Was VT Mass Murderer Cho Taking Paxil Anti-Depressant?
gerry
taking medication for depression."
If Cho had been taking Paxil, that is big trouble for the drug's
manufacturer, GSK. GSK is already being sued for falsifying the
results of drug trials on teenagers prescribed Paxil. The 1/29/07 BBC
Panorama investigative show interviewed the mother of a teenage
daughter, the daughter committing suicide while taking Paxil. The
link below is to a website set up by the law firm suing GSK and
includes a summary of the Panorama show. This law firm stores its
Paxil files in a beachfront house in Malibu (what a waste of prime
real estate, but a good business tax writeoff).
One of Paxil's big selling points these days is that it helps people
overcome their shyness. If Cho was taking Paxil, Cho's parents will
be first in line to sue GSK for turning their son into a suicidal
monster.
If Cho was taking Paxil, the medical reporters at the networks will
have a field day with this information.
----
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/na/chi-070417vtech-shootings,1,4394695.story?coll=chi-news-hed
THE GUNMAN
Danger signs festered below aloof surface
By Aamer Madhani, E.A. Torriero and Rex W. Huppke
Chicago Tribune staff reporters
April 17, 2007, 11:30 PM CDT
BLACKSBURG, Va. -- On a sprawling campus of more than 25,000, in a
building of 895, he was one. A stoic face in the hallway. A silent
classmate. To some, just "a creep."
Rage gestated inside him, but he still was just one. Rarely noticed.
Insignificant.
Now they call him "the monster among us," and he will never be
forgotten. Now the warning signs line up just right, and students say,
"We knew it was him."
Cho Seung Hui, a 23-year-old Virginia Tech senior, was named Tuesday
as the gunman who, in a coldly calculated fashion, murdered more than
30 people then shot himself to death inside a stone-walled engineering
building, putting an end to the worst shooting rampage in U.S.
history.
An enigma already, Cho and his decision to kill and die became more
perplexing when investigators found these words scrawled in red ink on
one of his arms: "Ismail Ax." The meaning is, almost fittingly,
unclear.
"He was a loner," said Larry Hincker, a university spokesman. "We're
having difficulty finding information about him."
The murders happened in two locations, and police on Tuesday said
ballistic evidence showed the same gun was used in both shootings. Two
people were killed early Monday in a dorm room, then more than two
hours later, Cho opened fire on the second floor of an engineering
building on the opposite side of campus, killing 30 and himself.
This shattered southwestern Virginia university community came
together Tuesday in an afternoon memorial service and an evening vigil
to mourn the dead and search for ways to move on. Virginia Gov. Tim
Kaine announced that he would appoint a panel to look into officials'
response in the shootings.
On everyone's mind was the mystery behind the young man who had
suddenly brought such sorrow to the state.
Sources say Cho, who emigrated with his parents from South Korea at
age 8, left an invective-filled note in his room that railed against
"rich kids" and "deceitful charlatans" on campus. Described as silent
and standoffish, he had shown recent signs of violent, aberrant
behavior, according to an investigative source, including setting a
fire in a dorm room and allegedly stalking some women.
A search warrant for Cho's dorm room after the shootings stated that a
bomb threat against the engineering school buildings was found near
Cho's body, The New York Times reported. The warrant mentioned two
other bomb threat notes against the campus received over the past
three weeks.
Investigators believe Cho at some point had been taking medication for
depression.
Two guns in two months
He had purchased two weapons, a .22-caliber handgun bought in
Blacksburg pawn shop in February and a 9 mm Glock purchased in March
at a Roanoke firearms store. Investigators said the receipt for the
Glock was still in Cho's backpack, which was found amid the carnage of
the engineering building, Norris Hall.
School officials said Cho posted a deadly warning on a school online
forum: "im going to kill people at vtech."
Like Cho himself, it seems the warning was ignored.
In his dormitory, Harper Hall, he would brush by other residents, but
never locked eyes or said "Hi."
"He wasn't normal," said Timothy Johnson, a freshman in Harper Hall.
"He had a funny way about him."
One of Cho's roommates, Joseph Aust, said it seemed Cho had no
friends. His part of the room remained undecorated, and all he had
were clothes, books and his laptop computer.
"I would come into the room and he'd just kind of be staring at his
desk, just staring at nothing," Aust said. "I would pass it off like
he was just weird."
Cho was an English major. A classmate from a playwriting class this
semester recalled Cho penning violent plays filled with disturbing
imagery.
"His writing, the plays, were really morbid and grotesque," said
Stephanie Derry. "I remember one of them very well. It was about a son
who hated his stepfather. In the play the boy threw a chain saw
around, and hammers at him. But the play ended with the boy violently
suffocating the father with a Rice Krispy treat."
Professor Carolyn Rude, chairwoman of the university's English
department, told The Associated Press that Cho's writing was so
disturbing he had been referred to the university's counseling
service.
"Sometimes, in creative writing, people reveal things and you never
know if it's creative or if they're describing things, if they're
imagining things or just how real it might be," Rude said. "But we're
all alert to not ignore things like this."
She said she did not know when he was referred for counseling, or the
outcome.
Suburban youth
After arriving in the U.S. in 1992, Cho's family moved to Centreville,
Va., a suburb of Washington with a population of 50,000. His parents
reportedly worked as dry cleaners.
The Cho family lives on a town-house-lined cul-de-sac in the sort of
neighborhood that evokes the term "quiet suburbs." The quiet was
broken Tuesday when police and television trucks rolled in, but family
members were nowhere to be found.
It was here that Cho grew up, eventually graduating from Westfield
High School in nearby Chantilly in 2003. His sister graduated from
Princeton University.
Omar Syed, a friend of one of the victims, Reema Samaha, went to high
school with both Cho and Samaha. He remembered Cho as being extremely
quiet and withdrawn.
"He didn't talk or participate in discussions," Syed said. "He would
just nod when people spoke to him."
He said he doubted Cho and Samaha knew each other beyond a passing
acquaintance.
On Tuesday, police investigators in Fairfax County looked into whether
there was any connection between Cho and another Westfield High School
graduate who went on a deadly shooting rampage last year.
Michael Kennedy, armed with an AK-47, fired more than 70 rounds in the
parking lot of the Sully District police station on May 8, killing
Detective Vicky Armel and Master Police Officer Michael Garbarino.
Kennedy, 18, was shot to death by police.
Though Cho and Kennedy lived in the same town and graduated from the
same high school, Officer Courtney Thibault of the Fairfax County
Police Department said investigators found no connection between the
two young men. "It's just a horrible coincidence," she said. "It's
hard to believe."
Students outside Cho's dorm on Tuesday recalled the previous morning,
when police swarmed Harper Hall, flashing Cho's picture, asking
questions, combing through his room.
"He was one of us," said Johnson, the freshman. "He could have come
after all of us. It's scary to think about that. It gives me chills."
Aamer Madhani and E.A. Torriero reported from Blacksburg; Rex W.
Huppke reported from Chicago; Tribune national correspondent Jim
Tankersley contributed from Centreville; and Tribune news services
contri
johns
and nobody paid the slightest attention. Any trained Counselor
would have known the potential for this. One of the stupidest debates
in psych class I ever heard is how Counselors are not allowed to
profile these individuals as dangerous. And yet it is common
knowledge that they most certainly are. His symptoms fit more
closely with Paranoid Schitzophrenia than depression. His
"planning" .. or selecting a target to blame for his paranoid
symptoms ... is typical of this disorder. I have no idea what
Paxil could have done to him in this state. I've known several
people like this. One of them here, use to print off articles
from web sites about Martians sending rays to his brain to
control him. He would carefully place a copy of the article
on each students desk, every single day. I warned everybody
I could find that I had a nut in my lab, and nobody paid the
slightest attention, even when he started becoming violent
and abusive to females in the lab. The only thing that got
him out was concern about all the paper he was wasting
.... and they called the cops on him. After he left here, I
heard that students at another university had killed him
because he was coming into their lab naked. He was one
of about 5 mental patients just hanging out during the
day, because they had no other place to go.
johns
Luk
"johns" <john...@moscow.com> wrote in message
news:1176882164....@b58g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> The guy was becoming psychotic. Warning signs were everywhere,
> and nobody paid the slightest attention. Any trained Counselor
> would have known the potential for this.
One of his professors was concerned about the possibility
Cho would commit suicide.
But at what point should the professor or anyone else have
taken action. What action could they have taken if the boy
was only acting withdrawn and seemed peculiar?
Luk
Cliff and Linda Griffith
news:oaCdnb7Mm9Qrk7vb...@comcast.com...
article somewhere (not the one below), a professor said she kept asking Cho
about counseling so often that he said he was undergoing it, perhaps, she
thought, just to get her to stop asking.
I wonder if any faculty member ever spoke or wrote to Cho's parents,
expressing concern and asking for their help. Then again, this is college,
there are tens of thousands of students there, and they're adults.
Linda
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18161472/site/newsweek/
The English Department faculty grew sufficiently concerned about Cho's
writing and antisocial behavior that they contacted university counselors
and school police. (One faculty member, who requested anonymity because the
university has asked professors not to talk to the press about the
shootings, says he believes Blacksburg's police department was also
contacted. When asked whether school administrators or faculty had ever
talked to the force about Cho, Lt. Bruce Bradbery, a spokesman for the
Blacksburg force, said "not that I'm aware of.") <snip>
The professor reported his concerns to administrators in the English
department, he says. He wasn't the first: Cho had been a topic of discussion
among the faculty for some time. "He was referred by the English department
to counselors," says the professor. And "according to the director of the
program, the police were also notified ... It was obvious that he was
troubled." (A Virginia Tech spokesperson said that the university and its
police department wouldn't comment outside of official news conferences.)
johns
as "dangerous" because it violates their civil rights.
As a matter of fact, THAT has closed Mental
Institutions. But you can get them for stealing
paper !!!!
johns
Luk
"Cliff and Linda Griffith" wrote:
> It sounds to me as if his professors did all they could. In an MSNBC or
> CNN
> article somewhere (not the one below), a professor said she kept asking
> Cho
> about counseling so often that he said he was undergoing it, perhaps, she
> thought, just to get her to stop asking.
>
> I wonder if any faculty member ever spoke or wrote to Cho's parents,
> expressing concern and asking for their help. Then again, this is
> college,
> there are tens of thousands of students there, and they're adults.
>
> Linda
Hi Linda -
There has been a lot of conversation today on TV about
Cho and some stalking incidents that came up in 2005. Also one
of the instructors refused to include him any more in her classes.
because she was afraid. That's what led to his working one on
one with a different professor. Also in 2005 there was an effort
by someone to get him to treatment in an institution of some
sort.
I'm disturbed that Cho's roommates were unaware of his
history. It's being said that the school was prevented by law
from alerting anyone about his past.
I hope these things will be corrected.
Luk
johns
> history. It's being said that the school was prevented by law
> from alerting anyone about his past.
>
> I hope these things will be corrected.
>
> Luk
They pretty accurately described his behavior in
an interview.
Symptoms of paranoid schizophrenia:
1. Socially withdrawn .. a loner.
2. Very limited speech .. flattening of emotions.
3. Extremely suspicious .. paranoid feelings.
4. Onset, late teens, early 20s.
5. Emotionally unresponsive when questioned.
6. Inappropriate expression of terrifying images.
7. Belief that outside forces are controlling them.
8. Certain drugs can make the symptoms much worse.
9. Violent under certain conditions.
10. Mis-interpretation of social experiences.
11. Delusions of persecution by others.
12. Violent outbursts when persecution by
others generates a sense of need for self
defense. People using cell phones are calling
the FBI to report on them.
13. Excessive mobility with no purpose .. like
riding a bicycle all night.
johns
Cliff and Linda Griffith
> > I'm disturbed that Cho's roommates were unaware of his
> > history. It's being said that the school was prevented by law
> > from alerting anyone about his past.
> >
> > I hope these things will be corrected.
> >
> > Luk
>
> They pretty accurately described his behavior in
> an interview.
>
> Symptoms of paranoid schizophrenia:
>
> 1. Socially withdrawn .. a loner.
> johns
I read yesterday or today that Cho didn't participate in class discussions;
that his only contributions were by the written word. I wonder now how he
made it through 3 1/2 years of college behaving that way, apparently getting
passing grades. Granted, I taught high school students; but if class
participation were a requirement, I'd think his failure to comply would be
reflected in his grades.
I'm still wondering if teachers and professors ever contacted Cho's parents;
if he had been so odd, angry, and reclusive in high school that teachers
might have held parent-teacher conferences to address the problem.
Have his parents gone into seclusion? I feel sorry for them, as well. From
what I've *heard*, Asian students are often more conscientious than others,
due to family honor. Cho may have been a good student academically, but he
certainly dishonored his family. I bet a murderer's family from *any*
culture would feel terrible. (On second thought, though, I never got that
feeling about the Columbine shooters' parents.)
Linda
Grk
Also hallucinations, especially auditory hallucinations.
johns
> that his only contributions were by the written word. I wonder now how he
> made it through 3 1/2 years of college behaving that way,
PS onset is sudden and degenerative. He was probably OK
until it began ... late teens early 20s. I actually have a female
friend who has PS. She is an excellent skater, and on the
ice, she is quiet normal. She stays on meds with the help
of her family. Her early upbringing is still intact with help
from the meds. Only her development in later life was
affected ... in the extreme.
> passing grades. Granted, I taught high school students; but if
class
> participation were a requirement, I'd think his failure to comply would be
> reflected in his grades.
Many college professors do not allow class participation.
They prefer to stand there and present the topic without
interruption. I don't recall any of my professors who really
liked questions from the class.
> I'm still wondering if teachers and professors ever contacted Cho's parents;
> if he had been so odd, angry, and reclusive in high school that teachers
> might have held parent-teacher conferences to address the problem.
Or, PS had not begun with him at that age.
> Have his parents gone into seclusion? I feel sorry for them, as well. From
> what I've *heard*, Asian students are often more conscientious than others,
> due to family honor.
I've seen that too. I imagine they are frightened out of their
minds. Also, parents of people with PS, are generally the
first targets of violence, and it is well known that they are
often killed by their mentally ill child.
johns
johns
Yep, but nothing was reported about that. The closest thing
to it, was Cho telling his roommate that he had an imaginary
girlfriend named "Jelly". I can imagine that she might have
been talking to him in "voices". Symptom list says those
voices tend to be very critical and rejecting. Possibly that is
the motive for killing his first ( female ) victim ?????
johns
Luk
"Cliff and Linda Griffith" <grif...@charter.net> wrote in message
> I read yesterday or today that Cho didn't participate in class
> discussions;
> that his only contributions were by the written word. I wonder now how he
> made it through 3 1/2 years of college behaving that way, apparently
> getting
> passing grades. Granted, I taught high school students; but if class
> participation were a requirement, I'd think his failure to comply would be
> reflected in his grades.
Seems to me, verbal participation in class is generally
a voluntary thing in college.
> I'm still wondering if teachers and professors ever contacted Cho's
> parents;
> if he had been so odd, angry, and reclusive in high school that teachers
> might have held parent-teacher conferences to address the problem.
One of Cho's roommates commented that Cho's parents were
present back when the students were moving into the dorm. The
reporter asked whether the roommate talked with Cho's parents.
The roommate then indicated that the parents had not been
speaking English. he indicated he wasn't sure whether they
could.
> Have his parents gone into seclusion?
Looks that way.
Luk
Luk
>
> 1. Socially withdrawn .. a loner.
> 2. Very limited speech .. flattening of emotions.
> 3. Extremely suspicious .. paranoid feelings.
> 4. Onset, late teens, early 20s.
> 5. Emotionally unresponsive when questioned.
> 6. Inappropriate expression of terrifying images.
> 7. Belief that outside forces are controlling them.
> 8. Certain drugs can make the symptoms much worse.
> 9. Violent under certain conditions.
> 10. Mis-interpretation of social experiences.
> 11. Delusions of persecution by others.
> 12. Violent outbursts when persecution by
> others generates a sense of need for self
> defense. People using cell phones are calling
> the FBI to report on them.
> 13. Excessive mobility with no purpose .. like
> riding a bicycle all night.
He certainly exhibits #1 and #2.
Luk
Douglas Berry
<john...@moscow.com> who stoppeth one in alt.conspiracy
>The guy was becoming psychotic. Warning signs were everywhere,
>and nobody paid the slightest attention. Any trained Counselor
>would have known the potential for this.
Actually many people noticed, and took as much action as they were
allowed to take. Alas being sullen and scary is not yet grounds for
involuntary commitment.
What frosts me is he spent time in a pysch ward. But since it was a
voluntary commitment, it wasn't on his record. Had it been on his
record, he never would have been able to buy the guns legally.
--
Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
"Where is the prince who can afford so to cover
his country with troops for its defense, as that
ten thousand men descending from the clouds, might
not,in many places, do an infinite deal of mischief
before a force could be brought together to repel
them?" - BENJAMIN FRANKLIN-1784
Offsho...@nospam.com
Seriously, people always go through the same rituals when these mass
murders happen, wringing their hands, bullshitting themselves about
mental illness and what could have been done to stop the tragedy. It's
pointless, and it's become tiresome to watch.
1. Mental illness and criminal behavior are not synonymous, nor
frankly are they that closely linked. There are many, many mentally
ill people who are not committing crimes (and many criminal people who
are not mentally ill), and you would be wise not to inflict any more
distress on the mentally ill than what they're already suffering.
2. There's nothing that can be done. These things have happened since
time immemorial. Mass murder is a fact of life just like terrorism. A
war on terrorism is a war that will never be won, because terrorism
has more to do with individual psychology than with social issues and
thus there have always been terrorists. There were terrorists in
ancient Greece and ancient Rome. They are a fact of life. You can be
vigilant about them but you can't eradicate them like polio. Same
with mass murderers.
3. Most Americans do not understand psychiatry and concepts of mental
illness, so it's pointless for them to blather about mental illness. I
might as well walk into a surgery ward and tell the doctor where to
make the incisions. I wouldn't be good because I know nothing about
surgery. Mental illnesses, personality disorders, criminal behaviors
are all distinct things, and it is not going to accomplish anything
for people who do not understand something to put themselves in charge
of it.
4. Americans desperately need to learn something about mental illness
and personality disorders. They are not one and the same, and no, one
is not a subset of the other. Americans just endlessly wallow in
ignorance, pretending they know when they do not know. Why not pick
up a book or at least google? What's the point of blah-blah-blahing
about something you know nothing about?
It's sad. It's a tragedy. Thirty-three people lost their lives. But
172 people lost their lives today in Baghdad. (Of course, most of
them are not young, white, normal and upscale, hence fewer overt
displays of handwringing). Over a hundred have lost their lives in
Los Angeles this year (of course, most of them not young, white,
normal and upscale). More than 18 thousand die every year from
homicide (most of them not... ), 31 thousand from suicide (most of
them not...) More than 215 thousand lost their lives a few years ago
due to improper health care (a large percentage of them were not ...).
Turn on your brains, Americans.
Nancy Rudins
Hi Luk,
It's good to see you back here in at-c.
I believe the school was prevented from revealing his history to
his roommates because of the Family Privacy Act. If the student
is no longer a minor, even his parents can't find out without his
permission. I don't see any possibility of this act being over-
turned, not even because of this incident.
If the roommates didn't know him well--he seems to have always
been quiet and non-sociable--they probably didn't know him well
enough to pick up on the warning signs of impending paranoid
schizophrenia. It's a completely tragic situation all around,
and I don't see how things could have been done differently
to avoid this bloodshed.
Kind regards,
Nancy
--
"Your head so much concerned with outer, mine with inner, weather."
(Frost)
nru...@ncsa.uiuc.edu
http://ncsa.uiuc.edu/People/nrudins/
USA1st
> "Cliff and Linda Griffith" <griff...@charter.net> wrote in message
Even though the guy did such an horrific crime, his parents still lost
a child. And they are having to deal with all the other entanglement
of emotions linked to the fact that their son killed all these
people. I imagine they are emotional wrecks and are also in
mourning.
Luk
<Offsho...@nospam.com>
> 1. Mental illness and criminal behavior are not synonymous, nor
> frankly are they that closely linked. There are many, many mentally
> ill people who are not committing crimes (and many criminal people who
> are not mentally ill), and you would be wise not to inflict any more
> distress on the mentally ill than what they're already suffering.
Are you taking personally an ongoing discussion that's actually
pretty constructive?
> 2. There's nothing that can be done. These things have happened since
> time immemorial. Mass murder is a fact of life just like terrorism. A
> war on terrorism is a war that will never be won, because terrorism
> has more to do with individual psychology than with social issues and
> thus there have always been terrorists. There were terrorists in
> ancient Greece and ancient Rome. They are a fact of life. You can be
> vigilant about them but you can't eradicate them like polio. Same
> with mass murderers.
Keep in mind the many parents out there who are genuinely
concerned about campus security and what's going to happen to
analyze and review safety protocols that have and haven't worked
in the past.
> It's sad. It's a tragedy. Thirty-three people lost their lives. But
> 172 people lost their lives today in Baghdad. (Of course, most of
> them are not young, white, normal and upscale, hence fewer overt
> displays of handwringing). Over a hundred have lost their lives in
> Los Angeles this year (of course, most of them not young, white,
> normal and upscale). More than 18 thousand die every year from
> homicide (most of them not... ), 31 thousand from suicide (most of
> them not...) More than 215 thousand lost their lives a few years ago
> due to improper health care (a large percentage of them were not ...).
> Turn on your brains, Americans.
What would our lives today be like if society were in the habit
of saying "There's nothing that can be done/"
Luk
Rudy Canoza
> The guy was becoming psychotic. Warning signs were everywhere,
> and nobody paid the slightest attention.
That is untrue. Attention was paid. The professors
and administrators of the English department looked
hard at him, and in their judgment, he didn't represent
a threat. He was weird to the point of being
frightening, but he didn't appear to represent a threat.
I don't think we as Americans want the sort of state
where you can be involuntarily committed to a mental
institution just for being weird. That kind of regime
obviously has huge potential for abuse.
> Any trained Counselor
> would have known the potential for this.
Perhaps. But how to get Cho or others like him before
such a Counselor [sic] while maintaining a society that
legitimately respects civil liberties? *Any*
suggestion you have for increasing the power of the
state to seize people involuntarily for
psychological/psychiatric examination will raise
strenuous objections from civil libertarians, and many
of the objections will be fully justified.
You're asking for some kind of perfect world that is
unachievable.
Rudy Canoza
Exactly. Hindsight is wonderful, isn't it? Knowing
what happened, this guy should have been locked up.
But people who *did* scrutinize him, within the limits
that the law allows, concluded that he didn't represent
a threat that would justify doing so. They were wrong,
but they could only go on the evidence they had.
It may be possible to increase the power of the state
to seize, hold and conduct psychiatric examinations of
people in such a way that it doesn't start us down the
slippery slope toward a Soviet-style regime in which
politically dangerous people are locked up in
hospitals-cum-prisons, but anyone who values liberty is
morally correct to be highly skeptical of any such move.
Rudy Canoza
> On 18 Apr 2007 00:42:44 -0700 there was an Ancient johns
> <john...@moscow.com> who stoppeth one in alt.conspiracy
>
>> The guy was becoming psychotic. Warning signs were everywhere,
>> and nobody paid the slightest attention. Any trained Counselor
>> would have known the potential for this.
>
> Actually many people noticed, and took as much action as they were
> allowed to take. Alas being sullen and scary is not yet grounds for
> involuntary commitment.
>
> What frosts me is he spent time in a pysch ward. But since it was a
> voluntary commitment, it wasn't on his record. Had it been on his
> record, he never would have been able to buy the guns legally.
No, apparently it was involuntary, and people are
wondering just why that wasn't on his record.
Luk
> It's good to see you back here in at-c.
Thanks, Nancy.
> I believe the school was prevented from revealing his history to
> his roommates because of the Family Privacy Act. If the student
> is no longer a minor, even his parents can't find out without his
> permission. I don't see any possibility of this act being over-
> turned, not even because of this incident.
I'll try to educate myself on that subject.
> If the roommates didn't know him well--he seems to have always
> been quiet and non-sociable--they probably didn't know him well
> enough to pick up on the warning signs of impending paranoid
> schizophrenia. It's a completely tragic situation all around,
> and I don't see how things could have been done differently
> to avoid this bloodshed.
What keeps coming back to me is this: If the roommates had
known or discovered somewhere along the line that Cho had
a serious history, they would probably have been more
alert. They might have taken a peek at Cho's computer or might
have looked into curious packages in the dorm room. What if
they had come upon the guns or a receipt for a gun? The
campus is supposed to be a gun free zone. It's easy to imagine
that things could have turned out differently.
I wouldn't want my son or daughter to be placed with a roommate
who had a questionable past - and not told about it. I hate to
criticize, but then how else do improvements come about?
Luk
johns
Actually, I'm not a statistics major. I prefer the role of
protector of the weak and innocent. One of those students
thought quickly under fire and pushed a table against
the door and saved the lives of his classmates. I'm
proud to know about him. My sense of my own manhood
has grown in response to the actions of this one
individual. The Holocaust survivor who blocked the
door to his class, and was shot and killed saving
his students .... He stood up. That courage is who we
are.
johns
Rudy Canoza
> Hey, I take Paxil. I guess that's faint praise ;)
>
> Seriously, people always go through the same rituals when these mass
> murders happen, wringing their hands, bullshitting themselves about
> mental illness and what could have been done to stop the tragedy. It's
> pointless, and it's become tiresome to watch.
>
> 1. Mental illness and criminal behavior are not synonymous, nor
> frankly are they that closely linked. There are many, many mentally
> ill people who are not committing crimes
True enough...
> (and many criminal people who
> are not mentally ill),
I'm not so sure of that. No matter how much the moral
relativists might object, there *is* such a thing as a
normal sense of right and wrong, and the vast majority
of people abide by it in all or most of their public
behavior. Criminals by definition do not. That fact
per se could be interpreted as evidence of mental
illness. The guy who holds up a liquor store may not
be babbling to himself as he plans and carries out the
robbery, but he *knows* that what he is doing is
morally and legally wrong, yet he does it anyway.
That's mental illness.
> and you would be wise not to inflict any more
> distress on the mentally ill than what they're already suffering.
No one is trying to inflict distress on them. That may
be a byproduct of the increased scrutiny they're going
to get now, but it is not anyone's goal.
You're painting with too broad a brush. It's
particular kinds of mental illness that will receive,
rightfully, the additional consideration.
>
> 2. There's nothing that can be done.
That's probably wrong.
> These things have happened since
> time immemorial.
argumentum ad antiquitatem. Lots of things have
happened that long, but that's no reason not to try to
change them.
> Mass murder is a fact of life just like terrorism.
Not everywhere and not with a universal frequency.
Polio and smallpox used to be "facts of life", and both
have been all but eradicated. If there are reasonable
steps that can be taken against mass murder and
terrorism, we can and ought to take them.
> A war on terrorism is a war that will never be won, because terrorism
> has more to do with individual psychology than with social issues and
> thus there have always been terrorists.
No, that's not why. It's because terrorism is a tactic
employed by relatively powerless people to attain a
goal. You might win a war against some particular
terrorISTS, but never against terrorISM. The very idea
that such a "war" against a tactic could be waged and
won is ludicrous, and Bush should be impeached merely
for having sold that bullshit to the American public.
Similarly, we can't really wage and win a war against
"mass murder", but we can and should take steps to
prevent occurrences of it, knowing full well that we'll
never get the rate to zero.
> There were terrorists in
> ancient Greece and ancient Rome. They are a fact of life. You can be
> vigilant about them but you can't eradicate them like polio. Same
> with mass murderers.
>
> 3. Most Americans do not understand psychiatry and concepts of mental
> illness, so it's pointless for them to blather about mental illness. I
> might as well walk into a surgery ward and tell the doctor where to
> make the incisions. I wouldn't be good because I know nothing about
> surgery. Mental illnesses, personality disorders, criminal behaviors
> are all distinct things, and it is not going to accomplish anything
> for people who do not understand something to put themselves in charge
> of it.
Horribly bad analogy. The public may not know the
details of how mental illness ought to be treated, but
certainly the public have a say in discussing the
ethics of *when* it should be aggressively and
proactively addressed. A better analogy would be with
some controversial procedure like involuntary
sterilization. The lay public wouldn't get involved in
telling the surgeon where to cut and snip, but we
certainly have something to say about whether and when
we allow involuntary sterilization to take place at all.
> 4. Americans desperately need to learn something about mental illness
> and personality disorders. They are not one and the same, and no, one
> is not a subset of the other. Americans just endlessly wallow in
> ignorance, pretending they know when they do not know. Why not pick
> up a book or at least google? What's the point of blah-blah-blahing
> about something you know nothing about?
Well, maybe this will cause some people to take a
harder look at it. I'm always skeptical of someone
telling me what I "ought" to be more interested in,
however.
> It's sad. It's a tragedy. Thirty-three people lost their lives.
It's only sad and tragic, for most of us, for the first
32. It's a bit of a shame that the shooter couldn't be
captured alive and more insight obtained from the
lengthy involuntary commitment he would have undergone,
but in terms of the moral weight of the loss of his
life, it's zero.
> But 172 people lost their lives today in Baghdad. (Of course, most of
> them are not young, white, normal and upscale, hence fewer overt
> displays of handwringing). Over a hundred have lost their lives in
> Los Angeles this year (of course, most of them not young, white,
> normal and upscale). [snip remaining bigoted bullshit]
It has nothing to do with age, race or wealth, moron.
Things that happen closer to "home" are always felt
more keenly than more remote events. That's just...a
fact of life.
Cliff and Linda Griffith
> I wouldn't want my son or daughter to be placed with a roommate
> who had a questionable past - and not told about it. I hate to
> criticize, but then how else do improvements come about?
>
> Luk
>
roommates filled out a form for housing. Of course, the questions only had
to do with likes and dislikes, interests, habits, etc., since the goal was
to put students together who would be likely to get along well.
I wonder if Virginia Tech requires such forms, and what Cho might have
written on his. Of course, people can describe themselves honestly or with
pure fiction. Still, if Cho had written that the world was against him and
that he wanted to kill... kill... kill, I bet he'd have gotten a second look
back then. He did seem interested in "creative writing".
I simply *assumed* that my daughter was safe from her roommates; and as it
turned out, she roomed with "normal" girls. Like you, I wouldn't want my
child to be placed with a person with a questionable past.
Linda
Chocolic
I don't think it's so much saying that "there's nothing that can be
done", but that this isn't the worst thing that's happened, or will
happen or has happened. I still haven't gotten over the Amish school
shooting.
FOX, MSNBC, CNN; et al, hashing and rehashing and blaming, and the
should haves, would haves and could haves, and the what ifs, yet they
seem to perpetuate the problem by giving the badly wanted publicity to
the bastard and any future bastards, not seeming to care about
hurting the families in their quest. In their eternal fight for
ratings they often turn the families of the criminal and the families
of the victims into victims themselves. Gr-r-r-r Good example, I
mean huge example of that is they way they butchered poor Shawn
Hornback in the press (pretty much like raping him over and over
again).. When tragedies like this happen, the news reporters have to
use the adjectives "worst school shooting ever" or "worst massacre
ever" or "worst serial killer in North America", or whatever, giving
the future psychological misfit a basis to go on.
I'll climb off my venting ladder for a while. lol
Chocolic <Hi Luke, glad to have you back>
Jafo
>That is untrue. Attention was paid. The professors
>and administrators of the English department looked
>hard at him, and in their judgment, he didn't represent
>a threat. He was weird to the point of being
>frightening, but he didn't appear to represent a threat.
He was weird to the point that 90% of the students stopped showing
up for one class because they were uncomfortable with him and because
he interfered with their learning process. If they - or their parents
- had demanded the tuition be refunded, the University damned well
would have taken action.
--
Jafo
Jafo
>Thirty-three people lost their lives.
Thirty-two people and one murderer.
Don't lump the one in with the others.
--
Jafo
Rudy Canoza
It certainly is the worst thing that has happened to
the families of the 32 dead people.
It is a horror. Any attempt to minimize the import of
it is morally reprehensible.
> I still haven't gotten over the Amish school
> shooting.
>
> FOX, MSNBC, CNN; et al, hashing and rehashing and blaming, and the
> should haves, would haves and could haves, and the what ifs, yet they
> seem to perpetuate the problem by giving the badly wanted publicity to
> the bastard and any future bastards, not seeming to care about
> hurting the families in their quest.
The fact of this sick fuck having written his
"manifesto" and filmed his 27 videos is newsworthy.
> In their eternal fight for
> ratings they often turn the families of the criminal and the families
> of the victims into victims themselves. Gr-r-r-r
Good old American irrational knee-jerk hatred of the
press - glad to see some things never change.
Rudy Canoza
> As viewed from alt.california, Rudy Canoza wrote:
>
>> That is untrue. Attention was paid. The professors
>> and administrators of the English department looked
>> hard at him, and in their judgment, he didn't represent
>> a threat. He was weird to the point of being
>> frightening, but he didn't appear to represent a threat.
>
> He was weird to the point that 90% of the students stopped showing
> up for one class
90%? I had heard that in at least one class, some
students stopped coming to class expressly because of
Cho, but I hadn't heard it was that high.
> because they were uncomfortable with him and because
> he interfered with their learning process. If they - or their parents
> - had demanded the tuition be refunded, the University damned well
> would have taken action.
Again: it is difficult to take action against someone
for being weird. I'm not saying that nothing more
could have been done, but there are a lot of
institutional and legal impediments to taking action.
Rudy Canoza
Exactly.
I'm appalled at how many times since Monday I have seen
this very lumping-together. It is, in and of itself,
morally revolting. Cho's parents may very well be
distraught over his death, but no one else is or ought
to be.
Luk
> Luk wrote:
>> But at what point should the professor or anyone else have
>> taken action. What action could they have taken if the boy
>> was only acting withdrawn and seemed peculiar?
"Rudy Canoza" wrote:
> Exactly. Hindsight is wonderful, isn't it? Knowing what happened, this
> guy should have been locked up. But people who *did* scrutinize him,
> within the limits that the law allows, concluded that he didn't represent
> a threat that would justify doing so. They were wrong, but they could
> only go on the evidence they had.
>
> It may be possible to increase the power of the state to seize, hold and
> conduct psychiatric examinations of people in such a way that it doesn't
> start us down the slippery slope toward a Soviet-style regime in which
> politically dangerous people are locked up in hospitals-cum-prisons, but
> anyone who values liberty is morally correct to be highly skeptical of any
> such move.
Well, since I wrote that particular post, a lot more info has
come out about Cho's history. I'm not sure now that
in view of half a dozen incidents during the past two years,
everything was handled as it should have been.
For one thing, I'm disturbed that Cho's roommates
were never told about the University's experiences with Cho.
Luk
Chocolic
"Rudy Canoza" <pi...@thedismalscience.net> wrote in message
news:6rNVh.1820$Ut6...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Of course dipwad, it's the worst thing that has happened to any family
that has lost a loved one, whether it was in Bagdad or a car accident
or a school shooting.
Chocolic
Rudy Canoza
What could the university have told them without violating privacy
laws, and possibly opening themselves to a defamation lawsuit in the
event he never did anything? This is the whole problem here.
I surmise that there may have been enough evidence for the university
again to have sought an involuntary commitment of a longer duration.
If that commitment had determined that he was a serious menace, they
could then - possibly - have expelled him. I say "possibly", because
who knows what the Americans with Disabilities Act implications would
have been.
Jafo
Hit the university in the pocketbook and they'll find a way.
--
Jafo
Luk
>> of saying "There's nothing that can be done/"
>>
>> Luk
Chocolic wrote:
> I don't think it's so much saying that "there's nothing that can be done",
> but that this isn't the worst thing that's happened, or will happen or has
> happened.
My interest is in figuring out what measures might help to
avoid future school shootings. We can't uninvent gun powder.
So where do we go from here?
It's hard to deny that school shootings have become a threat
kids face today. Our young people must go to schools.
How can we not exert the energy it takes to analyze every
aspect of what happened at Va. Tech? And all the other
school shootings.
> When tragedies like this happen, the news reporters have to use the
> adjectives "worst school shooting ever" or "worst massacre ever" or "worst
> serial killer in North America", or whatever, giving the future
> psychological misfit a basis to go on.
I'm not generally one to defend the press. But IMO it wouldn't
make sense to downplay the dangers school kids actually face
today.
<Hi Luke, glad to have you back>
You're very kind. I feel warmly welcomed.
Luk
Luk
Linda wrote:
>>
> Back in the 90s when my daughter went off to college, she and her
> potential
> roommates filled out a form for housing. Of course, the questions only
> had
> to do with likes and dislikes, interests, habits, etc., since the goal was
> to put students together who would be likely to get along well.
>
> I wonder if Virginia Tech requires such forms, and what Cho might have
> written on his. Of course, people can describe themselves honestly or
> with
> pure fiction. Still, if Cho had written that the world was against him
> and
> that he wanted to kill... kill... kill, I bet he'd have gotten a second
> look
> back then.
That's an interesting question. There may be ways
we haven't thought of to spot people like Cho. And
to give authorities a reason and excuse for examining
some students more thoroughly.
> I simply *assumed* that my daughter was safe from her roommates; and as it
> turned out, she roomed with "normal" girls. Like you, I wouldn't want my
> child to be placed with a person with a questionable past.
I was placed with a roommate I didn't know when I
went off to college. We turned out to be great friends
and we still are.
But this episode gives one pause.
Luk
Nancy Rudins
Luk wrote:
> What keeps coming back to me is this: If the roommates had
> known or discovered somewhere along the line that Cho had
> a serious history, they would probably have been more
> alert. They might have taken a peek at Cho's computer or might
> have looked into curious packages in the dorm room. What if
> they had come upon the guns or a receipt for a gun? The
> campus is supposed to be a gun free zone. It's easy to imagine
> that things could have turned out differently.
>
> I wouldn't want my son or daughter to be placed with a roommate
> who had a questionable past - and not told about it. I hate to
> criticize, but then how else do improvements come about?
>
> Luk
>
>
Unfortunately, in this instance, the school is not allowed to
reveal anything except "directory" information; any information
someone could find by using the school's directory: name, address,
phone (if not withheld from directory information by the student),
undergraduate or graduate level, and college or department in which
the student is enrolled.
It's too bad that no one seemed to know Mr. Cho at all. I think
one of the professors described him as one who sucks the life out
of any room he enters. I've never come across such a person, so
I don't know if I'd be too afraid to make an effort to say hello
or strike up a conversation with that kind of person. Perhaps that
is how his roommates and classmates reacted to him.
As the law stands, though, there really wasn't anything the school
could have done to warn his roommates or any other student, for
that matter. If they had taken it upon themselves to peek at his
computer, they might have been taking a greater risk. What if
Cho caught them?
Luk
>> I wouldn't want my son or daughter to be placed with a roommate
>> who had a questionable past - and not told about it. I hate to
>> criticize, but then how else do improvements come about?
>>
>> Luk
"Nancy Rudins" wrote:
> Unfortunately, in this instance, the school is not allowed to
> reveal anything except "directory" information; any information
> someone could find by using the school's directory: name, address,
> phone (if not withheld from directory information by the student),
> undergraduate or graduate level, and college or department in which
> the student is enrolled.
>
> It's too bad that no one seemed to know Mr. Cho at all. I think
> one of the professors described him as one who sucks the life out
> of any room he enters. I've never come across such a person, so
> I don't know if I'd be too afraid to make an effort to say hello
> or strike up a conversation with that kind of person. Perhaps that
> is how his roommates and classmates reacted to him.
>
> As the law stands, though, there really wasn't anything the school
> could have done to warn his roommates or any other student, for
> that matter. If they had taken it upon themselves to peek at his
> computer, they might have been taking a greater risk. What if
> Cho caught them?
All things considered, Cho must have been extremely careful to hide
incriminating paraphernalia and info.
It seems likely that Cho's history would have been rumored
around campus and that his last roommates would have gotten
a whiff of it.
I've now looked up the Privacy law you refer to above. The
info was instructive.
I still think something has to change. There will surely be
multiple lawsuits resulting from the Cho killings. Security on
campuses will tighten. Parents will be making demands.
Luk