BTK question
debs asw
the police had info that lead them to the church (and him). However I
haven't heard anything about what BTK actually put on the disk. If
anyone knows please let me know. debs
cro...@earthlink.net
identifying info as to the owner of the disk, the piece of plastic/metal
itself...was traced back to the church where he was a deacon and limited #
of persons had access to church computer/disks...
"debs asw" <DEBS...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:569-434C...@storefull-3135.bay.webtv.net...
debs asw
WANTED the police to see? debs
monkeyhawk
> ... but I was curious what BTK himself had put on the disk that he
> WANTED the police to see? debs
You might go to www.kansas.com. That's the Wichita "Eagle" web site with a
BTK archives section.
It's a bit frustrating, since some of the stories the list com up "Document
not found." (I assume those stories were removed from the archive because
they show the Wichita "Eagle" reportage to be off the mark. But that's just
my guess.)
The floppy involved was sent to KSAS-TV, and -- after an albeit brief
search -- I couldn't find exactly what Rader sent them *intending* for them
to read.
If he'd used a new floppy, he's still be free. By re-using a
previously-recorded disk, he hung himself.
Many years ago I lived in Wichita and had a friend who was on the police
force there. He said, "If smart people ever start committing crimes,
society is fucked." He said most solved crimes are due to the perp making a
stupid mistake.
The only reason Dennis Rader is in the pokey now is that he wasn't smart
enough to know that an "erased" floppy disk doesn't *really* erase data,
merely frees it up to be over-written.
Otherwise, he was a pretty crafty killer. He varied his MOs, didn't have a
"type" of victim (i.e., young, or blonde, or hooker, etc.), and paced
himself (didn't strike "every full moon" or somesuch).
I was struck by his apparent study of *other* serial killers. I'm not sure
he was driven by an inner psychological "need" to take trophies (for
example), rather that he did that because "that's what serial killers do."
The only reason he contacted the media was to get recognition.
The only reason he reemerged was there was a book being written about him.
If he'd kept quiet, chances are that none of his crimes would have been
interconnected and he'd still be out there stalking (and killing) victims.
Although the attention he would get probably, in some perverse way, will
give him a certain degree of notoriety he craves, I hope the FBI and a
legion of psychiatrists study this guy. I suspect his pathology is much
more common in our society than we want to think.
Kris Baker
"Bart Bailey" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:434c0cbf...@bart.spawar.mil...
> In Message-ID:<569-434C...@storefull-3135.bay.webtv.net> posted on
> Tue, 11 Oct 2005 13:43:27 -0500, debs asw wrote: Begin
> MS-Word program (.doc), and whomever set up the computer probably listed
> the church or some reference to it.
> Now if he'd only used a simple text file (.txt)
> on a generic brand of floppy...
>
> --
>
> Bart
It was even simpler than that; he re-used a disk that he'd
previously used to prepare a church-related document. I'm
thinking it was a schedule of some kind.
Kris
Kris Baker
"monkeyhawk" <monke...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:2%U2f.24772$b65.2694@okepread01...
> "debs asw" <DEBS...@webtv.net> wrote:
>
>> ... but I was curious what BTK himself had put on the disk that he
>> WANTED the police to see? debs
>
> You might go to www.kansas.com. That's the Wichita "Eagle" web site with
> a BTK archives section.
>
> It's a bit frustrating, since some of the stories the list com up
> "Document not found." (I assume those stories were removed from the
> archive because they show the Wichita "Eagle" reportage to be off the
> mark. But that's just my guess.)
>
> The floppy involved was sent to KSAS-TV, and -- after an albeit brief
> search -- I couldn't find exactly what Rader sent them *intending* for
> them to read.
>
> If he'd used a new floppy, he's still be free. By re-using a
> previously-recorded disk, he hung himself.
>
> Many years ago I lived in Wichita and had a friend who was on the police
> force there. He said, "If smart people ever start committing crimes,
> society is fucked." He said most solved crimes are due to the perp making
> a stupid mistake.
>
> The only reason Dennis Rader is in the pokey now is that he wasn't smart
> enough to know that an "erased" floppy disk doesn't *really* erase data,
> merely frees it up to be over-written.
LE was already onto him as a suspect; when he made the drop
in the Home Depot parking lot, his vehicle was clearly shown...
and LE was therefore given a major clue: a Park City official
town pickup truck was spotted on other security cams near
his other "drops".
> The only reason he reemerged was there was a book being written about him.
He re-emerged after the Wichita Eagle published their
"BTK 30th Anniversary" articles.....which may have
publicized the book. But I don't think he'd have known
about the book otherwise (IF it was already being written).
Kris
monkeyhawk
news:4TV2f.421$j66...@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com...
I'm pretty sure the book was already being written. I think it was the news
"hook" that prompted the newspaper story.
I'm pretty sure that victim #10 (and maybe #9) hadn't been attributed to BTK
at the time the 30th Anniversary story appeared.
Dennis Rader's pathology (aside from binding, and torturing, and killing
people, of course) was his need for recognition.
It was a perverse permutation of the old joke about pissing your pants in a
brown suit: if gives you a warm, comfortable feeling, and nobody notices.
A side note regarding Wichita is the case of "The Poet."
About the same time BTK was killing people, a woman was getting threatening
messages from someone who identified themselves as "The Poet." The
"targeted victim" called out the cops, sometimes (as I recall) had wounds
inflicted upon her...until the Wichita Police put a bunch of cops on
observation and discovered that the "victim" was doing all the threatening
activities to *herself!* She was suffering from
multiple-personality-disorder, traced to a childhood of sexual abuse, and
had tied up Wichita LE for thousands of hours.
There's another fascinating Wichita true-crime that occurred when I lived
there. Two teenaged girls were strangled/drowned in a hot tub, the hot tub
serviceman's truck was left at the scene, he was arrested in Florida driving
one of the girls' Volkswagen, brought back to trial and was *acquitted!*
The foreman of the jury self-published an account of the jury's decision.
He persuaded the jury that the defendant, Bill Butterworth, wasn't
responsible for the murders, but that he was possessed by the Devil! And,
so, *SATAN* was responsible!!
Wichita is Middle America -- by every measure.
Be afraid.
Be very afraid.
CITSF
against the "metadata" of every document which almost invariably points
somewhere interesting, like back to the owner of the software
(Microsoft is nice about filling up some of the data for you).
There is also volume information that is placed on the disk when it is
reformatted. Anyway, unless a floppy disk is reformatted in a
particular way, the old data will remain until it is overwritten.
It's a lot for your average killer to keep up with.
Carol L. Stimmel, CCE
http://www.citsf.com
DedNd...@aol.com
>responsible for the murders, but that he was possessed by the Devil! And, so, *SATAN* >was responsible!!
Wichita is Middle America -- by every >measure.
Be afraid. Be very afraid.
I would be if I lived there. (And I thought California was a lack of
punishment state just because they don't execute people in a timely
manner.)
How about that Kansas preacher who got out after only about 20 years
after killing his wife and his girlfriend's husband in cold blood. Was
the Devil responsible for that too? (How about witches?)
Nancy Rudins
> In Message-ID:<569-434C...@storefull-3135.bay.webtv.net> posted on
> Tue, 11 Oct 2005 13:43:27 -0500, debs asw wrote: Begin
>
>
> MS-Word program (.doc), and whomever set up the computer probably listed
> the church or some reference to it.
> Now if he'd only used a simple text file (.txt)
> on a generic brand of floppy...
>
He should have just chiselled it on stone. :) :)
Kind regards,
Nancy
--
Flame War is over ... if you want it
nru...@ncsa.uiuc.edu
http://www.ncsa.uiuc.edu/People/nrudins/
Michael Snyder
"Kris Baker" <kris....@prodigyyy.net> wrote in message
news:4TV2f.421$j66...@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com...
>
> news:2%U2f.24772$b65.2694@okepread01...
> > The only reason Dennis Rader is in the pokey now is that he wasn't smart
> > enough to know that an "erased" floppy disk doesn't *really* erase data,
> > merely frees it up to be over-written.
>
> LE was already onto him as a suspect; when he made the drop
> in the Home Depot parking lot, his vehicle was clearly shown...
> and LE was therefore given a major clue: a Park City official
> town pickup truck was spotted on other security cams near
> his other "drops".
I thought they were unable to get a license number from that?
There were thousands of jeep cherokees (I think it was) in
Wichita, and the surveillance pics of Dennis himself were not
very revealing either. I seriously doubt that they had ID'd him
from that.
Michael Snyder
> Tue, 11 Oct 2005 13:43:27 -0500, debs asw wrote: Begin
>
> MS-Word program (.doc), and whomever set up the computer probably listed
> the church or some reference to it.
An MS-Word document would contain a serial number that
could be traced to the registered owner of the copy of Word
with which it was written (in this case, the church).
> Now if he'd only used a simple text file (.txt)
> on a generic brand of floppy...
Hell, a text file on a NEW floppy, instead of an erased one!
Michael Snyder
Plus, I think some file on the disk (possibly erased) included
his "login", which was Dennis. And he was the only Dennis
with access to the computer.
Michael Snyder
> In Message-ID:<MNV2f.420$j66...@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com> posted on
> Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:04:44 GMT, Kris Baker wrote: Begin
> >It was even simpler than that; he re-used a disk that he'd
> >previously used to prepare a church-related document. I'm
> >thinking it was a schedule of some kind.
> >
> >Kris
>
> Probably didn't know the difference between deleted data (block address
> flagged available) and overwritten data (obscured).
> Had he bothered to use a simple bulk tape eraser (RadioShack 44-233) he
> could have obliterated even the forensically useful free space bits of a
> previous file.
> I guess some BTK of the future will use much smaller digital flash media
> like a Secure Data chip or even an old leftover Compact Flash chip from
> their first digital camera. They can be totally overwritten, and unless
> some careless fool forgets to do this and maybe leaves an incriminating
> EXIF tag, or fingerprints, will be virtually untraceable.
Flash media is no different from floppies in this respect. In fact, they're
the same file system (FAT, or File Attribute Table). Deleting a picture
from a flash card doesn't eliminate it any more than deleting a file from
a floppy does.
I have a program, provided by the flash card manufacturer,
for recovering deleted files from a flash card. I'm sure the
police have it too.
Kris Baker
> In Message-ID:<snb3f.2154$Aw.3...@typhoon.sonic.net> posted on Wed, 12
> Oct 2005 17:05:28 GMT, Michael Snyder wrote: Begin
> file and process it to reveal anything the plot requires?
It wasn't that it was a common truck. It was what it had
on it.
They saw enough of it, to ID it as a Park City city vehicle.
Remember, it had a logo on the doors. Color, logo color.....
you wouldn't need to see much detail when you saw the
same vehicle in several surveillance tapes.
Kris
Kris Baker
> In Message-ID:<Pme3f.30$LX2...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com> posted on
> Wed, 12 Oct 2005 20:29:35 GMT, Kris Baker wrote: Begin
>
>>It wasn't that it was a common truck. It was what it had
>>on it.
>>
>>They saw enough of it, to ID it as a Park City city vehicle.
>>Remember, it had a logo on the doors. Color, logo color.....
>>you wouldn't need to see much detail when you saw the
>>same vehicle in several surveillance tapes.
>
>
> --
>
> Bart
He was living in the past, I'd say. He really gave no credence to computer
capability, never considered he couldn't do much without surveillance
cameras seeing him........
Not only did the Home Depot camera catch the car, but it
showed him in all of his glory.
Kris
Michael Snyder
> In Message-ID:<Swb3f.2160$Aw.3...@typhoon.sonic.net> posted on Wed, 12
> Oct 2005 17:15:30 GMT, Michael Snyder wrote: Begin
>
> >> I guess some BTK of the future will use much smaller digital flash
media
> >> like a Secure Data chip or even an old leftover Compact Flash chip from
> >> their first digital camera. They can be totally overwritten, and unless
> >> some careless fool forgets to do this and maybe leaves an incriminating
> >> EXIF tag, or fingerprints, will be virtually untraceable.
> >
> >Flash media is no different from floppies in this respect. In fact,
they're
> >the same file system (FAT, or File Attribute Table).
>
Right.
> And the capacity of 32 bit FAT32 flash media are quite different
> than 12 bit FAT12 floppies, as different as two terabytes capacity is to
> sixteen megabytes.
Were we talking about capacity?
Michael Snyder
> In Message-ID:<frb3f.2156$Aw.3...@typhoon.sonic.net> posted on Wed, 12
> Oct 2005 17:09:31 GMT, Michael Snyder wrote: Begin
>
> >Hell, a text file on a NEW floppy, instead of an erased one!
>
> office, maybe stop by WalMart for a cheepo ten pack.
> But then again, he seemed to have more of a death wish for recognition
> than anonymity for his deeds.
>
> I wonder how such a control freak as he was
> is enjoying the structure of prison life,
> controlled by others than himself?
My guess is, he always knew that capture and prison
would be the final chapter in his story. He probably
accepts it as the inevitable eventuality.
Nancy Rudins
> In Message-ID:<11kq346...@news.supernews.com> posted on Wed, 12 Oct
> 2005 08:15:44 -0500, Nancy Rudins wrote: Begin
>
>>He should have just chiselled it on stone. :) :)
>
>
> comparing the chisel marks on the message tablet with their seemingly
> inexhaustible database of worldwide chisel tip signatures. ;-)
>
That's one program that can drive me nuts when I watch it. They don't
get anything right, and there's a lot of people who think investigations
really work that way. Love the chisel tip signature database :)
Michael Snyder
> In Message-ID:<nGm3f.2241$Aw.4...@typhoon.sonic.net> posted on Thu, 13
> Oct 2005 05:56:35 GMT, Michael Snyder wrote: Begin
> out the interminable boredom of his ponderous final chapter.
> Now that the blush is off the rose, and his last hurrah of fame has
> withered into a daily unrelenting sameness so unlike his previous
> freedom filled existence, I wonder if he is starting to have regrets
> that he didn't just accept a measure of anonymity as a trade off for the
> opportunity to continue to feed the fantasies of his paraphilia.
Yeah, but he knows that people are talking about him.
If he could just get to see the CBS specials, the 48 Hours
episodes, read all the news clips, his life would be full,
not empty. That's presumably why LE wants to prevent
him from getting them.
Of course, if he knows that they're preventing him from
getting them, his imagination can paint his fame even
greater than it is.
Michael Snyder
> BTW: how much capacity does one need to incriminate themselves anyway?
My point exactly.
PattyC
"Nancy Rudins" <nru...@ncsa.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:11ksprq...@news.supernews.com...
> Bart Bailey wrote:
>> In Message-ID:<11kq346...@news.supernews.com> posted on Wed, 12 Oct
>> 2005 08:15:44 -0500, Nancy Rudins wrote: Begin
>>>He should have just chiselled it on stone. :) :)
>>
>>
>> Sounds like a CSI segment where one of the photogenic actors is
>> comparing the chisel marks on the message tablet with their seemingly
>> inexhaustible database of worldwide chisel tip signatures. ;-)
>
> That's one program that can drive me nuts when I watch it. They don't
> get anything right, and there's a lot of people who think investigations
> really work that way. Love the chisel tip signature database :)
>
> Kind regards,
> Nancy
>
>
"stuff." I have gone back to it several times, because it gets such high
praise, but.... I find it totally unrealistic and the effects all pretty
much boring.
PattyC
Kris Baker
"PattyC" <pattycno...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:JGW3f.664$Lb1.158@trndny03...
Same here. I like L&O SVU, though....because the characters are
well-drawn.
We laughed at the "chisel tip signature database", as if you couldn't
sharpen
your chisel tip to disguise it ;)
Kris
Kris Baker
> In Message-ID:<UeX3f.324$RI2...@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net> posted on
> Fri, 14 Oct 2005 23:33:08 GMT, Kris Baker wrote: Begin
>
>>
>>We laughed at the "chisel tip signature database", as if you couldn't
>>sharpen
>>your chisel tip to disguise it ;)
>
> next thing you know they'll be overwriting their floppies <g>
>
> --
>
> Bart
...and getting blood from other people for DNA tests.
Kris
cro...@earthlink.net
person's urine for their own for a drug test...
"Kris Baker" <kris....@prodigyyy.net> wrote in message
news:sHa4f.358$Fo1...@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...