AOQ Review 4-21: "Primeval"
Arbitrar Of Quality
threads.
BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
Season Four, Episode 21: "Primeval"
(or "Then let our powers combine! Earth! Fire! Viiind! Water!
Heart!")
Writer: David Fury
Director: James A. Contner
(This one got posted under the wrong number, so I removed the post.
This is the thread to respond to.)
Weren't we all just dying of suspense after that cliffhanger ending
of Riley approaching Adam? Not exactly "Becoming" here, or even
TYG. To be fair, I was wondering where the offhand comment that he was
central to Walsh's plan was going to fit in. Now we see that he was
even more of a pet project than previously known, and that Adam
wasn't too far off the mark calling him a brother (before he even
knew about this). Adam's speechmaking still leaves a lot to be
desired for me as a viewer, and we get plenty of that throughout the
episode. The one effective part of these sequences, I think, is how
creepy it is seeing Adam able to physically control Riley with vocal
commands. It's the abruptness that makes it work. In the middle of
something else, he just says "sit," and...
Forrest has also been reanimated with new Adam-friendly parts. I
haven't generally had a problem with either Blucas or Roberts as
actors, except when they do confrontation scenes together, at which
time they have the strange ability to complement and feed off each
others' suck. "Your will belongs to us now." "No - that's
not true!" I cringed. Ad-hoc comment on that scene from Mrs.
Quality: "make it end!"
And rounding out the trifecta of important S4 soldiers, I hereby
nominate Maggie Walsh's role here for the title of most pointless
reappearance of a major dead character thus far.
We shine shit as well as can be expected by having our heroes quickly
realize that Spike was trying to make them fight last episode, and that
although there's more to it, the HST threat, as always, comes first.
(Remember that thing before these two episodes about Spike having such
accurate insight into the human mind? Yeah...) The followup
rappelling conversation between Buffy and Willow is interesting in that
it doesn't dissect their problems; it's a rather stilted and
superficial exchange, really, and the episode seems to know that and
deliberately play up the comic aspects (i.e. "going down!" and
"let's never not talk again"). The punchline here (it's not
technically the end of the scene, but it's the funniest part) is both
of them just hugging Xander without going through any of the
speechmaking, and his response to the affection - "oh god, we're
gonna die, aren't we?" Heh. Oh yeah, for those keeping track,
here's another time that Buffy says she loves Willow without being
reciprocated with the same kind of language.
Speaking of love, is this the first time Anya's said anything about
it?
Dumbass Colonel Guy will of course be an obstacle to doing what needs
to be done. He's still lame, but Gellar and the writing work hard to
give her the chance for a good hero's speech. The effect is dulled
some by that horrible see-through shirt/tank top outfit she's
wearing, though. And I don't normally comment on clothing choices,
so you know it was noticeable. Maybe it's intentional, to make her
seem harder to take seriously to DCG, play up the image of the ragtag
Scoobie Gang vs. the organized military operation. But my god, it is
hideous, and spreads its negative sex appeal through the whole climax
of the episode. While we're talking about fashion, though, I like
Willow's animal shirt.
This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
- Two from the same scene: "Are you still upset about that fight you
had with your friends? It was hours ago!" and "you can't
'pfft' that stuff away"
- "Spike's working for Adam?! After all we've done... nah, I can't
even act surprised." And the fact that Giles laughs...
- "Some kind of, I don't know...uranium extracting spell? I know.
I'm reaching"
- Spike trying to run away when discussing definitions of failure
The big battle/bloodbath is kinda flat, even with the explosions and
such. I wonder if the railing-intensive set is the same one they used
for the Hell dimension in "Anne." That's all background, though,
for the final confrontation between Slayer and Big Bad. It's a mix
of cheesiness and badassery, both in overdrive, fighting for control of
the mood of the scene. On the one hand, one can never quite forget
that our heroes are triumphing through the Power Of Friendship (next
episode, I expect that Santa Claus rides in on a rainbow and gives them
all candy). On the other hand, seeing Buffy stand tall, ignoring
machine-gun fire, and rip a monster's uranium heart-thing out of its
chest is pretty cool.
Seriously, how many times are the good guys going to let Spike live for
no reason other than the actor has a contract? This is getting
ridiculous.
Riley should've been bleeding a lot more at the end after cutting out
his implant. Good thinking on his part though, and another nice
moment. From a writer's perspective, I thought the way in which its
location was revealed was a really cool way to introduce pertinent
information without being too obvious about it. (I'd be remiss, of
course, if I didn't point out that there's no single nerve that's
just called "the thoracic nerve.")
According to Mrs. Q., and I agree with her, this could almost have been
a season finale. It would've been a pretty sucky one, though. About
midway through the show, I had a feeling that this was going to be the
obvious big showdown one would expect to see next week, that we'd get
it out of the way and then do something unpredictable. As my rating
reflects, I'm perhaps fonder of "Primeval" than it deserves
(since it does kinda suck), because of that sense of moving on. Adam
was on track to go down as the series' weakest Big Bad (even the
Master was better, he had a certain panache), so it's good to see
that the show has something else in mind for the finale. I'm glad
to see Adam dead, I'm glad to see most of Walsh's secrets revealed
and addressed, and I'm glad to see the Initiative arc literally get
buried. The government guy's voiceover is an efficient way to use
minimal screentime to quickly sum up both the aftermath and
inform/remind us what the Initiative's purpose was in the first place
(to control an army of hostiles, and to let Walsh try out her big
ideas).
If I may be permitted to wax pretentious, "Primeval" seems to be
about peeling back the surface layer and seeing what's underneath.
The Slaypack were superficially fighting because of an outside
instigator, Doug Petr... er, I mean Spike. But even once they figure
that out, there're issues behind that surface. Narratively speaking,
Adam and the Initiative seemed to be the central story and the enemy
that the season was building towards, but this episode peels them away,
paving the way for, well, I have no idea. What's beneath this layer?
So...
One-sentence summary: Not a particularly good episode, but good for
the series.
AOQ rating: Decent
[Season Four so far:
1) "The Freshman" - Good
2) "Living Conditions" - Decent
3) "The Harsh Light Of Day" - Good
4) "Fear Itself" - Decent
5) "Beer Bad" - Weak
6) "Wild At Heart" - Excellent
7) "The Initiative" - Decent
8) "Pangs" - Good
9) "Something Blue" - Good
10) "Hush" - Good
11) "Doomed" - Weak
12) "A New Man" - Decent
13) "The I In Team" - Good
14) "Goodbye Iowa" - Good
15) "This Year's Girl" - Good
16) "Who Are You?" - Good
17) "Superstar" - Decent
18) "Where The Wild Things Are" - Decent
19) "New Moon Rising" - Excellent
20) "The Yoko Factor" - Weak
21) "Primeval" - Decent]
Horace LaBadie
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
SNIP
> I wonder if the railing-intensive set is the same one they used
> for the Hell dimension in "Anne."
This was shot in an actual hanger where the Stealth aircraft was
developed. "Anne" was shot in the Buffy warehouse, the old factory
redressed.
SNIP
> Seriously, how many times are the good guys going to let Spike live for
> no reason other than the actor has a contract? This is getting
> ridiculous.
Common complaint, but they were really, really tired this time, so it
can be forgiven. Right?
HWL
Mike Zeares
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Four, Episode 21: "Primeval"
> (or "Then let our powers combine! Earth! Fire! Viiind! Water!
> Heart!")
> Writer: David Fury
> Director: James A. Contner
>
> (This one got posted under the wrong number, so I removed the post.
> This is the thread to respond to.)
>
> haven't generally had a problem with either Blucas or Roberts as
> actors, except when they do confrontation scenes together, at which
> time they have the strange ability to complement and feed off each
> others' suck. "Your will belongs to us now." "No - that's
> not true!" I cringed. Ad-hoc comment on that scene from Mrs.
> Quality: "make it end!"
Thank Ghu for the fast-forward button, is all I'm saying. You'll be
prepared the next time. I generally hit the FF any time I see
Initiative guys on the screen without Buffy. I mean throughout S4.
> The big battle/bloodbath is kinda flat, even with the explosions and
> such.
Oh, good, it's not just me. I've always been rather underwhelmed by
it. The music's all, "big-ass fight!" while it all looks very
"stunt-y," if that makes sense. The explosions in particular were
very obviously those fire-shooty things. It was very well-coordinated,
I guess.
> I wonder if the railing-intensive set is the same one they used
> for the Hell dimension in "Anne."
No, it was the same "Skunk Works" set they always used for the
Initiative. "Anne" was in an abandoned newspaper printing floor, I
think.
> Seriously, how many times are the good guys going to let Spike live for
> no reason other than the actor has a contract? This is getting
> ridiculous.
You aren't the first to ask that, and no doubt won't be the last.
(I'd be remiss, of
> course, if I didn't point out that there's no single nerve that's
> just called "the thoracic nerve.")
This is the show that had Buffy get the flu by drinking it.
> If I may be permitted to wax pretentious, "Primeval" seems to be
> about peeling back the surface layer and seeing what's underneath.
> The Slaypack were superficially fighting because of an outside
> instigator, Doug Petr... er, I mean Spike. But even once they figure
> that out, there're issues behind that surface. Narratively speaking,
> Adam and the Initiative seemed to be the central story and the enemy
> that the season was building towards, but this episode peels them away,
> paving the way for, well, I have no idea. What's beneath this layer?
True love?
-- Mike Zeares
Daniel Damouth
news:1148616415.3...@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these
> review threads.
[...]
> Seriously, how many times are the good guys going to let Spike
> live for no reason other than the actor has a contract? This is
> getting ridiculous.
Welcome to the show.
[...]
>On the other hand, seeing Buffy stand tall, ignoring
>machine-gun fire, and rip a monster's uranium heart-thing out of its
>chest is pretty cool.
Coolest thing about the episode, without a doubt.
Please, just post the next review immediately.
-Dan Damouth
eli...@gmail.com
-- Poor Forrest looked like someone went nuts on him with an
industrial-strength stapler.
Whole review here in case you're curious. No spoilers:
http://www.billiedoux.com/buffy4x21.html
Kevin
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> Riley should've been bleeding a lot more at the end after cutting out
> his implant. Good thinking on his part though
Ummm... When Bland Coldcuts (my favorite of the old nicknames...
sorry, I couldn't resist) managed to cut into his own chest, yank the
chip from the nerve, and continue fighting -- without, for example,
falling on his ass in agonizing pain -- I think I was dumbfounded. OK,
drugs -- I get that -- but c'mon. Just a bit too much for the viewer
to take.
You mentioned Marsters' contract absurdly increasing Spike's "life"
expectancy... The contract I'd like is the one the government gives to
the concrete company. What a job!
--Kevin
burt...@hotmail.com
> realize that Spike was trying to make them fight last episode, and that
> although there's more to it, the HST threat, as always, comes first.
> (Remember that thing before these two episodes about Spike having such
> accurate insight into the human mind? Yeah...) The followup
> rappelling conversation between Buffy and Willow is interesting in that
> it doesn't dissect their problems; it's a rather stilted and
> superficial exchange, really, and the episode seems to know that and
> deliberately play up the comic aspects (i.e. "going down!" and
> "let's never not talk again").
Ah, the make-up in the elevator shaft scene. I remember it well. This
was the moment I started to lose faith in Joss. I still believed in him
after the silliness of "Beer Bad," the awfulness of "The Initiative,"
the general crapiness of the entire Initiative storyline, and even the
godawful sexathon of "Where the Wild Things Are." But this.... I'm
supposed to believe that after everything that went wrong between Buffy
and her friends in season 4 (or at least, everything they tried to
portray as going wrong), one group hug and suddenly everything's all
better? Um, no.
This was such a cheap cop-out. Instead of taking the opportunity to
resolve the very real issues between Buffy and her friends (or having
them admit they can't be resolved and go from there), Joss decided to
just invent some completely new issues and resolve those instead. The
end result is that there's no development at all on the long-term
problems between the friends; the characters haven't dealt with
anything real. There's no movement. The happy ending here is totally
fake.
> Seriously, how many times are the good guys going to let Spike live for
> no reason other than the actor has a contract? This is getting
> ridiculous.
A-men.
> Riley should've been bleeding a lot more at the end after cutting out
> his implant. Good thinking on his part though, and another nice
> moment.
??
This was quite possibly the silliest thing in the entire episode.
The idea that Riley could cut himself open and rip the chip out of his
body without passing out is utterly beyond belief. Even assuming that
the nerve the chip is attached to isn't a critical one, Riley had to
cut through some major muscle groups, feel around for the chip, get a
grip on it (not easy since everything is covered in blood) and then rip
it out of his body. And not only does he not pass out from pain and
blood loss after this, he actually manages to stand up and fight!
Sorry, but that's way past my threshold for suspension of disbelief.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> body without passing out is utterly beyond belief. Even assuming that
are you saying it should be an itchy fatal wound instead?
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
Apteryx
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> nominate Maggie Walsh's role here for the title of most pointless
> reappearance of a major dead character thus far.
Odd. I assume it was just for old times sake. Or she had been promised
one more appearance on BtVS. Beware of Whedon promises.
>
> Speaking of love, is this the first time Anya's said anything about
> it?
Interesting, as is Xander's response.
>
> The big battle/bloodbath is kinda flat, even with the explosions and
> such. I wonder if the railing-intensive set is the same one they used
> for the Hell dimension in "Anne." That's all background, though,
> for the final confrontation between Slayer and Big Bad. It's a mix
> of cheesiness and badassery, both in overdrive, fighting for control of
> the mood of the scene. On the one hand, one can never quite forget
> that our heroes are triumphing through the Power Of Friendship (next
> episode, I expect that Santa Claus rides in on a rainbow and gives them
> all candy).
Lucky guess :)
>On the other hand, seeing Buffy stand tall, ignoring
> machine-gun fire, and rip a monster's uranium heart-thing out of its
> chest is pretty cool.
Pretty derivative, but still the most memorable scene from the episode
> Seriously, how many times are the good guys going to let Spike live for
> no reason other than the actor has a contract? This is getting
> ridiculous.
Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you
give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in
judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends. V unir abg zhpu
ubcr gung Fcvxr pna or pherq orsber ur'f qhfgrq, ohg gurer vf n punapr
bs vg. Naq ur vf obhaq hc jvgu gur sngr bs gur frevrf. Zl urneg gryyf
zr gung ur unf fbzr cneg gb cynl lrg, sbe tbbq be vyy, orsber gur raq;
naq jura gung pbzrf, gur cvgl bs Ohssl znl ehyr gur sngr bs znal
>
> If I may be permitted to wax pretentious, "Primeval" seems to be
> about peeling back the surface layer and seeing what's underneath.
> The Slaypack were superficially fighting because of an outside
> instigator, Doug Petr... er, I mean Spike. But even once they figure
> that out, there're issues behind that surface. Narratively speaking,
> Adam and the Initiative seemed to be the central story and the enemy
> that the season was building towards, but this episode peels them away,
> paving the way for, well, I have no idea. What's beneath this layer?
The real story is of course that Joss Whedon sucks at maths. After this
episode went to air, he was heard to say "What, that's only 21? I
counted 22!"
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Not a particularly good episode, but good for
> the series.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
That's about right. An air of lameness hangs over this episode. Adam's
plan (to set up as even as possible a battle between humans and demons
to get himself the maximum crop of human and demon body parts) has got
to be the lamest super-villain master plan yet (including Mr Burns'
plan to blot out the sun over Springfield). But there is some good
stuff, as the gang realise they have been had, and that scene with the
final confrontation with Adam is pretty cool. At least visually. The
idea of it seems - well, I had been worried earlier about the influence
of Charmed on BtVS, and here they are, beating Adam with the Power of
Four. For me its the 116th best BtVS epsisode, 18th best in Season 4.
Apteryx
Paul Hyett
:
>A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
>threads.
>
>BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
>Season Four, Episode 21: "Primeval"
>(or "Then let our powers combine! Earth! Fire! Viiind! Water!
>Heart!")
>Writer: David Fury
>Director: James A. Contner
>
>(This one got posted under the wrong number, so I removed the post.
>This is the thread to respond to.)
I still saw the original mis-numbered post.
>Dumbass Colonel Guy will of course be an obstacle to doing what needs
>to be done. He's still lame, but Gellar and the writing work hard to
>give her the chance for a good hero's speech. The effect is dulled
>some by that horrible see-through shirt/tank top outfit she's
>wearing, though. And I don't normally comment on clothing choices,
>so you know it was noticeable.
Not by me.
>
>This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
>- Two from the same scene: "Are you still upset about that fight you
>had with your friends? It was hours ago!" and "you can't
>'pfft' that stuff away"
>- "Spike's working for Adam?! After all we've done... nah, I can't
>even act surprised."
That was a good one.
>
>Seriously, how many times are the good guys going to let Spike live for
>no reason other than the actor has a contract?
No other reason other than he's a very popular character, you mean?
--
Paul 'Charts Fan' Hyett
eli...@gmail.com
>ubcr gung Fcvxr pna or pherq orsber ur'f qhfgrq, ohg gurer vf n punapr
>bs vg. Naq ur vf obhaq hc jvgu gur sngr bs gur frevrf. Zl urneg gryyf
>zr gung ur unf fbzr cneg gb cynl lrg, sbe tbbq be vyy, orsber gur raq;
>naq jura gung pbzrf, gur cvgl bs Ohssl znl ehyr gur sngr bs znal
Abj *gung* vf n tbbq dhbgr! :)
eli...@gmail.com
>fake.
vague disclaimer
"Apteryx" <Apte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> to be the lamest super-villain master plan yet (including Mr Burns'
> plan to blot out the sun over Springfield)
Lrnu. Jub'q rire guvax oybggvat bhg gur fha jbhyq or n tbbq cyna.
Bu.
--
A vague disclaimer is nobody's friend
vague disclaimer
burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
> one group hug and suddenly everything's all
> better?
Ncneg sebz gur ovg jurer vg jnfa'g.
vague disclaimer
<mair_fheal-6E1BB...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > The idea that Riley could cut himself open and rip the chip out of his
> > body without passing out is utterly beyond belief. Even assuming that
>
> are you saying it should be an itchy fatal wound instead?
*gfx* zbegny.
kenm47
to this point, it still contains my 2 favorite episodes: TYG/WAY, and
another top one, Hush,.
This ep had some moments, but really did not bode well for the future,
IMO.
Decent is as good as it gets, IMO. A major let down for a big bad arc
ender.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Apteryx
news:l64o-1rj5-5CC93...@mercury.nildram.net...
> In article <1148628566.4...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> "Apteryx" <Apte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> to be the lamest super-villain master plan yet (including Mr Burns'
>> plan to blot out the sun over Springfield)
>
> Lrnu. Jub'q rire guvax oybggvat bhg gur fha jbhyq or n tbbq cyna.
Vaqrrq, jub jbhyq.
Gubhtu gb tvir gur jevgref bs Gur Fvzcfbaf perqvg, gurl jrer pyrneyl njner
bs gur vaurerag nofheqvgvrf, naq cynlrq vg sbe ynhtuf
--
Apteryx
eli...@gmail.com
bs Natry vf gur cvaanpyr bs gur ragver 'irefr (naq lrf gung vapyhqrf
OgIF!).
vague disclaimer
"kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> This ep had some moments, but really did not bode well for the future,
> IMO.
It peaked with Wh<CLICK>...It peaked with Wh<CLICK>...It peaked with
Wh<CLICK>...It peaked with Wh<CLICK>...It peaked with Wh<CLICK>...
Espen Schjønberg
> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in these review
> threads.
>
>
> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER
> Season Four, Episode 21: "Primeval"
> (or "Then let our powers combine! Earth! Fire! Viiind! Water!
> Heart!")
> Writer: David Fury
> Director: James A. Contner
> Weren't we all just dying of suspense after that cliffhanger ending
> of Riley approaching Adam?
It got me hoping there, for a moment. Of course, it did not mean he was
about to be slayen anytime soon :-(
> The one effective part of these sequences, I think, is how
> creepy it is seeing Adam able to physically control Riley with vocal
> commands. It's the abruptness that makes it work. In the middle of
> something else, he just says "sit," and...
I hate this. Have Riley lost his free will, (let us assume he has ever
had any), or hasn't he? If he can be controlled, I don't want to see him
"fight" it with ugly facial expressions. (sorry for, given this actor, a
combined oxymoronic redundancy there.)
> Forrest [...]
>
> And rounding out the trifecta of important S4 soldiers, I hereby
> nominate Maggie Walsh's role here for the title of most pointless
> reappearance of a major dead character thus far.
I so hated this zombies. Not even B-class fun here, just Wrong. (Imagine
Drusilla picking flowers to pieces here.)
I think it is so sad the spell in this episode - possibly the coolest
effect ever, with Combo-Buffy - is cut to pieces with pictures of the
sillyest monsters (those zombies) and the worst "I can take control of
my own life" -scene (Riley) ever.
> AOQ rating: Decent
I would give it Good for the ComboBuffy, and for this single ComboBuffy
line:
"You could never hope to grasp the source of our power."
I loved that, and I will love it forever.
--
Espen
"You could never hope to grasp the source of our power."
-Buffy. The Vampire slayer.
Apteryx
news:1148644942....@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>V guvax V zragvbarq guvf orsber, ohg V xabj fbzrbar sbe jub Frnfba Sbhe
> bs Natry vf gur cvaanpyr bs gur ragver 'irefr (naq lrf gung vapyhqrf
> OgIF!).
Jryy vg jbhyq or n qhyy jbeyq vs rirelbar unq gur fnzr gnfgr. Whfg yvxr gur
jbeyq jbhyq or gung vggyr ovg yrff vagrerfgvat jvgubhg crbcyr jub gubhtug
gurl jrer Ancbyrba
--
Apteryx
Elisi
She has a very... different style.
KenM47
>In article <1148641295.8...@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> "kenm47" <ken...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> This ep had some moments, but really did not bode well for the future,
>> IMO.
>
>It peaked with Wh<CLICK>...It peaked with Wh<CLICK>...It peaked with
>Wh<CLICK>...It peaked with Wh<CLICK>...It peaked with Wh<CLICK>...
IMO, it peaked with TYG/WAY. I don't believe I've ever said different.
Some good stuff after? You bet. And a lot of crap.
Ken (Brooklyn)
Exp315
> According to Mrs. Q., and I agree with her, this could almost have been
> a season finale. It would've been a pretty sucky one, though. About
> midway through the show, I had a feeling that this was going to be the
> obvious big showdown one would expect to see next week, that we'd get
> it out of the way and then do something unpredictable.
Didn't I see you post in another thread that you already watched
"Restless"? Was that before or after you wrote this review? :-)
Other stuff:
I wasn't bothered by Riley cutting the chip out of his chest. I'm not
sure why it bothered some other posters so much. I was a little more
concerned about how a chip in his chest could control all his motor
functions, including speech! But I guess it would have been a bit much
to have him cut open his own skull (or perhaps go in through the eye
socket? Hmmm, now there's a scene!). :-)
I also don't think it's that unbelievable that close friends with a lot
of history between them could bury their significant differences with a
group hug just before going into a battle where they could all die.
Doesn't mean those differences will necessarily stay buried if they
survive.
As others have mentioned, the Initiative set was the Lockheed
Skunkworks hanger where the original Stealth fighter was built.
As for the cool but derivative special effects in the final Buffy vs.
Adam fight, Joss Whedon firmly denied that they were ripping off
anything else, and especially not T** M****x. :-)
burt...@hotmail.com
Well if that was the point, they did a lousy job of portraying it that
way. Both the written dialogue and the way the scene was played by the
actors seemed to indicate that we should believe that this was a
genuine moment of making up and a resolution to the problems between
them. Which, I suppose, it was - but only to the problems that got made
up in the last episode. The real, long-term problems weren't even
addressed (except for a bit of lip service to the idea that they'd
drifted apart over the past year, but as I've said before, the handling
of the "drifting apart" idea was inconsistent at best), yet from this
scene, we were clearly supposed to think that everything's just fine
and dandy between Buffy and her friends again.
KenM47
EGK
wrote:
>Seriously, how many times are the good guys going to let Spike live for
>no reason other than the actor has a contract? This is getting
>ridiculous.
This has to be the best quote to read from all your reviews in the category
of "Misery loves company". :)
>
>[Season Four so far:
>1) "The Freshman" - Good
>2) "Living Conditions" - Decent
>3) "The Harsh Light Of Day" - Good
>4) "Fear Itself" - Decent
>5) "Beer Bad" - Weak
>6) "Wild At Heart" - Excellent
>7) "The Initiative" - Decent
>8) "Pangs" - Good
>9) "Something Blue" - Good
>10) "Hush" - Good
>11) "Doomed" - Weak
>12) "A New Man" - Decent
>13) "The I In Team" - Good
>14) "Goodbye Iowa" - Good
>15) "This Year's Girl" - Good
>16) "Who Are You?" - Good
>17) "Superstar" - Decent
>18) "Where The Wild Things Are" - Decent
>19) "New Moon Rising" - Excellent
>20) "The Yoko Factor" - Weak
>21) "Primeval" - Decent]
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"There would be a lot more civility in this world if people
didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you"
(Calvin and Hobbes)
Sam
Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>
> Seriously, how many times are the good guys going to let Spike live for
> no reason other than the actor has a contract? This is getting
> ridiculous.
>
Letting Spike live is irrational, but it's irrational in a way that I
can buy the heroes being. Spike can't directly hurt anyone. He
periodically saves them -- just to save his own skin, sure, but it's
still bizarrely atypical vampire behavior. Combine that with the time
they've spent with him, and the fact that for a monstrous evil demon
Spike is sort of a mensch, and it all comes down to the fact that they
know him. On some level, they all think of Spike as a person, even
though he isn't one.
So even though on a purely rational level there's no good reason for
them not to kill him, I can see how the others, who think with their
emotions more than their heads, can't quite bring themselves to kill a
helpless, mostly harmless, sort of pathetic defanged vampire.
The big question mark is Giles. Giles can be quite ruthless when
necessary, and he does think with his head more than his heart. So why
doesn't he kill Spike? I think it's either because he respects that it
should be Buffy's decision, or because he thinks Spike could
potentially be useful -- he's a dangerous fighter who can still (and
only) kill demons.
--Sam
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Whole review here in case you're curious. No spoilers:
> http://www.billiedoux.com/buffy4x21.html
She has interesting reviews, although I won't read too many for fear of
spoilage. But her tastes are, shall we say, just a tad different than
mine.
-AOQ
Lord Usher
@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> As for the cool but derivative special effects in the final Buffy vs.
> Adam fight, Joss Whedon firmly denied that they were ripping off
> anything else, and especially not T** M****x. :-)
Actually, I think what Joss said was that he specifically asked the
stunts/effects guys not to ape THE MATRIX, and was quite displeased when
they did it anyway.
--
Lord Usher
"I'm here to kill you, not to judge you."
Espen Schjønberg
Actually, a different thing: what kind of versions are there of this
episode?
I notice when this is sent on the local channel, they do at least cut
the single word "Kur" when Buffy makes the projectiles to doves. (or
what it was.)
--
Espen
Arbitrar Of Quality
It was the logical followup to the events of "The Yoko Factor." Which
gives me another chance to complain about TYF, because that was really
the episode that trivialized the long-term stuff by turning it into a
big stupid family squabble. Given that setup, the only followup that
makes sense here is for their affection to overcome the resentment over
anything that was said, particularly given the impending death
situation. I didn't see it as as a solve-all scene, I saw it as a
moment of putting aside their open hostility and pushing the underlying
problems to the side. From there they could fester again, or they
could be talked through more quietly after everything's over.
As for whether or not this whole exercise is kinda a piss-poor payoff
for the S4 arc, well, that's left to everyone's personal opinion (hint:
yes). The underlying issues mostly still exist, if the writers ever
want to take another crack at addressing them next episode or next year
or whatever.
>From upthread:
"The idea that Riley could cut himself open and rip the chip out of his
body without passing out is utterly beyond belief. Even assuming that
the nerve the chip is attached to isn't a critical one,
Riley had to cut through some major muscle groups, feel around for the
chip, get a grip on it (not easy since everything is covered in blood)
and then rip it out of his body. And not only does he not pass out from
pain and blood loss after this, he actually manages to stand up and
fight! Sorry, but that's way past my threshold for suspension of
disbelief."
But remember, he's on drugs. And they make certain never to tell us
what kind of drugs (maybe something Walsh cooked up herself), so
they're immune to nitpicking there.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> Didn't I see you post in another thread that you already watched
> "Restless"? Was that before or after you wrote this review? :-)
Before. This one sat on my hard drive for a few days, same as the
"Restless" review is doing now. I try to have a rough draft of each
review written up before I watch the next episode in that series.
-AOQ
burt...@hotmail.com
I don't think it played out that way on screen, and I don't think it
was meant to play out that way. I mean, look at the dialogue:
Buffy: You can tell me anything. I love you. You're my best friend.
Willow: Me, too. I love you too.
And then:
Buffy: Xander.
Willow: Oh, wonderful Xander!
Buffy: You know we love you, right?
Willow: We totally do.
---
That conversation definitely doesn't have the air of people temporarily
putting aside their problems with each other in order to work together
to deal with an impending threat. We're talking big, emotional
declarations of love and group hugs here. Hell, the only thing missing
is a rainbow in the background.
> >From upthread:
> "The idea that Riley could cut himself open and rip the chip out of his
> body without passing out is utterly beyond belief. Even assuming that
> the nerve the chip is attached to isn't a critical one,
> Riley had to cut through some major muscle groups, feel around for the
> chip, get a grip on it (not easy since everything is covered in blood)
> and then rip it out of his body. And not only does he not pass out from
> pain and blood loss after this, he actually manages to stand up and
> fight! Sorry, but that's way past my threshold for suspension of
> disbelief."
>
> But remember, he's on drugs. And they make certain never to tell us
> what kind of drugs (maybe something Walsh cooked up herself), so
> they're immune to nitpicking there.
Hadn't Riley stopped taking Walsh's drugs several episodes prior to
this one?
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> what kind of drugs (maybe something Walsh cooked up herself), so
> they're immune to nitpicking there.
watch the serenity movie?
one of the characters get a stab wound
that shouldve knocked them flat with shock
and then possibly bled to death
fiction has a long tradition of ignoring the real effects of trauma
real people faint after major wounds
not because their sissy boys or squeamish
but because the body involuntarily rearranges the blood supply
with a loss of pressiure to the brain
but thats not manly so few show the effects of shock
arf meow arf - nsa fodder
ny dnrqn greebevfz ahpyrne obzo vena gnyvona ovt oebgure
if you meet buddha on the usenet killfile him
One Bit Shy
news:1148616415.3...@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Weren't we all just dying of suspense after that cliffhanger ending
> of Riley approaching Adam? Not exactly "Becoming" here, or even
> TYG.
Well, I did wonder why Riley had left Buffy when he did, and was surprised
to find that he was controlled by a chip. (Made me recall Xander and then
Buffy trying to examine his head for signs of an implant.) And I liked it.
But just because something is left unresolved at the end of an episode isn't
enough reason to slap a to be continued on it. From my point of view, this
is a single episode arc ender.
> To be fair, I was wondering where the offhand comment that he was
> central to Walsh's plan was going to fit in. Now we see that he was
> even more of a pet project than previously known, and that Adam
> wasn't too far off the mark calling him a brother (before he even
> knew about this).
I still wonder what exactly his purpose in her plan was. Why did she need
him? Whatever that answer may be, we at least do now better understand why
she was so attentive to him (make me proud) and worked to keep him close to
her.
> Adam's speechmaking still leaves a lot to be
> desired for me as a viewer, and we get plenty of that throughout the
> episode.
But he has such a mellifluous voice! Adam does seem a bit of a dud as a
season's Big Bad. Where's the real tension between him and the Scoobies?
How does he really matter to anything beyond being tougher than the every
day demon and vampire? I'll come back to that...
Even so, I confess I enjoyed the character in itself. There's that voice.
And I thought his combo human/demon/machine body looked pretty cool.
(Unlike poor Forrest.) And I got a kick out of his constant musings on the
world. All the variations of, "That would be interesting." And moments
like, "I've been thinking about vampires." This mix of knowledge and
intelligence with the naivety of someone new to it all makes me chuckle.
I'm a little reminded of the Animal House scene when, I think it was a
stoned Pinto, muses about universes within universes in the awed tones of a
freshman revelation.
> The one effective part of these sequences, I think, is how
> creepy it is seeing Adam able to physically control Riley with vocal
> commands. It's the abruptness that makes it work. In the middle of
> something else, he just says "sit," and...
Flashback to This Year's Girl:
Buffy: You seem a little...somewhere else. Is there anything I can do?
Riley: Give me an order. That's what I do isn't it? Follow orders.
Flashback to The Yoko Factor (when Buffy and Angel go into the hall, leaving
Riley behind):
Riley: Not moving a muscle.
The control of Riley is creepy - reminds me a tad of the Master's initial
control of Buffy. One of the cleaner depictions in the episode. From a
plausibility standpoint it gets a little shakey as Riley gradually overcomes
the control and, especially, as he rips out the chip. But by Sunnydale
tradition, it makes sense for his struggle to think and act for himself to
manifest itself physically that way. So I won't worry so much about why he
didn't pass out in pain and bleed to death.
> Forrest has also been reanimated with new Adam-friendly parts. I
> haven't generally had a problem with either Blucas or Roberts as
> actors, except when they do confrontation scenes together, at which
> time they have the strange ability to complement and feed off each
> others' suck. "Your will belongs to us now." "No - that's
> not true!" I cringed. Ad-hoc comment on that scene from Mrs.
> Quality: "make it end!"
I think the Forrest depiction probably is the weakest part of the episode.
Awful costume. And that affected flat deep vocie choice did not work. It's
a shame, since conceptually his part matters. Forrest is the Initiative's
great victim, representative of what they produce more so than Adam. And
he's Riley's mirror - what he would have been destined for had he not broken
free. I think the failure to better develop Forrest throughout the
Initiative arc is a big factor in why that story didn't come through as well
as it might have.
In a very loose sense, Forrest is the Initiative's Jenny - and Riley's
Faith. Obviously not in detail, but in intended emotional connection and
resonance. The show never succeeded in getting inside the Initiative deep
enough to really show that. That failure really obscures the Initiative's
function as the parallel family and comrades in arms to the Scoobies. It
also removes most of the emotional content of that arc. What, after all,
does the Initiative ever really mean to the Scoobies beyond today's
complication? Not bloody much. Does the Initiative really change them?
Compare their influence to that of Anya, Tara & Faith. The bulk of the
drama is within the Initiative and we're mostly limited to what Riley brings
out of it.
I think that's the core of the Initiative story's problem - it doesn't
matter much to the main characters of the series. There's a little bit of
residue. Spike's chip does matter, but that happened way back in Episode 7
and matters as an artifact personally affecting him, not for it's connection
to the Initiative. And Buffy has a new bofyfriend - the one that few fans
seem to like, and the one Buffy has yet to say I love you to. How different
does Buffy really seem to be for having Riley? Beyond that - well, is there
a beyond that?
Just Riley, as far as I can tell. Riley clearly is deeply affected by the
whole Initiative story. He's the great sufferer of the season. He's the
one with his way of life ripped from him, his whole understanding of the
world and himself shown to be a lie. His best friend in the world first
became estranged from him, then killed, then re-animated as the corrupted
monstrous representation of what Riley was supposed to be himself. And he
spent time as a lab animal and had a mind controlling chip implanted within
himself. Phew.
And, yet, he's somehow supposed to stay the calm, stable Iowa farmboy
throughout. I don't think the two mixed very well. He got handed a
neurotic's life and promptly burried it in gee whiz. That's more than a
performance issue. (Xander certainly would be quick to point out that
there's no performance issue here. ;-) I think the writers created a
character that could not express all they needed it to. Way too much of the
season was placed on Riley's shoulders.
And finally, the infamous question that seems too often ignored this year.
Where's the Buffy?
> And rounding out the trifecta of important S4 soldiers, I hereby
> nominate Maggie Walsh's role here for the title of most pointless
> reappearance of a major dead character thus far.
Flashback to the Freshman:
Professor Walsh: Those of you who fall under my good graces will come to
know me as Maggie. Those of you who don't will come to know me by the name
my TAs use, and think I don't know about, 'The Evil Bitch Monster of Death.'
Flashback to Hush (dream sequence):
Walsh: Be a good boy.
> We shine shit as well as can be expected
Come on. Tell us how you really feel. Heh.
> by having our heroes quickly
> realize that Spike was trying to make them fight last episode, and that
> although there's more to it, the HST threat, as always, comes first.
> (Remember that thing before these two episodes about Spike having such
> accurate insight into the human mind? Yeah...)
Oh, he does have insight. There's just this pesky blind spot...
I suggest thinking of Spike as a controlled lab experiment to define the
boundries of the soul.
> The followup
> rappelling conversation between Buffy and Willow is interesting in that
> it doesn't dissect their problems; it's a rather stilted and
> superficial exchange, really, and the episode seems to know that and
> deliberately play up the comic aspects (i.e. "going down!" and
> "let's never not talk again"). The punchline here (it's not
> technically the end of the scene, but it's the funniest part) is both
> of them just hugging Xander without going through any of the
> speechmaking, and his response to the affection - "oh god, we're
> gonna die, aren't we?" Heh.
The awkwardness that struck me was simply the attempt to converse while
rappelling. The rapelling was -uh- less than convincing. It reminds me of
the rapelling scenes in the old Batman TV show.
I don't know what bothered you about the conversation itself. Worked for
me. And playing up the humor is hardly out of the ordinary for this series.
Since the whole friendship/breakup thing seems to be a general bone of
contention (not just yours), this seems a good place to hit upon it. It's
not clear to me from your comments if you think this show is supposed to
have resolved all of that, but I do observe others suggesting that's its
intent. Create a big problem out of nothing and then - snip, snap - all
fixed.
I don't see it that way. To begin with, because they clearly have not dealt
with all, or even most of the issues identified. They couldn't if they
wanted to. This episode occurs the very next day after the Yoko factor, and
the identified sources of the problem have developed over a whole year.
They don't know how to fit Tara and Anya into their group - they aren't even
part of this episode's resolution. They don't know what to do about the
forces leading them to drift apart. They don't even mention Giles issue -
who if you note never appeared in the group hug in the elevator shaft. They
got through one day this episode. No more. We're going to have to wait a
while to find out how or if the remaining problems will be addressed.
Anya: Are you still upset about that fight you had with your friends? It
was hours ago! Get over it.
Xander: Anya, you--Forget it.
Anya: So, they all think you're lost, directionless loser with no plans for
his future? Pfft.
Xander: Anya, you can't "pfft" that stuff away.
That's not to say that what happened this episode is trivial. On the
contrary. It makes a lot of difference.
First they remove the Spike influence. (Incidentally, I really like how
that scene is staged with them standing apart and opposed to each other.)
They're obviously still uncomfortable - the feelings aren't all gone - but
the embarrassment alone moves them into exploring the Adam problem. Then
something key happens. When they all actually focus on the problem at hand,
everybody contributes usefully. But it's Buffy who puts the pieces together
to figure out what Adam is up to - establishing again why she's the leader.
This isn't some grand revelation - they've been there many times before.
But it's a necessary reminder to them.
That continues into Giles apartment. (I like how Buffy sits there
sharpening a stake.) Forgetting the specific conent of the spell for a
moment, the point here is to address Buffy's challenge at the end of The
Yoko Factor. What can you do? There really isn't a question of them
participating when they have a job to do.
The elevator shaft scene is about acknowledging the problem, confessing
one's own part, accepting responsibility for it, and forgiving each other.
It's mainly a Willow/Buffy thing with Xander drawn in really quickly. Is
Xander that easy? Well, yes, actually, for this purpose. He really doesn't
have special abilities - and, well, that issue was dealt with back in the
Zeppo. All he really wants is to participate - be part of the group. So
the hug is enough to communicate what Willow and Buffy had to talk through.
This is nice attitude adjusting, but it doesn't solve the underlying
problems either. And Giles is left out of it. His problem is a bit
different and more difficult.
The biggest element is the combat in the Initiative along with the spell.
The spell is obviously heavily metaphorical and, at first blush, kind of
obvious. But - Sunnydale again. Metaphor as literal physical
manifestation. It's quite true to the series tradition I believe. It's
also a potent solution to a difficult monster. Besides, the spell looks
really cool.
The thing about the Initiative fight is the shared experience for the four.
In particular, the shared combat in the name of a cause. This is where the
Initiative parallel is supposed to help. For all of the talk of the
Initiative as a family torn apart, one can lose touch with the closer
parallel of comrades at arms. Lots of groups get close for many reasons.
But what forged the Scoobies bond from the very start of the series was the
combatting evil mission. In many ways they've always kind of sucked at just
being family. But the mission is special. It exalts them. It's Buffy's
calling. In another way it's Giles calling. Willow gave up the chance to
go to any great school in the world because demon fighting was more
exciting. For Xander it's what gives meaning to his life and takes him
spiritually as well as physically out of his basement. The Initiative fight
served to ground them again, much as the zombie fight did in DMP. But on a
much greater level this time, for this was especially wonderful. That
spell - wow. What a rush. The highlight of his episode - maybe of the
season - for me was the sheer joy on Buffy's face when she came back into
the room where the spell was cast.
Again, this doesn't solve anything, but it sure as hell reminds them why
they would want it solved.
In the previous review you remarked about the show taking the gradual and
natural process of drifting apart and making it into something more dire
than that really is. (I don't remember your exact words. I hope that's a
fair summary.) I think you would be right as to what would happen with the
gradual breakup of an old set of high school friends.
And to a large extent, that's exactly what happened. How it happened. Why
it happened. How it felt to the people involved as it happened.
But the limitation of that analysis, IMO, is that they weren't just another
high school clique. They were a fighting force with a mission. Again, this
is where the Initiative parallel is supposed to shine. Showing their
dedication to their service even while simultaneously participating in
college. The Scoobies hadn't figured this out. After all, mission or no,
the way they actually experienced it in high school was as friends hanging
out in the library. They had no basis for, no experience in adjusting to a
different kind of life. Normally that would just be the way things go as
people stop showing up for drinks at the Bronze or other comparable events.
But it's not going to work the same way when it messes with something that
actually demands dedication.
I'm reminded of a comment you made back in A New Man, and my response to it:
> One thing that the episode does nicely is to portray how these kinds of
> abandonment issues can arise through simple misunderstanding. The
> situation in which Buffy just never got around to telling Giles about
> the Initiative is the sort of thing that just happens, sometimes. No
> malevolence or even obliviousness involved, just kinda assuming that
> Giles knows what we know.
. No malevolence. I'm not so sure about no obliviousness. Perhaps more
. to the point is that informing Giles isn't a priority - which Giles
. would expect.
Not telling Giles about something as big as the Initiative - which Buffy had
also assigned to Giles to figure out - is not a trivial thing even if the
process of it happening felt that way. Not when you're engaged in the kind
of work Buffy and Giles are. Other things - like Willow not showing up with
the spell ingredients when expected. Buffy not training with Giles. Little
group patrolling. Just generally not being readily available. The process
is drifting apart. But the impact is a mission group all of a sudden
finding themselves no longer on the same page when it actually matters.
That surely sounds like a brewing fight to me.
(None of this, incidentally is meant to imply that the Scoobies need to
transform themselves into a military unit. Whatever way they find must by
needs be far more eccentric than that.)
> Oh yeah, for those keeping track,
> here's another time that Buffy says she loves Willow without being
> reciprocated with the same kind of language.
Sorry, but...
Buffy: You can tell me anything. I love you. You're my best friend.
Willow: Me, too. I love you too.
> Speaking of love, is this the first time Anya's said anything about
> it?
I don't remember for sure. Maybe. But Xander did not reciprocate.
> Dumbass Colonel Guy will of course be an obstacle to doing what needs
> to be done. He's still lame, but Gellar and the writing work hard to
> give her the chance for a good hero's speech. The effect is dulled
> some by that horrible see-through shirt/tank top outfit she's
> wearing, though. And I don't normally comment on clothing choices,
> so you know it was noticeable. Maybe it's intentional, to make her
> seem harder to take seriously to DCG, play up the image of the ragtag
> Scoobie Gang vs. the organized military operation. But my god, it is
> hideous, and spreads its negative sex appeal through the whole climax
> of the episode. While we're talking about fashion, though, I like
> Willow's animal shirt.
Didn't much notice the clothes. Liked the magic gourd though.
> This Is Really Stupid But I Laughed Anyway moment(s):
> - Two from the same scene: "Are you still upset about that fight you
> had with your friends? It was hours ago!" and "you can't
> 'pfft' that stuff away"
> - "Spike's working for Adam?! After all we've done... nah, I can't
> even act surprised." And the fact that Giles laughs...
> - "Some kind of, I don't know...uranium extracting spell? I know.
> I'm reaching"
> - Spike trying to run away when discussing definitions of failure
Giles: Xander, just because this is never gonna work, there's no need
to be negative.
> The big battle/bloodbath is kinda flat, even with the explosions and
> such. I wonder if the railing-intensive set is the same one they used
> for the Hell dimension in "Anne." That's all background, though,
The commentary speaks of the difficulty of generating a sufficient sense of
chaos in that space. They simply didn't have enough people and activity
going on to support the shots of the whole set. They were more successful
with some narrower framed shots where they could overlay foreground,
midground & background action. There's also a nice slo-mo of Spike kicking
ass that looks good. Somewhat sillier, but I still get a kick out of, are
several bodies randomly flying through the air long distance. It's a weekly
TV show with a modest budget.
Not so much for action as for mood, I did enjoy the Scoobies determined run
through the mayhem. Especially Xander getting to be soldier boy one more
time. What a difference focus and Buffy peril makes for him.
> for the final confrontation between Slayer and Big Bad. It's a mix
> of cheesiness and badassery, both in overdrive, fighting for control of
> the mood of the scene. On the one hand, one can never quite forget
> that our heroes are triumphing through the Power Of Friendship (next
> episode, I expect that Santa Claus rides in on a rainbow and gives them
> all candy). On the other hand, seeing Buffy stand tall, ignoring
> machine-gun fire, and rip a monster's uranium heart-thing out of its
> chest is pretty cool.
The best moment in Riley's part for me was picking up the gas cannister and
giving some serious hurt to Forrest with it. Nicely resourceful. We've
actually been primed a little bit for Riley's resourceful use of weapons
rather than just hand to hand. We saw some of that in his fight with Angel.
I wonder if Buffy has been training him.
Anyway, I was confused for the longest time why the cannister would explode.
But I finally realized that Buffy had torn apart the overhead wire earlier
to create the sparks. (Of course that now leaves me wondering why Buffy
ripped that wire.) Diving over the rolling table and pulling it down to
protect him was a nice stunt move too.
Buffy's confrontation with Adam - *including* the combining spell part - is
one of my favorite fights in the BtVS series. I still get excited and a
little emotional as the spinning spell sensation settles on Buffy and her
head jerks up. I love Buffy's orange eyes and the multiple voices chanting
Sumerian. The doves. And, of course, Buffy just whupping Adam all across
the room. This probably is the most powerful Buffy ever is. But, then,
it's not just Buffy.
> Seriously, how many times are the good guys going to let Spike live for
> no reason other than the actor has a contract? This is getting
> ridiculous.
How many times are people going to ask Buffy to bow to expediency? It's not
how Buffy thinks.
Seriously, how many lives do you suppose Spike saved? Aside from the
Scoobies themselves at the end. From the glimpse we saw, he was offing more
demons than anybody in the Initiative was. (If Adam had been really clever,
he would have brought Spike in to even the kill ratio rather than Buffy.)
Maybe Graham told Riley later about what Hostile 17 did in the fight. And
surely he provided comparable aid to the group after Adam's demise when they
went back into the mayhem to save the rest of the Initiative.
Spike is a connundrum to them on a number of levels, but ultimately I think
they are simply to honorable to kill anyone that defenseless without truly
compelling need. Deserving it isn't enough. Potential harm isn't enough.
They don't do executions.
> According to Mrs. Q., and I agree with her, this could almost have been
> a season finale. It would've been a pretty sucky one, though. About
> midway through the show, I had a feeling that this was going to be the
> obvious big showdown one would expect to see next week, that we'd get
> it out of the way and then do something unpredictable.
In a fashion it is the season finale. The last episode is season <insert
imaginary number>.
> As my rating
> reflects, I'm perhaps fonder of "Primeval" than it deserves
> (since it does kinda suck),
LOL Except for those deviants that think it deserves better because it's
kinda good.
> because of that sense of moving on. Adam
> was on track to go down as the series' weakest Big Bad (even the
> Master was better, he had a certain panache), so it's good to see
> that the show has something else in mind for the finale. I'm glad
> to see Adam dead, I'm glad to see most of Walsh's secrets revealed
> and addressed, and I'm glad to see the Initiative arc literally get
> buried. The government guy's voiceover is an efficient way to use
> minimal screentime to quickly sum up both the aftermath and
> inform/remind us what the Initiative's purpose was in the first place
> (to control an army of hostiles, and to let Walsh try out her big
> ideas).
"Burn it down, and salt the Earth."
I've always found the Initiative story engaging myself. It probably helps
that this was the first main season arc that I watched in the series,
providing me the baseline reference that everything else could wow me with
for being even better. By itself I had a lot of fun with it.
Still, as I think my analysis above shows, it has some serious problems in
supporting the series properly. Pretty clearly, I believe, the weakest
seasonal arc of the series. As Adam is the weakest Big Bad. (Well, maybe
not physically, but you get my drift.)
Still, there's one more issue with this season that I think is even greater.
I'll save that for next episode.
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: Not a particularly good episode, but good for
> the series.
>
> AOQ rating: Decent
Good for me - almost Excellent. I got very wrapped up in the triumph of the
Scoobies. But in the end, the weight of the Initiative limitations dragged
it down a notch. The Initiative was supposed to be a potent force torn
apart by imperial hubris. Instead it got reduced to too much cartoonish
buffoonery - kind of akin to what was done with the Watchers Council.
OBS
Michael Ikeda
news:1148668733....@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> The big question mark is Giles. Giles can be quite ruthless when
> necessary, and he does think with his head more than his heart.
> So why doesn't he kill Spike? I think it's either because he
> respects that it should be Buffy's decision, or because he
> thinks Spike could potentially be useful -- he's a dangerous
> fighter who can still (and only) kill demons.
Probably a bit of both. But he's at least been considering the idea
that Spike might be useful. Remember his interrupted question to
Spike in "The I in Team":
Giles: Has it occurred to you that there may be a higher purpose--
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> contention (not just yours), this seems a good place to hit upon it. It's
> not clear to me from your comments if you think this show is supposed to
> have resolved all of that, but I do observe others suggesting that's its
> intent. Create a big problem out of nothing and then - snip, snap - all
> fixed.
xanders still stuck in the basement
buffy is once again one girl in all the world
giles is still gainfully unemployed
willow still has infantile reactions when the world disagrees with her
but the first step in solving a problem
is acknowledging the problem exists
thats what happened in this episode
i liked the moment when buffy meets spike at adams lair and suddenly flashes
like the moment when faith flips the light switch without looking
the meeting on the walkway and in giles apartment
doesnt really acknowledge anything
theyre still blaming spike and not examining their own conduct
its in the elevator they come to grips with their own weaknesses
and leave hope they can work past them
xander will hopefully find a stable source of income and move out
willow hopefully will finish growing up
giles could get a job again
not too much they can do with buffy except kill her off
and that would requiring redoing the opening credits in a major way
> The thing about the Initiative fight is the shared experience for the four.
> In particular, the shared combat in the name of a cause. This is where the
> Initiative parallel is supposed to help. For all of the talk of the
> Initiative as a family torn apart, one can lose touch with the closer
antiparallel to the initiative is the issue of individuality
regardless of how real military units operate
individuality is not highly valued among the initiative
they want the organization chart properly filled out
and the lines of authority followed religiously
the worse insult the colonel flings at reilly and the rest
is to call them anarchists
humans are social animals with pretentions of solitary hunters
the result is a constant balancing between the collective and the individual
when it goes to far to the collective
you get the initiative and adam and chips
but when it goes too far to the individual
you get the yoko factor
the joining spell brings the four back into a collective entity
but it still lets them retain their individuality
they each have their own unique contribution
the final confrontation is between two corporate entities
the xander-buffy-willow-giles creature is a balance of its parts and its whole
the adam creature has forced the parts into one
> Didn't much notice the clothes. Liked the magic gourd though.
chg lbhe yrsg sbbg va
> In a fashion it is the season finale. The last episode is season <insert
> imaginary number>.
you mean it rotates pi half out of the real plane?
vague disclaimer
burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
Or, in the alternative, they believed they had sorted everything out.
What would the thinking viewer imagine the odds of that lasting longer
than....say, well, phr qernz frdhrapr.
One Bit Shy
news:mair_fheal-42EDB...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
>> Since the whole friendship/breakup thing seems to be a general bone of
>> contention (not just yours), this seems a good place to hit upon it.
>> It's
>> not clear to me from your comments if you think this show is supposed to
>> have resolved all of that, but I do observe others suggesting that's its
>> intent. Create a big problem out of nothing and then - snip, snap - all
>> fixed.
>
> xanders still stuck in the basement
> buffy is once again one girl in all the world
> giles is still gainfully unemployed
> willow still has infantile reactions when the world disagrees with her
>
> but the first step in solving a problem
> is acknowledging the problem exists
> thats what happened in this episode
>
> i liked the moment when buffy meets spike at adams lair and suddenly
> flashes
> like the moment when faith flips the light switch without looking
Buffy is very sharp this episode. Must have stopped for a healthy
breakfast.
> the meeting on the walkway and in giles apartment
> doesnt really acknowledge anything
> theyre still blaming spike and not examining their own conduct
>
> its in the elevator they come to grips with their own weaknesses
> and leave hope they can work past them
It always frustrates me to see ideas successfully boiled down to a few
sentences. I *really* need lessons in succinctness.
But, yes.
> xander will hopefully find a stable source of income and move out
> willow hopefully will finish growing up
> giles could get a job again
>
> not too much they can do with buffy except kill her off
> and that would requiring redoing the opening credits in a major way
Oh, they've already done that. We saw how much good that did.
I hadn't thought of the parallel in multi-part construction before. Thanks.
I'll have to give that some more thought.
Yes, I agree that the individuality contrast is important. Like I said, I
don't mean to suggest that the Scoobies become a military unit. I was just
going for the shared experience of battle part.
>> Didn't much notice the clothes. Liked the magic gourd though.
>
> chg lbhe yrsg sbbg va
V jbaqre vs vg'f gur fnzr tbheq.
>> In a fashion it is the season finale. The last episode is season <insert
>> imaginary number>.
>
> you mean it rotates pi half out of the real plane?
Yes.
OBS
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> >
> > chg lbhe yrsg sbbg va
>
> V jbaqre vs vg'f gur fnzr tbheq.
what a man does with his gourd
is between him and his god
Rowan Hawthorn
>
> The awkwardness that struck me was simply the attempt to converse while
> rappelling. The rapelling was -uh- less than convincing. It reminds me of
> the rapelling scenes in the old Batman TV show.
>
It was, and yet strangely enough - as opposed to "Batman," where they
simply walked along a wall painted on the floor - Buffy and Willow were
actually slung down a "shaft." Alyson has mentioned in a couple of
interviews about throwing her back and hips out from being in the sling
so long during filming.
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Don Sample
Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> One Bit Shy wrote:
> >
> > The awkwardness that struck me was simply the attempt to converse while
> > rappelling. The rapelling was -uh- less than convincing. It reminds me of
> > the rapelling scenes in the old Batman TV show.
> >
>
> It was, and yet strangely enough - as opposed to "Batman," where they
> simply walked along a wall painted on the floor - Buffy and Willow were
> actually slung down a "shaft." Alyson has mentioned in a couple of
> interviews about throwing her back and hips out from being in the sling
> so long during filming.
Buffy and Willow were obviously hanging in the shaft, but the
'rappelling' part of it was also obviously being handled by someone
lowering them on their ropes, rather than them lowering themselves.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Rowan Hawthorn
> In article <T6KdnWuRAZL...@giganews.com>,
> Rowan Hawthorn <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> One Bit Shy wrote:
>>> The awkwardness that struck me was simply the attempt to converse while
>>> rappelling. The rapelling was -uh- less than convincing. It reminds me of
>>> the rapelling scenes in the old Batman TV show.
>>>
>> It was, and yet strangely enough - as opposed to "Batman," where they
>> simply walked along a wall painted on the floor - Buffy and Willow were
>> actually slung down a "shaft." Alyson has mentioned in a couple of
>> interviews about throwing her back and hips out from being in the sling
>> so long during filming.
>
> Buffy and Willow were obviously hanging in the shaft, but the
> 'rappelling' part of it was also obviously being handled by someone
> lowering them on their ropes, rather than them lowering themselves.
>
Yes. There wasn't any *real* rappelling going on there.
One Bit Shy
"Rowan Hawthorn" <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:T6KdnWuRAZL...@giganews.com...
> One Bit Shy wrote:
>>
>> The awkwardness that struck me was simply the attempt to converse while
>> rappelling. The rapelling was -uh- less than convincing. It reminds me
>> of the rapelling scenes in the old Batman TV show.
>>
>
> It was, and yet strangely enough - as opposed to "Batman," where they
> simply walked along a wall painted on the floor - Buffy and Willow were
> actually slung down a "shaft." Alyson has mentioned in a couple of
> interviews about throwing her back and hips out from being in the sling so
> long during filming.
True. And to add to it, as I recall, in Batman, even though they were just
walking along the floor, they still stopped "rappelling" when they talked to
each other. But not Buffy and Willow, nosiree! Those pikers just kept
rappelling along.
OBS
Rowan Hawthorn
But of course! Got to leave time for the cameos to pop their heads out
of a window, a la "Laugh-In." I was not a big fan of the "Batman" TV show.
> But not Buffy and Willow, nosiree! Those pikers just kept
> rappelling along.
They're nothing if not game...
Exp315
Although the DVD commentary mentioned that the "shaft" was so short
that they could only film a brief descent sequence before pulling them
back up and starting over again from the top. Hence the very slow
rappelling pace. :-)
Sam
burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
> The idea that Riley could cut himself open and rip the chip out of his
> body without passing out is utterly beyond belief. Even assuming that
> the nerve the chip is attached to isn't a critical one, Riley had to
> cut through some major muscle groups, feel around for the chip, get a
> grip on it (not easy since everything is covered in blood) and then rip
> it out of his body. And not only does he not pass out from pain and
> blood loss after this, he actually manages to stand up and fight!
> Sorry, but that's way past my threshold for suspension of disbelief.
But there are real world instances of regular people doing far more
than that. There was one case where a hiker found himself with his arm
trapped beneath a fallen tree; after several days it became clear no
one would find him, and he wasn't going to be digging his arm free or
lifting the log. So he tied a belt around his shoulder to form a
tourniquet, pulled out his swiss army knife, cut his own arm off with
it, and then *hiked down the mountain and drove himself to the
hospital*.
Compared to cutting your own arm off with a swiss army knife, what
Riley did is downright pedestrian.
--Sam
Arbitrar Of Quality
> But just because something is left unresolved at the end of an episode isn't
> enough reason to slap a to be continued on it.
Well said.
> But he has such a mellifluous voice! Adam does seem a bit of a dud as a
> season's Big Bad. Where's the real tension between him and the Scoobies?
> How does he really matter to anything beyond being tougher than the every
> day demon and vampire?
That's it exactly. The personal connection. I don't know why I didn't
think to put it that way, but in the end, Adam's just a monster, and
BTVS isn't a villain-focused show. Every successful Big Bad so far has
had a mix of the inherent coolness and the personal. The Master wasn't
my favorite, but he combined the old-school vampire thing with the fact
that Buffy feared him on such a fundamental level. Evil Angel worked
not only because he was absolutely the nastiest character in the
Buffyverse, but because he was Angel. Wilkins had a unique personality
and the resources of the mundane world as well as the supernatural, but
he and Faith had important synergy that made them both better villains,
with a lot of the personal connection with the heroes running through
her. Adam has the voice and dialogue, which I didn't much like, and
the physical look and inquisitiveness, which I did. But indeed, how
does he really matter?
I think the personal side of things was supposed to come through the
Initiative in general, who as you point out didn't really work as the
Scoobies' oppposite number, and Riley in particular, who as you point
out couldn't support all that was written for him.
> The biggest element is the combat in the Initiative along with the spell.
> The spell is obviously heavily metaphorical and, at first blush, kind of
> obvious. But - Sunnydale again. Metaphor as literal physical
> manifestation. It's quite true to the series tradition I believe. It's
> also a potent solution to a difficult monster. Besides, the spell looks
> really cool.
The spell worked better for you than for me. It seems like such a
peskily... literal way of uniting them in this battle.
> In the previous review you remarked about the show taking the gradual and
> natural process of drifting apart and making it into something more dire
> than that really is. (I don't remember your exact words. I hope that's a
> fair summary.) I think you would be right as to what would happen with the
> gradual breakup of an old set of high school friends.
>
> And to a large extent, that's exactly what happened. How it happened. Why
> it happened. How it felt to the people involved as it happened.
>
> But the limitation of that analysis, IMO, is that they weren't just another
> high school clique. They were a fighting force with a mission. Again, this
> is where the Initiative parallel is supposed to shine. Showing their
> dedication to their service even while simultaneously participating in
> college. The Scoobies hadn't figured this out. After all, mission or no,
> the way they actually experienced it in high school was as friends hanging
> out in the library. They had no basis for, no experience in adjusting to a
> different kind of life. Normally that would just be the way things go as
> people stop showing up for drinks at the Bronze or other comparable events.
> But it's not going to work the same way when it messes with something that
> actually demands dedication.
I'm leaving that in without responding to it because I like it.
> > Oh yeah, for those keeping track,
> > here's another time that Buffy says she loves Willow without being
> > reciprocated with the same kind of language.
>
> Sorry, but...
>
> Buffy: You can tell me anything. I love you. You're my best friend.
> Willow: Me, too. I love you too.
My mistake.
> Not so much for action as for mood, I did enjoy the Scoobies determined run
> through the mayhem. Especially Xander getting to be soldier boy one more
> time. What a difference focus and Buffy peril makes for him.
For me, "New Moon Rising" fulfilled my competent-Soldier-Xander niche,
as a bookend and contrast to "Goodbye Iowa."
-AOQ
Apteryx
news:1148649681....@38g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Bwahahaha! Very true. I can link you to her reviews if you're curious.
> She has a very... different style.
Sure. I mean, I'm interested enough to read AOQ's reviews, and her taste
can't be any more off beam than his... can it?
--
Apteryx
ajs...@aol.com
how Riley didn't notice that he had a wound in his chest from his chip
insertion?
Ian Galbraith
[snip]
> This was such a cheap cop-out. Instead of taking the opportunity to
> resolve the very real issues between Buffy and her friends (or having
> them admit they can't be resolved and go from there), Joss decided to
> just invent some completely new issues and resolve those instead. The
> end result is that there's no development at all on the long-term
> problems between the friends; the characters haven't dealt with
> anything real. There's no movement. The happy ending here is totally
> fake.
You ever think that was the point?
[snip]
--
You Can't Stop The Signal
Ian Galbraith
[snip]
> That conversation definitely doesn't have the air of people temporarily
> putting aside their problems with each other in order to work together
> to deal with an impending threat. We're talking big, emotional
> declarations of love and group hugs here. Hell, the only thing missing
> is a rainbow in the background.
Big over the top declarations tend to be somewhat fake because they're
reacting to festering insecurities by going to far the other way. And
besides simply quoting the script doesn't convey the context of the acting.
Elisi
>can't be any more off beam than his... can it?
Fur ungrf Qneyn (juvpu V unqa'g xabja jnf cbffvoyr). Naq Fcvxr (zbfgyl)
- fur yvxrf uvz rivy va F2 naq nf Natry'f fvqrxvpx va NGF F5. Ohg fur
whfg qrirybcrq n pbzcyrgryl veengvbany qvfyvxr gb uvz va F4-7 (fb abg n
'Fcvxr ungre' jvgu na nkr gb tevaq!). Naljnl, fur jngpurq (yvxr NBD)
bar be gjb rcf n qnl (hafcbvyrq) naq gura cbfgrq ure vzcerffvbaf. Ure
erivrjf ner irel zhpu fgernz-bs-pbafvbhfarff, naq fur unf fbzr
snagnfgvp vafvtugf! Rawbl. :)
Well see for yourself (all links go to her LJ):
http://pegasus.cityofveils.com/test/bookslj.phtml#buffy
http://pegasus.cityofveils.com/test/bookslj.phtml#angel
Stephen Tempest
Er - no. Considering how good the Initiative is in brainwashing and
mentally controlling people, it doesn't bother me in the slightest
that Riley was unaware of the chip.
Especially AFTER the chip was inserted. I mean, come on. Even if he
was strapped to the operating table kicking and screaming, once the
chip was in place then *click* he forgets all about it again...
Stephen
(Harmony) Watcher
> One Bit Shy wrote:
> > "Rowan Hawthorn" <rowan_h...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:T6KdnWuRAZL...@giganews.com...
> >> One Bit Shy wrote:
> >>> The awkwardness that struck me was simply the attempt to converse
while
> >>> rappelling. The rapelling was -uh- less than convincing. It reminds
me
> >>> of the rapelling scenes in the old Batman TV show.
> >>>
> >> It was, and yet strangely enough - as opposed to "Batman," where they
> >> simply walked along a wall painted on the floor - Buffy and Willow were
> >> actually slung down a "shaft." Alyson has mentioned in a couple of
> >> interviews about throwing her back and hips out from being in the sling
so
> >> long during filming.
> >
> > True. And to add to it, as I recall, in Batman, even though they were
just
> > walking along the floor, they still stopped "rappelling" when they
talked to
> > each other.
>
> But of course! Got to leave time for the cameos to pop their heads out
> of a window, a la "Laugh-In." I was not a big fan of the "Batman" TV
show.
>
>
==Harmony Watcher==
Rowan Hawthorn
Oh, I don't know - I always thought if they'd centered around Catwoman
(Julie Newmar's version) and Batgirl and just forgot about the two
embarrassments in the lead roles, it would have been a *much* better
show... :-)
Don Sample
Stephen Tempest <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
There was nothing to indicate that the chip had any effect on his
memory, or his conscious thought processes. Quite the opposite. He
seemed to be fully aware of what he was doing, while it was controlling
him.
It was probably more a case of him being told it was some other sort of
procedure, when it was inserted. He comes back from a capture, cut up
and bruised, goes into the infirmary to get patched up. They slip him
an anaesthetic to put him under, and when he wakes up he's got one more
stitched up cut on his chest, that he didn't remember having before, but
figures he just didn't notice it among all the others.
BTR1701
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> Seriously, how many times are the good guys going to let Spike live for
> no reason other than the actor has a contract? This is getting
> ridiculous.
Welcome to my world. My single biggest complaint about the series ever.
BTR1701
burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > Riley should've been bleeding a lot more at the end after cutting out
> > his implant. Good thinking on his part though, and another nice
> > moment.
> This was quite possibly the silliest thing in the entire episode.
>
> The idea that Riley could cut himself open and rip the chip out of his
> body without passing out is utterly beyond belief.
Well, there was that guy who out in the wilderness and ended up with his
arm pinned about a year ago. He cut his own arm off with a sharp rock
and crawled until he was rescued. Made all the news broadcasts. These
things *can* happen.
BTR1701
<mair_fheal-FDCB4...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> > But remember, he's on drugs. And they make certain never to tell us
> > what kind of drugs (maybe something Walsh cooked up herself), so
> > they're immune to nitpicking there.
>
> watch the serenity movie?
> one of the characters get a stab wound
> that shouldve knocked them flat with shock
> and then possibly bled to death
>
> fiction has a long tradition of ignoring the real effects of trauma
See the previous post by "Sam" in this thread regarding the guy who
amputated his arm with a utility knife. Such things *can* happen when
the person is sufficiently motivated.
BTR1701
<hwlabadiejr-A4FF...@sn-radius.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
Horace LaBadie <hwlab...@nospam.highstream.net> wrote:
> In article <1148616415.3...@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
>
> SNIP
>
> > I wonder if the railing-intensive set is the same one they used
> > for the Hell dimension in "Anne."
>
> This was shot in an actual hanger where the Stealth aircraft was
> developed. "Anne" was shot in the Buffy warehouse, the old factory
> redressed.
Well, a small part of the Stealth program maybe. Most of the Stealth
program took place out on the Nellis Range in Nevada (which encompasses
the infamous Area 51). Somehow I don't think Joss Whedon was given
permission to film his TV show out there.
Elisi
Spike's mostly been superflous to the main events, but he's funny and
pretty, so I can't say I mind. Particularly since he was brought in to
replace Cordelia!
Elisi
mean is that she was the one who stood around saying "You're all stupid
and you're going to die!" - which is the role Spike got.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
tourniquet after about ten minutes knocks down neurons beyond block
and after about an hour kills them
it means shock and pain are greatly reduced
cant put a tourniquet around the abdomen
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"ajs...@aol.com" <ajs...@aol.com> wrote:
theres a whole lot of walsh and the initiative and her boys
that happened before we first saw them
also it wasnt a mind control chip
reilly went on thinking whatever he want to
it was something that overrode his voluntary nerve system
something in his chest could presumily control him from the shoulders down
by plinking the notochord at that level
to control the heart it has to plink higher up in the neck
to control the mouth you have to plink it all the way up near the brainstem
one possibility is that he has tiny devices all over him
and the chest one was just where they could put in something large enough
to control the rest
Don Sample
BTR1701 <btr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Flight testing might have been done at Nellis, but the Lockheed Skunk
Works, where the planes were designed and built in the 70s and 80s, used
to be in Burbank, CA. They moved the Skunk Works to Palmdale in the 90s.
BTR1701
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well I'm glad I don't live in your world. It's true that this season
> Spike's mostly been superflous to the main events, but he's funny and
> pretty, so I can't say I mind.
Which is precisely why the character kept coming back like a bad fungus:
the swooning female demographic loved his chest and his wry bad-boy
attitude.
Blah!
Don Sample
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
They had Anya for that. Spike's continuing survival started to strain
credibility by the end of season 2.
One Bit Shy
news:1148707052....@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> One Bit Shy wrote:
> The spell worked better for you than for me. It seems like such a
> peskily... literal way of uniting them in this battle.
mariposas pointed out something that had somehow slipped my attention. The
multi-part Buffy serves as contrast to the multi-part Adam. It's the final
representation of the Scobbie/Initiative comparison.
Why thank you.
OBS
Elisi
'snyy sebz qnexarff' vf bar bs gur orfg fgbel nepuf sbe nal punenpgre
ba nal GI fubj rire! Lrf ur'f n ovg cbvagyrff va F4, ohg nsgre gung uvf
fgbel fgnegf gb xvpx va cebcreyl. Chg oyhagyl ur'f gur ernfba V'z fgvyy
bofrffrq jvgu guvf irefr.
Naln unf gur fnzr oyhagarff nf Pbeql, ohg ure fgbel vf infgyl qvssrerag
sebz Fcvxr'f.
Elisi
actors on the entire show - yes he's handsome, but considering the
overflowing Willow love around here, I can't see that someone being
good looking should be held against them!
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
if i told you you had a nice body etc
Eric Hunter
> Arbitrar Of Quality wrote:
>> A reminder: Please avoid spoilers for later episodes in
>> these review threads.
>>
>> Seriously, how many times are the good guys going to
>> let Spike live for no reason other than the actor has a
>> contract? This is getting ridiculous.
>
> life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to
> deal out death in judgment. For even the very wise cannot
> see all ends. I have not much hope that Spike can be cured
> before he's dusted, but there is a chance of it. And he is
> bound up with the fate of the series. My heart tells me that
> he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end;
> and when that comes, the pity of Buffy may rule the fate
> of many
An excellent paraphrase of Gandalf, and it raises an
important issue within the development of the series.
From "The Harvest", S1-2:
Giles: You listen to me! Jesse is dead! You have to
remember that when you see him, you're not looking at
your friend. You're looking at the thing that killed him.
From "Doppelgängland", S3-16:
Buffy: (reassuringly) Willow, just remember, a vampire's
personality has nothing to do with the person it was.
Angel: (without thinking) Well, actually... (gets a look
from Buffy) That's a good point.
In S4, the Initiative talks about HST's being animals.
In every war, each side "demonizes" the enemy in
their propaganda, but unless you are a complete
sociopath, it is very difficult to kill someone you
know. By now, the Scoobies know Spike; he
has "lived" with Giles and Xander, and cooperated
with the gang in fighting against evil. They know he
can't bite anyone, and they know he hasn't got the
patience to methodically plan and execute an
apocalypse. Gandalf's advice about not being too
eager to deal out death in judgment is a lesson
that Buffy has already taken to heart when it comes
to those she knows (Angelus, Oz, Vamp-Willow,
Faith, and now Spike).
Eric.
--
burt...@hotmail.com
If you add in the context of the acting, it just proves my point even
more. The actors didn't play the scene as a group of people grudgingly
setting aside differences on a temporary basis so they could work
together. They played it as a joyful, emotional reconciliation between
friends - a big moment of catharsis for everyone.
burt...@hotmail.com
> In S4, the Initiative talks about HST's being animals.
> In every war, each side "demonizes" the enemy in
> their propaganda, but unless you are a complete
> sociopath, it is very difficult to kill someone you
> know.
To kill a person you know, yes.
Spike is not a person.
> By now, the Scoobies know Spike; he
> has "lived" with Giles and Xander, and cooperated
> with the gang in fighting against evil. They know he
> can't bite anyone, and they know he hasn't got the
> patience to methodically plan and execute an
> apocalypse.
And he's also pleged that if he ever gets his chip out, he's going to
come and kill them. He's both willing and able to hurt Buffy and her
friends indirectly (see his promise to tell Faith where to find Xander
and Glies in "This Year's Girl"). And he's shown that he's willing to
ally himself with a Big Bad and assist in his goal of killing them all
and who knows how many other innocent people.
For Buffy and her friends to let him continue to (un)live after all
this is writer-induced stupidity of the highest order.
burt...@hotmail.com
> burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > The idea that Riley could cut himself open and rip the chip out of his
> > the nerve the chip is attached to isn't a critical one, Riley had to
> > cut through some major muscle groups, feel around for the chip, get a
> > grip on it (not easy since everything is covered in blood) and then rip
> > it out of his body. And not only does he not pass out from pain and
> > blood loss after this, he actually manages to stand up and fight!
> > Sorry, but that's way past my threshold for suspension of disbelief.
>
> But there are real world instances of regular people doing far more
> than that. There was one case where a hiker found himself with his arm
> trapped beneath a fallen tree; after several days it became clear no
> one would find him, and he wasn't going to be digging his arm free or
> lifting the log. So he tied a belt around his shoulder to form a
> tourniquet, pulled out his swiss army knife, cut his own arm off with
> it, and then *hiked down the mountain and drove himself to the
> hospital*.
>
> Compared to cutting your own arm off with a swiss army knife, what
> Riley did is downright pedestrian.
You can also find real-world examples of people falling out of
airplanes without parachutes and surviving. Doesn't mean it's something
I think would make for good drama in a TV show.
BTR1701
Hannigan's character wasn't constantly trying to kill everyone (usually).
One Bit Shy
news:1148753383.4...@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Which it was. But catharsis does not equal solution, and nowhere is it
implied that it does.
Catharsis is a good choice of words here:
1 : PURGATION
2 a : purification or purgation of the emotions (as pity and fear) primarily
through art b : a purification or purgation that brings about spiritual
renewal or release from tension
3 : elimination of a complex by bringing it to consciousness and affording
it expression
They've released the tension. Let go of their anger. Reset their emotional
affinity and so on. On a psychological level, they're ready to move
forward. But they haven't addressed any of the tangable underlying causes,
and do not pretend to have. This got them through the day. And it *could*
be a foundation for addressing the rest. We don't know about the latter
yet, for it's still the same day and, well, they've been kind of busy.
OBS
BTR1701
"Eric Hunter" <hunt...@comcast.invalid> wrote:
> In S4, the Initiative talks about HST's being animals.
> In every war, each side "demonizes" the enemy in
> their propaganda, but unless you are a complete
> sociopath, it is very difficult to kill someone you
> know. By now, the Scoobies know Spike; he
> has "lived" with Giles and Xander, and cooperated
> with the gang in fighting against evil. They know he
> can't bite anyone, and they know he hasn't got the
> patience to methodically plan and execute an
> apocalypse.
He actively worked with Adam to try and kill them all. Just because he
can't bite anyone doesn't mean he isn't dangerous, a fact Spike himself
goes out of his way to highlight every chance he gets:
SPIKE
Tell you what I'll do, then. I'll head out, find this girl, tell her
exactly where you are and then watch as she kills you. (off their look)
Can't any one of your damn little Scooby Club at least try to remember
that I hate you all? Just because I can't do the damage myself doesn't
stop me from aiming a loose cannon your way.
BTR1701
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Anya has the same bluntness as Cordy, but her story is vastly different
> from Spike's.
Thank god.
Elisi
her, although being evil she was sure to go on killing people when she
got back to her own verse.
Spike wasn't 'constantly trying to kill everyone' - most of the time he
was just disgruntled. If he'd been intent on killing people he could
probably have found some minions to kill for him.
And I can't believe that I'm arguing over this. Buffy isn't a killer -
she only slays demons who are a real threat. (See Willy's Bar f.ex.)
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> yet, for it's still the same day and, well, they've been kind of busy.
miles to go and all that
they have to get the big bad taken care of before another day dawns
peachy ashie passion
You know, I can't help thinking that his constant reminders make it
hard to take him seriously on this - especially given how rarely he
actually DOES something.
And this.. this try to break up a friendship thing, that's par for the
course for high school girls. It isn't at all surprising that it
doesn't strike Buffy as a killable offense.
One Bit Shy
news:vM1eg.6520$U_2.782@trnddc05...
Not to mention that the attempt failed and even likely helped them in the
end.
OBS
peachy ashie passion
Very nice points Eric.
This one really works for me, thank you!
Opus the Penguin
> I've always found the Initiative story engaging myself. It
> probably helps that this was the first main season arc that I
> watched in the series, providing me the baseline reference that
> everything else could wow me with for being even better. By
> itself I had a lot of fun with it.
>
> Still, as I think my analysis above shows, it has some serious
> problems in supporting the series properly. Pretty clearly, I
> believe, the weakest seasonal arc of the series. As Adam is the
> weakest Big Bad. (Well, maybe not physically, but you get my
> drift.)
Adam wasn't the Big Bad. Drifting apart was the Big Bad. Think about
Season 4 in this light and everything (well, lots of thing) falls
into place.
Adam was a slightly extended MOTW who helped them confront that Big
Bad. He's a maguffin. This is another reason having the season end in
a coda rather than a grand finale makes good sense. It was never
about Adam or the Initiative. It was about the four friends and the
first year of college/adult life.
--
Opus the Penguin
The best darn penguin in all of Usenet
BTR1701
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Hannigan's character wasn't constantly trying to kill everyone (usually).
> Would this be a good time to bring up WishVerseWillow? They didn't kill
> her, although being evil she was sure to go on killing people when she
> got back to her own verse.
I didn't agree with that, either.
Stephen Tempest
Lrf, orpnhfr jngpuvat _Naln_ naq Ohssl unir cnffvbangr frk va gur
ehvaf bs n jerpxrq ubhfr jbhyq unir orra whfg njshy.
Er, wait a minute...
Stephen
(People of different sexual tastes to me can substitute Spike and
Xander into the above ROT-13'd sentence if they prefer...)
Stephen Tempest
>Would this be a good time to bring up WishVerseWillow? They didn't kill
>her, although being evil she was sure to go on killing people when she
>got back to her own verse.
Plus in the same episode Anya threatened to make them all grovel
before her once she got her powers back... and a Vengeance Demon is
far more dangerous than a mere vampire.
So why no complaints that they didn't kill Anya back in season 3?
Stephen
Elisi
Npghnyyl n zhpu orggre rknzcyr guna nalguvat zragvbarq fb sne vf
Unezbal - lrf fur'f fghcvq naq varcg, ohg fur'f xvyyvat crbcyr dhvgr
unccvyl. V'q fnl gung abg qhfgvat ure jnf n onq pnyy ba Ohssl'f cneg!
peachy ashie passion
Oh, that's okay. There were complaints there too.
BTR1701
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
So would I. Hell, after Season 2, I think not dusting Angel was a bad
call on Buffy's part.
BTR1701
Stephen Tempest <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
I think you'll find that I did complain.
vague disclaimer
Stephen Tempest <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
No, I'm pretty much right there with ya.
--
A vague disclaimer is nobody's friend
vague disclaimer
Stephen Tempest <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >Would this be a good time to bring up WishVerseWillow? They didn't kill
> >her, although being evil she was sure to go on killing people when she
> >got back to her own verse.
I think they were kinda making a point about identity :).
> Plus in the same episode Anya threatened to make them all grovel
> before her once she got her powers back... and a Vengeance Demon is
> far more dangerous than a mere vampire.
>
> So why no complaints that they didn't kill Anya back in season 3?
The problem there is quite straightforward: at the time of Anya making
threatening noises she was no more harmful than most other ordinary
school kids flunking math. In fact to all practical purposes that is
precisely what she was. She was an *ex*demon, as was made repeatedly
clear. She could talk the talk all she liked, but she was both
essentially harmless AND on the slaypacks radar.
burt...@hotmail.com
> <burt...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1148753383.4...@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > more. The actors didn't play the scene as a group of people grudgingly
> > setting aside differences on a temporary basis so they could work
> > together. They played it as a joyful, emotional reconciliation between
> > friends - a big moment of catharsis for everyone.
>
> Which it was. But catharsis does not equal solution, and nowhere is it
> implied that it does.
But it does imply that this is more than just a temporary setting aside
of differences, which is the point I was responding to. This is played
as a real emotional resolution to problems between Buffy and her
friends, and my point is that it's completely bogus. Joss went for this
big emotional "payoff" without doing any of the work he needed to do to
get it. The only reason this scene happened was because of the
conflicts that got invented out of thin air one episode earlier.
And yet Joss wanted us to accept this as, at the very least, an
emotional resolution to the group's issues. Well, it doesn't work, and
I'm not going to pretend it does just so I can go along with the happy
group hugs.
Eric Hunter
> Eric Hunter wrote:
>> In S4, the Initiative talks about HST's being animals.
>> In every war, each side "demonizes" the enemy in
>> their propaganda, but unless you are a complete
>> sociopath, it is very difficult to kill someone you
>> know.
>
> To kill a person you know, yes.
>
> Spike is not a person.
LOL! That's the sociopath's defense! Spike is a rational,
intelligent, sensitive individual who happens to be evil,
but who is unable to actively perform evil acts. Sounds
a lot like Faith after TYG/WAY, except for the inability
to perform evil acts. If Buffy should kill chipped Spike,
then she should kill ensouled Angel, and Faith, and Oz,
as well. Fortunately, she isn't afflicted with that much
hubris.
> And he's also pledged that if he ever gets his chip out,
> he's going to come and kill them.
Yup, and if he does, then Buffy will dust him, just as
she sent Angel to hell in "Becoming 2".
Eric.
--
One Bit Shy
news:1148771568.7...@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
And I agree that it was an emotional reconciliation/catharsis and so on.
How temporary it is depends on how they follow up. Beyond that our premises
are not the same. I don't believe that the conflicts were invented out of
thin air. And the catharsis works for me, though I believe it entailed more
than the group hug.
OBS
burt...@hotmail.com
> burt...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > Eric Hunter wrote:
> >> In S4, the Initiative talks about HST's being animals.
> >> In every war, each side "demonizes" the enemy in
> >> their propaganda, but unless you are a complete
> >> sociopath, it is very difficult to kill someone you
> >> know.
> >
> > To kill a person you know, yes.
> >
> > Spike is not a person.
>
> LOL! That's the sociopath's defense!
No. When a sociopath kills, they know they're killing *people* (unless
they are also delusional), they just don't care. Spike is, in actual
fact, not a person.
> Spike is a rational,
> intelligent, sensitive individual who happens to be evil,
> but who is unable to actively perform evil acts. Sounds
> a lot like Faith after TYG/WAY, except for the inability
> to perform evil acts.
And except for the fact that Faith is, you know, a human being, and
Spike is a vampire.
> If Buffy should kill chipped Spike,
> then she should kill ensouled Angel, and Faith, and Oz,
> as well. Fortunately, she isn't afflicted with that much
> hubris.
It's not hubris, it's simple common sense. There's no comparassion
between Spike and the others you listed.
> > And he's also pledged that if he ever gets his chip out,
> > he's going to come and kill them.
>
> Yup, and if he does, then Buffy will dust him, just as
> she sent Angel to hell in "Becoming 2".
Except that, if Buffy waits until Spike gets his chip out to kill him,
there's every chance that he'll kill any number of innocent people
before she gets to him. Maybe even some or all of her friends. Which is
why it's sheer idiocy on her part not to stake him.
And also, you snipped the part of my post where I talked about the fact
that Spike has *already* shown that he's willing and able to cause harm
(when he promised to tell Faith where Xander and Giles were in "This
Year's Girl" and when he allied himself with Adam). He should have been
staked right after "Primeval," and if not for a case of Joss-induced
idiocy, he would have been.