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Cut Scenes from Carpe Noctem Script

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SWeick

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17 Oct 2001, 20:22:0117/10/2001
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OK, let's look at some of the script
stuff of interest from Carpe Noctem:

INT. HEALTH CLUB - NIGHT
Cor and Angel enter. Sleek and expensive. Young
beauties of both genders work out.
CORDELIA
I'm not gonna keep harping on this --
ANGEL
Yes you are.
CORDELIA
You can't just keep ignoring Fred.
You have to speak to her. There's
your business life and your social life.
And everybody knows you keep those
two things sep--
A cute, toned GOOD-LOOKING GUY (not a muscle man)
who's warming up catches her eye.

CORDELIA (cont'd)
I'm gonna see if he knows anything.


(So I guess Groo's muscles aren't what caught Cordy's eye.
And these guys aren't "muscle man" types, thus not gay?)


FAKE ANGEL (cont'd)
Cordelia..?
(she looks over, bingo)
Have I ever told you you're a
very beautiful woman?
(stares at him, deadpan)
It's your eyes, I just get so lost in 'em.

(OK, so he's evil, but he has taste. The last part did
need to be cut, cause Marcus/Angel was right.)


And now for the two scenes that were cut. I do not
regret that they cut them due to the complaints about
the Damn Daddies. But they are interesting none the
less. But not really telling us anything about Marcus
we couldn't have figured out on our own.

JACKSON
(to baby)
This is Katrina, my new baby
granddaughter. Girl's gonna rule
the world. Isn't she somethin'?

Old Angel glances back at the door, then down
at the baby in his arms. BABY looks up at him,
maybe coos, pure innocence. Old Angel momentarily
forgets his dilemma.

OLD ANGEL
She's ... beautiful.

FEMALE VOICE (O.S.)
Someone get a doctor...

Everyone turns to see: MADELINE. Mid-30's. Arms folded.

MADELINE
I might just faint from the shock.
(to Jackson's family)
Sorry, it's just he never bothered to
hold any of his own children.

Everyone's embarrassed. Jackson takes the baby.

JACKSON
Well, we'll let you two catch up.

Jackson's family move off as Madeline moves up to Old Angel.

MADELINE
My therapist said I should write
you a letter. And I started to, but
then I thought, no, I should say
this in person.

Old Angel looks past her: the Guard's still not back at
his desk yet. Old Angel moves toward the exit.

OLD ANGEL
Look, I can't talk to you right now.

MADELINE
Oh no? Gee, this is familiar. Me
needing you, you running off.

She steps in front of him. Blocking his escape.

MADELINE (cont'd)
To Malaysia. Tehran. Any Godforsaken
place that might have a powder or trinket
to keep you young. Guess what, you're
not young anymore.

OLD ANGEL
This isn't a great time ... I'm sure
I did bad things -- and I'm sorry --

MADELINE
You're sorry... he was never there for
me or my brothers, he was too busy
sleeping with every woman who wasn't
Mom -- but he's sorry! I guess we can
hug and go on Oprah now!

Heads turn, she's attracting attention.

OLD ANGEL
Alright, take it easy. What do you
want to say?

MADELINE
(beat)
When I was a little girl I just, I loved
you so much. And when you missed
my birthdays and my first communion
and well, basically my whole life, I
made excuses. Because I couldn't
believe that my own father was
incapable of loving anyone other
than himself. And it hurt me. A lot.
(beat)
If you have something you want to
say, now would be the time.

OLD ANGEL
(beat)
I, uh --

MADELINE
I don't know why I'm here. This
isn't... I should've just written
the letter. You know your doctor
called to tell me about your heart.
(off his look)
She thought I'd care that time was...
limited. You don't have a weak heart,
you don't have a heart at all.

She leaves in tears. Old Angel starts after her,
but stops as she brushes past the guard who's back
at his post. No escape that way.


OTOH, this part works:

INT. RETIREMENT HOME - BACK HALLWAY - DAY

Jackson leads Old Angel down the darkened corridor.

JACKSON
I don't think this is such a good
ideal Marcus.

OLD ANGEL
Just help me get out of here, please.

JACKSON
You do this to me every month.
I tell you how to slip out the cellar
door, you tell me you can't remember
where it is. You're gonna get me in trouble.

Jackson sighs, moves on.

JACKSON (cont'd)
So that was your daughter, huh? How
long's it been since you'd seen her?

OLD ANGEL
Um, pretty long, I think.

JACKSON
It's none of my concern but,
that girl's hurtin'. And life's short.
You oughta straighten that business out.

Old Angel stops. Leans back against the wall. Something's
wrong. His face is clammy and cold. Jackson still in front.

OLD ANGEL
Get help.

JACKSON
That's what I'm sayin'. Maybe see a
counselor or--
(realizes)
Marcus, what's wrong?

OLD ANGEL
My heart just stopped beating.


Old Angel slides to the floor.

JACKSON
Help! We need help here!


But again with this one...


INT. RETIREMENT HOME NURSES STATION - NIGHT

No one's on duty. Old Angel silently goes to the
file cabinet. Opens a drawer. Flips through the
files. Finds the one he's looking for:
MARCUS ROSCOE. Pulls it out.

INT. HOME - NIGHT - A TV Tuned to some n.d. home
shopping channel. Madeline, alone in her bedroom,
smoking and watching the tube. The phone rings.
She glances at it, exhales her smoke and answers.

MADELINE
Hello?

OLD ANGEL
(ON PHONE)
It's me. Don't hang up.

She doesn't. But she doesn't say anything either.

INTERCUT WITH: OLD ANGEL - AT THE NURSES STATION

Old Angel speaks quietly into the phone.

OLD ANGEL
Did I wake you?

MADELINE
What do you think? It's after midnight.

OLD ANGEL
Sorry. -- But I've been thinking about what
you said. And I think we need to talk.

Madeline stubs out her cigarette. After a beat.

MADELINE
I'm listening.

OLD ANGEL
Not on the phone. Can you come here right now?
(glances around)
I thought maybe we could go out for coffee
or something.

MADELINE
(beat)
You need me?

OLD ANGEL
Yes.

MADELINE
'Cause they won't let you out on your own.

OLD ANGEL
No--

MADELINE
Go to hell.

Madeline hangs up the phone.

Off Old Angel, alone:

<snipped>

RETIREMENT HOME - LOBBY - NIGHT

Old Angel moves up to Madeline.

MADELINE
I'm not sure why I'm here. Did you
really wanna talk to me?

OLD ANGEL
Yes.

Beat.

MADELINE
Well, what did you want to
talk about?

OLD ANGEL
Forgiveness.

Beat. She smiles -- it's not a warm smile.

MADELINE
Forgiveness.

OLD ANGEL
All the things I did and worse, failed to
do for you I don't see how I can ever make
up for them this late in the game.

MADELINE
No, you can't. But now that you're old and dying,
I'm supposed to forgive you!

OLD ANGEL
No. Not me. You have to forgive yourself.

MADELINE
This is some crap that

OLD ANGEL
This is the last time I'm ever gonna ask you to
so please listen to me. I'm not your father. Not
in any real sense and you have every right to
cut me out of your life. You need to. But I know
from experience nobody's ever gonna believe that.
They'll tell you no matter what, I'm your father
and that we have a bond. And on some level, you'll
believe them.

MADELINE
The thought of you trying to psychoanalyze

She's seething but it's getting through to her. He interrupts:

OLD ANGEL
On some level, you'll think there's something wrong.
With you. Something wrong in you that I didn't love
you more, treat you better. Something wrong that
you're able to cut me out of your life. That ain't
the case. You said I don't have a heart, but I
know you do. I know how much you feel, how much
you love. You need a family and you'll make one,
I know. I'm not a part of that. I don't wanna be.

She starts to tear up. And laugh a little at the
same time.


OLD ANGEL
(cont'd)
What?

MADELINE
It's just, I've been trying so hard all these years
to forget you and now you're saying...

OLD ANGEL
... you should.

She lets the tears flow -- these aren't sobs, just
honest sorrow at the truth of his words. She nods,
gets up to go.

MADELINE
Bye, Dad.

He watches her go.


Now the good point of the subplot is to give some
emotional depth to the comedy. But I don't think
it really adds much. Yeah, to the theme of forgiveness
it claims we need to forgive ourselves, but what else?


Stephen Weick | Simply stated, it is sagacious to eschew obfuscation.

Angel: "She loves me, too, right?"
"As a friend and co-worker."
"Maybe love is too strong a term."

Cordy: "Trust me. Tacos everywhere - and - soap!"

Sarah Trombley

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17 Oct 2001, 21:35:2917/10/2001
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In article <20011017202201...@mb-fz.aol.com>,

SWeick <swe...@aol.com> wrote:
>OK, let's look at some of the script
>stuff of interest from Carpe Noctem:
>
>INT. HEALTH CLUB - NIGHT
> Cor and Angel enter. Sleek and expensive. Young
> beauties of both genders work out.
> CORDELIA
> I'm not gonna keep harping on this --
> ANGEL
> Yes you are.
> CORDELIA
> You can't just keep ignoring Fred.
> You have to speak to her. There's
> your business life and your social life.
> And everybody knows you keep those
> two things sep--
> A cute, toned GOOD-LOOKING GUY (not a muscle man)
> who's warming up catches her eye.
>
> CORDELIA (cont'd)
> I'm gonna see if he knows anything.
>
>
>(So I guess Groo's muscles aren't what caught Cordy's eye.
>And these guys aren't "muscle man" types, thus not gay?)

Ha! I bet they put that in on purpose.

>Now the good point of the subplot is to give some
>emotional depth to the comedy. But I don't think
>it really adds much. Yeah, to the theme of forgiveness
>it claims we need to forgive ourselves, but what else?

Well...there is the whole thing about Angel's unresolved anger at this
own father. Is this supposed to be a sign he's getting past it or
something?


--Sarah T.

SWeick

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17 Oct 2001, 22:18:3517/10/2001
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trom...@is08.fas.harvard.edu (Sarah Trombley) wrote:


To at least tell casting not to put in a pumped up Ahhrnoold type?


>>Now the good point of the subplot is to give some
>>emotional depth to the comedy. But I don't think
>>it really adds much. Yeah, to the theme of forgiveness
>>it claims we need to forgive ourselves, but what else?
>
>Well...there is the whole thing about Angel's unresolved anger at this
>own father. Is this supposed to be a sign he's getting past it or
>something?

Telling the child that the father isn't really the father? Nope,
that looks like even deeper father issues there.

Best to save all the Damn Daddy fire for when English Sr. comes
a'calling.

SDM

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18 Oct 2001, 13:46:4718/10/2001
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In article <20011017221835...@mb-fk.aol.com>,
swe...@aol.com (SWeick) wrote:


>
> Telling the child that the father isn't really the father? Nope,
> that looks like even deeper father issues there.
>
> Best to save all the Damn Daddy fire for when English Sr. comes
> a'calling.
>
>

Recognizing it'll never happen, planning on being disappointed, but I
would so like English Sr. to be a nice guy who dedicated his life to his
obnoxious son, only to be repaid by being ostracized by his peers when
Jr.'s arrogant incompetence as a Watcher shames him in front of the
Council. Just once I'd like Dad to be the wronged one; let him do the
forgiving this time.

Steve

Shanna

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18 Oct 2001, 14:45:1818/10/2001
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SDM wrote:

>Recognizing it'll never happen, planning on being disappointed, but I
>would so like English Sr. to be a nice guy who dedicated his life to his
>obnoxious son, only to be repaid by being ostracized by his peers when
>Jr.'s arrogant incompetence as a Watcher shames him in front of the
>Council. Just once I'd like Dad to be the wronged one; let him do the
>forgiving this time.

They've laid too much groundwork for this to turn out to be the case. I don't
think a "nice guy who dedicated his life to his obnoxious son" would have
locked his kid under the stairs as a form of punishment or would so cruelly
take the wind out of his grown son's sails when that son calls him to wish him
happy birthday and pass on some good news. It's a bit too late for any kind of
retcon like that for English, Sr.

But I do think that Liam's father should be a nice guy who dedicated his life
to his obnoxious son. I don't think we've seen anything from him that could be
taken as abuse, considering we saw him dealing with a 26-year-old good for
nothing. It would be different if he'd been treating a child that way, but an
adult acting the way Liam did deserves what he got from his father.

Shanna

SDM

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18 Oct 2001, 17:48:1618/10/2001
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In article <20011018144518...@mb-bj.aol.com>,
shan...@aol.com (Shanna) wrote:

> SDM wrote:
>
> >Recognizing it'll never happen, planning on being disappointed, but I
> >would so like English Sr. to be a nice guy who dedicated his life to his
> >obnoxious son, only to be repaid by being ostracized by his peers when
> >Jr.'s arrogant incompetence as a Watcher shames him in front of the
> >Council. Just once I'd like Dad to be the wronged one; let him do the
> >forgiving this time.
>
> They've laid too much groundwork for this to turn out to be the case. I don't
> think a "nice guy who dedicated his life to his obnoxious son" would have
> locked his kid under the stairs as a form of punishment or would so cruelly
> take the wind out of his grown son's sails when that son calls him to wish him
> happy birthday and pass on some good news. It's a bit too late for any kind of
> retcon like that for English, Sr.
>

I know. The locking under the stair would have to be undermined in some
fashion, and that's not going to happen. The phone call, on the other
hand, would go perfectly with a man who hasn't gotten past the
bitterness over what Wesley's behavior cost him. At the time, it would
have been right around a year, which isn't unheard of in family circles.
But you're right, it really is too late. OTOH, English, Sr. being a
nice guy seems a gimme besides Good Spike and Pregnant Darla.

> But I do think that Liam's father should be a nice guy who dedicated his life
> to his obnoxious son. I don't think we've seen anything from him that could be
> taken as abuse, considering we saw him dealing with a 26-year-old good for
> nothing. It would be different if he'd been treating a child that way, but an
> adult acting the way Liam did deserves what he got from his father.
>

I agree; Liam's father was a much better candidate, and we did get a
little bit in The Prodigal to indicate that he wasn't unjustified,
particularly on Liam's (first) exit line. I think I remember a TM
interview in which he expounded on the relationship a bit, but I don't
remember where. In any case, his story's over, so he's out of the
running.

Let's see. Gunn's dad? I get the impression Gunn still lives in the
old neighborhood, so no mention of his folks seems odd. Fred's been
back 4 months and no mention, so ditto. No close family relationship in
evidence there. Best we can hope for there is dead, I think. So you
can see why I may seem desperate with ES.

Steve

Shanna

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18 Oct 2001, 23:23:5218/10/2001
to
SDM wrote:

>Let's see. Gunn's dad? I get the impression Gunn still lives in the
>old neighborhood, so no mention of his folks seems odd. Fred's been
>back 4 months and no mention, so ditto. No close family relationship in
>evidence there. Best we can hope for there is dead, I think. So you
>can see why I may seem desperate with ES.

My current personal mental fanfic about Gunn's parents is that his dad was a
good man who got himself killed defending his family from something. Thus, Gunn
has his protector complex and he and his sister were left alone. That way, we
can have one good Buffyverse dad even though said dad is out of the picture and
his kids were in dire straits.

As for Fred, minor TV Guide listing spoilers for the next episode ...


Apparently, that will be dealt with on Monday. Based on the TV Guide listing,
things don't look good for breaking the bad dad pattern, unless they throw a
twist in and it's not what we expect.

Shanna

SWeick

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18 Oct 2001, 23:33:1218/10/2001
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shan...@aol.com (Shanna) wrote:

>SDM wrote:
>
>>Let's see. Gunn's dad? I get the impression Gunn still lives in the
>>old neighborhood, so no mention of his folks seems odd. Fred's been
>>back 4 months and no mention, so ditto. No close family relationship in
>>evidence there. Best we can hope for there is dead, I think. So you
>>can see why I may seem desperate with ES.
>
>My current personal mental fanfic about Gunn's parents is that his dad was a
>good man who got himself killed defending his family from something. Thus,
>Gunn
>has his protector complex and he and his sister were left alone. That way, we
>can have one good Buffyverse dad even though said dad is out of the picture
>and
>his kids were in dire straits.


So what you're saying is the only good dad is a dead dad. (Almost seems
like ME motto. :-)

>As for Fred, minor TV Guide listing spoilers for the next episode ...


Nope, don't wanna know about Fredless.

SDM

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19 Oct 2001, 00:01:1719/10/2001
to
In article <20011018232352...@mb-cm.aol.com>,
shan...@aol.com (Shanna) wrote:

> SDM wrote:
>
> >Let's see. Gunn's dad? I get the impression Gunn still lives in the
> >old neighborhood, so no mention of his folks seems odd. Fred's been
> >back 4 months and no mention, so ditto. No close family relationship in
> >evidence there. Best we can hope for there is dead, I think. So you
> >can see why I may seem desperate with ES.
>
> My current personal mental fanfic about Gunn's parents is that his dad was a
> good man who got himself killed defending his family from something. Thus, Gunn
> has his protector complex and he and his sister were left alone. That way, we
> can have one good Buffyverse dad even though said dad is out of the picture

> andhis kids were in dire straits.
>
Pretty much my view as well.

> As for Fred, minor TV Guide listing spoilers for the next episode ...
>
>
>
>
> Apparently, that will be dealt with on Monday. Based on the TV Guide listing,
> things don't look good for breaking the bad dad pattern, unless they throw a
> twist in and it's not what we expect.
>

Lovely. Now I have to pin my hopes on Merl's dad.

Steve

Shanna

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19 Oct 2001, 10:58:5119/10/2001
to
SWeick wrote:

re: Gunn's dad


>So what you're saying is the only good dad is a dead dad. (Almost seems
>like ME motto. :-)

Well, considering his kids were living on the streets, the only way he could be
a "good" dad is if he's dead. Otherwise, he's neglecting his kids or so
entirely absent from their lives (see Hank Summers) that he doesn't know what's
going on.

At least if he's dead, he could have been a good dad while he was alive.

But think of it this way, if all our characters had wholesome, loving families,
they wouldn't have ended up where they are. That sort of self-selects for bad
parents. Same goes for Sunnydale, to some extent. If they'd all had caring
parents who were deeply involved in their lives, they wouldn't have been able
to be out all night fighting evil or coming home at all hours with torn clothes
without someone getting a clue. The people with good parents were all at home
doing their homework and having meals together instead of running around in
cemeteries and hanging out in the school library with a bachelor librarian.

Shanna

SWeick

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19 Oct 2001, 12:29:5119/10/2001
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In article <20011019105851...@mb-mt.aol.com>, shan...@aol.com
(Shanna) writes:

>SWeick wrote:
>
>re: Gunn's dad
>>So what you're saying is the only good dad is a dead dad. (Almost seems

>>like ME's motto. :-)


>
>Well, considering his kids were living on the streets, the only way he could
>be a "good" dad is if he's dead. Otherwise, he's neglecting his kids or so
>entirely absent from their lives (see Hank Summers) that he doesn't know
>what's going on.

(You will at least admit that the allusion to the racist feelings towards
Indians worked.)

Well, while never a Hank Summers fan, I thought he was totally
irresponsible as a parent when Buffy was making the 'He comes
down on weekends... sometimes' bit, I think ME has made him even
worse. It's one thing to be wrong and neglectful as a parent separated
from you kid in a divorce, it is totally evil what he is supposedly
doing with Dawn and Buffy. Your kid's mother dies yet you aren't even
around then? No support either financially or emotionally? WTFH?

They in no way had to write Hank as that evil.


>At least if he's dead, he could have been a good dad while he was alive.


I suppose we can hope, but what do you say about a father who
would let something happen that Gunn and Alonna would
be out on the streets. Most parents have guardians all ready
selected if they were to die. Usually relatives, but at least
friends they trust.

It can be written around, but it seems not likely that Gunn's father,
a man he never mentions, is going to be shown as good.

Though it would break a racial stereotype, which is probably a solid
driving force to make him good.


>But think of it this way, if all our characters had wholesome, loving
>families,
>they wouldn't have ended up where they are.


You mean no loving caring family has a child who grows up to
be a struggling actress working as an office manager?

No LCF has a child who failed initially as the head of a group,
gets fired, and works his way back up to be the head of another
group?

Actually, no, they didn't have to write Wesley's father that way
at all. SDM gave an example of how they could have written
English Sr. They instead made him clearly a DD.

> That sort of self-selects for bad
>parents. Same goes for Sunnydale, to some extent. If they'd all had caring
>parents who were deeply involved in their lives, they wouldn't have been able
>to be out all night fighting evil or coming home at all hours with torn
>clothes
>without someone getting a clue. The people with good parents were all at home
>doing their homework and having meals together instead of running around in
>cemeteries and hanging out in the school library with a bachelor librarian.


That doesn't explain why there are nothing but Damn Daddies in
the whole Buffyverse/Angelverse. Anne's folks are obviously bad.
Seth is domineering and controlling to the point of covering up a
murder. English Sr and Doyle's Demon Dad are obviously DD.
Trevor Lockley is shown as a corrupt coldhearted cop.

I gather TM wanted us not to think of Liam's dad as a DD. Hard to
do with him shoving and hitting Liam. "I was never in your way, boy."
is hard to accept after the put downs and the physical violence
his father heaped on Liam. Even in consideration of the times.
More likely Liam's interpretation was close enough to the mark.

If someone were to write all women as being shrews, it would be
fair to question their chauvinistic attitudes. Even if they tried to
show that some women aren't all that shrewish. That's the problem
they've developed with the Damn Dads. So much so that a majority
of the people are agreeing with me.

And that's never a good thing.

My other fear that I'm seeing, from the subtext that is rapidly becoming
text, is the inferiority and negative images of being male. It's not to the
Damn Daddies stage, but it's something to be watched.

Thank God for Darla, or this would be something of a grave concern.

David Adrien Tanguay

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19 Oct 2001, 13:40:4619/10/2001
to
SWeick wrote:
> Well, while never a Hank Summers fan, I thought he was totally
> irresponsible as a parent when Buffy was making the 'He comes
> down on weekends... sometimes' bit, I think ME has made him even
> worse. It's one thing to be wrong and neglectful as a parent separated
> from you kid in a divorce, it is totally evil what he is supposedly
> doing with Dawn and Buffy. Your kid's mother dies yet you aren't even
> around then? No support either financially or emotionally? WTFH?
>
> They in no way had to write Hank as that evil.

Maybe he is that evil. Has Buffy even seen him since running of with his
secretary? Did she have a bad skin condition?

> If someone were to write all women as being shrews, it would be
> fair to question their chauvinistic attitudes. Even if they tried to
> show that some women aren't all that shrewish. That's the problem
> they've developed with the Damn Dads. So much so that a majority
> of the people are agreeing with me.

How many Good Moms have we seen?
--
David Tanguay d...@Thinkage.ca http://www.thinkage.ca/~dat/
Thinkage, Ltd. Kitchener, Ontario, Canada [43.24N 80.29W]

SDM

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19 Oct 2001, 14:20:2619/10/2001
to
In article <20011019122951...@nso-bk.aol.com>,
swe...@aol.com (SWeick) wrote:

> My other fear that I'm seeing, from the subtext that is rapidly becoming
> text, is the inferiority and negative images of being male. It's not to the
> Damn Daddies stage, but it's something to be watched.
>
> Thank God for Darla, or this would be something of a grave concern.

Or it could be a matter for more grave concern. At this point, are you
really willing to rule out a Darla the Courageous Abandoned Pregnant
Woman vs. Whoever the Abandoning Daddy plot line?

"I don't even have a soul, but at least I care for our child". Yuck.

Steve

SWeick

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19 Oct 2001, 15:38:4919/10/2001
to
In article <3BD0659E...@thinkage.ca>, David Adrien Tanguay
<d...@thinkage.ca> writes:

SPOILERS FOR BtVS and ANGEL.

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

>SWeick wrote:
>> Well, while never a Hank Summers fan, ....


>> It's one thing to be wrong and neglectful as a parent separated
>> from you kid in a divorce, it is totally evil what he is supposedly
>> doing with Dawn and Buffy. Your kid's mother dies yet you aren't even
>> around then? No support either financially or emotionally? WTFH?
>>
>> They in no way had to write Hank as that evil.
>
>Maybe he is that evil.


He's an offscreen fictional character, he can't be made evil by
anything but the writers decision. It's easier to make him evil
and ignore his two daughters than to come up with a rational
explaination as to why he isn't around. Lazy writing.

Look again as Nightmares and WSWB. He's not shown as evil.
He took Buffy that summer after PG, which was not a hoot, and
didn't just ship her back to Joyce mid way. He couldn't communicate
with his daughter, but that's not just his failure as it was Buffy's.

Hank was an jerk, an self absorbed a-hole, but he was not evil
till these past two season.

Still wouldn't have mind seeing a vamp get a good meal off of Hank
previously, but now that's too good for him.


>Has Buffy even seen him since running of with his
>secretary? Did she have a bad skin condition?


Starting a new life with a new wife and ignoring your daughters who
are living with their mother is even more wrong and neglectful. Ignoring
them after their mother is dead is just evil. Plain and simple.

(Of course, you do know that you are agreeing with me.)


>> If someone were to write all women as being shrews, it would be
>> fair to question their chauvinistic attitudes. Even if they tried to
>> show that some women aren't all that shrewish. That's the problem
>> they've developed with the Damn Dads. So much so that a majority
>> of the people are agreeing with me.
>
>How many Good Moms have we seen?


You're saying that Joyce wasn't a Good Mom! Thems fightin' words!

Not having many Good Moms isn't the same as having a equal number
of Malevolent Mommies as there are Damn Daddies. The worst
mom we've seen on Angel was Lorne's and she was a demon for crying
out loud! They're supposed to be evil! "Your father was right, we ate
the wrong son."

Even still, I'd argue that the Moms have been a hell of a lot more
good than the Dads have been shown on both ME shows.

Joyce thru S2 was clueless. She was never evil. Sheila was clueless
and self absorbed. Not evil. Sorry, but there are few MM's to match
the vast number of DD's. Catherine the Great seeming like the only
exception on the human side verses the long list of human scumbags
that fathered children.

SDM

unread,
19 Oct 2001, 17:14:5619/10/2001
to
In article <20011019153849...@nso-fj.aol.com>,
swe...@aol.com (SWeick) wrote:

He wasn't even really that bad a jerk, if we can read anything of the
reactions of both Buffy and Joyce. The divorce certainly seemed
amicable, so much so that Joyce still expressed some seriously fuzzy
memories in PG. Joyce's excuses for Hank in [Surprise, I think] seemed
heartfelt. Joyce's convo with Hank in WSWB seemed friendly enough as
well.

> Still wouldn't have mind seeing a vamp get a good meal off of Hank
> previously, but now that's too good for him.
>

Yeah. At this point, they can do no better than never mention his name
again. Unless they're planning on flashing back to when Hank's soul was
magically thrust into Spike.

What? That's sillier than pregnant Darla?

Steve

David Adrien Tanguay

unread,
19 Oct 2001, 17:27:3119/10/2001
to
SWeick wrote:
> >Has Buffy even seen him since running of with his
> >secretary? Did she have a bad skin condition?
>
> Starting a new life with a new wife and ignoring your daughters who
> are living with their mother is even more wrong and neglectful. Ignoring
> them after their mother is dead is just evil. Plain and simple.

I think you missed the point: Is Hank still a human? If he's a vampire,
courtesy of that secretary, then ME isn't using him to say anything about
dads, they're just continuing the Buffy torture.

> >How many Good Moms have we seen?
>
> You're saying that Joyce wasn't a Good Mom! Thems fightin' words!

No, it was an honest question, not rhetorical. I'm wondering how much of
anti-dad is really just anti-authority.

> Catherine the Great seeming like the only
> exception on the human side verses the long list of human scumbags
> that fathered children.

Mrs. Epps (Some Assembly Required) was a deadbeat, Xander's mom, that W&H
lawyer Lilah mentioned.

Shanna

unread,
19 Oct 2001, 22:05:3819/10/2001
to
SWeick wrote:
(quoting me)

>Well, while never a Hank Summers fan, I thought he was totally
>irresponsible as a parent when Buffy was making the 'He comes
>down on weekends... sometimes' bit, I think ME has made him even
>worse. It's one thing to be wrong and neglectful as a parent separated
>from you kid in a divorce, it is totally evil what he is supposedly
>doing with Dawn and Buffy. Your kid's mother dies yet you aren't even
>around then? No support either financially or emotionally? WTFH?
>
>They in no way had to write Hank as that evil.

But in order to get the "Buffy has to suddenly shoulder a lot of adult
responsibility on her own" story they seemed to be trying for, Hank had to be
absent. If he'd been even a vaguely responsible dad, it would have taken away
from the crisis Buffy was facing and is facing and they wouldn't have had that
whole "weight of the world" metaphor. It would have gone to being just like
with Joyce around, only with Hank.

I guess they could always have killed him and added even more trauma to Buffy's
life.

>>At least if he's dead, he could have been a good dad while he was alive.
>
>
>I suppose we can hope, but what do you say about a father who
>would let something happen that Gunn and Alonna would
>be out on the streets. Most parents have guardians all ready
>selected if they were to die. Usually relatives, but at least
>friends they trust.

Those friends could have failed the kids after the father was gone. And being
poor doesn't make someone a bad dad, so it's possible that he wasn't able to
provide for his kids in the event of his death, especially if he died young.

>It can be written around, but it seems not likely that Gunn's father,
>a man he never mentions, is going to be shown as good.
>
>Though it would break a racial stereotype, which is probably a solid
>driving force to make him good.

And it would certainly break the overall pattern. We need someone on the show
who has a positive attitude toward his father. He did seem to assume that Wes
must have had a friendly chat with his dad, so I consider that a positive sign.
If you had a good dad, you might be more likely to assume that someone else's
relationship with his dad is going to be good.

>>But think of it this way, if all our characters had wholesome, loving
>>families,
>>they wouldn't have ended up where they are.
>
>
>You mean no loving caring family has a child who grows up to
>be a struggling actress working as an office manager?
>
>No LCF has a child who failed initially as the head of a group,
>gets fired, and works his way back up to be the head of another
>group?

But the situation we have is people who had no other options, who more or less
hit bottom and had no support structure, until they landed and succeeded where
they are, forming their own family-like unit. I suppose that someone from a
loving, caring family could be in that situation, but I don't think the stakes
would be as high if they had that kind of safety net.

I think the jury is still out on the loving quotient of Cordy's family. We
don't know if she felt emotionally neglected or if her dad's tax evasion
(possibly in order to buy her the things she wanted) was his main sin. But if
she had a loving family with any money at all, she wouldn't have reached the
level of desperation she had to reach to get to where she needed Angel's help,
and remember that Angel wasn't really her friend at the time she went to work
for him.

>Actually, no, they didn't have to write Wesley's father that way
>at all. SDM gave an example of how they could have written
>English Sr. They instead made him clearly a DD.

I don't think a caring father would have worked for Wesley. Again, if he had a
loving family to turn to, he wouldn't have been stranded in LA or avoiding
going home. And if he'd been the obnoxious son with a loving dad, then it would
have made him an unsympathetic character. That scenario would have worked if
they'd just stuck with Sunnydale Wesley. But when they moved him over to Angel
and had to make him one of the good guys, they had to create a sympathetic
character. Giving him a difficult childhood with a domineering, possibly
abusive father explained a lot of the previous negative behavior we'd seen from
him in Sunnydale and earned him a few sympathy points.

>If someone were to write all women as being shrews, it would be
>fair to question their chauvinistic attitudes. Even if they tried to
>show that some women aren't all that shrewish. That's the problem
>they've developed with the Damn Dads. So much so that a majority
>of the people are agreeing with me.
>
>And that's never a good thing.
>
>My other fear that I'm seeing, from the subtext that is rapidly becoming
>text, is the inferiority and negative images of being male. It's not to the
>Damn Daddies stage, but it's something to be watched.

I suspect it has more to do with lazy writing than with any kind of agenda. If
you want to make someone sympathetic, explain motivation or behavior or give
young people an excuse to exist without a lot of adult supervision, giving them
a bad dad is an easy way to do it. I agree that they should spread it out a bit
more and throw in some bad moms and mix in a happy family or two. They did have
Amy's evil mom, and Willow's mom was the one who was shown to be the source of
a lot of Willow's problems (we never did meet Ira, did we?).

But there are generally story/character reasons for most of the Damn Daddies. I
already explained the reasons for Wesley (and his is the one case I think
really, really fits and makes for something truly interesting). For Kate, they
needed a reason behind a "macho" policewoman with a chip on her shoulder, and
the easy way to get that would be for her to have been raised by an emotionally
distant father. There are probably other ways to have done that, but that would
require more thought.

I still don't think that Liam's father counts. Nor does Lindsey's. Again, being
poor doesn't make you a Damn Dad, and I think what we heard from Lindsey about
that was heavily filtered through Lindsey's perceptions. I also don't agree
about Seth. I think he was desperately trying to be a good father and protect
his family, but he was up against something he wasn't equipped to handle (a
sociopathic kid possessed by a demon). I certainly wouldn't call him a Damn
Dad. Get rid of the stresses on his family and the evil kid, and he'd be a good
father.

Which, on Angel, leaves us with English Sr. and Trevor Lockley. We don't have
enough evidence on Cordy's dad beyond his tax evasion and we don't yet know
Fred's family. It's just when you throw in Hank Summers and Xander's dad that
things start looking more ugly.

>Thank God for Darla, or this would be something of a grave concern.

Oh, you just like Darla for a multitude of reasons. :-)

Shanna

SWeick

unread,
19 Oct 2001, 23:09:1019/10/2001
to
In article <smeyer-F404C8....@news.apple.com>, SDM <sme...@mac.com>
writes:

>In article <20011019122951...@nso-bk.aol.com>,
> swe...@aol.com (SWeick) wrote:
>
>> My other fear that I'm seeing, from the subtext that is rapidly becoming
>> text, is the inferiority and negative images of being male. It's not to
>> the Damn Daddies stage, but it's something to be watched.
>>
>> Thank God for Darla, or this would be something of a grave concern.
>
>Or it could be a matter for more grave concern. At this point, are you
>really willing to rule out a Darla the Courageous Abandoned Pregnant
>Woman vs. Whoever the Abandoning Daddy plot line?


The humor comes from Daddy Angel.

Namely, just picture Auntie Cordy. :-)

Or just picture Cordy after she learns about that Epiphany of his. :-0

And if you think Gunn and Wes didn't want to set the rat traps,
wait till changing time comes along. =8^P


>"I don't even have a soul, but at least I care for our child". Yuck.


Darla didn't have a lobotomy, so I think we're safe.

With a sigh Darla takes the knife away from him and makes the
cut herself.

Darla: "Men are such babies."

SWeick

unread,
20 Oct 2001, 01:08:4120/10/2001
to
In article <3BD09AC3...@thinkage.ca>, David Adrien Tanguay
<d...@thinkage.ca> writes:

>SWeick wrote:
>> >Has Buffy even seen him since running of with his
>> >secretary? Did she have a bad skin condition?
>>
>> Starting a new life with a new wife and ignoring your daughters who
>> are living with their mother is even more wrong and neglectful. Ignoring
>> them after their mother is dead is just evil. Plain and simple.
>
>I think you missed the point: Is Hank still a human? If he's a vampire,
>courtesy of that secretary, then ME isn't using him to say anything about
>dads, they're just continuing the Buffy torture.


There's no evidence of it. Seeing that he's at work, I'm going with
no. Vamps tend not to bother with their old human jobs. Most of
them being day jobs.

And being a vampire, he'd want Dawn as a nice little snack.


>> >How many Good Moms have we seen?
>>
>> You're saying that Joyce wasn't a Good Mom! Thems fightin' words!
>
>No, it was an honest question, not rhetorical. I'm wondering how much of
>anti-dad is really just anti-authority.


The writers are sexist bastards who think men rule everything? :-O

OK, I'm not deadly serious with that. But many families the
mother clearly rules, yet no one other than Amy does that
seem to hold true.


>> Catherine the Great seeming like the only
>> exception on the human side verses the long list of human scumbags
>> that fathered children.
>
>Mrs. Epps (Some Assembly Required) was a deadbeat,


Emotionally destroyed != deadbeat.


> Xander's mom,

Xander's dad.

> that W&H lawyer Lilah mentioned.


Damn short list you got there.

SWeick

unread,
20 Oct 2001, 01:08:4220/10/2001
to
In article <smeyer-0C19FF....@news.apple.com>, SDM <sme...@mac.com>
writes:


It's hard to defend him after Helpless. And personally I wouldn't.
I wouldn't for his S1 behavior. He only had one daughter and
his time with her should have been the most important thing in
the world. That's the responsibility you assume becoming a
parent.


>> Still wouldn't have mind seeing a vamp get a good meal off of Hank
>> previously, but now that's too good for him.
>>
>Yeah. At this point, they can do no better than never mention his name
>again.


Or write him off into a different dimension.


>Unless they're planning on flashing back to when Hank's soul was
>magically thrust into Spike.


So if Buffy shags Spike as Roaz wants...

Cordy: "There's not enough yuck in the world."


>What? That's sillier than pregnant Darla?


Sure is.

Cause Mmmmm, Darla.

SWeick

unread,
20 Oct 2001, 01:08:4520/10/2001
to
In article <20011019220538...@mb-fk.aol.com>, shan...@aol.com
(Shanna) writes:

>SWeick wrote:
>(quoting me)
>
>>Well, while never a Hank Summers fan, I thought he was totally
>>irresponsible as a parent when Buffy was making the 'He comes
>>down on weekends... sometimes' bit, I think ME has made him even
>>worse. It's one thing to be wrong and neglectful as a parent separated
>>from you kid in a divorce, it is totally evil what he is supposedly
>>doing with Dawn and Buffy. Your kid's mother dies yet you aren't even
>>around then? No support either financially or emotionally? WTFH?
>>
>>They in no way had to write Hank as that evil.
>
>But in order to get the "Buffy has to suddenly shoulder a lot of adult
>responsibility on her own" story they seemed to be trying for, Hank had to be
>absent. If he'd been even a vaguely responsible dad, it would have taken away
>from the crisis Buffy was facing and is facing and they wouldn't have had
>that whole "weight of the world" metaphor. It would have gone to being just
like
>with Joyce around, only with Hank.


They specifically decided to show Hank as being intentionally
avoiding his family responsibilities. They didn't have to have
him out of the country with his secretary, living the dream.
He could have been stuck setting up a sales office in one
of the former Soviet Republics and be basically incommuticato.
They selected that choice.

>I guess they could always have killed him and added even more trauma to
>Buffy's life.


Not seeing she'd be bothered by it much.


>>>At least if he's dead, he could have been a good dad while he was alive.
>>
>>
>>I suppose we can hope, but what do you say about a father who
>>would let something happen that Gunn and Alonna would
>>be out on the streets. Most parents have guardians all ready
>>selected if they were to die. Usually relatives, but at least
>>friends they trust.
>
>Those friends could have failed the kids after the father was gone. And being
>poor doesn't make someone a bad dad, so it's possible that he wasn't able to
>provide for his kids in the event of his death, especially if he died young.


It's possible to write it that way. But they are going to have to explain
why family and friends failed the kids.

>>It can be written around, but it seems not likely that Gunn's father,
>>a man he never mentions, is going to be shown as good.
>>
>>Though it would break a racial stereotype, which is probably a solid
>>driving force to make him good.
>
>And it would certainly break the overall pattern. We need someone on the show
>who has a positive attitude toward his father. He did seem to assume that Wes
>must have had a friendly chat with his dad, so I consider that a positive
sign.


And some think I read tea leaves... :-)


>If you had a good dad, you might be more likely to assume that someone else's
>relationship with his dad is going to be good.


Or if you think someone has his stuff together while you don't you might
assume that he has a better relationship with his father. If you remember
the scene Wes was extremely chipper about it with Gunn. There's no
reason to suspect anything was wrong except for us knowing those little
details.


>>>But think of it this way, if all our characters had wholesome, loving
>>>families,
>>>they wouldn't have ended up where they are.
>>
>>
>>You mean no loving caring family has a child who grows up to
>>be a struggling actress working as an office manager?
>>
>>No LCF has a child who failed initially as the head of a group,
>>gets fired, and works his way back up to be the head of another
>>group?
>
>But the situation we have is people who had no other options, who more or
>less
>hit bottom and had no support structure, until they landed and succeeded
>where
>they are, forming their own family-like unit. I suppose that someone from a
>loving, caring family could be in that situation, but I don't think the
>stakes
>would be as high if they had that kind of safety net.


Oh, I agree the drama would be different, but many people find themselves
in these situations and refuse to accept help from their families, no matter
how supportive they would be.


>>Actually, no, they didn't have to write Wesley's father that way
>>at all. SDM gave an example of how they could have written
>>English Sr. They instead made him clearly a DD.
>
>I don't think a caring father would have worked for Wesley.


If Wes' dad were a legend, yes it would. His failure was so complete
that he wouldn't dare contact his father, to show one again how
he's lost in his father's shadow. No matter what, he'd make it out
on his own and succeed.

Which is exactly what Wesley did.


> Again, if he had a
>loving family to turn to, he wouldn't have been stranded in LA or avoiding
>going home. And if he'd been the obnoxious son with a loving dad, then it
>would have made him an unsympathetic character. That scenario would
>have worked if they'd just stuck with Sunnydale Wesley. But when they
>moved him over to Angel and had to make him one of the good guys,
>they had to create a sympathetic character. Giving him a difficult
>childhood with a domineering, possibly abusive father explained a lot
>of the previous negative behavior we'd seen from
>him in Sunnydale and earned him a few sympathy points.


The hell with sympathy points. People are often stuck behind
the success of their parents. The fact of his total failure as a
Watcher would be enough to gain sympathy points.


>>If someone were to write all women as being shrews, it would be
>>fair to question their chauvinistic attitudes. Even if they tried to
>>show that some women aren't all that shrewish. That's the problem
>>they've developed with the Damn Dads. So much so that a majority
>>of the people are agreeing with me.
>>
>>And that's never a good thing.
>>
>>My other fear that I'm seeing, from the subtext that is rapidly becoming
>>text, is the inferiority and negative images of being male. It's not to the
>>Damn Daddies stage, but it's something to be watched.
>
>I suspect it has more to do with lazy writing than with any kind of agenda.

<snipped>

>There are probably other ways to have done that, but that
>would
>require more thought.


I have nothing more to add.


>I still don't think that Liam's father counts.


So you recommend assaulting and belittling as good parenting
techniques? :-)


> Nor does Lindsey's. Again, being
>poor doesn't make you a Damn Dad, and I think what we heard from Lindsey
>about that was heavily filtered through Lindsey's perceptions.


I'll give a bit on Lindsey, but I'm doubting that he'd win Father of
the Year either.


> I also don't agree
>about Seth. I think he was desperately trying to be a good father and protect
>his family, but he was up against something he wasn't equipped to handle (a
>sociopathic kid possessed by a demon). I certainly wouldn't call him a Damn
>Dad. Get rid of the stresses on his family and the evil kid, and he'd be a
>good father.


The man covered up for his son's involvement in a murder. He
was shown as authoritarian on many instances. His failure to
understand that he couldn't control the one almost cost his
other child's life. And why the hell was she being locked in
her room? Seth is definitely a bad parent.


>Which, on Angel, leaves us with English Sr. and Trevor Lockley.

Did Mr. Chaulk just disappear? You know, Bethany's Damn Daddy?
And Virginia's father was only going to feed her to Yeska the Davric
demon.

>It's just when you throw in Hank Summers and Xander's dad that
>things start looking more ugly.

Ted, Tara's father, The Mayor (Faith's substitute Father), etc.

The absence of fathers also leads to some questioning of Daddies.
Who was the father of the unborn girl in Judgment? Why isn't
he there helping? Why no mention of Faith's. Cordy's mom
called, but nothing about her father.


>>Thank God for Darla, or this would be something of a grave concern.
>
>Oh, you just like Darla for a multitude of reasons. :-)


On that I'm guilty.

Still should be staked this season, but yeah, Mmmmm Darla.

And we'll always have flashbacks. Mmmmm Flashback Darla.

Sarah Trombley

unread,
20 Oct 2001, 02:55:0220/10/2001
to
In article <20011020010842...@nso-fa.aol.com>,

SWeick <swe...@aol.com> wrote:
>In article <smeyer-0C19FF....@news.apple.com>, SDM <sme...@mac.com>
>writes:
>
>>In article <20011019153849...@nso-fj.aol.com>,
>> swe...@aol.com (SWeick) wrote:
>>
>>> In article <3BD0659E...@thinkage.ca>, David Adrien Tanguay
>>> <d...@thinkage.ca> writes:
>>>
>>> SPOILERS FOR BtVS and ANGEL.
>>>
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>>
>It's hard to defend him after Helpless. And personally I wouldn't.
>I wouldn't for his S1 behavior.

What behavior in S1? The whole season can't have lasted three months, yet
he definitely took her for the weekend at least once and for the entire
summer afterwards.

> He only had one daughter and
>his time with her should have been the most important thing in
>the world. That's the responsibility you assume becoming a
>parent.

So he fell down once. I give my mom very high marks in the mom department,
but I cannot honestly claim that she has never seriously disappointed me
or failed to be there when I needed her. She's a human being. Like me.


--Sarah T.

Sarah Trombley

unread,
20 Oct 2001, 03:03:5420/10/2001
to
In article <20011020010845...@nso-fa.aol.com>,

SWeick <swe...@aol.com> wrote:
>In article <20011019220538...@mb-fk.aol.com>, shan...@aol.com
>(Shanna) writes:
>
>It's possible to write it that way. But they are going to have to explain
>why family and friends failed the kids.

It's not cheap or easy to take in two young kids. Kids end up in the foster-
care system all the time, you know.

>>I don't think a caring father would have worked for Wesley.
>
>
>If Wes' dad were a legend, yes it would. His failure was so complete
>that he wouldn't dare contact his father, to show one again how
>he's lost in his father's shadow. No matter what, he'd make it out
>on his own and succeed.
>
>Which is exactly what Wesley did.

I have this pet theory which will no doubt be Jossed (Greenwalted?) sooner
or later. That Wes's dad is not a Watcher, but someone wealthy and
financially connected with the Council (if they have all that influence,
at least some of the people involved must know who they are)--in short,
some kind of profiteer in the war against the forces of evil. A businessman
who believes that the actual fighting is for those dumb enough to go on
damnfool idealistic crusades and get killed for them. A father utterly
dismayed by his son's decision to enlist in said crusade and accept his
calling as Watcher, because it means (a) being a sucker and (b) probably
dying young.

If Wes, eager to feel wanted, defied his father and clung to his calling
as that which gave him self-worth, he'd have a damned hard time crawling
home to his father after getting fired, even though, in my scenario,
WP, Sr., is just a moderately unsympathetic character, not an out-and-out
villain, and genuinely concerned for the wellbeing of his son.


--Sarah T.

SWeick

unread,
20 Oct 2001, 05:54:5120/10/2001
to
In article <9qr7kq$bsg$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu>, trom...@is05.fas.harvard.edu
(Sarah Trombley) writes:

>In article <20011020010845...@nso-fa.aol.com>,
>SWeick <swe...@aol.com> wrote:
>>In article <20011019220538...@mb-fk.aol.com>, shan...@aol.com
>>(Shanna) writes:
>>
>>It's possible to write it that way. But they are going to have to explain
>>why family and friends failed the kids.
>
>It's not cheap or easy to take in two young kids. Kids end up in the foster-
>care system all the time, you know.


Which, if they explain it well, can work. Though again, you're going to
have to explain why they couldn't find a relative or friend to take the
kids in. Poverty is one excuse, though a bit lame. Poor people
take care of kids all the time.

SWeick

unread,
20 Oct 2001, 05:54:5120/10/2001
to
In article <9qr746$bp1$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu>, trom...@is05.fas.harvard.edu
(Sarah Trombley) writes:

(From Nightmares Transcript, AleXander Thompson Transcriber)

Buffy: He's coming, right?

Joyce: You're on for this weekend.

Buffy: Good.

Cut to Sunnydale High.

Willow: So, do you see your dad a lot?

Buffy: Not a whole lot.

Cut to the halls. Willow and Buffy walk as they talk.

Buffy: He's still in L.A. He, like, comes down for weekends sometimes.

Willow: When did they get divorced?

Buffy: Well, it wasn't finalized till last year, but they were
separated before that.

Willow: Musta been harsh.

They reach Buffy's locker.

Buffy: Yeah, that's the word you're looking for. (works the
combination) I-I mean, they were really good about it around me, anyway,
but still...

Willow: My parents don't even bicker. Sometimes they glare. Do you know
why your folks split up?

Buffy: (opens her locker) I didn't ask. They just stopped getting
along. I'm sure I was a really big help, though, with all the slaying
and everything. I was in so much trouble. I was a big mess.

Willow: Well, I'm sure that didn't have anything to do with him
leaving.

Buffy: No. (closes her locker)

Willow: And he still comes down on weekends.

Buffy: Sometimes.

<snip>

Buffy: (shakes her head) Not really. Oh, no, my bag! I-I packed it for
the weekend and I forgot it!

Joyce: You and your dad can swing by the house and get your bag. It's
not an international crisis.

Buffy: Okay. Yeah, I just, uh, had meant to bring it. H-he's picking me
up here, right? A-at 3:30?

Joyce: Honey, a-are you worried your father isn't gonna show?

Buffy: No! N-not really. Should I be?

Joyce: Well, of course, not! I-I-I just, I-I know it's a hard
situation. You just have to remember that your father adores you. No
more than I do, by the way.


The root cause of her nightmares is the uncertainty of her father
actually caring to take the time to come see her.


>> He only had one daughter and
>>his time with her should have been the most important thing in
>>the world. That's the responsibility you assume becoming a
>>parent.
>
>So he fell down once.


Once seems not enough to be causing Buffy's anxieties.


I give my mom very high marks in the mom department,
>but I cannot honestly claim that she has never seriously disappointed me
>or failed to be there when I needed her. She's a human being.


His additional failings were the continuation of those actions. He
starts missing weekends. Then Birthdays. Now he basically doesn't
even care enough to be there with his two daughters after his wife
dies? That's a bit more than an infrequent failure to be there.


>Like me.


See gang, she is too human! :-)

And so's her folks! :-O

H.G.Hettinger

unread,
20 Oct 2001, 11:07:0320/10/2001
to
On 20 Oct 2001 02:05:38 GMT, shan...@aol.com (Shanna) wrote:

>Which, on Angel, leaves us with English Sr. and Trevor Lockley.

Actually I don't think that it's fair to rate Trevor as one of the
Damn Daddies. I got the distinct impression that he only got on the
slippery slide of taking money on the side to try and provide his
daughter with a better life than he could have on his scant salary.

Yes, he was emotionally stunted and had become unable to express his
love for his daughter after his wife died, but is that enough to make
him a DD?

>We don't have
>enough evidence on Cordy's dad beyond his tax evasion and we don't yet know
>Fred's family. It's just when you throw in Hank Summers and Xander's dad that
>things start looking more ugly.

Actually, we have less evidence as to Xander's dad than we have that
Willow's mom is completely oblivious when it comes to her daughter
(remember her not having noticed for three months that Willow had cut
her hair and reacting to Willow's attempt to tell her what was
bothering her with nothing more than some glib pop-psychology
phrases?)

So, imho, the only true DD candidate to date would be English Senior
so far on Angel.

hgh


Visit Angel Investigations for complete and quote-riddled
episode summaries of all Angel episodes.
http://users.digitalexp.com/~users/hettinger/Angel.html

David Cheatham

unread,
20 Oct 2001, 12:44:4320/10/2001
to
SWeick <swe...@aol.com> says...

> The absence of fathers also leads to some questioning of Daddies.
> Who was the father of the unborn girl in Judgment? Why isn't
> he there helping? Why no mention of Faith's. Cordy's mom
> called, but nothing about her father.

Cordy's father is in jail. Presumably, she's calling him, not the other
way around.

Anyone know how long you get for tax evasion, roughly?

SWeick

unread,
20 Oct 2001, 12:58:2720/10/2001
to
H.G.Hettinger h...@digitalexp.com wrote:

>
>On 20 Oct 2001 02:05:38 GMT, shan...@aol.com (Shanna) wrote:
>
>>Which, on Angel, leaves us with English Sr. and Trevor Lockley.
>
>Actually I don't think that it's fair to rate Trevor as one of the
>Damn Daddies. I got the distinct impression that he only got on the
>slippery slide of taking money on the side to try and provide his
>daughter with a better life than he could have on his scant salary.
>
>Yes, he was emotionally stunted and had become unable to express his
>love for his daughter after his wife died, but is that enough to make
>him a DD?


I'd say yes. A negative image of fatherhood.

>>We don't have
>>enough evidence on Cordy's dad beyond his tax evasion and we don't yet know
>>Fred's family. It's just when you throw in Hank Summers and Xander's dad
>that
>>things start looking more ugly.
>
>Actually, we have less evidence as to Xander's dad than we have that
>Willow's mom is completely oblivious when it comes to her daughter

(From The Replacements)

Upstairs we hear a door slam.

XANDER: (looking up) Ah, I guess the folks are back.

We can hear voices yelling at each other. Xander, Anya, and Riley look
uncomfortable. Buffy is oblivious.

XANDER: No, no, I was wrong. Just incompetent burglars.


(Bad Girls)

Cordelia: Well, Xander, I could dress more like you, but, (in mock
sympathy) oh, my father has a job.

She immediately leaves. Xander watches her go, once again having nothing
to say.

Xander: I'm not gonna waste the perfect comeback on you now. (points at
her) But don't think I don't have it. (miffed) Oh, yes! Its time will
come!


(Amends)

Cordelia: I thought you slept outside to avoid your
family's drunken Christmas fights.

Xander: Yes. And that was a confidence I was hoping you would share
with everyone.


>So, imho, the only true DD candidate to date would be English Senior
>so far on Angel.


Bethany's father from Untouched. Virginia's father from
Guise will be Guise.

SWeick

unread,
20 Oct 2001, 13:02:1820/10/2001
to
David Cheatham da...@creeknet.com wrote:

>SWeick <swe...@aol.com> says...
>> The absence of fathers also leads to some questioning of Daddies.
>> Who was the father of the unborn girl in Judgment? Why isn't
>> he there helping? Why no mention of Faith's. Cordy's mom
>> called, but nothing about her father.
>
>Cordy's father is in jail. Presumably, she's calling him, not the other
>way around.


Actually, I don't think Cordy's father is in jail. From what the
noncanon stories say, he left the country with his wife.

Which really makes you wonder about that call from Cordy's mom.

William George Ferguson

unread,
20 Oct 2001, 13:17:3220/10/2001
to
(SWeick) wrote:
[after quoting the Buffy/Willow and Buffy/Joyce conversation in
Nightmares]

>The root cause of her nightmares is the uncertainty of her father
>actually caring to take the time to come see her.

The root cause of her nightmare was pretty clearly that she blamed
herself for her parents breaking up (which is pretty common with
children in divorces). Willow picked up on that in the conversation
at the lockers, which was pretty perceptive of her since she hadn't
known Buffy all that long at that point.

Basically, Buffy blames herself for pretty much anything bad that
happens, going back to The Harvest (she didn't have the opportunity to
show that aspect of her character in WttH). She was, by the very
nature of her personality, carrying the weight of the world on her
shoulders long before episode 99.

None of the above is an attempt to argue whether Hank was mostly a
good father or bad father, just that the root cause of Buffy's initial
nightmare wasn't Hank's behavior, rather it was Buffy's (almost
certainly misdirected) guilt.

--
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
(Bene Gesserit)

SWeick

unread,
20 Oct 2001, 13:48:3720/10/2001
to
William George Ferguson wmgf...@newsguy.com wrote:

>(SWeick) wrote:
>[after quoting the Buffy/Willow and Buffy/Joyce conversation in
>Nightmares]
>>The root cause of her nightmares is the uncertainty of her father
>>actually caring to take the time to come see her.
>
>The root cause of her nightmare was pretty clearly that she blamed
>herself for her parents breaking up (which is pretty common with
>children in divorces).


Which if Hank had been around consistently, would have been
less to none.


>Basically, Buffy blames herself for pretty much anything bad that
>happens,


But something bad has to have happened and it be reinforced.

Hank not being around much reinforces the thought that she is
why. That's even what Nightmare Hank says. He doesn't get
much out of those get togethers and really doesn't want to do them
anymore. If Hank was there every time he could, or almost, do you
think Buffy would feel that way?


>None of the above is an attempt to argue whether Hank was mostly a
>good father or bad father, just that the root cause of Buffy's initial
>nightmare wasn't Hank's behavior, rather it was Buffy's (almost
>certainly misdirected) guilt.


Which was caused by "comes by on weekends... sometimes"
Daddy's not here. Why? Cause he blames me. He doesn't
love me. I caused the breakup.


ObAngel: Isn't it like a young girl who has an absent father to go for
the much older guy than she should. And Angel was much older, as
looking like a college man let along 250 years older.

Don Sample

unread,
20 Oct 2001, 14:13:3320/10/2001
to
In article <20011020055451...@nso-fp.aol.com>, SWeick
<swe...@aol.com> wrote:

> His additional failings were the continuation of those actions. He
> starts missing weekends. Then Birthdays. Now he basically doesn't
> even care enough to be there with his two daughters after his wife
> dies? That's a bit more than an infrequent failure to be there.

We still don't know *why* Hank was incommunicado for six months. It
may turn out that he had a good reason.

We also don't know why he cancelled out on Buffy's 18th birthday, but I
suspect that by then Buffy had cancelled weekends and things on him a
lot more times than he cancelled on her, with some pretty lame excuses
for doing it. He might have started getting the idea that his daughter
didn't want to see him anymore.

--
Don Sample, dsa...@synapse.net
Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://www.synapse.net/~dsample/BBC
Quando omni flunkus moritati

Don Sample

unread,
20 Oct 2001, 14:14:4120/10/2001
to
In article <MPG.163b74063...@News.CIS.DFN.DE>, David Cheatham
<da...@creeknet.com> wrote:

There is no indication that Cordy's dad had to do any more than pay
some hefty fines, that left him broke.

SWeick

unread,
20 Oct 2001, 15:14:4920/10/2001
to
Don Sample dsa...@synapse.net wrote:

>
>In article <20011020055451...@nso-fp.aol.com>, SWeick
><swe...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> His additional failings were the continuation of those actions. He
>> starts missing weekends. Then Birthdays. Now he basically doesn't
>> even care enough to be there with his two daughters after his wife
>> dies? That's a bit more than an infrequent failure to be there.
>
>We still don't know *why* Hank was incommunicado for six months. It
>may turn out that he had a good reason.


Perhaps, but the on screen reason given by someone who should
have some idea was "...with his secretary, living the dream."


>We also don't know why he cancelled out on Buffy's 18th birthday,


It was clearly given on screen. Now he could have lied but
why would he?


but I
>suspect that by then Buffy had cancelled weekends and things on him a
>lot more times than he cancelled on her, with some pretty lame excuses
>for doing it.


Could be, could not be. No onscreen info.


He might have started getting the idea that his daughter
>didn't want to see him anymore.


And if they had bothered to put that in on instance, for example
Buffy saying how she's being way hard on him cause she's cut out
on him too, including her three month runaway as Anne.

We can fanwank it away as Hank having been turned into a vampire
and not wanting to meet up with his daughter the Slayer (except
that every other vampire seems to want to try her). That he was in a
coma himself. That he was in the outer reaches of Mongolia doing
missionary work. That he was taken over by the pod person that was
Giles in S4.

That's not the problem. The problem is what is on screen and
the consistency of negative father images more than anything else.

If Hank were the only one, we wouldn't
have complaints about
DD. It's when you have a substantial number of negative images
of fathers that you have that problem.

But I would not mind the retcon of Hank. But it would be a reset.

Sarah Trombley

unread,
20 Oct 2001, 15:22:3320/10/2001
to
In article <20011020055451...@nso-fp.aol.com>,

SWeick <swe...@aol.com> wrote:
>In article <9qr746$bp1$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu>, trom...@is05.fas.harvard.edu
>(Sarah Trombley) writes:
>
>>
>The root cause of her nightmares is the uncertainty of her father
>actually caring to take the time to come see her.

No, it's that she fears she was the cause of the divorce. Her nightmare
wasn't that he didn't show, it was that he told her that it was all her
fault.

>>> He only had one daughter and
>>>his time with her should have been the most important thing in
>>>the world. That's the responsibility you assume becoming a
>>>parent.
>>
>>So he fell down once.
>
>
>Once seems not enough to be causing Buffy's anxieties.

Stephen, the child of the best parent in the world could easily have those
anxieties when her parents split up. It's incredibly common.

>His additional failings were the continuation of those actions. He
>starts missing weekends.

Uh, text?

> Then Birthdays. Now he basically doesn't
>even care enough to be there with his two daughters after his wife
>dies? That's a bit more than an infrequent failure to be there.

Well, obviously things changed in S5. For the stupider.


--Sarah T.

Don Sample

unread,
20 Oct 2001, 20:32:1820/10/2001
to
In article <20011020151449...@mb-de.aol.com>, SWeick
<swe...@aol.com> wrote:

> Don Sample dsa...@synapse.net wrote:
>
> >
> >In article <20011020055451...@nso-fp.aol.com>, SWeick
> ><swe...@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> >> His additional failings were the continuation of those actions. He
> >> starts missing weekends. Then Birthdays. Now he basically doesn't
> >> even care enough to be there with his two daughters after his wife
> >> dies? That's a bit more than an infrequent failure to be there.
> >
> >We still don't know *why* Hank was incommunicado for six months. It
> >may turn out that he had a good reason.
>
>
> Perhaps, but the on screen reason given by someone who should
> have some idea was "...with his secretary, living the dream."

That's why he went to Spain. Not why they couldn't get in touch with
him there.

> >We also don't know why he cancelled out on Buffy's 18th birthday,
>
>
> It was clearly given on screen. Now he could have lied but
> why would he?

"His quarterly projections are unravelling" isn't much of an
explanation. Maybe his boss told him "Get this straightened out this
weekend, or you're fired!" or "If we don't get this mess straightened
out now, or we have to declare Chapter-11 and lay off 1000 people."

Mark Nobles

unread,
20 Oct 2001, 19:16:5520/10/2001
to
SWeick <swe...@aol.com> wrote:

> trom...@is05.fas.harvard.edu (Sarah Trombley) writes:


> >SWeick <swe...@aol.com> wrote:
> >>shan...@aol.com (Shanna) writes:
> >>
> >>It's possible to write it that way. But they are going to have to explain
> >>why family and friends failed the kids.
> >
> >It's not cheap or easy to take in two young kids. Kids end up in the foster-
> >care system all the time, you know.
>
> Which, if they explain it well, can work. Though again, you're going to
> have to explain why they couldn't find a relative or friend to take the
> kids in. Poverty is one excuse, though a bit lame. Poor people
> take care of kids all the time.

There were a lot of kids in Gunn's group. If there were that many
families eaten by the vampires over that short a period, it would put a
real strain on the community to take all those kids in and be able to
support them. Even more so if you consider these kids are the ones that
lost both parents, so there are probably many more families that were
left with a single parent.

The heavy predation in their neighborhood explains why they took to
fighting vamps. Wasn't it even mentioned sometime around when Gunn first
appeared?

SWeick

unread,
20 Oct 2001, 22:45:2720/10/2001
to
In article <1f1l1jq.tx0qgw1od5lvoN%cmn-n...@houston.rr.com>,
cmn-n...@houston.rr.com (Mark Nobles) writes:


OK, I like that. It explains why Gunn's father could have been
left without anyone to take care of his kid, cause they all died.

Let's make Gunn's old man the rarity in the MEverse, a good man
and father.

SWeick

unread,
20 Oct 2001, 22:45:2720/10/2001
to
In article <201020012015506238%dsa...@synapse.net>, Don Sample
<dsa...@synapse.net> writes:

>In article <20011020151449...@mb-de.aol.com>, SWeick
><swe...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> Don Sample dsa...@synapse.net wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >In article <20011020055451...@nso-fp.aol.com>, SWeick
>> ><swe...@aol.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> His additional failings were the continuation of those actions. He
>> >> starts missing weekends. Then Birthdays. Now he basically doesn't
>> >> even care enough to be there with his two daughters after his wife
>> >> dies? That's a bit more than an infrequent failure to be there.
>> >
>> >We still don't know *why* Hank was incommunicado for six months. It
>> >may turn out that he had a good reason.
>>
>>
>> Perhaps, but the on screen reason given by someone who should
>> have some idea was "...with his secretary, living the dream."
>
>That's why he went to Spain. Not why they couldn't get in touch with
>him there.


And they still haven't said why.

Yeah, he finally got in touch over the summer. And just leaves
his two daughters alone, not talking at all to one of them (yeah,
they were trying to make sure that he didn't run into the Buffybot,
but good God, think of what that says about the man!).

Don, you're making excuses for Hank but they don't work. He
is out of his daughter's life and hasn't been heard from since S2.


>> >We also don't know why he cancelled out on Buffy's 18th birthday,
>>
>>
>> It was clearly given on screen. Now he could have lied but
>> why would he?
>
>"His quarterly projections are unravelling" isn't much of an
>explanation. Maybe his boss told him "Get this straightened out this
>weekend, or you're fired!" or "If we don't get this mess straightened
>out now, or we have to declare Chapter-11 and lay off 1000 people."


Which can explain one instance of what is obviously many. Why
wasn't Hank taking Buffy out her previous Birthday? Two years in
a row maybe? You add on her comments about "sometimes" he
comes up for weekends with her total bitterness about his being
in Spain with his secretary and how do you not get that Buffy is
very much estranged from her father?

It's sort of the trouble they've given themselves with Liam's dad.
I knew that they didn't want us to think that he was the major
problem, but they kept showing him belittling his son, assaulting
him, and basically acting exactly as Liam complained that he was.
TM wanted us to get that Liam's dad was never in the way of Liam
making something of himself, but that's not how the story actually
looked.

Now, look at the fathers of the characters on the shows. Cordy's
dad is a felon. Wes' dad is a near monster. Angel's dad was brutish.
I gather we get to meet Fred's. Buffy's is horribly neglecting. Willow's is
nonexistent. Xander's is an unemployed drunk. Tara's is evil.

So far, Willow's is the best of the lousy lot.

The mothers have come off far better, even Willow's, than the fathers
have. In both secondary and primary characters.

SWeick

unread,
20 Oct 2001, 22:45:2620/10/2001
to
In article <9qsitp$e6m$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu>, trom...@is05.fas.harvard.edu
(Sarah Trombley) writes:

Damn, this is becoming atvbvs with this thread.


>In article <20011020055451...@nso-fp.aol.com>,
>SWeick <swe...@aol.com> wrote:
>>In article <9qr746$bp1$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu>,
>trom...@is05.fas.harvard.edu
>>(Sarah Trombley) writes:
>>
>>>
>>The root cause of her nightmares is the uncertainty of her father
>>actually caring to take the time to come see her.
>
>No, it's that she fears she was the cause of the divorce. Her nightmare
>wasn't that he didn't show, it was that he told her that it was all her
>fault.


Hank: Gosh, you don't even see what's right in front of your face, do
you? Well, big surprise there, all you ever think about is yourself. You
get in trouble. You embarrass us with all the crazy stunts you pull, and
do I have to go on?

Buffy: No. Please don't.

Hank: You're sullen and... rude and... you're not nearly as bright as I
thought you were going to be... Hey, Buffy, let's be honest. Could you
stand to live in the same house with a daughter like that?

Buffy: Why are you saying all these things? (a tear rolls down her
cheek)

Hank: Because they're true. I think that's the least we owe one
another.

She begins to sniff and cry.

Hank: You know, I don't think it's very mature, getting blubbery when
I'm just trying to be honest. Speaking of which, I don't really get
anything out of these weekends with you. So, what do you say we just
don't do them anymore?

She stares at him in shock. He pats her on the leg.

Hank: I sure thought you'd turn out differently.

If Hank had been seeing his daughter every other weekend, would
you think that she would feel the latter parts being true. "Sometimes"
and the way Buffy said it clearly indicates that Hank coming around
was never much of a sure thing.

Joyce: Honey, a-are you worried your father isn't gonna show?

Buffy: No! N-not really. Should I be?

>>>> He only had one daughter and
>>>>his time with her should have been the most important thing in
>>>>the world. That's the responsibility you assume becoming a
>>>>parent.
>>>
>>>So he fell down once.
>>
>>
>>Once seems not enough to be causing Buffy's anxieties.
>
>Stephen, the child of the best parent in the world could easily have those
>anxieties when her parents split up. It's incredibly common.


Not arguing that. That Buffy would have the fear that her problems
as the Slayer helped cause the divorce is easily understandable.
But it was her fears that her father didn't get anything from the
weekends, that he was disappointed in how she turned out,
that he really didn't want to see her anymore, were the major
issues shown in that nightmare. It's how Buffy is different from
all those others who feared they were the problem.

All of those are fed off the feeling that Hank didn't want to be
around. Now how would she be getting that feeling if Hank
was constantly around?


>>His additional failings were the continuation of those actions. He
>>starts missing weekends.
>
>Uh, text?

Willow: And he still comes down on weekends.

Buffy: Sometimes.

I posted it from Nightmares. "Sometimes" is not a consistent
meeting on all available weekends. It clearly means that he
on occasion comes down when it was convienent. Since we've
seen nothing of Hank since WSWB, including not a single word
about him when Buffy ran away, right until he ditched her on her
birthday, we can make a reasonable conclusion that he was not
around much at all anymore.

S5 just magnified that trend.


>> Then Birthdays. Now he basically doesn't
>>even care enough to be there with his two daughters after his wife
>>dies? That's a bit more than an infrequent failure to be there.
>
>Well, obviously things changed in S5. For the stupider.


S3/S4/S5/S6, they seem to all say the same thing. Hank
just isn't around and doesn't seem to really care. They just
increased the strength of that feeling.

Now granted, the actor might not have been available, but
the writers could add a line or two every once in a while
throughout a season that mentioned Hank and Buffy doing
something together.

Personally, I hope they retcon it as Don Sample suggests.
It would fit the theme of "Oh, grow up!" if Buffy had to face
how she puts off people with her secrecy and actions.

Trying to get this into those Damn Daddies argument, we have
a string of very questionable to evil fathers. There isn't one in
the ME character set that seems to have a decent one. Hank
clearly falls into that with the likes of Trevor Lockley and Liam's
father. By his actions in S5 and S6, he's approaching Mr.
Chaulk and Magnus Bryce in terms of being evil.

Sarah Trombley

unread,
21 Oct 2001, 00:15:2321/10/2001
to
In article <20011020224526...@nso-ma.aol.com>,

You think anxieties are rational? You believe that Willow genuinely
thinks she's in danger of being forced to sing 'Madame Butterfly' without
preparing?

> "Sometimes"
>and the way Buffy said it clearly indicates that Hank coming around
>was never much of a sure thing.

And there are two possibilities here:

(1) Hank blows off planned visitation, or
(2) Buffy doesn't see him on as many weekends as she would like.

The two times we _do_ see present-day Hank, nothing about his behavior suggests
that he's regularly skipping planned visits. Joyce certainly doesn't treat
him as if she has the slightest thing to resent, and you can be goshdarned
sure that if he were skipping weekends (which means not just heartache for
Buffy, but incredible inconvenience for Joyce), she would be giving him
what for.


--Sarah T.


H.G.Hettinger

unread,
21 Oct 2001, 02:40:2521/10/2001
to
On 20 Oct 2001 16:58:27 GMT, swe...@aol.com (SWeick) wrote:

>>So, imho, the only true DD candidate to date would be English Senior
>>so far on Angel.
>
>
>Bethany's father from Untouched. Virginia's father from
>Guise will be Guise.

Yeah, I'd forgotten about those two, and I'll stand corrected as far
as Xander's dad is concerned.

Niall Harrison

unread,
21 Oct 2001, 11:39:3721/10/2001
to
Previously, on alt.tv.angel - SWeick wrote:
> In article <20011019105851...@mb-mt.aol.com>, shan...@aol.com

> (Shanna) writes:
>
>>But think of it this way, if all our characters had wholesome, loving
>>families,
>>they wouldn't have ended up where they are.
>
> You mean no loving caring family has a child who grows up to
> be a struggling actress working as an office manager?

Admittedly my knowledge of S2-S3 _Buffy_ is vague at the moment (roll on
the DVDs...), but was it ever said that Cordelia's parents were unloving
or uncaring? Bad about paying their taxes, yes, but beyond that?

> Trevor Lockley is shown as a corrupt coldhearted cop.

Huh? Corrupt, yes, but anything but coldhearted, I would have said. He
clearly loved Kate very much and was trying to do his best for her, just
in a totally inappropriate way.

Niall

--
Dive straight in at the deep end
Making you feel like there's gonna be a war.

SWeick

unread,
21 Oct 2001, 18:39:0921/10/2001
to
trom...@is05.fas.harvard.edu (Sarah Trombley) wrote:

>In article <20011020224526...@nso-ma.aol.com>,
>SWeick <swe...@aol.com> wrote:
>>In article <9qsitp$e6m$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu>,
>trom...@is05.fas.harvard.edu
>>(Sarah Trombley) writes:
>>
>>Damn, this is becoming atvbvs with this thread.

>>If Hank had been seeing his daughter every other weekend, would
>>you think that she would feel the latter parts being true.
>
>You think anxieties are rational?


No. But when you are given these fears before we get the
nightmare, they are legitimate and have some basis in reality.


You believe that Willow genuinely
>thinks she's in danger of being forced to sing 'Madame Butterfly' without
>preparing?


And that wasn't one of Willow's genuine fears of having to perform
in public? She clearly even said so when Xander had a case of the
near nudity in front of the class.


>> "Sometimes"
>>and the way Buffy said it clearly indicates that Hank coming around
>>was never much of a sure thing.
>
>And there are two possibilities here:
>
>(1) Hank blows off planned visitation, or
>(2) Buffy doesn't see him on as many weekends as she would like.


Then why is she concerned about his coming?


>The two times we _do_ see present-day Hank, nothing about his behavior
>suggests
>that he's regularly skipping planned visits.


Or that he had visits.

Now granted, it isn't something they really were concerned in showing
one way or the other.


Joyce certainly doesn't treat
>him as if she has the slightest thing to resent, and you can be goshdarned
>sure that if he were skipping weekends (which means not just heartache for
>Buffy, but incredible inconvenience for Joyce), she would be giving him
>what for.


Yet when he did in Helpless, Joyce wasn't shown as upset at Hank.

SWeick

unread,
21 Oct 2001, 19:32:0221/10/2001
to
Niall Harrison s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk wrote:

>Previously, on alt.tv.angel - SWeick wrote:
>> In article <20011019105851...@mb-mt.aol.com>, shan...@aol.com
>> (Shanna) writes:
>>
>>>But think of it this way, if all our characters had wholesome, loving
>>>families,
>>>they wouldn't have ended up where they are.
>>
>> You mean no loving caring family has a child who grows up to
>> be a struggling actress working as an office manager?
>
>Admittedly my knowledge of S2-S3 _Buffy_ is vague at the moment (roll on
>the DVDs...), but was it ever said that Cordelia's parents were unloving
>or uncaring? Bad about paying their taxes, yes, but beyond that?
>
>> Trevor Lockley is shown as a corrupt coldhearted cop.
>
>Huh? Corrupt, yes, but anything but coldhearted, I would have said.


I suggest rewatching Sense and Sensitivity then. Coldhearted
seems a fair evaluation.


He
>clearly loved Kate very much and was trying to do his best for her, just
>in a totally inappropriate way.


He thought money was the answer when Kate never cared about
that. I hardly consider him a decent father.

Niall Harrison

unread,
21 Oct 2001, 21:07:1221/10/2001
to
Previously, on alt.tv.angel - SWeick wrote:
> Niall Harrison s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk wrote:
>>Previously, on alt.tv.angel - SWeick wrote:
>>
>>> Trevor Lockley is shown as a corrupt coldhearted cop.
>>
>>Huh? Corrupt, yes, but anything but coldhearted, I would have said.
>
> I suggest rewatching Sense and Sensitivity then. Coldhearted
> seems a fair evaluation.

'Coldhearted' suggests he didn't feel emotions. I'd say he felt them, but
wasn't comfortable dealing with them and so repressed them or shunted them
aside - and tried to make everyone else do the same.

>>He
>>clearly loved Kate very much and was trying to do his best for her, just
>>in a totally inappropriate way.
>
> He thought money was the answer when Kate never cared about
> that.

But he was *trying*. He was just trying in the wrong way.

> I hardly consider him a decent father.

I wouldn't say he was a 'good' father. But neither would I say he was a
terrible one. He was somewhere in between; a man who was trying to do the
right thing for his daughter, but didn't - or couldn't - realise that what
he thought was the right thing wasn't what she needed most.

Niall

--
Cast me adrift on a dream.

Bethany Weber

unread,
21 Oct 2001, 22:36:3921/10/2001
to
David Cheatham <da...@creeknet.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.163b74063...@News.CIS.DFN.DE>...

Dumb question -- when did Cordelia's Mom call?

Bethany

SWeick

unread,
21 Oct 2001, 23:26:3721/10/2001
to
In article <7aeb402e.01102...@posting.google.com>,
bethan...@hotmail.com (Bethany Weber) writes:

>Subject: Re: Cut Scenes from Carpe Noctem Script
>From: bethan...@hotmail.com (Bethany Weber)
>Date: 21 Oct 2001 19:36:39 -0700


Sense and Sensitivity (transcript)

Cordy: "No! (Angel looks at her) I don't care what horrible thing
is about to happen. (Sits down and starts flipping through a
magazine) Asteroids are hurtling towards earth. *Unspeakable* evil
is rising the San Fernando Valley. Jar-Jar is getting his *own* talk
show. Whatever - I don't want to hear about it. Not until you ask us
how it went."

Angel: "Call your mother back. She phoned saying she'd like to speak
with you. - And what are you talking about?"

SWeick

unread,
21 Oct 2001, 23:26:3721/10/2001
to
In article <9qvrg0$d8d$1...@news.ox.ac.uk>, Niall Harrison
<s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk> writes:

>
>Previously, on alt.tv.angel - SWeick wrote:
>> Niall Harrison s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk wrote:
>>>Previously, on alt.tv.angel - SWeick wrote:
>>>
>>>> Trevor Lockley is shown as a corrupt coldhearted cop.
>>>
>>>Huh? Corrupt, yes, but anything but coldhearted, I would have said.
>>
>> I suggest rewatching Sense and Sensitivity then. Coldhearted
>> seems a fair evaluation.
>
>'Coldhearted' suggests he didn't feel emotions. I'd say he felt them, but
>wasn't comfortable dealing with them and so repressed them or shunted them
>aside - and tried to make everyone else do the same.


Lacking warmth, unfriendly, callous, etc. Coldhearted might
be a touch hard, but not inaccurate.

From Sense and Sensitivity (transcripts)

Cut to the police station. White haired guy in uniform walks in.

Kate: "Dad."

Lockley: "Katie."

Kate: "I saw you. Where you planning on saying hi?"

Lockley: "I figured you're working. (Kate nods) I'm not here very
long anyway (pulls out a manila folder) just dropping off some
pension forms up in records. If you think you got a lot of red tape
on the job, wait 'til you retire."

Kate: "Harlan says their throwing you a send-off at the Blue Bar."

Lockley: "Just some guys trying to give me a hard time. Not a big
deal."

Kate: "Well, he said I should say something, you know - just a few
words to mark the occasion, - seeing as you're my father."

Lockley: "That'll be fine. Don't got to any trouble."

Kate: "It's no trouble really."

Officer to Kate: "Detective, you got a call on 329."

Kate to her father: "Thanks. - I guess I better.."

Lockley walks away: "Yeah."

Kate looks after him for a moment then goes to pick up the phone.


The bartender sets an open bottle of beer in front of her and Kate
reaches for some money.

Bartender: "No, no, your dad paid for the drink."

Kate takes her drink and sits down at her dad's table.

Lockley: "Tony Papazian, huh?"

Kate: "Yeah."

Lockley: "Well, congratulations."

Kate: "Thanks."

Lockley lifts his glass: "Here is hoping the bust doesn't fall apart
before you finish filing the paperwork. Damn lawyers, huh?"

Kate: "Yeah."

Lockley sees a guy coming up to their table: "Harlan."

Harlan drops a page of paper in front of Kate: "You see this?"

Kate looks at it: "Sensitivity training?"

Harlan: "Everyone's got to take it. Word is, it's because of what
you did to Papazian."

Kate: "What I did? - Oh, somebody is going to answer for this."

Harlan: "Think they'll make us hug?"

Kate hands the page back to him: "I'm not hugging you, sweat-boy."

Lockley: "Glad I'm getting out. In my day we didn't need any damn
sensitivity.'


Kate walks over to her father and kisses him on the cheek: "Happy
retirement, Daddy."

Lockley gesturing at Angel: "Who's this?"

Kate: "Oh, this is Angel. He's a friend. Angel, this is my father."

Angel shakes her father's hand: "Hello, Mr. Lockley.
Congratulations."

Lockley: "For what? All I did was live this long and not get shot."

Kate: "Why do you do that?"

Lockley: "Do what?"

Kate shaking her head: "Pretend important things don't matter?"

Lockley: "So, - Angel, - how long you been seeing Katie?"

Angel: "We're, uhm, we're pretty new friends."

Lockley: "Well, good to see her out with a man. I was starting to
wonder if she didn't lean into another direction altogether."


Lockley: "Katie. (Angel hears them and turns in the doorway to watch
and listen) Got your messages on my machine."

Kate: "Yeah, that was kind of a bizarre night. I.."

Lockley: "Katie.. - Don't - don't say anything. You make an idiot
out of yourself, embarrass me in front of the guys. You don't bring
that up ever again. As far as I'm concerned - it didn't happen."

Kate watches as her dad turns and walks out.

Hermetically insensitive at the very least you would agree.
Those do not make good parents.

Kate: He forgot how to be anything but a cop a long time ago. And maybe, -
maybe that's why I became a cop too. - After mom died, you stopped ,
you know? It was like you couldn't stand the sight of me. Her face,
her eyes looking up at you. - But big girls don't cry, right? You
said, gone's gone, and there is no use wallowing. - Worms and dirt
and nothing, forever. Not one word about a better place. You
couldn't even tell a scared little girl a beautiful lie. (Sobs) God,
I wanted to drink with you. I wanted you to laugh with me just once,
the way you laughed with Jimmy here, or Frank.

Kate: Well, I can't anymore, dad. I can't campaign for the office
of your beloved daughter. You closed your heart after mom left us and
that's it.


>>>He
>>>clearly loved Kate very much and was trying to do his best for her, just
>>>in a totally inappropriate way.
>>
>> He thought money was the answer when Kate never cared about
>> that.
>
>But he was *trying*. He was just trying in the wrong way.


You can basically say that there are no such thing as bad
fathers because other than Magnus and Bethany's, they
all 'tried'. In whatever weird and inappropriate ways.

Actually, wait, Bethany's dad tried. Damn him to hell
pervert that he was. Guess it's only poor Magnus.

Wait, he actually loved and cared for Virginia, cause
otherwise it wouldn't have been a great sacrifice.

Guess there are no Damn Daddies.


>> I hardly consider him a decent father.
>
>I wouldn't say he was a 'good' father. But neither would I say he was a
>terrible one.


No? I'd say just one step below.


He was somewhere in between; a man who was trying to do the
>right thing for his daughter, but didn't - or couldn't - realise that what
>he thought was the right thing wasn't what she needed most.


Being a crooked cop?

Don Sample

unread,
21 Oct 2001, 23:29:1021/10/2001
to
In article <7aeb402e.01102...@posting.google.com>, Bethany
Weber <bethan...@hotmail.com> wrote:

I forget which one, but during a season 1 episode Angel tells Cordy
that her mother phoned.

Niall Harrison

unread,
22 Oct 2001, 08:32:2122/10/2001
to
Previously, on alt.tv.angel - SWeick wrote:
> In article <9qvrg0$d8d$1...@news.ox.ac.uk>, Niall Harrison
> <s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk> writes:
>>Previously, on alt.tv.angel - SWeick wrote:
>>> Niall Harrison s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk wrote:
>>>>Previously, on alt.tv.angel - SWeick wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Trevor Lockley is shown as a corrupt coldhearted cop.
>>>>
>>>>Huh? Corrupt, yes, but anything but coldhearted, I would have said.
>>>
>>> I suggest rewatching Sense and Sensitivity then. Coldhearted
>>> seems a fair evaluation.
>>
>>'Coldhearted' suggests he didn't feel emotions. I'd say he felt them, but
>>wasn't comfortable dealing with them and so repressed them or shunted them
>>aside - and tried to make everyone else do the same.
>
> Lacking warmth, unfriendly, callous, etc. Coldhearted might
> be a touch hard, but not inaccurate.

http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=coldhearted

"Devoid of sympathy or feeling".

Since I maintain that Trevor had feelings, but worked hard at repressing
them, I'll stick with my 'coldhearted is inaccurate' position.

> From Sense and Sensitivity (transcripts)

And from 'The Prodigal':

---

ANGEL
Mister Lockley. I'm Angel. We met
at your retirement party. I'm a
friend of your daughter's.

Recognition first, then concern flashes subtly and quickly over Trevor's
face.

TREVOR
Katie? Did something -

---

Concern, quickly hidden. He had feelings. And his misplaced belief in
what Kate needs:

---

TREVOR
You mean you were afraid she wasn't
crooked like her old man?

The Suit smiles at that.

TREVOR
She's not. And she'll never have to
be. I've seen to that.

---

As to the quotes from S&S-

> Kate: "Why do you do that?"
>
> Lockley: "Do what?"
>
> Kate shaking her head: "Pretend important things don't matter?"

Very perceptive of her, I'd say. He *pretends* they don't matter. She
can see through his pretense.

> Kate: Well, I can't anymore, dad. I can't campaign for the office
> of your beloved daughter. You closed your heart after mom left us and
> that's it.

...And there's the reason behind it all. He's emotionally a mess. But he
tries to improve.

>>>>He
>>>>clearly loved Kate very much and was trying to do his best for her, just
>>>>in a totally inappropriate way.
>>>
>>> He thought money was the answer when Kate never cared about
>>> that.
>>
>>But he was *trying*. He was just trying in the wrong way.
>
> You can basically say that there are no such thing as bad
> fathers because other than Magnus and Bethany's, they
> all 'tried'. In whatever weird and inappropriate ways.

Because obviously, sexually abusing your daughter, or keeping her locked
up for her entire life with the intention of sacrificing her to a demon
shows that you have your daughter's interests at heart.

Oh, wait, no, it doesn't.

Trevor, on the other hand, did have Kate's interests at heart. His
dabbling in crime was an attempt to provide for Kate. He was a screwed-up
man, sure, but I don't see him as fitting the 'all dads in the MEverse
suck' model that you seem to be proposing. He was definitely trying to do
better by the time of 'The Prodigal'...he just couldn't work out *what* he
should be doing properly.

>>> I hardly consider him a decent father.
>>
>>I wouldn't say he was a 'good' father. But neither would I say he was a
>>terrible one.
>
> No? I'd say just one step below.

One step below terrible? Wow, you're harsh.

Niall

--
Living in amnesia valley.

SWeick

unread,
22 Oct 2001, 11:12:3522/10/2001
to
Niall Harrison s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk wrote:


>Previously, on alt.tv.angel - SWeick wrote:
>> In article <9qvrg0$d8d$1...@news.ox.ac.uk>, Niall Harrison
>> <s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk> writes:
>>>Previously, on alt.tv.angel - SWeick wrote:
>>>> Niall Harrison s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk wrote:
>>>>>Previously, on alt.tv.angel - SWeick wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Trevor Lockley is shown as a corrupt coldhearted cop.
>>>>>
>>>>>Huh? Corrupt, yes, but anything but coldhearted, I would have said.
>>>>
>>>> I suggest rewatching Sense and Sensitivity then. Coldhearted
>>>> seems a fair evaluation.
>>>
>>>'Coldhearted' suggests he didn't feel emotions. I'd say he felt them, but
>>>wasn't comfortable dealing with them and so repressed them or shunted them
>>>aside - and tried to make everyone else do the same.
>>
>> Lacking warmth, unfriendly, callous, etc. Coldhearted might
>> be a touch hard, but not inaccurate.
>
>http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=coldhearted

Oxford Desk Dictionary:

Adj: lacking affection or warmth; unfriendly.

Websters New Univeral Unabridge:

A: destitute of passion; unsympathetic

Sorry, but Trevor's actions fall within the parameters.


>"Devoid of sympathy or feeling".
>
>Since I maintain that Trevor had feelings, but worked hard at repressing
>them, I'll stick with my 'coldhearted is inaccurate' position.


If this is the basis of your argument, that your dictionary doesn't
match mine, I think there isn't anything to argue. According to the
one I'm usings, Trevor is shown to lack warmth and is very unfriendly.

If you prefer another word, fine. But to claim that he isn't a bad
father because you don't like one dictionary's definition is,
well, weird.


>> From Sense and Sensitivity (transcripts)
>
>And from 'The Prodigal':
>
>---
>
>ANGEL
>Mister Lockley. I'm Angel. We met
>at your retirement party. I'm a
>friend of your daughter's.
>
>Recognition first, then concern flashes subtly and quickly over Trevor's
>face.
>
>TREVOR
>Katie? Did something -


Which proves he's not a nutcase, not that he's not a very poor father.

Bad fathers can care if their kids are killed or severly injured. Most
humans are concerned about marginal friends and acquantances
getting hurt or killed.


>---
>
>Concern, quickly hidden. He had feelings. And his misplaced belief in
>what Kate needs:


Bethany's father has feelings too. They just don't include
empathy for his daughter's. Similar to Trevor. Dissimilar in
Trevor at least didn't need to control Kate.


>---
>
>TREVOR
>You mean you were afraid she wasn't
>crooked like her old man?
>
>The Suit smiles at that.
>
>TREVOR
>She's not. And she'll never have to
>be. I've seen to that.


You do realize that in this statement he believes that she would
have to become corrupt if he hadn't?

You do realize that in that episode the *only* reason Trevor
was around Kate were illegal activities on his part? She mistakenly
thought that he *cared*? That was what Angel was calling him on?
That the best we can say is that Trevor thought giving her *money*
was caring?

The Prodigal makes Trevor out to be an even worse father than
S&S does.

Rewatch the hotdog scene. See what Kate is thinking verses
what Trevor is doing. Look at what Kate wanted. It wasn't money.


>As to the quotes from S&S-
>
>> Kate: "Why do you do that?"
>>
>> Lockley: "Do what?"
>>
>> Kate shaking her head: "Pretend important things don't matter?"
>
>Very perceptive of her, I'd say. He *pretends* they don't matter. She
>can see through his pretense.


Or that she's misreading, because the important things, such as
love and affection, don't seem to matter to him.

Rewatch the ending.


>> Kate: Well, I can't anymore, dad. I can't campaign for the office
>> of your beloved daughter. You closed your heart after mom left us and
>> that's it.
>
>...And there's the reason behind it all. He's emotionally a mess. But he
>tries to improve.


By lying to her? Thinking that he can buy her affections after basically
ignoring her?

Where is he trying to improve emotionally? And how can emotionally
messed up people be good parents? Average to fair, maybe, but
good?


>>>>>He
>>>>>clearly loved Kate very much and was trying to do his best for her, just
>>>>>in a totally inappropriate way.
>>>>
>>>> He thought money was the answer when Kate never cared about
>>>> that.
>>>
>>>But he was *trying*. He was just trying in the wrong way.
>>
>> You can basically say that there are no such thing as bad
>> fathers because other than Magnus and Bethany's, they
>> all 'tried'. In whatever weird and inappropriate ways.
>
>Because obviously, sexually abusing your daughter, or keeping her locked
>up for her entire life with the intention of sacrificing her to a demon
>shows that you have your daughter's interests at heart.


No, but how much different from that to the emotional abuse of
totally ignoring your daughter? So much so that when she got
fired from her job, she tried to kill herself?


>Oh, wait, no, it doesn't.


In claiming that Trevor, of all people, wasn't a bad father, you have to
wonder.

You'd be better off arguing Liam's dad wasn't bad considering
the times he was living in.

So far, Gunn's dad is the only one we can have any hope for at all.


>Trevor, on the other hand, did have Kate's interests at heart. His
>dabbling in crime was an attempt to provide for Kate.


How? Kate was fully employed at the time. She had
her career. She had no family. Her expenses were minimal.
Her lifetime waredrobe expenses are probably Cordy's annual.

I'm sorry, but he did it for her makes no textual sense. The
only way it could would be for him to project his desires
on her.


He was a screwed-up
>man, sure, but I don't see him as fitting the 'all dads in the MEverse
>suck' model that you seem to be proposing.


Other than a hope for Gunn's dad, I think it's been *proven*.

That you would claim that Trevor didn't suck as a father shows just
how badly they've done dads.

Theory Without Proof: Other than Greenwalt, these are
all young people. None of the men have been fathers, of fathers for
any length of time. They only know it from the child's perspective.

And it shows.


He was definitely trying to do
>better by the time of 'The Prodigal'...he just couldn't work out *what* he
>should be doing properly.


Time runs out on us all.

He failed as a father in her youth, as an adolecent, and then as an
adult.


>>>> I hardly consider him a decent father.
>>>
>>>I wouldn't say he was a 'good' father. But neither would I say he was a
>>>terrible one.
>>
>> No? I'd say just one step below.
>
>One step below terrible? Wow, you're harsh.


And you're unbelievably soft.

Terrible
Bad
Average
Fair
Good

Bad looks one step below, doesn't it?

Defend Trevor as Average, Fair, or Good from the text.

Niall Harrison

unread,
22 Oct 2001, 12:23:1522/10/2001
to
Previously, on alt.tv.angel - SWeick wrote:
> Niall Harrison s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk wrote:
>>Previously, on alt.tv.angel - SWeick wrote:
>>> In article <9qvrg0$d8d$1...@news.ox.ac.uk>, Niall Harrison
>>> <s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk> writes:

<snip>

>>TREVOR
>>Katie? Did something -
>
> Which proves he's not a nutcase, not that he's not a very poor father.
>
> Bad fathers can care if their kids are killed or severly injured.

Right, we agree that he cares about Kate then. For a while there, I
thought you were trying to say he didn't.

>>> Kate: Well, I can't anymore, dad. I can't campaign for the office
>>> of your beloved daughter. You closed your heart after mom left us and
>>> that's it.
>>
>>...And there's the reason behind it all. He's emotionally a mess. But he
>>tries to improve.
>
> By lying to her? Thinking that he can buy her affections after basically
> ignoring her?

I've said he does the wrong thing. But he tries, nonetheless.

> Where is he trying to improve emotionally? And how can emotionally
> messed up people be good parents? Average to fair, maybe, but
> good?

Where did I ever say he was a good father? All I'm trying to argue is
that he wasn't a totally hopeless case.

>>He was a screwed-up
>>man, sure, but I don't see him as fitting the 'all dads in the MEverse
>>suck' model that you seem to be proposing.
>
> Other than a hope for Gunn's dad, I think it's been *proven*.

I haven't seen any convincing evidence for Cordelia's dad being a bad
father, either. Crooked, yes, but no sign that he didn't love Cordelia,
or didn't care for her.

Depends on your criteria for 'bad father', I suppose. To me, someone
could be a criminal and still be a good father; the two are not
inextricably linked.

>>He was definitely trying to do
>>better by the time of 'The Prodigal'...he just couldn't work out *what* he
>>should be doing properly.
>
> Time runs out on us all.
>
> He failed as a father in her youth, as an adolecent, and then as an
> adult.

Yeah. And then he *realised that*, and in his own misguided way, tried to
make amends.

I'm not saying he wasn't a bad father, period. I'm saying he realised
what a bad father he'd been, tried to make amends, but still couldn't do
it right. I happen to think that trying still counts for something,
though.

>>>>> I hardly consider him a decent father.
>>>>
>>>>I wouldn't say he was a 'good' father. But neither would I say he was a
>>>>terrible one.
>>>
>>> No? I'd say just one step below.
>>
>>One step below terrible? Wow, you're harsh.
>
> And you're unbelievably soft.
>
> Terrible
> Bad
> Average
> Fair
> Good
>
> Bad looks one step below, doesn't it?

lol. We're using different scales. I put good at the top, so to me, 'one
step below terrible' would correspond to something like 'abysmal'.

(I also think your scale is weighted towards the negative; 'good' and
'excellent' would correspond better to 'bad' and 'terrible', IMO.
Alternatively, 'poor' and 'bad' would correspond to 'fair' and 'good').

Niall

--
Look! There's a rhythmic ceremonial ritual coming!

Linda

unread,
22 Oct 2001, 14:16:0722/10/2001
to

"Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
news:211020012327423180%dsa...@synapse.net...

> In article <7aeb402e.01102...@posting.google.com>, Bethany
> Weber <bethan...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > David Cheatham <da...@creeknet.com> wrote in message
> > news:<MPG.163b74063...@News.CIS.DFN.DE>...
> > > SWeick <swe...@aol.com> says...
> > > > The absence of fathers also leads to some questioning of Daddies.
> > > > Who was the father of the unborn girl in Judgment? Why isn't
> > > > he there helping? Why no mention of Faith's. Cordy's mom
> > > > called, but nothing about her father.
> > >
> > > Cordy's father is in jail. Presumably, she's calling him, not the other
> > > way around.
> > >
> > > Anyone know how long you get for tax evasion, roughly?
> >
> > Dumb question -- when did Cordelia's Mom call?
> >
> > Bethany
>
> I forget which one, but during a season 1 episode Angel tells Cordy
> that her mother phoned.

Okay, this is just weird - Don forgets but SWeick remembers?

Don - are you losing your touch or just a little lazy today?

--
Best Regards,

Linda

Lindsey - "How did you think this would end?" - The Trial


Don Sample

unread,
22 Oct 2001, 15:13:0922/10/2001
to
In article <HnZA7.785$_p.6...@news.easynews.com>, Linda
<li...@DELETESPAMsusieword.com> wrote:

It's _Angel_ I watch it, but I don't pay as much attention to it as I
do to Buffy.

Terry McNeal

unread,
22 Oct 2001, 18:10:4222/10/2001
to
Spoilers for "The Prodigal" and from the TV Guide synopsis of
"Fredless." Baseless speculation on the future of _Angel_.

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On 22 Oct 2001 15:12:35 GMT, swe...@aol.com (SWeick) wrote:

>Niall Harrison s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk wrote:
>>
>>He was a screwed-up
>>man, sure, but I don't see him as fitting the 'all dads in the MEverse
>>suck' model that you seem to be proposing.
>
>Other than a hope for Gunn's dad, I think it's been *proven*.

TV Guide's synopsis notwithstanding, there's hope for Fred's father
(and mother) for a few more hours anyway. And certainly Angel (and
Cordelia) will be as fine an example of a father (and mother) as ME
has ever projected. Eventually.

Terry

Niall Harrison

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22 Oct 2001, 20:47:2222/10/2001
to

Whilst browing City Of Angel, I came across this:

From http://www.cityofangel.com/behindTheScenes/bts/jossSpot2.html

"The underlying fact that *everyone* seems to have father-issues is a
recurring joke among cast and crew."

Not sure what that says about anything, but hey.

Niall

--
After the flood
All the colours came out.

Terry McNeal

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22 Oct 2001, 22:32:2722/10/2001
to
Spoilers for "Fredless."

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On Tue, 23 Oct 2001 00:47:22 +0000 (UTC), Niall Harrison
<s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk> wrote:

>Whilst browing City Of Angel, I came across this:
>
>From http://www.cityofangel.com/behindTheScenes/bts/jossSpot2.html
>
>"The underlying fact that *everyone* seems to have father-issues is a
>recurring joke among cast and crew."
>
>Not sure what that says about anything, but hey.

Well, they broke the chain in "Fredless." Non-divorced, fully
functional parents, not using their kid for their own agenda.

Terry

SWeick

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23 Oct 2001, 00:43:5523/10/2001
to
Terry McNeal tymc...@remove.this.hotmail.com wrote:


Well, I didn't read the synopsis, but the episode had him
as a good father. (Though one could argue that leaving Fred in this
pecular world isn't a good thing.)

Personally I thought I had step into a weird episode of King of the Hill.

And certainly Angel (and
>Cordelia) will be as fine an example of a father (and mother) as ME
>has ever projected. Eventually.


Oh, most definitely.

SWeick

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23 Oct 2001, 00:47:0823/10/2001
to
Niall Harrison s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk wrote:


Sort of like how every relationship on that other show is destine
for bad things.


>Not sure what that says about anything, but hey.


Actually, I'm suprised they didn't take the time to use that. Wes,
Angel, and Cordy projecting their problems onto Fred's father would
have been an interesting concept.

Hell, I'm just glad they finally broke the pattern.

Linda

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23 Oct 2001, 10:52:1723/10/2001
to

"Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
news:221020011510245887%dsa...@synapse.net...

LOL - Okay, that explains it then :-)

Tim Bruening

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29 Oct 2001, 00:57:2929/10/2001
to

David Adrien Tanguay wrote:

> SWeick wrote:
> > >Has Buffy even seen him since running of with his
> > >secretary? Did she have a bad skin condition?
> >
> > Starting a new life with a new wife and ignoring your daughters who
> > are living with their mother is even more wrong and neglectful. Ignoring
> > them after their mother is dead is just evil. Plain and simple.
>
> I think you missed the point: Is Hank still a human? If he's a vampire,
> courtesy of that secretary, then ME isn't using him to say anything about
> dads, they're just continuing the Buffy torture.

What indication is there that the secretary is a vampire?


Tim Bruening

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30 Oct 2001, 03:13:5230/10/2001
to
Billy Spoilers:

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In this episode, the half-demon Angel released from Hell (Billy Blim)
goes around causing men to attack women. He brings their internal rage
to the surface. However, he doesn't affect Angel. Angel claims that
that's because he left behind hatred long ago, and didn't hate the many
people he tormented when he was evil. That surprised me. Angel's
actions toward Buffy during the Angelus Arc gave me the impression that
he hated her (for having made him feel human). Also, it sure seemed to
me like Angel hated Wolfram and Hart during his Beige phase last season.

Why do the PTB send Cordelia the vision of the Billy induced murder one
week late? Why don't they send the vision before the murder takes
place?

Why doesn't Angel use the key/coin device (That Vision Thing) to visit
Skip's dimension to ask him for help in stopping Billy?

If Billy had touched Spike, would Spike have attacked Buffy? After all,
he has hated her in the past.

Great moments: Cordelia learning sword fighting from Angel, and putting
the practice sword to Angel's throat.

Gavin Park beating up Lilah.

Angel being able to enter Billy's mansion because he's part demon.

Cordelia taking a stunner and a crossbow to hunt Billy.

Cordelia and Lilah discussing fashion.

Cordelia persuading "vicious bitch" Lilah that she shouldn't allow Billy
to get away with harming her.

Wesley stalking Fred.

Gunn trying to protect Fred, then succumbing to Billy's blood and
attacking Fred, so Fred knocks him out.

Fred knocking out Wesley with a fire extinguisher.

Angel fighting Billy.

Lilah shooting Billy.

Tim Bruening

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1 Nov 2001, 02:47:3401/11/2001
to
Billy and That Vision Thing Spoilers:

to the surface. However, he doesn't affect women. Why doesn't his
Congressman Uncle Nathan Blim hire a bunch of female body guards to keep
him in his mansion?

Billy doesn't affect Angel. Angel claims that that's because he left


behind hatred long ago, and didn't hate the many people he tormented
when he was evil. That surprised me. Angel's actions toward Buffy
during the Angelus Arc gave me the impression that he hated her (for
having made him feel human). Also, it sure seemed to me like Angel
hated Wolfram and Hart during his Beige phase last season.

Why do the PTB send Cordelia the vision of the Billy induced murder one
week late? Why don't they send the vision before the murder takes
place?

Why doesn't Angel use the key/coin device (That Vision Thing) to visit
Skip's dimension to ask him for help in stopping Billy?

In the five weeks since Angel released Billy into the world, why didn't
Angel Investigations research him thoroughly? After all, Angel and
Wesley had gotten a good look at Billy, so could have read books and
scoured the Internet looking for his picture.

pi...@slip.net

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1 Nov 2001, 03:18:0401/11/2001
to

Tim Bruening wrote:


It doesn't seem like anyone is all that diligent about keeping billy at
bay. It's more like they'll protect him but they just don't want him
making trouble for the family. damned decadent rich kenned...er,
blims... :-)


> Billy doesn't affect Angel. Angel claims that that's because he left
> behind hatred long ago, and didn't hate the many people he tormented
> when he was evil. That surprised me. Angel's actions toward Buffy
> during the Angelus Arc gave me the impression that he hated her (for
> having made him feel human). Also, it sure seemed to me like Angel
> hated Wolfram and Hart during his Beige phase last season.
>


I don't know if Angelleus ever hated buffy. It was obsession mixed with
a basically cruel desire to screw with her head. His behavior towards
buffy was very much like the accounts of how he treated Drusilla.

The beige thing was much more like hatred. He wanted to destroy them
just to destroy them; with buffy, the destruction was motivated by a
sick pleasure he derived from torment. It's a fine disctinction, but
there definitely seems to be one.


> Why do the PTB send Cordelia the vision of the Billy induced murder one
> week late? Why don't they send the vision before the murder takes
> place?
>


You got me. Unless that's there way of showing their displeasure at
Angel & co's release of billy. Or maybe in their wisdom, they didn't
think there was much the team could do until the time they sent the
vision.


> Why doesn't Angel use the key/coin device (That Vision Thing) to visit
> Skip's dimension to ask him for help in stopping Billy?
>


Well, billy was his mess. Maybe he felt he had an obligation to fix it
himself. Also, skip really doesn't look like he could blend in LA all
that easily (true the same could be said of the host...). And then
there is the very legitimate concern that skip might not be all that
happy to see angel again...


> In the five weeks since Angel released Billy into the world, why didn't
> Angel Investigations research him thoroughly? After all, Angel and
> Wesley had gotten a good look at Billy, so could have read books and
> scoured the Internet looking for his picture.
>


Billy looked like a non-descript 20 something white male. I suggest you
try to look on the net for photos/biographies of some random guy on the
street whose name you don't even know without even a photograph of him.
And even if you did have a photograph, where would you even begin to
look for matching images. It's one of those things that's easier said
than done. It's worse than a needle in a haystack.


The Electric Frog

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1 Nov 2001, 07:35:5701/11/2001
to

>In the five weeks since Angel released Billy into the world, why didn't
>Angel Investigations research him thoroughly? After all, Angel and
>Wesley had gotten a good look at Billy, so could have read books and
>scoured the Internet looking for his picture.
>

How old was Billy, he might have been hell a 1000 years

Tim Bruening

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2 Nov 2001, 02:21:0102/11/2001
to

The Electric Frog wrote:

There are lots of old demons in books belonging to Giles and Wesley, so even
a 1,000 year old Billy would likely be findable.

Also, AI could break into Lilah's files to find out what she knows about
Billy.


Tim Bruening

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20 Nov 2001, 05:29:4420/11/2001
to
Billy Spoilers:

In this episode, the half-demon Angel released from Hell (Billy Blim)


goes around causing men to attack women. He brings their internal rage

to the surface. However, he doesn't affect Angel. Angel claims that


that's because he left behind hatred long ago, and didn't hate the many
people he tormented when he was evil. That surprised me. Angel's
actions toward Buffy during the Angelus Arc gave me the impression that
he hated her (for having made him feel human). Also, it sure seemed to
me like Angel hated Wolfram and Hart during his Beige phase last season.

Why do the PTB send Cordelia the vision of the Billy induced murder one


week late? Why don't they send the vision before the murder takes
place?

Why doesn't Angel use the key/coin device (That Vision Thing) to visit


Skip's dimension to ask him for help in stopping Billy?

If Billy had touched Spike, would Spike have attacked Buffy? After all,

Tim Bruening

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20 Nov 2001, 05:29:5020/11/2001
to
Billy Spoilers:

IG88 wrote:

> Too bad Billy's power wasn't to make women get into catfights!
>
> Imagine Cordy and Fred pulling each other's hair and ripping
> each other's clothes off!
>
> Wesley and Gunn would probably get front row seats

Or better yet, a Cordelia/Lilah catfight!

Tim Bruening

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16 Jan 2002, 00:40:4716/01/2002
to

The Electric Frog wrote:

There are lots of old demons in books belonging to Giles and Wesley, so

Tim Bruening

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22 Oct 2005, 14:06:2222/10/2005
to

In this episode, the half-demon Angel released from Hell (Billy Blim)


goes around causing men to attack women. He brings their internal rage

to the surface. However, he doesn't affect women. Why doesn't his
Congressman Uncle Nathan Blim hire a bunch of female body guards to keep
him in his mansion?

Billy doesn't affect Angel. Angel claims that that's because he left


behind hatred long ago, and didn't hate the many people he tormented
when he was evil. That surprised me. Angel's actions toward Buffy
during the Angelus Arc gave me the impression that he hated her (for
having made him feel human). Also, it sure seemed to me like Angel

hated Wolfram and Hart during his Beige phase in the previous season.

Why do the PTB send Cordelia the vision of the Billy induced murder one
week late? Why don't they send the vision before the murder takes
place?

Why doesn't Angel use the key/coin device (That Vision Thing) to visit
Skip's dimension to ask him for help in stopping Billy?

In the five weeks since Angel released Billy into the world, why didn't

Tim Bruening

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3 Mar 2006, 01:41:5303/03/2006
to

Espen Schjønberg

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3 Mar 2006, 10:57:5303/03/2006
to


I think the whole episode is a mistake. I mean, what Angel does, is
negotiating with terrorists! He gives them what they want! And on the
way, he beats up /kills persons /demons on the same side as himself! He
is totally unable to find a _good_ solution. Then he finds the worst one.

And then the writers make him obscenely lucky at the end of the episode,
where he gets the chance to kill the person W&H used as a weapon against
him. But this possibility came out of the blue, there was no way he
could have planned this.

Angel behaves totally like a loose cannon in Billy.

--
Espen

Espen Schjønberg

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4 Mar 2006, 09:17:0404/03/2006
to

Of course, I was talking about That Vision Thing here, but I am sure you
noticed.

So, everybody agrees with me then, as there are no protests?

Good.

That Vision Thing sucks beyond repair, and is officially not a good episode.

--
Espen

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