't make up for all the years going
> without on R1, but better than nothing. I feel like the TV experience
> isn't quite complete without them, and I'm being totally serious.
Ove here in Europe they're standard - although I have to say that
watching late AtS S4 or BtVS S7 episodes can get kinda tedious when
you have 2 minutes or more of previouslies.
> The fiancée ("Mrs." Q.) thought this one was on the dull side too.
> I'm reconsidering the whole marriage thing.
It's the strangest thing, but some people don't have a sense of
humour... Ahem.
Anyway, tell her to stick with it. We *guarantee* that it'll be worth
it!
> The show is
> pretty blatant there: "you'd think that saving the sodding world would
> be enough to earn me a rest." Not in the Buffyverse.
Which is one reason we love Joss...
> Quite amused at all the things Angel didn't think were worth
> mentioning to his group. It would seem that he and Buffy have talked
> in the months since her series ended - presumably ran up the phone
> bill quite a bit, given the details that he now knows about, say,
> Captain Peroxide's living situation in early Season Seven. That'd be
> an interesting conversation to listen in on - mostly recaps, but I
> always want to know how people tell the stories, what they emphasize,
> what they leave out...
It's pretty well establised fanon that post-Chosen Buffy & Co drove
the bus to LA and stayed at the Hyperion for a few days, regrouping.
Which is also where Buffy told Angel about Spike. (Can you image?
Buffy crying on Angel's shoulder over Spike? No wonder he's so
hostile! *g* Also _he's_ just taken over Evil Inc, Spike died saving
the world... now who's the most heroic?)
> what they really should've done is have Spike not direct a single line
> of dialogue toward her all episode. Ah, well.
Aw, poor Harmony!
> That's the high-ish concept side of why the visit to the necromancer
> works - the more direct component is of course Spike's stream of
> constant disdain for all things Corporate Angel.
Re. those scenes, then the spoon bit was a shout-out Ben Edlund's
cartoon 'The Tick' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_tick) - be sure
to scroll down and check out the supporting characters!. His battle
cry is "Spoooooon!" which he decided upon while eating breakfast,
specifically the cereal "Drama Flakes".
(If you can get hold of it, do check it out. You can see why Ben
Edlund was hired by ATS!)
> Gay jokes are a token of modern-day buddy stories, and it looks like
> ATS won't be skimping there, between "he's my date" and having one
> vampire hang out in the other's bedroom. First time we've seen Angel
> shirtless in a few years, not counting the very brief scene in
> "Awakening" - guess he got in shape again. But was he really going to
> sleep in those pants?
"In my world, heroes bugger each other senseless."
Joss Whedon
> This is about the point where the episode starts to smoothly move into
> taking itself more seriously. There's Spike's apparent eagerness to
> try to kill Angel which gives us an act break, but the real
> transitional moment is Angel finding out about a way to get rid of
> him. That scene moves from the comedic pettiness of "yeah, yeah,
> mercy. I'm all for it. Just, hey, tell me how we do it," to the
> conflicted delivery on "I think I want to sleep on it" once a
> practical way to kill Spike actually emerges.
And right there is the eternal appeal of their relationship. They
don't _like_ each other, but... there's a lot of history.
> Knew that Spike was just taking
> advantage of the chance to take a swing at Angel, but liked it anyway.
"That was _you_ hitting me?" The look on Angel's face is just
priceless!
> The closing scene leaves our second souled vampire in a kind of
> Limbo. Spike has a vision of himself on the brink of hell, and since
> he goes to Fred, I guess he seems to see it as something tangible
> rather than spiritual.
Not a vision. Actually happening. Re-watch the scene in the lab when
he first disappears and comes back. The look on his face is... pretty
indescribable - like if you'd just been sucked into hell and then come
back.
> Why's he going to Fred again?
Well firstly because he's slipping into hell, and needs help. But as
she points out, Wesley should be the logical person. But - this is
Spike. _Of course_ he goes to Fred. He's laying himself open here, and
that's not an easy thing to do - and certainly not something he'd go
to Angel for (although he's the one he knows the best). No, for all
the slashy (sub)text, Spike connects much, much better with women than
with men - just watch him with Buffy, Dawn, Joyce, Willow, Anya... it
might have something to do with having once been William the poet,
mama's boy. He can talk to women in a way he can't with men. So he
goes to Fred for help - she's smart, but she's also kind and open and
far more likely to *care* than anyone else.
> I know that some
> argue that Spike was "shoehorned in" to this series, but just based on
> this episode, it looks like he'll be a great fit.
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Much better.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
Well that's encouraging. Speaking of shoehorning, here are a few
snippets from an essay I'm working on:
Some people say that Spike had no reason for being on AtS, except as a
tool for the executives to up the ratings. This never made sense to
me, and the more I think about it, the less sense it makes. Sure Spike
was part of the reason AtS got another season, but I cannot think of a
single character in the entire 'verse who'd be more suited to AtS in
every way. I will even go so far as to say that he makes *more* sense
on AtS than on BtVS. On Buffy he stuck around because he loved Buffy -
that was his connection (and an excellent one at that!). But without
that (in S4) it was hard to see where he fitted in.
But ATS is all about Angel, and Angel is all about family - where
would S2-4 be without Darla and Connor?
Anyway - in 'Home' a whole chapter of Angel's life comes to its close.
He lets go of Connor and his responsibility for him. And for around
three weeks he is free of any family worries... until Spike appears!
And Spike... Spike had Daddy issues to rival Connors:
"It's you! You're the reason my life sucks!"
Connor (I forget which episode - any in S4 would probably do)
"You! This is all your fault!"
Spike, 'Just Rewards'
To briefly quote romanyg's most excellent Spangel Manifesto http://
romanyg.livejournal.com/66075.html (SPOILERS!!!):
'Spike returns as the reluctant prodigal. He doesn't get the welcome,
the coffee cake, the fatted calf. The fatted calf will always belong
to Connor. Of course, none of them now have a clue as to Connor. Spike
just knows that the calf is withheld.'
And Spike is rather resentful of that to say the least...
Because the thing is - Spike is the anti-Connor. Angel's 'crime' as
concerns Connor was losing him. He was stolen and used and abused
throughout his 18 years - by Holtz, by Evil!Cordy, by Jasmine. _He_
blames Angel, and _Angel_ blames Angel:
Angel: "I mean, you were stuck in a - hell dimension. - Connor - I'm
so sorry. I tried to get you back. I did. I tried to come after you. I
would have done anything. I just... I just... I couldn't find a way
in."
Connor: "I found a way out."
'Tomorrow'
Connor: "You tried to love me. At least I think you did."
Angel: "I still do."
Connor: "But not enough to hang on, dad. You let him take me. You let
him get me. You let him get me."
'Home'
But Spike... Spike was to a great extent Angelus's creation. For 18
years (and OMG the parallels! This is fabulous!) he was under
Angelus's tutelage (all quotes from 'School Hard'):
Spike: "You were my sire, man. My Yoda!"
And Angel acknowledges this:
Angel: "I taught you to always guard your perimeter. Tsk, tsk, tsk.
You should have someone out there."
Spike: "I did. I'm surrounded by idiots."
He also knows what kind of monster he created:
Giles: "Well, he can't be any worse than any other creature you've
faced."
Angel: "He's worse. Once he starts something he doesn't stop until
everything in his path is dead."
Of course Spike didn't need Angel to 'fix' him - Spike's path was the
opposite. In 'Awakening' we saw Angel dream that Connor would follow
in his footsteps:
Connor: Is this what it feels like, being a champion?
Angel (smiles): Pretty much.
Angel had to let go of all those dreams and gave Connor a normal
life... instead he gets *Spike* as the one to go the Champion route
(right career, wrong son):
"From Drusilla's affections to Buffy's, from fighting on the side of
good to gaining a soul, Spike, since Day One, has followed in
"Daddy's" footsteps. And has resented the hell out of it."
kita0610
So we have lots and lots of resentment on _both_sides... A classic
case of 'the grass is greener on the other side'. And I love it -
Spike is like a mirror or shadow of Angel, and now that he's so
compromised (not really the hero saving damsels in distress, is he?)
Spike is a fabulous contrast.
Anyway, that's probably enough for now, I have housework to do...
(sigh)
Rowan Hawthorn
> On Feb 1, 8:48 am, "Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1b_nos...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>>> Spuffy shippers: Why didn't they show the 'I love you'? Although he
>>> *did* ask after her straight away! Now CALL HER!
>> Phone call seems a might impersonal.
>
> Well he can't leave LA... he could call, and then she'd come running
> to get him, Willow in tow. (Willow could make him corporal *of
> course*!)
>
>>> Spike/Fred shippers: We knew it! Spike needs someone *nice* who'll
>>> *appreciate* him - not like that nasty Buffy! [Rest of fandom: Yeah,
>>> whatever.]
>> "Spred"?
>
> That's the one. I think a lot of them were former Spara shippers,
> who'd been trying to find someone *nice* to pair Spike off with after
> their first choice got killed off. (So she was a lesbian... don't ask
> me how it would work, I just know that people shipped them!)
>
That's not much of an obstacle to a guy. Most of us are lesbians, too
(and one of Riley's saving graces was that even *he* had apparently
heard that old gag...)
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Elisi
> It's probably not important, but I had the same reaction to the Chosen
> flashback that I had to Angel's initial appearance in The Yoko Factor. It
> looked wrong. It didn't look like AtS. Again I was struck by how different
> the two series had become even at such a low level.
Oh but it is important. That moment was Spike being the Big. Damn.
Hero. Doing what Angel never did... sacrificing his life to save the
world. Compared to Angel who 'ended world peace', altered all of his
friends' memories and took over W&H it jars terribly... as it should.
AtS deals in greys - Angel was never the shining white knight, but the
compromised, tormented figure in the darkness. Spike is a big torch
shining where Angel doesn't want it to...
> I'm noticing the various comments about gay undertones in AtS. They may be
> right, but I personally never noticed it except in a pretty standard context
> of low level hetero discomfort with any such suggestion.
To quote Romanyg, who started out in the S/X camp:
"And funny that I brought the Rice-pires up, because what differs from
Riceverse and Jossverse, besides the ability to occasionally laugh at
themselves, is the vampire's ability to deliver. No homoerotic
celibacy here, folks. And once I was no longer slash-blind and I could
get my slashy little hands on the DVDs? I couldn't really see the
Spike/Xander. Not if I viewed them with an objective eye. But the A/S?
Joss was jumping up and down with the semaphore flags on that one. And
this was before AtS S5 aired."
As for AtS pre-S5, then there are a ton of Angel/Wesley shippers out
there f.ex., but although I can see where they're coming from, that
never worked for me. But A/S... semaphore flags!
> Yes... but it turns out to be an audience misdirect. I know they want to
> keep the scheme secret for better double-cross drama, but what this episode
> really could have used was seeing Angel and Spike getting past the trust
> issue right then and working together to plot the double-cross.
>
> Spike (to Angel): I trust him about as much as you trust me.
>
> The implication of the ending is that Angel decided to trust Spike with his
> life. That's a big deal. I would have liked to see Angel make that
> decision. I'm not convinced how big a deal that was gets across.
Hmmm. I can see what you're saying, but I think that this is where
having lived with each other for 20 years without killing each other
comes in. There's a lot to them - oh! They're like onions! :)
> Well, I'm glad it worked for you. Not so much for me. I was not turned off
> or anything. I just didn't end up feeling that Spike really fit in yet.
I don't think *Spike* feels like he's fitting in yet. He's deeply
uncomfortable with everything and everyone. It's the chip all over
again, but worse. (Although at least the AI team doesn't hate him,
like the Scoobies did... he asks Fred for help, and she is concerned
and worried - very unlike Buffy in 'Pangs'.)
Elisi
> Yes... but it turns out to be an audience misdirect. I know they want to
> keep the scheme secret for better double-cross drama, but what this episode
> really could have used was seeing Angel and Spike getting past the trust
> issue right then and working together to plot the double-cross.
>
> Spike (to Angel): I trust him about as much as you trust me.
>
> The implication of the ending is that Angel decided to trust Spike with his
> life. That's a big deal. I would have liked to see Angel make that
> decision. I'm not convinced how big a deal that was gets across.
Actually it wasn't all that big a deal. It comes down to something
very simple: They're family. (I could go on about this at length - if
you'd like me to, just say the word.)
But in a nutshell: If these two were to try to kill each other at this
point, it'd be along the lines laid out by everyone's favourite
Captain (excepting of course Captains Jack Harkness and Sparrow,
because they're also favourites):
"So let me explain this to you once: If I ever kill you, you'll be
awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed."
One Bit Shy
I meant he doesn't fit into the TV series yet. Obviously he doesn't fit in
with Angel and W&H yet.
OBS
One Bit Shy
I understand what you're saying there, but I don't see the episode selling
it. They approach showing that kind of intimate connection in the bedroom.
(non-gay of course. <g>) But it's cut off before completion. Especially
Angel's side.
I enjoy extrapolating from the past as much as anybody, but it would really
help the episode I think if they had done something more to show the
connection in those terms. Their history has diverged a lot too after all.
There's no automatic guarantee that it will play out this way now. Except
for the meta one of Spike being a series regular. But that makes showing it
even more important since it's critical for Spike to be a believable part of
the show.
Gurl'yy qb n sne orggre wbo bs guvf n pbhcyr bs rcvfbqrf sebz abj va gurve
uryy naq cbrgel gnyx.
OBS
Elisi
> "Elisi" <elis...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Well I think the two are linked, so it doesn't bother me in the least.
Scythe Matters
> The DVDs gave me back my "previouslies!" Well, this one, anyway.
> Hopefully it'll be a trend. Doesn't make up for all the years going
> without on R1, but better than nothing. I feel like the TV experience
> isn't quite complete without them, and I'm being totally serious.
I hate their absence as well. Even aside from "The Gift," which just
isn't the same without them.
> The fiancée ("Mrs." Q.) thought this one was on the dull side too.
> I'm reconsidering the whole marriage thing.
She was right. You should listen to her.
> Quite amused at all the things Angel didn't think were worth
> mentioning to his group.
And his group doesn't seem very happy about it, either:
FRED
What did he mean, "saving the world"?
ANGEL
Oh, that — well — Buffy did most of the work. Well, he helped, but—
---
FRED
E-excuse me?
WESLEY
Did — did you just say — Spike has a soul? You never said.
ANGEL
Didn't seem worth mentioning, you know.
GUNN
Seems to be a lot of that.
This is meta, of course, because Angel's hiding something far, far
bigger from them. He gets to be childishly defensive here, but it's all
a diversion from the *real* secret he's keeping.
And though it's also related to the above point, just file this
conversation away in your memory:
WESLEY
You can't take Hainsley on yourself.
ANGEL
I'm not gonna risk him turning somebody else into chowder.
WESLEY
Angel, you have a multi-billion dollar company at your disposal with
armed and trained personnel.
ANGEL
They cramp my style.
WESLEY
Your style's not gonna cut it with a necromancer. We should probably
avoid an eye-for-an-eye escalation here.
> In the meantime, there's nothing to do but have Spike hang around
> haunting Angel and let the others react. This is fun breezy stuff
It's a stupid rehash of an entire season (Buffy season four), with
elements from season five (the vampire who won't go away) as well.
Spike's lines are generally better than they were then, but that's the
extent of it.
> It basically requires that the viewer appreciate the interactions
> between the two characters, which I do, since that's mostly what the
> early parts come down to.
The Spike/Angel interaction starts to get tiresome before the end of the
episode, then redeems itself a bit at the end. But if this is the extent
of it, that's fine. If the show turns into The Odd Couple, however, it's
going to be pretty awful. And it sure seems like that's where it's going.
> Angel is the one who takes the "she's not mine to 'keep'" tack.
I think Angel's conflicted, especially since Cordy's out of the picture.
Spike, however, doesn't feel this way: he *does* feel she's "his to
keep" in a sense. And that, presumably, is him grasping for something to
hold on to, as Angel was just last episode. Spike wouldn't have felt
quite that way at the end of B7. The sniping jealousy, of course, was
present in both Angel and Spike in full measure back in "Chosen," but
now it's more than whiny comic relief, it's the entirety of their
interaction. Which, again, is going to get really dull really fast, if
it continues.
> Meanwhile, Harmony hangs around just long enough to entertain and
> quickly fades out of the episode once it starts getting to the point -
> what they really should've done is have Spike not direct a single line
> of dialogue toward her all episode. Ah, well. Also I'd have had her
> be sure to back away when first leaving the room.
!!! AoQ making suggestions on comedy. And for our next trick, I'll write
a short paragraph on the mindless enjoyment of action movies.
> Moving on, there's
> a bit of a reversed hero-villain vibe in that we have the bad guy able
> to toss the good guy around in a "fair" mano-a-telekentico fight, and
> the hero resorting to slimy legal maneuvering to keep him down.
Now we're getting to the meat of why we needed to see certain things in
the previous episode.
1) We saw Angel's alley patrol, and how that ended. W&H isn't a tool
that Angel can use, it's the hand that controls him...and he's the tool
(something Spike would certainly agree with). W&H removed his ability to
help in this fashion. So he's forced to fight in a different way.
2) Enter Gunn, newly-minted lawyer. We have to see how effective he is,
and in fact how he's the *most* effective member of the group, to
understand that he's now the tool by which Angel will have to attempt to
solve many of his problems. Of course, since the Senior Partners' overt
interest in Gunn (as their own tool) has been made so spectacularly
clear, I'm not sure that Angel coming to rely on him more and more is a
good thing. Further, I'm not sure that it's a good thing for Gunn to
experience unmitigated success in his chosen field. There might be bad
consequences from that.
> That's the high-ish concept side of why the visit to the necromancer
> works - the more direct component is of course Spike's stream of
> constant disdain for all things Corporate Angel.
It's definitely getting tiresome here.
On the upside, Spike gets to speak some truths that needed to be said
out loud...not because we needed to hear them, but because we needed to
hear Angel's justifications. (Which, it always must be remembered, are
predicated on a lie; nothing he can or will say is the actual reason
he's at W&H right now.)
SPIKE
I'm not the prat here. I know you, Angel. What do you think you're
doing? Made some devil's bargain to take over this company. Thought
you'd use it to fight the evil of the world from inside the belly of the
beast. Trouble is you're too busy fighting to see you and yours are
getting digested.
ANGEL
Not gonna happen.
SPIKE
Oh, you think you're in control here? Guess again, mate. You're no more
in control than I am.
---
SPIKE
Look at you. This is what you do now? Delegate the dirty work to
spineless, low-level flunkies. The mighty hero reduced to a bloody
bureaucrat. If a certain slayer could see you now [...]
---
SPIKE
Also heard they represent the worst evil in the universe.
ANGEL
It did, among other things, but now I'm in charge.
SPIKE
Are you now?
> This is about the point where the episode starts to smoothly move into
> taking itself more seriously. There's Spike's apparent eagerness to
> try to kill Angel which gives us an act break, but the real
> transitional moment is Angel finding out about a way to get rid of
> him. That scene moves from the comedic pettiness of "yeah, yeah,
> mercy. I'm all for it. Just, hey, tell me how we do it," to the
> conflicted delivery on "I think I want to sleep on it" once a
> practical way to kill Spike actually emerges.
Remember that the "mercy" quip is a callback to the previous episode.
The sequence is nicely complex, from both characters.
Angel -- On the surface, Angel wants Spike gone. When he actually thinks
about it, however, it's not quite so simple, and I doubt he'd have been
ready to act on it come morning. When Spike asks him to help kill his
ghost, Angel does...but he's not blithe about it, though he plays it
that way on the surface (and once again I'm pleasantly surprised that,
almost beneath notice, Boreanaz somehow learned how to act). He's doing
it for Spike, not himself. And he's quite willing to do the "buddy
movie" thing with Spike, despite his expressed annoyance.
Of course, a portion of Angel's irritation is Buffy-related. He's still
petulant about that (partially due to Spike himself, and partially due
to the fact that he can't have her in general). But a greater portion
is, I think, for show. Notice how much less confrontational he is when
it's just the two of them. It's worth wondering why that is. (It's not
the homoerotic subtext that a certain subset of fans want to see, though
it plays right into their fantasies.) But more on this point in a moment.
Spike -- All episode he lashes out, flailing for some sort of meaning,
and finding it almost exclusively in picking on Angel. But it's largely
for show, as anyone with long familiarity with his character can almost
instantly see. Sure, he wants to leave. Sure, he wants to go see Buffy.
Sure, he thinks Angel's gone off the deep end. But everything's a mixed
message, and almost every argument he makes manages to contradict
something else he says. For example:
SPIKE
Where — where is [Buffy]?
ANGEL
Europe, last I heard from her.
SPIKE
Wanna see her... Wanna talk to her.
ANGEL
That's gonna be tough.
SPIKE
You can't keep her from me.
ANGEL
She's not mine to keep... or yours.
SPIKE
Says you. You got no idea what we had.
ANGEL
You never had her.
SPIKE
More than you, you poncy—
(then)
SPIKE
You heard me! You left town in the nick of time, didn't you, before the
death and mayhem? Abandoned the woman you claimed to love.
ANGEL
She made the call. Wasn't my choice.
(and)
FRED
Also, ghosts generally absorb light and heat energy making the area
around them a few degrees cooler. Spike's radiating heat.
SPIKE
Think I'm hot, do you?
---
SPIKE
Can't a man die in peace without some high almighty deciding it's not
his time. Let's have a little more fun with him, eh? You think that
saving the sodding world would be enough to earn me a rest. You'd think—
(and)
SPIKE
They're the lucky ones, aren't they? It's over for them. They've
shuffled off, cleanly, the one time. Nobody's shoving them back into the
stinking world against their will.
(then)
SPIKE
This haunting-you-till- the-end-of-time idea of yours is starting to
sound appealing. I could drive you completely starkers, right out of
your gourd. Yeah, and you wouldn't be able to do a sodding thing about
it. Fancy a road trip. This'll be fun, eh? You and me together again.
So...where are we off to?
(then)
SPIKE
Don't wanna go, but it's like... It's like the ground underneath me
is... splitting open and my legs are... straddling both sides of this
bloody big chasm. It's getting wider, pulling me in.
FRED
Is that... is that what's happening when you keep vanishing?
SPIKE
I know what's down there — where it's trying to take me — and it's not
the place heroes go. Not by a bloody long shot. It's the other one. Full
of fire and torment. And it's happening. And I'm terrified. Help me?
---
SPIKE
Gladly. Cruel enough punishment being stuck here as a spook while you
play "Chairman of the Boring." But hell if I'm gonna spend my afterlife
in your stinking city. Get stuffed.
(then)
SPIKE
You're my problem. You got it too good. You're king of a 30-floor
castle, with all the cars, comfort, power, and glory you could ever
want, and here I save the world, throw myself onto the proverbial hand
grenade for love, honor, and all the right reasons, and what do I get?
Bloody well toasted and ghosted is what I get, isn't it? It's not fair.
---
So given all this, what's the real source of conflict? As usual, it's
spelled out in the episode:
SPIKE
And this, bloody hell, wasn't mine. I'm not you. I don't give a piss
about atonement or destiny.
---
ANGEL
You asked for a soul. I didn't! It almost killed me. I spent a hundred
years trying to come to terms with infinite remorse. You spent 3 weeks
moaning in a basement, and then you were fine! What's fair about that?!
*That's* the conflict. And it's a good one, because they both have valid
points. Angel's somewhat trapped by the true happiness clause of his
curse, but nothing is forcing him to live in unending misery (other than
the fact that he keeps failing at things) and guilt. And Spike *was*
remorseful, to an extent, not that long ago. Now everything's just
peachy? Maybe that's something he should address, if his goal is really
to be the sort of man that Buffy deserves.
> After entertaining us as a wisecracking ghost sidekick,
> Spoik turns things around with the line "what, think I could really
> stand hanging out with you and your lot, now and forever?
> Wisecracking ghost sidekick? No bloody thanks," and it's quite
> believable.
And yet, that's what the episode gives us...a wisecracking ghost
sidekick. A wisecracking Spike that can't physically interact with his
environment...*so* much different from the wisecracking spike that
couldn't (in the case of humans) or wouldn't (in the case of demons, at
least for part of the season) interact with his environment back in B4.
Please, spare us.
> After that, the rest of "Just Rewards" is a series of double-crosses.
Not really a double-cross if you know how M.E. writes.
SPIKE
I can't live like this, Angel. Being useless. Being nothing. I want it
to end.
It's like the soul quest (not that I want to re-energize that stupid
debate): the surface read is that he wants to end his life, but if you
actually read the line, he's just as likely to be saying he wants "being
useless" to end. Which is what he's actually saying. Like you, I briefly
entertained the notion that he *was* going to betray Angel, and quickly
realized that if he did, I'd know for sure the writers were on crack.
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
As will so often be the case, Harmony rules:
HARMONY
And you can't talk to me like that. We're not going out anymore.
---
HARMONY
Oh...my...God! You and the slayer actually... I mean, I know you had
that twisted obsession with her, but...yecch. That's just... yecch. I...
yecch!
---
ANGEL
I'm meeting with Grox'lars?! They eat babies!
HARMONY
Just their heads.
---
HARMONY
Preaching to the horse's mouth.
> Why's he going to Fred again? I don't quite
> get what the scene's going for, but Marsters sells it very well
Well, he and Wesley have a history, sort of. He and Fred don't. So that
could be one reason. Another may be that he finds her cute ("think I'm
hot, do you?") Another may be that, given his experiences with the
Initiative, he's more inclined to embrace scientific solutions to
mystical problems than another person would be. I think Marsters, as he
does so well, introduces a very subtle element of flirting into their
encounters...not so much to make it obvious or even necessary, but just
enough to make it subtextual if the viewer wants it to be there. And
Acker responds to it reasonably well.
But as for the text, it's pretty simple. Spike's going to hell, and
doesn't feel he deserves it. All the quipping and Angel-baiting is well
and good, but he's running out of time. It doesn't make much sense that
he's not going to Wesley as well, but it does make sense that he'd be
pushing Fred (or anyone that could help) for a solution.
> I know that some
> argue that Spike was "shoehorned in" to this series, but just based on
> this episode, it looks like he'll be a great fit.
The problem isn't the shoehorning, it's that it becomes The Spike Show.
This episode pretty much has to be that, and he'll have to get his
episodes over the course of the season (if he survives that long), but
it's an ensemble cast, almost all of whom have compelling stories of
their own that are completely unrelated to Spike. The trick is
integrating him into the ensemble without having him be the focus of
every scene. And I'm not sure M.E. has always been good at that. We'll
see, I guess.
So, now to the other big issue: the amulet. Two parts here.
WESLEY
The amulet's Wolfram & Hart's property. It's bound to this place, and
since Spike's connected to it...
But Spike's bound to the amulet, not to the W&H campus. He can get as
far as the city limits, and the amulet can be taken out of the building.
So why does Spike need to hang around W&H at all? Well, the need for
them to solve his problem is the big one (though there's no reason he
couldn't just go to a different warlock, or scientist, or whatever), but
all the accessory stuff -- following Angel around, the endless quipping,
etc. -- is most certainly not necessary. Spike could take the amulet,
leave the building, and have his own life. He won't, because we need to
see many, many more hours of The Odd Undead Couple because it's just so
gosh-darn amusing, but he could. It's a nagging issue, and it's not
likely to go away.
The other, much more interesting, discussion is over the introduction of
the shiny bauble itself:
ANGEL
Could have been me, Wes. Was supposed to be me.
WESLEY
You're not feeling guilty?
ANGEL
Wolfram & Hart gave me the amulet. They must have expected me to use it.
And they had to have known it would've done to me what it did to Spike, so—
WESLEY
Why bother handing you the keys to the kingdom?
ANGEL
Doesn't make sense. What are the senior partners playing at?
WESLEY
Maybe there's dissent in their ranks, or maybe there's another player in
the game they — and we don't know anything about. Then again, maybe they
got exactly what they were after.
ANGEL
Spike.
WESLEY
He may be the one they—
There's a lot here to digest and ponder.
If W&H intended for Angel to use the amulet, then they intended him to
die. (And be resurrected as a ghost? Maybe, but that's not necessarily
implied.) But that contradicts what they just did for/to him, plus it
contradicts all the "we don't want him dead, we want him dark" buildup
of the rest of the series. We can probably imagine some byzantine plot
whereby his death, resurrection as a ghost, and some future plot point
gets him to the dark place were W&H wants him, but on a basic level this
sequence of events doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
So who was supposed to use the amulet? Buffy? Remember that Angel (and
then Buffy herself) made the choice that she wasn't going to wear it,
but the description of its wearer could have applied to her. Was W&H
doing some sort of side business and trying to off the Slayer? Were they
in cahoots with the First? Again, this requires a lot of speculation to
make it work.
So then: Spike. The Senior Partners can't possibly have thought that
Angel would give the amulet to Spike, though they might have guessed
that Buffy would (after not letting Angel stay and use it). Again, this
*could* be their plan, but it requires the SP to have a very, very
refined knowledge of our characters' thoughts and emotions. Angel was
just as likely to insist on wearing the amulet once he knew that Buffy
intended to give it to Spike.
None of those three scenarios are all that satisfying, frankly.
Thankfully, Wesley provides some speculative outs. Let's see where those
lead.
Is there dissent among the SP? We know dissent at that level is possible
(Jasmine, previous interactions with the PtB, and among a slightly
different set of higher beings, Glory vs. her former cronies). It's an
intriguing possibility, and of course mostly so because it provides a
potential opening for Angel to work against them. Of course, this is the
purest speculation at this point, because we've got zero evidence either
way.
Another player? Possibly, but Lilah gave the amulet to Angel, and there
was never even the slightest hint that she was compromised. She was dead
and theoretically under the full control of the SP...she could hardly
have offered W&H if she wasn't...and the amulet came from the W&H files.
So if there's another player, they didn't introduce the amulet, and thus
can't be responsible for its effects. (*Unless* -- and this is an
interesting possibility -- this is Sahjahn, The Sequel. Another player
could have introduced the file and amulet into W&H's archives, covering
their tracks and leaving the SP (via Lilah) to deliver it to Angel, with
the SP believing it was actually a "gesture of good will" (that is: bait
for the trap, because it's impossible to imagine the SP doing anything
"good" in the traditional sense). But again, this is so speculative it's
almost not worth considering.
Finally, Wesley dangles the most interesting possibility of all...and
since it's interrupted before it can be pursued to its conclusion, the
usual interpretation would be that it's the correct one. Plus, it has
the benefit of Angel obviously believing it. Was this all designed to
"acquire" Spike for the SP? To what end? Is the goal just to annoy and
distract Angel? Is it to somehow destroy Angel? Is it to send Spike to
hell? Why the sudden interest in Spike, then? They've only ever been
interested in Angel up to this point. So whatever it is they're
interested in, it must be something that he shares with Angel.
And *that* is the most interesting speculation of all, because it puts
all sorts of issues on the table. If the key is the soul, what does that
mean for Angel's destiny? What does it mean for Angel's sense of self?
(And, for that matter, Spike's?) Doesn't the Angel/Spike conflict -- the
heart of it, not the window-dressing -- lead to this conclusion?
There's just too much we don't know right now. And here's one more thing
we don't know: how the amulet got back to W&H. We could assume the SP
did it, but why use an envelope and mail it back? Couldn't the SP just
drag Spike back by themselves? They just arranged for a complete reality
change in eliminating Connor from everyone's memory; certainly releasing
ghost Spike from the amulet wasn't beyond them. So maybe it was the SP
giving it but another player returning it. Or maybe dissension in the
ranks. Or maybe another player behind both actions. Or maybe it's all
the SP, but they missed Angel and hit Spike. Or maybe the target's Spike.
It's going to be interesting to see if they explain this or not.
> One-sentence summary: Much better.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
Decent. Some reasonably good material dragged down by the sinking
feeling that we've just seen the premiere of The Spike'n'Angel Wacky
Comedy Hour. I'd give the plot itself a medium-low good, but the
implications for what we're going to see a very, very low decent.
Arbitrar Of Quality
wrote:
> A lot of the "Spike's still evil" faction used this conversation with
> Angel as a selling point to the dark side. Once he said that he didn't
> trust Hainsley any more than he did Angel... then that must have really
> meant that if he could've trusted him, then Spike would have went for it
> and double crossed Angel without blinking.
Um... what? The "Spike's still evil" faction seem to have been living
in denial. You don't need to like a character, but seeing what's
actually conveyed on screen is kinda expected where I come from.
> I was in full on panic mode, even though I knew he was second in the
> credits....
Now I feel a little better about the gullibility.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> OTOH why it doesn't work is the absurdity of Angel and Spike being the team
> to take on a necromancer, with power over the dead. Wes warns him, but maybe
> puts too much emphasis on him being a CEO as opposed to the more telling
> point of him being a vampire.
Yeah, a touch of idiot plotting. Didn't occur to me before, which
makes it feel mor eforgivable.
> Liked the butler though. Although maybe Hainsley shouldn't have been so
> cheap as to combine the positions of butler and hired killer. There are few
> enough that can do either job to a high level of professionalism, the number
> who can do both must be vanishingly small.
A good butler should always be capable of doing it.
> Definitely not better than Conviction for me. AtS 5 is taking a brief break
> while the shoehorning is in progress. All the same, it is the to credit of
> the season that one of its weakest episodes is still watchable, and often
> enjoyable. For me its Decent, the 68th best AtS episode, 21st best in season
> 5.
Compared to what we've been hearing recently from you, this is
practically gushing enthusiasm.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1170281088....@a75g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> > One that people are
> > quick to point out might be the most merciful option. The best
> > Buffyverse shows have found a way to smoothly extract drama from out
> > of the fun and tongue-in-cheek -- achieved here by the followup A/S
> > dialogues. After entertaining us as a wisecracking ghost sidekick,
> > Spoik turns things around with the line "what, think I could really
> > stand hanging out with you and your lot, now and forever?
> > Wisecracking ghost sidekick? No bloody thanks," and it's quite
> > believable.
>
> Yes... but it turns out to be an audience misdirect. I know they want to
> keep the scheme secret for better double-cross drama, but what this episode
> really could have used was seeing Angel and Spike getting past the trust
> issue right then and working together to plot the double-cross.
>
> The implication of the ending is that Angel decided to trust Spike with his
> life. That's a big deal. I would have liked to see Angel make that
> decision. I'm not convinced how big a deal that was gets across.
I can see what you're saying, and it's valid, but I just don't feel it
very strongly. The episode chose to go the route of a brisk action/
surprise-oriented second half rather than get bogged down in too much
introspection. One could make the case that the latter would've
ultimately been more rewarding, but it could also have easily come off
as turgid.
> I'm curious. How easily did you think Worf fit into DS9 when he was added?
Hmmm. Not a simple answer, because DS9 itself underwent a whole bunch
of tangentially Worf-associated changes in terms of feel at the same
time as he was added. There was the sudden shift to the Klingon war
story, which then went pretty much ignored for much of Season Four.
S4 had some of the series's best stand-alones ("Hard Time" is the only
Trek episode that makes me cry), but little discernable direction.
The show was in one of its many transitions, and hit its peak (IMHO)
after it learned to combine the dark feel of S4 with the plot elements
and richness of long-term storytelling hinted at in the earlier
seasons. So although there's something of a division, there are many
reasons for it not related to the presence or absence of that
particular character.
One thing that was always clear is that the show's writers (and
Michael Dorn) wanted him to be a member of the ensemble, not the new
undisputed #1 or #2 character. After being in practically every scene
in his debut, he got something like three lines in the next episode,
and didn't get another major vehicle for a few months. He's not my
favorite character but I generally liked him okay. The romances with
the Dax Twins I can take or leave, no strong feelings.
It's been said that the TNG staff loved beating up Worf, while the DS9
writers realized that what people wanted to see was Worf being the one
kicking ass. I can see that. The character stood out much more in
the early days of _The Next Generation_, though, surrounded by all the
'80s PC crowd. Ironically, although he seemed more at home in a
grimmer, war-oriented series, it caused him to fade more readily into
the background.
Long story short, Worf fit adequately well with DS9 and I grew to
think of him more as a DS9 character than a TNG one.
-AOQ
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
> ANGEL
> Season Five, Episode 2: "Just Rewards"
> (or "Spikey the homosexual friendly ghost!")
> Writers: David Fury and Ben Edlund; story by Fury
> Director: James A. Contner
.
> The DVDs gave me back my "previouslies!" Well, this one, anyway.
> Hopefully it'll be a trend. Doesn't make up for all the years going
> without on R1, but better than nothing. I feel like the TV experience
> isn't quite complete without them, and I'm being totally serious.
I used to point to the extreme length of some of BtVS and AtS's
"previouslies" as evidence of how much more complex and sophisticated they
were compared to your average TV show. The archetypal Buffyverse
"previously" would include something from every season of the show and
something from the other show too. Since Fox was absolutely dead-set
against including them at the beginning of the episodes, I wish they had
thought of putting them in as extras, the way HBO has with some of its
shows on DVD.
> As with so many others, he had what could have been a satisfying
> ending to his arc, but it's not going to be that easy. The show is
> pretty blatant there: "you'd think that saving the sodding world would
> be enough to earn me a rest." Not in the Buffyverse.
Yet another example of them basing a story on what happens *after* the
heroic ending, as seen most notably in When She Was Bad and the whole of
BtVS season 6. I wonder if Spike will spot the parallels between his
situation and Buffy's after she was brought back.
> Quite amused at all the things Angel didn't think were worth
> mentioning to his group. It would seem that he and Buffy have talked
> in the months since her series ended - presumably ran up the phone
> bill quite a bit, given the details that he now knows about, say,
> Captain Peroxide's living situation in early Season Seven.
I have to wonder if Angel mainly talked to Giles or Willow or Faith,
rather than Buffy herself. I know, that's not nearly as fun. But from
Angel's attitude I tend to think that his relationship with Buffy, which
was left up in the air in Chosen, has not moved an inch since then.
Either Angel didn't talk to Buffy much, or they somehow managed to keep it
all business.
> In the meantime, there's nothing to do but have Spike hang around
> haunting Angel and let the others react. This is fun breezy stuff,
> with the actors having a good time generally not liking each other.
It is pretty amusing. It seems that Spike is still a vampire with a soul.
(How does that work in a ghost?) And we see something else about Spike:
He's really kind of an asshole, isn't he?
Okay, that was mostly flamebait. But still, what else can you say about a
guy who, when he realizes he's incorporeal and stuck in the neighborhood,
can't think of any better way to spend his unlife than tormenting Angel?
"This haunting-you-till-the-end-of-time idea of yours is starting to sound
appealing. I could drive you completely starkers, right out of your gourd.
Yeah, and you wouldn't be able to do a sodding thing about it."
Fortunately (for us; it might not make much difference to Angel), we soon
see that Spike has more layers to him than that. And Spike himself
realizes that tormenting Angel is not enough to make for a satisfying
existence, as in the "wisecracking ghost sidekick" line. But whether he's
really an asshole or just feels compelled to act like one sometimes,
Spike's entertaining to watch. But the best part for me is not the
quipping, it's the sense we get of everything he and Angel have in common.
Whoever said they're family was right. However much they may hate each
other, they have a connection that can't simply be ignored.
It's a lot easier to make exposition sound natural if you can slip it in
when two characters are arguing.
> That's the high-ish concept side of why the visit to the necromancer
> works - the more direct component is of course Spike's stream of
> constant disdain for all things Corporate Angel.
The necromancer himself is good too. I really liked the actor's froglike
looks and surprisingly blunt, down-to-earth attitude. And his show room
was nice and creepy.
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
-The spoon thing. (And Spike's reaction. He's *offended* that Angel used
such an unheroic weapon to take out the butler.)
-"Your man Novac. Guess he's been -- what do you call it? Downsized."
I also really liked Angel's complaint about Spike and his soul. "You
asked for a soul. I didn't! It almost killed me. I spent a hundred years
trying to come to terms with infinite remorse. You spent 3 weeks moaning
in a basement, and then you were fine! What's fair about that?" That
echoes some of my own thoughts about Spike in Buffy season 7.
> The closing scene leaves our second souled vampire in a kind of
> Limbo. Spike has a vision of himself on the brink of hell, and since
> he goes to Fred, I guess he seems to see it as something tangible
> rather than spiritual. Why's he going to Fred again? I don't quite
> get what the scene's going for,
He wants her to look for a way to pull him back from that brink, of
course. Why Fred? Some people have pointed out that Spike relates better
to female characters, which is true. But I'd also point out the reverse
of that coin, that Spike doesn't get along with other males. He certainly
doesn't want to admit any vulnerability to other males, let alone ask them
for help. This is a natural part of his tough-guy, cock-of-the-walk,
I'm-dominant-but-I'm-also-too-cool-to-be-part-of-the-group attitude.
Will that change? Can it?
> One-sentence summary: Much better.
>
> AOQ rating: Good
It's enjoyable, but not significantly better than Conviction. I'd give it
the same rating, a borderline Decent/Good.
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
MBangel10 (Melissa)
> On Jan 31, 6:02 pm, "MBangel10 (Melissa)" <mbange...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>> A lot of the "Spike's still evil" faction used this conversation with
>> Angel as a selling point to the dark side. Once he said that he didn't
>> trust Hainsley any more than he did Angel... then that must have really
>> meant that if he could've trusted him, then Spike would have went for it
>> and double crossed Angel without blinking.
>
> Um... what? The "Spike's still evil" faction seem to have been living
> in denial. You don't need to like a character, but seeing what's
> actually conveyed on screen is kinda expected where I come from.
I actually sort of miss that faction of the fandom. I found their
illogical reasoning very amusing, most of the time.
MBangel10 (Melissa)
> "MBangel10 (Melissa)" <mban...@comcast.net> wrote in
> news:QtCdnVeKz6uSs1zY...@comcast.com:
>
>> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
>>> review threads.
>>>
>>>
>>> ANGEL
>>> Season Five, Episode 2: "Just Rewards"
>>> (or "Spikey the homosexual friendly ghost!")
>>> Writers: David Fury and Ben Edlund; story by Fury
>>> Director: James A. Contner
>>>
>
>>> He may not have a quasi-split personality like his granddad,
>>> but one can never argue that he's not very different than the
>>> animal-like opportunist of "Out Of My Mind." Knew that Spike
>>> was just taking advantage of the chance to take a swing at
>>> Angel, but liked it anyway.
>> Well, attempting to kick Angel's ass is expected, betraying him
>> would have done the series in for me.
>
> Nygubhtu znlor ur'yy ng yrnfg trg gb qral Natry guerr gvzrf...
>
Arbitrar Of Quality
On Feb 1, 4:51 am, "Elisi" <elis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 31, 10:04 pm, "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com>
> wrote:
> > ANGEL
> > Season Five, Episode 2: "Just Rewards"
> > (or "Spikey the homosexual friendly ghost!")
>
> LMAO!
Did you actually get the reference, or just find it funny anyway?
It's been a long day, so no further detail, but I generally agree with
you that Spike, as family, has a natural connection to ATS that he
didn't have when he first became a regular on BTVS (it seems so
strange to think that he was supposed to fill the niche that Anya
eventually grew into). I'm also fine with him not fitting in as a
member of the main group, and am happy with how the relationship is
handled in this episode.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > In the meantime, there's nothing to do but have Spike hang around
> > haunting Angel and let the others react. This is fun breezy stuff
>
> It's a stupid rehash of an entire season (Buffy season four), with
> elements from season five (the vampire who won't go away) as well.
> Spike's lines are generally better than they were then, but that's the
> extent of it.
Not so much a rehash or a backsliding. Spike hooked up with the
Scoobies because he was a displaced villain who had nowhere else to go
due purely to an outside manipulator, and the show couldn't (or knew
it couldn't, and didn't try to) sustain a reason to keep him as a real
member of their group. Here Spike drifting in to be part of this show
is a direct consequence of his choices and actions on BTVS, and the
hostility comes mostly from a mix of bluster to cover fear and his
preexisting personal connection with Angel. There's history.
> 2) Enter Gunn, newly-minted lawyer. We have to see how effective he is,
> and in fact how he's the *most* effective member of the group, to
> understand that he's now the tool by which Angel will have to attempt to
> solve many of his problems.
I kinda skimped on writing about Gunn's role in the original review.
You're right that it's an important part of this picture.
> > I know that some
>
> > argue that Spike was "shoehorned in" to this series, but just based on
> > this episode, it looks like he'll be a great fit.
>
> The problem isn't the shoehorning, it's that it becomes The Spike Show.
> This episode pretty much has to be that, and he'll have to get his
> episodes over the course of the season (if he survives that long), but
> it's an ensemble cast, almost all of whom have compelling stories of
> their own that are completely unrelated to Spike. The trick is
> integrating him into the ensemble without having him be the focus of
> every scene. And I'm not sure M.E. has always been good at that. We'll
> see, I guess.
Indeed, we shall see. I don't see a problem (or a reason to worry
about one) yet. This episode is all about Spike (although he's
renewing old connections and making new ones with the rest of the
group), and he had no lines at all in the previous one. Balance. I
figure that as The New Guy, he's entitled to one show like this before
being phased into the ensemble.
> Spike could take the amulet,
> leave the building, and have his own life.
The amulet's corporeal, though, isn't it?
> The other, much more interesting, discussion is over the introduction of
> the shiny bauble itself:
>
> ANGEL
> Could have been me, Wes. Was supposed to be me.
>
> WESLEY
> You're not feeling guilty?
>
> ANGEL
> Wolfram & Hart gave me the amulet. They must have expected me to use it.
> And they had to have known it would've done to me what it did to Spike, so-
>
> WESLEY
> Why bother handing you the keys to the kingdom?
>
> ANGEL
> Doesn't make sense. What are the senior partners playing at?
>
> WESLEY
> Maybe there's dissent in their ranks, or maybe there's another player in
> the game they - and we don't know anything about. Then again, maybe they
> got exactly what they were after.
>
> ANGEL
> Spike.
>
> WESLEY
> He may be the one they-
>
> There's a lot here to digest and ponder.
Yeah. I'm not responding to all the (interesting) text about it just
because I see no way to know at this point. It'll be a bigger
question that will one day require a satisfactory answer after the
show is done building intrigue.
-AOQ
Scythe Matters
> Yet another example of them basing a story on what happens *after* the
> heroic ending, as seen most notably in When She Was Bad and the whole of
> BtVS season 6. I wonder if Spike will spot the parallels between his
> situation and Buffy's after she was brought back.
Well, we don't know that Spike was in "heaven." But otherwise,
sure...there should be some onscreen acknowledgment of the parallel,
though it doesn't have to be verbal. I guess we'll see.
> I have to wonder if Angel mainly talked to Giles or Willow or Faith,
> rather than Buffy herself.
Considering everything, I figure Faith is the most likely candidate.
> This is a natural part of his tough-guy, cock-of-the-walk,
> I'm-dominant-but-I'm-also-too-cool-to-be-part-of-the-group attitude.
> Will that change? Can it?
Since this is more of an ensemble show, and he doesn't carry all the
oppositional baggage he carried on BtVS, it almost has to. Doesn't it? ;-)
Scythe Matters
> Not so much a rehash or a backsliding. Spike hooked up with the
> Scoobies because he was a displaced villain who had nowhere else to go
> due purely to an outside manipulator, and the show couldn't (or knew
> it couldn't, and didn't try to) sustain a reason to keep him as a real
> member of their group. Here Spike drifting in to be part of this show
> is a direct consequence of his choices and actions on BTVS, and the
> hostility comes mostly from a mix of bluster to cover fear and his
> preexisting personal connection with Angel. There's history.
I'm not talking about what gets Spike into group A or B, I'm talking
about how the aftermath plays out on screen. Which is, I insist,
absolutely just more of the same that we've seen on the parent show, and
not even recently at that. Enough, already. Show us something new. For
God's sake, we know Marsters is capable of more than the Jack McFarland
role. (Yes, the example was chosen deliberately.)
>> Spike could take the amulet,
>> leave the building, and have his own life.
>
> The amulet's corporeal, though, isn't it?
Sure, but that's irrelevant (maybe "take" is what you're tripping over
here; I didn't necessarily mean it in a physical sense). He doesn't need
to be immediately proximate to it -- he is able to leave W&H without
consequences, just not L.A. -- and can go where he pleases (leaving
aside the disappearing act) within that boundary. Or if the location of
the amulet *is* a problem, just move it to where Spike would rather be
(or Angel would rather have him be). Problem solved.
Elisi
> > The fiancée ("Mrs." Q.) thought this one was on the dull side too.
> > I'm reconsidering the whole marriage thing.
>
> She was right. You should listen to her.
If you want a viewpoint that's completely different, then here's one -
incidentally by a woman who _seriously_ disliked Spike when he was on
BtVS (no spoilers):
http://yhlee.livejournal.com/295643.html#cutid1
> But as for the text, it's pretty simple. Spike's going to hell, and
> doesn't feel he deserves it.
I'm not sure exactly where you're seeing that. He might or might not
feel he deserves it, but he never says so. All he says is that he's
terrified. I'm reminded of 'Beneath You':
Spike: And-and now everybody's in here, talking. Everything I
did...everyone I- and him... and it... the other, the thing beneath-
beneath you. It's here too. Everybody. They all just tell me go...
go... to hell.
Because he's Spike, he never sat down and really thought about what a
soul would _mean_. And once he had it, first he was insane, then he
had a period of being Angel the second (complete with brooding), but
Buffy stopped that:
Buffy: Fine. Take a cell phone. That way, if I need someone to get
weepy or whaled on, I can call you.
'Get It Done'
So he stomped down on the guilt and the pain and became a useful
fighter. And I don't think he ever gave much thought to what being a
souled vampire had in store, although I'm guessing (from his BY
remark) that he figured it'd be hell. Now of course he's just saved
the world, and maybe he feels it's a tad unfair that he doesn't get a
break (and quite frankly it _is_ unfair that the soul should pay for
crimes it never comitted. Just sayin'), but mostly - I think he's just
scared. And - probably for the first time - thinking about what he is
and what that means. Not much else to do is there?
Elisi
> > I was in full on panic mode, even though I knew he was second in the
> > credits....
>
> Now I feel a little better about the gullibility.
>
> -AOQ
I remember being on the edge of my seat also, because it's very well
done. I also remember that the moment I *knew* beyond all doubt that
Spike was just playing along and doublecrossing Hainsley: when he used
the word 'deserve'. 'Cause well... that's a loaded one!
Scythe Matters
> If you want a viewpoint that's completely different
What are you talking about? I only want to hear views that agree with my
own. Isn't that the way the modern world works? ;-)
But seriously...I don't think the episode is boring *because of* Spike.
I think the episode's kinda boring (tedious would be a better word)
because of how they (mis)use him. N ivrjcbvag gung, V nqzvg, vf
rknpreongrq ol gur arkg srj rcvfbqrf.
>> But as for the text, it's pretty simple. Spike's going to hell, and
>> doesn't feel he deserves it.
>
> I'm not sure exactly where you're seeing that.
"You think that saving the sodding world would be enough to earn me a rest."
"You're king of a 30-floor castle, with all the cars, comfort, power,
and glory you could ever want, and here I save the world, throw myself
onto the proverbial hand grenade for love, honor, and all the right
reasons, and what do I get? Bloody well toasted and ghosted is what I
get, isn't it? It's not fair."
"I know what's down there — where it's trying to take me — and it's not
the place heroes go. Not by a bloody long shot."
Spike believes he deserves a reward -- from the Angel gang, from the
Powers, rira sebz Ohssl -- and he's not getting one. It's as plain as
day. It's also essential to his conflict with Angel. Angel believes he
should be in perpetual atonement, Spike claims to not give a damn. Spike
believes he's the hero who saved the world. Angel believes almost
exactly the opposite, and yet aspires to be the hero. If Spike was
willing to accept a punishment (here represented as hell, sort of),
there wouldn't be as much of a conflict. It's Spike's very attitude that
drives Angel nuts. Naq gung jvyy, svanyyl, or nqqerffrq va "qnzntr."
Elisi
> Elisi wrote:
> > If you want a viewpoint that's completely different
>
> What are you talking about? I only want to hear views that agree with my
> own. Isn't that the way the modern world works? ;-)
>
> But seriously...I don't think the episode is boring *because of* Spike.
> I think the episode's kinda boring (tedious would be a better word)
> because of how they (mis)use him. N ivrjcbvag gung, V nqzvg, vf
> rknpreongrq ol gur arkg srj rcvfbqrf.
>
> >> But as for the text, it's pretty simple. Spike's going to hell, and
> >> doesn't feel he deserves it.
>
> > I'm not sure exactly where you're seeing that.
>
> "You think that saving the sodding world would be enough to earn me a rest."
>
> "You're king of a 30-floor castle, with all the cars, comfort, power,
> and glory you could ever want, and here I save the world, throw myself
> onto the proverbial hand grenade for love, honor, and all the right
> reasons, and what do I get? Bloody well toasted and ghosted is what I
> get, isn't it? It's not fair."
>
> the place heroes go. Not by a bloody long shot."
>
> Spike believes he deserves a reward -- from the Angel gang, from the
> Powers, rira sebz Ohssl -- and he's not getting one. It's as plain as
> day. It's also essential to his conflict with Angel. Angel believes he
> should be in perpetual atonement, Spike claims to not give a damn. Spike
> believes he's the hero who saved the world. Angel believes almost
> exactly the opposite, and yet aspires to be the hero. If Spike was
> willing to accept a punishment (here represented as hell, sort of),
> there wouldn't be as much of a conflict. It's Spike's very attitude that
> drives Angel nuts. Naq gung jvyy, svanyyl, or nqqerffrq va "qnzntr."
I don't think it's as simple as that - although those are all valid
points. The episode is after all called 'Just Rewards' (there are
*always* layers to the titles).
The thing is, Spike did everything right - sacrificed his life for his
(selfless) love of a woman and the world (which he helped save as far
back as 'Becoming' 'because he liked it'). I don't think he ever
thought further than that - didn't much ponder what would happen
afterwards. As I pointed out, when he got the soul he was perfectly
well aware that he was destined for hell... and now that he's done the
big hero thing for all the the right reasons he finds that it makes
not the slightest bit of difference. I think more than anything he's
bitter. Not that he wants a 'reward', but just some tiny token that he
did well. A 'Thank You' maybe? Or - as he says, in an echo of his
speech in 'Beneath You':
Spike: "You think that saving the sodding world would be enough to
earn me a rest."
(We see it again at Hainsley's place - Spike is envious of the dead
bodies because they're at peace. That's what he wants.)
And then there is Angel - Angel who made some sort of devil's bargain
and is now head of Evil Inc and (as far as Spike can see) reaping all
sorts of rewards that he doesn't deserve. I don't think Spike wants
W&H - he sees through the superficial nature of the setup immediately
(although he wouldn't mind that Viper I'm sure) - he just wants some
justice.
Guvf jvyy nyy or nqqerffrq va 'Uryyobhaq' bs pbhefr (juvpu vf n fznyy
znfgrecvrpr): "Lbh'er tbvat gb uryy. Jr obgu ner." juvpu V guvax qbrf
n ybg gb pbafbyr Fcvxr. 'Qnzntr' - nf V frr vg - unf zber gb qb jvgu
trggvat Fcvxr onpx gb jurer ur jnf cer-'Trg Vg Qbar', fvapr Fcvxr'f
wbhearl va F5 vf nyy nobhg gelvat gb jbex bhg jung ur vf naq jung vg
zrnaf gb or n Punzcvba naq vs guvf vf fbzrguvat ur jnagf gb pubbfr sbe
uvzfrys naq jul (frr 'Rcvcunal').
We see it all most clearly after he disappears and comes back for the
first time (in the lab) - because he's suddenly shifting all the blame
to Angel:
SPIKE
I'm-I was...
(to Angel) You! This is your fault.
ANGEL
Mine?
SPIKE
You brought that bloody amulet to Sunnydale. You would have been the
one to use it, until you chickened out.
ANGEL
What did you-
SPIKE
(incensed)
You heard me! You left town in the nick of time, didn't you, before
the death and mayhem? Abandoned the woman you claimed to love.
ANGEL
She made the call. Wasn't my choice.
SPIKE
And this, bloody hell, wasn't mine. I'm not you. I don't give a piss
about atonement or destiny. Just because I got me a soul doesn't mean
I'm gonna let myself be led around by-
He's angry and he's scared and he's lashing out. Before that he was
annoyed because being a ghost wasn't really what he signed up for, but
he was wondering 'what' he was and what he was doing there. After his
first trip to hell, he's all about making Angel's life hell...
Clairel
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
> Season Five, Episode 2: "Just Rewards"
> (or "Spikey the homosexual friendly ghost!")
> Director: James A. Contner
>
> Hopefully it'll be a trend. Doesn't make up for all the years going
> without on R1, but better than nothing. I feel like the TV experience
> isn't quite complete without them, and I'm being totally serious.
>
> I'm reconsidering the whole marriage thing.
>
> knowing anything that happened after "Chosen," or who all these people
> around him are. I was soaking up the flashbacks to Spike's death -
> for me, it's actually been a few months since the end of the other
> show, so the epilogues and follow-ups are in their appropriate place.
> As with so many others, he had what could have been a satisfying
> ending to his arc, but it's not going to be that easy. The show is
> be enough to earn me a rest." Not in the Buffyverse.
>
> Quite amused at all the things Angel didn't think were worth
> mentioning to his group. It would seem that he and Buffy have talked
> in the months since her series ended - presumably ran up the phone
> bill quite a bit, given the details that he now knows about, say,
> an interesting conversation to listen in on - mostly recaps, but I
> always want to know how people tell the stories, what they emphasize,
> what they leave out...
>
> with the actors having a good time generally not liking each other.
> between the two characters, which I do, since that's mostly what the
> is more in the context/tone/delivery than in the lines themselves.
> Interesting to see that when they do their "fighting over a girl" bit,
> Angel is the one who takes the "she's not mine to 'keep'" tack.
> quickly fades out of the episode once it starts getting to the point -
> what they really should've done is have Spike not direct a single line
> of dialogue toward her all episode. Ah, well. Also I'd have had her
> be sure to back away when first leaving the room.
>
> actually very funny, but Spike's "oh, fuck this" expression after
> failing to connect with his punch almost saves it. Moving on, there's
> a bit of a reversed hero-villain vibe in that we have the bad guy able
> to toss the good guy around in a "fair" mano-a-telekentico fight, and
> the hero resorting to slimy legal maneuvering to keep him down.
> works - the more direct component is of course Spike's stream of
> constant disdain for all things Corporate Angel.
>
> ATS won't be skimping there, between "he's my date" and having one
> vampire hang out in the other's bedroom. First time we've seen Angel
> shirtless in a few years, not counting the very brief scene in
> "Awakening" - guess he got in shape again. But was he really going to
> sleep in those pants?
>
> taking itself more seriously. There's Spike's apparent eagerness to
> try to kill Angel which gives us an act break, but the real
> transitional moment is Angel finding out about a way to get rid of
> him. That scene moves from the comedic pettiness of "yeah, yeah,
> mercy. I'm all for it. Just, hey, tell me how we do it," to the
> conflicted delivery on "I think I want to sleep on it" once a
> quick to point out might be the most merciful option. The best
> Buffyverse shows have found a way to smoothly extract drama from out
> of the fun and tongue-in-cheek -- achieved here by the followup A/S
> dialogues. After entertaining us as a wisecracking ghost sidekick,
> Spoik turns things around with the line "what, think I could really
> stand hanging out with you and your lot, now and forever?
> Wisecracking ghost sidekick? No bloody thanks," and it's quite
> believable.
>
> necromancer's reappearance is timed well, as is the way Spike found a
> core of honesty that managed to get Angel to trust him so he could
> seemingly betray him after all. And the idea of putting him in
> Angel's body is whacked out enough to work for me. Now, although I
> did figure out what the vampires' real plan was well before our late
> villain did, I was momentarily fooled, which is slightly embarrassing
> since I really should know Spike v. 2.0 better than that by now. He
> may not have a quasi-split personality like his granddad, but one can
> never argue that he's not very different than the animal-like
> opportunist of "Out Of My Mind."
--Indeed, one never can argue that, and I'm glad to hear you say so;
but do some google searches and you'll see a surprising number of
people in fall of 2003 completely disregarding Spike's soulfulness and
his saving of the world, and anticipating that Spike would be a
malevolent villain on AtS! It was really bizarre reading the posts
that appeared around the time this episode, and the next few, first
aired.
Of course it wasn't because of anything *in* the episodes themselves;
it was just wishful thinking on the part of some viewers who wanted
their old Evil Spike back.
On the other side, the more militant Spike fans were offended that ME
would even try to use the question of Spike's behavior as something to
generate suspense at this point. It didn't bother me because, in the
first place, it was so crystal clear that Spike would never do
anything malevolent such as going along with the necromancer's plan --
and (I figured) only a novice viewer who hadn't been following Spike
at all could ever think for a moment that he would; I thought maybe ME
was aiming the "suspense" at AtS viewers who might not have seen Spike
since the season 1 episode "In the Dark"!
I'm not all that militant or bristly about this issue, but I am a bit
surprised, AOQ, to find you confessing that you were briefly taken in
by the "suspense." I thought you knew Spike better than that.
What is wrong with Mrs. AOQ, anyway? What could she possibly find
dull about this episode?
Clairel
Scythe Matters
> The thing is, Spike did everything right - sacrificed his life for his
> (selfless) love of a woman and the world (which he helped save as far
> back as 'Becoming' 'because he liked it'). I don't think he ever
> thought further than that - didn't much ponder what would happen
> afterwards.
Which is why I draw the distinction between where he was in "Chosen" (or
really, much of last season) and where he is now. His opinion seems to
have shifted on this point. (And no reason not to; in "Chosen" events
were coming fast and furious, and the "reward" (as such) was right in
front of his nose. Spectral Spike is not only in a different physical
place, he's got the free time (and the geographical limitation) to
ponder his situation.
> Guvf jvyy nyy or nqqerffrq va 'Uryyobhaq' bs pbhefr (juvpu vf n fznyy
> znfgrecvrpr)
And you know, I absolutely loathe that episode.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> > Not so much a rehash or a backsliding. Spike hooked up with the
> > Scoobies because he was a displaced villain who had nowhere else to go
> > due purely to an outside manipulator, and the show couldn't (or knew
> > it couldn't, and didn't try to) sustain a reason to keep him as a real
> > member of their group. Here Spike drifting in to be part of this show
> > is a direct consequence of his choices and actions on BTVS, and the
> > hostility comes mostly from a mix of bluster to cover fear and his
> > preexisting personal connection with Angel. There's history.
>
> I'm not talking about what gets Spike into group A or B, I'm talking
> about how the aftermath plays out on screen. Which is, I insist,
> absolutely just more of the same that we've seen on the parent show, and
> not even recently at that. Enough, already. Show us something new. For
> God's sake, we know Marsters is capable of more than the Jack McFarland
> role. (Yes, the example was chosen deliberately.)
I say there's a big difference between him as a chained monster,
quipping at anyone who's in sight, and his focused, personal haunting
of Angel here. They don't play out the same way. I think the
fundamental issue, though, is simply how much one enjoys watching the
"Odd Couple" (for lack of a better term) dynamic with these characters
for an extended period of time.
-AOQ
Elisi
> > Guvf jvyy nyy or nqqerffrq va 'Uryyobhaq' bs pbhefr (juvpu vf n fznyy
> > znfgrecvrpr)
>
> And you know, I absolutely loathe that episode.
I can't tell if you're joking or not, although I suspect not.
I'm sharpening my 'pencils' already! :)
Apteryx
news:1170372102....@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
I guess I'm a little dizzy from the relief that your reviews have finally
moved past the horrible season.
--
Apteryx
Scythe Matters
> I say there's a big difference between him as a chained monster,
> quipping at anyone who's in sight, and his focused, personal haunting
> of Angel here. They don't play out the same way.
He wasn't chained all that long, and yes they do.
Enough of this, eh? ;-)
Clairel
--Amazing how so many of you people had so little faith in Spike (or,
to put it another way, so little faith in the ME writers' competence
at understanding what sort of character they had established the
previous year for t he fictional construct of Soulful Spike). I'm
amazed that anybody who wasn't in the Illogical-Stupidity faction
could have even had a microsecond's doubt.
Clairel
Elisi
Oh I didn't think he'd gone *evil* (duh!), but I wasn't sure if he was
working *with* Angel or if he had his own little plan. The moment he
started going on about 'deserving' things I knew he wasn't trying to
fool Angel, and hence they were working together. Does that make sense?
Ken from Chicago
"MBangel10 (Melissa)" <mban...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:q4adnV4QRJRXG1_Y...@comcast.com...
That's an unfair accusation. Spike knows his rights. He should see a lawyer.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
Just for old times sake:
Spike is evil, evil, evil.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
S3 of DS9 was when Ron Moore (currently reimagining BATTLESTAR GALACTICA, to
a great critical and split fan acclaim) was hired as lead writer / executive
producer--and TPTB at Paramount was distracted from DS9 due to the end of
TNG and making ST6 movie.
> story, which then went pretty much ignored for much of Season Four.
> S4 had some of the series's best stand-alones ("Hard Time" is the only
> Trek episode that makes me cry), but little discernable direction.
> The show was in one of its many transitions, and hit its peak (IMHO)
> after it learned to combine the dark feel of S4 with the plot elements
> and richness of long-term storytelling hinted at in the earlier
> seasons. So although there's something of a division, there are many
> reasons for it not related to the presence or absence of that
> particular character.
>
> One thing that was always clear is that the show's writers (and
> Michael Dorn) wanted him to be a member of the ensemble, not the new
> undisputed #1 or #2 character. After being in practically every scene
> in his debut, he got something like three lines in the next episode,
> and didn't get another major vehicle for a few months. He's not my
> favorite character but I generally liked him okay. The romances with
> the Dax Twins I can take or leave, no strong feelings.
Dax had a twin sister? er brother? er sibling?
> It's been said that the TNG staff loved beating up Worf, while the DS9
> writers realized that what people wanted to see was Worf being the one
> kicking ass. I can see that. The character stood out much more in
> the early days of _The Next Generation_, though, surrounded by all the
> '80s PC crowd. Ironically, although he seemed more at home in a
> grimmer, war-oriented series, it caused him to fade more readily into
> the background.
Because the writers didn't short-shrift the other characters to feature
Worf, like when Anya, Spike and then Tara were integrated with the cast of
BUFFY--as opposed to Seven of Nine was featured on STAR TREK: VOYAGER to the
detriment of the other characters.
> Long story short, Worf fit adequately well with DS9 and I grew to
> think of him more as a DS9 character than a TNG one.
>
> -AOQ
>
It was odd seeing him in the TNG movies after being on DS9.
-- Ken from Chicago
Eric Hunter
Does a ghost have a soul? Does the ghost of a VAMPIRE have
soul? Angel's running the L.A. branch of W&H, what should
the ghost of a Champion do when faced with that prospect?
I'd say there was room for a bit of doubt.
Eric.
--
Arbitrar Of Quality
Figuratively chained, no they don't, and absolutely.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
Ken from Chicago wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1170373304.9...@s48g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
> > On Jan 31, 9:33 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> >> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
> >> I'm curious. How easily did you think Worf fit into DS9 when he was
> >> added?
> >
> > Hmmm. Not a simple answer, because DS9 itself underwent a whole bunch
> > of tangentially Worf-associated changes in terms of feel at the same
> > time as he was added. There was the sudden shift to the Klingon war
>
> S3 of DS9 was when Ron Moore (currently reimagining BATTLESTAR GALACTICA, to
> a great critical and split fan acclaim) was hired as lead writer / executive
> producer--
Moore was certainly a big part of the change in direction (as were
studio dictates - I like the Defiant, but it was one of the most
blatant in a string of blatant ratings-oriented gimmicks) but I feel
like Ira Steven Behr pretty much called all the biggest shots after
Michael Piller left the show at around that time.
> and TPTB at Paramount was distracted from DS9 due to the end of
> TNG and making ST6 movie.
ST7 (although they stopped doing numbers, perhaps in part because of
the somehwat overstated "even/odd" quality hypothesis that fans had
come up with.
> > One thing that was always clear is that the show's writers (and
> > Michael Dorn) wanted him to be a member of the ensemble, not the new
> > undisputed #1 or #2 character. After being in practically every scene
> > in his debut, he got something like three lines in the next episode,
> > and didn't get another major vehicle for a few months. He's not my
> > favorite character but I generally liked him okay. The romances with
> > the Dax Twins I can take or leave, no strong feelings.
>
> Dax had a twin sister? er brother? er sibling?
No, but Jadzia did. ;-)
> > Long story short, Worf fit adequately well with DS9 and I grew to
> > think of him more as a DS9 character than a TNG one.
>
> It was odd seeing him in the TNG movies after being on DS9.
To me the TNG movies seem like a throwback to a time when the show was
still on the air, acting as if nothing had changed in the Trekverse
since then.
-AOQ
Clairel
--Yes, that makes a lot more sense. Sorry I didn't understand what
you meant.
Clairel
.
.
.
.
.
Clairel
--Now you're just being silly. What else is a ghost, but a soul plus
visible ectoplasm? (I doubt it would be possible for the ghost of a
soulless vampire to exist at all.) You're talking about the soul and
personality of a brave hero who died saving the world.
Anyway, you heard all the things Spike said during the episode
"Just Rewards"--his concern over Buffy's safety, Spike's moral
disapproval over the compromises Angel was making by working for
Wolfram & Hart, Spike's doubts about whether it was possible for Team
Angel to remain uncorrupted within the belly of the beast, etc.
Except for the concern over Buffy's safety, none of those other things
are points Spike would have made when he was soulless.
Besides, ME would have never undermined the moral progress made
by one of their most popular and beloved characters. Do recall that
the WB wanted Spike added to the cast of characters because of his
popularity.
It's beginning to sound as if you really do belong to the
Illogical-Stupidity Wish-Fulfillment camp of those who only enjoyed
Spike when he was evil, and thus insist obstinately, in defiance of
the evidence, that he must remain so.
Clairel
.
.
Clairel
--You're absolutely right, AOQ, but you're never going to be able to
get through to this person with reasoning.
Don Sample
Eric Hunter <hunt...@comcast.net.invalid> wrote:
> Does a ghost have a soul? Does the ghost of a VAMPIRE have
> soul?
Can something without a soul become a ghost?
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Ken from Chicago
>
> Ken from Chicago wrote:
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1170373304.9...@s48g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
>> > On Jan 31, 9:33 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>> >> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
>
>> >> I'm curious. How easily did you think Worf fit into DS9 when he was
>> >> added?
>> >
>> > Hmmm. Not a simple answer, because DS9 itself underwent a whole bunch
>> > of tangentially Worf-associated changes in terms of feel at the same
>> > time as he was added. There was the sudden shift to the Klingon war
>>
>> S3 of DS9 was when Ron Moore (currently reimagining BATTLESTAR GALACTICA,
>> to
>> a great critical and split fan acclaim) was hired as lead writer /
>> executive
>> producer--
>
> Moore was certainly a big part of the change in direction (as were
> studio dictates - I like the Defiant, but it was one of the most
> blatant in a string of blatant ratings-oriented gimmicks) but I feel
> like Ira Steven Behr pretty much called all the biggest shots after
> Michael Piller left the show at around that time.
Yeah, but the Defiant was a way wicked cool ship that, like DS9 the series,
broke the rules of Starfleet ship designs.
Savor the tasty goodness:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=q6gG9k_Rhnc
>> and TPTB at Paramount was distracted from DS9 due to the end of
>> TNG and making ST6 movie.
>
> ST7 (although they stopped doing numbers, perhaps in part because of
> the somehwat overstated "even/odd" quality hypothesis that fans had
> come up with.
>
>> > One thing that was always clear is that the show's writers (and
>> > Michael Dorn) wanted him to be a member of the ensemble, not the new
>> > undisputed #1 or #2 character. After being in practically every scene
>> > in his debut, he got something like three lines in the next episode,
>> > and didn't get another major vehicle for a few months. He's not my
>> > favorite character but I generally liked him okay. The romances with
>> > the Dax Twins I can take or leave, no strong feelings.
>>
>> Dax had a twin sister? er brother? er sibling?
>
> No, but Jadzia did. ;-)
Oh. Them. Thank you, . . . Angelus.
>> > Long story short, Worf fit adequately well with DS9 and I grew to
>> > think of him more as a DS9 character than a TNG one.
>>
>> It was odd seeing him in the TNG movies after being on DS9.
>
> To me the TNG movies seem like a throwback to a time when the show was
> still on the air, acting as if nothing had changed in the Trekverse
> since then.
>
> -AOQ
>
The tragedy is that DS9 took the torch from TNG and went light-years beyond.
-- Ken from Chicago
Arbitrar Of Quality
> > To me the TNG movies seem like a throwback to a time when the show was
> > still on the air, acting as if nothing had changed in the Trekverse
> > since then.
> >
>
> The tragedy is that DS9 took the torch from TNG and went light-years beyond.
I miss my dead war show.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
Now, now. Enough of the sniping, kids.
-AOQ
~seriously, Scythe's posts are very much worth reading, disagreements
and all~
One Bit Shy
news:1170373304.9...@s48g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 31, 9:33 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>> The implication of the ending is that Angel decided to trust Spike with
>> his
>> life. That's a big deal. I would have liked to see Angel make that
>> decision. I'm not convinced how big a deal that was gets across.
>
> I can see what you're saying, and it's valid, but I just don't feel it
> very strongly. The episode chose to go the route of a brisk action/
> surprise-oriented second half rather than get bogged down in too much
> introspection. One could make the case that the latter would've
> ultimately been more rewarding, but it could also have easily come off
> as turgid.
Oh, I don't mean to suggest re-working the plot in that fashion. I'm just
noting what that plot fails to accomplish.
And the issue is a broad one for the episode. (Which would essentially
require a completely different episode to rectify - not a tweak.) It's just
that for me, the episode utterly fails to establish a series place for
Spike - or even much to point the way towards one.
Elisi has a really nice idea about Spike being the prodigal son. I like it
a lot. But I'll be damned if I can find that in this episode.
Scythe is rather less enthused about what this episode does, but still
points to the issue of competing notions of what they deserve. He's not
wrong. There is support for that in the episode, and who knows, maybe that
will be a foundation for future tension.
But there are a bunch of other notions tossed out too. Like competing for
Buffy. The trust issue. (Which is the one the episode comes closest to
getting serious about.) Angel no longer being the lone vampire champion.
Hell, Spike knows the truth of Angel's dark side better than anybody there,
and just having him around is a constant reminder of the demon Angel wants
to supress. Maybe Spike's destiny is to finally force a real human/demon
reconciliation and unification within Angel.
Valid ideas tossed around like candy corn on Halloween - or naturally
implied by their long history. But none of it explored much beyond the
surface. Most of it left as one more cutting remark. The only lasting
impression I get out of this is their bickering. I struggle to imagine
anything substantive in the future depending on anything in this episode.
Unless the bickering is really it.
We know that Spike pretty much has to be a major character. So it annoys me
that his introduction feels so empty to me.
>> I'm curious. How easily did you think Worf fit into DS9 when he was
>> added?
>
> Hmmm. Not a simple answer, because DS9 itself underwent a whole bunch
> of tangentially Worf-associated changes in terms of feel at the same
> time as he was added....
> ...Long story short, Worf fit adequately well with DS9 and I grew to
> think of him more as a DS9 character than a TNG one.
I should have realized that's where you would go with the question. I was
just going to the question of how easily and quickly a very well established
character can or cannot be introduced into a parallel series. It's not
easy. You don't have a blank slate with which to construct. Somehow you
have to deal with all the baggage from his past - including stuff that isn't
relevant or may even be antithetical to the new series.
This may manifest itself in all sorts of problematic ways. For example, key
character traits may arise out of cues provided by the other characters he
interacts with. But those cues may not be easily transferred to the
characters inhabiting the new series.
Going back to Spike for a moment, for four years now, his character has been
primarily driven by some form of obsession with Buffy. It's a very personal
motivation that has ruled his character. Now that motivation is gone.
What's left? Surely he can't go through a year just imagining what Buffy
would want him to do. There's a huge hole in the very idea of him as an AtS
character. If they were being true to Spike, he really would be running off
to Europe or wherever as soon as he could to reconnect with Buffy. Dealing
with that gap has got to be a challenge.
Returning to Worf, I didn't mind his introduction to DS9. (And it's been
quite a while since I watched that set of DVDs. I should pull them out
again. I recall also liking many of the episodes that year quite a bit.)
But I had a very strong sense of him being out of place. Not just in the
sense of a stranger come to town not having a place, but in the sense of
belonging to a different TV series. From my point of view it took quite a
while for he and the series to adapt to each other.
Ultimately I think they succeeded. I think of Worf as very much an asset to
the series. (I'm not so keen on the Dax romance, but that has more to do
with the limitations of the Dax depiction. Conceptually it worked. But
physically, I could never buy into the notion of her standing up to Worf as
some kind of near equal as Klingon warrior. And, well, I think she was the
weakest actor of the series regulars.)
Maybe, for the long run, AtS is right to start shallow with Spike and let
the kinks work out and just let people get used to him being around before
getting serious. Maybe. We'll see. But even so, that doesn't make me
appreciate this episode any more.
OBS
Ian Galbraith
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1170534552....@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
>> Moore was certainly a big part of the change in direction (as were
>> studio dictates - I like the Defiant, but it was one of the most
>> blatant in a string of blatant ratings-oriented gimmicks) but I feel
>> like Ira Steven Behr pretty much called all the biggest shots after
>> Michael Piller left the show at around that time.
> Yeah, but the Defiant was a way wicked cool ship that, like DS9 the series,
> broke the rules of Starfleet ship designs.
I always thought it paled in comparison to other ship designs, like say in
Babylon 5.
[snip]
--
"Cats are smarter than dogs. You can't get eight cats to pull a sled
through snow." --Jeff Valdez
Eric Hunter
In point of fact we're talking about some mystical construct
created by the amulet that W&H sent to Sunnydale, and not a
ghost at all. "Ghost" is a convenient shorthand, and he seems
like soulful Spike of BtVS S7, but we don't KNOW what he is,
or how he came about.
> Besides, ME would have never undermined the moral progress made
> by one of their most popular and beloved characters.
Right, there is no possible dramatic effect to be gained
from back-sliding...
> It's beginning to sound as if you really do belong to the
> Illogical-Stupidity Wish-Fulfillment camp of those who only enjoyed
> Spike when he was evil, and thus insist obstinately, in defiance of
> the evidence, that he must remain so.
Actually, I consider Spike's story one of the most, if
not the most, compelling stories of the Whedonverse, and
it seemed unlikely that the writers would have him side
with the necromancer over Angel, but given some of the
other twists JW put us through, I wasn't prepared to
dismiss the idea out-of-hand.
Eric.
--
Ken from Chicago
"Ian Galbraith" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:2dukaegkqdm3$.d6i8qj6zgq61.dlg@40tude.net...
That's why I didn't see its addition as purely a ratings stunt to make it
more of "starship" show. And note I said "Starfleet" not "starship" designs.
And for Starfleet it was almost as radical change as the White Star was to
Earthgov ship designs.
-- Ken from Chicagolon 5 (the last best hope for Bears)
George W Harris
wrote:
:> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
:
:-The spoon thing. (And Spike's reaction. He's *offended* that Angel used
:such an unheroic weapon to take out the butler.)
Recall the battlecry of a hero created by one of
the two writers of this episode.
--
"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar." -Wash, 'Serenity'
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> broke the rules of Starfleet ship designs.
what we need now is a discussion on the correct position of thermal ports
and whether the -return- is return of the jedi or return of the king
meow arf meow - they are performing horrible experiments in space
major grubert is watching you - beware the bakalite
impeach the bastard - the airtight garage has you neo
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> In article <I6ednbx9XpG6SVnY...@comcast.com>,
> Eric Hunter <hunt...@comcast.net.invalid> wrote:
>
> > Does a ghost have a soul? Does the ghost of a VAMPIRE have
> > soul?
>
> Can something without a soul become a ghost?
a ghost is a ghost of course of course
and no one can ensoul a ghost of course
that is of course unless the ghost is the famous mr spike
go right to the source and ask the ghost
hell shout you the answer that youll like most
hes always vain and full of boast
talk to mr spike
angel broodity broods a streak
and waste your time of day
but mr spike will alway speak
even if he has nothing to say
a ghost is a ghost of course of course
and this onell talk till his voice is hoarse
you never heard of an ensouled corpse?
well listen to this -my name is mr spike-
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> not the most, compelling stories of the Whedonverse, and
> it seemed unlikely that the writers would have him side
> with the necromancer over Angel, but given some of the
> other twists JW put us through, I wasn't prepared to
> dismiss the idea out-of-hand.
depends if angel is still the hero
spike burnt himself at the stake to save the world
he doesnt need angel for moral guidance
i can see the possibility that spike judges angel and finds him wanting
it wouldnt be about spike being evil
but rather spike being good enough to put down the demon
Elisi
anges <mair_fh...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Actually, I consider Spike's story one of the most, if
> > not the most, compelling stories of the Whedonverse, and
> > it seemed unlikely that the writers would have him side
> > with the necromancer over Angel, but given some of the
> > other twists JW put us through, I wasn't prepared to
> > dismiss the idea out-of-hand.
>
> depends if angel is still the hero
>
> spike burnt himself at the stake to save the world
> he doesnt need angel for moral guidance
> i can see the possibility that spike judges angel and finds him wanting
>
> it wouldnt be about spike being evil
> but rather spike being good enough to put down the demon
Although that would be a little harsh considering all the times Angel
let Spike gowithout killing him back when he (Spike) was evil. As I
keep saying - they're family. They'll stick together, even if they
hate each other. (Remember, it was *Angel* who stopped Buffy from
staking Spike in Lovers Walk!).
Ken from Chicago
"mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
news:mair_fheal-3CE2E...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
Way better than the Revenge of the Sith.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"George W Harris" <gha...@mundsprung.com> wrote in message
news:42nas25ftn23ea1ir...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 23:57:21 -0000, chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> wrote:
>
> :> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> :
> :-The spoon thing. (And Spike's reaction. He's *offended* that Angel
> used
> :such an unheroic weapon to take out the butler.)
You know the old saying: The spoon is mightier than the sword.
> Recall the battlecry of a hero created by one of
> the two writers of this episode.
> --
> "I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar." -Wash, 'Serenity'
But then there was the Fall.
> George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"Scythe Matters" <sp...@spam.spam> wrote in message
news:ObydnfHpc8WTMl_Y...@rcn.net...
> chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
>
>> Yet another example of them basing a story on what happens *after* the
>> heroic ending, as seen most notably in When She Was Bad and the whole of
>> BtVS season 6. I wonder if Spike will spot the parallels between his
>> situation and Buffy's after she was brought back.
>
> Well, we don't know that Spike was in "heaven." But otherwise,
> sure...there should be some onscreen acknowledgment of the parallel,
> though it doesn't have to be verbal. I guess we'll see.
>
>> I have to wonder if Angel mainly talked to Giles or Willow or Faith,
>> rather than Buffy herself.
>
> Considering everything, I figure Faith is the most likely candidate.
>
>> This is a natural part of his tough-guy, cock-of-the-walk,
>> I'm-dominant-but-I'm-also-too-cool-to-be-part-of-the-group attitude.
>> Will that change? Can it?
>
> Since this is more of an ensemble show, and he doesn't carry all the
> oppositional baggage he carried on BtVS, it almost has to. Doesn't it? ;-)
That's guys in general. How often has Gunn and Wes pulled the nonchalant
bit?
-- Ken from Chicago
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
the jedi deserved it
ive wondered if lucas really intended the jedi to be such bastards or not
theyre all love of humanity and serving society etc
but couldnt be bothered to send one guy over to tatootine for a couple of days
to rescue annakins mother
its like they were willing to have a human tortured to death
just to teach anni some lame lesson about emotional detachment
its all unsavory cult activity
Arbitrar Of Quality
> chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> > I have to wonder if Angel mainly talked to Giles or Willow or Faith,
> > rather than Buffy herself.
>
> Considering everything, I figure Faith is the most likely candidate.
That would've also been an interesting conversation to hear some of.
-AOQ
~by definition, because it would've been a scene between Angel and
Faith~
Ken from Chicago
Blame the writer / director / creator.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"Hey, Angiecakes, you know I'm copacedic, but the gang around here aren't to
thrilled about a big family reunion. They all wigged out when we found out
you were not only part of but running the show at Wolfram & Hart--especially
since a few months ago it was a big hole in the ground."
-- Ken from Chicago