More IDW News . . .
jimso...@gmail.com
upcoming Transformers line.
http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=880848
In it several new aspects are revealed. In this version Transformers
didn't come to Earth by accident. Much of the early story will be from
the POV of human characters, as the Transformer action will be
'sub-radar.' There won't be new Cybertronian characters, but there
will be 'new looks.'
I have mixed feelings about all of this. Certainly, it's not the
direction I would have chosen to take the story. It seems to me that
one would want Transformers to take the center stage in a Transformers
book, and that if you're going to do G1 transformers that they should
look like the classic G1 transformers.
That said, if IDW is going to take this direction, I'm glad Furman is
at the helm. And if the Transformers being 'sub-radar' is only for
their introductory arc, that might not be problematic. As for 'new
looks,' it's hard to know exactly what he means by that. It could be a
complete revamping of characters as was done in the TF/GI Joe
crossovers . . . or it could be just some artistic changes. I'm
slightly more apprehensive now, but I'll keep an open mind and look
forward to having new TF stories.
JimS
Mark Brown
news:1117261752.3...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Newsarama interviewed Simon Furman about his involvement with the
> upcoming Transformers line.
> http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=880848
>
> In it several new aspects are revealed. In this version Transformers
> didn't come to Earth by accident. Much of the early story will be from
> the POV of human characters, as the Transformer action will be
> 'sub-radar.' There won't be new Cybertronian characters, but there
> will be 'new looks.'
>
> I have mixed feelings about all of this. Certainly, it's not the
> direction I would have chosen to take the story. It seems to me that
> one would want Transformers to take the center stage in a Transformers
> book, and that if you're going to do G1 transformers that they should
> look like the classic G1 transformers.
Actually, I'm very intrigued by all of this, and very much looking forward
to the unusual lengths I'll have to go to to get the comics (since by the
time they come out I'll likely be back in Cornwall, which has no comic
store. Or book store. Or contact with the outside world).
I don't get what everyone's problem is with humans. Pretty much every other
story on Earth is focussed on humans. I'm used to 'em by now. Besides, they
make a logical place to get into the story, since I'll guess that most of
the readers will be humans. The humans will serve as the baseline of
"normal."
And the undercover part is a Good Idea. It's kinda the whole point of
transforming (and not having big visible heads sticking out of our roofs,
Energon Ironhide).
Mark
"Sincerely hoping that I don't end up in Cornwall."
robo_rob
<jimso...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1117261752.3...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Newsarama interviewed Simon Furman about his involvement with the
> upcoming Transformers line.
>
> http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=880848
>
> In it several new aspects are revealed. In this version Transformers
> didn't come to Earth by accident. Much of the early story will be from
> the POV of human characters, as the Transformer action will be
> 'sub-radar.' There won't be new Cybertronian characters, but there
> will be 'new looks.'
>
The human element is probably just to get it started, he did mention it will
be more of a X-Files type story where they are working in secret. The humans
are probably just a good way to have their plight discovered and drop us
into story.
> I have mixed feelings about all of this. Certainly, it's not the
> direction I would have chosen to take the story. It seems to me that
> one would want Transformers to take the center stage in a Transformers
> book, and that if you're going to do G1 transformers that they should
> look like the classic G1 transformers.
>
I doubt Furman is going to make them supporting characters after the initial
arc.
> That said, if IDW is going to take this direction, I'm glad Furman is
> at the helm. And if the Transformers being 'sub-radar' is only for
> their introductory arc, that might not be problematic. As for 'new
> looks,' it's hard to know exactly what he means by that. It could be a
> complete revamping of characters as was done in the TF/GI Joe
> crossovers . . . or it could be just some artistic changes. I'm
> slightly more apprehensive now, but I'll keep an open mind and look
> forward to having new TF stories.
>
I think he means fleshing them out more and giving them more personality. As
for new look, I'm thinking Alternators. Rumor has had it that DW was gonna
work the Alternators into their G1 book at a point and rumor also had it DD
was gonna do it that way if they had the liscense. Which would make pefect
sense for this story, if they are working in secret, why wouldnt they change
into modern vehicles to keep suspiction low?
--
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/georgiatransfans/
a mailing list for Transformers fans in Georgia
> JimS
>
jimso...@gmail.com
> story on Earth is focussed on humans. I'm used to 'em by now. Besides, they
> make a logical place to get into the story, since I'll guess that most of
> the readers will be humans. The humans will serve as the baseline of
> "normal."
Well, as you say, every other story on Earth is focused on humans . . .
thats part of what makes Transformers different. I'm not down on human
participation. I love Buster and Marissa Fairborne and GB Blackrock.
I just am not sure that I want to book to be predominantly from a human
POV. What I like about transformers is the pathos . . . I want to be
able to get inside their heads (not literally like a Nebulon) and see
from their POV why they're fighting.
But I trust Simon and will give the book a shot . I'm not prejudging
it. It could be a fantastic start to a fantastic monthly series of
books. And if it's not, well, I've still got all of toon g1, all of
the US & UK classic g1 comics. I've still got the good DW stuff, and
heck, we might even get a conclusion of the DW stories.
JimS
ShadowWing
<jimso...@gmail.com> wrote
> Newsarama interviewed Simon Furman about his involvement with the
> upcoming Transformers line.
>
> http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=880848
"Think of this as G1 for a generation raised on X-Files and conspiracy
theories in general."
Oh, dear Primus NO! I am so sick and tired of "conspiracy" stuff. That's
the only thing about Dreamwave's run that bothered me! And haven't folks
complained about the whole "larger destiny" thing involved with the
Transformers being created to battle Unicron? Doesn't having them come to
Earth for a specific reason seem somewhat similar?
" I always thought the ‘robots in disguise’ thing was the most interesting
aspect of the Transformers, the whole ‘they are among us but we don’t know’
angle. When you think about it, what these guys are good at is blending in,
becoming ‘invisible’ among the general populace of any given planet. That’s
key to what we’re setting up here."
Well, this sounds good, at least. It's what I liked about the Budiansky
run. Although the Decepticons never kept that low a profile, but you
wouldn't expect them to.
"Trust me, the days of Buster/Spike Witwicky are long gone!"
G1 timelines aren't the same without the Witwickys! But at least the
humans will still have a major part. It's their/our planet, after all.
"All I can say, is that Ratchet (who, in this new incarnation, is more of a
rebel)..."
Define "rebel", Simon! This is too vague to not concern me.
"The idea of someone torn between following (military) orders and obeying
his internal prime directive (to save lives) appeals to me."
I wasn't a big fan of the GI Joe cartoon, but this is why I liked
Lifeline, so it should be interesting.
--
updated before I die:
The Transformation Zone
http://pages.cthome.net/ShadowWing
Grebo
related to Transformers. There's no question I'll be getting IDW's TF
comics. And, I am hoping it will be good and plan to give it every
chance and keep an open mind.
However, this description does lead to expect that the first issue of
this comic will have the same flaw as SO MANY other first issues these
days (I'm talking non-TF related comics). I fully expect that in the
first issue, the first and only TF we'll see will be in the last page.
Its entirely possible we'll see none, and we'll just see the Ark in the
last page of the first issue.
(Obviously, beyond that, we'll see the TFs more.)
This is done SO often in comics these days. Worst offender: Ultimate
Iron Man #1. In that, not only was the Iron Man armor never seen in the
first issue, Tony Stark (Iron Man's alter ego) wasn't even in the first
issue!!! The whole damn thing was about his parents getting sick.
L-A-M-E. Sure, this works fine in TPB format, but when you get the
first issue by itself... what a letdown.
OK, anyway, rant over. I gotta admit Im encouraged by the return to the
"Robots In Disguise" theme. Who knows? Maybe this book'll be great!
Grebo
Pyre
> As for 'new
> looks,' it's hard to know exactly what he means by that. It could be a
> complete revamping of characters as was done in the TF/GI Joe
> crossovers . . . or it could be just some artistic changes.
I'm thinking he means more updated alternate modes like Alternators or
something. Most of the 84-85 G1 alt modes really didn't make good
disguises.
--
Pyre[Rock] - pyres...@crosswinds.net
http://pyresdomain.crosswinds.net/
"If you think it's over better think again. There'll be no compromise.
Turning up the power, feel adrenaline, move into overdrive."
jimso...@gmail.com
Pyre wrote:
> jimso...@gmail.com wrote:
> > As for 'new
> > looks,' it's hard to know exactly what he means by that. It could be a
> > complete revamping of characters as was done in the TF/GI Joe
> > crossovers . . . or it could be just some artistic changes.
>
> I'm thinking he means more updated alternate modes like Alternators or
> something. Most of the 84-85 G1 alt modes really didn't make good
> disguises.
Hmmm . . . though I like the Alternators, I'm still a bigger fan of the
classic modes, especially for a g1 comic. Still, with Alternators
there is the potential for coolness.
JimS
Pyre
>
> I don't get what everyone's problem is with humans. Pretty much every other
> story on Earth is focussed on humans.
I don't mind human characters as long as they're not incredibly annoying
kids and the main focus of the story *cough*Armada*cough*. If I'm
reading a Batman story, I don't want the focus to be on some nobody and
we see very little of Batman. I wanna read about Batman.
gem...@tpg.com.au
wrote:
>I don't get what everyone's problem is with humans. Pretty much every other
>story on Earth is focussed on humans. I'm used to 'em by now. Besides, they
>make a logical place to get into the story, since I'll guess that most of
>the readers will be humans. The humans will serve as the baseline of
>"normal."
There are already plenty of comics which star humans. If we wanted issues
1-300 of The Humans (with occasional cameos by Transformers), we know
where to go. Transformers are human enough psychologically for us to
identify with them ridiculously easily - we don't need a "normal" baseline
any more than Sonic the Hedgehog, Mickey Mouse or Reboot.
_Harry Potter_ doesn't present muggles as a baseline - it's mostly set
within the world of the wizards, and the vast majority of the characters
are wizards, witches or otherwise supernatural. A noticeable proportion of
children's media is set in worlds with entirely or almost entirely
nonhuman characters. So why the emphasis on 'baseline humans'?
Mentally, Transformers are just metal-plated people. They react the same
way, they talk and live and interact in the same ways. The success of
_Beast Wars_ (and, to a lesser extent, _Beast Machines_) shows that human
characters aren't necessary.
I mean, come on, hands up anyone who watched _Beast Wars_ for the
protohumans? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
It's not that _Transformers_ can't have any human characters at all. It's
that most of the time it doesn't need them. We buy Transformers comics to
read about, guess what, giant alien robots, their ongoing civil war, and
the associated robotic carnage and trauma. Taking three issues off to
follow the life of a Witwicky as they go to school and do their homework
is not "providing a baseline character we can all identify with and/or use
to highlight the alienness of the Transformers", it's BORING. Those panels
could have been used for another battle, or character development, or a
sub-plot, or the set-up for an upcoming Furmapocalypse.
Let's have the story from the perspective of the aliens, huh? Use the
inherent differences of the franchise to actually distinguish it from The
Adventures of Little Johnny And His Giant Alien Robot Friends.
-SteveD
Grebo
-- especially G1. I agree that TF can be done without humans, BW being
proof, but I have nothing against humans.
As has been said earlier, as long as they're not super-annoying brats
ala Armada, its fine.
Grebo!
Chad Rushing
fandoms in which "getting inside of their heads" has a completely
different meaning than normal.
- Chad
Chad Rushing
universe, even if that means eliminating Primus, too.
I am sick and tired of Unicron. He's been done to death as far as I'm
concerned, and I'd really like for the TFs deal with a totally
different threat this time around. Heck, I'd prefer TFs vs. the Borg
over another TFs vs. Unicron story ... and I'm not even a STAR TREK
fan.
- Chad
who really wonders how much of a different direction a long-time,
entrenched writer like Furman can really accomplish
jimso...@gmail.com
That's kind of funny. I'm worried that things will be too dissimilar
to what we've seen before, based on the Furman interview, and you're
worried that things will be too similar, based on Furman himself.
JimS
Mark Brown
news:e_ednUcfJ_O...@adelphia.com...
*SNIP*
> I don't mind human characters as long as they're not incredibly annoying
> kids and the main focus of the story *cough*Armada*cough*. If I'm reading
> a Batman story, I don't want the focus to be on some nobody and we see
> very little of Batman. I wanna read about Batman.
But being the star of something is not like being in every scene. At times,
~not~ seeing something can be much more effective than seeing it.
It's like Rosencrantz and Guildenstern. Yeah the play's about Hamlet, but we
learn about him ~through~ the actions/words/reactions of his friends. Or
like X-Files (to follow the IDW guy's metaphor); how many times did we
actually ~see~ the aliens? Once or twice. The "black oil" was a little more
visible, but not by much. Yet they were both part of the main point of the
show --illustrated by how Mulder, Scully, and others ~reacted~ to the idea
of them.
Heck, some of the best "Batman" stories I've read are in Gotham_Central,
where Batman doesn't even appear. There's one issue about the dismantling of
the BatSignal, and we see what this event means through the eyes of a temp
(not even one of the series leads) watching others' reactions and reflecting
on her own feelings. The story wouldn't exist without the Batman, and his
presence is so critical that he doesn't have to actually appear.
Mark
"Waiting for Gobot."
Mark Brown
news:c07h919vm4bps9rmo...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 28 May 2005 09:35:45 -0400, "Mark Brown" <mark....@cyberus.ca>
> wrote:
>>I don't get what everyone's problem is with humans. Pretty much every
>>other
>>story on Earth is focussed on humans. I'm used to 'em by now. Besides,
>>they
>>make a logical place to get into the story, since I'll guess that most of
>>the readers will be humans. The humans will serve as the baseline of
>>"normal."
> There are already plenty of comics which star humans. If we wanted issues
> 1-300 of The Humans (with occasional cameos by Transformers), we know
> where to go. Transformers are human enough psychologically for us to
> identify with them ridiculously easily - we don't need a "normal" baseline
> any more than Sonic the Hedgehog, Mickey Mouse or Reboot.
> Mentally, Transformers are just metal-plated people. They react the same
> way, they talk and live and interact in the same ways.
They have a star-spanning civilization, with FTL travel and confirmed
presence of alien (non-Transformer) life. Humans are confined to one rock,
without even a unified government, and many of us don't even believe that
aliens exist or that FTL travel is possible.
Transformers can be brought back from "death" (stasis-lock), be reformatted
into whatever form they choose, and are effectively immortal. Humans are
weak, fragile, stuck in bodies that we usually don't particularly like, and
short-lived.
Transformers have neither sex (either the biological dimorphism or the
physical act), gender (assigned social roles), or sexuality (instinctual
mating drives). Humans are ~obsessed~ with sex, gender, sexuality, and
anything remotely related.
Transformer religion is based around Primus (who people can talk to), and
sparks (that can be taken out, analyzed, measured, transplanted and
polarized). Humans can present no physical proof that we are anything but
sacks of meat and hardwired instincts masquerading as "free will."
Transformers have been at war for longer than homo sapiens has existed. The
vast majority of the comic book's audience (and I assume the human
characters) will likely be civillians, living in relatively safe cities,
most of whom have probably never even been in serious combat.
>The success of
> _Beast Wars_ (and, to a lesser extent, _Beast Machines_) shows that human
> characters aren't necessary.
Yes, because BW/BM existed, effectively, in a vacuum. G1 exists in the
context of a human-dominated world. If we were talking about G1 as it
involved Shockwave and Elita-1 on Cybertron, then I'd agree; no humans. But
on Earth, upon which humans are both ubiquitous and well-connected (thanks
to modern globalization), human interactions will be inevitable.
> I mean, come on, hands up anyone who watched _Beast Wars_ for the
> protohumans? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
Of course not, because the protohumans were easy to avoid, and didn't
involve themselves in the TFs' war. Modern humans are unavoidable and
stupid/arrogant enough to think we can handle it.
> It's not that _Transformers_ can't have any human characters at all. It's
> that most of the time it doesn't need them. We buy Transformers comics to
> read about, guess what, giant alien robots, their ongoing civil war, and
> the associated robotic carnage and trauma.
Which happens to (at least some of the time) take place on Earth.
> Taking three issues off to
> follow the life of a Witwicky as they go to school and do their homework
> is not "providing a baseline character we can all identify with and/or use
> to highlight the alienness of the Transformers", it's BORING.
What about showing a Witwicky as he deals with questions about the nature of
life? Or a Faireborne dealing with the moral issues of genocide? Or a
Blackrock as he schemes to enslave and profit from the machines, slowly
coming to witness their "humanity" as he realizes the absence of his own? Or
an Onichi discovering the spirituality underlying the technology of these
aliens? Or a Jones having family/girlfriend problems, and trying to explain
it to a being whose definition of "family" is completely different, and
doesn't know what a "girlfriend" is or why such a thing would be desirable?
Or Autobots, cut off from reinforcements and supplies and forced to turn to
the humans to feed and equip them? Neither side fully trusts the others, but
the humans need the Autobots to stop the Decepticons, and the Autobots need
energon and repair equipment.
> Those panels
> could have been used for another battle, or character development, or a
> sub-plot, or the set-up for an upcoming Furmapocalypse.
*SNIP*
Those panels could ~be~ character development, or sub-plot, or battle
(metaphorically or literally).
I remain convinced that human characters, if written ~well,~ can improve a
TF series. The only trouble is that we've never had them written well
(except for the first few eps of Energon). The trouble is the tendency of
writers to treat one or the other as walking plot-exposition machines.
Mark
"Write them both as ~people,~ and watch what happens."
Chad Rushing
direction" will just be the same "old direction" Furman's always had.
If they say they are going to try something new, then they should
actually try something NEW.
There is a reason why creative teams on comic books such as SUPERMAN
and BATMAN are changed around a good bit, even when sales are doing
very well. The comic industry knows that one can inadvertently get
into a rut if only one creative team works on a property forever. You
have to bring in new people from time to time to inject some new ideas
into the characters and keep them fresh, even if the fans are initially
adverse to those new ideas.
Since Furman has invested so much into the Unicron/Primus storylines
over the years (not to mention Grimlock), I just don't know if he'll be
able to break away from that and approach the Transformers from a
different direction altogether.
Now there are those who really hate the idea of the Transformers mythos
being reinvented all over again; however, ever since ARMADA, I have
come to accept the fact that TRANSFORMERS will be much like STREET
FIGHTER (or MOBILE SUIT GUNDAM) going forward because it is difficult
for writers to have to keep up with years and years of past canon and
they are constrained by that same canon. Even Marvel (Ultimate
universe) and DC (Golden Age vs. Silver Age vs. Post-Crisis Age) have
had to reinvent their comic universes to keep up with the times.
What I mean by TRANSFORMERS being like STREET FIGHTER is that we'll
have the same basic characters every time (Optimus, Jetfire, Megatron,
Starscream like Ryu, Ken, M. Bison, Vega) with fixed character traits,
but all of the other details -- settings, plot, alliances -- are fair
game. I'm *now* OK with this (I was not before) because this was done
for GALAXY FORCE, and I think that is the best TF story we've gotten in
ages.
What I want to see from IDW is a new perspective on G1 that stays true
to the characters but does not try to adhere to every little detail
from past G1 canons. Make Thundercracker a spy for the Autobots. Make
Mirage a deserter. Give them all updated Terran vehicle forms versus
cars from 25 years ago. Go wild. The fact that it will not be
starting with the Ark crashing to Earth hints to me that they are going
to try to do something new after all.
- Chad
who has probably read over 10,000 comic books in his lifetime
bar...@shentel.net
I just read about this and I'm not sure about the ideas. Coming to
Earth intentionally just doesn't say G1 to me. Optimus Prime wouldn't
risk another sentient race in his war. And if the Decepticons come
here and are followed, well I don't see the Decepticons operating under
the radar.
Plus if the are operating under the radar I'd rather see it from the
Transformers POV than the humans. Rather see them try to avoid
detection and their initial impressions of Earth.
JLB
Kil - Michael McCarthy
> Transformers have neither sex (either the biological dimorphism or the
> physical act),
"Find any new... positions?"
> gender (assigned social roles),
There are Transformers who are called female, and look female, and
sound female, and I once saw one of them kiss another Transformer on
the cheek as that other Transformer called her "my girlfriend."
> or sexuality (instinctual
> mating drives).
I'll agree on the lack of instinctual mating drives, as they don't
reproduce sexually.
-Kil
Mark Brown
news:1117398495.3...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
*SNIP*
> I just read about this and I'm not sure about the ideas. Coming to
> Earth intentionally just doesn't say G1 to me. Optimus Prime wouldn't
> risk another sentient race in his war. And if the Decepticons come
> here and are followed, well I don't see the Decepticons operating under
> the radar.
What if the Autobots arrive knowing that the Decepticon Empire is expanding
in this direction; Optimus ~would~ intervene to set up a security system
ahead of the inevitable Decepticon invasion.
So we have the Autobots on Earth, setting up secret bases, establishing a
RiD-style global spacebridge (for rapid deployment), maybe leaking a few
weapons ideas to the EDC-analogue through careful "blind" channels (that
crash at Roswell? A carefully-prepared testbed of Cybertronian technology
that the Autobots ~wanted~ the humans to capture). They use Earth-level
technology whenever possible, to remain undetected (a phone call in the
right ear, a comment in the right chatroom --just enough to make evidence
get misfiled, or get people to ask the right questions at the right time).
When the Decepticons arrive, they first have to get through an Autobot
blockade around the system (ever wonder why so many of our mars probes
suddenly stop functioning for no good reason? Autobase Mars maintaining
operational security). By the time they reach Earth (if they get that far),
they're weakened enough for the EDC's reverse-engineered alien tech to have
a fighting chance, with the Autobots still hiding out as backup for when the
EDC gets in over their heads (Like when Megatron arrives). Of course, the
EDC aren't discriminating, and will attack Autobot & Decepticon alike, so
the Autobots can't help openly.
The 'cons are forced to likewise stay undercover, because they don't know
how many Autobots are here, and there aren't enough Decepticons here (yet)
to give them a guaranteed victory. Megatron's priority is to locate and
disable all the Autobases, then the EDC, throwing wide the gates for the
full-scale invasion.
Meanwhile, a young conspiracy buff is putting together reports of UFOs,
strange natural phenomena (underground structures, things built to "giant"
scale, Atlantean "power crystals" [Vok-seeded energon?]), unexplained covert
ops by a group independent of any known military (either the EDC or the
Decepticons), and reports of driverless vehicles (like the one rogue patrol
car at Rendlesham forest in 1980, which could've been Prowl sneaking away
from a landing/crash site).
Mark
"You see conspiracies everywhere."
"Not conspiracies. Conspiracy. Singular." --Green Arrow & Question (JLU)
Mark Brown
news:1117420257.4...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Mark Brown wrote...
>> Transformers have neither sex (either the biological dimorphism or the
>> physical act),
> "Find any new... positions?"
Well, okay, outside of beast modes and Ratrap's personal perversion. I was
talking G1-esque.
>> gender (assigned social roles),
> There are Transformers who are called female, and look female, and
> sound female, and I once saw one of them kiss another Transformer on
> the cheek as that other Transformer called her "my girlfriend."
*SNIP*
Yes, but TFs can completely change bodies like we change hairstyles. Any TF
femmes are such because they've ~chosen~ to be (or remain, in the Quintesson
genesis) femmes. And we've seen femmes who are every bit as heavily armoured
and/or armed as the males (Stryka, Roulette, E-Arcee), so it can't be a
matter of "femmes belong in the [insert non-combat environment]."
Except for the JP BWNeo manga. But it's. . . odd.
I should probably have clarified that I consider "gender" to be behavioural,
while "sex" is the physical quality. Transformers ~appear~ to have sexes
(even if they don't actually), but there's no real indication that there has
ever been any sort of imposed behavioural standards (i.e., that femmes and
males are expected to behave consistantly differently).
Mark
"He's ~proud~ of it. He has a coffee cup that says 'Perv' on the
side." --regarding a (Rattrap-like) high school friend.
Kil - Michael McCarthy
> "Kil - Michael McCarthy" <michae...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1117420257.4...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > Mark Brown wrote...
> >> Transformers have neither sex (either the biological dimorphism or the
> >> physical act),
> > "Find any new... positions?"
>
> Well, okay, outside of beast modes and Ratrap's personal perversion. I was
> talking G1-esque.
I figured you weren't thinking of BW, but you did just say
"Transformers."
> Yes, but TFs can completely change bodies like we change hairstyles.
They can? I never noticed that.
A change of bodies usually involves a Matrix or Unicron or an Oracle or
a quantum surge or the old body being destroyed or severly damaged
first, and is usually involuntary.
Any examples of this casual-as-a-haircut body changing?
> Any TF
> femmes are such because they've ~chosen~ to be (or remain, in the Quintesson
> genesis) femmes.
Says who? Says what?
How do you know it's not the _spark_ that decides the gender, hmmm?
-Kil
"Beauty Personified"
Mark Brown wrote:
>> Any TF femmes are such because they've ~chosen~ to be (or remain, in the
>> Quintesson genesis) femmes. <<
Kil wrote:
> Says who? Says what?
>
> How do you know it's not the _spark_ that decides the gender, hmmm? <
Oooh. This is getting into some controversial territory. I wonder how long
before someone brings up Tracks? ;-)
Anyhoo...
Christopher "Beautiful" Carlson
Canada's #1 Nashville Predators Fan
"You can never have too many pucks."
http://www.livejournal.com/users/beautypersoni/
bar...@shentel.net
Mark Brown wrote:
> <bar...@shentel.net> wrote in message
> news:1117398495.3...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> *SNIP*
> > I just read about this and I'm not sure about the ideas. Coming to
> > Earth intentionally just doesn't say G1 to me. Optimus Prime wouldn't
> > risk another sentient race in his war. And if the Decepticons come
> > here and are followed, well I don't see the Decepticons operating under
> > the radar.
> *SNIP*
>
> What if the Autobots arrive knowing that the Decepticon Empire is expanding
> in this direction; Optimus ~would~ intervene to set up a security system
> ahead of the inevitable Decepticon invasion.
>
> So we have the Autobots on Earth, setting up secret bases, establishing a
> RiD-style global spacebridge (for rapid deployment), maybe leaking a few
> weapons ideas to the EDC-analogue through careful "blind" channels (that
> crash at Roswell? A carefully-prepared testbed of Cybertronian technology
> that the Autobots ~wanted~ the humans to capture). They use Earth-level
> technology whenever possible, to remain undetected (a phone call in the
> right ear, a comment in the right chatroom --just enough to make evidence
> get misfiled, or get people to ask the right questions at the right time).
Well, your mention of RiD is appropriate there. Because that's what
your reminds me of. And RiD isn't G1.
>
> When the Decepticons arrive, they first have to get through an Autobot
> blockade around the system (ever wonder why so many of our mars probes
> suddenly stop functioning for no good reason? Autobase Mars maintaining
> operational security). By the time they reach Earth (if they get that far),
> they're weakened enough for the EDC's reverse-engineered alien tech to have
> a fighting chance, with the Autobots still hiding out as backup for when the
> EDC gets in over their heads (Like when Megatron arrives). Of course, the
> EDC aren't discriminating, and will attack Autobot & Decepticon alike, so
> the Autobots can't help openly.
>
> The 'cons are forced to likewise stay undercover, because they don't know
> how many Autobots are here, and there aren't enough Decepticons here (yet)
> to give them a guaranteed victory. Megatron's priority is to locate and
> disable all the Autobases, then the EDC, throwing wide the gates for the
> full-scale invasion.
I think the 'Cons would be rather public to draw out the Autobots. But
then I'm not one who thinks much of bad guys. Maybe others give them
credit for more than brute force, but I really don't.
>
JLB
Chad Rushing
mind is spilling over with interesting ideas for a G1 reinvention.
See what I mean from my earlier post when I say that new people bring
with them totally new ideas?
- Chad
Chad Rushing
the TF was a conceited fop at worst. It is like he considers himself
more refined or cultured than everybody else and doesn't want to get
his hands dirty (figuratively and literally speaking). I knew this guy
in high school who had very much of the same personality.
- Chad
who still thinks IN & OUT was one of the most illogical movies he's
ever seen
Ethan Hammond
--
All Purpose Culture Randomness
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/apcr/index.html
Mark Brown
"Kil - Michael McCarthy" <michae...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1117471977....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Mark Brown wrote...
>> "Kil - Michael McCarthy" <michae...@aol.com> wrote in message
>> news:1117420257.4...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> > Mark Brown wrote...
>> Yes, but TFs can completely change bodies like we change hairstyles.
> They can? I never noticed that.
> A change of bodies usually involves a Matrix or Unicron or an Oracle or
> a quantum surge or the old body being destroyed or severly damaged
> first, and is usually involuntary.
Or a voluntary reformatting (the BW Maximals & Preds upon first arriving on
Earth, RiD [as demonstrated by SkidZ and possibly Towline],
Galaxy_Force --in all situations it's strongly implied [or stated outright]
that the choices of alt-mode [and presumably transformation scheme and root
mode] are voluntary).
I was mainly going by the fact that we've never seen any TF express any
dissatisfaction with their bodies. Well, except for that comicverse Dinobot
[was it Snarl or Sludge who hated being a dinosaur?] and Waspinator
("Waspinator sick of being bug.").
I take this to imply that (barring special circumstances [the body being a
"rental," the absence of CR facilities, the necessity of a team design
motif, etc]) TFs are free to reformat themselves if they end up in a body
they don't want. The Dinobot & Waspinator were special cases, since the
Dinobot was stuck on Earth, and Waspinator had. . . other problems.
> Any examples of this casual-as-a-haircut body changing?
As above: the adoption of alt-modes in everything except G1 seemed pretty
voluntary (what we saw of it, anyway). Which, if nothing else, implies the
ready availability of reformatting technology. Heck, for all we know there
were hours cut out of MTMTE where Decepticons & Autobots woke up with
alt-modes they didn't like and told Teletraan-1 to "fix it" (Tracks probably
went through four or five designs before finding his Corvette body ;) ).
Certainly, it's easier for TFs than the equivalent (large-scale plastic
surgery) is for humans.
>> Any TF
>> femmes are such because they've ~chosen~ to be (or remain, in the
>> Quintesson
>> genesis) femmes.
> Says who? Says what?
> How do you know it's not the _spark_ that decides the gender, hmmm?
Okay, I'll grant that possibility, but only because it's never really been
explained exactly how TF identities are formed: on one hand there's the
spark (or, retroactively, the "personality component" or "laser core" in
G1), which we know has some role in carrying an identity. There's also the
neural web, or central processor, that carries information (and can be
reprogrammed or reset, as per Tigatron's hacking of everyone's "Maximal core
consciousness" in BW).
I don't really see how "mind/personality" (the spark) and
"knowledge/memories" (the core-consciousness) can be divided. I mean, when
Rhinox's spark is put into Tankorr, Tankorr manages to regain Rhinox'
memories (which should only be possible if Megatron was stupid enough to use
Rhinox' CPU in Tankorr's head). Same with
Silverbolt=>Jetstorm=>BroodySilverbolt, and Megatron's own spark being
shunted into Savage/Noble (who must've had an organic brain with its own
distinct energy pattern) and the Diagnostic Drone --all while retaining his
memories.
Where'm I going with all this? Well, what if I were to take a "female" spark
and put it into a "male" body with a male-programmed AI? Would the result be
a male TF? Would "he" quickly find a reformatting chamber and design a
female body? Or would I just end up with a "Stryka" --a femmebot, but one
bearing heavy armour and a deep voice?
Thing is, TF bodies are (post Beast-era worldbuilding) just vessels for the
sparks. We ~know~ that some TFs look male while others look female, but we
have no reason to assume that this is anything more than a matter of choice.
There's nothing to indicate that male and female TFs are programmed or
behave (or think) differently (as humans do, influenced by testosterone and
estrogen, respectively).
Mark
"Basically, I can't imagine TF society getting caught up in gender
politics."
Mark Brown
news:1117496350....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Mark Brown wrote:
*SNIP*
>> So we have the Autobots on Earth, setting up secret bases, establishing a
>> RiD-style global spacebridge (for rapid deployment), maybe leaking a few
>> weapons ideas to the EDC-analogue through careful "blind" channels (that
>> crash at Roswell? A carefully-prepared testbed of Cybertronian technology
>> that the Autobots ~wanted~ the humans to capture). They use Earth-level
>> technology whenever possible, to remain undetected (a phone call in the
>> right ear, a comment in the right chatroom --just enough to make evidence
>> get misfiled, or get people to ask the right questions at the right
>> time).
> Well, your mention of RiD is appropriate there. Because that's what
> your reminds me of. And RiD isn't G1.
I fail to see how this is a problem; G1, for all its brilliant concept, was
wracked with flaws (the humans largely ignored the giant alien robots, the
TFs didn't even ~attempt~ to keep a low profile, Megatron was a flaming
idiot, people could drive from the US to Antarctica in a half-hour, etc).
*SNIP*
>> The 'cons are forced to likewise stay undercover, because they don't know
>> how many Autobots are here, and there aren't enough Decepticons here
>> (yet)
>> to give them a guaranteed victory. Megatron's priority is to locate and
>> disable all the Autobases, then the EDC, throwing wide the gates for the
>> full-scale invasion.
> I think the 'Cons would be rather public to draw out the Autobots. But
> then I'm not one who thinks much of bad guys. Maybe others give them
> credit for more than brute force, but I really don't.
Maybe. I'm assuming of course that this version of Megatron will actually
reflect that he's the leader of a burgeoning Empire, and not an 80's parody
of Evil.
Mark
"Notes that having a limited number of troops is really the only thing that
justifies keeping Starscream alive."
Mark Brown
news:1117519335....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Dude, they should just let you write the new book. It sounds like your
> mind is spilling over with interesting ideas for a G1 reinvention.
*bows*
Well, I try.
Actually, a lot of that is from my own in-progress fanfic series. Its
another universe reboot, but it allows for a G1-esque backstory, and I'm
trying to make it as close to a TV series as possible (each "episode" should
take about a half-hour to read, avoiding anything objectionable [violence,
gore, sexuality, language] that I can't justify with an example of a
kids-targetted show from the past decade). Basically it's my attempt to
prove that it ~is~ possible to write a good TF story with a heavy human
presence.
It's actually a lot of fun, and my human teenagers have become cool enough
that I now want to slip those characters into my professional writing.
Mark
"Currently on episode 37: Consequences."
G.B. Blackrock
Mark Brown wrote:
> <bar...@shentel.net> wrote in message
>
> I fail to see how this is a problem; G1, for all its brilliant concept, was
> wracked with flaws (the humans largely ignored the giant alien robots, the
> TFs didn't even ~attempt~ to keep a low profile, Megatron was a flaming
> idiot, people could drive from the US to Antarctica in a half-hour, etc).
I hasten to point out that this was the situation with the G1 cartoon,
and NOT the Marvel G1 comic, where the Autobots were very concerned
about keeping a low profile, and the humans were rather concerned about
the Transformers in general.
G.B. Blackrock
bar...@shentel.net
Mark Brown wrote:
> <bar...@shentel.net> wrote in message
> news:1117496350....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > Mark Brown wrote:
> *SNIP*
> >> So we have the Autobots on Earth, setting up secret bases, establishing a
> >> RiD-style global spacebridge (for rapid deployment), maybe leaking a few
> >> weapons ideas to the EDC-analogue through careful "blind" channels (that
> >> crash at Roswell? A carefully-prepared testbed of Cybertronian technology
> >> that the Autobots ~wanted~ the humans to capture). They use Earth-level
> >> technology whenever possible, to remain undetected (a phone call in the
> >> right ear, a comment in the right chatroom --just enough to make evidence
> >> get misfiled, or get people to ask the right questions at the right
> >> time).
> > Well, your mention of RiD is appropriate there. Because that's what
> > your reminds me of. And RiD isn't G1.
>
> I fail to see how this is a problem; G1, for all its brilliant concept, was
> wracked with flaws (the humans largely ignored the giant alien robots, the
> TFs didn't even ~attempt~ to keep a low profile, Megatron was a flaming
> idiot, people could drive from the US to Antarctica in a half-hour, etc).
They didn't ignore them they cheered them. Which made sense to me.
Frankly in that situation you should be worroed about chasing off your
protectors or uniting the two factions against a common enemy by doing
something stupid.
>
> *SNIP*
> >> The 'cons are forced to likewise stay undercover, because they don't know
> >> how many Autobots are here, and there aren't enough Decepticons here
> >> (yet)
> >> to give them a guaranteed victory. Megatron's priority is to locate and
> >> disable all the Autobases, then the EDC, throwing wide the gates for the
> >> full-scale invasion.
> > I think the 'Cons would be rather public to draw out the Autobots. But
> > then I'm not one who thinks much of bad guys. Maybe others give them
> > credit for more than brute force, but I really don't.
>
> Maybe. I'm assuming of course that this version of Megatron will actually
> reflect that he's the leader of a burgeoning Empire, and not an 80's parody
> of Evil.
Didn't the Romans (for the most part) come to power by busting into
their enemies territory and just taking over, not infiltrating subtly?
JLB
Kil - Michael McCarthy
>
> Or a voluntary reformatting (the BW Maximals & Preds upon first arriving on
> Earth,
The Beast Warriors adoption of organic beast modes was a necessity for
operating in the enviroment they found themselves in, and so not really
a voluntary decision. And I don't know if they got to choose their own
animal forms or had them assigned by their computers, or what.
Certainly no one who came out of a stasis pod had any choice in their
own beast mode selection.
> RiD [as demonstrated by SkidZ and possibly Towline],
> Galaxy_Force --in all situations it's strongly implied [or stated outright]
> that the choices of alt-mode [and presumably transformation scheme and root
> mode] are voluntary).
Well, I didn't see much of RiD, and have seen none of Galaxy Force.
I'll grant that are situations where body alterations are easily and
voluntarily done, but I don't think any of them have been for cosmetic
reasons rather than for mission-specific requirements.
> I was mainly going by the fact that we've never seen any TF express any
> dissatisfaction with their bodies. Well, except for that comicverse Dinobot
> [was it Snarl or Sludge who hated being a dinosaur?]
Megatron in "Microbots" spoke of the good ol' days, back before he and
the other 'Cons had to go around in their ugly Earth disguises.
Yet even after they had relocated back to Cyberton in 2005, not a one
of them ditched their Earth mode.
> and Waspinator
> ("Waspinator sick of being bug.").
???
I don't recall Waspy ever saying that. Do you know what episode that's
supposedly from?
> > Any examples of this casual-as-a-haircut body changing?
>
> As above: the adoption of alt-modes in everything except G1 seemed pretty
> voluntary (what we saw of it, anyway).
I saw Teletraan-1 repair Skywarp and Optimus Prime, and in doing so
alter them to transform into an F-15 and an Earth truck. Neither of
them had any say in this process.
> Which, if nothing else, implies the
> ready availability of reformatting technology. Heck, for all we know there
> were hours cut out of MTMTE where Decepticons & Autobots woke up with
> alt-modes they didn't like and told Teletraan-1 to "fix it"
Well sure, and I can just as easily say that for all we know when we
weren't looking Starscream asked Teletraan to change him into a
different kind of airplane and was told that was impossible. And then
he bitched about it till Megatron up and smacked him. ; )
> Certainly, it's easier for TFs than the equivalent (large-scale plastic
> surgery) is for humans.
True.
And I'd say that for protoform-based TFs, it's probably easiest of all.
> Thing is, TF bodies are (post Beast-era worldbuilding) just vessels for the
> sparks. We ~know~ that some TFs look male while others look female, but we
> have no reason to assume that this is anything more than a matter of choice.
But I don't see any reason to assume that it's some "choice" at all.
What evidence is there that Arcee or Beta or Moonracer or BlackArachnia
or Falcia or Road Rage or Glyph or the Paradron Medic _chose_ to be
female?
Personal theory/speculation time: I have it in my head (which follows
the cartoon-verse) that Vector Sigma has "male" as it's default
setting, but if you request that It give your robot a cybernetic
personality that it is "female," then that's what you get -- a robot
who _is_ female, right down to her spark/laser core.
> There's nothing to indicate that male and female TFs are programmed or
> behave (or think) differently (as humans do, influenced by testosterone and
> estrogen, respectively).
When Ariel kisses Orion Pax on the cheek and says "don't mind him, he's
just the jealous type" after he called her his girlfriend, they are
behaving very much like a human male and a human female.
Same thing when BlackArachnia flirts with Quickstrike to get him to do
her work for her, or when Cheetor drools over her, or when she and
Silverbolt kiss and do... whatever else they did.
> Mark
> "Basically, I can't imagine TF society getting caught up in gender
> politics."
Maybe not. But a lack of gender politics wouldn't mean a lack of gender
difference entirely. It would just mean it's not treated the same way
in their society as it is in ours.
-Kil
Mark Brown
news:1117562006.3...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Uh, right. Sorry. I keep forgetting about the G1 comic 'cause I couldn't
read it (because my hometown didn't really have a comic book store).
And now circumstances are likely to force me to move back there, so it's
entirely possible that I'll be equally unable to read the IDW comics. Or the
upcoming Firefly comics. Or the ongoing Star Wars comics. :'(
Mark
"May have to beg/cajole/trick mom into ordering online for me."
Mark Brown
news:1117590903....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Mark Brown wrote:
*SNIP*
>> I fail to see how this is a problem; G1, for all its brilliant concept,
>> was
>> wracked with flaws (the humans largely ignored the giant alien robots,
>> the
>> TFs didn't even ~attempt~ to keep a low profile, Megatron was a flaming
>> idiot, people could drive from the US to Antarctica in a half-hour, etc).
> They didn't ignore them they cheered them. Which made sense to me.
> Frankly in that situation you should be worroed about chasing off your
> protectors or uniting the two factions against a common enemy by doing
> something stupid.
But human governments have proven that they tend to be arrogant, greedy,
distrustful, and untrustworthy (especially those who believe that God is on
their side). I can't believe that the USA (just as a random example) would
agree to sit back and stay out of the Autobots' way, allowing them to do
whatever they decided was necessary.
Bear in mind that any government that managed to capture and master
Cybertronian tech would jump several centuries ahead of anyone else. We're
talking global economic and technological domination. The Superpowers (USA &
Soviet Union in the G1 'verse) would want it because they don't trust anyone
else (or each other) with the big toys, and everyone else would want it to
join (or overthrow) the Superpowers.
If nothing else, I'd expect black ops projects, aimed at scavenging and
reverse-engineering fallen TFs (like the ones seen in DW's G1 ongoing, with
Scourge). Probably aimed at developing anti-TF weapons in case the aliens
ever violate government territory. If we assume that the human technologists
are competent, then it could become very dangerous for TFs very quickly.
Likely the EDC would adopt a position of "kill 'em all and let the DoD sort
'em out." Like I said; humans are arrogant (and are raised on SF movies
where the aliens are always Evil and Earth/America is always victorious).
They may well be arrogant enough to assume they can defend Earth themselves,
without help from aliens.
*SNIP*
>> Maybe. I'm assuming of course that this version of Megatron will actually
>> reflect that he's the leader of a burgeoning Empire, and not an 80's
>> parody
>> of Evil.
> Didn't the Romans (for the most part) come to power by busting into
> their enemies territory and just taking over, not infiltrating subtly?
Yes, but the Romans tended to have massive armies and readily-visible
enemies. I'm assuming the Autobot blockade would manage to limit the
Decepticon troops making planetfall, and the Autobots on the surface would
manage to hide their numbers.
If Megatron has only a handful of reliable soldiers, he's not going to risk
an open assault on what could be over a hundred Autobots, and a human army
that may have access to TF-killing weaponry. His first priority would be
gathering intelligence (how many Autobots are here? What sort of resources
do the humans have? How can I get more Decepticon reinforcements?)
Mark
"A person is smart. ~People~ are stupid." --Agent K (MiB)
bar...@shentel.net
Mark Brown wrote:
> <bar...@shentel.net> wrote in message
> news:1117590903....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > Mark Brown wrote:
> *SNIP*
> >> I fail to see how this is a problem; G1, for all its brilliant concept,
> >> was
> >> wracked with flaws (the humans largely ignored the giant alien robots,
> >> the
> >> TFs didn't even ~attempt~ to keep a low profile, Megatron was a flaming
> >> idiot, people could drive from the US to Antarctica in a half-hour, etc).
> > They didn't ignore them they cheered them. Which made sense to me.
> > Frankly in that situation you should be worroed about chasing off your
> > protectors or uniting the two factions against a common enemy by doing
> > something stupid.
>
> But human governments have proven that they tend to be arrogant, greedy,
> distrustful, and untrustworthy (especially those who believe that God is on
> their side). I can't believe that the USA (just as a random example) would
> agree to sit back and stay out of the Autobots' way, allowing them to do
> whatever they decided was necessary.
I don't think they would. And given Optimus Prime's standard beliefs
I'd say he'd offer them tech to help them protect themselves, though
he'd strongly encourage them to stay out of the way.
>
> Bear in mind that any government that managed to capture and master
> Cybertronian tech would jump several centuries ahead of anyone else. We're
> talking global economic and technological domination. The Superpowers (USA &
> Soviet Union in the G1 'verse) would want it because they don't trust anyone
> else (or each other) with the big toys, and everyone else would want it to
> join (or overthrow) the Superpowers.
Of course what if the TF's jsut go to the UN and offer it to everyone,
to a degree. If eveyone has it it doesn't shift the power to much.
And they don't have no stinkin' Prime Directive.
>
> If nothing else, I'd expect black ops projects, aimed at scavenging and
> reverse-engineering fallen TFs (like the ones seen in DW's G1 ongoing, with
> Scourge). Probably aimed at developing anti-TF weapons in case the aliens
> ever violate government territory. If we assume that the human technologists
> are competent, then it could become very dangerous for TFs very quickly.
There are likely to be secret projects to go deeper and to insure what
they're being given is on the level.
>
> Likely the EDC would adopt a position of "kill 'em all and let the DoD sort
> 'em out." Like I said; humans are arrogant (and are raised on SF movies
> where the aliens are always Evil and Earth/America is always victorious).
> They may well be arrogant enough to assume they can defend Earth themselves,
> without help from aliens.
What about Star Trek? And Star Wars, where the human(or at least human
looking) characters have non-human allies. And one battle from the
TF's would show they were wrong.
>
> *SNIP*
> >> Maybe. I'm assuming of course that this version of Megatron will actually
> >> reflect that he's the leader of a burgeoning Empire, and not an 80's
> >> parody
> >> of Evil.
> > Didn't the Romans (for the most part) come to power by busting into
> > their enemies territory and just taking over, not infiltrating subtly?
>
> Yes, but the Romans tended to have massive armies and readily-visible
> enemies. I'm assuming the Autobot blockade would manage to limit the
> Decepticon troops making planetfall, and the Autobots on the surface would
> manage to hide their numbers.
>
> If Megatron has only a handful of reliable soldiers, he's not going to risk
> an open assault on what could be over a hundred Autobots, and a human army
> that may have access to TF-killing weaponry. His first priority would be
> gathering intelligence (how many Autobots are here? What sort of resources
> do the humans have? How can I get more Decepticon reinforcements?)
Well, then that would be another departure from G1, where the
Decepticons seemed to have the advantage on Cybertron. An Autobot
blockade would suggest they did, or at least the war was even. As for
gathering intelligence: Soundwave could hack all of Earth's computers
without being on the planet. Just tap a gov't satelite and trace it
back to where it sends it's data.
JLB
Switchback
gotta.
quick recap:
Brown says robots have no gender
Kil mentions Ariel and Orion in "War Dawn" (and various other examples)
This is one of the main reasons I don't think that the comic and
cartoon in their pure forms can't really be reconciled. Clearly they
have the concept of gender in the cartoons from any of the various
females and the relationships they brought up--let's face it, until BW,
the girls were simply the 'girlfriend characters' for the guys, even
Carly. But in the comic books they simply had no gender whatsoever,
except for Arcee who was designed to look female for human relations if
I heard right (I haven't read the UK comics).
But as for actual differences, it's hard to say. We know from
experience that FEMALE ROBOTS act FEMALE. Watch any episode featuring
a fem and you'll notice that she isn't acting exactly like the males.
All the information you need about the differences between boys and
girls is right there on any Transformer tape. Wait--uh... don't quote
me on that.
Now what I'm wondering about is, exactly what was that kiss a prelude
to? Where is this whole relationship eventually going? If Grebo's
theory is at all accurate about the Transformers being originally
organic (which makes some sense to me) then maybe the gender is simply
a part of their original nature that's left over. Even without sex
there's still some notions of romance right? But that doesn't really
go over well with Orion's "jealousy." Why be jealous if there is no
other end then romance? I really don't want to sink to the "tfs doit"
level. In "The Search for Alpha Trion" Optimus jumpstarts Elita. It's
possible that there is some sort of union--let's call it "marriage"--in
which two transformers make their "software compatible" and adjust
their adapters--let's call them "genitals"--wait, scratch that--so that
they can interface. Maybe for some reason only two transformers can do
this with eachother and it's desirable for both members. It would
explain their relationships as they would have to be rather attached to
eachother to make such a decision and it would justify the actual
difference in female mechanics. So a kiss is a sign of affection
between two robots who are considering this "marriage" as I so deem it.
No sex, just gender.
Now as for Tracks, well, if TFs really have the instinct to look for
the opposite gender left over from organic days then why not still have
the homosexual instincts? I'm suggesting that the spark DOES include
gender and consequently homosexuality.
If I'm not mistaken, sparks include the entire personality of the bot
and all his memories--unless it returns to Primus. That explains why
the Combaticons and Starscream's ghost still remember their past lives.
I wonder why Primus wants to erase memories? I'm still kinda
scratching my head as to how Silverbolt remembers being a cargo ship.
Wow I really drifted off-topic there (from something that was ALREADY
off-topic).
Back on track:
bar...@shentel.net wrote:
> Well, then that would be another departure from G1, where the
> Decepticons seemed to have the advantage on Cybertron. An Autobot
> blockade would suggest they did, or at least the war was even.
Not if the Bots got to Earth first. That changes things entirely.
As for
> gathering intelligence: Soundwave could hack all of Earth's computers
> without being on the planet. Just tap a gov't satelite and trace it
> back to where it sends it's data.
Makes sense.
As for Optimus giving humans technology? Obviously it happened if you
watch any post-movie episode, but you wouldn't think he would've right?
"Yes, we mean no harm to your planet and only want peace. Here, look,
WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION, don't use 'em all on one rival nation!"
Not like it really helps them against the Deceps anyway.
I really don't think that Optimus will even want the humans involved
though. He doesn't want to drag them into a multi-million year war
that shows no signs of letting up and only destroys MORE the more it
goes on.
I need a nap or something...
-Switchback ;)
Kil - Michael McCarthy
> Now as for Tracks, well, if TFs really have the instinct to look for
> the opposite gender left over from organic days then why not still have
> the homosexual instincts? I'm suggesting that the spark DOES include
> gender and consequently homosexuality.
You know, there's really no actual storyline reason that I'm aware of
for Tracks's name to be mentioned in that context.
> I'm still kinda
> scratching my head as to how Silverbolt remembers being a cargo ship.
I'd say residual memory files/AI left-over from the computer circuits
aboard the ship that was rebuilt into him.
> As for Optimus giving humans technology? Obviously it happened if you
> watch any post-movie episode, but you wouldn't think he would've right?
>
> "Yes, we mean no harm to your planet and only want peace. Here, look,
> WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION, don't use 'em all on one rival nation!"
Like the Negavator, jointly developed with the US military it seems.
One wonders what the Soviets thought of that.
-Kil
-----
The Kil File:
http://hometown.aol.com/michaelmcc79/index.html
Switchback
> You know, there's really no actual storyline reason that I'm aware of
> for Tracks's name to be mentioned in that context.
Okay, sorry. Let's just from now on use a neutral example name.
Let's say there's this blue and yellow robot who likes boys...
I'll ease up. I'm kinda partial to Chad Rushing's stand, actually.
> > I'm still kinda
> > scratching my head as to how Silverbolt remembers being a cargo ship.
>
> I'd say residual memory files/AI left-over from the computer circuits
> aboard the ship that was rebuilt into him.
That makes perfect sense. It sits in nicely with the idea of them
"only being created a few weeks ago" rather then having lived for
countless millions of years.
> > As for Optimus giving humans technology? Obviously it happened if you
> > watch any post-movie episode, but you wouldn't think he would've right?
> >
> > "Yes, we mean no harm to your planet and only want peace. Here, look,
> > WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION, don't use 'em all on one rival nation!"
>
> Like the Negavator, jointly developed with the US military it seems.
>
> One wonders what the Soviets thought of that.
Yeah, gotta love the TFs' partiality to America.
Megatron: "Nice red, white and blue paint job, Prime."
Optimus: "Well, darnit it's their cartoon."
-Switchback ;)
Denyer
> There are Transformers who are called female, and look female, and
> sound female, and I once saw one of them kiss another Transformer on
> the cheek as that other Transformer called her "my girlfriend."
Quintesson programming. Humans have vestigial tails, but they aren't a
major factor in social interaction.
D.
G.B. Blackrock
> Likely the EDC would adopt a position of "kill 'em all and let the DoD sort
> 'em out." Like I said; humans are arrogant (and are raised on SF movies
> where the aliens are always Evil and Earth/America is always victorious).
> They may well be arrogant enough to assume they can defend Earth themselves,
> without help from aliens.
Gort! Klaatu barada nikto!
Aaron F. Bourque
bah! Bah, sez I!
If there are female Transformers, then there may be *lesbian*
Transformers!
Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque...
David Willis
"Aaron F. Bourque" <aaronb...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1117738964....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> If there are female Transformers, then there may be *lesbian*
> Transformers!
Best argument I've seen yet.
--David
www.shortpacked.com
www.itswalky.com
Grebo
>If there are female Transformers, then there may
>be *lesbian* Transformers!
Hell yeah!!!!
Actually, Im sure there's already been at least one dojinshi done about
this in Japan...
Grebo
(I wanna see it!)
Ethan Hammond
news:1117686138.1...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> Now as for Tracks, well, if TFs really have the instinct to look for
> the opposite gender left over from organic days then why not still have
> the homosexual instincts? I'm suggesting that the spark DOES include
> gender and consequently homosexuality.
Tracks is vain and stuck up, but not gay.
Switchback
> Tracks is vain and stuck up, but not gay.
To be honest I'm still kinda neutral on that point.
But, still, I've heard some pretty convincing arguments about it.
Here's my take on it.
Mind that this is based off of the "Make Tracks" episode and NOT after
Tracks from the comic--who doesn't seem to show any gay tendencies.
a. He fits the 80s gay stereo-type REMARKABLY well and even has the
right voice.
b. It was not uncommon for television of that era to spend entire
episodes crusading for gay acceptance. "Tracks is cool and he's gay,
so..."
c. It was indirect so as not to pose questions from younger viewers.
d. The guy's name is RAOUL. That's a stereo-typical fantasy "pool boy"
name on one side and a gay guy name on the other side. No winning,
sorry.
Then on the opposite end of the spectrum:
a. He was, yeah, conceited and vain.
b. The syntax of the episode actually struck me as more of an 80's
"buddy movie" similar to "Lethal Weapon." Most of the gayness can be
discounted just by that.
c. It didn't need to be indirect since he isn't gay.
d. Well. Raoul... uh. I apologize for any Raouls who might be reading
this, really.
I'll have to watch the episode again to really form my opinion. My
original point was that TFs could possibly have gays if that whole
"marriage" theory means anything.
-Switchback ;)
(I've been here a week and I'm already putting my nose where it doesn't
belong...) ... (don't take that out of context) ...
Ethan Hammond
> Ethan Hammond wrote:
>
> I'll have to watch the episode again to really form my opinion. My
> original point was that TFs could possibly have gays if that whole
> "marriage" theory means anything.
Well his voice action (Wally Burr?) said he was going for a Harvard
lockjaw accent with Tracks.
Mark Brown
news:1117668727.7...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Mark Brown wrote:
*SNIP*
>> But human governments have proven that they tend to be arrogant, greedy,
>> distrustful, and untrustworthy (especially those who believe that God is
>> on
>> their side). I can't believe that the USA (just as a random example)
>> would
>> agree to sit back and stay out of the Autobots' way, allowing them to do
>> whatever they decided was necessary.
> I don't think they would. And given Optimus Prime's standard beliefs
> I'd say he'd offer them tech to help them protect themselves, though
> he'd strongly encourage them to stay out of the way.
Yes, and then he'd find the tech turned against his own men. Or the
increased tech would make the humans into priority targets (as opposed to
targets of opportunity).
>> Bear in mind that any government that managed to capture and master
>> Cybertronian tech would jump several centuries ahead of anyone else.
>> We're
>> talking global economic and technological domination. The Superpowers
>> (USA &
>> Soviet Union in the G1 'verse) would want it because they don't trust
>> anyone
>> else (or each other) with the big toys, and everyone else would want it
>> to
>> join (or overthrow) the Superpowers.
> Of course what if the TF's jsut go to the UN and offer it to everyone,
> to a degree. If eveyone has it it doesn't shift the power to much.
> And they don't have no stinkin' Prime Directive.
No, but Optimus is smart enough to know how humans would use that
technology --to kill other humans. He's as familiar with the 'loaded gun"
concept as anyone. He's not going to risk escalating any of the hundreds of
ongoing conflicts on Earth. Besides, the UN is not "everyone." What about
the non-member nations, or the active enemies? Or the UN members who're
willing to throw out UN regulations when they become inconvenient?
See, the nature of an arms race (or a cold war) is that no one's going to
risk attacking because they'll be wiped out in retaliation. But there are
forces on Earth who are ~willing~ to sacrifice themselves. Note the ready
availability of suicide bombers. What if one of them gets their hands on
stolen Cybertronian tech?
>> If nothing else, I'd expect black ops projects, aimed at scavenging and
>> reverse-engineering fallen TFs (like the ones seen in DW's G1 ongoing,
>> with
>> Scourge). Probably aimed at developing anti-TF weapons in case the aliens
>> ever violate government territory. If we assume that the human
>> technologists
>> are competent, then it could become very dangerous for TFs very quickly.
> There are likely to be secret projects to go deeper and to insure what
> they're being given is on the level.
Or to sabotage the "gifts" given to enemy nations, or to undermine the TFs
themselves and ~take~ the things they're not offering.
>> Likely the EDC would adopt a position of "kill 'em all and let the DoD
>> sort
>> 'em out." Like I said; humans are arrogant (and are raised on SF movies
>> where the aliens are always Evil and Earth/America is always victorious).
>> They may well be arrogant enough to assume they can defend Earth
>> themselves,
>> without help from aliens.
> What about Star Trek?
Star Trek, despite its determinedly multicultural lesson doesn't practice
what it preaches; it's too American in model (America isn't multicultural,
it's unicultural; the iconic "melting pot" where everybody boils down to the
same thing).
The Federation is a vast interstellar government, thought up by humans,
governed from Earth, comprising dozens of races on hundreds of worlds, who
are only granted entry when they agree to think, act, and dress like humans.
Also, note the crew compositions of every ship we see on screen: 90% human,
8% human-like aliens, 2% token wierd alien who secretly ~wants~ to be human
(T'Pol, Phlox, Spock, Data, Worf, Odo, Rom, Nog, etc).
> And Star Wars, where the human(or at least human
> looking) characters have non-human allies.
Who rarely contribute anything useful on screen. I know about the
novels/comics/games/whatever, but for the ~casual~ viewer, the humans are
always centre stage, and are always responsible for the ultimate victory.
> And one battle from the
> TF's would show they were wrong.
And would cost hundreds of innocent lives, which would be on Prime's hands
if he allowed things to get that far.
The only ~responsible~ choice for Optimus would be to keep a low profile and
make sure that as much of the risk as possible falls on the Autobots (and on
himself in particular).
*SNIP*
>> If Megatron has only a handful of reliable soldiers, he's not going to
>> risk
>> an open assault on what could be over a hundred Autobots, and a human
>> army
>> that may have access to TF-killing weaponry. His first priority would be
>> gathering intelligence (how many Autobots are here? What sort of
>> resources
>> do the humans have? How can I get more Decepticon reinforcements?)
> Well, then that would be another departure from G1, where the
> Decepticons seemed to have the advantage on Cybertron. An Autobot
> blockade would suggest they did, or at least the war was even.
Not necessarily; maybe blockading Earth is all the Autobots can manage. The
war on Cybertron is effectively lost, so the Autobots throw everything they
have left into defending Earth, luring Megatron here in an attempt to make
it a turning point (get Megatron away from Cybertron and he's vulnerable;
kill him and the Decepticons will fracture).
> As for
> gathering intelligence: Soundwave could hack all of Earth's computers
> without being on the planet. Just tap a gov't satelite and trace it
> back to where it sends it's data.
Which is why the Autobots would struggle to keep Soundwave as away from
Earth as possible. They'd probably be wise to hack the Earth's networks
themselves, to set up firewalls and alarms that the humans can't.
Besides, Earth's computers won't be the deciding factor; it's the human
element that Soundwave wouldn't be able to hack. Humans tend to be
unpredictable, stubborn, foolish, and suicidally brave.
Mark
"Very brave. Almost certainly futile, but very human." --Lorien
Mark Brown
> Switchback wrote...
*SNIP*
>> "Yes, we mean no harm to your planet and only want peace. Here, look,
>> WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION, don't use 'em all on one rival nation!"
> Like the Negavator, jointly developed with the US military it seems.
> One wonders what the Soviets thought of that.
Who cares; they had Cosmos. He's worth a million Negavators.
Mark
"Only, y'know, not."
Kil - Michael McCarthy
> "Switchback" <scott...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1117906392....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > Ethan Hammond wrote:
> >
> > I'll have to watch the episode again to really form my opinion. My
> > original point was that TFs could possibly have gays if that whole
> > "marriage" theory means anything.
>
> Well his voice action (Wally Burr?) said he was going for a Harvard
> lockjaw accent with Tracks.
Michael McConnohie was Tracks's VA, and yeah, "Harvard Lockjaw" is the
voice, an exaggerated stereotypical upper-crust New England blue blood
type of thing.
Mark Brown
*SNIP*
> Now what I'm wondering about is, exactly what was that kiss a prelude
> to? Where is this whole relationship eventually going? If Grebo's
> theory is at all accurate about the Transformers being originally
> organic (which makes some sense to me) then maybe the gender is simply
> a part of their original nature that's left over. Even without sex
> there's still some notions of romance right? But that doesn't really
> go over well with Orion's "jealousy." Why be jealous if there is no
> other end then romance? I really don't want to sink to the "tfs doit"
> level. In "The Search for Alpha Trion" Optimus jumpstarts Elita. It's
> possible that there is some sort of union--let's call it "marriage"--in
> which two transformers make their "software compatible" and adjust
> their adapters--let's call them "genitals"--wait, scratch that--so that
> they can interface. Maybe for some reason only two transformers can do
> this with eachother and it's desirable for both members. It would
> explain their relationships as they would have to be rather attached to
> eachother to make such a decision and it would justify the actual
> difference in female mechanics. So a kiss is a sign of affection
> between two robots who are considering this "marriage" as I so deem it.
> No sex, just gender.
Why does a physical relationship have to be sex?
The one fundamental aspect of all human relationships (yeah, I know TFs
aren't human, just bear with me for a bit) is ~contact.~ Not just physical
contact, but a feeling of connectedness. That's why we communicate, and
create art, and seek fame/wealth/power, and have sex, and imagine Supreme
Beings who give a crap about us and our lives --because it makes us a part
of something ~outside~ ourselves, something ~greater.~ It makes us
significant. Just think about how, however brief and meaningless your life
might be, you can, if even for a ~moment,~ influence someone else's life,
someone else's internal world.
Humans are social creatures, and we ~need~ social interaction to stay sane.
Without it, we become mentally unstable, paranoid, delusional. . . something
~less~ than we are. Loneliness is to be avoided. Somehow, some things just
become bearable when there's someone with you, someone who values you,
someone who ~trusts~ you.
Why must TFs be any different? So they don't have sex, but they do seek that
feeling of being a part of something, that feeling that someone ~else~
considers them important, strong, wise, or beautiful. They would naturally
want some way to express those feelings --kissing, holding hands, touching
fingertips (a "Vulcan kiss").
Holding hands is a big one --you're literally anchored to someone, trusting
that they won't let you slip away, and affirming that you don't want ~them~
to go away. Think of Tigatron and Airrazor when the Vok abducted them. They
reached out for each other because (despite Tigatron's declarations that he
"works better alone") they didn't want to be alone anymore. Whatever the Vok
had to throw at them, they could face it as long as they were together.
By the same token, they would naturally become jealous when it seems like
that relationship could come apart --they worry that the person who values
them will change her/his mind, and start prefering someone else. Say, Hot
Rod flirts with Arcee, who starts to fall for him, but then he gets the
Matrix and focusses more and more of his attention on being Rodimus. Arcee
will follow him for a while (trying to win back his attention [and possibly
resenting Primus/the Allspark, or whatever she takes the Matrix to
symbolize]), before finally giving up on him and realizing that Springer has
been protecting/following her all this time and she never noticed.
The Allspark, where the souls of individual Transformers are merged together
("Till All Are One"), is a perfect basis. Anybody here know _Evangelion_
(well, I'm not convinced anybody ~knows~ Evangelion [possibly including
Hideaki], but has anybody seen it)? Remember the concept of "Heaven"
expressed in End_of_Eva? I'm saying pretty much what Rei said; Everyone is
trying to get ~back~ to something, to literally being ~connected~ beyond any
physical contact. Sex is only a weak and instinctive attempt to return to
that total body/soul/mind fusion. If some part of the spark "remembers"
being in the Allspark, that's the only "sex drive" TFs would need.
I'm not convinced the kiss was leading to anything; I'm more interested in
where it was coming from.
> Now as for Tracks, well, if TFs really have the instinct to look for
> the opposite gender left over from organic days then why not still have
> the homosexual instincts? I'm suggesting that the spark DOES include
> gender and consequently homosexuality.
Well, ignoring the fact that Tracks' gayness is a fan suggestion (not
complaining; I laughed as hard at "Tracks Eye For The Brawn Guy" as anyone),
I'm actually surprised there isn't ~more~ "homosexuality" (or at least
"homoeroticism," since there's no real "sexuality" as such). Well, not
surprised, since humans (especially American humans) are insanely obsessed
with sex, and persist in thinking of TFs as kiddie-fare. More
"intellectually intrigued," I guess.
I'm suggesting that there's no ~basis~ for TF gender; no evidence that
females are designed or function fundamentally differently than males.
Everything we see is behavioural (and mild enough to be dismissed as
artistic anthropomorphism). Maybe it's self-correcting; TFs whose
personalities tend toward one "gender" or another have themselves formatted
into appropriate bodies. TF heterosexuality is the illusion, since TFs don't
have physical sexes (just bodies that they choose to wear) --~all~ TF
relationships are homosexual.
If there's no stigma/advantage attached to being "male" or "female" (as
there is on Earth, however far our gender politics have come), then why
wouldn't the TFs who're attracted to "male" TFs have themselves reformatted
into "female" bodies? Heck, maybe that's it: "female" TFs are signalling (by
their choice of body type) that they want a relationship with another mech
(who looks "male" by way of being "default"). This would explain why the
femmebots tend to act more nurturing and compassionate than the males (and
conversely, why the males seem to ~react~ to the femmes, yet don't seem
particularly upset/listless/frustrated when there're none around [no
testosterone]); it's the identity they've chosen to form (or possibly just
feel more comfortable in).
Incarnation is habit-forming (this is why even beings who believe in an
afterlife often fear death). It's possible that after a century or so, the
"female" TF just starts thinking of "herself" as female, and has no real
reason to return to being male. Residual self-image, like why Neo looks like
Thomas Anderson (if he really wanted to, he could be a shape-shifter inside
the Matrix).
> If I'm not mistaken, sparks include the entire personality of the bot
> and all his memories--unless it returns to Primus.
Which is my problem; The spark (in the chest) isn't the neural net (in the
head). If the spark does all that, then what purpose does the CPU serve?
We've seen disembodied heads capable of thought, perception, and speech, and
we've seen free-floating sparks capable of the same.
Personally, I think the spark-as-mind is accidental. When new sparks are
first brought online, they serve as consciousness, and maybe personality
(I'm not decided as to how personality works, whether it's native or imposed
by experience. Perhaps a fresh spark is a tabula rasa, and it just ~allows~
a TF to ~develop~ personality from their experiences). The CPU/brain houses
the knowledge, memories, AI code, etc. As time passes though, the AI core
~informs~ the spark, writing itself into the spark's own energy-signature. I
don't think this is intentional --possibly this is the very glitch that
allowed the TFs the free will to rebel against the Quints.
The AIs were programmed with a loyalty block [Asimov's Three Laws], so the
mecha ~couldn't~ rebel. At first, it worked great, but after a few
years/decades/centuries' worth of data gets backed up in the memory buffer,
the spark starts carrying more and more processor load, until suddenly that
programming block just doesn't work anymore, and you start getting folks
like A3 and Beta. Of course, these mecha have been extant so long that
they've stopped being "backed up" regularly, so the Quintessons never
realize anything's amiss until the shooting starts.
*SNIP*
> As for Optimus giving humans technology? Obviously it happened if you
> watch any post-movie episode, but you wouldn't think he would've right?
*SNIP*
Yeah. I'm convinced there's a story there (that DW was planning to tell,
apparently).
Mark
"Sometimes we build walls not to protect ourselves, but to see who cares
enough to tear them down."
bar...@shentel.net
Mark Brown wrote:
> <bar...@shentel.net> wrote in message
> news:1117668727.7...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > Mark Brown wrote:
> *SNIP*
> >> But human governments have proven that they tend to be arrogant, greedy,
> >> distrustful, and untrustworthy (especially those who believe that God is
> >> on
> >> their side). I can't believe that the USA (just as a random example)
> >> would
> >> agree to sit back and stay out of the Autobots' way, allowing them to do
> >> whatever they decided was necessary.
> > I don't think they would. And given Optimus Prime's standard beliefs
> > I'd say he'd offer them tech to help them protect themselves, though
> > he'd strongly encourage them to stay out of the way.
>
> Yes, and then he'd find the tech turned against his own men. Or the
> increased tech would make the humans into priority targets (as opposed to
> targets of opportunity).
Humans control the energy sources. So humans are already priority
targets. Attacking the Autobots would be a great way to cut off the
supply of Cybertronian tech and possibly get the entire planet of
Cybertron set against them. Plus there's the fact that human soldiers
would die fighting Transformers while if you let the Bot's fight the
Cons then human casualties would be limited.
>
> >> Bear in mind that any government that managed to capture and master
> >> Cybertronian tech would jump several centuries ahead of anyone else.
> >> We're
> >> talking global economic and technological domination. The Superpowers
> >> (USA &
> >> Soviet Union in the G1 'verse) would want it because they don't trust
> >> anyone
> >> else (or each other) with the big toys, and everyone else would want it
> >> to
> >> join (or overthrow) the Superpowers.
> > Of course what if the TF's jsut go to the UN and offer it to everyone,
> > to a degree. If eveyone has it it doesn't shift the power to much.
> > And they don't have no stinkin' Prime Directive.
>
> No, but Optimus is smart enough to know how humans would use that
> technology --to kill other humans. He's as familiar with the 'loaded gun"
> concept as anyone. He's not going to risk escalating any of the hundreds of
> ongoing conflicts on Earth. Besides, the UN is not "everyone." What about
> the non-member nations, or the active enemies? Or the UN members who're
> willing to throw out UN regulations when they become inconvenient?
Frankly most nations seem to be members of the UN, even if they're not
in good standing or they're protesting. Besides when we developed
atomic weapons we managed to avoid using them on each other for fear of
wiping out everyone. These would theoretically be just like that.
>
> See, the nature of an arms race (or a cold war) is that no one's going to
> risk attacking because they'll be wiped out in retaliation. But there are
> forces on Earth who are ~willing~ to sacrifice themselves. Note the ready
> availability of suicide bombers. What if one of them gets their hands on
> stolen Cybertronian tech?
Are ytou kidding? That stuff would be so ultra top secret. THe only
thing I could think of becoming public would be energon. Since it's
apparently very clean and since any fuel source can be converted to it,
you wouldn't have the problem of wiping out the oil industry.
>
>
> >> Likely the EDC would adopt a position of "kill 'em all and let the DoD
> >> sort
> >> 'em out." Like I said; humans are arrogant (and are raised on SF movies
> >> where the aliens are always Evil and Earth/America is always victorious).
> >> They may well be arrogant enough to assume they can defend Earth
> >> themselves,
> >> without help from aliens.
> > What about Star Trek?
>
> Star Trek, despite its determinedly multicultural lesson doesn't practice
> what it preaches; it's too American in model (America isn't multicultural,
> it's unicultural; the iconic "melting pot" where everybody boils down to the
> same thing).
>
> The Federation is a vast interstellar government, thought up by humans,
> governed from Earth, comprising dozens of races on hundreds of worlds, who
> are only granted entry when they agree to think, act, and dress like humans.
> Also, note the crew compositions of every ship we see on screen: 90% human,
> 8% human-like aliens, 2% token wierd alien who secretly ~wants~ to be human
> (T'Pol, Phlox, Spock, Data, Worf, Odo, Rom, Nog, etc).
T'Pol and Phlox were quite happy with what they were. Spock and Worf
wanted to find the proper place for themselves, since they were sort of
in between worlds. Odo, well I don't know much about the character,
but he wanted to find out what he was. I thought Rom and Nog, just
kind of wanted to fit in and matter.
>
> > And Star Wars, where the human(or at least human
> > looking) characters have non-human allies.
>
> Who rarely contribute anything useful on screen. I know about the
> novels/comics/games/whatever, but for the ~casual~ viewer, the humans are
> always centre stage, and are always responsible for the ultimate victory.
Yoda, Jabba, Chewie and more.
>
> > And one battle from the
> > TF's would show they were wrong.
>
> And would cost hundreds of innocent lives, which would be on Prime's hands
> if he allowed things to get that far.
>
> The only ~responsible~ choice for Optimus would be to keep a low profile and
> make sure that as much of the risk as possible falls on the Autobots (and on
> himself in particular).
That assumes the Decepticons aren't very public. A shadow war might be
fine for infiltration but for Energon gathering they need to be more
public or have a lot more Octanes.
>
> *SNIP*
> >> If Megatron has only a handful of reliable soldiers, he's not going to
> >> risk
> >> an open assault on what could be over a hundred Autobots, and a human
> >> army
> >> that may have access to TF-killing weaponry. His first priority would be
> >> gathering intelligence (how many Autobots are here? What sort of
> >> resources
> >> do the humans have? How can I get more Decepticon reinforcements?)
> > Well, then that would be another departure from G1, where the
> > Decepticons seemed to have the advantage on Cybertron. An Autobot
> > blockade would suggest they did, or at least the war was even.
>
> Not necessarily; maybe blockading Earth is all the Autobots can manage. The
> war on Cybertron is effectively lost, so the Autobots throw everything they
> have left into defending Earth, luring Megatron here in an attempt to make
> it a turning point (get Megatron away from Cybertron and he's vulnerable;
> kill him and the Decepticons will fracture).
Luring Megatron to a world where sentient lives are at risk is
anti-Autobot. Especially with one of Saturn's moons having an ocean of
natural gas, Mercury would probably be a prime place for gathering
solar power and there are other places in the solar system that could
be used for gathering energy. Megatron may be a vicious dictator but
even he knows gaining energy without expending it is the better deal.
>
> > As for
> > gathering intelligence: Soundwave could hack all of Earth's computers
> > without being on the planet. Just tap a gov't satelite and trace it
> > back to where it sends it's data.
>
> Which is why the Autobots would struggle to keep Soundwave as away from
> Earth as possible. They'd probably be wise to hack the Earth's networks
> themselves, to set up firewalls and alarms that the humans can't.
True. Blaster could do that as well.
>
> Besides, Earth's computers won't be the deciding factor; it's the human
> element that Soundwave wouldn't be able to hack. Humans tend to be
> unpredictable, stubborn, foolish, and suicidally brave.
Oh, that's true. But he could take weapons off line, cripple
communications make sure vital supplies were out of place. Brave
individuals would find themselves without the tools to succeed.
JLB
Kil - Michael McCarthy
> Frankly most nations seem to be members of the UN,
Currently, it's just Vatican City and Taiwan who are non-members.
Unless one is granting recognition as a state to disputed places like
Wesetern Sahara and the Palestinian territories.
> T'Pol and Phlox were quite happy with what they were. Spock and Worf
> wanted to find the proper place for themselves, since they were sort of
> in between worlds. Odo, well I don't know much about the character,
> but he wanted to find out what he was.
Odo didn't really want to be humanoid at all, hence his returning to
the Great Link in the finale.
Kil - Michael McCarthy
> Well, ignoring the fact that Tracks' gayness is a fan suggestion (not
> complaining; I laughed as hard at "Tracks Eye For The Brawn Guy" as anyone),
Which wasn't really about Tracks being "gay" (okay, some of the jokes
were) it was more about his being vain and overly concerned with
outward appearances.
> If there's no stigma/advantage attached to being "male" or "female" (as
> there is on Earth, however far our gender politics have come), then why
> wouldn't the TFs who're attracted to "male" TFs have themselves reformatted
> into "female" bodies?
Okay, so are there any actual instances of Transformers voluntarily
adopting new bodies that aren't based on the adoption of a new
_alternate_ form? After all, it's the _root_ mode, the robot form of
some (though not all, to be sure) female TFs that appears feminine.
> Incarnation is habit-forming (this is why even beings who believe in an
> afterlife often fear death). It's possible that after a century or so, the
> "female" TF just starts thinking of "herself" as female, and has no real
> reason to return to being male. Residual self-image, like why Neo looks like
> Thomas Anderson (if he really wanted to, he could be a shape-shifter inside
> the Matrix).
I still see no reason whatsoever to think anything but that female
Transformers are female from birth.
Mark Brown
> Mark Brown wrote...
>> Or a voluntary reformatting (the BW Maximals & Preds upon first arriving
>> on
>> Earth,
> The Beast Warriors adoption of organic beast modes was a necessity for
> operating in the enviroment they found themselves in, and so not really
> a voluntary decision. And I don't know if they got to choose their own
> animal forms or had them assigned by their computers, or what.
"They're fast. You chose a good form." --Primal to Cheetor, Beast Wars
(first ep)
This implies that the other Maximals on the Axalon had choices, at least. I
would assume the same for the Predacons (since both crews appeared to remain
conscious during the landing, which I'd guess would be the deciding factor).
*SNIP*
> I'll grant that are situations where body alterations are easily and
> voluntarily done, but I don't think any of them have been for cosmetic
> reasons rather than for mission-specific requirements.
But it raises the question, if it's possible (and fairly easy), why ~not~ do
it for cosmetic purposes (since we've seen that TFs [cough]Tracks[/cough] do
have aesthetic concepts)?
>> I was mainly going by the fact that we've never seen any TF express any
>> dissatisfaction with their bodies. Well, except for that comicverse
>> Dinobot
>> [was it Snarl or Sludge who hated being a dinosaur?]
> Megatron in "Microbots" spoke of the good ol' days, back before he and
> the other 'Cons had to go around in their ugly Earth disguises.
Okay, I forgot about that one, but again that would be a case of special
circumstances; the Decepticons ~need~ their Earth disguises. Plus Megs was
drunk at that point, wasn't he?
> Yet even after they had relocated back to Cyberton in 2005, not a one
> of them ditched their Earth mode.
Well, until they were killed off/forcibly reformatted by Unicron. I wouldn't
expect the animators to design new alt modes for less than half a movie.
Same "artistic license" as MTMTE; with the Earth-style kibble on their
Cybertronian bodies.
>> and Waspinator
>> ("Waspinator sick of being bug.").
> ???
> I don't recall Waspy ever saying that. Do you know what episode that's
> supposedly from?
I just have the mental soundbyte. It could be from the finale (when he
rebelled and got shot mid-rant by Inferno and Quickstrike), or possibly from
BM when his personality reasserted itself (and he implied that he'd ~asked~
to be made into Thrust).
>> > Any examples of this casual-as-a-haircut body changing?
>> As above: the adoption of alt-modes in everything except G1 seemed pretty
>> voluntary (what we saw of it, anyway).
> I saw Teletraan-1 repair Skywarp and Optimus Prime, and in doing so
> alter them to transform into an F-15 and an Earth truck. Neither of
> them had any say in this process.
Yeah, but everything ~outside~ of G1.
BW: As stated earlier, it's suggested that the Axalon & Darkside crews got
to pick their beast modes. Likely the stasis-pods were one-use (I'd imagine
reformatting to take a lot of power), and after meeting up with their
respective sides, their bases were probably on low-power mode, focussed more
on keeping them alive than with tinkering with perfectly good modes.
BM: Logical progressions from beast modes, except for the Vehicons, who
explicitly weren't given a choice (except for WaspyThrust, apparently).
Evil-Rhinox seemed perfectly happy with his Tankorr body. We don't see any
big post-technorganic reformattings (just the spark powerups), so it's
possible that once reformatted into technorganic bodies, TFs can no longer
be reconfigured. Megatron into Noble/Savage and the drone were special
cases, as he just plain didn't have access to the tech for N/S. He
specifically makes reference to lacking the time to design a new body (and
needing a template) before assuming the Optimal Optimus body.
RiD: We find out (after the fact) that SkidZ voluntarily selected Augie
Cahnay's racer as his alt-mode, and can extrapolate that those Autobots &
Predacons who were conscious when they reached Earth did the same. The
exceptions would be the RiD Decepticons (Scourge & the Commandos), who were
in stasis-pods and were assigned altmodes (by the Preds) before being
activated.
Armada: Optimus voluntarily scans the semi (okay, there wasn't anything else
around, but the point stands), and the Street Action Team extrapolate their
forms from Alexis, Carlos, & Rad's gear. IIRC the first-wave Decepticons do
the same. Then we get into the characters who just show up, and who aren't
shown selecting alt-modes. Anything could go for them.
Energon: No alt-mode selection was shown, Demolisher, Cyclonus(Snowcat), and
Tidal Wave(Mirage), were forcibly reformatted by Megatron, who was himself
recreated by (apparently) Unicron, while Starscream's new form was given by
Alpha-Q (so none of them really had a choice). Doesn't Rodimus describe
Arcee being "created" to lead the Omnicons? (I'm asking any lurkers, I
honestly can't recall the line and have been trying to forget the episodes.)
Galaxy Force: Jetfire selected or received his alt-mode off-screen, then did
a Sky-spy impression (which I sincerely hope Scott MacNeill has some fun
with in the Cybertron dub ;) ), bringing the data back to Cybertron, where
the Autobots seemed to pick their forms from his holo-catalogue (seemed to,
because they didn't visibly change forms, and already had the vehicle-mode
kibble on them). Apparently, the kids contribute some ideas for the
late-comers as they trickle in (including a Minicon streetlight), resources
on Earth being somewhat tight for the refugees.
*SNIP*
> But I don't see any reason to assume that it's some "choice" at all.
> What evidence is there that Arcee or Beta or Moonracer or BlackArachnia
> or Falcia or Road Rage or Glyph or the Paradron Medic _chose_ to be
> female?
I'll admit that we don't, but I think there's enough implicit evidence to
suggest that they didn't choose to be male when they had the option (BA, as
far as we know, never had the choice until she'd already put far too much
work into being female to abandon it).
> Personal theory/speculation time: I have it in my head (which follows
> the cartoon-verse) that Vector Sigma has "male" as it's default
> setting, but if you request that It give your robot a cybernetic
> personality that it is "female," then that's what you get -- a robot
> who _is_ female, right down to her spark/laser core.
Possible, even likely. But it returns to the initial question: what does it
~mean~ for TFs to be "female" or "male" when there's no real ~point~ to
their sexual dimorphism?
>> There's nothing to indicate that male and female TFs are programmed or
>> behave (or think) differently (as humans do, influenced by testosterone
>> and
>> estrogen, respectively).
> When Ariel kisses Orion Pax on the cheek and says "don't mind him, he's
> just the jealous type" after he called her his girlfriend, they are
> behaving very much like a human male and a human female.
>
> Same thing when BlackArachnia flirts with Quickstrike to get him to do
> her work for her, or when Cheetor drools over her, or when she and
> Silverbolt kiss and do... whatever else they did.
*SNIP*
You may be right, but it's hard to tell how much is artistic license put in
by the human writers. Either way, I've done some theorizing (and rethought
some of my theories) down here: news:42a31...@news.cybersurf.net
Mark
"Has no idea what that link will do when clicked, but it's the Google
address of my post."
Kil - Michael McCarthy
> "They're fast. You chose a good form." --Primal to Cheetor, Beast Wars
> (first ep)
Indeed. Just watched that again yesterday. So they did choose from
among the animals scanned by the computer.
> Okay, I forgot about that one, but again that would be a case of special
> circumstances; the Decepticons ~need~ their Earth disguises. Plus Megs was
> drunk at that point, wasn't he?
I don't know about the 'Cons needing their Earth disguises, as they
rarely used them as such, except for Soundwave and the tapes on
occasion, and Megatron that time he hid inside a guitar case.
> > Yet even after they had relocated back to Cyberton in 2005, not a one
> > of them ditched their Earth mode.
>
> Well, until they were killed off/forcibly reformatted by Unicron. I wouldn't
> expect the animators to design new alt modes for less than half a movie.
> Same "artistic license" as MTMTE; with the Earth-style kibble on their
> Cybertronian bodies.
I don't think it's the same thing at all. "Artistic license" shouldn't
be used to dimiss any old thing you want, IMO. In the case of MTMTE, it
doesn't make any kind of sense for everyone on Cybertron to look like
they change into Earth vehicles that don't exist yet, so I can see
doing it for that.
But as there's no such logical impossibility involved in the
Decepticons keeping their Earth forms even after relocating back to
Cybertron in TF:TM, I see no reason to dismiss it.
> >> and Waspinator
> >> ("Waspinator sick of being bug.").
> > ???
> > I don't recall Waspy ever saying that. Do you know what episode that's
> > supposedly from?
>
> I just have the mental soundbyte. It could be from the finale (when he
> rebelled and got shot mid-rant by Inferno and Quickstrike),
Nope. Sick of being evil, sick of being Predacon, sick of getting blown
to scrap... no complaints about his bug-ness there.
> or possibly from
> BM when his personality reasserted itself (and he implied that he'd ~asked~
> to be made into Thrust).
This, I don't know. I don't remember the exact dialouge, and I usually
try my best not to think about that whole... unpleasantness.
> Energon: No alt-mode selection was shown, Demolisher, Cyclonus(Snowcat), and
> Tidal Wave(Mirage), were forcibly reformatted by Megatron, who was himself
> recreated by (apparently) Unicron, while Starscream's new form was given by
> Alpha-Q (so none of them really had a choice). Doesn't Rodimus describe
> Arcee being "created" to lead the Omnicons? (I'm asking any lurkers, I
> honestly can't recall the line and have been trying to forget the episodes.)
Optimus said that Arcee was the first female Omnicon to evolve because
of energon, or some such gibberish.
> Galaxy Force: Jetfire selected or received his alt-mode off-screen, then did
> a Sky-spy impression (which I sincerely hope Scott MacNeill has some fun
> with in the Cybertron dub ;)
According to reports out of a recent anime convention, which had voice
actors like the three Dobson brothers in attendance, Scott McNeil won't
be playing Jetfire in Cybertron, it'll be Brian Drummond.
> > Personal theory/speculation time: I have it in my head (which follows
> > the cartoon-verse) that Vector Sigma has "male" as it's default
> > setting, but if you request that It give your robot a cybernetic
> > personality that it is "female," then that's what you get -- a robot
> > who _is_ female, right down to her spark/laser core.
>
> Possible, even likely. But it returns to the initial question: what does it
> ~mean~ for TFs to be "female" or "male" when there's no real ~point~ to
> their sexual dimorphism?
I guess for me, I kind of don't care about the answer.
There are male Transformers, and there are a smaller number of female
Transformers.
Sometimes romantic relationships develop between them, just as they do
between humans, even though they do not reproduce sexually as we do and
thus lack the underlying biological drives.
But that's just The Way It Is.
The exact hows and the whys of it all tend not to concern me very much.
ShadowWing
<bar...@shentel.net> wrote
> Mark Brown wrote
> > Yes, and then he'd find the tech turned against his own men. Or the
> > increased tech would make the humans into priority targets (as opposed
to
> > targets of opportunity).
>
> Humans control the energy sources. So humans are already priority
> targets. Attacking the Autobots would be a great way to cut off the
> supply of Cybertronian tech and possibly get the entire planet of
> Cybertron set against them. Plus there's the fact that human soldiers
> would die fighting Transformers while if you let the Bot's fight the
> Cons then human casualties would be limited.
I don't think the humans are priority right now. Just what they have.
The Decepticons really don't care about the humans. The only exceptions
would be when they could use them against the Autobots, either as shields,
slaves, or rare other uses, like Berger or Archiville. Otherwise, they
usually just chase them off or ignore them. However, if they started packing
Robotech-style mecha, they would actually be a threat to the Decepticons.
> Frankly most nations seem to be members of the UN, even if they're not
> in good standing or they're protesting. Besides when we developed
> atomic weapons we managed to avoid using them on each other for fear of
> wiping out everyone. These would theoretically be just like that.
I'll try not to get started on the UN, since I'll start one doozy of an
OT sidebar with that long rant. As to the atomic weapons, imagine if Al
Quieda or Hamas had the atom bomb. (As it is certain authorities are worried
about "dirty bombs".) For that matter, what if Hitler had the bomb back in
WW2, or anyone in the first World War? America as a nation usually cares
more about individual rights than some other countries. (Not a unique
philosophy on our planet, but still not the viewpoint of every nation,
"official" or "disputed".)
> > See, the nature of an arms race (or a cold war) is that no one's going
to
> > risk attacking because they'll be wiped out in retaliation. But there
are
> > forces on Earth who are ~willing~ to sacrifice themselves. Note the
ready
> > availability of suicide bombers. What if one of them gets their hands on
> > stolen Cybertronian tech?
>
> Are ytou kidding? That stuff would be so ultra top secret. THe only
> thing I could think of becoming public would be energon. Since it's
> apparently very clean and since any fuel source can be converted to it,
> you wouldn't have the problem of wiping out the oil industry.
I think Energon should be the only thing the Autobots could offer. Not
that it would stop anti-fossil fuels advocates, mind you. They'd still
demand Energon not be made from oil, coal, or whatever, so it would still be
an argument on how to create enough Energon. But that's for another topic.
> > The Federation (in Star Trek) is a vast interstellar government, thought
up by humans,
> > governed from Earth, comprising dozens of races on hundreds of worlds,
who
> > are only granted entry when they agree to think, act, and dress like
humans.
> > Also, note the crew compositions of every ship we see on screen: 90%
human,
> > 8% human-like aliens, 2% token wierd alien who secretly ~wants~ to be
human
> > (T'Pol, Phlox, Spock, Data, Worf, Odo, Rom, Nog, etc).
Like Barnett said, only Data (much like Hound in the TFU) really wanted
to be human. The others just liked some of their perspectives. And we do
know there were non-Earth ships, like the Vulcan science ship that was
destroyed by--what was it, the Planet Killer?
> > > And Star Wars, where the human(or at least human
> > > looking) characters have non-human allies.
> >
> > Who rarely contribute anything useful on screen. I know about the
> > novels/comics/games/whatever, but for the ~casual~ viewer, the humans
are
> > always centre stage, and are always responsible for the ultimate
victory.
>
> Yoda, Jabba, Chewie and more.
In the prequel, most of the Jedi were non-human. It just saved
makeup/CGI to focus on the humans.
> > > And one battle from the TF's would show they were wrong.
> >
> > And would cost hundreds of innocent lives, which would be on Prime's
hands
> > if he allowed things to get that far.
> >
> > The only ~responsible~ choice for Optimus would be to keep a low profile
and
> > make sure that as much of the risk as possible falls on the Autobots
(and on
> > himself in particular).
That puts Prime's decision in the Marvel comics in a better light. I do
still see Roadhandler's point, though, that the Autobots really never took a
proactive stance against the Decepticons.
> Luring Megatron to a world where sentient lives are at risk is
> anti-Autobot.
It depends on how the writers go with this timeline. Remember in the
Marvel comics the Ark Autobots had little to no association with non-organic
life, to where even the Ark computer ignored them. (Except for the dinosaurs
in the Savage Land, but they're about the same size as a Transformer and are
rather hard to ignore.) The story could have Prime realising that the
organic lifeforms of Earth really are simular to the mechanical lifeforms of
Cybertron. Whether or not the humans decide the same about the Cybertrons is
another story.
--
updated before I die:
The Transformation Zone
http://pages.cthome.net/ShadowWing
Mark Brown
news:1118001330.7...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Mark Brown wrote:
*SNIP*
>> Yes, and then he'd find the tech turned against his own men. Or the
>> increased tech would make the humans into priority targets (as opposed to
>> targets of opportunity).
> Humans control the energy sources. So humans are already priority
> targets.
No, the energy sources are priority targets, as are the Autobots who're
actively trying to stop the 'cons. The humans are just potential
hostages/distractions/minor nuissances.
It's kinda like in a Convenience Store robbery; as long as any customers
stay down and listen to what the robbers say, they're not actual
targets/threats. It's about the cash and the police (when they arrive).
> Attacking the Autobots would be a great way to cut off the
> supply of Cybertronian tech and possibly get the entire planet of
> Cybertron set against them.
Realistically, yeah. But Governments (especially militaristic/nationalistic
ones) tend not to be realistic. They would ~think~ that attacking the
Autobots would be a great way to secure ~more~ Cybertronian tech, and
possibly conquer an alien planet in the process.
> Plus there's the fact that human soldiers
> would die fighting Transformers while if you let the Bot's fight the
> Cons then human casualties would be limited.
Limited, but uncontrolled, for no real payoff. Besides, it'd be the
~soldiers~ who would die, not the actual decision-makers (plus we've just
about perfected over-the-horizon "bloodless" combat/murder).
*SNIP*
>> No, but Optimus is smart enough to know how humans would use that
>> technology --to kill other humans. He's as familiar with the 'loaded gun"
>> concept as anyone. He's not going to risk escalating any of the hundreds
>> of
>> ongoing conflicts on Earth. Besides, the UN is not "everyone." What about
>> the non-member nations, or the active enemies? Or the UN members who're
>> willing to throw out UN regulations when they become inconvenient?
> Frankly most nations seem to be members of the UN, even if they're not
> in good standing or they're protesting.
Yes, but certain UN member nations have proven willing to ignore UN policy
when it suits them (see "USA").
> Besides when we developed
> atomic weapons we managed to avoid using them on each other for fear of
> wiping out everyone. These would theoretically be just like that.
Cuban missile crisis. Cold War.
And atomic weapons were considered to be a plateau --a ~balance~ of power
was established. With Cybertron tech, there's the possibility that there's
~more~ advanced tech, tech that would preclude the possibility of a
counter-attack (which was the main worry in the M.A.D. models of the Cold
War).
Dropping nukes on someone who may drop nukes on you is one thing. Dropping
nukes on someone when you have an inpenetrable forcefield over your cities
is something else entirely.
>> See, the nature of an arms race (or a cold war) is that no one's going to
>> risk attacking because they'll be wiped out in retaliation. But there are
>> forces on Earth who are ~willing~ to sacrifice themselves. Note the ready
>> availability of suicide bombers. What if one of them gets their hands on
>> stolen Cybertronian tech?
> Are ytou kidding? That stuff would be so ultra top secret.
Which means nothing to a sufficiently determined/well-connected terrorist.
*SNIP*
>> Star Trek, despite its determinedly multicultural lesson doesn't practice
>> what it preaches; it's too American in model (America isn't
>> multicultural,
>> it's unicultural; the iconic "melting pot" where everybody boils down to
>> the
>> same thing).
>>
>> The Federation is a vast interstellar government, thought up by humans,
>> governed from Earth, comprising dozens of races on hundreds of worlds,
>> who
>> are only granted entry when they agree to think, act, and dress like
>> humans.
>> Also, note the crew compositions of every ship we see on screen: 90%
>> human,
>> 8% human-like aliens, 2% token wierd alien who secretly ~wants~ to be
>> human
>> (T'Pol, Phlox, Spock, Data, Worf, Odo, Rom, Nog, etc).
> T'Pol and Phlox were quite happy with what they were.
They were aboard Enterprise to effectively become more like humans. Phlox
was unabashedly fascinated by them, and T'Pol's entire character arc was
centred around her humanization (the pecan pie, the human accent, the
resigning her Vulcan commission and receiving an Earth one, the liaison with
Trip, etc).
> Spock and Worf
> wanted to find the proper place for themselves, since they were sort of
> in between worlds.
Which, in televised Star Trek, means becoming more human.
> Odo, well I don't know much about the character,
> but he wanted to find out what he was.
And when he did find out, he rejected his people in favour of the
Bajorans/Federation. He took a Bajoran lover, and even learned how to "eat"
human food to avoid making people uncomfortable.
> I thought Rom and Nog, just
> kind of wanted to fit in and matter.
Which they could've in Ferengi society (as Quark did). Instead they embraced
the more "proper" values of the Bajorans and an anthropocentric Starfleet.
>> > And Star Wars, where the human(or at least human
>> > looking) characters have non-human allies.
>> Who rarely contribute anything useful on screen. I know about the
>> novels/comics/games/whatever, but for the ~casual~ viewer, the humans are
>> always centre stage, and are always responsible for the ultimate victory.
> Yoda, Jabba, Chewie and more.
Versus Obi-Wan, Anakin, Padmé, Palpatine, Luke, Leia, and Han, who were
~lead~ characters. Yoda, R2, Chewie, and the rest were only supporting
characters, there to push the human heroes along their arc.
The only really nonhuman-friendly SF TV series is Farscape, and even then
the show's male lead is a human, and Aeryn is so close to being human she
might as well be.
*SNIP*
>> The only ~responsible~ choice for Optimus would be to keep a low profile
>> and
>> make sure that as much of the risk as possible falls on the Autobots (and
>> on
>> himself in particular).
> That assumes the Decepticons aren't very public. A shadow war might be
> fine for infiltration but for Energon gathering they need to be more
> public or have a lot more Octanes.
It would be tactically unwise of the Decepticons to start stockpiling
energon for Cybertron while the Autobots are still resisting them (yeah, I
know, but "tactically unwise" was G1 Megatron's middle name). Their first
priority would be to eliminate the Autobots as a threat, for which they
would need only a little energon at a time (enough for rations and to power
weapons/equipment). You underestimate how easily a few gigawatts of power
here and there can go unnoticed. An oil platform reports a 50% loss for a
few hours, a malfunction at a hydroelectric dam blacks out a city while UFOs
zip overhead (and ~nothing~ keeps a story ~out~ of the headlines like UFOs),
an Iraqi oil field comes under attack from vehicles flying Carbombyan
national colours, a Carbombyan oil field is destroyed by Iraqi retaliation,
etc.
The news reports wouldn't be any help at putting the dots together. The only
people who'd know are the ones already on the inside (or the UFO nuts that
nobody ever listens to ~anyway~).
*SNIP*
>> Not necessarily; maybe blockading Earth is all the Autobots can manage.
>> The
>> war on Cybertron is effectively lost, so the Autobots throw everything
>> they
>> have left into defending Earth, luring Megatron here in an attempt to
>> make
>> it a turning point (get Megatron away from Cybertron and he's vulnerable;
>> kill him and the Decepticons will fracture).
> Luring Megatron to a world where sentient lives are at risk is
> anti-Autobot. Especially with one of Saturn's moons having an ocean of
> natural gas, Mercury would probably be a prime place for gathering
> solar power and there are other places in the solar system that could
> be used for gathering energy. Megatron may be a vicious dictator but
> even he knows gaining energy without expending it is the better deal.
*SNIP*
Ah, but Earth offers something that none of the other planets have; ~cover~
(and hostages, if he's so inclined). Admittedly, tanks and fighter jets
aren't exactly unobtrusive, but they're less noticeable than they would be
trundling across the surface of Titan, Mercury, Ganymede, or Io.
The Autobots would probably prefer Megatron go for an "easier" target (they
probably already have hidden Autobases throughout the system), but once he
reaches the solar system, he'd gravitate toward Earth precisely because it
would make it difficult for the Autobots to counter him (even if it would
make it equally difficult for his own men; it's a strategic trade-off).
Mark
"I don't think this is wise."
"Kif, if there's one thing we don't need, it's your
'I-don't-think-this-is-wise' attitude." --Kif & Zap Brannigan (Futurama)
Mark Brown
> Mark Brown wrote...
>> Okay, I forgot about that one, but again that would be a case of special
>> circumstances; the Decepticons ~need~ their Earth disguises. Plus Megs
>> was
>> drunk at that point, wasn't he?
> I don't know about the 'Cons needing their Earth disguises, as they
> rarely used them as such, except for Soundwave and the tapes on
> occasion, and Megatron that time he hid inside a guitar case.
Well, the ~real~ reason being that that's what the toys looked like, and
Hasbro wasn't yet willing to pop for completely new molds.
>> > Yet even after they had relocated back to Cyberton in 2005, not a one
>> > of them ditched their Earth mode.
>> Well, until they were killed off/forcibly reformatted by Unicron. I
>> wouldn't
>> expect the animators to design new alt modes for less than half a movie.
>> Same "artistic license" as MTMTE; with the Earth-style kibble on their
>> Cybertronian bodies.
> I don't think it's the same thing at all. "Artistic license" shouldn't
> be used to dimiss any old thing you want, IMO. In the case of MTMTE, it
> doesn't make any kind of sense for everyone on Cybertron to look like
> they change into Earth vehicles that don't exist yet, so I can see
> doing it for that.
>
> But as there's no such logical impossibility involved in the
> Decepticons keeping their Earth forms even after relocating back to
> Cybertron in TF:TM, I see no reason to dismiss it.
It could just be that at that point they'd become used to them and wouldn't
change without a good reason (I can't picture Decepticons being as
fashion-conscious as certain Tracks --er, Autobots). They may also have been
holding out against future operations on Earth, or as a way to distinguish
themselves from all the other non-Earth mode Decepticons.
I can imagine Earth-modes being a sort of badge of honour among those who'd
fought alongside Megatron on Earth (as opposed to hanging out in space where
it was safe).
*SNIP*
>> Energon: No alt-mode selection was shown, Demolisher, Cyclonus(Snowcat),
>> and
>> Tidal Wave(Mirage), were forcibly reformatted by Megatron, who was
>> himself
>> recreated by (apparently) Unicron, while Starscream's new form was given
>> by
>> Alpha-Q (so none of them really had a choice). Doesn't Rodimus describe
>> Arcee being "created" to lead the Omnicons? (I'm asking any lurkers, I
>> honestly can't recall the line and have been trying to forget the
>> episodes.)
> Optimus said that Arcee was the first female Omnicon to evolve because
> of energon, or some such gibberish.
Yeah. Nothing really clear or reliable there, then (except possibly that
females are the next step in TF evolution).
*SNIP*
>> Possible, even likely. But it returns to the initial question: what does
>> it
>> ~mean~ for TFs to be "female" or "male" when there's no real ~point~ to
>> their sexual dimorphism?
> I guess for me, I kind of don't care about the answer.
>
> There are male Transformers, and there are a smaller number of female
> Transformers.
>
> Sometimes romantic relationships develop between them, just as they do
> between humans, even though they do not reproduce sexually as we do and
> thus lack the underlying biological drives.
>
> But that's just The Way It Is.
>
> The exact hows and the whys of it all tend not to concern me very much.
YMMV, of course. I just think it's interesting to speculate. World-building
is a hobby of mine.
Mark
"Currently trying to decide on an FTL technique for a (non-fanfic) story."
Kil - Michael McCarthy
> > I don't know about the 'Cons needing their Earth disguises, as they
> > rarely used them as such, except for Soundwave and the tapes on
> > occasion, and Megatron that time he hid inside a guitar case.
>
> Well, the ~real~ reason being that that's what the toys looked like, and
> Hasbro wasn't yet willing to pop for completely new molds.
I was talking in-universe, so *pfffffft* to that. : )
-Kil
Kil - Michael McCarthy
> >> No, but Optimus is smart enough to know how humans would use that
> >> technology --to kill other humans. He's as familiar with the 'loaded gun"
> >> concept as anyone. He's not going to risk escalating any of the hundreds
> >> of
> >> ongoing conflicts on Earth. Besides, the UN is not "everyone." What about
> >> the non-member nations, or the active enemies? Or the UN members who're
> >> willing to throw out UN regulations when they become inconvenient?
> > Frankly most nations seem to be members of the UN, even if they're not
> > in good standing or they're protesting.
>
> Yes, but certain UN member nations have proven willing to ignore UN policy
> when it suits them (see "USA").
"UN policy"? What does that even mean? Whatever it does, I doubt my
country is in any way unique in "ignoring" it.
> They were aboard Enterprise to effectively become more like humans. Phlox
> was unabashedly fascinated by them,
Being fascinated with something is not the same as wanting to become
that something. I saw no signs Phlox actually wanted to be human.
> > Odo, well I don't know much about the character,
> > but he wanted to find out what he was.
>
> And when he did find out, he rejected his people in favour of the
> Bajorans/Federation. He took a Bajoran lover, and even learned how to "eat"
> human food to avoid making people uncomfortable.
So, you must've missed the episode where Odo told Kira how much he
hated doing all that, how his humanoid form wasn't the real him at all,
and then at the end turned into a shimmering curtain of light and
err... surrounded... her.
And then in the finale he left her behind and joined the Great Link.
Come to think of it, did you miss the earlier part where the Founders
turned Odo into a human as a _punishment_?
Being more human was not something Odo ever wanted. At all. In the end,
he rejected it entirely and went to live with his own people.
Ehhhh, that's enough with the off-topic for me.
ObTFs: I want IDW to put out a Beast Wars comic set in Season One that
gives character focus to Scorponok and Terrorsaur.
-Kil
Switchback
*snip*
Realistically, yeah. But Governments (especially
militaristic/nationalistic
ones) tend not to be realistic. They would ~think~ that attacking the
Autobots would be a great way to secure ~more~ Cybertronian tech, and
possibly conquer an alien planet in the process.
*snip*
Hit the nail on the head, there, Mark Brown.
*snip*
Dropping nukes on someone who may drop nukes on you is one thing.
Dropping
nukes on someone when you have an inpenetrable forcefield over your
cities
is something else entirely.
*snip*
Either way you're needlessly playing with peoples' lives out of
cowardice.
*snip*
The only really nonhuman-friendly SF TV series is Farscape, and even
then
the show's male lead is a human, and Aeryn is so close to being human
she
might as well be.
*snip*
Why the *hell* is everyone so *freakin'* desperate to "kill all
humans"???
Lemme be straight with you. The reason for all the "pro-human" "bias"
in sci-fi is that its *written* by humans and since those aliens don't
*exist* there's no reason to make them our main characters beyond
geekish fantasy.
What annoys *me* is when the freakin' "god" characters start saying
that humans have the potential to become the "greatest of all
life-forms and even become a threat to us "q's"" Now *there's* a lack
in humility.
*snip*
Well, the ~real~ reason being that that's what the toys looked like,
and
Hasbro wasn't yet willing to pop for completely new molds.
*snip*
Wow, that about explains EVERYTHING that was ever wrong with TF
continuity.
You can end any discussion of TF with "its about the toys." Why talk
about the fiction at all if that argument can be considered valid?
*snip*
I can imagine Earth-modes being a sort of badge of honour among those
who'd
fought alongside Megatron on Earth (as opposed to hanging out in space
where
it was safe).
*snip*
Uh, WAR ON CYBERTRON, hello???
Badge of honor probably isn't too far off, though. If only for
fighting alongside their 'mighty leader.'
-Switchback ;)
Mark Brown
> Mark Brown's posts:
*SNIP*
>> The only really nonhuman-friendly SF TV series is Farscape, and even
> then
> the show's male lead is a human, and Aeryn is so close to being human
> she
> might as well be.
> *snip*
> Why the *hell* is everyone so *freakin'* desperate to "kill all
> humans"???
>
> Lemme be straight with you. The reason for all the "pro-human" "bias"
> in sci-fi is that its *written* by humans and since those aliens don't
> *exist* there's no reason to make them our main characters beyond
> geekish fantasy.
Or the fact that they're interesting ~characters,~ with interesting
motivations, shaped by interesting environments.
Going back to Farscape: Yeah, John & Aeryn were interesting people, but
after a while they got thin; I wanted to see Rygel returning to Hyneria to
claim his throne, or the D'Argo/Chiana/Jothee soap-opera, or Pilot & Moya
(two characters unlike ~anything~ ever seen in televised SF). After S4 (when
they killed off John & Aeryn in the finale), they ~could've~ gone on for up
to a full season with just the aliens (instead, the show was cancelled, and
they started the TV movie with John & Aeryn's resurrection).
> What annoys *me* is when the freakin' "god" characters start saying
> that humans have the potential to become the "greatest of all
> life-forms and even become a threat to us "q's"" Now *there's* a lack
> in humility.
Agreed, and ~this~ is what bugs me about most TV SF: no one accomplishes
anything except the humans. Why? Well. . . 'cause they're Special (but we'll
never actually explain ~how~). The closest they come is fictionalized PC
"racial profiling" (all Klingons are emotionally unstable, all Vulcans are
too logical to be creative, all Tellarites are stubborn, humans encompass
~all~ of these qualities, so we're like a Super-Race --everyone who isn't us
has to either work with us or be Evil).
What I used to love about Andromeda (before it sucked) was that the Systems
Commonwealth was created by Vedrans. Humans only joined after the Perseids
found us, and we still spent ~40 years as non-members. "The Homeworld" was
Tarn-Vedra, Earth was a bombed-out slave colony and no-one cared. The only
thing humans contributed was creating the Nietzscheans, who ended up
~destroying~ everything.
*SNIP*
> *snip*
> I can imagine Earth-modes being a sort of badge of honour among those
> who'd
> fought alongside Megatron on Earth (as opposed to hanging out in space
> where
> it was safe).
> *snip*
> Uh, WAR ON CYBERTRON, hello???
*SNIP*
I was channeling what would likely be the 'cons' own beliefs, with tongue
firmly in cheek. Every soldier tends to think "their" war is somehow more
important.
Meanwhile the non-Earth Decepticons would look down on the Earth team (and
possibly even Megatron) for basically sitting out the war and leaving it to
~them~ to conquer/hold Cybertron & any other colonies (or whatever it was
Misfire, Slugslinger, Bludgeon and the others were supposed to be doing
during that time).
Mark
"Could've led to an interesting conflict betwen Megatron's followers and
Shockwave's, with Starscream poised to take over ~everything.~"