A Little More on the Yates Family
Maggie
A life unraveled
Mom depicted as private, caring, but burdened by hidden problems
By ALAN BERNSTEIN
Yates has spent her adult life catering to the deepest needs and visions of
others, strangers and loved ones alike. There was little time for herself, it
seems, and she is described as a private person, never prone to dwelling on
matters of self anyway.
Yates was a registered nurse from 1986 to 1994 at the University of Texas M.D.
Anderson Cancer Center, according to hospital records. Of her parents' five
children, she, the youngest, was the one who spent the most time with her dying
father as he battled Alzheimer's disease, according to a Houston neighbor.
She was the stay-at-home mother and home-school teacher to another generation
of five children, in line with her husband's vision of a thrifty family tribe
that could jettison its belongings and travel around the country, according to
acquaintances.
Her husband, NASA computer engineer Russell E. Yates, has explained that he was
the one in the family with deep religious feelings, and friends said she
deferred to him in public on a variety of subjects.
"He didn't want her working at all," former neighbor Sylvia Cole, a psychiatric
nurse, said as she described the couple as loving and responsible. "He wanted
her staying at home."
Now Houston native Andrea Yates sits alone for a change -- alone as one can be
in a Harris County jail cell. She is a capital-murder defendant in the
Wednesday drowning deaths of her five children, and a victim, according to her
husband, of a postpartum depression spiral.
Yates, who turns 37 on July 2, is the daughter of a man who flew U.S. Air Force
bombing missions over Germany in World War II and a woman who was born in
Germany, according to relatives.
Her father, retired Humble High School auto shop teacher Andrew E. Kennedy,
died at age 83 on March 12 -- an event that intensified Andrea Yates'
depression, according to her husband. Her mother, the former Jutta Karin
Koehler, 72, survives.
Yates' close ties to her father once showed themselves in dark ways. When she
tried to kill herself in June 1999, following the birth of her fourth child,
the attempt took place in her parents' southeast Houston house -- and she tried
to end her life with an overdose of her father's Alzheimer's medication,
according to a neighbor who spoke on the condition of not being identified.
Yates' suicide attempt apparently came at a disruptive time for her family.
Yates and her husband had sold their Friendswood house eight months earlier, in
late 1998, according to county records.
The couple explained that they needed to move to a bigger house, Cole said.
Another neighbor who asked to remain anonymous said the Yates couple sold most
of the standard household possessions they would need to inhabit their next
house, and that Russell Yates explained the family was planning to make an
extended trip around the United States.
But such a trip may have never taken place. NASA officials confided that there
was no evidence of Russell Yates' taking an extended leave from his
$80,000-a-year job. When Andrea Yates tried to kill herself, the couple and
their children apparently were living with her parents, across the street from
Glennbrook Park Golf Course.
During the time the couple owned no home of their own, Russell Yates took a
five-day work trip to Florida in the family's recreational vehicle, passing up
an expense-paid airplane trip and hotel stay, according to federal records. It
could not be determined if he took his wife and children with him to fulfill
part of their travel dreams.
The couple never reached their goal of moving into a larger home with their
growing family, according to county records. A month after the suicide attempt,
Russell and Andrea Yates bought a Clear Lake house in July 1999 that was
smaller than the one they had vacated, property records show.
The children died inside this house, at 942 Beachcomber.
Yates and her children joined a home school support group that meets at nearby
Sagemont Church, a friend said, but the couple and the children are not listed
on the church's membership or Sunday school rolls. Relatives said last week
that the Yateses were not affiliated with any church.
Andrea Yates' parents were members of St. Christopher's Catholic Church. There
are conflicting reports about where Yates went to school as a youngster. A
niece said she was a top-ranked student at Mount Carmel High School, a Catholic
private school, but another relative indicated that she attended Milby High
School in the Houston Independent School District. Mount Carmel said it had no
record of Yates as a student, and HISD was searching its records to see if she
had been a public school student.
It could not be determined last week where Yates got her training as a nurse.
A former neighbor said Yates lived near the Texas Medical Center while working
at the nationally respected cancer hospital.
She married Russell Yates in April 1993, a month after he bought the
four-bedroom Friendswood house, according to public records. Both were 28. They
had known each other for four years, according to her husband.
They were married by the Rev. Ronald L. Collins. A nondenominational minister
named Ron Collins has advertised himself in Houston as a wedding specialist --
and as a gun dealer and message therapist. He could not be reached for comment.
Ten months after the wedding, the Yates' first child, Noah, was born. Yates
left the nursing profession about the same time, and two years later her state
nursing license became inactive.
Cole, trained to treat people with mental diseases, said Yates was a model of
mental stability and patience as she reared her children.
"I never did detect any kind of depression," Cole said, supporting Russell
Yates' statements that his wife became a different person following the birth
of their fourth child two years ago.
Yates sometimes missed nursing, Cole said, but she accepted her role as a
full-time mother, and her husband pitched in with child care after his work
hours. Andrea Yates made a point of getting her children to appointments on
time and making sure they avoided sugary foods, the former neighbor said.
"I don't think they ever left the kids with babysitters," Cole said. "They were
always with the kids."
Russell Yates said last week that the couple mutually set out to have several
children and that her depression following the birth of their daughter six
months ago led to their agreement that they would have no more.
Cole said Russell Yates had talked about having six children.
"He wanted that many kids," she said. "I don't remember that she wanted that
many. I know my husband and I made a comment that after you have the first two,
you are going to change your mind. I don't know if it was (their) joint
decision or not."
Former neighbors said Andrea Yates, a gangly 5 feet 6 inches, was low-key, down
to earth and never extravagant. Cole said Russell Yates, known as "Rusty" in
the Heritage Park Estates subdivision of Friendswood, was conservative and
athletic.
"They just looked like your all-American family," she said.
Chronicle reporter Miriam Garcia contributed to this article.
Maggie
"The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense."
- Tom Clancy
Dryad
herself. This does not, of course, excuse what she did. I feel both pity
and horror at her actions, and can't believe she was in anything
approaching a rational mind when she killed those children.
Although chasing down her 7 year old is pretty goldarned sane.
Makes ya wonder.
Dryad, who will be very, very, very surprised if she doesn't get the death
penalty, Or maybe that was the unconscious plan? She didn't kill herself,
so Texas will do it for her?
Desi
Maggie wrote in message
<20010623174148...@ng-fc1.aol.com>...
Interesting to note that she attempted suicide
at her parent's home, with her dad's meds, just before
Father's Day. Her brother, Andrew Kennedy told the Dallas
News : " their father's death may have pushed
her over the edge....My father didn't talk in the last
months of his life. I think there were some extended issues
that didn't get resolved, and that was really hard on her."
desi
Kris Baker
Maggie wrote
>From the Houston Chronicle:
(I've snipped out the parts about the murder - and left
in only the parts about the family life.) I'm sorry, but
this family (especially the husband) sounds a bit strange.
>She was the stay-at-home mother and home-school teacher
>to another generation of five children, in line with her
>husband's vision of a thrifty family tribe that could jettison
>its belongings and travel around the country, according to
>acquaintances.
>
>Her husband, NASA computer engineer Russell E. Yates,
>has explained that he was the one in the family with deep
>religious feelings, and friends said she deferred to him
>in public on a variety of subjects.
>
>"He didn't want her working at all," former neighbor Sylvia
>Cole, a psychiatric nurse, said as she described the couple
>as loving and responsible. "He wanted her staying at home."
As if raising and educating five children at home isn't
working?
>Yates' suicide attempt apparently came at a disruptive time
>for her family.
>Yates and her husband had sold their Friendswood house
>eight months earlier, in late 1998, according to county records.
>The couple explained that they needed to move to a bigger
>house, Cole said.
>
>Another neighbor who asked to remain anonymous said
>the Yates couple sold most of the standard household
>possessions they would need to inhabit their next house,
>and that Russell Yates explained the family was planning
>to make an extended trip around the United States.
Either that, or facing bankruptcy?
>But such a trip may have never taken place. NASA officials
>confided that there was no evidence of Russell Yates'
>taking an extended leave from his $80,000-a-year job.
>When Andrea Yates tried to kill herself, the couple and
>their children apparently were living with her parents,
>across the street from Glennbrook Park Golf Course.
>
>During the time the couple owned no home of their own,
>Russell Yates took a five-day work trip to Florida in the
>family's recreational vehicle, passing up an expense-
>paid airplane trip and hotel stay, according to federal
>records. It could not be determined if he took his wife
>and children with him to fulfill part of their travel dreams.
Government TDY, drive your car, get paid for the
mileage and also get paid a standard "subsistence"
amount. Usually done by people needing money
badly.
>They were married by the Rev. Ronald L. Collins. A
>nondenominational minister named Ron Collins has
>advertised himself in Houston as a wedding specialist --
>and as a gun dealer and message therapist. He could
>not be reached for comment.
A gun-totin', massage therapist/marriage specialist?
That's an auspicious start!
Here's an odd "what if" question:
What if the husband was the one making sure that
his wife was on lots of psychotropic drugs - figuring
that she'd perhaps kill herself?
Kris
Kris
Patty
: >During the time the couple owned no home of their own,
: >Russell Yates took a five-day work trip to Florida in the
: >family's recreational vehicle, passing up an expense-
: >paid airplane trip and hotel stay, according to federal
: >records. It could not be determined if he took his wife
: >and children with him to fulfill part of their travel dreams.
Kris wrote;:
: Government TDY, drive your car, get paid for the
: mileage and also get paid a standard "subsistence"
: amount. Usually done by people needing money
: badly.
My understanding from federal workers is that they
would get compensation for mileage, but only up
to the price of airfare if flying was cheaper. I was
told that many do make money off the "subsistence"
amount by staying at inferior motels or with relatives
or as in this case staying in a recreational vehicle
and probably providing their own meals rather than
eating at restaurants.
: >They were married by the Rev. Ronald L. Collins. A
: >nondenominational minister named Ron Collins has
: >advertised himself in Houston as a wedding specialist --
: >and as a gun dealer and message therapist. He could
: >not be reached for comment.
:
Kris wrote::
: A gun-totin', massage therapist/marriage specialist?
: That's an auspicious start!
Does sound strange and does sound like a different type
of marriage. If she was a practical nonextravaggent person,
seems like living with him with his big dreams might be
difficult.
: Here's an odd "what if" question:
:
: What if the husband was the one making sure that
: his wife was on lots of psychotropic drugs - figuring
: that she'd perhaps kill herself?
:
: Kris
:
Seems like he would have been sadder about his
children's deaths and not at all supportive of her
under such a scenario.
Patty
Maggie
>: >nondenominational minister named Ron Collins has
>: >advertised himself in Houston as a wedding specialist --
>: >and as a gun dealer and message therapist. He could
>: >not be reached for comment.
>:
>Kris wrote::
>: A gun-totin', massage therapist/marriage specialist?
>: That's an auspicious start!
>
>Does sound strange and does sound like a different type
>of marriage. If she was a practical nonextravaggent person,
>seems like living with him with his big dreams might be
>difficult.
***Don't you figure he just got the minister (or whatever he is) out of the
phone book? I doubt this minister's other activities were of any interest to
either of the Yates.
>
>: Here's an odd "what if" question:
>:
>: What if the husband was the one making sure that
>: his wife was on lots of psychotropic drugs - figuring
>: that she'd perhaps kill herself?
>:
>: Kris
***Uh, Kris, I'll remind you that no sane man with five very young children
dreams of his wife's death--even if he hates her.
Maggie
"Researchers have long known that there is one extremely common genetic factor
that confers at least a ten-fold increase in the propensity to exhibit
criminally violent behavior. It is called the Y chromosome."--Francis S.
Collins
Desi
Maggie wrote in message
<20010624005321...@ng-fc1.aol.com>...
I guess you haven't read * Death By Sunset*, yet?
desi
Maggie
>>>: his wife was on lots of psychotropic drugs - figuring
>>>: that she'd perhaps kill herself?
>>>:
>>>: Kris
>>
>>***Uh, Kris, I'll remind you that no sane man with five
>very young children
>>dreams of his wife's death--even if he hates her.
desi said:
>I guess you haven't read * Death By Sunset*, yet?
***Nope. But I read Ann Rule's Dead by Sunset and even watched the TV movie
with Ken Olin. Since you've forgotten the title, you may also have forgotten
that the Cunninghams had only three children who were not babies when Brad
killed his wife. Not to mention that I don't believe I'd classify Brad
Cunningham as sane.
Maggie
Desi
Maggie wrote in message
<20010624013357...@ng-fc1.aol.com>...
>>>>: What if the husband was the one making sure that
>>>>: his wife was on lots of psychotropic drugs -
figuring
>>>>: that she'd perhaps kill herself?
>>>>:
>>>>: Kris
>>>
>maggie said:
>>>***Uh, Kris, I'll remind you that no sane man with five
>>very young children
>>>dreams of his wife's death--even if he hates her.
>
>desi said:
>>I guess you haven't read * Death By Sunset*, yet?
>
>***Nope. But I read Ann Rule's Dead by Sunset and even
watched the TV movie
>with Ken Olin. Since you've forgotten the title, you may
also have forgotten
>that the Cunninghams had only three children who were not
babies when Brad
>killed his wife. Not to mention that I don't believe I'd
classify Brad
>Cunningham as sane.
>
>Maggie
Cheryl's children were very young, when Brad killed her. I
believe six , seven and the one he took with him to
slaughter his wife, was four or five years old.
And he had other children by other wives,
Are you so sure Mr Yates is perfectly sane?? Perfectly
coping? Perfectly stable? Still, I say,the man, was in
heavy denial!!! After all, he left five babies to be
drowned by her. After her attempt at self-murder, her
father's death, her rounds of anti- psychotic drugs Lots of
us feel a bit of hinkiness....why? why?? leave a psychotic
with 5 babies , 6 months to 7 years.. obviously all too far
vulnerable!!
desi
VonQuark
Dryad wrote: [my note: these incredible words...]
> Although chasing down her 7 year old is pretty goldarned sane.
Dryad?! Do you think before you write?
D'ya wanna rephrase that last sentence?
DedNdogYrs
was the one in the family with deep religious feelings, and friends said she
deferred to him in public on a variety of subjects.>
Meaning she was subjugated and more of an employee than a wife.
<During the time the couple owned no home of their own, Russell Yates took a
five-day work trip to Florida in the family's recreational vehicle, passing up
an expense-paid airplane trip and hotel stay, according to federal records. It
could not be determined if he took his wife and children with him to fulfill
part of their travel dreams.>
A spouse and five children in a motor home could certainly drive someone to
murder (or mental illness).
Dogs & children first.
DedNdogYrs
penalty, Or maybe that was the unconscious plan? She didn't kill herself, so
Texas will do it for her?>
She couldn't have picked a better state for that purpose.
Dogs & children first.
debby
Kris Baker
>>: >nondenominational minister named Ron Collins has
>>: >advertised himself in Houston as a wedding specialist --
>>: >and as a gun dealer and message therapist. He could
>>: >not be reached for comment.
>>:
>>Kris wrote::
>>: A gun-totin', massage therapist/marriage specialist?
>>: That's an auspicious start!
>>
>patty said:
>>Does sound strange and does sound like a different type
>>of marriage. If she was a practical nonextravaggent person,
>>seems like living with him with his big dreams might be
>>difficult.
>
>***Don't you figure he just got the minister (or whatever he is)
>out of the phone book? I doubt this minister's other activities
>were of any interest to either of the Yates.
Since he "advertised" a lot, I figured he got the name from
a newspaper ad.
It just sounds odd to me (like everything else in this case)
that a religious man like Yates would be married by a non-
denominational pastor who apparently advertised in the
newspaper. Everything else in their lives seems very
conservative, which would usually mean that the religious
person has a church affiliation.
>>: Here's an odd "what if" question:
>>:
>>: What if the husband was the one making sure that
>>: his wife was on lots of psychotropic drugs - figuring
>>: that she'd perhaps kill herself?
>>:
>>: Kris
>
>***Uh, Kris, I'll remind you that no sane man with five very
>young children dreams of his wife's death--even if he hates her.
>Maggie
Why not? Look at all the problems it would solve, and
the opportunities it would present. Another wife, perhaps
less depressed, better suited to the life he wanted to
achieve.
We once had a family in our neighborhood similar to
this one. Psychotic wife, four children, professional
husband, affiliated with a majority religion. His religion
disdained divorcing her, and he stuck it out as long as
he could (many neighbors expected him to snap and
do something strange). He did eventually divorce
her, after he had begun an affair with someone who
was actually more "fitting" to the religious elders.
We can all speculate about various things. This isn't
what I would *hope* happened, only a possibility.
Kris
Kris
Maggie
>>>:
>>>: What if the husband was the one making sure that
>>>: his wife was on lots of psychotropic drugs - figuring
>>>: that she'd perhaps kill herself?
>>>:
>>>: Kris
>>
>>***Uh, Kris, I'll remind you that no sane man with five very
>>young children dreams of his wife's death--even if he hates her.
>>Maggie
>
>Why not? Look at all the problems it would solve, and
>the opportunities it would present. Another wife, perhaps
>less depressed, better suited to the life he wanted to
>achieve.
***Oh, yeah. All the pretty, young girls are just lining up to become the
mother of five children under the age of 8.
I think this guy was just stuck.
>We once had a family in our neighborhood similar to
>this one. Psychotic wife, four children, professional
>husband, affiliated with a majority religion. His religion
>disdained divorcing her, and he stuck it out as long as
>he could (many neighbors expected him to snap and
>do something strange). He did eventually divorce
>her, after he had begun an affair with someone who
>was actually more "fitting" to the religious elders.
***Well, sure. I bet many men are more than happy to leave their wives and
visit with the kids on alternate weekends. But I can't imagine you could find
a lot who would want to have the kids to themselves 24/7 with no wife across
town to care for them.
>We can all speculate about various things. This isn't
>what I would *hope* happened, only a possibility.
***Understood. I just think that--even in his dreams--it's highly unlikely.
Maggie
Dryad
In the context of her actions, chasing down the last remaining living child
is the rational thing to do.
Dryad, who's pretty sure that sentence makes sense
Kris Baker
Maggie wrote in message <20010624141303...@ng-mq1.aol.com>...
>>>>: Here's an odd "what if" question:
>>>>:
>>>>: What if the husband was the one making sure that
>>>>: his wife was on lots of psychotropic drugs - figuring
>>>>: that she'd perhaps kill herself?
>>>>:
>>>>: Kris
>>>
>>>***Uh, Kris, I'll remind you that no sane man with five very
>>>young children dreams of his wife's death--even if he hates her.
>>>Maggie
>>
>kris said;
>>Why not? Look at all the problems it would solve, and
>>the opportunities it would present. Another wife, perhaps
>>less depressed, better suited to the life he wanted to
>>achieve.
>
>***Oh, yeah. All the pretty, young girls are just lining up to
>become the mother of five children under the age of 8.
See below.
>I think this guy was just stuck.
>
>>We once had a family in our neighborhood similar to
>>this one. Psychotic wife, four children, professional
>>husband, affiliated with a majority religion. His religion
>>disdained divorcing her, and he stuck it out as long as
>>he could (many neighbors expected him to snap and
>>do something strange). He did eventually divorce
>>her, after he had begun an affair with someone who
>>was actually more "fitting" to the religious elders.
>
>***Well, sure. I bet many men are more than happy to
>leave their wives and visit with the kids on alternate weekends.
That's not what my neighbor did. He kept the kids,
divorced the wife, and started an even larger family
with the new sweetie (after all, it's her *job* here).
They lived directly across the street from us.
My next-door neighbor's wife divorced him, and HE
kept the kids, and raised them beautifully. He's a
single empty-nester.
Good Dads married to Bad Moms *can* (and do)
find solutions. There've been only two divorces
in my neighborhood (immediate 12 homes) in 25
years -- and in both cases, Dad kept the kids.
misn...@webtv.net
dangerous to have around.... why didn't she just send the kids to tommy
lee's for a swim?
Walkzwdogs
>coping? Perfectly stable? Still, I say,the man, was in
>heavy denial!!! After all, he left five babies to be
>drowned by her. After her attempt at self-murder, her
>father's death, her rounds of anti- psychotic drugs Lots of
>us feel a bit of hinkiness....why? why?? leave a psychotic
>with 5 babies , 6 months to 7 years.. obviously all too far
>vulnerable!!
>
>desi
>
That should have been the red light signal for NOT leaving them in her care
until she was totally well again.
Maggie
>> Are you so sure Mr Yates is perfectly sane?? Perfectly
>>coping? Perfectly stable? Still, I say,the man, was in
>>heavy denial!!! After all, he left five babies to be
>>drowned by her. After her attempt at self-murder, her
>>father's death, her rounds of anti- psychotic drugs Lots of
>>us feel a bit of hinkiness....why? why?? leave a psychotic
>>with 5 babies , 6 months to 7 years.. obviously all too far
>>vulnerable!!
>>
>>desi
>>
Not to mention that she had even SAID she had thoughts of KILLING the KIDS.
>That should have been the red light signal for NOT leaving them in her
>care
>until she was totally well again.
***Who did she say it to? Can you provide a source?
tiny dancer
"Maggie" <maggi...@aol.comSPAMBLOC> wrote in message
news:20010625141248...@ng-ch1.aol.com...
> >
> >> Are you so sure Mr Yates is perfectly sane?? Perfectly
> >>coping? Perfectly stable? Still, I say,the man, was in
> >>heavy denial!!! After all, he left five babies to be
> >>drowned by her. After her attempt at self-murder, her
> >>father's death, her rounds of anti- psychotic drugs Lots of
> >>us feel a bit of hinkiness....why? why?? leave a psychotic
> >>with 5 babies , 6 months to 7 years.. obviously all too far
> >>vulnerable!!
> >>
> >>desi
> >>
> >walkzwdogs said:
> Not to mention that she had even SAID she had thoughts of KILLING the
KIDS.
> >That should have been the red light signal for NOT leaving them in her
> >care
> >until she was totally well again.
>
> ***Who did she say it to? Can you provide a source?
What does it matter whether she actually spoke the words out loud or not,
would you *hire* someone to watch your five children who you know has a
history of suicide attempts and is right now suffering from severe
depression? If Mr Yates mother had been coming daily, why couldn't they
have fixed things so that she arrived *before* he left for work, and
departed *after* he arrived home again? And if the house was trashed and
the dishes were dirty, what *did* his mother do all day every day while she
was there??
tiny dancer
Alan Hope
programme, like this one from Kris Baker, calling from alt.true-crime:
>It just sounds odd to me (like everything else in this case)
>that a religious man like Yates would be married by a non-
>denominational pastor who apparently advertised in the
>newspaper. Everything else in their lives seems very
>conservative, which would usually mean that the religious
>person has a church affiliation.
Is it certain that's what happened? The report gives the name of the
pastor who married them, and mentions a pastor with a very similar
name. Ron Collins: how unusual a handle is that? Could it possibly be
there's no connection?
--
AH
Maggie
>> >> Are you so sure Mr Yates is perfectly sane?? Perfectly
>> >>coping? Perfectly stable? Still, I say,the man, was in
>> >>heavy denial!!! After all, he left five babies to be
>> >>drowned by her. After her attempt at self-murder, her
>> >>father's death, her rounds of anti- psychotic drugs Lots of
>> >>us feel a bit of hinkiness....why? why?? leave a psychotic
>> >>with 5 babies , 6 months to 7 years.. obviously all too far
>> >>vulnerable!!
>> >walkzwdogs said:
>> Not to mention that she had even SAID she had thoughts of KILLING the
>KIDS.
>> >That should have been the red light signal for NOT leaving them in her
>> >care
>> >until she was totally well again.
>>
maggie said:
>> ***Who did she say it to? Can you provide a source?
>
tiny dancer said:
>What does it matter whether she actually spoke the words out loud or not,
>would you *hire* someone to watch your five children who you know has a
>history of suicide attempts and is right now suffering from severe
>depression?
***Well, first off, it matters *to me* that's why I asked it. And I think it
should matter to anyone. If Mrs. Yates had threatened to hurt the children and
Mr. Yates knew that she had made that threat, I would agree that he was
irresponsible to leave them in her care for even an hour a day. OTOH, If he
thought, as I assume most of the millions of people who live with depressed
people think, that his wife was not violent and would never hurt the children,
I can't fault him for what he did. And, just for your information, I would
never in a million years hire my *husband* to babysit--he's absentminded and
doesn't seem to worry about what I think are the right things to worry about
with young children. However, I can't stop him from caring for his own kids.
Mr Yates mother had been coming daily, why couldn't they
>have fixed things so that she arrived *before* he left for work, and
>departed *after* he arrived home again?
***Well *I* certainly don't know. It sounds like you imagine she was off
casing banks for her son to rob on weekends (or something equally nefarious).
For pete's sake--this was not a young woman and she was working 7-hour days
caring for 5 kids. I can't help but think that she was doing everything she
could possibly do to help out her son and daughter-in-law. All this Monday
morning quarterbacking is just silly. If Andrea Yates wanted to kill her
children, she could have easily gotten up in the middle of the night and done
it (of course then, I suppose, you'd be whining about how horrible Mr. Yates
was because he didn't stand watch every night to make sure that everytime she
got up to go to the bathroom she didn't head to one of the children's rooms).
And if the house was trashed and
>the dishes were dirty, what *did* his mother do all day every day while
>she
>was there??
***Take care of the children, maybe?
It amazes me that you seem to think that caring for five young children is just
beyond the capabilities of a young woman like Andrea Yates and almost certainly
sent her into a deep depression, but should be well within the capabilities of
a woman well into her sixties. And damn it! She shoudda been there earlier!
Desi
Maggie wrote in message >
Snipped
>
>***Well, first off, it matters *to me* that's why I asked
it. And I think it
>should matter to anyone. If Mrs. Yates had threatened to
hurt the children and
>Mr. Yates knew that she had made that threat, I would agree
that he was
>irresponsible to leave them in her care for even an hour a
day. OTOH, If he
>thought, as I assume most of the millions of people who
live with depressed
>people think, that his wife was not violent and would never
hurt the children,
>I can't fault him for what he did.
Maggie, You keep referring to Andrea as merely depressed.
The evidence points to a psychosis as
far back as the suicide attempt. She was treated with Haldol
and anti-depressants at that time. The psychiatric nurses
obviously knew she was quite ill, as they alerted CPS> But
they found the children well cared for at her parents home.
A month later she & Rusty moved out of her parents home to
their current home. This time she was Haldol & Resperidal,
as well as two anti-depressants, at least since her two
hospitalizations in March & April, up until two weeks before
the drownings. It's clear that she was either schizophrenic
or in a psychotic state, at least since March
hospitaliaztion. I searched on *psychotic state* and most
of the links went to articles on schizophrenia and a few
other major mental illnesses that would cause them. Simply
defined , psychosis is any of several major mental
illnessess that cause hallucinations, delusions, serious
defects in judgment and insight, defects in the thinking
process, inability to objectively evaluate reality. Eerily
, I read that schizophrenia can be inherited. Knowing that
she was a nurse, she must have known how seriously ill she
was and known what haldol was used for. I wonder if she
knew she was getting worse and thought she had passed this
on genetically to her children?? Hence, her thoughts on them
being defective. I question how she could have
been behaving so normally, or is that just everyone's
story?? Her MIL said she was moving furniture on Tuesday??
Does one normally do that instead of the dishes? I mean if
your house is filthy and there's not a clean glass where do
you get the energy or notion to re-arrange the furniture?
No one saw this coming???
It's very hard to believe!!
desi
Maggie
>
>Snipped
>>
>>***Well, first off, it matters *to me* that's why I asked
>it. And I think it
>>should matter to anyone. If Mrs. Yates had threatened to
>hurt the children and
>>Mr. Yates knew that she had made that threat, I would agree
>that he was
>>irresponsible to leave them in her care for even an hour a
>day. OTOH, If he
>>thought, as I assume most of the millions of people who
>live with depressed
>>people think, that his wife was not violent and would never
>hurt the children,
>>I can't fault him for what he did.
>
>Maggie, You keep referring to Andrea as merely depressed.
>The evidence points to a psychosis as
>far back as the suicide attempt. She was treated with Haldol
>and anti-depressants at that time. The psychiatric nurses
>obviously knew she was quite ill, as they alerted CPS> But
>they found the children well cared for at her parents home.
>A month later she & Rusty moved out of her parents home to
>their current home. This time she was Haldol & Resperidal,
>as well as two anti-depressants, at least since her two
>hospitalizations in March & April, up until two weeks before
>the drownings. It's clear that she was either schizophrenic
>or in a psychotic state, at least since March
>hospitaliaztion.
***So what's your idea here? Do you think she was a diagnosed schizophrenic?
If she was, again, I'd agree with you. But if she hadn't been so diagnosed
(and we have no evidence at all that she was), I just can't fault the family
for not knowing more than the doctors knew.
I searched on *psychotic state* and most
>of the links went to articles on schizophrenia and a few
>other major mental illnesses that would cause them. Simply
>defined , psychosis is any of several major mental
>illnessess that cause hallucinations, delusions, serious
>defects in judgment and insight, defects in the thinking
>process, inability to objectively evaluate reality. Eerily
>, I read that schizophrenia can be inherited. Knowing that
>she was a nurse, she must have known how seriously ill she
>was and known what haldol was used for.
***You need to complete your research. Haldol is, indeed, used in the
treatment of schizophrenia. It is also used in the treatment of Tourette's
Syndrome. Do you think she has Tourette's Syndrome?
I wonder if she
>knew she was getting worse and thought she had passed this
>on genetically to her children?? Hence, her thoughts on them
>being defective. I question how she could have
>been behaving so normally, or is that just everyone's
>story?? Her MIL said she was moving furniture on Tuesday??
>Does one normally do that instead of the dishes? I mean if
>your house is filthy and there's not a clean glass where do
>you get the energy or notion to re-arrange the furniture?
>No one saw this coming???
>It's very hard to believe!!
***Oh, yes. The moving furniture should have been a direct tip off. How
stupid of the elder Mrs. Yates not to have picked that up.
Desi
Maggie wrote in message
<20010625171137...@ng-ch1.aol.com>...
I don't know either, whether it could be psychosis from an
affective disorder, or PPP, or schizophrenia, what's clear
with every new article, is that she was suffering
from a psychosis, severe enough for two recent
hospitalizations. Families see much more daily than a
physician ever possibly could.
>
> I searched on *psychotic state* and most
>>of the links went to articles on schizophrenia and a few
>>other major mental illnesses that would cause them.
Simply
>>defined , psychosis is any of several major mental
>>illnessess that cause hallucinations, delusions, serious
>>defects in judgment and insight, defects in the thinking
>>process, inability to objectively evaluate reality.
Eerily
>>, I read that schizophrenia can be inherited. Knowing that
>>she was a nurse, she must have known how seriously ill she
>>was and known what haldol was used for.
>
>***You need to complete your research. Haldol is, indeed,
used in the
>treatment of schizophrenia. It is also used in the
treatment of Tourette's
>Syndrome. Do you think she has Tourette's Syndrome?
It sure must be hot in the Carolina's lately! I didn't
mention Tourette's , nor that haldol can be used for delirum
in senile dementia , alcohol dependance and cancer
chemotherapy anymore than I would have mentioned *substance
abuse psychosis*, because it's
clearly not been a possibility in this case! Do you
another explanation why she might have been on an
anti-psychotic drug, other than she was psychotic?
>
> I wonder if she
>>knew she was getting worse and thought she had passed this
>>on genetically to her children?? Hence, her thoughts on
them
>>being defective. I question how she could have
>>been behaving so normally, or is that just everyone's
>>story?? Her MIL said she was moving furniture on
Tuesday??
>>Does one normally do that instead of the dishes? I mean
if
>>your house is filthy and there's not a clean glass where
do
>>you get the energy or notion to re-arrange the furniture?
>>No one saw this coming???
>>It's very hard to believe!!
>
>***Oh, yes. The moving furniture should have been a direct
tip off. How
>stupid of the elder Mrs. Yates not to have picked that up.
From a woman who is mentally ill, unable to cope,
needs her MIL daily, has to have a board up to help her
stresses, has a filthy house, not a clean glass,
yeah, I 'd say that is very odd behavior.
Do you think this woman was merely depressed or suffering
from a psychotic illness?
desi
Alan Hope
alt.true-crime:
>"Maggie" <maggi...@aol.comSPAMBLOC> wrote in message
>news:20010625141248...@ng-ch1.aol.com...
>> >> Are you so sure Mr Yates is perfectly sane?? Perfectly
>> >>coping? Perfectly stable? Still, I say,the man, was in
>> >>heavy denial!!! After all, he left five babies to be
>> >>drowned by her. After her attempt at self-murder, her
>> >>father's death, her rounds of anti- psychotic drugs Lots of
>> >>us feel a bit of hinkiness....why? why?? leave a psychotic
>> >>with 5 babies , 6 months to 7 years.. obviously all too far
>> >>vulnerable!!
>> >>desi
>> >walkzwdogs said:
>> Not to mention that she had even SAID she had thoughts of KILLING the
>KIDS.
>> >That should have been the red light signal for NOT leaving them in her
>> >care
>> >until she was totally well again.
>> ***Who did she say it to? Can you provide a source?
>What does it matter whether she actually spoke the words out loud or not,
>would you *hire* someone to watch your five children who you know has a
>history of suicide attempts and is right now suffering from severe
>depression?
Of course not. In the case of a mother of children, though, it's a
little bit more complicated. Mothers are so much harder to sack than
domestic employees. They do tend to hang on so.
>If Mr Yates mother had been coming daily, why couldn't they
>have fixed things so that she arrived *before* he left for work, and
>departed *after* he arrived home again?
Maybe that was too much for the woman, who knows? One thing's for
sure: they didn't have the benefit of hindsight which allows you to
mount into the pulpit. They did what they could. It appears they
underestimated the problem, but that sort of thing happens, you know.
Even her doctors were left open-mouthed, I'll bet.
>And if the house was trashed and
>the dishes were dirty, what *did* his mother do all day every day while she
>was there??
That's a picture we have of the day of the killings. It was hard to
find a clean glass. I'm not mentally ill, and my wife even less so
than me, and there are days like that at our house, too.
The morning in question, remember, the MIL was delayed, and Mrs Yates
herself, it appears, hadn't gotten around to doing the dishes. Other
things on her mind, I expect.
So what? You're going to turn this into a housekeeping question now?
How clean is your house every day? Are those dust-bunnies grounds for
committing you to a psychiatric institution?
--
AH
sal
>
> From a woman who is mentally ill, unable to cope,
> needs her MIL daily, has to have a board up to help her
> stresses, has a filthy house, not a clean glass,
> yeah, I 'd say that is very odd behavior.
>
> Do you think this woman was merely depressed or suffering
> from a psychotic illness?
>
> desi
>
Maybe she had been diagnosed as far more dangerous than has been reported,
but the list you've got there does not indicate it. A messy house ? She had
5 kids! I walk around my house *all day long* picking up stuff that my
kids simply discard as they go. On days when I am particulary tired
sometimes it just doesn't get done and clutter accumulates at an alarming
rate. We run out of clean glasses around here *at least* a couple of times
a week.
I'm not trying to state absolutely that no one could have predicted this
descent into madness; but if most of the clues have been made public then I
for sure can't say that I would have seen it coming.
-Sal
Maggie
>>***So what's your idea here? Do you think she was a
>diagnosed schizophrenic?
>>If she was, again, I'd agree with you. But if she hadn't
>been so diagnosed
>>(and we have no evidence at all that she was), I just can't
>fault the family
>>for not knowing more than the doctors knew.
>
>I don't know either, whether it could be psychosis from an
>affective disorder, or PPP, or schizophrenia, what's clear
>with every new article, is that she was suffering
>from a psychosis, severe enough for two recent
>hospitalizations.
***???? Are you under the impression that the only thing any mental patient is
ever hospitalized for is psychosis??? She had made a previous suicide attempt
and had been diagnosed with PPD. I think it's just as likely (or more likely)
that she was hospitalized due to fears/threats she might make another such
attempt.
Families see much more daily than a
>physician ever possibly could.
***Well, yes. But however much they see someone, they aren't qualified to
diagnose their mental illnesses.
>
>>
desi said:
>> I searched on *psychotic state* and most
>>>of the links went to articles on schizophrenia and a few
>>>other major mental illnesses that would cause them.
>Simply
>>>defined , psychosis is any of several major mental
>>>illnessess that cause hallucinations, delusions, serious
>>>defects in judgment and insight, defects in the thinking
>>>process, inability to objectively evaluate reality.
>Eerily
>>>, I read that schizophrenia can be inherited. Knowing that
>>>she was a nurse, she must have known how seriously ill she
>>>was and known what haldol was used for.
>>
maggie said:
>>***You need to complete your research. Haldol is, indeed,
>used in the
>>treatment of schizophrenia. It is also used in the
>treatment of Tourette's
>>Syndrome. Do you think she has Tourette's Syndrome?
>
desi said:
>It sure must be hot in the Carolina's lately! I didn't
>mention Tourette's , nor that haldol can be used for delirum
>in senile dementia , alcohol dependance and cancer
>chemotherapy anymore than I would have mentioned *substance
>abuse psychosis*, because it's
>clearly not been a possibility in this case! Do you
>another explanation why she might have been on an
>anti-psychotic drug, other than she was psychotic?
***I know next to nothing about this woman's medical history and you know the
same. Neither of us is in any position to make a diagnosis in her case. I
hope you didn't miss my point that the mere fact that haldol was prescribed
doesn't mean she was schizophrenic. And, FWIW, that alcohol/substance abuse
thing might well be what was going on. On what basis are you dismissing it?
>>
desi said:
>> I wonder if she
>>>knew she was getting worse and thought she had passed this
>>>on genetically to her children?? Hence, her thoughts on
>them
>>>being defective. I question how she could have
>>>been behaving so normally, or is that just everyone's
>>>story?? Her MIL said she was moving furniture on
>Tuesday??
>>>Does one normally do that instead of the dishes? I mean
>if
>>>your house is filthy and there's not a clean glass where
>do
>>>you get the energy or notion to re-arrange the furniture?
>>>No one saw this coming???
>>>It's very hard to believe!!
>>
maggie said:
>>***Oh, yes. The moving furniture should have been a direct
>tip off. How
>>stupid of the elder Mrs. Yates not to have picked that up.
>
desi said:
>From a woman who is mentally ill, unable to cope,
>needs her MIL daily, has to have a board up to help her
>stresses, has a filthy house, not a clean glass,
>yeah, I 'd say that is very odd behavior.
***Yes. I'm sure you would have picked up on it right away and saved those
children's lives. How stupid of the Yateses not to have known.
>
>Do you think this woman was merely depressed or suffering
>from a psychotic illness?
***I haven't the foggiest. And neither have you.
ponyduck
I agree about the house not being a particularly good indicator. To
my mind, there are different levels of "filth" & "unkempt." There's
the surface kind, with clutter all about, recently-dirtied dishes in
the sink, toys & clothing strewn about, etc.--all fairly normal in a
household with this many people. Then there's the hard-core filth:
cupboard & refrigerator doors covered with years-old grease & grime,
KFC bags containing dessicated chicken bones, trodden into the carpet,
matte coatings on toilet & sinks--you get the picture. I think if the
house was really unusually bad, we'd be hearing a little more about it
(like Idaho), rather than just a couple of comments from the officer &
the dad.
I also think that, even tho hubby et al. knew she was psychologically
disturbed, they never in their wildest dreams thought it would come to
this. Their worst-case scenario was probably more along the lines of
Andrea getting to the point of staying in bed all day, totally unable
to cope, crying all the time--just kind of a "nervous breakdown"-type
of thing. I imagine Andrea's track record of love & care for her
children precluded any thoughts that she would ever harm them.
From what we know thus far, I really can't find fault w/hubby, or
anyone surrounding Andrea.
-pony
Walkzwdogs
>> Not to mention that she had even SAID she had thoughts of KILLING the
>KIDS.
>> >That should have been the red light signal for NOT leaving them in her
>> >care
>> >until she was totally well again.
>>
>> ***Who did she say it to? Can you provide a source?
I read it somewhere (can't find it right now) that she had said that to her
husband. There is also the confession mentioned in the Newsweek article that
she admitted to having had thoughts about doing it:
(CONTEMPLATING MURDERING
Andrea had been contemplating murdering her children for some time,
according to her later confession. But Rusty’s mother, Dora Yates, thought
Andrea was getting better.)
Maggie
>>> Not to mention that she had even SAID she had thoughts of KILLING the
>>KIDS.
>>> >That should have been the red light signal for NOT leaving them in
>her
>>> >care
>>> >until she was totally well again.
>>>
>>> ***Who did she say it to? Can you provide a source?
>
>I read it somewhere (can't find it right now) that she had said that to
>her
>husband.
***Well, that sounds like the kind of statement that would headline every story
about the case, if it were true. I tend to think your source is not
authoritative. If you think of it, though, please post it.
There is also the confession mentioned in the Newsweek article
>that
>she admitted to having had thoughts about doing it:
>
>(CONTEMPLATING MURDERING
> Andrea had been contemplating murdering her children for some time,
>according to her later confession. But Rusty’s mother, Dora Yates, thought
>Andrea was getting better.)
***I suspect only those people recently having awakened from comas hadn't heard
that.
Desi
Maggie wrote in message
<20010625204934...@ng-ch1.aol.com>...
>maggie said:
>>>***So what's your idea here? Do you think she was a
>>diagnosed schizophrenic?
>>>If she was, again, I'd agree with you. But if she hadn't
>>been so diagnosed
>>>(and we have no evidence at all that she was), I just
can't
>>fault the family
>>>for not knowing more than the doctors knew.
>>
>desi said:
>>I don't know either, whether it could be psychosis from an
>>affective disorder, or PPP, or schizophrenia, what's clear
>>with every new article, is that she was suffering
>>from a psychosis, severe enough for two recent
>>hospitalizations.
>
>***???? Are you under the impression that the only thing
any mental patient is
>ever hospitalized for is psychosis???
Maggie
NO
Well, please TELL US what she was hospitalized for????
Keep in mind the outcome of five dead drowned babies, if
you can??? Please tell us why she was on powerful
anti-psychotics, if you can? Tell us, Maggie, what such a
wonderful person was doing in the hospital and WHY she tried
to KILL herself?? Please TELL US why she was on HALDOL. if
you can?
And while you are at it and suffering from the heat, which,
BTW, you don't have to take out on all of us,
you could tell us, ignorant posters, that we are, WHY
this MOm seems to have NO ONE to alleviate anything, any
stress, any help...that for eight years she took care of an
aging alzheimers Father, all the whilebeing pregnant five
times...
I have noted many posters telling you you are out of line
and being ...whatever....
Chill OUT Maggie
Desi
GMSpider
desi>
It's obvious that this woman was not merely depressed, she was psychotic.
Robert Resler in I Have Lived IN The Monster states on mental illness
"Our society does not seem to recognize gradients in mental illness - when
somebody is crazy, we expect that person to be wild-eyed. drooling at the
mouth, and never in control of his faculties. But there are insane people
who can frequently appear to be functioning, sane human beings, even though
deep down, at a fundamental level, they are beyond sanity."
The following is on Post Partum Psychosis, a lot differet fromPost Partum
Depression. This woman had problems even before the birth of the last child.
How much worse would it be for someone already mentally ill?
"THE MOST SEVERE FORM OF POST PARTUM DEPRESSION "POST PARTUM PSYCHOSIS"
Oten referred to as purephrial psychosis this rarest form of POST PARTUM
illness has been said to affect 1% to 3% of all new mothers.
This is 1 to 3 cases for every thousand births. "
The article is at......
http://members.aol.com/Tahlordawn/PostPartumPsychosis.html
CONSERVATIVE, n.
A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the
Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others.
The Devil's Dictionary
Leatrice Spevack
: >
: patty said:
: >Does sound strange and does sound like a different type
: >of marriage. If she was a practical nonextravaggent person,
: >seems like living with him with his big dreams might be
: >difficult.
: ***Don't you figure he just got the minister (or whatever he is) out of the
: phone book? I doubt this minister's other activities were of any interest to
: either of the Yates.
What I find odd is that such a supposedly "religious" man would agree to
have his marriage performed by this type of minister. Very odd indeed.
Leatrice
Maggie
>>>>***So what's your idea here? Do you think she was a
>>>diagnosed schizophrenic?
>>>>If she was, again, I'd agree with you. But if she hadn't
>>>been so diagnosed
>>>>(and we have no evidence at all that she was), I just
>can't
>>>fault the family
>>>>for not knowing more than the doctors knew.
>>>
>>desi said:
>>>I don't know either, whether it could be psychosis from an
>>>affective disorder, or PPP, or schizophrenia, what's clear
>>>with every new article, is that she was suffering
>>>from a psychosis, severe enough for two recent
>>>hospitalizations.
>>
>>***???? Are you under the impression that the only thing
>any mental patient is
>>ever hospitalized for is psychosis???
desi said:
>Well, please TELL US what she was hospitalized for????
***I don't know. And neither do you.
>Keep in mind the outcome of five dead drowned babies, if
>you can??? Please tell us why she was on powerful
>anti-psychotics, if you can?
***I don't know and neither do you.
Tell us, Maggie, what such a
>wonderful person was doing in the hospital and WHY she tried
>to KILL herself??
***I don't know and neither do you.
Please TELL US why she was on HALDOL. if
>you can?
>
>
>
>And while you are at it and suffering from the heat, which,
>BTW, you don't have to take out on all of us,
>you could tell us, ignorant posters, that we are, WHY
>this MOm seems to have NO ONE to alleviate anything, any
>stress, any help...that for eight years she took care of an
>aging alzheimers Father, all the whilebeing pregnant five
>times...
>
>I have noted many posters telling you you are out of line
>and being ...whatever....
>
>Chill OUT Maggie
Maggie
Maggie
>>desi said:
>>>I don't know either, whether it could be psychosis from an
>>>affective disorder, or PPP, or schizophrenia, what's clear
>>>with every new article, is that she was suffering
>>>from a psychosis, severe enough for two recent
>>>hospitalizations.
>>
>>***???? Are you under the impression that the only thing
>any mental patient is
>>ever hospitalized for is psychosis???
>
>Maggie
>
>NO
>
>Well, please TELL US what she was hospitalized for????
***I don't know and neither do you.
>Keep in mind the outcome of five dead drowned babies, if
>you can??? Please tell us why she was on powerful
>anti-psychotics, if you can?
***I don't know and neither do you.
Tell us, Maggie, what such a
>wonderful person was doing in the hospital and WHY she tried
>to KILL herself??
***I don't know and neither do you.
Please TELL US why she was on HALDOL. if
>you can?
***I don't know and neither do you.
>
>
>
>And while you are at it and suffering from the heat, which,
>BTW, you don't have to take out on all of us,
>you could tell us, ignorant posters, that we are, WHY
>this MOm seems to have NO ONE to alleviate anything, any
>stress, any help...that for eight years she took care of an
>aging alzheimers Father, all the whilebeing pregnant five
>times...
***I don't know and neither do you.
>
>I have noted many posters telling you you are out of line
>and being ...whatever....
>
>Chill OUT Maggie
***LOL. Look back over your comments and my comments, desi, and tell me which
one of us really needs to chill out.
You've made all sorts of assumptions based on, as many have pointed out, pretty
much NO information. I think the real topper was when you insisted that the
fact that Andrea was rearranging the furniture the day before the murders
should have been a tipoff to the elder Mrs. Yates that Andrea was going to kill
her children the next day.
You seem to be sort of out of control on this one.
Desi
Maggie wrote in message
<20010626150315...@ng-ch1.aol.com>...
Nope, you are! I insisted upon nothing and once again you
are changing my words to suit your silly self.
Here's what I said: *...I question how she could have been
behaving so normally, or is that everyone's story?
Her Mil said she was moving furniture on Tuesday? Does one
normally do that instead of dishes? I mean if your house is
filthy & there's not one clean glass where do you get the
energy or notion to re-arrange the furniture? No one saw
this coming? It's very hard to believe.
Note the question marks. For a woman who was so seriously
mentally ill/depressed, I still find that odd behavior. And
I posted that remark too. I personally have never sufferred
from clinical depression, but based upon the comments of the
posters who have, what I have read and the numbing effects
of the medications, the lack of energy and apathy I still
wonder how her MIL told Newsweek
she was behaving so normally, even moving furniture!!!!
I never once said, let alone insisted it should have been a
tip-off, rather I have questioned how everyone insists she
acted *normal*. You have a habit of twisting posters words.
>
>desi
tiny dancer
"Desi" <de...@cts.com> wrote in message
news:3b38e805$0$772$e2e...@nntp.cts.com...
I agree with you desi on everything, from one who has suffered from major
depression And especially that last sentence. And I also didn't appreciate
Maggies derogatory comments on "newbies". I wasn't aware new posters were
discriminated against so much or that we had to bow to Queen Maggie when
inserting our comments opinions etc. And I also stated earlier on one of
the threads, that people who are extremely depressed have absolutely no
interest in sex. Whether it's the way one feels or the effects of the meds
one is on, sex is the last thing on ones mind.
tiny dancer
Desi
tiny dancer wrote in message
<976_6.82279$ru2.24...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com>...
suffered from major
>depression And especially that last sentence. And I also
didn't appreciate
>Maggies derogatory comments on "newbies". I wasn't aware
new posters were
>discriminated against so much or that we had to bow to
Queen Maggie when
>inserting our comments opinions etc. And I also stated
earlier on one of
>the threads, that people who are extremely depressed have
absolutely no
>interest in sex. Whether it's the way one feels or the
effects of the meds
>one is on, sex is the last thing on ones mind.
>
>
>tiny dancer
I think if I had five kids, the last one being six months
old, sex would be the last thing on my mind too. Top that
off with meds.......
Maggie is a little more irritable lately, she blames it on
the heat. One wonders why she doesn't turn up the
air-conditioning??
desi
Insomniatrix
Cliff or Linda Griffith
> Families see much more daily than a
> >physician ever possibly could.
>
> ***Well, yes. But however much they see someone, they aren't qualified to
> diagnose their mental illnesses.
But having dealt with it before, they're more likely to see warning
signs than someone who doesn't see the person every day.
Linda
NEON NAPPI
the threads, that people who are extremely depressed have absolutely no
interest in sex. Whether it's the way one feels or the effects of the meds
one is on, sex is the last thing on ones mind.
tiny dancer
You stated it and I disputed it. I dont remember how we left it but I will tell
you I have been clinically depressed for long periods of time,and nothing, read
my lips, nothing including meds, gets in the way of my interest in sex with the
right person:)
Barbara<----------aware of not necessarily being typical at all:)
> >
Maggie
****A Mr. Yates on line two for you.
Patty
: > And I also stated earlier on one of
: >the threads, that people who are extremely depressed have absolutely no
: >interest in sex. Whether it's the way one feels or the effects of the meds
: >one is on, sex is the last thing on ones mind.
: >
: >
: >tiny dancer
: >
: >You stated it and I disputed it. I dont remember how we left it but I will
: >tell
: >you I have been clinically depressed for long periods of time,and nothing,
: >read
: >my lips, nothing including meds, gets in the way of my interest in sex with
: >the
: >right person:)
: >
: >
: >Barbara<----------aware of not necessarily being typical at all:)
:
: ****A Mr. Yates on line two for you.
:
: Maggie
And a Gary Condit is on line four.....and another one is blinking,
it's a Mr. Greineder, am I pronouncing that right..........
Patty
pacoyogi
Really, Desi and Kris Baker, maybe the two of you should open a
psychic friends hotline.
I can only comment that Maggie is generally correct: (paraphrasing),
we have no idea what this woman's diagnosis was at any given time, or
what exactly her medication was at any given time, or what her mental
state was at any given time.
We do not know what Robert Yates and his mother could or should have
done. I think it safe to say to that they will, over the remainder of
their lives, always wonder if Andrea Yates gave them clear signs that
they missed. Maybe she did---but how in hell would any of us know
that yet?
It is early days yet. Let us wait before we string anybody up, least
of all the people who weren't even in the house at the time of the
murders.
Yr. obedient servant,
pacoyogi
Maggie
***Very cogent summary. It's hard to see how anyone could disagree, but
disagree, they do.
Desi
pacoyogi wrote in message
<13fc1af0.01062...@posting.google.com>...
>Awful lot of Monday morning quarterbacking going on on this
thread.
>Really, Desi and Kris Baker, maybe the two of you should
open a
>psychic friends hotline.
~~Now that's funny, I have seen others disagree, I haven't
been getting/ or seeing too many Kris posts??
>
>I can only comment that Maggie is generally correct:
(paraphrasing),
>we have no idea what this woman's diagnosis was at any
given time, or
>what exactly her medication was at any given time, or what
her mental
>state was at any given time.
~~~I see, but Maggie can give her opinion on any subject and
we take *her's* as the correct one? I believe her siblings
are coming forward now with some facts, that will help not
only the families, but the public in
understanding mental illness and what caused this
>
>We do not know what Robert Yates and his mother could or
should have
>done. I think it safe to say to that they will, over the
remainder of
>their lives, always wonder if Andrea Yates gave them clear
signs that
>they missed. Maybe she did---but how in hell would any of
us know
>that yet?
>
>It is early days yet. Let us wait before we string anybody
up, least
>of all the people who weren't even in the house at the time
of the
>murders.
~~~I haven't been declaring anyone should be strung up
However it would be extremely dull if I scrolled down the
board and read *I agree, I agree, I agree, I agree!!!
Besides I see much more restraint here , than the idiots in
RL who said the mother should be shot and the Dad is fully
responsible, both of which were said on the radio!!
desi
>
>Yr. obedient servant,
>
>pacoyogi
Cliff or Linda Griffith
> : >You stated it and I disputed it. I dont remember how we left it but I will
> : >tell
> : >you I have been clinically depressed for long periods of time,and nothing,
> : >read
> : >my lips, nothing including meds, gets in the way of my interest in sex with
> : >the
> : >right person:)
> : >
> : >
> : >Barbara<----------aware of not necessarily being typical at all:)
> :
> : ****A Mr. Yates on line two for you.
> :
> : Maggie
> :
>
> And a Gary Condit is on line four.....and another one is blinking,
> it's a Mr. Greineder, am I pronouncing that right..........
>
> Patty
This is one of the things I enjoy most about alt.true-crime: the
cleverness of the posters!
Thanks, y'all!
Linda
Cliff or Linda Griffith
> >It is early days yet. Let us wait before we string anybody up, least
> >of all the people who weren't even in the house at the time of the
> >murders.
>
> ***Very cogent summary. It's hard to see how anyone could disagree, but
> disagree, they do.
>
> Maggie
>
> "Researchers have long known that there is one extremely common genetic factor
> that confers at least a ten-fold increase in the propensity to exhibit
> criminally violent behavior. It is called the Y chromosome."--Francis S.
> Collins
Well, I don't disagree. It's just that, lacking information, that's
just kinda what we *do* here, isn't it? Put our own spin on things, add
suppositions, and then perhaps find out later who among us guessed
right? After all, I have Chandra Levy cutlets in a freezer somewhere,
based on nothing except her disappearance. (Well, *I* don't, but I
suggested that the Condits might.) Fortunately, our indictments carry
no weight.
Linda
Cliff or Linda Griffith
> can too.
I was unaware of that. Having had a paranoid-schizophrenic mother and a
manic-depressive father, I was advised to be on guard for signs of
depression in myself because of my *father's* diagnosis.
> >I question how she could have
> >been behaving so normally, or is that just everyone's
> >story?? Her MIL said she was moving furniture on Tuesday??
> >Does one normally do that instead of the dishes? I mean if
> >your house is filthy and there's not a clean glass where do
> >you get the energy or notion to re-arrange the furniture?
> >No one saw this coming???
> >It's very hard to believe!!
I hope this isn't an indication of mental illness. Personally, I
*would* wash the dishes first; but it's not uncommon for me to find some
"task" to complete when others might be more important. "I need to
clean out this drawer. Hey! Here are some letters/poems/certificates
that I had forgotten about! I think I'll take a break and read them."
Or, "I need to sweep and mop the kitchen. First, I'll check and see if
I have any E-mail. Wonder what's going on with alt.true-crime? Oh,
well, I can mop tomorrow."
Linda
JonesieCat
"Cliff or Linda Griffith" <grif...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3B3E26A5...@home.com...
Oh, ain't that the truth. Why is it that whenever I have something really
pressing to do, I spend more time than even in front of the computer. I *do*
have something I *must* do in RL right now too! But I glad I didn't miss
you reference in another post to Chandra cutlets. Cutlets?!!
JC
NEON NAPPI
From: Cliff or Linda Griffith <grif...@home.com>
Thanks, y'all!
Linda
**********
Hey! I was very specific that it had to be the right person and you throw these
three losers at me???
mean they may be very nice but sexy.........................uh uh.
Have a little imagination...........perhaps Bill Clinton?:)
Barbara
Patty
"NEON NAPPI" <neon...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010630225124...@ng-ma1.aol.com...
:
: From: Cliff or Linda Griffith <grif...@home.com>
:
Patty (looking out the peephole) Barbs, OJ is at the door, are you in
or out?
mothra...@my-deja.com
<snip>
> If Andrea Yates wanted to kill her
> children, she could have easily gotten up in the middle of the night and done
> it (of course then, I suppose, you'd be whining about how horrible Mr. Yates
> was because he didn't stand watch every night to make sure that everytime she
> got up to go to the bathroom she didn't head to one of the children's rooms).
<snip>
Do you think Andrea Yates *wanted* to kill her children?
Martha
mothra...@my-deja.com
>
> "Desi" <de...@cts.com> wrote in news:3b37b149$0$774$e2e...@nntp.cts.com:
>
> >
> > From a woman who is mentally ill, unable to cope,
> > needs her MIL daily, has to have a board up to help her
> > stresses, has a filthy house, not a clean glass,
> > yeah, I 'd say that is very odd behavior.
> >
> > from a psychotic illness?
> >
> >
>
> Maybe she had been diagnosed as far more dangerous than has been reported,
> but the list you've got there does not indicate it. A messy house ? She had
> 5 kids! I walk around my house *all day long* picking up stuff that my
> kids simply discard as they go. On days when I am particulary tired
> sometimes it just doesn't get done and clutter accumulates at an alarming
> rate. We run out of clean glasses around here *at least* a couple of times
> a week.
>
> I'm not trying to state absolutely that no one could have predicted this
> descent into madness; but if most of the clues have been made public then I
> for sure can't say that I would have seen it coming.
But Sal, the Haldol and Risperdol are very important clues. Desi is
right--they are potent anti-psychotic drugs, no matter what other uses
Maggie has found for them. It's unlikely that *two* anti-psychotic
drugs were used each for its "other" effects. Someone, somewhere along
the line, *must* have diagnosed this woman with a mental illness even
more serious than chronic depression, or else someone was prescribing
drugs improperly. She was very, very sick, and she should not have been
left alone with her children.
Martha
mothra...@my-deja.com
>
> Coming up next, your comments and questions on issues discussed in the
> programme, like this one from Kris Baker, calling from alt.true-crime:
>
> >It just sounds odd to me (like everything else in this case)
> >that a religious man like Yates would be married by a non-
> >denominational pastor who apparently advertised in the
> >newspaper. Everything else in their lives seems very
> >conservative, which would usually mean that the religious
> >person has a church affiliation.
>
> Is it certain that's what happened? The report gives the name of the
> pastor who married them, and mentions a pastor with a very similar
> name. Ron Collins: how unusual a handle is that? Could it possibly be
> there's no connection?
I'm with Kris: "nondenominational" catches my eye every time,
especially *if* the husband is religious--wouldn't a religious person
*have* a denomination? Do you know what denomination the minister who
married them is?
Martha
NEON NAPPI
From: mothra...@my-deja.com
Martha
*******
He was Methodist, he had been , in high school, a member of the evangelical
Fellowship of Christian Athletes, his family before he married attended a
church. As a married coulple though, Rusty and Andrea never went to church.
Barbara
NEON NAPPI
From: mothra...@my-deja.com
Date: Sun, Jul 1, 2001 7:33 PM
Message-id: <3B3FB3...@erols.com>
Martha
My understanding from the information posted from posted articles is that she
had been taken off Haldol, I think 2 weeks prior to that day and that the other
two drugs she was currently on were Remeron and Effexor, both antidepressants.
I'm not sure about the Risperdol, I dont recall reading that she was taking it
but I might have missed it.
The husband said that she had been diagnosed with Post Partum Depression and
yes, the fact that she was taking Haldol was I think indicative that she had
gone into some kind of psychotic state. The fact that the Haldol had been used
in combination with 2 other drugs seemed to indicate that she was seriously
mentally ill.
I dont think we have any information that she was a danger to anyone other than
herself ( she had tried to commit suicide twice) and had been hospitalized at
least once in a mental institution.
She wasnt alone with the kids, her mother in law came in daily.
Barbara
Maggie
>
><snip>
>
>> If Andrea Yates wanted to kill her
>> children, she could have easily gotten up in the middle of the night and
>done
>> it (of course then, I suppose, you'd be whining about how horrible Mr.
>Yates
>> was because he didn't stand watch every night to make sure that everytime
>she
>> got up to go to the bathroom she didn't head to one of the children's
>rooms).
>
><snip>
>
>Do you think Andrea Yates *wanted* to kill her children?
***Absolutely. She said in her confession she'd been thinking about it for
months. As long as she was living with them, she could have found a way.
NEON NAPPI
From: mothra...@my-deja.com
Maggie wrote:
<snip>
<snip>
Martha
She *allegedly* told the police that she had been thinking of killing the
children for months but who knows what she might really have said and what she
had really been thinking as opposed to what she might have thought she was
thinking if you know what I mean.
Barbara
debby
order" Debby S.<sarg...@infi.net>
Patty
: > >I question how she could have
: > >been behaving so normally, or is that just everyone's
: > >story?? Her MIL said she was moving furniture on Tuesday??
: > >Does one normally do that instead of the dishes? I mean if
: > >your house is filthy and there's not a clean glass where do
: > >you get the energy or notion to re-arrange the furniture?
: > >No one saw this coming???
: > >It's very hard to believe!!
:
: I hope this isn't an indication of mental illness. Personally, I
: *would* wash the dishes first; but it's not uncommon for me to find some
: "task" to complete when others might be more important. "I need to
: clean out this drawer. Hey! Here are some letters/poems/certificates
: that I had forgotten about! I think I'll take a break and read them."
: Or, "I need to sweep and mop the kitchen. First, I'll check and see if
: I have any E-mail. Wonder what's going on with alt.true-crime? Oh,
: well, I can mop tomorrow."
:
: Linda
I guess Linda's sweeping and mopping the kitchen floor today.
Patty
NEON NAPPI
Linda wrote:
: I hope this isn't an indication of mental illness. Personally, I
: *would* wash the dishes first; but it's not uncommon for me to find some
: "task" to complete when others might be more important. "I need to
: clean out this drawer. Hey! Here are some letters/poems/certificates
: that I had forgotten about! I think I'll take a break and read them."
: Or, "I need to sweep and mop the kitchen. First, I'll check and see if
: I have any E-mail. Wonder what's going on with alt.true-crime? Oh,
: well, I can mop tomorrow."
:
: Linda
/I guess Linda's sweeping and mopping the kitchen floor today.
/Patty
Shhhhhhhh............she's off *having sex*.
Mopping indeed!
Barbara
Desi
Walkzwdogs wrote in message
<20010701233744...@ng-fa1.aol.com>...
>>She *allegedly* told the police that she had been thinking
of killing the
>>children for months but who knows what she might really
have said and what
>>she
>>had really been thinking as opposed to what she might have
thought she was
>>thinking if you know what I mean.
>>
>>Barbara
>>
was pregnant, which
>was later disputed, so I don't think one can take anything
she says as fact
>because she may not even know herself.
Perhaps Andrea *thought* she was pregnant, which is a
significant factor. Some of the side effects of Halddol are
menstral irregularity and breast engorgement.
Of course we haven;t heard for sure , if she is or isn't
desi
sal
Yes, but we have hindsight to confirm that. I'm not arguing that she was
fine. But her husband had seen her "recover" from depression before, and
therefore had reason to believe that she would do so again. He wasn't
leaving her alone, he had gotten her nearly full time help. And I bet that
nobody is second guessing his decisions as much as he is.
If I try to put myself in his position: my spouse, who I love dearly, is
ill, but we've gotten through it once before. I'm in communication with his
doctors, I call on family to help him with the kids. I watch carefully, do
everything I can think of to help, and wait for things to improve this
time. I know he loves our children. My biggest fear is that he will hurt
himself. I don't think I could have seen this coming.
It may yet come out that there were signs he ignored. Maybe her doctors
told him she should be kept away from the children. But Desi's plywood,
overreaction to some dirty dishes & furniture arranging, ridicule of the
children's attempts to help, and various posters claim that he was forcing
her to have all these babies...none of these things make any sense to me.
-Sal
-Sal
NEON NAPPI
From: nom...@nggak.org (sal)
-Sal
I totally agree even if you have said it all better than I have been doing.
I think what really got to me the most was , as you say, the ridicule of the
fact that he had not dummied up with the kids ( as my family had done with me)
and in fact let them help in any small way that they could.
Barbara
debby
pressure way up. It's really a terrible medication. She should also get
an examination to see if she has a brain tumor. Debby
S.<sarg...@infi.net> I can see this, 5 kids and a migraine headache
from the drug all the time.
mothra...@my-deja.com
> martha said:
> >Do you think Andrea Yates *wanted* to kill her children?
>
> ***Absolutely. She said in her confession she'd been thinking about it for
> months. As long as she was living with them, she could have found a way.
First, I should note that "thinking about" doing something horrible is
often a symptom of serious mental illness. Sometimes these thoughts
come unbidden and certainly unwelcome. I would suspect that her being
prescribed Haldol might have had something to do with thoughts just like
these.
But taking what you say at face value:
Do you think her plan all along was to drown them and then confess, or
do you think she wanted to escape, to start over on her own or
something? *Why* do you think she wanted to kill them?
Martha
mothra...@my-deja.com
But seriously: I've been in situations where the mess was so great that
it *did* make sense to start with the big stuff, to move the furniture
first, especially if the person were mentally ill and planned to scrub
from floor to ceiling. Part of the reason Andrea Yates may have felt
overwhelmed (pace Magee: assuming she *did* feel overwhelmed) might be
that with her mental state it was not possible for her to see that
simply washing the glasses would have been a good first step. If, as I
suspect, she wanted to be the Perfect Mother, she would (of course) want
*everything* including the furniture arrangement to be just right.
Martha
mothra...@my-deja.com
I don't see the reason to blame *anyone* for this terrible tragedy--and
before the stones begin flying, yes, she killed them and if she hadn't
killed them they wouldn't be dead--and of course it's simple for us at
this distance of time and space and mental health to see where things
might have been better handled.
I do not think he *forced* her to have all those babies. It's my
opinion that she is a victim of chronic depression, maybe related to
that first bout of post-partum depression, and that she would not object
or even raise a question about anything that went on in her marriage. I
remember reading his saying that they had decided they would have as
many babies as god gave them. Maybe she felt locked into that; maybe
she was unable to articulate her desire to change that plan; maybe she
still felt that way. All I know is that she was seriously mentally ill
and taking medications that notoriously destroy the desire to have sex,
yet the babies kept coming. I do not blame him for this nor do I see it
as his "forcing" anything. I think maybe she was not in a position to
give if not legal then surely moral consent.
I'd like to know what kind of person the mother-in-law is, and what
exactly she did when she came to the house. With two adults, I would
have expected the house to be clean or at least neat. Did Andrea resist
her mother-in-law's efforts to help her? If Andrea felt she should be
"perfect," maybe it was too hard for her to admit to the kinds of help
she really could have used.
I don't doubt that everyone involved loved the children dearly--even and
maybe especially Andrea Yates. And I don't think anyone can be blamed,
unless we blame Society for not having a more compassionate view toward
mental illness. If we lived in a society where mental illness was
treated like any other form of disease, maybe it would have been easier
for Andrea Yates to ask for treatment beyond what she was receiving
(which clearly wasn't adequate). If she'd had an ulcer that wouldn't
heal despite years of treatment, I doubt that she'd have been left to
deal with it pretty much on her own, with her husband and mother-in-law
"helping out" as much as they could. She needed professional
intervention, but we are not prepared to make that available in these
situations, or even easy to ask for.
Martha
Maggie
>> >Do you think Andrea Yates *wanted* to kill her children?
>>
>> ***Absolutely. She said in her confession she'd been thinking about it
>for
>> months. As long as she was living with them, she could have found a way.
>
>First, I should note that "thinking about" doing something horrible is
>often a symptom of serious mental illness. Sometimes these thoughts
>come unbidden and certainly unwelcome. I would suspect that her being
>prescribed Haldol might have had something to do with thoughts just like
>these.
>
>But taking what you say at face value:
>Do you think her plan all along was to drown them and then confess, or
>do you think she wanted to escape, to start over on her own or
>something? *Why* do you think she wanted to kill them?
***She wanted to kill them because they were defective--she was a bad mother
and had raised defective children. I think, additionally, that it's entirely
possible that she thought she was pregnant again and her idea was that she was
going to start over with this new, sixth, baby and do it right. Obviously this
was all part of her mental illness, but it doesn't mean she didn't desperately
want to kill those children.
Maggie
>I'd like to know what kind of person the mother-in-law is, and what
>exactly she did when she came to the house. With two adults, I would
>have expected the house to be clean or at least neat. Did Andrea resist
>her mother-in-law's efforts to help her? If Andrea felt she should be
>"perfect," maybe it was too hard for her to admit to the kinds of help
>she really could have used.
***Probably. As for the messy house, my god--there were five small children
there. Even if the MIL left it spotless, with every dish and glass clean at 5
pm the previous day, if no one had cleaned/cleared the dinner and breakfast
dishes (or even just the breakfast dishes) and put away the children's toys, it
would have looked like a tornado hit it by 10 am the next day. It would be
interesting to know exactly how unkempt it was when the policeman saw it, or
what Andrea might have done to it that morning, but just because someone
reported it was a mess (or whatever) that doesn't mean that the MIL and Rusty
weren't doing something.
>
>I don't doubt that everyone involved loved the children dearly--even and
>maybe especially Andrea Yates. And I don't think anyone can be blamed,
>unless we blame Society for not having a more compassionate view toward
>mental illness. If we lived in a society where mental illness was
>treated like any other form of disease, maybe it would have been easier
>for Andrea Yates to ask for treatment beyond what she was receiving
>(which clearly wasn't adequate). If she'd had an ulcer that wouldn't
>heal despite years of treatment, I doubt that she'd have been left to
>deal with it pretty much on her own, with her husband and mother-in-law
>"helping out" as much as they could. She needed professional
>intervention, but we are not prepared to make that available in these
>situations, or even easy to ask for.
***She saw a physician regularly--had seen one *two days* before the murders.
She was in and out of hospitals at least twice just this past spring. This
woman was NOT dealing with this on her own. I cannot figure out why people say
she was.
mothra...@my-deja.com
>
> >> martha said:
> >> >Do you think Andrea Yates *wanted* to kill her children?
> >>
> maggie said;
> >> ***Absolutely. She said in her confession she'd been thinking about it
> >for
> >> months. As long as she was living with them, she could have found a way.
> >
> >First, I should note that "thinking about" doing something horrible is
> >often a symptom of serious mental illness. Sometimes these thoughts
> >come unbidden and certainly unwelcome. I would suspect that her being
> >prescribed Haldol might have had something to do with thoughts just like
> >these.
> >
> >But taking what you say at face value:
> >Do you think her plan all along was to drown them and then confess, or
> >do you think she wanted to escape, to start over on her own or
> >something? *Why* do you think she wanted to kill them?
>
> ***She wanted to kill them because they were defective--she was a bad mother
> and had raised defective children. I think, additionally, that it's entirely
> possible that she thought she was pregnant again and her idea was that she was
> going to start over with this new, sixth, baby and do it right. Obviously this
> was all part of her mental illness, but it doesn't mean she didn't desperately
> want to kill those children.
Interesting. Is there anything in particular about the children that
make you think she might have considered them "defective?" They looked
OK to me--were they notorious for bad behavior or something? Or is this
your gut talking?
And if she desperately wanted to kill them, I wonder why she waited so
long--unless you think it was the thought of a sixth child that
triggered her actions. In that case, I wonder why she didn't try to
disguise her murder, make it look like someone else had killed
them--surely she knows she's going to be punished? Do you think she
thought she could get away with this and walk out of the maternity ward
with the new, improved model? That no one would notice that she'd
killed her previous brood?
Martha
mothra...@my-deja.com
I haven't seen any posts saying that she was dealing with it on her own.
Until her aged mother in law arrived, what? two months ago? she was
alone with five children all day--that she was doing on her own. She
was, as we know now, seriously mentally ill but was seeing doctors
regularly. I think it's normal to question why this serious mental
illness wasn't noticed, unless she's the world's best actress. I wonder
who took care of the children while she went to the doctor, or if she
had to take them along with her--that could have skewed the doctor's
perceptions of the situation, if she put up a brave face, and they were
nice kids and all. It might be a normal doctor reaction to believe that
she was experiencing the normal stress of having so many kids, not
anything beyond or more dangerous than that. And who took care of the
children when she was hospitalized? What about their schooling while
mom was in the hospital? Is it possible that there was reluctance for
non-medical reasons to have her back in the hospital? If she was seeing
a psychiatrist for "talking therapy" she couldn't have had the kids in
the room with her--but then, who was prescribing these psycho-active
drugs?
Martha
sal
I believe this has been reported as what she said to authorities after her
arrest.
> And if she desperately wanted to kill them, I wonder why she waited so
> long--unless you think it was the thought of a sixth child that
> triggered her actions. In that case, I wonder why she didn't try to
> disguise her murder, make it look like someone else had killed
> them--surely she knows she's going to be punished? Do you think she
> thought she could get away with this and walk out of the maternity ward
> with the new, improved model? That no one would notice that she'd
> killed her previous brood?
>
> Martha
>
I can't really claim any experience with mental illness of this caliber. I
assume that she was compelled somehow, irresistably, to do what she did. I
doubt that she thought it out along these lines, or considered the
consequences. I'm not sure it makes sense to try to figure out whether she
*wanted* to do it. I think that's the wrong verb.
-Sal
Desi
sal wrote in message ...
My reaction to that was the report of the policeman on the
scene, and yes, I still think it is odd, with two apparently
healthy adults the house would be filthy and in chaos. Not
toys, bottles or strollers all over, not *picked up*, but
dirty. It's a clear indication to me, despite MIL being
there, things were not working and very wrong. Secondly, I
forget that many posters may not have seen an adult on
Haldol, they are paralyzingly
tranquilized, that in addition to double doses of
anti-depressants would be a zombie. Therefore these
young children were in no position, stress boards to help or
not, to cope or help their mother.
desi
>
>-Sal
>
>
>
>
Alan Hope
>From: mothra...@my-deja.com
>Maggie wrote:
><snip>
>> If Andrea Yates wanted to kill her
>> children, she could have easily gotten up in the middle of the night and done
>> it (of course then, I suppose, you'd be whining about how horrible Mr. Yates
>> was because he didn't stand watch every night to make sure that everytime she
>> got up to go to the bathroom she didn't head to one of the children's rooms).
><snip>
>Do you think Andrea Yates *wanted* to kill her children?
>She *allegedly* told the police that she had been thinking of killing the
>children for months but who knows what she might really have said and what she
>had really been thinking as opposed to what she might have thought she was
>thinking if you know what I mean.
She thought about it, but that doesn't necessarily mean she wanted to
do it. Maybe the fact that she didn't for so long implies she was
resisting an impulse. In the end, she was unable to resist any longer.
I've been thinking about sanding some bookshelves for months now, but
so far I've resisted. You mustn't go thinking I want to do it.
--
AH
Alan Hope
alt.true-crime:
>sal wrote:
>> "Desi" <de...@cts.com> wrote in news:3b37b149$0$774$e2e...@nntp.cts.com:
>> > From a woman who is mentally ill, unable to cope,
>> > needs her MIL daily, has to have a board up to help her
>> > stresses, has a filthy house, not a clean glass,
>> > yeah, I 'd say that is very odd behavior.
>> > Do you think this woman was merely depressed or suffering
>> > from a psychotic illness?
>> Maybe she had been diagnosed as far more dangerous than has been reported,
>> but the list you've got there does not indicate it. A messy house ? She had
>> 5 kids! I walk around my house *all day long* picking up stuff that my
>> kids simply discard as they go. On days when I am particulary tired
>> sometimes it just doesn't get done and clutter accumulates at an alarming
>> rate. We run out of clean glasses around here *at least* a couple of times
>> a week.
>> I'm not trying to state absolutely that no one could have predicted this
>> descent into madness; but if most of the clues have been made public then I
>> for sure can't say that I would have seen it coming.
>But Sal, the Haldol and Risperdol are very important clues. Desi is
>right--they are potent anti-psychotic drugs, no matter what other uses
>Maggie has found for them. It's unlikely that *two* anti-psychotic
>drugs were used each for its "other" effects. Someone, somewhere along
>the line, *must* have diagnosed this woman with a mental illness even
>more serious than chronic depression, or else someone was prescribing
>drugs improperly. She was very, very sick, and she should not have been
>left alone with her children.
Psychotic doesn't mean the same as homicidal. There'll be no advance
in the public perception of mental illness until the distinction is
grasped.
Of course, in this case she turned out to *be* homicidal. But the
prescription of anti-psychotic drugs doesn't mean a person is a risk
of homicide. Not at all.
--
AH
tiny dancer
"Maggie" <maggi...@aol.comSPAMBLOC> wrote in message
news:20010702114326...@ng-cg1.aol.com...
Seeing a physician for a medication check is usually a twenty minute
appointment. It is definetly not a lengthy visit. It was stated that they
were *thinking of involving her in therapy" so I would assume this was not a
visit to throughly discuss her problems.
tiny dancer
tiny dancer
"Alan Hope" <ah...@skynet.be> wrote in message
news:tn71kt4fee8f45uc4...@4ax.com...
Maybe the fact that while she was on the Haldol she was able to keep these
thoughts under control, or more likely, when one is on that heavy doses of
medication all kinds of thoughts run through ones mind, but because of the
drugs one is unable to formulate plans for much of anything. She was taken
off of the Haldol two weeks before. The medication that *kept those
thoughts* under control was removed, and most likely her zombie like state
also subsided somewhat. Anti psychotic medications keep people pretty much
in a state of lethargy, unable to do much of anything and also keep the
*voices* under control. Without it the voices return and the lethargy
lifts.
tiny dancer
mothra...@my-deja.com
You are absolutely correct, but I was addressing the impression I've
gotten from some posters here that a) Andrea Yates wasn't seriously
mentally ill enough for anyone to worry about the safety of her children
or b) well, the severity of her mental illness was recognized but there
was nothing more anyone could do about it. I think the fact that she
had been prescribed serious medication is the one indisputable indicator
that she was in enough distress that it was, perhaps, foolish to leave
her alone with five children all day, every day--whether she was sick
enough to kill the children is not my point.
Martha
Maggie
>> Psychotic doesn't mean the same as homicidal. There'll be no advance
>> in the public perception of mental illness until the distinction is
>> grasped.
>>
>> Of course, in this case she turned out to *be* homicidal. But the
>> prescription of anti-psychotic drugs doesn't mean a person is a risk
>> of homicide. Not at all.
>
>You are absolutely correct, but I was addressing the impression I've
>gotten from some posters here that a) Andrea Yates wasn't seriously
>mentally ill enough for anyone to worry about the safety of her children
>or b) well, the severity of her mental illness was recognized but there
>was nothing more anyone could do about it. I think the fact that she
>had been prescribed serious medication is the one indisputable indicator
>that she was in enough distress that it was, perhaps, foolish to leave
>her alone with five children all day, every day--whether she was sick
>enough to kill the children is not my point.
***So what do you think they should have done?
Maggie
sal
> Alan Hope wrote:
<snip>
>> Psychotic doesn't mean the same as homicidal. There'll be no advance
>> in the public perception of mental illness until the distinction is
>> grasped.
>>
>> Of course, in this case she turned out to *be* homicidal. But the
>> prescription of anti-psychotic drugs doesn't mean a person is a risk
>> of homicide. Not at all.
>
> You are absolutely correct, but I was addressing the impression I've
> gotten from some posters here that a) Andrea Yates wasn't seriously
> mentally ill enough for anyone to worry about the safety of her
> children or b) well, the severity of her mental illness was recognized
> but there was nothing more anyone could do about it. I think the fact
> that she had been prescribed serious medication is the one indisputable
> indicator that she was in enough distress that it was, perhaps, foolish
> to leave her alone with five children all day, every day--whether she
> was sick enough to kill the children is not my point.
>
> Martha
She was not left "alone with five children all day, every day". If she had
been, I would agree that her husband was remiss. It sounds to me as though
they tried to cover nearly all of her time alone with the children, and her
MIL even took the older ones home with her on a fairly regular basis.
-Sal
NEON NAPPI
From: Alan Hope <ah...@skynet.be>
Date: Mon, Jul 2, 2001 1:30 PM
Message-id: <tn71kt4fee8f45uc4...@4ax.com>
Coming up next, your comments and questions on issues discussed in the
programme, like this one from NEON NAPPI, calling from alt.true-crime:
>From: mothra...@my-deja.com
>Maggie wrote:
><snip>
>> If Andrea Yates wanted to kill her
>> children, she could have easily gotten up in the middle of the night and
done
>> it (of course then, I suppose, you'd be whining about how horrible Mr. Yates
>> was because he didn't stand watch every night to make sure that everytime
she
>> got up to go to the bathroom she didn't head to one of the children's
rooms).
><snip>
>Do you think Andrea Yates *wanted* to kill her children?
>She *allegedly* told the police that she had been thinking of killing the
>children for months but who knows what she might really have said and what she
>had really been thinking as opposed to what she might have thought she was
>thinking if you know what I mean.
/She thought about it, but that doesn't necessarily mean she wanted to
/do it. Maybe the fact that she didn't for so long implies she was
/resisting an impulse. In the end, she was unable to resist any longer.
/I've been thinking about sanding some bookshelves for months now, but
/so far I've resisted. You mustn't go thinking I want to do it.
--
/AH
************
I didnt write the first paragraph about her being able to get up in the middle
of the night if she really wanted to kill her children, I believe Maggie did
and I guess it was Martha who said "Do you think Andrea Yates *wanted* to kill
her children?" ( my aol just doesnt make those little sideways carats).
I did however say that just because the police *said* that she said she had
been thinking about killing the kids for months doesnt necessarily mean she did
either say it or think it.
I just dont believe the leaks are not purposely truncated.
Barbara
Maggie
>> >I'd like to know what kind of person the mother-in-law is, and what
>> >exactly she did when she came to the house. With two adults, I would
>> >have expected the house to be clean or at least neat. Did Andrea resist
>> >her mother-in-law's efforts to help her? If Andrea felt she should be
>> >"perfect," maybe it was too hard for her to admit to the kinds of help
>> >she really could have used.
>>
>> ***She saw a physician regularly--had seen one *two days* before the
murders.
>> She was in and out of hospitals at least twice just this past spring.
> This
>> woman was NOT dealing with this on her own. I cannot figure out why people
>say
>> she was.
>
>I haven't seen any posts saying that she was dealing with it on her own.
***Isn't that what you implied when you said," If she'd had an ulcer that
wouldn't heal despite years of treatment, I doubt that she'd have been left to
deal with it pretty much on her own, with her husband and mother-in-law
"helping out" as much as they could.
>Until her aged mother in law arrived, what? two months ago? she was
>alone with five children all day--that she was doing on her own. She
>was, as we know now, seriously mentally ill but was seeing doctors
>regularly. I think it's normal to question why this serious mental
>illness wasn't noticed, unless she's the world's best actress.
***Who said it wasn't noticed?
I wonder
>who took care of the children while she went to the doctor, or if she
>had to take them along with her--that could have skewed the doctor's
>perceptions of the situation, if she put up a brave face, and they were
>nice kids and all. It might be a normal doctor reaction to believe that
>she was experiencing the normal stress of having so many kids, not
>anything beyond or more dangerous than that. And who took care of the
>children when she was hospitalized? What about their schooling while
>mom was in the hospital? Is it possible that there was reluctance for
>non-medical reasons to have her back in the hospital? If she was seeing
>a psychiatrist for "talking therapy" she couldn't have had the kids in
>the room with her--but then, who was prescribing these psycho-active
>drugs?
***I'd like to think that her family was helping out at least a little with the
kids, but I haven't heard a thing about it. My guess is that Mr. Yates was
pretty much maxed out on his leave and I'd bet the insurer was breathing down
the necks of the physicians, as well.
tiny dancer
> Martha said:
> >You are absolutely correct, but I was addressing the impression I've
> >gotten from some posters here that a) Andrea Yates wasn't seriously
> >mentally ill enough for anyone to worry about the safety of her children
> >or b) well, the severity of her mental illness was recognized but there
> >was nothing more anyone could do about it. I think the fact that she
> >had been prescribed serious medication is the one indisputable indicator
> >that she was in enough distress that it was, perhaps, foolish to leave
> >her alone with five children all day, every day--whether she was sick
> >enough to kill the children is not my point.
>
> ***So what do you think they should have done?
>
> Maggie
She should have been monitered in an inpatient setting. Short of that she
should have been seeing a psychologist a minimum of three times a week for
talk therapy, and she should never have been left alone with those children.
If Mr Yates mother had been coming daily anyway they should have scheduled
it so that she arrived before he left for work and departed when he arrived
home.
tiny dancer
Maggie
>> >You are absolutely correct, but I was addressing the impression I've
>> >gotten from some posters here that a) Andrea Yates wasn't seriously
>> >mentally ill enough for anyone to worry about the safety of her children
>> >or b) well, the severity of her mental illness was recognized but there
>> >was nothing more anyone could do about it. I think the fact that she
>> >had been prescribed serious medication is the one indisputable indicator
>> >that she was in enough distress that it was, perhaps, foolish to leave
>> >her alone with five children all day, every day--whether she was sick
>> >enough to kill the children is not my point.
>>
>> ***So what do you think they should have done?
>>
>> Maggie
>
>
>She should have been monitered in an inpatient setting. Short of that she
>should have been seeing a psychologist a minimum of three times a week for
>talk therapy, and she should never have been left alone with those children.
>If Mr Yates mother had been coming daily anyway they should have scheduled
>it so that she arrived before he left for work and departed when he arrived
>home.
***All hindsight.
Maggie
Mhw61
>>> >You are absolutely correct, but I was addressing the impression I've
>>> >gotten from some posters here that a) Andrea Yates wasn't seriously
>>> >mentally ill enough for anyone to worry about the safety of her children
>>> >or b) well, the severity of her mental illness was recognized but there
>>> >was nothing more anyone could do about it. I think the fact that she
>>> >had been prescribed serious medication is the one indisputable indicator
>>> >that she was in enough distress that it was, perhaps, foolish to leave
>>> >her alone with five children all day, every day--whether she was sick
>>> >enough to kill the children is not my point.
>>>
>>> ***So what do you think they should have done?
>>>
>>> Maggie
>>
>>
>tiny dancer said:
>>She should have been monitered in an inpatient setting. Short of that
>she
>>should have been seeing a psychologist a minimum of three times a week
>for
>>talk therapy, and she should never have been left alone with those children.
>>If Mr Yates mother had been coming daily anyway they should have scheduled
>>it so that she arrived before he left for work and departed when he arrived
>>home.
>
>***All hindsight.
All hindsight is true. And now for some pure speculation on my part: a lot of
mental health professionals feel that younger children, especially, need to
have their mom around. It's possible that the Yates family and/or their
caregivers believed that having Mom confined to an institution would be worse
for the family than having her at home. After all, most people with mental
health problems don't kill their kids, and they may have thought that the risks
of leaving her children in her care (with help) were lower than yanking her off
to an institution. As I said, total speculation on my part.
>
>Maggie
>
>"Researchers have long known that there is one extremely common genetic
>factor
>that confers at least a ten-fold increase in the propensity to exhibit
>criminally violent behavior. It is called the Y chromosome."--Francis S.
>Collins
>
Max
"I'd rather blow an engine than get passed by a damn Dallara."
--Eddie Cheever
tiny dancer
"Maggie" <maggi...@aol.comSPAMBLOC> wrote in message
You were the one who asked "so what do you think they should've done"
weren't you? What the hell do you expect that wouldn't be considered
hindsight??
tiny dancer
Maggie
>> ***All hindsight.
td said:
>You were the one who asked "so what do you think they should've done"
>weren't you? What the hell do you expect that wouldn't be considered
>hindsight??
***What I'm asking (didn't know it was so complicated) is what you would have
done in Mr. Yates's situation *before you knew Mrs. Yates killed all five of
her children*. Of course we know now that she should have been monitored in an
inpatient setting and should have never had unsupervised contact with her
children and should have been getting all kinds of therapy under a 24-hour
suicide watch. But unless there's something very big that hasn't been
revealed, no physician is going to commit a woman on the facts as we know them.
After all, the point of the Haldol (which I know she wasn't taking when she
killed the children) was to allow her to function and keep her *out* of mental
hospitals. And no insurance company in the world would have paid for three
times a week talk therapy based on the facts as we know them *before the
crime*. I agree that the Yateses should have tried to convince the doctors (I
doubt it would have been difficult) to prescribe/recommend some sort of talking
therapy for Andrea, if only so that there'd be another layer of supervision
over her (i.e., to cover their asses). But I also think the doctors should
probably have known even without the input of Mr. and Mrs. Yates that Andrea
needed a little more help than they were providing.
Which puts us back at home with Mrs. Yates, five kids, dad at work all day and
the MIL doing the best she could. And suppose that MIL told you she simply
couldn't care for those children more than she was caring for them already?
What do you do?
Maggie
tiny dancer
"Maggie" <maggi...@aol.comSPAMBLOC> wrote in message
When I was diagnosed with severe major depression I saw the therapist 3
times a week. When my insurance benefits ran out we were responsible for
the cost. Mr Yates made $80,000 a year, these people were not destitute.
Yes, we were raising three children, all of whom had asthma and major
medical bills themselves, but if one considers major depression as one would
consider any other illness do you stop treating it just because the
insurance benefits run out. My best friends husband had cancer, they had
many expenses/bills that weren't covered by insurance, that's the way it
goes sometimes with illnesses. They didn't stop the cancer treatments
because it cost them money. Most reputable therapist's offer a sliding
scale fee, especially for patients they already have in treatment. My
therapist adjusted his fee's. And I've heard the same from others in group
therapy.
I agree that the Yateses should have tried to convince the doctors (I
> doubt it would have been difficult) to prescribe/recommend some sort of
talking
> therapy for Andrea, if only so that there'd be another layer of
supervision
> over her (i.e., to cover their asses). But I also think the doctors
should
> probably have known even without the input of Mr. and Mrs. Yates that
Andrea
> needed a little more help than they were providing.
If Mrs Yates was only seeing a GP or psychiatrist for her medications I
doubt very much they took into account her mental state except as to how she
was tolerating the different meds. As I mentioned before, appointments
strictly for med checks are seldom longer than 15 to 20 minutes. All the
prescribing doc asks is "how you're doing" in a physical sense. It's the
psychologist who deals with the emotions. No psychologist no input. These
are things one learns working with the system. Mrs Yates made numerous
suicide attempts. It wasn't as if they had just begun to deal with the
mental health system. Mr Yates mentioned a notebook, med schedule, it was
up to him as her guardian/next of kin, to see that she received the proper
treatment. Yes they had a large family, yes he had a lot of things on his
plate, so to speak, but these are things couples do for eachother every day.
When my husband or one of my kids has something wrong with them it's up to
me to find out what to do for them, just as when I have needs they take care
of me. My friend who's husband had cancer had so much to do, so many things
to find out about, surgeries, medications, rehab centers, medical equipment
to purchase for the home etc., etc., etc., it's part of being married, "for
better or worse, in sickness and in health." When your spouse is sick your
focus should be on that until the situation is resolved to a workable
solution. Priorities must be set. Yes it's great to be a Brownie leader or
coach tee ball, but not when your husband or wife is desperately ill. Maybe
you've been fortunate enough that you've never dealt with serious illnesses,
but people do it all the time. There have been times when I've had to forgo
things that would've been nice to do for my kids because their dad was sick,
just as there've been times he's had to take care of me. Our kids
understood, grew up to be happy productive adults in spite of it. They all
attended higher education and are professionals in their careers. In spite
of the compromises that had to be made during their growing years.
Eventually all the medical bills got paid. That's the way life goes
sometimes.
>
> Which puts us back at home with Mrs. Yates, five kids, dad at work all day
and
> the MIL doing the best she could. And suppose that MIL told you she
simply
> couldn't care for those children more than she was caring for them
already?
> What do you do?
>
> Maggie
Then you put an ad in the paper advertising for someone to help out with the
kids, you join a church and seek help there, you ask other relatives to set
up a schedule to relieve one another, you certainly don't home school your
kids and coach tee ball. You set your priorities. Yes it's all hindsight,
but people who have been around those who are severely depressed/mentally
ill quickly become aware that this is a serious situation and should be
treated as such. If Mrs Yates had cancer, had to go to chemo, had to be
hospitalized numerous times, something would have to have been figured out.
That's my point, until we treat mental illness for what it is, a serious
illness, then situations like this will repeat themselves. Sometimes people
fall through the cracks, but this woman gave so many signals. Numerous
suicide attempts are not to be taken lightly. When you are so mentally ill
you are unable to seek treatment for yourself. You're hardly able to put
your socks on in the morning let alone figure out how to help yourself. I
know this sounds corny, but we did say, "in sickness and in health." That
woman was really sick.
tiny dancer
Alan Hope
>As for the messy house, my god--there were five small children
>there. Even if the MIL left it spotless, with every dish and glass clean at 5
>pm the previous day, if no one had cleaned/cleared the dinner and breakfast
>dishes (or even just the breakfast dishes) and put away the children's toys, it
>would have looked like a tornado hit it by 10 am the next day. It would be
>interesting to know exactly how unkempt it was when the policeman saw it, or
>what Andrea might have done to it that morning, but just because someone
>reported it was a mess (or whatever) that doesn't mean that the MIL and Rusty
>weren't doing something.
I may be swimming against the tide of everyone else here, but the
detail that stuck in my mind wasn't Russell's assumption that there
would be no clean glass for the cop (not a condemnation on his part, I
hasten to add: I have only two kids, I'm home all day, and I'd assume
the same thing) but the fact that Andrea pointed them to the china
cabinet and there *were* clean glasses.
There's a terrible poignancy to that whole exchange, don't you think?
In the depths of his despair, he focuses on a small domestic detail.
She, meanwhile, from the profound pit of her mental anguish, catches
what he says and puts him straight.
I swear to God, a fiction writer would kill for a detail like that.
That said, the fact is there were clean glasses, and she knew where
they were. She was sane enough to know that, though she'd just drowned
her five children. How can any of us get a handle on this situation
faced with those conflicting signals? I'm more convinced now than I've
ever been, that anyone who claims to have an insight into this
situation is talking through their hat. The only appropriate posture
here is one of open-jawed amazement. Not only do none of us have any
answers; we don't even know enough to ask an intelligent question.
--
AH
Luk
Alan Hope wrote:
> There's a terrible poignancy to that whole exchange, don't you think?
> In the depths of his despair, he focuses on a small domestic detail.
> She, meanwhile, from the profound pit of her mental anguish, catches
> what he says and puts him straight.
>
> I swear to God, a fiction writer would kill for a detail like that.
Absolutely.
> That said, the fact is there were clean glasses, and she knew where
> they were. She was sane enough to know that, though she'd just drowned
> her five children.
Don't think I'd put it quite that way. She knew where there
were clean glasses. But she still wasn't sane.
> How can any of us get a handle on this situation
> faced with those conflicting signals? I'm more convinced now than I've
> ever been, that anyone who claims to have an insight into this
> situation is talking through their hat. The only appropriate posture
> here is one of open-jawed amazement. Not only do none of us have any
> answers; we don't even know enough to ask an intelligent question.
Intelligent or not:
Has anyone offered a bit of praise for the mother in law
who was trying very hard to be helpful?
Does anyone wonder why this woman was expected to keep
doing that which produces babies?
Luk
sal
news:3B410F61...@mindspring.com:
<snip>
> Does anyone wonder why this woman was expected to keep
> doing that which produces babies?
>
> Luk
>
"Expected to keep doing that which produces babies?"
Sure, lots of discussion about that sex thing; ranging from those who
condemn the husband for using her as a "breeding machine" to those who feel
that depression and/or antidepressants eliminate the sex drive to those
who've speculated that sex may have been one of the only things that made
her feel better.
Nobody's put it quite like you though.
-Sal
debby
Debby S.<sarg...@infi.net>
mothra...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Maggie wrote:
>
> > martha said:
> > >Do you think Andrea Yates *wanted* to kill her children?
> >
> > ***Absolutely. She said in her confession she'd been thinking about it for
> > months. As long as she was living with them, she could have found a way.
>
> First, I should note that "thinking about" doing something horrible is
> often a symptom of serious mental illness. Sometimes these thoughts
> come unbidden and certainly unwelcome. I would suspect that her being
> prescribed Haldol might have had something to do with thoughts just like
> these.
>
> But taking what you say at face value:
> Do you think her plan all along was to drown them and then confess, or
> do you think she wanted to escape, to start over on her own or
> something? *Why* do you think she wanted to kill them?
>
> Martha
debby
to have them come over and see the house...... She must have felt very
isolated. Debby S.<sarg...@infi.net>
debby
the manic state from the change in medication? This often happens when you go
off of Halidol. It would explain why she took on so much more then she could
handle. When she was in the manic state she wanted to do all these things and
when she was depressed she wanted to kill herself. Being pregnant could make it
worse. Debby S.<sarg...@infi.net>
>