Elian Gonzalez thanks America
Anne W.
Elian Gonzalez thanks America
Items compiled from Tribune news services
Published April 24, 2005
HAVANA, CUBA -- Elian Gonzalez, the former Cuban castaway, addressed a
crowd of thousands and thanking Cubans and Americans alike for
fighting for his return to the island.
Elian, now 11, read a speech at a televised event in Havana on Friday
marking the fifth anniversary of the raid in which armed U.S. federal
agents snatched him from his Miami relatives.
"Five years ago I returned to my dad," he said. "That was the happiest
day of my life."
--
Anne W.
indigoace at goodsol period com
http://www.goodsol.com/cats/
eman
"Anne W." <indi...@seesignature.com> wrote in message
news:426ec327....@news.prodigy.net...
> From the Chicago Tribune--
>
> Elian Gonzalez thanks America
>
> Items compiled from Tribune news services
> Published April 24, 2005
>
> HAVANA, CUBA -- Elian Gonzalez, the former Cuban castaway, addressed a
> crowd of thousands and thanking Cubans and Americans alike for
> fighting for his return to the island.
>
> Elian, now 11, read a speech at a televised event in Havana on Friday
> marking the fifth anniversary of the raid in which armed U.S. federal
> agents snatched him from his Miami relatives.
>
> "Five years ago I returned to my dad," he said. "That was the happiest
> day of my life."
Like what else was he supposed to say? Can you imagine him saying something
to the contrary?
G W Shrub
"eman" <lorna...@wildflower.com> wrote in message
news:TaadnWjLpaN...@comcast.com...
> Like what else was he supposed to say? Can you imagine him saying
something
> to the contrary?
OTOH is there anything to prove it's not genuine?
--
GW
eman
"G W Shrub" <wh...@my.house> wrote in message
news:haSae.61672$vt1.11968@edtnps90...
really has no idea what he is saying. Typical of communist countries. If
he really had full knowledge of what life is like here being a truly free
person as opposed to life under a dictator I am guessing he would have
different thoughts. He really wasn't old enough when kidnapped from his
grandparents to know what true freedom means, but someday he will.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
G W Shrub
> > OTOH is there anything to prove it's not genuine?
> No, but I think he has been brainwashed like all communist countries and
> really has no idea what he is saying. Typical of communist countries. If
> he really had full knowledge of what life is like here being a truly free
> person as opposed to life under a dictator I am guessing he would have
> different thoughts. He really wasn't old enough when kidnapped from his
> grandparents to know what true freedom means, but someday he will.
Since Castro took a header he hasn't had a lot of time to wash brains. China
is a communist country which does violently oppress it's people but the US
happily trades with them. Why?
--
GW
Wild Monkshood
Seems a normal thing to say. Of course, I suppose an appreciable part
of that happiness was no longer being in the custody of those crazy
Florida distant relatives. Elian, as an American citizen, I'd like to
say, "You're Welcome. Glad we were able to rescue you from the crazies.
Not all Americans think that other types of Government are wrong or
necessarily oppressive, just because we have a different one. Some of us
even realize that ours isn't perfect, and can be pretty darn repressive
at times, too."
Wild Monkshood
{krp}
>>
>> > Like what else was he supposed to say? Can you imagine him saying
>> something
>> > to the contrary?
>>
>> OTOH is there anything to prove it's not genuine?
>> --
>> GW
> No, but I think he has been brainwashed like all communist countries and
> really has no idea what he is saying. Typical of communist countries. If
> he really had full knowledge of what life is like here being a truly free
> person as opposed to life under a dictator I am guessing he would have
> different thoughts. He really wasn't old enough when kidnapped from his
> grandparents to know what true freedom means, but someday he will.
Like most Americans who have never been to Cuba you are clueless. I have
been. My wife is form Cuba.
I know first hand.
Visit www.therealcuba.com
{krp}
"G W Shrub" <wh...@my.house> wrote in message
Would you prefer nuclear war dimwit?
EnEss
> No, but I think he has been brainwashed like all communist countries and
> really has no idea what he is saying. Typical of communist countries. If
> he really had full knowledge of what life is like here being a truly free
> person as opposed to life under a dictator I am guessing he would have
> different thoughts. He really wasn't old enough when kidnapped from his
> grandparents to know what true freedom means, but someday he will.
First off, the Miami people weren't his grandparents. They were his mother's
uncle and a cousin whom he had never met. Second, he wasn't kidnapped. His
father had legal custody and the father had a legal right to reclaim his son
and return home w/ him. In reality, Elian's birth mother kidnapped Elian, in
that she took him out of the country w/o the boy's father's consent or
knowledge, subjecting all of them to extreme danger. If the father had taken
him that way, I would say the same thing. The father had been intricately
involved in his son's life from the day of his birth and had a right to
maintain that relationship. The mother's actions not only deprived Mr.
Gonzales of that right, and deprived Elian of the right to that relationship
w/ his father, but she put them all in danger by taking such reckless
action. Her imprudence and rashness cost Elian his mother. That was a
terrible thing to do the boy. I'm sure it has caused Elian considerable
trauma and grief.
Third, the uncle and cousin aided and abetted the kidnapping by keeping
Elian essentially a prisoner in their home, along w/ the aid of neighbors
and others in the community. The father had a legal right to pick up his son
and bring him home, a right which was upheld by federal judges here and by
the Dept. of Justice. The uncle and the others were holding Elian in their
home unlawfully and they are lucky they weren't prosecuted by the state for
their criminal defiance of a court order. If anyone did any "brainwashing"
it was that crazy uncle and cousin, when they had Elian make that ludicrous
videotape in which the boy parroted back that he wants to stay in the US and
have his father move there. It's despicable the uncle and his kin would mess
with a little boy's mind that way and get him to make that staged speech on
camera. They ought to be horse-whipped for it.
I have no doubt in my mind that Elian was speaking his own mind when he made
the recent tape saying how happy he is to be w/ his father. Elian loved his
father and had a close relationship w/ him before his mother got a wild hair
up her butt to float off in the ocean in that rickety raft w/ a defenseless
child w/ no say in the matter. I'm sure ALL the events that transpired from
the moment he was put in that raft until he was back in his father's arms
terrified, traumatized and confused the poor little boy terribly. I can only
imagine the relief and comfort the child felt when, after all the craziness
he had survived, he was face to face w/ his father again, being hugged and
kissed and comforted by him...and then returning home by safe, conventional
transport to familiar surroundings and people again. I have no doubt it was
the happiest moment in his life. It was the only normal and non-pathological
thing that had happened to him in months.
It may come as a total shock to you, but not everyone in Cuba is unhappy to
be there, and not everyone has a horrible, miserable life w/ their rights
being violated left and right and being bullied by the gov't. night and day.
There are a good many Cubans, I'd wager, that have perfectly normal,
comfortable lives and have no problem w/ the gov't. and live lives pretty
much like you and me. They work, they eat, they sleep, they have families
and homes and friends and things they like to do in their free time. They
don't have the police or Castro's military coming to their doors to beat
them up, or arrest them illegally and throw them in a hole where they're
tortured and then taken out and shot. IOW, they live pretty much ordinary
lives, not much different from yours or mine.
Elian's father had a decent job and was making a reasonably good living in
Cuba at the time of Elian's parental abduction. There's no reason to think
the boy isn't enjoying a comfortable, ordinary middle-class existence, in
the care of a loving, biological father he's known from birth, which is
where he should be.
There are plenty of folks living right here in the glorious "free" US whose
lives are total shit, and will always be shit, w/ no hope of anything ever
changing. I bet if you asked them if they could choose between staying in
the US where they are "free" but will always be impoverished and suffer
bigotry and have a 70% chance of dying or going to prison before age 25, and
they never have any hope of anything ever being different, or they could
have a peaceful, middle class life but they'd have to put up w/ living under
Castro, I bet a whole lot of them would vote to take their chances w/
Castro.
I find it utterly stupefying that there's anyone out there who thinks Elian
Gonzales belongs anywhere but w/ his father, in their homeland, which is
where the father chooses to be.
NS
(add sbc before global to email)
Wild Monkshood
EnEss wrote:
Yes, I could <snip> a bit of your post in order to reply, but I won't.
This was a very well thought out post and I agree absolutely. The only
questions that needed to be asked, putting aside all the BS, was 1) Does
he have a living parent? and 2) Does said Parent want him and will be
able to care for him?. All other issues in this case should have been
irrelevant. In the end, decency and propriety won out. A wonderful, if
unlikely, conclusion.
Wild Monkshood
Poe
GOOD QUESTION!!!! I personally refuse to purchase anything from China
but the US generally looks the other way.
{krp}
"Wild Monkshood" <wild_mo...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:DZUae.124863$vK6....@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
>> First off, the Miami people weren't his grandparents. They were his
>> mother's uncle and a cousin whom he had never met. Second, he wasn't
>> kidnapped. His father had legal custody and the father had a legal right
>> to reclaim his son and return home w/ him. In reality, Elian's birth
>> mother kidnapped Elian, in that she took him out of the country w/o the
>> boy's father's consent or knowledge, subjecting all of them to extreme
>> danger. If the father had taken him that way, I would say the same thing.
>> The father had been intricately involved in his son's life from the day
>> of his birth and had a right to maintain that relationship. The mother's
>> actions not only deprived Mr. Gonzales of that right, and deprived Elian
>> of the right to that relationship w/ his father, but she put them all in
>> danger by taking such reckless action. Her imprudence and rashness cost
>> Elian his mother. That was a terrible thing to do the boy. I'm sure it
>> has caused Elian considerable trauma and grief.
(They had the cuban form of JOINT Custody) Most of the rest of what he is
saying is essentially correct. Both parents were MINOR Communist party
officials in Cardenas, a small town on the coast east of Havana. It appears
from stories that the mother and her lover had this smuggling business on
the side and made a pretty good living at it. (By Cuban standards.)
>> Third, the uncle and cousin aided and abetted the kidnapping by keeping
>> Elian essentially a prisoner in their home, along w/ the aid of neighbors
>> and others in the community. The father had a legal right to pick up his
>> son and bring him home, a right which was upheld by federal judges here
>> and by the Dept. of Justice. The uncle and the others were holding Elian
>> in their home unlawfully and they are lucky they weren't prosecuted by
>> the state for their criminal defiance of a court order. If anyone did any
>> "brainwashing" it was that crazy uncle and cousin, when they had Elian
>> make that ludicrous videotape in which the boy parroted back that he
>> wants to stay in the US and have his father move there. It's despicable
>> the uncle and his kin would mess with a little boy's mind that way and
>> get him to make that staged speech on camera. They ought to be
>> horse-whipped for it.
The cousin (Marisleysis) was/is a raving nut case. Cute, but nutty as
they come.
>> I have no doubt in my mind that Elian was speaking his own mind when he
>> made the recent tape saying how happy he is to be w/ his father. Elian
>> loved his father and had a close relationship w/ him before his mother
>> got a wild hair up her butt to float off in the ocean in that rickety
>> raft w/ a defenseless child w/ no say in the matter. I'm sure ALL the
>> events that transpired from the moment he was put in that raft until he
>> was back in his father's arms terrified, traumatized and confused the
>> poor little boy terribly. I can only imagine the relief and comfort the
>> child felt when, after all the craziness he had survived, he was face to
>> face w/ his father again, being hugged and kissed and comforted by
>> him...and then returning home by safe, conventional transport to familiar
>> surroundings and people again. I have no doubt it was the happiest moment
>> in his life. It was the only normal and non-pathological thing that had
>> happened to him in months.
ELian was indeed a daddy's boy. Most Cuban boys are. Most Cuban dads are
extremely devoted to their children.
>> It may come as a total shock to you, but not everyone in Cuba is unhappy
>> to be there, and not everyone has a horrible, miserable life w/ their
>> rights being violated left and right and being bullied by the gov't.
>> night and day. There are a good many Cubans, I'd wager, that have
>> perfectly normal, comfortable lives and have no problem w/ the gov't. and
>> live lives pretty much like you and me. They work, they eat, they sleep,
>> they have families and homes and friends and things they like to do in
>> their free time. They don't have the police or Castro's military coming
>> to their doors to beat them up, or arrest them illegally and throw them
>> in a hole where they're tortured and then taken out and shot. IOW, they
>> live pretty much ordinary lives, not much different from yours or mine.
Having been to Cuba several times (LEGALLY) in the past few years I can
tell you that the Cuban people are great. But you are wrtong on how they
feel. Even the most strong supporters of the Castro government would leave
in a heartbeat if they could. Very few people in Cuba have "normal" much
less "comfortable" lives. How can one be comfortable when most days you are
lucky to have 4 hours of electricity? That barely cools off a refrigerator
from damn hot to very warm. SO you might imagine that your food (when you
can get it) has lots of lively little critters all over it. In fact botulism
is probably the most nutritious thing in the Cuban diet. An individual in
Cuba can get milk (less than 1% made from powdered milk with polluted water)
until age 7. No meat. You do get 5 pounds of rice per person per month.
Comfortable? Not on your life.
No cops coming to the door? Like most Americans we are here confronted
by ignorance. Americans don't know what the CDR is. (Committee for the
Defense of the Revolution) let's say sort of a neighborhood watch on
steroids. The CDR watches EVERYTHING you do. It reports to the "State
Security" (Secret Police) it also has the final say on promotions on the
jobs. ALL jobs. Or even keeping your job. They determine your housing even
IF you have any. They control your food rations. And YES, they DO have the
police coming to the door if the CDR reports you.
Educate yourself go to www.therealcuba.com
>> Elian's father had a decent job and was making a reasonably good living
>> in Cuba at the time of Elian's parental abduction. There's no reason to
>> think the boy isn't enjoying a comfortable, ordinary middle-class
>> existence, in the care of a loving, biological father he's known from
>> birth, which is where he should be.
He had a job. He has a better one now and is in the national assembly.
The claim of a "comfortable middle class existence" is an expression of
world class ignorance. Like I said, my wife is from Cuba, I have family all
over the island. (I also have a son in law who is Cuban) I have been there
several times in recent years. Nice opinions, too bad they are a mixture of
reality and utter bullshit.
>> There are plenty of folks living right here in the glorious "free" US
>> whose lives are total shit, and will always be shit, w/ no hope of
>> anything ever changing. I bet if you asked them if they could choose
>> between staying in the US where they are "free" but will always be
>> impoverished and suffer bigotry and have a 70% chance of dying or going
>> to prison before age 25, and they never have any hope of anything ever
>> being different, or they could have a peaceful, middle class life but
>> they'd have to put up w/ living under Castro, I bet a whole lot of them
>> would vote to take their chances w/ Castro.
Given 15 days under Castro they would take the US ANY day! For example
in the US their kids get milk - WHOLE nutritious milk. The average person ON
WELFARE in America has more calories at ONE meal than the "MIDDLE CLASS" in
Cuba has in a week! My wife couldn't trust the water here at first because
it was "THE WRONG COLOR!" (Clear)
>> I find it utterly stupefying that there's anyone out there who thinks
>> Elian Gonzales belongs anywhere but w/ his father, in their homeland,
>> which is where the father chooses to be.
He indeed belongs with his dad. As bad as things are in Cuba, you can
get along longer without food than you can without love.
> Yes, I could <snip> a bit of your post in order to reply, but I won't.
> This was a very well thought out post and I agree absolutely. The only
> questions that needed to be asked, putting aside all the BS, was 1) Does
> he have a living parent? and 2) Does said Parent want him and will be able
> to care for him?. All other issues in this case should have been
> irrelevant. In the end, decency and propriety won out. A wonderful, if
> unlikely, conclusion.
In the end they were irrelevant. What I find amazing is ENESS' level of
ignorance in what life is like in Cuba. Where the top salary is under $40 a
month, where the average folks make $ 4 a month. My wife was a court
provincial magistrate and only earned $25 a month.In half the country there
is almost NO potable water. In Cuba electricity on a good day MAY run 8
hours, most days 4 hours, and sometimes no electricity for several days.
Food is rationed in Cuba. Try living on 5 pounds of rice in a MONTH! With
very little on top of that. Maybe 5 pounds of black beans to go with that
rice for a month.
goldenm...@yahoo.com
it breaks my heart that he
was forced back to Cuba.
GM
G W Shrub
"Wild Monkshood" <wild_mo...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:DZUae.124863$vK6....@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
> Yes, I could <snip> a bit of your post in order to reply, but I won't.
> This was a very well thought out post and I agree absolutely. The only
> questions that needed to be asked, putting aside all the BS, was 1) Does
> he have a living parent? and 2) Does said Parent want him and will be
> able to care for him?. All other issues in this case should have been
> irrelevant. In the end, decency and propriety won out. A wonderful, if
> unlikely, conclusion.
There is one more thing worth adding. A Middle Eastern (Syrian?) man
kidnapped the two children he had with his American wife and took them to
Syria where efforts to recover them were blocked. He took a vacation to Cuba
with the children and his wife became aware of this. She approached Castro
directly, and partly due to the return of Elian he had the two children
apprehended and returned to her and the husband had his ass thrown in
prison.
So the US got a twofer.
--
GW
EnEss
"{krp} wrote:
> In the end they were irrelevant. What I find amazing is ENESS' level of
> ignorance in what life is like in Cuba.
You know, you can just BUGGAR off.
Just because you may have a FEW relatives THROUGH MARRIAGE from CUBA doesn't
make you an EXPERT. I know PLENTY about CUBA. Though I've never been there,
I've READ A LOT about CUBA and I do know a few people who HAVE been there,
to LIVE and to STUDY, and I've heard their stories on what they LEARNED
while there.
Yes, there are a lot of POOR people there (as there are in the US), and
there are frequent power outages and many SHORTAGES of things. SOME Cubans
are very unfortunate and don't have enough to EAT and GO w/o BASICS. But the
same can be said of MILLIONS of people living in the good ol' US of A! There
are also a great many people in CUBA who have professional jobs and make a
DECENT living. MOST don't live in LUXURY (as so many in the US do), but
there are a good many who have COMFORTABLE homes and ENOUGH to eat. My
understanding is that Mr. Gonzales was one such person. There are Cubans who
would NOT CHOOSE to leave Cuba given the choice. If everyone in Cuba would
leave in a HEARTBEAT, as you suggest, why then did Elian's father not leave
when he had the chance? His feet were on US SOIL and he could've stayed if
he wanted to...he was even offered $1 million to stay by some right-wing
nutjob... and he took his son and boarded that plane back HOME. Why did he
do that? Because he was NOT UNHAPPY IN CUBA!!! HE LIKED HIS LIFE THERE!!
I'm sure Mr. Gonzales can't be the only one who feels that way. And all I
said is that not everyone has the police coming to the door every day to
carry off family members. I NEVER said that it NEVER happens. There are
PLENTY of CUBANS who go about their normal business EVERY DAY w/ no
INTERFERENCE from Castro's police. So once again, as you've done so many
times in the past, you correct me on something on which I'm not wrong. You,
as usual, simply did NOT read my text properly. This seems to be a real
PROBLEM for you.
ANOTHER THING: when a parent has JOINT CUSTODY and one of the 2 parents
DIES, the surviving PARENT then automatically has SOLE CUSTODY, just for
your edification. So it was TOTALLY CORRECT when I said Elian's father had
CUSTODY of his son when Elian was being held illegally by distant relatives
who were total STRANGERS to him when he MET THEM.
Why don't you EDUCATE YOURSELF??!!??
And for your FURTHER edification, it's BULLSHIT that a person can LIVE
LONGER WITHOUT FOOD THAN WITHOUT LOVE!! What TRIPE!!
If someone told me I could choose between going 3 months w/o food but I'd
have all my loved ones around me every day to hug and kiss me, or I could be
separated from my loved ones for 3 months, but would have enough to eat
every day, I would CHOOSE the LATTER because I'm interested in LIVING!! And
I know you'd do the SAME, given the same choice. As much as I would miss and
long for my FAMILY and CLOSE FRIENDS being separated from them for FEW
MONTHS, I think I could stand it somehow over STARVING TO DEATH!!!
The point of Elian Gonzales' story is not that he needed his father over
food. There was NO DANGER EVER of Elian starving in Cuba. His father was not
among the WORST IMPOVERISHED of CUBA. He made a DECENT WAGE and could
provide for ELIAN adequately. The point of the story IS, the father had
LEGAL CUSTODY, he had a relationship w/ his child from BIRTH, he had NOT
CONSENTED to giving up his parental rights, the crazy uncle and cousin DID
NOT HAVE CUSTODY and had no LEGAL STANDING to seek custody, the boy was NOT
UP FOR ADOPTION, and though he was motherless, he was NOT AN ORPHAN!! And
Elian loves his father and WANTED and NEEDED to be w/ him again. The uncle
and cousin had absolutely NO RIGHT to hold Elian in their home, refusing to
surrender him, and the local COMMUNITY acted immorally and ILLEGALLY by
aiding and abetting this CRIME.
FURTHERMORE, THE USA GOV'T. HAS NO RIGHT TO ENABLE CRIMINALS TO GAIN ILLEGAL
CUSTODY OF A CHILD AND TO AID AND ABET A KIDNAPPING.
This is the REAL crux of the matter...not your MEANINGLESS and sentimental
CLICHE about people going longer w/o food than LOVE.
And LAST...I'm a SHE NOT A HE!!
And see, I wrote my whole post in your nutjob style of upper casing random
words for no particular reason at all, but you probably don't see how STUPID
and PSYCHOTIC it looks, nor how difficult it is to read, because you think
this is the proper way to post.
You should take your brain out for a good hosing off before you get on
usenet and insult people. You have a damn site of nerve calling someone else
ignorant.
scooter34
In AMERICA, we allegedly prize the right to live our lives free of
government interference. If an American citizen fled to another
country, let's say IRAQ, with a child, and died along the way, would
you want her Iraqi COUSINS to determine that it's better that the child
STAY in Iraq, rather than return to America with her father? Of course
not!
Cuba may not be PARADISE, but, quite frankly, nowhere is. Elian
deserved to be raised by a biological parent who loved him. What
ARROGANCE it takes to determine that our country is so much better that
it overcomes ripping a child away from everything and everyone he's
ever known!
scooter34
(Who thinks NS is peachy, and the random CAPITALIZATION thing to be
WEARYING)
EnEss
What a ludicrous and ill-informed thing to say.
If any "forcing" was done, it was done by the crazy great-uncle and his
accomplices (which include the Cuban community in Miami and the Miami PD)
who "forced" Elian Gonzales to stay in his home for months w/o the legal
right to do so. His actions, and those of his accomplishes, deprived little
Elian of the love and comfort and companionship of his loving, concerned
father, at a time it was needed most, while also denying the father the same
rights to his child.
When a father picks up his child from where the child has been detained
illegally, or from where he is being held until the rightful parent can get
him, that is only the father exercising his legal rights and his parental
responsibility. That is the natural order of things, not the dysfunctional
scene going on in the great-uncle's home in his Miami neighborhood for all
those months that poor, traumatized and confused child was held captive
there.
Why would a child who loves his father and who is loved and wanted by his
father being returned to that father "break your heart"? To my thinking, the
only heartbreaking thing in that situation would be if the US gov't. had
aided the uncle in holding Elian illegally and prevented the father from
reclaiming his own child, whom he had a legal and moral right to reclaim.
Had that occurred, that would've been a crime, a travesty and a tragedy.
It boggles my mind to see there are still people who don't get that very
basic and simple concept.
Kris Baker
"EnEss" <star...@global.net> wrote in message
news:o39be.951$Ne7...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
Applause!
Every time I heard "Elian's American relatives" I thought of "all those
creepy cousins you really don't know and who are adults....not
close family."
Keeping a child away from his father was wrong.
If this had been a little Mexican boy, rather than a Cuban, the
same people would have been calling him epithets and
pushing him out of the US.
Kris
ronniecat
promised to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth
but instead wrote:
>
>"{krp} wrote:
>> In the end they were irrelevant. What I find amazing is ENESS' level of
>> ignorance in what life is like in Cuba.
>
>You know, you can just BUGGAR off.
>
>Just because you may have a FEW relatives THROUGH MARRIAGE from CUBA doesn't
>make you an EXPERT.
As a Canadian, I just find it hysterically funny that every time
Americans shoot their mouths off about life in Cuba, they're guessing,
because they are not free to travel there.
As in, their government won't allow them.
The irony meter goes off the scale.
ronnie
EnEss
> Let me CHIME in here, on behalf of that GUY NS.
LOL
Aaaawwww. Thanks, Scoot. Count me in as a member of your fan club too.
Even though krp seems to agree with the essence of our views on where Elian
belongs, I don't appreciate being called ignorant or being corrected on
something about which I'm not wrong. This happens frequently w/ krp. We
agree in principle, but I get slammed by him for his misinterpretation of my
comments, or because he thinks I'm wrong when I'm not.
And yeah, I too am weary of that weird upper casing thing he does.
Phoenix
kris....@prodigyy.net says...
And criticizing the Mexican father for not picking his kid up fast
enough.
bel
>
>
>
Anne W.
>Why would a child who loves his father and who is loved and wanted by his
>father being returned to that father "break your heart"? To my thinking, the
>only heartbreaking thing in that situation would be if the US gov't. had
>aided the uncle in holding Elian illegally and prevented the father from
>reclaiming his own child, whom he had a legal and moral right to reclaim.
>Had that occurred, that would've been a crime, a travesty and a tragedy.
>
>It boggles my mind to see there are still people who don't get that very
>basic and simple concept.
I'm with you (and I love your posts, BTW).
proudmari
Re: !!!!!Re: Elian Gonzalez thanks America
Group: alt.true-crime Date: Mon, Apr 25, 2005, 7:18pm (PDT+7) From:
avian...@yahoo.com (Phoenix)
"Keeping a child away from his father was wrong.
If this had been a little Mexican boy, rather than a Cuban, the same
people would have been calling him epithets and pushing him out of the
US."
Kris
"And criticizing the Mexican father for not picking his kid up fast
enough."
bel
And blaming the WHOLE thing on the dead mother for thinking she could
swim across a _river_ in the first place!
proudmari
greg...@yahoo.com
For what? Janet Reno's commando raid on his cousin's house? Having an
MP5 put to his face? Being sent back to one of the two old-school
Stalinist regimes still left in the world?
Yeah, I'm sure he loves us.
[...]
{krp}
> Even though krp seems to agree with the essence of our views on where
> Elian belongs, I don't appreciate being called ignorant or being corrected
> on something about which I'm not wrong. This happens frequently w/ krp. We
> agree in principle, but I get slammed by him for his misinterpretation of
> my comments, or because he thinks I'm wrong when I'm not.
You were not merely WRONG you were FULL OF SHIT with respect to Cuba.
How many times have YOU been there? Your comments about life IN Cuba are
TOTALLY ALL WET! I have been there recently My wife just finally came here
form Cuba a few months ago. I have family all over the island. Did you
visit that website I provided?
{krp}
"ronniecat" <ronn...@mycollar.ronniecat.com> wrote in message
news:e8bq61tch0sup8fh6...@4ax.com...
>>"{krp} wrote:
>>> In the end they were irrelevant. What I find amazing is ENESS' level
>>> of
>>> ignorance in what life is like in Cuba.
>>You know, you can just BUGGAR off.
>>Just because you may have a FEW relatives THROUGH MARRIAGE from CUBA
>>doesn't
>>make you an EXPERT.
Few? Nobody has a "FEW" relatives in Cuba. That too expresses IGNORANCE
of Cuba. (I am not the one here claiming to be an EXPERT, but I know MORE
than people who have never been there or who have only went there as a
TOURIST! (I have NEVER gone as a TOURIST!) There is a clue there that I am
sure you two will NEVER get! I have relatives in only a FEW cities in Cuba.
Havana, Holguin, Las Tunas, Camaguey, and Santiago to name just a few.
> As a Canadian, I just find it hysterically funny that every time
> Americans shoot their mouths off about life in Cuba, they're guessing,
> because they are not free to travel there.
Oh I just LOVE Canadian "EXPERTISE" on Cuba.... LOVE IT! I can travel
to Cuba. LEGALLY! And HAVE. Most Americans cannot travel to Cuba AS
TOURISTS! Americans can legally travel to Cuba for several other reasons.
Including to visit family.
> As in, their government won't allow them.
` I knolw and if anyone wants to know about CUBA just ask a CANADIAN who
has stayed at a RESORT hotel a VERADERO. Thay kn ow EVERYTHING there is to
know about Cuba. ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING! Cubans don't know SHIT about Cuba.
ONLY Canadians do!
> The irony meter goes off the scale.
Oh does it now? Hmmm I have been to Cuba several times in recent years,
and YOU? Also *I* did not stay in resort hotels. My son in law is Cuban. My
wife just came here from Cuba. (WE were married IN Cuba.) Not TELL ME ALL
ABOUT CUBA! ALL ABOUT IT since YOU know and because I am an American I
cannot POSSIBLY know ONLY Canadians know!
TRY visiting www.therealcuba.com and test what you THINK you know about
Cuba against the REALITY shown there, I mean in all your EXPERTISE!
Then tell me what Elian told you the last time YOU met with him!
SO PLEASE go back to lecturing me about life in Cuba. I find it
interesting. My relatives fall off their chairs laughing to clowns like you
two.
ags...@yahoo.com
I thank America for getting rid of that illegal alien. Now if we can
only get rid of the 2 million we have living in my area.
Regards...
EnEss
> >"EnEss" wrote:
>>Why would a child who loves his father and who is loved and wanted by his
>>father being returned to that father "break your heart"? To my thinking,
>>the
>>only heartbreaking thing in that situation would be if the US gov't. had
>>aided the uncle in holding Elian illegally and prevented the father from
>>reclaiming his own child, whom he had a legal and moral right to reclaim.
>>Had that occurred, that would've been a crime, a travesty and a tragedy.
>>
>>It boggles my mind to see there are still people who don't get that very
>>basic and simple concept.
> I'm with you (and I love your posts, BTW).
Thanks, Anne! That's very nice...I appreciate it.
I still get mad when I think of how long this child and father were kept
apart, and when I consider there's anyone who thinks this was right. I
remember reading things like people saying Elian would probably be tortured
when he returned to Cuba...some even suggested he would be tortured by Fidel
Castro personally. When I heard this kind of BS, I could hardly contain
myself. I'm no fan of Castro, but even I don't think for one second that
Castro (or anyone else in Cuba) would think it necessary or acceptable to
torture a 6 y.o who was held captive for months by distant relatives in
another country, while his father fought to get him back.
People are so nuts. It still amazes me at times.
{krp}
> Just because you may have a FEW relatives THROUGH MARRIAGE from CUBA
> doesn't make you an EXPERT. I know PLENTY about CUBA. Though I've never
> been there, I've READ A LOT about CUBA and I do know a few people who HAVE
> been there, to LIVE and to STUDY, and I've heard their stories on what
> they LEARNED while there.
From the things you said about life in Cuba ( and I - -HAVE been there
more than once) and I have MORE than "a few relatives" there, I say you
really don't know jack shit about Cuba. I have LIVED in Cuba for short
periods of time.
> Yes, there are a lot of POOR people there (as there are in the US), and
> there are frequent power outages and many SHORTAGES of things. SOME Cubans
> are very unfortunate and don't have enough to EAT and GO w/o BASICS.
Not "SOME" you clown "ALMOST ALL!" Again your IGNORANCE is staggering.
The low wage range for "peasant farmers" and laborers is $4.00 a month. My
brother in law, as an example is an Architect he makes a WHOPPING $28.00 a
month. (What you'd call Cuba's middle class). You are CLUELESS about how
food is rationed there.You are cluless what the power outages mean when you
may get only a few hours a day of electricity.
>But the > same can be said of MILLIONS of people living in the good ol' US
>of A!
NO - quite lieterally it CANNOT! You have ZERO clue as to what you
are talking about. As bad as things get in America, even the poorest
children can get milk, nutritious WHOLE milk. You CANNOT get that as a Cuban
over the age of 7. PERIOD!
>There are also a great many people in CUBA who have professional jobs and
>make a DECENT living.
Again your TOTAL IGNORANCE.... The TOP WAGE in Cuba is under $40 a month
for certain high ranking military officers.
>MOST don't live in LUXURY (as so many in the US do), but there are a good
>many who have COMFORTABLE homes and ENOUGH to eat.
Fidel Castro, Raul Castro, and the others in Havana running things.
Alarcon. Get away from that and your FOS guy.
>My understanding is that Mr. Gonzales was one such person.
Juan Miguel is now fortunate compared to other Cubans. Elian is a "HERO
OF THE REVOLUTION" and as such has it pretty good by contrast with other
Cubans. But not everyone is Juan Miguel or Elian Gonzalez. Your notions of
life in Cuba are VERY distorted.
> There are Cubans who would NOT CHOOSE to leave Cuba given the choice. If
> everyone in Cuba would leave in a HEARTBEAT, as you suggest, why then did
> Elian's father not leave when he had the chance?
Why? Do you know what the CDR is? Did you notice that the grandmothers
came alone? Then they went back and Juan Miguel and his wife came... Their
child remained behind. Tell you ANYTHING? Some people in Cuba are still
loyal, they are called "Fidelistas." People who refuse to admit that the
emperor is naked.
> His feet were on US SOIL and he could've stayed if he wanted to...
Yes HE and his wife were here. Others were NOT.
> he was even offered $1 million to stay by some right-wing nutjob... and
> he took his son and boarded that plane back HOME. Why did he do that?
> Because he was NOT UNHAPPY IN CUBA!!! HE LIKED HIS LIFE THERE!!
He also has the world by the ass now in Cuba.And the entire family has
it made.
> I'm sure Mr. Gonzales can't be the only one who feels that way. And all I
> said is that not everyone has the police coming to the door every day to
> carry off family members. I NEVER said that it NEVER happens. There are
> PLENTY of CUBANS who go about their normal business EVERY DAY w/ no
> INTERFERENCE from Castro's police. So once again, as you've done so many
> times in the past, you correct me on something on which I'm not wrong.
> You, as usual, simply did NOT read my text properly. This seems to be a
> real PROBLEM for you.
You are CLUELESS about Cuba. You have NO idea what the CDR is.
(Committee for the Defense of the Revolution.) You have NO clue as to how it
impacts daily life in Cuba.
You have NO idea how "State Security" works or a half dozen other agencies
in Cuba. You know there are lots of Cubans who have been here in America for
30 or 40 years. THEY have NO idea of what life is like in Cuba today. You
don't know what "normal business" is like in Cuba. Did you know that Cubans
are not allowed in tourist areas? Do you know how easy it is to be jailed in
Cuba? My other brother in law is a VERY famous artist in Cuba, yet he has
been "detained" (jailed) 6 times because somebody TOUGHT his art was
"Counter Revolutionary." Ot doesn't have to BE counter revolutionary - just
that somebody THINKS it is.
> ANOTHER THING: when a parent has JOINT CUSTODY and one of the 2 parents
> DIES, the surviving PARENT then automatically has SOLE CUSTODY, just for
> your edification. So it was TOTALLY CORRECT when I said Elian's father had
> CUSTODY of his son when Elian was being held illegally by distant
> relatives who were total STRANGERS to him when he MET THEM.
Yeah right, I have NO quarrel that Juan Miguel REALLY loves his son. It
helps to know the Cuban FAMILY structure. The culture. You said that the
mother "kidnapped" Elian. Not true. Also it appears she had NO intent to
stay here. Smuggling people to the US was an "enterprise" apparently that
she and her lover had.
> Why don't you EDUCATE YOURSELF??!!??
I may not know everything about Cuba but I know a pile more than you.
> If someone told me I could choose between going 3 months w/o food but I'd
> have all my loved ones around me every day to hug and kiss me, or I could
> be separated from my loved ones for 3 months, but would have enough to eat
> every day, I would CHOOSE the LATTER because I'm interested in LIVING!!
> And I know you'd do the SAME, given the same choice. As much as I would
> miss and long for my FAMILY and CLOSE FRIENDS being separated from them
> for FEW MONTHS, I think I could stand it somehow over STARVING TO DEATH!!!
But YOU are NOT Cuban!
> The point of Elian Gonzales' story is not that he needed his father over
> food. There was NO DANGER EVER of Elian starving in Cuba.
Well kids ARE starving in Cuba. Most kids by Elian's age suffer from the
beginning of osteoporosis and several other ailments. But don't let FACTS
bother you.
> His father was not > among the WORST IMPOVERISHED of CUBA. He made a
> DECENT WAGE and could provide for ELIAN adequately.
WHat EXACTLY was Juan Miguel's "WAGE" when Elian left? I'll allow you a
100 peso a month leeway.
> The point of the story IS, the father had LEGAL CUSTODY, he had a
> relationship w/ his child from BIRTH, he had NOT CONSENTED to giving up
> his parental rights, the crazy uncle and cousin DID NOT HAVE CUSTODY and
> had no LEGAL STANDING to seek custody, the boy was NOT UP FOR ADOPTION,
> and though he was motherless, he was NOT AN ORPHAN!!
His father had Joint Custody - he was legally entitled as the sole
surviving parent to have his son. He GOT his son. What's the issue?
> And Elian loves his father and WANTED and NEEDED to be w/ him again.
Elian is a fairly typical Cuban boy. They generally are VERY bonded. It
is not unsual to see a Cuban dad hug his son, and even kiss him on the lips.
The Cuban family is THE CENTER OF THEIR UNIVERSE.
> The uncle and cousin had absolutely NO RIGHT to hold Elian in their home,
> refusing to surrender him, and the local COMMUNITY acted immorally and
> ILLEGALLY by aiding and abetting this CRIME.
I don't know about "crime" that's a harsh term. But the "uncle" (Tio)
was the mother's uncle, Elian's grand uncle.
> FURTHERMORE, THE USA GOV'T. HAS NO RIGHT TO ENABLE CRIMINALS TO GAIN
> ILLEGAL CUSTODY OF A CHILD AND TO AID AND ABET A KIDNAPPING.
They didn't. The government sent the boy home.
> This is the REAL crux of the matter...not your MEANINGLESS and sentimental
> CLICHE about people going longer w/o food than LOVE.
> And LAST...I'm a SHE NOT A HE!!
He or she you are equally full of shit. You know NOTHING of the Cuban
culture or the reality of life in Cuba. I see you REFUSE to examine the
website I offered you to show you.
So sad. www.therealcuba.com
> And see, I wrote my whole post in your nutjob style of upper casing random
> words for no particular reason at all, but you probably don't see how
> STUPID and PSYCHOTIC it looks, nor how difficult it is to read, because
> you think this is the proper way to post.
It would look LESS so if usenet handled HTML text better.
> You should take your brain out for a good hosing off before you get on
> usenet and insult people. You have a damn site of nerve calling someone
> else ignorant.
You ARE ignorant. Tell me what I have said that is wrong AFTER you visit
that website. Be prepared to either LIE your ass off or apologize.
'
EnEss
> For what? Janet Reno's commando raid on his cousin's house? Having an
> MP5 put to his face? Being sent back to one of the two old-school
> Stalinist regimes still left in the world?
>
> Yeah, I'm sure he loves us.
>
> [...]
Here's another one who needs an education.
The only reason the uncle's house had to be raided and that Elian had to be
removed from there under the most traumatic circumstances imaginable is the
uncle's doing, and the doing of all those who encircled his home for weeks
on end, including the police, making it impossible for officers from the
Justice Dept. to escort Mr. Gonzales there for a calm and safe pick of his
child. The uncle had no right to keep the boy there and was under a court
order to surrender him peacably to the father. He would not comply and was
being protected by the misguided people of Miami who believed it was better
to keep the child away from his father, permanently if necessary, than to
live under Castro.
The trauma of that raid and the way Elian was recovered was no doubt severe
for the poor child. But it was extremely short-lived, especially in
comparison to a full lifespan, and I still say it had to have been far less
traumatic for Elian than his trip over to the US in an unsafe boat which
capsized, resulting in the drowning deaths of Elian's mother and her male
companion, which Elian witnessed, and no telling how many hours the poor
thing clung to a life preserver, alone and afraid, before he was rescued. I
can only imagine how long he wept and wept, calling for help. Furthermore,
the trauma of the recovery from the house ended quickly w/ the child's
reunion w/ his father, which must've been tremendously comforting and the
happiest moment the child had had in months.
Additionally, how ever frightening the recovery from the house was, it would
have been far more traumatic for Elian had the gov't. been pussy-whipped by
mob rule and stood back passively while months, and maybe years passed w/
Elian separated from his father, being raised by those crazy Miami
relatives.
If that was my child in there that some whackos were holding hostage, I
would like to think my gov't would take any action necessary--even breaking
down doors and holding the captors at gunpoint, if necessary--to get my
child back to me. It was one time I truly was proud of Janet Reno for having
the guts and the moral courage to do the right thing under the most
undeserved criticism. It makes me sick to think she apologized for this,
ever. If this had happened w/ the present president in office and w/ that
jerk he has running the DOJ now, probably poor little Elian would've been
stuck w/ those lunatics in Miami forever. I shudder to think.
NS
(add sbc before global email)
` krp >
> <greg1199 wrote:
>> For what? Janet Reno's commando raid on his cousin's house? Having an
>> MP5 put to his face? Being sent back to one of the two old-school
>> Stalinist regimes still left in the world?
>>
>> Yeah, I'm sure he loves us.
>>
>> [...]
>
> Here's another one who needs an education.
And YOU will terll us ALL about Cuba from your VAST VAST VAST fund of
knowledge about it!
> The only reason the uncle's house had to be raided and that Elian had to
> be removed from there under the most traumatic circumstances imaginable is
> the uncle's doing, and the doing of all those who encircled his home for
> weeks on end, including the police, making it impossible for officers from
> the Justice Dept. to escort Mr. Gonzales there for a calm and safe pick of
> his child. The uncle had no right to keep the boy there and was under a
> court order to surrender him peacably to the father. He would not comply
> and was being protected by the misguided people of Miami who believed it
> was better to keep the child away from his father, permanently if
> necessary, than to live under Castro.
Actually IF you followed the case, the girl Marisleysis had FAR more to
do with it that Elian's Great Uncle. Was the Cuban comminity in Miami
"misguided" or passionate?
Again ypou have a HUGE mouth on a subject where you are functionally
illiterate.
> The trauma of that raid and the way Elian was recovered was no doubt
> severe for the poor child. But it was extremely short-lived, especially in
> comparison to a full lifespan, and I still say it had to have been far
> less traumatic for Elian than his trip over to the US in an unsafe boat
> which capsized, resulting in the drowning deaths of Elian's mother and her
> male companion, which Elian witnessed, and no telling how many hours the
> poor thing clung to a life preserver, alone and afraid, before he was
> rescued. I can only imagine how long he wept and wept, calling for help.
> Furthermore, the trauma of the recovery from the house ended quickly w/
> the child's reunion w/ his father, which must've been tremendously
> comforting and the happiest moment the child had had in months.
Boy you sure seem to KNOW details that NOBODY else knows. From all
reports Elian was unconscious or asleep when his mother drown. But you sure
love to PAINT in lots of details. I just LOVE how you speak for the child,
it is as if you spernt days talking to him and his father and family.
> Additionally, how ever frightening the recovery from the house was, it
> would have been far more traumatic for Elian had the gov't. been
> pussy-whipped by mob rule and stood back passively while months, and maybe
> years passed w/ Elian separated from his father, being raised by those
> crazy Miami relatives.
I greant you Marisleysis is a bit of a nut!
> If that was my child in there that some whackos were holding hostage, I
> would like to think my gov't would take any action necessary--even
> breaking down doors and holding the captors at gunpoint, if necessary--to
> get my child back to me. It was one time I truly was proud of Janet Reno
> for having the guts and the moral courage to do the right thing under the
> most undeserved criticism. It makes me sick to think she apologized for
> this, ever. If this had happened w/ the present president in office and w/
> that jerk he has running the DOJ now, probably poor little Elian would've
> been stuck w/ those lunatics in Miami forever. I shudder to think.
Reno should have sent the police in much earlier. However - none of this
cures your lack of knowledge of life in Cuba and your arrogant propensity to
claim that you know EVERYTHING yet never having been there. And again to
the Canadian - I *HAVE* been to Cuba. My "few" relatives by marriage...
Hmmm I don't know how you define "few" that may fit. At our wedding fiesta
we only had about 35 people, there were another 100 or so who could not
afford to make the trip but had been invited.
ronniecat
to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, but
instead wrote:
> Oh does it now? Hmmm I have been to Cuba several times in recent years,
>and YOU? Also *I* did not stay in resort hotels. My son in law is Cuban. My
>wife just came here from Cuba. (WE were married IN Cuba.) Not TELL ME ALL
>ABOUT CUBA! ALL ABOUT IT since YOU know and because I am an American I
>cannot POSSIBLY know ONLY Canadians know!
Ken, wipe your mouth. You're getting spittle all over the inside of my
monitor screen.
ronnie
--
return address altered. remove my collar to reply.
"Other cultures are not a failed attempt at being you."
http://www.hearingloss.blogspot.com * a weblog about deafness
Charlotte
There are Cubans who would NOT CHOOSE to leave Cuba given the choice. If
everyone in Cuba would leave in a HEARTBEAT, as you suggest, why then
did Elian's father not leave when he had the chance? His feet were on US
SOIL and he could've stayed if he wanted to...he was even offered $1
million to stay by some right-wing nutjob... and he took his son and
boarded that plane back HOME. Why did he do that? Because he was NOT
UNHAPPY IN CUBA!!! HE LIKED HIS LIFE THERE!!
Well, Mr. Gonzalez still had relatives in Cuba when he visited the U.S.
Among them was Elian's grandmother. Castro would not allow her out of
Cuba. This was leverage to make sure that the father would not stay in
the U.S. Even if he wanted to stay, I'm sure he took into account the
possibility that those left behind would be persecuted for that
decision.
The communist system is indefensible. People aren't allowed to explore
their full potential while someone like Castro dictates to them. It's
disgusting, and if you think otherwise, what the hell are you thnking?
greg...@yahoo.com
> <greg1199 wrote:
> > For what? Janet Reno's commando raid on his cousin's house?
Having an
> > MP5 put to his face? Being sent back to one of the two old-school
> > Stalinist regimes still left in the world?
> >
> > Yeah, I'm sure he loves us.
> >
> > [...]
>
> Here's another one who needs an education.
> order to surrender him peacably to the father. He would not comply
and was
> being protected by the misguided people of Miami who believed it was
better
> to keep the child away from his father, permanently if necessary,
than to
> live under Castro.
Now why would the Cuban exile community of Miami think that? Possibly
because they know more about Castro's Cuba than anyone else?
This is like saying, "Those misguided South Koreans thought it was
better to keep the child living with a crazy cousin than in a country
run by Kim Jong-Il." As much of a nut job as Marisleysis is, Castro
has her in spades.
> The trauma of that raid and the way Elian was recovered was no doubt
severe
> for the poor child. But it was extremely short-lived, especially in
> comparison to a full lifespan, and I still say it had to have been
far less
> traumatic for Elian than his trip over to the US in an unsafe boat
which
> capsized, resulting in the drowning deaths of Elian's mother and her
male
Why would Elian's mother subject him to that kind of danger? What
could motivate someone to do such a thing? Hunger, perhaps?
[...]
> the trauma of the recovery from the house ended quickly w/ the
child's
A guillotine falls quickly.
> reunion w/ his father, which must've been tremendously comforting and
the
> happiest moment the child had had in months.
You can't know that, and you also can't know that Elian's father
genuinely wanted to return his child to Cuba. No doubt he loved Elian,
but parents generally want what is best for their kids. Could his
father tell Castro that the child was better off in the US? Not unless
he wanted to disappear into one of Castro's dungeons, where Castro
would eventually turn him anyway. Ever read _1984_?
[...]
> If that was my child in there that some whackos were holding hostage,
I
Elian is currently being held hostage by one of the greatest whackos
the world has ever known.
[...]
> jerk he has running the DOJ now, probably poor little Elian would've
been
> stuck w/ those lunatics in Miami forever. I shudder to think.
Oh, the horror. He'd be going to school, freely expressing his opinion,
and eating PB&J sandwiches. Possibly from a Batman lunchbox!!
<horror> I can't go on.
Phoenix
>
> "EnEss" <star...@global.net> wrote in message
> news:tOhbe.690$6z3...@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
> > <greg1199 wrote:
> >> For what? Janet Reno's commando raid on his cousin's house? Having an
> >> MP5 put to his face? Being sent back to one of the two old-school
> >> Stalinist regimes still left in the world?
> >>
> >> Yeah, I'm sure he loves us.
> >>
> >> [...]
> >
> > Here's another one who needs an education.
>
> And YOU will terll us ALL about Cuba from your VAST VAST VAST fund of
> knowledge about it!
Fund of knowledge? Who's illiterate here?
>
>
> > The only reason the uncle's house had to be raided and that Elian had to
> > be removed from there under the most traumatic circumstances imaginable is
> > the uncle's doing, and the doing of all those who encircled his home for
> > weeks on end, including the police, making it impossible for officers from
> > the Justice Dept. to escort Mr. Gonzales there for a calm and safe pick of
> > his child. The uncle had no right to keep the boy there and was under a
> > court order to surrender him peacably to the father. He would not comply
> > and was being protected by the misguided people of Miami who believed it
> > was better to keep the child away from his father, permanently if
> > necessary, than to live under Castro.
>
> Actually IF you followed the case, the girl Marisleysis had FAR more to
> do with it that Elian's Great Uncle. Was the Cuban comminity in Miami
> "misguided" or passionate?
How about both. Or is it impossible to be both using kpr logic?
The Miami Cubanos will take any excuse, even use an orphaned boy, to
scream, cry and rend garments over Castro. Frankly, I have little
sympathy with this kind of mercenary passion, especially when children
are used as pawns.
The Florida Cubanos are Americans now. They aren't any different from
Mexicans who had their lands stolen by drug lords, or Jews who fled the
Russian pogroms. They aren't special in this country, no matter how
arrogantly they like to hold themselves above other US citizens -
especially any other Latino citizen.
> Again ypou have a HUGE mouth on a subject where you are functionally
> illiterate.
Functionally illiterate? Would you like the whole newsgroup to take a
vote on who exactly is illiterate? The wonderfully eloquent EnEss or
the pathetic little man who must use caps to get his mangled points
across?
>
> > The trauma of that raid and the way Elian was recovered was no doubt
> > severe for the poor child. But it was extremely short-lived, especially in
> > comparison to a full lifespan, and I still say it had to have been far
> > less traumatic for Elian than his trip over to the US in an unsafe boat
> > which capsized, resulting in the drowning deaths of Elian's mother and her
> > male companion, which Elian witnessed, and no telling how many hours the
> > poor thing clung to a life preserver, alone and afraid, before he was
> > rescued. I can only imagine how long he wept and wept, calling for help.
> > Furthermore, the trauma of the recovery from the house ended quickly w/
> > the child's reunion w/ his father, which must've been tremendously
> > comforting and the happiest moment the child had had in months.
>
> Boy you sure seem to KNOW details that NOBODY else knows. From all
> reports Elian was unconscious or asleep when his mother drown.
Which doesn't make a whole lot of sense, if one thinks about it. High
seas, inner tube, mother dying - yeah kids sleep through experiences
like that.
But you sure
> love to PAINT in lots of details. I just LOVE how you speak for the child,
> it is as if you spernt days talking to him and his father and family.
Well, nothing seems to inhibit you from speaking for every Cuban on the
whole damn island, not to mention the entire crazy Cubano community.
> > If that was my child in there that some whackos were holding hostage, I
> > would like to think my gov't would take any action necessary--even
> > breaking down doors and holding the captors at gunpoint, if necessary--to
> > get my child back to me. It was one time I truly was proud of Janet Reno
> > for having the guts and the moral courage to do the right thing under the
> > most undeserved criticism. It makes me sick to think she apologized for
> > this, ever. If this had happened w/ the present president in office and w/
> > that jerk he has running the DOJ now, probably poor little Elian would've
> > been stuck w/ those lunatics in Miami forever. I shudder to think.
>
> Reno should have sent the police in much earlier. However - none of this
> cures your lack of knowledge of life in Cuba and your arrogant propensity to
> claim that you know EVERYTHING yet never having been there.
EnEss NEVER (caps. Can you read that now?) stated she knew everything
about Cuba. NEVER (get it?) Reread what she wrote. She is making
assumptions on life in Cuba that are true for life anywhere, under any
regime, under all sorts of repression. The devil you know is almost
always preferable to the devil you don't know.
OTOH, YOU (caps) are claiming to know absolutely how every Cuban ever
feels about nearly everything because your wife (who I suspect is a
myth) is from there.
And again to
> the Canadian - I *HAVE* been to Cuba. My "few" relatives by marriage...
Oh, relatives by MARRIAGE. Does this mean that I can claim to be an
expert on my SO's home country because I've visited the place and met
his family?
Is that your criteria for expertise? For total knowledge?
bel
Phoenix
@webtv.net says...
> starword wrote:
> There are Cubans who would NOT CHOOSE to leave Cuba given the choice. If
> everyone in Cuba would leave in a HEARTBEAT, as you suggest, why then
> did Elian's father not leave when he had the chance? His feet were on US
> SOIL and he could've stayed if he wanted to...he was even offered $1
> million to stay by some right-wing nutjob... and he took his son and
> boarded that plane back HOME. Why did he do that? Because he was NOT
> UNHAPPY IN CUBA!!! HE LIKED HIS LIFE THERE!!
> ================================
> Well, Mr. Gonzalez still had relatives in Cuba when he visited the U.S.
> Among them was Elian's grandmother. Castro would not allow her out of
> Cuba. This was leverage to make sure that the father would not stay in
> the U.S. Even if he wanted to stay, I'm sure he took into account the
> possibility that those left behind would be persecuted for that
> decision.
That's not the issue. Elian belonged with his father, full stop.
>
> The communist system is indefensible. People aren't allowed to explore
> their full potential while someone like Castro dictates to them. It's
> disgusting, and if you think otherwise, what the hell are you thnking?
And capitalism does allow everyone to explore their full potential?
Jesus, I doubt Milton Freeman would agree with that, and he's the
capitalist grand poobah.
Don't drink the Koolaid. Free markets are repressive in their own ways
and are dependant on a slave class in order to consistently rise - not
to mention the complete destruction of the finite resources on planet
Earth.
I'm not a fan of communism. It's as puerile and idiotic as any other
religion. But capitalism ain't gravy either.
bel
>
>
Phoenix
greg...@yahoo.com says...
> EnEss wrote:
> > <greg1199 wrote:
> You can't know that, and you also can't know that Elian's father
> genuinely wanted to return his child to Cuba. No doubt he loved Elian,
> but parents generally want what is best for their kids. Could his
> father tell Castro that the child was better off in the US? Not unless
> he wanted to disappear into one of Castro's dungeons, where Castro
> would eventually turn him anyway. Ever read _1984_?
By your same logic, you can't know any of this. You have no more
intimacy with this situation than anyone else. You don't know the mind
of the father, and you are bordering on crazy if you think you can live
inside anyone else's head.
The child belongs with his parent. His parent lives in Cuba. That's
where the child belongs.
As far as the benefits of staying in Cuba, Elian's education is likely
to be better there. Say what you will about Communism, but it does make
for good schools, better than our own pathetic example of public
education. Most of my emigrant friends agree (and many are from
repressive countries) that they would love for their kids to be educated
back home and come to the US as adults.
>
> [...]
> > If that was my child in there that some whackos were holding hostage,
> I
>
> Elian is currently being held hostage by one of the greatest whackos
> the world has ever known.
Oh please. Worse that Ivan the Terrible? Nixon? Juanita of Spain?
Idi Amin? Duvalier?
And the very worst aren't whackos at all - Stalin, Mao, Kissenger,
Hitler, Pinochet, Torquemada...
>
> [...]
> > jerk he has running the DOJ now, probably poor little Elian would've
> been
> > stuck w/ those lunatics in Miami forever. I shudder to think.
>
> Oh, the horror. He'd be going to school, freely expressing his opinion,
> and eating PB&J sandwiches. Possibly from a Batman lunchbox!!
> <horror> I can't go on.
Is this your dreamy fantasy of US public education?
bel
>
>
` krp >
"Charlotte" <jgf...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:29764-426...@storefull-3337.bay.webtv.net...
> starword wrote:
> There are Cubans who would NOT CHOOSE to leave Cuba given the choice. If
> everyone in Cuba would leave in a HEARTBEAT, as you suggest, why then
> did Elian's father not leave when he had the chance? His feet were on US
> SOIL and he could've stayed if he wanted to...he was even offered $1
> million to stay by some right-wing nutjob... and he took his son and
> boarded that plane back HOME. Why did he do that? Because he was NOT
> UNHAPPY IN CUBA!!! HE LIKED HIS LIFE THERE!!
> ================================
> Well, Mr. Gonzalez still had relatives in Cuba when he visited the U.S.
> Among them was Elian's grandmother. Castro would not allow her out of
> Cuba. This was leverage to make sure that the father would not stay in
> the U.S. Even if he wanted to stay, I'm sure he took into account the
> possibility that those left behind would be persecuted for that
> decision.
Don't dignify those assholes with trying to tell them that Cuba is
anythign but a "WORKER'S PARADISE." Especially the arrogant Canadians. They
may have gone once, stayed in a resort hotel for a week being waited on hand
and foot and BELIEVE they know everything there is to know about Cuba. You
can't tell them ANY different.
> The communist system is indefensible. People aren't allowed to explore
> their full potential while someone like Castro dictates to them. It's
> disgusting, and if you think otherwise, what the hell are you thnking?
These spoiled brats really need to spend a month living AS a Cuban and
we'd see what smart asses they are when they get back!
` krp >
<greg...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1114525956....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> EnEss wrote:
>> Here's another one who needs an education. [...]
>> order to surrender him peacably to the father. He would not comply and
>> was
>> being protected by the misguided people of Miami who believed it was
>> better
>> to keep the child away from his father, permanently if necessary, than to
>> live under Castro.
> Now why would the Cuban exile community of Miami think that? Possibly
> because they know more about Castro's Cuba than anyone else?
If you want to know EVERYTHING about Cuba, just ask some CANADIAN who
went there once as a TOURIST! Damn they know EVERYTHING about it. MUCH MUCH
MUCH more than people who lived there 50 or 60 years. MUCH MORE! Just ask
them, they'll tell you.
> This is like saying, "Those misguided South Koreans thought it was
> better to keep the child living with a crazy cousin than in a country
> run by Kim Jong-Il." As much of a nut job as Marisleysis is, Castro
> has her in spades.
That's hard to do, she's dingy as hell, but you are right.
` krp >
"Phoenix" <avian...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1cd82fb16...@news-server.carolina.rr.com...
> The child belongs with his parent. His parent lives in Cuba. That's
> where the child belongs.
No argument on that point.
> As far as the benefits of staying in Cuba, Elian's education is likely
> to be better there. Say what you will about Communism, but it does make
> for good schools, better than our own pathetic example of public
> education. Most of my emigrant friends agree (and many are from
> repressive countries) that they would love for their kids to be educated
> back home and come to the US as adults.
And you "KNOW" this HOW? Did you know that a degree from a Cuban
University today is practically worthless outside Cuba? They just went
through a big flap with brazilians trained as doctors in Havana FAILING the
exams to get a medical license in Brazil. Care to name ANY Cuban degree
program that IS Internationally Accredited? Don't believe every bit of
propaganda you hear PRO or CON about Cuba.
` krp >
> > Here's another one who needs an education.
>>
>> And YOU will terll us ALL about Cuba from your VAST VAST VAST fund of
>> knowledge about it!
>
> Fund of knowledge? Who's illiterate here?
For a color image - you can look in the mirror.
>> > The only reason the uncle's house had to be raided and that Elian had
>> > to
>> > be removed from there under the most traumatic circumstances imaginable
>> > is
>> > the uncle's doing, and the doing of all those who encircled his home
>> > for
>> > weeks on end, including the police, making it impossible for officers
>> > from
>> > the Justice Dept. to escort Mr. Gonzales there for a calm and safe pick
>> > of
>> > his child. The uncle had no right to keep the boy there and was under a
>> > court order to surrender him peacably to the father. He would not
>> > comply
>> > and was being protected by the misguided people of Miami who believed
>> > it
>> > was better to keep the child away from his father, permanently if
>> > necessary, than to live under Castro.
>>
>> Actually IF you followed the case, the girl Marisleysis had FAR more
>> to
>> do with it that Elian's Great Uncle. Was the Cuban comminity in Miami
>> "misguided" or passionate?
> How about both. Or is it impossible to be both using kpr logic?
It isn't logic it's FACTS. The Great Uncle was pretty much a passenger
IF you followed the case. Here are a few clues for you.
1. I am IN Florida.
2. My wife is FROM Cuba.
3. I have BEEN to Cuba several times.
4. My son in law is Cuban.
5. I have family pretty much all over the island.
AND YOU?
> The Miami Cubanos will take any excuse, even use an orphaned boy, to
> scream, cry and rend garments over Castro. Frankly, I have little
> sympathy with this kind of mercenary passion, especially when children
> are used as pawns.
Again you KNOW this HOW? I know people face to face and YOU?
> The Florida Cubanos are Americans now. They aren't any different from
> Mexicans who had their lands stolen by drug lords, or Jews who fled the
> Russian pogroms. They aren't special in this country, no matter how
> arrogantly they like to hold themselves above other US citizens -
> especially any other Latino citizen.
Who says they are special? My wife is pretty special to me. I like the
Cuban part of my family.
>> Again you have a HUGE mouth on a subject where you are functionally
>> illiterate.
> Functionally illiterate? Would you like the whole newsgroup to take a
> vote on who exactly is illiterate? The wonderfully eloquent EnEss or
> the pathetic little man who must use caps to get his mangled points
> across?
The caps are for EMPHASIS because Usnet doesn't like HTML. You want to
vote on FACTS or personalities?
>> > The trauma of that raid and the way Elian was recovered was no doubt
>> > severe for the poor child. But it was extremely short-lived, especially
>> > in
>> > comparison to a full lifespan, and I still say it had to have been far
>> > less traumatic for Elian than his trip over to the US in an unsafe boat
>> > which capsized, resulting in the drowning deaths of Elian's mother and
>> > her
>> > male companion, which Elian witnessed, and no telling how many hours
>> > the
>> > poor thing clung to a life preserver, alone and afraid, before he was
>> > rescued. I can only imagine how long he wept and wept, calling for
>> > help.
>> > Furthermore, the trauma of the recovery from the house ended quickly w/
>> > the child's reunion w/ his father, which must've been tremendously
>> > comforting and the happiest moment the child had had in months.
>>
>> Boy you sure seem to KNOW details that NOBODY else knows. From all
>> reports Elian was unconscious or asleep when his mother drown.
> Which doesn't make a whole lot of sense, if one thinks about it. High
> seas, inner tube, mother dying - yeah kids sleep through experiences
> like that.
Look ASSHOLE..................... Again you make FACT statements that
are NOT FACTS................ They started in a boat. Ran into weather.
Boat/raft sank. Grabbed innertubes.
Water cold. Mom and other lost consciousness, let go and were drown OR may
have become SHARK FOOD...... NOBOY and get this - this means YOU who seems
to have ABSOLUTE FACT CLAIMS on EVERYTHING, NOBODY KNOWS exactly.
> But you sure love to PAINT in lots of details. I just LOVE how you speak
> for the child,
>> it is as if you spernt days talking to him and his father and family.
> Well, nothing seems to inhibit you from speaking for every Cuban on the
> whole damn island, not to mention the entire crazy Cubano community.
A. *I* an not the one trying to do that you two GOOFS are.
B. When you two describe life in Cuba you are simply FULL OF SHIT!
>> > If that was my child in there that some whackos were holding hostage, I
>> > would like to think my gov't would take any action necessary--even
>> > breaking down doors and holding the captors at gunpoint, if
>> > necessary--to
>> > get my child back to me. It was one time I truly was proud of Janet
>> > Reno
>> > for having the guts and the moral courage to do the right thing under
>> > the
>> > most undeserved criticism. It makes me sick to think she apologized for
>> > this, ever. If this had happened w/ the present president in office and
>> > w/
>> > that jerk he has running the DOJ now, probably poor little Elian
>> > would've
>> > been stuck w/ those lunatics in Miami forever. I shudder to think.
>>
>> Reno should have sent the police in much earlier. However - none of
>> this
>> cures your lack of knowledge of life in Cuba and your arrogant propensity
>> to
>> claim that you know EVERYTHING yet never having been there.
> EnEss NEVER (caps. Can you read that now?) stated she knew everything
> about Cuba. NEVER (get it?) Reread what she wrote. She is making
> assumptions on life in Cuba that are true for life anywhere, under any
> regime, under all sorts of repression. The devil you know is almost
> always preferable to the devil you don't know.
I have read what she wrote several times. She states FACTS about life in
Cuba. You attempt to clean up her claims don't help. Cuba is NOT like
"everywhere" or even "anywhere."
Cuba is an enigma. The island is life in contradictions. Again you have a
simple CURATIVE - go visit that website and LEARN.... It isn't MY website.
Look at TODAY'S Cuba in photgraphs. THEN come back and argue with me.
> OTOH, YOU (caps) are claiming to know absolutely how every Cuban ever
> feels about nearly everything because your wife (who I suspect is a
> myth) is from there.
Every Cuban? I can pretty well say what MOST Cubans feel, those who are
Fidelistas, and those who are not.
>> And again to the Canadian - I *HAVE* been to Cuba. My "few" relatives
>> by marriage...
> Oh, relatives by MARRIAGE. Does this mean that I can claim to be an
> expert on my SO's home country because I've visited the place and met
> his family?
Nice SNIP job. Again IGNORANT as hell. I would suppose that IF you
married a person from another country, had other relatives from that
country, had spent a considerable amount of tile LIVING there and NOT just
broadening your ass in a resort hotel, MAYBE you might come to know some
things about the country. Perhaps even enough to RESENT a smart ass who had
NEVER been there and who has ZERO knowledge about the country TRYING to tell
you they know VASTLY more about it than you do!
> Is that your criteria for expertise? For total knowledge?
I don't have to have TOTAL knowledge, Just MORE than YOU and ENESS!
Phoenix
>
> "Phoenix" <avian...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1cd82fb16...@news-server.carolina.rr.com...
>
> > The child belongs with his parent. His parent lives in Cuba. That's
> > where the child belongs.
>
> No argument on that point.
>
> > As far as the benefits of staying in Cuba, Elian's education is likely
> > to be better there. Say what you will about Communism, but it does make
> > for good schools, better than our own pathetic example of public
> > education. Most of my emigrant friends agree (and many are from
> > repressive countries) that they would love for their kids to be educated
> > back home and come to the US as adults.
>
> And you "KNOW" this HOW? Did you know that a degree from a Cuban
> University today is practically worthless outside Cuba? They just went
> through a big flap with brazilians trained as doctors in Havana FAILING the
> exams to get a medical license in Brazil.
Could it be because the Brazilian tests were in Portugeuse? (jesus h
christ, dude.)
Care to name ANY Cuban degree
> program that IS Internationally Accredited? Don't believe every bit of
> propaganda you hear PRO or CON about Cuba.
We were talking about Elian, right? Is he in college now? Or would he
rather be in the Miami public school system right now? Do you know much
about Florida public schools?
bel
>
>
>
>
>
Phoenix
>
> "Phoenix" <avian...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1cd82a942...@news-server.carolina.rr.com...
>
> > > Here's another one who needs an education.
> >>
> >> And YOU will terll us ALL about Cuba from your VAST VAST VAST fund of
> >> knowledge about it!
> >
> > Fund of knowledge? Who's illiterate here?
>
> For a color image - you can look in the mirror.
Color image? Fund of knowledge? What in the fuck are you trying to
say?
> >>
> >> Actually IF you followed the case, the girl Marisleysis had FAR more
> >> to
> >> do with it that Elian's Great Uncle. Was the Cuban comminity in Miami
> >> "misguided" or passionate?
>
> > How about both. Or is it impossible to be both using kpr logic?
>
> It isn't logic it's FACTS. The Great Uncle was pretty much a passenger
> IF you followed the case. Here are a few clues for you.
>
> 1. I am IN Florida.
> 2. My wife is FROM Cuba.
> 3. I have BEEN to Cuba several times.
> 4. My son in law is Cuban.
> 5. I have family pretty much all over the island.
This all could be lies, as far as I'm concerned. No one knows you're a
dog on the Internet.
If you can't come up with a persuasive argument, or aquit yourself in a
reasonable way, you're supposed over-riding authority on all things
Cuban isn't going to be believed.
> > The Miami Cubanos will take any excuse, even use an orphaned boy, to
> > scream, cry and rend garments over Castro. Frankly, I have little
> > sympathy with this kind of mercenary passion, especially when children
> > are used as pawns.
>
> Again you KNOW this HOW? I know people face to face and YOU?
Jeepers! You know people "face to face"? Damn. Is this another sign
of your literacy?
The hysterical over-reaction and attempt to garner sympathy by Elian's
Florida cousins was so obviously a play to make themselves heard by
middle America. They could care less that the boy has a father. Since
the father is a communist, he ceases to be human for these "loving"
cousins. THAT is a sign of a mercenary code of ethics, where the
"love" for Elian and his need for a father isn't as important as
sticking it to Castro.
People aren't allowed to kidnap children in a civil society, even if
they *think* they know what's best for the child.
You probably need to read "Where Angels Fear to Tread" by EM Forster.
>
> > The Florida Cubanos are Americans now. They aren't any different from
> > Mexicans who had their lands stolen by drug lords, or Jews who fled the
> > Russian pogroms. They aren't special in this country, no matter how
> > arrogantly they like to hold themselves above other US citizens -
> > especially any other Latino citizen.
>
> Who says they are special? My wife is pretty special to me. I like the
> Cuban part of my family.
Oh the sacred Florida Cubanos think they are pretty damn special -
unlike anyone else in the world. You said it yourself, having fallen
for their propaganda, that Cubanos are just different.
Spare me.
>
>
> >> Again you have a HUGE mouth on a subject where you are functionally
> >> illiterate.
>
> > Functionally illiterate? Would you like the whole newsgroup to take a
> > vote on who exactly is illiterate? The wonderfully eloquent EnEss or
> > the pathetic little man who must use caps to get his mangled points
> > across?
>
> The caps are for EMPHASIS because Usnet doesn't like HTML. You want to
> vote on FACTS or personalities?
You'd rather I went with personalities, right? Your personality
specifically, as a Cubano by marriage <snicker>, and just trust
everything you say - cuz facts don't make much of an appearance in your
babblings.
> >> Boy you sure seem to KNOW details that NOBODY else knows. From all
> >> reports Elian was unconscious or asleep when his mother drown.
>
> > Which doesn't make a whole lot of sense, if one thinks about it. High
> > seas, inner tube, mother dying - yeah kids sleep through experiences
> > like that.
>
> Look ASSHOLE..................... Again you make FACT statements that
> are NOT FACTS................ They started in a boat. Ran into weather.
> Boat/raft sank. Grabbed innertubes.
> Water cold. Mom and other lost consciousness, let go and were drown OR may
> have become SHARK FOOD...... NOBOY and get this - this means YOU who seems
> to have ABSOLUTE FACT CLAIMS on EVERYTHING, NOBODY KNOWS exactly.
Okay, if nobody knows then how can you claim Elian slept through the
whole thing? You don't have the facts either, when you chose to take on
EnEss, and spewed conjecture solely based on your marriage <snicker>.
And I'm pretty damn sure Elian did not sleep through the whole thing.
>
> > But you sure love to PAINT in lots of details. I just LOVE how you speak
> > for the child,
> >> it is as if you spernt days talking to him and his father and family.
>
> > Well, nothing seems to inhibit you from speaking for every Cuban on the
> > whole damn island, not to mention the entire crazy Cubano community.
>
> A. *I* an not the one trying to do that you two GOOFS are.
Do I need to show you quotes from your own post 2 above this one where
you claim to know the heart felt desires of every Cuban. How about your
own statement below, which I will mark with an * for you.
> B. When you two describe life in Cuba you are simply FULL OF SHIT!
Which you haven't disproved at all, only bellowed about your supposed
connection to the island.
>
>
> > EnEss NEVER (caps. Can you read that now?) stated she knew everything
> > about Cuba. NEVER (get it?) Reread what she wrote. She is making
> > assumptions on life in Cuba that are true for life anywhere, under any
> > regime, under all sorts of repression. The devil you know is almost
> > always preferable to the devil you don't know.
>
> I have read what she wrote several times. She states FACTS about life in
> Cuba. You attempt to clean up her claims don't help. Cuba is NOT like
> "everywhere" or even "anywhere."
Sure it is. Because people are people. Plenty of people just live
their lives, love their families, take joy from where they are even
under the worst regimes.
Guess what?! People can still be happy even under Stalin (my personal
biggest of the bads.) People who had little contact with his NKVD and
survived the famines and the war, could still love their country despite
the deprivations and never think they could be happier anywhere else.
That's just how it is!
>
> > OTOH, YOU (caps) are claiming to know absolutely how every Cuban ever
> > feels about nearly everything because your wife (who I suspect is a
> > myth) is from there.
>
> Every Cuban? I can pretty well say what MOST Cubans feel, those who are
> Fidelistas, and those who are not.
*So for the small sphere of this newsgroup (though I imagine you extend
it far and wide) you suppose that you are the ultimate source of
knowledge on Cuba.
>
> >> And again to the Canadian - I *HAVE* been to Cuba. My "few" relatives
> >> by marriage...
>
> > Oh, relatives by MARRIAGE. Does this mean that I can claim to be an
> > expert on my SO's home country because I've visited the place and met
> > his family?
>
> Nice SNIP job. Again IGNORANT as hell. I would suppose that IF you
> married a person from another country, had other relatives from that
> country, had spent a considerable amount of tile LIVING there and NOT just
> broadening your ass in a resort hotel, MAYBE you might come to know some
> things about the country. Perhaps even enough to RESENT a smart ass who had
> NEVER been there and who has ZERO knowledge about the country TRYING to tell
> you they know VASTLY more about it than you do!
Dear heart, I have lived in other countries and have been shacked up for
a long time with a non-American. Truthfully, I've never been to a
resort (I don't think, what is the technical definition?), but you don't
have to believe it or that I have connections to several countries
through my family and my SO.
>
> > Is that your criteria for expertise? For total knowledge?
>
> I don't have to have TOTAL knowledge, Just MORE than YOU and ENESS!
Then STFU and quit talking like you do.
bel
>
>
>
>
>
` krp >
>> > The child belongs with his parent. His parent lives in Cuba. That's
>> > where the child belongs.
>>
>> No argument on that point.
>>
>> > As far as the benefits of staying in Cuba, Elian's education is likely
>> > to be better there. Say what you will about Communism, but it does
>> > make
>> > for good schools, better than our own pathetic example of public
>> > education. Most of my emigrant friends agree (and many are from
>> > repressive countries) that they would love for their kids to be
>> > educated
>> > back home and come to the US as adults.
>>
>> And you "KNOW" this HOW? Did you know that a degree from a Cuban
>> University today is practically worthless outside Cuba? They just went
>> through a big flap with brazilians trained as doctors in Havana FAILING
>> the
>> exams to get a medical license in Brazil.
> Could it be because the Brazilian tests were in Portugeuse? (jesus h
> christ, dude.)
Are you stupid? What part of "BRAZILIANS" don't you understand buttwipe?
Brazilians who PRESUMABLY speak their own language went to study medicine in
Havana.
Of course in your up the ass world NOBODY understands more than one
language. NOBODY on the planet! I won't even go into a comparison between
Spanish and Portugese.
Now that you ahve made a TOTAL FOOL of yourself YET
AGAIN................................. <sigh> Terll me MORE abotu all the
things you know about Cuba never having been there?
>> Care to name ANY Cuban degree program that IS Internationally
>> Accredited? Don't believe every bit of
>> propaganda you hear PRO or CON about Cuba.
> We were talking about Elian, right? Is he in college now? Or would he
> rather be in the Miami public school system right now? Do you know much
> about Florida public schools?
Yeah LOTS.......... Enough that since I LIVE here, but feel FREE to tell
me ALL ABOUT Florida too as the world's foremost expert on both Florida AND
Cuba... Generally public education has sucked, which is why I had my kids in
a private school. I also KNOW about Cuban schools but I simply CANNOT wait
till you share with is all your EXPERTISE on the subject. Please TELL me ALL
about the Cuban educational system since my stepson who is 11 just came here
from Cuba last December. TELL ME AGAIN.... ALL about your VAST VAST VAST
knowledge of education in Cuba............................................
PLEASE keep lecturing me on Cuba. I find people who have NEVER been to Cuba,
and don't REALLY **KNOW** anyone from Cuba to be SO entertaining as they
LECTURE me on it, because I have only been there a few times, and lived
there a while, have married a woman from Cuba, and have family over most of
the island. PLEASE PLEASE feel free to share YOUR EXPERTISE with us - that
you obtained HOW?
` krp >
>> > > Here's another one who needs an education.
>> >>
>> >> And YOU will terll us ALL about Cuba from your VAST VAST VAST fund
>> >> of
>> >> knowledge about it!
>> >
>> > Fund of knowledge? Who's illiterate here?
>>
>> For a color image - you can look in the mirror.
>
> Color image? Fund of knowledge? What in the fuck are you trying to say?
>> >> Actually IF you followed the case, the girl Marisleysis had FAR
>> >> more to
>> >> do with it that Elian's Great Uncle. Was the Cuban comminity in Miami
>> >> "misguided" or passionate?
>> > How about both. Or is it impossible to be both using kpr logic?
>> It isn't logic it's FACTS. The Great Uncle was pretty much a
>> passenger
>> IF you followed the case. Here are a few clues for you.
>> 1. I am IN Florida.
>> 2. My wife is FROM Cuba.
>> 3. I have BEEN to Cuba several times.
>> 4. My son in law is Cuban.
>> 5. I have family pretty much all over the island.
> This all could be lies, as far as I'm concerned. No one knows you're a
> dog on the Internet.
Right. Ever hear of Holguin, Cuba? La Tunas? Want me to send you some
photos from Cuba?
> If you can't come up with a persuasive argument, or aquit yourself in a
> reasonable way, you're supposed over-riding authority on all things
> Cuban isn't going to be believed.
am NOT going to "acquit" myself in a reasonable way with somebody
who is simply BULLSHITTING on a subject where their obvious fund of
knowledge is ZERO but who insists on insulting people with REAL knowledge,
and get used to that. I never said I am an authority on "all things Cuban"
but I know one hell of a lot more than somebody who has never been there.
Now HERE is a way you can start to check things out that I am saying.
First you can check the following website to see HOW I get to Cuba when I
go... http://www.abc-charters.com/ (I generally fly to Holguin)
Then you can check the other website I have provided in my previous posts.
http://www.therealcuba.com and you can verify the FACTS that I have stated.
BUT you will NOT will you. You will keep on with BULLSHIT! WHY?
>> > The Miami Cubanos will take any excuse, even use an orphaned boy, to
>> > scream, cry and rend garments over Castro. Frankly, I have little
>> > sympathy with this kind of mercenary passion, especially when children
>> > are used as pawns.
>> Again you KNOW this HOW? I know people face to face and YOU?
> Jeepers! You know people "face to face"? Damn. Is this another sign of
> your literacy?
Yes - I have met these people IN PERSON as opposed to your process of
divination from CNN's news coverage.
> The hysterical over-reaction and attempt to garner sympathy by Elian's
> Florida cousins was so obviously a play to make themselves heard by
> middle America. They could care less that the boy has a father. Since
> the father is a communist, he ceases to be human for these "loving"
> cousins. THAT is a sign of a mercenary code of ethics, where the
> "love" for Elian and his need for a father isn't as important as
> sticking it to Castro.
You have obviously NOT read a word I have said. I have said that the
cousin "Merisleysis" was a mental basket case. And that was on a good day
before Elian came on thew scene.
I have also said that the boy belongs with his dad. I have written a great
deal about the special relationship between Cuban fathers and their sons.
What I have corrected is your BULLSHIT about what life is like in Cuba,
because you don't have a fukkkkking clue! Which is obvious from the things
you have said.
> People aren't allowed to kidnap children in a civil society, even if
> they *think* they know what's best for the child.
Why are you on that subject? Do you finally realize how off base you
have been about life in Cuba? I have never said a word to support the
position of the Miami family. However your understanding of both them and
life in Cuba are displays of ignorance. I have afforded you the opportunity
to educate yourself to see just HOW wrong the claims you have made are, and
you stubbornly REFUSE........................ Want to know what causes
incivility? It is the refusal to accept evidence that your opinion is wrong
and continuing to abuse with MISINFORMATION........... Go to the
websites... And then get back to me.
> You probably need to read "Where Angels Fear to Tread" by EM Forster.
WHY?
>> > The Florida Cubanos are Americans now. They aren't any different from
>> > Mexicans who had their lands stolen by drug lords, or Jews who fled the
>> > Russian pogroms. They aren't special in this country, no matter how
>> > arrogantly they like to hold themselves above other US citizens -
>> > especially any other Latino citizen.
>> Who says they are special? My wife is pretty special to me. I like
>> the
>> Cuban part of my family.
> Oh the sacred Florida Cubanos think they are pretty damn special -
> unlike anyone else in the world. You said it yourself, having fallen
> for their propaganda, that Cubanos are just different.
> Spare me.
Look whoever you are. My wife and I have been married for almost 2 years
now. It took that long to get her and the boys out of Cuba. She just got
here late last year finally. Don't hit me with what the Cubans think about
themselves, YOU haven't a clue! You have PROVED that with your posts here as
have your two pals.
>
>> >> Again you have a HUGE mouth on a subject where you are functionally
>> >> illiterate.
>> > Functionally illiterate? Would you like the whole newsgroup to take a
>> > vote on who exactly is illiterate? The wonderfully eloquent EnEss or
>> > the pathetic little man who must use caps to get his mangled points
>> > across?
>> The caps are for EMPHASIS because Usnet doesn't like HTML. You want
>> to
>> vote on FACTS or personalities?
> You'd rather I went with personalities, right? Your personality
> specifically, as a Cubano by marriage <snicker>, and just trust
> everything you say - cuz facts don't make much of an appearance in your
> babblings.
You made a number of FACT statements about life in Cuba. I told you they
were WRONG - I offered you a website where you could educate yourself. YOU
REFUSE and continue to insist you are right and insult me. You could go to
that site, and see if you could find something to refute what it shows. You
prefer to WALLOW in your ignorance andc infeat the rest of the world with
it.
>> >> Boy you sure seem to KNOW details that NOBODY else knows. From all
>> >> reports Elian was unconscious or asleep when his mother drown.
>> > Which doesn't make a whole lot of sense, if one thinks about it. High
>> > seas, inner tube, mother dying - yeah kids sleep through experiences
>> > like that.
>> Look ASSHOLE..................... Again you make FACT statements that
>> are NOT FACTS................ They started in a boat. Ran into weather.
>> Boat/raft sank. Grabbed innertubes.
>> Water cold. Mom and other lost consciousness, let go and were drown OR
>> may
>> have become SHARK FOOD...... NOBOY and get this - this means YOU who
>> seems
>> to have ABSOLUTE FACT CLAIMS on EVERYTHING, NOBODY KNOWS exactly.
> Okay, if nobody knows then how can you claim Elian slept through the
> whole thing? You don't have the facts either, when you chose to take on
> EnEss, and spewed conjecture solely based on your marriage <snicker>.
Because that is the best information that there was that came out in
OFFICIAL proceedings. NOT .. get it WRONG all the time CNN... In the
courts.
> And I'm pretty damn sure Elian did not sleep through the whole thing.
HOW? I know you are pretty damn sure on EVERYTHING.................. What
are your sources? Have you READ the Coast Guard reports??????????????
>> > But you sure love to PAINT in lots of details. I just LOVE how you
>> > speak
>> > for the child, it is as if you spernt days talking to him and his
>> > father and family.
>> > Well, nothing seems to inhibit you from speaking for every Cuban on the
>> > whole damn island, not to mention the entire crazy Cubano community.
>> A. *I* an not the one trying to do that you two GOOFS are.
> Do I need to show you quotes from your own post 2 above this one where
> you claim to know the heart felt desires of every Cuban. How about your
> own statement below, which I will mark with an * for you.
I did NOT say that at all. That's you characterization Want to try
again? But *I* can come far closer to being able to do that than you! I have
DIRECT contacts with Cuba and Cubans ............. and YOU?????????? Just
some Usenet BLOWHARD with NOTHING but a mouth full of strident opinions who
REFUSES to accept evidence placed before their own eyes.
>> B. When you two describe life in Cuba you are simply FULL OF SHIT!
> Which you haven't disproved at all, only bellowed about your supposed
> connection to the island.
AGAIN - - go visit http://www.therealcuba.com. BUT..............
*YOU* will NOT!
>> > EnEss NEVER (caps. Can you read that now?) stated she knew everything
>> > about Cuba. NEVER (get it?) Reread what she wrote. She is making
>> > assumptions on life in Cuba that are true for life anywhere, under any
>> > regime, under all sorts of repression. The devil you know is almost
>> > always preferable to the devil you don't know.
>> I have read what she wrote several times. She states FACTS about life
>> in
>> Cuba. You attempt to clean up her claims don't help. Cuba is NOT like
>> "everywhere" or even "anywhere."
> Sure it is. Because people are people. Plenty of people just live
> their lives, love their families, take joy from where they are even
> under the worst regimes.
That part isn't the part I faulted. it was the claim of this HUGE HUGE
"middle class" in Cuba with their 70 inch wide screen TV's with Dolby 92.1
stereo and their Lamboghini sports cars and Armani suits... (RIDICULE) that
I disagreed with. No they don't have "suburban" homes and California King
mattresses. They don't have state of the art programmable microwaves... YOU
ARE CLUELESS!!! And deliberately so. You are the little kid who makes a
stupid claim, and when somebody tries to show them how wront the statement
was, puts their fingers in their ears and starts humming...........
> Guess what?! People can still be happy even under Stalin (my personal
> biggest of the bads.) People who had little contact with his NKVD and
> survived the famines and the war, could still love their country despite
> the deprivations and never think they could be happier anywhere else.
> That's just how it is!
Know many people who lived under Stalin too do ya? Did they have a HUGE
middle class with 90 inch wide screen TV's too? Lots of steak and trips
around the world did they? Just living in the LAP of luxury there in them
police states. I bet that if you were Jewish in Germany in 1940 you were
just having the time of your life partying all the time with your close
buddies in the Gestapo and enjoying the good life. I wish idiots like you
could be made to live even for a short time under one of the dictators. I
bet you LOVED Pol Pot!
>> > OTOH, YOU (caps) are claiming to know absolutely how every Cuban ever
>> > feels about nearly everything because your wife (who I suspect is a
>> > myth) is from there.
>> Every Cuban? I can pretty well say what MOST Cubans feel, those who
>> are
>> Fidelistas, and those who are not.
> *So for the small sphere of this newsgroup (though I imagine you extend
> it far and wide) you suppose that you are the ultimate source of
> knowledge on Cuba.
What I am saying, and SEE if, with your limited intelligence, you can
get this. I know a BUNCH more than YOU and your pal!
>> >> And again to the Canadian - I *HAVE* been to Cuba. My "few"
>> >> relatives
>> >> by marriage...
>> > Oh, relatives by MARRIAGE. Does this mean that I can claim to be an
>> > expert on my SO's home country because I've visited the place and met
>> > his family?
>
>> Nice SNIP job. Again IGNORANT as hell. I would suppose that IF you
>> married a person from another country, had other relatives from that
>> country, had spent a considerable amount of tile LIVING there and NOT
>> just
>> broadening your ass in a resort hotel, MAYBE you might come to know some
>> things about the country. Perhaps even enough to RESENT a smart ass who
>> had
>> NEVER been there and who has ZERO knowledge about the country TRYING to
>> tell
>> you they know VASTLY more about it than you do!
> Dear heart, I have lived in other countries and have been shacked up for
> a long time with a non-American. Truthfully, I've never been to a
> resort (I don't think, what is the technical definition?), but you don't
> have to believe it or that I have connections to several countries
> through my family and my SO.
Well I have traveled too. Traveling and staying in resort hotels doesn't
really teach you about living in a society. I have connections to several
countries myself. Some that I have never been to. Like Scotland. Part of my
family came from there, my family tree goes back to King Robert the Bruce.
(DeBruis). I tend, however, NOT to correct people with deeper connections to
Scotland than I have. Now my paternal grandmother was from Germany. Hmmmmm
that also doesn't make me much of an expert on Germany. I have been to
Germany several times. I know some things. Been to England, France,
Switzerland, Austria, Israel, Lebanon, and a few other places.........
>
>> > Is that your criteria for expertise? For total knowledge?
>>
>> I don't have to have TOTAL knowledge, Just MORE than YOU and ENESS!
> Then STFU and quit talking like you do.
Not as long as you spread bullshit.
Phoenix
> > "Phoenix" <avian...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1cd8d9f19...@news-server.carolina.rr.com...
>
> >> 1. I am IN Florida.
> >> 2. My wife is FROM Cuba.
> >> 3. I have BEEN to Cuba several times.
> >> 4. My son in law is Cuban.
> >> 5. I have family pretty much all over the island.
>
> > This all could be lies, as far as I'm concerned. No one knows you're a
> > dog on the Internet.
>
> Right. Ever hear of Holguin, Cuba? La Tunas? Want me to send you some
> photos from Cuba?
Not really, because it wouldn't matter.
I can send you photos of Antarctica though I've never been there (would
love to go there some time.)
>
> > If you can't come up with a persuasive argument, or aquit yourself in a
> > reasonable way, you're supposed over-riding authority on all things
> > Cuban isn't going to be believed.
>
> am NOT going to "acquit" myself in a reasonable way with somebody
> who is simply BULLSHITTING on a subject where their obvious fund of
> knowledge is ZERO but who insists on insulting people with REAL knowledge,
> and get used to that. I never said I am an authority on "all things Cuban"
> but I know one hell of a lot more than somebody who has never been there.
> Now HERE is a way you can start to check things out that I am saying.
>
> First you can check the following website to see HOW I get to Cuba when I
> go... http://www.abc-charters.com/ (I generally fly to Holguin)
>
> Then you can check the other website I have provided in my previous posts.
> http://www.therealcuba.com and you can verify the FACTS that I have stated.
>
> BUT you will NOT will you. You will keep on with BULLSHIT! WHY?
I might, I might not. Who knows? I'm more interested in your obvious
hysteria over the subject of Cuba and seeing whether you can convince me
that you really have any connections to the island or have any authority
on the subject at all.
>
> > The hysterical over-reaction and attempt to garner sympathy by Elian's
> > Florida cousins was so obviously a play to make themselves heard by
> > middle America. They could care less that the boy has a father. Since
> > the father is a communist, he ceases to be human for these "loving"
> > cousins. THAT is a sign of a mercenary code of ethics, where the
> > "love" for Elian and his need for a father isn't as important as
> > sticking it to Castro.
>
> You have obviously NOT read a word I have said. I have said that the
> cousin "Merisleysis" was a mental basket case. And that was on a good day
> before Elian came on thew scene.
> I have also said that the boy belongs with his dad. I have written a great
> deal about the special relationship between Cuban fathers and their sons.
> What I have corrected is your BULLSHIT about what life is like in Cuba,
> because you don't have a fukkkkking clue! Which is obvious from the things
> you have said.
Nope. Reread your own posts. You jumped in to defend The Cousins,
though not really, since it looks like you mostly want to impress us all
with your vast knowledge of Cuba. Your mental switcharoos are
astounding, and don't really support your cases for deep knowledge of
Cuba.
>
> > People aren't allowed to kidnap children in a civil society, even if
> > they *think* they know what's best for the child.
>
> Why are you on that subject? Do you finally realize how off base you
> have been about life in Cuba? I have never said a word to support the
> position of the Miami family.
Yes you have.
However your understanding of both them and
> life in Cuba are displays of ignorance. I have afforded you the opportunity
> to educate yourself to see just HOW wrong the claims you have made are, and
> you stubbornly REFUSE........................ Want to know what causes
> incivility? It is the refusal to accept evidence that your opinion is wrong
> and continuing to abuse with MISINFORMATION........... Go to the
> websites... And then get back to me.
If this evidence is so factual and convincing, why aren't you able to
present it yourself?
>
> > Oh the sacred Florida Cubanos think they are pretty damn special -
> > unlike anyone else in the world. You said it yourself, having fallen
> > for their propaganda, that Cubanos are just different.
> > Spare me.
>
> Look whoever you are. My wife and I have been married for almost 2 years
> now. It took that long to get her and the boys out of Cuba. She just got
> here late last year finally. Don't hit me with what the Cubans think about
> themselves, YOU haven't a clue! You have PROVED that with your posts here as
> have your two pals.
Your wife of 2 years? You got her out of there? Was this arrangement
something like a Russian or Filipino mail order bride?
No, I can't imagine any woman making her situation more pathetic, more
tragic, in order to attract a white knight of a man who doesn't have too
many options in the romance department.
>
> >> The caps are for EMPHASIS because Usnet doesn't like HTML. You want
> >> to
> >> vote on FACTS or personalities?
>
> > You'd rather I went with personalities, right? Your personality
> > specifically, as a Cubano by marriage <snicker>, and just trust
> > everything you say - cuz facts don't make much of an appearance in your
> > babblings.
>
> You made a number of FACT statements about life in Cuba. I told you they
> were WRONG - I offered you a website where you could educate yourself. YOU
> REFUSE and continue to insist you are right and insult me.
Show me where I've stated something as fact that is implicitly wrong.
I'm willing to eat crow if you can find some outrageous statement I've
made, like all Cubans wear Armani suits and drive slick cars.
You could go to
> that site, and see if you could find something to refute what it shows. You
> prefer to WALLOW in your ignorance andc infeat the rest of the world with
> it.
Or you can NOT fly off the handle and accuse me of being a member of
your fantasy, resort-visiting, enemies of Cubanos.
NOBOY and get this - this means YOU who
> >> seems
> >> to have ABSOLUTE FACT CLAIMS on EVERYTHING, NOBODY KNOWS exactly.
>
> > Okay, if nobody knows then how can you claim Elian slept through the
> > whole thing? You don't have the facts either, when you chose to take on
> > EnEss, and spewed conjecture solely based on your marriage <snicker>.
>
> Because that is the best information that there was that came out in
> OFFICIAL proceedings. NOT .. get it WRONG all the time CNN... In the
> courts.
>
> > And I'm pretty damn sure Elian did not sleep through the whole thing.
>
> HOW? I know you are pretty damn sure on EVERYTHING.................. What
> are your sources? Have you READ the Coast Guard reports??????????????
Have you?
> >> Cuba. You attempt to clean up her claims don't help. Cuba is NOT like
> >> "everywhere" or even "anywhere."
>
> > Sure it is. Because people are people. Plenty of people just live
> > their lives, love their families, take joy from where they are even
> > under the worst regimes.
>
> That part isn't the part I faulted. it was the claim of this HUGE HUGE
> "middle class" in Cuba with their 70 inch wide screen TV's with Dolby 92.1
> stereo and their Lamboghini sports cars and Armani suits... (RIDICULE) that
> I disagreed with. No they don't have "suburban" homes and California King
> mattresses. They don't have state of the art programmable microwaves... YOU
> ARE CLUELESS!!!
When have I, or anyone else, stated anything like the above? There
hasn't been a single mention of TVs or beds or sports cars (or resorts
for that matter) before you brought it up.
Which leads me to conclude that you have grafted an argument that exists
only inside your head on to this one. I don't know who would say that
that the average Cuban enjoys a 70" wide TV, but obviously you've got a
devil dreamed up who would.
> > Guess what?! People can still be happy even under Stalin (my personal
> > biggest of the bads.) People who had little contact with his NKVD and
> > survived the famines and the war, could still love their country despite
> > the deprivations and never think they could be happier anywhere else.
> > That's just how it is!
>
> Know many people who lived under Stalin too do ya? Did they have a HUGE
> middle class with 90 inch wide screen TV's too? Lots of steak and trips
> around the world did they? Just living in the LAP of luxury there in them
> police states.
Are all those things the necessities for happiness?
I bet that if you were Jewish in Germany in 1940 you were
> just having the time of your life partying all the time with your close
> buddies in the Gestapo and enjoying the good life. I wish idiots like you
> could be made to live even for a short time under one of the dictators. I
> bet you LOVED Pol Pot!
Huh? I think you've gone over the edge.
>
> >> > OTOH, YOU (caps) are claiming to know absolutely how every Cuban ever
> >> > feels about nearly everything because your wife (who I suspect is a
> >> > myth) is from there.
>
> >> Every Cuban? I can pretty well say what MOST Cubans feel, those who
> >> are
> >> Fidelistas, and those who are not.
>
> > *So for the small sphere of this newsgroup (though I imagine you extend
> > it far and wide) you suppose that you are the ultimate source of
> > knowledge on Cuba.
>
> What I am saying, and SEE if, with your limited intelligence, you can
> get this. I know a BUNCH more than YOU and your pal!
Which you haven't been able to prove, though you've tried, in Bill
O'Reilly style, to scream it over and over again, IN CAPS, without
bringing a decent argument to the table. Repeating an assertion, ad
infinitum, doesn't make it true.
bel
>
Phoenix
Somebody in my world speaks 3 languages and reads 5. Damn foreigners!
But if he had to study something like medicine or surgery or chemistry,
I know exactly which language he'd feel competent enough to study
something so difficult and specific.
Even those with several languages under their belts will be better at
learning something demanding in their first, native, tongue.
NOBODY on the planet! I won't even go into a comparison between
> Spanish and Portugese.
No, please do. It's a conversation I've had before with professors and
such. I'd LOVE to hear how you compare Spanish and Portuguese.
> > We were talking about Elian, right? Is he in college now? Or would he
> > rather be in the Miami public school system right now? Do you know much
> > about Florida public schools?
>
>Generally public education has sucked, which is why I had my kids in
> a private school. I also KNOW about Cuban schools but I simply CANNOT wait
> till you share with is all your EXPERTISE on the subject.
It appears I don't need to because you already know that Florida has a
horrible public schools system.
Please TELL me ALL
> about the Cuban educational system since my stepson who is 11 just came here
> from Cuba last December. TELL ME AGAIN.... ALL about your VAST VAST VAST
> knowledge of education in Cuba..
Simply put, the kids there get educational basics that the Florida
schools cannot offer. Simple things, nothing dramatic, like the kids
come out of schools there knowing how to read. And I doubt they have to
go through metal detectors to get to class, or that they worry that
their chums might come in one day with guns blazing.
..........................................
> PLEASE keep lecturing me on Cuba. I find people who have NEVER been to Cuba,
> and don't REALLY **KNOW** anyone from Cuba to be SO entertaining as they
> LECTURE me on it, because I have only been there a few times, and lived
> there a while, have married a woman from Cuba, and have family over most of
> the island. PLEASE PLEASE feel free to share YOUR EXPERTISE with us - that
> you obtained HOW?
<chuckle> I don't need to because I've never said as much. But I'm
mighty sure that no matter how often you've been to Cuba (which might be
never) that you haven't proved to me that you some sort of special
knowledge of the place.
bel
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
` krp >
>> >> 1. I am IN Florida.
>> >> 2. My wife is FROM Cuba.
>> >> 3. I have BEEN to Cuba several times.
>> >> 4. My son in law is Cuban.
>> >> 5. I have family pretty much all over the island.
>> > This all could be lies, as far as I'm concerned. No one knows you're a
>> > dog on the Internet.
>> Right. Ever hear of Holguin, Cuba? La Tunas? Want me to send you some
>> photos from Cuba?
> Not really, because it wouldn't matter.
Yeah I know. I find it amusing that a LOUD MOUTH who has NEVER been to
Cuba, has NO connections with the island, doesn't REALLy KNOW anyone from
Cuba, can sit there, LIKE YOU, and offer themselves as an "EXPERT" on the
place and constantly correct somebody who HAS lived there, and has family
there..
> I can send you photos of Antarctica though I've never been there (would
> love to go there some time.)
And do you hold yourself out to be THE FINAL EXPERT on Antarctica
too??????
>> > If you can't come up with a persuasive argument, or aquit yourself in a
>> > reasonable way, you're supposed over-riding authority on all things
>> > Cuban isn't going to be believed.
>> am NOT going to "acquit" myself in a reasonable way with
>> somebody
>> who is simply BULLSHITTING on a subject where their obvious fund of
>> knowledge is ZERO but who insists on insulting people with REAL
>> knowledge,
>> and get used to that. I never said I am an authority on "all things
>> Cuban"
>> but I know one hell of a lot more than somebody who has never been there.
>> Now HERE is a way you can start to check things out that I am saying.
>> First you can check the following website to see HOW I get to Cuba when I
>> go... http://www.abc-charters.com/ (I generally fly to Holguin)
>> Then you can check the other website I have provided in my previous
>> posts.
>> http://www.therealcuba.com and you can verify the FACTS that I have
>> stated.
>> BUT you will NOT will you. You will keep on with BULLSHIT! WHY?
> I might, I might not. Who knows? I'm more interested in your obvious
> hysteria over the subject of Cuba and seeing whether you can convince me
> that you really have any connections to the island or have any authority
> on the subject at all.
WELL how do I do that? You ADAMANTLY REFUSE to look at anything I
provide that couinters your BULLSHIT! You are the little girl who puts her
fingers in her hear and starts screaming ; "LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA"
when the truth is offered. That you REFUSE to look at and acknowledge the
EVIDENCE offered you says all that needs to be said about YOU!!!!
>> You have obviously NOT read a word I have said. I have said that the
>> cousin "Merisleysis" was a mental basket case. And that was on a good day
>> before Elian came on thew scene.
>> I have also said that the boy belongs with his dad. I have written a
>> great
>> deal about the special relationship between Cuban fathers and their sons.
>> What I have corrected is your BULLSHIT about what life is like in Cuba,
>> because you don't have a fukkkkking clue! Which is obvious from the
>> things
>> you have said.
> Nope. Reread your own posts. You jumped in to defend The Cousins,
> though not really, since it looks like you mostly want to impress us all
> with your vast knowledge of Cuba. Your mental switcharoos are
> astounding, and don't really support your cases for deep knowledge of
> Cuba.
Now you are simply LYING. I never defended them. I merely corrected
MISSTATEMENTS OF FACT! Only in your insane little world does that traslate
to MANIC SUPPORT for the cousins. I was very clear that the boy belonged
with his dad. That the Miami family were off base, that Marisleysis was a
NUT CASE. You are the one who wants things to be monolithic. That if the
cousins were wrong that means thet Cuba MUST be PARADISE! You and tour pal
started making wild claims about this HUGE 'MIDDLE CLASS" in Cuba and they
90 inch TV sets with 164 channel stero, and the feelts of Chauffer driven
limos and the rest.. Claims of the opulant food and lives of liesure in
Cuba.. The grand splendor of the place. And how GREAT the life is, justy a
LITTLE --- wee bit -- smallest part of a dictatorship that NEVER NEVER
intrudes on daily life and how NO POLICE ... EVER intrude on the life of
"AVERAGE CUBANS" and taking this and stating it as FACT and insisting that I
am wrong when I disagree.
Maybe you missed the news. by DECREE ... PRESIDENTE FOR LIFE Castro just
announced he has DOUBLED the minimum wage in Cuba from $4.50 a month to
$9.50 a month! (Fidel Math) WOW!!!!!! Living in that LAP OF LUXURY you speak
about!! Buy NOW they can put that down payment on that CONDO on the beach!
>> > People aren't allowed to kidnap children in a civil society, even if
>> > they *think* they know what's best for the child.
>> Why are you on that subject? Do you finally realize how off base you
>> have been about life in Cuba? I have never said a word to support the
>> position of the Miami family.
> Yes you have.
No I have NOT! I have been consistant with supporting the FATHER. YOU
just see things sideways. No wonder you think that Cuba is a land of
AFFLUENCE and LUXURY
with a democratic dictator! What your small mind can't see is that a dog can
have lice AND fleas at the same time. That while Elian rightfully belonged
with his father, life in Cuba is shit for most Cubans. Elian is, however,
now living a life of privelidge in Cuba. He is now a "HERO OF THE
REVOLUTION."
>> However your understanding of both them and
>> life in Cuba are displays of ignorance. I have afforded you the
>> opportunity
>> to educate yourself to see just HOW wrong the claims you have made are,
>> and
>> you stubbornly REFUSE........................ Want to know what causes
>> incivility? It is the refusal to accept evidence that your opinion is
>> wrong
>> and continuing to abuse with MISINFORMATION........... Go to the
>> websites... And then get back to me.
> If this evidence is so factual and convincing, why aren't you able to
> present it yourself?
Furst of all ATC is NOT a "binary" newsgroup. So photographs won't carry
here. Also Verizon will not even send a photo. You bhave made MANY MANY fact
claims about life in Cuba. Claims that are utter BULLSHIT! The REAL CUBA
website confronts your BULLSHIT with REALITY of life in Cuba. The second
website confirms how I get TO Cuba.
One person has claimed you "ABSOLUTELY CANNOT TRAVEL TO CUBA FROM THE US" I
said I coudl and have and in return I was called a liar. The website shows
the flights from Miami to Havana and Holguin - - CUBA! BUT will you look at
either?????
Now TELL me, what other than external sources to corroborate MY
statements could I offer to give you "evidence" you'd accept within this
format? If ytou SCREAM REFUSAL to accept URLS then what can I do? The
Amazing thing is that while you DEMAND that I offer evidence, so far YOU
have offerened nothing but INSULTS.
>> > Oh the sacred Florida Cubanos think they are pretty damn special -
>> > unlike anyone else in the world. You said it yourself, having fallen
>> > for their propaganda, that Cubanos are just different.
>> > Spare me.
>> Look whoever you are. My wife and I have been married for almost 2
>> years
>> now. It took that long to get her and the boys out of Cuba. She just got
>> here late last year finally. Don't hit me with what the Cubans think
>> about
>> themselves, YOU haven't a clue! You have PROVED that with your posts here
>> as
>> have your two pals.
> Your wife of 2 years? You got her out of there? Was this arrangement
> something like a Russian or Filipino mail order bride?
Is there ANY depth to which you will not go with your BULLSHIT? No -you
seem NOT to follow well. If you must know, I was introduced to her by a
friend of mine who happened to be married to a woman from the same area, and
their mothers had been best friends. Now I grant you that our "courtship"
was rather brief.. (A year) and that it was unusual is that for most of it
we carried it on by-email with only an occasional trip to Cuba. But NO it
was NOT a MAIL ORDER BRIDE.. And you have a FILTHY MIND!
> No, I can't imagine any woman making her situation more pathetic, more
> tragic, in order to attract a white knight of a man who doesn't have too
> many options in the romance department.
Oh really? I have never gone long wanting for female companionship. But
it seems just like you are an EXPERT on Cuba, never having been there, and
not knowing anybody FROM there, you can also be an EXPERT on my sex
life.................
>> >> The caps are for EMPHASIS because Usenet doesn't like HTML. You
>> >> want to
>> >> vote on FACTS or personalities?
>> > You'd rather I went with personalities, right? Your personality
>> > specifically, as a Cubano by marriage <snicker>, and just trust
>> > everything you say - cuz facts don't make much of an appearance in your
>> > babblings.
>>
>> You made a number of FACT statements about life in Cuba. I told you
>> they
>> were WRONG - I offered you a website where you could educate yourself.
>> YOU
>> REFUSE and continue to insist you are right and insult me.
> Show me where I've stated something as fact that is implicitly wrong.
> I'm willing to eat crow if you can find some outrageous statement I've
> made, like all Cubans wear Armani suits and drive slick cars.
Oh Bullshit you will. IF you were at all capable of that you'd have
checked out the websites I offered you on Cuba. You have ZERO interest here
in the TRUTH!
> You could go to that site, and see if you could find something to refute
> what it shows. You
>> prefer to WALLOW in your ignorance andc infeat the rest of the world with
>> it.
> Or you can NOT fly off the handle and accuse me of being a member of your
> fantasy, resort-visiting, enemies of Cubanos.
You are the one who made FACT statements about the MIDDLE CLASS in Cuba
about Police in Cuba and LIFE in Cuba. You could look at the site and check
out how YOUR fantasy views of Cuba and REAL LIFE there jibe with each other.
As you constantly paint this pucture of the LUXURIOUS life for folks in Cuba
you don't want to be confused by the facts, by reality. That well over 10%
of the population of the island seems NOT to tell you ANYTHING at all. I
suppose that every year another 10% of the population desperately TRYING to
get out by legal and illegal means also does not tell YOU anything.
Again i note that YOU have thus far NEVER offered one thing to support
your WILD and UNTRUE claims about Cuba or the Cubans in America. Just wild
false witness for which you have NO firsthand knowledge.
>> NOBOY and get this - this means YOU who seems
>> >> to have ABSOLUTE FACT CLAIMS on EVERYTHING, NOBODY KNOWS exactly.
>> > Okay, if nobody knows then how can you claim Elian slept through the
>> > whole thing? You don't have the facts either, when you chose to take
>> > on
>> > EnEss, and spewed conjecture solely based on your marriage <snicker>.
>> Because that is the best information that there was that came out in
>> OFFICIAL proceedings. NOT .. get it WRONG all the time CNN... In the
>> courts.
>> > And I'm pretty damn sure Elian did not sleep through the whole thing.
>> HOW? I know you are pretty damn sure on EVERYTHING.................. What
>> are your sources? Have you READ the Coast Guard reports??????????????
> Have you?
Yes, as a matter of FACT -- I HAVE! Maybe you should read the ACTUAL
statement given by Donato Dalrymple to the Coast Guard. Byt WHY BOITHER ..
You ..... KNOW ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING! (Now - - my work actually had me read
that report including trascripts of the interviews, and the original
emergency call from the boat to the Coast Guard.) But I know that YOU
know MORE! Someday I would love to know HOW you come to this SPECIAL
knowledge on EVERYTHING!
>> >> Cuba. You attempt to clean up her claims don't help. Cuba is NOT like
>> >> "everywhere" or even "anywhere."
>> > Sure it is. Because people are people. Plenty of people just live
>> > their lives, love their families, take joy from where they are even
>> > under the worst regimes.
(FACT CLAIM ABOVE)
>> That part isn't the part I faulted. it was the claim of this HUGE
>> HUGE
>> "middle class" in Cuba with their 70 inch wide screen TV's with Dolby
>> 92.1
>> stereo and their Lamboghini sports cars and Armani suits... (RIDICULE)
>> that
>> I disagreed with. No they don't have "suburban" homes and California King
>> mattresses. They don't have state of the art programmable microwaves...
>> YOU
>> ARE CLUELESS!!!
> When have I, or anyone else, stated anything like the above? There
> hasn't been a single mention of TVs or beds or sports cars (or resorts
> for that matter) before you brought it up.
You didn't specifically menton TV sets.. Dearie - the process as I said
is "RIDICULE!" You made claims about the large "middle class" in Cuba.
Which, by the way, in a COMMUNIST nation is an ABSURDITY on so many levels
that it is side splitting. You just have NO idea of what you are talking
about - YET - you are absolutely STRIDENT about what you have ZERO knowledge
of.
> Which leads me to conclude that you have grafted an argument that exists
> only inside your head on to this one. I don't know who would say that
> that the average Cuban enjoys a 70" wide TV, but obviously you've got a
> devil dreamed up who would.
No Dear I am making FUN of your other claims that are ABSURD and VERY
VERY VERY IGNORANT!
>> > Guess what?! People can still be happy even under Stalin (my personal
>> > biggest of the bads.) People who had little contact with his NKVD and
>> > survived the famines and the war, could still love their country
>> > despite
>> > the deprivations and never think they could be happier anywhere else.
>> > That's just how it is!
>> Know many people who lived under Stalin too do ya? Did they have a
>> HUGE
>> middle class with 90 inch wide screen TV's too? Lots of steak and trips
>> around the world did they? Just living in the LAP of luxury there in them
>> police states.
> Are all those things the necessities for happiness?
Dearie - again you are making fact claims; ie "people had little contact
with the NKVD" and the like. You state this as FACT! ABSOLUTE FACT! Just as
you state that people in Cuba have "little contact with the police." AND
dearie you are ABSOLUTELY FULL OF SHIT! How much more clearly must I say it?
I asked before, and you sluffed past it,
I asked if you know what the CDR was. "Committee For the Defense of the
Revolution." (You DON'T!) In Cuba the CDR is sort of a neighborhood watch
on steroids. The CDR CONTROLS - - EVERY aspect of life in Cuba. Since
EVERYTHING is the property of the STATE in Cuba, the CDR is organized to
watch over the state's property. This means if you are a Cuban - that the
CDR must approve your housing. If you are a bad little boy or bad little
girl you can have your housing taken away by the CDR. The CDR is also the
agency where you get your ration booklets. (FOOD CLOTHING ETC) If you are a
bad little boy or little girl you don't get any rations. Isn't that special?
Also IN CUBA, to have employment you MUST be approved by the CDR. Any time
you are looking to switch jobs, are offered a promotion and the like the CDR
must APPROVE. The CDR knows everything you do and everything you say. Is
the CDR the police? Hmmmm kind of... but when they find somethign really bad
they just call the folks at State Security or the police and off you go.
Oh what do I know? Let's see I have a brother in law that is a pretty
prominent artist in Cuba. He has been "detained" (jailed) several times
becayse SOMEBODY in the CDR felt his art was "counter revolutionary" in once
case he used an "unacceptable color" in a painting. You shoot your mouth off
with ZERO understanding of what life is REALLY like for the people of Cuba.
NONE - yet you are intractible on the subject.. You behave like somebody
who holds themself out as THE source on the place, so much so that if FIDEL
had ANY questions about what was happening anywhere on the island, he'd call
YOU!
> I bet that if you were Jewish in Germany in 1940 you were
>> just having the time of your life partying all the time with your close
>> buddies in the Gestapo and enjoying the good life. I wish idiots like you
>> could be made to live even for a short time under one of the dictators. I
>> bet you LOVED Pol Pot!
> Huh? I think you've gone over the edge.
No I am RIDICULING YOU! You seem NOT to understand the process of
RIDICULE.
>> >> > OTOH, YOU (caps) are claiming to know absolutely how every Cuban
>> >> > ever
>> >> > feels about nearly everything because your wife (who I suspect is a
>> >> > myth) is from there.
>>
>> >> Every Cuban? I can pretty well say what MOST Cubans feel, those
>> >> who are
>> >> Fidelistas, and those who are not.
>>
>> > *So for the small sphere of this newsgroup (though I imagine you extend
>> > it far and wide) you suppose that you are the ultimate source of
>> > knowledge on Cuba.
>> What I am saying, and SEE if, with your limited intelligence, you can
>> get this. I know a BUNCH more than YOU and your pal!
> Which you haven't been able to prove, though you've tried, in Bill
> O'Reilly style, to scream it over and over again, IN CAPS, without
> bringing a decent argument to the table. Repeating an assertion, ad
> infinitum, doesn't make it true.
I note AGAIN that in this discussion - - - - YOU have made NUMEROUS FACT
CLAIMS about Cuba - - YOU have NEVER offered even ONE thing to support YOUR
claims!
I have disagree with your claims, and I have offered TWO sources both of
which you REFUSE to look at. Here is a THIRD............ My BET is you will
refuse to look at IT as well.
` krp >
NOTE:
>> >> > The child belongs with his parent. His parent lives in Cuba.
>> >> > That's
>> >> > where the child belongs.
>> >> No argument on that point.
Early in this conversation... Yet YOU claim my WILD SUPPORT for the Miami
family!
>> >> > As far as the benefits of staying in Cuba, Elian's education is
>> >> > likely
>> >> > to be better there. Say what you will about Communism, but it does
>> >> > make
>> >> > for good schools, better than our own pathetic example of public
>> >> > education. Most of my emigrant friends agree (and many are from
>> >> > repressive countries) that they would love for their kids to be
>> >> > educated back home and come to the US as adults.
PHOENIX'S FACT CLAIMS:
1. Educatiuon in Cuba is BETTER!
2. Communish has GOOD SCHOOLS!
>> >> And you "KNOW" this HOW? Did you know that a degree from a Cuban
>> >> University today is practically worthless outside Cuba? They just went
>> >> through a big flap with brazilians trained as doctors in Havana
>> >> FAILING the
>> >> exams to get a medical license in Brazil.
>> > Could it be because the Brazilian tests were in Portugeuse? (jesus h
>> > christ, dude.)
>> Are you stupid? What part of "BRAZILIANS" don't you understand
>> buttwipe?
>> Brazilians who PRESUMABLY speak their own language went to study medicine
>> in Havana.
>> Of course in your up the ass world NOBODY understands more than one
>> language.
> Somebody in my world speaks 3 languages and reads 5. Damn foreigners!
> But if he had to study something like medicine or surgery or chemistry,
> I know exactly which language he'd feel competent enough to study
> something so difficult and specific.
Well honeypot - IF they ahd a huge problem with LANGUAGE (Spanish -
Portugese) don't you think they'd have FLUNKED OUT of the mdical school?
BY THE WAY... AGAIN - - - the medical exams were given IN Brazil IN their
native language............... DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
> Even those with several languages under their belts will be better at
> learning something demanding in their first, native, tongue.
You are abusing the shit out of RATIONALIZATION, you know that don't
you?
>> NOBODY on the planet! I won't even go into a comparison between
>> Spanish and Portugese.
> No, please do. It's a conversation I've had before with professors and
> such. I'd LOVE to hear how you compare Spanish and Portuguese.
Why should I even TRY to confront the GREATEST LIVING EXPERT not only on
every aspect of life in Cuba, and ALL communist states, but also on
language?
>> > We were talking about Elian, right? Is he in college now? Or would he
>> > rather be in the Miami public school system right now? Do you know
>> > much
>> > about Florida public schools?
>>Generally public education has sucked, which is why I had my kids in
>> a private school. I also KNOW about Cuban schools but I simply CANNOT
>> wait
>> till you share with is all your EXPERTISE on the subject.
> It appears I don't need to because you already know that Florida has a
> horrible public schools system.
Okay not EDUCATE me on all the GREAT things abou education in Cuba from
your VAST VAST VAST VAST fund of KNOWLEDGE!
We agree Florida has a poor public school system. Now tell me just HOW the
schools in Cuba ere VASTLY BETTER!
>> Please TELL me ALL about the Cuban educational system since my stepson
>> who is 11 just came here
>> from Cuba last December. TELL ME AGAIN.... ALL about your VAST VAST VAST
>> knowledge of education in Cuba..
> Simply put, the kids there get educational basics that the Florida
> schools cannot offer. Simple things, nothing dramatic, like the kids
> come out of schools there knowing how to read. And I doubt they have to
> go through metal detectors to get to class, or that they worry that
> their chums might come in one day with guns blazing.
Now that you have offered me SPECIFIC FACT CLAIMS - tell me your SOURCES
for these claims. Since you have ABSOLUTE KNOWLEDGE.....
Even though you have NEVER been to Cuba and don't really KNOW anybody FROM
there! Tell me about the process in Cuban schools. Tell me for example how
they teach "GEOGRAPHY" to what we'd call middle scholl students. I eman only
because you KNOW! TO AN ABSOLUTE FACT! And of course what do *I* know, only
having an 11 year old son who just came from the Cuban school system in
December. TELL ME all of youir VAST VAST VAST knowledge here so I can set
the kid staright!
..........................................
>> PLEASE keep lecturing me on Cuba. I find people who have NEVER been to
>> Cuba,
>> and don't REALLY **KNOW** anyone from Cuba to be SO entertaining as they
>> LECTURE me on it, because I have only been there a few times, and lived
>> there a while, have married a woman from Cuba, and have family over most
>> of
>> the island. PLEASE PLEASE feel free to share YOUR EXPERTISE with us -
>> that
>> you obtained HOW?
> <chuckle> I don't need to because I've never said as much. But I'm
> mighty sure that no matter how often you've been to Cuba (which might be
> never) that you haven't proved to me that you some sort of special
> knowledge of the place.
Look above at your FACT CLAIMS... 3 paragraphs up. No let me enumerate
your FACT CLAIMS..
1. Kids in Cuba get educational basics NOT offered in Florida Schools.
2. Kids in Cuba know how to read kids in Florida DO NOT!
3. They do NOT have metal detectors in Cuban schools.
4. They do not worry about "chums" coming to school with guns blazing.
Uh kido - the people in Cuba do NOT have a right to "keep and bear arms"
hence guns are illegal. The only time the people get guns is when they are
mobilized in a drill to repel an invasion, or as part of mandatory exercises
on the firing ranges.
I love your little games - - - you constantly make FACT CLAIMS about
life in Cuba and then play this "WHO ME" game........ You demand that I
PROVE you wrong, but when I offer the proof you RUN from it.
Got the guts to see ANY of the TRUTH???
Phoenix
>
> "Phoenix" <avian...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1cd9c322d...@news-server.carolina.rr.com...
> >> Are you stupid? What part of "BRAZILIANS" don't you understand
> >> buttwipe?
> >> Brazilians who PRESUMABLY speak their own language went to study medicine
> >> in Havana.
> >> Of course in your up the ass world NOBODY understands more than one
> >> language.
>
> > Somebody in my world speaks 3 languages and reads 5. Damn foreigners!
> > But if he had to study something like medicine or surgery or chemistry,
> > I know exactly which language he'd feel competent enough to study
> > something so difficult and specific.
>
> Well honeypot - IF they ahd a huge problem with LANGUAGE (Spanish -
> Portugese) don't you think they'd have FLUNKED OUT of the mdical school?
> BY THE WAY... AGAIN - - - the medical exams were given IN Brazil IN their
> native language............... DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
Okay, let me ask you a question that might help you a bit. Do you know
how many foreigners come to US medical schools and choose to go home to
pass their exams?
Let's suppose a Hindu or Hong Kong student learns medicine in the US.
They have some aquaintance with English throught their traditional
schooling, and become fully knowledgable with medicine in English. Do
you think that it would be a cinch for them to pass the licensing exams
in their own countries without learning the extremely specific
vocabulary for anatomy, medical tools, bio-chemstry, disease, etc, in a
different language than English?
You might think that Portuguese and Spanish are similar enough to slide
through, but you are wrong. Portuguese has some weird verb tenses and
quasi-inflexions that are closer to Latin than Spanish. Spanish is
closer to Italian and French than it is to Portugeuse. Yes, the casual
speakers of each can make themselves understood (just like Italians and
Spaniards, Danes and Norwiegans, Punjabis and Hindus) But there is no
way that the specific languages for somethng like medicine or law can be
fumbled with for for a passing grade on an exam.
>
> > Even those with several languages under their belts will be better at
> > learning something demanding in their first, native, tongue.
>
> You are abusing the shit out of RATIONALIZATION, you know that don't
> you?
>
> >> NOBODY on the planet! I won't even go into a comparison between
> >> Spanish and Portugese.
>
> > No, please do. It's a conversation I've had before with professors and
> > such. I'd LOVE to hear how you compare Spanish and Portuguese.
>
> Why should I even TRY to confront the GREATEST LIVING EXPERT not only on
> every aspect of life in Cuba, and ALL communist states, but also on
> language?
Who would that be? I'm talking about you and me.
> Now that you have offered me SPECIFIC FACT CLAIMS - tell me your SOURCES
> for these claims. Since you have ABSOLUTE KNOWLEDGE.....
> Even though you have NEVER been to Cuba and don't really KNOW anybody FROM
> there! Tell me about the process in Cuban schools. Tell me for example how
> they teach "GEOGRAPHY" to what we'd call middle scholl students. I eman only
> because you KNOW! TO AN ABSOLUTE FACT! And of course what do *I* know, only
> having an 11 year old son who just came from the Cuban school system in
> December. TELL ME all of youir VAST VAST VAST knowledge here so I can set
> the kid staright!
Are you a product of the US public schools? If so, then your own
inabilities to write coherently is ample proof that we are fucking up.
And you pick a poor example with Geography as it is the subject US
students seem to test on the worst. I don't think I need to cite the
surveys that prove, year after year, that US highschoolers can't find
England or NYC on a map.
>
> >> the island. PLEASE PLEASE feel free to share YOUR EXPERTISE with us -
> >> that
> >> you obtained HOW?
>
> > <chuckle> I don't need to because I've never said as much. But I'm
> > mighty sure that no matter how often you've been to Cuba (which might be
> > never) that you haven't proved to me that you some sort of special
> > knowledge of the place.
>
> Look above at your FACT CLAIMS... 3 paragraphs up. No let me enumerate
> your FACT CLAIMS..
yet you have denied nothing that I've claimed, only created straw men to
argue with rather than actually looking at what I've stated.
>
> 1. Kids in Cuba get educational basics NOT offered in Florida Schools.
>
> 2. Kids in Cuba know how to read kids in Florida DO NOT!
Have you seen the real literacy rates amoung the kids in our country?
>
> 3. They do NOT have metal detectors in Cuban schools.
>
> 4. They do not worry about "chums" coming to school with guns blazing.
>
> Uh kido - the people in Cuba do NOT have a right to "keep and bear arms"
> hence guns are illegal. The only time the people get guns is when they are
> mobilized in a drill to repel an invasion, or as part of mandatory exercises
> on the firing ranges.
Yep, which means, for better or worse, that kids don't have to worry
about getting indescriminately killed in school - hence, education is
more important than babysitting head-cases in the Cuban schools.
Shockingly, Cuba has very high literacy rates because kids are basically
safe inside schools with few causes for distraction. Is this a by-
product of a system that offers less choices - like TV, fashions, cars,
video games and guns/bombs to play with? Yes. But it is a positive by-
product of a dubious system.
Yet you refuse to see the advantage to this because you don't want to
surmise that there might be any advantage, no matter how arbitrary, in
countries outside of the US with oppressive governments you and I never
want to live under.
This really isn't a subtle point I'm making.
bel
Phoenix
>
> "Phoenix" <avian...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1cd9bf2dc...@news-server.carolina.rr.com...
> > Nope. Reread your own posts. You jumped in to defend The Cousins,
> > though not really, since it looks like you mostly want to impress us all
> > with your vast knowledge of Cuba. Your mental switcharoos are
> > astounding, and don't really support your cases for deep knowledge of
> > Cuba.
>
> Now you are simply LYING. I never defended them. I merely corrected
> MISSTATEMENTS OF FACT! Only in your insane little world does that traslate
> to MANIC SUPPORT for the cousins. I was very clear that the boy belonged
> with his dad. That the Miami family were off base, that Marisleysis was a
> NUT CASE. You are the one who wants things to be monolithic. That if the
> cousins were wrong that means thet Cuba MUST be PARADISE! You and tour pal
> started making wild claims about this HUGE 'MIDDLE CLASS" in Cuba and they
> 90 inch TV sets with 164 channel stero, and the feelts of Chauffer driven
> limos and the rest.. Claims of the opulant food and lives of liesure in
> Cuba..
Show me where I've said any of these things.
> >> However your understanding of both them and
> >> life in Cuba are displays of ignorance. I have afforded you the
> >> opportunity
> >> to educate yourself to see just HOW wrong the claims you have made are,
> >> and
> >> you stubbornly REFUSE........................ Want to know what causes
> >> incivility? It is the refusal to accept evidence that your opinion is
> >> wrong
> >> and continuing to abuse with MISINFORMATION........... Go to the
> >> websites... And then get back to me.
>
> > If this evidence is so factual and convincing, why aren't you able to
> > present it yourself?
>
> Furst of all ATC is NOT a "binary" newsgroup. So photographs won't carry
> here. Also Verizon will not even send a photo. You bhave made MANY MANY fact
> claims about life in Cuba. Claims that are utter BULLSHIT! The REAL CUBA
> website confronts your BULLSHIT with REALITY of life in Cuba. The second
> website confirms how I get TO Cuba.
I can find a website that shows one how to travel to Bhutan, but it
doesn't mean I've been there.
> One person has claimed you "ABSOLUTELY CANNOT TRAVEL TO CUBA FROM THE US" I
> said I coudl and have and in return I was called a liar. The website shows
> the flights from Miami to Havana and Holguin - - CUBA! BUT will you look at
> either?????
Did *I* ever claim no US citizen could travel to Cuba? No. So why are
you bringing this into our discussion?
>
> > Your wife of 2 years? You got her out of there? Was this arrangement
> > something like a Russian or Filipino mail order bride?
>
> Is there ANY depth to which you will not go with your BULLSHIT? No -you
> seem NOT to follow well. If you must know, I was introduced to her by a
> friend of mine who happened to be married to a woman from the same area, and
> their mothers had been best friends. Now I grant you that our "courtship"
> was rather brief.. (A year) and that it was unusual is that for most of it
> we carried it on by-email with only an occasional trip to Cuba. But NO it
> was NOT a MAIL ORDER BRIDE.. And you have a FILTHY MIND!
What's so bad about mail order brides? Or women looking for a way out
through marriage? It's an age old custom, not filthy at all.
The allure of saving someone, having a grateful life partner, has made
many a marriage.
> >> >> The caps are for EMPHASIS because Usenet doesn't like HTML. You
> >> >> want to
> >> >> vote on FACTS or personalities?
>
> >> > You'd rather I went with personalities, right? Your personality
> >> > specifically, as a Cubano by marriage <snicker>, and just trust
> >> > everything you say - cuz facts don't make much of an appearance in your
> >> > babblings.
> >>
> >> You made a number of FACT statements about life in Cuba. I told you
> >> they
> >> were WRONG - I offered you a website where you could educate yourself.
> >> YOU
> >> REFUSE and continue to insist you are right and insult me.
>
> > Show me where I've stated something as fact that is implicitly wrong.
> > I'm willing to eat crow if you can find some outrageous statement I've
> > made, like all Cubans wear Armani suits and drive slick cars.
>
> Oh Bullshit you will. IF you were at all capable of that you'd have
> checked out the websites I offered you on Cuba. You have ZERO interest here
> in the TRUTH!
Have you found any previous statements I've made about the comfortable
middle class in Cuba, yet?
> >> HOW? I know you are pretty damn sure on EVERYTHING.................. What
> >> are your sources? Have you READ the Coast Guard reports??????????????
>
> > Have you?
>
> Yes, as a matter of FACT -- I HAVE! Maybe you should read the ACTUAL
> statement given by Donato Dalrymple to the Coast Guard. Byt WHY BOITHER ..
> You ..... KNOW ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING! (Now - - my work actually had me read
> that report including trascripts of the interviews, and the original
> emergency call from the boat to the Coast Guard.)
Alright then! Did it say that Elian slept through everything?
> >> That part isn't the part I faulted. it was the claim of this HUGE
> >> HUGE
> >> "middle class" in Cuba with their 70 inch wide screen TV's with Dolby
> >> 92.1
> >> stereo and their Lamboghini sports cars and Armani suits... (RIDICULE)
> >> that
> >> I disagreed with. No they don't have "suburban" homes and California King
> >> mattresses. They don't have state of the art programmable microwaves...
> >> YOU
> >> ARE CLUELESS!!!
>
> > When have I, or anyone else, stated anything like the above? There
> > hasn't been a single mention of TVs or beds or sports cars (or resorts
> > for that matter) before you brought it up.
>
> You didn't specifically menton TV sets.. Dearie - the process as I said
> is "RIDICULE!" You made claims about the large "middle class" in Cuba.
Where?
> Which, by the way, in a COMMUNIST nation is an ABSURDITY on so many levels
> that it is side splitting. You just have NO idea of what you are talking
> about - YET - you are absolutely STRIDENT about what you have ZERO knowledge
> of.
I will ask again (and be ignored) where have I stated anything about a
Cuban middle class, TVs, resorts, cars...? These were brought to the
conversation by you for your straw man.
Yet, people can still achieve a type of happiness. In long talks with
folks who lived under the STASI state, who hated their oppressors,
despised the system, suffered under tyrants for a fucked up
theology/ideology, it has been clear to me that there still remained the
love of family and friends, and wonderful times to be had, despite the
other intrusive shit they had to live with.
A brief story - friend of mine grew up in Soviet Union. His father was
an brilliant economist who refused to join the party. His father was
thrown in jail a few times, and exiled once to Kurdistan. But still
their family had a life together, hunted mushrooms in the forests and
camped out, encouraged in school to get great educations, under the
constant surveillance of the KGB in never ending attempts to fuck with
them.
Since the fall, the father has become a pivotal player in Russia since
he never joined the party. He has become wealthy, but he also had to
send his 4 sons to the West, never to return, because Russia has become
a dangerous place for the children of rich and influential men (and is
somewhat dangerous even here.) There is a strong possibility that the
family will never be reunited and the parents in Russia will never see
their grandchildren.
Which type of government was better for this family? When were they
happier and had more normal relationships? I couldn't tell you, because
it's for them to answer - but it isn't automatically black or white.
And we can both pretty much assume that there are many, many Balkans who
pine for the days of Tito.
Now, I'm not trying to fight the long irrelevant war of Com vs Cap. I'm
just saying that there are relative merits to living inside different
systems in the real world - as long as there is peace (since war
obliterates all advantages.)
What I argued is that Elian's life is infinitely better with his
father, no matter where he lived (in a country without war.) That he
eats, sleeps, goes to school in an environment that doesn't
automatically cause him great suffering and conflict. Will it irritate
him or make his life hell at some point? Probably. But he won't be
prevented from seeking an education and being protected by his family.
Only *YOU* present a Cuban middle class, fantasize that I made the
presentation, and then berate me for it - when I've never contended that
life is a bed of roses in Cuba, just that it probably has it's own
version of normalcy that neither of us could deal with, but it's
certainly possible that Elian's family can. Whatever the drawbacks of
Cuba, Elian can still be living there and be alright.
>
> Oh what do I know? Let's see I have a brother in law that is a pretty
> prominent artist in Cuba. He has been "detained" (jailed) several times
> becayse SOMEBODY in the CDR felt his art was "counter revolutionary" in once
> case he used an "unacceptable color" in a painting. You shoot your mouth off
> with ZERO understanding of what life is REALLY like for the people of Cuba.
> NONE - yet you are intractible on the subject.. You behave like somebody
> who holds themself out as THE source on the place, so much so that if FIDEL
> had ANY questions about what was happening anywhere on the island, he'd call
> YOU!
Alright, let's take this example even if it doesn't exist. You say this
artist is prominent in Cuba, even though he's been subjected to
nastiness by the government. How would things be different for him in
the US, we might ask? Well, he probably couldn't support himself as an
artist here and would end up in an insecure, horrible, job of teaching
middle schoolers. Or he could work with an ad firm, or for a paltry
amount designing web pages. Artists aren't prized in this society;
their product has no relevance here - unless they can animate for Pixar
or Disney and then they have to produce the ugly, sugary images very
much like propaganda.
Ask your artist which he would prefer. Sure, he can own a car here, and
the wide screen TV that you say makes for happiness. But he will be
bought off with things for sacrificing his life's work. Maybe that's
what he would like ultimately, I can't really say - nor can you. But
there is definitely a choice, things to be lost and gained by living in
different cultures everywhere.
I'm reminded of the brilliant print makers in Poland and Czechoslovakia
who were instantly obsolete when the wall came down.
>
> > I bet that if you were Jewish in Germany in 1940 you were
> >> just having the time of your life partying all the time with your close
> >> buddies in the Gestapo and enjoying the good life. I wish idiots like you
> >> could be made to live even for a short time under one of the dictators. I
> >> bet you LOVED Pol Pot!
>
> > Huh? I think you've gone over the edge.
>
> No I am RIDICULING YOU! You seem NOT to understand the process of
> RIDICULE.
Sure. But I think you are very, very bad at communicating anything as
simple as ridicule. There isn't much but anger and hysterical froth in
your postings - and to be honest, I've stopped reading them completely
since the repetitive harangue isn't helping whatever rational point
lurks within.
bel
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
` krp >
> Okay, let me ask you a question that might help you a bit. Do you know
> how many foreigners come to US medical schools and choose to go home to
> pass their exams?
Precise number no. BUT let me tell you what I DO know. Most American
medical schools are internationally accredited. Do you know what THAT means?
That means that an MD granted from say Harvard Medical School is recognized
in most countries around the world. Care to tell me how many recognize the
MD gratned by the Medical School of the Americas in Havana???? I can wait
while you look that up.
> Let's suppose a Hindu or Hong Kong student learns medicine in the US.
> They have some aquaintance with English throught their traditional
> schooling, and become fully knowledgable with medicine in English. Do
> you think that it would be a cinch for them to pass the licensing exams
> in their own countries without learning the extremely specific
> vocabulary for anatomy, medical tools, bio-chemstry, disease, etc, in a
> different language than English?
You know that MIGHT hold water IF it had ANYTHING whatever to do with
REALITY! It doesn't. Ever hear much of people getting an MD from Harvard,
going home and FAILING the board
exams?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
HUH????????????????????/
> You might think that Portuguese and Spanish are similar enough to slide
> through, but you are wrong. Portuguese has some weird verb tenses and
> quasi-inflexions that are closer to Latin than Spanish. Spanish is
> closer to Italian and French than it is to Portugeuse. Yes, the casual
> speakers of each can make themselves understood (just like Italians and
> Spaniards, Danes and Norwiegans, Punjabis and Hindus) But there is no
> way that the specific languages for somethng like medicine or law can be
> fumbled with for for a passing grade on an exam.
YOU are as one would say in the venacular FULL OF SHIT and trying to
create a smokescreen.
>> > Even those with several languages under their belts will be better at
>> > learning something demanding in their first, native, tongue.
>>
>> You are abusing the shit out of RATIONALIZATION, you know that don't
>> you?
>>
>> >> NOBODY on the planet! I won't even go into a comparison between
>> >> Spanish and Portugese.
>>
>> > No, please do. It's a conversation I've had before with professors and
>> > such. I'd LOVE to hear how you compare Spanish and Portuguese.
>>
>> Why should I even TRY to confront the GREATEST LIVING EXPERT not only
>> on
>> every aspect of life in Cuba, and ALL communist states, but also on
>> language?
>
> Who would that be? I'm talking about you and me.
Why YOU the GREATEST EXPERT ON EVERYTHING!
> SPECIFIC FACT CLAIMS - tell me your SOURCES
>> for these claims. Since you have ABSOLUTE KNOWLEDGE.....
>> Even though you have NEVER been to Cuba and don't really KNOW anybody
>> FROM
>> there! Tell me about the process in Cuban schools. Tell me for example
>> how
>> they teach "GEOGRAPHY" to what we'd call middle scholl students. I eman
>> only
>> because you KNOW! TO AN ABSOLUTE FACT! And of course what do *I* know,
>> only
>> having an 11 year old son who just came from the Cuban school system in
>> December. TELL ME all of youir VAST VAST VAST knowledge here so I can set
>> the kid staright!
> Are you a product of the US public schools? If so, then your own
> inabilities to write coherently is ample proof that we are fucking up.
Your best shot at substantiating your FACT claims?
> And you pick a poor example with Geography as it is the subject US
> students seem to test on the worst. I don't think I need to cite the
> surveys that prove, year after year, that US highschoolers can't find
> England or NYC on a map.
PROOF? But of course you NEVER make FACT CLAIMS do you?
>> >> the island. PLEASE PLEASE feel free to share YOUR EXPERTISE with us -
>> >> that
>> >> you obtained HOW?
>> > <chuckle> I don't need to because I've never said as much. But I'm
>> > mighty sure that no matter how often you've been to Cuba (which might
>> > be
>> > never) that you haven't proved to me that you some sort of special
>> > knowledge of the place.
>> Look above at your FACT CLAIMS... 3 paragraphs up. No let me
>> enumerate
>> your FACT CLAIMS..
> yet you have denied nothing that I've claimed, only created straw men to
> argue with rather than actually looking at what I've stated.
Yes I have - you seem to have a language problem. You make fact claims -
I reply by saying they are BULLSHIT - that is about as blanket a denial of
accuracy as one can make.
>> 1. Kids in Cuba get educational basics NOT offered in Florida Schools.
>>
>> 2. Kids in Cuba know how to read kids in Florida DO NOT!
> Have you seen the real literacy rates amoung the kids in our country?
Have YOU? WHY don't you post them?
>> 3. They do NOT have metal detectors in Cuban schools.
>> 4. They do not worry about "chums" coming to school with guns blazing.
>> Uh kido - the people in Cuba do NOT have a right to "keep and bear
>> arms"
>> hence guns are illegal. The only time the people get guns is when they
>> are
>> mobilized in a drill to repel an invasion, or as part of mandatory
>> exercises
>> on the firing ranges.
> Yep, which means, for better or worse, that kids don't have to worry
> about getting indescriminately killed in school - hence, education is
> more important than babysitting head-cases in the Cuban schools.
> Shockingly, Cuba has very high literacy rates because kids are basically
> safe inside schools with few causes for distraction. Is this a by-
> product of a system that offers less choices - like TV, fashions, cars,
> video games and guns/bombs to play with? Yes. But it is a positive by-
> product of a dubious system.
They don't have to worry about dying from a psycho classmate. Just the
state.
> Yet you refuse to see the advantage to this because you don't want to
> surmise that there might be any advantage, no matter how arbitrary, in
> countries outside of the US with oppressive governments you and I never
> want to live under.
Advantage? Sure! Like the advantage of having almost no food. Never
having to worry about getting fat! GREAT ADVANTAGE!
> This really isn't a subtle point I'm making.
Right like a pile of shit behind an elephant. Not subtle at all.
` krp >
> Show me where I've said any of these things.
What part of the word "RIDICULE" sails over your head?
>> > If this evidence is so factual and convincing, why aren't you able to
>> > present it yourself?
>> Furst of all ATC is NOT a "binary" newsgroup. So photographs won't
>> carry
>> here. Also Verizon will not even send a photo. You bhave made MANY MANY
>> fact
>> claims about life in Cuba. Claims that are utter BULLSHIT! The REAL CUBA
>> website confronts your BULLSHIT with REALITY of life in Cuba. The second
>> website confirms how I get TO Cuba.
> I can find a website that shows one how to travel to Bhutan, but it
> doesn't mean I've been there.
Do you still have any teeth? I offered THREE website - two expail the
REAL life in Cuba. You continue to REFUSE to visit them or acknowledge them.
You may not have been the one who claimed that "Americans CANNOT travel to
Cuba" but you surely agreed with the claim and claimed I had nor proved I
had been there. The one website shows how Americans CAN and DO fly from
Miami to Cuba. That doesn't prove I was there, but I could send you a scan
of my boarding pass. But I doubt THAT would prove ANYTHING to you either.
>> One person has claimed you "ABSOLUTELY CANNOT TRAVEL TO CUBA FROM THE US"
>> I
>> said I could and have, and in return I was called a liar. The website
>> shows
>> the flights from Miami to Havana and Holguin - - CUBA! BUT will you look
>> at
>> either?????
> Did *I* ever claim no US citizen could travel to Cuba? No. So why are
> you bringing this into our discussion?
No you cvlaimed I "lied" about it and on another occasion claimed I
hadn't proved it.
>> > Your wife of 2 years? You got her out of there? Was this arrangement
>> > something like a Russian or Filipino mail order bride?
>> Is there ANY depth to which you will not go with your BULLSHIT?
>> No -you
>> seem NOT to follow well. If you must know, I was introduced to her by a
>> friend of mine who happened to be married to a woman from the same area,
>> and
>> their mothers had been best friends. Now I grant you that our "courtship"
>> was rather brief.. (A year) and that it was unusual is that for most of
>> it
>> we carried it on by-email with only an occasional trip to Cuba. But NO
>> it
>> was NOT a MAIL ORDER BRIDE.. And you have a FILTHY MIND!
> What's so bad about mail order brides? Or women looking for a way out
> through marriage? It's an age old custom, not filthy at all.
It is a perjorativend you know it.
> The allure of saving someone, having a grateful life partner, has made
> many a marriage.
Not in this case and AGAIN you simply know NOTHING about Cuba, Cubans OR
Cubam WOMEN!
>> >> >> The caps are for EMPHASIS because Usenet doesn't like HTML. You
>> >> >> want to
>> >> >> vote on FACTS or personalities?
>> >> > You'd rather I went with personalities, right? Your personality
>> >> > specifically, as a Cubano by marriage <snicker>, and just trust
>> >> > everything you say - cuz facts don't make much of an appearance in
>> >> > your
>> >> > babblings.
>> >>
>> >> You made a number of FACT statements about life in Cuba. I told
>> >> you
>> >> they
>> >> were WRONG - I offered you a website where you could educate yourself.
>> >> YOU
>> >> REFUSE and continue to insist you are right and insult me.
>>
>> > Show me where I've stated something as fact that is implicitly wrong.
>> > I'm willing to eat crow if you can find some outrageous statement I've
>> > made, like all Cubans wear Armani suits and drive slick cars.
>>
>> Oh Bullshit you will. IF you were at all capable of that you'd have
>> checked out the websites I offered you on Cuba. You have ZERO interest
>> here
>> in the TRUTH!
> Have you found any previous statements I've made about the comfortable
> middle class in Cuba, yet?
You made them.
>> >> HOW? I know you are pretty damn sure on EVERYTHING..................
>> >> What
>> >> are your sources? Have you READ the Coast Guard reports??????????????
>>
>> > Have you?
>>
>> Yes, as a matter of FACT -- I HAVE! Maybe you should read the ACTUAL
>> statement given by Donato Dalrymple to the Coast Guard. Byt WHY BOTHER ..
>> You ..... KNOW ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING! (Now - - my work actually had me
>> read
>> that report including trascripts of the interviews, and the original
>> emergency call from the boat to the Coast Guard.)
> Alright then! Did it say that Elian slept through everything?
No you said he SAW his mother drown and it was horribly traumatic on
him. The report said the boy was unconscious and did not remember seeing his
mother go. CONTRARY to YOUR claims of this HORIBLE HORRIBLE Trauma the poor
little boy SUFFERED.
>> >> That part isn't the part I faulted. it was the claim of this HUGE
>> >> HUGE
>> >> "middle class" in Cuba with their 70 inch wide screen TV's with Dolby
>> >> 92.1
>> >> stereo and their Lamboghini sports cars and Armani suits... (RIDICULE)
>> >> that
>> >> I disagreed with. No they don't have "suburban" homes and California
>> >> King
>> >> mattresses. They don't have state of the art programmable
>> >> microwaves...
>> >> YOU
>> >> ARE CLUELESS!!!
>>
>> > When have I, or anyone else, stated anything like the above? There
>> > hasn't been a single mention of TVs or beds or sports cars (or resorts
>> > for that matter) before you brought it up.
>>
>> You didn't specifically menton TV sets.. Dearie - the process as I
>> said
>> is "RIDICULE!" You made claims about the large "middle class" in Cuba.
> Where?
Eight here a few days ago.
>> Which, by the way, in a COMMUNIST nation is an ABSURDITY on so many
>> levels
>> that it is side splitting. You just have NO idea of what you are talking
>> about - YET - you are absolutely STRIDENT about what you have ZERO
>> knowledge
>> of.
> I will ask again (and be ignored) where have I stated anything about a
> Cuban middle class, TVs, resorts, cars...? These were brought to the
> conversation by you for your straw man.
You mentioned the middle class and that Elian was living in comfort,
MORE comfort in fact than had he stayed in Miami. I can understand you now
trying to get out of your claims.
You want to use GERMANY as your example of HAPPY people? Really?
Readup.
> A brief story - friend of mine grew up in Soviet Union. His father was
> an brilliant economist who refused to join the party. His father was
> thrown in jail a few times, and exiled once to Kurdistan. But still
> their family had a life together, hunted mushrooms in the forests and
> camped out, encouraged in school to get great educations, under the
> constant surveillance of the KGB in never ending attempts to fuck with
> them.
> Since the fall, the father has become a pivotal player in Russia since
> he never joined the party. He has become wealthy, but he also had to
> send his 4 sons to the West, never to return, because Russia has become
> a dangerous place for the children of rich and influential men (and is
> somewhat dangerous even here.) There is a strong possibility that the
> family will never be reunited and the parents in Russia will never see
> their grandchildren.
> Which type of government was better for this family? When were they
> happier and had more normal relationships? I couldn't tell you, because
> it's for them to answer - but it isn't automatically black or white.
Happier under Communism?
> And we can both pretty much assume that there are many, many Balkans who
> pine for the days of Tito.
You can ASS/U/ME all you like. You see to grasp at those straws a great
deal.
> Now, I'm not trying to fight the long irrelevant war of Com vs Cap. I'm
> just saying that there are relative merits to living inside different
> systems in the real world - as long as there is peace (since war
> obliterates all advantages.)
> What I argued is that Elian's life is infinitely better with his
> father, no matter where he lived (in a country without war.) That he
> eats, sleeps, goes to school in an environment that doesn't
> automatically cause him great suffering and conflict. Will it irritate
> him or make his life hell at some point? Probably. But he won't be
> prevented from seeking an education and being protected by his family.
Again you are OBLIVIOUS as to what life is like in Cuba. But you
continue to make FACT CLAIMS about it. No I don't claim to be a total expert
on Cuba. But next to you and your bullshit it make it seem as if I am.
> Only *YOU* present a Cuban middle class, fantasize that I made the
> presentation, and then berate me for it - when I've never contended that
> life is a bed of roses in Cuba, just that it probably has it's own
> version of normalcy that neither of us could deal with, but it's
> certainly possible that Elian's family can. Whatever the drawbacks of
> Cuba, Elian can still be living there and be alright.
You DID comment on the "middle class" in Cuba. IF you had stopped at the
point that Elian should be with his father there would never have been a
disagreement between us. But you chose to embelish that with fact claims
about Elian's life in Cuba (Cardenas by the way) which in the best light
were and are pure BULLSHIT! Elian is better off with his father because of
the strong bond between a Cuban boy and his father.
>> Oh what do I know? Let's see I have a brother in law that is a pretty
>> prominent artist in Cuba. He has been "detained" (jailed) several times
>> becayse SOMEBODY in the CDR felt his art was "counter revolutionary" in
>> once
>> case he used an "unacceptable color" in a painting. You shoot your mouth
>> off
>> with ZERO understanding of what life is REALLY like for the people of
>> Cuba.
>> NONE - yet you are intractible on the subject.. You behave like somebody
>> who holds themself out as THE source on the place, so much so that if
>> FIDEL
>> had ANY questions about what was happening anywhere on the island, he'd
>> call
>> YOU!
> Alright, let's take this example even if it doesn't exist. You say this
> artist is prominent in Cuba, even though he's been subjected to
> nastiness by the government. How would things be different for him in
> the US, we might ask? Well, he probably couldn't support himself as an
> artist here and would end up in an insecure, horrible, job of teaching
> middle schoolers. Or he could work with an ad firm, or for a paltry
> amount designing web pages. Artists aren't prized in this society;
> their product has no relevance here - unless they can animate for Pixar
> or Disney and then they have to produce the ugly, sugary images very
> much like propaganda.
How many times have you seen artists JAILED in America for the content
of their work? How many artiosts have you seen JAILED for using the wrong
color paint in the United States? Happens much, does it? As to him
supporting himself AGAIN you as the ART EXPERT............ FOREMOST ON THE
PLANET ------------- He did a show in Vienna, and his paintings sold for as
much as $5,000. Oh and in Cuba, that money goes to the STATE and NOT the
artist!!!!!He is also a professor at the university teaching art. I hate to
tell you this but lots of artists make a good living in America. Ever hear
of Thomas Clark?
> Ask your artist which he would prefer. Sure, he can own a car here, and
> the wide screen TV that you say makes for happiness. But he will be
> bought off with things for sacrificing his life's work. Maybe that's
> what he would like ultimately, I can't really say - nor can you. But
> there is definitely a choice, things to be lost and gained by living in
> different cultures everywhere.
You are reeally stupid aren't you? Ask an artist what they'd really
prefer..................... BEING FREE!!!!! DUMBASS!
> I'm reminded of the brilliant print makers in Poland and Czechoslovakia
> who were instantly obsolete when the wall came down.
>
>
>>
>> > I bet that if you were Jewish in Germany in 1940 you were
>> >> just having the time of your life partying all the time with your
>> >> close
>> >> buddies in the Gestapo and enjoying the good life. I wish idiots like
>> >> you
>> >> could be made to live even for a short time under one of the
>> >> dictators. I
>> >> bet you LOVED Pol Pot!
>>
>> > Huh? I think you've gone over the edge.
>>
>> No I am RIDICULING YOU! You seem NOT to understand the process of
>> RIDICULE.
>
> Sure. But I think you are very, very bad at communicating anything as
> simple as ridicule. There isn't much but anger and hysterical froth in
> your postings - and to be honest, I've stopped reading them completely
> since the repetitive harangue isn't helping whatever rational point
> lurks within.
Few people deserve ridicule as much as you. READ THE SOURCES I HAVE
GIVEN YOU............ THEN talk to me.,
Phoenix
>
> "Phoenix" <avian...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1cdaff865...@news-server.carolina.rr.com...
>
> >> One person has claimed you "ABSOLUTELY CANNOT TRAVEL TO CUBA FROM THE US"
> >> I
> >> said I could and have, and in return I was called a liar. The website
> >> shows
> >> the flights from Miami to Havana and Holguin - - CUBA! BUT will you look
> >> at
> >> either?????
>
> > Did *I* ever claim no US citizen could travel to Cuba? No. So why are
> > you bringing this into our discussion?
>
> No you cvlaimed I "lied" about it and on another occasion claimed I
> hadn't proved it.
No I claim in doesn't matter. We are on the Usenet, anything can be
said and nothing can be proven.
>
> >> > Your wife of 2 years? You got her out of there? Was this arrangement
> >> > something like a Russian or Filipino mail order bride?
>
> >> Is there ANY depth to which you will not go with your BULLSHIT?
> >> No -you
> >> seem NOT to follow well. If you must know, I was introduced to her by a
> >> friend of mine who happened to be married to a woman from the same area,
> >> and
> >> their mothers had been best friends. Now I grant you that our "courtship"
> >> was rather brief.. (A year) and that it was unusual is that for most of
> >> it
> >> we carried it on by-email with only an occasional trip to Cuba. But NO
> >> it
> >> was NOT a MAIL ORDER BRIDE.. And you have a FILTHY MIND!
>
> > What's so bad about mail order brides? Or women looking for a way out
> > through marriage? It's an age old custom, not filthy at all.
>
> It is a perjorativend you know it.
What?
>
> > The allure of saving someone, having a grateful life partner, has made
> > many a marriage.
>
> Not in this case and AGAIN you simply know NOTHING about Cuba, Cubans OR
> Cubam WOMEN!
Are they so very, very different from absolutely all other foreign women
in desperate straits?
> >> Oh Bullshit you will. IF you were at all capable of that you'd have
> >> checked out the websites I offered you on Cuba. You have ZERO interest
> >> here
> >> in the TRUTH!
>
> > Have you found any previous statements I've made about the comfortable
> > middle class in Cuba, yet?
>
> You made them.
Where?
>
> >> >> HOW? I know you are pretty damn sure on EVERYTHING..................
> >> >> What
> >> >> are your sources? Have you READ the Coast Guard reports??????????????
> >>
> >> > Have you?
> >>
> >> Yes, as a matter of FACT -- I HAVE! Maybe you should read the ACTUAL
> >> statement given by Donato Dalrymple to the Coast Guard. Byt WHY BOTHER ..
> >> You ..... KNOW ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING! (Now - - my work actually had me
> >> read
> >> that report including trascripts of the interviews, and the original
> >> emergency call from the boat to the Coast Guard.)
>
> > Alright then! Did it say that Elian slept through everything?
>
> No you said he SAW his mother drown and it was horribly traumatic on
> him. The report said the boy was unconscious and did not remember seeing his
> mother go. CONTRARY to YOUR claims of this HORIBLE HORRIBLE Trauma the poor
> little boy SUFFERED.
Nope. The only thing I wrote was that I doubted Elian slept through the
whole experience as you claimed. I said nothing about the specific
trauma he must have suffered.
It's not that hard to pull up the whole thread again and re-read it.
> >>
> >> You didn't specifically menton TV sets.. Dearie - the process as I
> >> said
> >> is "RIDICULE!" You made claims about the large "middle class" in Cuba.
>
> > Where?
>
> Eight here a few days ago.
Nope. Read back and see who really talked about these mythical middle
class Cubans. It wasn't me.
>
> >> Which, by the way, in a COMMUNIST nation is an ABSURDITY on so many
> >> levels
> >> that it is side splitting. You just have NO idea of what you are talking
> >> about - YET - you are absolutely STRIDENT about what you have ZERO
> >> knowledge
> >> of.
>
> > I will ask again (and be ignored) where have I stated anything about a
> > Cuban middle class, TVs, resorts, cars...? These were brought to the
> > conversation by you for your straw man.
>
> You mentioned the middle class and that Elian was living in comfort,
> MORE comfort in fact than had he stayed in Miami. I can understand you now
> trying to get out of your claims.
Nope. It wasn't me. Go look.
> The CDR knows everything you do and everything you say. Is
> >> the CDR the police? Hmmmm kind of... but when they find somethign really
> >> bad
> >> they just call the folks at State Security or the police and off you go.
>
> > Yet, people can still achieve a type of happiness. In long talks with
> > folks who lived under the STASI state, who hated their oppressors,
> > despised the system, suffered under tyrants for a fucked up
> > theology/ideology, it has been clear to me that there still remained the
> > love of family and friends, and wonderful times to be had, despite the
> > other intrusive shit they had to live with.
>
> You want to use GERMANY as your example of HAPPY people? Really?
> Readup.
Are you ready to dismiss a whole nation under the blanket of one
characteristic? Wow. No really, that's kind of shocking.
>
> > A brief story - friend of mine grew up in Soviet Union. His father was
> > an brilliant economist who refused to join the party. His father was
> > thrown in jail a few times, and exiled once to Kurdistan. But still
> > their family had a life together, hunted mushrooms in the forests and
> > camped out, encouraged in school to get great educations, under the
> > constant surveillance of the KGB in never ending attempts to fuck with
> > them.
>
> > Since the fall, the father has become a pivotal player in Russia since
> > he never joined the party. He has become wealthy, but he also had to
> > send his 4 sons to the West, never to return, because Russia has become
> > a dangerous place for the children of rich and influential men (and is
> > somewhat dangerous even here.) There is a strong possibility that the
> > family will never be reunited and the parents in Russia will never see
> > their grandchildren.
>
> > Which type of government was better for this family? When were they
> > happier and had more normal relationships? I couldn't tell you, because
> > it's for them to answer - but it isn't automatically black or white.
>
> Happier under Communism?
I really don't know. But I do know they feel ruptured as a family since
1992. Happier in the West? Maybe, but there has been a sacrifice.
>
> > And we can both pretty much assume that there are many, many Balkans who
> > pine for the days of Tito.
>
> You can ASS/U/ME all you like. You see to grasp at those straws a great
> deal.
How so? You don't think that after the Serbian war destroyed the region
that the years under Tito, who protected them to some extent from the
Soviets though he had his own issues, don't seem idyllic and simple and
pure?
Not everyone embraces change and calls it Freedom (especially when they
feel less free, somehow.)
> > What I argued is that Elian's life is infinitely better with his
> > father, no matter where he lived (in a country without war.) That he
> > eats, sleeps, goes to school in an environment that doesn't
> > automatically cause him great suffering and conflict. Will it irritate
> > him or make his life hell at some point? Probably. But he won't be
> > prevented from seeking an education and being protected by his family.
>
> Again you are OBLIVIOUS as to what life is like in Cuba. But you
> continue to make FACT CLAIMS about it. No I don't claim to be a total expert
> on Cuba. But next to you and your bullshit it make it seem as if I am.
Oh cut the shit! I have absolutely no control over you or how you write
and argue. You have a plethora of ways to respond to me or anyone else.
That you responded badly this time is no one's fault but your own.
>
> > Only *YOU* present a Cuban middle class, fantasize that I made the
> > presentation, and then berate me for it - when I've never contended that
> > life is a bed of roses in Cuba, just that it probably has it's own
> > version of normalcy that neither of us could deal with, but it's
> > certainly possible that Elian's family can. Whatever the drawbacks of
> > Cuba, Elian can still be living there and be alright.
>
> You DID comment on the "middle class" in Cuba. IF you had stopped at the
> point that Elian should be with his father there would never have been a
> disagreement between us. But you chose to embelish that with fact claims
> about Elian's life in Cuba (Cardenas by the way) which in the best light
> were and are pure BULLSHIT! Elian is better off with his father because of
> the strong bond between a Cuban boy and his father.
Like fathers and sons don't have bonds anywhere else in the world.
Please.
I entered this thread to discuss the Crazy Cousins, my lack of respect
for their cause, and their gross manipulations of a little boy that made
me ill. You jumped in to defend them, telling me that I had no idea
what I was talking about. I expanded on my points about the Cousins and
you started a harangue about your authority on Cuba - which was apropos
of nothing I wrote.
Never did I paint a rosy picture of Elian's life in Cuba, except that he
is probably getting a better and safer education there then he could get
in south Miami.
> > Alright, let's take this example even if it doesn't exist. You say this
> > artist is prominent in Cuba, even though he's been subjected to
> > nastiness by the government. How would things be different for him in
> > the US, we might ask? Well, he probably couldn't support himself as an
> > artist here and would end up in an insecure, horrible, job of teaching
> > middle schoolers. Or he could work with an ad firm, or for a paltry
> > amount designing web pages. Artists aren't prized in this society;
> > their product has no relevance here - unless they can animate for Pixar
> > or Disney and then they have to produce the ugly, sugary images very
> > much like propaganda.
>
> How many times have you seen artists JAILED in America for the content
> of their work? How many artiosts have you seen JAILED for using the wrong
> color paint in the United States? Happens much, does it? As to him
> supporting himself AGAIN you as the ART EXPERT............ FOREMOST ON THE
> PLANET ------------- He did a show in Vienna, and his paintings sold for as
> much as $5,000.
Right. Exactly my point. He can be pleased that he is a successful
artist by anyone's measure.
>Oh and in Cuba, that money goes to the STATE and NOT the
> artist!!!!!
That's not good.
He is also a professor at the university teaching art. I hate to
> tell you this but lots of artists make a good living in America. Ever hear
> of Thomas Clark?
No, lots of artists don't make good livings in the US. And the number
is rapidly dropping. It's not something we appreciate in this country
or venerate anymore. Like with poetry and literature, our society is
drifting away from it.
Since your BIL is appreciated and venerated, since he can make his art
and show it in parts of the world that do love art, he is a very lucky
guy compared to so many talented US artists who could never do the same.
Do you think your BIL could enjoy the same set of circumstances here in
the US that have made him a prominent artist in Cuba?
>
> > Ask your artist which he would prefer. Sure, he can own a car here, and
> > the wide screen TV that you say makes for happiness. But he will be
> > bought off with things for sacrificing his life's work. Maybe that's
> > what he would like ultimately, I can't really say - nor can you. But
> > there is definitely a choice, things to be lost and gained by living in
> > different cultures everywhere.
>
> You are reeally stupid aren't you? Ask an artist what they'd really
> prefer..................... BEING FREE!!!!! DUMBASS!
But the US doesn't have the freedoms for your BIL that he now enjoys in
Cuba. He is a success there, wrong colours and all. He has suffered,
and that is really bad, but he possesses a talent that he has turned
into a living - a rare and wonderful thing.
> > Sure. But I think you are very, very bad at communicating anything as
> > simple as ridicule. There isn't much but anger and hysterical froth in
> > your postings - and to be honest, I've stopped reading them completely
> > since the repetitive harangue isn't helping whatever rational point
> > lurks within.
>
> Few people deserve ridicule as much as you. READ THE SOURCES I HAVE
> GIVEN YOU............ THEN talk to me.,
You see, this is the way I operate - if I can respect someone's argument
on the Usenet, if they can pull it together and put forth some cogent
information that interests me, then I take their recommendations and
might visit the sites they point to. Otherwise, I don't bother since
I'm likely to come upon something identical to the idiocy and nonsense
the source is spewing on a newsgroup.
It's a form of self respect to represent one's views with coherence and
thoughtfulness - especially when referencing other material which can be
tainted by throwing around baroque insults and any suggestion of
hysteria.
But a website with your BIL's paintings would be really interesting.
bel
>
` krp >
>> >> One person has claimed you "ABSOLUTELY CANNOT TRAVEL TO CUBA FROM THE
>> >> US" I
>> >> said I could and have, and in return I was called a liar. The website
>> >> shows
>> >> the flights from Miami to Havana and Holguin - - CUBA! BUT will you
>> >> look
>> >> at > either?????
>>
>> > Did *I* ever claim no US citizen could travel to Cuba? No. So why are
>> > you bringing this into our discussion?
>> No you claimed I "lied" about it and on another occasion claimed I
>> hadn't proved it.
> No I claim in doesn't matter. We are on the Usenet, anything can be
> said and nothing can be proven.
Sure it COULD be proven IF you are willing to accept evidence given you.
BUT since you alread *KNOW* absoluteley EVERYTHING it would be a complete
waste of time for you since your mind is made up.
>> >> > Your wife of 2 years? You got her out of there? Was this
>> >> > arrangement
>> >> > something like a Russian or Filipino mail order bride?
>> >> Is there ANY depth to which you will not go with your BULLSHIT?
>> >> No -you
>> >> seem NOT to follow well. If you must know, I was introduced to her by
>> >> a
>> >> friend of mine who happened to be married to a woman from the same
>> >> area, and
>> >> their mothers had been best friends. Now I grant you that our
>> >> "courtship"
>> >> was rather brief.. (A year) and that it was unusual is that for most
>> >> of it
>> >> we carried it on by-email with only an occasional trip to Cuba. But
>> >> NO it
>> >> was NOT a MAIL ORDER BRIDE.. And you have a FILTHY MIND!
>> > What's so bad about mail order brides? Or women looking for a way out
>> > through marriage? It's an age old custom, not filthy at all.
>> It is a perjorativend you know it.
> What?
People who make that claim of "MAIL ORDER BRIDES" . . . INTEND it to
be a slur on both the woman and the man. First it implies a "desperate
subservient" woman who desires to be rescued and will sleep with ANYONE who
will get them out. And secondly it also implies a desperate failure of a
man who is a TOTALLY SEXIST PIG looking for a slave. THAT is why people
make that statement. It is 100% a deliberate slur. A reather desperate way
to try to gain the upper MORAL hand in a debate and to negate the power of
firsthand experience in this case.
>> > The allure of saving someone, having a grateful life partner, has made
>> > many a marriage.
SEE!!!!!!
>> Not in this case and AGAIN you simply know NOTHING about Cuba, Cubans
>> OR
>> Cubam WOMEN!
> Are they so very, very different from absolutely all other foreign women
> in desperate straits?
Boy you just won't let loose of your DESPERATION PLAY will you? You HAVE
to make something fit here. Can't deal with the topic so you try to make it
PERSONAL.
Actually she was a magistrate in a tax court there. There was no desperation
to leave. She is NOT a "Fidel hater" she isn't a wild eyed maniac like you
TRY to portray the Cubans in Miami. You have all these CAST IN CONCRETE
stereotypes of people in that little pointy head of yours. You toss
judgments on people all over the place. You form GRANITE opinions on
NOTHING!
Juan Miguel Gozales could be a flesh eating cannibal for all you know.
You praise him as SAINT JUAN.............. He's actually a pretty decent
guy. He is also fairly typical of Cuban dads and VERY devoted to his
children. You want this pissing contest with me, you have a ZERO fund of
information on Cuba. ZEEEEE ROWE NADA! ZILCH! You have made stupid
comments on life in Cuba and people both in Cuba and America. Not only don't
you KNOW any FACTS, you have no UNDERSTANDING of people and apparently NO
compassion for them. Maybe if you understood the people, their feelings,
their culture, you might be able to understand Cubans here and in Cuba. You
didplay NO such ability here!
>> >> Oh Bullshit you will. IF you were at all capable of that you'd
>> >> have
>> >> checked out the websites I offered you on Cuba. You have ZERO interest
>> >> here
>> >> in the TRUTH!
>> > Have you found any previous statements I've made about the comfortable
>> > middle class in Cuba, yet?
>> You made them.
> Where?
Right in this forum just about a week ago now. I can understand WHY
you'd wish to distance yourself from them. They were THAT ignorant.
>> >> >> HOW? I know you are pretty damn sure on
>> >> >> EVERYTHING..................
>> >> >> What
>> >> >> are your sources? Have you READ the Coast Guard
>> >> >> reports??????????????
>> >>
>> >> > Have you?
>> >>
>> >> Yes, as a matter of FACT -- I HAVE! Maybe you should read the
>> >> ACTUAL
>> >> statement given by Donato Dalrymple to the Coast Guard. Byt WHY BOTHER
>> >> ..
>> >> You ..... KNOW ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING! (Now - - my work actually had
>> >> me read
>> >> that report including trascripts of the interviews, and the original
>> >> emergency call from the boat to the Coast Guard.)
>> > Alright then! Did it say that Elian slept through everything?
>> No you said he SAW his mother drown and it was horribly traumatic on
>> him. The report said the boy was unconscious and did not remember seeing
>> his
>> mother go. CONTRARY to YOUR claims of this HORIBLE HORRIBLE Trauma the
>> poor
>> little boy SUFFERED.
> Nope. The only thing I wrote was that I doubted Elian slept through the
> whole experience as you claimed. I said nothing about the specific
> trauma he must have suffered.
Now I am really writing you off as a LIAR here. You are contradicting
your earlier statements. And I usually won't go much past this point with
people like you.
> It's not that hard to pull up the whole thread again and re-read it.
Then DO it and see your damn foolish claims.
>> >> You didn't specifically menton TV sets.. Dearie - the process as I
>> >> said
>> >> is "RIDICULE!" You made claims about the large "middle class" in Cuba.
>>
>> > Where?
>> Eight here a few days ago.
> Nope. Read back and see who really talked about these mythical middle
> class Cubans. It wasn't me.
It wasn't me. Who else is arguing with me here? EnEss dropped out pretty
much after the first round or two.
>> >> Which, by the way, in a COMMUNIST nation is an ABSURDITY on so many
>> >> levels
>> >> that it is side splitting. You just have NO idea of what you are
>> >> talking
>> >> about - YET - you are absolutely STRIDENT about what you have ZERO
>> >> knowledge
>> >> of.
>>
>> > I will ask again (and be ignored) where have I stated anything about a
>> > Cuban middle class, TVs, resorts, cars...? These were brought to the
>> > conversation by you for your straw man.
>>
>> You mentioned the middle class and that Elian was living in comfort,
>> MORE comfort in fact than had he stayed in Miami. I can understand you
>> now
>> trying to get out of your claims.
> Nope. It wasn't me. Go look.
WHY? You are the one arguing with me.
>> The CDR knows everything you do and everything you say. Is
>> >> the CDR the police? Hmmmm kind of... but when they find somethign
>> >> really
>> >> bad
>> >> they just call the folks at State Security or the police and off you
>> >> go.
>>
>> > Yet, people can still achieve a type of happiness. In long talks with
>> > folks who lived under the STASI state, who hated their oppressors,
>> > despised the system, suffered under tyrants for a fucked up
>> > theology/ideology, it has been clear to me that there still remained
>> > the
>> > love of family and friends, and wonderful times to be had, despite the
>> > other intrusive shit they had to live with.
>>
>> You want to use GERMANY as your example of HAPPY people? Really?
>> Readup.
> Are you ready to dismiss a whole nation under the blanket of one
> characteristic? Wow. No really, that's kind of shocking.
Your problem is that *I* am part German, I HAVE alsdo been to Germany.
Pretty much over the whole country other than the far north. That's where I
get my STUBBORN from. But you are the one making BLANKET statements here,
not me. You refer to Russia. A nation where almost 70% of the men are
alcoholics. And claim that they all were DELERIOUSLY HAPPY uunder Communism.
And now are miserable wretches.............
>> > A brief story - friend of mine grew up in Soviet Union. His father was
>> > an brilliant economist who refused to join the party. His father was
>> > thrown in jail a few times, and exiled once to Kurdistan. But still
>> > their family had a life together, hunted mushrooms in the forests and
>> > camped out, encouraged in school to get great educations, under the
>> > constant surveillance of the KGB in never ending attempts to fuck with
>> > them.
>>
>> > Since the fall, the father has become a pivotal player in Russia since
>> > he never joined the party. He has become wealthy, but he also had to
>> > send his 4 sons to the West, never to return, because Russia has become
>> > a dangerous place for the children of rich and influential men (and is
>> > somewhat dangerous even here.) There is a strong possibility that the
>> > family will never be reunited and the parents in Russia will never see
>> > their grandchildren.
>>
>> > Which type of government was better for this family? When were they
>> > happier and had more normal relationships? I couldn't tell you,
>> > because
>> > it's for them to answer - but it isn't automatically black or white.
>> Happier under Communism?
> I really don't know. But I do know they feel ruptured as a family since
> 1992. Happier in the West? Maybe, but there has been a sacrifice.
What was the sacrifices of those who left many nations since 1492 to
settle other lands? Or even probably before that when nomadic humans
populated an entire planet. Life is full of changes and nostalgia. I was
born in Chicago I wish I could go back to those days, I moved as a kid to
Milwaukee and grew up there. I miss those "Happy Days" too that's nostalgia.
But life moves on. We also tend, over time, to glorify memory much more
than it deserves.
>> > And we can both pretty much assume that there are many, many Balkans
>> > who
>> > pine for the days of Tito.
>> You can ASS/U/ME all you like. You see to grasp at those straws a
>> great
>> deal.
> How so? You don't think that after the Serbian war destroyed the region
> that the years under Tito, who protected them to some extent from the
> Soviets though he had his own issues, don't seem idyllic and simple and
> pure?
I don't know - does it make a difference if you cross the street and
are killed by a Honda Civic or killed by a speeding Peterbuilt truck? Dead
is dead. Tyrrany that kills you is no different from a different color
tyrrany that kills you and robs you. You want me to make a distinction
between Ted Bundy killing a woman, and John Wayne Gacy killing a woman and
eating her afterwards. You know . . I really don't think she's mind being
eaten. BECAUSE SHE 'S DEAD!!!!!!!!!!
> Not everyone embraces change and calls it Freedom (especially when they
> feel less free, somehow.)
There are people in America that LONG fore the wonders of Communism.
They can have it right now. Get in a raft and paddle the other way! Or hell
they can FLY there and claim political asylum in Cuba and they can have your
"GOOD LIFE" in Cuba!
>> > What I argued is that Elian's life is infinitely better with his
>> > father, no matter where he lived (in a country without war.) That he
>> > eats, sleeps, goes to school in an environment that doesn't
>> > automatically cause him great suffering and conflict. Will it irritate
>> > him or make his life hell at some point? Probably. But he won't be
>> > prevented from seeking an education and being protected by his family.
>>
>> Again you are OBLIVIOUS as to what life is like in Cuba. But you
>> continue to make FACT CLAIMS about it. No I don't claim to be a total
>> expert
>> on Cuba. But next to you and your bullshit it make it seem as if I am.
> Oh cut the shit! I have absolutely no control over you or how you write
> and argue. You have a plethora of ways to respond to me or anyone else.
> That you responded badly this time is no one's fault but your own.
I responded in the way you deserve. RIDICULE! You have made many damn
foolish statements, you REFUSE to look at ANY evidence that shows your
opinions are wrong.
And you try to maintain that REFUSING to look at those things places you in
a higher position of credibility. So I deal with you with contempt because
you EARN IT!
>> > Only *YOU* present a Cuban middle class, fantasize that I made the
>> > presentation, and then berate me for it - when I've never contended
>> > that
>> > life is a bed of roses in Cuba, just that it probably has it's own
>> > version of normalcy that neither of us could deal with, but it's
>> > certainly possible that Elian's family can. Whatever the drawbacks of
>> > Cuba, Elian can still be living there and be alright.
>> You DID comment on the "middle class" in Cuba. IF you had stopped at
>> the
>> point that Elian should be with his father there would never have been a
>> disagreement between us. But you chose to embelish that with fact claims
>> about Elian's life in Cuba (Cardenas by the way) which in the best light
>> were and are pure BULLSHIT! Elian is better off with his father because
>> of
>> the strong bond between a Cuban boy and his father.
> Like fathers and sons don't have bonds anywhere else in the world.
> Please.
You wallow in stupidity like it was mink oil. Your mind boggling LACK of
knowledge is overwhelming. No dearie fathers and sons do NOT have bonds "ALL
OVER DER VELT!
Taking a sociological view, we could start with America where fathers and
sons generally are VERY estranged. (Can you find exceptions? Sure! We are
talking general trends here.)
From a sociological view, in the Spanish cultures, especially those of Latin
America are extremely strong. They are not like their American neighbors in
a society where the father has largely been emasculated with respect to the
family in general and children in specific. WHY - oh BRANIAC do you think
the U.S. has to have a program on Responsible Fatherhood?
The Cuban father is devoted. The Cuban mother is supportive of the
father child relationship UNLIKE her North American SISTER who is AT WAR
with the fathers. The Cuban woman is also devoted to family. ALL of her
efforts are to make the family healthy and safe. It is a VERY different
culture. And SMART ASS Americans could do well to listen to them, IF you
could SHUT UP long enough to listen.
> I entered this thread to discuss the Crazy Cousins, my lack of respect
> for their cause, and their gross manipulations of a little boy that made
> me ill. You jumped in to defend them, telling me that I had no idea
> what I was talking about. I expanded on my points about the Cousins and
> you started a harangue about your authority on Cuba - which was apropos
> of nothing I wrote.
I did NOT defend the family - NOT COUSINS -- AGAIN......... Rosario is
the GREAT UNCLE to Elian! He is Elian's mother's uncle. GOT IT! Jesus Christ
PLEASE get at least ONE fact right. JUST ONE! Marisleysis is a COUSIN...
what 3rd maybe? You go on and on an on and on with your VENOM. And NO real
knowledge. You went ON about Elian's life in Cuba. And you are TOTALLY
CLUELESS - but you have intractible opinions. You litterally boggle the mind
with how RIGID you are!
> Never did I paint a rosy picture of Elian's life in Cuba, except that he
> is probably getting a better and safer education there then he could get
> in south Miami.
No you went on about his "comfortable middle class life" in
Cuba......... Equated ot to middle class life here. IN TRUTH -- IF you knew
jack shit, which YOU do NOT,
Elian is living a life of LUXURY by CUBAN standards. He is a "hero of the
revolution." Somethbign you just don't get and CANNOT get apparantly. That
happens when your mind is mad eup and you REFUSE to allow yourself to be
confused by ANY facts at all!
>> > Alright, let's take this example even if it doesn't exist. You say
>> > this
>> > artist is prominent in Cuba, even though he's been subjected to
>> > nastiness by the government. How would things be different for him in
>> > the US, we might ask? Well, he probably couldn't support himself as an
>> > artist here and would end up in an insecure, horrible, job of teaching
>> > middle schoolers. Or he could work with an ad firm, or for a paltry
>> > amount designing web pages. Artists aren't prized in this society;
>> > their product has no relevance here - unless they can animate for Pixar
>> > or Disney and then they have to produce the ugly, sugary images very
>> > much like propaganda.
>> How many times have you seen artists JAILED in America for the
>> content
>> of their work? How many artiosts have you seen JAILED for using the wrong
>> color paint in the United States? Happens much, does it? As to him
>> supporting himself AGAIN you as the ART EXPERT............ FOREMOST ON
>> THE
>> PLANET ------------- He did a show in Vienna, and his paintings sold for
>> as
>> much as $5,000.
> Right. Exactly my point. He can be pleased that he is a successful
> artist by anyone's measure.
You are STOOOOOOOOOOOPIDDDD...... How can you be pleased when you have
NO freedom? How can you be pleased that while your paintings sell for
thousands of dollars, your child only sees a professor's pay of $30 a month?
How can you be pleased when your 5 year old daughter has to wear shoes 2
sizes too small because you CANNOT get her new shoes EVEN IF you had the
money? How can you be pleased when some asshole complains to the CDR and you
are "detained" (jailed) for a month of "questioning" because you used the
wrong color of paint in your picture according to the person who turned you
in?
Your FOOLISH notion is that IF he were here living and painting he WOULD
be living a life of great comfort. You just are PIH HEADED STUPID.
> >Oh and in Cuba, that money goes to the STATE and NOT the
>> artist!!!!!
> That's not good.
THAT'S COMMUNISM!!!!!!!!! AIn;'t it GREAT?
> He is also a professor at the university teaching art. I hate to
>> tell you this but lots of artists make a good living in America. Ever
>> hear
>> of Thomas Clark?
> No, lots of artists don't make good livings in the US. And the number
> is rapidly dropping. It's not something we appreciate in this country
> or venerate anymore. Like with poetry and literature, our society is
> drifting away from it.
Take a look at all the art and frame shops near you. Art has changed.
Today you do your work, it is put on litho or a similar system, and instead
of working a year to make ONE painting to sell for $3,000 you have it as a
litho and sell copies for $50,000........................ There is an artist
(brain fart can't recall his name) who does paintings of rustic home scenes
and lectures who makes several MILLIONS of dollars a year. Art is in great
shape here, it has just moved with technology.
> Since your BIL is appreciated and venerated, since he can make his art
> and show it in parts of the world that do love art, he is a very lucky
> guy compared to so many talented US artists who could never do the same.
Well another STUPID statement. There are damn FEW artists in the world
on his level. There is likely to be a day since some of his art escapes the
control of the nation in Cuba, that he will be remembered as one of the
"masters" in art. At least that is what some museum curators say about his
art, INCLUDING here and in the UK.... But what do THEY know, they should
check with YOU!
> Do you think your BIL could enjoy the same set of circumstances here in
> the US that have made him a prominent artist in Cuba?
More so. You are just CLUELESS!! TOTALLY and unabashedly CLUELESS! God
the subject range of things you have EXTREMELY RIGID OPINIONS about just
keeps growing by leaps and bounds. Now it is ART - the FOREMOST authority on
ART.................
>> > Ask your artist which he would prefer. Sure, he can own a car here,
>> > and
>> > the wide screen TV that you say makes for happiness. But he will be
>> > bought off with things for sacrificing his life's work. Maybe that's
>> > what he would like ultimately, I can't really say - nor can you. But
>> > there is definitely a choice, things to be lost and gained by living in
>> > different cultures everywhere.
>> You are reeally stupid aren't you? Ask an artist what they'd really
>> prefer..................... BEING FREE!!!!! DUMBASS!
> But the US doesn't have the freedoms for your BIL that he now enjoys in
> Cuba. He is a success there, wrong colours and all. He has suffered,
> and that is really bad, but he possesses a talent that he has turned
> into a living - a rare and wonderful thing.
RIGHT Cuba is FAR FAR FAR BETTER! JEZUZ CHRISTMAS! IF he were here he
could franchise his work (lithos) and so on and be FREE to paint whatever he
wanted. Like I said he has been "DETAINED" several times in Cuba over
trivial shit. One case a woman in the CDR didn't like the COLOR he used, she
felt it was COUNTER-REVOLUTIONARY so he got detained fror a couple months.
I KNOW that in your VAST knowledge you know that Cuban prisons are LUXURY
RESORTS.... I don't know exactly where you get ALL this information about
Cuba... Or the Cuban people.. But I think wherever it is, it has the strong
aroma of BULL SHIT!
>> > Sure. But I think you are very, very bad at communicating anything as
>> > simple as ridicule. There isn't much but anger and hysterical froth in
>> > your postings - and to be honest, I've stopped reading them completely
>> > since the repetitive harangue isn't helping whatever rational point
>> > lurks within.
>> Few people deserve ridicule as much as you. READ THE SOURCES I HAVE
>> GIVEN YOU............ THEN talk to me.,
> You see, this is the way I operate - if I can respect someone's argument
> on the Usenet, if they can pull it together and put forth some cogent
> information that interests me, then I take their recommendations and
> might visit the sites they point to. Otherwise, I don't bother since
> I'm likely to come upon something identical to the idiocy and nonsense
> the source is spewing on a newsgroup.
Yeah under NO circumstance allow yourself to deal with the
FACTS.................
> It's a form of self respect to represent one's views with coherence and
> thoughtfulness - especially when referencing other material which can be
> tainted by throwing around baroque insults and any suggestion of
> hysteria.
> But a website with your BIL's paintings would be really interesting.
That is really NOT allowed in Cuba.................
EnEss
> "Phoenix" wrote:
>>> > Did *I* ever claim no US citizen could travel to Cuba? No. So why are
>>> > you bringing this into our discussion?
>>> No you claimed I "lied" about it and on another occasion claimed I
>>> hadn't proved it.
I have never heard of anyone in the US traveling to Cuba from anywhere in
the US. The people I know who have traveled there and have flown to Mexico
or Puerto Rico (or some other country) and then changed planes in the other
country to get to Cuba. To my knowledge, travel to Cuba from the US is
absolutely prohibited. It's also illegal to exchange US currency for Cuban
currency, so people who do visit Cuba from the US go to another country
first and exchange that country's currency for Cuban money. The same is true
when exchanging Cuban currency back to US money.
I don't know about your website. If you have a website that claims there's
air travel from Miami to anywhere in Cuba, this certainly doesn't jibe w/
anything I've ever heard, so I would be strongly inclined to discount it.
Sorry.
It's almost amusing (if it weren't so bizarre and rather pitiful) that you
keep ranting about these websites that you demand anyone who disagrees w/
you take a look at, and then continue condemning bel (and me) for not
looking at them as this irrefutable proof you claim to offer.
You need a wake up call: posting a URL is no kind of proof of anything.
Anyone can put a website. I'll repeat that in your own language: ANYONE can
put up a WEBSITE!!! And by extension of the same concept, on that website,
the creator can put up anything, INCLUDING pictures, which is PROOF OF
NOTHING!! You got that...NOTHING.
I could pictures of Bali on a website and claim they are images of the Czech
Republic and say "See what a tropical paradise the Czech Rebublic is??"
I could just as easily point you to some pro-Castro website I find out about
(I'm sure there MUST be ONE somewhere on the entire internet) and offer that
up as proof of how swell the Cubans have it under El General. I doubt you'd
be swayed or that you'd take it as proof of anything.
So stop being so ridiculous and yammering on and on about these websites
you're so sold on. You're making an ass of yourself and you're not
convincing anyone of anything, other than how badly you've lost it this
time.
>> No I claim in doesn't matter. We are on the Usenet, anything can be
>> said and nothing can be proven.
> Sure it COULD be proven IF you are willing to accept evidence given
> you.
You have no evidence. A website is no evidence. Bel is right...nothing can
be proven by a website.
> Boy you just won't let loose of your DESPERATION PLAY will you? You
> HAVE to make something fit here. Can't deal with the topic so you try to
> make it PERSONAL.
That's a laugh! What do you call what you've been doing the past week now?
You've just been spewing insults and making free use of the profanity left
and right. It sure doesn't make you much of a gentleman...which makes me
wonder what kind of woman your wife really is, married to a man who rants
and raves non-sensically on the internet, throws around insults and
vulgarity, and has no clue what a gentleman is, or how one conducts himself,
particularly in speaking to women.
Re Mrs. KRAP....uh, sorry...I meant to say MRS krp:
> Actually she was a magistrate in a tax court there. There was no
> desperation to leave. She is NOT a "Fidel hater"
So then by your own admission you're wrong. You stated earlier in the week
that there is no Cuban who wouldn't leave Cuba "in a heartbeat," given the
opportunity. Yet here, you turn around and state that your own wife had a
decent job in Cuba, does NOT hate Castro, and was not desperate to get out
of Cuba. That's something of a contradiction of your earlier claims, don't
you think?
>she isn't a wild eyed maniac like you TRY to portray the Cubans in Miami.
Bel never did that. I got no impression from anything she stated that she
thinks the Cubans of Miami are wild-eyed maniacs. However, you yourself are
in agreement that Elian's relations in Cuba, particularly the female cousin,
are nutjobs.
> Juan Miguel Gozales could be a flesh eating cannibal for all you know.
How absurd. At the time the battle over Elian was going on, the father came
across as a very sane, reasonable, stable and decent man....hard-working and
a loving and devoted father. This by contrast to the Miami relatives, who,
by your own admission, came across as lunatics w/ no regard for the law or
the commonly accepted idea that nothing surpasses the bond between parent
and child.
> You praise him as SAINT JUAN.............. He's actually a pretty decent
> guy.
There then. So what are you arguing about?
> He is also fairly typical of Cuban dads and VERY devoted to his children.
> You want this pissing contest with me, you have a ZERO fund of information
> on Cuba. ZEEEEE ROWE NADA! ZILCH!
Jeeze...
>You have made stupid comments on life in Cuba and people both in Cuba and
>America.
No she didn't. I didn't see Bel make any such comments, and I've been
reading your exchanges through pretty closely, just to see how far you plan
on going w/ this. You must have an inordinate amount of time on your hands.
>>> > Have you found any previous statements I've made about the comfortable
>>> > middle class in Cuba, yet?
>>> You made them.
No she didn't.
>> Where?
> Right in this forum just about a week ago now. I can understand WHY
> you'd wish to distance yourself from them. They were THAT ignorant.
Bel never made any such comments. I was the one who commented on a middle
class in Cuba, and many Cubans living reasonably comfortable lives. I never
said it's all Cubans, or most Cubans, or that they live in luxury. I never
said anything about Cubans owning 19" color TVs or driving luxury cars. Bel
didn't either. This is something you made up out of whole cloth, in a state
of advanced hysteria, confusing yourself to the point you're actually
convinced someone put such things forth as fact, when it was you who made up
all that part. You remind me of the Cowardly Lion in that scene from the
Wizard of Oz when he bellows out someone has pulled his tale. The scarecrow
looks around and says, "You did it yourself." That's you in a nutshell.
You pull your own tail and get so confused, you get hysterical thinking
someone else pulled it.
You have a real problem following posted discussions. This happens w/ you
all the time. You completely lose track of who has said what and flame
people for saying things someone else said. You completely lose track of a
discussion.
You really need to see someone about this...maybe get your eyes checked, or
maybe even consult a neurologist. Seriously, I wonder if something is going
on with you neurologically. I see a number of symptoms. This is the kind of
thing that happened to my father-in-law in his early stages of Alzheimer's
disease.
If you love your wife as much as you claim to, you'll do her a big favor and
get this checked out by a competent professional PDQ. I can tell you, it's
hell for the family getting help for someone w/ dementia who is too far gone
to be reasoned with. Spare them this agony and talk to your doctor about
being evaluated. There are medications that can slow down the progression
and make the symptoms more manageable.
>>> >> You ..... KNOW ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING! (Now - - my work actually had
>>> >> me read
>>> >> that report including trascripts of the interviews, and the original
>>> >> emergency call from the boat to the Coast Guard.)
>
>>> > Alright then! Did it say that Elian slept through everything?
>
>>> No you said he SAW his mother drown and it was horribly traumatic on
>>> him.
No, she didn't. Bel never said that. I was the one who speculated that he
must've witnessed his mother drowned and that it certainly would be
traumatic for him. Bel only said that she doubted he could've been asleep or
unconscious once the boat capsized, and I agree. Getting fully submerged in
water tends to wake or revive anyone who is asleep or unconscious. As he was
alone in the water when found, clinging to a life preserver, this supports
my assumption. He would not have been alive had he stayed asleep or
unconscious in the water after everyone else was gone. He would've drowned.
I didn't have to be there to tell you that...it's common sense. Not your
strong suit, I know.
The report said the boy was unconscious and did not remember seeing
>>> his
>>> mother go. CONTRARY to YOUR claims of this HORIBLE HORRIBLE Trauma the
>>> poor
>>> little boy SUFFERED.
Again, that was me who said that, and I stand by my assertion. I cannot
imagine any 5-year-old left deserted in the middle of an ocean, clinging to
a life preserver for who knows how many hours, in miserable conditions, no
food or water, not a soul in sight to comfort him, who would not be
profoundly traumatized by that scenario. I remember getting lost in a
crowded park, feeling terrified and sobbing because I was separated from my
family. As an adult, I have found many children in the same condition under
the same circumstances. And that compares in now way to the trauma of losing
your mother and all adult companions in a capsize and being left utterly
alone, clinging to a life preserver for who knows how long? If Elian wasn't
horribly traumatized by that, I can't think of a child anywhere in the world
who would be traumatized by anything.
If you doubt that's true, I'd say you know nothing of children, or basic
human nature, even. That would be a deeply traumatic experience for anyone.
And if Elian says he doesn't remember seeing his mother go, my guess is it's
because he has supressed the memory...or simply resists going there in his
mind to relive it. He was right there, the water would've awakened him and I
have no doubt he would've called and called for him mother after she and
everyone else disappeared. Any child would. I cannot imagine any person,
child or adult, being matter-of-fact about such a thing.
>> Nope. The only thing I wrote was that I doubted Elian slept through the
>> whole experience as you claimed. I said nothing about the specific
>> trauma he must have suffered.
> Now I am really writing you off as a LIAR here. You are contradicting
> your earlier statements. And I usually won't go much past this point with
> people like you.
No, she isn't. It was me who said that, as I've already established.
>> It's not that hard to pull up the whole thread again and re-read it.
> Then DO it and see your damn foolish claims.
Why don't YOU do it and see for yourself. It might not do any good
though...it may not be any easier for you to follow the discussion and who
said what going over it again than it was for you the first time around.
> It wasn't me. Who else is arguing with me here? EnEss dropped out
> pretty much after the first round or two.
LOL! That's because I've not gone psycho, like you. As for Bel, it's pretty
obvious she's yanking your chain, and having some amusement doing so. She's
looking to see just how far you'll go w/ this, and you're playing right into
her hand, taking the bait each time. But you're too clueless to see this,
and are making a complete and utter ass of yourself in the process.
>>> > I will ask again (and be ignored) where have I stated anything about a
>>> > Cuban middle class, TVs, resorts, cars...? These were brought to the
>>> > conversation by you for your straw man.
>>> You mentioned the middle class and that Elian was living in comfort,
>>> MORE comfort in fact than had he stayed in Miami. I can understand you
>>> now
>>> trying to get out of your claims.
>> Nope. It wasn't me. Go look.
She's right. She didn't do that. I was the one who said there is a middle
class in Cuba, and I stand by my statement. I never said it was a huge
middle class and that all these people are living in grand style. That was
your embellishment and then you adopted it as stated fact of someone. I
never said the people in Miami were living better than Elian's father in
Cuba, although, by the look of the house in the photos, it looked pretty
crappy. All I said was that I remember that Elian's father had a relatively
good job, by Cuban standards, and owned a farm and seemed to be making a
living wage and enjoying a reasonably decent life. He was not among the
deeply impoverished of Cuba.
Where do you come up with such things?
> Your problem is that *I* am part German, I HAVE alsdo been to Germany.
> Pretty much over the whole country other than the far north. That's where
> I get my STUBBORN from. But you are the one making BLANKET statements
> here, not me. You refer to Russia. A nation where almost 70% of the men
> are alcoholics. And claim that they all were DELERIOUSLY HAPPY uunder
> Communism. And now are miserable wretches.............
Bel never claimed any such thing. You are inventing whole parts of
discussions here.
>>> Happier under Communism?
Newsflash: In fact, some people in Eastern Europe did have better lives
under the Soviet Bloc and have suffered greatly since its fall, mainly due
to the selfishness and ruthlessness of the US. This idea that anyone is
better off under a "democracy" has not seen many 3rd-world or former Eastern
Bloc countries lately. Democracy for other countries is not at all the same
thing as Democracy in the US.
> What was the sacrifices of those who left many nations since 1492 to
> settle other lands? Or even probably before that when nomadic humans
> populated an entire planet. Life is full of changes and nostalgia. I was
> born in Chicago I wish I could go back to those days, I moved as a kid to
> Milwaukee and grew up there. I miss those "Happy Days" too that's
> nostalgia.
> But life moves on. We also tend, over time, to glorify memory much more
> than it deserves.
Oh my. The layers that peel back when the right buttons are pushed.
> I don't know - does it make a difference if you cross the street and
> are killed by a Honda Civic or killed by a speeding Peterbuilt truck? Dead
> is dead. Tyrrany that kills you is no different from a different color
> tyrrany that kills you and robs you. You want me to make a distinction
> between Ted Bundy killing a woman, and John Wayne Gacy killing a woman and
> eating her afterwards. You know . . I really don't think she's mind being
> eaten. BECAUSE SHE 'S DEAD!!!!!!!!!!
LOL! John Gacy didn't kill any women. He liked young boys. And he buried his
dead meat under his house, he didn't eat any of them. You're thinking of
Jeffrey Dahmer, probably...and he didn't go after woman either. He had a
thing for boys too. Not surprisingly, you're confused again.
I'm bailing out here. I have a great many other (and much better) things to
do with my time. And if you have any spark of sense left in your confused
brain, you'll do the same.
If your wife is really the terrific woman you say she is and you're so in
love with her, why don't you get off your friggin' PC and do something
productive w/ your time? Take your wife out somewhere nice for dinner and
maybe enjoy a quiet stroll afterwards somewhere pretty, hand in hand, under
the starlight, breathing in that beautiful spring ocean air, and remind
yourself what life is meant to be. Stop engaging in toxic flame wars. You
are making an ass of yourself and are being had for a fool. It's pathetic.
And, really, get a complete check-up. You seem seriously not well to me.
NS
(add sbc before global to email)
` krp >
>>>> No you claimed I "lied" about it and on another occasion claimed I
>>>> hadn't proved it.
>
> I have never heard of anyone in the US traveling to Cuba from anywhere in
> the US. The people I know who have traveled there and have flown to Mexico
> or Puerto Rico (or some other country) and then changed planes in the
> other country to get to Cuba. To my knowledge, travel to Cuba from the US
> is absolutely prohibited. It's also illegal to exchange US currency for
> Cuban currency, so people who do visit Cuba from the US go to another
> country first and exchange that country's currency for Cuban money. The
> same is true when exchanging Cuban currency back to US money.
You have never heard of MANY things. Yourt KNOWLEDGE is FULL OF SHIT!
While you and your pal makes these WILD CLAIMS, take a look at the following
link
http://www.abc-charters.com/
You will see twice weekly flights from Miami to Havana and Holguin, Cuba. So
your knowledge - AGAIN is 100% WRONG! Your ABSOLUTE KNOWLEDGE about
cyurrency again is something you just MADE UP. You can take a limited amount
of U.S. currency with you to Cuba, depending on the purposes of your visit.
You can also SEND monet to family in Cuba via Western Union, so again your
"ABSOLUTE KNOWLEDGE" is 100% WRONG! Cuba is mad at President bush because
of his recent added restrictions on Cuba, so they are imposing a 10% plus 8%
tax on use of U.S. currency - actually you MUST convert them to Cuban Pesos
convertible. WHY do you just make tyhis shit up? WHY? You might want to see
that American Eagle flies the charters to Cuba from miami. There are also
flights from New York and Los Angeles through other charter companies.
NEVER allow REALITY to bother you. AND..................... it is LEGAL!!!
> I don't know about your website. If you have a website that claims there's
> air travel from Miami to anywhere in Cuba, this certainly doesn't jibe w/
> anything I've ever heard, so I would be strongly inclined to discount it.
> Sorry.
Your problem is that you don't know what the hell you are talking about!
But that doesn't stop either of you two from making STUPID claims does it?
> It's almost amusing (if it weren't so bizarre and rather pitiful) that you
> keep ranting about these websites that you demand anyone who disagrees w/
> you take a look at, and then continue condemning bel (and me) for not
> looking at them as this irrefutable proof you claim to offer.
Yes it IS funny how you two REFUSE to look at them. Afraid to look at
them?
You need a wake up call: posting a URL is no kind of proof of anything.
> Anyone can put a website. I'll repeat that in your own language: ANYONE
> can put up a WEBSITE!!! And by extension of the same concept, on that
> website, the creator can put up anything, INCLUDING pictures, which is
> PROOF OF NOTHING!! You got that...NOTHING.
That's true - that company also has an 800 number you can call. They are
listed with the Miami Better Business Bureau. Can ANYONE also do that? They
are REGULATED dear.
But please do NOT look into it. Be sure that YOU are the foremost expert
living on Cuba. Whenever Fidel wats to know what is going on in Cuba he will
ask YOU first!
> I could pictures of Bali on a website and claim they are images of the
> Czech Republic and say "See what a tropical paradise the Czech Rebublic
> is??"
Yeah YOU could and YOU might!
> I could just as easily point you to some pro-Castro website I find out
> about (I'm sure there MUST be ONE somewhere on the entire internet) and
> offer that up as proof of how swell the Cubans have it under El General. I
> doubt you'd be swayed or that you'd take it as proof of anything.
Sure I can point you to one.
http://www.granmai.cubasi.cu/ingles/actualidad22-i.html
Oh I accept it as proof of the positions of the Cuban government.
> So stop being so ridiculous and yammering on and on about these websites
> you're so sold on. You're making an ass of yourself and you're not
> convincing anyone of anything, other than how badly you've lost it this
> time.
Yews I should just accept YOU as tghe FINAL and COMPLETE authority on
everything about Cuba.
>>> No I claim in doesn't matter. We are on the Usenet, anything can be
>>> said and nothing can be proven.
>> Sure it COULD be proven IF you are willing to accept evidence given
>> you.
> You have no evidence. A website is no evidence. Bel is right...nothing can
> be proven by a website.
Depends on the websiye, doesn't it? Now YOU would argue that the website
of General Morots showing their new Chevrolet does NOT prove that GM makes
the Chevrolet, after all, ANYONE can put up a website, right?
>> Boy you just won't let loose of your DESPERATION PLAY will you? You
>> HAVE to make something fit here. Can't deal with the topic so you try to
>> make it PERSONAL.
> That's a laugh! What do you call what you've been doing the past week now?
> You've just been spewing insults and making free use of the profanity left
> and right. It sure doesn't make you much of a gentleman...which makes me
> wonder what kind of woman your wife really is, married to a man who rants
> and raves non-sensically on the internet, throws around insults and
> vulgarity, and has no clue what a gentleman is, or how one conducts
> himself, particularly in speaking to women.
Yes - or some woman who claims to know ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING about a
country she has NEVER been to and knows NOBODY from there! But SHE KNOWS
absolutely everything that happens there second bysecond.
> Re Mrs. KRAP....uh, sorry...I meant to say MRS krp:
>> Actually she was a magistrate in a tax court there. There was no
>> desperation to leave. She is NOT a "Fidel hater"
> So then by your own admission you're wrong. You stated earlier in the week
> that there is no Cuban who wouldn't leave Cuba "in a heartbeat," given the
> opportunity. Yet here, you turn around and state that your own wife had a
> decent job in Cuba, does NOT hate Castro, and was not desperate to get out
> of Cuba. That's something of a contradiction of your earlier claims, don't
> you think?
Not exactly accurate. I did NOT say "NO cubans" I said almost no Cubans
wouold miss an opportunity to leave. HUGE difference. I also said that some
of the exceptions are what are known as "Fidelistas" that cult following of
Castro in Cuba.
>>she isn't a wild eyed maniac like you TRY to portray the Cubans in Miami.
> Bel never did that. I got no impression from anything she stated that she
> thinks the Cubans of Miami are wild-eyed maniacs. However, you yourself
> are in agreement that Elian's relations in Cuba, particularly the female
> cousin, are nutjobs.
No again you get confused. Maybe it is early senility. I said that in my
opinion Marisleysis was a nut case. (Her confinments to a psychiatric
hospital sort of did that for me.) I said that Elian's father was extremely
devoted to him and the boy to his father. You see, in Cuba fathers are very
integral in their children's lives. The FAMILY is a big deal in Cuban
culture, it has not had the war waged by lesbians to destroy the family that
anglo society has had here and places like Europe. A cuban family is a very
warm place to be. MAYBE - IF you understood Cuban culture you'd know WHY the
fight over Elian happened.
>> Juan Miguel Gozales could be a flesh eating cannibal for all you know.
> How absurd. At the time the battle over Elian was going on, the father
> came across as a very sane, reasonable, stable and decent
> man....hard-working and a loving and devoted father. This by contrast to
> the Miami relatives, who, by your own admission, came across as lunatics
> w/ no regard for the law or the commonly accepted idea that nothing
> surpasses the bond between parent and child.
You don't seem to understand at all. Yes Juan Migel came off as a very
sane man. But the point is that **YOU** have a fund of KNOWLEDGE here that
is precisely ZERO!
No I did NOT admit they came accross as Lunatics. I said that Marisleysis
was a bit of a NUT.... I'd say that DOnato Dalrymple (not Cuban) came
accross as an opportunistic nut.
I did NOT say anyone else did.
>> You praise him as SAINT JUAN.............. He's actually a pretty decent
>> guy.
> There then. So what are you arguing about?
You and your pal's bullshit arguments about what life is like in Cuba.
You two constantly make claims that are FALSE! They are just your UNEDUCATED
OPINIONS but you represent them as FACTS and INSIST that your claims be
accepted as the final word on Cuba.
>> He is also fairly typical of Cuban dads and VERY devoted to his children.
>> You want this pissing contest with me, you have a ZERO fund of
>> information on Cuba. ZEEEEE ROWE NADA! ZILCH!
> Jeeze...
>>You have made stupid comments on life in Cuba and people both in Cuba and
>>America.
> No she didn't. I didn't see Bel make any such comments, and I've been
> reading your exchanges through pretty closely, just to see how far you
> plan on going w/ this. You must have an inordinate amount of time on your
> hands.
Yes SHE did and so did YOU! Every time you place false claims about
Cuba or Cubans I will correct you.
>>>> > Have you found any previous statements I've made about the
>>>> > comfortable
>>>> > middle class in Cuba, yet?
>>>> You made them.
> No she didn't.
Yes she did and so have you.
>>> Where?
>> Right in this forum just about a week ago now. I can understand WHY
>> you'd wish to distance yourself from them. They were THAT ignorant.
> Bel never made any such comments. I was the one who commented on a middle
> class in Cuba, and many Cubans living reasonably comfortable lives. I
> never said it's all Cubans, or most Cubans, or that they live in luxury. I
> never said anything about Cubans owning 19" color TVs or driving luxury
> cars. Bel didn't either. This is something you made up out of whole cloth,
> in a state of advanced hysteria, confusing yourself to the point you're
> actually convinced someone put such things forth as fact, when it was you
> who made up all that part. You remind me of the Cowardly Lion in that
> scene from the Wizard of Oz when he bellows out someone has pulled his
> tale. The scarecrow looks around and says, "You did it yourself." That's
> you in a nutshell.
I KNOW that YOU did, she agreed with you and embellished on it. But GET
THIS...................... There is ***NO*** "middle class" in Cuba!You
makes these claims AGAIN of "MANY CUBANS LEADING RELATIVELY COMFORTABLE
LIVES" and you know NOTHING of the island. You have NEVER been there! You
don't know anyone FROM there. You and Bel have NEVER offered ANY sources for
your claims, and you WONDER why I take offense at your claims. Why do you
think over 10% of the cuban population have fled the island? IF they have
those COMFORTABLE LIVES" in Cuba? The sad thing is that you COULD check the
REAL living conditions in Cuba but REFUSE to do so, instead repeating your
bullshit claims about life there. And you say *I* am bizarre?
> You pull your own tail and get so confused, you get hysterical thinking
> someone else pulled it.
Nope I know the two bimbos who have been trying to sell bullshit.
> You have a real problem following posted discussions. This happens w/ you
> all the time. You completely lose track of who has said what and flame
> people for saying things someone else said. You completely lose track of a
> discussion.
No I know what YOU said and what SHE said in first agreeing with you and
then embelishing your claims.
>>>> mother go. CONTRARY to YOUR claims of this HORIBLE HORRIBLE Trauma the
>>>> poor
>>>> little boy SUFFERED.
> Again, that was me who said that, and I stand by my assertion. I cannot
> imagine any 5-year-old left deserted in the middle of an ocean, clinging
> to a life preserver for who knows how many hours, in miserable conditions,
> no food or water, not a soul in sight to comfort him, who would not be
> profoundly traumatized by that scenario. I remember getting lost in a
> crowded park, feeling terrified and sobbing because I was separated from
> my family. As an adult, I have found many children in the same condition
> under the same circumstances. And that compares in now way to the trauma
> of losing your mother and all adult companions in a capsize and being left
> utterly alone, clinging to a life preserver for who knows how long? If
> Elian wasn't horribly traumatized by that, I can't think of a child
> anywhere in the world who would be traumatized by anything.
Agsain you just MAKE UP facts, of the boy "clining to the life
preserver" now, it WAS a raft, then an innertibe and NOW it is a life
preserver. it WAS an inner tube, you were right the second time. BUT the
boy wasn't "clining" to it, he was TIED to it!! And when he was picked up he
was unconscious. DUHHHHH! They took the point to the hospital by helicopter
and it was for a time concerning whether he'd survive. Again you just
wholesale make this shit up!
> If you doubt that's true, I'd say you know nothing of children, or basic
> human nature, even. That would be a deeply traumatic experience for
> anyone. And if Elian says he doesn't remember seeing his mother go, my
> guess is it's because he has supressed the memory...or simply resists
> going there in his mind to relive it. He was right there, the water
> would've awakened him and I have no doubt he would've called and called
> for him mother after she and everyone else disappeared. Any child would. I
> cannot imagine any person, child or adult, being matter-of-fact about such
> a thing.
Jesus so now you are making a DIAGNOSIS of repressed memories. The kid
was UNCONSCIOUS! Near death. There were two adults who survived from that
boat as well.
Much of this is public record. I wouldn't bother offering you sources of
where the REAL truth can ve found is. After all "ANYONME CAN PUT UP A
WEBSITE" and who'd want to listen to the U.,S. Coast Guard anyhow? Now you
are also a MEDICAL DOCTOR........ "the water would have awakened him." You
just MAKE UP one piewce of bullshit after another and you WONDER why people
get angry with you.
>>> Nope. The only thing I wrote was that I doubted Elian slept through the
>>> whole experience as you claimed. I said nothing about the specific
>>> trauma he must have suffered.
>> Now I am really writing you off as a LIAR here. You are contradicting
>> your earlier statements. And I usually won't go much past this point
>> with people like you.
> No, she isn't. It was me who said that, as I've already established.
I love people like you on the net who suffer the delusion that just
because THEY say something that they have "ESTABLISHED" it as a fact. Like
your claim of this HUGE HUGE and VERY COMFORTABLE middle class in Cuba! With
their 97 in TV's with Dolby 900 channel stereo.... And 92,000 channels of
cable TV. You know, I will generally excuse people for being wrong on a
subject which I know pretty well. I will generally remain civil through a
second round where I offer them sources they can indipendently verify what I
have said. I have listed THREE websites that directly counter your MANY
false statements and that of your friend. After you refuse to even look, and
you contine in obstanance to make one false statement after another, I get
short, and I resort to RIDICULE. Quite simply because your claims are
STUPID. You brush off a charter company that flies to Cuba from Miami beacse
you are POSITIVE that you absolutely CANNOT fly from the U.S. to Cuba! You
blow off newspapers, you blow off the Coast Guard beacuse YOU know better.
And you don't know why I call your claims "BULLSHIT."
>>> It's not that hard to pull up the whole thread again and re-read it.
>> Then DO it and see your damn foolish claims.
> Why don't YOU do it and see for yourself. It might not do any good
> though...it may not be any easier for you to follow the discussion and who
> said what going over it again than it was for you the first time around.
I have been to Cuba on American Eagle. So I *KNOW* that you CAN fly from
Miami to Cuba. I have taken those flights several times. I did NOT have to
go through a third country. And BY THE WAY............ THAT is what can be
considered ILLEGAL............. There are LEGAL ways to travel to Cuba. And
I don't care what YOU or BEL (Phoenix) claim you are both full of shit!
>> It wasn't me. Who else is arguing with me here? EnEss dropped out
>> pretty much after the first round or two.
> LOL! That's because I've not gone psycho, like you. As for Bel, it's
> pretty obvious she's yanking your chain, and having some amusement doing
> so. She's looking to see just how far you'll go w/ this, and you're
> playing right into her hand, taking the bait each time. But you're too
> clueless to see this, and are making a complete and utter ass of yourself
> in the process.
And I am looking at how far YOU TWO will go with BULLSHITTING! It
appears you have a way to go.
>>>> > I will ask again (and be ignored) where have I stated anything about
>>>> > a
>>>> > Cuban middle class, TVs, resorts, cars...? These were brought to the
>>>> > conversation by you for your straw man.
>>>> You mentioned the middle class and that Elian was living in
>>>> comfort,
>>>> MORE comfort in fact than had he stayed in Miami. I can understand you
>>>> now
>>>> trying to get out of your claims.
>>> Nope. It wasn't me. Go look.
> She's right. She didn't do that. I was the one who said there is a middle
> class in Cuba, and I stand by my statement. I never said it was a huge
> middle class and that all these people are living in grand style. That was
> your embellishment and then you adopted it as stated fact of someone. I
> never said the people in Miami were living better than Elian's father in
> Cuba, although, by the look of the house in the photos, it looked pretty
> crappy. All I said was that I remember that Elian's father had a
> relatively good job, by Cuban standards, and owned a farm and seemed to be
> making a living wage and enjoying a reasonably decent life. He was not
> among the deeply impoverished of Cuba.
A. Yes YOU did. B. So did she. C. She agreed with you. D. She expaned on
your claim. E. there is NO real "middle class" in Cuba. It's a COMMUNIST
country for pete's sake IDIOT! It is on paper a "classless society." At the
time of Elian being found - he worked in a HOTEL as a groundskeeper as I
recall.
> Where do you come up with such things?
Where do YOU come up with these inventions of yours?
>> Your problem is that *I* am part German, I HAVE alsdo been to Germany.
>> Pretty much over the whole country other than the far north. That's where
>> I get my STUBBORN from. But you are the one making BLANKET statements
>> here, not me. You refer to Russia. A nation where almost 70% of the men
>> are alcoholics. And claim that they all were DELERIOUSLY HAPPY uunder
>> Communism. And now are miserable wretches.............
> Bel never claimed any such thing. You are inventing whole parts of
> discussions here.
Oh jesus yes she did.
>>>> Happier under Communism?
> Newsflash: In fact, some people in Eastern Europe did have better lives
> under the Soviet Bloc and have suffered greatly since its fall, mainly due
> to the selfishness and ruthlessness of the US. This idea that anyone is
> better off under a "democracy" has not seen many 3rd-world or former
> Eastern Bloc countries lately. Democracy for other countries is not at all
> the same thing as Democracy in the US.
I am sure that some of the old Communist cronies HAVE lost out on the
good life. Look at Saddam Hussein's currently deprived economic position.
>> What was the sacrifices of those who left many nations since 1492 to
>> settle other lands? Or even probably before that when nomadic humans
>> populated an entire planet. Life is full of changes and nostalgia. I was
>> born in Chicago I wish I could go back to those days, I moved as a kid to
>> Milwaukee and grew up there. I miss those "Happy Days" too that's
>> nostalgia.
>> But life moves on. We also tend, over time, to glorify memory much more
>> than it deserves.
> Oh my. The layers that peel back when the right buttons are pushed.
WHAT the hell are you TRYING so desperately to make out of that?
>> I don't know - does it make a difference if you cross the street and
>> are killed by a Honda Civic or killed by a speeding Peterbuilt truck?
>> Dead is dead. Tyrrany that kills you is no different from a different
>> color tyrrany that kills you and robs you. You want me to make a
>> distinction between Ted Bundy killing a woman, and John Wayne Gacy
>> killing a woman and eating her afterwards. You know . . I really don't
>> think she's mind being eaten. BECAUSE SHE 'S DEAD!!!!!!!!!!
> LOL! John Gacy didn't kill any women. He liked young boys. And he buried
> his dead meat under his house, he didn't eat any of them. You're thinking
> of Jeffrey Dahmer, probably...and he didn't go after woman either. He had
> a thing for boys too. Not surprisingly, you're confused again.
You love being literal when you think it serves you. Never play with
metaphorical examples.
> I'm bailing out here. I have a great many other (and much better) things
> to do with my time. And if you have any spark of sense left in your
> confused brain, you'll do the same.
Just one more "DRIVE BY BULLSHITTING" eh?
> If your wife is really the terrific woman you say she is and you're so in
> love with her, why don't you get off your friggin' PC and do something
> productive w/ your time? Take your wife out somewhere nice for dinner and
> maybe enjoy a quiet stroll afterwards somewhere pretty, hand in hand,
> under the starlight, breathing in that beautiful spring ocean air, and
> remind yourself what life is meant to be. Stop engaging in toxic flame
> wars. You are making an ass of yourself and are being had for a fool. It's
> pathetic.
Don't worry about my wife. I spend plenty of time with her. BUT - you
know as a "MAIL ORDER SUBSERVIENT GRATEFUL WIFE" she does need just a little
time every day out of her cage. (I am ridiculing YOU and your pal AGAIN.)
She has her own life. The notion that a Cuban woman would be subservient is
laughable.
Phoenix
>
> "Phoenix" <avian...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1cdb7040b...@news-server.carolina.rr.com...
>
>
> People who make that claim of "MAIL ORDER BRIDES" . . . INTEND it to
> be a slur on both the woman and the man. First it implies a "desperate
> subservient" woman who desires to be rescued and will sleep with ANYONE who
> will get them out. And secondly it also implies a desperate failure of a
> man who is a TOTALLY SEXIST PIG looking for a slave. THAT is why people
> make that statement. It is 100% a deliberate slur. A reather desperate way
> to try to gain the upper MORAL hand in a debate and to negate the power of
> firsthand experience in this case.
>
> >> > The allure of saving someone, having a grateful life partner, has made
> >> > many a marriage.
>
> SEE!!!!!!
See what? It's a thrill to show a stranger a new world they grow to
love. What is so awful about that? Nothing. Unless, I somehow struck
a nerve...
>
> > Are they so very, very different from absolutely all other foreign women
> > in desperate straits?
>
>
> Boy you just won't let loose of your DESPERATION PLAY will you? You HAVE
> to make something fit here. Can't deal with the topic so you try to make it
> PERSONAL.
I didn't bring your wife into it, you did. If you really don't want
someone commenting on your personal life, don't share it.
> Actually she was a magistrate in a tax court there. There was no desperation
> to leave. She is NOT a "Fidel hater" she isn't a wild eyed maniac like you
> TRY to portray the Cubans in Miami.
Okay, I'm confused. If all Cubans are so desperate to get away, then
why is your wife different? Your statements contradict each other.
> >> > Alright then! Did it say that Elian slept through everything?
>
> >> No you said he SAW his mother drown and it was horribly traumatic on
> >> him. The report said the boy was unconscious and did not remember seeing
> >> his
> >> mother go. CONTRARY to YOUR claims of this HORIBLE HORRIBLE Trauma the
> >> poor
> >> little boy SUFFERED.
>
> > Nope. The only thing I wrote was that I doubted Elian slept through the
> > whole experience as you claimed. I said nothing about the specific
> > trauma he must have suffered.
>
> Now I am really writing you off as a LIAR here. You are contradicting
> your earlier statements. And I usually won't go much past this point with
> people like you.
Or you know I'm right and would rather claim ignorance than look it up
and see you are wrong.
>
> > It's not that hard to pull up the whole thread again and re-read it.
>
> Then DO it and see your damn foolish claims.
I have, just to check. I never made any of the statements you've
claimed are mine.
Evidently, you didn't check and would rather go with that crystal clear
memory of yours.
> > Nope. Read back and see who really talked about these mythical middle
> > class Cubans. It wasn't me.
>
> It wasn't me. Who else is arguing with me here? EnEss dropped out pretty
> much after the first round or two.
Look it up. Are you incapable or something?
> >>
> >> You mentioned the middle class and that Elian was living in comfort,
> >> MORE comfort in fact than had he stayed in Miami. I can understand you
> >> now
> >> trying to get out of your claims.
>
> > Nope. It wasn't me. Go look.
>
> WHY? You are the one arguing with me.
Go look.
> >> You want to use GERMANY as your example of HAPPY people? Really?
> >> Readup.
>
> > Are you ready to dismiss a whole nation under the blanket of one
> > characteristic? Wow. No really, that's kind of shocking.
>
> Your problem is that *I* am part German, I HAVE alsdo been to Germany.
> Pretty much over the whole country other than the far north. That's where I
> get my STUBBORN from. But you are the one making BLANKET statements here,
> not me. You refer to Russia. A nation where almost 70% of the men are
> alcoholics. And claim that they all were DELERIOUSLY HAPPY uunder Communism.
> And now are miserable wretches.............
Nope. I gave the example of one family who had to make a certain trade
in order to live after communism. BTW, this family is not ethnically
Russian.
I would never claim that they represent all Russians by any means - it
was only an example of what some people have to sacrifice to live in the
US. Nothing more.
> > I really don't know. But I do know they feel ruptured as a family since
> > 1992. Happier in the West? Maybe, but there has been a sacrifice.
>
> What was the sacrifices of those who left many nations since 1492 to
> settle other lands? Or even probably before that when nomadic humans
> populated an entire planet. Life is full of changes and nostalgia. I was
> born in Chicago I wish I could go back to those days, I moved as a kid to
> Milwaukee and grew up there. I miss those "Happy Days" too that's nostalgia.
> But life moves on. We also tend, over time, to glorify memory much more
> than it deserves.
Do you want to explore more of your personal life? Is this open for
discussion now?
You aren't comparing yourself to Russians or Slavs, are you? Is this
because all people are pretty similar, and you can speak based on this
authority?
>
> >> > And we can both pretty much assume that there are many, many Balkans
> >> > who
> >> > pine for the days of Tito.
>
> >> You can ASS/U/ME all you like. You see to grasp at those straws a
> >> great
> >> deal.
>
> > How so? You don't think that after the Serbian war destroyed the region
> > that the years under Tito, who protected them to some extent from the
> > Soviets though he had his own issues, don't seem idyllic and simple and
> > pure?
>
> I don't know - does it make a difference if you cross the street and
> are killed by a Honda Civic or killed by a speeding Peterbuilt truck? Dead
> is dead. Tyrrany that kills you is no different from a different color
> tyrrany that kills you and robs you. You want me to make a distinction
> between Ted Bundy killing a woman, and John Wayne Gacy killing a woman and
> eating her afterwards. You know . . I really don't think she's mind being
> eaten. BECAUSE SHE 'S DEAD!!!!!!!!!!
You might want to fact check this last bit. And then explain how it is
apropos to our discussion.
>
> > Not everyone embraces change and calls it Freedom (especially when they
> > feel less free, somehow.)
>
> There are people in America that LONG fore the wonders of Communism.
> They can have it right now. Get in a raft and paddle the other way! Or hell
> they can FLY there and claim political asylum in Cuba and they can have your
> "GOOD LIFE" in Cuba!
Oh come on. You don't see that there *might* be a trade off? The loss
hasn't been uniformly positive - no change ever is. Many, many people
are a hell of a lot worse off now than when the Soviets were in charge.
> > Oh cut the shit! I have absolutely no control over you or how you write
> > and argue. You have a plethora of ways to respond to me or anyone else.
> > That you responded badly this time is no one's fault but your own.
>
> I responded in the way you deserve. RIDICULE! You have made many damn
> foolish statements, you REFUSE to look at ANY evidence that shows your
> opinions are wrong.
> And you try to maintain that REFUSING to look at those things places you in
> a higher position of credibility. So I deal with you with contempt because
> you EARN IT!
Yaddayaddayadda.
>Elian is better off with his father because
> >> of
> >> the strong bond between a Cuban boy and his father.
>
> > Like fathers and sons don't have bonds anywhere else in the world.
> > Please.
>
> You wallow in stupidity like it was mink oil. Your mind boggling LACK of
> knowledge is overwhelming. No dearie fathers and sons do NOT have bonds "ALL
> OVER DER VELT!
Right, no where else but Cuba. It's the only place fathers and sons
bond.
> Taking a sociological view, we could start with America where fathers and
> sons generally are VERY estranged. (Can you find exceptions? Sure! We are
> talking general trends here.)
> From a sociological view, in the Spanish cultures, especially those of Latin
> America are extremely strong.
Uh huh. They remain strong for one or two generations here, and like
every other culture that enters, they start divorcing and dividing after
the first generation children breed.
Like I said, they aren't that different.
They are not like their American neighbors in
> a society where the father has largely been emasculated with respect to the
> family in general and children in specific. WHY - oh BRANIAC do you think
> the U.S. has to have a program on Responsible Fatherhood?
Cuz we are the land of freedom? And that means freedom from the family
we have created or born in to?
Can't have it both ways. Either the culture promotes obligations and
control, or it promotes "freedom" and lack of controls.
>
> The Cuban father is devoted. The Cuban mother is supportive of the
> father child relationship UNLIKE her North American SISTER who is AT WAR
> with the fathers. The Cuban woman is also devoted to family. ALL of her
> efforts are to make the family healthy and safe. It is a VERY different
> culture. And SMART ASS Americans could do well to listen to them, IF you
> could SHUT UP long enough to listen.
There are no Cuban divorces then...ever? There are no abandoned
children in the Cubano community in Florida? If we look on the Florida
site for public records, we won't find a single Cuban child in foster
care, nor a father in jail rather than raising his kids, or one single
absentee mother?
Is that what you are saying? No Cuban father forsakes his children for
drugs or prostitutes or a second marriage and new children? No mother
puts her son in a situation where he could drown, because she will
always be ultra-protective?
>
> > Never did I paint a rosy picture of Elian's life in Cuba, except that he
> > is probably getting a better and safer education there then he could get
> > in south Miami.
>
> No you went on about his "comfortable middle class life" in
> Cuba......... Equated ot to middle class life here. IN TRUTH -- IF you knew
> jack shit, which YOU do NOT,
Nope, never said a word about the middle class.
> > Right. Exactly my point. He can be pleased that he is a successful
> > artist by anyone's measure.
>
> You are STOOOOOOOOOOOPIDDDD...... How can you be pleased when you have
> NO freedom? How can you be pleased that while your paintings sell for
> thousands of dollars, your child only sees a professor's pay of $30 a month?
> How can you be pleased when your 5 year old daughter has to wear shoes 2
> sizes too small because you CANNOT get her new shoes EVEN IF you had the
> money? How can you be pleased when some asshole complains to the CDR and you
> are "detained" (jailed) for a month of "questioning" because you used the
> wrong color of paint in your picture according to the person who turned you
> in?
But still, according to you, he became a successful artist inside these
conditions.
>
> > He is also a professor at the university teaching art. I hate to
> >> tell you this but lots of artists make a good living in America. Ever
> >> hear
> >> of Thomas Clark?
>
> > No, lots of artists don't make good livings in the US. And the number
> > is rapidly dropping. It's not something we appreciate in this country
> > or venerate anymore. Like with poetry and literature, our society is
> > drifting away from it.
>
> Take a look at all the art and frame shops near you. Art has changed.
> Today you do your work, it is put on litho or a similar system, and instead
> of working a year to make ONE painting to sell for $3,000 you have it as a
> litho and sell copies for $50,000........................ There is an artist
> (brain fart can't recall his name) who does paintings of rustic home scenes
> and lectures who makes several MILLIONS of dollars a year.
Wolf Kahn? Are his paintings hyper-realistic, in vivid colours with
shocking contrasts?
Art is in great
> shape here, it has just moved with technology.
Well, that's a discussion for another time, but now we will just have to
disagree. The art scene in the US is horrible and boring, it isn't even
worth bothering.
>
> > Since your BIL is appreciated and venerated, since he can make his art
> > and show it in parts of the world that do love art, he is a very lucky
> > guy compared to so many talented US artists who could never do the same.
>
> Well another STUPID statement. There are damn FEW artists in the world
> on his level. There is likely to be a day since some of his art escapes the
> control of the nation in Cuba, that he will be remembered as one of the
> "masters" in art. At least that is what some museum curators say about his
> art, INCLUDING here and in the UK.... But what do THEY know, they should
> check with YOU!
Why? I've never seen his art, what could I possibly know about it -
except what you tell me, of course?
>
> > You see, this is the way I operate - if I can respect someone's argument
> > on the Usenet, if they can pull it together and put forth some cogent
> > information that interests me, then I take their recommendations and
> > might visit the sites they point to. Otherwise, I don't bother since
> > I'm likely to come upon something identical to the idiocy and nonsense
> > the source is spewing on a newsgroup.
>
> Yeah under NO circumstance allow yourself to deal with the
> FACTS.................
Maybe, maybe not. There are lots of things said on the web. If a
writer, like yourself, can't convince me that they know what they're
talking about, then I'm not going to visit an equally specious site.
>
> > But a website with your BIL's paintings would be really interesting.
>
> That is really NOT allowed in Cuba.................
But...but...you said that he has been shown outside Cuba, and has an
international reputation. That his pieces are museum quality.
Galleries are online now, even UK or Viennese galleries. It helps them
sell.
bel
>
>
>