Master collector's view on stolen TF Proto types/test shots is as follows:
Xgriml...@aol.com
comic/news paper/magazine issue.
Master collector writes:
"Time for me to get on my soapbox. We are seeing a fair number of
unannounced and ureleased items being STOLEN from the manufacturing
plants in China and being sold online. Please DO NOT purchase these
incomplete, unfinished, potentially dangerous items! By purchasing
these stolen items, you are hurting every brand they represent. Why?
Because the funds you are spending on them never go back to the people
that make them. This means that the more these items are siphoned off
by theives, the less the manufacturer sells and the less support the
product receives. So, if you don't want a product line cancelled,
don't be a part of this illegal trade. In addition, almost all of
these items are incomplete as they do not come with documentation, file
cards, and/or accessories. These products are untested and could also
be hazardous. They could also degrade quickly as the material is not
finished goods quality. It is silly to purchase items that will
disintegrate on your shelf. Hasbro has very strict standards and we
don't want to see anyone injured by these untested, illegally obtained
products. If everyone will stop buying these items, they will quit
stealing them, as there will not be a market for them. So just say NO
to items being sold from Hong Kong! Don't purchase unreleased items
from theives! OK, I'll get off the soap box now."
Xgriml...@aol.com
(1)People who buy these stolen TF proto types/test shots. pay tons of
money for them. these aren't bought to play heavy with or give to
little timmy. these stolen proto types are bought to be kept behind a
glass display case & not played with. people are well aware of the
cheap plastic used for these things. I don't think these things are
made out of plastic that would disintegrate like master collector
claims.
(2)Geez selling a dozen won't hurt the sales in the world wide market
that sells hundreds of thousands if not millions of TF toys. the
collectors only make up less than 15% of the toy market. only a few
handful of jack asses actually pay hundreds for a horrible+fraigile TF
proto type. most will have the brains+patience to wait for the in store
superior high quality version.
(3)people who buy these stolen proto types don't give a rats ass about
instruction booklets,boxes,tech specs & so forth. to them it's all
about having a uber rare piece months before it hits stores. to them
it's also a rare item that's looked at as a priceless vase/painting/one
of a kind piece.
Pierrimus
the hands of other toy manufacturers in China, whom might not give a care to
taking them apart and reproducing them en mass to be shipped to the US under
some other name prior to the regular toy releases over here. China's
copyright and trademark enforcement record is perhaps the worst in the
world.
I belieive they've had about a 6 month lead time in Japan to the US market,
enough time for KOs to be made and distributed over here, plus prototypes
only increase that amount of time. It's a sad situation and Takara/Tomy will
have to be pressured for better security measures by Hasbro if they want to
keep their market share. If you want to end this you have to stop it at the
source, there will always be a market for items that are rare and hard to
find.
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
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Nevermore
Meh, I'm torn on this one.
Everyone knows I detest proto dealers and try everything not to support
them, but then, the reasoning Brian Savage gave is outright stupid in
places.
For example:
> By purchasing these stolen items, you are hurting every brand they represent. Why? Because the funds you are spending on them never go back to the people that make them. This means that the more these items are siphoned off by theives, the less the manufacturer sells and the less support the product receives. So, if you don't want a product line cancelled, don't be a part of this illegal trade.
Savage not only "implies", he outright CLAIMS that every test shot sold
equals a finished toy not being sold. Even though most, if not all, of
the proto collectors openly admit they buy the finished products
regardless.
Some of the folks at Allspark turned this into a moral debate, which is
stupid, because the question is NOT whether spending one million
dollards on officially released toys "justifies" buying a stolen test
shot or not. The actual point is that Savage claims that buying a proto
DIRECTLY HURTS sales. Which is wrong.
> In addition, almost all of these items are incomplete as they do not come with documentation, file cards, and/or accessories. These products are untested and could also be hazardous. They could also degrade quickly as the material is not finished goods quality. It is silly to purchase items that will disintegrate on your shelf.
"People, stop being stupid! Stop wasting your money!" Even though I
agree with this point on a personal level, it's not a proper way of
making a point. Especially since it's the same logic collectors often
get to hear from relatives and/or friends - "Why do you spend all that
money on that plastic crap?" (also applies to comic book collectors and
about every other hobby that involves spending money)
> Hasbro has very strict standards and we don't want to see anyone injured by these untested, illegally obtained products.
I rarely hear of QC problems with test shots... the finished products
seem to be a much bigger problem, particularly those by Takara.
> If everyone will stop buying these items, they will quit stealing them, as there will not be a market for them.
Agreed.
> So just say NO to items being sold from Hong Kong!
This is my biggest problem. Not everything sold from Hong Kong is
stolen. There is a large market for official products in Hong Kong,
which usually come out before the toys in question hit US retail, but
the fact that all the Hong Kong stores start selling those toys on the
same day pretty much implies that we're dealing with a legal market
here. Plus, the stores and eBay sellers distributing those toys are not
the same ones that regularly sell the in-package "samples". I'm
seriously hoping that Brian Savage did not actually mean to accuse
Action-HQ of distributing stolen goods.
> Don't purchase unreleased items from theives!
Agreed.
--
The ultimate Binaltech/Alternators resource page
http://www.binalternators.de/
gem...@tpg.com.au
>(2)Geez selling a dozen won't hurt the sales in the world wide market
It does, however, detract a little from the collective joy of a new design
revealed. When it's done officially, there can be a little more lead-up, a
little bit of flash, pizzaz and fuzzy feelings. Come on, these guys spent
ages designing, tweaking and coloring these new toy. At least give them
the courtesy of being able to say "ta-dah!"
Being introduced to a new design via Ebay just isn't the same.
-SteveD
Nevermore
> It does, however, detract a little from the collective joy of a new design
> revealed. When it's done officially, there can be a little more lead-up, a
> little bit of flash, pizzaz and fuzzy feelings. Come on, these guys spent
> ages designing, tweaking and coloring these new toy. At least give them
> the courtesy of being able to say "ta-dah!"
We saw how that worked late last/early this year, when Hasbro's website
wasn't updated in months. If we were only to follow Hasbro's official
revelations of toys, the first time we would have learned of the
existence of things such as Universe Frostbite or Alternators
Shockblast would be when they popped up in retail.
BTW...
http://www.joesightings.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=204&view=findpost&p=2713
> That aside, the whole "these are stolen..." statements are BS also. Here's a fun little factoid: Brian Savage GAVE away multiple test shot figures at the 2003 convention. I know because he handed me one personally and that was before the multiples that were later given out at the dinner. Did he steal those?
Can you say "hypocrite"?
Denyer
> Being introduced to a new design via Ebay just isn't the same.
You know, it is possible to not follow links. And it's even easier if
you get your news from ATT -- no embedded images.
I don't think people would be so keen to get advance info if stores had
better distribution; in many cases people are budgeting ahead for stuff
they want including shipping, because they can't rely on picking it up
locally.
There's also the angle of market saturation. If people know about an
upcoming mould, they may not buy an interim figure release. At first
glance this seems bad for Hasbro, but I'd wager that the repeat
business sustained by helping customers make informed purchases they're
satified with outweighs the negative.
D.
Steve-o Stonebraker
> You know, it is possible to not follow links. And it's even easier if
> you get your news from ATT -- no embedded images.
>
> I don't think people would be so keen to get advance info if stores had
> better distribution; in many cases people are budgeting ahead for stuff
> they want including shipping, because they can't rely on picking it up
> locally.
Good point! Supporting thieves is okay if you happen to not be filthy
rich, and if you don't see the images personally, then there must be
nothing objectionable going on!
--Steve-o
--
Steve Stonebraker | http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~sstoneb/
sst...@gmail.com | Transformers, astrophysics, comics, games, cartoons.
Nonmisbcollector
THE FLOOD GATES HAVE BEEN OPENED!
Nevermore
Steve-o Stonebraker wrote:
> Good point! Supporting thieves is okay if you happen to not be filthy
> rich, and if you don't see the images personally, then there must be
> nothing objectionable going on!
I would have agreed here a few weeks ago, but even Aaron Archer himself
admits it can't be said for sure that all test shots we see on the
internet have been stolen.
http://www.tformers.com/article.php?sid=5044
Pyre
think it all comes down to one thing. Hasbro has asked us not to buy
these things. Personally, I enjoy Hasbro's product, and thus I respect
them enough to abide by their wishes. So if they ask me not to buy this
stuff, then I'm damn sure not going to buy it. It's as simple as that.
I think it's a shame that other fans can't do the same.
--
Pyre - py...@pyresdomain.net
http://www.pyresdomain.net/
"If you think it's over better think again. There'll be no compromise.
Turning up the power, feel adrenaline, move into overdrive."
Pyre
> If we were only to follow Hasbro's official
> revelations of toys, the first time we would have learned of the
> existence of things such as Universe Frostbite or Alternators
> Shockblast would be when they popped up in retail.
>
That's the way it used to be. I can remember when G2 came out and I had
no idea that it was happening. I was just wandering through the toy
isle one day and there was Starscream and Optimus Prime sitting on the
shelf. I was pretty excited. If I had known months in advance about
it, I don't think I would have been as excited about it upon seeing it
on the shelves. The last time in recent years that I was really excited
upon seeing a toy on the shelves was Alt Shockwave and that wasn't
because I didn't know he existed but because I didn't expect to see him
there.
G.B. Blackrock
>
> That's the way it used to be. I can remember when G2 came out and I had
> no idea that it was happening. I was just wandering through the toy
> isle one day and there was Starscream and Optimus Prime sitting on the
> shelf. I was pretty excited. If I had known months in advance about
> it, I don't think I would have been as excited about it upon seeing it
> on the shelves. The last time in recent years that I was really excited
> upon seeing a toy on the shelves was Alt Shockwave and that wasn't
> because I didn't know he existed but because I didn't expect to see him
> there.
>
> --
> Pyre - py...@pyresdomain.net
> http://www.pyresdomain.net/
> "If you think it's over better think again. There'll be no compromise.
> Turning up the power, feel adrenaline, move into overdrive."
I remember when G2 first came out. I was visiting home for my
Christmas since starting college. My brother told me that there were
new Transformers on the shelves. I almost strangled him as I thought
he was lying. Needless to say, I owed him an apology later.
If I'd known about such releases beforehand, I might have taken my
brother more at his word.
Of course, this ignores the fact that I should probably have trusted
him anyway....
M Sipher
news:1128186807.8...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Steve-o Stonebraker wrote:
> > Good point! Supporting thieves is okay if you happen to not be filthy
> > rich, and if you don't see the images personally, then there must be
> > nothing objectionable going on!
>
> I would have agreed here a few weeks ago, but even Aaron Archer himself
> admits it can't be said for sure that all test shots we see on the
> internet have been stolen.
>
> http://www.tformers.com/article.php?sid=5044
While this is TECHNICALLY true, but the odds are pretty fucking high that
any given item WAS stolen.
YES, some test-shots are given out legitimately to employees. And YES, Brian
Savage has given some away, as he gets test-shots of the toys he has made
for his conventions. (You'll notice the test-shots are also given away AFTER
the real toys are out officially and legally.)
But really, come the hell on. The odds of any random auction you pull off
eBay for an unpainted, oddly-colored, stamped with "NOT FOR SALE", as-of-yet
unreleased, unnamed and unannounced Transformers item where the seller is on
Hong Kong or Singapore or somesuch being NOT stolen...
M "You're Better Off Buying A Lottery Ticket" Sipher
--
King Weasel Productions
Home of the productions of King Weasel!
Original stuff, Transformers, MegaMan/RockMan and more crap!
http://www.fortunecity.com/tatooine/simak/109/
Nevermore
Pyre wrote:
> That's the way it used to be. I can remember when G2 came out and I had
> no idea that it was happening. I was just wandering through the toy
> isle one day and there was Starscream and Optimus Prime sitting on the
> shelf. I was pretty excited. If I had known months in advance about
> it, I don't think I would have been as excited about it upon seeing it
> on the shelves.
Don't want to be spoiled? Don't use the internet.
Seriously. Think of the people who would have no idea that things like
Alternators Swerve actually EXIST in the first place because they never
saw them in stores. To say it's a good thing that we don't get spoiled
about upcoming releases is a slap in the face of people who are
planning their budget in advance instead of just buying whatever they
see on the shelves.
I repeat, I detest any sort of dealing with stolen protos myself, but
the argument that Hasbro should be the only ones to reveal upcoming
releases, and if they don't reveal them until they pop up in stores, we
should just wait to be surprised, is bullcrap.
I'm open for valid arguments against stolen protos - but I don't buy
those asine excuses just for the sake of "they're against protos, so
they can't be wrong".
Nevermore
> While this is TECHNICALLY true, but the odds are pretty fucking high that
> any given item WAS stolen.
Yes, but Savage implies that EVERY TOY sold from Hong Kong is stolen,
thereby completely ignoring the legal market there which is a
completely separate entity from the preproduction/"dealer samples"
market. The official Hong Kong market is selling both Hasbro and Takara
toys, the latter beginning on the same day they officially come out in
Japan, the former usually a few weeks ahead of their first sighting in
US retail, but nevertheless beginning on a set "street date" and in
large quantities way above the pssobile number of stolen factory
samples. And the eBay sellers which start listing their stuff on the
official Hong Kong release date are different ones than those selling
the test shots and packaged samples.
And yet Savage openly says "So just say NO to items being sold from
Hong Kong!", thereby discriminating against the legal market in Hong
Kong just because some shoddy creatures from there are selling
(potentially) stolen preproduction pieces. That's just like claiming
everything coming from Korea is a bootleg, even though Sonokong is
releasing toys under license from Hasbro/Takara.
> But really, come the hell on. The odds of any random auction you pull off
> eBay for an unpainted, oddly-colored, stamped with "NOT FOR SALE", as-of-yet
> unreleased, unnamed and unannounced Transformers item where the seller is on
> Hong Kong or Singapore or somesuch being NOT stolen...
In the words of Aaron Archer:
"Plus that seller may have attained the item by legal means. You can't
prosecute someone who bought it legally from another person."
So even one of Hasbro's most well-known spokespersons admits that it
can't be said with certainty that a particular test shot auction is
offering a stolen item or not.
I'm not claiming I support those auctions. We don't allow links to
"live" test shot auctions at TF Archive. But this whole "every time you
dare looking at a test shot on the internet, Hasbro is getting a step
closer to bankruptcy" attitude by the unofficial Hasbro moral police is
not exactly helpful either.
I want to see these things stop popping up just like you, but while
arguing about them, I will make sure that both sides get heard instead
of simply resorting to any argument available, no matter how
far-fetched, for the sole reason because it's against protos.
Aaron F. Bourque
We meet again, Dr. Pilbottum.
> Just a few of my comments on what master collector said.
>
> (1)People who buy these stolen TF proto types/test shots. pay tons of
> money for them.
Because they're illegal.
> these aren't bought to play heavy with or give to little timmy.
Because they're not made for play.
Because they're ILLEGAL.
> these stolen proto types are bought to be kept behind a glass display
> case & not played with.
BECAUSE THEY'RE ILLEGAL.
> people are well aware of the cheap plastic used for these things. I
> don't think these things are made out of plastic that would
> disintegrate like master collector claims.
Because you're an idiot.
> (2)Geez selling a dozen won't hurt the sales in the world wide market
> that sells hundreds of thousands if not millions of TF toys.
That's not the point, you idiot.
> the collectors only make up less than 15% of the toy market. only a few
> handful of jack asses actually pay hundreds for a horrible+fraigile TF
> proto type. most will have the brains+patience to wait for the in store
> superior high quality version.
Also, legal version.
> (3)people who buy these stolen proto types don't give a rats ass about
> instruction booklets,boxes,tech specs & so forth. to them it's all
> about having a uber rare piece months before it hits stores. to them
> it's also a rare item that's looked at as a priceless vase/painting/one
> of a kind piece.
Which I'll never understand anyway, so it seems really weird.
Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque
Aaron F. Bourque
> gem...@tpg.com.au wrote:
> > It does, however, detract a little from the collective joy of a new design
> > revealed. When it's done officially, there can be a little more lead-up, a
> > little bit of flash, pizzaz and fuzzy feelings. Come on, these guys spent
> > ages designing, tweaking and coloring these new toy. At least give them
> > the courtesy of being able to say "ta-dah!"
>
> We saw how that worked late last/early this year, when Hasbro's website
> wasn't updated in months. If we were only to follow Hasbro's official
> revelations of toys, the first time we would have learned of the
> existence of things such as Universe Frostbite or Alternators
> Shockblast would be when they popped up in retail.
You mean, like back when we were kids?
Perish the thought . . .
Aaron F. Bourque
> Pyre wrote:
> > That's the way it used to be. I can remember when G2 came out and I had
> > no idea that it was happening. I was just wandering through the toy
> > isle one day and there was Starscream and Optimus Prime sitting on the
> > shelf. I was pretty excited. If I had known months in advance about
> > it, I don't think I would have been as excited about it upon seeing it
> > on the shelves.
>
> Don't want to be spoiled? Don't use the internet.
Fuck you.
> Seriously.
Fuck you seriously.
> Think of the people who would have no idea that things like Alternators
> Swerve actually EXIST in the first place because they never saw them in
> stores. To say it's a good thing that we don't get spoiled about upcoming
> releases is a slap in the face of people who are planning their budget in
> advance instead of just buying whatever they see on the shelves.
. . .
What the hell? You are so wrong, I can't even get into it right now.
Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; well, all right: I live in an area of
pisspoor distribution, and wouldn't know about *anything* until several
months *after* they're released nationally were it not for the
internet. There is a reason sighting posts are on-topic for this
newsgroup. God!
Aaron F. Bourque
> Steve-o Stonebraker wrote:
> > Good point! Supporting thieves is okay if you happen to not be filthy
> > rich, and if you don't see the images personally, then there must be
> > nothing objectionable going on!
>
> I would have agreed here a few weeks ago, but even Aaron Archer himself
> admits it can't be said for sure that all test shots we see on the
> internet have been stolen.
>
> http://www.tformers.com/article.php?sid=5044
Y'know, not every guy pulled over for speeding who just happens to have
a transvestite prostitute in their passenger seat was soliciting sex,
either.
Steve-o Stonebraker
> I repeat, I detest any sort of dealing with stolen protos myself, but
> the argument that Hasbro should be the only ones to reveal upcoming
> releases, and if they don't reveal them until they pop up in stores, we
> should just wait to be surprised, is bullcrap.
I don't think that "no information about toy releases that doesn't come
from Hasbro is acceptable" is a widely-held viewpoint. "Information about
toy releases that comes from almost-certainly-stolen test shot auctions is
tainted," is perhaps more representative.
Regardless, there are many sources of information about upcoming toys
aside from official statements from Hasbro about what they are releasing.
For example, items named in lists of merchandise from various retailers.
We *frequently* find out about upcoming stuff because some fan who works
at Target noticed a new listing. That's not a press release or a
cross-sell, but it's not "private" or secret information. That sort of
thing is perfectly legitimate.
Regarding the joesightings.com post you referenced, where a fan says that
Savage handed out test shots at the 2003 Joe convention: So what? I think
it's plain that those test shots would have been his property by
completely legitimate means. He was contracting a factory to produce toys
for him, and part of that process is having tests sent for inspection.
Those are his. That doesn't make him a hypocrite.
I agree that Savage's statements in the new newsletter are imprecise.
When speaking in an official capacity, he should be more careful with his
words, but I think you are taking what he took too literally when you
complain that he's disparaged ALL mechandise from Hong Kong. Yes, it
reads that way if you look only at the words, but I think that from the
context of his topic it's clear he is only referring to "prototype" sales.
I also agree with you that several of his arguments against buying the
protos are quite weak.
Steve-o Stonebraker
> I would have agreed here a few weeks ago, but even Aaron Archer himself
> admits it can't be said for sure that all test shots we see on the
> internet have been stolen.
>
> http://www.tformers.com/article.php?sid=5044
It wasn't clear to me how to take that, actually.
The way it's reported leaves a lot of ambiguity, especially since the
answers have been paraphrased. It might even be that Aaron meant they
couldn't necessarily prosecute the sellers because they may not be the
actual thieves. I believe in the US it is a crime to buy merchandise
which you know to be stolen, but I have no idea if that's the case in
China or Hong Kong. Maybe it's not. But even if it is (I would guess so,
but I don't want to assume it) there remains the remote possibility that
some of the toys aren't stolen, and it's quite plausible to me that the
burden of proof would be very, very difficult to establish from Rhode
Island, to the point that it's not worth trying. That fits quite well, I
think, under the "they *might* have acquired them legally" answer that is
given.
Also, I think it's relevant that this is just one of several statements
we've gotten from people involved in TF production -- even though some of
those people were fan club directors -- and it's essentially the first
time the answer has had any room for doubt as to the toys being stolen.
I'm not inclined to just throw out the "they're stolen" viewpoint based
just on that report.
Nevermore
> You mean, like back when we were kids?
You mean like before we had the internet?
Nevermore
Aaron F. Bourque wrote:
> Fuck you.
>
> > Seriously.
>
> Fuck you seriously.
Aaaah, did I hit a nerve?
There are multiple ways we learn of upcoming toys. A fan working at TRU
or Target posting a listing he found in their computers, online
retailers posting official Hasbro solocitations, Hasbro posting a
preview on their website... Singling out test shots popping up, be it
those sold on eBay (which I'm not too fond of personally) or those
someone in China already bought and just posts pics of for everyone to
see (which I have less problems with, since the purchase has already
ocurred and there's nothing to "support" anymore) as being a huge
spoilsport when everything else is considered perfectly fine is one of
the the most asine excuses I've ever heard.
As I said before, I'm open to valid arguments against protos (which I'd
prefer not seeing leaking anymore, as I also said before), but "OH
NOES, THEY TAKE AWAY ALL THE FUN OF FINDING AN UNEXPECTED TOY IN
STORES!" is pure and utter bullshit in the internet age. Assume Hasbro
announce a new toy on their website, and a test shot pops up a week
later. Does it still spoil anything for you?
> What the hell? You are so wrong, I can't even get into it right now.
>
> Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; well, all right: I live in an area of
> pisspoor distribution, and wouldn't know about *anything* until several
> months *after* they're released nationally were it not for the
> internet. There is a reason sighting posts are on-topic for this
> newsgroup. God!
But if you had no clue what this "Alternators Swerve" everyone is
suddenly seeing in stores looks like, that wouldn't help you much,
would it?
Nevermore
enforces a "no pics, links or even MENTION of prototypes or we will all
go to hell" policy never got any kind of reward from Hasbro, whereas
the one site which is still said to have the closest ties to Hasbro,
with one of their staff members being a drinking buddy of Aaron Archer,
is openly reporting test shots and even posting links to eBay auctions
on their main page and was never told to take down those links in the
past two years, but instead continues being supported by the big H?
Aaron F. Bourque
> Aaron F. Bourque wrote:
> > Fuck you.
> >
> > > Seriously.
> >
> > Fuck you seriously.
>
> Aaaah, did I hit a nerve?
. . . obviously. Rampant idiocy always makes me angry.
> There are multiple ways we learn of upcoming toys. A fan working at TRU
> or Target posting a listing he found in their computers, online
> retailers posting official Hasbro solocitations, Hasbro posting a
> preview on their website
Wow. All of which involve the internet.
> ... Singling out test shots popping up, be it those sold on eBay (which
> I'm not too fond of personally) or those someone in China already bought
> and just posts pics of for everyone to see (which I have less problems
> with, since the purchase has already ocurred and there's nothing
> to "support" anymore) as being a huge spoilsport when everything else is
> considered perfectly fine is one of the the most asine excuses I've ever
> heard.
Oh well. Too bad. Plenty of people seem to feel this way.
> As I said before, I'm open to valid arguments against protos (which I'd
> prefer not seeing leaking anymore, as I also said before), but "OH
> NOES, THEY TAKE AWAY ALL THE FUN OF FINDING AN UNEXPECTED TOY IN
> STORES!" is pure and utter bullshit in the internet age. Assume Hasbro
> announce a new toy on their website, and a test shot pops up a week
> later. Does it still spoil anything for you?
"Suppose something completely different from what everyone's talking
about happens? Would that be the same?"
> > What the hell? You are so wrong, I can't even get into it right now.
> >
> > Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; well, all right: I live in an area of
> > pisspoor distribution, and wouldn't know about *anything* until several
> > months *after* they're released nationally were it not for the
> > internet. There is a reason sighting posts are on-topic for this
> > newsgroup. God!
>
> But if you had no clue what this "Alternators Swerve" everyone is
> suddenly seeing in stores looks like, that wouldn't help you much,
> would it?
Yes. Because I cannot read the name of the toy if it does show up here,
and because I don't know how to use the search engine at Amazon to
check it out there if it doesn't.
Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; I say again: GOD!
Orson "Sidecutter" Christian
news:1128217069.9...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Just as an example. All those clear/chrome toys that end up as lucky draws?
They make those ALL THE TIME. For pretty much every toy they ever make. We
were treated to pics of the infamous all-clear "Lucky Draw" Starscream,
among others. Remember how there were only supposed to be a few of those,
but far more showed up on eBay and the like? Well, they don't just churn
out ten. They just happen to use ten for the prizes. The rest go into the
archives for references, or go to execs, workers, friends, family...they're
not "lunchtime specials" at all.
There were, among others, clear uncolored Starscreams, silver-chrome
Starscreams, proper-colors chrome Starscreams, chrome Thundercrackers,
chrome Sunstorms, clear Megatrons, clear Soundwaves, chrome Soundwaves...all
perfectly able to get out for legit sale, after all.
Aaron F. Bourque
> Aaron F. Bourque wrote:
> > You mean, like back when we were kids?
>
> You mean like before we had the internet?
Well, here's the thing: We now HAVE the internet. Which means that
those with the means can get pretty much any new toy even if they live
in an area of pisspoor distribution where stuff takes two months to
show up (if they show up at all: Masterpiece
Prime--Masterpiece-freaking Prime!!--took two and a half months to get
to a toy store near me, and I never even SAW re-release Hot Rod/Rodimus
Major; I had to resort to e-Bay).
Also, we're not children anymore. Which means that we should be able to
not be immature, impatient, spoiled assholes who demand everything
before anyone official is ready to really confirm the existence of
such. We hould have some goddamn impulse control.
Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; and once more, for flavor: GOD!!
Aaron F. Bourque
They're still marked: "Not For Sale" or "Not For Retail," right? If the
individual who was gifted with such decides to sell it, fine.
But the POINT is that, in fact, actually, *most* guys pulled over for
speeding who just happens to have a transvestite prostitute in their
passenger seat *were*, indeed, soliciting sex.
And MOST test shots are stolen. So, really, leave 'em alone.
Nevermore
> . . . obviously. Rampant idiocy always makes me angry.
Where I come from, "Fuck you" means "I'm running out of arguments, so I
revert to name calling instead to show how superior I am". But that
might be different where you live.
> Wow. All of which involve the internet.
Uhm... your point being?
If you regularly visit TF websites, you get spoiled by your standards.
Be it "official" solicitations or unauthorized "leaks". So I don't
really see how this is supposed to back up your position. Unless you
deliberately avoid every Transformers-related site on the internet,
including Hasbro.com, just so avoid the evil "toy spoilers" and still
retain the child-like joy of finding an unexpected toy in stores.
> Oh well. Too bad. Plenty of people seem to feel this way.
Okay, so how about those "internal databank listings"? There's a reason
why those are not available to the public yet. Shouldn't TRU employees
who report the latest incoming listings from Hasbro which are not
available anywhere public yet be regarded as evil spoilsports too?
> "Suppose something completely different from what everyone's talking
> about happens? Would that be the same?"
Okay, how about this? A few months ago, Afterburner from the Allspark
(who is working for TRU) reported an internal TRU listing for "Beast
Wars 10th Anniversary". Hasbro had not officially announced it anywhere
yet. The first time Hasbro revealed the toys to the public was at
BotCon. But the fandom had already been given the TRU listing. Isn't
that spoiling the surprise too? Where's the difference between this and
test shots leaking?
> Yes. Because I cannot read the name of the toy if it does show up here,
> and because I don't know how to use the search engine at Amazon to
> check it out there if it doesn't.
Assuming the toy doesn't show up in your place. How do you know it's
any good if you haven't seen pics yet? Do you regularly spend money on
toys just going by the names alone?
Thylacine 2000
Orson "Sidecutter" Christian wrote:
> All those clear/chrome toys that end up as lucky draws?
> They make those ALL THE TIME. For pretty much every toy they ever make. We
> were treated to pics of the infamous all-clear "Lucky Draw" Starscream,
> among others. Remember how there were only supposed to be a few of those,
> but far more showed up on eBay and the like? Well, they don't just churn
> out ten. They just happen to use ten for the prizes. The rest go into the
> archives for references, or go to execs, workers, friends, family...they're
> not "lunchtime specials" at all.
This is only according to the word of Alvarez at his TF Rarities panel.
I am not willing to accept it as gospel truth, sorry. He seemed
well-intentioned but poorly prepared, and many of the things that he
said were totally un-verifiable. I.E. there were only ever 5 made of
this bizarre and hideous chromed Sunstorm that was never released and
that nobody had ever heard of before and of which a 6th or a 16th or a
60th could effortlessly have been pressed and snatched off the assembly
line.
He also said things that were simply demonstrably wrong, i.e. "the
Energon Seacons are abandoned and will never be released," and less
than 24 hours later Hasbro (presumably the sources for the images of
that very set that he showed) said that they really wanted to release
the Energon Seacons and were actively trying to find the means to do
so.
While I'm here, I also doubt his very adamant statement that "lunchtime
specials" do not exist. Much of his panel seemed like less of an
educational exercise and more an attempt to show off and brag about the
expensive shit he happened to own--so of course he was boosting the
value of his investments by making them into "real" Transformers
instead of the unlicensed bootlegs that they really do seem to be.
When he said that some of those chromed monstrosities are so soft and
fragile that just touching them will permanently mold your fingerprints
into them, I'm sorry, that just SHRIEKS bootleg. I have never once
heard of any legitimate TF item, by either Hasbro or Takara,
demonstrating such a defect. And they've made lots of hideous chromed
toys before.
Speaking of hideous chromed fugly things that nobody cares about,
Alvarez sure did. Speak of them, I mean. The priorities he used in
his panel were all screwy. He devoted nearly all of his time to
gawking at stuff that everybody already knew existed and/or could
unearth using public sources, and then sped in a manner of a few
SECONDS through the world-premiere discussions and images of toys never
before announced to have existed.
I would conservatively estimate that there were 40+ minutes, and 50+
images, of his boring-ass ShitMaster clear & chrome quasi-bootlegs of
the G1 reissues. Like an entire Playboy-shoot worth of Clear G1 Jazz.
If you can imagine how little most people care, I think you're
overestimating it, most people care even less.
And then ZIP, we go past the first images of Menasor (a 2003 unreleased
exclusive redeco of Thunderclash as a Decepticon), Toxitron (Laser
Prime dipped in snot, also a Decepticon, also unreleased and
unannounced), an Ultra Jetstorm redeco(ditto, and I can't even recall
the new deco because he went past it in less than 3 seconds), Totally
Different Mold Megabolt Megatron, and the first re-displaying of the
legendary Safety Gunmegs. I would liberally estimate that we got a
TOTAL of 2 minutes on all those never-before-disclosed toys, COMBINED.
And that was with 4 or 5 pics of New Megabolt and 5 or 6 of Safety
Gunmegs.
It was so extreme, that if you read some of the webboards' reports on
his panel, most of them actually omit some of the new toys that were in
it, because they were literally on-screen for a matter of SECONDS and
people either didn't notice or couldn't retain it.
But damn, they remembered his defense of the lunchtime specials.
Steve-o Stonebraker
> Just as an example. All those clear/chrome toys that end up as lucky draws?
> They make those ALL THE TIME. For pretty much every toy they ever make.
Source for this information, please? The first time I ever heard anybody
say anything even remotely like this was at Alverez's Botcon panel last
weekend. A panel which was full of "I think this is from Contest X, but I
don't know" and completely unverifiable claims which, to me, sounded like
they were probably BS told to him by the people that sell him his
probably-stolen toys. The notion that clear and chromed variants are
created for every toy "for reference" is truly bizarre, and I'm going to
need a lot more than one guy's say-so to believe that it's true and not a
coverup for shady activity.
Pyre
> Did it ever occurr to anyone that the only major TF site which heavily
> enforces a "no pics, links or even MENTION of prototypes or we will all
> go to hell" policy never got any kind of reward from Hasbro,
Anyone looking for a "reward" from Hasbro for following their wishes is
doing so for the wrong reasons and just because Hasbro DOESN'T "reward"
anyone isn't a valid reason for not following their wishes. The whole
notion behind that sentiment is just ridiculous.
> whereas
> the one site which is still said to have the closest ties to Hasbro,
> with one of their staff members being a drinking buddy of Aaron Archer,
> is openly reporting test shots and even posting links to eBay auctions
> on their main page and was never told to take down those links in the
> past two years, but instead continues being supported by the big H?
>
I really don't see how TFW is being "supported by Hasbro". Just because
Kickback is allegedly a drinking buddy of Aaron's doesn't mean that
Hasbro is supporting his site. The only site Hasbro "supports" is their
own. If they chose to do so, they could shut down TFW tomorrow and have
every legal right to do so and Aaron's alleged friendship with Kickback
wouldn't effect that in any way other then he may give him a heads up
first. But again, that's no reason not to follow Hasbro's wishes.
Pyre
>
> Yes. Because I cannot read the name of the toy if it does show up here,
> and because I don't know how to use the search engine at Amazon to
> check it out there if it doesn't.
>
This also doesn't take into acount all the online stores that put up
preorders for stuff, which includes Alternators.
Pyre
>
> Assuming the toy doesn't show up in your place. How do you know it's
> any good if you haven't seen pics yet?
o_O Obviously in this case he would look for some pictures of the toy
before purchasing it.
Nevermore
Aaron F. Bourque wrote:
> Also, we're not children anymore. Which means that we should be able to
> not be immature, impatient, spoiled assholes who demand everything
> before anyone official is ready to really confirm the existence of
> such. We hould have some goddamn impulse control.
On the other hand, we're also no corporate tools who constantly kiss
Hasbro's butt hoping they will be kind enough to tell us which toys
they are going to release next.
TFW2005 have reported the leaked BotCon exclusives. And yet the BotCon
affiliatescontinue posting at TFW and have apparently never asked them
to take down the pics.
The bottom line is, as much as some people like to play teacher's pet,
Hasbro don't fucking CARE. Sure, if you ask them at a convention "What
don you think about protos being sold on eBay?", they will say "We ask
people not to buy them", but as far as I know, the last time Hasbro
ACTIVELY, without anyone begging them to make a public statement, tried
to enforce any sort of "prototype policy" on fansites was in early
2003, and even then, they never bothered to send out the guidelines
they promised to provide.
Nonmisbcollector
HIDE YOUR BABIES!
HE EATS THEM FOR DINNER!
Orson "Sidecutter" Christian
No, they aren't. Those clear versions and chrome versions are not in fact
marked in any such way.
> But the POINT is that, in fact, actually, *most* guys pulled over for
> speeding who just happens to have a transvestite prostitute in their
> passenger seat *were*, indeed, soliciting sex.
>
> And MOST test shots are stolen. So, really, leave 'em alone.
If it says "NOT FOR SALE" clearly, I wouldn't argue the likelihood that it's
stolen. But not all of them have these markings. Those markings, actually,
are a relatively recent thing to have. As are the reversed-color faction
emblems.
Aaron F. Bourque
> Aaron F. Bourque wrote:
> > . . . obviously. Rampant idiocy always makes me angry.
>
> Where I come from, "Fuck you" means "I'm running out of arguments, so I
> revert to name calling instead to show how superior I am". But that
> might be different where you live.
Newsgroup propogation rates differ, but I'm fairly certain my fuck you
post was the first post I made. Hardly running out of arguments. I do
have a tendency to go from 0 to pissed in .0000001 seconds, though, no
in between.
> > Wow. All of which involve the internet.
>
> Uhm... your point being?
That your idea to avoid the 'net if you don't want to be spoiled is
kind of stupid. Like saying if you don't want to be spoiled, don't
watch the movie/show, listen to the song, or read the book/comic, or
whatever.
> If you regularly visit TF websites, you get spoiled by your standards.
Whoah, whoah. By what you are *claiming* are my standards. But notice
how no one has actually said what their standards *are*, yet, aside
from stating that illegal tests shots are crossing the line. That's a
far cry from saying *everything on-line will spoil you!"
> Be it "official" solicitations or unauthorized "leaks". So I don't
> really see how this is supposed to back up your position.
Oh, and also, I don't specifically have a position. My responses to you
have been knee-jerk reactions to your, well, assholish dumbness.
> Unless you deliberately avoid every Transformers-related site on the
> internet, including Hasbro.com, just so avoid the evil "toy spoilers" and
> still retain the child-like joy of finding an unexpected toy in stores.
But wait! Seeing the toys in the stores will ruin the joy of unwrapping
the christmas/gift packaging! So DON'T DO IT!
. . .
> > Oh well. Too bad. Plenty of people seem to feel this way.
>
> Okay, so how about those "internal databank listings"? There's a reason
> why those are not available to the public yet. Shouldn't TRU employees
> who report the latest incoming listings from Hasbro which are not
> available anywhere public yet be regarded as evil spoilsports too?
. . .
I don't see it as anything remotely the same. Any quick googling of
such posts here will almost invariably reveal that at least one, and
possibly more, of the names in the computer are not what we're
expecting, once the toy comes out. Sometimes, those names are
inaccurate, to boot. Such posts fuel speculation about what we're
getting. Marginally legal test shots and prototypes and all don't fuel
speculation of what we're getting. They basically tell us, "Bruce
Willis's character is dead!" or "the narrator is Tyler Durden," or
"Darth Vader is Luke's Father!" or "Rhett and Scarlett don't end up
together!"
> > "Suppose something completely different from what everyone's talking
> > about happens? Would that be the same?"
>
> Okay, how about this? A few months ago, Afterburner from the Allspark
> (who is working for TRU) reported an internal TRU listing for "Beast
> Wars 10th Anniversary". Hasbro had not officially announced it anywhere
> yet. The first time Hasbro revealed the toys to the public was at
> BotCon. But the fandom had already been given the TRU listing. Isn't
> that spoiling the surprise too? Where's the difference between this and
> test shots leaking?
How could it possibly when everyone thought those were going to be
Robot Master molds . . . which had long been public. I say again:
"Suppose something completely different from what everyone's talking
about happens? Would that be the same?"
> > Yes. Because I cannot read the name of the toy if it does show up here,
> > and because I don't know how to use the search engine at Amazon to
> > check it out there if it doesn't.
>
> Assuming the toy doesn't show up in your place. How do you know it's
> any good if you haven't seen pics yet? Do you regularly spend money on
> toys just going by the names alone?
Ah, I see. I can't read reviews, either, or I risk spoiling myself.
Yet again, you're being stupid.
Orson "Sidecutter" Christian
news:slrndk04pr....@fox.mps.ohio-state.edu...
> On Sun, 02 Oct 2005 14:19:23 GMT, Orson "Sidecutter" Christian wrote:
>> Just as an example. All those clear/chrome toys that end up as lucky
>> draws?
>> They make those ALL THE TIME. For pretty much every toy they ever make.
>
> Source for this information, please? The first time I ever heard anybody
> say anything even remotely like this was at Alverez's Botcon panel last
> weekend. A panel which was full of "I think this is from Contest X, but I
> don't know" and completely unverifiable claims which, to me, sounded like
> they were probably BS told to him by the people that sell him his
> probably-stolen toys. The notion that clear and chromed variants are
> created for every toy "for reference" is truly bizarre, and I'm going to
> need a lot more than one guy's say-so to believe that it's true and not a
> coverup for shady activity.
You could. oh, I don't know...contact Takara, if you really doubt him that
much?
There's still the fact that what he told us about these things being
commonplace fits quite well with how he said they fit into the lucky draws
and special editions we constantly see in chrome or clear. If these are
being made anyways, using them as giveaways or special mail-ins makes them
just one more source of money or publicity for Takara.
Honestly, does anyone REALLY think they only make TEN of something, when
they outright go and display TWO of them at a toy fair? That's pretty
silly, I think.
Nevermore
> That your idea to avoid the 'net if you don't want to be spoiled is
> kind of stupid. Like saying if you don't want to be spoiled, don't
> watch the movie/show, listen to the song, or read the book/comic, or
> whatever.
Morseo "don't watch the 'Next week on...' teaser at the end of this
weeks episode" or "don't look at the preview pages for the latest issue
of..."
> I don't see it as anything remotely the same. Any quick googling of
> such posts here will almost invariably reveal that at least one, and
> possibly more, of the names in the computer are not what we're
> expecting, once the toy comes out.
But not when Hasbro haven't officially announced the toy yet. In fact,
I seem to recall that there was at least one instance last year when a
store listing (which included the first ever mention of a "Honda S2000
Alternator") was posted online and later taken down again because
someone complained. Wow, I thought those were perfectly fine?
> Sometimes, those names are inaccurate, to boot.
And sometimes the test shots are also misleading. Remember
"Sunstreaker", complete with a molded Autobot symbol?
> Such posts fuel speculation about what we're getting.
> Marginally legal test shots and prototypes and all don't fuel
> speculation of what we're getting.
Nope, everyone instantly knew that we were getting a Dead End
Alternator in black when we saw the first test shot in red with a
molded Autobot logo. Everyone knew that the green/white retool of Hound
with a Trailbreaker head sculpt would eventually end up as Swindle, in
yellow. Everyone instanly knew what the red Honda S2000 would
eventually be named by Hasbro. Everyone knew what Hasbro would call the
yellow retool.
And everyone instantly knew that the Energon combiners would feature
repainted limbs the moment we saw the first test shots. No, those
things never fuel speculation, especially not when their colors and
details differ vastly from the final product.
> They basically tell us, "Bruce
> Willis's character is dead!" or "the narrator is Tyler Durden," or
> "Darth Vader is Luke's Father!" or "Rhett and Scarlett don't end up
> together!"
Sure, and Hasbro officially announcing the toy a week or a month later
doesn't have the same effect, "because it's from Hasbro". As far as I'm
concerned, an article printed in a Japanese magazine, officially
authorized by Takara and all, discussing the events from an upcoming
episode of Galaxy Force is spoiling the story more than seeing a test
shot of a repainted Megatron, whom Hasbro will officially announce a
week later.
Oh, and remember how we first learned of the Alternators Shockblast
toy? It went like this:
http://www.tfw2005.com/transformers/thread62026.html
And now we take a look at the official Hasbro announcement of the toy:
...
...
Uhm, well, eventually the toy popped up in stores.
And the official confirmation of the Takara version:
http://www.tfw2005.com/gallery/SpecialEvents-TakaraKonami/SANY0039?full=1
If you ask me, I found the "unofficial" revlation a lot more
entertaining and "surprising" than the official confirmation. But then,
I guess I'm just a spoilsport, eh?
> How could it possibly when everyone thought those were going to be
> Robot Master molds . . . which had long been public. I say again:
> "Suppose something completely different from what everyone's talking
> about happens? Would that be the same?"
Okay... Hasbro have been posting the bio for Leobreaker on their
website for months, which reveals that he is an upgraded Overhaul, even
though the episode in question still hasn't aired on American TV. I'd
consider that a bigger spoiler than seeing pictures of the toy a few
months in advance without any "THIS IS THE SAME CHARACTER AS OVERHAUL"
notes written all over him.
Oh, speaking of, how about the "hidden" bios on Hasbro's website which
are not linked from their main page yet, but can easily be discovered
by playing around with the URL bar? Spoilers or no?
> Ah, I see. I can't read reviews, either, or I risk spoiling myself.
But unless the people who wrote those reviews have seen pictures online
before buying the toy, you'd be relying on someone blindly buying a toy
without checking it out online beforehand. If no-one buys a toy without
checking out pictures online first, you wouldn't see those reviews.
ShadowWing
"Nevermore" wrote
>
> In the words of Aaron Archer:
> "Plus that seller may have attained the item by legal means. You can't
> prosecute someone who bought it legally from another person."
Ah, but where did that "another person" get it? It's like not
prosecuting the guy who bought the stolen Rolex. He didn't steal the Rolex,
or know that it was stolen, but it was still stolen by the guy he bought it
from.
--
updated before I die:
The Transformation Zone
http://pages.cthome.net/ShadowWing
Xgriml...@aol.com
Bourque & Nevermore.
I'm gonna have to agree with Nevermore on this issue. I'm gonna have to
Disagree with Aaron F. Bourque on this issue.
Who gives a rat's @$$ about being surprissed or waiting for official
info. I'm one of the guys who like to know advanced info ASAP. Whether
it be legit means or not.
I don't quite understand the fetish some have with no TF cartoon
spoliers & no toy spoilers. Geez,what's the big deal in knowing what
happens in the GF cartoon in episode 40? When cybertron is only on
episode 15. What's the big deal in knowing what a TF toy looks like
5+months before it hits stores??
Geez Aaron why don't you go all the way & prevent yourself from seeing
those galaxy force toys. after all aren't those Galaxy force toys out
6+ months before the Hasbro versions???
GEEZ,The reason Why I got a computer 10+years ago was to surf the
internet. I wanted to know advanced info & news. The internet is the
best place for news.
While I won't buy the TF proto types due to cheap plastic & such.
I enjoy seeing those proto types. to see what the toy looks like.
Waiting for official info+pics can sometimes take months upon months.
I don't think these stolen proto types hurt hasbro or Takara. I think
these stolen proto types actually help both hasbro+takara.
These proto type sellers are giving hasbro free advanced toy
advertisement. on perhaps the most popular search engine called "ebay."
all the fans drool over the proto types pics & then months later buy
the in store toy. this gives the fans time to save up for a desired
item.
I don't think those stolen proto types can hurt takara or hasbro in any
major way. I would think toy design patents are done when the toy is
drawn as art & not in the release in store time. anyways every company
has spies. if a competitor wants to copy your ideas,there gonna do it
either way. no major company is gonna copy the product & sell it
before hasbro. there's design patents that prevent that.
So what harm does a stolen TF proto type really do????????
nothing but gives hasbro+takara FREE toy advertisement. Hasbro & takara
ain't liable for anything because there's no copy right stamp on the
toys. the item has a not for sale patent on the toy. you can't go
before a judge & say the following: "I bought this stolen toy off ebay
& broke a nail on the sharp piece of plastic. then say I'm suing hasbro
for money." the judge will say you bought the toy through illegial
means. hasbro+takara put a warning label not for sale. this toy was not
meant to be owned by a consumer.." this proto type was meant for use by
hasbro's workers only.
The Madd1!
The MAdd1!
ha
<Xgriml...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1128143844....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Just a few of my comments on what master collector said.
>
> (1)People who buy these stolen TF proto types/test shots. pay tons of
> money for them. these aren't bought to play heavy with or give to
> little timmy. these stolen proto types are bought to be kept behind a
> glass display case & not played with. people are well aware of the
> cheap plastic used for these things. I don't think these things are
> made out of plastic that would disintegrate like master collector
> claims.
> (2)Geez selling a dozen won't hurt the sales in the world wide market
> that sells hundreds of thousands if not millions of TF toys. the
> collectors only make up less than 15% of the toy market. only a few
> handful of jack asses actually pay hundreds for a horrible+fraigile TF
> proto type. most will have the brains+patience to wait for the in store
> superior high quality version.
> (3)people who buy these stolen proto types don't give a rats ass about
> instruction booklets,boxes,tech specs & so forth. to them it's all
> about having a uber rare piece months before it hits stores. to them
> it's also a rare item that's looked at as a priceless vase/painting/one
> of a kind piece.
>
gem...@tpg.com.au
wrote:
>Also, we're not children anymore. Which means that we should be able to
>not be immature, impatient, spoiled assholes who demand everything
>before anyone official is ready to really confirm the existence of
>such. We should have some goddamn impulse control.
I find your theories intriguing and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
Aaron F. Bourque
It's $12 for a year's subscription.
Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; but it comes out weekly!
Aaron F. Bourque
> I just read the argument/fight scenario replies between Aaron F.
> Bourque & Nevermore.
>
> I'm gonna have to agree with Nevermore on this issue. I'm gonna have to
> Disagree with Aaron F. Bourque on this issue.
>
> Who gives a rat's @$$ about being surprissed or waiting for official
> info. I'm one of the guys who like to know advanced info ASAP. Whether
> it be legit means or not.
Bully for you. Once again, you lose the internet.
I don't care where you get your info. If it's illegal, well, I'm not
the one your hurting. I got pissed at what Nevermore said about the
internet.
Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Boutrque
Pyre
>
> Whoah, whoah. By what you are *claiming* are my standards. But notice
> how no one has actually said what their standards *are*, yet, aside
> from stating that illegal tests shots are crossing the line. That's a
> far cry from saying *everything on-line will spoil you!"
>
Agreed. I know MY only point was that finding stuff for the first time
in stores isn't such a horrible thing not that that's the only way we
should get our information. Information through official means is
ideally the only way we should get it. Whether that be through store
preorders, Toyfair, conventions or Hasbro's own website. Anyone ever
stop and think that perhaps the reason Hasbro stopped putting this stuff
on their website is because of the test shot leaks? By the time Hasbro
updated their website with upcoming info, the majority of it was already
know because someone had stolen a test shot and put it on eBay. Maybe
they figured "what's the point"? Maybe if all this leakage wasn't going
on they might update it more?
This whole argument boils down to one thing. "ME ME ME GIMME GIMME
GIMME IWANT IWANT IWANT!!!!11!11!" That's the only reason I can think
of that people are so dead set against abiding by Hasbro's wishes and
buying these things. These people want to continue to do it and don't
care about the consequences. All they care about are themselves. It's
ridiculous and sad that we have such people in our fandom.
Steve-o Stonebraker
> You could. oh, I don't know...contact Takara, if you really doubt him that
> much?
Ah, yes, a very practical suggestion. I'll get right on starting a
correspondance with people who could actually answer that question who I
have no way of locating or reaching.
> There's still the fact that what he told us about these things being
> commonplace fits quite well with how he said they fit into the lucky draws
> and special editions we constantly see in chrome or clear. If these are
> being made anyways, using them as giveaways or special mail-ins makes them
> just one more source of money or publicity for Takara.
I have to disagree. As I recall his panel -- I went for the first
instance of it, and perhaps he told it differently the second time -- the
story was that Takara makes chromed and translucent versions of every
single Transformer they produce, sometimes in multiple colors. They
supposedly do this so that the pieces can be used "for reference". "For
reference" apparently means that they might, conceivably, someday be shown
off to people who run contests so they will know, for example, what
exactly a gold-chrome version of Sideswipe will look like and can make an
informed decision about whether they want to produce some for a contest or
exclusive or what-have-you. This story strikes me as ABSURD.
Perhaps I misunderstood him. I'd sort of like to believe that I did.
The way you describe it, it sounds more like he said that they produce
these variants (for purposes unknown) and then sometimes decide to give
them away as prizes. That is, they give away the actual pieces they
already produced, not show them off as examples and then produce more.
This is significantly more believable, but it still begs the question of
why so many clear and chrome toys are being made in the first place, when
we know that the number of weird prize toys given away is so small.
Without a way to justify their production in the first place, this is
still beyond the realm of believability for me.
Even if I were to accept that they do indeed make not just actual test
shots for preparing the production line, but "real" units of the toy for
possible giveaway (and that they often go to the trouble of chroming
them), that still doesn't explain how those toys end up on eBay. If these
toys are actual test shots made for checking the line, I'm not inclined to
think that the factory is authorized by their employers (ie.
Takara/Hasbro) to simply give away these units or sell them for the
pesonal financial gain of factory employees. If these toys are produced
for a specific purpose (be it "reference", or as potential contest prizes,
or whatever) then again, I am not inclined to think that anybody has the
authorization to hand them out to employees. They are being produced for
a particular purpose, and any toy that is produced but ends up somewhere
else is, I would think, a violation of policy or contract.
Admittedly, I have no evidence for these suppositions. I don't know
anything about the details of the arragements between HasTak and the
factories they work with. Maybe the deals SAY "hey, you can make an extra
dozen of every toy and give them to the managers and they can do anything
they want to with them". It just seems really unlikely to me, based on
what little knowledge I have of the business world. Far more likely, I
think, is that this is all unauthorized, but is such small potatoes that
nobody in authority feels it's worth their trouble to stop it.
Lastly, this part is sadly going to sound rather like I won't consider any
argument against my position, but I'm all but unwilling to accept the word
of anybody involved with the trade of these toys when they say "no, no,
it's all okay. they 'find their way out' of the factory, but they aren't
stolen." Alverez, for example, probably believes that, but I don't trust
the people who told him, whoever they may be. If the toys are contraband,
as I believe them to be on the basis of repeated statements from people
involved in the toyline, then of *course* the people bringing them out for
sale are going to try to put a different spin on it. The only word I'll
accept on these NOT being grey-market at best is the word of people who
are actually in a position to KNOW, and who don't have an obvious
ulterior motive for claiming that everything is legitimate.
Some people are suggesting that Aaron's statements in that recent TFormers
article amount to such, but as I already said, I disagree. The statements
are vague and paraphrased, and represent just one instance of a "it's not
ALL bad" statement from a real authority figure, in opposition to the many
previous statements of "it's bad" that we've already been given.
> Honestly, does anyone REALLY think they only make TEN of something, when
> they outright go and display TWO of them at a toy fair? That's pretty
> silly, I think.
I agree. They would almost certainly need to make more than that while
adjusting the equipment or testing plastic or whatever other startup
things they have to do. And all of those pieces should be disposed of in
whatever way HasTak wishes, not handed out to people to put on eBay.
Nevermore
> Anyone ever
> stop and think that perhaps the reason Hasbro stopped putting this stuff
> on their website is because of the test shot leaks? By the time Hasbro
> updated their website with upcoming info, the majority of it was already
> know because someone had stolen a test shot and put it on eBay. Maybe
> they figured "what's the point"? Maybe if all this leakage wasn't going
> on they might update it more?
Nope, actually Hasbro used to beat the test shot leaks when they still
were updating their website regularly last year. It was Hasbro who
first unveiled Alternators Hound and Silverstreak on their website,
Hasbro had the scoop on Alternators Side Swipe at OTFCC 2003, the first
hint at blue Alternators Tracks was a listing in Previews, and Takara
had the scoop on Binaltech Smokescreen. Oh, and Meister was first
revealed by Mazda, and Hasbro confirmed the name in their weekly Q&A
before the first test shot leaked. It wasn't that we regularly learned
of new toys via eBay auctions until after Hasbro stopped updating their
website.
Hasbro had the scoop on Alternators Prowl at ToyFair. Hasbro had the
scoop on Alternators Optimus Prime. Hasbro had the scoop on Alternators
Mirage. Personally, I *welcomed* that. But when Hasbro feel like they
don't need to announce their own products anymore, test shots are
probably the only way to get a first look at them.
Don't get me wrong. I don't like that these things come out. I don't
like that these things are stolen (the ones that *are* stolen), and I
don't like that people waste their money on them. I have contacts with
several people who collect protos, and I've let them know that I can't
understand why they fork out their money for this garbage.
The one thing I don't like, though, is when the self-declared
unofficial Hasbro moral police is predicting the end of the world
because we get a look at a toy before Hasbro bothered to admit its
existence, even though Hasbro themselves have made it pretty clear that
they don't really care that much just as long as they can claim that
these things were not meant to be sold.
Sure, if you harrass them at conventions and bug them with questions
"BUT WHAT ABOUT TEST SHOTS! THEY'RE STOLEN, RIGHT?", they will say
"Uhm, yeah... please don't buy them, 'kay?" But unless I missed
something, they didn't ask *any* fansite to take down pics, or links to
eBay auctions, for test shots of the latest toy *a single time* past
2003. And I'm pretty sure it would just take a single e-mail by Hasbro
to TFW2005 and they would never report a test shot again. But they
never sent that mail.
So as far as I'm concerned, I don't support dealing with protos, I
don't link eBay auctions in public that are still running, but I don't
see a problem with posting a link to a fellow fan who acquired a test
shot by whatever means and shares pictures of it with the rest of the
fandom without a "BUY IT HERE!" option. After all, Hasbro have already
admitted that they have changed details on a toy after seeing the first
fan reactions to leaked test shots (10th Anniversary Waspinator's
Predacon logo anyone?). So despite the "theft" aspect (which Hasbro
admitted can't be proven in case ouf doubt), these things can
occasionally serve as marketing tools for Hasbro, intentional or not.
> This whole argument boils down to one thing. "ME ME ME GIMME GIMME
> GIMME IWANT IWANT IWANT!!!!11!11!" That's the only reason I can think
> of that people are so dead set against abiding by Hasbro's wishes and
> buying these things.
As I said: Hasbro only ever said "DON'T BUY THESE!" if you asked them.
They didn't put giant disclaimers on their website "DON'T BUY STOLEN
PROTOS!" or regularly sent out warning e-mails to websites. Hasbro's
policy is pretty much officially distancing themselves from these
things every once in a while just so they show they still care, but not
doing much else besides that.
> These people want to continue to do it and don't
> care about the consequences.
Which consequences? Hasbro changing the size of Waspinator's Predacon
logo because people didn't like it? TEH RUINOUS!
Seriously. These things have been leaking for YEARS, and the
Transformers brand is still running. Sure it's not the end of the world
today, but it sure could happen tomorrow, right?
> All they care about are themselves. It's
> ridiculous and sad that we have such people in our fandom.
I never bought a single test shot. I told the people who buy them that
I'd prefer if they didn't waste their money on them. But I don't think
the fact that these things still keep coming out after all these years
marks the end of the world just because I DARE looking at a photo of a
toy Hasbro haven't officially announced yet.
Steve-o Stonebraker
> But unless I missed something, they didn't ask *any* fansite to take
> down pics, or links to eBay auctions, for test shots of the latest toy
> *a single time* past 2003. And I'm pretty sure it would just take a
> single e-mail by Hasbro to TFW2005 and they would never report a test
> shot again. But they never sent that mail.
It may well be the case that they haven't been proactive about it since
2003. But even so... so what? Why should they have to remind people on a
regular basis that they don't like this? Isn't once enough? At that "fan
press event" or whatever it was called, they laid it out and said "please
don't show these". Most of the fansites consented at first, then
gradually started showing them again. So... being told not to do it
clearly isn't enough. Putting more time/money into stopping it may not be
worth Hasbro's effort, but that doesn't mean it's okay to ignore their
repeated statements about it.
Nevermore
Steve-o Stonebraker wrote:
> It may well be the case that they haven't been proactive about it since
> 2003. But even so... so what? Why should they have to remind people on a
> regular basis that they don't like this? Isn't once enough? At that "fan
> press event" or whatever it was called, they laid it out and said "please
> don't show these". Most of the fansites consented at first, then
> gradually started showing them again.
Hasbro promised to send out extensive guidelines to fansites telling
them what would be considered "appropriate" and what not.
Even though some sites, such as TFW2005, repeatedly ASKED Hasbro to
forward those guidelines as initially promised, Hasbro never answered
that request, lleaving fansites to decide for themselves what they
could do and what not.
> So... being told not to do it
> clearly isn't enough. Putting more time/money into stopping it may not be
> worth Hasbro's effort, but that doesn't mean it's okay to ignore their
> repeated statements about it.
You would think that ONE FUCKING E-MAIL saying "please don't show proto
pics anymore, we mean it", even an informal one by Aaron Archer to
Kickback, would be within Hasbro's time and budget restraints somehow?
You would think TFW2005 wouldn't show pics of leaked test shots of the
BotCon exclusives while having Alvarez as a staff member if there was
any real pressure from Hasbro and/or Master Collector to keep those
under wraps?
Pyre
>
> It may well be the case that they haven't been proactive about it since
> 2003. But even so... so what? Why should they have to remind people on a
> regular basis that they don't like this? Isn't once enough?
I'm going to go down to Wal-Mart and start punching people in the face
because I'm not reminded every day that it's wrong to do so. :-D
"Let's all pledge to make Daria's dream a reality!"
"You mean the one where people walking down the street burst into flames?"
Nevermore
Pyre wrote:
> I'm going to go down to Wal-Mart and start punching people in the face
> because I'm not reminded every day that it's wrong to do so. :-D
Well, if you were regularly punching people in the face at Wal*Mart and
Wal*Mart employees would stand by and not do anything about it, you'd
start to get the impression that they don't really care, wouldn't you?
Okay, let's see.
TFW2005 don't allow scans from the official Club magazine. Why? Because
Master Collector have asked them not to post scans.
TFW don't allow scans from Toyfare magazine. Why? Because Toyfare have
asked them not to post scans.
You'd think TFW would be still reporting test shot auctions if Hasbro
had actually BOTHERED just to send them ONE SINGLE e-mail saying
"please don't report test shout auctions anymore, thx"?
Hey, the staff of TFW were at BotCon, talking to the Hasbro guys. You'd
think TELLING THEM IN PERSON not to post pics of test shots anymore
would be within their time and budget restraints if it were actually
just remotely as big of a thing to Hasbro as you guys are constantly
claiming it is?
Let me tell you something: Last year, when I was still reporting eBay
auctions on my site, there were several visitors showing up in my
referrers with a "takaratoys.co.jp" IP. In other words: Takara
employees were browsing my site and noticed I was linking eBay auctions
for test shots.
I know for a FACT that some people at Hasbro are aware of the existence
of my site. Hell, I've even been talking to Hasbro Germany's previous
Transformers brand manager on occasion who was regularly browsing
German TF sites at that time just to make sure they were all fair game.
Guess what? I never received a single C&D order from either Hasbro or
Takara to this very day. Not even a nice e-mail saying "Hey, we like
your site, but don't post pics of test shots anymore". If I ever
received a single mail from Hasbro just asking me nicely to stop
reporting test shots, I'd do that in an instant.
But the only people I've EVER seen actively bitching about websites
posting pics of test shots were some people on internet message boards
who to the best of my knowledge had never officially worked for either
Hasbro or Takara.
Aaron F. Bourque
> Okay, let's see.
>
> TFW2005 don't allow scans from the official Club magazine. Why? Because
> Master Collector have asked them not to post scans.
>
> TFW don't allow scans from Toyfare magazine. Why? Because Toyfare have
> asked them not to post scans.
>
> You'd think TFW would be still reporting test shot auctions if Hasbro
> had actually BOTHERED just to send them ONE SINGLE e-mail saying
> "please don't report test shout auctions anymore, thx"?
Have you asked TFW?
> But the only people I've EVER seen actively bitching about websites
> posting pics of test shots were some people on internet message boards
> who to the best of my knowledge had never officially worked for either
> Hasbro or Takara.
So?
Nevermore
> Have you asked TFW?
I have asked Joe Moore about this a few months ago. He told me that
after that 2003 Collectors' Media Event, when Hasbro promised to send
out guidelines to websites and never did so, TFW repeatedly e-mailed
Hasbro asking about those guidelines, and Hasbro never bothered to
respond. So eventually, they figured that Hasbro didn't care, and thus
they started reporting test shots again, and Hasbro never called them
back on that one.
Joe also explicitly stated (in public, even) that both Master Collector
and Toyfare had asked them not to post scans from their magazines.
Pyre
>
> I have asked Joe Moore about this a few months ago. He told me that
> after that 2003 Collectors' Media Event, when Hasbro promised to send
> out guidelines to websites and never did so, TFW repeatedly e-mailed
> Hasbro asking about those guidelines, and Hasbro never bothered to
> respond.
Why doesn't Kickback ask his drinking buddy?
Steve-o Stonebraker
> Why doesn't Kickback ask his drinking buddy?
Assuming those rumors are true, I would guess that Kickback *has* talked
to Aaron about it, and I would then further guess that Kickback's policies
probably don't go against whatever answer her got. I still can't help but
think that Hasbro would prefer the auctions not happen (and not get
covered as news items), but it's possible that they have given up on
trying to prevent it from happening, as the impact it has on Hasbro's
business is probably quite small.
Personally, to me, it has always been a matter of principle. I don't care
if the impact is small, and I don't care if the legality is hazy rather
than definitely illegal.
That said, I think Nevermore has been making some strong points, and as I
mull it over I'm likely to shift to a stance more like his, where I am
still opposed to the auctions themselves on moral grounds, but I may not
hold it against the news sites if they report them. Hasbro's apparent
failure to follow through on promised "rules" for what was okay to post is
pretty significant, I think.
Nevermore
Pyre wrote:
> Why doesn't Kickback ask his drinking buddy?
Who says he hasn't?
Seriously... Hasbro have shown ZERO interest in enforcing a "no test
shot pics, please" policy in the past 2+ years.
You know how Hasbro have to actively defend their trademarks? Other
companies don't come and ask Hasbro nicely "hey, you haven't used the
Daytonus trademark in years, would it bother you if we used it?" Hasbro
have do something about it, or they lose the trademarks.
The fact that Hasbro haven't done ANYTHING about test shots other than
having a few eBay auctions taken down (which is the best thing to do,
in my eyes - as I said, I don't defend dealing with them, I'm just
making a point for Hasbro not caring about websites reporting them)
pretty much indicates that they DON'T FUCKING CARE. All the evidence
shows they don't care. They hardly care enough to display the public
image that they don't approve these things, but that's about it.
TFW have ASKED Hasbro to clear things up, and Hasbro never responded.
Insisting that this was a big deal to Hasbro and they were always about
to unleash a hoard of just lawyers because you dared looking at a photo
of a test shot is beyond hilarious.
Here's a quote from Might Gaine, a former Allspark staffer, posted just
a few days ago:
> Yeah. As much as people like to moralize about the issue, the bottom line is that Hasbro doesn't care. They've shown that consistently in their behavior for the last 5 years. I'm not sure if Kal already mentioned this, but IIRC years ago they told the big fan sites they'd be sending them guidelines about how they wanted prototype linking/posting/discussion dealt with, and they never actually sent those guidelines out or followed up in any way whatsoever. And if I'm interpretting that recent interview with Archer right, he really doesn't care about the ethics or financial impact of test shot-selling, just the quality of the toys being sold. They really have a nominal concern at best.
Nevermore
> That said, I think Nevermore has been making some strong points, and as I
> mull it over I'm likely to shift to a stance more like his, where I am
> still opposed to the auctions themselves on moral grounds,
As I said before: I don't buy these things, I would prefer if they
wouldn't leak out if they're actually stolen, I advise people who buy
them not to buy them, and I don't directly link the auctions because
those things could indeed be stolen. The only thing I've ever been
arguing about was the claims that Hasbro were strongly opposing any
public coverage of those things, which is not backed up by any evidence
aside from one brief hiccup in 2003.
> but I may not
> hold it against the news sites if they report them. Hasbro's apparent
> failure to follow through on promised "rules" for what was okay to post is
> pretty significant, I think.
See, Hasbro *have* occasionally intervened pretty quickly when pictures
of grey resin protos leaked out (Armada Overload, anyone?), but I guess
the difference in those cases was that the images in question came
directly from someone inside Hasbro, and the design was still not
covered legally or whatever, whereas toys that already made it to the
production stage (I'd say once the test shots start popping up at eBay,
the production run should already be in full swing) are pretty much
"done" legally.
Again, I very much appreciate when Hasbro beat the proto dealers (as
they are doing on occasion), but when Hasbro don't announce a toy to
the public until it pops up in retail, I see no problem reporting
"unauthorized" images without directly supporting the people profiting
from potential factory theft. There's a fair number of fans who buy
those things for themselves but share images of them with the rest of
the fandom - partly for bragging reasons, but also because they want to
give people a first impression of the toy.
For every fan bitching about the looks of an unfinished test shot, you
get another fan bitching about the first official Hasbro preview pics
who suddenly changes his mind when the first test shots pop up and
allow a better look at the toy. And then there's the people who bitch
about both the official preview and the test shots but suddenly change
their opinion for other reasons. Or those who wouldn't like it
regardless of whether they saw the test shots or not. So claiming that
public reporting of unfinished test shots drives people off the actual
products because they don't look attractive enough is lacking any real
evidence.
And finally, Hasbro admitted that they sometimes change some details
from the final toy based on fans' reactions to the test shots. So -
stolen or not, against Hasbro's wishes or not - in some way, those
things do indeed serve as free marketing research tools for Hasbro,
whether intentional or not.
Bainreese
Steve-o Stonebraker wrote:
> > http://www.tformers.com/article.php?sid=5044
>
> It wasn't clear to me how to take that, actually.
>
> The way it's reported leaves a lot of ambiguity, especially since the
> answers have been paraphrased. > --
> Steve Stonebraker | http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~sstoneb/
> sst...@gmail.com | Transformers, astrophysics, comics, games, cartoons.
The only reason that the comments are not in quotes are because I did
not take dictation while we were speaking. The comments were Aarons
and they weren't vague because of being paraphrased but because of
another reason entirely which most Tfans never take into consideration.
The "legal" one.
I also have it on "extremely" good authority that Hasbro never got
around to giving the fan websites "guidelines" on Protos because after
consultation with legal, they could not legally defend an action
against a website when, given the user based forums that accompany such
websites, a prototype or test shot is posted.
Steve-o Stonebraker
> The only reason that the comments are not in quotes are because I did
> not take dictation while we were speaking. The comments were Aarons
> and they weren't vague because of being paraphrased but because of
> another reason entirely which most Tfans never take into consideration.
> The "legal" one.
Thanks for the clarification.
> I also have it on "extremely" good authority that Hasbro never got
> around to giving the fan websites "guidelines" on Protos because after
> consultation with legal, they could not legally defend an action
> against a website when, given the user based forums that accompany such
> websites, a prototype or test shot is posted.
I am very wary of statements that come from completely anonymous sources
that people are supposed to nonetheless trust. If you can't be any more
specific, I'll have to file this under speculation in my mind. Did you
hear this from somebody that works for Hasbro? Did a site admin tell you
this is what they were told when inquiring about the guidelines?
--Steve-o
Bainreese
Steve-o Stonebraker wrote:
> I am very wary of statements that come from completely anonymous sources
> that people are supposed to nonetheless trust. If you can't be any more
> specific, I'll have to file this under speculation in my mind. Did you
> hear this from somebody that works for Hasbro? Did a site admin tell you
> this is what they were told when inquiring about the guidelines?
> --Steve-o
> --
I don't mind you filing it under speculation. I would do the same in
your shoes. Had the contact not minded being identified, I would have
named them. I'm an anal tard when it comes to misinformation being
spread which is one of the reasons I approached Archer in the first
place about the Protos. Rather than believe what is spread about, I go
to the source.
That being said, and taking the comment on speculation...when
disserning information such as this, I usually look at the feasibility
of the actual information when the certainty of the source can't be
confirmed. A call to an attorney or consult with a lawyer that may be
on retainer does the trick. Simply ask them about culpability of a
company/website/etc. for publication of non-explicit images that are
public domain(read..posted by users.) Toys are hardly the only
industry where images of prototypes leak. Better yet, pick up any Car
& Driver, Motortrends, etc and take a gander when they get spy shots of
new protos. Some of those photos are taken while those vehicles are
parked on private lots. No legal reprisal can be had.