[AOQ] _Angel_: Final thoughts and complete ratings
Arbitrar Of Quality
to. It's one of those things. It had its broody sensibilities and
the promise of getting very dark. And it had one of my absolute
favorite Buffyverse characters as its protagonist, so that was
attractive. (No, no, I'm not saying *I'm* attracted. I'm just saying
that I think Angel is fascinating, someone one can watch for years and
never get bored.) (Maybe I'm a little attracted.) And there's that
underdog cult appeal too. This seemed like the one of Joss's shows
that seems to inspire the least amount of fanatical devotion,
championed by a select subset of Buffyverse fans. I was rooting for
the new show, to the point where I think I was even secretly just a
little bit happy whenever ATS got on a roll at the same time as BTVS
had a weak spell.
Basically, I came into ATS with a special affinity for it, before I'd
even watched the premiere. And that stayed with me through the
boredom of Season One, the anticlimaxes and misfires of Season Two,
the character-assassinating side-trips of Season Three, the forays
into nonsense of Season Four, and the overly-episodic flavor of Season
Five - there was always enough there that I knew I'd keep watching.
And the show rewarded me when it started producing some of the
Buffyverse's best individual episodes in the early Slayer crossover
episodes. It did it again in late S1 and early S2 when it finally
figured out what kind of show it wanted to be and produced some
incredibly memorable moments. And when ATS hit its stride and stayed
there in Season Three, it was the best reward I could have hoped for
sticking with it.
Objectively, I don't think ATS is as good a show as _Buffy_, overall.
But I just might like it more.
It soon became clear that these threads wouldn't generate the kind of
traffic that the other show did, but fortunately I also soon saw that
there were some regular posters and occasional posters who'd come
through. And the reviews were a direct stimulus to nudge at least one
person into watching the series for the first time, so that's
special. I'm just a guy spewing brash impressions, but thanks to the
quality of the shows, we've gotten some fascinating thoughts from our
regular and occasional posters - I know I always looked forward to
reading every post.
Thanks to this project, I don't know if I've ever been so involved
with television as during this whole Buffyverse review session. It's
about time to move on, channel writing in directions that don't
involve the Internet. Except that there's some interest in doing
_Firefly_ soon, so... And after that, maybe I'll put on my arbiter's
hat again someday. Now, another poster was considering doing a new
set of reviews to cover the re-watching phase, so we'll see if he's
still interested. Otherwise, I still plan to briefly comment on how
things look the second time around, and generally drop by from time to
time.
It's been a pleasure. Be well.
-Arbitrar Of Quality
.
.
.
.
.
.
Below are my complete initial gut-reaction ratings for each episode.
They're subject to change as I re-watch, but for the time being I
don't really care how much I failed to appreciate your personal
favorite episode; these are my original feelings.
Season One ratings:
1) "City Of" - Good
2) "Lonely Hearts" - Weak
3) "Into The Dark" - Good
4) "I Fall To Pieces" - Good
5) "Rm W/ A Vu" - Decent
6) "Sense And Sensitivity" - Weak
7) "The Bachelor Party" - Decent
8) "I Will Remember You" - Excellent
9) "Hero" - Good
10) "Parting Gifts" - Decent
11) "Somnambulist" - Good
12) "Expecting" - Bad
13) "She" - Good
14) "I've Got You Under My Skin" - Decent
15) "The Prodigal" - Decent
16) "The Ring" - Decent
17) "Eternity" - Decent
18) "Five By Five" - Excellent
19) "Sanctuary" - Excellent
20) "War Zone" - Decent
21) "Blind Date" - Good
22) "To Shanshu In L.A." - Good
Season Two ratings:
1) "Judgment" - Weak
2) "Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been?" - Decent
3) "First Impressions" - Good
4) "Untouched" - Excellent*
5) "Dear Boy" - Good
6) "Guise Will Be Guise" - Decent
7) "Darla" - Good
8) "The Shroud Of Rahmon" - Decent
9) "The Trial" - Excellent
10) "Reunion" - Good
11) "Redefinition" - Decent
12) "Blood Money" - Decent
13) "Happy Anniversary" - Decent
14) "The Thin Dead Line" - Decent
15) "Reprise" - Good
16) "Epiphany" - Decent
17) "Disharmony" - Good
18) "Dead End" - Good
19) "Belonging" - Decent
20) "Over The Rainbow" - Decent
21) "Through The Looking Glass" - Decent
22) "There's No Place Like Plrtz Glrb" - Decent
* rating changed from original review
Season Three ratings:
1) "Heartthrob" - Decent
2) "That Vision-Thing" - Good
3) "That Old Gang Of Mine" - Decent
4) "Carpe Noctem" - Decent
5) "Fredless" - Good
6) "Billy" - Good
7) "Offspring" - Decent
8) "Quickening" - Good
9) "Lullaby" - Good
10) "Dad" - Decent
11) "Birthday" - Good
12) "Provider" - Weak
13) "Waiting In The Wings" - Decent
14) "Couplet" - Decent
15) "Loyalty" - Excellent
16) "Sleep Tight" - Good
17) "Forgiving" - Excellent
18) "Double Or Nothing" - Decent
19) "The Price" - Good
20) "A New World" - Good
21) "Benediction" - Excellent
22) "Tomorrow" - Good
Season Four ratings:
1) "Deep Down" - Good
2) "Ground State" - Good
3) "The House Always Wins" - Bad
4) "Slouching Toward Bethlehem" - Good
5) "Supersymmetry" - Good
6) "Spin The Bottle" - Decent
7) "Apocalypse, Nowish" - Decent
8) "Habeas Corpses" - Good
9) "Long Day's Journey" - Good
10) "Awakening" - Decent
11) "Soulless" - Good
12) "Calvary" - Excellent
13) "Salvage" - Good
14) "Release" - Decent
15) "Orpheus" - Good
16) "Players" - Weak
17) "Inside Out" - Excellent
18) "Shiny Happy People" - Decent
19) "The Magic Bullet" - Decent
20) "Sacrifice" - Decent
21) "Peace Out" - Good
22) "Home" - Excellent
Season Five ratings:
1) "Conviction" - Weak
2) "Just Rewards" - Good
3) "Unleashed" - Good
4) "Hell Bound" - Decent
5) "Life Of The Party" - Weak
6) "The Cautionary Tale Of Numero Cinco" - Decent
7) "Lineage" - Good
8) "Destiny" - Good
9) "Harm's Way" - Good
10) "Soul Purpose" - Good
11) "Damage" - Good
12) "You're Welcome" - Good
13) "Why We Fight" - Weak
14) "Smile Time" - Excellent
15) "A Hole In The World" - Decent
16) "Shells" - Good
17) "Underneath" - Good
18) "Origin" - Excellent
19) "Time Bomb" - Decent
20) "The Girl In Question" - Weak
21) "Power Play" - Good
22) "Not Fade Away" - Excellent
Season One
Bad - 1
Weak - 2
Decent - 8
Good - 8
Excellent - 3
Average rating: 3.45 ["Decent plus"] (Decent=3)
Quality Percentage [% of episodes ranking Good or higher]: 50%
Season Two
Bad - 0
Weak - 1
Decent - 12
Good - 7
Excellent - 2
Average rating: 3.45 ["Decent plus"] (Decent=3)
Quality Percentage [% of episodes ranking Good or higher]: 41%
Season Three
Bad - 0
Weak - 1
Decent - 8
Good - 10
Excellent - 3
Average rating: 3.68 ["Good minus"] (Decent=3)
Quality Percentage [% of episodes ranking Good or higher]: 59%
Season Four
Bad - 1
Weak - 1
Decent - 7
Good - 10
Excellent - 3
Average rating: 3.59 ["Good minus"] (Decent=3)
Quality Percentage [% of episodes ranking Good or higher]: 59%
Season Five
Bad - 0
Weak - 4
Decent - 4
Good - 11
Excellent - 3
Average rating: 3.59 ["Good minus"] (Decent=3)
Quality Percentage [% of episodes ranking Good or higher]: 64%
Complete series
ABOMINATION - 0
Bad - 2
Weak - 9
Decent - 39
Good - 46
Excellent - 14
SUPERLATIVE - 0
Ratings by season:
S1: Mean = 3.45, 50% quality
S2: Mean = 3.45, 41% quality
S3: Mean = 3.68, 59% quality
S4: Mean = 3.59. 59% quality
S5: Mean = 3.59, 64% quality
Complete series: Mean= 3.55, 55% quality
Sayonara!
Rowan Hawthorn
>
>
>
> It's been a pleasure. Be well.
>
You, too, and thanks for these reviews. I still haven't managed to
watch the entire series, but I do intend to eventually, and reading
these reviews have given me lots of alternate viewpoints to take into
consideration when I do.
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Sandy
one? :o)
Patrician
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1173336562.6...@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Bye AOQ, I didn't participate very often in the discussions generated by
your posts/reviews but did read them all, and was appreciative of the time
and effort you put in. Thanks very much for the entertainment.
Trev
MBangel10 (Melissa)
>
> S1: Mean = 3.45, 50% quality
> S2: Mean = 3.45, 41% quality
> S3: Mean = 3.68, 59% quality
> S4: Mean = 3.59. 59% quality
> S5: Mean = 3.59, 64% quality
> Complete series: Mean= 3.55, 55% quality
>
>
> Sayonara!
I just wanted to pop in and give a great big THANK YOU! to you AOQ, even
though I didn't post all that often in the later seasons of Btvs and
most of Ats, I wanted you to know that I've really enjoyed each and
every one of your reviews. Although, some I agreed with more than others
you made the show fun again, and that's a wonderful thing.
Kudos for the reviews and keeping us all here at alt.buffy entertained
for so long.
I for one, am really going to miss them and look forward to your
comments on any episodes that you wish to comment on in the second go
'round.
Thanks.
Apteryx
news:1173336562.6...@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>
> Bad - 0
> Weak - 4
> Decent - 4
> Good - 11
> Excellent - 3
> Average rating: 3.59 ["Good minus"] (Decent=3)
> Quality Percentage [% of episodes ranking Good or higher]: 64%
For season 5 I get:
Bad - 0
Weak - 0
Decent - 6
Good - 12
Excellent - 4
Average rating 4.19 [Good (Good is 3.51 - 4.50)]
Quality % is 73%
> Complete series
> ABOMINATION - 0
> Bad - 2
> Weak - 9
> Decent - 39
> Good - 46
> Excellent - 14
> SUPERLATIVE - 0
For me its
Bad - 1
Weak - 15
Decent - 53
Good - 36
Excellent - 5
> Ratings by season:
> S1: Mean = 3.45, 50% quality
Apteryx rating = 4.90, 32% quality
(the smaller the number in the Apteryx rating, the better the season)
> S2: Mean = 3.45, 41% quality
Apteryx rating = 4.31, 64% quality
> S3: Mean = 3.68, 59% quality
Apteryx rating = 5.06, 14% quality
> S4: Mean = 3.59. 59% quality
Apteryx rating = 5.42, 5% quality
> S5: Mean = 3.59, 64% quality
Apteryx rating 4.19, 73% quality
> Complete series: Mean= 3.55, 55% quality
Average series Apteryx rating is 4.78 [Decent (Decent is 4.51 - 5.50)]
Series Quality % is 37%
Overall my average rating for AtS is well behind that for BtVS (4.44). But
AtS 5 does well, being bettered only by the first three BtVS seasons. In
some respects it does well even against them - it has a higher quality
rating than BtVS 2, and has more Excellent episodes than BtVS 3 (also more
Excellents numerically than BtVS 1, but not proportionally). It also has a
better best episode (AHITW) than BtVS 1 or 3, and a better worst episode
(Hellbound) than any of them.
--
Apteryx
Tammy Davis
>
> It's been a pleasure. Be well.
>
> -Arbitrar Of Quality
Delurking here to thank you so much for the excellent reviews.
Reading them has brought back fond memories of this
truely superb show. And it makes me miss it all over again.
Take care.
Kermit
Just a quick note to say how much I have enjoyed having these reviews.
It is always a little disturbing to discover people view the same events
in radically different ways from my own, but I did have many, many
moments where I read something and thought to myself, "Hmmm, never
thought of that".
Tips hat to AoQ, and to every single person who posted replies.
Wes <3254176>
<tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
>Sayonara!
Thanks again for these. Lots of fun and many interesting thoughts from
you and everyone who posted.
Wes
Bob
It's not.
> But I just might like it more.
Interesting!
Just a chime in with others for enlivening this group with all your
reviews. A very good read and a fine project. Look forward to any
more overview/retrospective views you may post in future.
BOB
Arbitrar Of Quality
> What about a comparison to your ratings of BtVS episodes? Could you do
> one? :o)
No.
-AOQ
~but here're the tools to do so:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.tv.buffy-v-slayer/browse_frm/thread/a6ef6eccfe8ea8/cea0a40d323ccc0f?lnk=gst&q=AOQ+ratings&rnum=2#cea0a40d323ccc0f~
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> I always loved _Angel_, for some reason. Or at least, I always wanted
> to. It's one of those things. It had its broody sensibilities and
> the promise of getting very dark. And it had one of my absolute
> favorite Buffyverse characters as its protagonist, so that was
> attractive. (No, no, I'm not saying *I'm* attracted. I'm just saying
> that I think Angel is fascinating, someone one can watch for years and
> never get bored.) (Maybe I'm a little attracted.)
"But if anything, he's more of an inspiration, a spiritual guide. Have
you read his book? It's a life changer." (Sorry, couldn't resist.)
> And there's that
> underdog cult appeal too. This seemed like the one of Joss's shows
> that seems to inspire the least amount of fanatical devotion,
> championed by a select subset of Buffyverse fans.
Probably one reason for this is that almost everyone who comes to Angel
has already been watching Buffy, whereas lots more people came to Buffy
(or Firefly) without having seen the other shows. Whichever show a person
starts with has a head start in the race for their affections.
> Objectively, I don't think ATS is as good a show as _Buffy_, overall.
> But I just might like it more.
Buffy the Vampire Slayer remains my first and truest Jossverse love.
Angel is a close second, while Firefly is automatically third simply
because there isn't as much material there to love. (But if it had lasted
two or three full seasons, Firefly could very well have grabbed the number
one slot.) But all three series have their own special unique pleasures.
Angel does have certain advantages over Buffy in my book: it's darker, has
more of a tragic outlook on life, and it's simply more adult. When you
get to be my age, sometimes you just aren't in the mood for those
teen-oriented seasons of Buffy! So while Buffy edges out Angel in my
personal ratings, both for quality and for winning my heart, it's not a
big difference. Instead of ranking them, I'd prefer to think of them as
two different flavors of my favorite food, both of which I love, each of
which can be my favorite depending on the mood I'm in.
> Thanks to this project, I don't know if I've ever been so involved
> with television as during this whole Buffyverse review session. It's
> about time to move on, channel writing in directions that don't
> involve the Internet. Except that there's some interest in doing
> _Firefly_ soon, so...
Yes! Yes! (No pressure though.)
> It's been a pleasure. Be well.
It's been a pleasure for me too. I'd occasionally hung out on these
newsgroups before, but the AOQ threads were the first really extensive,
detailed discussion of either show that I've actually participated in. I
have to say it's deepened my understanding and appreciation of both Buffy
and Angel. And that, of course, is one of the best things you can do for
a person.
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
One Bit Shy
news:1173336562.6...@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>I always loved _Angel_, for some reason.
Heh. I didn't. Not in BtVS. Through much of BtVS S3 I just wanted him to
break up with Buffy already and move on to his new show. So I was not
especially enthused at the prospect of watching AtS.
But in the back of my head I knew that I would have to some time - just to
fill in the Buffyverse, if for no other reason. Your reviews created the
opportunity, and your gentle nags the impetus.
And I'm glad I did. For the show and for some new experiences here in the
newsgroup. It's been entertaining and rewarding.
I even came to like Angel the character. (Though I'm still not all that
fond of him in BtVS.) Redeeming BtVS characters seems to be an AtS
characteristic. Faith, of course, in the literal sense of redemption. (But
not Harmony - who nobody really wants to see redeemed anyway.) I liked
Cordelia better than you in BtVS, but I sure never expected a journey like
this. And most of all, Wesley - a character I saw as representing the
ruination of the Watchers Council concept in BtVS and loathed for it. It
took me quite a while for me to warm up to him in AtS. Needy Wesley was
fingernails on a blackboard for me. How could I imagine that he would
become one of the greatest characters on either series?
I was spoiled in advance knowing that Cordy would join Angel from the start
and that Wesley would become a regular sometime later. I also knew that an
assortment of BtVS characters would cross over from time to time - including
Faith and Harmony.
As spoilers go, there ain't much spoiling in that. One of the curiosities
for me is how little I knew in advance. Oh, I thought I knew stuff. I had
never made any effort to avoid AtS spoilers as I visited various Buffy web
sites and read through this newsgroup. Anything that illuminated BtVS was
fair game as far as I was concerned. I read through some frightenly long
discussions about AtS concepts of vampire and soul and redemption and so on.
And I developed some pretty curious concepts of AtS characters and themes
and events.
Pretty much all of which I got wrong. Events always surprised me. When I
recognized something retrospectively as something I'd read about before, I
also realized that I had completely misunderstood. It was almost comical.
Sometimes it was. Like how the hundreds of pictures of Bai Ling one could
find at whedon.info (where we see she looks even more bizarre in public than
she did in her show) led me to believe she must be an important character in
AtS - only to see her come and go in one episode and turn out to be one of
the worst characters ever in either series.
And then you, AOQ, the one who was supposed to be avoiding spoilers, kept
popping in with how you actually knew about this or that. Or worse, talked
about how you could see something coming a mile away. I wanted to tear my
hair out. How could I not know these things? Had I gone blind? Or just
plain stupid?
But all the stuff I read in advance was just a jumble to me. Names I didn't
know or even recognize the gender of. Nonsensical events that made me
imagine things the polar opposite of what actually occurred. In a way I
think I may have been more surprised by the show because I had
"theoretically" been spoiled.
Ken(Brooklyn) used to regularly bemoan the terrible thing that was done to
Cordelia. For some reason that stuck with me as I watched the series.
Alas, I didn't know what the thing was or when it happened. I could just
tell that it really, really bothered Ken. So, as I watched the series I
kept stopping to ponder, is this the terrible thing? Is it the ridiculous
pregnancy in Expecting? Or the really creepy parasitic third eye in
Epiphany? Maybe it's the overwhelming pain Cordy goes through in To Shanshu
in L.A. or That Vision Thing. Oh, maybe it's the obscenity of Cordelia
falling for Groo - twice!!
By the time Cordy was getting orgasmic with Connor and I realized that they
could always do something worse to her, I just had to laugh. (In the end,
I'm pretty sure Ken was talking about leaving Cordy in a coma at the end of
S4.)
But throughout it all there was one thing I was sure I knew. After all, I
had read it hundreds of times on websites and in this group. I knew that
the series was going to end in apocalypse. One last glorious fight. So I
sat down to watch Not Fade Away pretty eager to see the final blow-up.
BtVS's ending had its flaws, but it was exciting and spectacular. Imagine
what AtS could do!
And the clock ticked. And Spike read poetry and Gunn helped load a truck.
And then there was a series of Godfather like assassinations - with pretty
tepid fights. And the clock ticked down towards zero. Finally a shadowy
horde approaches and Angel stands in defiance and the credits roll.
Huh?? Where's my damned apocalypse?! I want my apocalypse!! LOL
Don't get me wrong - I like the ending fine. I just had a wildly different
idea of what it was going to be. What I was *sure* it would be.
And that's my main summary of AtS. I was always surprised.
> Basically, I came into ATS with a special affinity for it, before I'd
> even watched the premiere. And that stayed with me through the
> boredom of Season One, the anticlimaxes and misfires of Season Two,
> the character-assassinating side-trips of Season Three, the forays
> into nonsense of Season Four, and the overly-episodic flavor of Season
> Five - there was always enough there that I knew I'd keep watching.
> And the show rewarded me when it started producing some of the
> Buffyverse's best individual episodes in the early Slayer crossover
> episodes. It did it again in late S1 and early S2 when it finally
> figured out what kind of show it wanted to be and produced some
> incredibly memorable moments. And when ATS hit its stride and stayed
> there in Season Three, it was the best reward I could have hoped for
> sticking with it.
My favorite seasons are S2 and S3. I'm not sure which one I liked better.
S2 took me to greater heights. S3 is the most coherent season of either AtS
or BtVS, while remaining aggressive and risk taking. S1 is seriously flawed
by too many poor individual episodes and too much indecision and change in
its core construction. S4 wore me out, even as it pulled me along. When
the season ended I felt like I'd spent a year operating a jackhammer. I'm
not really sure which of the two is at the bottom. They're roughly equal in
my eyes.
S5 is in the middle. It probably has the largest number of good to
excellent individual episodes for any season. Plus it has a really terrific
late season run surrounding Fred's death. The final end works well too,
though it was an uncomfortable lurch through Power Play to get there. But
the structural lack of movement through most of the season drove me bats. I
wasn't particularly impressed with the addition of Spike except for a really
strong mid-season run. And I never warmed up to the concept of running W&H.
To me it was always a lousy idea.
About its episodic nature. I don't believe that the fact it was episodic
was ever a problem. Tons of series - good series - tell stories and then
return to a relatively stable core. (Only relatively because the good ones
also weave slower background stories and character development into that
core.) BtVS did that at least somewhat almost its entire run. In the early
seasons, the episodic structure dominated.
The thing about AtS S5 episodes, though, is that they rarely left that core.
Only Unleashed and The Girl In Question mostly escape it. The action
usually occurred within the confines of W&H, and when it didn't, the story
still pointed back to the character's (usually Angel) relationship to W&H.
I suppose it's admirable in a way to stay so steadfast in support of the
theme, but I thought it got rather oppressive. And if every episode is
going to be about the core it returns to at the end, it sure would be nice
if that core somehow reflected it. The chosen approach made the season feel
like it was dragging even when the individual episodes didn't.
Still it had some great moments and was mostly enjoyable for me.
When I think back on AtS, 3 scenes keep jumping into my memory:
Lilah standing at her window, nervous, terrified, watching fire rain down on
L.A. Awesome in sheer beauty and emotional content.
Faith begging Angel to kill her in the alley. 5X5 remains my favorite
episode of the series.
Drusilla sweeping into the motel room to sire Darla. Shrieking music of
death. Darla suckling at Dru's breast. And Dru staring into Angel's
horrified eyes. One of the most frightening and thrilling moments I've seen
on television.
> Objectively, I don't think ATS is as good a show as _Buffy_, overall.
> But I just might like it more.
I still like BtVS better. It's not particularly close. But AtS is good.
I'm quite glad I watched it. I'll probably watch it again.
> It soon became clear that these threads wouldn't generate the kind of
> traffic that the other show did,
That's OK. I'm sure I made up for it with post length.
> Thanks to this project, I don't know if I've ever been so involved
> with television as during this whole Buffyverse review session.
I'm sure I haven't. I've never engaged in something like this before. I'm
not sure that BtVS is really the best show I've watched. But it's now the
one I know a hundred times more intimately than any other TV show before it.
> It's been a pleasure. Be well.
Same to you. And again - thanks.
OBS
Arbitrar Of Quality
> As spoilers go, there ain't much spoiling in that. One of the curiosities
> for me is how little I knew in advance. Oh, I thought I knew stuff. I had
> never made any effort to avoid AtS spoilers as I visited various Buffy web
> sites and read through this newsgroup. Anything that illuminated BtVS was
> fair game as far as I was concerned. I read through some frightenly long
> discussions about AtS concepts of vampire and soul and redemption and so on.
> And I developed some pretty curious concepts of AtS characters and themes
> and events.
>
> Pretty much all of which I got wrong. Events always surprised me. When I
> recognized something retrospectively as something I'd read about before, I
> also realized that I had completely misunderstood.
[snip]
> But all the stuff I read in advance was just a jumble to me. Names I didn't
> know or even recognize the gender of. Nonsensical events that made me
> imagine things the polar opposite of what actually occurred. In a way I
> think I may have been more surprised by the show because I had
> "theoretically" been spoiled.
Cool. One time I can relate to that is that I knew that someone
called "Illyria" was a beloved character, but had no idea at all that
she'd look so much like Fred.
> About its episodic nature. I don't believe that the fact it was episodic
> was ever a problem. Tons of series - good series - tell stories and then
> return to a relatively stable core. (Only relatively because the good ones
> also weave slower background stories and character development into that
> core.) BtVS did that at least somewhat almost its entire run. In the early
> seasons, the episodic structure dominated.
>
> The thing about AtS S5 episodes, though, is that they rarely left that core.
> Only Unleashed and The Girl In Question mostly escape it. The action
> usually occurred within the confines of W&H, and when it didn't, the story
> still pointed back to the character's (usually Angel) relationship to W&H.
> I suppose it's admirable in a way to stay so steadfast in support of the
> theme, but I thought it got rather oppressive. And if every episode is
> going to be about the core it returns to at the end, it sure would be nice
> if that core somehow reflected it. The chosen approach made the season feel
> like it was dragging even when the individual episodes didn't.
Yeah, that's a very good encapsulation of why Season Five's pacing
feels so off. It'd be a bit jarring compared to the seasons leading
up to it in any case, but the episode structure isn't as big a deal as
what the show does with it.
Glad you enjoyed the series as a (sort of) fellow first-timer.
-AOQ
One Bit Shy
My suspicion is that they were going for something loosely akin to The
Prisoner. But... well, I think you can see the difference.
OBS
Elisi
> I always loved _Angel_, for some reason. Or at least, I always wanted
> to. It's one of those things. It had its broody sensibilities and
> the promise of getting very dark. And it had one of my absolute
> favorite Buffyverse characters as its protagonist, so that was
> attractive. (No, no, I'm not saying *I'm* attracted. I'm just saying
> that I think Angel is fascinating, someone one can watch for years and
> never get bored.) (Maybe I'm a little attracted.) And there's that
> underdog cult appeal too. This seemed like the one of Joss's shows
> that seems to inspire the least amount of fanatical devotion,
> championed by a select subset of Buffyverse fans. I was rooting for
> the new show, to the point where I think I was even secretly just a
> little bit happy whenever ATS got on a roll at the same time as BTVS
> had a weak spell.
Oh I know how you feel. The thing is, that it's far easier to love
Buffy (BtVS) - she's fun and perky and quippy. Angel (AtS) on the
other hand is broody, taciturn and socially inept. But - it seems to
be me that Angel _needs_ to be loved more. *pets him* Because Angel
never gets a break, poor thing. 'Mandy' really is his perfect song:
I remember all my life
Raining down as cold as ice
A shadow of a man
A face through a window
Crying in the night
[...]
I'm standing on the edge of time
I Walked away when love was mine
Caught up in a world of uphill climbing
The tears are in my mind
And nothing is rhyming, oh Mandy
(It's the same impulse that makes me love S6-7 Buffy more than the
earlier seasons.)
And of course Angel is _very_ handsome! :)
> Basically, I came into ATS with a special affinity for it, before I'd
> even watched the premiere. And that stayed with me through the
> boredom of Season One, the anticlimaxes and misfires of Season Two,
> the character-assassinating side-trips of Season Three, the forays
> into nonsense of Season Four, and the overly-episodic flavor of Season
> Five - there was always enough there that I knew I'd keep watching.
I watched BtVS from the start, and then post-Chosen was utterly
bereft. (They'd killed Spike!) Heard that they were going to bring him
back on AtS, so since both series were being shown on Sky One, one ep
a day, I did my major watching-and-recording sessions. And having seen
'Home' already it gave me an odd perspective. F.ex. I was avidly
waiting for Wes and Lilah to hook up.
> And the show rewarded me when it started producing some of the
> Buffyverse's best individual episodes in the early Slayer crossover
> episodes. It did it again in late S1 and early S2 when it finally
> figured out what kind of show it wanted to be and produced some
> incredibly memorable moments. And when ATS hit its stride and stayed
> there in Season Three, it was the best reward I could have hoped for
> sticking with it.
*nods*
> Objectively, I don't think ATS is as good a show as _Buffy_, overall.
> But I just might like it more.
Now this is where things get complicated for me - because I can't
separate my love of BtVS from my love of Spike. Or, more precisely, my
love of the Spike/Buffy story, from that first scene where he stalks
her in The Bronze as 'Stupid Thing' by Nickel is being played:
I'm one step away from crashing to my knees.
One step away from spilling my guts to you.
You see, there's this huge chunk of me missing.
It's gone.
And I can' feel it, I can't feel it,
I can't feel.
And right uptil that final, last "I love you"... That's the heart of
BtVS for me, that's what pulls me in. I enjoy almost everything else
about the show too of course, but I'm unable to judge it
independently.
But AtS I love for it's own sake - for Angel's struggles, for Wesley's
growing darkness, for Cordelia's growth, for Gunn and Lorne (that I
adore just for being them), for Fred (I'm very Fred-like, so I always
loved her), for Lindsey and Lilah in their wonderful shades of grey,
for Darla and her incredible story, for poor Connor who actually got a
happy ending... and so on. (Must try to be brief, I'm rather unwell.)
More than anything however, I think I discovered where my heart truly
lay when the news broke a few days ago that Joss is thinking about
doing a S6 of AtS in comic book form - and I became pretty ecstatic!
I'm still not all that keen on S8 of Buffy (although I'll probably end
up buying them in the end), but S6 of AtS? Oh yes - I want to know
what happened next. (Of course I might hate it... but!)
> I'm just a guy spewing brash impressions, but thanks to the
> quality of the shows, we've gotten some fascinating thoughts from our
> regular and occasional posters - I know I always looked forward to
> reading every post.
Thanks to you I re-watched S7 of BtVS and S5 of AtS (and rather a few
earlier AtS epsiodes), and although it ate up a lot of time, because
of all the thoughts this generated which then required writing down, I
loved it. Especially because it was lovely to see how beautifully both
these seasons held together when knowing where they were going.
> Thanks to this project, I don't know if I've ever been so involved
> with television as during this whole Buffyverse review session. It's
> about time to move on, channel writing in directions that don't
> involve the Internet.
Good luck! And what's your LJ name? You really should start getting
involved in that side of fandom - it's fun. And very pretty. F.ex. you
can find links to a lot of the stuff done in celebration on Buffy's
10th anniversary here:
http://petzipellepingo.livejournal.com/tag/tenth+anniversary
> Except that there's some interest in doing
> _Firefly_ soon, so...
I'd love for you to write about Firefly - although that show does not
generate many thoughts for me except 'Squee!'
> It's been a pleasure. Be well.
>
> -Arbitrar Of Quality
Same here - and I got to be involved in arguments that I never knew
existed back when I first watched the show, happily unaware of this
crazy thing called fandom...
bookworm
letter by joss as does the chosen collection; his final thoughts or
something; I thought I'll post it as a completist...
below start Joss' text:
-----------------------------------
"and she'll have a love interest, a mysterious stranger named Angel who
turns out to be a vampire! But a vampire with a *soul*, cursed to walk
the night in eternal remorse for his evil deeds..."
No wait. That's way too cheesy. Nobody will ever buy that.
Such were my thoughts as I developed the TV show "Buffy the Vampire
Slayer." I knew Angel wouldn't (forgive me the pun) fly. I was frantic.
And then something wonderful happened.
i totally didn't come up with anything better.
So this guy was born, and not only did people buy him, they loved him.
*I* loved him, at least 76 % platonically. I loved him enough to create,
with my partner in crime David Greenwalt, his own show. "Angel". And
then it got weird. Well weirder.
The thing is, "Buffy" was a simple premise that developed into a complex
show. "Angel" was not a simple premise, not for guys like Dave and me.
We couldn't just have a noble, handsome, dark hero rush in and save
various days. We tried. That ain't life. We found that "Angel" needed to
be a show about our darkest journeys, not unlike Buffy except that
Buffy had a grounding: she had a destiny, an arc, a posse. We knew where
she had to go. We had NO IDEA where Angel had to go. And so he went
everywhere, anywhere: up down, good, bad, left, farther left... off the
edge of the world and home for supper and the thing is, it ended up
being as much more about our own lives than Buffy was. We weren't
'chosen' (not for sports, anyway). We had no destiny. We lived on the
edge of chaos, personally, narratively... even as Angel surrounded
himself with more and more of a family (and we found more and more
wonderful actors for David Boreanaz to play against), that central core
of warmth and safety that Buffy enjoyed was missing. The result is
before you in toto: The long, strange trip that is five years in the
life a vampire. Not long enough, I would argue, but plenty with the
strange. For your listy goodness, a few of the moments herein that made
my life worth living:
--Angel locking a roomful of lawyers in with two peckish vampire gals.
--Buffy swearing never to forget her time with Angel, right before she does.
--Faith in the rain, begging Angel to kill her.
--Princess Cordelia.
--Darla's horrified accusation: "While Spike - SPIKE - was out killing a
Slayer, you were busy saving Missionaries!... From *me*. (True emotional
Vampire logic, courtesy of Tim Minear.)
--Lilah dressing up like Fred to seduce Wesley. (Gentlemen, start your
therapists!)
--Any and all karaoke.
--Fred and Wesley, deeply drunk.
--Gunn in the White Room, meeting his match.
--The biggest, bloodiest and most personal Spike/Angel fight we've ever
shot.
--The silliest, most pointless Spike/Angel argument we've ever shot.
--Dude, *puppets!*
With no star to guide us, we sailed into waters filled with dragons and
mermaids and a few really impressive icebergs. We made some of our most
compelling television, reinventing season by season, show by show,
moment to moment. This is our odd little odyssey, and no, we never did
reach the shores of safety, but that's sort of the point. We don't go
through the Hell of existence - the pain, the drama, the meaninlessness
and confusion - because it's safe, or simple, or will end happily now or
ever after. We do it because nobody ever came up with anything better.
So enjoy it. I did.
Joss Whedon
--------------------------------------
Stephen Tempest
> (I'm very Fred-like
>(Must try to be brief, I'm rather unwell.)
Please tell me you haven't been playing around with that mysterious
sarcophagus someone had delivered to your house...
Stephen
Michael Ikeda
news:c5lnv2he6hobq3a47...@4ax.com:
Welcome our new blue-haired overlord...
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Elisi
> Stephen Tempest <step...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote innews:c5lnv2he6hobq3a47...@4ax.com:
>
> > "Elisi" <elis...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >> (I'm very Fred-like
>
> >>(Must try to be brief, I'm rather unwell.)
>
> > Please tell me you haven't been playing around with that mysterious
> > sarcophagus someone had delivered to your house...
>
> Welcome our new blue-haired overlord...
>
> --
> "Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
> astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
> Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Do not think your pathetic fawning will help you when I lay waste to
your world.
Illyria,
God King of the Primordium
An0nemus
> Stephen Tempest <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote in
> news:c5lnv2he6hobq3a47...@4ax.com:
>
>> "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> (I'm very Fred-like
>>
>>> (Must try to be brief, I'm rather unwell.)
>>
>> Please tell me you haven't been playing around with that mysterious
>> sarcophagus someone had delivered to your house...
>>
>
> Welcome our new blue-haired overlord...
I, for one, welcome our new blue-haired overlord
Elisi
> >news:c5lnv2he6hobq3a47...@4ax.com:
>
> >> "Elisi" <elis...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >>> (I'm very Fred-like
>
> >>> (Must try to be brief, I'm rather unwell.)
>
> >> Please tell me you haven't been playing around with that mysterious
> >> sarcophagus someone had delivered to your house...
>
> > Welcome our new blue-haired overlord...
>
> I, for one, welcome our new blue-haired overlord
You'll find your references to modern popular culture tend to be lost
on me.
Illyria
Arbitrar Of Quality
-AOQ