Kiss as catch can (spoilers for Spin the Bottle)
DarkMagic
That is the object of the game. You sit in a circle with a group of people
and the bottle goes in the middle. When it's your turn to spin you hope the
bottle ends up pointing to the person you really want to kiss. Quite a bit
of risk is involved because the deal is you end up with whoever the bottle
points to, like it or not. Sometimes it's as simple as a kiss, sometimes
it's five minutes in the closet, sometimes...well, I won't go there. At any
rate, it's letting fate choose your mate, or loving the one you're with.
The title applies fairly accurately to the relationships going at the
moment. Wesley would rather kiss Fred, but he's settled for Lilah. Angel
would rather kiss Buffy, but he's fixated on Cordelia. Cordelia doesn't
know what she wants, so she's settled on Connor. Fred was desperate to not
be as alone as she was on Pylea, ever again, so she's latched onto Gunn.
The Host, with no romantic entanglements to speak of, wasn't affected by the
spell at all.
Having figured out that much, I think, what a mish mash of ideas, character
portrayals and bizarre storytelling "Spin the Bottle" was. Leave it to
Whedon, too much to say, and far too little time to do it in. Overall, the
episode started pretty well. Angel doesn't know how to answer Cordelia's
question. He's not sure what she was feeling before she left or what might
have happened if she had reached him. Fair enough. Gunn has figured out
that Wesley gave Fred a helping hand in her vengeance quest and he isn't
pleased. Then Lorne shows up with the magic bottle and all hell breaks
loose.
I wonder if someone did the Tabula Rasa on JW. Cordelia Chase at 17 not
only knew that vampires and demons existed, she also knew Wesley and Angel.
If she was supposed to be Cordelia at 15 or younger she was awfully mature
sexually speaking. Still, pretty much Cordelia when we first met her.
It was good to see goofy, insecure, Wesley again. AD has a knack for
physical comedy and we don't get to see enough of it.
Gunn was more of a bad ass and a bully than I remembered him.
Angel is Liam. Liam has been there all along, which means that William has
been in Spike all along. They are not totally different entities and I
don't see how Joss Whedon might have made that any plainer than he did last
night. Like Spike, Angel didn't even realize he was a vampire at first.
Once he did, his first instincts were not to kill. (Unlike the Rance Howard
character last season who was geared up for evil the minute he realized what
he was.) Angel didn't want to hurt anyone until the gang attacked him.
Then he had no compunction about eating them. Liam wants to indulge himself
with sex and drinking, he's not into fighting. When he is Angelus he
prefers to indulge himself in torture and killing, but he's still not into
fighting. Spike, of course, is into fighting, whether he's souled or not,
or even knows who the heck he is. Whedon has made it obvious that the soul
doesn't change their essential personalities. What does make a difference
is time and interaction with others.
Fred was the truest to her current character. She's basically a down to
earth, nice, caring, trusting, person, who wants to smoke pot.
The purpose of this episode, I believe, was to show us how these people have
served to change one another over the course of the last four years.
Cordelia is much more sensitive to other peoples feelings and has learned
that there is more to life than being the Slayer of dating. Gunn has
learned to play well with others, at least some of the time, that not all
demons are evil, and that a little planning and forethought can go along
way. Wesley has become more confident, less likely to spout off about every
single thing that he knows, and more likely to listen to what others have to
say. Fred has become more self-reliant, less trusting, and a shade less
ditsy. Angel has become a groupie. He now wants and needs other people in
his life that accept him and care about him.
By the same token, this episode shows to what extent these characters have
remained the same. In times of stress and pressure they revert very much to
their old habits. Cordelia lost focus of the mission and everyone else's
feelings to the exclusion of her relationship with Angel. Gunn is inclined
to act first, think later, discriminate against demons, and make up his own
rules. Wesley is an insufferable know it all, too insecure to admit that
he's made a mistake or needs help. Fred is inclined to be clingy and
dependent. Angel is very sensitive to a lack of trust and faith shown by
those who care about him and has that nasty, nasty, tendency towards
physical brutality when he's annoyed.
As far as character episodes go, "Spin the Bottle" was tops. Whedon is the
creator and he knows exactly what it is that he's created. Storytelling,
not so good. Although, there were a few really good comic moments. What
has me confused the most is the ending. What is it that Cordelia is running
away from? What has changed since she floated away last spring? Did
Lorne's magic potion restore her common sense? She still has feelings for
Angel. Clearly, he is still attracted to her. Is it because she realized
just how much she had started to revert to her former boy crazy, who gives a
damn about anyone else, self? Because Liam chasing her around the hotel
reminded her what of Angelus is capable of? Because she has feelings for
Connor now, too? A combination?
Shannon
DarkMagic
"Ken Arromdee" <arro...@yellow.rahul.net> wrote in message
news:aqomdq$j3a$1...@blue.rahul.net...
> In article <NqCcnXv8z67...@comcast.com>,
> DarkMagic <slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >Angel is Liam. Liam has been there all along, which means that William
has
> >been in Spike all along.
>
>
> Liam is there *now*, and the *current* Angel--the one with a soul--is
Liam.
> That doesn't prove Liam was there "all along"--it proves that Liam was
there
> back when Liam was alive, and that he's there now, but not that Liam was
there
> in the period where there was just a soulless vampire.
There is no such thing as "just" a soulless vampire. If that were true than
soulless Spike, as Randy Giles, would have tried to eat someone. And
souled Liam, without Angel's experiences and memories, has no compunction at
all about chowing down on people who annoy him. Angel is who he is because
of all the experiences he's had and all of the people he has known. It
isn't the soul that has made him the entity that he is today, it's the
choices he's made.
Shannon
Growltiger
<NqCcnXv8z67...@comcast.com>...
I would not get too hung-up on the precise age of the players. The
characters were restored to their adolescence by the spell. So if
Cordelia was 16, Fred was 15, Wesley was 18, and so forth and so on,
well, it is all good for me. I must have missed it if a particular date
and time was stipulated.
As for Gunn, he has been shown as living in a vampire infested gangsta's
paradise; he has since softened since joining Angel Investigations.
--
Be seeing you,
Growltiger
DarkMagic
> In article <KaacnRjul69...@comcast.com>,
> DarkMagic <slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >Angel is Liam. Liam has been there all along, which means that
William
> >has
> >> >been in Spike all along.
> >>
> >> What are you talking about?
> >> Liam is there *now*, and the *current* Angel--the one with a soul--is
> >Liam.
> >> That doesn't prove Liam was there "all along"--it proves that Liam was
> >there
> >> back when Liam was alive, and that he's there now, but not that Liam
was
> >there
> >> in the period where there was just a soulless vampire.
> >There is no such thing as "just" a soulless vampire. If that were true
than
> >soulless Spike, as Randy Giles, would have tried to eat someone.
>
because
> he likes her.
>
The point is that Spike without his current memory doesn't realize he's a
vampire. Angel without his current memory doesn't realize he's a vampire.
One vamp with a soul, one without, they both react the same way, initially,
as though they are normal human beings. There is a human entity and a
vampire entity in every vampire, souled or not. Liam, when he realizes he's
a vamp, is afraid the gang will try to hurt him. He's right, and in turn
he's perfectly willing to eat them because of it, even though he's in full
possession of his soul. Spike, upon realizing that he's a vamp thinks he's
some sort of super-hero, noble vampire fighting for the forces of good. He
doesn't try to eat or hurt anyone and he doesn't have a soul. You can
fanwank that any way you want and I'm sure you and many others will, but
those are the facts.
> >And
> >souled Liam, without Angel's experiences and memories, has no compunction
at
> >all about chowing down on people who annoy him.
>
> When he was actually given a baby to eat in the past, he wasn't able to
> bring himself to do it even though he was trying to be evil at the time.
> --
And Liam may have not been able to eat a baby, either. He was mostly
interested in eating the gang because they pre-judged him without even
giving him a chance. And Angel, we know, has killed and eaten humans with
his soul. The deciding factor seems to be whether or not he feels like
they deserve to be eaten. Guilt doesn't seem to be much of an issue for
him.
>
Shannon
DarkMagic
"Growltiger" <ty...@never.invalid> wrote in message
news:MPG.18399195b...@netnews.attbi.com...
> Previously on alt.tv.angel, slnosp...@yahoo.com wrote in article
> <NqCcnXv8z67...@comcast.com>...
> > Spoilers
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> characters were restored to their adolescence by the spell. So if
> Cordelia was 16, Fred was 15, Wesley was 18, and so forth and so on,
> well, it is all good for me. I must have missed it if a particular date
> and time was stipulated.
Fred mentioned that none of them looked exactly 17. Supposing Cordelia was
16 in her sophomore year at Sunnydale high she still did know who Angel was,
even if she hadn't realized what he was. She would have had to have been
taken back to the very beginning of her sophomore year which is plausible
since association with Buffy and the gang was really what started Cordelia's
change into a decent person.
>
> As for Gunn, he has been shown as living in a vampire infested gangsta's
> paradise; he has since softened since joining Angel Investigations.
Yes, like I said I had forgotten how hard and angry he was when he first met
the gang. I believe the whole point of the ep. was to show how knowing each
other has changed the gang's respective outlooks on life.
Shannon
The Fish Girl
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>That is the object of the game. You sit in a circle with a group of people
>and the bottle goes in the middle. When it's your turn to spin you hope the
>bottle ends up pointing to the person you really want to kiss. Quite a bit
>of risk is involved because the deal is you end up with whoever the bottle
>points to, like it or not. Sometimes it's as simple as a kiss, sometimes
>it's five minutes in the closet, sometimes...well, I won't go there. At any
>rate, it's letting fate choose your mate, or loving the one you're with.
>The title applies fairly accurately to the relationships going at the
>moment. Wesley would rather kiss Fred, but he's settled for Lilah. Angel
>would rather kiss Buffy, but he's fixated on Cordelia. Cordelia doesn't
>know what she wants, so she's settled on Connor. Fred was desperate to not
>be as alone as she was on Pylea, ever again, so she's latched onto Gunn.
>The Host, with no romantic entanglements to speak of, wasn't affected by the
>spell at all.
Sorry, but I have to disagree with would rather kiss Cordelia. Cordelia asked
him if they were in love, he said he cared for her. Then at the end Angel asked
her if they were in love hopefully and she said yes. I don't think it's a case
of "I can't have Buffy, I'll settle for Cordy", it never was.
>Having figured out that much, I think, what a mish mash of ideas, character
>portrayals and bizarre storytelling "Spin the Bottle" was. Leave it to
>Whedon, too much to say, and far too little time to do it in. Overall, the
>episode started pretty well. Angel doesn't know how to answer Cordelia's
>question. He's not sure what she was feeling before she left or what might
>have happened if she had reached him. Fair enough. Gunn has figured out
>that Wesley gave Fred a helping hand in her vengeance quest and he isn't
>pleased. Then Lorne shows up with the magic bottle and all hell breaks
>loose.
>
>I wonder if someone did the Tabula Rasa on JW. Cordelia Chase at 17 not
>only knew that vampires and demons existed, she also knew Wesley and Angel.
>If she was supposed to be Cordelia at 15 or younger she was awfully mature
>sexually speaking. Still, pretty much Cordelia when we first met her.
Cordelia was asking if it was some stupid sophmore hazing trick. When she was a
Sophmore she didn't know about Vampires and Demons until the last two episodes
of season one. This was Season One Cordy so she wouldn't have known about
Vampires, Demons, Slayers, and Watchers. Joss showed that very well with the
"Hello salty goodness" line. First thing she ever said when she first laid eyes
on Angel.
>It was good to see goofy, insecure, Wesley again. AD has a knack for
>physical comedy and we don't get to see enough of it.
Amen, would LOVE to see more.
>Gunn was more of a bad ass and a bully than I remembered him.
>
>Angel is Liam. Liam has been there all along, which means that William has
>been in Spike all along. They are not totally different entities and I
>don't see how Joss Whedon might have made that any plainer than he did last
>night. Like Spike, Angel didn't even realize he was a vampire at first.
>Once he did, his first instincts were not to kill. (Unlike the Rance Howard
>character last season who was geared up for evil the minute he realized what
>he was.) Angel didn't want to hurt anyone until the gang attacked him.
>Then he had no compunction about eating them. Liam wants to indulge himself
>with sex and drinking, he's not into fighting. When he is Angelus he
>prefers to indulge himself in torture and killing, but he's still not into
>fighting. Spike, of course, is into fighting, whether he's souled or not,
>or even knows who the heck he is. Whedon has made it obvious that the soul
>doesn't change their essential personalities. What does make a difference
>is time and interaction with others.
Kinda shows where Angelus is Liam also. I kinda liked the whole thing where he
went "You wanna Vampire, fine! I'll be a Vampire!" and boom Angelus is around.
Kinda proves that the demon does keep a piece of ya.
>Fred was the truest to her current character. She's basically a down to
>earth, nice, caring, trusting, person, who wants to smoke pot.
Not to mention a mega Conspiracy Theorist.
>The purpose of this episode, I believe, was to show us how these people have
>served to change one another over the course of the last four years.
>Cordelia is much more sensitive to other peoples feelings and has learned
>that there is more to life than being the Slayer of dating. Gunn has
>learned to play well with others, at least some of the time, that not all
>demons are evil, and that a little planning and forethought can go along
>way. Wesley has become more confident, less likely to spout off about every
>single thing that he knows, and more likely to listen to what others have to
>say. Fred has become more self-reliant, less trusting, and a shade less
>ditsy. Angel has become a groupie. He now wants and needs other people in
>his life that accept him and care about him.
Actually, Angel has always been with the needing people in his life. Just this
time it's not with the having to dominate them or being the outsider. He's part
of the group instead.
>By the same token, this episode shows to what extent these characters have
>remained the same. In times of stress and pressure they revert very much to
>their old habits. Cordelia lost focus of the mission and everyone else's
>feelings to the exclusion of her relationship with Angel. Gunn is inclined
>to act first, think later, discriminate against demons, and make up his own
>rules. Wesley is an insufferable know it all, too insecure to admit that
>he's made a mistake or needs help. Fred is inclined to be clingy and
>dependent. Angel is very sensitive to a lack of trust and faith shown by
>those who care about him and has that nasty, nasty, tendency towards
>physical brutality when he's annoyed.
>
>As far as character episodes go, "Spin the Bottle" was tops. Whedon is the
>creator and he knows exactly what it is that he's created. Storytelling,
>not so good. Although, there were a few really good comic moments. What
>has me confused the most is the ending. What is it that Cordelia is running
>away from? What has changed since she floated away last spring? Did
>Lorne's magic potion restore her common sense? She still has feelings for
>Angel. Clearly, he is still attracted to her. Is it because she realized
>just how much she had started to revert to her former boy crazy, who gives a
>damn about anyone else, self? Because Liam chasing her around the hotel
>reminded her what of Angelus is capable of? Because she has feelings for
>Connor now, too? A combination?
I think Cordelia ran because of the vision with the Demon's eyes opening. I
think that A) the reason she was "kicked out" of the Higher Plane was because
she was needed back on earth to fight that thing. And the vision of what that
sucker was gonna do was so horrifying that she put up walls around EVERYTHING
to protect herself, and B) when she remembered, she remembered the vision and
it scared her to death. She couldn't deal with it and being with Angel and the
others knowing that they could die while fighting this thing.
But that's just my theory.
>Shannon
Mandi
The fish Girl
"I saw Fish"
"Hey it's the Fish Girl!"
Don Sample
> Spoilers
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> I wonder if someone did the Tabula Rasa on JW. Cordelia Chase at 17 not
> only knew that vampires and demons existed, she also knew Wesley and Angel.
> If she was supposed to be Cordelia at 15 or younger she was awfully mature
> sexually speaking. Still, pretty much Cordelia when we first met her.
I figured it was Cordy at 16. If you asked her who Buffy Summers was
she'd have said she was the weird new kid in school who hung out in the
library with those losers Xander and Willow. She might be in a gang.
> Angel is Liam. Liam has been there all along, which means that William has
> been in Spike all along. They are not totally different entities and I
> don't see how Joss Whedon might have made that any plainer than he did last
> night. Like Spike, Angel didn't even realize he was a vampire at first.
> Once he did, his first instincts were not to kill. (Unlike the Rance Howard
> character last season who was geared up for evil the minute he realized what
> he was.) Angel didn't want to hurt anyone until the gang attacked him.
> Then he had no compunction about eating them.
If he had no compunction about eating them, he'd have killed and eaten
them.
> Liam wants to indulge himself
> with sex and drinking, he's not into fighting.
I got the impression that Liam still hadn't gotten into the sex and
drinking phase of his life.
--
Don Sample, dsa...@synapse.net
Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/
Quando omni flunkus moritati
DarkMagic
"Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
news:111120021331168395%dsa...@synapse.net...
He *was* going to eat them, starting with her. Connor stopped him. And
Lorne got the potion done in time. Granted nothing short of destruction
would stop Angelus. Angelus is a non lackasdasical Liam, at least he has
goals and ambition.
> > Liam wants to indulge himself
> > with sex and drinking, he's not into fighting.
>
> I got the impression that Liam still hadn't gotten into the sex and
> drinking phase of his life.
>
Well, he wanted an ale. And he couldn't choose between Cordy and Fred when
he decided to indulge his urges. If he was just hungry and there weren't
any sexual urges at play he might as well have started with Gunn who was
already unconscious. He told Connor he wasn't much interesting in fighting
just in fulfilling his sinful urges. Which, at that point, I would guess
involved women, beer, and a newly discovered blood lust with just a spark of
the sadism that identifies Angelus.
Shannon
himiko
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> That is the object of the game. You sit in a circle with a group of people
> and the bottle goes in the middle. When it's your turn to spin you hope the
> bottle ends up pointing to the person you really want to kiss. Quite a bit
> of risk is involved because the deal is you end up with whoever the bottle
> points to, like it or not. Sometimes it's as simple as a kiss, sometimes
> it's five minutes in the closet, sometimes...well, I won't go there. At any
> rate, it's letting fate choose your mate, or loving the one you're with.
> The title applies fairly accurately to the relationships going at the
> moment.
Thank you. I somehow totally missed the symbolism of that.
> Wesley would rather kiss Fred, but he's settled for Lilah. Angel
> would rather kiss Buffy, but he's fixated on Cordelia. Cordelia doesn't
> know what she wants, so she's settled on Connor. Fred was desperate to not
> be as alone as she was on Pylea, ever again, so she's latched onto Gunn.
And he to her. These are two lonely orphans escaping from two
different hell dimensions, one of them (Gunn's) right here on earth.
I'm not so sure these show what they really want v. what they've
settled for though. It may just be that the bottle is still
spinning....until Cordy messes everything up by stopping it too soon
because they all get scared.
> I wonder if someone did the Tabula Rasa on JW. Cordelia Chase at 17 not
> only knew that vampires and demons existed, she also knew Wesley and Angel.
> If she was supposed to be Cordelia at 15 or younger she was awfully mature
> sexually speaking. Still, pretty much Cordelia when we first met her.
Yeah. Bit of an oops there.
But I think the comparison to TR is fairly superficial. TR was used
to expose everyone's true, inner self. This "back to 17" spell
revealed how much the characters have changed.
>
> It was good to see goofy, insecure, Wesley again. AD has a knack for
> physical comedy and we don't get to see enough of it.
>
> Gunn was more of a bad ass and a bully than I remembered him.
>
> Angel is Liam. Liam has been there all along,
I don't agree. The contrast between Liam who just wants to go chasing
after tavern wenches and a good beer, and Angel who yearns for true
love and a cause he can really commit to couldn't be more dramatic.
> which means that William has
> been in Spike all along. They are not totally different entities and I
> don't see how Joss Whedon might have made that any plainer than he did last
> night.
Now, that I agree with. And something similar happens in CWDP coming
up tomorrow night on BTVS.
> Like Spike, Angel didn't even realize he was a vampire at first.
> Once he did, his first instincts were not to kill. (Unlike the Rance Howard
> character last season who was geared up for evil the minute he realized what
> he was.) Angel didn't want to hurt anyone until the gang attacked him.
> Then he had no compunction about eating them.
He might have been joking. After all, he still has his soul if not
his memories.
> Liam wants to indulge himself
> with sex and drinking, he's not into fighting. When he is Angelus he
> prefers to indulge himself in torture and killing, but he's still not into
> fighting. Spike, of course, is into fighting, whether he's souled or not,
> or even knows who the heck he is. Whedon has made it obvious that the soul
> doesn't change their essential personalities. What does make a difference
> is time and interaction with others.
And this too. But I don't think that means Spike or Angel still *are*
William or Liam. These entities live within them as my 5 year-old
self still lives within me. At a very primitive level, we may still
be the same person, but I'm not her any longer, and she does not exist
at all as a separate being; she's long since been merged into a new
critter I call me. This is also true of the human characters in a
more literal sense; it's the spell that recreates their old selves.
In the same way, Angel and Spike are no longer their human selves.
Interesting to know that even the dead do grow and change.
> Fred was the truest to her current character. She's basically a down to
> earth, nice, caring, trusting, person, who wants to smoke pot.
But not so scared or jittery.
> The purpose of this episode, I believe, was to show us how these people have
> served to change one another over the course of the last four years.
> Cordelia is much more sensitive to other peoples feelings and has learned
> that there is more to life than being the Slayer of dating. Gunn has
> learned to play well with others, at least some of the time, that not all
> demons are evil, and that a little planning and forethought can go along
> way. Wesley has become more confident, less likely to spout off about every
> single thing that he knows, and more likely to listen to what others have to
> say. Fred has become more self-reliant, less trusting, and a shade less
> ditsy. Angel has become a groupie. He now wants and needs other people in
> his life that accept him and care about him.
>
> By the same token, this episode shows to what extent these characters have
> remained the same. In times of stress and pressure they revert very much to
> their old habits. Cordelia lost focus of the mission and everyone else's
> feelings to the exclusion of her relationship with Angel. Gunn is inclined
> to act first, think later, discriminate against demons, and make up his own
> rules. Wesley is an insufferable know it all, too insecure to admit that
> he's made a mistake or needs help. Fred is inclined to be clingy and
> dependent. Angel is very sensitive to a lack of trust and faith shown by
> those who care about him and has that nasty, nasty, tendency towards
> physical brutality when he's annoyed.
Very nice analysis...both of the characters and the episode.
> As far as character episodes go, "Spin the Bottle" was tops. Whedon is the
> creator and he knows exactly what it is that he's created. Storytelling,
> not so good. Although, there were a few really good comic moments. What
> has me confused the most is the ending. What is it that Cordelia is running
> away from? What has changed since she floated away last spring? Did
> Lorne's magic potion restore her common sense? She still has feelings for
> Angel. Clearly, he is still attracted to her. Is it because she realized
> just how much she had started to revert to her former boy crazy, who gives a
> damn about anyone else, self? Because Liam chasing her around the hotel
> reminded her what of Angelus is capable of? Because she has feelings for
> Connor now, too? A combination?
And above all, what is the "all" she now remembers. And who's eyes
were those?
himiko
SWeick
angied...@aol.computer (The Fish Girl) writes:
>>It was good to see goofy, insecure, Wesley again. AD has a knack for
>>physical comedy and we don't get to see enough of it.
>
>Amen, would LOVE to see more.
Then when the series is over, have AD do a series where his
pratfall fit. It doesn't fit here.
ASH is a fine vocalist/stylist singer. The first three
seasons, arguable the best, of BtVS never had him sing.
Why? Because that's not Giles. Wesley returning to a
stumblebum incompetent would be worst than S4 Pod Giles.
Just because an actor has many talents doesn't mean you
use them when they just don't fit the series. Cause many
actors have multiple talents so you'd be fitting junk in
that doesn't work.
So a big *NO!* to bringing back Wesley's incompetence
and pratfalls.
Big *YES!* to having AD later use those abilities in other
TV/Films. Possibly even an ME produced one, with AH
as his costar.
Stephen Weick | A pleasingly pleasantly pettish person.
In episode 6, it will be revealed that Buffy and Xander eloped and
have been secretly married for a month and a half. - Zombie Elvis
DarkMagic
"himiko" <him...@animail.net> wrote in message
news:c7902983.02111...@posting.google.com...
might have happened if she hadn't?
> > I wonder if someone did the Tabula Rasa on JW. Cordelia Chase at 17 not
> > only knew that vampires and demons existed, she also knew Wesley and
Angel.
> > If she was supposed to be Cordelia at 15 or younger she was awfully
mature
> > sexually speaking. Still, pretty much Cordelia when we first met her.
>
> Yeah. Bit of an oops there.
>
> But I think the comparison to TR is fairly superficial. TR was used
> to expose everyone's true, inner self. This "back to 17" spell
> revealed how much the characters have changed.
> >
> > It was good to see goofy, insecure, Wesley again. AD has a knack for
> > physical comedy and we don't get to see enough of it.
> >
> > Gunn was more of a bad ass and a bully than I remembered him.
> >
> > Angel is Liam. Liam has been there all along,
>
> I don't agree. The contrast between Liam who just wants to go chasing
> after tavern wenches and a good beer, and Angel who yearns for true
> love and a cause he can really commit to couldn't be more dramatic.
>
Angel is Liam all grown up. He's gone through his ne'er do well phase, felt
his oats, and is ready to move on, complete with sending Connor the same
sort of messages his own Father was trying to send him. And Angel still has
Liam's nasty habit of being physically abusive and a little bit sadistic
when he's really irritated and he feels his detractors deserve it. I have
actually never been able to make much of a connection between Liam and Angel
before, but I sure can now. Whedon knows what he's about.
> > which means that William has
> > been in Spike all along. They are not totally different entities and I
> > don't see how Joss Whedon might have made that any plainer than he did
last
> > night.
>
> Now, that I agree with. And something similar happens in CWDP coming
> up tomorrow night on BTVS.
>
> > Like Spike, Angel didn't even realize he was a vampire at first.
> > Once he did, his first instincts were not to kill. (Unlike the Rance
Howard
> > character last season who was geared up for evil the minute he realized
what
> > he was.) Angel didn't want to hurt anyone until the gang attacked him.
> > Then he had no compunction about eating them.
>
> He might have been joking. After all, he still has his soul if not
> his memories.
>
We already know that Angel, with a soul, has killed and eaten people he
thought deserved to be killed and eaten. And we know that Angel reacts to
distrust and betrayal with extreme brutality. He sure didn't look to me
like he was chasing Cordelia around for a game of slap and tickle. He made
his motives and desires pretty clear.
> > Liam wants to indulge himself
> > with sex and drinking, he's not into fighting. When he is Angelus he
> > prefers to indulge himself in torture and killing, but he's still not
into
> > fighting. Spike, of course, is into fighting, whether he's souled or
not,
> > or even knows who the heck he is. Whedon has made it obvious that the
soul
> > doesn't change their essential personalities. What does make a
difference
> > is time and interaction with others.
>
> And this too. But I don't think that means Spike or Angel still *are*
> William or Liam. These entities live within them as my 5 year-old
> self still lives within me. At a very primitive level, we may still
> be the same person, but I'm not her any longer, and she does not exist
> at all as a separate being; she's long since been merged into a new
> critter I call me. This is also true of the human characters in a
> more literal sense; it's the spell that recreates their old selves.
> In the same way, Angel and Spike are no longer their human selves.
> Interesting to know that even the dead do grow and change.
>
Right. William and Liam are every bit as present in Spike and Angel as old
Wesley and old Cordy are present in Wesely and Cordelia. Time, experience,
and relationships do change the way people react to the world around them.
As we see, though, it doesn't change the true essence of the person.
The eyes reminded me of "demon" Buffy eyes in the UPN promos. Only yellow,
not red. I'd like to know what she remembers too. Obviously, it's not just
the googly, shucks "I love Angel" thing she was experiencing before her
heavenly ascent.
Shannon
Don Sample
<slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
> news:111120021331168395%dsa...@synapse.net...
> > In article <NqCcnXv8z67...@comcast.com>, DarkMagic
> > <slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Spoilers
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> > > Liam wants to indulge himself
> > > with sex and drinking, he's not into fighting.
> >
> > I got the impression that Liam still hadn't gotten into the sex and
> > drinking phase of his life.
> >
> Well, he wanted an ale.
My impression was that was a case of "I don't care what my dad says
about the evils of drink! When I get home I'm having a drink!" Liam
was in the state where he was chafing under the restrictions his father
was putting on him, but hadn't yet really started his active rebellion
against them.
> And he couldn't choose between Cordy and Fred when
> he decided to indulge his urges. If he was just hungry and there weren't
> any sexual urges at play he might as well have started with Gunn who was
> already unconscious. He told Connor he wasn't much interesting in fighting
> just in fulfilling his sinful urges. Which, at that point, I would guess
> involved women, beer, and a newly discovered blood lust with just a spark of
> the sadism that identifies Angelus.
>
>
> Shannon
My impression was that Liam decided "Okay, I'm an evil vampire, and
evil vampires are supposed to act this way, so I'll act this way." But
he wasn't really enjoying it, and probably wouldn't have been able to
bring himself to actually killing anyone.
Tammy Stephanie Davis
DarkMagic <slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
:
:"himiko" <him...@animail.net> wrote in message
:news:c7902983.02111...@posting.google.com...
:> "DarkMagic" <slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
:news:<NqCcnXv8z67...@comcast.com>...
:> > Spoilers
<Lots deleted>
:We already know that Angel, with a soul, has killed and eaten people he
:thought deserved to be killed and eaten.
When did Angel kill *and* eat/feed from people? I don't remember this
being the case. I know he killed during the Boxer Rebellion, but
I thought what aroused Darla suspicion that his soul still ruled
his actions was that Angel was killing murders, rapists etc. *and*
he wasn't feeding from them.
--
Beevo
> Spoilers
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> only knew that vampires and demons existed, she also knew Wesley and Angel.
> If she was supposed to be Cordelia at 15 or younger she was awfully mature
> sexually speaking. Still, pretty much Cordelia when we first met her.
first appeared in the middle of their sophmore year. She reacted to
Angel much the way she did when she first saw him in BTVS Season 1.
DarkMagic
the doubt, Don.;) I'm going to go with he would have eaten Cordelia and
enjoyed it just because he's peeved that the gang attacked him and treated
him like he was nothing and had no feelings. Angel, much like the Liam he
used to be, is very capable of holding a serious grudge, being brutal and
unforgiving to his enemies, and is just a little bit sadistic.
Shannon
DarkMagic
"Tammy Stephanie Davis" <t...@tetris.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> wrote in message
news:CMUz9.713$ho1....@news.itd.umich.edu...
I don't remember Darla specifying that he wasn't eating them. Maybe she
did. At any rate, Angel has killed humans that he felt deserved to be
killed. Apparently, Liam felt that the gang deserved to be eaten after the
way they treated him, and I think that attitude fits in with Angel as we
know him.
Shannon
DarkMagic
"SWeick" <swe...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021111143511...@mb-cf.aol.com...
> In article <20021111133005...@mb-mn.aol.com>,
> angied...@aol.computer (The Fish Girl) writes:
>
> >>It was good to see goofy, insecure, Wesley again. AD has a knack for
> >>physical comedy and we don't get to see enough of it.
> >
> >Amen, would LOVE to see more.
>
>
> Then when the series is over, have AD do a series where his
> pratfall fit. It doesn't fit here.
>
> ASH is a fine vocalist/stylist singer. The first three
> seasons, arguable the best, of BtVS never had him sing.
> Why? Because that's not Giles. Wesley returning to a
> stumblebum incompetent would be worst than S4 Pod Giles.
>
seasons. I agree that having Wesley return to his previous stumbling and
goofy self would be regression. There are other ways that ME might make use
of his physical humor though. SMG also has a gift for physical humor and ME
uses it very competently without making her look like a fool.
Shannon>
>
Growltiger
<111120021533107988%dsa...@synapse.net>...
My sense of it is that Liam* wanted out of the hotel in the worst way.
I also think he was (still) a vampire with a soul but bereft of Angel's
knowledge of the way of the world. From the moment they rise we have
seen that vampire's understand their imperative and that what they were
before informs them but does not govern them. As you observed, Liam was
not driven to kill, but he would do what he had to do to survive.
*I use Liam because that was the operative personality during this
episode. To be sure there was no evidence of the sadistic Angelus or
the regret filled Angel.
Sam
> "himiko" <him...@animail.net> wrote in message
> news:c7902983.02111...@posting.google.com...
> > "DarkMagic" <slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:<NqCcnXv8z67...@comcast.com>...
> > > Spoilers
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > settled for though. It may just be that the bottle is still
> > spinning....until Cordy messes everything up by stopping it too soon
> > because they all get scared.
> >
> Hmmmm......good point. She did stop it before the spell was finished. What
> might have happened if she hadn't?
>
Probably it would have just restored Cordelia's memory. That's all
Lorne did, after all -- finished the spell.
> > > Angel is Liam. Liam has been there all along,
> >
> > I don't agree. The contrast between Liam who just wants to go chasing
> > after tavern wenches and a good beer, and Angel who yearns for true
> > love and a cause he can really commit to couldn't be more dramatic.
> >
> Angel is Liam all grown up. He's gone through his ne'er do well phase, felt
> his oats, and is ready to move on, complete with sending Connor the same
> sort of messages his own Father was trying to send him. And Angel still has
> Liam's nasty habit of being physically abusive and a little bit sadistic
> when he's really irritated and he feels his detractors deserve it. I have
> actually never been able to make much of a connection between Liam and Angel
> before, but I sure can now. Whedon knows what he's about.
>
Yep.
Though it's worth mentioning that one might expect Liam's sadistic
tendencies to be greatly heightened here, since last time he was
seventeen he was just a human with some issues. This time around he
had a soul, but he *was* still a demon with all those sadistic demonic
urges, too.
> > > Like Spike, Angel didn't even realize he was a vampire at first.
> > > Once he did, his first instincts were not to kill. (Unlike the Rance
> Howard
> > > character last season who was geared up for evil the minute he realized
> what
> > > he was.) Angel didn't want to hurt anyone until the gang attacked him.
> > > Then he had no compunction about eating them.
> >
> > He might have been joking. After all, he still has his soul if not
> > his memories.
> >
> We already know that Angel, with a soul, has killed and eaten people he
> thought deserved to be killed and eaten. And we know that Angel reacts to
> distrust and betrayal with extreme brutality.
We also know that Angel still has every single sadistic urge and
impulse that Angelus ever had. He still enjoys hurting and murdering
people. He just feels guilty about it.
He sure didn't look to me
> like he was chasing Cordelia around for a game of slap and tickle. He made
> his motives and desires pretty clear.
>
Yeah. I'm pretty sure that was Whedon remembering that Liam *was*
still a vampire, even if he'd forgotten it.
> > > Liam wants to indulge himself
> > > with sex and drinking, he's not into fighting. When he is Angelus he
> > > prefers to indulge himself in torture and killing, but he's still not
> into
> > > fighting. Spike, of course, is into fighting, whether he's souled or
> not,
> > > or even knows who the heck he is. Whedon has made it obvious that the
> soul
> > > doesn't change their essential personalities. What does make a
> difference
> > > is time and interaction with others.
> >
> > And this too. But I don't think that means Spike or Angel still *are*
> > William or Liam. These entities live within them as my 5 year-old
> > self still lives within me. At a very primitive level, we may still
> > be the same person, but I'm not her any longer, and she does not exist
> > at all as a separate being; she's long since been merged into a new
> > critter I call me. This is also true of the human characters in a
> > more literal sense; it's the spell that recreates their old selves.
> > In the same way, Angel and Spike are no longer their human selves.
> > Interesting to know that even the dead do grow and change.
> >
> Right. William and Liam are every bit as present in Spike and Angel as old
> Wesley and old Cordy are present in Wesely and Cordelia. Time, experience,
> and relationships do change the way people react to the world around them.
> As we see, though, it doesn't change the true essence of the person.
>
Well, it is a bit more complicated with Spike and Angel, though.
Because the only difference between Wesley and Cordelia and their old
selves is time and experience.
Spike and Angel are dealing with time, experience, and a fairly
fundamental alteration to their personality which increases any and
all sadistic, negative, and harmful urges to a tremendous degree.
> > And above all, what is the "all" she now remembers. And who's eyes
> > were those?
> >
> The eyes reminded me of "demon" Buffy eyes in the UPN promos. Only yellow,
> not red. I'd like to know what she remembers too. Obviously, it's not just
> the googly, shucks "I love Angel" thing she was experiencing before her
> heavenly ascent.
>
Based on the previews and Lorne's reading of her, I'm thinking she
remembers some manner of coming darkness and doom.
Linda
He wasn't even given a chance to eat anyone. Yah, he chased Cordelia but for all
we know he may have had the exact same reaction to biting her as he did to the
woman in the alley in *The Prodigal*. You're assuming that he would have eaten
them. I'm assuming he would have reacted as aforementioned.
>
> > >And
> > >souled Liam, without Angel's experiences and memories, has no compunction
> at
> > >all about chowing down on people who annoy him.
> >
> > When he was actually given a baby to eat in the past, he wasn't able to
> > bring himself to do it even though he was trying to be evil at the time.
Right - two examples where he couldn't.
> > --
> And Liam may have not been able to eat a baby, either. He was mostly
> interested in eating the gang because they pre-judged him without even
> giving him a chance. And Angel, we know, has killed and eaten humans with
> his soul. The deciding factor seems to be whether or not he feels like
> they deserve to be eaten. Guilt doesn't seem to be much of an issue for
> him.
He has killed humans when he has his soul but he hasn't eaten them. He ate rats
instead. Darla even commented on it.
--
Best Regards,
Linda
Mmmmmm...Angel
DarkMagic
> In article <_tucnfN09I0...@comcast.com>,
> DarkMagic <slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >The point is that Spike without his current memory doesn't realize he's a
> >vampire. Angel without his current memory doesn't realize he's a
vampire.
> >One vamp with a soul, one without, they both react the same way,
initially,
> >as though they are normal human beings. There is a human entity and a
> >vampire entity in every vampire, souled or not.
>
memories
> of the human; in that sense, there's a human entity inside a vampire.
>
> But human entity in the sense of potential for good is something else.
Whatever human entities lurk in Spike and Angel they are *not* inherently
evil.
>
> >Spike, upon realizing that he's a vamp thinks he's
> >some sort of super-hero, noble vampire fighting for the forces of good.
He
> >doesn't try to eat or hurt anyone and he doesn't have a soul. You can
> >fanwank that any way you want and I'm sure you and many others will, but
> >those are the facts.
>
> A fanwank isn't any explanation. A fanwank is an explanation that wasn't
> intended by the creators. This is usually because they intended something
> else, or because they just didn't think about it at all.
My fanwank is that the human who is vamped accepts the demons posession and
the demons control over it's body. I don't think the human soul goes
anywhere. The "restoration" spell restores the human to control over the
body. I think the evidence supports that fanwank as well as anything else
I've read. Having Angel and Spike react identically to losing their
memories is about as close as any writer will ever come to saying that all
vamps are part human and part demon.
>
> Spike didn't try to eat or hurt anyone because he isn't going to eat Buffy
> regardless, and he isn't going to eat someone else unless he's hungry.
We just don't know that. Spike has certainly killed just for kicks without
being hungry. And he also has hurt Buffy just because he could.
Shannon
Growltiger
<21ced21e.02111...@posting.google.com>...
> "DarkMagic" <slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<M6-dnctI3Jl...@comcast.com>...
> > "himiko" <him...@animail.net> wrote in message
> > news:c7902983.02111...@posting.google.com...
> > > "DarkMagic" <slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:<NqCcnXv8z67...@comcast.com>...
> > > > Spoilers
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > Angel is Liam all grown up. He's gone through his ne'er do well phase, felt
> > his oats, and is ready to move on, complete with sending Connor the same
> > sort of messages his own Father was trying to send him. And Angel still has
> > Liam's nasty habit of being physically abusive and a little bit sadistic
> > when he's really irritated and he feels his detractors deserve it. I have
> > actually never been able to make much of a connection between Liam and Angel
> > before, but I sure can now. Whedon knows what he's about.
> >
>
> Yep.
>
> Though it's worth mentioning that one might expect Liam's sadistic
> tendencies to be greatly heightened here, since last time he was
> seventeen he was just a human with some issues. This time around he
> had a soul, but he *was* still a demon with all those sadistic demonic
> urges, too.
>
I do not believe that we have been shown enough to say that Liam has
ever been sadistic. In last night's episode, Liam was a wastrel, but no
worse than what one would expect from any adolescent who chafes under a
disciplinarian parent. When Darla turned him, Liam was portrayed as a
handsome young lager lout contemplating the theft of family silver. Not
unlike a teen of our era who boosts the family sedan. I saw nothing
there that called for the death penalty.
DarkMagic
"Linda" <li...@DELETESPAMsusieword.com> wrote in message
news:1nXz9.239910$Q5.3...@post-03.news.easynews.com...
and sounding quite a bit like Angelus while he was doing it. Cordelia was
convinced he was going to eat her, Wesley was convinced he was going to eat
her and Connor was convinced he was going to eat her. I'm going with he was
going to eat her.
> >
> > > >And
> > > >souled Liam, without Angel's experiences and memories, has no
compunction
> > at
> > > >all about chowing down on people who annoy him.
> > >
> > > When he was actually given a baby to eat in the past, he wasn't able
to
> > > bring himself to do it even though he was trying to be evil at the
time.
>
> Right - two examples where he couldn't.
>
>
> > > --
> > And Liam may have not been able to eat a baby, either. He was mostly
> > interested in eating the gang because they pre-judged him without even
> > giving him a chance. And Angel, we know, has killed and eaten humans
with
> > his soul. The deciding factor seems to be whether or not he feels like
> > they deserve to be eaten. Guilt doesn't seem to be much of an issue
for
> > him.
>
> He has killed humans when he has his soul but he hasn't eaten them. He ate
rats
> instead. Darla even commented on it.
Still, I'm going with he was ready and willing to eat Cordelia.
>
> --
Shannon
DarkMagic
"Sam" <sam_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:21ced21e.02111...@posting.google.com...
> "DarkMagic" <slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<M6-dnctI3Jl...@comcast.com>...
> > "himiko" <him...@animail.net> wrote in message
> > news:c7902983.02111...@posting.google.com...
> > > "DarkMagic" <slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:<NqCcnXv8z67...@comcast.com>...
> > > > Spoilers
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
>
> > >
> > > I don't agree. The contrast between Liam who just wants to go chasing
> > > after tavern wenches and a good beer, and Angel who yearns for true
> > > love and a cause he can really commit to couldn't be more dramatic.
> > >
> > Angel is Liam all grown up. He's gone through his ne'er do well phase,
felt
> > his oats, and is ready to move on, complete with sending Connor the same
> > sort of messages his own Father was trying to send him. And Angel still
has
> > Liam's nasty habit of being physically abusive and a little bit sadistic
> > when he's really irritated and he feels his detractors deserve it. I
have
> > actually never been able to make much of a connection between Liam and
Angel
> > before, but I sure can now. Whedon knows what he's about.
> >
>
> Yep.
>
> Though it's worth mentioning that one might expect Liam's sadistic
> tendencies to be greatly heightened here, since last time he was
> seventeen he was just a human with some issues. This time around he
> had a soul, but he *was* still a demon with all those sadistic demonic
> urges, too.
>
impact the ways that people evolve. Liam, without the memories of Darla,
the things that Darla and Angel did together, doesn't have the sadistic
streak that Angelus does.
>
> We also know that Angel still has every single sadistic urge and
> impulse that Angelus ever had. He still enjoys hurting and murdering
> people. He just feels guilty about it.
I don't really think that's true. Angel has evolved into a champion. He
wasn't meant to be one, he choose to be one, based on the examples that
Buffy and the gang, and now his own gang have set for him. He's seen what
good people trying to do the right things can accomplish and he wants to do
those things now. Some of those urges are still there, but the pleasure he
takes in them isn't. Kind of like Anya and vengeance. She still knows how
to wreak it as well as ever it just doesn't excite her anymore.
>
> He sure didn't look to me
> > like he was chasing Cordelia around for a game of slap and tickle. He
made
> > his motives and desires pretty clear.
> >
>
> Yeah. I'm pretty sure that was Whedon remembering that Liam *was*
> still a vampire, even if he'd forgotten it.
>
And Cordelia and a few C/A shippers as well. ;)
> Well, it is a bit more complicated with Spike and Angel, though.
> Because the only difference between Wesley and Cordelia and their old
> selves is time and experience.
>
Actually, I think Whedon was showing that it really isn't much more
complicated than that. Everyone has dark urges, Spike and Angel have given
in to theirs, which makes it easier to do it again, and again. Wesley and
Cordelia never have given in to their darkest urges, the temptation is
easier to resist.
> Spike and Angel are dealing with time, experience, and a fairly
> fundamental alteration to their personality which increases any and
> all sadistic, negative, and harmful urges to a tremendous degree.
>
>
Being a vampire removes inhibitions, I don't think it alters personalities.
Harmony is just Harmony with fangs, Darla is every bit the merciless bitch
as a human as she is a vampire, Druscilla is still crazy. The big
difference is the blood lust.
> > > And above all, what is the "all" she now remembers. And who's eyes
> > > were those?
> > >
> > The eyes reminded me of "demon" Buffy eyes in the UPN promos. Only
yellow,
> > not red. I'd like to know what she remembers too. Obviously, it's not
just
> > the googly, shucks "I love Angel" thing she was experiencing before her
> > heavenly ascent.
> >
>
> Based on the previews and Lorne's reading of her, I'm thinking she
> remembers some manner of coming darkness and doom.
What a welcome relief that will be to "Gosh, does Angel love me?"
Shannon
DarkMagic
"Growltiger" <ty...@never.invalid> wrote in message
> Previously on alt.tv.angel, dsa...@synapse.net wrote in article
> <111120021533107988%dsa...@synapse.net>...
> > In article <PZ2cndNDuL-...@comcast.com>, DarkMagic
> > <slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > "Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
> > > news:111120021331168395%dsa...@synapse.net...
> > > > In article <NqCcnXv8z67...@comcast.com>, DarkMagic
> > > > <slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Spoilers
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> >
> > evil vampires are supposed to act this way, so I'll act this way." But
> > he wasn't really enjoying it, and probably wouldn't have been able to
> > bring himself to actually killing anyone.
> >
> >
>
> My sense of it is that Liam* wanted out of the hotel in the worst way.
> I also think he was (still) a vampire with a soul but bereft of Angel's
> knowledge of the way of the world. From the moment they rise we have
> seen that vampire's understand their imperative and that what they were
> before informs them but does not govern them. As you observed, Liam was
> not driven to kill, but he would do what he had to do to survive.
>
> *I use Liam because that was the operative personality during this
> episode. To be sure there was no evidence of the sadistic Angelus or
> the regret filled Angel.
> --
the hotel. He was taunting her the way Angelus taunts his victims. And
Liam was primarily interested in fulfilling his urges, not in fighting.
Angelus isn't much of a fighter either, he likes to plan out and enjoy his
torment more than he likes to kill. As for regret, Liam didn't have
anything to regret, yet.
Shannon
Bethany
>So a big *NO!* to bringing back Wesley's incompetence
>and pratfalls.
Ah, so there is one thing Wesley-related that we can agree on. :-)
Bethany
****************bweber at eden dot rutgers dot edu**********************
"Of course if you don't sign we'll sue your ass off and kill your
children... Just kidding, Donald. No one wants a lawsuit."
************************************************************************
The Jade-Spider
Liam was at a very unfair disadvantage. He had no experience at all
when it comes to combatting the demon that lives inside him. In fact,
he only realized it was there an hour beforehand. Angel is only able
to do battle with it so successfully because he knows it's drives,
it's desires, the evil little things it "whispers" to him when his
human, emotional responses to situations weaken his resolve. Angel can
beat Angelus only because he knows him so well, because he knows the
pain, guilt and horror that naturally follow the death and destruction
he's capable of causing, and because he's always on his guard.
Liam may well have killed Cordy before his sense of morality kicked
in. Some men don't realize what they're becoming until they've already
become it. [In a human's case it would likely be willful negligence,
but in Liam's case the worse desires and impulses were thrust upon him
in an instant, and were lying just beneath the surface.]
It doesn't mean that what we saw were Liam's responses to the
situation. What we saw was Liam's inability to do battle with the evil
within effectively. The demon in him had a perfect opportunity to
strike. It's eternal foe was dazed, confused and stupified. Even
still, Liam's first response was not to slaughter the whole lot of
them like "he," [Angelus] personally, would have if he didn't have a
soul. It took Liam's emotional vulnerability to allow the demon to
take charge.
As it was, the demon probably would have taken advantage of Liam's
inexperience at handling it, possibly killed Cordelia [and/or others],
and then begin to long process of pain, internal reflection, and
anguish that would have recreated Angel. [In fact, putting Liam behind
the wheel would be like giving a child a loaded gun and hoping for
positive results because the child has a "good directed" soul. (To
borrow from LU) Inspite of the fact that the child is inherently good,
nothing good will come from giving the child destructing power. And
that power wouldn't even be all that tempting or seductive to the
child, as the demon's ways and actions were to Liam.]
I don't think that a completely human Liam would have responded in the
way he did. He probably would have just continued to be hurt, found a
place to get drunk, and harass himself for being "womanish."
The Jade-Spider
Jade-Spider) wrote:
>As it was, the demon probably would have taken advantage of Liam's
>inexperience at handling it, possibly killed Cordelia [and/or others],
>and then begin to long process of pain, internal reflection, and
>anguish that would have recreated Angel.
That should be: "And then the long process of pain, internal
reflection, etc. would begin." Triggered, of course, by Liam's soul.
>Inspite of the fact that the child is inherently good,
>nothing good will come from giving the child destructing power.
(Please read: "Destructive power.")
JS (Who needs to take a bit more time double checking his posts).
Sam
> Yep.
> >
> > Though it's worth mentioning that one might expect Liam's sadistic
> > tendencies to be greatly heightened here, since last time he was
> > seventeen he was just a human with some issues. This time around he
> > had a soul, but he *was* still a demon with all those sadistic demonic
> > urges, too.
> >
> I think that Whedon's point was how much life experiences and relationships
> impact the ways that people evolve. Liam, without the memories of Darla,
> the things that Darla and Angel did together, doesn't have the sadistic
> streak that Angelus does.
Not as much, but at the end there it sure looked like he had decided
to kill Cordelia, or was at least seriously considering the
possibility.
That's not something Liam would have done when he was human.
> >
> > We also know that Angel still has every single sadistic urge and
> > impulse that Angelus ever had. He still enjoys hurting and murdering
> > people. He just feels guilty about it.
>
> I don't really think that's true. Angel has evolved into a champion. He
> wasn't meant to be one, he choose to be one, based on the examples that
> Buffy and the gang, and now his own gang have set for him. He's seen what
> good people trying to do the right things can accomplish and he wants to do
> those things now. Some of those urges are still there, but the pleasure he
> takes in them isn't. Kind of like Anya and vengeance. She still knows how
> to wreak it as well as ever it just doesn't excite her anymore.
Except that they've made a point of showing otherwise pretty directly
on a bunch of occasions. Off the top of my head, check out the closing
scene of "Somnambulist", where Angel was experiencing the murders
committed by another vampire he sired. He's feeling quite down on
himself because *he enjoyed killing those people*, even if it wasn't
really him that did it. There have been a number of references to
this, going all the way back to Angel telling Buffy that he didn't
attack her mom... but he sure wanted to.
The Darla dreams in the second season played on this too. Murder and
violence still get Angel as hot and bothered now as they ever did.
It's just that now he has a conscience telling him that he shouldn't
indulge that aspect of himself.
> >
> > He sure didn't look to me
> > > like he was chasing Cordelia around for a game of slap and tickle. He
> made
> > > his motives and desires pretty clear.
> > >
> >
> > Yeah. I'm pretty sure that was Whedon remembering that Liam *was*
> > still a vampire, even if he'd forgotten it.
> >
> And Cordelia and a few C/A shippers as well. ;)
>
Yep.
> > Well, it is a bit more complicated with Spike and Angel, though.
> > Because the only difference between Wesley and Cordelia and their old
> > selves is time and experience.
> >
> Actually, I think Whedon was showing that it really isn't much more
> complicated than that. Everyone has dark urges, Spike and Angel have given
> in to theirs, which makes it easier to do it again, and again. Wesley and
> Cordelia never have given in to their darkest urges, the temptation is
> easier to resist.
>
Except that this was Liam before he'd given in to those dark urges,
and yet the demonic behavior *still* showed up eventually.
> > Spike and Angel are dealing with time, experience, and a fairly
> > fundamental alteration to their personality which increases any and
> > all sadistic, negative, and harmful urges to a tremendous degree.
> >
> >
> Being a vampire removes inhibitions, I don't think it alters personalities.
> Harmony is just Harmony with fangs, Darla is every bit the merciless bitch
> as a human as she is a vampire, Druscilla is still crazy. The big
> difference is the blood lust.
>
Well, yeah, but "blood lust" is a pretty big change. It's more than
just a food thing, too. In every vampire we've ever spent any time
focusing on in the history of the show, there's a genuine enjoyment of
inflicting harm on others. We have never seen a vampire who wasn't
sadistic in the history of the show. The sadism expresses itself in
various ways, but every vampire loves to hurt people, even beyond
feeding.
Harmony wasn't just Harmony with fangs, she was Harmony with fangs and
an abiding enjoyment of maiming and killing people. (She wasn't very
*good* at it, but she still did it, albeit generally offscreen.)
And given the screen time they've devoted to the fact that even with
his soul Angel still wants to hurt and kill people, no matter how much
he tries not to, I think it's a pretty intentional choice in
presentation.
> > > > And above all, what is the "all" she now remembers. And who's eyes
> > > > were those?
> > > >
> > > The eyes reminded me of "demon" Buffy eyes in the UPN promos. Only
> yellow,
> > > not red. I'd like to know what she remembers too. Obviously, it's not
> just
> > > the googly, shucks "I love Angel" thing she was experiencing before her
> > > heavenly ascent.
> > >
> >
> > Based on the previews and Lorne's reading of her, I'm thinking she
> > remembers some manner of coming darkness and doom.
>
> What a welcome relief that will be to "Gosh, does Angel love me?"
>
Yeah. I loathe C/A.
> Shannon
DarkMagic
"The Jade-Spider" <thejad...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3dd0a0ec...@news.sf.sbcglobal.net...
I agree. Liam was Angel without Angel's experiences both at being good and
at being evil. In other words, an immature Angel. Whedon is brillant, he
really is.
> Liam may well have killed Cordy before his sense of morality kicked
> in. Some men don't realize what they're becoming until they've already
> become it.
Thinking "Billy."
[In a human's case it would likely be willful negligence,
> but in Liam's case the worse desires and impulses were thrust upon him
> in an instant, and were lying just beneath the surface.]
I don't know what Liam would have done, I think Joss was more intent on
showing Cordelia's response to the fact that Liam was a vampire.
> It doesn't mean that what we saw were Liam's responses to the
> situation. What we saw was Liam's inability to do battle with the evil
> within effectively. The demon in him had a perfect opportunity to
> strike. It's eternal foe was dazed, confused and stupified. Even
> still, Liam's first response was not to slaughter the whole lot of
> them like "he," [Angelus] personally, would have if he didn't have a
> soul. It took Liam's emotional vulnerability to allow the demon to
> take charge.
>
Right. Which shows us that the demon vampire (or first evil) uses it's
victims weaknesses to control and manipulate them.
> As it was, the demon probably would have taken advantage of Liam's
> inexperience at handling it, possibly killed Cordelia [and/or others],
> and then begin to long process of pain, internal reflection, and
> anguish that would have recreated Angel.
Angel is a champion because of Buffy. I don't believe there is any other
set of circumstances or persons who would have put him on the path he treads
today. Liam would have turned into rat boy in the alley.
> I don't think that a completely human Liam would have responded in the
> way he did. He probably would have just continued to be hurt, found a
> place to get drunk, and harass himself for being "womanish."
I don't know, a willingness to strike out at someone who has hurt you is a
willingness to strike out at someone who has hurt you. Certainly, human
Liam wouldn't have been intent on eating anyone, but as we know, vengeance
can take many forms.
Shannon
DarkMagic
> In article <EtydnTG-XM0...@comcast.com>,
> DarkMagic <slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >There is a human entity and a
> >> >vampire entity in every vampire, souled or not.
> >> It depends on what you mean by "human entity". The vampire has the
> >memories
> >> of the human; in that sense, there's a human entity inside a vampire.
> >> But human entity in the sense of potential for good is something else.
> >Whatever human entities lurk in Spike and Angel they are *not* inherently
> >evil.
>
> Spike's hair isn't evil.
No, way. Spike's hair is *definitely* evil.
Well, yeah, it's not. So? It's not good either;
> it's not *anything*, because Spike's memories are completely unable to do
> anything. The demon that uses them *is* evil.
>
I think the demon uses the humans weaknessess to manipulate it into being
evil Without the memory of the demons presence the human entity isn't
inherently evil, it's just human, with equal potential for good or evil.
> A better comparison might be saying my computer isn't evil. Of course
it's
> not--that's up to the guy at the keyboard, the computer doesn't do
anything
> by itself.
>
Maybe your computer isn't evil, I'm no so certain about mine.
> >> A fanwank isn't any explanation. A fanwank is an explanation that
wasn't
> >> intended by the creators.
> >My fanwank is that the human who is vamped accepts the demons posession
and
> >the demons control over it's body.
>
> Well, that certainly fits the definition. It's not only not intended,
it's
> contradicted.
Dracula specifically tells Buffy that she would only become a vampire if she
begged for it. The human does accept the demons presence in its body in
place of death. Therefore, the humans, (William and Liam) are complicit in
the demons evil. That's why, even after being souled, Spike and Angel feel
responsible for everything they've done. That's why everyone else holds
them responsible for everything they've done. That's why Angel tells Buffy
that it isn't the demon in him that needs killing it's the man. The
responsibility thing is a key factor here and it's been brought up over and
over. Willow is responsible for what she's done under the influence of
black magic, Anya is responsible for what she has done as a vengeance demon,
Spike and Angle are responsible for the evil they've done as vampires.
Shannon
Thomas Yan
"DarkMagic" <slnosp...@yahoo.com> writes:
> Spoilers
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
-snip-
> The title applies fairly accurately to the relationships going at the
> moment. Wesley would rather kiss Fred, but he's settled for Lilah. Angel
> would rather kiss Buffy, but he's fixated on Cordelia. Cordelia doesn't
> know what she wants, so she's settled on Connor. Fred was desperate to not
> be as alone as she was on Pylea, ever again, so she's latched onto Gunn.
> The Host, with no romantic entanglements to speak of, wasn't affected by the
> spell at all.
The way you've stated it, it implies to me there is a causal
relationship between the Host having no entanglements and being
unaffected. My theory is that he was unaffected because he had passed
out before Cordelia stamped on the bottle -- yes, stamped, not merely
stepped. It looked deliberate to me, preceded by some exclamation of
concern.
Had Cordy regained most of her memories at that point, and found them
overwhelming, and consequently crushed the bottle in panic /
self-protection / to protect the others from deadly knowledge?
-snip-
> Gunn has figured out
> that Wesley gave Fred a helping hand in her vengeance quest and he isn't
> pleased. Then Lorne shows up with the magic bottle and all hell breaks
> loose.
I was pleased to see that people here were spot on regarding Gunn's
insecurity and jealousy of Wesley.
> I wonder if someone did the Tabula Rasa on JW. Cordelia Chase at 17 not
> only knew that vampires and demons existed, she also knew Wesley and Angel.
> If she was supposed to be Cordelia at 15 or younger she was awfully mature
> sexually speaking. Still, pretty much Cordelia when we first met her.
Hm. Interesting.
-snip-
> As far as character episodes go, "Spin the Bottle" was tops. Whedon is the
> creator and he knows exactly what it is that he's created. Storytelling,
> not so good. Although, there were a few really good comic moments. What
> has me confused the most is the ending.
That demon looked familiar. Have we seen him before, or is it just a
family resemblance since the same special effects department is doing
all / most of the demon makeup?
> What is it that Cordelia is running away from?
My impression is that she knows something about an impending doom, and
that same knowledge is why she tap-danced on the bottle.
> What has changed since she floated away last spring? Did Lorne's
> magic potion restore her common sense? She still has feelings for
> Angel. Clearly, he is still attracted to her. Is it because she
> realized just how much she had started to revert to her former boy
> crazy, who gives a damn about anyone else, self? Because Liam
> chasing her around the hotel reminded her what of Angelus is capable
> of? Because she has feelings for Connor now, too? A combination?
I think the answer to most of those questions is "no".
Don Sample
<slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Ken Arromdee" <arro...@yellow.rahul.net> wrote in message
> news:aqpnnd$uec$1...@blue.rahul.net...
> > In article <EtydnTG-XM0...@comcast.com>,
> > DarkMagic <slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >My fanwank is that the human who is vamped accepts the demons posession
> > >and the demons control over it's body.
> >
> > Well, that certainly fits the definition. It's not only not intended,
> > it's contradicted.
>
> Dracula specifically tells Buffy that she would only become a vampire if she
> begged for it.
But Dracula is also portrayed as being weird that way. Begging isn't a
normal vampire requirement. It's just how Drac got his jollies.
From _Buffy Vs Dracula_:
Willow: Okay. Dracula's modus operandi is different from other
vampires. He will kill just to feed, but he'd rather
have a connection with his victims.
...
Giles: The point is, though he goes through the motions of an
intimate seduction, the end result is the same. He turns
them into a vampire.
> The human does accept the demons presence in its body in
> place of death. Therefore, the humans, (William and Liam) are complicit in
> the demons evil.
No they don't. It has also been explicitly stated that vampires can
force the change on unwilling victims.
From _Reunion_:
Angel: I should have stopped them. They made her drink. She
didn't want to. You think that you can resist, but
then it's-it's-it's too late.
> That's why, even after being souled, Spike and Angel feel
> responsible for everything they've done. That's why everyone else holds
> them responsible for everything they've done.
No one has ever blamed Liam, William, Drusilla, Jesse or Harmony for
becoming vampires. Spike and Angel feel guilt because they remember
killing thousands of people, and having fun doing it.
> That's why Angel tells Buffy
> that it isn't the demon in him that needs killing it's the man.
After First Evil has spent a couple days telling him what a worthless
shit he has always been, just like his daddy had while he was still
alive.
H.G.Hettinger
Spoilers for Spin the Bottle
On Mon, 11 Nov 2002 10:29:05 -0500, "DarkMagic"
<slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>If she was supposed to be Cordelia at 15 or younger she was awfully mature
>sexually speaking. Still, pretty much Cordelia when we first met her.
Cordy's first thought was that she was the victim of a sophomore
hazing prank. How old are you generally when you become a sophomore?
15?
And Cordy has never made a beef about the fact that catching a rich
husband at the first possible chance was the top priority of her
life... - until Angel and Doyle made her realize that she wanted more
in S1 of Angel.
hgh
Angel: "Everything I touch - turns to ashes."
H.G.Hettinger
Spoilers for Spin the Bottle
On Mon, 11 Nov 2002 14:43:44 -0500, "DarkMagic"
<slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Angel is Liam all grown up. He's gone through his ne'er do well phase, felt
>his oats, and is ready to move on, complete with sending Connor the same
>sort of messages his own Father was trying to send him. And Angel still has
>Liam's nasty habit of being physically abusive and a little bit sadistic
>when he's really irritated and he feels his detractors deserve it.
Okay, just where did you get the idea that Liam has a sadistic or
violent streak and who did you see that confirmed in this episode?
Because, me? I'm have been and am still getting the exact opposite
impression as far as Liam's character is concerned.
Tammy Stephanie Davis
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
:In article <eoednR5Vvqg...@comcast.com>, DarkMagic
Also this from Doppleganger as Evil Willow chases Willow to make her
a vampire:
Evil Willow: (stalks grimly around the counter) You don't wanna play, I
guess I can't force you.
(Willow reaches under the counter for what she originally came
for and pulls out the dart rifle just as Evil Willow comes
through the door to behind the counter.)
Evil Willow: Oh, wait.
(Willow locks the bolt in place.)
Evil Willow: (smiling meanly) I can.
And from The Initiative when Spike breaks into Willow's dorm:
Spike: I'll give you a choice. (He walks over to her.) Now I'm gonna kill
you. No choice in that. But... I can let you stay dead... Or...
Bring you back, to be like me.
Don't know how it can be presented more explicitly that in the Buffyverse
when a vampire decides to make you a vampire, thats it. You have no
choice.
:> That's why, even after being souled, Spike and Angel feel
:> responsible for everything they've done. That's why everyone else holds
:> them responsible for everything they've done.
:
:No one has ever blamed Liam, William, Drusilla, Jesse or Harmony for
:becoming vampires. Spike and Angel feel guilt because they remember
:killing thousands of people, and having fun doing it.
And what about Holtz's nine-year-old daughter? Or Drusilla who was
insane at the time she was vamped? How can either of them possibly be
complicit in the demon's evil when one was too young to make the
supposed decision and other too insane.
:> That's why Angel tells Buffy
:> that it isn't the demon in him that needs killing it's the man.
:
:After First Evil has spent a couple days telling him what a worthless
:shit he has always been, just like his daddy had while he was still
:alive.
And couple this with Angel's recent return from a hundred-year trip in
hell, and you have someone who wasn't exactly holding himself in high esteem.
--
Don Sample
<h...@digitalexp.com> wrote:
> Spoilers for Spin the Bottle
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, 11 Nov 2002 10:29:05 -0500, "DarkMagic"
> <slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >If she was supposed to be Cordelia at 15 or younger she was awfully mature
> >sexually speaking. Still, pretty much Cordelia when we first met her.
>
> Cordy's first thought was that she was the victim of a sophomore
> hazing prank. How old are you generally when you become a sophomore?
> 15?
Being the victim of a sophomore hazing prank doesn't necessarily make
you a sophomore.
The Jade-Spider
<slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Angel is a champion because of Buffy. I don't believe there is any other
>set of circumstances or persons who would have put him on the path he treads
>today. Liam would have turned into rat boy in the alley.
It's true that he is where he is today because of Buffy, but, the show
has made a clear point of the fact that Angel has some grand destiny.
So, I'd have to assume that even if he lost his memory, and had to
start over as "teen Angel," TBTB would somehow guide him back onto the
path to being a champion.
>> I don't think that a completely human Liam would have responded in the
>> way he did. He probably would have just continued to be hurt, found a
>> place to get drunk, and harass himself for being "womanish."
>I don't know, a willingness to strike out at someone who has hurt you is a
>willingness to strike out at someone who has hurt you. Certainly, human
>Liam wouldn't have been intent on eating anyone, but as we know, vengeance
>can take many forms.
What kind of striking out do you feel human Liam was prone to? And do
you think it would have been outside the realm of a person's typical
response to the situation[s]?
I can imagine a human Liam convincing some guys to jump
Wes & Gunn for trying to kill him, [if he could ever get past those
shiny demons], but I can't really picture him doing more than that [or
harming the women physically].
Don Sample
Davis <t...@rygar.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> wrote:
> In article <121120021648510669%dsa...@synapse.net>,
> Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
> :In article <eoednR5Vvqg...@comcast.com>, DarkMagic
> :<slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> :
> :
> :> The human does accept the demons presence in its body in
> :> place of death. Therefore, the humans, (William and Liam) are complicit in
> :> the demons evil.
> :
[ Snip a bunch of examples of vamps saying that the vampee has no
choice ]
>
> And from The Initiative when Spike breaks into Willow's dorm:
>
> Spike: I'll give you a choice. (He walks over to her.) Now I'm gonna kill
> you. No choice in that. But... I can let you stay dead... Or...
> Bring you back, to be like me.
That one doesn't support the idea that the vampee has no choice. Spike
tells Willow that he is letting her choose.
Tammy Stephanie Davis
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
:In article <_4iA9.759$ho1....@news.itd.umich.edu>, Tammy Stephanie
:Davis <t...@rygar.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> wrote:
:
:> In article <121120021648510669%dsa...@synapse.net>,
:> Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
:> :In article <eoednR5Vvqg...@comcast.com>, DarkMagic
:> :<slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
:> :
:> :
:> :> The human does accept the demons presence in its body in
:> :> place of death. Therefore, the humans, (William and Liam) are complicit in
:> :> the demons evil.
:> :
:
:[ Snip a bunch of examples of vamps saying that the vampee has no
:choice ]
:
:>
:> And from The Initiative when Spike breaks into Willow's dorm:
:>
:> Spike: I'll give you a choice. (He walks over to her.) Now I'm gonna kill
:> you. No choice in that. But... I can let you stay dead... Or...
:> Bring you back, to be like me.
:
:That one doesn't support the idea that the vampee has no choice. Spike
:tells Willow that he is letting her choose.
Well I thought he was being sarcastic; that he was saying that
he was going to kill her, period. And that it was *his* choice
to let her stay dead or make her a vampire. But now that you mention
it, it can be interpreted either way.
--
DarkMagic
> In article <eoednR5Vvqg...@comcast.com>, DarkMagic
> <slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > "Ken Arromdee" <arro...@yellow.rahul.net> wrote in message
> > news:aqpnnd$uec$1...@blue.rahul.net...
> > > In article <EtydnTG-XM0...@comcast.com>,
> > > DarkMagic <slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > >My fanwank is that the human who is vamped accepts the demons
posession
> > > >and the demons control over it's body.
> > >
> > > Well, that certainly fits the definition. It's not only not intended,
> > > it's contradicted.
> >
> > Dracula specifically tells Buffy that she would only become a vampire if
she
> > begged for it.
>
> But Dracula is also portrayed as being weird that way. Begging isn't a
> normal vampire requirement. It's just how Drac got his jollies.
>
> From _Buffy Vs Dracula_:
>
> Willow: Okay. Dracula's modus operandi is different from other
> vampires. He will kill just to feed, but he'd rather
> have a connection with his victims.
Maybe. Drac was peculiar in a lot of ways from other vampires we've known
in the B-verse. It's still possible that he was telling Buffy the truth,
that she couldn't become a vampire unless she was prepared to reject death
and wanted to become a vampire. ...
>
> Giles: The point is, though he goes through the motions of an
> intimate seduction, the end result is the same. He turns
> them into a vampire.
>
> > The human does accept the demons presence in its body in
> > place of death. Therefore, the humans, (William and Liam) are complicit
in
> > the demons evil.
>
> No they don't. It has also been explicitly stated that vampires can
> force the change on unwilling victims.
>
> From _Reunion_:
> Angel: I should have stopped them. They made her drink. She
> didn't want to. You think that you can resist, but
> then it's-it's-it's too late.
I won't argue that a person who is about to be vamped isn't in a do or die
situation. It's the very crux of the issue. How many of us would accept
death over eternal life when the moment is at hand? But, Christian
philosophy tells believers in Jesus that his gift to them is eternal life.
A true believer in Christianity would accept death knowing that eternal life
awaited them in heaven. This is why vampires are rejected by the cross,
they have rejected Jesus (symbolized by the crucifex) and his promise of
eternal life in favor of the demons promise of eternal life. Drac's
explanation also fits with the invitation issue. If a vampire demon can't
enter a person's home without an invitation it makes no sense that it could
enter a person's body without an invitation.
>
> > That's why, even after being souled, Spike and Angel feel
> > responsible for everything they've done. That's why everyone else holds
> > them responsible for everything they've done.
>
> No one has ever blamed Liam, William, Drusilla, Jesse or Harmony for
> becoming vampires. Spike and Angel feel guilt because they remember
> killing thousands of people, and having fun doing it.
>
No, because how many people wouldn't make exactly the same choice in the
same circumstances? Drained of blood, at the point of death, none of these
people are in a clear frame of mind when they decide to accept the offer to
drink. The demon manipulates humans with their worst fear, death. It
then continues to manipulate the human it inhabits by taking advantage of
it's human weaknesses. In Spike's case, love, in Angel's case, revenge, in
Harmony's case, greed, in Druscilla's case, insanity. Spike and Angel feel
guilty because they *are* guilty.
>
> > That's why Angel tells Buffy
> > that it isn't the demon in him that needs killing it's the man.
>
> After First Evil has spent a couple days telling him what a worthless
> shit he has always been, just like his daddy had while he was still
> alive.
Angel knows that Liam made the choice to become a vampire and that the demon
has been manipulating Liam's weaknesses all along. It is the vampire demon
that is evil, but it is the human who is weak.
Shannon
DarkMagic
"Tammy Stephanie Davis" <t...@rygar.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> wrote in message
news:_4iA9.759$ho1....@news.itd.umich.edu...
> Also this from Doppleganger as Evil Willow chases Willow to make her
> a vampire:
>
> Evil Willow: (stalks grimly around the counter) You don't wanna play, I
> guess I can't force you.
>
> (Willow reaches under the counter for what she originally came
> for and pulls out the dart rifle just as Evil Willow comes
> through the door to behind the counter.)
>
> Evil Willow: Oh, wait.
>
> (Willow locks the bolt in place.)
>
> Evil Willow: (smiling meanly) I can.
She can force her to "play". Vampires are stronger than humans. She can
force Willow to the point of choosing eternal undead life or death.
>
> And from The Initiative when Spike breaks into Willow's dorm:
>
> Spike: I'll give you a choice. (He walks over to her.) Now I'm gonna kill
> you. No choice in that. But... I can let you stay dead... Or...
> Bring you back, to be like me.
>
> Don't know how it can be presented more explicitly that in the Buffyverse
> when a vampire decides to make you a vampire, thats it. You have no
> choice.
>
That statement is a direct contradiction to your argument. Spike
specifically say's "I'll give you a choice." The vampire blood is Spike's
to offer, he doesn't have to do that. He can kill Willow and she can stay
dead. Or he can offer her the blood and give her the choice to drink it.
Typical of Spike, he's evil, but he's honestly evil.
> :> That's why, even after being souled, Spike and Angel feel
> :> responsible for everything they've done. That's why everyone else
holds
> :> them responsible for everything they've done.
> :
> :No one has ever blamed Liam, William, Drusilla, Jesse or Harmony for
> :becoming vampires. Spike and Angel feel guilt because they remember
> :killing thousands of people, and having fun doing it.
>
> And what about Holtz's nine-year-old daughter? Or Drusilla who was
> insane at the time she was vamped? How can either of them possibly be
> complicit in the demon's evil when one was too young to make the
> supposed decision and other too insane.
>
They are complicit in the demon's evil, they reject death in favor of
demonic life, and who the heck wouldn't? There is no way that Holtz's
daughter understood what she was getting into, but most victims don't really
understand what they're getting into. They are put into a do or die
situation, a metaphorical gun to their head. It's unfair, it's horribly
unfair, but the Buffyverse is nothing, if it's not unfair. And that's the
whole point, Buffy's job is to put an end to these creatures who have made
the descision to avoid death at any cost. In short, to put the universe
back where it should be. These people were going to die when they made the
choice they did, now it's her job to make sure that they do just that.
Shannon
DarkMagic
> On Tue, 12 Nov 2002 15:34:15 -0500, "DarkMagic"
> <slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >Angel is a champion because of Buffy. I don't believe there is any other
> >set of circumstances or persons who would have put him on the path he
treads
> >today. Liam would have turned into rat boy in the alley.
>
> It's true that he is where he is today because of Buffy, but, the show
> has made a clear point of the fact that Angel has some grand destiny.
> So, I'd have to assume that even if he lost his memory, and had to
> start over as "teen Angel," TBTB would somehow guide him back onto the
> path to being a champion.
Well, I guess that's the question of the season isn't it? We have all
assumed that Angel had some grand destiny based on the prophecies. Since
he's no longer the only vampire with a soul that destiny is up for grabs.
>
> >> I don't think that a completely human Liam would have responded in the
> >> way he did. He probably would have just continued to be hurt, found a
> >> place to get drunk, and harass himself for being "womanish."
>
> >I don't know, a willingness to strike out at someone who has hurt you is
a
> >willingness to strike out at someone who has hurt you. Certainly, human
> >Liam wouldn't have been intent on eating anyone, but as we know,
vengeance
> >can take many forms.
>
> What kind of striking out do you feel human Liam was prone to? And do
> you think it would have been outside the realm of a person's typical
> response to the situation[s]?
The first thing that Liam/Angel did when he rose from the grave was go to
his family's house and kill everyone. He had vengeance in mind, he killed
his Mother and his sister, first, and he made sure that his Father realized
it, then he told his Father he was going to kill him and why. I don't know
if human Liam would have murderous intentions, but he was no stranger to
vengeance.
> I can imagine a human Liam convincing some guys to jump
> Wes & Gunn for trying to kill him, [if he could ever get past those
> shiny demons], but I can't really picture him doing more than that [or
> harming the women physically].
>
Maybe not. But he hadn't known he was a vampire for more than half an hour
and he was fully prepared to feast on the gangs corpses, and that's with a
soul.
Shannon
>
DarkMagic
"H.G.Hettinger" <h...@digitalexp.com> wrote in message
news:2g33tu0ho4b6sef8r...@4ax.com...
>
> Spoilers for Spin the Bottle
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, 11 Nov 2002 14:43:44 -0500, "DarkMagic"
> <slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >Angel is Liam all grown up. He's gone through his ne'er do well phase,
felt
> >his oats, and is ready to move on, complete with sending Connor the same
> >sort of messages his own Father was trying to send him. And Angel still
has
> >Liam's nasty habit of being physically abusive and a little bit sadistic
> >when he's really irritated and he feels his detractors deserve it.
>
> Okay, just where did you get the idea that Liam has a sadistic or
> violent streak and who did you see that confirmed in this episode?
>
Bottle" Liam was perfectly willing to feast on the gangs corpses after they
attacked him, he stalked Cordelia through the hotel, taunting her "I can see
you....", making fun of her scream for help, and he was about to take a bite
when Connor stepped in. Liam then proceeded to whack the heck out of Connor
and when he got bored with it declared his intention to stop fighting and go
back to having fun with Cordelia. That's plenty of violence and sadism for
me.
Shannon
DarkMagic
>
> Spoilers for Spin the Bottle
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, 11 Nov 2002 10:29:05 -0500, "DarkMagic"
> <slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >If she was supposed to be Cordelia at 15 or younger she was awfully
mature
> >sexually speaking. Still, pretty much Cordelia when we first met her.
>
> Cordy's first thought was that she was the victim of a sophomore
> hazing prank. How old are you generally when you become a sophomore?
> 15?
>
for a 15 year old.
> And Cordy has never made a beef about the fact that catching a rich
> husband at the first possible chance was the top priority of her
> life... - until Angel and Doyle made her realize that she wanted more
> in S1 of Angel.
>
Right, which is why I said she was pretty much Cordelia as we knew her when.
Shannon
DarkMagic
news:<ueWdnQCJ-bE...@comcast.com>...
> > Yep.
> > >
> > > Though it's worth mentioning that one might expect Liam's sadistic
> > > tendencies to be greatly heightened here, since last time he was
> > > seventeen he was just a human with some issues. This time around he
> > > had a soul, but he *was* still a demon with all those sadistic demonic
> > > urges, too.
> > >
> > I think that Whedon's point was how much life experiences and
relationships
> > impact the ways that people evolve. Liam, without the memories of
Darla,
> > the things that Darla and Angel did together, doesn't have the sadistic
> > streak that Angelus does.
>
> Not as much, but at the end there it sure looked like he had decided
> to kill Cordelia, or was at least seriously considering the
> possibility.
>
> That's not something Liam would have done when he was human.
We just don't know. Based on the brief glimpse we got of Liam in "Spin the
Bottle" I would have to say that he would be willing to kill someone if he
thought they deserved it. Much like Angel.
>
> > >
> > > We also know that Angel still has every single sadistic urge and
> > > impulse that Angelus ever had. He still enjoys hurting and murdering
> > > people. He just feels guilty about it.
> >
> > I don't really think that's true. Angel has evolved into a champion.
He
> > wasn't meant to be one, he choose to be one, based on the examples that
> > Buffy and the gang, and now his own gang have set for him. He's seen
what
> > good people trying to do the right things can accomplish and he wants to
do
> > those things now. Some of those urges are still there, but the pleasure
he
> > takes in them isn't. Kind of like Anya and vengeance. She still knows
how
> > to wreak it as well as ever it just doesn't excite her anymore.
>
> Except that they've made a point of showing otherwise pretty directly
> on a bunch of occasions. Off the top of my head, check out the closing
> scene of "Somnambulist", where Angel was experiencing the murders
> committed by another vampire he sired. He's feeling quite down on
> himself because *he enjoyed killing those people*, even if it wasn't
> really him that did it.
Right, "he's feeling quite down on himself". Like Anya did after returning
to vengeance. Angel is still perfectly capable of murdering people, a part
of him even wants to do it, but then he feels bad just for wanting to do it.
He doesn't get the enjoyment out of it that he used to as Angelus.
> The Darla dreams in the second season played on this too. Murder and
> violence still get Angel as hot and bothered now as they ever did.
>
> It's just that now he has a conscience telling him that he shouldn't
> indulge that aspect of himself.
>
Right. But, he had that conscience as Liam, too. Angel's experiences and
his interactions with people have had a bigger effect on his morals then the
soul ever did.
> > >
>
> > > Well, it is a bit more complicated with Spike and Angel, though.
> > > Because the only difference between Wesley and Cordelia and their old
> > > selves is time and experience.
> > >
> > Actually, I think Whedon was showing that it really isn't much more
> > complicated than that. Everyone has dark urges, Spike and Angel have
given
> > in to theirs, which makes it easier to do it again, and again. Wesley
and
> > Cordelia never have given in to their darkest urges, the temptation is
> > easier to resist.
> >
>
> Except that this was Liam before he'd given in to those dark urges,
> and yet the demonic behavior *still* showed up eventually.
Liam had dark urges even before he was a vampire. He was a drunk, a
brawler, a womanizer, and he was about to steal from his own parents. Not a
nice guy. Maybe not murderously evil, but maybe not too far from it under
the right circumstances, either. The demonic blood lust changes the nature
of the urges, I don't question that. No matter how evil a human being is
only the very weirdest would actually eat or drink another human being.
But, the demon brings out the worst of the human's weaknesses, too. Liam is
a vengeful person, Angel is a vengeful person, and Angelus is horrifyingly
sadistic and vengeful.
Shannon
>
Tammy Stephanie Davis
DarkMagic <slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
:
:"Tammy Stephanie Davis" <t...@rygar.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> wrote in message
As I mentioned before, I took Spike's statement that he was giving a
choice as being very sarcastic. Note what he says immediately afterwards:
"(He walks over to her.) Now I'm gonna kil you. No choice in that. But...
I can let you stay dead... Or... Bring you back, to be like me."
Notice he says *I* can let you stay dead, etc. not *You* can decide to
stay dead", etc. which meant to me that it was entirely up to Spike
what he was going to do to Willow - that she didn't have a choice.
However, I do realize that this scene can be interpreted either way.
:> :> That's why, even after being souled, Spike and Angel feel
:> :> responsible for everything they've done. That's why everyone else
:holds
:> :> them responsible for everything they've done.
:> :
:> :No one has ever blamed Liam, William, Drusilla, Jesse or Harmony for
:> :becoming vampires. Spike and Angel feel guilt because they remember
:> :killing thousands of people, and having fun doing it.
:>
:> And what about Holtz's nine-year-old daughter? Or Drusilla who was
:> insane at the time she was vamped? How can either of them possibly be
:> complicit in the demon's evil when one was too young to make the
:> supposed decision and other too insane.
:>
:They are complicit in the demon's evil, they reject death in favor of
:demonic life, and who the heck wouldn't? There is no way that Holtz's
:daughter understood what she was getting into, but most victims don't really
:understand what they're getting into. They are put into a do or die
:situation, a metaphorical gun to their head. It's unfair, it's horribly
:unfair, but the Buffyverse is nothing, if it's not unfair. And that's the
:whole point, Buffy's job is to put an end to these creatures who have made
:the descision to avoid death at any cost. In short, to put the universe
:back where it should be. These people were going to die when they made the
:choice they did, now it's her job to make sure that they do just that.
I strongly disagree. There are considerable examples of statements
made by Buffy, Giles, Angel, etc. that the victim *has no choice*. And
you have yet to present one example from the show where its stated
that the victim does have a choice. It just not there.
--
Randy Money
[...]
> > He wasn't even given a chance to eat anyone. Yah, he chased Cordelia but
> > for all we know he may have had the exact same reaction to biting her as he
> > did to the woman in the alley in *The Prodigal*. You're assuming that he would
> > have eaten them. I'm assuming he would have reacted as aforementioned.
> >
> For all we know. He said he was going to eat them, he was stalking Cordelia
> and sounding quite a bit like Angelus while he was doing it. Cordelia was
> convinced he was going to eat her, Wesley was convinced he was going to eat
> her and Connor was convinced he was going to eat her. I'm going with he was
> going to eat her.
Not to really join in the argument, but he didn't sound that much like
Angelus there. He sounded a lot more like a 17-year-old who just
realized he had the keys to daddy's '69 Mustang. He just realized that
as a vampire he had all the strength and speed he needed to get his
way with the pretty lady. Eating might have happened, but I bet other
things would have happened first, like some kissing ...
But I wasn't positive anything really bad would happen. He seemed much
more inclined to hear himself talk, and he let Cordy scream without
stopping her even though it was obviously hurting his ears.
Let's say that I found that portion of the festivities a bit
ambiguous.
Randy
H.G.Hettinger
On Wed, 13 Nov 2002 10:30:21 -0500, "DarkMagic"
<slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>The first thing that Liam/Angel did when he rose from the grave was go to
>his family's house and kill everyone. He had vengeance in mind, he killed
>his Mother and his sister, first, and he made sure that his Father realized
>it, then he told his Father he was going to kill him and why. I don't know
>if human Liam would have murderous intentions, but he was no stranger to
>vengeance.
Did you see the Prodigal?
Wrong the very first thing Angelus did after he rose from the grave
was to bite and kill the grave digger that came along to check on the
commotion.
Then he and Darla went on to kill various people in town before he
finally went home and had Kathy invite him in so he could kill both
her and his mother and wait for his dad to come home so he could show
him that he had finally 'made something of himself' the way his father
had always told him to do.
Then Darla chided him that he didn't do it right. That he didn't win
because now that he had killed him his father could never approve of
him the way Liam had wanted him to do, and so his father's defeat of
him would last a lifetime.
I still maintain that the part of Liam that was most instrumental in
the formation of the vampire Angelus that he became was his desire to
live up to the expectations of the people/beings that matter the most
to him.
As Liam he tired to live up (or as he said himself - down) to his
father's expectations. Once he became a vampire he did everything he
could to live up to Darla's expectations. In Sunnydale he did
everything he could to live up Buffy's expectations of him, and
continued to do so in LA. Then he went through the whole Redefinition
through Epiphany arc where he had to reevaluate and rediscover his
whole philosophy on life (people shouldn't suffer the way they do),
what his goals are (to help people), and what he expects to get out of
it for himself (nothing).
Really not seeing where you get a sadistic or violent streak for Liam,
or what makes you think that the driving force of his character is
vengeance.
> But he hadn't known he was a vampire for more than half an hour
>and he was fully prepared to feast on the gangs corpses, and that's with a
>soul.
So you keep insisting even though there is no real evidence that he
was going to do so. He never once tried to bite anyone. And why in
the world would he want to eat their corpses anyway, when they've
always made such a big point out of how it is drinking the warm blood
of a *living* human that is such a thrill for vampires.
Now he certainly looked tempted by Cordy's neck and her talk about
blood to the point that he vamped out reflexively (leading to his
realization that he was a vampire), but he never followed up on that
urge to bite anyone nor did we get any indication that he was going to
do so - only some empty threats.
>No, because how many people wouldn't make exactly the same choice in the
>same circumstances? Drained of blood, at the point of death, none of these
>people are in a clear frame of mind when they decide to accept the offer to
>drink.
You have absolutely no prove from anywhere in the series that that is
what happens. This is not Forever Knight, nor is the series based on
Anne Rice's books (who's take on vampires was explicitly discredited
as far as Buffy-verse vamps go by Spike in S2 of Buffy).
Show me one instance where there is anyone that was able to refuse
being turned into a vampire. Show me one line that supports your
contention that the soul is still present after the demon takes up
housekeeping.
We have always been told by *everyone* on and off the show that in the
Buffyverse you *die* and *your soul leaves your body* before you are
turned into a vampire by the demon slipping into the void the soul
left behind.
As to your argument that since a demon can't enter a home uninvited so
he can't enter a person without an 'invitation' (the consent of the
person about to be turned into a vampire:
There is no need to 'invite' the demon in - since the soul has left
the building, since the person is *dead* there is no longer a barrier
to keep the vampire demon out.
Your personality and your memories stay behind, but your soul, your
conscience, your drive towards good, your real *you* is gone, replaced
by the demon and his impulses to feed with nothing (no conscience) to
reign them in.
>The demon manipulates humans with their worst fear, death. It
>then continues to manipulate the human it inhabits by taking advantage of
>it's human weaknesses. In Spike's case, love, in Angel's case, revenge, in
>Harmony's case, greed, in Druscilla's case, insanity. Spike and Angel feel
>guilty because they *are* guilty.
It's always so much easier to blame the victim, isn't it? Something
bad happened to this person? Well, he/she must have had it coming to
them. She was raped? Oh, she must have been asking for it. She
could have resisted if she'd really wanted to. - Because rape is the
closest analogy we have in the real world to being turned into a
vampire: in both cases someone is stealing your innocence and
violating your innermost self.
hgh
H.G.Hettinger
<slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>"H.G.Hettinger" <h...@digitalexp.com> wrote in message
>news:2g33tu0ho4b6sef8r...@4ax.com...
>>
>> Spoilers for Spin the Bottle
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 11 Nov 2002 14:43:44 -0500, "DarkMagic"
>> <slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Angel is Liam all grown up. He's gone through his ne'er do well phase,
>felt
>> >his oats, and is ready to move on, complete with sending Connor the same
>> >sort of messages his own Father was trying to send him. And Angel still
>has
>> >Liam's nasty habit of being physically abusive and a little bit sadistic
>> >when he's really irritated and he feels his detractors deserve it.
>>
>> Okay, just where did you get the idea that Liam has a sadistic or
>> violent streak and who did you see that confirmed in this episode?
>>
>In flashbacks we've seen human Liam engage in bar room brawls.
One, and not even one he started, and then we didn't see him use any
particular sadistic or hurtful techniques. In fact he took the fight
so lightly that he let himself get distracted by Darla's smile in the
middle of it. That whole scene didn't make him look particularly
violent, more of a lout joining in the fun without intending to do any
real or serious harm.
>In "Spin the
>Bottle" Liam was perfectly willing to feast on the gangs corpses after they
>attacked him, he stalked Cordelia through the hotel, taunting her "I can see
>you....", making fun of her scream for help, and he was about to take a bite
>when Connor stepped in.
The only time Liam looked tempted to take a bite out of Cordy was up
in her room earlier (when he first vamped out) and it shocked him so
much that he ran away.
He didn't make fun of Cordy's scream, he commented on her voice (or
lack of it).
I will give you the taunting about not being able to hide from him in
the dark - though that could equally be interpreted on him remarking
on the realization that as a vampire he *can* see in the dark.
>Liam then proceeded to whack the heck out of Connor
He clearly didn't use his full force with Gunn or Wes or they would
have been dead - or at the very least in a lot worse shape - at the
end of the episode.
He cut lose with Connor only after he realized that Connor was a lot
stronger and tougher than the others, making him ask if he was a
vampire as well.
>and when he got bored with it declared his intention to stop fighting and go
>back to having fun with Cordelia.
He never said that that was where he was going nor did he look
particularly blood-lusty when he walked away from Connor, more tired
and disgusted (also supported by his 'I didn't ask to be a freak -
hell, I didn't ask to be born' comment).
>That's plenty of violence and sadism for
>me.
And I still don't see it. But hey, if it makes you happy to see Angel
that way, go ahead and keep seeing that.
DarkMagic
"Tammy Stephanie Davis" <t...@millipede.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> wrote in message
news:N9wA9.782$ho1....@news.itd.umich.edu...
> In article <xxadnfN94-4...@comcast.com>,
> DarkMagic <slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> :
> :"Tammy Stephanie Davis" <t...@rygar.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> wrote in message
> :news:_4iA9.759$ho1....@news.itd.umich.edu...
> :>
> :demonic life, and who the heck wouldn't? There is no way that Holtz's
> :daughter understood what she was getting into, but most victims don't
really
> :understand what they're getting into. They are put into a do or die
> :situation, a metaphorical gun to their head. It's unfair, it's horribly
> :unfair, but the Buffyverse is nothing, if it's not unfair. And that's
the
> :whole point, Buffy's job is to put an end to these creatures who have
made
> :the descision to avoid death at any cost. In short, to put the universe
> :back where it should be. These people were going to die when they made
the
> :choice they did, now it's her job to make sure that they do just that.
>
> I strongly disagree. There are considerable examples of statements
> made by Buffy, Giles, Angel, etc. that the victim *has no choice*. And
> you have yet to present one example from the show where its stated
> that the victim does have a choice. It just not there.
I have given an example. Dracula plainly explains the process to Buffy.
She has to be drained almost to the point of death, she has to beg to become
a vampire, and then drink. If the victim has no choice, if the human dies,
and it's soul departs the body, then currently Spike and Angel bear no
responsibility what so ever for their previous actions. At no time has ME
ever stated or indicated even, that was the case. William would have
returned to his body, horrified perhaps by what the vampire had done in his
absence, but not guilty about it.
Shannon
DarkMagic
"Randy Money" <rbm...@library.syr.edu> wrote in message
news:9954fbb1.02111...@posting.google.com...
Cordelia wasn't shrieking bloody murder because Liam was going to kiss her.
She believed he was going to eat her and so do I.
>
> But I wasn't positive anything really bad would happen. He seemed much
> more inclined to hear himself talk, and he let Cordy scream without
> stopping her even though it was obviously hurting his ears.
>
> Let's say that I found that portion of the festivities a bit
> ambiguous.
>
Vampire Liam wasn't as sadistic or evil as Angelus. I'm not saying he was.
I'm saying he was on his way to getting there and that's *with* a soul.
Shannon
DarkMagic
>
>
>
> On Wed, 13 Nov 2002 10:30:21 -0500, "DarkMagic"
> <slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >The first thing that Liam/Angel did when he rose from the grave was go to
> >his family's house and kill everyone. He had vengeance in mind, he
killed
> >his Mother and his sister, first, and he made sure that his Father
realized
> >it, then he told his Father he was going to kill him and why. I don't
know
> >if human Liam would have murderous intentions, but he was no stranger to
> >vengeance.
>
> Did you see the Prodigal?
>
> Wrong the very first thing Angelus did after he rose from the grave
> was to bite and kill the grave digger that came along to check on the
> commotion.
>
Oh, an appetizer.
> Then he and Darla went on to kill various people in town before he
> finally went home and had Kathy invite him in so he could kill both
> her and his mother and wait for his dad to come home so he could show
> him that he had finally 'made something of himself' the way his father
> had always told him to do.
>
So, I missed a few townspeople. That doesn't change the fact that vengeance
against his Father was one of his first acts. He was trying to impress his
Father, but in an evil, twisted, and vengeful fashion. He knew damn well
his Father wouldn't be approve of him and he didn't care. He was just glad
to have the upper hand.
> Then Darla chided him that he didn't do it right. That he didn't win
> because now that he had killed him his father could never approve of
> him the way Liam had wanted him to do, and so his father's defeat of
> him would last a lifetime.
>
Vengeance is a double edged sword. What have we learned if we haven't
learned that?
> I still maintain that the part of Liam that was most instrumental in
> the formation of the vampire Angelus that he became was his desire to
> live up to the expectations of the people/beings that matter the most
> to him.
>
> As Liam he tired to live up (or as he said himself - down) to his
> father's expectations. Once he became a vampire he did everything he
> could to live up to Darla's expectations.
That isn't really true. He stopped short of devouring an infant. Angel had
given up on meeting, or caring about, Darla's expectations well before he
ever met Buffy. Still, when he was living in the Hyperion Hotel in the
fifties he was trying to live up to the expectation that he could help the
people there.
In Sunnydale he did
> everything he could to live up Buffy's expectations of him, and
> continued to do so in LA.
I disagree here also. Angel wasn't trying to live up to Buffy's
expectations, he was trying to live up to the example she set for him. He
figured if a 16 year old innocent girl could take on the burden of saving
the world from demonic evil the least he could do is give her a hand.
Then he went through the whole Redefinition
> through Epiphany arc where he had to reevaluate and rediscover his
> whole philosophy on life (people shouldn't suffer the way they do),
> what his goals are (to help people), and what he expects to get out of
> it for himself (nothing).
Nothing except trust and respect. Notice how cranky he gets when he's
questioned, betrayed, or attacked. His reaction to Connor was really the
first progress I've noticed in that regard. It's one time when he was
attacked, quite unfairly, and betrayed and he didn't retaliate with
vengeance.
> Really not seeing where you get a sadistic or violent streak for Liam,
> or what makes you think that the driving force of his character is
> vengeance.
>
> > But he hadn't known he was a vampire for more than half an hour
> >and he was fully prepared to feast on the gangs corpses, and that's with
a
> >soul.
>
> So you keep insisting even though there is no real evidence that he
> was going to do so. He never once tried to bite anyone. And why in
> the world would he want to eat their corpses anyway, when they've
> always made such a big point out of how it is drinking the warm blood
> of a *living* human that is such a thrill for vampires.
>
What do you mean there's no real evidence? He *said* he was going eat them.
Cordelia wasn't hiding from him for kicks. She believed he was going to eat
her. If that isn't enough evidence for you then you would have only been
convinced by him actually biting someone.
> Now he certainly looked tempted by Cordy's neck and her talk about
> blood to the point that he vamped out reflexively (leading to his
> realization that he was a vampire), but he never followed up on that
> urge to bite anyone nor did we get any indication that he was going to
> do so - only some empty threats.
>
> >No, because how many people wouldn't make exactly the same choice in the
> >same circumstances? Drained of blood, at the point of death, none of
these
> >people are in a clear frame of mind when they decide to accept the offer
to
> >drink.
>
> You have absolutely no prove from anywhere in the series that that is
> what happens.
I do. It may be repeatedly discounted as Dracula's abberration, but it is
evidence from the series never the less. And it is clearly supported by the
storyline, the character's behavior and the Buffyverse mythology. If you're
not convinced, you're not. That's okay by me. I am.
This is not Forever Knight, nor is the series based on
> Anne Rice's books (who's take on vampires was explicitly discredited
> as far as Buffy-verse vamps go by Spike in S2 of Buffy).
>
> Show me one instance where there is anyone that was able to refuse
> being turned into a vampire. Show me one line that supports your
> contention that the soul is still present after the demon takes up
> housekeeping.
Maybe the soul isn't present, but the human certainly is. If the soul is
anything it's guilt. It's not the essence of the person, or the spirit, and
it's effects can be pretty accurately manufactured by a computer chip in the
brain.
> We have always been told by *everyone* on and off the show that in the
> Buffyverse you *die* and *your soul leaves your body* before you are
> turned into a vampire by the demon slipping into the void the soul
> left behind.
>
As far as I can recall Whedon has absolutely refused to define the soul or
it's function in the B-verse. Obviously, the people are dead, I never said
any differently. As for the soul leaving the body, maybe it goes to the big
guilt collector in the sky, but the human being it used to produce guilt for
has been left behind to deal with the demon it let inside of it's body.
> As to your argument that since a demon can't enter a home uninvited so
> he can't enter a person without an 'invitation' (the consent of the
> person about to be turned into a vampire:
>
> There is no need to 'invite' the demon in - since the soul has left
> the building, since the person is *dead* there is no longer a barrier
> to keep the vampire demon out.
The demon can't inhabit the body without an invitation. Therefore, the soul
doesn't leave the building until the door has been opened to let the vampire
in.
> Your personality and your memories stay behind, but your soul, your
> conscience, your drive towards good, your real *you* is gone
Your *real you* is your personality and your memories. If you've ever
visited an Alzheimer's ward you would know that for certain. What is left
is simply a shell. And a soul does not drive humans towards good. There
are plenty of souled humans in the B-verse who are pure and unmitigated
evil. The soul causes guilt, which as Halfrek points out to Anya, is
overcome soon enough. It might make it more uncomfortable to do evil until
it's overcome, but guilt has never driven anyone to be noble or good.
replaced
> by the demon and his impulses to feed with nothing (no conscience) to
> reign them in.
>
> >The demon manipulates humans with their worst fear, death. It
> >then continues to manipulate the human it inhabits by taking advantage of
> >it's human weaknesses. In Spike's case, love, in Angel's case, revenge,
in
> >Harmony's case, greed, in Druscilla's case, insanity. Spike and Angel
feel
> >guilty because they *are* guilty.
>
> It's always so much easier to blame the victim, isn't it? Something
> bad happened to this person? Well, he/she must have had it coming to
> them. She was raped? Oh, she must have been asking for it. She
> could have resisted if she'd really wanted to. - Because rape is the
> closest analogy we have in the real world to being turned into a
> vampire: in both cases someone is stealing your innocence and
> violating your innermost self.
>
Rape is an excellent analogy to being turned into a vamp. ME has used that
metaphor twice using Spike as a would be rapist, once with Willow in the
dorm room, and again with Buffy last season. And, you will note that I have
never blamed the victim. On the contrary I've compared being vamped to
having a loaded gun to your head. Or if you prefer the rape analogy it's
agreeing to be raped and violated instead of dead. Most people would pick
rape over death and few would ever fault them for making that choice.
Purist's are looking for the logic, the justice, the rightness, about this
story. And the kicker is, there isn't any. It would be so easy if it were
as simple as "Vampires are brutal, soulless monsters, evil and
unredeemable, and they must all be destroyed." Unless, they are lucky
enough to get that magic soul thing back and then everything is okey-dokey.
But, that's how this story started out and it has plainly evolved into
something far more complicated than that. We know now that vampires love,
that they are willing to sacrifice themselves for the sake of that love,
that they can seek out redemption in their own right, that they understand
the difference between what is good and what is evil, that they can feel
guilt for hurting someone they care about. Vampire's are every bit as
complex in their personalities, opinions, and behaviors as the humans they
started out as. If the bottom line is that vampires are demonic entities
who have forced themselves onto hapless humans and must all be destroyed why
are we still watching this show? We thought we knew that much at the end of
Season 1.
Shannon
DarkMagic
> >In "Spin the
> >Bottle" Liam was perfectly willing to feast on the gangs corpses after
they
> >attacked him, he stalked Cordelia through the hotel, taunting her "I can
see
> >you....", making fun of her scream for help, and he was about to take a
bite
> >when Connor stepped in.
>
> The only time Liam looked tempted to take a bite out of Cordy was up
> in her room earlier (when he first vamped out) and it shocked him so
> much that he ran away.
>
He ran into the bathroom to make vampy faces. I don't disagree that it
shocked him, nor do I think he was even tempted to go back out and bite her,
then.
> He didn't make fun of Cordy's scream, he commented on her voice (or
> lack of it).
>
You say tomato, I say to-mah-to
> I will give you the taunting about not being able to hide from him in
> the dark - though that could equally be interpreted on him remarking
> on the realization that as a vampire he *can* see in the dark.
>
Shades of Angelus. Simply shades. I never said he was bordering on
Angelus' evil, simply that the seeds of it can be seen.
> >Liam then proceeded to whack the heck out of Connor
>
> He clearly didn't use his full force with Gunn or Wes or they would
> have been dead - or at the very least in a lot worse shape - at the
> end of the episode.
>
Agreed.
> He cut lose with Connor only after he realized that Connor was a lot
> stronger and tougher than the others, making him ask if he was a
> vampire as well.
>
> >and when he got bored with it declared his intention to stop fighting and
go
> >back to having fun with Cordelia.
>
> He never said that that was where he was going nor did he look
> particularly blood-lusty when he walked away from Connor, more tired
> and disgusted (also supported by his 'I didn't ask to be a freak -
> hell, I didn't ask to be born' comment).
>
Yep. I agree with that too. Nothing short of destruction would have
distracted Angelus. Liam was easily convinced into giving up his fun and
games to take the antidote.
> >That's plenty of violence and sadism for
> >me.
>
> And I still don't see it. But hey, if it makes you happy to see Angel
> that way, go ahead and keep seeing that.
>
It just is what it is. Angel has a sadistic streak and a penchant for
turning nasty and violent when he's really irritated. He's punched Xander
in the face, completely unprovoked at the time, he's wacked the crap out of
Merle, he's bolted the doors on evil lawyers from the outside and let them
be devoured, he's laid in wait for Darla and Druscilla and then set them on
fire, he's smothered an injured and helpless Wesley with his own bed
pillow...I could go on. Now, you might argue that Xander had it coming,(and
he did), or that Merle wouldn't talk without a little encouragement,
(probably true), that if Wolfram and Hart doesn't deserve to be eaten no one
does (I've said it myself often enough), that he had a right to be angry at
Wesley and Wesley is lucky to be alive, etc..but that doesn't change the
fact that those are still nasty, violent behaviors with a touch of sadism
behind them.
Shannon
Don Sample
<slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Tammy Stephanie Davis" <t...@millipede.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> wrote in message
> news:N9wA9.782$ho1....@news.itd.umich.edu...
> > I strongly disagree. There are considerable examples of statements
> > made by Buffy, Giles, Angel, etc. that the victim *has no choice*. And
> > you have yet to present one example from the show where its stated
> > that the victim does have a choice. It just not there.
>
> I have given an example. Dracula plainly explains the process to Buffy.
> She has to be drained almost to the point of death, she has to beg to become
> a vampire, and then drink. If the victim has no choice, if the human dies,
> and it's soul departs the body, then currently Spike and Angel bear no
> responsibility what so ever for their previous actions. At no time has ME
> ever stated or indicated even, that was the case. William would have
> returned to his body, horrified perhaps by what the vampire had done in his
> absence, but not guilty about it.
>
> Shannon
The begging part is just how Drac got his jollies. It is not a
requirement. It was presented in _Buffy vs Dracula_ as an anomaly.
Tammy Stephanie Davis
DarkMagic <slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
:
:"Tammy Stephanie Davis" <t...@millipede.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> wrote in message
Dracula was shown to be all into using magic to "put people under
his spell" and making them his slave; the whole episode is basically
Dracula subjecting Giles, Buffy and especially Xander to various
indignities (all very much against their will) before Buffy finally was
able to summon the strength to resist the spells and defeat him. The
whole business of Buffy having to beg to become a vampire was just Dracula
getting off on that magic to make a slayer beg to become a vampire.
:If the victim has no choice, if the human dies,
:and it's soul departs the body, then currently Spike and Angel bear no
:responsibility what so ever for their previous actions. At no time has ME
:ever stated or indicated even, that was the case. William would have
:returned to his body, horrified perhaps by what the vampire had done in his
:absence, but not guilty about it.
Angel & Spike feel guilty not because their souls invited the
demon to take possession of their bodies, but because they
have memories in the first person of hundreds of years of carnage.
Insisting that Angel and Spike's souls are guilty for the carnage
their demons have wrought because their souls feel guilty totally
ignores our well-known propensity for feeling guilt over things that
logic says we need not feel guilty about. It's part of the burden
of having a human soul. Just because someone feels guilty about
something doesn't mean they are guilty. If that was the case,
we would have no need for courts or trials, etc. We'd just
punish everyone who feels guilty about something.
--
H.G.Hettinger
<slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I have given an example. Dracula plainly explains the process to Buffy.
>She has to be drained almost to the point of death, she has to beg to become
>a vampire, and then drink. If the victim has no choice, if the human dies,
>and it's soul departs the body, then currently Spike and Angel bear no
>responsibility what so ever for their previous actions. At no time has ME
>ever stated or indicated even, that was the case. William would have
>returned to his body, horrified perhaps by what the vampire had done in his
>absence, but not guilty about it.
The problem lies with the definition of the soul. In general most
western people consider the soul to be the sum total of 'you' - but in
the Buffyverse that is apparently not the case. They apparently split
a person into three distinct components: The body (self explanatory),
the spirit (your consciousness, your memories and personality) and the
soul (your conscience, your 'deep down drive to do good').
The spirit, which holds a great deal of what makes us 'us' doesn't
depart with the soul the way it usually does when one dies, but stays
behind with the body to fuse with the demon into the new entity called
a vampire.
So when you stuff the soul back in on top of the demon, there is no
break in consciousness or memories from human to vampire, to ensouled
vampire. That continuity is what leads to all the guilt and
confusion. The ensouled vampire remembers all he's done and felt as
him or her having been the one to have done them - not in 'second
point of view' in a first person direct experience - because in a way
it was. The spirit was there the whole time, after all. The soul, on
the other hand, wasn't.
It makes it very hard to settle the whole question of guilt and/or
responsibility not only for the vampire but for us and the people on
the show as well.
Buffy coped with the dilemma by splitting Angel off as a distinctly
different entity that had nothing but the body in common with Angelus
and so completely innocent of any of Angelus deeds.
Xander didn't. He saw Angel as fully responsible for everything he
did as a vampire and because of that he never trusted or liked Angel.
Myself, I've decided to take a road somewhere in the middle between
those two. Yes, Angel is responsible for what he did as Angelus
because the entity that was Angelus (body+spirit+demon) is still a
part of who and what Angel is now, but I see the fact that he didn't
have his soul as a mitigating circumstance in that reduces his
culpability for Angelus actions the same way diminished mental
capacity does in real live - especially since Liam had no idea how
Darla would change him and no way to refuse to be changed.
It's kind of like someone shooting you up with mind-altering drugs
against your will, and you doing horrible things under the influence.
Then you get put in rehab against your will and come out of your
continuous drugged stupor and while you are truly horrified by what
you did while under the influence, your body has become so dependent
on it that you are left with a constant craving that you have to fight
every minute of every day in order to stay on the 'straight and
narrow.'
How far would you hold such a person responsible for the action
committed while drugged against their will?
You will have to decide for yourself if your answer matches Buffy's or
Xander's or if, like myself, you decide on something in between those
two extremes.
H.G.Hettinger
<slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>It just is what it is. Angel has a sadistic streak and a penchant for
>turning nasty and violent when he's really irritated. He's punched Xander
>in the face, completely unprovoked at the time, he's wacked the crap out of
>Merle, he's bolted the doors on evil lawyers from the outside and let them
>be devoured, he's laid in wait for Darla and Druscilla and then set them on
>fire, he's smothered an injured and helpless Wesley with his own bed
>pillow...I could go on. Now, you might argue that Xander had it coming,(and
>he did), or that Merle wouldn't talk without a little encouragement,
>(probably true), that if Wolfram and Hart doesn't deserve to be eaten no one
>does (I've said it myself often enough), that he had a right to be angry at
>Wesley and Wesley is lucky to be alive, etc..but that doesn't change the
>fact that those are still nasty, violent behaviors with a touch of sadism
>behind them.
I agree that Angel has a violent streak, as well as a penchant for
turning nasty when he's really irritated - after all Angelus is still
a part of his make-up. What I was arguing against what that it
originated with Liam, the way you claimed in previous posts.
Imho, it wasn't the loss of his soul that made him so especially nasty
and violent, but the addition of the demon. YMMV.
DarkMagic
that everything he said and did has no relation to how things are done in
the B-verse. We've seen many people vamped via seduction. Spike and
Angel, both, developed long lasting sexual relationships with their sires.
Spike's intention to vamp Willow couldn't have been couched in more
seductive, sexual terms. ME has plainly stated, once, that becoming a
vampire is a choice, but it has been implied in the story telling many
times.
Shannon
DarkMagic
"Tammy Stephanie Davis" <t...@zektor.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> wrote in message
news:NNFA9.802$ho1....@news.itd.umich.edu...
doing bad things. Dracula is a very dramatic and classic example of that
power. No one was acting against their will. Dracula made it difficult to
resist the temptation, but, as Buffy proved, not impossible.
> :If the victim has no choice, if the human dies,
> :and it's soul departs the body, then currently Spike and Angel bear no
> :responsibility what so ever for their previous actions. At no time has
ME
> :ever stated or indicated even, that was the case. William would have
> :returned to his body, horrified perhaps by what the vampire had done in
his
> :absence, but not guilty about it.
>
> Angel & Spike feel guilty not because their souls invited the
> demon to take possession of their bodies, but because they
> have memories in the first person of hundreds of years of carnage.
>
That doesn't make any sense. It's like saying the Pope feels guilty about
the Catholic Inquisition. He's in charge of the organization that started
it all, so he feels responsible for all of the people who were maimed,
tortured, and brutally murdered at the hands of the church hundreds of years
ago even though he didn't have, couldn't have, anything to do with it
personally. The Pope may be, probably is, horrified by the things that
happened, he may be committed to ensuring that nothing like that happens
again, but he doesn't feel personally responsible or guilty for it.
> Insisting that Angel and Spike's souls are guilty for the carnage
> their demons have wrought because their souls feel guilty totally
> ignores our well-known propensity for feeling guilt over things that
> logic says we need not feel guilty about. It's part of the burden
> of having a human soul. Just because someone feels guilty about
> something doesn't mean they are guilty. If that was the case,
> we would have no need for courts or trials, etc. We'd just
> punish everyone who feels guilty about something.
What about the people who are guilty, but don't feel guilty? Plenty of
those going around in the real world and the B-verse. I, personally, have
never felt guilty for something I wasn't responsible for doing. So, I
disagree that humans are prone to guilty feelings for no reason.
Shannon
DarkMagic
"H.G.Hettinger" <hgh...@localnet.com> wrote in message
news:vpv6tuov6o32qj7kf...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 13 Nov 2002 20:54:23 -0500, "DarkMagic"
> <slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >I have given an example. Dracula plainly explains the process to Buffy.
> >She has to be drained almost to the point of death, she has to beg to
become
> >a vampire, and then drink. If the victim has no choice, if the human
dies,
> >and it's soul departs the body, then currently Spike and Angel bear no
> >responsibility what so ever for their previous actions. At no time has
ME
> >ever stated or indicated even, that was the case. William would have
> >returned to his body, horrified perhaps by what the vampire had done in
his
> >absence, but not guilty about it.
>
> The problem lies with the definition of the soul. In general most
> western people consider the soul to be the sum total of 'you' - but in
> the Buffyverse that is apparently not the case. They apparently split
> a person into three distinct components: The body (self explanatory),
> the spirit (your consciousness, your memories and personality) and the
> soul (your conscience, your 'deep down drive to do good').
>
human have a deep down drive to do good? Are you going to tell me that
underneath it all Holland Manners is really a good and decent person with a
drive to do the right thing? He's not, and no amount of soul in the
universe would ever make him that way. Spike clearly had a desire to do
good. Not necessarily for the right reasons and he usually failed
spectacularly in his attempts, but he was motivated to try without having a
soul. His motivation was the need to be loved and accepted, which is the
only reason that anyone is ever motivated to do the right thing. The soul
is a guilt inducer, period.
> The spirit, which holds a great deal of what makes us 'us' doesn't
> depart with the soul the way it usually does when one dies, but stays
> behind with the body to fuse with the demon into the new entity called
> a vampire.
>
> So when you stuff the soul back in on top of the demon, there is no
> break in consciousness or memories from human to vampire, to ensouled
> vampire. That continuity is what leads to all the guilt and
> confusion. The ensouled vampire remembers all he's done and felt as
> him or her having been the one to have done them - not in 'second
> point of view' in a first person direct experience - because in a way
> it was. The spirit was there the whole time, after all. The soul, on
> the other hand, wasn't.
That's possible, but it still means that William and Liam *are* Spike and
Angel and they are responsible for everything that Spike and Angel have
done. They were there the whole time it was happening. Now they feel bad
about it, but it doesn't mean they are any less responsible.
>
> It makes it very hard to settle the whole question of guilt and/or
> responsibility not only for the vampire but for us and the people on
> the show as well.
>
> Buffy coped with the dilemma by splitting Angel off as a distinctly
> different entity that had nothing but the body in common with Angelus
> and so completely innocent of any of Angelus deeds.
>
She didn't. Buffy held Angel totally and completely responsible for
everything that Angelus did.
Buffy: "I know everything you ever did, because you did it to me."
And
Buffy: "If you destroy yourself now the only thing you ever were was a
monster."
> Xander didn't. He saw Angel as fully responsible for everything he
> did as a vampire and because of that he never trusted or liked Angel.
>
The difference is love and forgiveness. Notice that Xander still likes,
trusts, and believes in Anya. Because he loves her and he has forgiven her.
> Myself, I've decided to take a road somewhere in the middle between
> those two. Yes, Angel is responsible for what he did as Angelus
> because the entity that was Angelus (body+spirit+demon) is still a
> part of who and what Angel is now, but I see the fact that he didn't
> have his soul as a mitigating circumstance in that reduces his
> culpability for Angelus actions the same way diminished mental
> capacity does in real live - especially since Liam had no idea how
> Darla would change him and no way to refuse to be changed.
>
Yes, there are mitigating circumstances. Willow's addiction to power and
her grief over Tara was a mitigating circumstance. Anya's feelings of
separation, loneliness, and sadness, are mitigating circumstances, Buffy's
depression is a mitigating circumstance. Still, those character's have
accepted responsibility for their actions.
> It's kind of like someone shooting you up with mind-altering drugs
> against your will, and you doing horrible things under the influence.
>
> Then you get put in rehab against your will and come out of your
> continuous drugged stupor and while you are truly horrified by what
> you did while under the influence, your body has become so dependent
> on it that you are left with a constant craving that you have to fight
> every minute of every day in order to stay on the 'straight and
> narrow.'
>
> How far would you hold such a person responsible for the action
> committed while drugged against their will?
>
Most likely, that person would have been labeled as "temporarily insane" and
let off the hook. However, if that person was unable, or unwilling, to stay
away from the drugs and the behavior continued they would have to be held
accountable for their actions, eventually. In other words, mitigating
circumstances only mitigate you so far.
Shannon
DarkMagic
weaknesses. And all humans have a weakness. Liam's weakness is a tendency
to hold a grudge and get nasty when he's irritated. The vampire demon turns
that weakness into full blown Angelus.
Shannon
Growltiger
<IimdnX-Q26t...@comcast.com>...
William and Angel are entitled to their remorse. Now I am not going to
disagree with your description of the metaphysics, but your last
sentence intrigues me enough to raise an exception. Although the souls
may have been absent during their vampiric killing sprees, the awareness
of those pernicious acts remains after the soul is restored. That is
the source of guilt.
--
Be seeing you,
Growltiger
Growltiger
I would not call it sadism unless you can prove he enjoyed it. Is Angel
violent? That I cannot dispute. But consider these points: Punching
Xander was expedient to building his cover story with Spike of Angelus
returned. Sending the lawyers to their doom hung over his psyche for a
long while after he did it. Unless you are going to argue for evil
demon rights, I cannot find much fault with his getting rough with low-
life Merle or, for that matter, setting fire to sadistic vampires.
Shanna
"H.G.Hettinger" <hgh...@localnet.com> wrote:
I think the nastiness of Angelus may be a deadly combination of Liam and the
demon.
The demon brings the sadism and the willingness and enjoyment in killing and
torturing.
Liam was a pleasure-seeker. He would have fit well in the "if it feels good,
do it" crowd. But he also had some insecurities and the sense of having
something to prove. Plus, it would appear that he has some degree of
artistic talent and an appreciation for beauty.
So the result is a vampire that seeks pleasure and finds it in the artistic
expression of sadism, all while feeling the need to prove that he's really
something special. In other words, a vampire overachiever.
I shudder to think what you'd get if you vamped Wes. As a human, he's
already quite ruthless when he needs to be. He's exceptionally intelligent,
shrewd and calculating. And, boy, does he have a need to prove himself. He'd
be potentially more dangerous than Angelus because he wouldn't bother
wasting time with artistry or pleasure when killing. He'd just kill, get it
over with and move on to the next target. He'd be the sort to bring down
governments rather than wasting time raiding convents.
Oh, and back to the argument of whether or not the soul is really there all
along and it's just a matter of which is in charge, I do believe we have
onscreen proof that this isn't the case. Didn't they say that the Orb of
Whatever (the one they needed to do the curse) was a vessel to hold the soul
when it was taken out of the ether before it could be put into the vampire?
If the soul is still inside and just needs to be reawakened, or whatever,
then they wouldn't need a vessel to hold the soul as part of the curse.
And I'm not just saying that because my personal pet theory for how we'll
next see Angelus is that he won't outright lose his soul, just that his soul
will lose control of the demon. That means it will be harder to fight him
because staking Angel when his soul is still there would be more difficult
for his friends, and it means they don't already know how to go about
restoring him.
Shanna
Dale Friesen
> She would have had to have been
> taken back to the very beginning of her sophomore year
That's what it sounded like to me, based on the fact that she thought
that she was being subjected to some sort of sophomore initiation prank.
--
Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of Bolen Books.
Dale Friesen, Sysadmin
Bolen Books, Inc Victoria, BC Canada
ro...@bolen.bc.ca http://www.bolen.bc.ca
Don Sample
<slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
The Pope didn't take part in the inquisition. He wasn't even alive at
the time. He doesn't remember torturing people.
> > Insisting that Angel and Spike's souls are guilty for the carnage
> > their demons have wrought because their souls feel guilty totally
> > ignores our well-known propensity for feeling guilt over things that
> > logic says we need not feel guilty about. It's part of the burden
> > of having a human soul. Just because someone feels guilty about
> > something doesn't mean they are guilty. If that was the case,
> > we would have no need for courts or trials, etc. We'd just
> > punish everyone who feels guilty about something.
>
> What about the people who are guilty, but don't feel guilty? Plenty of
> those going around in the real world and the B-verse. I, personally, have
> never felt guilty for something I wasn't responsible for doing. So, I
> disagree that humans are prone to guilty feelings for no reason.
>
> Shannon
Let's say someone slips you a mickey laced with PCP, and a bunch of
other stuff. You go nuts, and kill off your entire family, a bunch of
your friends and a whole lot of strangers. How will you feel when you
come down? Will you be all "la-de-da! It wasn't my fault. I'll just
go back to my life as if nothing happened." or would you be consumed by
guilt, and spend the rest of your life talking to therapists?
David Cheatham
> In article <_tucnfN09I0...@comcast.com>, DarkMagic
> <slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>Spike, upon realizing that he's a vamp thinks he's some sort of
>>super-hero, noble vampire fighting for the forces of good. He doesn't
>>try to eat or hurt anyone and he doesn't have a soul. You can fanwank
>>that any way you want and I'm sure you and many others will, but those
>>are the facts.
>
> A fanwank isn't any explanation. A fanwank is an explanation that
> wasn't intended by the creators. This is usually because they intended
> something else, or because they just didn't think about it at all.
>
> Spike didn't try to eat or hurt anyone because he isn't going to eat
> Buffy regardless, and he isn't going to eat someone else unless he's
> hungry.
And, more to the point in TR, he's not going to eat anyone if he doesn't
know he's a frickin vampire. 'Gee, I'm hungry, let me kill someone to
eat...'
David Cheatham
> DarkMagic <slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> She would have had to have been
>> taken back to the very beginning of her sophomore year
>
> That's what it sounded like to me, based on the fact that she thought
> that she was being subjected to some sort of sophomore initiation prank.
Yeah, she was either a sophomore or a freshman. A sophmore hazing prank
is either a prank played on new sophomores by upperclassmen, or a prank
played by sophomores on new freshmen. The only logical way to be a victim
of a sophmore hazing prank is to be a sophomore or freshman. Just because
Fred was 17 does not make Cordy 17.
As an aside, I love the concept of a 'backup, reformat, and restore'
memory restoration spell. I wonder if the gang had to relive their
memories as they came in? Of course, how would they know? I guess they
need to check..do they remember, sometimes when they were teenagers,
running confused around a hotel? ;) That would be a pretty funny result.
After all, what's wrong with people with amnesia, they have the memories,
but they aren't accessable. So to make them accessable, you use magic to
retrieve their entire set of memories, then replay them so they have the
links to them. Clever.
And of course it didn't work on Lorne because he doesn't have a human
brain. The guy giving him the spell really should have mentioned it.
Tammy Stephanie Davis
DarkMagic <slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
:
:"Tammy Stephanie Davis" <t...@zektor.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> wrote in message
From "Buffy vs. Dracula"
XANDER: (back to talking normally) Where is he?? Where's the creep that
turned me into his spider-eating man-bitch?
BUFFY: He's gone.
XANDER: Dammit! You know what? I'm sick of this crap. I'm sick of
being the guy who eats insects and gets the funny syphilis. As of this
moment, it's over. I'm finished being everybody's butt-monkey!
Sounds a hell of a lot like Xander was acting against his will to me.
And I strongly suspect most other people.
:> :If the victim has no choice, if the human dies,
:> :and it's soul departs the body, then currently Spike and Angel bear no
:> :responsibility what so ever for their previous actions. At no time has
:ME
:> :ever stated or indicated even, that was the case. William would have
:> :returned to his body, horrified perhaps by what the vampire had done in
:his
:> :absence, but not guilty about it.
:>
:> Angel & Spike feel guilty not because their souls invited the
:> demon to take possession of their bodies, but because they
:> have memories in the first person of hundreds of years of carnage.
:>
:That doesn't make any sense. It's like saying the Pope feels guilty about
:the Catholic Inquisition. He's in charge of the organization that started
:it all, so he feels responsible for all of the people who were maimed,
:tortured, and brutally murdered at the hands of the church hundreds of years
:ago even though he didn't have, couldn't have, anything to do with it
:personally. The Pope may be, probably is, horrified by the things that
:happened, he may be committed to ensuring that nothing like that happens
:again, but he doesn't feel personally responsible or guilty for it.
Bad analogy. The Pope does not have memories in the first person
of brutally killing thousands of people during the Catholic Inquisition
and enjoying the experience. So of course, he would not feel personally
responsible or guilty for it.
:> Insisting that Angel and Spike's souls are guilty for the carnage
:> their demons have wrought because their souls feel guilty totally
:> ignores our well-known propensity for feeling guilt over things that
:> logic says we need not feel guilty about. It's part of the burden
:> of having a human soul. Just because someone feels guilty about
:> something doesn't mean they are guilty. If that was the case,
:> we would have no need for courts or trials, etc. We'd just
:> punish everyone who feels guilty about something.
:
:What about the people who are guilty, but don't feel guilty? Plenty of
:those going around in the real world and the B-verse. I, personally, have
:never felt guilty for something I wasn't responsible for doing.
Your responses in this discussion have made that very clear.
:So, I disagree that humans are prone to guilty feelings for no reason.
Then we have to agree to disagree.
--
DarkMagic
visit the ether for a hundred years or so, he doesn't remember torturing
people, either. Coming back into the vampires body would, at worst, be like
watching the "Schindler's List" of the vampire world. It would be
horrifying, but not guilt producing.
>
> Let's say someone slips you a mickey laced with PCP, and a bunch of
> other stuff. You go nuts, and kill off your entire family, a bunch of
> your friends and a whole lot of strangers. How will you feel when you
> come down? Will you be all "la-de-da! It wasn't my fault. I'll just
> go back to my life as if nothing happened." or would you be consumed by
> guilt, and spend the rest of your life talking to therapists?
>
I live trap the mice in my kitchen and let them go in a field. I can't even
imagine killing my friends and family. Still, Buffy felt bad for the way
she treated Dawn and the gang when she was drugged and hallucinating. So,
I'm guessing she holds herself responsible for those actions. But, it isn't
really an accurate comparison because even though Buffy was influenced by
drugs, it *was* still her that did it and she *does* remember it. If
William and Liam were bouncing around the ether while the vampire demon went
to town in their bodies they would*not* be in any way responsible, nor would
they remember doing anything wrong. A better comparison would be a body
switch where your soul/essence, whatever, is transplanted into the body of a
serial killer. You would be horrifed and sickened by the things you saw in
that mind, but you would still know that you didn't do it and you aren't
responsible.
Shannon
DarkMagic
themselves. Finally, Dawn say's "So, when does this become Willow's
responsibility?" In "Him", Anya and the gang shrug their shoulders and say
"Oh, it's not our faults, we were under a spell. We can't be held
accountable." Again, Dawn doesn't seem to agree. The point is that they
are responsible for their actions, spell, or no spell, mitigating
circumstances, or no mitigating circumstances, for everything that they do.
Xander's whole speech is about him refusing to give in to those sorts of
spells anymore, he's not going to let evil use him again.
> :>
> :> Angel & Spike feel guilty not because their souls invited the
> :> demon to take possession of their bodies, but because they
> :> have memories in the first person of hundreds of years of carnage.
> :>
> :That doesn't make any sense. It's like saying the Pope feels guilty
about
> :the Catholic Inquisition. He's in charge of the organization that
started
> :it all, so he feels responsible for all of the people who were maimed,
> :tortured, and brutally murdered at the hands of the church hundreds of
years
> :ago even though he didn't have, couldn't have, anything to do with it
> :personally. The Pope may be, probably is, horrified by the things that
> :happened, he may be committed to ensuring that nothing like that happens
> :again, but he doesn't feel personally responsible or guilty for it.
>
> Bad analogy. The Pope does not have memories in the first person
> of brutally killing thousands of people during the Catholic Inquisition
> and enjoying the experience. So of course, he would not feel personally
> responsible or guilty for it.
And according to purist's soul logic neither do William or Liam. They
weren't in the demon's body, they were in the ether. If they weren't there,
and they didn't know what was happening, then they can't remember it and
they can't feel guilty about it. It can't be both ways. Either they
weren't there, so they aren't guilty, or they were there and they are
guilty. Guilt doesn't occur when you remember something bad that someone
else has done.
>
> :What about the people who are guilty, but don't feel guilty? Plenty of
> :those going around in the real world and the B-verse. I, personally,
have
> :never felt guilty for something I wasn't responsible for doing.
>
> Your responses in this discussion have made that very clear.
Good, I like to be clear. But, more to the point, why would anyone feel
guilty for something they didn't do? If you were magically transplanted
into the body of a serial killer would you hold yourself accountable for all
the things he did? When Buffy was Fuffy did she just shrug her shoulders
and say "Well, I'm in Faith's body, now, boy I sure feel guilty for
everything Faith did. I better go with the Watcher's and let them imprison
or kill me." Did Buffy come back from heaven and feel guilty about all the
people she didn't save while she was dead? Would that make any sense at
all?
>
Shannon
DarkMagic
"Growltiger" <ty...@never.invalid> wrote in message
news:MPG.183d7fc17...@netnews.attbi.com...
Guilt doesn't happen because someone is aware of an evil act that somebody
else perpetrated. You can't have it both ways. Either, the essences of
William and Liam were absent and therefore in no way responsible for the
vampires acts, or the essences' were there all the time and are responsible
for the vampires acts. If the human's essences were there the whole time
the soul isn't the source of guilt, it *is* guilt.
Shannon
DarkMagic
"Shanna" <shann...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:B9F945B3.11A38%shann...@earthlink.net...
perfect accord with Angel's tendency to get nasty when irritated and to dish
out vengeance if he believes it's deserved.
> So the result is a vampire that seeks pleasure and finds it in the
artistic
> expression of sadism, all while feeling the need to prove that he's really
> something special. In other words, a vampire overachiever.
>
> I shudder to think what you'd get if you vamped Wes. As a human, he's
> already quite ruthless when he needs to be. He's exceptionally
intelligent,
> shrewd and calculating. And, boy, does he have a need to prove himself.
He'd
> be potentially more dangerous than Angelus because he wouldn't bother
> wasting time with artistry or pleasure when killing. He'd just kill, get
it
> over with and move on to the next target. He'd be the sort to bring down
> governments rather than wasting time raiding convents.
I hope we never find out.
>
> Oh, and back to the argument of whether or not the soul is really there
all
> along and it's just a matter of which is in charge, I do believe we have
> onscreen proof that this isn't the case. Didn't they say that the Orb of
> Whatever (the one they needed to do the curse) was a vessel to hold the
soul
> when it was taken out of the ether before it could be put into the
vampire?
> If the soul is still inside and just needs to be reawakened, or whatever,
> then they wouldn't need a vessel to hold the soul as part of the curse.
Apparently, they don't need the vessel to hold the soul. There was no Orb
of Thessela laying around Lurky's cave before he souled Spike. I don't know
what the Orb does, exactly, but it never made sense to me that it was
holding the soul. Willow was no where near Angel when his soul was
restored. (I don't believe the gypsy lady was, either, when it was restored
originally) If a soul can jump from the middle of the hospital bed to the
abandoned mansion across town, all on it's own, the soul doesn't need to be
contained in anything. If Willow had to smash the Orb at Angel's feet, or
something approximate, that would make more sense. Not a lot, but more. In
any case, my belief is that the "Restoration Spell" restores the human soul
to control over the body it inhabits. Until then, it lies repressed by the
demonic soul of the vampire demon.
>
> And I'm not just saying that because my personal pet theory for how we'll
> next see Angelus is that he won't outright lose his soul, just that his
soul
> will lose control of the demon. That means it will be harder to fight him
> because staking Angel when his soul is still there would be more difficult
> for his friends, and it means they don't already know how to go about
> restoring him.
>
Interesting, and it may be likely to play out this way. It would prove, I
believe, that the soul is not the crucial issue in controlling the demon.
Also, it would make it more difficult, I think, for the gang to forgive
Angel for the things he says and does as Angelus. Sort of like the ep. in
the first season where Angel is given the drug Ecstasy and loses control.
Shannon
>
DarkMagic
"Growltiger" <ty...@never.invalid> wrote in message
> > >
> > It just is what it is. Angel has a sadistic streak and a penchant for
> > turning nasty and violent when he's really irritated. He's punched
Xander
> > in the face, completely unprovoked at the time, he's wacked the crap out
of
> > Merle, he's bolted the doors on evil lawyers from the outside and let
them
> > be devoured, he's laid in wait for Darla and Druscilla and then set them
on
> > fire, he's smothered an injured and helpless Wesley with his own bed
> > pillow...I could go on. Now, you might argue that Xander had it
coming,(and
> > he did), or that Merle wouldn't talk without a little encouragement,
> > (probably true), that if Wolfram and Hart doesn't deserve to be eaten no
one
> > does (I've said it myself often enough), that he had a right to be angry
at
> > Wesley and Wesley is lucky to be alive, etc..but that doesn't change the
> > fact that those are still nasty, violent behaviors with a touch of
sadism
> > behind them.
> >
> I would not call it sadism unless you can prove he enjoyed it. Is Angel
> violent? That I cannot dispute. But consider these points: Punching
> Xander was expedient to building his cover story with Spike of Angelus
> returned.
Plus, it felt really good because Xander irritates him.
Sending the lawyers to their doom hung over his psyche for a
> long while after he did it.
I didn't notice that so much. He seemed to feel really bad about firing the
gang and not being part of the group anymore. Not so bad about the evil
lawyers. And he definitely has a look of grim satisfaction on his face
when he closes those doors.
Unless you are going to argue for evil
> demon rights, I cannot find much fault with his getting rough with low-
> life Merle
The point of the Initiative, or part of it, was to show that treating
demons, any demons, inhumanely dehumanizes the human as much as it does the
demon. Recall Oz, shivering naked in a cell, while he listens to the
screams of demons being tortured, dissected and killed all around him. And
Riley's horror, when he realizes that his co-workers think it's perfectly
alright to treat Oz the way they do because he's part demon. Then, there
was the whole issue of Gunn and his gang at logger heads over the
destruction of demons simply because they are demons. ME has made it very
clear that not all demons are evil. Merle was such a demon. Pathetic, not
exactly a good guy, but not into the mass murder of humans or world
destroying evil.
or, for that matter, setting fire to sadistic vampires.
Stake 'em. Doing away with evil is one thing, torturing it say's something
else altogether.
Shannon
Tammy Stephanie Davis
DarkMagic <slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
:
:"Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
Wrong. It would be both horrifying and guilt producing because the
memories, *are in the first person*. As has been mentioned repeatedly by
both parties and other characters, Angel and Spike see and *feel*
themselves committing all those murders because their souls are now part
of the demons memories.
:> Let's say someone slips you a mickey laced with PCP, and a bunch of
:> other stuff. You go nuts, and kill off your entire family, a bunch of
:> your friends and a whole lot of strangers. How will you feel when you
:> come down? Will you be all "la-de-da! It wasn't my fault. I'll just
:> go back to my life as if nothing happened." or would you be consumed by
:> guilt, and spend the rest of your life talking to therapists?
:>
:I live trap the mice in my kitchen and let them go in a field. I can't even
:imagine killing my friends and family. Still, Buffy felt bad for the way
:she treated Dawn and the gang when she was drugged and hallucinating. So,
:I'm guessing she holds herself responsible for those actions. But, it isn't
:really an accurate comparison because even though Buffy was influenced by
:drugs, it *was* still her that did it and she *does* remember it. If
:William and Liam were bouncing around the ether while the vampire demon went
:to town in their bodies they would*not* be in any way responsible, nor would
:they remember doing anything wrong. A better comparison would be a body
:switch where your soul/essence, whatever, is transplanted into the body of a
:serial killer. You would be horrifed and sickened by the things you saw in
:that mind, but you would still know that you didn't do it and you aren't
:responsible.
Your analogies are off-base because they don't include the first-person
perspective coupled with the feeling of enjoyment that both Angel and
Spike's soul feel from those memories of those killings.
--
DarkMagic
is sucked out of the ether and thrust into the body of serial killer. It
then becomes an actual indistinguishable part of the serial killer, they are
seamless, the human and the demon aspects of this entity. The human soul is
forced into accountability for actions it had no part of and knew nothing
about. Why is it then that ME so continually defines and points out the
contrast between the demon and the human aspects of it's characters?
Especially, vampires. Are souled vampires the only characters on the entire
show forced to accept responsibilty for things they didn't do? Why aren't
the other characters telling Angel and Spike not to feel guilty because they
aren't really guilty they just think they are? While, at the same time,
Willow, Buffy, Anya, Faith etc...are forced to 'fess up and atone for their
bad behavior? In your scenario the soul is a get out of jail free card.
And if that's true then Angel and Spike are the only characters on the show
who bear no responsibility for making bad choices.
No, they aren't. If William and Liam aren't present in the vampire at all
times the above is exactly what they experience after being reensouled. You
can't experience a first person perspective if you aren't present in the
first person. But, my biggest problem with this theory is that Spike and
Angel are innocent once they are souled, even if they don't feel that way.
Which, as Rose and others have pointed out many times, makes everyone else
on the show utter scum bags for not treating them like the complete
innocents they really are. It would be like Buffy brought back from Heaven
and accidentally ending up in the body of a biker demon roaming around her
grave. She would feel guilty because she remembers what the biker demon
remembers and she would feel the pleasure doing those things gave the biker
demon. Even though she also remembers being in heaven and knows that she
didn't really do those things, she still feels guilty and responsible. And
the gang holds Buffy accountable for everything the biker demon did, even
though they know she was in heaven and that being in a biker demon isn't
something she ever wanted. It's still her fault just for being there. It's
the stupidest set-up anyone could imagine. Character's feeling guilty for
things they didn't do, and other characters holding them accountable for
actions they never committed. While at the same time everyone thinks and
believes just the opposite.
Shannon
> --
DarkMagic
"David Cheatham" <da...@creeknet.com> wrote in message
news:lq0eax...@mnemosyne.fake.dom...
Why not? Why when Spike and Angel lose their memories is it the vampire
part that they forget? Why isn't it the human part instead? If it's true
that a vampire is nothing more than an evil monstrous demon with a humans
memories then when the memories are gone the demon could come to the fore
just as easily, should, in fact, come to the fore more easily, particularly
in Spike's case. With no memory of the people he's with, no knowledge of
his love for Buffy, no memory of the chip in his head, why isn't it pure
demon that comes out when Spike forgets who he is? Pure evil, pure blood
lust? Why? IMO, because it's the human who allows the demon to control it.
The humanity in Spike and Angel is more powerful and more prevalent than the
demon is. Without the knowledge that they have been vamped, that they share
their body with the a demon entity, they are simply human.
Shannon
Randy Money
> "Randy Money" <rbm...@library.syr.edu> wrote in message
> news:9954fbb1.02111...@posting.google.com...
> > "DarkMagic" <slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:<4_idnRPAvIf...@comcast.com>...
> >
[...]
> > [H]e didn't sound that much like
> > Angelus there. He sounded a lot more like a 17-year-old who just
> > realized he had the keys to daddy's '69 Mustang. He just realized that
> > as a vampire he had all the strength and speed he needed to get his
> > way with the pretty lady. Eating might have happened, but I bet other
> > things would have happened first, like some kissing ...
>
> Cordelia wasn't shrieking bloody murder because Liam was going to kiss her.
No, she wasn't. That doesn't mean she knew what he was going to do,
but that she assumed the vampire was about to bite because he's a
vampire, which is ordinarily a wise assumption. She didn't know he had
a soul. Neither did he, so what he would have done if things lasted
longer is anyone's guess.
> She believed he was going to eat her and so do I.
But that's an opinion not entirely supported by what happened.
> > But I wasn't positive anything really bad would happen. He seemed much
> > more inclined to hear himself talk, and he let Cordy scream without
> > stopping her even though it was obviously hurting his ears.
> >
> > Let's say that I found that portion of the festivities a bit
> > ambiguous.
> >
> Vampire Liam wasn't as sadistic or evil as Angelus. I'm not saying he was.
> I'm saying he was on his way to getting there and that's *with* a soul.
>
> Shannon
Again, the scene was ambiguous at best. Liam was reveling in his
new-found power, but appeared much more inclined to talk to the pretty
girl -- which is consistent with what we've seen of young Liam in the
past -- than actually get to the bitting. He could easily have shut
Cordy up with a back hand, but didn't, apparently glad to give her
some slack because she's pretty and, again, he seemed to want to talk,
he was certainly doing enough of it. I actually like that Boreanaz
played him like a big puppy just realizing how fast and strong it is.
Which is not to say Liam wouldn't bite, just that he wasn't showing
strong signs of it. When he was fighting Connor, especially toward the
end, it seemed to me he would be even more inclined to bite to get rid
of the danger, yet he didn't show signs of it then, either, and
instead started to walk away when it was clear he'd won. Frankly,
there was a stronger implication that he was hurt that no one wanted
him and no one wanted to talk to him than that he was prepared to
really bite someone.
Randy M.
Tammy Stephanie Davis
DarkMagic <slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
:
:"Tammy Stephanie Davis" <t...@millipede.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> wrote in message
Yep.
:It
:then becomes an actual indistinguishable part of the serial killer, they are
:seamless, the human and the demon aspects of this entity.
Nope.
The soul share first-person memories and enjoyment therein of the demon's
carnage. This sharing/merging of memories does not mean that the
soul and demon are seamless or indistinguishable. Otherwise there would
be no difference between Angel and Angelus.
:The human soul is
:forced into accountability for actions it had no part of and knew nothing
:about.
The human soul is forced to experience first-hand the memories of
the demon - memories it had no part of and knew nothing about because it
wasn't there. What acountability, if any, there is for the soul is
pretty much what we're debating here, isn't it? You insist that the
soul feels guilty because it is in part guilty for the carnage committed
by the demon and I strongly disagree.
:Why is it then that ME so continually defines and points out the
:contrast between the demon and the human aspects of it's characters?
:Especially, vampires.
Well you wouldn't be able to have a show about humans, vampires
and demons unless you define and contrast between them. Otherwise
whats the point?
:Are souled vampires the only characters on the entire
:show forced to accept responsibilty for things they didn't do?
They seem to be the only beings whose soul is forced to experience
the memories of the demon. I can't think of other beings on the
show with this type of setup.
:Why aren't
:the other characters telling Angel and Spike not to feel guilty because they
:aren't really guilty they just think they are? While, at the same time,
:Willow, Buffy, Anya, Faith etc...are forced to 'fess up and atone for their
:bad behavior?
Well Buffy pretty much did this when she made love to Angel and he
experienced the perfect moment of happiness and all that guilt
lifted from his soul. And we know how well that turned out. ;)
Also Cordelia pretty much told Angel the same thing at the end of
Somnambulist:
Angel: "It's still in me, Cordelia."
Cordy: "Sure it's in you. We all have *something*. But it's not
the only thing that's in you. You're not him, Angel. Not
anymore. The name I got in my vision, the message didn't come
for Angelus, it came for you. Angel. And you have to trust that
whoever that The Powers That Be be, - are, - is.. anyway, -
they know the difference."
Besides you can't force someone to atone for their behavior. Anya,
Buffy, Faith, Angel, whoever all did so or try do to so because they
had a need to do so.
:In your scenario the soul is a get out of jail free card.
How? The soul is tormented with guilt because of memories from the demon.
Angel suffered with self-loathing and despair for over a century; Spike is
insane and constantly self-multilates himelf to try and cut out the soul.
How are they getting out of jail free?
:And if that's true then Angel and Spike are the only characters on the show
:who bear no responsibility for making bad choices.
Which brings us back to your insistence that the human chooses to
"invite" the demon in when they are being vamped, which just isn't
true as the characters of Buffy and Angel have said on numerous
occasions.
: > :> Let's say someone slips you a mickey laced with PCP, and a bunch of
Well the show says you can if your soul is forced to share those memories
with the demon.
:But, my biggest problem with this theory is that Spike and
:Angel are innocent once they are souled, even if they don't feel that way.
:Which, as Rose and others have pointed out many times, makes everyone else
:on the show utter scum bags for not treating them like the complete
:innocents they really are. It would be like Buffy brought back from Heaven
:and accidentally ending up in the body of a biker demon roaming around her
:grave. She would feel guilty because she remembers what the biker demon
:remembers and she would feel the pleasure doing those things gave the biker
:demon. Even though she also remembers being in heaven and knows that she
:didn't really do those things, she still feels guilty and responsible. And
:the gang holds Buffy accountable for everything the biker demon did, even
:though they know she was in heaven and that being in a biker demon isn't
:something she ever wanted. It's still her fault just for being there. It's
:the stupidest set-up anyone could imagine. Character's feeling guilty for
:things they didn't do, and other characters holding them accountable for
:actions they never committed. While at the same time everyone thinks and
:believes just the opposite.
I don't know where this crappy treatment is that you keep alluding to.
Buffy, Willow, Giles, even Xander treated Angel pretty well all things
considered, i.e. him being a secretive, vampire lurking in the shadows,
etc. If I remember correctly, no one knew he was a vampire til
mid-way through the first season. And even then Angel wasn't exactly
into being social with anyone except Buffy. I don't see it.
--
H.G.Hettinger
<slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>"H.G.Hettinger" <hgh...@localnet.com> wrote in message
>news:vpv6tuov6o32qj7kf...@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 13 Nov 2002 20:54:23 -0500, "DarkMagic"
>> <slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
(snip)
>>
>> The problem lies with the definition of the soul. In general most
>> western people consider the soul to be the sum total of 'you' - but in
>> the Buffyverse that is apparently not the case. They apparently split
>> a person into three distinct components: The body (self explanatory),
>> the spirit (your consciousness, your memories and personality) and the
>> soul (your conscience, your 'deep down drive to do good').
>>
>I disagree. If the soul is a deep down drive to do good why doesn't every
>human have a deep down drive to do good?
That is exactly the way it has been stated outright on the show
several times. To give you just one direct quote from "5x5"
Wesley sits up: "Well, I have faith in Angel. If anyone can convince
him to testify..."
Cordy: "Wesley, you don't change a guy like that. In fact -
generally speaking - you don't change a guy. What you see is what you
get. Scratch the surface and what do you find? More surface."
Wesley puts on his glasses and gets up: "One could have said that
about Angel."
Cordy: "Oh, please! He was cursed by gypsies. What's Angel gonna
do? Drag a bunch of them in here to shove a soul down this guy's
throat?"
Wesley: "He may be a ruffian, but he's already got a soul, and
therefore - deep down inside - an urge to do what's right."
> Are you going to tell me that
>underneath it all Holland Manners is really a good and decent person with a
>drive to do the right thing?
Unless he sold his soul the way the Mayor did, yes. Which is one of
the reasons why Angel abandoning those lawyers to Darla and Dru was so
problematic.
>He's not, and no amount of soul in the
>universe would ever make him that way. Spike clearly had a desire to do
>good. Not necessarily for the right reasons and he usually failed
>spectacularly in his attempts, but he was motivated to try without having a
>soul. His motivation was the need to be loved and accepted, which is the
>only reason that anyone is ever motivated to do the right thing. The soul
>is a guilt inducer, period.
That's a pretty cold and cynic way to see your fellow humans, but imho
it's clear that that *isn't* how it works in the Buffy-verse.
In the Buffy-verse magic works, vampires and demons exist, and each
human with a soul has a deep down urge to do the right thing.
So, how can humans then be so evil? Lilah: "It's called free will.
Look it up."
>
>> The spirit, which holds a great deal of what makes us 'us' doesn't
>> depart with the soul the way it usually does when one dies, but stays
>> behind with the body to fuse with the demon into the new entity called
>> a vampire.
>>
>> So when you stuff the soul back in on top of the demon, there is no
>> break in consciousness or memories from human to vampire, to ensouled
>> vampire. That continuity is what leads to all the guilt and
>> confusion. The ensouled vampire remembers all he's done and felt as
>> him or her having been the one to have done them - not in 'second
>> point of view' in a first person direct experience - because in a way
>> it was. The spirit was there the whole time, after all. The soul, on
>> the other hand, wasn't.
>
>That's possible, but it still means that William and Liam *are* Spike and
>Angel and they are responsible for everything that Spike and Angel have
>done. They were there the whole time it was happening. Now they feel bad
>about it, but it doesn't mean they are any less responsible.
So, you are choosing to side with Xander on this. Well, enough. Like
I said everyone has to make their own choice on this.
>>
>> It makes it very hard to settle the whole question of guilt and/or
>> responsibility not only for the vampire but for us and the people on
>> the show as well.
>>
>> Buffy coped with the dilemma by splitting Angel off as a distinctly
>> different entity that had nothing but the body in common with Angelus
>> and so completely innocent of any of Angelus deeds.
>>
>She didn't. Buffy held Angel totally and completely responsible for
>everything that Angelus did.
>
>Buffy: "I know everything you ever did, because you did it to me."
I should have qualified that Buffy made a complete distinction between
Angel and Angelus in the until Angel lost his soul. After that she
still tried to, and usually succeeded, but it was never quite as easy
any more.
>
>And
>
>Buffy: "If you destroy yourself now the only thing you ever were was a
>monster."
A blatant lie, thrown into Angel's face as a last ditch effort to
shock him out of his planned suicide. I don't think that Buffy really
thought that all the good Angel had done up to that point would
suddenly be undone just because he decided to go watch the sun rise
rather than turn evil again.
>
>> Xander didn't. He saw Angel as fully responsible for everything he
>> did as a vampire and because of that he never trusted or liked Angel.
>>
>The difference is love and forgiveness. Notice that Xander still likes,
>trusts, and believes in Anya. Because he loves her and he has forgiven her.
So Xander is wearing the blinders of love where Anya is concerned,
just like Buffy did where Angel was concerned. How is this relevant
to this discussion?
>
>> Myself, I've decided to take a road somewhere in the middle between
>> those two. Yes, Angel is responsible for what he did as Angelus
>> because the entity that was Angelus (body+spirit+demon) is still a
>> part of who and what Angel is now, but I see the fact that he didn't
>> have his soul as a mitigating circumstance in that reduces his
>> culpability for Angelus actions the same way diminished mental
>> capacity does in real live - especially since Liam had no idea how
>> Darla would change him and no way to refuse to be changed.
>>
>Yes, there are mitigating circumstances. Willow's addiction to power and
>her grief over Tara was a mitigating circumstance. Anya's feelings of
>separation, loneliness, and sadness, are mitigating circumstances, Buffy's
>depression is a mitigating circumstance. Still, those character's have
>accepted responsibility for their actions.
And Angel hasn't? You must have been watching a different show from
the one I've been watching.
>
>> It's kind of like someone shooting you up with mind-altering drugs
>> against your will, and you doing horrible things under the influence.
>>
>> Then you get put in rehab against your will and come out of your
>> continuous drugged stupor and while you are truly horrified by what
>> you did while under the influence, your body has become so dependent
>> on it that you are left with a constant craving that you have to fight
>> every minute of every day in order to stay on the 'straight and
>> narrow.'
>>
>> How far would you hold such a person responsible for the action
>> committed while drugged against their will?
>>
>Most likely, that person would have been labeled as "temporarily insane" and
>let off the hook.
In our justice system? Possibly if the person in question had a good
defense lawyer.
But you didn't answer my question. How far would *you* hold such a
person responsible? And would whether or not they feel guilty make
any difference to your decision? You stated earlier that since Angel
*feels* guilty he *must be* guilty. So if the hypothetical drugged
human above didn't feel guilty about having killed their family you
would agree that they aren't - but if they have enough moral
conscience to feel bad about those deaths, then they are guilty?
In Beauty and the Beast, the boy didn't feel guilty about abusing his
girlfriend, instead blaming her as in 'it's your fault for making me
angry' and since he made the girl (can't remember either of their
names at the moment) feel guilty, that means that he was innocent and
it *was* all her fault (the beating, the elixir that turned him into a
monster, the killing of the guidance counselor)?
>However, if that person was unable, or unwilling, to stay
>away from the drugs and the behavior continued they would have to be held
>accountable for their actions, eventually. In other words, mitigating
>circumstances only mitigate you so far.
Agreed. But by the same token, if said person is actively trying to
do right, and live right, is going out of his way to help people, that
should also count for something.
H.G.Hettinger
<slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>"H.G.Hettinger" <hgh...@localnet.com> wrote in message
>news:jb27tu8b8dc70524q...@4ax.com...
(snip)
>> Imho, it wasn't the loss of his soul that made him so especially nasty
>> and violent, but the addition of the demon. YMMV.
>>
>And what I'm saying is that the demon takes advantage of the humans
>weaknesses. And all humans have a weakness. Liam's weakness is a tendency
>to hold a grudge and get nasty when he's irritated. The vampire demon turns
>that weakness into full blown Angelus.
And I think that the demon takes advantage of the humans strengths.
Liam was intelligent, sensitive, and creative (all qualities that
lead to his father looking down on him as less then 'manly' and a
'terrible disappointment'). It was those talents that Angelus used to
rise above the average vampire, using his perception and sensitivity
to understand his victims and his creativity to taylor the emotional
and physical torment to achieve the greatest effect.
H.G.Hettinger
<slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>"Tammy Stephanie Davis" <t...@millipede.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> wrote in message
>news:cb9B9.869$ho1....@news.itd.umich.edu...
>> In article <xrqdne88lKi...@comcast.com>,
>> DarkMagic <slnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
(snip)
>> :>
>> :> The Pope didn't take part in the inquisition. He wasn't even alive at
>> :> the time. He doesn't remember torturing people.
>> :>
>> :Exactly. And if William's soul, i.e. William, departed the body and went
>to
>> :visit the ether for a hundred years or so, he doesn't remember torturing
>> :people, either. Coming back into the vampires body would, at worst, be
>like
>> :watching the "Schindler's List" of the vampire world. It would be
>> :horrifying, but not guilt producing.
>>
>> Wrong. It would be both horrifying and guilt producing because the
>> memories, *are in the first person*. As has been mentioned repeatedly by
>> both parties and other characters, Angel and Spike see and *feel*
>> themselves committing all those murders because their souls are now part
>> of the demons memories.
>>
>In other words, in your understanding of the B-verse an innocent human soul
>is sucked out of the ether and thrust into the body of serial killer. It
>then becomes an actual indistinguishable part of the serial killer, they are
>seamless, the human and the demon aspects of this entity. The human soul is
>forced into accountability for actions it had no part of and knew nothing
>about.
Pretty horrific thing to do to a person, isn't it? Why do you think
the scoobies aren't going around and doing whole sale 're-souling'
spells on all the vampires? Even if you caught th person and
re-souled them before the vampire had a chance to feed, you would
still force the soul into the most intimate co-existence with a demon
you can imagine, because, while the soul and the demon don't merge
themselves each merges with the spirit (standing for your memories and
personality).
It's the best justification I can see for the Slayer mandate to stake
all vampires on sight - whether they had a chance to kill yet or not.
Since we've been told that Angel got his own soul back, that suggests
that the soul of a vamped person can't move on (to wherever souls go
in the Buffyverse) as long as the spirit that used to be a part of it
is still stuck in the body (now tied to the demon). So, what Buffy is
doing is not only sending the demon back, but freeing the spirit and
with it the soul that used to be the original human.
The vampire demon is a parasite of the worst kind.
>Why is it then that ME so continually defines and points out the
>contrast between the demon and the human aspects of it's characters?
Because the soul and the demon are both constantly trying to exert
their influence over the spirit and demon and soul *didn't* merge,
they just overlap in that they both merged with the spirit.
>Especially, vampires. Are souled vampires the only characters on the entire
>show forced to accept responsibilty for things they didn't do? Why aren't
>the other characters telling Angel and Spike not to feel guilty because they
>aren't really guilty they just think they are?
Because a part of them (the spirit) *was* there when all that evil was
committed. And like humans vampires still have free will. They can
refuse to kill and torture, just like humans can refuse to be good in
spite of having a soul. It's just that with being 'evil' there comes
almost instant gratification while being 'good' is a very thankless
job (as both shows have shown more than once).
>While, at the same time,
>Willow, Buffy, Anya, Faith etc...are forced to 'fess up and atone for their
>bad behavior? In your scenario the soul is a get out of jail free card.
>And if that's true then Angel and Spike are the only characters on the show
>who bear no responsibility for making bad choices.
They at the very least bear full responsibility for any choice they
make with the soul present - which means that even if Angel shouldn't
be held fully responsible for the things he did since getting
resouled, he is still fully responsible for everything he did before
being turned into a vampire and for everything he did since getting
his soul back.
As far as responsibility for what they did while soulless, to quote
Connor and Angel from "Deep Down":
Connor after a beat: "Even if - you still deserved it."
Angel: "What I deserve is open to debate."
Which is what has lead to this as well as many other newsgroup thread
over the years.
(snip)
>>
>> Your analogies are off-base because they don't include the first-person
>> perspective coupled with the feeling of enjoyment that both Angel and
>> Spike's soul feel from those memories of those killings.
Imho that should be 'that they both *remember* feeling, and that the
demonic part of them *still* feels even while the soul is horrified
and repulsed by the very idea. - Talk about being torn.
>
>No, they aren't. If William and Liam aren't present in the vampire at all
>times the above is exactly what they experience after being reensouled.
But that's just what I've been trying to get across. There is no easy
distinction because *a part* of them (the spirit) *was* present
through out the human, vampire, and ensouled vampire stages of their
life. As far as the spirit and with it their first person memory is
concerned there is not break in consciousness.
>You
>can't experience a first person perspective if you aren't present in the
>first person. But, my biggest problem with this theory is that Spike and
>Angel are innocent once they are souled, even if they don't feel that way.
Are they? Imho, there is no easy, quick answer to this, which is why
we *still* debate this whole issue on a recurring basis.
>Which, as Rose and others have pointed out many times, makes everyone else
>on the show utter scum bags for not treating them like the complete
>innocents they really are. It would be like Buffy brought back from Heaven
>and accidentally ending up in the body of a biker demon roaming around her
>grave. She would feel guilty because she remembers what the biker demon
>remembers and she would feel the pleasure doing those things gave the biker
>demon. Even though she also remembers being in heaven and knows that she
>didn't really do those things, she still feels guilty and responsible. And
>the gang holds Buffy accountable for everything the biker demon did, even
>though they know she was in heaven and that being in a biker demon isn't
>something she ever wanted. It's still her fault just for being there. It's
>the stupidest set-up anyone could imagine. Character's feeling guilty for
>things they didn't do, and other characters holding them accountable for
>actions they never committed. While at the same time everyone thinks and
>believes just the opposite.
Your above analogy would only work if that biker demon had been
created by magically separating Buffy's spirit from her soul and
taking over Buffy's body.
None of the gang held Angel responsible for what Marcus did with his
vampire body while Angel's spirit and soul changed places with Marcus'
spirit and soul - even though the demon stayed behind with Angel's
body to instead bond with Marcus spirit and soul.
As many problems as "Carpe Noctem" had, it did establish some
metaphysical ground rules in that it confirmed Dan Sample's theory
about the body-spirit-soul make up of humans in the Buffy-verse and
putting the final kibosh to my own alternate theory (which had been
looking continuously more shaky as the show moved along).
You don't have to like it. You are free to ignore it if you prefer
your own version to that stated and adhered to on the show - but that
doesn't change the fact that that *is* they way it has been and is
being portrayed to be on the show.
Tammy Stephanie Davis
H.G.Hettinger <hett...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
:On Fri, 15 Nov 2002 12:51:40 -0500, "DarkMagic"
Except for being a little confused by this separation of spirit and
soul, (it seems to me that in the Buffyverse, the soul and spirit are
considered to be one of the same thing), I agree with the above
assessment. This is, afterall, the reason why the Kalderdash
gypsies chose to restore Liam's soul as a form of punishment; it
is a horrific experience which causes extraordinary emotional and
psychological pain and guilt.
:It's the best justification I can see for the Slayer mandate to stake
:all vampires on sight - whether they had a chance to kill yet or not.
:Since we've been told that Angel got his own soul back, that suggests
:that the soul of a vamped person can't move on (to wherever souls go
:in the Buffyverse) as long as the spirit that used to be a part of it
:is still stuck in the body (now tied to the demon). So, what Buffy is
:doing is not only sending the demon back, but freeing the spirit and
:with it the soul that used to be the original human.
Again, except for the the spirit/soul thing, I agree. I've often thought
that Buffy's ultimate purpose as a vampire slayer was to put soul and body
to a final rest. (However, W&H being able to bring back Darla as human
kinda puts a monkey wrench in that theory.)
:The vampire demon is a parasite of the worst kind.
Absolutely.
:>Why is it then that ME so continually defines and points out the
:>contrast between the demon and the human aspects of it's characters?
:
:Because the soul and the demon are both constantly trying to exert
:their influence over the spirit and demon and soul *didn't* merge,
:they just overlap in that they both merged with the spirit.
And it makes good drama. ;)
:>Especially, vampires. Are souled vampires the only characters on the entire
:>show forced to accept responsibilty for things they didn't do? Why aren't
:>the other characters telling Angel and Spike not to feel guilty because they
:>aren't really guilty they just think they are?
:
:Because a part of them (the spirit) *was* there when all that evil was
:committed. And like humans vampires still have free will. They can
:refuse to kill and torture, just like humans can refuse to be good in
:spite of having a soul. It's just that with being 'evil' there comes
:almost instant gratification while being 'good' is a very thankless
:job (as both shows have shown more than once).
:
:>While, at the same time,
:>Willow, Buffy, Anya, Faith etc...are forced to 'fess up and atone for their
:>bad behavior? In your scenario the soul is a get out of jail free card.
:>And if that's true then Angel and Spike are the only characters on the show
:>who bear no responsibility for making bad choices.
:
:They at the very least bear full responsibility for any choice they
:make with the soul present - which means that even if Angel shouldn't
:be held fully responsible for the things he did since getting
:resouled, he is still fully responsible for everything he did before
:being turned into a vampire and for everything he did since getting
:his soul back.
That's why Angel locking the door on those evil lawyers was so
problematic as far as his soul was concerned. Despite what
Drusilla said ("Daddy!"), the responsibility for leaving Darla
and Dru in with those lawyers and locking the door is Angel's
all the way. (Whether it was evil, wrong, justified, tactically
correct or whatever is, of course a WHOLE different debate altogether).
:As far as responsibility for what they did while soulless, to quote
:Connor and Angel from "Deep Down":
:Connor after a beat: "Even if - you still deserved it."
:Angel: "What I deserve is open to debate."
Considering the guilt-issues Angel still has from all those
sick memories he carries in his soul, he's not exactly the most
objective judge on what he deserves. What he does know is that
its impossible to makeup for what Angelus did so its best to
just go on with his life and do what he can to keep people from
suffering as they do.
:Which is what has lead to this as well as many other newsgroup thread
:over the years.
:
:(snip)
:>>
:>> Your analogies are off-base because they don't include the first-person
:>> perspective coupled with the feeling of enjoyment that both Angel and
:>> Spike's soul feel from those memories of those killings.
:
:Imho that should be 'that they both *remember* feeling, and that the
:demonic part of them *still* feels even while the soul is horrified
:and repulsed by the very idea. - Talk about being torn.
Thus despite Angel's acceptance - and ultimately appreciation of being
given a second chance - and Spike's demand that it be done to him, the
fact is is that resouling a vampire should still considered a curse.
:>No, they aren't. If William and Liam aren't present in the vampire at all
And it has also been protrayed on the show that when a vampire decides
to vamp someone, the human has no choice.
--
Don Sample
Davis <t...@asteroids.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> wrote:
> Except for being a little confused by this separation of spirit and
> soul, (it seems to me that in the Buffyverse, the soul and spirit are
> considered to be one of the same thing), I agree with the above
> assessment. This is, afterall, the reason why the Kalderdash
> gypsies chose to restore Liam's soul as a form of punishment; it
> is a horrific experience which causes extraordinary emotional and
> psychological pain and guilt.
In the Buffyverse things like memory seem to be independant of both the
body and the soul. Angel has a continuity of memory from the human
Liam, through the soulless vampire Angelus, to 100 years of brooding
souled Angel, to a few months of soulless Angelus and back to being
souled again. We also have ghosts whose bodies are gone, but they
still remember their lives.
In order for that to be there has to be at least two separate
noncorporeal parts of a person. The soul, and something else, that I
call the spirit.
The spirit carries the memories, and the intelligence, but on its own
it is a sociopath, unable to distinguish right from wrong. It is
totally selfish, doing what it wants for its own selfish reasons.
Sam
Right. Because he still has all that demonic sadism and love of
brutality locked up inside him... and when he thinks someone deserves
it, he allows himself to act on those urges.
> > So the result is a vampire that seeks pleasure and finds it in the
> artistic
> > expression of sadism, all while feeling the need to prove that he's really
> > something special. In other words, a vampire overachiever.
> >
> > I shudder to think what you'd get if you vamped Wes. As a human, he's
> > already quite ruthless when he needs to be. He's exceptionally
> intelligent,
> > shrewd and calculating. And, boy, does he have a need to prove himself.
> He'd
> > be potentially more dangerous than Angelus because he wouldn't bother
> > wasting time with artistry or pleasure when killing. He'd just kill, get
> it
> > over with and move on to the next target. He'd be the sort to bring down
> > governments rather than wasting time raiding convents.
>
> I hope we never find out.
I'd actually really like to see one of the main characters turned into
a recurring vampire character. It amazes me that it hasn't happened
yet.
Imagine the fun the writers could have if, say, Fred were turned, and
everyone had to deal with that.
> >
> > Oh, and back to the argument of whether or not the soul is really there
> all
> > along and it's just a matter of which is in charge, I do believe we have
> > onscreen proof that this isn't the case. Didn't they say that the Orb of
> > Whatever (the one they needed to do the curse) was a vessel to hold the
> soul
> > when it was taken out of the ether before it could be put into the
> vampire?
> > If the soul is still inside and just needs to be reawakened, or whatever,
> > then they wouldn't need a vessel to hold the soul as part of the curse.
>
> Apparently, they don't need the vessel to hold the soul. There was no Orb
> of Thessela laying around Lurky's cave before he souled Spike. I don't know
> what the Orb does, exactly, but it never made sense to me that it was
> holding the soul. Willow was no where near Angel when his soul was
> restored. (I don't believe the gypsy lady was, either, when it was restored
> originally) If a soul can jump from the middle of the hospital bed to the
> abandoned mansion across town, all on it's own, the soul doesn't need to be
> contained in anything. If Willow had to smash the Orb at Angel's feet, or
> something approximate, that would make more sense. Not a lot, but more.
It made sense to me. The Orb is what was used to pull the soul onto
this plane of existence from wherever it had gone off to in the Great
Beyond. Once it was here, it was then possible to send it from the Orb
to somewhere else on this plane -- the body it used to inhabit.
In
> any case, my belief is that the "Restoration Spell" restores the human soul
> to control over the body it inhabits. Until then, it lies repressed by the
> demonic soul of the vampire demon.
So how do you explain all the times they've fairly explicitly said
stuff about the soul just not being there? We've seen at least two
demons with the actual supernatural ability to detect human souls
basically come right out and say that they just ain't present in a
vampire.
> >
> > And I'm not just saying that because my personal pet theory for how we'll
> > next see Angelus is that he won't outright lose his soul, just that his
> soul
> > will lose control of the demon. That means it will be harder to fight him
> > because staking Angel when his soul is still there would be more difficult
> > for his friends, and it means they don't already know how to go about
> > restoring him.
> >
> Interesting, and it may be likely to play out this way. It would prove, I
> believe, that the soul is not the crucial issue in controlling the demon.
> Also, it would make it more difficult, I think, for the gang to forgive
> Angel for the things he says and does as Angelus. Sort of like the ep. in
> the first season where Angel is given the drug Ecstasy and loses control.
>
To be honest, I'm hoping for a good old fashioned soul-losin'.
>
> Shannon
> >
Sam
>
> The point of the Initiative, or part of it, was to show that treating
> demons, any demons, inhumanely dehumanizes the human as much as it does the
> demon. Recall Oz, shivering naked in a cell, while he listens to the
> screams of demons being tortured, dissected and killed all around him. And
> Riley's horror, when he realizes that his co-workers think it's perfectly
> alright to treat Oz the way they do because he's part demon. Then, there
> was the whole issue of Gunn and his gang at logger heads over the
> destruction of demons simply because they are demons. ME has made it very
> clear that not all demons are evil.
Just to muddy things a bit, I'd like to point out once more that that
episode went out of its way to make things *extremely* ambiguous on
whether Gunn's gang was, in fact, wrong. Most of the things they
killed at Caritas were evil, and Angel and company were downright
chummy with them. Gio was *right* about how screwed up it was for Gunn
to be protecting a baby eating monster... let alone for Lorne to be
serving it in his restaurant.
The writer even went out of his way to make Lorne, of all demons,
menacing. From the shooting script: "BASH! Gio smashes the Host in the
face with the butt of his shotgun. The Host's head snaps back. He
slowly turns to look back at Gio, fresh red blood splashed on his
mouth -which is smiling. And it is chilling."
And here's the original end to the scene at Caritas:
----
... and the thing instantly bites off Gio's head while he's in mid
sentence. His headless body drops to the floor. The Morphed Demon
SNARLS and ROARS at the room, moving toward the stage and knocking
three or four Gang Members on their asses as he goes.
ANGEL
Guys.
WESLEY
Yeah --
GUNN
See that--
Rondell, terrified, FIRES his gun into the thing. Wesley shoves the
gun down toward the floor.
WESLEY
No! That's a Nurbtach! Lead
only makes it stronger!
ANGEL
How fast do you think we can
get that sanctorium spell back up?
HOST
Not fast enough --
It attacks. But so do our guys. Angel rushes in, pulling a machete (or
something cool) off a dazed Gang Kid as he goes. Hacking away now, as
-- Gunn grabs up the crossbow off Gio's fallen body, Wes finds a
sword. They join in the fray. The MORPHED COWERING DEMON ragdolls them
around the bar. Rondell watches, pulls an ax, joins in. Gunn and he
share-a look, continue fighting.
And side by side, shoulder to shoulder, our boys and Rondell kick some
demon butt.
All four of the boys: Angel, Gunn, Wesley and Rondell, surround the
thing and in a fast-cut one-two-three-four, each one brings down their
weapon!
The demon goes down, death rattle on the floor. The guys all take a
step back. The guys look to each other, allowing a moment of mutual
satisfaction.
----
Really think the point of the episode was to show that demons are a
misunderstood minority, as some people seem to argue?
Merle was such a demon. Pathetic, not
> exactly a good guy, but not into the mass murder of humans or world
> destroying evil.
>
Merle was evil. Merle made his onscreen debut tricking Angel into
killing a champion so that Merle himself could kill the pregnant woman
said Champion was guarding.
He was a pathetic sort of evil instead of a Big Bad, true. He was a
parasite demon, not a Senior Partner.
But he was still evil.
> or, for that matter, setting fire to sadistic vampires.
>
> Stake 'em. Doing away with evil is one thing, torturing it say's something
> else altogether.
>
That much, I can go with.
>
> Shannon
H.G.Hettinger
<hgh...@localnet.com> wrote:
>They at the very least bear full responsibility for any choice they
>make with the soul present - which means that even if Angel shouldn't
>be held fully responsible for the things he did since getting
that should have been "before getting re-souled' - not since - duh!
>resouled, he is still fully responsible for everything he did before
>being turned into a vampire and for everything he did since getting
>his soul back.
hgh
David Cheatham
Because vampire souls don't have any memory or volition, like I was saying
somewhere else.