AOQ Angel Review 5-22: "Not Fade Away"
Arbitrar Of Quality
Season Five, Episode 22: "Not Fade Away"
(or "Bang.")
Writers: Jeffery Bell and Joss Whedon
Director: Jeffrey Bell
Jeff rather than Joss gets to direct the finale; I guess he was a big
part of the shape of the show in the last couple seasons.
Splitting the exposition across episodes (well, the episode break
kinda divides "exposition" from "plan") there's some more standard
bantering now that everyone's on the same page, but, you know, it's
the last time ever.
Our villains talk some sense but misread the situation when they want
Angel to sign away his Shanshu. And thus we wipe out a big constant
of the show with a binding contract. I think it works. The show
treats it as almost an afterthought, as it is to Angel, and to the
viewer - somewhere along the line, the reward became unimportant. The
idea of this big heroic sacrifice does its job in balancing the need
to convey both the futility - I mean, everyone dies except the
villains - and making it kinda into something worth fighting for
anyway. No one's giving up. Like I've been arguing, it's about
sending a message to the cruel forces of the Universe that's worth it
if you have a certain frame of mind, and then being ready to take
whatever tradeoff comes along with it. It's the logical extension of
the W&H deal itself, but now Angel's controlling things to the extent
he can given the corner into which he's been backed (and backed
himself).
The "take one day to do whatever you want" thing is a little
contrived, but I have no problem with that. We went through the whole
year without seeing any of the main BTVS cast again, but the finale
makes time for Chantrlilyanne? I love you, show, but sometimes you
piss me off. I like the play of the scenes between Angel and Lindsey,
old enemies who respect each other to a degree and know about a few
personal things. Lindsey and Eve are able to take a little comfort in
each other the way none of the heroes can, but it's hard to begrudge
them that.
"The circle does not abide secrets." "Which is interesting for a
secret society." I laughed. Also at "I will shred my adversaries.
Pull their eyes out just enough to turn them towards their mewing,
mutilated faces." "You're a very inspirational person. Have I
mentioned that?" And at Lindsey's "it's nice to know you're one of
the few things in my life [Angel] didn't get his mitts on, you know?"
And one last gay joke for the road:
ANGEL: I want you, Lindsey.
(Mrs. Quality, during the ensuing pause: In bed.)
ANGEL: I'm thinking about rephrasing that.
LINDSEY: Yeah, I think I'd be more comfortable if you did.
And now, it's time to say goodbye...
SPIKE: It's odd to me how little he shaped the season. What I mean
is, I was prepared to accept him as Angel's equal in terms of
importance to the story, the way he was close to Buffy's on her show.
The series proceeded to give us Spike angling for Angel's role and on
a meta level threatening to take over ATS. But that story ended up
being all about Dead Boy #1, and by the time of "Not Fade Away," I
agree with those who say that Spike is very clearly one of the
sidekicks. He doesn't even get to do any extended on-screen fighting
in his last appearance; I wonder if there were any backstage factors
involved. Spending his last night on earth in a bar seems like a
disappointment at first, but that turns out to be the setup for him
finally finding an audience for his poetry, which is both hilarious
and poignant. "That was for Cecily." A toast to old loves before the
end.
HARMONY (and her boss): The only character other than Angel himself
to appear in both the first and last Buffyverse episodes. She gets a
nice mildly touching speech early on that reminds us how far this
whole world has come, and then she ends up betraying everyone. Never
forgot that she was an evil vampire, but I kinda hoped for her
anyway. The misdirect is that it's set up as a big suspenseful wrench
in the machine, but Angel not only saw it coming, but doesn't blame
Harm for being herself. It's one of several examples of the idea that
he knows his tools now and how to get best use out of them. He's in
control, though always to a limited extent, in his moment of defeat.
The letter of recommendation is another very good gag.
GUNN: Don't really have much new to say about him related to NFA,
although I'll mention that I really got to appreciate the character in
Season Five, far more than in previous years. I like the way he seems
to be treating Anne as a kind of role model, the part of the mission
they're leaving behind. And the bit where he kills the senator is
fun.
LORNE (and Lindsey, and the mastermind): I'd actually heard, without
knowing who said the lines or the context, of Lindsey's reaction to
being killed by a supporting cast member, and had totally forgotten
it, so it was exciting to finally see that. As much as I liked
watching Kane and his character, this couldn't have happened to a
nicer guy. I should've suspected something with all the emphasis
about how important Lorne would be as backup, and about this big job
he was going to do before running, but I was totally clueless. After
years of being jerked around by people like Mr. McDonald, Angel
learns, from him, how to make the game his own rather than the SP's,
and then he plays Lindsey completely. As for Lorne, he's really not
cut out for this lifestyle, but he came through with what he promised
to do before running away with the last shreds of his self-image.
Good for him. And I don't even mind him being the only one of the
core group (not counting Harmony) who definitely survives NFA.
WESLEY (and Eve): Wow. We've seen him apparently empty and lifeless
before - the end of Season Three comes to mind. I don't know if it's
ever been quite like this. There's a detachment to it that in some
ways makes it seem worse. It's one of the most matter-of-fact
deliveries you'll see (outside Angel in TSILA) on a line like "there
is nothing that I want." I was a little worried that he'd take
Illyria up on her offer, but he sees that it wouldn't help. It might
be worth contrasting him with Eve, who apparently stays behind to die
after learning what Angel's done to Lindsey. She's quietly crushed
and can't see anything worth wanting either, but Wesley's not like her
- he wants to live. I do believe his line suggesting that he was
holding out hope on getting through the day alive. So hey, guess
who's the only one of the core group who 100%, definitely,
unambiguously ends up dead? Joss Whedon is not a nice man. Wes does
admittedly seem slow to use his weapons against Vail, but I say he's
just trying to best deliver the killing blow. Just like at the end of
S3, no matter how dead inside he is, he never quits. Back then he
saved our hero. This time it's his persistence in helping an evil god-
king in need that's the ultimate instrument by which his fight gets
won.
ILLYRIA (and more about Wesley, whose paragraph was getting too
long): Yeah, I'd say she cared about her human. She did end up kinda
Anya-like after all at times, but with the power to channel her
sublimated desire to retaliate in as violent a manner as possible when
her authority is challenged. I think Wesley's dying moments may have
gotten me closer to crying than anything in "A Hole In The World." I
focused on the positive side of his story above, but it's
heartbreaking seeing him give in to fantasy at the end. Those tears
are earned as Fred talks about a happy afterlife where they'll be
together again, and Wes must be trying his hardest to believe it...
while he can't quite forget that an ending like that is as imaginary
as Fred is. Rather than delve too much into Illyria's side of things,
I'd just like to focus on the moment when she *makes Vail's fucking
head explode*. Those are some thoroughly awesome milliseconds there,
with an eruption of goop worthy of _Street Trash_. So damn cool.
CONNOR (and his dad): Of course that's where Angel would go. Not as
wild about their earlier scene together, because it's just a rehash of
the end of "Origin." But Connor casually showing up to save the day,
like Angel once dreamed he'd do? Great moment, and with a good line
attached to it: "come on. You drop by for a cup of coffee, and the
world's not ending? Please." Even so, this special guest appearance
still hasn't done much beyond reaffirming the themes of "Origin."
It's an indulgence. And I enjoy it a lot because I'm going to say
that _Angel_ is indulging its main character, giving him a few minutes
to bask in one of his triumphs. Surely he deserves that much.
"They'll destroy you." "As long as you're OK, they can't." He *did*
save Connor. I can never resist fan-wishing (and ruining the
simplicity of good stuff), but if I were able to arrange such things,
I'd have found a way to bring Faith into this scene too - that way
Angel could spend a last moment with the formerly hopeless who became
Champions before going off to die for our future or whatever.
The fight between Angel and Hamilton is good stuff too. Angel's the
one in control with the Sebassis thing, even when the fight itself is
a problem. Not that this stops the show from finding the humor in it,
because otherwise it wouldn't be ME ("did that hurt at all?" "Well, I
thought the fight would be going a little better.") I knew there was
a badass one-liner coming up, but I didn't catch on to which word
Jayne shouldn't have said until the part where Angel does the blood-
drinking vampire thing. Of course. Metaphor for Season Five, anyone?
The very last scene is a strong idea, but it's just slightly too
abrupt for my taste. Where did all the monsters come from, and are
they going to swarm across the world and kill everyone after they get
past our heroes? (Or are they specifically targeted at our guys?) If
the Senior Partners have always had the power to unleash something
like this, why not do so before? And so on, that nitpicky stuff gets
in the way a little. Thematically, of course, closing by facing a
hopeless battle with our heads up encapsulates the series, and of
course it had to happen in that alley. One of the last lines of the
show - "well, personally, I kind of want to slay the dragon" - is
about as purely Angel as one can get, and very much the character he's
become over the course of his show rather than the one he started as.
Strong way to end, although I hear it was controversial.
I wanted a special Mutant Enemy monster. None at all outside of BTVS.
For obvious reasons, this will be my final full-length Buffyverse
review as the Arbitrar Of Quality. It's been a pleasure discovering
these two shows and being a part of this. Despite the toll it's taken
on my time and the things I've had to put aside, this past year (plus)
has been incredibly rewarding. As always, my deep appreciation to
everyone who's read and contributed.
So...
One-sentence summary: YOU'RE GONNA CARRY THAT WEIGHT.
AOQ rating: Excellent
[Season Five ratings:
1) "Conviction" - Weak
2) "Just Rewards" - Good
3) "Unleashed" - Good
4) "Hell Bound" - Decent
5) "Life Of The Party" - Weak
6) "The Cautionary Tale Of Numero Cinco" - Decent
7) "Lineage" - Good
8) "Destiny" - Good
9) "Harm's Way" - Good
10) "Soul Purpose" - Good
11) "Damage" - Good
12) "You're Welcome" - Good
13) "Why We Fight" - Weak
14) "Smile Time" - Excellent
15) "A Hole In The World" - Decent
16) "Shells" - Good
17) "Underneath" - Good
18) "Origin" - Excellent
19) "Time Bomb" - Decent
20) "The Girl In Question" - Weak
21) "Power Play" - Good
22) "Not Fade Away" - Excellent]
BY THE NUMBERS
_Angel_ Season Five
Bad - 0
Weak - 4
Decent - 4
Good - 11
Excellent - 3
Average rating: 3.59 ["Good minus"] (Decent=3)
Quality Percentage [% of episodes ranking Good or higher]: 64%
_Angel_, complete series:
ABOMINATION - 0
Bad - 2
Weak - 9
Decent - 39
Good - 46
Excellent - 14
SUPERLATIVE - 0
Ratings by season:
S1: Mean = 3.45, 50% quality
S2: Mean = 3.45, 41% quality
S3: Mean = 3.68, 59% quality
S4: Mean = 3.59. 59% quality
S5: Mean = 3.59, 64% quality
Complete series: Mean= 3.55, 55% quality
(Harmony) Watcher
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1173336470.5...@8g2000cwh.googlegroups.com...
event that he and his pals would likely have trouble containing. In all
likelihood, they would all die. That's almost a given. But here Angel made
an implicit assumption (and a false one, in my thinking), that the SP would
only come after Angel & his cronies because unleashing hell on earth all out
would be bad for business and profit for the SP. Alas, it was an apocalypse!
And don't let Don or anyone else convince you otherwise :) It's a flying
dragon thing, you know.
For me, Angel was arrogant and selfish in this grand scheme of his in
wanting to hurt the SP. He started something which Angelus would be proud
of, something that is capable of destroying the world, or at least causing
massive and major pain and suffering to the little people he said he was
sworn to protect (c.f. his speech to Illyria right before Wesley shot Knox).
I'd like somebody to "psych 101" Angel in this crazy plan of his. Was he
really Angel or was he more like Angelus? Was his plan to hit, hurt and
insult the SP a sign of traumatic stress, a sign of losing all hope? Losing
Darla, losing Connor (in a way), losing Buffy (in a serious manner as Buffy
& Co. did not trust him any more), Doyle and Cordelia, so on and so forth.
And killing Drogyn is totally unacceptable to me even if we could imagine
Drogyn had consented to it in private, which we don't know. To me, this
apocalypse was more of an egotical trip for Angel out of desperation than
anything else. I think Angel just wanted out, he was too tired emotionally,
and he just wanted "game over".
But, of course, Spike would never stand idly by for something as stupid as
that. I have always imagined that he would secretly alert Buffy & her pals
that Angel was up to something no good long before he recited his
effulgence.
> <snip>
>
> And now, it's time to say goodbye...
> <snip>
>
> HARMONY (and her boss): The only character other than Angel himself
> to appear in both the first and last Buffyverse episodes. She gets a
> nice mildly touching speech early on that reminds us how far this
> whole world has come, and then she ends up betraying everyone.
>
You're confusing the vHarmony character with the hHarmony character! But
don't let's quibble :)
> <snip>
>
> The very last scene is a strong idea, but it's just slightly too
> abrupt for my taste. Where did all the monsters come from, and are
> they going to swarm across the world and kill everyone after they get
> past our heroes? (Or are they specifically targeted at our guys?) If
> the Senior Partners have always had the power to unleash something
> like this, why not do so before? And so on, that nitpicky stuff gets
> in the way a little.
>
It would only make sense if there was a plan B, unbeknownst to everyone in
LA except Angel.
> Thematically, of course, closing by facing a
> hopeless battle with our heads up encapsulates the series, and of
> course it had to happen in that alley. One of the last lines of the
> show - "well, personally, I kind of want to slay the dragon" - is
> about as purely Angel as one can get, and very much the character he's
> become over the course of his show rather than the one he started as.
> Strong way to end, although I hear it was controversial.
>
> I wanted a special Mutant Enemy monster. None at all outside of BTVS.
>
> For obvious reasons, this will be my final full-length Buffyverse
> review as the Arbitrar Of Quality. It's been a pleasure discovering
> these two shows and being a part of this. Despite the toll it's taken
> on my time and the things I've had to put aside, this past year (plus)
> has been incredibly rewarding. As always, my deep appreciation to
> everyone who's read and contributed.
>
>
Thank you for giving us more incentives to re-watch episodes that were less
than good.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> contrived, but I have no problem with that. We went through the whole
> year without seeing any of the main BTVS cast again, but the finale
> makes time for Chantrlilyanne? I love you, show, but sometimes you
you can see that a contrasting or complimentary method of fighting the darkness
it is also a restatement of the epiphany
anne isnt trying to save the world
she just trying to save one or two people
the way a strange girl from sunnydale saved her
> involved. Spending his last night on earth in a bar seems like a
> disappointment at first, but that turns out to be the setup for him
> finally finding an audience for his poetry, which is both hilarious
> and poignant. "That was for Cecily." A toast to old loves before the
> end.
and also this time his poem gets rousing cheers
from perhaps the least sympathetic crowd you can imagine
isntead of the condemnation and abuse of williams cultured peers
> HARMONY (and her boss): The only character other than Angel himself
> to appear in both the first and last Buffyverse episodes. She gets a
apparently mcnab as harmony was in the pre-pilot presentation
which makes her span the longest of all character
from before the beginning to the very end
> in the machine, but Angel not only saw it coming, but doesn't blame
> Harm for being herself. It's one of several examples of the idea that
angel not only saw it coming but was planning on it
to maneuver hamilton into the confrontation on angels ground
> LORNE (and Lindsey, and the mastermind): I'd actually heard, without
> knowing who said the lines or the context, of Lindsey's reaction to
it was a dirty little murder by lorne
sad to see him dragged into it
lindseys plan at the start of the season
was to abuse angel enough to get the attention of the black thorn
so they would invite into their ranks
making lindsey one of the big bads running the world
when that backfired and then angel revealed his plan
lindsey adapted to help destroy the black thorn
and in the resulting power vacuum he would kill angel
and make lindsey the big bad running the world
instead of he gets plugged in a mean little murder
and instead of ruling the world asks if this is the end of little caesar
he was so concerned about being the master of his own fate
trying to impose his will on the entire world
so that it could not impose its will on him
that he lost all control
good riddance
anne isnt interested in ruling the world
and she accepts she is controlled by greater powers than herself
but as long as she can keep a few cubic centimeters inside her skull inviolate
she has won
> holding out hope on getting through the day alive. So hey, guess
> who's the only one of the core group who 100%, definitely,
> unambiguously ends up dead? Joss Whedon is not a nice man. Wes does
hes not completely dead
hes just mostly dead
in season six illyria takes him to miracle max
i dont have problem with him taking a fantasy at the end
hes resisted illusion to go on fighting
but now that the fighting is over he can rest
> CONNOR (and his dad): Of course that's where Angel would go. Not as
> wild about their earlier scene together, because it's just a rehash of
> the end of "Origin." But Connor casually showing up to save the day,
one issue is that if connor is at stanford
thats half a state (the long direction not east west) away
and it would not be easy for angel to casually show up
it did establish that connor got all his memories back
one of the moral problems i had was the connor was an accomplice to murder
for which he showed no repentance
given that he was a minor and an abused child
i have no problem with getting a second chance
and treating his past crimes as a learning experience
but if connor didnt remember his crimes
he could not repent them or learn from them
now that he does remember i feel the morality has been sorted out
superpowers are kinda neat (like faith) but can be abused (like faith)
but if he remembers dragging an innocent girl to be butchered
i hope he will use those powers for good
> The very last scene is a strong idea, but it's just slightly too
> abrupt for my taste. Where did all the monsters come from, and are
> they going to swarm across the world and kill everyone after they get
> past our heroes? (Or are they specifically targeted at our guys?) If
some people think la is laid to waste (could you tell the difference)
and season six would be postapocalyptic mad max adventure
i didnt see anything that would be more than messy alley the next morning
that could be blamed on gang violence
> show - "well, personally, I kind of want to slay the dragon" - is
hey its the dragon from the gift finally showing up again
> For obvious reasons, this will be my final full-length Buffyverse
> review as the Arbitrar Of Quality. It's been a pleasure discovering
> these two shows and being a part of this. Despite the toll it's taken
> on my time and the things I've had to put aside, this past year (plus)
> has been incredibly rewarding. As always, my deep appreciation to
> everyone who's read and contributed.
he loved senior partners
meow arf meow - they are performing horrible experiments in space
major grubert is watching you - beware the bakalite
impeach the bastard - the airtight garage has you neo
Ken from Chicago
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in message
news:1173336470.5...@8g2000cwh.googlegroups.com...
> Season Five, Episode 22: "Not Fade Away"
> (or "Bang.")
> Writers: Jeffery Bell and Joss Whedon
> Director: Jeffrey Bell
>
> Jeff rather than Joss gets to direct the finale; I guess he was a big
> part of the shape of the show in the last couple seasons.
>
> Splitting the exposition across episodes (well, the episode break
> kinda divides "exposition" from "plan") there's some more standard
> bantering now that everyone's on the same page, but, you know, it's
> the last time ever.
>
> Our villains talk some sense but misread the situation when they want
> Angel to sign away his Shanshu. And thus we wipe out a big constant
> of the show with a binding contract. I think it works. The show
> treats it as almost an afterthought, as it is to Angel, and to the
> viewer - somewhere along the line, the reward became unimportant. The
> idea of this big heroic sacrifice does its job in balancing the need
Besides, the Shanshu was really about Spike. Angel was just a giant ME
misdirect. Spike is destined to become the male Slayer.
However Angel is destined for something ... greater ... something ... higher
... as in "higher being" (ala a certain glowing charmed-er, charismatic
one). Let's just say Angel will eventually live up to his name.
At least that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
> to convey both the futility - I mean, everyone dies except the
> villains - and making it kinda into something worth fighting for
> anyway. No one's giving up. Like I've been arguing, it's about
> sending a message to the cruel forces of the Universe that's worth it
> if you have a certain frame of mind, and then being ready to take
> whatever tradeoff comes along with it. It's the logical extension of
> the W&H deal itself, but now Angel's controlling things to the extent
> he can given the corner into which he's been backed (and backed
> himself).
I still say the show could have accomplished this AND still made the finale
more palatable by revealing that taking out the Circle of the Black Thorn
doesn't take down Wolfram and Hart--but would sever its link with this
dimension ... for say a century or a millennium, during a crucial time
period for humanity, truly on the edge of technological development capable
of total self destruction thru NON-MYSTICAL means (see Tara and "Seeing Red"
or Joyce and "The Body") OR finally stepping off this world ... for the
stars (or at least the planets).
Sure Wolfram and Hart would be back in a century there would be outposts on
other worlds and in a millennium, there'd be colonies at other stars.
Humanity's "eggs" would be spread out amongst multiple cosmic "baskets".
> The "take one day to do whatever you want" thing is a little
> contrived, but I have no problem with that. We went through the whole
> year without seeing any of the main BTVS cast again, but the finale
And which of said cast was available--and that the show could afford (at a
time when costs were a deep concern on the WB)?
> makes time for Chantrlilyanne? I love you, show, but sometimes you
"Continuity porn."
Look again at the title of the show. Bad enough there was backlash against
Angel-fans that Spike was going to ruin / take over the show. Nice to see
him become a part--tho it would have been nice to see him with people other
than Angel and Fredlyria because the character works well with others.
> in his last appearance; I wonder if there were any backstage factors
> involved. Spending his last night on earth in a bar seems like a
> disappointment at first, but that turns out to be the setup for him
> finally finding an audience for his poetry, which is both hilarious
> and poignant. "That was for Cecily." A toast to old loves before the
> end.
"Continuity porn."
> HARMONY (and her boss): The only character other than Angel himself
> to appear in both the first and last Buffyverse episodes. She gets a
> nice mildly touching speech early on that reminds us how far this
> whole world has come, and then she ends up betraying everyone. Never
> forgot that she was an evil vampire, but I kinda hoped for her
Yeah, but that makes "In Harm's Way" episode a big waste in the grand scheme
of things if she was just gonna be evil all along.
> anyway. The misdirect is that it's set up as a big suspenseful wrench
> in the machine, but Angel not only saw it coming, but doesn't blame
> Harm for being herself. It's one of several examples of the idea that
> he knows his tools now and how to get best use out of them. He's in
> control, though always to a limited extent, in his moment of defeat.
> The letter of recommendation is another very good gag.
>
> GUNN: Don't really have much new to say about him related to NFA,
> although I'll mention that I really got to appreciate the character in
> Season Five, far more than in previous years. I like the way he seems
Gunn defined on his own terms not just in a romantic relationship. All he
needs is a peroxide hairdo.
> to be treating Anne as a kind of role model, the part of the mission
> they're leaving behind. And the bit where he kills the senator is
> fun.
His game was tight, yo.
> LORNE (and Lindsey, and the mastermind): I'd actually heard, without
> knowing who said the lines or the context, of Lindsey's reaction to
> being killed by a supporting cast member, and had totally forgotten
> it, so it was exciting to finally see that. As much as I liked
> watching Kane and his character, this couldn't have happened to a
> nicer guy. I should've suspected something with all the emphasis
> about how important Lorne would be as backup, and about this big job
> he was going to do before running, but I was totally clueless. After
> years of being jerked around by people like Mr. McDonald, Angel
> learns, from him, how to make the game his own rather than the SP's,
> and then he plays Lindsey completely. As for Lorne, he's really not
> cut out for this lifestyle, but he came through with what he promised
> to do before running away with the last shreds of his self-image.
> Good for him. And I don't even mind him being the only one of the
> core group (not counting Harmony) who definitely survives NFA.
Lorne was the big surprise and disappointment this episode. If Harmony was
an example of Angel knowing his tools and how to use them well, Lorne was
the direct opposite. What was the point? Angel couldn't get Spike or Gunn or
Wes or Illyria or Gwen or Faith or any number of allies, clients, mercs to
"liberate" Lindsay?
> WESLEY (and Eve): Wow. We've seen him apparently empty and lifeless
> before - the end of Season Three comes to mind. I don't know if it's
> ever been quite like this. There's a detachment to it that in some
> ways makes it seem worse. It's one of the most matter-of-fact
> deliveries you'll see (outside Angel in TSILA) on a line like "there
> is nothing that I want." I was a little worried that he'd take
> Illyria up on her offer, but he sees that it wouldn't help. It might
> be worth contrasting him with Eve, who apparently stays behind to die
> after learning what Angel's done to Lindsey. She's quietly crushed
> and can't see anything worth wanting either, but Wesley's not like her
> - he wants to live. I do believe his line suggesting that he was
> holding out hope on getting through the day alive. So hey, guess
> who's the only one of the core group who 100%, definitely,
> unambiguously ends up dead? Joss Whedon is not a nice man.
Well of course Whedon's not nice. He's a writer.
WRITERS ARE EVIL!
How many times to I gotta repeat that? How many? Until I'm Illyria in the
face? It's what writers do. It's who they are.
On the flip side, it's stomach stabbing. Those are notoriously slow--tho
painful--wounds. The guy survived the night with his throat slit. He might
have survived a poke in the gut--especially if Illyria knew CPR, applied
direct pressure to the wound, took him to a hospital, or even dialed 911.
Wes does
> admittedly seem slow to use his weapons against Vail, but I say he's
> just trying to best deliver the killing blow. Just like at the end of
> S3, no matter how dead inside he is, he never quits. Back then he
> saved our hero. This time it's his persistence in helping an evil god-
> king in need that's the ultimate instrument by which his fight gets
> won.
Wes is all about making the hard choices--no matter the personal cost.
> ILLYRIA (and more about Wesley, whose paragraph was getting too
> long): Yeah, I'd say she cared about her human. She did end up kinda
> Anya-like after all at times, but with the power to channel her
> sublimated desire to retaliate in as violent a manner as possible when
> her authority is challenged. I think Wesley's dying moments may have
> gotten me closer to crying than anything in "A Hole In The World." I
> focused on the positive side of his story above, but it's
> heartbreaking seeing him give in to fantasy at the end. Those tears
Did he give in? Or did he let Illyria help him in the only way she knew how?
Did he help her help him? Sometimes that's the only way the dying can help
the living--by accepting the help offered by the living.
Or as Jerry Maquire put it, help them help you.
> are earned as Fred talks about a happy afterlife where they'll be
> together again, and Wes must be trying his hardest to believe it...
> while he can't quite forget that an ending like that is as imaginary
> as Fred is. Rather than delve too much into Illyria's side of things,
> I'd just like to focus on the moment when she *makes Vail's fucking
> head explode*. Those are some thoroughly awesome milliseconds there,
> with an eruption of goop worthy of _Street Trash_. So damn cool.
"Street Trash"?
> CONNOR (and his dad): Of course that's where Angel would go. Not as
> wild about their earlier scene together, because it's just a rehash of
> the end of "Origin." But Connor casually showing up to save the day,
> like Angel once dreamed he'd do? Great moment, and with a good line
> attached to it: "come on. You drop by for a cup of coffee, and the
> world's not ending? Please." Even so, this special guest appearance
> still hasn't done much beyond reaffirming the themes of "Origin."
> It's an indulgence. And I enjoy it a lot because I'm going to say
> that _Angel_ is indulging its main character, giving him a few minutes
> to bask in one of his triumphs. Surely he deserves that much.
"Continuity porn."
> "They'll destroy you." "As long as you're OK, they can't." He *did*
> save Connor. I can never resist fan-wishing (and ruining the
> simplicity of good stuff), but if I were able to arrange such things,
> I'd have found a way to bring Faith into this scene too - that way
> Angel could spend a last moment with the formerly hopeless who became
> Champions before going off to die for our future or whatever.
"Continuity pornographer."
> The fight between Angel and Hamilton is good stuff too. Angel's the
> one in control with the Sebassis thing, even when the fight itself is
> a problem. Not that this stops the show from finding the humor in it,
> because otherwise it wouldn't be ME ("did that hurt at all?" "Well, I
> thought the fight would be going a little better.") I knew there was
> a badass one-liner coming up, but I didn't catch on to which word
Ah, but 12-year fans of ATS and BTVS caught it right away--right in the
jugular.
> Jayne shouldn't have said until the part where Angel does the blood-
> drinking vampire thing. Of course. Metaphor for Season Five, anyone?
>
> The very last scene is a strong idea, but it's just slightly too
> abrupt for my taste. Where did all the monsters come from, and are
> they going to swarm across the world and kill everyone after they get
> past our heroes? (Or are they specifically targeted at our guys?) If
Other dimensions.
No/
(Yes.)
> the Senior Partners have always had the power to unleash something
> like this, why not do so before? And so on, that nitpicky stuff gets
Walking happy meals are needed--alive--by the SP to sacrifice, to seduce, to
corrupt, to make deals with.
> in the way a little. Thematically, of course, closing by facing a
> hopeless battle with our heads up encapsulates the series, and of
> course it had to happen in that alley. One of the last lines of the
Where Darla died and Connor was born, next to the Hyperion?
> show - "well, personally, I kind of want to slay the dragon" - is
> about as purely Angel as one can get, and very much the character he's
> become over the course of his show rather than the one he started as.
> Strong way to end, although I hear it was controversial.
What you said about the abruptness, and the hopelessness and not seeing them
get in a few licks before the dying (he said in a specifically unusual way).
> I wanted a special Mutant Enemy monster. None at all outside of BTVS.
Huh?
> For obvious reasons, this will be my final full-length Buffyverse
> review as the Arbitrar Of Quality. It's been a pleasure discovering
> these two shows and being a part of this. Despite the toll it's taken
> on my time and the things I've had to put aside, this past year (plus)
> has been incredibly rewarding. As always, my deep appreciation to
> everyone who's read and contributed.
So no review of the comics (or novels)? not even the "Season 8" BUFFY comic
that Joss is doing?
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: YOU'RE GONNA CARRY THAT WEIGHT.
Atlas? Sissyphus?
3.55 out of 4 or out of 5?
-- Ken from Chicago
P.S. 4.9 out 5 for reviewing quality (with the 0.1 taken off for daring to
disagree with the slightest thing I say).
Apteryx
news:1173336470.5...@8g2000cwh.googlegroups.com...
> Season Five, Episode 22: "Not Fade Away"
> (or "Bang.")
> Writers: Jeffery Bell and Joss Whedon
> Director: Jeffrey Bell
>
>
> Angel to sign away his Shanshu. And thus we wipe out a big constant
> of the show with a binding contract. I think it works.
The first of a couple of things that I have logical quibbles with, but which
work emotionally. Suddenly a prophecy, a prediction made long ago by someone
with the gift of foreknowledge is a property right that the person referred
to in the prophecy can sign away? How come Sahjhan never thought of that?
But as a result, Angel get to show that what he is doing is not for any
reward. He is doing it (and here you should imagine SMG as Faith practising
saying it in the mirror) because it's right.
> The "take one day to do whatever you want" thing is a little
> contrived, but I have no problem with that.
That's the second one. Logically pretty silly, but this is the last episode,
and gives the writers and actors a last chance to finally define the
characters.
> We went through the whole
> year without seeing any of the main BTVS cast again, but the finale
> makes time for Chantrlilyanne?
I loved Anne's appearance. She is the refutations to those who think the
ending reeks of hopelessness. All the while the Buffy and Angel stories have
been centre-stage, there has obviously been a very significant Anne story
from going on in the background. From the flake of Lie to Me to the strong
confident woman of NFA, dedicated to making a difference in the world. The
SPs have had their hands full fighting Angel for 5 years, but if the get
past him here and move on to confront Anne and her like, they don't stand a
chance.
>
> And now, it's time to say goodbye...
>
> SPIKE: It's odd to me how little he shaped the season. What I mean
> is, I was prepared to accept him as Angel's equal in terms of
> importance to the story, the way he was close to Buffy's on her show.
> The series proceeded to give us Spike angling for Angel's role and on
> a meta level threatening to take over ATS. But that story ended up
> being all about Dead Boy #1, and by the time of "Not Fade Away," I
> agree with those who say that Spike is very clearly one of the
> sidekicks.
I'll drink to that. For me, the weakest part of the season was the
Spike-centric early episodes. For while it seemed the series name might be
changes to "Spike" (whereas as far as I was concerned, it should long since
have been changed to "Wesley")
> He doesn't even get to do any extended on-screen fighting
> in his last appearance; I wonder if there were any backstage factors
> involved. Spending his last night on earth in a bar seems like a
> disappointment at first, but that turns out to be the setup for him
> finally finding an audience for his poetry, which is both hilarious
> and poignant. "That was for Cecily." A toast to old loves before the
> end.
A great scene, probably the best moment of the perfect day scenes. I love
the way he very nervously approaches the lines that caused derision in the
past, and gets such an encouraging response he feels able to lauch into the
tale of "The Wanton Folly of My Mum"
> HARMONY (and her boss): The only character other than Angel himself
> to appear in both the first and last Buffyverse episodes.
I think only if you are counting WTTH and The Harvest as one episode, as
they were originally broadcast (or are counting the unaired pilot). But an
old hand certainly. One of the few whose first episode and last spans a
larger number of episodes than Chantrlilyanne
> She gets a
> nice mildly touching speech early on that reminds us how far this
> whole world has come, and then she ends up betraying everyone. Never
> forgot that she was an evil vampire, but I kinda hoped for her
> anyway. The misdirect is that it's set up as a big suspenseful wrench
> in the machine, but Angel not only saw it coming, but doesn't blame
> Harm for being herself. It's one of several examples of the idea that
> he knows his tools now and how to get best use out of them. He's in
> control, though always to a limited extent, in his moment of defeat.
> The letter of recommendation is another very good gag.
And at least she is not slavishly devoted to the representives of evil on
earth - she is prepared to stay neutral on the fight between Angel and
Hamilton with her parting words, "may the best man win"
> GUNN: Don't really have much new to say about him related to NFA,
> although I'll mention that I really got to appreciate the character in
> Season Five, far more than in previous years. I like the way he seems
> to be treating Anne as a kind of role model, the part of the mission
> they're leaving behind. And the bit where he kills the senator is
> fun.
Gunn fades a bit in this one. But that is partly because his perfect day is
not some self-centred pleasure. He initially objects to the very idea of the
perfect day. When he has to have one, he spends it fighting for good at
ground level, before taking it to a higher level that evening.
> LORNE (and Lindsey, and the mastermind): I'd actually heard, without
> knowing who said the lines or the context, of Lindsey's reaction to
> being killed by a supporting cast member, and had totally forgotten
> it, so it was exciting to finally see that. As much as I liked
> watching Kane and his character, this couldn't have happened to a
> nicer guy. I should've suspected something with all the emphasis
> about how important Lorne would be as backup, and about this big job
> he was going to do before running, but I was totally clueless. After
> years of being jerked around by people like Mr. McDonald, Angel
> learns, from him, how to make the game his own rather than the SP's,
> and then he plays Lindsey completely. As for Lorne, he's really not
> cut out for this lifestyle, but he came through with what he promised
> to do before running away with the last shreds of his self-image.
> Good for him. And I don't even mind him being the only one of the
> core group (not counting Harmony) who definitely survives NFA.
>
> WESLEY (and Eve): Wow. We've seen him apparently empty and lifeless
> before - the end of Season Three comes to mind. I don't know if it's
> ever been quite like this. There's a detachment to it that in some
> ways makes it seem worse. It's one of the most matter-of-fact
> deliveries you'll see (outside Angel in TSILA) on a line like "there
> is nothing that I want."
I'm not sure its entirely true though. I don't think its an accident that
his prefect day leads him to Illyria. She may not be what he wants, but
she's the closest thing to it on earth.
> just trying to best deliver the killing blow. Just like at the end of
> S3, no matter how dead inside he is, he never quits. Back then he
> saved our hero. This time it's his persistence in helping an evil god-
> king in need that's the ultimate instrument by which his fight gets
> won.
I mentioned the journey Anne has obviously been on, but of the main
characters, what about Wesley? He gives hope to geeks everywhere. All they
have to do it kidnap their best friends infant son, get their throats cut,
keep a slavegirl in their closet, and sleep with an evil lawyer, and they
too can develop real depths. And clearly he was the right person to
rehabilitate Illyria. He is a Rogue Demon Hunter after all. He just
graduated to bring 'em back alive.
> ILLYRIA (and more about Wesley, whose paragraph was getting too
> long): Yeah, I'd say she cared about her human. She did end up kinda
> Anya-like after all at times, but with the power to channel her
> sublimated desire to retaliate in as violent a manner as possible when
> her authority is challenged. I think Wesley's dying moments may have
> gotten me closer to crying than anything in "A Hole In The World."
The commentary mentions camera crew with tears in their eyes as it was
filmed. And for me Wesley's death (closely followed by Vail's) is one of the
series highlights.
> CONNOR (and his dad): Of course that's where Angel would go. Not as
> wild about their earlier scene together, because it's just a rehash of
> the end of "Origin." But Connor casually showing up to save the day,
> like Angel once dreamed he'd do? Great moment, and with a good line
> attached to it: "come on. You drop by for a cup of coffee, and the
> world's not ending? Please." Even so, this special guest appearance
> still hasn't done much beyond reaffirming the themes of "Origin."
> It's an indulgence. And I enjoy it a lot because I'm going to say
> that _Angel_ is indulging its main character, giving him a few minutes
> to bask in one of his triumphs. Surely he deserves that much.
> "They'll destroy you." "As long as you're OK, they can't."
The Shanshu reasserting itself despite the signature in blood.
> Not that this stops the show from finding the humor in it,
> because otherwise it wouldn't be ME ("did that hurt at all?" "Well, I
> thought the fight would be going a little better.")
Not a fan of the fights, but that was a great line
> The very last scene is a strong idea, but it's just slightly too
> abrupt for my taste. Where did all the monsters come from, and are
> they going to swarm across the world and kill everyone after they get
> past our heroes? (Or are they specifically targeted at our guys?) If
> the Senior Partners have always had the power to unleash something
> like this, why not do so before?
Clearly they are targetting our guys, what they will do if and when they get
past them is anyone's guess. But even if Lyndsey was wrong about the SPs
apocalypse being a quiet one going on around us in everyday life, and this
is in fact their long planned apocalypse, Angel has forced their hand, made
them strike before the time they judged would give them their best chance.
> in the way a little. Thematically, of course, closing by facing a
> hopeless battle with our heads up encapsulates the series, and of
> course it had to happen in that alley.
See, I don't think its hopeless. Gunn's statement about the 30,000 on the
left is clearly jocular exaggeration. There isn't room for more than a
couple of hundred to deploy within his field of view from that alley
(probably less, given that its dark and he's dying) even if there are more
about elsewhere. All we actually see is 1 dragon, 1 definite giant, 3 larger
than normal humanoids, and 10-12 shorter than normal, severely hampered in
their movements by their robes. It's left to the imagination of the viewer
how many other monsters there may be out of view. Some prefer to imagine a
horde so vast that survival is impossible. But Angel earlier estimated their
chances of survival at 10:1 against. And he's a pretty pessimistic guy. And
was probably estimating at the pessimistic end of the range to avoid giving
his team false hope. So even though their chances may be less than even, I
think their position is far from hopeless.
>
> I wanted a special Mutant Enemy monster. None at all outside of BTVS.
Yeah, they dropped the ball on that one.
> For obvious reasons, this will be my final full-length Buffyverse
> review as the Arbitrar Of Quality. It's been a pleasure discovering
> these two shows and being a part of this. Despite the toll it's taken
> on my time and the things I've had to put aside, this past year (plus)
> has been incredibly rewarding. As always, my deep appreciation to
> everyone who's read and contributed.
It has been a great trip. A very enjoyable way of reliving these shows. And
even when your ratings have been off the wall (BBB Bad, Passion Decent, Ted
& DMP Excellent to name but four) your reviews have always been
entertaining.
>
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: YOU'RE GONNA CARRY THAT WEIGHT.
>
> AOQ rating: Excellent
Excellent for me too. The flaw of Drogyn's death in PP hangs over it, but I
can live with it. I assume the idea was for that to have repercussions in
season 6, in which case they may actually have made the mistake of changing
too little of the ending to accommodate the fact that it was the end of the
series. For me, even though I didn't rate AtS as highly as BtVS, it managed
a much better send-off. NFA is my 2nd favourite AtS episode, 2nd best in
season 5
--
Apteryx
Elisi
> ANGEL
> Season Five, Episode 22: "Not Fade Away"
> (or "Bang.")
or "Hello Apocalypse!'
> there's some more standard
> bantering now that everyone's on the same page, but, you know, it's
> the last time ever.
*sniff*
And as usual, the_royal_anna has *the* best post:
http://the-royal-anna.livejournal.com/31285.html
> Our villains talk some sense but misread the situation when they want
> Angel to sign away his Shanshu. And thus we wipe out a big constant
> of the show with a binding contract. I think it works. The show
> treats it as almost an afterthought, as it is to Angel, and to the
> viewer - somewhere along the line, the reward became unimportant. The
> idea of this big heroic sacrifice does its job in balancing the need
> to convey both the futility - I mean, everyone dies except the
> villains - and making it kinda into something worth fighting for
> anyway.
*nods a lot*
Also - and this is a viewpoint held by a large part of fandom - it can
be argued that Connor *is* the shanshu.
> No one's giving up. Like I've been arguing, it's about
> sending a message to the cruel forces of the Universe that's worth it
> if you have a certain frame of mind, and then being ready to take
> whatever tradeoff comes along with it. It's the logical extension of
> the W&H deal itself, but now Angel's controlling things to the extent
> he can given the corner into which he's been backed (and backed
> himself).
That's it. And now I'll quote from a (very, very long) interview with
David Fury (http://www.mikejozic.com/buffyweek6.html):
FURY: The really cool thing about Season 6, we knew how Season 5 was
going to end very early on and we knew what it was going to launch
into with Season 6, which was a post-apocalyptic show [and] which I
thought was going to be great. It was going to be Angel in The Road
Warrior, which I thought would be awesome. In the ruined city of LA or
out in the desert or something, it was just going to be kind of a
really cool, different, show.
There were lots of talks about who could we load in here, who would be
great to return and, if there is an apocalypse, who would survive it?
Who will be in the show next season?
<snip>
JOZIC: I thought the ending was brilliant, although I know a few
people who didn't care for the lack of a tidy resolution. What are
your thoughts on the finale?
FURY: Again, we had planned this very early on. The basic idea was to
discover who the architects of the apocalypse were and then were going
to do this Godfather-like massacre where all of our characters were
going to go killing each of them, and the last beat of the episode
would be Angel and whoever was left of his crew about to launch into
the apocalypse. You know, "Let's go, let's move...whatever."
My thought on that is, that's the perfect way to end the show. The
point of Buffy was always girl power and showing that power. The point
of Angel was always that the fight never ends. He'll always fight.
It's an eternity of fighting. You can't ever win but the fight is
worth fighting. That was a perfect 'going out' scene - you know, the
Butch Cassidy/Sundance Kid sort of we're going up against impossible
odds and probably die? That's the perfect way to end the series, and
anybody who says otherwise is dumb.
[me: *loud cheers*]
Any proper resolution of, "Oh, we've defeated the demons, they've gone
back to hell, let's get a beer," just would have been absolutely wrong
for that show.
JOZIC: I've always perceived Buffy as being that core group of
characters - Xander, Buffy and Willow - and that was kind of preserved
at the end of that series. They had that scene that was an homage to
"The Harvest" where Giles says, "The world is doomed," and they go
off. Angel, on the other hand, has always been full of struggle and
characters are always dying so I thought the end was very much in
keeping with that struggle, that keep on fighting sort of...
FURY: The interesting thing is, all the people Angel started out with
are all dead now.
JOZIC: Yeah, a friend of mine pointed that out right after that
episode.
FURY: Unlike Buffy who ended up with her three friends and were able
to end in that way, in Angel's case, everybody that he's ever been
close to dies, which is really Angel's story - that he will always
outlive the people he cares about. He has gone on and on, he has seen
people he loves die, which is another reason that he and Buffy
realized they couldn't be together. He being a vampire, he will watch
her die. But the fact that he was side-by-side with Spike was kind of
a wonderful turnaround in the mythology of the series.
JOZIC: There's Butch and Sundance right there.
FURY: That's absolutely right. That's one thing that I really wanted
to do in episode 100 when I was trying to break it. I really wanted to
have Spike and Angel fight side-by-side. I was desperate to put that
in my episode but it was for a later time.
************
Apparently when working out the finale David had the idea of Angel
winning the shanshu and giving it to Spike - who would naturally be
furious because he wanted to win it himself - and then Spike would go
off to Rome to be with Buffy. Joss vetoed it because he wanted to keep
Spike a vampire for possible future projects and (although I adore
Spuffy to eternity and beyond) I am *so* glad he did. I love the idea
of Spike and Angel fighting the good fight side by side forever.
And the ending of NFA is *perfect*. I'm quite curious about Joss' S8
comic books (might or might not get them), and have no problem with
him telling more stories about Buffy. But I _don't_ want him to touch
anything post-NFA. (Not that comic books are canon in my mind anyway.)
The story stops in that alley.
> The "take one day to do whatever you want" thing is a little
> contrived, but I have no problem with that. We went through the whole
> year without seeing any of the main BTVS cast again, but the finale
> makes time for Chantrlilyanne? I love you, show, but sometimes you
> piss me off.
Oh no! Anne is very, very important and those scenes are amongst my
favourites. As you say further down, Anne is the one carrying on the
original mission, helping the hopeless/helpless. And also she's a
stand-in for Buffy (she has Buffy's name after all!), the proof that
everyone can make a difference, that the world _is_ worth fighting
for. She is the embodiment of the second part of Angel's 'if nothing
we do matters, then all that matters is what we do' speech:
"I wanna help because - I don't think people should suffer, as they
do. Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of
kindness - is the greatest thing in the world."
GUNN: What if I told you it doesn't help? What would you do if you
found out that none of it matters?
That it's all controlled by forces more powerful and uncaring than we
can conceive, and they will never let it get better down here. What
would you do?
ANNE: I'd get this truck packed before the new stuff gets here.
A lot of people complain that Angel lost sight of that original
mission, and yes, to a certain extent he did. But - there are still
people out there, all doing their little part. It's an important
message. I think I cheered out loud when I saw her the first time.
> And at Lindsey's "it's nice to know you're one of
> the few things in my life [Angel] didn't get his mitts on, you know?"
> And one last gay joke for the road:
> ANGEL: I want you, Lindsey.
> (Mrs. Quality, during the ensuing pause: In bed.)
> ANGEL: I'm thinking about rephrasing that.
> LINDSEY: Yeah, I think I'd be more comfortable if you did.
Joss *loves* to play up this stuff! *happy sigh*
> SPIKE: It's odd to me how little he shaped the season. What I mean
> is, I was prepared to accept him as Angel's equal in terms of
> importance to the story, the way he was close to Buffy's on her show.
> The series proceeded to give us Spike angling for Angel's role and on
> a meta level threatening to take over ATS. But that story ended up
> being all about Dead Boy #1, and by the time of "Not Fade Away," I
> agree with those who say that Spike is very clearly one of the
> sidekicks.
Spike is mostly used as a mirror for Angel in S5 (if there'd been a
S6, who knows? The WB are filthy people! We will speak of them *no
more*!), but - in a very real sense he _takes over_ Angel's role.
Angel is compromised at every turn, and in the end makes some very un-
heroic decisions... but Spike never does. I wrote a whole essay about
it (http://elisi.livejournal.com/221671.html) large parts of which
I've used here over the course of the season. My final points being
these:
What task does Angel give Spike when they dismatle the arcitects of
the apocalypse? He sends him to save a baby boy from a horrible
destiny ("And on the eve of his 13th year, he will be prepared for the
rites of Gordabach... it's a ritual sacri-") , returning him to his
parents! Making Spike replay a replica of his biggest failure
(Connor), changing the outcome. [Yes I know he saved Connor in the
end, but the price was *huge*] Along with signing away the shanshu he
has now helped to turn Spike into himself, but a version without the
big defeats and compromises. A him that can be saved, one that still
has a shot at redemption. Handing over the reigns, instead of fearing
they'll be taken away.
Not a usurper. A legacy.
> Spending his last night on earth in a bar seems like a
> disappointment at first, but that turns out to be the setup for him
> finally finding an audience for his poetry, which is both hilarious
> and poignant. "That was for Cecily." A toast to old loves before the
> end.
I'm going to declare his poem 'magnificent', because truly it is:
"My soul is wrapped in harsh repose,
midnight descends in raven-colored clothes,
but soft...behold!
A sunlight beam
cutting a swath of glimmering gleam.
My heart expands,
'tis grown a bulge in it,
inspired by your beauty...
effulgent."
To quote the_royal_anna:
"A poem for Cecily, that is a poem about Drusilla; about his turning;
about Buffy; about a moment on the hellmouth when a vampire with a
soul gave everything he had to save the world; about everything that
makes him who he is."
I love the fact that he finally finished it.
> GUNN: And the bit where he kills the senator is
> fun.
Love how they make them all come full cirlce - Gunn is back to
fighting vampires. Apparently J. A. R. always thought it'd be a nice
ending for the character if he was vamped and then staked himself...
> LORNE (and Lindsey, and the mastermind): As much as I liked
> watching Kane and his character, this couldn't have happened to a
> nicer guy. After
> years of being jerked around by people like Mr. McDonald, Angel
> learns, from him, how to make the game his own rather than the SP's,
> and then he plays Lindsey completely.
And he _tells him_, right there:
ANGEL: I happen to be the greatest mass murderer you've ever met.
Damn this show is good.
> As for Lorne, he's really not
> cut out for this lifestyle, but he came through with what he promised
> to do before running away with the last shreds of his self-image.
> Good for him.
Poor, poor Lorne. The hardest thing in this world is to live in it...
> WESLEY (and Eve): Wow. We've seen him apparently empty and lifeless
> before - the end of Season Three comes to mind. I don't know if it's
> ever been quite like this. There's a detachment to it that in some
> ways makes it seem worse. It's one of the most matter-of-fact
> deliveries you'll see (outside Angel in TSILA) on a line like "there
> is nothing that I want."
To quote yhlee:
Wesley: "There is no perfect day for me, Illyria." How did I know
Wesley was going to say that? (Frankly, I expect Wesley's magic-dream
"perfect day" fantasy to involve him going through excruciatingly
psychological torture and anguish and then dying with the merest hope
of having made a difference. So really, his life is his perfect day.
Um. Under this hypothesis.)
> It might
> be worth contrasting him with Eve, who apparently stays behind to die
> after learning what Angel's done to Lindsey. She's quietly crushed
> and can't see anything worth wanting either,
Eve might be the most tragic character on the entire show.
> but Wesley's not like her
> - he wants to live. I do believe his line suggesting that he was
> holding out hope on getting through the day alive.
"It's a bleak and joyless world where heroes do not fight because they
have hope, but fight because fighting is their only manifestation of
hope."
the_royal_anna
> So hey, guess
> who's the only one of the core group who 100%, definitely,
> unambiguously ends up dead? Joss Whedon is not a nice man.
*nods*
> ILLYRIA (and more about Wesley, whose paragraph was getting too
> long): Yeah, I'd say she cared about her human. I think Wesley's dying moments may have
> gotten me closer to crying than anything in "A Hole In The World."
Same here. And how about having both of them dying in each other's
arms? Could that have happened anywhere else?
> I
> focused on the positive side of his story above, but it's
> heartbreaking seeing him give in to fantasy at the end.
Oh, but it isn't a lie, is it? That's the beauty of it - the lie
becomes truth.
Illyria: "Wesley's dead. I'm feeling grief for him. I can't seem to
control it."
And what is greater? The love of Fred - or the love of an ancient God?
Wesley really was the most extraordinary man.
> Rather than delve too much into Illyria's side of things,
> I'd just like to focus on the moment when she *makes Vail's fucking
> head explode*. Those are some thoroughly awesome milliseconds there,
> with an eruption of goop worthy of _Street Trash_. So damn cool.
Word. Never get tired of that. And the way she changes mid-punch...
*is a very happy fangirl*
> CONNOR (and his dad): Of course that's where Angel would go. Not as
> wild about their earlier scene together, because it's just a rehash of
> the end of "Origin."
After the "You girl!" line, these lines got cut: "Good penmanship used
to be a sign of masculinity." "When? Like, in the eighteenth century?"
"The latter half."
> But Connor casually showing up to save the day,
> like Angel once dreamed he'd do? Great moment, and with a good line
> attached to it: "come on. You drop by for a cup of coffee, and the
> world's not ending? Please."
There are large parts of S3 and 4 that are only bearable to re-watch
becuase I know the ending.
> It's an indulgence. And I enjoy it a lot because I'm going to say
> that _Angel_ is indulging its main character, giving him a few minutes
> to bask in one of his triumphs. Surely he deserves that much.
> "They'll destroy you." "As long as you're OK, they can't." He *did*
> save Connor.
Yup. Just beautiful.
> The fight between Angel and Hamilton is good stuff too. Angel's the
> one in control with the Sebassis thing, even when the fight itself is
> a problem. Not that this stops the show from finding the humor in it,
> because otherwise it wouldn't be ME ("did that hurt at all?" "Well, I
> thought the fight would be going a little better.") I knew there was
> a badass one-liner coming up, but I didn't catch on to which word
> Jayne shouldn't have said until the part where Angel does the blood-
> drinking vampire thing. Of course. Metaphor for Season Five, anyone?
I think Angel drinks more blood in S5 than the whole rest of the show
put together. The early episodes especially are *full* of drinking/
eating/devouring imagery, as well the whole 'they're being eaten by
the beast' that they keep hitting us over the head with. And then in
the end - Angel turns around and eats the beast. *is impossibly happy*
Also - it is the final part of Angel intergrating his two halves. If
he were not a vampire - he would have been no one, as Hamilton points
out. I wouls have loves to have seen a fully integrated Angel in S6...
> The very last scene is a strong idea, but it's just slightly too
> abrupt for my taste. Where did all the monsters come from,
Sebassis apparently has 40000 demons at his command...
> and are
> they going to swarm across the world and kill everyone after they get
> past our heroes?
Quite possibly. It's that thing beginning with 'A' and ending in
'pocalypse'... And this is where the show is so *impossibly* great. We
have known since S1 that W&H are keeping Angel around because he's a
key player in the apocalypse, only no one knows what side he'll be on.
Now - he's apparently unleashed it in full. Is kick-starting The
Apocalypse really a good thing? I'd say the prophecy was fullfilled -
to the letter.
> (Or are they specifically targeted at our guys?) If
> the Senior Partners have always had the power to unleash something
> like this, why not do so before?
I think I sort-of answered it above, but also they've always liked the
pen more than the sword.
> Thematically, of course, closing by facing a
> hopeless battle with our heads up encapsulates the series, and of
> course it had to happen in that alley. One of the last lines of the
> show - "well, personally, I kind of want to slay the dragon" - is
> about as purely Angel as one can get, and very much the character he's
> become over the course of his show rather than the one he started as.
> Strong way to end, although I hear it was controversial.
Ending on a cliff hanger? Evil. (But in a good way.)
> For obvious reasons, this will be my final full-length Buffyverse
> review as the Arbitrar Of Quality. It's been a pleasure discovering
> these two shows and being a part of this. Despite the toll it's taken
> on my time and the things I've had to put aside, this past year (plus)
> has been incredibly rewarding. As always, my deep appreciation to
> everyone who's read and contributed.
Thank *you*! It's been a lot of fun (and you got me to rewatch S7 and
AtS S5 as well as various eps along the way, which was wonderful - and
time consuming). Now you should get a livejournal!
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: YOU'RE GONNA CARRY THAT WEIGHT.
>
> AOQ rating: Excellent
Amen.
> S1: Mean = 3.45, 50% quality
> S2: Mean = 3.45, 41% quality
> S3: Mean = 3.68, 59% quality
> S4: Mean = 3.59. 59% quality
> S5: Mean = 3.59, 64% quality
:)
> Complete series: Mean= 3.55, 55% quality
Now I must go look up your numbers for Buffy.
Elisi
Actually, there's even more to it. Anne's appearance might be the most
important thing in the entire episode in terms of message. Because
Anne is _us_!
See isn't no co-incidence that she started off on BtVS, but finished
on ATS. Buffy is all about growing up and finding out who you are and
where you want to go. Angel is about the daily grind, about early
hopes and dreams lost, but about life still being worth it. And this
is where Anne comes in...
She first appears in 'Lie To Me', one of the pivotal 'growing up'
episode, having to face harsh truths:
Angel: I've seen this type before. I mean, they're children making up
bedtime stories of friendly vampires to comfort themselves in the
dark.
Willow: Is that so bad? I mean, the dark can get pretty dark.
Sometimes you need a story.
But Chantarelle/Lily learns that lesson. When we first see her again
in 'Anne', she has grown some, but not all that much - she clings to
her boyfried, scared of standing on her own legs until Buffy shows her
that she can. And then in 'Blood Money' we see what she did next.
Anne: "Well, I'd say for sure you're a vampire. Human being would be
in the hospital, the beating you took."
Angel: "And that doesn't frighten you."
Anne: "A few years ago it would have been a big turn on. I thought
vampires were the coolest."
Angel: "What happened?"
Anne: "I met one."
Angel: "You're not afraid of me."
Anne: "Well, I've seen worse things since. A fourteen-year-old girl
sitting in her own blood after a rough trick and dozens of people just
walking right by, so no, vampires, demons, even lawyers pretty much
don't impress me."
Anne does not fight demons - she takes care of real life problems that
we all see every day. As Gunn says in NFA, we're all part of something
bigger that we can probably never hope to influence... and Anne tells
him to keep loading the truck. That is Joss' message: There is a
battle out there in the real world, and we can all be part of it.
Stories about vampires are all well and good, but they're only stories
after all. What he hoped is that his stories will inspire you: Be
Anne. Anne took Buffy's name - and Joss wants us to do the same. Be a
hero any way you can, where ever you are. Because it's a fight worth
fighting.
Clairel
--AOQ, do you remember in episode 5.12 ("You're Welcome"), when Cordy
was trying to shut down what Lindsey had activated in the basement of
the W&H building, we caught a glimpse of a monster with a beak and
claws? Cordy just barely stopped it from getting loose. That was a
glimpse of what W&H had planned to unleash against Angel if he ever
got out of their control and started harming their plans.
In "Not Fade Away," after Angel defeats Hamilton in the W&H building,
the whole building starts to shake, and Angel tells Eve she'd better
get out of there quick if she wants to survive. Angel himself leaves,
to rendezvous with Spike and the others in the alley. Then a bunch of
monsters comes along, one of them being a flying dragon that looks
quite a bit like the creeature we glimpsed in episode 5.12.
It seems clear to me that W&H have unleashed their fail-safe back-up
on Angel at last. The monsters were dedicated to the task of
destroying Angel, which is why they followed him to the alley. If
they succeeded in killing him, they would immediately disappear into
some other dimension. W&H didn't intend them to be a threat to anyone
but Angel, and those who stand with Angel.
Your review of the finale as a whole was quite reasonable, but I agree
with what others on this thread have been saying about
ChantrLilyAnne. ME really did have a point to make by bringing her
back, as opposed to any other character from the past.
I noticed the best you could muster for Lorne was a tepid "I didn't
mind" that he was the one to kill Lindsey. Hmmphh. Would like to see
some real Lorne-love from you at long last, AOQ! Wasn't that brown
leather overcoat he was wearing to die for?
For some reason whenever I visualize "Not Fade Away," what I see
before my mind is Lorne in that overcoat with the gun, and Harmony in
her cobalt-blue lingerie in bed with Hamilton.
Angel biting and draining Hamilton is one of my all-time favorite
moments for the character of Angel. Boy, has he ever come a long way
from the wooden goober that I couldn't stand to have taking up
screentime back in the first three seasons of BtVS.*
Clairel
*Exception for Angelus in season 2, who was great.
Elisi
> --AOQ, do you remember in episode 5.12 ("You're Welcome"), when Cordy
> was trying to shut down what Lindsey had activated in the basement of
> the W&H building, we caught a glimpse of a monster with a beak and
> claws? Cordy just barely stopped it from getting loose. That was a
> glimpse of what W&H had planned to unleash against Angel if he ever
> got out of their control and started harming their plans.
>
> In "Not Fade Away," after Angel defeats Hamilton in the W&H building,
> the whole building starts to shake, and Angel tells Eve she'd better
> get out of there quick if she wants to survive. Angel himself leaves,
> to rendezvous with Spike and the others in the alley. Then a bunch of
> monsters comes along, one of them being a flying dragon that looks
> quite a bit like the creeature we glimpsed in episode 5.12.
Oh no! The dragon is the one that escaped from the portal in 'The
Gift'! At least that's *my* take! :)
(I always thought the creature in the big box had long thin limbs,
like a giant spider or something... must check it out again!)
Exp315
> ANGEL
> Season Five, Episode 22: "Not Fade Away"
>
> Angel to sign away his Shanshu. And thus we wipe out a big constant
> of the show with a binding contract.
Actually it could have been a ruse on the part of the Black Thorn.
Angel only has their word for it that it is the original Shanshu
Prophecy, or that his simple signature on the parchment could undo his
part in it. He may have correctly judged that it was a test. It says
something that he was prepared to take the gamble, but he may still
have hope.
> For obvious reasons, this will be my final full-length Buffyverse
> review as the Arbitrar Of Quality. It's been a pleasure discovering
> these two shows and being a part of this. Despite the toll it's taken
> on my time and the things I've had to put aside, this past year (plus)
> has been incredibly rewarding. As always, my deep appreciation to
> everyone who's read and contributed.
Our deep appreciation to you, AoQ, for helping us relive our favorite
TV series.
Are you still thinking of doing other reviews in the future, like
Firefly?
(Harmony) Watcher
"Clairel" <reld...@usa.net> wrote in message
news:1173367530....@s48g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 8, 12:47 am, "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> > ANGEL
> > Season Five, Episode 22: "Not Fade Away"
> > (or "Bang.")
> > Writers: Jeffery Bell and Joss Whedon
> > Director: Jeffrey Bell
> >
> >
> > The very last scene is a strong idea, but it's just slightly too
> > abrupt for my taste. Where did all the monsters come from, and are
> > they going to swarm across the world and kill everyone after they get
> > past our heroes? (Or are they specifically targeted at our guys?) If
> > the Senior Partners have always had the power to unleash something
> > like this, why not do so before?
>
> --AOQ, do you remember in episode 5.12 ("You're Welcome"), when Cordy
> was trying to shut down what Lindsey had activated in the basement of
> the W&H building, we caught a glimpse of a monster with a beak and
> claws? Cordy just barely stopped it from getting loose. That was a
> glimpse of what W&H had planned to unleash against Angel if he ever
> got out of their control and started harming their plans.
>
> In "Not Fade Away," after Angel defeats Hamilton in the W&H building,
> the whole building starts to shake, and Angel tells Eve she'd better
> get out of there quick if she wants to survive. Angel himself leaves,
> to rendezvous with Spike and the others in the alley. Then a bunch of
> monsters comes along, one of them being a flying dragon that looks
> quite a bit like the creeature we glimpsed in episode 5.12.
>
> It seems clear to me that W&H have unleashed their fail-safe back-up
> on Angel at last. The monsters were dedicated to the task of
> destroying Angel, which is why they followed him to the alley. If
> they succeeded in killing him, they would immediately disappear into
> some other dimension. W&H didn't intend them to be a threat to anyone
> but Angel, and those who stand with Angel.
>
You think Gunn was exaggerating by a factor of 1000?
quote (http://bdb.vrya.net/bdb/clip.php?clip=6114)
...
GUNN: OK. You take the 30,000 on the left...
ILLYRIA: You're fading. You'll last 10 minutes at best.
GUNN: (stands) Then let's make 'em memorable.
SPIKE: In terms of a plan?
ANGEL: We fight.
SPIKE: Bit more specific.
ANGEL: Well, personally, I kind of want to slay the dragon. Let's go to
work.
unquote
If it were only 30 monsters or so, Spike would not have asked for a plan.
Even if it were only 300 or so monsters, LA would face massive casualty if
only one or two of them got loose (unless the Initiative or the army got
involved). You are assuming that these monsters were perfectly obedient
creatures and would only attack Team Angel and nothing else.
Maximum mayhem dictates that the first collateral damage would be innocent
civilians, followed by first-response police sent to investigate the strange
phenomenon.
--
==Harmony Watcher
burt...@hotmail.com
But if those demons are all under W&H's command, why did they need
Angel to kick-start anything? W&H could have let them loose on the
world any time they wanted.
For me, the question of where the demons came from is the only flaw in
an otherwise very good episode. NFA was certainly light-years better
than the Buffy finale.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
"\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
> You think Gunn was exaggerating by a factor of 1000?
>
> quote (http://bdb.vrya.net/bdb/clip.php?clip=6114)
> ...
> GUNN: OK. You take the 30,000 on the left...
ever watch spy kids
Stephen Tempest
>ANGEL
>Season Five, Episode 22: "Not Fade Away"
>(or "Bang.")
After posting a comment to your review of 'Welcome to the Hellmouth'
how could I not also respond to 'Not Fade Away'?
>Our villains talk some sense but misread the situation when they want
>Angel to sign away his Shanshu. And thus we wipe out a big constant
>of the show with a binding contract. I think it works. The show
>treats it as almost an afterthought, as it is to Angel, and to the
>viewer - somewhere along the line, the reward became unimportant.
Good thought, although like a few others, I'm dubious about whether it
is really possible to "sign away a prophecy" like this. I bet Buffy
would have jumped at the chance in B1.12, for example... But in this
case, it's the symbolic importance. To me, it was proof that Angel was
willing to sacrifice _everything_ to strike this blow against evil.
>We went through the whole
>year without seeing any of the main BTVS cast again, but the finale
>makes time for Chantrlilyanne?
I *loved* seeing her again. It really closed the circle; and I think a
refernce to a BtVS character would have been out of place. Like
Wesley, Anne may have started out on Buffy, but came into her own on
Angel.
>Spending his last night on earth in a bar seems like a
>disappointment at first, but that turns out to be the setup for him
>finally finding an audience for his poetry, which is both hilarious
>and poignant. "That was for Cecily." A toast to old loves before the
>end.
Another perfect moment. (Yes, I'm a continuity pornaholic. Sue me.)
>and then he plays Lindsey completely. As for Lorne, he's really not
>cut out for this lifestyle, but he came through with what he promised
>to do before running away with the last shreds of his self-image.
You think? He seemed completely broken to me. He may get out of NFA
physically alive, but I think in spirit he was as dead as the others
by the end.
> Wes does
>admittedly seem slow to use his weapons against Vail, but I say he's
>just trying to best deliver the killing blow.
It's been commented before that Wesley chose to use magic (not his
main strength) against a master magician; surely using a gun would
have been more in character? After all, Illyria would later show that
Vail wasn't immune to physical weapons...unless being a God inflamed
by righteous fury allowed her to break through his mystical defences
in a way Wesley couldn't have.
>"They'll destroy you." "As long as you're OK, they can't."
An important line to remember. If _Buffy_ was a story about growing
up, _Angel_ was about living life as an adult. Happy endings and
immortality make pretty fairy tales, but real life doesn't work like
that. Everybody dies in the end, but we can live on through our
children and be remembered for our deeds.
>I didn't catch on to which word
>Jayne shouldn't have said until the part where Angel does the blood-
>drinking vampire thing. Of course. Metaphor for Season Five, anyone?
It's much more than that. Ever since 1898, Angel has tried to separate
himself into two distinct people - himself, and the evil vampire
Angelus. To me it's hugely important that he wins his final, crucial
fight only because he accepts his vampire nature, and uses it quite
deliberately and consciously to defeat Hamilton.
Incidentally, an interesting parallel can be drawn between Hamilton
and Caleb - both of them presumably empowered by their eveil but
non-corporeal masters to be their agents on Earth. If Hamilton was
strong enough to defeat a God in hand-to-hand combat, one wonders
exactly what else he was capable of... (and, of course, who would win
in a fight, him or Caleb...).
>The very last scene is a strong idea, but it's just slightly too
>abrupt for my taste. Where did all the monsters come from, and are
>they going to swarm across the world and kill everyone after they get
>past our heroes? (Or are they specifically targeted at our guys?)
*Shrug*. From whatever hell dimension(s) the Senior Partners can
access on such short notice; probably not by design, but a few might
rampage out of control (at least until they run into a few thousand
Slayers); and yes of course they are - this is the full-on Hell Angel
warned about.
>the Senior Partners have always had the power to unleash something
>like this, why not do so before?
Why ever should they? They want to inflict lifetimes full of misery
and despair and inventive cruelty on humanity for the pleasure of the
Lower Beings, not wreak physical havoc in downtown LA.
They're out for revenge, yes, but that army is also a sign of despair.
Without the Black Thorn to provide the intelligence and control for
their efforts on Earth, they're reduced to a basic CRUSH-KILL-DESTROY
strategy. It's really sad.
On which note, I'm going to be completely self-indulgent and, much
like Spike this episode, end with a 100-word ficlet I wrote a while
back, entitled 'Late'.
_____
Duck the blow. Hard and fast, up through the ribcage. Dust. A
six-armed ... thing comes at them, but she's already swinging the
Scythe like it's part of her, and now it's a four-armed thing with no
head.
"Behind you, B!"
She’s already spinning around, but another demon slams her down and
she can't breathe for the pain but then its head just _explodes_, and
Kennedy's stood there with a crossbow and a smug grin; and now the
demons are running from them, they're breaking through, they've made
it...
...And there’s that blue-haired woman from her dream, still standing.
But where’s...?
_____
Thanks for the reviews. :)
Stephen
Dwayne Johnson
too abrupt for my taste. Where did all the monsters come from, and are
they going to swarm across the world and kill everyone after they get
past our heroes? (Or are they specifically targeted at our guys?) If the
Senior Partners have always had the power to unleash something like
this, why not do so before? And so on, that nitpicky stuff gets in the
way a
the Senior Partners always had a way to end the world.. they didn't WANT
to end the world. think of what spike said on buffy about humans being
"happy meals with legs" (or something?) and as far as the numbers.. they
just open one or more portals to any hell world and BAM! demon city. and
as they went right for Angel and his team i think it was safe to say
they had been the only real target. (remember the fact that we now have
an untold amount of slayers and one powerful witch! to deal with any
demon army)
Elisi
Well it neededn't even be W&H's minions... Sebassis had 40000 demons
at his command. Guess they'd be pretty pissed off that their old
venerated leader got bumped off. And all season long our gang have
tried to calm various demon factions (including those Lindsey kills),
trying to stop them fighting (which would entail heavy 'collateral
damage'). Angel's just taken out the top tier of the ruling elite, and
all their minions will be clamouring for blood... and who's going to
stop them? These things have a tendency to escalate.
Michael Ikeda
news:1173336470.5...@8g2000cwh.googlegroups.com:
> ANGEL
> Season Five, Episode 22: "Not Fade Away"
> (or "Bang.")
> Writers: Jeffery Bell and Joss Whedon
> Director: Jeffrey Bell
>
>
> "The circle does not abide secrets." "Which is interesting for
> a secret society." I laughed. Also at "I will shred my
> adversaries. Pull their eyes out just enough to turn them
> towards their mewing, mutilated faces." "You're a very
> inspirational person. Have I mentioned that?" And at Lindsey's
> "it's nice to know you're one of the few things in my life
> [Angel] didn't get his mitts on, you know?" And one last gay
> joke for the road: ANGEL: I want you, Lindsey.
> (Mrs. Quality, during the ensuing pause: In bed.)
> ANGEL: I'm thinking about rephrasing that.
> LINDSEY: Yeah, I think I'd be more comfortable if you did.
>
Just have to mention:
ANGEL: This may come out a little pretentious, but... one of you will
betray me. (Spike raises his hand) Wes.
SPIKE: Oh. (puts his hand down) Can I deny you 3 times?
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Sam
> We went through the whole
> year without seeing any of the main BTVS cast again, but the finale
> makes time for Chantrlilyanne? I love you, show, but sometimes you
> piss me off.
But they use her character in a way which arguably reinforces the
themes of the episode, and the series as a whole, more than any of the
BTVS cast would. The little exchange about whether Anne would continue
working with the shelter even if she knew, as a matter of absolute
certainty, that it was completely futile, not only works well to tie
into Gunn's origins, but to sum up the whole point of the show.
> As for Lorne, he's really not
> cut out for this lifestyle, but he came through with what he promised
> to do before running away with the last shreds of his self-image.
> Good for him. And I don't even mind him being the only one of the
> core group (not counting Harmony) who definitely survives NFA.
>
I did like the last thing he says to Lindsey, too. When this episode
first aired, a lot of people were horrified at the idea that Angel
would have Lorne shoot a guy right when he's in the middle of
seemingly repenting and trying to do good. And I really think that, at
the moment he said it, Lindsey wasn't full of shit. He really did mean
to become one of the good guys. Just like he has several times in the
past, before he winds up being weak and selfish and switching back to
his default bastardry.
Still, it was very jarring. But if you think about it, Lorne *has*
seen Lindsey sing. He knows Lindsey's destiny; he knows him better
than he knows himself, and knows he's rotten at heart.
> The very last scene is a strong idea, but it's just slightly too
> abrupt for my taste. Where did all the monsters come from,
Archduke Sebassis alone was said to command like 40,000 demons,
right?
and are
> they going to swarm across the world and kill everyone after they get
> past our heroes? (Or are they specifically targeted at our guys?)
I got the impression it was specifically targetted. We've been told
almost from day one that Wolfram and Hart could utterly annihilate
Angel if they wanted to.
Well, congratulations, Angel. You actually managed to hurt them enough
that now they're gonna put their money where their mouth is.
If
> the Senior Partners have always had the power to unleash something
> like this, why not do so before?
Because the Senior Partners don't want to destroy the world. Their
apocalypse isn't about killing everyone, it's about making everyone
evil.
--Sam
Mel
Bell talks about Angel signing away the Shanshu in the commentary, but
despite that there are 2 things that make me think maybe he really
didn't. First, what Angel signed didn't really look like his name but
rather a poor imitation to fool the Black Thorn. Remember back in
"Origin," we see his signature on the contract to take over W&H. It's
very neat and clearly reads "Angel." In this episode, he tells Connor,
"I have very nice handwriting." ("You GIRL!"). Well, the writing on the
prophecy wasn't very nice looking. Now, maybe it doesn't matter what he
actually wrote due to the blood thing, but I'm not convinced :-)
>
> The "take one day to do whatever you want" thing is a little
> contrived, but I have no problem with that. We went through the whole
> year without seeing any of the main BTVS cast again, but the finale
> makes time for Chantrlilyanne? I love you, show, but sometimes you
> piss me off. I like the play of the scenes between Angel and Lindsey,
> old enemies who respect each other to a degree and know about a few
> personal things. Lindsey and Eve are able to take a little comfort in
> each other the way none of the heroes can, but it's hard to begrudge
> them that.
>
> "The circle does not abide secrets." "Which is interesting for a
> secret society." I laughed. Also at "I will shred my adversaries.
> Pull their eyes out just enough to turn them towards their mewing,
> mutilated faces." "You're a very inspirational person. Have I
> mentioned that?" And at Lindsey's "it's nice to know you're one of
> the few things in my life [Angel] didn't get his mitts on, you know?"
LOL. Yeah, if Lindsey only knew. I bet Even wasn't telling either!
> And one last gay joke for the road:
> ANGEL: I want you, Lindsey.
> (Mrs. Quality, during the ensuing pause: In bed.)
> ANGEL: I'm thinking about rephrasing that.
> LINDSEY: Yeah, I think I'd be more comfortable if you did.
>
>
> And now, it's time to say goodbye...
>
> SPIKE: It's odd to me how little he shaped the season. What I mean
> is, I was prepared to accept him as Angel's equal in terms of
> importance to the story, the way he was close to Buffy's on her show.
> The series proceeded to give us Spike angling for Angel's role and on
> a meta level threatening to take over ATS. But that story ended up
> being all about Dead Boy #1, and by the time of "Not Fade Away," I
> agree with those who say that Spike is very clearly one of the
> sidekicks. He doesn't even get to do any extended on-screen fighting
> in his last appearance; I wonder if there were any backstage factors
> involved. Spending his last night on earth in a bar seems like a
> disappointment at first, but that turns out to be the setup for him
> finally finding an audience for his poetry, which is both hilarious
> and poignant. "That was for Cecily." A toast to old loves before the
> end.
OFV I thought he was bracing for a barroom brawl but was pleasantly
surprised to hear the poetry recital instead. A nice closed circle for
Spike, from the day he becomes a vampire to the day he possibly ceases
to be anything but a memory.
Poor Lorne. He never really fit in with Angel's world. He just wanted to
provide a sanctuary for folks to be themselves in. Maybe he'll start a
new club somewhere else. We saw what might be a future Lorne in "Spin
the Bottle," looking back on his wacky adventures in apocalypse-ville.
Maybe that's where he's headed now.
>
> WESLEY (and Eve): Wow. We've seen him apparently empty and lifeless
> before - the end of Season Three comes to mind. I don't know if it's
> ever been quite like this. There's a detachment to it that in some
> ways makes it seem worse. It's one of the most matter-of-fact
> deliveries you'll see (outside Angel in TSILA) on a line like "there
> is nothing that I want." I was a little worried that he'd take
> Illyria up on her offer, but he sees that it wouldn't help. It might
> be worth contrasting him with Eve, who apparently stays behind to die
> after learning what Angel's done to Lindsey. She's quietly crushed
> and can't see anything worth wanting either, but Wesley's not like her
> - he wants to live. I do believe his line suggesting that he was
> holding out hope on getting through the day alive. So hey, guess
> who's the only one of the core group who 100%, definitely,
> unambiguously ends up dead? Joss Whedon is not a nice man. Wes does
> admittedly seem slow to use his weapons against Vail, but I say he's
> just trying to best deliver the killing blow. Just like at the end of
> S3, no matter how dead inside he is, he never quits. Back then he
> saved our hero. This time it's his persistence in helping an evil god-
> king in need that's the ultimate instrument by which his fight gets
> won.
My only nitpick about Wesley is he why didn't he just pull out Vail's
tube and let him suffocate? It worked well enough for Angel. But it's
only a nitpick, and easily forgiven after seeing the coolness of
Illyria-Fred morphing back to her blue self and exploding Vail's head :-)
Faith already saved the day in AtS last season. It was Connor's turn
this time.
>
> The fight between Angel and Hamilton is good stuff too. Angel's the
> one in control with the Sebassis thing, even when the fight itself is
> a problem. Not that this stops the show from finding the humor in it,
> because otherwise it wouldn't be ME ("did that hurt at all?" "Well, I
> thought the fight would be going a little better.") I knew there was
> a badass one-liner coming up, but I didn't catch on to which word
> Jayne shouldn't have said until the part where Angel does the blood-
> drinking vampire thing. Of course. Metaphor for Season Five, anyone?
>
> The very last scene is a strong idea, but it's just slightly too
> abrupt for my taste. Where did all the monsters come from, and are
> they going to swarm across the world and kill everyone after they get
> past our heroes? (Or are they specifically targeted at our guys?) If
> the Senior Partners have always had the power to unleash something
> like this, why not do so before? And so on, that nitpicky stuff gets
> in the way a little. Thematically, of course, closing by facing a
> hopeless battle with our heads up encapsulates the series, and of
> course it had to happen in that alley. One of the last lines of the
> show - "well, personally, I kind of want to slay the dragon" - is
> about as purely Angel as one can get, and very much the character he's
> become over the course of his show rather than the one he started as.
> Strong way to end, although I hear it was controversial.
Very abrupt. I remember the screen going dark and me saying, "Is that
the end???? NOOOOOOO......" Now, however, I do view it as a very
appropriate ending for the series, as was "Chosen" for BtVS.
If only there'd been a Season 6.....sigh.
>
> I wanted a special Mutant Enemy monster. None at all outside of BTVS.
>
> For obvious reasons, this will be my final full-length Buffyverse
> review as the Arbitrar Of Quality. It's been a pleasure discovering
> these two shows and being a part of this. Despite the toll it's taken
> on my time and the things I've had to put aside, this past year (plus)
> has been incredibly rewarding. As always, my deep appreciation to
> everyone who's read and contributed.
Thanks for taking the time to write all these reviews. The rest of us
had the easy part.
Mel
djsosonut
> Mel wrote:
>
> My only nitpick about Wesley is he why didn't he just pull out Vail's
> tube and let him suffocate? It worked well enough for Angel. But it's
> only a nitpick, and easily forgiven after seeing the coolness of
> Illyria-Fred morphing back to her blue self and exploding Vail's head :-)
>
illusion (more slight of hand than actual magic), one that he crafted
over years to get his enemies to underestimate him and focus on the
wrong thing when trying to hurt him. Wes fell for the facade, but he
did piss Vail off enough to get him to drop the act for the first time
in who knows how long, something that Angel wasn't able to do. And the
fact that Vail would die because he fell for the same kind of trap he
set, is just too poetic for words.
(Harmony) Watcher
"Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1173371182.5...@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
--
==Harmony Watcher==
Paul Hyett
>
>You think Gunn was exaggerating by a factor of 1000?
>
>quote (http://bdb.vrya.net/bdb/clip.php?clip=6114)
>...
>GUNN: OK. You take the 30,000 on the left...
>ILLYRIA: You're fading. You'll last 10 minutes at best.
>GUNN: (stands) Then let's make 'em memorable.
>SPIKE: In terms of a plan?
>ANGEL: We fight.
>SPIKE: Bit more specific.
>ANGEL: Well, personally, I kind of want to slay the dragon. Let's go to
>work.
>unquote
>
>If it were only 30 monsters or so, Spike would not have asked for a plan.
>Even if it were only 300 or so monsters, LA would face massive casualty if
>only one or two of them got loose (unless the Initiative or the army got
>involved). You are assuming that these monsters were perfectly obedient
>creatures and would only attack Team Angel and nothing else.
>
>Maximum mayhem dictates that the first collateral damage would be innocent
>civilians, followed by first-response police sent to investigate the strange
>phenomenon.
Not to mention the reconstituted Watchers Council* sending over dozens
or hundreds of the recently-activated Slayers.
* I imagine Giles would head that new council, but is there anything to
suggest that in the show?
--
Paul 'Charts Fan' Hyett
Don Sample
Paul Hyett <p...@nojunkmailplease.co.uk> wrote:
> Not to mention the reconstituted Watchers Council* sending over dozens
> or hundreds of the recently-activated Slayers.
>
> * I imagine Giles would head that new council, but is there anything to
> suggest that in the show?
When Andrew shows up in "Damage" he says that he's working for Giles.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
from dana and hole in the world
it sounds like slayers are aligned with giles willow
and rest of the sunnydale crowd
if watchers want to be relevant theyre going to be listening to giles
regardless of who sits in what chair
Stephen Tempest
>> * I imagine Giles would head that new council, but is there anything to
>> suggest that in the show?
>
>When Andrew shows up in "Damage" he says that he's working for Giles.
But that his orders ultimately come from Buffy. I'm wondering if it's
now the Slayers' Council, not the Watchers' Council?
We'll probably find out next week. :)
Stephen
(Harmony) Watcher
"Stephen Tempest" <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:17q0v21cgb5m340mf...@4ax.com...
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> writes:
>
> >ANGEL
> >Season Five, Episode 22: "Not Fade Away"
> >(or "Bang.")
>
> After posting a comment to your review of 'Welcome to the Hellmouth'
> how could I not also respond to 'Not Fade Away'?
>
> >Our villains talk some sense but misread the situation when they want
> >Angel to sign away his Shanshu. And thus we wipe out a big constant
> >of the show with a binding contract. I think it works. The show
> >treats it as almost an afterthought, as it is to Angel, and to the
> >viewer - somewhere along the line, the reward became unimportant.
>
> Good thought, although like a few others, I'm dubious about whether it
> is really possible to "sign away a prophecy" like this.
>
scam.
> I bet Buffy
> would have jumped at the chance in B1.12, for example... But in this
> case, it's the symbolic importance. To me, it was proof that Angel was
> willing to sacrifice _everything_ to strike this blow against evil.
>
Yes, but "how would one ever know whether or not some bad guys had dominion
over prophecies" would be the question.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
Elisi
> "Stephen Tempest" <step...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
Having pondered this often, it's worth noting that he doesn't sign
away his role in the apocalypse - just the reward. 'The epilogue' as
Sirk calls it.
And I still think it's Connor.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> away his role in the apocalypse - just the reward. 'The epilogue' as
> Sirk calls it.
>
> And I still think it's Connor.
he can become human again anyway
all he has to do is track down
another one of those demons with crystal in its face
Arbitrar Of Quality
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1173336470.5...@8g2000cwh.googlegroups.com...
> > Our villains talk some sense but misread the situation when they want
> > Angel to sign away his Shanshu. And thus we wipe out a big constant
> > of the show with a binding contract. I think it works.
>
> The first of a couple of things that I have logical quibbles with, but which
> work emotionally. Suddenly a prophecy, a prediction made long ago by someone
> with the gift of foreknowledge is a property right that the person referred
> to in the prophecy can sign away? How come Sahjhan never thought of that?
Sahjhan was looking int he wrong places, I guess. Or it could've been
just a test from the Black Thorn. In any case, the Shanshu's not the
point anymore, which is the reason the scene exists.
> > We went through the whole
> > year without seeing any of the main BTVS cast again, but the finale
> > makes time for Chantrlilyanne?
>
> I loved Anne's appearance. She is the refutations to those who think the
> ending reeks of hopelessness. All the while the Buffy and Angel stories have
> been centre-stage, there has obviously been a very significant Anne story
> from going on in the background. From the flake of Lie to Me to the strong
> confident woman of NFA, dedicated to making a difference in the world. The
> SPs have had their hands full fighting Angel for 5 years, but if the get
> past him here and move on to confront Anne and her like, they don't stand a
> chance.
I wasn't trying to say that I didn't like seeing her, as some seem to
have thought, just that I wanted the more major crossover characters
too. I appreciated her scene a good deal, although perhaps hadn't
fully absorbed it: the premise elsewhere in the thread that she's a
stand-in for the viewer is a cool idea that's worth some more milling
over.
>
> > HARMONY (and her boss): The only character other than Angel himself
> > to appear in both the first and last Buffyverse episodes.
>
> I think only if you are counting WTTH and The Harvest as one episode, as
> they were originally broadcast (or are counting the unaired pilot).
[shrug] I thought she was in WTTH too? Whatever.
> > in the way a little. Thematically, of course, closing by facing a
> > hopeless battle with our heads up encapsulates the series, and of
> > course it had to happen in that alley.
>
> See, I don't think its hopeless. Gunn's statement about the 30,000 on the
> left is clearly jocular exaggeration. There isn't room for more than a
> couple of hundred to deploy within his field of view from that alley
> (probably less, given that its dark and he's dying) even if there are more
> about elsewhere. All we actually see is 1 dragon, 1 definite giant, 3 larger
> than normal humanoids, and 10-12 shorter than normal, severely hampered in
> their movements by their robes. It's left to the imagination of the viewer
> how many other monsters there may be out of view. Some prefer to imagine a
> horde so vast that survival is impossible. But Angel earlier estimated their
> chances of survival at 10:1 against. And he's a pretty pessimistic guy. And
> was probably estimating at the pessimistic end of the range to avoid giving
> his team false hope. So even though their chances may be less than even, I
> think their position is far from hopeless.
How about very little hope? It's strongly suggested that whoever's
sending the monsters isn't about to run out anytime soon. In a
strange way, as I'm sure has been pointed out, the show's premise and
themes ensure that a minor question like whether or not our heroes
live isn't so important to this story.
> It has been a great trip. A very enjoyable way of reliving these shows. And
> even when your ratings have been off the wall (BBB Bad, Passion Decent, Ted
> & DMP Excellent to name but four) your reviews have always been
> entertaining.
For the record, I rated "Passion" Good, not Decent. Probably
should've been an Excellent, but such are first-time impressions. I
stand 100% behind the other three, though.
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
> On Mar 8, 6:47 am, "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> I'm going to declare his poem 'magnificent', because truly it is:
>
> "My soul is wrapped in harsh repose,
> midnight descends in raven-colored clothes,
> but soft...behold!
> A sunlight beam
> cutting a swath of glimmering gleam.
> My heart expands,
> 'tis grown a bulge in it,
> inspired by your beauty...
> effulgent."
>
> To quote the_royal_anna:
>
> "A poem for Cecily, that is a poem about Drusilla; about his turning;
> about Buffy; about a moment on the hellmouth when a vampire with a
> soul gave everything he had to save the world; about everything that
> makes him who he is."
>
> I love the fact that he finally finished it.
Hmm. I thought of "Chosen" with the sunshine stuff too, but then when
he got to the ending I assumed that it was just taken from FFL. Is
this the first time we've heard the whole thing, then? Anyone want ot
remind me how much he muttered out loud the first time and whether
we've heard it since then?
> Love how they make them all come full cirlce - Gunn is back to
> fighting vampires. Apparently J. A. R. always thought it'd be a nice
> ending for the character if he was vamped and then staked himself...
I'd have to agree with him. Didn't turn out that way, but that
might've been a good story.
> Eve might be the most tragic character on the entire show.
Really? I like her story and all, but it's nowhere near the depth or
the scope of emotion and tragedy we see elsewhere in the series.
> > and are
> > they going to swarm across the world and kill everyone after they get
> > past our heroes?
>
> Quite possibly. It's that thing beginning with 'A' and ending in
> 'pocalypse'... And this is where the show is so *impossibly* great. We
> have known since S1 that W&H are keeping Angel around because he's a
> key player in the apocalypse, only no one knows what side he'll be on.
> Now - he's apparently unleashed it in full. Is kick-starting The
> Apocalypse really a good thing? I'd say the prophecy was fullfilled -
> to the letter.
It's ambiguous, as you'll see from the fact that people are loudly
throwing around various answers as to what was going on there. I'm
with Burt that here the ambiguity is a minor weakness of a great
finale.
> Thank *you*! It's been a lot of fun (and you got me to rewatch S7 and
> AtS S5 as well as various eps along the way, which was wonderful - and
> time consuming). Now you should get a livejournal!
Already have one, I just haven't used it in years. I read yours (and
Stephen's and Melissa's) pretty regularly, though (hadda see what
people were saying about me...), and got quite skilled at the spoiler-
dodging (too bad that didn't translate to the rest of the
Internets...).
-AOQ
Arbitrar Of Quality
wrote:
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> writes:
> After posting a comment to your review of 'Welcome to the Hellmouth'
> how could I not also respond to 'Not Fade Away'?
You're a fan of full-circle stuff, like you said.
> >"They'll destroy you." "As long as you're OK, they can't."
>
> An important line to remember. If _Buffy_ was a story about growing
> up, _Angel_ was about living life as an adult. Happy endings and
> immortality make pretty fairy tales, but real life doesn't work like
> that. Everybody dies in the end, but we can live on through our
> children and be remembered for our deeds.
Nicely put.
> >I didn't catch on to which word
> >Jayne shouldn't have said until the part where Angel does the blood-
> >drinking vampire thing. Of course. Metaphor for Season Five, anyone?
>
> It's much more than that. Ever since 1898, Angel has tried to separate
> himself into two distinct people - himself, and the evil vampire
> Angelus. To me it's hugely important that he wins his final, crucial
> fight only because he accepts his vampire nature, and uses it quite
> deliberately and consciously to defeat Hamilton.
To a degree, yes, but I don't think it's as strong a message as it
could have been because he's been comfortable with being a vampire for
a long time. He doesn't associate his supernatural side per se with
"Angelus" all that much.
My main comment about your bit of fiction is that it seems like some
people are reluctant to do too much to touch the ending without being
Joss or someone like him.
-AOQ
Elisi
> Hmm. I thought of "Chosen" with the sunshine stuff too, but then when
> he got to the ending I assumed that it was just taken from FFL. Is
> this the first time we've heard the whole thing, then? Anyone want ot
> remind me how much he muttered out loud the first time and whether
> we've heard it since then?
This is all we hear in FFL:
William: Careful. The inks are still wet. Please, it's not finished.
Aristocrat #3: Don't be shy. "My heart expands/'tis grown a bulge in
it/inspired by your beauty, effulgent." Effulgent?
> > Eve might be the most tragic character on the entire show.
>
> Really? I like her story and all, but it's nowhere near the depth or
> the scope of emotion and tragedy we see elsewhere in the series.
Oh not in that sense. What I mean is that she's sort of the anti-Anne.
In the end she has no one and nothing - and probably ends up dead
because she can see no reason to live. Even Wesley is not that low.
Although Lorne would be my other candidate. Maybe they're tied.
> > Thank *you*! It's been a lot of fun (and you got me to rewatch S7 and
> > AtS S5 as well as various eps along the way, which was wonderful - and
> > time consuming). Now you should get a livejournal!
>
> Already have one, I just haven't used it in years. I read yours (and
> Stephen's and Melissa's) pretty regularly, though (hadda see what
> people were saying about me...), and got quite skilled at the spoiler-
> dodging (too bad that didn't translate to the rest of the
> Internets...).
Well you should definitely blow off the cobwebs then! :)
Arbitrar Of Quality
> I noticed the best you could muster for Lorne was a tepid "I didn't
> mind" that he was the one to kill Lindsey. Hmmphh. Would like to see
> some real Lorne-love from you at long last, AOQ!
I appreciate his role in NFA. If you re-read, I said a few nice
things about him besides the "not minding" (and that was in regard to
him being the only survivor). It's the closest you'll get to Lorne-
love from me.
-AOQ
Paul Hyett
>In article <bo8+a+N4...@blueyonder.co.uk>,
> Paul Hyett <p...@nojunkmailplease.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Not to mention the reconstituted Watchers Council* sending over dozens
>> or hundreds of the recently-activated Slayers.
>>
>> * I imagine Giles would head that new council, but is there anything to
>> suggest that in the show?
>
>When Andrew shows up in "Damage" he says that he's working for Giles.
Thanks - now I know which episode to check.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
It took me a minute to figure out why the top of the review looks
different this time: no spoiler message. This really is the end....
In alt.tv.angel Arbitrar Of Quality <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> ANGEL
> Season Five, Episode 22: "Not Fade Away"
> (or "Bang.")
> Director: Jeffrey Bell
I think the most important thing about Not Fade Away is that it focuses
thematically on the *act* of fighting for good, and the *choice* to carry
on that fight, rather than on victory or defeat. The results of the fight
aren't unimportant, but they aren't what NFA is really concerned with.
Keeping this in mind allows the viewer, or at least *this* viewer, to look
past flaws in Angel's plan or doubts about its utility or unhappy
suspicions about whether he really just had a death wish, and concentrate
on what's really important.
> Our villains talk some sense but misread the situation when they want
> Angel to sign away his Shanshu. And thus we wipe out a big constant
> of the show with a binding contract. I think it works. The show
> treats it as almost an afterthought, as it is to Angel, and to the
> viewer - somewhere along the line, the reward became unimportant.
Exactly. That's NFA's main point: for Angel the fight itself is the
important thing, not the reward. Or, fighting the good fight *is* the
real reward. He does it because it's the right thing to do, not because
there's anything in it for him. As a secondary point, having the hero win
by doing something the villains smugly believe he would never *dare* to do
is always satisfying. And finally, after the morally compromised tactics
Angel has used to get here, the Shanshu feels like the right thing for
Angel to sacrifice. Most importantly, murdering Drogyn was a real crime,
even if it was for a good end. (Though NFA hints that Angel hadn't
*planned* to kill him.) Signing away his chance at Shanshu doesn't change
that in any way, but it does serve as a measure of atonement.
> anyway. No one's giving up. Like I've been arguing, it's about
> sending a message to the cruel forces of the Universe that's worth it
> if you have a certain frame of mind, and then being ready to take
> whatever tradeoff comes along with it.
Angel does mean to send a message to the Senior Partners, and it is not
impossible that it'll even do some practical good. But I view it in more
personal terms. It's a matter of how one chooses to live one's life.
Heroes are those who dedicate themselves to fighting evil and helping the
helpless. Fighting evil is simply the right thing to do, regardless of
whether or not you can defeat it. Hence Gunn's conversation with Anne:
GUNN: What if I told you it doesn't help? What would you do if you found
out that none of it matters? That it's all controlled by forces more
powerful and uncaring than we can conceive, and they will never let it get
better down here. What would you do?
ANNE: I'd get this truck packed before the new stuff gets here. Wanna give
me a hand?
GUNN: I do.
There are also echoes of Angel's famous quote, "if nothing we do matters,
then all that matters is what we do." This situation is different from
what he was describing in Epiphany, where the emphasis was on small but
real acts of kindness rather than large but possibly meaningless
offensives against evil. But the underlying theme is the same: in the long
term trying to elminate evil is futile, but that is no argument against
fighting evil. In fact it makes fighting evil an important goal in
itself, rather than just a means to an end.
> The "take one day to do whatever you want" thing is a little
> contrived, but I have no problem with that. We went through the whole
> year without seeing any of the main BTVS cast again, but the finale
> makes time for Chantrlilyanne? I love you, show, but sometimes you
> piss me off.
Others have already pointed out Anne's thematic appropriateness for Gunn
(and for NFA as a whole). Personally I would have loved to see more BtVS
crossovers earlier in the season, but I think it was a good decision not
to have any in the finale. They would have reminded the audience of AtS's
origins as a BtVS spinoff, when the finale should be about summing up AtS
itself. Also, on a more practical level, seeing major BtVS characters
would have just reminded us of the other show's ending, so we'd start to
wonder why Angel didn't try to hook up with any of the thousands of
Slayers, etc.
Aside from Harmony's argument with Angel, there were few outright jokes,
but plenty of amusing lines in dramatic scenes:
-"People who don't care about anything will never understand the people
who do." "Yeah, but we won't care."
-"If the next words out of your mouth are 'Kill Spike', we just might have
to kiss."
-"Looks like we're getting kicked out of the garden, Eve."
-"Mistress who?"
-"This next one is called 'The Wanton Folly of Me Mum'!"
> SPIKE: It's odd to me how little he shaped the season. What I mean
> is, I was prepared to accept him as Angel's equal in terms of
> importance to the story, the way he was close to Buffy's on her show.
> The series proceeded to give us Spike angling for Angel's role and on
> a meta level threatening to take over ATS. But that story ended up
> being all about Dead Boy #1, and by the time of "Not Fade Away," I
> agree with those who say that Spike is very clearly one of the
> sidekicks.
Which is a noble enough position. Contrary to so many fears and hopes,
Spike wound up being just one more member of the ensemble. As you say,
even most of the Spike-centric episodes, especially Destiny, did a good
job of using Spike to further *Angel's* story. (But I still tend to think
there was too much focus on Spike in the first half of the season at the
expense of developing the W&H story.)
> involved. Spending his last night on earth in a bar seems like a
> disappointment at first, but that turns out to be the setup for him
> finally finding an audience for his poetry, which is both hilarious
> and poignant. "That was for Cecily." A toast to old loves before the
> end.
One of my favorite Spike scenes ever. And what could be more appropriate
than toasting Cecily? When you think about it, if it wasn't for her,
Spike wouldn't be there in NFA....
> HARMONY (and her boss): The only character other than Angel himself
> to appear in both the first and last Buffyverse episodes. She gets a
> nice mildly touching speech early on that reminds us how far this
> whole world has come, and then she ends up betraying everyone.
The speech about being human and the betrayal both give Harmony something
to do beyond comic relief, which made me glad. Comic relief is nice, but
really, anyone can do it. I like my major characters, especially ones who
have been around for so long, to do a little more. (Same thing goes even
more so for Lorne's part in NFA.)
> GUNN: Don't really have much new to say about him related to NFA,
> although I'll mention that I really got to appreciate the character in
> Season Five, far more than in previous years.
Gunn has some of the same regret and emptiness that you point out in Wes,
though maybe not as strongly. But unlike Wes he manages to fill the empty
spaces with the mission, making himself whole again. Wes soldiers on with
the mission, but the empty place remains to the very end, and if anything
fills even part of it, it's Frillyria.
> LORNE (and Lindsey, and the mastermind): I'd actually heard, without
> knowing who said the lines or the context, of Lindsey's reaction to
> being killed by a supporting cast member, and had totally forgotten
> it, so it was exciting to finally see that. As much as I liked
> watching Kane and his character, this couldn't have happened to a
> nicer guy.
The key to Lindsey in season 5 is that he wants to be a player. Whether
that's done by killing Angel or joining him, joining the Black Thorn or
wiping it out, is secondary to him. I think Angel had him pegged
perfectly: he would be as reliable in this fight as he would be unreliable
in the future. I loved his death scene, with his insistence that Angel
should kill him, not some flunky. (Like his former partner/rival Lilah,
Lindsey is denied the dignity of being killed by his archenemy.) BTW,
just as Angel and Harmony were the only ones there for the beginning of
the Buffyverse and the end, Lindsey and Angel were the only ones there for
the beginning of AtS and the end.
As for Lorne, he gets even farther out of his comic-relief rut than
Harmony does; he hardly cracks a joke in the entire episode. I wonder if
background as a neutral in the good vs. evil fight actually made it harder
for Lorne to stand all the morally unclean steps in the fight, like
shooting Lindsey. Being less of an ardent fighter against evil, it's
harder for him to take comfort in the ends those dirty means lead to.
> after learning what Angel's done to Lindsey. She's quietly crushed
> and can't see anything worth wanting either, but Wesley's not like her
> - he wants to live. I do believe his line suggesting that he was
> holding out hope on getting through the day alive.
He's not *planning* to die, but he never says how *likely* he thinks it
is. He doesn't seem so much hopeful as determined to act as if there is
hope, and never give up.
> ILLYRIA (and more about Wesley, whose paragraph was getting too
> long): Yeah, I'd say she cared about her human. She did end up kinda
> Anya-like after all at times, but with the power to channel her
> sublimated desire to retaliate in as violent a manner as possible when
> her authority is challenged. I think Wesley's dying moments may have
> gotten me closer to crying than anything in "A Hole In The World."
A great, heartbreaking scene, and a great job from both actors. (Though I
personally am still hit harder by AHITW. Maybe it's because Fred is
fighting to be brave, while Wesley is resigned to his death. *Surely*
it's not just because Fred is an attractive woman and Wesley is not.)
Seeing "Fred"'s hand come into the frame and touch Wesley gets me every
time. Another way Illyria resembles Anya is that an attachment to one
human leads her to fighting on the side of good. Come to think of it, she
resembles Spike that way, too.
> as Fred is. Rather than delve too much into Illyria's side of things,
> I'd just like to focus on the moment when she *makes Vail's fucking
> head explode*. Those are some thoroughly awesome milliseconds there,
> with an eruption of goop worthy of _Street Trash_. So damn cool.
Worth viewing frame by frame, if you haven't already.
> CONNOR (and his dad): Of course that's where Angel would go. Not as
> wild about their earlier scene together, because it's just a rehash of
> the end of "Origin." But Connor casually showing up to save the day,
> like Angel once dreamed he'd do?
Connor tells Angel that he got his memories back. I think Angel clearly
realized at the end of Origin, and the writers really aimed Connor's
statement at any audience members who hadn't picked up on it. I like how
Connor sets limits on how far he's willing to treat Angel as his father:
"I get what you did. You know ... I'm grateful. That's as far as I want to
take it ... OK?" Making it all the more satisfying when Connor shows up
during the fight with Hamilton.
> It's an indulgence. And I enjoy it a lot because I'm going to say
> that _Angel_ is indulging its main character, giving him a few minutes
> to bask in one of his triumphs. Surely he deserves that much.
*Occasionally*, just once in a while, Joss allows his heroes a moment of
happiness.
Connor's appearance is a good example of economy in storytelling: in that
one character, we get both progress in Angel's personal life and a visit
from one of the people he was able to save.
> The very last scene is a strong idea, but it's just slightly too
> abrupt for my taste. Where did all the monsters come from, and are
> they going to swarm across the world and kill everyone after they get
> past our heroes? (Or are they specifically targeted at our guys?)
I'd say they are aimed specifically at punishing our heroes. Since their
arrival was prompted by Angel's attack on the Black Thorn, that makes the
most sense to me. (That doesn't mean they wouldn't also lay waste to LA
before returning to hell, though.) There are probably enough monsters
there to kill the remainders of Angel's team, but there's no way of
knowing if it's actually an apocalypse-sized force or not. Gunn's quip
about "the thirty thousand on the left" is just defiant humor in the face
of death, of course: trapped in a narrow alley, in the dark, during a
heavy rain, there's no way they could see how many enemies there really
are. Enough to overwhelm them, that's all they know. I really like the
abrupt ending just as Angel strikes his first blow. It perfectly suits
the episode's focus on the fight itself. And as you say, the final scene
as a whole encapsulates the series.
> AOQ rating: Excellent
Not Fade Away is definitely a stronger episode than Chosen (to which I
believe I gave a Good rating). I think the key to NFA's strength is its
greater simplicity, both thematically and plot-wise. It also helps that
NFA isn't as crowded -- both episodes had about the same number of
regulars and major guest stars, but Chosen also had that mob of Potentials
to fit in.... NFA certainly has some weak points, mostly in the logic of
Angel's plan and the convenience of the Black Thorn being a small, easily
targeted group; but these flaws are easily overlooked and don't touch the
emotional core of the episode. I give it an Excellent.
As for the season as a whole, I like it, but it's not my favorite.
(Right now season 3 still holds that title.) I think it could have been
improved if they had given the W&H plot line more of a gradual, steady
development, episodic nature be damned. They should have had the group go
into W&H with hope and trepidation, gradually found themselves getting
corrupted, and finally found themselves again by deciding to pull the
temple down. Instead, it was really only Gunn and maybe Lorne who showed
this development (and their corruption wasn't gradual); everyone else
pretty much just continued in the same worried "are we doing the right
thing?" state for most of the season. In the end season 5 turns out like
BtVS season 4, in that the parts are greater than the whole. (Though the
overall quality of this season is still better than BtVS season 4.)
My ratings:
> 1) "Conviction" - Weak
A high Decent, possibly low Good.
> 2) "Just Rewards" - Good
Borderline Decent/Good.
> 3) "Unleashed" - Good
Another borderline Decent/Good.
> 4) "Hell Bound" - Decent
Decent.
> 5) "Life Of The Party" - Weak
Decent.
> 6) "The Cautionary Tale Of Numero Cinco" - Decent
Good.
> 7) "Lineage" - Good
A high Good.
> 8) "Destiny" - Good
Good.
> 9) "Harm's Way" - Good
Good.
> 10) "Soul Purpose" - Good
Good.
> 11) "Damage" - Good
Excellent.
> 12) "You're Welcome" - Good
Good on the technical merits; Excellent emotionally.
> 13) "Why We Fight" - Weak
A high Decent.
> 14) "Smile Time" - Excellent
Excellent.
> 15) "A Hole In The World" - Decent
Excellent.
> 16) "Shells" - Good
Excellent.
> 17) "Underneath" - Good
Good.
> 18) "Origin" - Excellent
Excellent.
> 19) "Time Bomb" - Decent
Good.
> 20) "The Girl In Question" - Weak
Decent.
> 21) "Power Play" - Good
Good.
> 22) "Not Fade Away" - Excellent]
Excellent.
Thanks again for doing these reviews, AOQ! I've enjoyed them
tremendously.
--Chris
______________________________________________________________________
chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
Clairel
Okay, well, in that case what do you think about how I put the "You're
Welcome" failsafe together with the monster attack at the end of NFA?
Did that answer your questions about the finale, AOQ?
Clairel
Sam
>
> How about very little hope? It's strongly suggested that whoever's
> sending the monsters isn't about to run out anytime soon. In a
> strange way, as I'm sure has been pointed out, the show's premise and
> themes ensure that a minor question like whether or not our heroes
> live isn't so important to this story.
>
Whether or not the heroes live is an interesting (and, not
surprisingly, much debated) point. My own view is that for the story
to work to full effect, they almost have to die. Or at least Angel
does.(*) All of the themes work better if the characters are doomed
and know it. Plus, the episode is title "Not Fade Away," which always
struck me as a rather clever inversion of the old saying. And when
even your title is saying that the hero dies, that's what's gonna
happen.
On the other hand... the writers have discussed what they were
planning for season six, if they'd been allowed to make it. And this
was pretty similar to how they were planning to end season five even
if season six did happen. I forget where exactly this was written up,
but the basic idea of season six would have been that, wonder of
wonders, the heroes actually *won*, despite their own expectations.
They survive the battle, they actually managed to hit the Senior
Partners hard enough to at least temporarily break their control over
the world. Season six would have been about what our heroes do once
the smoke clears and they realize they actually freed the world from
the grip of higher and lower powers and won the apocalypse -- what
happens after that?
On the third hand, though, they did make changes because this did,
indeed, turn out to be the end of the series. Killing Wesley being the
biggest, but probably not the only one. In a hypothetical world where
there's a season six things might be different, but with this as the
ultimate ending, I think they did decide to make the final stand a bit
more, well, final. And the episode title is a big flashing sign to
that effect, I think.
--Sam
(*) Spike has to live, obviously. And be rewarded for his role in the
apocalypse by being made human again.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> That's it. And now I'll quote from a (very, very long) interview with
> David Fury (http://www.mikejozic.com/buffyweek6.html):
>
> FURY: The really cool thing about Season 6, we knew how Season 5 was
> going to end very early on and we knew what it was going to launch
> into with Season 6, which was a post-apocalyptic show [and] which I
> thought was going to be great. It was going to be Angel in The Road
> Warrior, which I thought would be awesome. In the ruined city of LA or
> out in the desert or something, it was just going to be kind of a
> really cool, different, show.
Thanks for posting that, Ellisi. (I had read this interview before but
totally forgot about that part.) After reading that quote, my first
reaction is that it puts an entirely different spin on NFA -- Angel
*caused* the Apocalypse! His heroic blow against evil turns out to be not
futile, but actually disastrous. So I wonder, under this plan, was the
apocalypse supposed to be happening anyway, and Angel's attack on the
Black Thorn didn't cause it? Or was the idea to give season 6 Angel one
more thing to atone for?
> Apparently when working out the finale David had the idea of Angel
> winning the shanshu and giving it to Spike - who would naturally be
> furious because he wanted to win it himself - and then Spike would go
> off to Rome to be with Buffy. Joss vetoed it because he wanted to keep
> Spike a vampire for possible future projects and (although I adore
> Spuffy to eternity and beyond) I am *so* glad he did. I love the idea
> of Spike and Angel fighting the good fight side by side forever.
Wow! I too am really glad Joss vetoed it. For one thing, I don't think
*either* Angel or Spike is really the right one for Buffy. (And if I had
to choose one of them, frankly I would choose Angel without hesitation.)
And if Spike got Shanshued and went to Rome, only to get the "I like you
as a friend" from Buffy, the whole thing would seem like a horrible waste.
And maybe most importantly, it wouldn't feel right for the show for Spike
(or Angel) to get that reward. Both characters are better seen striving
than getting what they strove for. Or was the idea that Spike would then
be off the show?
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
>
> On the flip side, it's stomach stabbing. Those are notoriously slow--tho
> painful--wounds. The guy survived the night with his throat slit. He might
> have survived a poke in the gut--especially if Illyria knew CPR, applied
> direct pressure to the wound, took him to a hospital, or even dialed 911.
It was a stomach wound, but caused by a long blade that went in pretty
deep. It probably punctured what I think is called the abdominal aorta,
or some other major blood vessel, causing Wesley to bleed to death too
fast to get him to a hospital.
Elisi
Well Illyria _did_ pronounced him dead. I'd be inclined to take her
word.
Elisi
> In alt.tv.angel Elisi <elis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > That's it. And now I'll quote from a (very, very long) interview with
> > David Fury (http://www.mikejozic.com/buffyweek6.html):
>
> > FURY: The really cool thing about Season 6, we knew how Season 5 was
> > going to end very early on and we knew what it was going to launch
> > into with Season 6, which was a post-apocalyptic show [and] which I
> > thought was going to be great. It was going to be Angel in The Road
> > Warrior, which I thought would be awesome. In the ruined city of LA or
> > out in the desert or something, it was just going to be kind of a
> > really cool, different, show.
>
> Thanks for posting that, Ellisi. (I had read this interview before but
> totally forgot about that part.) After reading that quote, my first
> reaction is that it puts an entirely different spin on NFA -- Angel
> *caused* the Apocalypse! His heroic blow against evil turns out to be not
> futile, but actually disastrous.
The vampire with a soul will play a great role in the apocalypse, but
no one knows on which side... not even he himself apparently! What's
been striking me recently is that taking out the Black Thorn might not
have stopped the apocalypse machine - it might have made it explode.
We know that Sebassis had 40000 demons at his command. Vail is said
to '[Be] powerful. Heads up a large demon empire, has tendrils
stretching throughout L.A.' If the other members are the same,
there'll be vast, vast number of demons with no one to lead them, and
knowing nothing of the whole 'slow, thousand year apocalypse'. Who'll
reign them in? The SP can't, they're stuck in a different dimension -
I'd say the hordes could create a *lot* of damage... a la the
ubervamps if they'd gotten out.
> So I wonder, under this plan, was the
> apocalypse supposed to be happening anyway, and Angel's attack on the
> Black Thorn didn't cause it? Or was the idea to give season 6 Angel one
> more thing to atone for?
My guess would be the second one.
> > Apparently when working out the finale David had the idea of Angel
> > winning the shanshu and giving it to Spike - who would naturally be
> > furious because he wanted to win it himself - and then Spike would go
> > off to Rome to be with Buffy. Joss vetoed it because he wanted to keep
> > Spike a vampire for possible future projects and (although I adore
> > Spuffy to eternity and beyond) I am *so* glad he did. I love the idea
> > of Spike and Angel fighting the good fight side by side forever.
>
> Wow! I too am really glad Joss vetoed it. For one thing, I don't think
> *either* Angel or Spike is really the right one for Buffy. (And if I had
> to choose one of them, frankly I would choose Angel without hesitation.)
Dear Lord no! Sorry, but they barely know each other anymore (not that
they ever knew each other very well) - and I doubt Buffy could come to
terms with who Angel had become (and possibly the other way around
too). Spike and Buffy at least have no illusions and don't do that
bottling thing. (Also Buffy and Angel are both Leaders, and neither
would be comfortable being second.)
> And if Spike got Shanshued and went to Rome, only to get the "I like you
> as a friend" from Buffy, the whole thing would seem like a horrible waste.
> And maybe most importantly, it wouldn't feel right for the show for Spike
> (or Angel) to get that reward. Both characters are better seen striving
> than getting what they strove for.
*nods*
> Or was the idea that Spike would then
> be off the show?
Oh this was definitely after they knew they were cancelled, so they
were wondering how to tie up the show. But Joss was thinking about the
Spike movie (I presume - not that it'll ever happen now of course),
and human!Spike would be no use for storytelling purposes.
(Of course that also means that Spike/Angel is the only pairing to
survive the end of the show - except for Willow/Kennedy - which makes
me very happy!)
Ken from Chicago
Like she would know modern medicine.
-- Ken from Chicago
P.S. I mean new slayers have been called when Buffy was merely clinically
"dead".
Don Sample
"Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
> "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1173475269.7...@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Well Illyria _did_ pronounced him dead. I'd be inclined to take her
> > word.
> >
>
> Like she would know modern medicine.
Modern, ancient, when you've been gutted like a pig, half your blood's
outside of your body, and your heart's stopped beating, you're dead,
unless you're already on the table in a good trauma OR.
(Harmony) Watcher
> Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> writes:
>
> >> * I imagine Giles would head that new council, but is there anything to
> >> suggest that in the show?
> >
> >When Andrew shows up in "Damage" he says that he's working for Giles.
>
> But that his orders ultimately come from Buffy. I'm wondering if it's
> now the Slayers' Council, not the Watchers' Council?
>
>
but there is no evidence that Giles was now leading the Council of Watchers
or any Council at all.
A big crucial part of the Council of Watchers might have been blown up, but
it does not follow that Giles was now one of the most senior watchers left
standing. I would surmise that there could be a lot more senior watchers who
were not there at the time of the explosion--retired, semi-retired, on
leave, on sabbatical, on missions, etc--that could have more seniority than
Giles. If there were such happy chaps still left standing, I invoke maximum
mayhem to make most of them as stodgy as Quentin, and most of them despising
Giles.
The Council of Watchers could have reconstituted with or without Giles
involvement, as long as they still had money. A stuffy organization with a
stuffy mentality would not change overnight by just an explosion. If
anything, they could easily find an excuse to blame Buffy's group for the
mishap.
My two cents worth, but in my view, having more antagonists for the heroes
generate more interesting stories.
> We'll probably find out next week. :)
>
We shall see :)
--
==Harmony Watcher==
(Harmony) Watcher
"mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mair_fheal-C83DF...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> > Having pondered this often, it's worth noting that he doesn't sign
> > away his role in the apocalypse - just the reward. 'The epilogue' as
> > Sirk calls it.
> >
> > And I still think it's Connor.
>
> he can become human again anyway
> all he has to do is track down
> another one of those demons with crystal in its face
>
--
==Harmony Watcher==
(Harmony) Watcher
"Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
news:dsample-777B7B...@news.giganews.com...
> In article <dfednfpRj7fabWzY...@comcast.com>,
> "Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1173475269.7...@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> > >
> > > Well Illyria _did_ pronounced him dead. I'd be inclined to take her
> > > word.
> > >
> >
> > Like she would know modern medicine.
>
> Modern, ancient, when you've been gutted like a pig, half your blood's
> outside of your body, and your heart's stopped beating, you're dead,
> unless you're already on the table in a good trauma OR.
>
>
ancient one still had the ability to stop time and hold Wes in suspended
animation inside a time bubble!
--
==Harmony Watcher==
Don Sample
"\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
> "Stephen Tempest" <ste...@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:c7l2v2lelevefgjrr...@4ax.com...
> > Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> writes:
> >
> > >> * I imagine Giles would head that new council, but is there
> > >> anything to suggest that in the show?
> > >
> > >When Andrew shows up in "Damage" he says that he's working for
> > >Giles.
> >
> > But that his orders ultimately come from Buffy. I'm wondering if
> > it's now the Slayers' Council, not the Watchers' Council?
> >
> >
> I beg to differ with both of you. Andrew might have been working for
> Giles, but there is no evidence that Giles was now leading the
> Council of Watchers or any Council at all.
>
> A big crucial part of the Council of Watchers might have been blown
> up, but it does not follow that Giles was now one of the most senior
> watchers left standing. I would surmise that there could be a lot
> more senior watchers who were not there at the time of the explosion
> -- retired, semi-retired, on leave, on sabbatical, on missions,
> etc--that could have more seniority than Giles. If there were such
> happy chaps still left standing, I invoke maximum mayhem to make most
> of them as stodgy as Quentin, and most of them despising Giles.
But do any of those guys matter? As Buffy said, without an actual
Slayer, the Watchers might as well be watching Masterpiece Theatre.
She's the one with the inside track on all the newly activated Slayers.
Without her, they're out in the cold. There might be some leftover
members who have some control over the financial assets of the old
council, but it's Buffy who has the Slayers themselves.
> The Council of Watchers could have reconstituted with or without
> Giles involvement, as long as they still had money. A stuffy
> organization with a stuffy mentality would not change overnight by
> just an explosion. If anything, they could easily find an excuse to
> blame Buffy's group for the mishap.
But *all* they've got is money. The Slayers are all in Buffy's camp.
Given time, the old Council might be able to track down some of the new
Slayers, and convince them to to follow the old Council, but Buffy's the
one with the head start in that race. All the potentials that the
Council knew about were either killed by the First, or sent to
Sunnydale, and are already on Buffy's side.
> My two cents worth, but in my view, having more antagonists for the heroes
> generate more interesting stories.
True, and just because they're starting out with a disadvantage, doesn't
mean that the old guard of the Council is going to give up. But in the
here and now, it's Buffy who is running the show, (She's the one who
could put a dozen Slayers into L.A. at Andrew's beck and call) and if
she hasn't put Giles in charge of the Watchers, she will have at least
put someone that he approved of into that spot. (He might have demurred
from the top spot, since he doesn't see himself as an administrator, but
if it isn't him in the top spot, it will be someone that he
recommended.)
Apteryx
Sure. And that is the main point. If they wanted to play it as tragedy with
our heroes noble in death they could easily have filmed that. Perhaps with
an added element, notwithstanding the signing away thing, of showing Spike
dusted but Angel's dead body remaining intact (or vice versa if preferred)
in ironic fulfillment of the Shanshu. But they didn't. Exeunt fighting is
the point they wanted to make. We don't need to know whether they survived.
--
Apteryx
Ken from Chicago
"(Harmony) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote in message
news:nnoIh.2165$DN.1219@pd7urf2no...
Tis a flesh wound.
Plus gut wounds can be notoriously slow to bleed out.
-- Ken from Chicago
One Bit Shy
> ANGEL
> Season Five, Episode 22: "Not Fade Away"
> Our villains talk some sense but misread the situation when they want
> Angel to sign away his Shanshu. And thus we wipe out a big constant
> of the show with a binding contract. I think it works. The show
> treats it as almost an afterthought, as it is to Angel, and to the
> viewer - somewhere along the line, the reward became unimportant.
The Shanshu bit is very intriguing to me. I suspect that Bell & Whedon were
playing rather fast and loose with W&H's thinking here because they were
after the impact upon Angel first and foremost. But - hey - they put it in
the story, so we get to ponder its implications all around.
The first thing that strikes me is, wait a minute, that's not how prophecies
work. They foresee a future, but they don't control it. If you can just
sign away prophecies, what meaning can they really have? The setup is
intriguing - but odd. Somehow feels wrong.
I'll put that aside for a moment and ask instead what W&H thought they were
doing. Shanshu has been presented to us from the start (or from when Wesley
did a better job of translating) as ambiguous. The vampire with a soul was
to play a big part in the apocalypse - but it wasn't known what that part
was or whose side that vampire would be on. W&H seemed to place a lot of
stock in this prophecy (even though they were surprisingly cavalier about it
falling into Angel's hands) and their actions against Angel appeared to be
constrained by its existence. As I took it, they were reluctant to act
against Angel directly because they harbored hope that he would take their
side, and because such action would be futile since his influence upon the
apocalypse was pre-ordained. In other words, the only play that could do
any good would be to win him to their side. The one alternate idea we've
seen (this year) is that by drawing him into W&H, they would either finally
seduce him or distract him long enough so that whatever damage he caused to
their plans would come too late and be too little.
So, here he is, a newly initiated member of the Black Thorn, the ultimate
inner circle on earth, and by all appearances fully won over to W&H's cause.
So what do they do? Have him sign away his part in the prophecy, thereby
removing his prophetic role that could have helped them. Doesn't that seem
odd? They got what they were after and then threw it away.
Hmmm. Maybe the threat created by him being on the inside outweighed the
possible value of him fulfilling the prophecy in their favor. But if that's
the case, why did they let him into the Black Thorn? (Or, for that matter,
the L.A. branch of W&H) I suppose they might consider prophecy free Angel
to be valuable enough in their service to make it worthwhile. I'm not sure
what in his prior performance would tell them that, but at this point the
speculation moves too far into the gray to make anything out.
So the related question becomes what exactly happened when Angel signed the
prophecy. Evidently he's out of the picture. But does that mean that the
prophecy ends? What we seem to have been told up until now is that Spike is
a perfectly good candidate for the prophecy himself - and for now, anyway,
not ready to be corrupted. Didn't Angel's act just shift it all onto
Spike's shoulders? Why would W&H trade the prophecy from the vampire they
control to the one they don't? Curiously, they don't seem worried about
Spike.
Sebassis: Spike is not the threat. You are.
The signing scene would seem to suggest that W&H has actually concluded that
Angel will not and cannot come down on their side of the apocalypse. At
least not so long as Shanshu offers him hope for something better. (More or
less what they said, but more filled in.) So they take away Angel's hope,
which removes him from the prophecy, and should make it easier to control
him now that he's on the inside. Spike *is* a threat, but one still with
the opportunity to corrupt. (He seems to want to be a real boy too, but
we'll never know how that might have played out.)
That's nice and pat except for the unreality of the signing to begin with.
There are a couple other possibilities. Both involving a scam. Perhaps
Angel didn't really sign away anything. The folks at that table just got
him to believe he had. The prophecy is still in place. But now Angel,
having lost his hope, will be compliant to their wishes and fight on their
side. I rather like that approach - and it could have made for some nice S6
fodder as Spike mistakenly believes he's the man now. But the problem with
it is that it should leave Angel untouchable (for the same reason he's
always been), which we see at the end of the episode isn't so.
One more possibility occurs to me. Shanshu was a sham all along. (And
Angel getting hold of it was deliberate by W&H.) It was a long-term
campaign to build up false hope - even dependency - and then take it away,
as the means of recruiting a promising employee like Angel. His signing of
the (fake) document would have been intended as the triumphant moment. By
this scenario, W&H's rage at its failure and the consequences of it would
make full sense.
Of course I have no idea what's really true. I don't believe there is a
truth. Just the abrupt end of a story filled with possibilities for a
future we never see. And some fun pondering those possibilities.
Returning to the simple surface presentation, the implication from the W&H
side that matters now is that they are no longer restrained from attacking
Angel if they choose. Signing away the prophecy gave W&H license to come
after him in the end.
> The
> idea of this big heroic sacrifice does its job in balancing the need
> to convey both the futility - I mean, everyone dies except the
> villains - and making it kinda into something worth fighting for
> anyway. No one's giving up. Like I've been arguing, it's about
> sending a message to the cruel forces of the Universe that's worth it
> if you have a certain frame of mind, and then being ready to take
> whatever tradeoff comes along with it. It's the logical extension of
> the W&H deal itself, but now Angel's controlling things to the extent
> he can given the corner into which he's been backed (and backed
> himself).
The stated meaning of Shanshu at that signing party was hope. That's what
Shanshu represented to Angel. The people at that meeting misunderstood the
state of Angel's hope at the time, but I believe the idea of what it
represented is supposed to be true.
In a prior post I posited that absolution is what Angel hoped for. Or
perhaps more poetically, the promise of heaven. However one wants to
describe it, it seems to have always been tied into Angel's quest for
redemption. Keeping that in mind, when Angel signed away the prophecy, he
symbolically signed away the possibility for redemption. When no less than
the devil hands him the pen to sign with blood, the symbolism is signing
away the soul. This being Angel, it always had to be about the soul.
And you say no one's giving up.
I'm surprised that my suggestion of that is being resisted. I really
thought it was self evident. And I continue to think I must be expressing
it wrong. Let me point to your own comment above that this is the logical
extension of the W&H deal itself. That deal having always been described as
a devil's bargain.
What is a devil's bargain? Besides the classic signing away of a soul
notion, it's a simple trade. Give something. Get something. Well, not so
simple, because you normally get something spectacular. (Unless you're a
young Gunn settling for a truck.) And you give away a core part of
yourself.
I personally think that the story of last episode up through this signing
quite clearly shows Angel giving up his battle for redemption that started
with Whistler showing him Buffy. Oh, maybe something about this will
inspire somebody to do something in the future if they even know about it,
but he's made it not his problem anymore. He reduced himself to nothing
more than going for the blazing finish. He does love to fight.
Enough of that. Let me move to the part I didn't talk about last episode
because - well - it hadn't happened yet.
One of the reasons I like the idea of the Shanshu signing being some sort of
scam is because it means Angel didn't actually sign away anything. He's
still got his soul and hope still exists - even if it's not embodied in
Shanshu and even though he doesn't realize it.
But even if that's not true, Shanshu is still just one prophecy. One that
doesn't speak to every other path in life.
Back in Underneath, Lindsey threw out a really curious comment that I didn't
comment on at the time. "Turns out they can only undo you as far as you
think you deserve to be undone." I think that's worth some thought. (As
well as remembering both Holland and Lilah's acceptance of their fate.)
It's easy to dismiss that as the silly notion of choosing one's hell. I
choose Disneyworld. But I don't believe that's what it's going for. It's
not so easy to choose what you know is true about yourself. Just look at
Angel himself, who has never been able to get past the notion that he can
never deserve absolution.
Remember Holland's message in Reprise that the evil is in all of us - not
only part of what we are, but an essential element of defining humanity. It
wasn't something that W&H inflicted upon humanity - just something they
exploit. Extend the thought and any W&H hell would work the same way.
Holland and Lilah knew their fate was earned and could not resist it.
Lindsey, though, evidently fell short of that. Perhaps Lindsey's periodic
moments of conscience and real love (Darla, Eve) and walking out on W&H
mitigated some his evil so that he was stuck in just a pretty bad hell.
Getting back to this story, that notion would suggest that Angel cannot
actually sign away any more than he believes he's earned. (At that moment,
Angel on a rather down side probably believed he had no possibility of
redemption.) More to the point, W&H cannot exact any more than he's earned
no matter what pieces of paper he signs. Those infamous contracts of W&H
may have no power in themselves. It's all in the minds (and souls) of those
who sign them. Perhaps that's the real reason why it did no good for Wesley
to burn Lilah's contract. He had to change Lilah herself. But he failed.
If so, Angel's prospects could be better than one thinks. With that in
mind, let me point towards something I don't think you noted.
With the exception of the Nina moments, Angel in last episode right up
through the signing of Shanshu burned in a steady low rage waiting for the
time to explode. He wore his pissed off expression pretty constantly. Even
through the revelation at the end of Power Play.
And then, right after the signing, we see a pensive Angel seeking to
remember his human life and listening to Harmony speak of the feel of a
beating heart. He goes on to give everybody a last day off and spends his
time with Connor. If I'm not mistaken, I believe he even offered one last
chance of redemption to Lindsey - though Lindsey didn't recognize the offer.
In several ways he reached out to touch his own humanity to a degree rarely
seen in this series. He would be serious a few times before the end - even
angry. But I don't believe he reached that burning rage again. At the very
end he was imagining doing the impossible. He wanted to slay the dragon.
Angel's attitude visibly changed upon signing away Shanshu. I think he
believed that he was indeed giving up hope then. Or really, just
formalizing it since he'd already given that up in his mind. But what
happened instead was that the albatross was removed from his shoulder - the
artificial burden of defining his life according to the demands of a pie in
the sky offer was removed. Shanshu may have been every bit as much a
devil's bargain as joining W&H had been.
It's not hard to draw an anti-religion message (or judeo-christian anyway)
from that. Much as was done in S4, albeit less blatant. Perhaps. But I
don't care to expand on that. More personally he completed the task of
deciding he was not beholden to any master or set of expectations placed
upon him. Only he can know if and when he is redeemed - or damned. It is
not for others to judge. He'll just do the best he can in the way he best
knows how. And with this, the framing of the end shifts. It's not so much
about the corner he's backed into or the options he doesn't have. It stops
being about giving up his dream and desperately grasping for the spectacular
finish.
Oh, there's a good amount of spectacular along the way - he's still Angel.
But it's not really about killing the members of the secret cabal or the
lesson it leaves behind. It's not a gesture at all. It's Angel saying the
hell with the various powers and taking command of his own soul. The
solution to W&H really was to leave it. And the thing that W&H lost was not
those demons strewn about as carrion. They will all be replaced. What they
lost was Angel.
The absolute end of a hopeless battle is simply the representation of the
same battle it always was. We can never really win the battle of life.
Just fight it. And therein is the living of it.
Illyria: Wesley. This wound is mortal.
Wesley: Aren't we all?
> And now, it's time to say goodbye...
>
> SPIKE: It's odd to me how little he shaped the season. What I mean
> is, I was prepared to accept him as Angel's equal in terms of
> importance to the story, the way he was close to Buffy's on her show.
> The series proceeded to give us Spike angling for Angel's role and on
> a meta level threatening to take over ATS. But that story ended up
> being all about Dead Boy #1, and by the time of "Not Fade Away," I
> agree with those who say that Spike is very clearly one of the
> sidekicks. He doesn't even get to do any extended on-screen fighting
> in his last appearance; I wonder if there were any backstage factors
> involved.
I wouldn't know, but I take the relative unimportance of Spike in the final
run to be more a tribute to the group that had been there all along. Spike
got a whole lot of play earlier on, but Wesley, Fred & Gunn are more
important to the series. And especially Angel. It was their due to be more
central to the end. Perhaps if the series had continued that might have
changed, but for one season it would have played wrong.
The problem is that Spike was a larger than life character walking into the
series. I think some really good things were done with him. Most notably
for me being Destiny and Damage. But I don't deem it a big success. I
think he helped AtS more than hurt it, but I'm not convinced AtS needed him.
More importantly, for me, the season diminished some the character we were
left with at the end of BtVS.
> Spending his last night on earth in a bar seems like a
> disappointment at first, but that turns out to be the setup for him
> finally finding an audience for his poetry, which is both hilarious
> and poignant. "That was for Cecily." A toast to old loves before the
> end.
That, however, was fucking fantastic. I was totally caught off guard by it
and loved it. "This next one's called 'The Wanton Folly of Me Mum.'" Heh.
He also gets props for, "Can I deny you 3 times?"
> HARMONY (and her boss): The only character other than Angel himself
> to appear in both the first and last Buffyverse episodes.
I don't think she was in WTTH, but if you count The Harvest as part of the
first episode, then yes. (If you count the "pilot", then she stands alone.)
> The letter of recommendation is another very good gag.
I wouldn't consider this a terribly comedic episode, but the laughs it gives
are big ones. I loved that.
> GUNN: Don't really have much new to say about him related to NFA,
> although I'll mention that I really got to appreciate the character in
> Season Five, far more than in previous years.
Very good season for him, though they didn't seem to quite know what to do
with him at the very end. I believe that Angel saw himself when he looked
at Gunn this year. Key moment - telling Gunn on the hospital bed to use the
knowledge W&H gave him. A little message to himself, huh?
> LORNE (and Lindsey, and the mastermind): I'd actually heard, without
> knowing who said the lines or the context, of Lindsey's reaction to
> being killed by a supporting cast member, and had totally forgotten
> it, so it was exciting to finally see that. As much as I liked
> watching Kane and his character, this couldn't have happened to a
> nicer guy. I should've suspected something with all the emphasis
> about how important Lorne would be as backup, and about this big job
> he was going to do before running, but I was totally clueless.
Wesley's death was more emotional, but Lorne pulling the gun was the biggest
shock of the episode for me. Made me jump. And how about Lindsey's death
scene? I think the commentary described it as Jimmy Cagney.
This was easily Lorne's best season for me. I finally got a sense of what
was behind the character, and he's responsible for a couple of the season's
most memorable moments - this and the double take when Fred sang.
> WESLEY (and Eve):
Oh, so you're a Wesley/Eve shipper. Didn't know those existed. <hee>
> Wow. We've seen him apparently empty and lifeless
> before - the end of Season Three comes to mind. I don't know if it's
> ever been quite like this. There's a detachment to it that in some
> ways makes it seem worse. It's one of the most matter-of-fact
> deliveries you'll see (outside Angel in TSILA) on a line like "there
> is nothing that I want." I was a little worried that he'd take
> Illyria up on her offer, but he sees that it wouldn't help. It might
> be worth contrasting him with Eve, who apparently stays behind to die
> after learning what Angel's done to Lindsey. She's quietly crushed
> and can't see anything worth wanting either,
It never occurred to me that she would stay to die. Hmmm. Maybe. I'd
imagined her just living out a long lonely ruined life. Seems to fit
Lorne's portent.
> but Wesley's not like her
> - he wants to live. I do believe his line suggesting that he was
> holding out hope on getting through the day alive. So hey, guess
> who's the only one of the core group who 100%, definitely,
> unambiguously ends up dead? Joss Whedon is not a nice man.
<sigh> No.
> Wes does
> admittedly seem slow to use his weapons against Vail, but I say he's
> just trying to best deliver the killing blow.
One of the clunkier parts of the episode - and there were a couple. But
this time they all feel like something to shut out of our awareness.
> Just like at the end of
> S3, no matter how dead inside he is, he never quits. Back then he
> saved our hero. This time it's his persistence in helping an evil god-
> king in need that's the ultimate instrument by which his fight gets
> won.
Angel gets a few things from all the characters this season to contribute to
this ending. Like the notion that Lorne's advantage was not judging. Or
seeing how Wesley made the hard decision. Bits and pieces drawn in to make
the final piece. What he drew from people sometimes was scary. Like,
"Serve no master but your ambition," from Illyria. But the process is also
a sort of hidden part of Angel getting in touch with humanity for the
conclusion.
Anyway, there's a small neat parallel with Fred here. Angel used Fred's
terrible death as a weapon against the Black Thorn, thereby drawing value
from tragedy. Now Angel sends Wesley to Vail with the pretense of betraying
Angel - which Vail will believe because of Wesley's history. (Vail's part
in the memory spell would make him intimately familiar with Wesley's
history.) And so Wesley's greatest shame is put to use as a weapon, giving
value to it. It's a small gift to Wesley. And I think he got it. There at
least seemed to be mutual respect and affection in their final look at each
other.
> ILLYRIA (and more about Wesley, whose paragraph was getting too
> long): Yeah, I'd say she cared about her human.
She likes the look of Gunn though... And people say Fred's essence isn't
really seeping in. Hah!
> She did end up kinda
> Anya-like after all at times, but with the power to channel her
> sublimated desire to retaliate in as violent a manner as possible when
> her authority is challenged.
One can only imagine what might have happened with that character in S6.
The Anya comparison is valid, but I think they did that story. They're
creative people though - maybe they would have come up with another twist on
that. My suspicion is that they were heading somewhere else. I think this
was going to be another great exploration of what makes up humanity. With
Angel and his soul we explored the function of a conscience or guilt. With
Spike's chip we explored how much humanity is defined by one's deeds. They
were offered as polar opposites, but as the story unfolded we saw both
heavily influenced by their human memories. So with Illyria, the human
element is memory.
> I think Wesley's dying moments may have
> gotten me closer to crying than anything in "A Hole In The World."
It definitely did for me - and not just close. But a big reason for that is
how it paralleled A Hole In The World. Fred dies in Wesley's arms. Now
Wesley dies in Fred's arms. It's as beautiful as it is awful. Not sure
about the meeting in heaven stuff though.
> Rather than delve too much into Illyria's side of things,
> I'd just like to focus on the moment when she *makes Vail's fucking
> head explode*. Those are some thoroughly awesome milliseconds there,
> with an eruption of goop worthy of _Street Trash_. So damn cool.
Oh, yeah. I could feel that punch. Right there with her.
And, wow, you know Street Trash. I don't know many people who do. It's
kind of a personal favorite of mine. The funny thing is that I had just
thought of it while watching The Girl In Question of all episodes. It was
the keep away scene with the head that prompted it.
> I knew there was
> a badass one-liner coming up, but I didn't catch on to which word
> Jayne shouldn't have said until the part where Angel does the blood-
> drinking vampire thing.
Neither did I. I remember sitting there trying to figure it out before the
reveal and not getting it. -duh-
> The very last scene is a strong idea, but it's just slightly too
> abrupt for my taste. Where did all the monsters come from, and are
> they going to swarm across the world and kill everyone after they get
> past our heroes? (Or are they specifically targeted at our guys?) If
> the Senior Partners have always had the power to unleash something
> like this, why not do so before?
Because only now have they lost Angel.
Anyway, at this point, I think it's largely disconnected from the episode
and moves to being the final series statement. For that purpose it would
get in the way to flesh it out with detail. It's just about the fight.
> For obvious reasons, this will be my final full-length Buffyverse
> review as the Arbitrar Of Quality. It's been a pleasure discovering
> these two shows and being a part of this. Despite the toll it's taken
> on my time and the things I've had to put aside, this past year (plus)
> has been incredibly rewarding. As always, my deep appreciation to
> everyone who's read and contributed.
I'm quite glad you got so much out of it. And as always, my deep
appreciation to you for making possible a great experience for me that I was
sure would never happen. You were mana from heaven.
> So...
>
> One-sentence summary: YOU'RE GONNA CARRY THAT WEIGHT.
>
> AOQ rating: Excellent
In spite of deep reservations at the end of Power Play, this pulled the
rabbit out of the hat and won me over for a pretty satisfying conclusion.
Excellent for me as well.
OBS
Wes <3254176>
wrote:
>As for the season as a whole, I like it, but it's not my favorite.
>(Right now season 3 still holds that title.) I think it could have been
>improved if they had given the W&H plot line more of a gradual, steady
>development, episodic nature be damned. They should have had the group go
>into W&H with hope and trepidation, gradually found themselves getting
>corrupted, and finally found themselves again by deciding to pull the
>temple down. Instead, it was really only Gunn and maybe Lorne who showed
>this development (and their corruption wasn't gradual); everyone else
>pretty much just continued in the same worried "are we doing the right
>thing?" state for most of the season.
>
The season struck me as a warning about a specific type of corruption:
complacency (in the fight against evil).
They got settled in and when the occasional 'setback' occurred it only
brought a few mild comments about why they were there. Through the
first 14 episodes I thought it seemed like they felt that they just
needed to do a better job of running W&H.
Evil law firm aside, I imagine that Wes and Fred were both doing the
*type* of work they expected to be doing at that point in their lives
and were comfortable there.
Lorne was in his element with the entertainment division and, while I
have no idea if he wanted to grow up to be a lawyer, Gunn certainly
wanted some (self) respect for something other than his muscle.
They had that at W&H and wanted to make it work.
Then they all took a knife to the gut when evil was rolled in and it
struck down Fred.
Wes
One Bit Shy
> On Mar 9, 8:59 pm, chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
>> Wow! I too am really glad Joss vetoed it. For one thing, I don't think
>> *either* Angel or Spike is really the right one for Buffy. (And if I had
>> to choose one of them, frankly I would choose Angel without hesitation.)
>
> Dear Lord no! Sorry, but they barely know each other anymore (not that
> they ever knew each other very well) - and I doubt Buffy could come to
> terms with who Angel had become (and possibly the other way around
> too). Spike and Buffy at least have no illusions and don't do that
> bottling thing. (Also Buffy and Angel are both Leaders, and neither
> would be comfortable being second.)
Angel and Buffy would have split up when Angel complained one too many times
about hanging the weapons in their proper slots. It's his compulsiveness
that would have driven her away.
Spike's just easier to live with.
That's my story.
> (Of course that also means that Spike/Angel is the only pairing to
> survive the end of the show - except for Willow/Kennedy - which makes
> me very happy!)
Oh, lord. No. They weren't that kind of couple no matter how much the show
teased at it.
OBS
Elisi
> "Elisi" <elis...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1173479725.5...@c51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Mar 9, 8:59 pm, chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote:
> >> Wow! I too am really glad Joss vetoed it. For one thing, I don't think
> >> *either* Angel or Spike is really the right one for Buffy. (And if I had
> >> to choose one of them, frankly I would choose Angel without hesitation.)
>
> > Dear Lord no! Sorry, but they barely know each other anymore (not that
> > they ever knew each other very well) - and I doubt Buffy could come to
> > terms with who Angel had become (and possibly the other way around
> > too). Spike and Buffy at least have no illusions and don't do that
> > bottling thing. (Also Buffy and Angel are both Leaders, and neither
> > would be comfortable being second.)
>
> Angel and Buffy would have split up when Angel complained one too many times
> about hanging the weapons in their proper slots. It's his compulsiveness
> that would have driven her away.
>
> Spike's just easier to live with.
>
> That's my story.
Hee! There is of course also this (minor spoiler for S8 comic):
Ohssl: "Terng zhccrgl Bqva, V zvff gung frk."
> > (Of course that also means that Spike/Angel is the only pairing to
> > survive the end of the show - except for Willow/Kennedy - which makes
> > me very happy!)
>
> Oh, lord. No. They weren't that kind of couple no matter how much the show
> teased at it.
Oh I didn't mean it like that. Whether they were sleeping together or
not makes no difference.
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> constrained by its existence. As I took it, they were reluctant to act
> against Angel directly because they harbored hope that he would take their
> side, and because such action would be futile since his influence upon the
> apocalypse was pre-ordained. In other words, the only play that could do
the prophecy could be ambiguous because the vampires role is not foreordained
that it merely means angel (or spike) will be present
but that vampire still is free to chooose good or evil
theres a notion of free will and prophecy derived from newton
that the universe is vast clockwork
and once started it continues irrevokably along its future history
controlled by a few simple rules
then all that is left is to get the exact state of the universe
and this is possible in principle
and then you can run the universe backwards and forwards and know everything
this is in calvinism with its believe that your life and your salvation
were decided when the unvierse was created
its also assumed in a nonproof of god
that declares omniscience and free will are incompatiable
becuase omniscience means there is only one possible future history
in the twentieth century physics shifted
even if philosophy remains lost in the woods (as always)
one is that state of the universe is not knowable to science
we cannot get a single snapshot of the entire universe at one single moment
the second is there is no a single future history
an event can have multiple equally valid outcomes
chosen at chance? freewill?
and the multiple future histories are not merely a computational trick
but the superimposed alternatives have a measurable physical effect
the novel _dune_ has paul atreides experiencing and explaining
his view of the future not as a single thread
(though sometimes the future can be narrowed to one channel)
but a vast field of possibilities driven by what we choose in the present
so i see the prophecy not as a declaration of what the vampure will do
because having a human soul the vampire is free to choose good or evil
and if it chooses good as a consequence of its actions
it will become human again and have a chance of spiritual redemption
so that when it dies as a human it has a chance to a heaven
the details vary but for christians salvation is for the living
and with death comes the consequences of the choices while alive
angel died and he went to acathalas hell
and while he is animated corpse forced to share a soul
he is still dead and under christian rules (more or less)
it would seem irredeemable
this is the view angel earlier in the season
when he states he did not escape hell
he merely got a temporary furlough
and eventually hes going back to the big weenie roast forever
but if angel truly lives again
the rules would appear to allow him to choose wisely this time
and eventually die a human in the whedon universe version of grace
and not go to hell again
despair is sometimes considered a sin
and if angel despairs that can mean he has sinned and truly turned to evil
i see the shanshu signing as a test of whether angel has despaired
if he has given up all hope of somehow somewhen escaping hell
and instead embraced all that is evil
then signing the shanshu away is not so much as if a legal contract
but rather an act of sacrilege which demonstrates his despair and evil
angel agreeing to sign could mean
either its not a sacrilege to him and does not change his possibilities
or that he truly despaired but he has only one last retaliation
from the gates of hell before he is trapped inside forever
> Spike's shoulders? Why would W&H trade the prophecy from the vampire they
> control to the one they don't? Curiously, they don't seem worried about
> Spike.
>
> Sebassis: Spike is not the threat. You are.
the black thorn are not wrh
they have their own agenda
black thorn are aligned supported etc with the senior partners
but they are facing their own threats and issues and desires
spike is not ceo of hell inc
nor does spike have a long history of hunting down demon lords
so while spike might concern wrh its possible hes nothing to black thorn
meow arf meow - they are performing horrible experiments in space
major grubert is watching you - beware the bakalite
impeach the bastard - the airtight garage has you neo
Stephen Tempest
>Hee! There is of course also this (minor spoiler for S8 comic):
>
>Ohssl: "Terng zhccrgl Bqva, V zvff gung frk."
She's talking about Faith, post-Chosen, of course.
;)
Stephen
Elisi
wrote:
I really should get working on that OT4...
Michael Ikeda
news:12v4oup...@news.supernews.com:
> "Elisi" <eli...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1173479725.5...@c51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>> (Of course that also means that Spike/Angel is the only pairing
>> to survive the end of the show - except for Willow/Kennedy -
>> which makes me very happy!)
>
> Oh, lord. No. They weren't that kind of couple no matter how
> much the show teased at it.
Except for that one time, of course...
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Exp315
Regarding the Shanshu prophecy, I think the fact that W&H did (for the
most part) leave Angel alone all those years is evidence that it was
real. Regardless of what role Angel was to play in the Apocalypse, the
fact that he had a role meant that any move to take him out too early
was doomed to fail, and probably to rebound on the movers. The little
things that W&H did to harass him over the years may have been simply
local W&H folks acting out of spite about the situation, or even
subtle moves by Jasmine years in advance (e.g., bringing back Darla).
Now, I favor the idea that the signing-away ceremony in NFA was a
ruse, just a test by the Black Thorn. Angel may or may not have
believed it - his apparent change in attitude afterward may have been
simply because it got him thinking about his place in the world.
But if the Shanshu prophecy did have a restraining effect on W&H, how
do we explain the fight in the alley at the end? Are the Senior
Partners planning to kill both Angel and Spike in that alley? Doesn't
the prophecy say that can't happen? Or is Angel's key role in the
Apocalypse already over?
Espen Schjønberg
> ANGEL
> Season Five, Episode 22: "Not Fade Away"
>
> One-sentence summary: YOU'RE GONNA CARRY THAT WEIGHT.
>
> AOQ rating: Excellent
>
I just want to log it for the world, cause it is so important. ;-)
Well: I did enjoy the end of this very much. Just the way it should end.
Let people fantasize (of course they died, but we can dream. Or let the
ones you want to keep- I always figured that would have been Spike and
Illyria - realize they have to take care of that pesky Tezcatcatls
talisman or something. Of course, there will be no more movies, but it
could have been. )
Anyhow: I did regard Angels plan as Wrong. Of course he could not hurt
the senior partners more than just a bit. His betrayal was Wrong.
And, and I am willing to repeat this: it is the old story of someone
believing "the ends justify the means".
This will never be true.
Unless you switch to the bad guys.
> 22) "Not Fade Away" - Excellent]
Given the setup, which very much binds the writer of this one? Perhaps.
It was a good story.
I rated all of Buffy, I don't think I will ever rate all of Angel.
But it was a ride.
--
Espen
One Bit Shy
>> falling into Angel's hands) and their actions against Angel appeared to
>> be
>> constrained by its existence. As I took it, they were reluctant to act
>> against Angel directly because they harbored hope that he would take
>> their
>> side, and because such action would be futile since his influence upon
>> the
>> apocalypse was pre-ordained. In other words, the only play that could do
>
> the prophecy could be ambiguous because the vampires role is not
> foreordained
> that it merely means angel (or spike) will be present
> but that vampire still is free to chooose good or evil
That's more or less what I was trying to say - I just didn't mention the
choosing part. The particular point I was going after was that it would be
pointless for WRH to try to kill Angelus because he was going to influence
the apocalypse anyway. (Or being there as you say.) The only reasonable
play they had was to try to influence his choice of sides. Therefore, the
attempts to seduce him.
> so i see the prophecy not as a declaration of what the vampure will do
> because having a human soul the vampire is free to choose good or evil
I agree with that mostly. I would point out though that Angel tied acts of
redemption into it as necessary to achieve it's promised reward. In other
words, for Angel, it wasn't completely prophecy or free will. It was also a
path of near impossible obligation. Something he would succeed or fail at.
> and if it chooses good as a consequence of its actions
> it will become human again and have a chance of spiritual redemption
> so that when it dies as a human it has a chance to a heaven
Which I guess is akin to what I just said. So we must not disagree all that
much on this.
> the details vary but for christians salvation is for the living
> and with death comes the consequences of the choices while alive
I believe most Christian theology would disagree with that. (Though maybe
not most Christians.) The only choice that really matters is accepting
Christ. Much of the point of Christ's promise of forgiveness is that life
shouldn't be some kind of grand test of worthiness for heaven. Humanity
sins by its very nature, and it would be wrong to condemn them for merely
being what they are. (Sort of like cursing a rock for being hard.)
"Forgive them, for they know not what they do." In most Christian theology
there is no sin that cannot be forgiven except rejection of God. And even
that is less sin than a really bad choice. Many (maybe most) will say that
accepting Christ by its nature requires changing one's behavior, and demands
things like atonement, which makes behavior part of the process. But since
even failure at that gets forgiven if you return to him in the end, the
notion kind of gets washed away as a requirement for entry to heaven.
Christ is the door, the way. That's the sum of it. Some sects are adamant
that earthly concerns have no meaning at all. And that it's folly - even
blasphemy - to believe that deeds can lead you to heaven.
But I think this is a digression. Angel believes in something akin to that.
> angel died and he went to acathalas hell
> and while he is animated corpse forced to share a soul
> he is still dead and under christian rules (more or less)
> it would seem irredeemable
>
> this is the view angel earlier in the season
> when he states he did not escape hell
> he merely got a temporary furlough
> and eventually hes going back to the big weenie roast forever
>
> but if angel truly lives again
> the rules would appear to allow him to choose wisely this time
> and eventually die a human in the whedon universe version of grace
> and not go to hell again
>
>
> despair is sometimes considered a sin
> and if angel despairs that can mean he has sinned and truly turned to evil
>
> i see the shanshu signing as a test of whether angel has despaired
> if he has given up all hope of somehow somewhen escaping hell
> and instead embraced all that is evil
>
> then signing the shanshu away is not so much as if a legal contract
> but rather an act of sacrilege which demonstrates his despair and evil
You're going even further with the religious symbolism than I was, but I
think that's a pretty good framing. (And I'm glad to see someone going
there at all. I was wondering why I hadn't seen this kind of take on
Shanshu from others.)
> angel agreeing to sign could mean
> either its not a sacrilege to him and does not change his possibilities
> or that he truly despaired but he has only one last retaliation
> from the gates of hell before he is trapped inside forever
And I end up with a combination of the two, which I mostly sense in his
demeanor before and after. I think he despaired much as you describe when
he signed it. But then found a burden lifted from him rather than
damnation. In the end, he broke through the belief system represented by
Shanshu (and perversely supported by W&H) and took charge of his own soul -
rejecting the artificial standards inflicted from outside. (Such as his
father's expectations - something he so much didn't want to inflict upon
Connor.)
In the process he finally integrates himself. So you see the true vampire
come out against Hamilton, but in service of Angel's cause. (Not the first
time that's happened of course. He's drunk from others. But this time it
doesn't feel like something he's descended to from terrible necessity or
weakness. This time he's seizing an opportunity almost joyfully.) Or you
can see a subtle shift in the meaning of his desire to, "kill them all".
That desire that tended to well up in him was something he feared - a
representation of Angelus and the 100 plus years of relentless evil and the
100 more of relentless guilt over it. But he's not out to kill nuns today,
and the impulse isn't really bloodlust. It's the righteous revulsion
against the horrific evil around him. After all, how many did Buffy kill?
To me, this feels like the first time he has been able to order his feelings
and trust his conscience.
So he took the pen thinking he was committing sacrilege - forced to by
circumstance and dark desires - and then discovered that it wasn't anything
of the sort and that his desires were purer than he had ever imagined.
>> Spike's shoulders? Why would W&H trade the prophecy from the vampire
>> they
>> control to the one they don't? Curiously, they don't seem worried about
>> Spike.
>>
>> Sebassis: Spike is not the threat. You are.
>
> the black thorn are not wrh
> they have their own agenda
>
> black thorn are aligned supported etc with the senior partners
> but they are facing their own threats and issues and desires
>
> spike is not ceo of hell inc
> nor does spike have a long history of hunting down demon lords
> so while spike might concern wrh its possible hes nothing to black thorn
I considered that take, but decided against it. To begin with, the
connection between the circle and WRH seems tighter than that.
Lindsey: To be a Black Thorn is to be the senior partners' instrument on
Earth.
The Black Thorn members may not have had a plan for Spike yet, but if so,
only because WRH hadn't passed one along yet.
More specifically to this event, Hamilton is the one who personally takes
Angel to this meeting and demonstrates full awareness of what was done at
it. I think that demonstrates both awareness and approval - probably
direction - by our monstrous lawyers on another plane. And they certainly
would have taken Spike into account.
OBS
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
liam wouldve been raised christian
and appears to accept that as the truth
angel seems to have retained that and regards himself as the damned
> In the process he finally integrates himself. So you see the true vampire
> come out against Hamilton, but in service of Angel's cause. (Not the first
its hard to tell
for example there are times when depressives can become happy
the weight of the world lifted
thats because theyve decided to suicide and already set it in motion
so the decision is made and they know soon their pain will end
and they can relax in that comforting knowledge
so another explanation is angel decided hey f--k it im damned no matter
so he decides to do a wrath of khan impression
and stop fighting and just go to hell already
for the eternal weenie roast and the attack of the fifty foot woman in a bikini
> > spike is not ceo of hell inc
> > nor does spike have a long history of hunting down demon lords
> > so while spike might concern wrh its possible hes nothing to black thorn
>
> I considered that take, but decided against it. To begin with, the
> connection between the circle and WRH seems tighter than that.
oft evil does evil mar - gandalf (actually jrrt)
i dont think the black thorn would regard themselves as lackeys
doing what they are told
they would assert their independence regardless of what the reality is
One Bit Shy
news:1173541653.3...@s48g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
> Interesting thoughts, OBS.
>
> Regarding the Shanshu prophecy, I think the fact that W&H did (for the
> most part) leave Angel alone all those years is evidence that it was
> real. Regardless of what role Angel was to play in the Apocalypse, the
> fact that he had a role meant that any move to take him out too early
> was doomed to fail, and probably to rebound on the movers. The little
> things that W&H did to harass him over the years may have been simply
> local W&H folks acting out of spite about the situation, or even
> subtle moves by Jasmine years in advance (e.g., bringing back Darla).
Yes, I agree that their behavior seems to most point to them believing
Shanshu was real. On the surface anyway.
What initially made me wonder if it was real at all was the circumstances by
which Angel got hold of it to begin with. It was like it had been placed
there where he couldn't miss it. (When I originally watched the episode I
imagined a neon arrow pointing at it to be sure Angel saw it. That's how
obvious it seemed to me at the time.) The robbery that precipitated it
probably could have been predicted - W&H was in the process of testing and
honing Lindsey and might well have set that up. Even if it wasn't exactly
predicted, a modest amount of observation of Lindsey could have alerted them
to it coming.
If Shanshu was a fake all along, then their aim probably is Angel's soul.
Maybe because they think a vampire with a soul is special. (Jasmine
evidently did. She worked some mighty mojo based in part on what Angel
was.) Or maybe he's just a symbolic battle ground between them and the PTB.
They might even have a place for him in the apocalypse - just not a
pre-ordained one.
So they wouldn't be motivated to leave him alone because of the prophecy.
But they still would be so motivated because he himself is a priority object
of their desires - more important than the likes of Holland, Lindsey &
Lilah. Their plan would also have been a long term one that didn't depend
merely on the enticements of pretty cars and ancient swords. The idea was
to lead him to despair so that he would voluntarily abandon hope for
redemption, leaving him in their power. (Maybe even without him knowing
it.) By this scenario, signing away Shanshu would be the culmination of
years of effort.
One reason I like the theory is that it leaves Angel hanging by a thread
when Shanshu is placed before him. W&H is very close to winning - and for a
moment thinks it has. But the true spirit of Angel overcomes, rendering the
signing as meaningless as the document. I like the drama of that better
than Angel having been on top of it all along.
But I'm not advocating it. It's just one of multiple possibilities that
we'll never know the truth of. It's also not necessary for the story to
move as it did. Whatever the truth of Shanshu is, Angel rejects it for
himself anyway.
> Now, I favor the idea that the signing-away ceremony in NFA was a
> ruse, just a test by the Black Thorn. Angel may or may not have
> believed it - his apparent change in attitude afterward may have been
> simply because it got him thinking about his place in the world.
I like that theory a lot. Both it and the fake Shanshu one utilize some
delicious deception by the great deceivers of this universe. But in Joss's
worlds, metaphors are made real and contain enormous tangible power - not
just symbolic power. By the standards we've come to know, I think it's
probably important that both Shanshu and the signature to have magical
meaning much as presented. So the theory I most lean towards is that both
are real, and that Angel defeats it with the realization that hope is not
limited to what's offered in one obscure prophecy made by who knows who, who
knows what eon ago. Going back to the theme of choosing, Angel gets to
choose his path to hope, not have it chosen for him. So Sanshu is real (and
may yet impact Spike), but doesn't matter nearly as much as he imagined it
to.
> But if the Shanshu prophecy did have a restraining effect on W&H, how
> do we explain the fight in the alley at the end?
There are multiple possibilities for that too - a favorite one you mention
below. But I think all of the theories of Shanshu allow for one possible
answer to this - namely that Angel signing Shanshu away, but righteously
taking the fight to W&H harder then ever afterwards, means that they've lost
Angel. Failed to turn him to their side. So they fight him to defend
themselves and because they're pissed. Whether the apocalypse is at hand or
not.
> Are the Senior
> Partners planning to kill both Angel and Spike in that alley?
There's no specific information regarding that, but could they really
control a force like that so as to spare either of them amidst the bloody
brawl? They could write anything they want in an imaginary sixth season,
but the one thing we see now is the legions of death descending upon our
heroes. There is no hint of selectivity in it.
> Doesn't
> the prophecy say that can't happen? Or is Angel's key role in the
> Apocalypse already over?
Maybe. Or maybe it's just beginning. Or maybe the signature is real. Or
maybe he'll survive. Or maybe it's really about another vampire not yet
sired. These are intriguing questions, but hanging ones that can't be
answered.
OBS
lili...@gmail.com
Chosen. Where Chosen left me wanting to strangle every single one of
the survivors, NFA made me like all the members of the fang gang that
stood in that alley, even Angel.
And I think a huge part of that, is that at the end there, even though
they're about to head in a fight for their lives, with a huge
possibility of not coming out alive, they still take a moment to mourn
for Wesley.
See, Wes is one of my least fave Angel chars, yet the fact that he was
mourned by all those in that alley, makes these people more likeable
and loveable than the scoobs and makes me want to see all of them
return, even Illyria.
lili...@gmail.com
> In alt.tv.angel Elisi <elis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > That's it. And now I'll quote from a (very, very long) interview with
> > David Fury (http://www.mikejozic.com/buffyweek6.html):
>
> > FURY: The really cool thing about Season 6, we knew how Season 5 was
> > going to end very early on and we knew what it was going to launch
> > into with Season 6, which was a post-apocalyptic show [and] which I
> > thought was going to be great. It was going to be Angel in The Road
> > Warrior, which I thought would be awesome. In the ruined city of LA or
> > out in the desert or something, it was just going to be kind of a
> > really cool, different, show.
>
> Thanks for posting that, Ellisi. (I had read this interview before but
> totally forgot about that part.) After reading that quote, my first
> reaction is that it puts an entirely different spin on NFA -- Angel
> *caused* the Apocalypse! His heroic blow against evil turns out to be not
> apocalypse supposed to be happening anyway, and Angel's attack on the
> Black Thorn didn't cause it? Or was the idea to give season 6 Angel one
> more thing to atone for?
>
> > winning the shanshu and giving it to Spike - who would naturally be
> > furious because he wanted to win it himself - and then Spike would go
> > off to Rome to be with Buffy. Joss vetoed it because he wanted to keep
> > Spike a vampire for possible future projects and (although I adore
> > Spuffy to eternity and beyond) I am *so* glad he did. I love the idea
> > of Spike and Angel fighting the good fight side by side forever.
>
> *either* Angel or Spike is really the right one for Buffy. (And if I had
> to choose one of them, frankly I would choose Angel without hesitation.)
> as a friend" from Buffy, the whole thing would seem like a horrible waste.
> And maybe most importantly, it wouldn't feel right for the show for Spike
> (or Angel) to get that reward. Both characters are better seen striving
> be off the show?
>
> --Chris
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> chrisg [at] gwu.edu On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog.
Personally I would pity Buffy for the rest of her life if she ever
ended up with Angel, because she'd probably end up destroying every
fantasy she ever had about Angel and they wouldn't ever talk again or
kill eachother in less than a month.
Arbitrar Of Quality
> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1173336470.5...@8g2000cwh.googlegroups.com...
>
> playing rather fast and loose with W&H's thinking here because they were
> after the impact upon Angel first and foremost. But - hey - they put it in
> the story, so we get to ponder its implications all around.
Thinking about this too much is giving me a headache, so I'll leave
the speculations to the rest of you. Stay entertaining. Agreed that
the key is the impact on Angel, logic be damned (that's very much ME's
writing style), and I just basically feel like W&H's treatment of
Angel doesn't make perfect sense in any case, but it can be fanwanked
around.
> So the related question becomes what exactly happened when Angel signed the
> prophecy. Evidently he's out of the picture. But does that mean that the
> prophecy ends? What we seem to have been told up until now is that Spike is
> a perfectly good candidate for the prophecy himself - and for now, anyway,
> not ready to be corrupted. Didn't Angel's act just shift it all onto
> Spike's shoulders? Why would W&H trade the prophecy from the vampire they
> control to the one they don't? Curiously, they don't seem worried about
> Spike.
>
> Sebassis: Spike is not the threat. You are.
I think we're meant to just take it for granted that Spike was a
distraction and that the SP were backing the right horse. (Or that
Angel has the power to sign the prophecy away for anyone to whom it
might refer.) Some people seem to be assuming as a given that the
prophecies pass on to Spike now. By Occam's razor, I say it's
unlikely. There's nothing to flat-out contradict it, but I see no
reason to make that assumption, other than really liking Spike. From
a storyteller's standpoint, Shanshu is and always has been about
Angel.
> One more possibility occurs to me. Shanshu was a sham all along. (And
> Angel getting hold of it was deliberate by W&H.) It was a long-term
> campaign to build up false hope - even dependency - and then take it away,
> as the means of recruiting a promising employee like Angel. His signing of
> the (fake) document would have been intended as the triumphant moment. By
> this scenario, W&H's rage at its failure and the consequences of it would
> make full sense.
That would make me happy (I'm not much for prophecies), but that
requires us to believe that Angel was inordinately special for reasons
unconnected with Shanshu. Which is kinda true, but the world of ATS
revolves completely enough around Angel as it is. The SP are really
willing to sacrifice a lot of resources for the sake of one potential
employee.
> The stated meaning of Shanshu at that signing party was hope. That's what
> Shanshu represented to Angel. The people at that meeting misunderstood the
> state of Angel's hope at the time, but I believe the idea of what it
> represented is supposed to be true.
>
> In a prior post I posited that absolution is what Angel hoped for. Or
> perhaps more poetically, the promise of heaven. However one wants to
> describe it, it seems to have always been tied into Angel's quest for
> redemption. Keeping that in mind, when Angel signed away the prophecy, he
> symbolically signed away the possibility for redemption. When no less than
> the devil hands him the pen to sign with blood, the symbolism is signing
> away the soul. This being Angel, it always had to be about the soul.
>
> And you say no one's giving up.
Basically where I disagree is that I'm not seeing Angel's actions in
PP/NFA as surrendering to a desire to kill things and die. If
anything, it's sublimating it toward another purpose. Looking at the
Shanshu again, it represents a hope, but a kind of hope that just
doesn't seem relevant after Angel focuses his attention on something
else. It's been tied into the quest for redemption, but Shanshu
itself isn't redemption - it's a reward that serves as a marker of
redemption. It's external validation. What Angel's done is lost
interest in getting a reward or a blue fairy to tell him that his work
is done; he's decided that the work doesn't end. Throw in the
appropriate aphorism here: it's all about the journey, or whatever.
I do like your notion of the signing, intended to be W&H's triumph,
being the thing that gives Angel an albitrossectomy.
> > WESLEY (and Eve):
>
> Oh, so you're a Wesley/Eve shipper. Didn't know those existed. <hee>
I'm sure that for any two characters that have ever appeared on the
same show, there's at least one 'shipper.
> > It might
> > be worth contrasting him with Eve, who apparently stays behind to die
> > after learning what Angel's done to Lindsey. She's quietly crushed
> > and can't see anything worth wanting either,
>
> It never occurred to me that she would stay to die. Hmmm. Maybe. I'd
> imagined her just living out a long lonely ruined life. Seems to fit
> Lorne's portent.
Maybe, but she doesn't show any intention of moving as the building
starts to shake and she's being told that we have to get out, now.
> Anyway, there's a small neat parallel with Fred here. Angel used Fred's
> terrible death as a weapon against the Black Thorn, thereby drawing value
> from tragedy. Now Angel sends Wesley to Vail with the pretense of betraying
> Angel - which Vail will believe because of Wesley's history. (Vail's part
> in the memory spell would make him intimately familiar with Wesley's
> history.) And so Wesley's greatest shame is put to use as a weapon, giving
> value to it. It's a small gift to Wesley. And I think he got it. There at
> least seemed to be mutual respect and affection in their final look at each
> other.
Ooh, that's really cool. This feels like one of those episodes where
both the main story and the side details and connections are clicking.
> > She did end up kinda
> > Anya-like after all at times, but with the power to channel her
> > sublimated desire to retaliate in as violent a manner as possible when
> > her authority is challenged.
>
> One can only imagine what might have happened with that character in S6.
> The Anya comparison is valid, but I think they did that story. They're
> creative people though - maybe they would have come up with another twist on
> that. My suspicion is that they were heading somewhere else. I think this
> was going to be another great exploration of what makes up humanity. With
> Angel and his soul we explored the function of a conscience or guilt. With
> Spike's chip we explored how much humanity is defined by one's deeds. They
> were offered as polar opposites, but as the story unfolded we saw both
> heavily influenced by their human memories. So with Illyria, the human
> element is memory.
Interesting idea. You know, I think I could've stood to see another
season or two.
> > I think Wesley's dying moments may have
> > gotten me closer to crying than anything in "A Hole In The World."
>
> It definitely did for me - and not just close. But a big reason for that is
> how it paralleled A Hole In The World. Fred dies in Wesley's arms. Now
> Wesley dies in Fred's arms. It's as beautiful as it is awful. Not sure
> about the meeting in heaven stuff though.
The heaven thing is a lie, just like the rest of it. At least that's
how I figure it; it makes the scene more poignant.
> > Rather than delve too much into Illyria's side of things,
> > I'd just like to focus on the moment when she *makes Vail's fucking
> > head explode*. Those are some thoroughly awesome milliseconds there,
> > with an eruption of goop worthy of _Street Trash_. So damn cool.
>
> Oh, yeah. I could feel that punch. Right there with her.
>
> And, wow, you know Street Trash. I don't know many people who do. It's
> kind of a personal favorite of mine. The funny thing is that I had just
> thought of it while watching The Girl In Question of all episodes. It was
> the keep away scene with the head that prompted it.
I was wondering if anyone would understand the reference, I wouldn't
have known ST either, though, if it hadn't been featured this past
January at a bad-movie festival that I go to every year. It was one
of those polarizing ones that people either loved or lost a little bit
of the will to live after seeing.
> You were mana from heaven.
I can't say I ever expected to have anyone tell me that. The Internet
is full of wonders.
-AOQ
Don Sample
"Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 9, 10:36 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
> > "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
> > messagenews:1173336470.5...@8g2000cwh.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > The Shanshu bit is very intriguing to me. I suspect that Bell & Whedon
> > were
> > playing rather fast and loose with W&H's thinking here because they were
> > after the impact upon Angel first and foremost. But - hey - they put it in
> > the story, so we get to ponder its implications all around.
>
> Thinking about this too much is giving me a headache, so I'll leave
> the speculations to the rest of you. Stay entertaining. Agreed that
> the key is the impact on Angel, logic be damned (that's very much ME's
> writing style), and I just basically feel like W&H's treatment of
> Angel doesn't make perfect sense in any case, but it can be fanwanked
> around.
I still think that the Shanshu prophecy was actually fulfilled in Season
1's "I'll Remember You," and Angel, being the big idiot that he is,
threw it away.
One Bit Shy
> On Mar 9, 10:36 pm, "One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote:
>> "Arbitrar Of Quality" <tsm...@wildmail.com> wrote in
>> messagenews:1173336470.5...@8g2000cwh.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> The Shanshu bit is very intriguing to me. I suspect that Bell & Whedon
>> were
>> playing rather fast and loose with W&H's thinking here because they were
>> after the impact upon Angel first and foremost. But - hey - they put it
>> in
>> the story, so we get to ponder its implications all around.
>
> Thinking about this too much is giving me a headache, so I'll leave
> the speculations to the rest of you. Stay entertaining. Agreed that
> the key is the impact on Angel, logic be damned (that's very much ME's
> writing style), and I just basically feel like W&H's treatment of
> Angel doesn't make perfect sense in any case, but it can be fanwanked
> around.
Well, the big elephant in this room is that there's no future to test the
theories against. Most everything suggested might have been what came to
be. And if Whedon were to pick up the story again he'd be perverse enough
to reveal that the Immortal had a soul all along (he was the one the Gypsies
invented the curse for) and he's been using both Angel and Spike to run
cover for him.
>> One more possibility occurs to me. Shanshu was a sham all along. (And
>> Angel getting hold of it was deliberate by W&H.) It was a long-term
>> campaign to build up false hope - even dependency - and then take it
>> away,
>> as the means of recruiting a promising employee like Angel. His signing
>> of
>> the (fake) document would have been intended as the triumphant moment.
>> By
>> this scenario, W&H's rage at its failure and the consequences of it would
>> make full sense.
>
> That would make me happy (I'm not much for prophecies), but that
> requires us to believe that Angel was inordinately special for reasons
> unconnected with Shanshu. Which is kinda true, but the world of ATS
> revolves completely enough around Angel as it is. The SP are really
> willing to sacrifice a lot of resources for the sake of one potential
> employee.
Jasmine found a pretty potent use for him. By this scenario, Angel would be
special as more than just a potential employee. I don't know precisely
what - one of those things for an untold future. But the Jasmine experience
suggests that an undead with a soul unlocks special magic and powers.
None the less, this is not my favored scenario. Just one of the intriguing
possibilities.
Well, we can debate that forever. It probably comes down to some slender
perceptions of his feelings that we'll never be able to validate. What you
describe above is the logical view of the situation - and where I think
Angel gets to eventually - at least emotionally. But I think Shanshu had a
stronger hold over him than that. It wasn't just a possible path to
redemption - it was *the* path in his mind. The only thing he knew that
offered that kind of hope. He pushed back against that hope many times, but
he could never let go of it. It was his holy grail. Myth... but what if it
isn't?
Last thing I want to say about that. There's no doubt that the final
message is about carrying on the fight. The same conclusion that he's
always ended up with. But in the past it was something he backed into as
all he could do. It maintained his integrity and had value to the extent
that he could fight on, but it never satisfied. Not just in the Shanshu
sense, which was personal, but in the sense of really mattering. To a
degree he was giving up then too - not being able to find a better way.
Going into this episode I saw the same process at work - just at a more
extravagent level. Including the giving up. It was all about finality.
One last big gesture. Maybe they can gum up the works some and set some
kind of example, but there really wasn't much hope expressed in it. A lot
more desperation and weariness with the battle.
Then move ahead a little to his conversation enlisting Lindsey - after he
signed away Shanshu. The message is similar, but the emphasis changed.
Angel: 'Cause it's not about us, Lindsey. It's about them. The wolf. The
ram. The hart. The ones we've been fighting against forever.
Lindsey: You can't beat 'em.
Angel: Maybe they're not there to be beat. Maybe they're there to be
fought. Maybe fighting them is what makes human beings so remarkably strong.
Lindsey: You're not talking about the kind of strength human beings have.
This is not about coveting your neighbor's ass, your buddy's job, the last
Mallomar in the box. You're talking about fighting flesh and something that
passes for blood demons with enormous power, and they will mow you down.
Angel: Maybe... but I keep thinking that once this world was theirs and now
it's not.
Angel doesn't say the fight is eternal because they can't be beat. He says
the eternal fight is the purpose, the thing that makes humans so strong.
And then he talks about how humans already took the world away from them.
These are words of hope, not just enduring. He discovers that his
instincts - his soul - were right all along. More deeply so than he had
imagined. I don't think he was able to truly comprehend this until he gave
up his false hope.
> I do like your notion of the signing, intended to be W&H's triumph,
> being the thing that gives Angel an albitrossectomy.
Hey. I like that word. Cool.
>> One can only imagine what might have happened with that character in S6.
>> The Anya comparison is valid, but I think they did that story. They're
>> creative people though - maybe they would have come up with another twist
>> on
>> that. My suspicion is that they were heading somewhere else. I think
>> this
>> was going to be another great exploration of what makes up humanity.
>> With
>> Angel and his soul we explored the function of a conscience or guilt.
>> With
>> Spike's chip we explored how much humanity is defined by one's deeds.
>> They
>> were offered as polar opposites, but as the story unfolded we saw both
>> heavily influenced by their human memories. So with Illyria, the human
>> element is memory.
>
> Interesting idea. You know, I think I could've stood to see another
> season or two.
I think the series could have handled a seven year run like BtVS.
>> And, wow, you know Street Trash. I don't know many people who do. It's
>> kind of a personal favorite of mine. The funny thing is that I had just
>> thought of it while watching The Girl In Question of all episodes. It
>> was
>> the keep away scene with the head that prompted it.
>
> I was wondering if anyone would understand the reference, I wouldn't
> have known ST either, though, if it hadn't been featured this past
> January at a bad-movie festival that I go to every year. It was one
> of those polarizing ones that people either loved or lost a little bit
> of the will to live after seeing.
The Toxic Avenger was the relatively popular flic from that sub-genre of the
time, but I think Street Trash was way better. There's even some good
acting in it. But it is -er- challenging. Did you ever see Liquid Sky?
Cheers,
OBS
Elisi
Me too. Another way of looking at it, is that it can be seen as Angel
just signing away the reward - not the actual prophecy. Which ties in
with something else - if he *did* come down on the side of evil and
help destroy the world, becoming human would not be a reward - it
would be a punishment. So - if he only signed away the 'becoming
human' bit, then it would free him to do whatever without worrying
about repercussions...
> > > WESLEY (and Eve):
>
> > Oh, so you're a Wesley/Eve shipper. Didn't know those existed. <hee>
>
> I'm sure that for any two characters that have ever appeared on the
> same show, there's at least one 'shipper.
You know there's Dawn/Ethan fic out there. What's almost worse is that
it's good and really hot.
I'll go now...
(Harmony) Watcher
that they did not own?
--
==Harmony Watcher==
(Harmony) Watcher
"mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges"
<mair_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mair_fheal-7BD41...@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
>
> his view of the future not as a single thread
> (though sometimes the future can be narrowed to one channel)
> but a vast field of possibilities driven by what we choose in the present
>
>
resist :)
--
==Harmony Watcher==
(Harmony) Watcher
"One Bit Shy" <O...@nomail.sorry> wrote in message
news:12v6621...@news.supernews.com...
included an element of atonement through doing good. But he also believed
that no matter what he did, he would never be able to atone for the amount
of damage he had caused as "Angelus". "Atonement through good deeds" was
rejected by Paul, and I heard that it was a contentious disagreement between
Paul and Peter on that very issue. The Christianity that we know of today
was entirely founded on Paul's viewpoint. Of course Paul was wrong, and so
was Peter.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> distraction and that the SP were backing the right horse. (Or that
> Angel has the power to sign the prophecy away for anyone to whom it
> might refer.) Some people seem to be assuming as a given that the
> prophecies pass on to Spike now. By Occam's razor, I say it's
> unlikely. There's nothing to flat-out contradict it, but I see no
> reason to make that assumption, other than really liking Spike. From
> a storyteller's standpoint, Shanshu is and always has been about
> Angel.
depends if a prophecy is a active force altering destinies
or a passive recording of an inevitable event
it could be that it always refered to spike and only spike
and angel never had anything to do with it
now they know how willow or others can reensoul more vampires
and apopcalypse may actually refer to theresa the bleedy
and the arrival of the terpian fang beasts in march 3012
> anything, it's sublimating it toward another purpose. Looking at the
> Shanshu again, it represents a hope, but a kind of hope that just
> doesn't seem relevant after Angel focuses his attention on something
> else. It's been tied into the quest for redemption, but Shanshu
> itself isn't redemption - it's a reward that serves as a marker of
> redemption. It's external validation. What Angel's done is lost
given liams christian upbringing
angel would see shanshu as a possible second chance to escape hell
as dead boy he remains damned on merely temporary furlough from hell
but if he lives again then pausibly the rules give him second chance
> > Oh, so you're a Wesley/Eve shipper. Didn't know those existed. <hee>
>
> I'm sure that for any two characters that have ever appeared on the
> same show, there's at least one 'shipper.
larry and xander sitting in a tree
k-i-s-
> > > be worth contrasting him with Eve, who apparently stays behind to die
> > > after learning what Angel's done to Lindsey. She's quietly crushed
> > > and can't see anything worth wanting either,
> >
> > It never occurred to me that she would stay to die. Hmmm. Maybe. I'd
> > imagined her just living out a long lonely ruined life. Seems to fit
> > Lorne's portent.
>
> Maybe, but she doesn't show any intention of moving as the building
> starts to shake and she's being told that we have to get out, now.
eves dead
emotionally shes already gone
whether her body continues more years or not
> > how it paralleled A Hole In The World. Fred dies in Wesley's arms. Now
> > Wesley dies in Fred's arms. It's as beautiful as it is awful. Not sure
> > about the meeting in heaven stuff though.
>
> The heaven thing is a lie, just like the rest of it. At least that's
> how I figure it; it makes the scene more poignant.
fred is not just dead - shes gone
wesley might end up in a heaven the way a certain slayer did
healed of all his sorrows and pains
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> special as more than just a potential employee. I don't know precisely
> what - one of those things for an untold future. But the Jasmine experience
> suggests that an undead with a soul unlocks special magic and powers.
first evil had a special thing for vampires with souls
that was never really explained
jasmine could be explained that angel was threat to cordelia and her baby
but angelus was a distraction for the rest away from the pregnancy
> Angel: 'Cause it's not about us, Lindsey. It's about them. The wolf. The
> ram. The hart. The ones we've been fighting against forever.
> Lindsey: You can't beat 'em.
i dont like that
we know that wrh were once only little more powerful than angel
and they have gone strong as parasites on humans
i dont see any reason within the story
they couldnt dethrone wrh or even destroy them
heck theyve done theocide before and wrh are mere demons
wrh are not the cause of human evil
the cause is human free choice and power to choose poorly
thats what you cant beat without fundamentally changing what it means to be human
i would like to see wrh destroyed
and then face that humans are still the source of all their own problems
(in real life maybe there really is a satan and he makes us do all that
but i see -the devil made me do it- or -it is the will of allah- as excuses
people not willing to take responsibility for their own evil
and trying to shift the blame on an outside agency
nearly all the misery humans endure is inflicted by other humans)
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> included an element of atonement through doing good. But he also believed
> that no matter what he did, he would never be able to atone for the amount
> of damage he had caused as "Angelus". "Atonement through good deeds" was
> rejected by Paul, and I heard that it was a contentious disagreement between
the argument was whether gentiles had to become jews first
to be circumcized and oney the law of moses
> Paul and Peter on that very issue. The Christianity that we know of today
> was entirely founded on Paul's viewpoint. Of course Paul was wrong, and so
> was Peter.
they were both right
(Harmony) Watcher
> > Yes, it is fairly clear from the show that Angel's view of "Shanshu"
> > included an element of atonement through doing good. But he also
believed
> > that no matter what he did, he would never be able to atone for the
amount
> > of damage he had caused as "Angelus". "Atonement through good deeds" was
> > rejected by Paul, and I heard that it was a contentious disagreement
between
>
> the argument was whether gentiles had to become jews first
> to be circumcized and oney the law of moses
>
>
apparent contradiction to the chronologically later Pauline doctrine of
"salvation by faith alone" (despite silly rationalization attempts through
wordplay by theologians to try explaining away the contradiction.
The Epistle of James[1]
14 What doth is profit, my brethren, though a man
say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith
save him?
...
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead,
being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have
works; show me thy faith without thy works, and I
will show thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest
well. The demons also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith
without works is dead?
...
24 Ye see, then, that by works a man is justified,
and not by faith only.
...
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so
faith without works is dead also.
In the context of AtS, Angel believed that faith in the Shanshu prophecy
alone was not enough, that he must do "enough" good deeds. He wanted to do
as many good deeds as he could to atone for his past sins. If it were around
45 A.D., James would have applauded him but reminded him to accept JC first,
while Paul would have told him that accepting JC will suffice.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
[1]The New Scofield Reference Bible, Authorized
King James Version. 1967 Oxford University Press
One Bit Shy
>> Jasmine found a pretty potent use for him. By this scenario, Angel would
>> be
>> special as more than just a potential employee. I don't know precisely
>> what - one of those things for an untold future. But the Jasmine
>> experience
>> suggests that an undead with a soul unlocks special magic and powers.
>
> first evil had a special thing for vampires with souls
> that was never really explained
>
> jasmine could be explained that angel was threat to cordelia and her baby
> but angelus was a distraction for the rest away from the pregnancy
Heh. I actually forgot about Jasmine persistently keeping Angel around,
though I suppose it further supports the idea. I was thinking instead of
Angel fathering Connor - the magical creation that wasn't supposed to be
possible.
>> Angel: 'Cause it's not about us, Lindsey. It's about them. The wolf. The
>> ram. The hart. The ones we've been fighting against forever.
>> Lindsey: You can't beat 'em.
>
> i dont like that
> we know that wrh were once only little more powerful than angel
> and they have gone strong as parasites on humans
>
> i dont see any reason within the story
> they couldnt dethrone wrh or even destroy them
> heck theyve done theocide before and wrh are mere demons
>
> wrh are not the cause of human evil
> the cause is human free choice and power to choose poorly
> thats what you cant beat without fundamentally changing what it means to
> be human
>
> i would like to see wrh destroyed
> and then face that humans are still the source of all their own problems
>
> (in real life maybe there really is a satan and he makes us do all that
> but i see -the devil made me do it- or -it is the will of allah- as
> excuses
> people not willing to take responsibility for their own evil
> and trying to shift the blame on an outside agency
>
> nearly all the misery humans endure is inflicted by other humans)
Jasmine's story of the Old Ones could be interpreted as evil (and maybe good
too) being introduced to their world by humans.
Her brief remarks could be taken other ways too - and I'm not sure how much
to believe what she said anyway. I only mention it to point out how canon
is vague enough to allow for various world views.
Setting that aside. What you describe is, I think, largely what Joss and
company were going for. The distinction is that, in keeping with the
Buffyverse tradition, the metaphoric demons within man are physically
manifested as real deadly creatures.
In this case they are made inaccessible - unable to be attacked directly -
by moving them to a different plane. The construct is similar to The First.
But The First was intangible by nature, while the Wolf, Ram & Hart are
artificially disconnected.
Angel might very well be able to destroy them - if he could get to them.
His approach in Reprise may have been more threatening to them than Holland
let on. Holland pointing to the evil within us all, while true as far as it
goes, likely also served to distract Angel from directly assaulting those
demons. Angel's remarks this episode suggest that he has revised his
thinking. "Once this world was theirs and now it's not." If they could be
beaten before, why can't they be beaten again?
I think the point of removing the demons to another plane is to twist the
metaphor - in a sense to deny it. Fighting the external demon (or Satan) is
futile (meaningless) because the real evil is within ourselves. It could be
taken as another denial of the trappings of religion (Satan battling with
God for the souls of mankind) while retaining the core truth that we still
are in a constant battle between good and evil within ourselves.
It makes the metaphor kind of elusive. It's real. It's not real. The
battle is within, but we still fight it outside. Difficult to get ahold of.
But I think that itself is reflective of man's own confusion about the
issue. W&H (Satan) is as real as man makes it. As powerful as man makes
it. They can be puny, as Illyria remembers them, or apocalyptic, as they
now boast. It's up to us which.
That makes for something rather similar to The First. Mostly better
expressed, easier to understand. But I think that The First personalized it
better. I think that BtVS made the moral choice matter more than AtS too.
It's funny, considering how obsessed Angel is with atonement, but that
doesn't seem to actually matter as much in AtS as it does in BtVS. In AtS,
it's just carrying on the fight, even though one keeps blundering onto the
wrong side and causing untold havoc. (Hey. Maybe AtS is secretly a
pacifist message. That'd be a hoot.)
OBS
One Bit Shy
I hadn't thought of that before. That really emphasizes it as representing
the promise of heaven since it offers hell too. No wonder Angel was
convinced it required redemptive acts.
>> > > WESLEY (and Eve):
>>
>> > Oh, so you're a Wesley/Eve shipper. Didn't know those existed. <hee>
>>
>> I'm sure that for any two characters that have ever appeared on the
>> same show, there's at least one 'shipper.
>
> You know there's Dawn/Ethan fic out there. What's almost worse is that
> it's good and really hot.
OK, I'll bite. Where can I find that?
OBS
(Harmony) Watcher
<chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu> wrote in message
news:12v3ikl...@corp.supernews.com...
> In alt.tv.angel Elisi <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > That's it. And now I'll quote from a (very, very long) interview with
> > David Fury (http://www.mikejozic.com/buffyweek6.html):
> >
> > FURY: The really cool thing about Season 6, we knew how Season 5 was
> > going to end very early on and we knew what it was going to launch
> > into with Season 6, which was a post-apocalyptic show [and] which I
> > thought was going to be great. It was going to be Angel in The Road
> > Warrior, which I thought would be awesome. In the ruined city of LA or
> > out in the desert or something, it was just going to be kind of a
> > really cool, different, show.
>
> Thanks for posting that, Ellisi. (I had read this interview before but
> totally forgot about that part.) After reading that quote, my first
> reaction is that it puts an entirely different spin on NFA -- Angel
> *caused* the Apocalypse! His heroic blow against evil turns out to be not
> futile, but actually disastrous. So I wonder, under this plan, was the
> apocalypse supposed to be happening anyway, and Angel's attack on the
> Black Thorn didn't cause it? Or was the idea to give season 6 Angel one
> more thing to atone for?
>
>
I'm glad David Fury's remark quoted above confirms my suspicions. At the end
of AtS S5, Angel induced an event of Biblical proportions.
Angel was already of the opinion that no matter what he did, he could never
have done enough to atone for what he did as "Angelus". I'm still saying
that at the end of the series, he was doing something that Angelus himself
would be proud of even though they did it for different reasons--Angelus
would like to destroy the world including himself for silly sadistic
reasons, and Angel was willing to sacrifice himself and his friends and
possibly at least LA because he lost all hope and went nuts after the Black
Thorn.
For me, if there were any more good deeds that Angel could do in AtS S6 to
atone for this round of sins, it would be a mockery to the meaning of
atonement.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
Elisi
> "Elisi" <elis...@gmail.com> wrote in message
I've only read one myself, and of course I can't find it anymore.
_But_ I've heard an awful lot of good things about nwhepcat's 'Kindred
Spirits', that I'd read if I could only find the time... (it's very,
very long and not finished yet, but apparently extremely addictive. I
hope you enjoy!)
http://www.livejournal.com/tools/memories.bml?keyword=dawn%2Fethan&user=nwhepcat&sortby=des
Don Sample
"\(Harmony\) Watcher" <nob...@nonesuch.com> wrote:
> <chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu> wrote in message
> news:12v3ikl...@corp.supernews.com...
> > In alt.tv.angel Elisi <eli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > That's it. And now I'll quote from a (very, very long) interview with
> > > David Fury (http://www.mikejozic.com/buffyweek6.html):
> > >
> > > FURY: The really cool thing about Season 6, we knew how Season 5 was
> > > going to end very early on and we knew what it was going to launch
> > > into with Season 6, which was a post-apocalyptic show [and] which I
> > > thought was going to be great. It was going to be Angel in The Road
> > > Warrior, which I thought would be awesome. In the ruined city of LA or
> > > out in the desert or something, it was just going to be kind of a
> > > really cool, different, show.
> >
> > Thanks for posting that, Ellisi. (I had read this interview before but
> > totally forgot about that part.) After reading that quote, my first
> > reaction is that it puts an entirely different spin on NFA -- Angel
> > *caused* the Apocalypse! His heroic blow against evil turns out to be not
> > futile, but actually disastrous. So I wonder, under this plan, was the
> > apocalypse supposed to be happening anyway, and Angel's attack on the
> > Black Thorn didn't cause it? Or was the idea to give season 6 Angel one
> > more thing to atone for?
> >
> >
> How does one atone for causing yet another round of massive suffering?
>
> I'm glad David Fury's remark quoted above confirms my suspicions. At the end
> of AtS S5, Angel induced an event of Biblical proportions.
And we're supposed to think of this as a "win"? What would a loss look
like?
(Personally I think that you should take anything any of the ME writers
had to say about future plots with a very large grain of salt. Like
Joss, they all like to lie.)
(Harmony) Watcher
Hopefully the the upcoming Buffyverse canon--the comics, that is--would shed
some light on what happened to LA, unless they keep spinning it and spinning
it out of control like the X-Files.
--
==Harmony Watcher==
Elisi
>
> - Show quoted text -
OK, so I just kinda devoured the first 10 chapters, and yes, it really
_is_ very, very good. (Which is annoying because now I want to keep
reading and I can't. Bother.) Oh and I've almost finished some
thoughts on Spike in S5 (if you remember that discussion?) I'm hoping
to have them ready tomorrow... *crosses fingers*
Elisi
> <chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu> wrote in message
>
> news:12v3ikl...@corp.supernews.com...
>
Well Angel _is_ Angelus, and S5 shows him trying to integrate his two
halves.
> For me, if there were any more good deeds that Angel could do in AtS S6 to
> atone for this round of sins, it would be a mockery to the meaning of
> atonement.
Giles: To forgive is an act of compassion, Buffy. It's, it's not
done
because people deserve it. It's done because they need it.
Michael Ikeda
news:RD_Ih.10679$zU1.8236@pd7urf1no:
>>
> You're right that writers could lie or put out apocryphal
> accounts. Hopefully the the upcoming Buffyverse canon--the
> comics, that is--would shed some light on what happened to LA,
> unless they keep spinning it and spinning it out of control like
> the X-Files.
If I'm interpreting the hints correctly, at least some of the Buffy
S8 comics are set post-NFA so they should at least give some clues to
the general state of the world.
Some of the recent Angel comics are also set post-NFA, but I'm not
sure whether Joss considers them canon.
--
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
jil...@hotmail.com
her body sired. Groo also was a human born of demons, just like
Conner. Cordy managed to evade that by taking action both not to get
pregnant and to have her seer power taken.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> Personally I would pity Buffy for the rest of her life if she ever
> ended up with Angel, because she'd probably end up destroying every
> fantasy she ever had about Angel and they wouldn't ever talk again or
> kill eachother in less than a month.
As I said earlier, I have strong doubts that *either* Angel or Spike is
really the right guy for Buffy. I personally just like Angel better. So
if I was going to reward anyone with cookie dough, it would be him.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> (Of course that also means that Spike/Angel is the only pairing to
> survive the end of the show - except for Willow/Kennedy - which makes
> me very happy!)
Well, Faith/Robin is at least a possibility. They had a, umm, date
planned if they both survived the battle in Chosen.
chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu
> The Council of Watchers could have reconstituted with or without Giles
> involvement, as long as they still had money. A stuffy organization with a
> stuffy mentality would not change overnight by just an explosion. If
> anything, they could easily find an excuse to blame Buffy's group for the
> mishap.
>
> My two cents worth, but in my view, having more antagonists for the heroes
> generate more interesting stories.
My problem with the law of maximum mayhem is that it can actually make
things too simple, if it reduces everything to just "Buffy and friends
against the world." There should be more variety: ordinary bad guys, bad
guys with good reasons for what they do, good guys with a different agenda
from Buffy's, good guys who are currently seeming bad, bad guys who form
tactical alliances with some of the good guys, pointless personal
conflicts among the good guys, etc. So here's my suggestion: they could
have *two* competing Watcher's Councils, one formed by Giles and watching
Buffy's Slayers, the other formed by survivors in England and watching
Slayers they find scattered around the world. Buffy would then have the
dilemma of whether to take Giles' side against the other Council, or try
to amalgamate the two. And just to make things fun, the other Council
could be headed by someone who's very different from Giles, but who is in
his own way an equally good Watcher, and the two of them absolutely hate
each other. That's the kind of situation that I think would offer a lot
of potential for interesting stories.
BTW, I have kept myself mostly spoiler-free for the season 8 comics; so
if anyone wants to mention something coming up in the comics, please use
rot13!
Michael Ikeda
news:12vbo0t...@corp.supernews.com:
>
> BTW, I have kept myself mostly spoiler-free for the season 8
> comics; so if anyone wants to mention something coming up in the
> comics, please use rot13!
>
So we shouldn't tell you about the torrid affair Buffy has with a
resurrected Snyder...
:)
Mel
I think it's the other way around. Groo, and sending Cordy to Pylea in
the first place, was the PTBs attempt to rid Cordy of the visions so she
would no longer appeal to Jasmine as a vessel. Remember, if Cordy
doesn't have the visions, there's no need to demonize (aka Jasminize)
her. When it didn't work in Pylea, the Powers brought Groo back for one
last shot.
Mel
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Michael Ikeda <mmi...@erols.com> wrote:
> chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote in
> news:12vbo0t...@corp.supernews.com:
>
> >
> > BTW, I have kept myself mostly spoiler-free for the season 8
> > comics; so if anyone wants to mention something coming up in the
> > comics, please use rot13!
> >
>
> So we shouldn't tell you about the torrid affair Buffy has with a
> resurrected Snyder...
i thought she was going to get professional help
to get over her yearnings for the morally ambiguous
Rowan Hawthorn
> chr...@removethistoreply.gwu.edu wrote in
> news:12vbo0t...@corp.supernews.com:
>
>> BTW, I have kept myself mostly spoiler-free for the season 8
>> comics; so if anyone wants to mention something coming up in the
>> comics, please use rot13!
>>
>
> So we shouldn't tell you about the torrid affair Buffy has with a
> resurrected Snyder...
>
<runs screaming into the night, clawing at eyes with garden fork...>
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Arbitrar Of Quality
What about Ethan/Amy? They have some things in common.
-AOQ
Elisi
Pfft! That's nothing. _Apparently_ *someone* wrote Buffy/mummyhand
fic. I know people who are still traumatised....
Paul Hyett
>
>> (Of course that also means that Spike/Angel is the only pairing to
>> survive the end of the show - except for Willow/Kennedy - which makes
>> me very happy!)
>
>Well, Faith/Robin is at least a possibility. They had a, umm, date
>planned if they both survived the battle in Chosen.
If they had a daughter, would they be a super-slayer, given they'd have
double-dose of slayer genes...?
--
Paul 'Charts Fan' Hyett
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
Paul Hyett <p...@nojunkmailplease.co.uk> wrote:
werent slayer jeans on sale at the mall?
ive seen things you people wouldnt believe
rabid shoppers on frenzy at the sunnydale mall
i watched teenagers titter in the aisles at neiman marcus
all those moments will be lost in a sinkhole like florida property values
time to diet
Elisi
> In alt.tv.angel lilia...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Personally I would pity Buffy for the rest of her life if she ever
> > ended up with Angel, because she'd probably end up destroying every
> > fantasy she ever had about Angel and they wouldn't ever talk again or
> > kill eachother in less than a month.
>
> As I said earlier, I have strong doubts that *either* Angel or Spike is
> really the right guy for Buffy. I personally just like Angel better. So
> if I was going to reward anyone with cookie dough, it would be him.
Ah, now I get that. But I just don't think it would work out and
sooner or later they'd split up for good, all their dreams and
illusions in tatters - and that would be sad.
As for Buffy herself, then I think that of all the men on the show,
Spike is by far her best match. Sure they'd argue like crazy and throw
furniture at each other now and again, but then they'd have amazing
make-up sex and settle down to watch 'American Idol' or 'Lost' or
something like that. For Buffy's sake, I'd want her with Spike.
But that would of course leave Angel all alone, and since I adore
Angel I don't want that. Which is why the only logical conclusion is
to get them all together. Which is why I no longer have an OTP, but an
OT3! :)
Rowan Hawthorn
Heh. Yeah, but think of the advantages there: don't have to look at
Snyder, don't have to *listen* to Snyder, don't have to take matters
into her *own* hands...
Rowan Hawthorn
You know, I could actually see that pairing. Both have a touch of the
Trickster in their Evil-doings, both have a personal connection to the
Slayer's gang, and apparently each not only feels *rejected* by that
person, they also have a strange sort of self-righteous attitude
regarding them. A match made in - well, one of the hell-dimensions...
Elisi
> show - "well, personally, I kind of want to slay the dragon" - is
> about as purely Angel as one can get, and very much the character he's
> become over the course of his show rather than the one he started as.
Thanks to yhlee's vid 'Have You Heard' (http://pegasus.cityofveils.com/
ey/) I noticed something I'd never seen before... on the Shashu
prophecy there's a drawing of a dragon! See for yourselves:
http://www.buffyworld.com/angel/season5/screencaps/notfadeaway/index/notfadeaway0124.php
Angel *so* unleashed The Apocalypse!