THe B * (!t Sid# of: Spin The Bottle.
SWeick
airport at 3:00 AM, but who needs sleep? And no problems
taping Angel at his place, cause Direct TV.
The Teaser comes through loud and clear despite the
bad weather, but then during the third commercial,
things go all blotchy, turns black with the annoying
"Searching for satellite signal
To access related utilities, press Select"
and in between getting that with getting this
Garble89*&$&&8)##_$* Lorne :" Cut to the Cordelia Chase" *#*$H
Gunn: "No Good, Symbol on the floor" *#%&%^(#& Lorne:"My first
reading since" #&H*(ERHSD**($&HHF*(O Fred:"May the words
please God" (&@#!~@#($)%&& one brief moment of clarity
I'll get to in a minute *%&#(%_)()( Cordy:"...kidnapping a minor."
$&(#^^%))@
Just in time to get the commercials clean and clear. And
I got the rest of the episode on tape usable.
But you know what really made me want to go out and
dodge the hail and tear down the stupid satellite dish and
stomp on it till it screams? What makes me want to got
buy a shotgun and shoot every DirectTV satellite dish
I can find? What made me really really mad?
Cordy: "I wanted to cleanup". *%&$& shoulder shot of
Cordy in a towel $*(&#%& and a FRIGGIN PICASSO
VERSION OF CORDY STANDING IN THE TOWEL!
AAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGRRRRRRRHHHH!
I *HATE* DIRECT TV. YOU BASTARD! MAY YOU BE SENT
TO A HELL FORCE TO HEAR DAWN SCREAMING "get out!
GET OUT! *GET* *OUT!" REPEATIVELY FOR ALL OF ETERNITY!
BASTARD!
Yes. I. Will. Wait. For. The. Rerun. To. Retape. It.
Mutter mutter mutter.
A Bottle Show is when the producers make a show that
uses just standing sets and for the most part only the
full caste to tell a story. It's cheapness allows for the
expensive episodes to be given more money.
Usually such dreck is dumped on the lap of some poor
low level schmuck on the writing staff. It's a filler transitional
episode, and it usually gets blasted by the viewers cause
it really isn't a good episode of that series.
It's nice to see that the big boys are willing to take the
crap shovelling duties from time to time. And from what
little I saw, Joss did some nice work with it. Or, a good
"spin" on it.
Without transcripts, I ain't even gonna go some places I
normally would, but there are a few nice things to point out.
To me, the best aspect was Connor getting to meet Teen
Angel (no, I'm not going to break into song). To find out
Angel had grown up to become very much like his father,
that he had the same almost hostile relationship. Though
Angel only killed his father, not tried to dump him in the water
for all of eternity.
Joss got the teen characters right. Joss did have some wonderful
gags in it, like while Fred was talking about being probed, she
squeezes the bat handle harder than Angel did the axe handle
in Belonging. With Wes' "Shwing!" gag, it makes it work.
The foreshadowing was laid on thick and good. The relationship
tensions were underscored.
And best it shows what some of us have been saying, Cordy
and Angel do love each other. Neener neener!
There's plenty more of the good, but I don't like talking about
an episode that I didn't see all of in more detail.
(... they'll beg to be sent to the Nixon/Brittany Spears hell!)
Stephen Weick | A pleasingly pleasantly pettish person.
In episode 6, it will be revealed that Buffy and Xander eloped and
have been secretly married for a month and a half. - Zombie Elvis
PJ Browning
swe...@aol.com (SWeick) wrote:
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.
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.
.
.
.
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> To me, the best aspect was Connor getting to meet Teen
> Angel (no, I'm not going to break into song). To find out
> Angel had grown up to become very much like his father,
> that he had the same almost hostile relationship.
Agreed. Connor finding out about Angel's relationship as a young man
with his father was a very important step.
as was Connor getting his butt kicked. I love Connor, he's one of my fav
characters, but he deserved getting a thrashing from Angel over what he
did to his dad. I'm glad that he got it, even if it took a memory spell
gone back for a touch of Angelus to come out. Connor didn't know that
Angel was under a spell, so to him it was genuine (which is all that
matters).
Terry McNeal
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On 11 Nov 2002 18:37:17 GMT, swe...@aol.com (SWeick) wrote:
:Cordy: "I wanted to cleanup". *%&$& shoulder shot of
:Cordy in a towel $*(&#%& and a FRIGGIN PICASSO
:VERSION OF CORDY STANDING IN THE TOWEL!
It was nothing. I mean, if we were supposed to get a refer-back to
Angel in "Rm w/a Vu," I want a refund.
:Yes. I. Will. Wait. For. The. Rerun. To. Retape. It.
:
:Mutter mutter mutter.
Yes. It will be shown right after "Waiting in the Wings."
IOW, speak now if you want a copy of it from a digital source. This
offer expires in two days.
:It's nice to see that the big boys are willing to take the
:crap shovelling duties from time to time. And from what
:little I saw, Joss did some nice work with it. Or, a good
:"spin" on it.
Eh, Joss shoulda let Espenson do it.
Six episodes and not a solid hit in the group. You picked the wrong
season to be all positive and upbeat.
Terry
Christopher Rickey
"SWeick" <swe...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021111133717...@mb-ci.aol.com...
>
> And best it shows what some of us have been saying, Cordy
> and Angel do love each other. Neener neener!
And that Cordy's evaluation of Angel as "Hello, salty goodness," is
independent of any Buffy considerations.
Joss always did like you best.
SWeick
<tymc...@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes:
>Spoilers for "Spin the Bottle."
>
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>
>On 11 Nov 2002 18:37:17 GMT, swe...@aol.com (SWeick) wrote:
>
>:Cordy: "I wanted to cleanup". *%&$& shoulder shot of
>:Cordy in a towel $*(&#%& and a FRIGGIN PICASSO
>:VERSION OF CORDY STANDING IN THE TOWEL!
>
>It was nothing. I mean, if we were supposed to get a refer-back to
>Angel in "Rm w/a Vu," I want a refund.
Not thinking the Suits will allow Cordy to be covered
by a towel just barely around her waist, and be shot
full length. This ain't HBO.
Which gives me another group for shotgun target practice.
And Suits are larger than satellite dishes.
>:Yes. I. Will. Wait. For. The. Rerun. To. Retape. It.
>:
>:Mutter mutter mutter.
>
>Yes. It will be shown right after "Waiting in the Wings."
So do you like kicking downed men?
>IOW, speak now if you want a copy of it from a digital source. This
>offer expires in two days.
Eh, I'll let it go. I got most of the episode. I'll get
the transcripts. I'm happy enough.
Except for those Direct TV bastards.
>:It's nice to see that the big boys are willing to take the
>:crap shovelling duties from time to time. And from what
>:little I saw, Joss did some nice work with it. Or, a good
>:"spin" on it.
>
>Eh, Joss shoulda let Espenson do it.
Sure, but it's better than others. Or can you
said "Provider"?
>Six episodes and not a solid hit in the group. You picked the wrong
>season to be all positive and upbeat.
Hey, it makes me unique.
Or a lone freak that people would drive a stake through
my heart if they knew what I thought.
Kinda a pick'um.
PJ Browning
"Christopher Rickey" <cri...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> "SWeick" <swe...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20021111133717...@mb-ci.aol.com...
> >
> > And best it shows what some of us have been saying, Cordy
> > and Angel do love each other. Neener neener!
>
> And that Cordy's evaluation of Angel as "Hello, salty goodness,"
I was rolling on that one, just like the first time she said it.
Hunter
Angelus killed Liam's father. There is a difference you know. And before
that Liam never tried to kill his father's friends. Yes Liam's father was
a son of a bitch, but he was a right son of a bitch. Ale is not good for
you and it did get him in trouble. Wasn't he drunk when he ran into Darla
in that alley when she turned him? Of course constantly telling your son
he is a good for nothing could be a self fufulling destiny. Liam's father
did not give his son support, but he was right in many things. Conner
considering his acts has even less ground to stand on.
>
> Joss got the teen characters right. Joss did have some wonderful
> gags in it, like while Fred was talking about being probed, she
> squeezes the bat handle harder than Angel did the axe handle
> in Belonging. With Wes' "Shwing!" gag, it makes it work.
>
> The foreshadowing was laid on thick and good. The relationship
> tensions were underscored.
>
> And best it shows what some of us have been saying, Cordy
> and Angel do love each other. Neener neener!
That should had been obvious on the night they were going to meet each
other.
>
> There's plenty more of the good, but I don't like talking about
> an episode that I didn't see all of in more detail.
>
> (... they'll beg to be sent to the Nixon/Brittany Spears hell!)
>
>
> Stephen Weick | A pleasingly pleasantly pettish person.
>
> In episode 6, it will be revealed that Buffy and Xander eloped and
> have been secretly married for a month and a half. - Zombie Elvis
>
>
>
>
--
----->Hunter
"No man in the wrong can stand up against
a fellow that's in the right and keeps on acomin'."
-----William J. McDonald
Captain, Texas Rangers from 1891 to 1907
Hunter
ext.news.prodigy.com>, anta...@pacbell.net says...
Funny, I thought Conner knew that Liam's complaints were genuine
*because* he knew he was under a spell, or at least knew he didn't really
know that that he was his son.
Terry McNeal
:In article <mr40tus7ps8v439t8...@4ax.com>, Terry McNeal
:<tymc...@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes:
:
:>Spoilers for "Spin the Bottle."
:>
:>.
:>.
:>.
:>.
:>.
:>.
:>.
:>.
:>.
:>.
:>.
:>
:>On 11 Nov 2002 18:37:17 GMT, swe...@aol.com (SWeick) wrote:
:>
:>:Cordy: "I wanted to cleanup". *%&$& shoulder shot of
:>:Cordy in a towel $*(&#%& and a FRIGGIN PICASSO
:>:VERSION OF CORDY STANDING IN THE TOWEL!
:>
:>It was nothing. I mean, if we were supposed to get a refer-back to
:>Angel in "Rm w/a Vu," I want a refund.
:
:Not thinking the Suits will allow Cordy to be covered
:by a towel just barely around her waist, and be shot
:full length. This ain't HBO.
Probably Charisma Carpenter would object as well. But Cordy could have
at least been wet. On the plus side, I guess we don't need to hope
"The Groomsmen" is released over here after all.
>:Yes. I. Will. Wait. For. The. Rerun. To. Retape. It.
:>:
:>:Mutter mutter mutter.
:>
:>Yes. It will be shown right after "Waiting in the Wings."
:
:So do you like kicking downed men?
Me, Wesley, Gunn. We're all in favor of it.
:>IOW, speak now if you want a copy of it from a digital source. This
:>offer expires in two days.
:
:Eh, I'll let it go. I got most of the episode. I'll get
:the transcripts. I'm happy enough.
:
:Except for those Direct TV bastards.
Okay. Good luck with that rerun taping. ;-)
:>:It's nice to see that the big boys are willing to take the
:>:crap shovelling duties from time to time. And from what
:>:little I saw, Joss did some nice work with it. Or, a good
:>:"spin" on it.
:>
:>Eh, Joss shoulda let Espenson do it.
:
:Sure, but it's better than others. Or can you
:said "Provider"?
Well, it ain't that bad, better than "Band Candy" even. Still, "Sense
and Sensitivity" remains unchallenged for the best comedy episode.
Terry
DarkMagic
"Christopher Rickey" <cri...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
news:waVz9.178$c5.4...@news.uchicago.edu...
Angel. He's a good looking guy and she was a boy crazy girl. As soon as
Cordelia realized Angel was a vampire she was all too happy to let "the
freak" have him. There wasn't a thing that happened in "Spin the Bottle"
that convinced me that Cordelia and Angel were "in love." Angel has
feelings for Cordelia. So far as he can define them they stem from
friendship and that's what he misses the most. What Cordelia's "revelation"
at the end was supposed to mean I have no idea. They were in love, but now
they aren't? They were in love, he doesn't know if he is now and neither
does she? They were in love, and they still are, but they can't be anymore?
What does Cordelia remember, exactly, that sends her fleeing in the opposite
direction now? Does she think her feelings for Angel were causing her to
revert to her former romance centered ways? Did Liam chasing her around the
hotel remind her of what Angelus is capable of? Now that Connor's feelings
are at stake is Cordelia unwilling to choose one over the other? Or does
she prefer Connor, now?
Shannon
PJ Browning
buffh...@my-deja.com (Hunter) wrote:
> Funny, I thought Conner knew that Liam's complaints were genuine
> *because* he knew he was under a spell,
but he didn't know about the spell when the ass kicking started. he
didn't catch up to that fact until about half way through.
PJ Browning
buffh...@my-deja.com (Hunter) wrote:
> ---
> Angelus killed Liam's father. There is a difference you know.
No there isn't. Angelus and Liam are the same thing. the only difference
is that the vampire demon that stepped in when the soul left removed
Liam's sense of restraint. The hatred that fueled the killings was all
the same stuff that Liam felt all along. Just because he never actually
killed his father doesn't mean that he hadn't thought about it.
Niall Harrison
> Still, "Sense and Sensitivity" remains unchallenged for the best comedy
> episode.
S'yeah, right.
You know what I'm saying.
Niall
--
Another casualty of applied metaphysics.
Terry McNeal
wrote:
:Previously, on alt.tv.angel - Terry McNeal wrote:
:
:> Still, "Sense and Sensitivity" remains unchallenged for the best comedy
:> episode.
:
:S'yeah, right.
:
:You know what I'm saying.
That you're still wrong?
Wrong, wrong, wrong?
Wrong?
:-)
Terry
Tammy Stephanie Davis
PJ Browning <anta...@pacbell.net> wrote:
:In article <MPG.1839f2472...@news.earthlink.net>,
As Angel himself said, there is a *big* difference between wishing
to take revenge and actually doing it. There are very few of us
who hadn't at one time or another wished their parents dead - even
fleetingly. Also, the Buffyverse has shown time and time again that
there is much more to a person's soul than restraint.
--
Niall Harrison
> On 11 Nov 2002 22:46:43 GMT, Niall Harrison <s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk>
> wrote:
> :Previously, on alt.tv.angel - Terry McNeal wrote:
> :
> :> Still, "Sense and Sensitivity" remains unchallenged for the best comedy
> :> episode.
> :
> :S'yeah, right.
> :
> :You know what I'm saying.
>
> That you're still wrong?
So close, and yet, so far...
Niall
--
Verbing weirds language.
Terry McNeal
wrote:
:Previously, on alt.tv.angel - Terry McNeal wrote:
:> On 11 Nov 2002 22:46:43 GMT, Niall Harrison <s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk>
:> wrote:
:
:> :Previously, on alt.tv.angel - Terry McNeal wrote:
:> :
:> :> Still, "Sense and Sensitivity" remains unchallenged for the best comedy
:> :> episode.
:> :
:> :S'yeah, right.
:> :
:> :You know what I'm saying.
:>
:> That you're still wrong?
:
:So close, and yet, so far...
That's only because you snipped the other four wrongs. You're in
denial [1], as only you can be. Turn away from the dark side and you
too will see the truth.
Terry
[1] See, 'cause denial = de-Niall? It's all in good pun.
Niall Harrison
> On 11 Nov 2002 23:39:16 GMT, Niall Harrison <s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk>
> wrote:
> :Previously, on alt.tv.angel - Terry McNeal wrote:
> :> On 11 Nov 2002 22:46:43 GMT, Niall Harrison <s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk>
> :> wrote:
> :> :Previously, on alt.tv.angel - Terry McNeal wrote:
> :> :
> :> :> Still, "Sense and Sensitivity" remains unchallenged for the best comedy
> :> :> episode.
> :> :
> :> :S'yeah, right.
> :> :
> :> :You know what I'm saying.
> :>
> :> That you're still wrong?
> :
> :So close, and yet, so far...
>
> That's only because you snipped the other four wrongs.
If I'd left those, it would have been 'so far, and yet so far', which
doesn't work so well.
> You're in denial [1], as only you can be.
What can I say? It's a gift.
> [1] See, 'cause denial = de-Niall? It's all in good pun.
And that's *your* gift. Although if I were you, I'd ask for a refund.
Niall
--
When memes collide.
Terry McNeal
wrote:
:Previously, on alt.tv.angel - Terry McNeal wrote:
:> [1] See, 'cause denial = de-Niall? It's all in good pun.
:
:And that's *your* gift. Although if I were you, I'd ask for a refund.
Ouch.
Terry
Niall Harrison
> On 12 Nov 2002 00:27:52 GMT, Niall Harrison <s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk>
> wrote:
> :Previously, on alt.tv.angel - Terry McNeal wrote:
> :> [1] See, 'cause denial = de-Niall? It's all in good pun.
> :
> :And that's *your* gift. Although if I were you, I'd ask for a refund.
>
> Ouch.
Maybe you can get a decoder ring instead. :-)
Niall
--
IRC killed the Usenet star.
Christopher Rickey
"DarkMagic" <slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:di-dnbFgo8y...@comcast.com...
>
> "Christopher Rickey" <cri...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
> news:waVz9.178$c5.4...@news.uchicago.edu...
> >
> > "SWeick" <swe...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:20021111133717...@mb-ci.aol.com...
> > >
> > > And best it shows what some of us have been saying, Cordy
> > > and Angel do love each other. Neener neener!
> >
> > And that Cordy's evaluation of Angel as "Hello, salty goodness," is
> > independent of any Buffy considerations.
> >
> > Joss always did like you best.
> >
> All "Hello, salty goodness" shows is that Cordelia is/was attracted to
> Angel.
That's all that I wanted to say.
There wasn't a thing that happened in "Spin the Bottle"
> that convinced me that Cordelia and Angel were "in love."
Then nothing will.
SWeick
<tymc...@remove.this.hotmail.com> writes:
*Sniff* *Sniff* So I'm not the "wrong" guy in your
life anymore? *Sniff*
> :-)
(-: <
SWeick
Even her attempts on dating Angel had more to do with
Angel than Buffy.
>Joss always did like you best.
It's cause I only said kind words about his work, like
Family, The Gift, Happy Anniversary, etc.
:-)
SWeick
Browning <anta...@pacbell.net> writes:
Both were angry young men kicked out of their homes.
>as was Connor getting his butt kicked. I love Connor, he's one of my fav
>characters, but he deserved getting a thrashing from Angel over what he
>did to his dad. I'm glad that he got it, even if it took a memory spell
>gone back for a touch of Angelus to come out. Connor didn't know that
>Angel was under a spell, so to him it was genuine (which is all that
>matters).
Yeah, but does Angelus make Angel more or less of a hypocrite?
SWeick
buffh...@my-deja.com (Hunter) writes:
>In article <20021111133717...@mb-ci.aol.com>, swe...@aol.com
>says...
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
>> To me, the best aspect was Connor getting to meet Teen
>> Angel (no, I'm not going to break into song). To find out
>> Angel had grown up to become very much like his father,
>> that he had the same almost hostile relationship. Though
>> Angel only killed his father, not tried to dump him in the water
>> for all of eternity.
>---
>Angelus killed Liam's father. There is a difference you know.
Liam was a human. Angelus was the vampire. Angel is
the cursed with a soul vampire. Angelus is still in Angel,
as I gather we will see.
>Conner
>considering his acts has even less ground to stand on.
The way Connor was raise sure as hell made him feel
he had the ground to stand on. Angel was a vampire,
he was a demon. Holtz was killed as if a vampire had
done it. There was an obvious suspect to be punished.
>> And best it shows what some of us have been saying, Cordy
>> and Angel do love each other. Neener neener!
>----
>That should had been obvious on the night they were going to meet each
>other.
Obvious isn't accepted by many. Thus the ME Anvil Attacks.
Hunter
Liam didn't start complaining until they were half way through.
Hunter
ext.news.prodigy.com>, anta...@pacbell.net says...
So when Angelus tried to kill Buffy Angel wanted Buffy dead all along?
Sure, Liam's father nagging may be the immediate cause of his death at
the hands of Angelus, but do you really think that Angelus would had left
him alive anyway? The man killed total strangers. Maybe it was more
personal with his father, but he would had been dead anyway. Angelus and
Liam are not the same. Liam died. His soul was gone. Angelus the demon
had all the memories of all the crap Liam's dad had poured on him, but it
was not Liam. Now this is canon: A vampire is a thing; it has the
memories of the victim but it is not the victim. Giles made this
perfectly clear. Gunn understood this when he staked his sister, or more
accurately the image of his sister. Angel is not responsible for the
death of his father, although I am sure he feels so, He may have even in
times of pique whished his father dead, but he is not responsible for the
actions of Angelus.
Conner on the other hand thought about and did worst to Angel than what
Angelus did to Liam's father. He intended to have him suffer on the
bottom of the ocean for hundreds if not thousands of years. And he did
this as a person with a soul. Liam with a soul never even tried that.
Terry McNeal
wrote:
:Previously, on alt.tv.angel - Terry McNeal wrote:
:> On 12 Nov 2002 00:27:52 GMT, Niall Harrison <s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk>
:> wrote:
:
:> :Previously, on alt.tv.angel - Terry McNeal wrote:
:
:> :> [1] See, 'cause denial = de-Niall? It's all in good pun.
:> :
:> :And that's *your* gift. Although if I were you, I'd ask for a refund.
:>
:> Ouch.
:
:Maybe you can get a decoder ring instead. :-)
Got one. It's Stephen who needs a decoder ring. And a copy of "Waiting
in the Wings." And a copy of "Spin the Bottle."
Terry
Terry McNeal
:*Sniff* *Sniff* So I'm not the "wrong" guy in your
:life anymore? *Sniff*
Dude, the wrong contingent is legion. Sorry.
Terry
Hunter
says...
not Liam who killed his father. It was Angelus. Liam's soul had long
vacated the body now occupied by the demon Angelus. BTW I still say there
is a clear deliberate connection between the names Liam, Angelus and
Angel and yes William despite some saying I am reading too much into the
situation.
We keep coming back to this: When a vampire crosses you over you are
dead. The essense that was you has gone to heaven, hell or purgatory or
whatever after life there is. The thing that has the look mannerisms,
memory and personality is memorex, not live. Only if the soul is returned
to the body a la William and Angel does it become a person again.
In the mean time, neither Liam nor Angel killed his dad, Angelus the
demon did. Liam may had resented his father to the point of sometimes
wishing him dead, but he never carried it out. Angelus did.
>
> >Conner considering his acts has even less ground to stand on.
>
> The way Connor was raise sure as hell made him feel
> he had the ground to stand on. Angel was a vampire,
> he was a demon. Holtz was killed as if a vampire had
> done it. There was an obvious suspect to be punished.
----
Yeah, I guess waiting until a proper explaination is to much to ask for.
It is understandable why he went off the handle but he still acted
precipitously.
>
> >> And best it shows what some of us have been saying, Cordy
> >> and Angel do love each other. Neener neener!
> >----
> >That should had been obvious on the night they were going to meet each
> >other.
>
> Obvious isn't accepted by many. Thus the ME Anvil Attacks.
---
It was to the Groosolug (sp?)
>
> Stephen Weick | A pleasingly pleasantly pettish person.
>
> In episode 6, it will be revealed that Buffy and Xander eloped and
> have been secretly married for a month and a half. - Zombie Elvis
>
Lord Usher
<mr40tus7ps8v439t8...@4ax.com>...
> :crap shovelling duties from time to time. And from what
> :little I saw, Joss did some nice work with it. Or, a good
> :"spin" on it.
>
> Eh, Joss shoulda let Espenson do it.
"Band Candy" Espenson? "I don't know the difference between Giles at 16 and
Giles at 21" Espenson? "I can't be bothered to extrapolate what these adult
characters would actually have been like as adolescents according to the
evidence of previous episodes, so I'll just fall back on stock 'teen rebel'
personas" Espenson?
No, thank you.
> Six episodes and not a solid hit in the group. You picked the wrong
> season to be all positive and upbeat.
Six episodes and not a true stinker in the group, either. It's all about
seeing the glass as half full. :)
--
Lord Usher
"Don't we kill 'em any more?"
Daniel Damouth
> Still, "Sense
> and Sensitivity" remains unchallenged for the best comedy episode.
*you*
Niall Harrison
>> Six episodes and not a solid hit in the group. You picked the wrong
>> season to be all positive and upbeat.
>
> Six episodes and not a true stinker in the group, either. It's all about
> seeing the glass as half full. :)
I've got to say that I prefer the first six of S4 to the first six of S3
for pretty much that reason. Even so...there's something missing. I
haven't quite put my finger on what it is yet, but there's definitely
something missing.
Niall
--
It's Tiny Des!
Niall Harrison
> On 12 Nov 2002 01:03:08 GMT, Niall Harrison <s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk>
> wrote:
> :Previously, on alt.tv.angel - Terry McNeal wrote:
> :> On 12 Nov 2002 00:27:52 GMT, Niall Harrison <s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk>
> :> wrote:
> :
> :> :Previously, on alt.tv.angel - Terry McNeal wrote:
> :
> :> :> [1] See, 'cause denial = de-Niall? It's all in good pun.
> :> :
> :> :And that's *your* gift. Although if I were you, I'd ask for a refund.
> :>
> :> Ouch.
> :
> :Maybe you can get a decoder ring instead. :-)
>
> Got one. It's Stephen who needs a decoder ring.
Oh, my mistake. Maybe you guys should wear name tags, or something.
:-P
> And a copy of "Waiting in the Wings." And a copy of "Spin the Bottle."
What is it with him and Joss, anyway?
Niall
--
A little charm and a lot of style.
SWeick
<dam...@san.rr.com> writes:
And most others.
SWeick
buffh...@my-deja.com (Hunter) writes:
No, it was the darkness within Liam that did (From The Prodigal):
Darla: "This contest is ended, is it?"
Angel has his feet up on the table playing with his father's pipe.
His family lies dead around him.
Angel: "Now I've won."
Darla: "You're sure?"
Angel puts his feet down and picks up a mug of ale: "Of course.
I proved who had the power here."
Darla: "You think?"
Angel: "What?"
Darla: "You're victory over him took but moments."
Angel looks over at the body of his father and gets up: "Yes?"
Darla: "But his defeat of you will last life times."
Angel: "What are you talking about? He can't defeat me
now."
Darla: "Nor can he ever approve of you : in this world or any
other. - What we once were informs all that we have become.
(Angel looks at his father's body) The same love will infect our
hearts : even if they no longer beat. (Angel looks at his mother's and
his sister's body) Simple death won't change that."
Angel: "Love? - Is this the work of love?"
Darla steps closer and smiles up at him: "Darling boy.
- So young. Still so very young."
It was Angelus. Liam's soul had long
>vacated the body now occupied by the demon Angelus.
But not Liam's parental issues.
BTW I still say there
>is a clear deliberate connection between the names Liam, Angelus and
>Angel and yes William despite some saying I am reading too much into the
>situation.
BTW, didn't TeenFred call TeenAngel William?
>We keep coming back to this: When a vampire crosses you over you are
>dead. The essense that was you has gone to heaven, hell or purgatory or
>whatever after life there is. The thing that has the look mannerisms,
>memory and personality is memorex, not live. Only if the soul is returned
>to the body a la William and Angel does it become a person again.
But that memory, personality, and darkness was
part of Liam. Otherwise the scene with Darla above
makes little sense.
>In the mean time, neither Liam nor Angel killed his dad, Angelus the
>demon did. Liam may had resented his father to the point of sometimes
>wishing him dead, but he never carried it out. Angelus did.
The desire to kill his father came from Liam. The actions
were done by Angelus. Thus the guilt felt by Angel.
>> >Conner considering his acts has even less ground to stand on.
>>
>> The way Connor was raise sure as hell made him feel
>> he had the ground to stand on. Angel was a vampire,
>> he was a demon. Holtz was killed as if a vampire had
>> done it. There was an obvious suspect to be punished.
>----
>Yeah, I guess waiting until a proper explaination is to much to ask for.
>It is understandable why he went off the handle but he still acted
>precipitously.
True, like most teenagers.
Connor's not a nice guy, but hey, you can understand
his issues. Especially the sexual frustrations.
>> >> And best it shows what some of us have been saying, Cordy
>> >> and Angel do love each other. Neener neener!
>> >----
>> >That should had been obvious on the night they were going to meet each
>> >other.
>>
>> Obvious isn't accepted by many. Thus the ME Anvil Attacks.
>---
>It was to the Groosolug (sp?)
And yet, not to many here.
H.G.Hettinger
>... so I get a free meal out of it. Sure, take Dad to the
>airport at 3:00 AM, but who needs sleep? And no problems
>taping Angel at his place, cause Direct TV.
>
>The Teaser comes through loud and clear despite the
>bad weather, but then during the third commercial,
>things go all blotchy, turns black with the annoying
>
>"Searching for satellite signal
>To access related utilities, press Select"
>
>and in between getting that with getting this
Which is why dishnetwork has it over Direct TV as far as I'm
concerned.
We get Angel three times (once from Boston, once from Denver and once
from KTLA) and having decided to go to work in spite of the hail storm
that had just blown through and other storms looming on the horizon,
paranoid me set the VCR to tape at 9 and at 10 and midnight and was
greatly relieved to find a complete version among them :-) (Which
means there *will* be a transcript up some time later this week - or
if you'd like one of the two tapes that I used to cover all
contingencies...)
hgh
Angel: "Everything I touch - turns to ashes."
Terry McNeal
wrote:
:Terry McNeal <tymc...@remove.this.hotmail.com> wrote in article
I'm sure what Espenson wrote is what Joss wanted, and since I thought
BC was funnier than "Spin the Bottle," yes, please.
:> Six episodes and not a solid hit in the group. You picked the wrong
:> season to be all positive and upbeat.
:
:Six episodes and not a true stinker in the group, either. It's all about
:seeing the glass as half full. :)
I usually let Linda be the optimist.
Terry
Linda
"Niall Harrison" <s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:10371065...@urchin.earth.li...
David Greenwalt is missing. Nough said.
--
Best Regards,
Linda
Mmmmmm...Angel
Linda
"Lord Usher" <lord_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:01c28a19$f423d640$ef00a8c0@house-of-usher...
As a glass half full person, so far I have absolutely loved this season. Not a
clinker in the bunch. I can even rewatch *Ground State* without wincing. I can't
say that about the previous three seasons.
Don Sample
<tymc...@remove.this.hotmail.com> wrote:
I've always thought that people took the "reverting to teenagers" thing
in Band Candy much too literally. The adults generally weren't
behaving like teenagers. They had all their inhibitions, and sense of
responsability stripped away.
--
Don Sample, dsa...@synapse.net
Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Daniel Damouth
ms.aol.com:
> In article <Xns92C44151...@66.75.162.198>, Daniel Damouth
> <dam...@san.rr.com> writes:
>
>>Terry McNeal <tymc...@remove.this.hotmail.com> wrote in
>>news:fda0tug1k81pg2m82...@4ax.com:
>>
>>> Still, "Sense
>>> and Sensitivity" remains unchallenged for the best comedy episode.
>>
>>*you*
>>
> And most others.
Actually, the reponse I was looking for was something like
"no, *you*"
But that exchange from the episode seems difficult to express in ASCII.
-Dan Damouth
Lord Usher
> :
> :"Band Candy" Espenson? "I don't know the difference between Giles at 16
> :and Giles at 21" Espenson? "I can't be bothered to extrapolate what
> :these adult characters would actually have been like as adolescents
> :according to the evidence of previous episodes, so I'll just fall back
> :on stock 'teen rebel' personas" Espenson?
> :
> :No, thank you.
>
> I'm sure what Espenson wrote is what Joss wanted
I'm sorry, but I have never bought this idea that Joss somehow tacetly
approved of every single moment of every single scene in every single
episode that has ever aired, simply because he didn't rewrite every single
moment that wasn't up to snuff.
Joss is a regular human guy who has to sleep at least a couple hours a
night, and there must come a point when he's just gotta say, "Well, that's
gonna have to be good enough," even if it really isn't.
Come on... are you sure that what Marti Noxon wrote in "Surprise" is what
Joss wanted, too?
Lord Usher
<l0jA9.628845$Xw1....@news.easynews.com>...
> > I've got to say that I prefer the first six of S4 to the first six of
> > S3 for pretty much that reason. Even so...there's something missing.
> > I haven't quite put my finger on what it is yet, but there's definitely
> > something missing.
>
> David Greenwalt is missing. Nough said.
It's funny... I've always been a big Greenie booster, but the only
contribution of his I've found missing this year is his tendency to replace
gothic creepiness with dorky sci-fi weirdness. For which I am not the
slightest bit regretful.
(If Greenie had written "Ground State," Dinza the Goddess of the Lost
would've been a sparkly weird alien chick with three breasts or something,
and instead of playing her as spooky and possibly not to be trusted, the
focus would've been on some silly, arbitrary ritual Angel had to perform to
earn her favor. Or there would've been some dumb joke like, "Dinza needs to
give Angel some magick powder to find the Axis, but she's the Goddess of
the Lost, so she's misplaced it!")
Greenwalt's more constructive tendencies -- a strong sense of plot
momentum, a refusal to succumb to maudlin sentimentality, an ear for witty
dialog -- are still very much in evidence even after his departure. That's
one of the thing that's impressed me most about this season; even with all
the shakeups behind the scenes, even with the loss of Greenwalt and Minear
(!!) and with Simkins not working out, it has never felt like the writers
were losing control. The series has remained remarkably consistent in
quality and tone. In fact, it's actually become *more* consistent and
self-assured this year, despite the behind-the-scenes wackiness.
Linda
"Terry McNeal" <tymc...@remove.this.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3u63tugkasmqjjn5j...@4ax.com...
Gee, I already replied before seeing this post.
Damn, you know me so well.
:-D
Linda
I keep forgetting that sarcasm doesn't come through on usenet.
That fact that I think that S4 is Angel's best season ever so far is because
Greenie is gone. While I like most of his writing, he definitely had some
clunkers. The ones I do like I tend to rewatch often. He really has been hit or
miss with nothing in between for me. 9 out of 15 or 3/5ths and it turns out that
most of the ones I liked were in the first season.
Angel's only as strong as it's writers and directors. I believe it's stronger
now.
DarkMagic
"Christopher Rickey" <cri...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
news:KMYz9.193$c5.4...@news.uchicago.edu...
>
> "DarkMagic" <slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:di-dnbFgo8y...@comcast.com...
> >
> > "Christopher Rickey" <cri...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
> > news:waVz9.178$c5.4...@news.uchicago.edu...
> > >
> > > "SWeick" <swe...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > > news:20021111133717...@mb-ci.aol.com...
> > > >
> > > > and Angel do love each other. Neener neener!
> > >
> > > independent of any Buffy considerations.
> > >
> > >
> > Angel.
>
> That's all that I wanted to say.
>
> There wasn't a thing that happened in "Spin the Bottle"
> > that convinced me that Cordelia and Angel were "in love."
>
> Then nothing will.
>
Angel: I'm in love with you Cordelia, I want to spend the rest of my unlife
with you.
Cordelia: What about Buffy? What about the lost soul gettin' all evil
thing?
Angel: Buffy was a crush. What I feel for you is the real thing. But, I
promise not to touch you sexually until the lost soul gettin' evil thing is
worked out.
Shannon
Niall Harrison
> Greenwalt's more constructive tendencies -- a strong sense of plot
> momentum, a refusal to succumb to maudlin sentimentality, an ear for witty
> dialog -- are still very much in evidence even after his departure.
Agreed.
(I really don't understand those who insist _Buffy_ has more plot momentum
than _Angel_ this season. I like S7; I think there have been a bunch of
really decent episodes. But momentum? Not so much. Well, until CWDP,
anyway.)
> it has never felt like the writers were losing control.
I know what's bugging me - it's not that there's a lack of control, it's
that there's a lack of *purpose*. The story is good, and strong, and
well-paced; but I don't have a feel for what it's *about*. Why tell this
story? What larger themes is it addressing?
Niall
--
Verbing weirds language.
Randy Money
Just to chime in -- I agree that this has been an okay year. Nothing
superior so far, but pretty solid and no real stinkers.
Randy M.
Terry McNeal
wrote:
:swe...@aol.com (SWeick) wrote in news:20021112115726.05582.00000603@mb-
Well, that's what I *was* going to say. Seems kind of pointless now
though. I wouldn't want to be a "painbow".
Terry
Terry McNeal
wrote:
:Terry McNeal <tymc...@remove.this.hotmail.com> wrote in article
:> :"Band Candy" Espenson? "I don't know the difference between Giles at 16
:> :and Giles at 21" Espenson? "I can't be bothered to extrapolate what
:> :these adult characters would actually have been like as adolescents
:> :according to the evidence of previous episodes, so I'll just fall back
:> :on stock 'teen rebel' personas" Espenson?
:> :
:> :No, thank you.
:>
:> I'm sure what Espenson wrote is what Joss wanted
:
:I'm sorry, but I have never bought this idea that Joss somehow tacetly
:approved of every single moment of every single scene in every single
:episode that has ever aired, simply because he didn't rewrite every single
:moment that wasn't up to snuff.
:
:Joss is a regular human guy who has to sleep at least a couple hours a
:night, and there must come a point when he's just gotta say, "Well, that's
:gonna have to be good enough," even if it really isn't.
Joss says he reads and approves every script and the writers say Joss
reads and approves every script. I gotta think Joss reads and approves
every script. I do think sometimes Joss ends up approving something
that looks better on paper than it turns out on screen, but he
wouldn't be the only person who's done that. But since "Band Candy"
was all of a piece, yes, I think what Espenson wrote is what Joss
wanted.
:Come on... are you sure that what Marti Noxon wrote in "Surprise" is what
:Joss wanted, too?
At one point in time, Joss claimed his favorite episode of _Angel_ was
"I Will Remember You." From that I conclude he's apparently as capable
of falling victim to overly sentimental and manipulative tripe as
anyone else is. Judging by the near-universal condemnation of
"Family," I suppose he's even capable of writing it from time to time.
Terry
Terry McNeal
<li...@DELETESPAMsusieword.com> wrote:
:"Terry McNeal" <tymc...@remove.this.hotmail.com> wrote in message
:news:3u63tugkasmqjjn5j...@4ax.com...
:> I usually let Linda be the optimist.
:
:Gee, I already replied before seeing this post.
:
:Damn, you know me so well.
:
::-D
Hey, it's out there for all to see. I'm not the only one who's
noticed. ;)
Terry
Lord Usher
> :I'm sorry, but I have never bought this idea that Joss somehow tacetly
> :approved of every single moment of every single scene in every single
> :episode that has ever aired, simply because he didn't rewrite every
> :single moment that wasn't up to snuff.
> :
> :Joss is a regular human guy who has to sleep at least a couple hours a
> :night, and there must come a point when he's just gotta say, "Well,
> :that's gonna have to be good enough," even if it really isn't.
>
> Joss says he reads and approves every script and the writers say Joss
> reads and approves every script. I gotta think Joss reads and approves
> every script.
I never said that he didn't. I simply question the assumption that because
he read and approved every script, he necessarily was completely happy with
every single part of every single one.
There's a difference between saying, "Yeah, this script is fairly logical
and entertaining, and I wouldn't object to putting it on my show," and
saying, "This is exactly what I wanted and there isn't a single thing I
would have done differently if I'd written it myself." I see no reason to
believe that an approval from Joss amounts to the latter instead of just
the former.
Lord Usher
<10372150...@urchin.earth.li>...
> Previously, on alt.tv.angel - Lord Usher wrote:
>
> > Greenwalt's more constructive tendencies -- a strong sense of plot
> > momentum, a refusal to succumb to maudlin sentimentality, an ear for
> > witty dialog -- are still very much in evidence even after his
> > departure.
>
> Agreed.
>
> (I really don't understand those who insist _Buffy_ has more plot
> momentum than _Angel_ this season. I like S7; I think there have been a
> bunch of really decent episodes. But momentum? Not so much.
Hear, hear. Repeating the same befuddling bits of foreshadowing over and
over again ("From beneath you it devours") does not constitute momentum.
But, then, BUFFY's had a problem pacing their major story arcs for *years*
now. Recall that it took Glory two-thirds of a season before she worked up
the enthusiasm to do something other than whine, "Where's my Key? I want my
Key!" every damn episode.
> Well, until CWDP, anyway.)
Heh. CwDP really does reset the scale, doesn't it? The only reason I'm not
bursting with excitement right now is because I've learned not to trust the
BUFFY writers to follow up on promising beginnings. (I was bursting with
excitement over the Willow storyline after the first few episode of season
6, and we all know how *that* turned out...)
> > it has never felt like the writers were losing control.
>
> I know what's bugging me - it's not that there's a lack of control, it's
> that there's a lack of *purpose*. The story is good, and strong, and
> well-paced; but I don't have a feel for what it's *about*. Why tell this
> story? What larger themes is it addressing?
I agree completely. My reaction after watching most of the episodes this
season has been, "Well, I have no idea what they're doing, but they're
doing it pretty damn well."
Niall Harrison
> But, then, BUFFY's had a problem pacing their major story arcs for *years*
> now. Recall that it took Glory two-thirds of a season before she worked up
> the enthusiasm to do something other than whine, "Where's my Key? I want my
> Key!" every damn episode.
Well, quite. The cynic in me says that the key to pacing a season long
story arc is in finding plausible reasons for the bad guy to do nothing.
_Angel_ just about managed it for Holtz last year, particularly if you
look at episode numbers rather than the gaps between air dates.
>> Well, until CWDP, anyway.)
>
> Heh. CwDP really does reset the scale, doesn't it?
I'm not going as crazy over it as some (mostly because the Willow segments
left me kinda cold, the wonderful Ms Skye notwithstanding), but it was a
fine, fine episode.
> The only reason I'm not
> bursting with excitement right now is because I've learned not to trust the
> BUFFY writers to follow up on promising beginnings.
Ah yes, but this time they have Ultimate Drew. He's doing ep 9 as well,
remember. So no Marti until next spring at the earliest...
I do hope that if this is _Buffy_'s last year that they ship the man over
to _Angel_. My current sweeps dream team: Steve DeKnight, Joss Whedon,
Ultimate Drew and Tim Minear. In that order, with an on-form Mere Smith as
sub. :-)
>> > it has never felt like the writers were losing control.
>>
>> I know what's bugging me - it's not that there's a lack of control, it's
>> that there's a lack of *purpose*. The story is good, and strong, and
>> well-paced; but I don't have a feel for what it's *about*. Why tell this
>> story? What larger themes is it addressing?
>
> I agree completely.
Dang. I was hoping you were going to have it all figured out.
There is the 'regression' thing that one of the writers (Joss?) mentioned
over the summer. I can just about fumble something together along those
lines, but it's still very, very murky.
Oh, and Oedipus, obviously. I wonder if it would help if I knew more Greek
myth?
> My reaction after watching most of the episodes this
> season has been, "Well, I have no idea what they're doing, but they're
> doing it pretty damn well."
:-)
Niall
--
IRC killed the Usenet star.
Terry McNeal
wrote:
:Terry McNeal <tymc...@remove.this.hotmail.com> wrote in article
:<8jp5tu0brvgbq0kkv...@4ax.com>...
:> Joss says he reads and approves every script and the writers say Joss
:> reads and approves every script. I gotta think Joss reads and approves
:> every script.
:
:I never said that he didn't. I simply question the assumption that because
:he read and approved every script, he necessarily was completely happy with
:every single part of every single one.
Gotta get me one of those radical text readers, 'cause I don't see
where I even implied anything like that.
:There's a difference between saying, "Yeah, this script is fairly logical
:and entertaining, and I wouldn't object to putting it on my show," and
:saying, "This is exactly what I wanted and there isn't a single thing I
:would have done differently if I'd written it myself." I see no reason to
:believe that an approval from Joss amounts to the latter instead of just
:the former.
This all started when you said Espenson was somehow lacking because
"Band Candy" didn't give us "Giles: The Teen Years." If Joss had
wanted G:TTY but accepted BC as the best he could expect to get from
Espenson, that would have been more than Joss letting one bad
word/phrase/sentence/paragraph/scene/act go by, it would have been
telling story at odds with the story Joss wanted to tell. So again I
say, yes, I believe that "Band Candy" is the story Joss wanted to
tell, not the result of Espenson's failure to extrapolate the essence
of Giles and Joss saying 'close enough.'
If Joss had wanted G:TTY and Espenson had been incapable of providing
that script, Joss would have rewritten BC himself to be G:TTY. We know
this because Mere Smith said Joss did a complete rewrite of
"Untouched," and I'm sure he's done others.
Terry
Micky DuPree
swe...@aol.com (SWeick) writes:
: A Bottle Show is when the producers make a show that uses just
: standing sets and for the most part only the full caste to tell a
: story. It's cheapness allows for the expensive episodes to be given
: more money.
:
: Usually such dreck is dumped on the lap of some poor low level schmuck
: on the writing staff. It's a filler transitional episode, and it
: usually gets blasted by the viewers cause it really isn't a good
: episode of that series.
In my experience, bottle episodes can sometimes end up being fan
favorites, since instead of concentrating on guest characters we're
never going to see again and places we're never going to visit again for
reasons we're not likely to care about again, a bottle episode in the
hands of a good staff writer concentrates on the regular characters and
often involves them letting go of stuff they've been carrying around
inside themselves (because the writer's not allowed to introduce much in
the way of completely new stuff). Characters may confess their true
feelings, let slip little secrets, finally bring conflict or love or
whatever out in the open, and do so under pressure because they're
effectively locked in a virtual closet and for extra tension, the
virtual air is usually running out. Paradoxically, constraints can
sometimes be liberating, creatively.
However, the possibility that a bottle episode may become a lean, mean
fan favorite doesn't necessarily make it happen.
: To me, the best aspect was Connor getting to meet Teen Angel (no, I'm
: not going to break into song). To find out Angel had grown up to
: become very much like his father, that he had the same almost hostile
: relationship. Though Angel only killed his father, not tried to dump
: him in the water for all of eternity.
I think the comparison breaks down too quickly. Holtz taught Connor to
hate Angel. Connor's actual experience of Angel is very limited compared
to his first 16(?) years with Holtz. Angel did experience his father's
behavior firsthand.
Liam has both indicated and implied that his father would say one thing
and do another with respect to sin. Angel's no, um, angel (we all know
the catalog of his transgressions from season 2 onward, right?), but
he's still never just tossed his no-drinking-from-humans code to the
wind and preached one thing while practicing another, at least not while
ensouled. Angel at least tried to "go on the wagon." There's no
indication that Liam, Sr. ever did.
The commonality seems to me that guys often have father issues, often
contentious father issues, and it can be a revelation to a youngster
that his or her parents were once young and on the other side of the
fence in the parent-child relationship. (Whether any of this will leave
an impression on Connor, though, remains to be seen.)
: Joss got the teen characters right.
It would have been nice to learn more about the teens, more than Fred's
stoner habits, for example.
: And best it shows what some of us have been saying, Cordy and Angel do
: love each other. Neener neener!
lol. I take it you subscribe to the school of thought that says that
"Magnanimous in victory" loses its charm when you're the victor?
-Micky