Fort Hood Investigators Focus on Motive
JonesieCat
with Kris, that the guy was just nutty, or with Comj, who said the guy was
just a cowardly ay aitch (ahem, paraphrasing here). Maybe both?
jc
---
Fort Hood Investigators Focus on Motive
Nicole Bengiveno/The New York Times
The American flag flew at half-staff at Fort Hood on Friday morning.
By CLIFFORD KRAUSS and JACK HEALY
Published: November 6, 2009
KILLEEN, Tex. - Amid a public outpouring of grief on Friday for those gunned
down at the Fort Hood Army base, new details emerged about the chaotic
moments of the shooting and the Army psychiatrist suspected of opening fire
on dozens of his fellow soldiers.
Emergency personnel removed a wounded person from Fort Hood after a rampage
left 13 dead and 28 wounded.
The gunman, identified as Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, 39, was shot four times by
a Fort Hood civilian police officer responding to the scene. He remained
hospitalized on a ventilator on Friday in stable condition and was expected
to live, Army officials said.
The death toll rose to 13 people, including 12 soldiers, in what is thought
to have been the most lethal shooting on an American military base in
history. Another 27 people were still hospitalized on Friday afternoon, all
in stable condition.
Gen. George W. Casey Jr., the Army chief of staff, and John M. McHugh, the
Army secretary, traveled to Fort Hood as a widespread investigation into the
shooting began, and promised to provide whatever resources the staff at the
base might need. The Army is already sending chaplains and mental-health
counselors.
But General Casey acknowledged that the wounds from the shooting would not
heal quickly.
"This is a tough one," he said in a news conference at the base. "It is
inside. And it's a kick in the gut. There's no doubt about that."
As military and law-enforcement investigators waited to interview Major
Hasan, a contradictory portrait of him emerged. Neighbors described him as a
man who dressed alternately in a military uniform and flowing white robes,
and who gave a copy of the Koran to his next-door neighbor a day before the
shooting.
Reports from the shooting suggested that soldiers may have heard him shout
something like "Allahu Akbar" - Arabic for "God is great!" - just before he
fired two automatic handguns. He was shown on a security video tape from a
local convenience store wearing white robes just hours before the shooting.
And family members said that he had complained about being harassed
expressly because he was a Muslim, and that he had expressed deep concerns
about deploying.
Acquaintances said Major Hasan was upset about his future deployment in a
war zone, and heatedly opposed United States foreign policy in discussions
with fellow soldiers. Earlier this year law-enforcement officers monitoring
Islamic Web sites identified a man of the same name as a blogger who posted
comments on suicide bombings in which he equated such acts to those by
soldiers who use their own bodies to shield fellow soldiers from exploding
shrapnel.
But Major Hasan also reportedly required counseling at different times in
his life, including for a time as a medical student before United States
involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan were issues.
Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison, Republican of Texas, said Army officials were
trying to determine "if there is something more than just one deranged
person involved here." She said in remarks at the base on Friday that while
he was the only one who had fired at the other soldiers, it was still
unclear if he had planned this completely alone.
"That is a question still to be asked," she said. "That is not a question
that has been resolved."
Senator Hutchison said the shooting had prompted Army officials to examine
procedures in tracking people who may have problems.
"Was enough done?" she asked. "Should there have been more triggers? I think
that's what we're trying to learn right now. And I think that it's a
legitimate question and it's a question the Army is asking itself."
"I don't think that anyone would have ever expected a psychiatrist trained
to help others mental health would be the one who would go off himself,
unless there's more to it, and that's what they're looking for," she added.
President Obama asked people to avoid "jumping to conclusions" while the
investigations continued.
Army officials said Friday morning that Major Hasan had not caused any
problems since transferring to the Darnall Army Medical Center at Fort Hood
this year. Col. John Rossi, an Army spokesman, told reporters that
investigators were examining whether Major Hasan had registered the two
handguns used in the shooting.
Major Hasan is the sole suspect, after three others who were immediately
taken in custody were released.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/07/us/07forthood.html?pagewanted=1&hp
Kris Baker
news:rT2Jm.52736$ze1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> This is only the first half of the story at link. I can't decide if I
> agree with Kris, that the guy was just nutty, or with Comj, who said the
> guy was just a cowardly ay aitch (ahem, paraphrasing here). Maybe both?
> jc
> ---
>
You can be influenced by religion, be opportunistic enough to
try to get the military to set you up with a career....but in the
end, you have to be totally nuts to do what he did.
Kris
Kris Baker
news:comadrejoagua-DBD...@nntp.charter.net...
> In article <rT2Jm.52736$ze1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
> "JonesieCat" <jonesi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> This is only the first half of the story at link. I can't decide if I
>> agree
>> with Kris, that the guy was just nutty, or with Comj, who said the guy
>> was
>> just a cowardly ay aitch (ahem, paraphrasing here). Maybe both?
>> jc
>> ---
>
> some sort of diminished capacity defense. If his defense team presents
> a diminished capacity defense, I recommend they call him to the stand as
> an expert witness.
>
> I am more putting him into the mold of a spree killer.
>
> Anyway he is going to get his death wish sooner than later with a
> court martial and the US Military Code of justice.
I think he'll get his death wish when they pull the plug on
his life support.
Kris
bella
"JonesieCat" <jonesi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:rT2Jm.52736$ze1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> agree with Kris, that the guy was just nutty, or with Comj, who said the
> guy was just a cowardly ay aitch (ahem, paraphrasing here). Maybe both?
> jc
> ---
I don't think he was *nutty*. I think he has a similar ideology as a
suicide bomber.
bella
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/07/us/07forthood.html?pagewanted=1&hp
>
>
JonesieCat
"Kris Baker" <paralle...@ggmail.com> wrote in message
news:7ljuj0F...@mid.individual.net...
You mean now? He's on life support? I thought he was stable/fair?
jc
earthage
> In article <AA3Jm.52748$ze1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
>
> He was shot numerous times, and cops don't abide by the Hague
> convention with their hollow point bullets. He allegedly had a 5.7mm FN
> handgun, which is a very nasty cartridge..
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.7_mm
He was shot 4 times. I've read that he's on a ventilator, but I've
also read
that he's stable and expected to survive. Last I read he had been
transferred
to the military hospital in San Antonio.
>
> The police officer who shot Hasan in the torso, got two of these
> bullets, and it may had hit her femoral artery, given she got a
> tourniquet on her leg.
>
> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125750297355533413.html
The officer was shot in both thighs and a wrist.
JonesieCat
"earthage" <eartha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ee1f06c6-9184-46f6...@k17g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
Just because someone is on a ventilator doesn't mean it's a last ditch
thing... But it could be. Somebody toying with us?
jc
Kris Baker
They're going to do all they can to save his life.....just to get
him to talk, in case there's some way this piece of crap is
connected to an organized group. Supposedly, he's
paralyzed; sounds like he took a shot to the head or spinal
area.
Kris
Chocolic
"bella" <tinyda...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hd2gkm$q7k$1...@news.albasani.net...
>
> "JonesieCat" <jonesi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:rT2Jm.52736$ze1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>> This is only the first half of the story at link. I can't decide if I
>> agree with Kris, that the guy was just nutty, or with Comj, who said the
>> guy was just a cowardly ay aitch (ahem, paraphrasing here). Maybe both?
>> jc
>> ---
>
>
>
> I don't think he was *nutty*. I think he has a similar ideology as a
> suicide bomber.
>
>
> bella
>
>
This is probably the only time I'm gonna agree with td.
Chocolic
M
> "bella" <tinydancer...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
[snip]
> >
> > I don't think he was *nutty*. I think he has a similar ideology as a
> > suicide bomber.
>
> > bella
>
> This is probably the only time I'm gonna agree with td.
I disagree.
If he did it out of ideology, then he did such an ineffective job that
one would still question his sanity.
This was a major in the US Army. He wasn't some impoverished bedouin
sneaking past an Israeli checkpoint.
I don't want to diminish the pain and suffering he caused, but he
could have done a whole lot worse with a little bit of thought and
planning.
Mick
David H Singanas
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is one of the more sensible threads about this episode.
Psychiatric counselors and therapists can develop mental illness
from the stress of being an emotional dumping ground week in
week out and month after month of listening to tortured souls.
For one think Nidal Hasan did not have a substantial social
network to buffer the stresses of his job. In fact he was a loner
and apparently without immediate family or friends. The landlord
saw only one visitor to Nidal's apartment and this individual came
only on the day before the shooting spree. He may have been a
fellow Islamist student or cleric.
All religions provide ways to escape mental torment. In this case,
Islam recommends that you commit to jihad (killing of non-believers)
and thus gain entry to paradise and surcease (eternal peace).
Cheers, David H
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
M
Well, I there are some moslems that find justification for that in
their scriptures. I think it's probably simlar to Christians who
believe that the Bible compels them to take signs to soldiers'
funerals that say "It's good your son died, because God hates fags."
Hasan was of Palestinian origin, but he was U.S. born and raised.
Mick
JonesieCat
"Chocolic" <chatt...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7lkeevF...@mid.individual.net...
I think earthage was similarly inclined, or thought about it anyway. I'm not
sure myself.
jc
Kris Baker
If you believe that this is ideological, shouldn't *any*
person who commits an act of terrorism or mass killing
with a religious connection, have the same tag applied
to their crime?
What about Timothy McVeigh? He hung out with the charismatic
Christians at Elohim City, and one of the Elohim faithful was
with him when he purchsed weapons at the gun show.
But we don't tag him with ideological murder. Do we only do
that to people whose religion we don't respect or we fear?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim_City,_Oklahoma
Kris
M
> "JonesieCat" <jonesiecac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:byfJm.52966$ze1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Chocolic" <chatter...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:7lkeevF...@mid.individual.net...
>
> >> "bella" <tinydancer...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >>news:hd2gkm$q7k$1...@news.albasani.net...
>
> >>> "JonesieCat" <jonesiecac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
This will be strongly opinionated.
We have a right-wing mainstream media and the extremes of it, Rush
Limbaugh, Mike Savage, Ann Coulter, etc. are best described as
"fascist."
If McVeigh had espoused an ideology that was not far-right/Christian,
we would hear - all day, every day - about how liberals killed those
people in Oklahoma.
There are plenty of excellent (IMO) reasons to criticise some left-
wing agendas, but the fascists have deliberately chosen to attack
"liberals" rather than "left wing."
Why?
There are a number of clear reasons extremists attack all things
liberal. "Preserving your liberty" is given lip service.
Liberty is, IMO, so far down the right-wing wish list, that it really
has fallen off as anything other than a rhetorical ploy.
"As Mankind becomes more liberal, they will be more apt to allow that
all those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community
are equally entitled to the protections of civil government. I hope
ever to see America among the foremost nations of justice and
liberality."
-George Washington
Limbaugh verbally associates liberals with Stalin. Stalin, like
George Washington, was a revolutionary. Stalin was not a liberal.
Washington was a liberal.
The right wing attacks all things liberal.
Mick
Kris Baker
> In article
> <9a10bd48-034e-4469...@g7g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>,
> M <mc...@pitt.edu> wrote:
>
>> On Nov 7, 12:21 am, "Chocolic" <chatter...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > "bella" <tinydancer...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> > >
>> > > I don't think he was *nutty*. I think he has a similar ideology as a
>> > > suicide bomber.
>> >
>> > > bella
>> >
>> > This is probably the only time I'm gonna agree with td.
>>
>>
>> I disagree.
>>
>> If he did it out of ideology, then he did such an ineffective job that
>> one would still question his sanity.
>>
>> This was a major in the US Army. He wasn't some impoverished bedouin
>> sneaking past an Israeli checkpoint.
>
> no friends, and seemed frustrated and depress. I think the planning
> was to either kill himself alone in his apartment, or go out in glory,
> and take some people with him.
>
> He planned this well enough that he knew he could kill numerous people
> in a confine area.
>
> Using an explanation like Islam is to cover his failures. He could
> also an explanation like Arab nationalism as well.
>
> Even these explanations are pathetic. He is a medical doctor. Where
> ever he was deployed, he treats all.
>
> He wasn't psychotic, he made a cognitive choice. The problem for him
> was that he was captured alive. He was planning to use his last bullet
> on himself.
I think he was hoping someone else would kill him.
Some excellent comments by his fellow mosque-goers here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/07/us/07muslim.html?_r=1&hp
�When a white guy shoots up a post office, they call
that going postal,� said Victor Benjamin II, 30, a former
member of the Army. �But when a Muslim does it,
they call it jihad.
Kris
Poe
> In article
> <9a10bd48-034e-4469...@g7g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>,
> M <mc...@pitt.edu> wrote:
>
>>> "bella" <tinydancer...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> [snip]
>>
>>>> I don't think he was *nutty*. I think he has a similar ideology as a
>>>> suicide bomber.
>>>> bella
>>> This is probably the only time I'm gonna agree with td.
>>
>> I disagree.
>>
>> If he did it out of ideology, then he did such an ineffective job that
>> one would still question his sanity.
>>
>> This was a major in the US Army. He wasn't some impoverished bedouin
>> sneaking past an Israeli checkpoint.
>
> no friends, and seemed frustrated and depress. I think the planning
> was to either kill himself alone in his apartment, or go out in glory,
> and take some people with him.
>
> He planned this well enough that he knew he could kill numerous people
> in a confine area.
>
> Using an explanation like Islam is to cover his failures. He could
> also an explanation like Arab nationalism as well.
>
> Even these explanations are pathetic. He is a medical doctor. Where
> ever he was deployed, he treats all.
>
> He wasn't psychotic, he made a cognitive choice. The problem for him
> was that he was captured alive. He was planning to use his last bullet
> on himself.
Regardless of any life accomplishments, he couldn't even pull off
"suicide by 'cop'" correctly, or just put the damn gun in his mouth and
go for it. Cowardly loser. Also, if had such strong beliefs against war,
why go into the military to begin with.
M
> comadrejo wrote:
> > In article
> > <9a10bd48-034e-4469-8f54-018e15158...@g7g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>,
Interesting question. I don't have a clear time line of this guys
life, most real information I have is from Comadrejoa's link
[BTW, although I disagree with you on the interpretatioin of the
informatioin, Comadrejoa, the link was much appreciated]
No reports from HS. Loner? Girlfriend? Visible Moslem? Devote
Moslem? Good student? Dunno.
He joined the Army in the late 80's (i.e. before the Berlin Wall
fell). He spent 8 eyars as an enlisted man. No info as to
performance, final rank, whether he was visible as a Moslem, etc.
He left the Army and got an honors degree in Biochem from Virginia
Tech. No reports of his life at VT. Good student.
Girlfriends? Loner? Visible Moslem? Devote Moslem? Dunno.
He went to medical school at USUSH and graduated in 2003. As a
civilian veteran? I don't know. Same questions as before,
unanswered.
Some news story mentioned that he re-joined the army after 9/11. (too
lazy to search out link) If that report is accurate he would have been
halfway through med school by them, if my dates are right.
Mick
Charlie
> In article <rT2Jm.52736$ze1.46...@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
>
> "JonesieCat" <jonesiecac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > This is only the first half of the story at link. I can't decide if I agree
> > with Kris, that the guy was just nutty, or with Comj, who said the guy was
> > just a cowardly ay aitch (ahem, paraphrasing here). Maybe both?
> > jc
> > ---
>
> some sort of diminished capacity defense. If his defense team presents
> a diminished capacity defense, I recommend they call him to the stand as
> an expert witness.
>
> I am more putting him into the mold of a spree killer.
>
> Anyway he is going to get his death wish sooner than later with a
> court martial and the US Military Code of justice.
>
He was an islamic homicide bomber no different from those in Iraq and
Afghanistan who have killed our troops. When he yelled out Allah
Akbar that gave him away. Once they dig even more we'll all find out
the real truth of him being a fanatic. Good thing he wasn't a
Christian because we'd never hear the end of it. That he was a muslim
will eventually get swept under the rug. Newsweek and Time have
already said it was because he was nuts. He wasn't. He was as lucid
as you and I.
Kris Baker
news:7llkn2F...@mid.individual.net...
He wasn't anti-war; he was against killing people of his religion
and background. And since he wasn't even a killer, I'm not sure
what his point was. I believe he'd have been suicidal no matter
what religion he was. He couldn't get a wife or a girlfriend. He
didn't attend mosque until two months ago....probably about the
time he got his overseas orders. He was living in a crappy
apartment, driving an economy car....on an officer's pay.
His NONtaxable housing and food allowances (because he
lived off-base) would have been 12-15% of his salary. So he
was basically living for free. Was he banking all the money?
Did he lose a lot in the stock market?
Something else was going on.
He may have felt pressure because of his religion, but not
enough to do what he did. Hell, we're all "outsiders" in
some way, as you've said.
I grew up a Protestant Christian in a community that was
tightly LDS (at that time). A close relative of the Prophet
of the entire church (even having the same last name), lived
around the corner with her backyard touching ours. My
parents got lectures from her all the time. "We are the
true church." "You will not go to the kingdom." "You
are condemning your children to Satan."
When kids in the neighborhood or school class can't invite you
to their birthday party because you're not the same religion, that's
prejudicial. (We invited them.....but some parents wouldn't even
let their children in our home, because we were of the Devil.)
I don't know. Has anyone else here grown up in a major
religion that was considered "wrong"? I have.
So, I have SOME sympathy for someone who is suspect
because of their religion.....and I do believe that he faced
"comments" and distrust. The incident with his car *did*
happen.
We can't pretend people aren't prejudiced. Look at the
comments on Usenet.
BUT...I have NO sympathy for someone who can't solve their
own problem, and who murders other people. Good God,
he wasn't even a decent representative of his own religion
and he's hurt the Muslim community in the US.
More distrust breeds more people like Hasan. He's his
own self-fulfilling prophecy.
Kris
yD
> In article <7llkn2F3dtb6...@mid.individual.net>,
>
>
>
>
>
> Poe <haun...@terrible-thought.com> wrote:
> > comadrejo wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <9a10bd48-034e-4469-8f54-018e15158...@g7g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>,
> military pays for it, besides paying for the bills for residency..- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
The problem with that is that he didn't want to keep his part of the
bargain with respect to his committment to the military, he didn't
want to be deployed to kill other Muslims. I don't understand why he
was transferred from a hospital to a military base -- reminds me of
how priests were moved around when their exploits got too
troublesome. I don't think he was crazy, being a loner doesn't make
you crazy, wanting a wife willing pray five times a day doesn't make
you crazy either. ditto on not wanting to go to a war zone. But he
had an obligation to the army which he didn't want to repay. Because
he is a Muslim who didn't want to kill other Muslims, and he became
exactly the kind of Muslim we are at war with. But that doesn't make
him crazy either.
yD
earthage
He's an extremist in his religious reviews, just like some Christians
who kill abortion doctors. Yes, they have other problems but they
are still extreme in their religious views. People also bring their
own interpretations to a religion.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/07/us/07muslim.html
It was Major Hasan, though, who increasingly felt let down by the
military, and deeply conflicted by his religion, said those who knew
him through the mosque. Duane Reasoner Jr., an 18-year-old substitute
teacher whose parents worked at Fort Hood, said Major Hassan was told
he would be sent to Afghanistan on Nov. 28, and he did not like it.
“He said he should quit the Army,” Mr. Reasoner said. “In the Koran,
you’re not supposed to have alliances with Jews or Christian or
others, and if you are killed in the military fighting against
Muslims, you will go to hell.”
Kris Baker
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/07/us/07muslim.html
�He said he should quit the Army,� Mr. Reasoner said. �In the Koran,
you�re not supposed to have alliances with Jews or Christian or
others, and if you are killed in the military fighting against
Muslims, you will go to hell.�
-----------------------------------------------
As I read that, I wondered why he didn't quit the Army?
He certainly knew the strings to pull. A rational
person would have, even if they held "extreme" religious
views.
I don't think there's one single reason he did this, except
for his own weakness and failures.
Kris
earthage
But I don't think any postal workers have yelled any religious
names or quotes before opening fire. Hasan jumped up on a
table and shouted "Allahu akbar" (Arabic for "God is great!")
before he began shooting.
realpch
> you�re not supposed to have alliances with Jews or Christian or
> others, and if you are killed in the military fighting against
>
> -----------------------------------------------
>
> As I read that, I wondered why he didn't quit the Army?
>
> He certainly knew the strings to pull. A rational
> person would have, even if they held "extreme" religious
> views.
>
> I don't think there's one single reason he did this, except
> for his own weakness and failures.
>
> Kris
It doesn't even make sense. He must have been really depressed, with
attendant scrambled thinking.
Peach
--
Extra! Extra! Read All About It!
Save some dough, save some grief:
http://www.xenu.net
http://www.scientology-lies.com
bella
I don't understand the connection you've made with religion. There are
plenty of ideological associations/beliefs, that result in horrific crimes,
McVeigh being another.
i锟絛e锟給l锟給锟絞y /?a?di'?l?d?i, ??di-/ Show Spelled Pronunciation
[ahy-dee-ol-uh-jee, id-ee-]
锟絥oun, plural -gies. 1. the body of doctrine, myth, belief, etc., that
guides an individual, social movement, institution, class, or large group.
2. such a body of doctrine, myth, etc., with reference to some
political and social plan, as that of fascism, along with the devices for
putting it into operation.
bella
"Charlie" <redred...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:cbb6b776-344d-4c50...@m25g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...snipped:
**** He wasn't. He was as lucid
as you and I.****
-------------------
Well there ya go............................... :-)
sorry, I just couldn't resist.
bella
Kris Baker
news:4AF61EBB...@aol.com...
Yup. I'm wondering about increasing anger, that fomented
in his lonely life. Remember, he even talked to one of his
religious leaders about finding a wife.....something he'd never
been able to do.
There's plenty of single women (civilians and military)
available to officers. The only ones I never knew to have
a relationship, were the closeted gays.
Kris
Kris Baker
But I don't think any postal workers have yelled any religious
names or quotes before opening fire. Hasan jumped up on a
table and shouted "Allahu akbar" (Arabic for "God is great!")
before he began shooting.
-------------------------------
But that's the point. In the postal cases, no one reported
what they shouted.
What did the LeBarons or Lafferty brothers shout before they
murdered their victims in the name of God?
In the Worthington case (where he took over a hospital in the
name of religion), Worthington was shouting all kinds of
religious nonsense.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alta_View_Hospital_hostage_incident
Kris
earthage
He was very lonely and was desperate to find a wife, but had
all these stipulations for what he wanted including someone
who prayed five times a day and wore the traditional hijab. I
don't know why he didn't look overseas for a bride except
someone said his Arabic wasn't very good. But language
doesn't stop other men who want mail-order brides.
Kris Baker
Really. The military guys I knew who couldn't get wives, got
assigned to Southeast Asia or the Philippines. It didn't always
work because those women weren't always as compliant as
predicted.
The guy who can't get a woman, isn't courting. He's looking
for a slave.
I wonder what his family was like? We hear about cousins.
I'll bet he became more extreme as he aged, because really.
Roanoke? I've been there. It's not exactly a hotbed of
jihad....nor is Virginia Tech. I hope 9/11 didn't harden
everyone's hearts on both sides of the issue.
Kris
earthage
> In article
> <9a10bd48-034e-4469...@g7g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>,
> M <mc...@pitt.edu> wrote:
>
> > > "bella" <tinydancer...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > > >
> > > > I don't think he was *nutty*. �I think he has a similar ideology as a
> > > > suicide bomber.
> > >
> > > > bella
> > >
> > > This is probably the only time I'm gonna agree with td.
> >
> >
> > I disagree.
> >
> > If he did it out of ideology, then he did such an ineffective job that
> > one would still question his sanity.
> >
> > This was a major in the US Army. He wasn't some impoverished bedouin
> > sneaking past an Israeli checkpoint.
>
> no friends, and seemed frustrated and depress. I think the planning
> was to either kill himself alone in his apartment, or go out in glory,
> and take some people with him.
>
> He planned this well enough that he knew he could kill numerous people
> in a confine area.
>
> Using an explanation like Islam is to cover his failures. He could
> also an explanation like Arab nationalism as well.
>
> Even these explanations are pathetic. He is a medical doctor. Where
> ever he was deployed, he treats all.
>
> He wasn't psychotic, he made a cognitive choice. The problem for him
> was that he was captured alive. He was planning to use his last bullet
> on himself.
>
Well whether he was planning to kill himself or be killed, he didn't
get a
chance to use a bullet on himself because as he was shooting at
someone
who was running from him, the female officer came from behind him and
shot
him in the back. He was able to turn around and shoot her but she
continued
shooting, and then another officer came and also fired some rounds at
him
knocking him out. Maybe he should have realized it was over and
killed
himself at the moment he turned around to shoot at the officer.
earthage
......a Muslim friend who is also an officer at Fort Hood. Using the
name Richard, the recent convert to Islam described how he frequently
prayed with Hasan at the town mosque after Hasan was deployed to Fort
Hood in July. They last worshipped together at predawn prayers on the
day of the massacre when Hasan "appeared relaxed and not in any way
troubled or nervous".
But Richard had previously argued with Hasan when he said that he felt
the "war on terror" was really a war against Islam, expressed anti-
Jewish sentiments and defended suicide bombings.
"I asked Richard whether he believed that Hasan was motivated by
religious radicalism in his murderous actions," Mr Pasha said.
"Richard, with great sadness, said that he believed this was true. He
also believed that psychological factors from Hasan's job as an army
psychiatrist added to his pathos. The news that he would be deployed
overseas, to a war that he rejected, may have pushed him over the
edge.
"But Richard does not excuse Hasan. As a Muslim, he finds Hasan's
religious perspectives to be fundamentally misguided. And as a
soldier, he finds Hasan's actions cowardly and evil."
Chocolic
"M" <mc...@pitt.edu> wrote in message
news:a9c8ce7e-6e0d-4433...@p32g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...
The right wing attacks all things liberal.
Mick
----------------------
And (of course, I know you meant to say it), the other way around.
Chocolic
bella
> In article
snipped>
>
> As a physician, he is taught and he learns through his residency
> about professional distance, if he doesn't it, this trip wire will alert
> his superiors. His speciality is basically PTSD. If he went into
> civilian life, he probably would work at a VA hospital, having clients
> with PTSD, and leading group sessions of veterans.
Aren't psychiatrists required to have a therapist of their own? I thought
those who counsel others are required to see their own therapist on some
sort of regualar basis to be sure they *are* maintaining the professional
distance properly and not sinking into their own pits.
bella
earthage
> On Nov 6, 11:43 pm, M <m...@pitt.edu> wrote:
> > On Nov 7, 12:21 am, "Chocolic" <chatter...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > "bella" <tinydancer...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> >
> >
> > > > I don't think he was *nutty*. I think he has a similar ideology as a
> > > > suicide bomber.
> >
> > > > bella
> >
> > > This is probably the only time I'm gonna agree with td.
> >
> > I disagree.
> >
> > If he did it out of ideology, then he did such an ineffective job that
> > one would still question his sanity.
> >
> > This was a major in the US Army. He wasn't some impoverished bedouin
> > sneaking past an Israeli checkpoint.
> >
> > could have done a whole lot worse with a little bit of thought and
> > planning.
> >
> > Mick
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> This is one of the more sensible threads about this episode.
> Psychiatric counselors and therapists can develop mental illness
> from the stress of being an emotional dumping ground week in
> week out and month after month of listening to tortured souls.
> For one think Nidal Hasan did not have a substantial social
> network to buffer the stresses of his job. In fact he was a loner
> and apparently without immediate family or friends. The landlord
> saw only one visitor to Nidal's apartment and this individual came
> only on the day before the shooting spree. He may have been a
> fellow Islamist student or cleric.
>
> All religions provide ways to escape mental torment. In this case,
> Islam recommends that you commit to jihad (killing of non-believers)
> and thus gain entry to paradise and surcease (eternal peace).
>
> Cheers, David H
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Opinion piece from the British newspaper The Independent
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/joan-smith/joan-smith-how-can-religion-not-have-played-a-part-1816833.html
Excerpts:
But the possibility that some (certainly not all) Muslim soldiers may
be experiencing a conflict of loyalties is beginning to be recognised
as a potential problem in the British military. The history of Europe
demonstrates that Christians don't have many scruples about killing
other Christians, but Islamism (which is an ideology as well as a
faith) actively seeks to create a common identity and a sense of
grievance among Muslims, even though insurgents regularly kill co-
religionists in terrorist attacks.
Hasan's actions were denounced in no uncertain terms by mainstream
Muslim organisations in the US, and it is clear that most American
Muslims have little sympathy with terrorism, despite the efforts of
Wahhabi clerics in some cities. It's often forgotten that many Muslims
don't go regularly to a mosque, and Hasan stood out precisely because
he attended a mosque in Silver Spring, Maryland, so often. An imam who
was asked to help him find a wife said that the search was
unsuccessful because Hasan's demands were so stringent; he wanted a
woman who prayed five times a day, which isn't that common among
American Muslims. On Thursday morning, only a few hours before he
fired indiscriminately on his fellow-soldiers, Hasan was captured on
CCTV in a convenience store wearing traditional white robes and a
prayer cap, in contrast to the army fatigues he wore at work. It seems
likely that he was not just unable to reconcile these two identities,
but came to see them as in violent opposition to each other.
The authorities have launched an urgent investigation into whether
Hasan had direct links with extremists, but there is another question
that needs to be answered. His faith may have exposed him to verbal
abuse, but did it also protect him from being identified as someone
with troubling emotional problems? On Friday, a former colleague at
Walter Reed said that other medics tried to avoid sending wounded
soldiers to Hasan because of his unusual manner and solitary work
habits; the picture that began to emerge was of an isolated man who
was reluctant to mix with women and expressed overt hostility to the
wars in which his comrades were fighting and dying. That should have
been sufficient reason for further investigation, and it is reasonable
to ask whether secular authorities have the confidence to tell the
difference between religious fervour of a kind they're not familiar
with and genuinely disturbed behaviour.
JonesieCat
Excerpts:
---------------------------
So far in the closet, even *he doesn't know he's in the closet?
jc<----too many stipulations to find a suitable wife huh????? (he was a
run-o-the-mill coward IMHO)
realpch
Uh oh. People were bending over backwards to accomodate him, yes?
Kris Baker
>
> I am surprise that some of his training didn't make him to be a
> little bit cynical of all political and religious rhetoric.
.....and maybe it did? That could have been the "conflict" the
18-year-old "Mr" talked about.
This morning, there was a report that when he gave a PowerPoint
presentation at the Med School, parts were thought to be anti-
American.....and attendees talked about it.
Yes, we've recruited many Muslims into our armed forces - and
we've recruited men with autism, we recruit gays, we recruit
people with criminal records. We recruit desperately.
If we're going to truly fight wars, we should have a draft.
Without exemptions for college, marriage, piloidal cysts....
Good news: Hasan's off the respirator. Maybe he'll start
talking.
Kris
Kris Baker
I'd like to know how "radical" he was in his early life, or if the
enhanced attention givcen to Muslims, caused him to go off on
some weird defensive-offensive mental angle.
From an article posted yesterday, he'd hired two attorneys to
get him "out" (of the war? of the Army?).....and apparently, they
weren't very effective.
Kris
Kris Baker
>
> Opinion piece from the British newspaper The Independent
> http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/joan-smith/joan-smith-how-can-religion-not-have-played-a-part-1816833.html>
>
> to a mosque, and Hasan stood out precisely because
> he attended a mosque in Silver Spring, Maryland, so
> often. An imam who was asked to help him find a
> wife said that the search was unsuccessful because
> Hasan's demands were so stringent; he wanted a
> woman who prayed five times a day, which isn't that
> common among American Muslims.
Yet, he didn't want to go to Afghanistan, to a non-
combat situation, where he **could have** met such
a woman!
> Hasan was captured on CCTV in a convenience
> store wearing traditional white robes and a prayer
> cap, in contrast to the army fatigues he wore at work.
I thought that video had already been denounced as
*not* him (at least on Thursday morning). ??
> .... and it is reasonable to ask whether secular
> authorities have the confidence to tell the difference
> between religious fervour of a kind they're not familiar
> with and genuinely disturbed behaviour.
Of course they can't tell the difference. With the intermix
of religion with politics and religion in the US, it's
absolutely not PC to identify **any** religion as cultivating
disturbed, radical behavior ..... until such time as that
fervor is displayed through violence.
Kris
Kris Baker
>
>
> So far in the closet, even *he doesn't know he's in the closet?
>
> jc<----too many stipulations to find a suitable wife huh????? (he was a
> run-o-the-mill coward IMHO)
I've been wondering about him being gay, and absolutely
unaccepting of such thoughts.
So he couldn't find a pre-fab conservative Muslim woman?
He could have easily dated a woman, built a relationship,
taught her the concepts, and converted her. I'm sure
we've all seen women join a man's religion and become
very obedient to it.
His self-hate, and apparent need to show himself as a
manly man through military service......I think it's very
possible.
Kris
Marianna
> > in his lonely life. Remember, he even talked to one of his
> > religious leaders about finding a wife.....something he'd never
> > been able to do.
>
> > There's plenty of single women (civilians and military)
> > available to officers. The only ones I never knew to have
> > a relationship, were the closeted gays.
>
> > Kris
earthage wrote:
> He was very lonely and was desperate to find a wife, but had
> all these stipulations for what he wanted including someone
> who prayed five times a day and wore the traditional hijab. I
> don't know why he didn't look overseas for a bride except
> someone said his Arabic wasn't very good. But language
> doesn't stop other men who want mail-order brides.-
There are a lot of people who say they want to be married, but they
don't seem to understand that ideally involves being able to connect
with and love another human being. Marriage for some is a means to an
end- children, appearing "normal", etc etc. This guy's stringent
requirements for his potential wife tell me he was more interested in
the latter, for whatever reason- closet gay, misogynist, whatever.
What I don't get is why people who don't like the possibility of being
deployed or sent into combat even join the military to begin with.
It's not like he didn't have other career options.
Marianna
Kris Baker
news:023b432b-82d9-492a...@t2g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
Marianna
--------------------------------
Bingo. We need to know the *history* of his military career.
So far, we know he enlisted out of high school, his record says
he was in ROTC at Virginia Tech (BUT Virginia Tech says they
have no record of him being in ROTC there). Then....we hear
that he went to military medical school six years ago.
What about the missing 6-10 years? Did he get out, then go
back in, to get the free training?
Kris
AZ Nomad
Or wealthy parents.
earthage
According to this early NY Times article, Hasan listed “no religious
preference”
on his personnel records.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/06/us/06forthood.html?_r=1
I read that he and his brothers became more religious after their
parents'
deaths in 1998 (father) and 2001 (mother). Father was only 52 when he
died and mother was only 49.
Kris Baker
According to this early NY Times article, Hasan listed �no religious
preference�
on his personnel records.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/06/us/06forthood.html?_r=1
I read that he and his brothers became more religious after their
parents'
deaths in 1998 (father) and 2001 (mother). Father was only 52 when he
died and mother was only 49.
--------------------------------
Mother died in 2001, and the 9/11 attacks happened that
same year.
But we're trying to make sense of that which does not make sense.
I hope he's awake and in pain, since he's off the ventilator.
Kris
earthage
M wrote:
> On Nov 7, 11:14 am, Poe <haun...@terrible-thought.com> wrote:
> > comadrejo wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <9a10bd48-034e-4469-8f54-018e15158...@g7g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>,
> > why go into the military to begin with.-
>
> Interesting question. I don't have a clear time line of this guys
> life, most real information I have is from Comadrejoa's link
>
> [BTW, although I disagree with you on the interpretatioin of the
> informatioin, Comadrejoa, the link was much appreciated]
>
> No reports from HS. Loner? Girlfriend? Visible Moslem? Devote
> Moslem? Good student? Dunno.
>
>
> He joined the Army in the late 80's (i.e. before the Berlin Wall
> fell). He spent 8 eyars as an enlisted man. No info as to
> performance, final rank, whether he was visible as a Moslem, etc.
>
> He left the Army and got an honors degree in Biochem from Virginia
> Tech. No reports of his life at VT. Good student.
>
> Girlfriends? Loner? Visible Moslem? Devote Moslem? Dunno.
>
> He went to medical school at USUSH and graduated in 2003. As a
> civilian veteran? I don't know. Same questions as before,
> unanswered.
>
> Some news story mentioned that he re-joined the army after 9/11. (too
> lazy to search out link) If that report is accurate he would have been
> halfway through med school by them, if my dates are right.
>
> Mick
Here's a news article from his hometown newspaper.
http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/225422
Excerpts:
Described as a studious and withdrawn youth, Hasan was born in
Arlington to Palestinian immigrants who moved to the Roanoke area in
1985.
Hasan skipped from school to school -- he spent just his senior year
at William Fleming High School before graduating in 1988 -- and didn't
seem to make much of an impression wherever he went.
snip
Although Hasan, 39, was a devout Muslim, it was not known if he was so
when he was younger.
Amer Al-Zubadi, the imam of the Kufa Center of Islamic Knowledge in
Northwest Roanoke, said he did not personally know Hasan and that he
did not remember the family being involved with the Islamic center
during the 1990s.
The Hasan family had deep roots in the valley, Al-Zubadi said.
snip
After graduating from Fleming, Nidal Hasan studied at Barstow
Community College in California through a location at Fort Irwin, a
nearby U.S. Army base.
"Our records indicate he was an enlisted soldier," college spokesman
Maureen Stokes said.
While a dean's list student, Hasan remained an indistinct figure.
snip
Hasan later returned to Roanoke and enrolled at Virginia Western
Community College in 1990. He graduated summa cum laude with an
associate degree in science two years later, according to college
spokeswoman Margaret Boyes.
Boyes said she was not aware of any professors at Virginia Western who
remembered Hasan.
From Virginia Western, Hasan transferred to Tech, where he graduated
in 1995 with honors. Honors students typically have grade-point
averages of 3.5 or above.
snip
While at Tech, Hasan maintained his ties to home, registering to vote
in Roanoke County and obtaining a concealed weapon permit from a
Circuit Court judge in 1996.
With his undergraduate degree in hand, Hasan earned a doctorate in
psychiatry from the Uniformed Services University of the Health
Sciences in Bethesda, Md., in 2003. From 2003 through this summer, he
was an intern, a resident and then a fellow at Walter Reed Army
Medical Center in Washington.
snip
Hasan attended prayers regularly when he lived outside Washington,
often in his Army uniform, Faizul Khan, a former imam at a mosque
Hasan attended in Silver Spring, Md., told the AP.
earthage
Hasan, the sole suspect in the massacre of 13 fellow US soldiers in
Texas, attended the controversial Dar al-Hijrah mosque in Great Falls,
Virginia, in 2001 at the same time as two of the September 11
terrorists, The Sunday Telegraph has learnt. His mother's funeral was
held there in May that year.
The preacher at the time was Anwar al-Awlaki, an American-born Yemeni
scholar who was banned from addressing a meeting in London by video
link in August because he is accused of supporting attacks on British
troops and backing terrorist organisations.
Hasan's eyes "lit up" when he mentioned his deep respect for al-
Awlaki's teachings, according to a fellow Muslim officer at the Fort
Hood base in Texas, the scene of Thursday's horrific shooting spree.
As investigators look at Hasan's motives and mindset, his attendance
at the mosque could be an important piece of the jigsaw. Al-Awlaki
moved to Dar al-Hijrah as imam in January, 2001, from the west coast,
and three months later the September 11 hijackers Nawaf al-Hamzi and
Hani Hanjour began attending his services. A third hijacker attended
his services in California.
Hasan was praying at Dar al-Hijrah at about the same time, and the FBI
will now want to investigate whether he met the two terrorists.
Charles Allen, a former under-secretary for intelligence at the
Department of Homeland Security, has described al-Awlaki, who now
lives in Yemen, as an "al-Qaeda supporter, and former spiritual leader
to three of the September 11 hijackers... who targets US Muslims with
radical online lectures encouraging terrorist attacks from his new
home in Yemen".
Poe
>> preference�
I've been reading about this connection today as well. I don't think,
but I wonder, if followers of al-Awlaki are out forming a bunch of
sleeper cells just waiting... If so, I wonder at what rate the followers
will explode, so to speak.
earthage
He was really wanting a wife.
Relatives said that the death of Hasan's parents, in 1998 and 2001,
turned him more devout. "After he lost his parents he tried to replace
their love by reading a lot of books, including the Koran," his uncle
Rafiq Hamad said.
"He didn't have a girlfriend, he didn't dance, he didn't go to bars."
His failed search for a wife seemed to haunt Hasan. At the Muslim
Community Centre in the Washington suburb of Silver Spring, he signed
up for an Islamic matchmaking service, specifying that he wanted a
bride who wore the hijab and prayed five times a day.
Adnan Haider, a retired professor of statistics, recalled how at their
first meeting last year, a casual introduction after Friday prayers,
Hasan immediately asked the academic if he knew "a nice Muslim girl"
he could marry.
"It was a strange thing to ask someone you have met two seconds
before. It was clear to me he was under pressure, you could just see
it in his face," said Prof Haider, 74, who used to work at Georgetown
University in Washington. "You could see he was lonely and didn't have
friends.
Poe
My theory on the girlfriend issue is that if/when he ever interacted
with a woman she rejected him. His ego made it necessary to say nobody
was ever good enough, so as to explain away the consensus rejection.
earthage
Now some relatives say Hasan said he had a fiancée and didn't want to
leave her.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6907975.ece
Contradictory explanations were offered for Hasan’s widely reported
dismay at his imminent posting to active duty in Iraq or Afghanistan.
Members of his family claimed that after a long and apparently
difficult search to find a wife, he had recently met a Muslim woman he
intended to marry, although Texan sources said they had found no
evidence of a fiancée.
Mohammad Mohammad, a Palestinian cousin living in the West Bank city
of Ramallah, said Hasan had not wanted to leave his future spouse. He
also claimed that Hasan had tried unsuccessfully to leave the army
after enduring taunts about his religion.
“We’re not trying to make excuses for Nidal’s behaviour,” Mohammad
said, “but we imagine that Nidal was under so much pressure that he
couldn’t take it. He was a very quiet man. He must have bottled it all
up.”
Poe
> In article
> <a3635e4a-c51b-410f...@m38g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
> earthage <eartha...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/6521758/Fort-Hood-s
>> hooting-Texas-army-killer-linked-to-September-11-terrorists.html
>
> The article is bullshit. Might as well point fingers at everyone
> living in Great Falls, VA, they shared as much guilt.
You mean everyone in Great Falls who attended the same mosque.
I don't yet know this guy's motive, but I see a pattern from you and a
few others of what looks to me like "jihad apologist", similar to if,
say, Michael tried to denounce every connection a rapist had to a rape -
he gets called a "rapist apologist" for his defensive arguments, arguing
(sometimes correctly) in favor of someone's innocence. Just sayin,
that's how this looks to me.
Kris Baker
I dunno, but it looks like the bureaucracy that is Homeland Security
(just another layer added to top previously-independent agencies)
hasn't done its job.
Unless, of course, Hasan was one of our moles.
Kris
Kris Baker
Why not list the "jihad apologists"? I'm sure I'm at the
very top of your list.
You refused to believe that Hasan's car was damaged by
someone.
How is it an "apologist" to want the FACTS, rather than just
smear someone's beliefs?
Kris
Poe
No I didn't - I said he could have keyed his own car. Subsequent to that
I heard someone admitted doing it. I don't recall if I acknowledged it,
but it is really unfair to say I refused to believe his car was keyed.
>
> How is it an "apologist" to want the FACTS, rather than just
> smear someone's beliefs?
>
> Kris
I'm simply noting what I see as a trend. When Snyder tries to remind
people the facts of a rape case, oftentimes he has a point, but he gets
called an apologist. I'm drawing that parallel, and also, that there
seems to be a trend to defend terrorist attacks against he US as
something other than what they are. I don't know right now what happened
with Hasan, so my point here is more general.
Kris Baker
news:7lp5b4F...@mid.individual.net...
>
> I've been reading about this connection today as well. I don't think, but
> I wonder, if followers of al-Awlaki are out forming a bunch of sleeper
> cells just waiting... If so, I wonder at what rate the followers will
> explode, so to speak.
U.S. Army Chief of Staff Gen. George Casey on CNN's "State
of the Union"
"Frankly I am worried...not worried, but I'm concerned that
this increased speculation could case a backlash against
some of our Muslim soldiers."
Kris
Poe
> In article <7lp70iF...@mid.individual.net>,
> find analyze information, instead of being dogmatic. Shit, why don't
> you call me a "terrorist sympathizer"? that is what ignorant yokels do,
> hell call me a traitor. "Jihad" means struggle, but like any
> religion, the interpretation is warped through the ages.
>
> There is difference between raising doubt in a criminal case and being
> dogmatic, and minimizing and debasing rape, Poe. Mikey throws doubt but
> constantly ignores relevant information about rape cases. I have seen
> enough to know he is disingenuous, much like trying to use a "Saturday
> Night Fever" as a supporting argument, might as well use "Alice in
> Wonderland"... He is not trying to educate as much as trying to get
> followers.
>
> If you don't like what I write, then killfile me, you seemed to have a
> problem with me. Anyway deal with your passive aggressive behavior, it
> is a bit annoying. and it gets worse when you drink. No Offense.
I don't have a problem with you, I am just pointing out what looks like
errors in your logic. All your other personal swipes duly noted. I've
never done that to you.
earthage
I wouldn't want backlashes against any Muslims, soldiers or
civilians. I wouldn't want anything to happen to Hasan's family.
But I still think one has to investigate his Muslim beliefs which
from what others say are radical.
Reminds me of the Oakland fire back in the early 90s which killed
a number of people. When there was talk about firefighters, some
people said, "Oh they are the heroes. Should come under no
criticism." Well how can you make improvements if you don't
look at everything.
Kris Baker
Absolutely. We need to focus on what happened, and hopefully
figure out what went wrong. We see some cracks in the system
that he shouldn't have fallen through.
There's only one good thing in this case: Hasan may well
survive, and explain himself. Or....he'll throw out a bunch
of word salad that blames everyone but himself. So far,
I think he's a "professional victim".
I just hate to see our country start being more suspicious
of anyone who "doesn't look like us".....as if there IS an
"us" to look like.
Kris
realpch
<snip>
> Mother died in 2001, and the 9/11 attacks happened that
> same year.
>
> But we're trying to make sense of that which does not make sense.
>
> I hope he's awake and in pain, since he's off the ventilator.
>
> Kris
Never seems to be amongst the plans of these guys who do this stuff that
they'll be alive after it all goes down. It must be a big surprise to
him. Now he has to take a look at what he did.
Peach
--
Extra! Extra! Read All About It!
Save some dough, save some grief:
http://www.xenu.net
http://www.scientology-lies.com
Kris Baker
news:4AF774D7...@aol.com...
> Kris Baker wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Mother died in 2001, and the 9/11 attacks happened that
>> same year.
>>
>> But we're trying to make sense of that which does not make sense.
>>
>> I hope he's awake and in pain, since he's off the ventilator.
>>
>> Kris
>
> Never seems to be amongst the plans of these guys who do this stuff that
> they'll be alive after it all goes down. It must be a big surprise to
> him. Now he has to take a look at what he did.
>
> Peach
.....and I think this guy was especially cowardly. He had to
have known the outcome of a mass killing, and when confronted,
he didn't even have the courage to let them kill him.
Focus on him, and it'll all fall into place - including any associates.
He'll want to save his own skin and avoid the DP.
Kris
JonesieCat
Look you guys, both of you, don't go down this path. Please? You're both
such good posters. Cripes.
Anyway, I was surprised at how radical the guy was in some of his thinking.
And that he once attended a mosque frequented by 2 or 3 real baddies.
However, at the end of the day, with what I know now, this is a guy who just
went postal. He might just as well have been shouting Praise the Lord and
Pass the Mashed Potatoes when he alluded to his Allah at the beginning of
his rampage. In a perfect world he'd have been killed.
Now, if I hear he indeed plotted with others to do more of same, I'll
reconsider. But when somebody's a suicide bomber or shooter acting on behalf
of Allah, the object, IIUC, is to die - and they generally DO die. But not
this guy. He had a gun in his hand. He didn't have to live. He could have
been a martyr. Didn't tho. He was just whacked and enraged. The couldn't get
a gf thing seems to be a hallmark too.
jc---->ever so lightly tiptoe'ing away wondering what people say about her
own posting-while-drinking (Snyder did amazingly well after those 4 shots of
brandy, btw) (then later on I could hear his snoring from here) :D
Poe
Wait - so it's all about my posting-while-drinking? I guess thought I
had a point :-(
PS - actually we're dry this weekend, because dh is really sick, we're
mostly drinking mint tea using fresh mint from the garden. The variety
includes pineapple-mint, spearmint, and chocolate mint leaves we air-dried!
realpch
I really don't expect that there will be any associates. He looks a lot
to me like every other mass/spree killer, with his own particular bent.
They all have their own particular bents, the reasons the rest of us are
denying them happiness.
earthage
http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091108/FOREIGN/711079872/1041/ART
Major Hassan also complained of harassment in the army because of his
faith. Before being transferred to Fort Hood earlier this year, he
counselled severely wounded soldiers at the Walter Reed Army Medical
Center in Washington, DC. There are only 1,977 soldiers in the active-
duty army who identify themselves as Muslims, out of a total of
553,000 active-duty troops, according to the service.
Val Finnell, a former classmate, said Major Hasan called the Bush
administration’s war on terrorism “a war against Islam”.
“He was very vocal about the war, very upfront about being a Muslim
first and an American second,” Mr Finnell, 41, a doctor in Los
Angeles, told the Bloomberg news agency. “He was always concerned that
Muslims in the military were being persecuted.”
American Muslim groups rushed to condemn the attack but there were
widespread fears of a backlash. Gen George Casey, the army chief of
staff, sent a directive to commanders urging them to keep their
soldiers informed and to avoid judgment.
JonesieCat
Your point? Oh no, I'm not referring to that. That would be on-topic. ;) No,
I'm paranoid about my own occasional (ahem) drinking-while-posting--->can
others tell? (I don't see any differences in your posts myself, whatever you
might be doing at the same time!)
Sorry to hear about your dh. I'm terribly impressed you make your own tea,
and they all sound yummy. I'm putting away a lot of iced tea these days as
we head into summer down here. Do you ice your mint teas in the summer?
jc
Poe
Right now we're drinking hot tea - dh is sick and it feels good going
down. During the warm weather we have infusion jars, which are are 2
gallons or so. We brew batches of teas that way, usually we make "sun
tea", then put the infusion jar (which has a spout) in the fridge for
cold tea.
Charlie
> On Nov 7, 11:39 am, comadrejo <comadrejoa...@mac.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > In article <7llkn2F3dtb6...@mid.individual.net>,> > > > <9a10bd48-034e-4469-8f54-018e15158...@g7g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>,
> > military pays for it, besides paying for the bills for residency..- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> The problem with that is that he didn't want to keep his part of the
> bargain with respect to his committment to the military, he didn't
> want to be deployed to kill other Muslims. I don't understand why he
> was transferred from a hospital to a military base -- reminds me of
> how priests were moved around when their exploits got too
> troublesome. I don't think he was crazy, being a loner doesn't make
> you crazy, wanting a wife willing pray five times a day doesn't make
> you crazy either. ditto on not wanting to go to a war zone. But he
> had an obligation to the army which he didn't want to repay. Because
> he is a Muslim who didn't want to kill other Muslims, and he became
> exactly the kind of Muslim we are at war with. But that doesn't make
> him crazy either.
> yD
When you put your own religion against the interests of the country
something is wrong.
Kyle Schwitters
FORT HOOD?
Just the beginning.
Wait until 30 or 50 innocent true-humans are blown-up on a New York
City street!
As Islam becomes ever more evil, crazed -- and determined to destroy
we infidels, i.e., all non-Muzzies. And even many Muzzies, especially
"wayward" women.
If the FBI and the CIA were competent (recall they failed Americans on
9/11), those federal country clubs could be counted on to detect and
deter the terrorist plans that are doubtless in the works.
But no.
So look out!
----------------
"In Turkey, fertile ground for creationism"
"U.S. critics of evolution help translate their ideas for a society
already torn between Islam and secularism"
By Marc Kaufman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, November 8, 2009
ISTANBUL -- Sema Ergezen teaches biology to Turkish students
interested in teaching science themselves, and she has long struggled
with her students' ignorance of, and sometimes hostility to, the
notion of evolution.
But she was taken aback when several of her Marmara University
students recently accused her of being an atheist, or worse, for
teaching anything but the doctrine that God created the Earth and
everything on it.
"They said I was a liar if I called myself a Muslim because I also
accepted evolution," she said.
What especially disturbed -- and amused -- the veteran professor was
that the arguments for creationism presented by some of the students
came directly from the country where she was educated in the
biological sciences years before -- the United States. Translated and
adapted for a Muslim society, the purported proofs that Darwinism and
evolution were wrong came directly from American proponents of
Christian creationism and its less overtly religious offshoot,
intelligent design.
Ergezen's experience has become increasingly common. While creationism
and intelligent design appear to be in some retreat in the United
States, they have blossomed within Muslim Turkey. With direct and
indirect help from American foes of evolution, similarly-minded Turks
have aggressively made the case that Charles Darwin's theory is
scientifically wrong and is the underlying source of most of the
world's conflicts because it excludes God from human affairs.
"Darwin is the worst Fascist there has ever been, and the worst racist
history has ever witnessed," writes Harun Yahya, the most assertive
and best-known critic of evolution in Turkey, and long a favorite of
more conservative American creationists.
The evolution-creationism battle is playing out against a backdrop of
a much larger conflict between the forces of secularism -- as
represented by the Turkish military and many of the country's more
educated citizens -- and forces, including the popular ruling party,
that want to make religion more important in national affairs. The
Islamic anti-evolution campaign is taking place in Turkey, and not
Egypt or Saudi Arabia, because it is the Muslim nation where evolution
has been taken most seriously. Like the Bible, the Koran says that God
created the Earth and everything on it, and in many Muslim nations
that ends the discussion.
But Turkey, which is officially secular, appears to be joining its
Muslim neighbors on evolution. A recent survey, quoted in a 2008
article in the American journal Science, found that fewer than 25
percent of Turks accepted evolution as an explanation of how modern
life came to be -- by far the lowest percentage of any developed
nation. In a year in which conferences worldwide are celebrating the
200th anniversary of Darwin's birth and his contribution to science,
the battle against Darwinian thinking in Turkey has become something
of a rout, even among aspiring science teachers.
To many Turkish scientists and educators, this is a worrisome
development. The founder of modern Turkey, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, was
an advocate of science, education and, some say, even evolution.
Turkish science has been especially strong in the Muslim world. If
Turks close their minds to evolutionary thinking, advocates say, it
won't be long before religion and politics shut off other scientific
pursuits.
To John Morris, president of the Institute for Creation Research in
Dallas, however, the news could hardly be more encouraging.
"Why I'm so interested in seeing creationism succeed in Turkey is that
evolution is an evil concept that has done such damage to society,"
said Morris, a Christian who has led several searches for Noah's Ark
in eastern Turkey. Members of his group have addressed Turkish
conferences numerous times.
The Discovery Institute of Seattle, which researches and promotes
intelligent design as an alternative to creationism and evolution,
also sent speakers to Turkey after being invited by the Istanbul
municipal government in 2007. President Bruce Chapman said the
institute helped bring Turkish evolution critic Mustafa Akyol to a
2005 Kansas school board hearing on teaching critiques of evolution.
The most visible Turkish proponent of creationism is a former
journalist named Adnan Oktar, who writes and appears daily on his own
two-hour television show under the alias Harun Yahya. He and a
revolving group of about 30 writers and young scientists have produced
more than 200 widely distributed books and videos attacking evolution
as equivalent to atheism, communism and worse.
In 2006, Oktar created an international stir when he sent a book of
high-quality fossil images to biology teachers worldwide. Published on
almost 800 pages of glossy stock, the "Atlas of Creation" sets out to
show that creatures today are essentially the same as those that
lived, and became fossilized, eons ago -- an argument also found in
American creationism. The source of funding for the book, which
emphasizes North American fossil finds, remains murky.
Speaking in his home and television studio overlooking the Bosporus,
Oktar asserted responsibility for "defeating" Darwinism in Turkey and
said that Americans had helped him do it. But as he sees it, the
student has become the teacher. He has created a far-reaching anti-
evolution empire, he said, while American creationists and advocates
of intelligent design still struggle to be heard.
The 53-year-old Oktar, dressed entirely in white, said he is not a
scientist but an author "following the path of Allah." He said that by
aggressively attacking evolution, he has drawn persecution in the form
of lawsuits, legal cases and police torture. He is awaiting a ruling
on an appeal of his conviction last year on charges that his group --
which some in Turkey liken to a cult -- had become a criminal,
moneymaking enterprise.
Being an advocate for evolution in Turkey has its costs, too. Aykut
Kence, who earned his doctorate in evolutionary biology in the United
States and now teaches at an Ankara university, has fought back-and-
forth lawsuits with Oktar for years. He began to take the creationists
seriously when they circulated leaflets with pictures of him and Mao
Zedong, publicly equating Kence's teaching of evolution to communism.
His defense of evolution, he said, has cost him government funding.
After a decade in the trenches, Kence said he believes aggressive
creationism "is part of a larger plan to convert people to a more
conservative Islam."
The Islamic-oriented government, elected in 2002 and reelected in
2007, has telegraphed its views on evolution by adding doses of
creationism to a required public school course on "Religion and
Morals," proponents of evolution say. This year, the editor of one of
the nation's prominent science journals, Science and Technology, was
fired by government officials over her magazine's plans to put Darwin
on its cover.
Some argue, however, that it is too early to write off Turkish science
as being under the thumb of religion. Salman Hameed, a professor of
science and humanities at Hampshire College in Massachusetts and
author of the 2008 Science article titled "Bracing for Islamic
Creationism," said secular forces remain strong in Turkey, which is
seeking membership in the European Union.
"I think it will be five to 10 years before Turks as a whole make up
their mind," he said. "The situation is quite worrisome, and that's
why I wrote the article. But I believe the issue is not settled at
this point."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/07/AR2009110702233.html
M
> "M" <m...@pitt.edu> wrote in message
> The right wing attacks all things liberal.
>
> Mick
>
> ----------------------
> And (of course, I know you meant to say it), the other way around.
Not at all. I'm liberal and there are certainly some aspects of some
of the right wingers that I admire very much. A hell of lot in
Eisenhower, say. McCain's courage and integrity.
Mick
M
> "realpch" <real...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:4AF774D7...@aol.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Kris Baker wrote:
>
> > <snip>
>
> >> Mother died in 2001, and the 9/11 attacks happened that
> >> same year.
>
> >> But we're trying to make sense of that which does not make sense.
>
> >> I hope he's awake and in pain, since he's off the ventilator.
>
> >> Kris
>
> > Never seems to be amongst the plans of these guys who do this stuff that
> > they'll be alive after it all goes down. It must be a big surprise to
> > him. Now he has to take a look at what he did.
>
> > Peach
>
> .....and I think this guy was especially cowardly. He had to
> have known the outcome of a mass killing, and when confronted,
> he didn't even have the courage to let them kill him.
It seems to me like he made a good faith effort at "suicide-by-cop."
Doesnt' always work out.
> Focus on him, and it'll all fall into place - including any associates.
> He'll want to save his own skin and avoid the DP.
I'm guess that he didn't have any associates.
I'm thinking that associates would ahve led him to take a path taht
would do more damage tahn he did and make a clearer ideological
staement.
I also think ideology or not, this was a mentally ill person.
Mick
earthage
bella wrote:
> "comadrejo" <comadr...@mac.com> wrote in message
> news:comadrejoagua-6AC...@news.giganews.com...
> > In article
> snipped>
> >
> > As a physician, he is taught and he learns through his residency
> > about professional distance, if he doesn't it, this trip wire will alert
> > his superiors. His speciality is basically PTSD. If he went into
> > civilian life, he probably would work at a VA hospital, having clients
> > with PTSD, and leading group sessions of veterans.
>
>
>
> Aren't psychiatrists required to have a therapist of their own? I thought
> those who counsel others are required to see their own therapist on some
> sort of regualar basis to be sure they *are* maintaining the professional
> distance properly and not sinking into their own pits.
>
>
> bella
Military has a shortage of psychiatric staff.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/08/us/08stress.html
Major Hasan was one of a thin line of military therapists trying to
hold off a rising tide of need. So far this year, 117 soldiers on
active duty were reported to have committed suicide. The Army has only
408 psychiatrists — military, civilian and contractors — serving about
553,000 active-duty troops around the world. As a result, some
soldiers home from war, suffering from nightmares and panic attacks,
say they have waited almost a year to see a psychiatrist.
Many military professionals, meanwhile, describe crushing schedules
with 10 or more patients a day, most struggling with devastating
trauma or mutilated bodies that are the product of war and the highly
advanced care that kept them alive.
snip
The Army has added to their ranks in recent years, as the number of
soldiers with the diagnosis of post-traumatic stress disorder has
climbed to 34,000. But the shooting has raised a pressing question:
Who counsels the counselors? Dr. Moore and other therapists who have
worked in the military or for Veterans Affairs said that mental health
evaluations of therapists themselves were virtually nonexistent.
snip
The workload itself is enough to give psychiatrists and psychologists
pause. In Iraq, with sectarian violence at its peak in 2007, officials
say there were 200 such specialists serving more than 130,000 troops,
driving between bases on bomb-rigged roads.
The experience of Lt. Col. Reagon P. Carr was common. In six months
with the Second Brigade of the 10th Mountain Division in 2007, he said
he saw more than 700 soldiers. In one typical week, he visited three
locations, meeting with 36 soldiers who came in for immediate help: 3
were contemplating suicide, a dozen were unable to sleep, 5 said they
were apprehensive about returning to a dysfunctional marriage and 16
said they were disgruntled with their leadership.
Kris Baker
> In article
> <e1525734-81bc-4352...@d21g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
> should thoroughly investigate Dr. Hasan, and see how much did his
> religion and his connection to mosques played a part in his motives. I
> don't see much right now, and some of his actions with some of his
> fellow muslims in Killeen, Texas, doesn't show a terrorist mastermind,
> but a lonely and frustrated person.
>
> They should also looked how long Dr. Hasan has shown quixotic and
> depressed behavior.
>
> My guess is that Dr. Hasan has nothing to lose during his court
> martial, so he will probably have some sort of "martyr" defense, because
> he is going to be executed, even if they dug up Clarence Darrow and put
> him in charge of the defense.
>
> For some strange and unlikely reason that Dr. Hasan is acquitted, they
> will withheld the death of the 62 year old civilian and charge him in
> Federal Court...
I think it's all going to Federal Court. But I don't see execution, if
he's not of sound body. Not that I don't think he deserves it, but
keeping him alive might be good torture.
Investigate the hell out of Hasan, and then start over. Rather than
executing him like we did to Bundy (who was in the middle of
confessing to crimes that needed solving when they killed him),
use him as a source of current info and then watch who scatters.
Especially if it's true that he was trying to contact al Qaeda.
But....there's also the mole issue. I can't believe the Army was
as inept as it's looking like.
When an F-16 goes down around here, military officers' heads
roll like bowling pins in a strike-a-thon. A couple of generals
should lose their careers over this, if the complaints against
Hasan were actually ignored.
But Gen Casey has thousands of Muslims serving honorably,
and we don't need a witch hunt. If we start that, then we'd
better start investigating the McVeigh-soundalikes, too.
Kris
Kris Baker
>
>
> Unless there is plenty of information to come out that Dr. Hasan's was
> looking for "martyrdom" or was heavily influenced by a muslim cleric, I
> see still signs of depression, loneliness and alienation as the main
> factor of his spree killing, and fits in more with psychological profile
> of other spree killers, than a suicide bomber.
I think that's going to be the result of investigating him inside
and out....except, of course, a fine-tooth comb through all of
his contacts since 9/11, including all computers and his phones.
Kris
Kris Baker
>
> I don't see this going to Federal Court. Dr. Hasan is an active duty
> military officer, he killed other active duty troops on a US military
> base. The Uniform Code of Military Justice has priority, imho. If he
> did this off base or off duty like Lisa Nowak, then I can see another
> jurisdiction have priority.
>
> Anyway a Court Martial is even more slanted in the favor of the
> prosecution than a Federal Court, it is a faster trial, the press can be
> controlled better, and there is no need for jury selection, and
> laborious evidentiary procedures before a trial. The defense can whine
> about due process etc. but all the questions of jurisdiction points
> toward a court martial. Instead of a 90%-95% conviction rate in
> Federal Court, I think US Military Court Martials have a 96% plus
> conviction rate.
I don't think they'll want to control the press. Obviously, the
military has first dibs, but that doesn't exclude the Feds.
Who should try Nidal Malik Hasan -- military or federal courts?
November 9, 2009 | 10:06 am
An Army hospital spokesman said today that Nidal Malik Hasan is now
conscious and able to talk.
The 39-year-old Army major and combat psychiatrist is accused of unleashing
a bloody massacre Thursday when he opened fire at a processing center at Ft.
Hood Army military base, killing 13 and wounding 29.
The question now: Who will prosecute him?
Tom Kenniff, a former Army JAG officer and Iraq war veteran who served in
Tikrit, said Friday he thought the judge advocate general's office on Ft.
Hood will have exclusive jurisdiction over this case. "It's possible he
could also be charged by the Feds with committing an act of terrorism, but
my guess is the Army will get first crack at him," he said in an online chat
for the Washington Post.
But Sunday, Connecticut Independent Joe Lieberman said the Homeland Security
Committee he chairs will investigate whether federal officials missed any
red flags that Hasan had become a terrorist threat.
�We don�t know enough to say now, but there are very, very strong warning
signs (Hasan) had become an Islamist extremist and, therefore, that this was
a terrorist act,� Lieberman said on Fox News Sunday.
A finding of terrorism could trigger a decision by the Obama administration
to take the case to federal court, and an admission that Hasan's alleged
action was the first act of terrorism on American soil since Sept. 11.
President Obama flies to Texas on Tuesday to participate in a memorial for
the 13 victims.
Murder in either case is punishable by the death penalty, but the appeals
process in the military justice system apparently tends to discourage
executions. According to the Houston Chronicle, of the 47 service members
charged with murder in recent decades, 15 have received a death sentence,
and none has been executed since 1961.
"We're in for a long haul," Scott Silliman, retired career JAG Air Force
officer who now directs the Center on Ethics and National Security at Duke
University Law School, told the paper. The Army "will not try to move the
case too quickly because that might build in a problem down the road."
Meanwhile Hasan's family is asking that he be allowed to consult with a
lawyer before speaking to investigators. In a statement Saturday, Eyad
Hasan, the suspect's brother, said his family has �faith in our legal system
and that my brother will be treated fairly.�
-- Johanna Neuman
earthage
http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel09/forthood110909.htm
Major Hasan came to the attention of the FBI in December 2008 as part
of an unrelated investigation being conducted by one of our Joint
Terrorism Task Forces (JTTFs). JTTFs are FBI-led, multi-agency teams
made up of FBI agents, other federal investigators—including those
from the Department of Defense—and state and local law enforcement
officers.
Investigators on the JTTF reviewed certain communications between
Major Hasan and the subject of that investigation and assessed that
the content of those communications was consistent with research being
conducted by Major Hasan in his position as a psychiatrist at the
Walter Reed Medical Center. Because the content of the communications
was explainable by his research and nothing else derogatory was found,
the JTTF concluded that Major Hasan was not involved in terrorist
activities or terrorist planning. Other communications of which the
FBI was aware were similar to the ones reviewed by the JTTF.
realpch
<snip>
> I don't see this going to Federal Court. Dr. Hasan is an active duty
> military officer, he killed other active duty troops on a US military
> base. The Uniform Code of Military Justice has priority, imho. If he
> did this off base or off duty like Lisa Nowak, then I can see another
> jurisdiction have priority.
>
> Anyway a Court Martial is even more slanted in the favor of the
> prosecution than a Federal Court, it is a faster trial, the press can be
> controlled better, and there is no need for jury selection, and
> laborious evidentiary procedures before a trial. The defense can whine
> about due process etc. but all the questions of jurisdiction points
> toward a court martial. Instead of a 90%-95% conviction rate in
> Federal Court, I think US Military Court Martials have a 96% plus
> conviction rate.
What do they do with insanity defences? Do they entertain them? Is it
just like regular court?
earthage
> In article <7lrs3oF...@mid.individual.net>,
> military officer, he killed other active duty troops on a US military
> base. The Uniform Code of Military Justice has priority, imho. If he
> did this off base or off duty like Lisa Nowak, then I can see another
> jurisdiction have priority.
>
> Anyway a Court Martial is even more slanted in the favor of the
> prosecution than a Federal Court, it is a faster trial, the press can be
> controlled better, and there is no need for jury selection, and
> laborious evidentiary procedures before a trial. The defense can whine
> about due process etc. but all the questions of jurisdiction points
> toward a court martial. Instead of a 90%-95% conviction rate in
> Federal Court, I think US Military Court Martials have a 96% plus
> conviction rate.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125781747162840173.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLTopStories
Attorney John P. Galligan told various media outlets that he had been
retained by Mr. Hasan's family to serve as counsel. Mr. Galligan
didn't immediately return calls seeking comment.
If it is determined Maj. Hasan acted as part of a broader terrorist
plot, he could fall under the jurisdiction of federal courts under
U.S. antiterrorism laws. However, if he acted alone, he likely would
be tried under a military court-martial, several legal experts said.
The incident happened at an Army post, and the alleged shooter, as
well as most of the victims, were soldiers.
If he ends up in a court-martial, Maj. Hasan is entitled to a free
military defense attorney, and could assert an insanity defense.
If his case becomes a death-penalty case, a 12-person jury of military
personnel would have to vote unanimously to put him to death. The
president must ultimately sign off on a court-martial death sentence.
Poe
> In article
> <e1525734-81bc-4352...@d21g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
> earthage <eartha...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> should thoroughly investigate Dr. Hasan, and see how much did his
> religion and his connection to mosques played a part in his motives. I
> don't see much right now, and some of his actions with some of his
> fellow muslims in Killeen, Texas, doesn't show a terrorist mastermind,
> but a lonely and frustrated person.
Specifically what signs of loneliness and frustration are you talking
about? I am seeing item after item to suggest he was indeed an extreme
Islam-inspired killer.
According to the UK Telegraph, he "told colleagues at America's top
military hospital that non-Muslims were infidels condemned to hell who
should be set on fire".
Further in the article it says: "Fellow doctors have recounted how they
were repeatedly harangued by Hasan about religion and that he openly
claimed to be a 'Muslim first and American second'."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/6526030/Fort-Hood-gunman-had-told-US-military-colleagues-that-infidels-should-have-their-throats-cut.html
I understand the desire to be fair, but as the facts come out this guy
screams Islamist terrorist - even if he acted alone, that seems to be
his inspiration.
But - you think he was depressed, or lonely, or some such. Why? What
were the signs? Was he loosing weight, missing work, drinking too much?
Sure, he wanted a mate - who doesn't? I am not a psychologist so I don't
really know the signs, but I think there'd be things that would start
surfacing, but all that seems to keep coming up are things related to
his religious beliefs.
I ask in all honesty - if a member of the KKK went and shot up a bunch
of people who just happened to be black because, say, they were in a
certain area or whatever. If someone like that's defense started trying
to claim it wasn't really racism, that's a coicidence, he was just
really bummed out because of <whatever> and decided to go kill some
people to let off steam - would you buy it? That's why I said what I did
last night - this particular type of violence against Americans seems to
be excused lately for PC reasons and it is dangerous to ignore IMO. I'd
feel the same no matter what the base excuse or cause was.
realpch
<snip>
I dunno, he just struck me as nuts after reading a number of accounts,
though I'm inclined to think that people who do these sorts of things
are nuts. But it's all a matter of labels. I don't think anybody's
excusing him. Let us call him a nut with a religious agenda. There sure
are a lot of those around.
Poe
Which begs he question, at what point is someone a religious fanatic,
and at what point a nut? Lots of horrible things in history have been
done in the name of religion, but in some cases indeed the leader seems,
in hindsight, more or less crazy. I was thinking of Jim Jones, but
wanted better examples to respond to you with, and I came across this,
which seems interesting: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0307/3316.html
I never heard of it before but it might be interesting, unless it's just
for the purpose of furthering or hurting someone politically.
Anyway, we all know much harm has been done in the name of "God", and
oftentimes by someone with loose wiring.
realpch
<snip>
> Which begs he question, at what point is someone a religious fanatic,
> and at what point a nut? Lots of horrible things in history have been
> done in the name of religion, but in some cases indeed the leader seems,
> in hindsight, more or less crazy. I was thinking of Jim Jones, but
> wanted better examples to respond to you with, and I came across this,
> which seems interesting: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0307/3316.html
>
> I never heard of it before but it might be interesting, unless it's just
> for the purpose of furthering or hurting someone politically.
>
> Anyway, we all know much harm has been done in the name of "God", and
> oftentimes by someone with loose wiring.
Hmmmmmm, maybe there's not much difference!
: D
I'm not really a fan of religious fanaticism. Religion, in my view,
ought to be beneficial and harmless.