[BM] Real Heroes Use Guns
Neale Davidson
don't use guns." I guess that he considers my father, who has saved many
lives in his long carreer as a policeman... who has had to risk his life
every day for 28 years.. isn't a hero.
All those soldiers who fought and died for their nations weren't heroes. All
those who
ever used a gun to defend their families weren't heroes.
What makes a hero is /why/ someone picks up a weapon, not what weapon that
they
pick up. Bob Skir should stop watching Barney, and come to grips what what
being a
hero really is about.
--
Neale Davidson - TFN...@home.com
Keeper of the Protoform Project - http://members.xoom.com/TFNeale/index.htm
tri...@bellsouth.net
DreadWing wrote in message <381e3b98....@news.ucla.edu>...
>On Mon, 01 Nov 1999 23:20:38 GMT, "Neale Davidson" <tfn...@home.com>
>screamed to the world:
>
>>I'm angry with Bob Skir.. really angry.. for the first time. "Real Heroes
>>don't use guns." I guess that he considers my father, who has saved many
>>lives in his long carreer as a policeman... who has had to risk his life
>>every day for 28 years.. isn't a hero.
>>
>>All those soldiers who fought and died for their nations weren't heroes.
All
>>those who
>>ever used a gun to defend their families weren't heroes.
>>
>>What makes a hero is /why/ someone picks up a weapon, not what weapon that
>>they
>>pick up. Bob Skir should stop watching Barney, and come to grips what what
>>being a
>>hero really is about.
>
>
>guns, not Bob Skir, he has no choice and neither does Mainframe. Also, why
>does everybody blame Bob Skir? He's just the editor! Nobody blames
>Isenberg, even though he's also an editor (and the guns are not his fault
>either). In fact, it's not the story writers fault either (though I do
>wish they'd writer a little better... ;)
>
> In any case, I can live without the guns (though I do miss 'em) and
>the episodes are getting better. Hopefully, this trend will continue.
>Jetstorm rules =)
>
I've got to disagree to some extent, another Fox show, Big Guy has two
huge guns that come out of his elbows, and he is constatnly shooting
monsters with them. Not stunning, not wounding, he blows them away. If Fox
allows that, why not on Beast Machines? It's got to be Skir to some degree.
Look at Episode 6, Rattrap is moaning because he's not armed, so he goes out
and gets some guns, and suddenly he's one of the bad guys. At the end, he
only becomes a 'good' guy again by giving up those guns and going back to a
relatively powerless state. Also as stated above Bob Skir himself said "Good
guys don't use guns." not on behalf of Fox, but as his own opinion. I agree
with the first letter, it's not the gun that's evil, or through it's use
it's owner becomes evil. It's the reason they picked up the gun, and why
they use it that determines that. Maybe Fox, Bob Skir, and some of the
parent groups should come to realize that before they decide what can and
can't be on TV.
Ken
Mutate
gets the blame.. and rightfully so.
-=Arthur=-
...who caught that as well when he read the FAQ..
superspy
original post serves as space.....
Neale Davidson <tfn...@home.com> wrote in message
news:afpT3.5408$OS2.6...@news.rdc1.il.home.com...
> I'm angry with Bob Skir.. really angry.. for the first time. "Real Heroes
> don't use guns." I guess that he considers my father, who has saved many
> lives in his long carreer as a policeman... who has had to risk his life
> every day for 28 years.. isn't a hero.
>
> All those soldiers who fought and died for their nations weren't heroes.
All
> those who
> ever used a gun to defend their families weren't heroes.
>
> What makes a hero is /why/ someone picks up a weapon, not what weapon that
> they
> pick up. Bob Skir should stop watching Barney, and come to grips what what
> being a
> hero really is about.
> --
> Neale Davidson - TFN...@home.com
> Keeper of the Protoform Project -
http://members.xoom.com/TFNeale/index.htm
>
>
>
>
/superspy sits neale down, as he thinks he needs to take a few calming
breaths/
First off, I think you're taking this too personally. Secondly, the "no
guns" rule, at least in my mind, is a somewhat shady extension of something
that happened in "Optimal Situation." Remember Rattrap literally screaming
for OpOp to shoot Megatron when the opportunity presented itself? His
response (which I thought was the best part of the episode short of the end)
was something to the effect of "I'm trying to not resort to that!"
My point, Neale, and I do have one in this particular post <grin>, is that
Bob wants the Maximals to be able to use their wits and learned skills to do
the same job as a gun. Now, Rattrap's particular views towards
"noisemakers" notwithstanding, I really appreciate it. If, for anything, it
makes the battle sequences a lot more interesting. Look at Rattrap's little
jump and destroy stunt with the Jetstorm drones in Revelations Part I. Had
he done that with a gun, it just wouldn't have been the same.
superspy, who has nothing in particular to say in this space right now.
Kenneth Hillis
True, real heroes in real life like Policemen and such do use guns...
but I think that the point he's trying to make is that to be a hero, you
don't always need guns..... At least in cartoons and such. :P
Kenneth Hillis
huge guns that come out of his elbows, and he is constatnly shooting
monsters with them. Not stunning, not wounding, he blows them away.
First off, Big Guy And Rusty has in fact been put on hiatus. Even though
it was BEATING Kids WB in it's timeslot.
Second, as the episodes went on, I noticed that Big Guy used his guns
less and less. He tended to use his other weapons more, esspecially the
laser cannons that came out of his wrists.
Thylacine 2000
Bob Skir *NEVER* said the phrase "real heroes don't use guns." He said "*MY*
heroes don't use guns." Go to his website and see for yourself. The heroic
TransFormers *as he portrays them* do not use guns.
Bob Skir is well within his rights to re-direct the Maximal combat philosophy away
from firearms--*because he has been chosen by Hasbro to do so!!!* In much the same
way, FoxKids is well within their rights to edit out scenes from the show which
they own, it having been sold to them willingly and under no duress whatsoever by
Mainframe.
I must stress both of these points because some people seem to find that each of
these officially-mandated and, in my opinion, *wholly justifiable* positions are at
such strong odds with what they themselves perceive the TF mythos to be--with what
they perceive it *MUST* be--that anyone who deviates from that norm is a simpering
limp-wristed Beverly Bradybilly. The perpetrators' genuine motives are
inconsequential--all that matters is that they've done things people can yell at
them for.
Bob Skir did not even come *CLOSE* to impugning everybody's policeman/war veteran
great-grand nephew, or saying that Optimus Prime was standing right next to Harris
and Klebold. So let's all try to avoid jumping to conclusions, 'kay?
TTT, as if "political correctness," assuming it even exists or ever has, is such a
bad thing anyway....
--
T T T
Random Cartoon Quote of the Day (from memory!):
"That's why Father says she'll never get married."
--Zipporah's sister, after Zippora drops Moses down a well, "The Prince of
Egypt"
Zepherimus
TFG wrote in message <7vlgm6$18t$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>I have lots of heros, my father, grandfather, etc.... and NONE of them
>picked up a gun once. Whether someone uses a gun or not doesn't make
>them a hero.
>
>
>> What makes a hero is /why/ someone picks up a weapon, not what weapon
>
>god, i hope not. I have more respect for people that can solve their
>problems without picking up a weapon.
>
No , he's talking about a cause...You fight for what you believe in...This
doesn't mean you are a hero either but it means you take a stand. And to
think that every problem can be solved without violence is just ignorance.
WWII would've dragged on for several more years if the US hadn't
intervined. Might doesn't make right but it helps get the point across.
Brute strength ended that war and i'll kick any man that thinks otherwise.
Zepherimus
M Sipher
> I'm angry with Bob Skir.. really angry.. for the first time. "Real Heroes
> don't use guns." I guess that he considers my father, who has saved many
> lives in his long carreer as a policeman... who has had to risk his life
> every day for 28 years.. isn't a hero.
>
> All those soldiers who fought and died for their nations weren't heroes. All
> those who
> ever used a gun to defend their families weren't heroes.
>
> What makes a hero is /why/ someone picks up a weapon, not what weapon that
> they
> pick up. Bob Skir should stop watching Barney, and come to grips what what
> being a
> hero really is about.
I agree totally, and I've NEVER EVER fired a real gun in my life, and
hope I never have to. I can't add muxch on that aspect of this
discussion. But I can segue a bit...
This is one of the things that generally bugs me about Bob Skir. He's
got this near-masturbatory thing going on with his "FAQ" page. "Our
stuff is so great. We've got great stuff. OUR heroes are REAL heroes
since they don't use guns. Neener neener neener, we rock."
Is it just me, or does that seems REMARKABLY pompous, not to mention
REALLY disrespectful to their predecesors?
M "Grrrrrrrraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh..." Sipher
M Sipher
>
> On Mon, 01 Nov 1999 23:20:38 GMT, "Neale Davidson" <tfn...@home.com>
> screamed to the world:
>
> >don't use guns." I guess that he considers my father, who has saved many
> >lives in his long carreer as a policeman... who has had to risk his life
> >every day for 28 years.. isn't a hero.
(snip)
> Ok, for the Nth time... It's Fox Kids that's making the rules about
> guns, not Bob Skir, he has no choice and neither does Mainframe.
It's not the fact that the Maximals don't use guns in the show he's
pissed at. He's pissed at the wording of Bob's "explanation" as to why
they don't, which I agree is INTENSLY disrespectful and ignorant.
HAD Bob merely said "Fox Kids didn't want the good guys to use guns",
well, then, no real harm done. Instead he wraps it up in some "ain't we
sweet for taking moral high ground?" rigamarole.
Don't LIE to us, Bob. Then we just think YOU'RE the jackass for lying.
And we blame Bob because Martly hasn't said a damn thing.
M "Forward And DiTillio Were At Least Level With Us... And Had Their
Egos In Check" Sipher
TFG
picked up a gun once. Whether someone uses a gun or not doesn't make
them a hero.
> What makes a hero is /why/ someone picks up a weapon, not what weapon
so, are you saying that if someone picks up a weapon, they are a hero?
god, i hope not. I have more respect for people that can solve their
problems without picking up a weapon.
--
Thanks!
Matt
Transformer Graveyard
http://www.powerweb.net/palze
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Straight-Edge
differently, as a fan of GIJoe, and the grandson of a war veteran, I also think
it was insulting to them.
Heroes are anyone who will stand up for what they beleive in, or what they know
is right.
They needn't even fight. Just take a stand against evil, or simple injustice,
is enough to call them heroes.
Even with simple criteria, they are still a rare breed, and no one should have
the right to judge who is worthy of the title because of how they acheive their
ends.
Straight-Edge (Now Trademarked by Lanard Toys)
DestronX
Neale, I totally agree.
Heroes do use guns, but how they use them is the factor that makes them heroes
or not.
Such as, how the Nazis used their weapons for ethnic cleansing was not heroic,
however, our police who defend or streets and soldiers who keep peace in
foriegn nations due use their weapons in limit and maintaina respect and
honor.
Skir acts like if everyone disarmed right now, all would be well. Yeah. Thats
how things work.
My father was also a police man, and was shot in the chest by some fella in the
NY subway. Not only did my father not fire his gun beforehand, but he refused
when confronted because people were in the area. THAT is heroic. That is where
the use of a gun is in true meaning.
While I agree using guns is a natural definition fo the hero, if you use it by
shooting off in volleys, its not safe, and therefore, reckless and dangerous.
DestronX
"Nothing can be more contrary to religion & clergy than reason & common sense"
-Voltaire
"History oft defines savages with pitchforks as visionaries with cause" - Me
For new Bench Press TF promo art :http://animation.acmecity.com/collage/197
DreadWing
screamed to the world:
>I'm angry with Bob Skir.. really angry.. for the first time. "Real Heroes
>don't use guns." I guess that he considers my father, who has saved many
>lives in his long carreer as a policeman... who has had to risk his life
>every day for 28 years.. isn't a hero.
>
>All those soldiers who fought and died for their nations weren't heroes. All
>those who
>ever used a gun to defend their families weren't heroes.
>
>What makes a hero is /why/ someone picks up a weapon, not what weapon that
>they
>pick up. Bob Skir should stop watching Barney, and come to grips what what
>being a
>hero really is about.
Ok, for the Nth time... It's Fox Kids that's making the rules about
guns, not Bob Skir, he has no choice and neither does Mainframe. Also, why
does everybody blame Bob Skir? He's just the editor! Nobody blames
Isenberg, even though he's also an editor (and the guns are not his fault
either). In fact, it's not the story writers fault either (though I do
wish they'd writer a little better... ;)
In any case, I can live without the guns (though I do miss 'em) and
the episodes are getting better. Hopefully, this trend will continue.
Jetstorm rules =)
============================================================================
| DreadWing | "When you least expect it, expect me!" |
| drea...@spamscififan.com | DalNet #Transformers =) |
============================================================================
SLIMER1509
guns defines a hero. Rather, I think it would be more accurate to say that
"Real Heroes CAN Use Guns", meaning that to be a hero, one does not have to use
a gun, but that doing so does not make one any less of a hero. Just my
opinion. Guns, like all weapons, can be handled responsibly and irresponsibly,
it depends on the wielder.
And on a second note, I don't really think Skir was necessarily referring to
real people. It sounded to me like he was talking more about comic book
heroes. He did use the phrase "my heroes" IIRC. Course, I haven't read that
particular response in a while, but that is the impression that I am left with
since the last time I did. Show me I'm wrong, and I'll probably back down
quite easily. :)
DestronX
>the
>NY subway. Not only did my father not fire his gun beforehand, but he refused
>when confronted because people were in the area. THAT is heroic.
Sorry, I shoulda noted that my fathers in peak health now and is currently a US
Marshal. My apologies if I made it seem like he had passed away.
I never think guns solve problems, but at times they must be used for unique
reasons.
DreadWing
screamed to the world:
Hrm, now there's an idea. If one of the BM story writers wanted to
put in tons of guns into the show, he'd better slip the story to Isenberg
instead of Skir huh? =) heheh
The Wombat King
what he has to say in his defense.
I do however agree with the original poster, and I think Bob should have
thought about what he said before he blurted it out.
WK
SPOOOOOOOOOOOON
guns, not Bob Skir, he has no choice and neither does Mainframe. Also, why
does everybody blame Bob Skir? >>
I think everyone was ok with Fox Kids saying "no guns", but then Bob had a
remark on his FAQs, suggesting that if you want a hero with guns, read the
Punisher. This suggests that anyone who uses a gun is a psychopath, ala Frank
Castle. Not only is that sort of PC ignorance a slap in the face of any cop or
soldier in real life, it's an insult to Transformers' past heroes, like Prime
himself. Anyone with even a smidgen of common sense should be offended as hell,
not just by the worlds of a hack cartoon writer, but by the prevalence of this
mindset in general.
------------------------------------------------------
101 TOP THINGS TO DO AFTER WINNING THE $65M POWERBALL
#12: fund a new season of Reboot, so that Mairi Welman can
refocus on answering queries as to the coming of season five. <g>
BW Sidecutter
Tankorr shoot? In order to shoot at someone, be it with projectile ammo or
energy ammo, you have to ahve a gun. Whether that gun is built into your
forearms, shoulders, whereever, or held in the hand, it's still a gun.
Now 18 Million years old, and still thrashing Autobots!
BW Sidecutter
Visit my page (humble as it is) at Http://come.to/Sidecutter
Also, visit Beast Wars Collector at http://members.spree.com/jgabriel/BW.htm
BW Sidecutter
wouldn't have listed Tankorr and Jetstorm, except I was a bit distracted at the
time. Though, from a Vehicon viewpoint, Tankorr and jetstorm ARE heroes...
TFG
hero unless you have a gun". I don't know if that's the way he meant it
to come across, but that's the way i read it. My wife read it, and felt
the same way.
My point is this, guns, or any weapon, don't make a person a hero. His
actions in a given situation do. According to neal's post, anyone that
picks up a gun is a hero. That's not right. I do have to admit that bob
skir was wrong in saying that heros don't use guns.
> Brute strength ended that war and i'll kick any man that thinks
>otherwise.
ok, let me know when and where, and i'll have my grandfather show up.
He fought in that war, and your comment greatly upset him when i showed
him your post.
TFG
about guns:
Our heroes use their wiles and resourcefulness, plus a few cool
weapons. Guns? I've never been a fan of them myself, and do not write
heroes who need them. My heroes win by *not* firing a shot, but rather
using cunning. For those who like guns, go read the Punisher.
need i say more? Nowhere does he say that heroes don't use guns. He
says that "HIS HEROES DON'T NEED THEM". HIS HEROES does not equal ALL
HEROES or REAL HEROEs. for crying out loud.
> This is one of the things that generally bugs me about Bob Skir. He's
> got this near-masturbatory thing going on with his "FAQ" page. "Our
> stuff is so great. We've got great stuff. OUR heroes are REAL heroes
> since they don't use guns. Neener neener neener, we rock."
>
> Is it just me, or does that seems REMARKABLY pompous, not to mention
> REALLY disrespectful to their predecesors?
>
> M "Grrrrrrrraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh..." Sipher
>
--
Steven Acevedo
>>> What makes a hero is /why/ someone picks up a weapon, not what weapon
>>
>>so, are you saying that if someone picks up a weapon, they are a hero?
>>god, i hope not. I have more respect for people that can solve their
>>problems without picking up a weapon.
I agree. A hero's worth isn't measured by how many weapons they can
carry but to try and avoid a conflict UNLESS you can't get out of it.
It might seem fun to carry a gun because it looks cool but those
things do come with a price bigger than you can imagine.
-----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==----------
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Avias
me when I hear people going on about guns and how they shouldn't be used
in children's programming, without thinking of the alternatives...
When I was younger, my childhood friends and I would play
loosely-defined games vaugely based on the cartoons that we watched, as
did most of you, I'd suspect. When we played Transformers or GI Joe,
we'd find something that looked like a gun, make shooting noises at each
other, and then argue over who got who first. (And I'd also like to note
that no real guns ever entered into this, because our parents knew what
the term 'locked gun cabinet' meant.)
On the other hand, when we played games based on, say, Ninja Turtles
(back in the early days of that cursed craze), we'd pick up sticks and
good-sized pieces of wood and _bludgeon_ each other with them.
The other kids thought it was great fun, but I never did care for TMNT
after that.
--
Avias
"That's great! Whatever!" --Headmaster Cid, FFVIII
"If you need a gun to scare off prowlers, for your own sake, buy a
starter pistol. Looks like a gun, sounds like a gun, but it's not going
to splatter your teenager's brains on the lawn." --- Me.
Neale Davidson
>
> so, are you saying that if someone picks up a weapon, they are a hero?
> god, i hope not. I have more respect for people that can solve their
> problems without picking up a weapon.
I don't know how you misconstrued the meaning of my post here into the
worst possible way. No, merely having a weapon, being a gun, sword, or
energy-emitting forearms, does not make you a hero. If you use a weapon
just to use a weapon, then you're, at best, a fool.. at worst, a monster.
The point is /why/ someone would pick up a weapon, or choose not to. Who
would argue that McArthur or Ghandi were both heroes? Was McArthur any
less of a hero because he used a guns? Was Ghandi any less of a hero
because he /didn't/? It is about cause and sacrifice.
To bring it back to the TF mythos, though, are Optimus Prime, Rodimus Prime,
Ultra Magnus, Ironhide, et all all somehow 'less' of heroes than the Beast
Machines Maximals? Bob Skir's post certainly seemed to say that...
comparing
any hero who uses firearms with the 'psychotic' Punisher.
Neale Davidson
> hero unless you have a gun". I don't know if that's the way he meant it
> to come across, but that's the way i read it. My wife read it, and felt
> the same way.
You likely /told/ you wife I meant that, and she agreed. You are also the
only
one to have interpreted that post in that way, out of the many replies here,
and of the over 100 email messages I recieved in one day.
> > Brute strength ended that war and i'll kick any man that thinks
> >otherwise.
>
> ok, let me know when and where, and i'll have my grandfather show up.
> He fought in that war, and your comment greatly upset him when i showed
> him your post.
You wouldn't consider the military takeovers of Berlin and Bonn brute force?
Or how about the ABomb? Sorry, brute force is how wars are won, peroid.
Sometimes, it's needed, true. Often times, cause and belief make the
warriors
better warriors. But, in the end, it's about which side can kill the most of
the
other. That's the nature of war, and why it's a terrible thing.
My Grandfather fought in WW2. My Grandmother was a Gypsy who fled Hitler.
My uncle fought in Vietnam. My father served as a policeman for 28 years.
So,
would you really like to compare notes?
Neale Davidson
> weapons. Guns? I've never been a fan of them myself, and do not write
> heroes who need them. My heroes win by *not* firing a shot, but rather
> using cunning. For those who like guns, go read the Punisher.
>
> need i say more? Nowhere does he say that heroes don't use guns. He
> says that "HIS HEROES DON'T NEED THEM". HIS HEROES does not equal ALL
> HEROES or REAL HEROEs. for crying out loud.
His statements imply /heavily/ that his heroes are better than any others
because, to reiterate.. "My heroes win by *not* firing a shot, but rather
using cunning." To make it even wose, he adds the comment. "For those who
like guns, go read the Punisher."
It's an insult, pure and simple. This is Bob Skir saying quite frankly that
any hero who 'needs' to use a gun is less of a hero, and more of a
psychotic.
(I consider the Punisher a psycho, and never liked his comic, or the
character).
Besides, we all know that it's better to use blades and sticks to kill your
opponents, rather than guns. I mean, look at the way the 'heroes' act in BM.
Are they heroic? Not really. They don't try to save sparks. They don't even
think out their actions except to be angsty to one-another. All they seem to
accomplish is showing how violence, personal, brutal, hand-to-hand violence,
can be used to combat endless amounts of drones.
And, to bring a point closer to home. The only time the United States fought
a war the same way these 'heroes' did.. it was called 'Vietnam'.
Neale Davidson
do
> the same job as a gun. Now, Rattrap's particular views towards
> "noisemakers" notwithstanding, I really appreciate it. If, for anything,
it
> makes the battle sequences a lot more interesting. Look at Rattrap's
little
> jump and destroy stunt with the Jetstorm drones in Revelations Part I.
Had
> he done that with a gun, it just wouldn't have been the same.
It would have achieved the same results.. and it's still just as violent. In
fact,
Beast Machines is /more/ violent than Beast Wars. It's just that they don't
use
realistic weapons. In my opinion, the use of violence in BW was more
maturely
handled (usually) than so far in Beast Machines. In Beast Machines, we know
that
our 'heroes' (and I use the term very loosely here) cannot be hurt, or even
out of
action for too long, because of the style of show. But, hordes and hordes of
mindless drones can be graphically destroyed... IE, gratuitous violence.
Of all TF shows, though, G1 handled the issue of violence the best. It was
there,
it was needed, but it never went past that point. We didn't often see an
episode
with over half the footage consisting of battle. We do with Beast Machines.
So tell me, then... how are the Maximals heroes now? What have they done
that
was even remotely heroic? Just because they /don't/ use guns.. doesn't make
them heroes.
In fact, at this point, all the Maximals are high-traitors to the cause they
supposedly embraced. They /could/ have just captured Megatron already,
and ended the conflict. They didn't even need to destroy him... just disable
him... But 'real heroes' wouldn't do that? Every cop that arrests a
defenseless
criminal without violence must be evil then...
That is the message I get from Skir.
Neale Davidson
using
> guns defines a hero. Rather, I think it would be more accurate to say
that
> "Real Heroes CAN Use Guns", meaning that to be a hero, one does not have
to use
> a gun, but that doing so does not make one any less of a hero. Just my
> opinion. Guns, like all weapons, can be handled responsibly and
irresponsibly,
> it depends on the wielder.
You're right. I didn't mean to imply that /all/ heroes use guns. And that's
certainly
not the case. The actual post didn't imply that, either... just the poorly
worded
subject header.
> And on a second note, I don't really think Skir was necessarily referring
to
> real people. It sounded to me like he was talking more about comic book
> heroes. He did use the phrase "my heroes" IIRC. Course, I haven't read
that
> particular response in a while, but that is the impression that I am left
with
> since the last time I did. Show me I'm wrong, and I'll probably back down
> quite easily. :)
Yes, but the mindset is that 'Using guns is wrong, so my heroes won't use
them, because no hero or role-model should ever use a gun." His one
reference was 'The Punisher', who is a psychotic murderer. He didn't
mention the original Transformers series.. or the more poingnant 'Nam'
series from Marvel comics several years back.
It's an extension of some things that have happened in the Real World (TM)
lately. You hear of a terrible atrocity commited someplace, using firearms,
and suddenly you hear about 'gun banning' to fix that problem and go away.
I suppose the parents at Littleton would have been happier if their kids
were
killed with scimitars.... or if street gangs used maces and daggers (like
they
did in the 1950's). A gun is a weapon, nothing more.. it's the nature past
that weapon, in the wielder, that determines good or foul.
Neale Davidson
> guns, not Bob Skir, he has no choice and neither does Mainframe.
Bob Skir stated in no uncertain terms that he's in charge of the series,
and that the gun use was /his/ decision, not Fox's. Fox does have tight
standards for some things (fire being chief amoung them), but they
/didn't/ make this decision. It was Skir.
> Also, why does everybody blame Bob Skir? He's just the editor! Nobody
> blames Isenberg, even though he's also an editor (and the guns are not his
fault
> either).
Bob Skir has claimed creative control over the series, and has said
so in no uncertain terms. More than that, he spends a disproportionate
amount of time /saying/ those terms. Maybe he's really protecting a shy
and reclusive Isenberg from hate mail.. but I really don't see that.
If you're going to shove your ego into people's faces, then prepare for
deflation every now and then.
> In any case, I can live without the guns (though I do miss 'em) and
> the episodes are getting better. Hopefully, this trend will continue.
> Jetstorm rules =)
I made the mistake of reading that FAQs to see what direction the
show was turning. (The material I was given was already out of
date, due to some last-minute changes). I really didn't like what I saw.
Skir makes a /point/ of saying how this is 'his' Transformers series,
and that he's going to do things his way.
That's why he takes the flak. He claims all the 'credit' for the show.
Neale Davidson
> it was BEATING Kids WB in it's timeslot.
Heaven forbid that they keep around a popular show. I swear it's like
someone at Fox is deliberately self-destructing their kid's programming...
> Second, as the episodes went on, I noticed that Big Guy used his guns
> less and less. He tended to use his other weapons more, esspecially the
> laser cannons that came out of his wrists.
I noticed that too.. and am a little thankful because the massive cannons
with many barrells (TM) were kinda silly. I think that was the point,
though...
Well, I think that BG&R will wind up moving to WB anyway... at least I hope
so... Maybe WB will see the light and /cancel/ the Tweety and Sylvester
Mysteries and purchase BG&R instead. :)
Neale Davidson
"*MY*
> heroes don't use guns." Go to his website and see for yourself. The
heroic
> TransFormers *as he portrays them* do not use guns.
But they have in all incarnations before this one.. and now we're being told
by
self-same Skir that all of our heroes from Transformer's past were somehow
inferior to 'his'.
> Bob Skir is well within his rights to re-direct the Maximal combat
philosophy away
> from firearms--*because he has been chosen by Hasbro to do so!!!* In much
the same
> way, FoxKids is well within their rights to edit out scenes from the show
which
> they own, it having been sold to them willingly and under no duress
whatsoever by
> Mainframe.
In their rights, yes. So, as a Transformer fan, I'm supposed to bow down to
the
Mighty Skir and Fox and be grateful for the shlock shoveled out on me?
Sorry, but
no. I , as a paying consumer of their product, can chose not to go along
with that.
I can choose to demand better for my dollar. I can also freely criticize the
show. I
can also be insulted by a man who panders down to me.
> I must stress both of these points because some people seem to find that
each of
> these officially-mandated and, in my opinion, *wholly justifiable*
positions are at
> such strong odds with what they themselves perceive the TF mythos to
be--with what
> they perceive it *MUST* be--that anyone who deviates from that norm is a
simpering
> limp-wristed Beverly Bradybilly. The perpetrators' genuine motives are
> inconsequential--all that matters is that they've done things people can
yell at
> them for.
Or, more correctly, that the new blood don't give one whit about the
existing fans
or the existing mythos, because they're too busy trying to capture that
'Power Rangers'
audience.
> Bob Skir did not even come *CLOSE* to impugning everybody's policeman/war
veteran
> great-grand nephew, or saying that Optimus Prime was standing right next
to Harris
> and Klebold. So let's all try to avoid jumping to conclusions, 'kay?
Yes he did. His comments were definately geared to saying that 'Guns are
bad, m'kay?'
Meaning that anyone who picked up a gun was somehow a lesser being in his
mind than to anyone who didn't.
> TTT, as if "political correctness," assuming it even exists or ever has,
is such a
> bad thing anyway....
Yes. Yes it has been around, and yes it is wrong. It is wrong because it
addresses
the ills of society by sugar-coating things and making them more 'socially
palettable'...
but does nothing to actually /correct/ the ills of society.
Neale Davidson
> carry but to try and avoid a conflict UNLESS you can't get out of it.
Not always even then. A Hero is someone who shows courage, and is willing
to sacrifice himself for what is right. The sacrifices may be his life, his
finances,
or what have you. It may be defying opression, or taking on incredible odds,
or just being there for someone who needs you.
Sometimes, it may mean picking up a gun, and defending those you care
about. Sometimes, it may even mean pulling the trigger and taking another
life. The act in and of itself doesn't make someone a hero.. but what drove
a person to those steps may.
A hero is defined by his character, not his weapons.
Neale Davidson
> got this near-masturbatory thing going on with his "FAQ" page. "Our
> stuff is so great. We've got great stuff. OUR heroes are REAL heroes
> since they don't use guns. Neener neener neener, we rock."
That really got to me, too. It's like he's thumbing his nose at his
predecessors
and at the older fans of the series. He /almost/ comes right out and says
that
"Transformers are /mine/ now, so deal with it." Then he goes on and on about
how great he and the show are, and how much sock-puppets were an influence
on his life...
SLIMER1509
>lately.
You definitely hit the nail on the head there.
>You hear of a terrible atrocity commited someplace, using firearms,
>and suddenly you hear about 'gun banning' to fix that problem and go away.
Right you are. Everyone needs a scapegoat when things like this happen. They
can't beleive that maybe the real problem was actually starting at home, right
under their nose. But that still doesn't make what happened in Littleton any
less of a tragedy, of course.
>I suppose the parents at Littleton would have been happier if their kids
>were
>killed with scimitars.... or if street gangs used maces and daggers (like
>they
>did in the 1950's). A gun is a weapon, nothing more.. it's the nature past
>that weapon, in the wielder, that determines good or foul.
That's an interesting point (about the scimitars and such). Of course, it
would have been better if nothing had happened at all.
superspy
Neale Davidson <tfn...@home.com> wrote in message
news:lWAT3.7330$OS2.6...@news.rdc1.il.home.com...
<my post snipped. formatting's screwy>
> It would have achieved the same results.. and it's still just as violent.
In
> fact,
> Beast Machines is /more/ violent than Beast Wars. It's just that they
don't
> use
> realistic weapons. In my opinion, the use of violence in BW was more
> maturely
> handled (usually) than so far in Beast Machines. In Beast Machines, we
know
> that
> our 'heroes' (and I use the term very loosely here) cannot be hurt, or
even
> out of
> action for too long, because of the style of show. But, hordes and hordes
of
> mindless drones can be graphically destroyed... IE, gratuitous violence.
Give Fox -- and the kids -- some credit. Anybody with half a brain would
realize that if a bunch of mindless drones were shooting at them, destroying
them would certainly be in the bounds of morality. The fact that they're
*mindless drones* should also be a clue in to the fact that nothing is
really getting killed when they're destroyed. As for the Generals? Well,
as we found out, if you incapacitate the General, the drones keel over and
deactivate. I never consider violence necessary, the Maximals are fighting
for their lives when they battle Jetstorm and co. But this is kind of a
tangent from your original argument, which has already been shown to be
based on your *interpretation* of what Skir said, which, in fact, is NOT
what he said in reality.
>
>
> So tell me, then... how are the Maximals heroes now? What have they done
> that was even remotely heroic? Just because they /don't/ use guns..
doesn't make
> them heroes.
no, again that's not what Skir said, nor is it what he implied. He said
that *his* heroes don't use guns. Meaning, that as far as he's concerned,
he feels that you don't need a gun to be heroic. He did *not* say that if
you use a gun you're not a hero! A gun is merely a tool that CAN be used
against evil. If anything, Bob is stating in an
oh-so-after-school-special-way that maybe you don't need guns to solve your
problem. Use your wit; use your instinct; be creative! Jeez, Tankorr kept
missing the maximals when he was shooting at them, but he managed to trap
them with one swift shot to some strange satellite dish.
> That is the message I get from Skir.
with all due respect, it's a pretty extreme interpretation.
superspy.
MasterShrink
I agree with you on this one. My Grandfather was a WWII vet, my uncle served in
'Nam then later as a NY City Cop and I remember him telling me several times,
and this probably saved his hide or someone else's by simply drawing not even
firing his gun. That was enough to scare the guy.
Anyone who picks up a gun just to pick up a gun isn't a hero. It's why you pick
up that gun that makes you a hero.
And M Sipher, I definitely agree with you on the count that Bob Skir's FAQ
seems extremely pompous. Has this guy once come out and admitted if anything
didn't work out with an ep or does he keep saying "it's all great!" when in
truth everything with this show has been far from great.
I mean this is just me but I'm a rather humble (actually almost never satisfied
with my own work) writer. I can say something I wrote is average at best, but
90% of the time I write something I look at it, and say "it still sucks but I
don't think I can get any better".
-Master Shrink
Interviewer (regarding teaching boy scouts to use guns): "But you're equipping
them to become violent killers." Lt. Gen. Reinwald (in
response):"Well, you're equipped to be a prostitute, but you're not one are
you?"
TFG
>
> You likely /told/ you wife I meant that, and she agreed. You are also
the
> only
> one to have interpreted that post in that way, out of the many
replies here,
> and of the over 100 email messages I recieved in one day.
uh, no. I told her to read your post, and tell me what she thought. She
came up with the same conclusion that i did.
> My Grandfather fought in WW2. My Grandmother was a Gypsy who fled
Hitler.
> My uncle fought in Vietnam. My father served as a policeman for 28
years.
> So,
> would you really like to compare notes?
sure. my grandfather fought in ww2. my father fought in vietnam. my
uncle died in vietnam. my other grandfather fled poland with his family
during ww2. I've got a list of 45 relatives that are unaccounted for
from ww2, and a few from vietnam.
so, preach all you want, there's nothing you can say that will change
my views on this subject.
TFG
>
> Not always even then. A Hero is someone who shows courage, and is
willing
> to sacrifice himself for what is right. The sacrifices may be his
life, his
> finances,
> or what have you. It may be defying opression, or taking on
incredible odds,
> or just being there for someone who needs you.
i agree.
> A hero is defined by his character, not his weapons.
that's my point. according to your original post though, you make it
sound like you need a gun to be a hero, or if you have a gun you're a
hero.
TFG
> But they have in all incarnations before this one.. and now we're
being told
> by
> self-same Skir that all of our heroes from Transformer's past were
somehow
> inferior to 'his'.
no. you're reading too much from a few simple sentences. he states that
he's not a fan of guns, and therefore doesn't write characters that
need them.
> In their rights, yes. So, as a Transformer fan, I'm supposed to bow
down to
> the
> Mighty Skir and Fox and be grateful for the shlock shoveled out on me?
> Sorry, but
> no. I , as a paying consumer of their product, can chose not to go
along
> with that.
> I can choose to demand better for my dollar. I can also freely
criticize the
> show. I
> can also be insulted by a man who panders down to me.
you can criticize the show all you want, that's your right. but it's
pretty low to cut down the people who write the show for their beliefs.
> Yes he did. His comments were definately geared to saying that 'Guns
>are
> bad, m'kay?'
> Meaning that anyone who picked up a gun was somehow a lesser being in
his
> mind than to anyone who didn't.
again, you are reading way too much out of a few simple sentences.
nowhere does he say guns are bad. he says he's not a fan of them. also,
keep in mind that his answers are geared towards a cartoon based
question. i'm sure his answer about guns would be different if the
question was about something real.
TFG
> I don't know how you misconstrued the meaning of my post here into the
> worst possible way. No, merely having a weapon, being a gun, sword, or
> energy-emitting forearms, does not make you a hero. If you use a
weapon
> just to use a weapon, then you're, at best, a fool.. at worst, a
monster.
maybe it was the way you worded your original post? I agree with your
above statement.
> To bring it back to the TF mythos, though, are Optimus Prime, Rodimus
Prime,
> Ultra Magnus, Ironhide, et all all somehow 'less' of heroes than the
Beast
> Machines Maximals? Bob Skir's post certainly seemed to say that...
> comparing
> any hero who uses firearms with the 'psychotic' Punisher.
this has nothing to do with optimus prime, rodimus, or any other
transformer then the beast machines transformers. Keep in mind that
when bob answered the question, he was ONLY talking about beast
machines. as for the punisher statement, take it as he says it. 'if you
like guns, go read the punisher'. no where does he say 'psychotic'.
you're reading too much out of a simple sentence.
TFG
> His statements imply /heavily/ that his heroes are better than any
others
> because, to reiterate.. "My heroes win by *not* firing a shot, but
rather
> using cunning." To make it even wose, he adds the comment. "For those
who
no it doesn't. his statements don't imply anything. if you feel they
do, you're just looking for something that's not there. There are many
ways a hero can win, and alot of them don't involve guns.
> It's an insult, pure and simple. This is Bob Skir saying quite
frankly that
> any hero who 'needs' to use a gun is less of a hero, and more of a
> psychotic.
> (I consider the Punisher a psycho, and never liked his comic, or the
> character).
it's not an insult. i can't see how you think it is one. all he says is
that HIS heros don't need guns.
> Besides, we all know that it's better to use blades and sticks to
kill your
> opponents, rather than guns. I mean, look at the way the 'heroes' act
in BM.
> Are they heroic? Not really. They don't try to save sparks. They
don't even
> think out their actions except to be angsty to one-another. All they
seem to
> accomplish is showing how violence, personal, brutal, hand-to-hand
violence,
> can be used to combat endless amounts of drones.
ah, so this is it. you're still pissed at the way beast machines is
turning out, so now you're attacking the writer. sad, really.
> And, to bring a point closer to home. The only time the United States
fought
> a war the same way these 'heroes' did.. it was called 'Vietnam'.
man, lighten up. it's a cartoon for crying out loud. if a few simple
statements from a writer(about a cartoon!) get you this worked up, i'd
hate to see what happens when you watch something that has to do with
the real world!
Scott E. Kampa
"Neale Davidson" <tfn...@home.com> wrote:
> But they have in all incarnations before this one.. and now we're
>being told by self-same Skir that all of our heroes from Transformer's
>past were somehow inferior to 'his'.
O_o Where is his post does he say "Optimus Prime is inferio to Cheetor
because he uses a gun"? You taking things he said addressing why he's
written the characters without guns and twisting them into general TF
bashing. You don't like it when others twist your words in reviews
where you give episodes average scores, saying you hated the episode.
Why do it yourself?
> In their rights, yes. So, as a Transformer fan, I'm supposed to bow
>down to the Mighty Skir and Fox and be grateful for the shlock
>shoveled out on me? Sorry, but no. I , as a paying consumer of their
>product, can chose not to go along with that. I can choose to demand
>better for my dollar. I can also freely criticize the show. I
> can also be insulted by a man who panders down to me.
Is Beast Machines really that bad without the lack of guns on the
Maximal side? It's not like their just poking eyes and kicking or
something...
I agree though, you can criticize all you want. Constructive criticism
definitely has it's place. However, this isn't some Skir-ian liberal
agenda to denounce guns as evil nor is it saying that those who use
guns, such as police officers or soldiers, as evil or less heroic.
Unless I'm way off, the toys don't have guns. Has Bob Skir infiltrated
the Hasbro hierarchy to achieve his "guns are evil" stance? No, he's
simply taking what he's given and keeping it that way, based on how he
personally feels about it.
He isn't asking you to pander to his worldview. He just happens to
work on a show that's being shown across the nation and 11AM EST.
Because he thinks that it would be nice to show that the "good guys"
don't *need* guns to win doesn't mean he doesn't feel guns have their
place. Have you asked him about this personally? Have you asked him
if he considers your father a non-hero because he totes a gun in the
line of duty? I'm willing to bet that he'd agree that your father
needs a gun to do his job and would appreciate the job he does. If you
have asked him, great. If not, stop putting words in his mouth. I'm
pretty sure you don't appreciate it when it happens to you.
From the beginning, since Oct. 12 when that FAQ update appeared, I've
never thought that his statement about not liking to write his
characters with guns meant "real heroes don't use guns". I've taken it
to mean just what he says...that *he* prefers to write characters that
rely on more than guns to fight. *You* don't have to agree and because
you don't does not mean he thinks cops are cowards.
> > I must stress both of these points because some people seem to find
that
> each of
> > these officially-mandated and, in my opinion, *wholly justifiable*
> positions are at
> > such strong odds with what they themselves perceive the TF mythos to
> be--with what
> > they perceive it *MUST* be--that anyone who deviates from that norm
is a
> simpering
> > limp-wristed Beverly Bradybilly. The perpetrators' genuine motives
are
> > inconsequential--all that matters is that they've done things
people can
> yell at
> > them for.
>
> Or, more correctly, that the new blood don't give one whit about the
> existing fans or the existing mythos, because they're too busy trying
>to capture that 'Power Rangers' audience.
Just because there are no chain guns o' doom? What the heck is wrong
with something a little different?
> Yes he did. His comments were definately geared to saying that 'Guns
>are bad, m'kay?' Meaning that anyone who picked up a gun was somehow a
>lesser being in his mind than to anyone who didn't.
Bob Skir *never* said that. *You* are implying that that is what he
meant based on those two sentences asking why the Maximals don't have
guns. *I* don't like guns either. I like that the Maximals don't need
machine guns to fight. I like that they have to rely on *only* on
their own skill and savvy. Does that mean I just insulted your father
and millions of other fathers and grandfathers, including my own? No,
I don't think so. You said in your original post something to the
effect that it's not what weapon you pick up but the cause you fight
for when you do. I completely agree, as everybody I've seen post has
as well. I'm almost willing to bet that Bob Skir would feel the same
way if you gave him a chance.
Scott, if he doesn't, well, shame on him, but that's still his
opinion...
--
-------------------------------------------------------------
"Enough with the chit chat. I'm feeling neglected."
-------------------------------------------------------------
sek...@hotmail.com
Thylacine 2000
Neale Davidson wrote:
> > Bob Skir *NEVER* said the phrase "real heroes don't use guns." He said
> "*MY*
> > heroes don't use guns." Go to his website and see for yourself. The
> heroic
> > TransFormers *as he portrays them* do not use guns.
>
> But they have in all incarnations before this one.. and now we're being told
> by
> self-same Skir that all of our heroes from Transformer's past were somehow
> inferior to 'his'.
No we aren't. He never uses the word 'inferior', nor does he even imply it. He
says they're *drastically different* and moving in a new style--I find nothing
inherently disrespectful in that. His throwaway comment about the Punisher was
just that--a throwaway comment. And frankly, I think he's not altogether
out-of-line.
> > Bob Skir is well within his rights to re-direct the Maximal combat
> philosophy away
> > from firearms--*because he has been chosen by Hasbro to do so!!!* In much
> the same
> > way, FoxKids is well within their rights to edit out scenes from the show
> which
> > they own, it having been sold to them willingly and under no duress
> whatsoever by
> > Mainframe.
>
> In their rights, yes. So, as a Transformer fan, I'm supposed to bow down to
> the
> Mighty Skir and Fox and be grateful for the shlock shoveled out on me?
> Sorry, but
> no. I , as a paying consumer of their product, can chose not to go along
> with that.
> I can choose to demand better for my dollar. I can also freely criticize the
> show. I
> can also be insulted by a man who panders down to me.
Trouble is, you seem to be *really* insulted, as in, *personally* insulted.
Indeed, there are folks in this thread who seem to see Skir's choices as a
slight to themselves and their entire families. I just see nothing--nothing at
all--which legitimizes their indignation.
Now, if you want to talk about criticizing Beast Machines and not mindlessly
accepting it--I'd say you should judge it by virtue of how the show *turns out*,
not by virtue of whatever motivated the producers when they created it. If
someone goes by the latter route--saying that BM is insulting and unrealistic
and un-American and P.C. because it's anti-gun--then they might as well say that
it sucks because it's animated in CGI and not cel art, or that it doesn't have
Peter Cullen and Frank Welker doing all the voices. It ignores whatever merits
or flaws the *finished show itself* might have.
> > I must stress both of these points because some people seem to find that
> each of
> > these officially-mandated and, in my opinion, *wholly justifiable*
> positions are at
> > such strong odds with what they themselves perceive the TF mythos to
> be--with what
> > they perceive it *MUST* be--that anyone who deviates from that norm is a
> simpering
> > limp-wristed Beverly Bradybilly. The perpetrators' genuine motives are
> > inconsequential--all that matters is that they've done things people can
> yell at
> > them for.
>
> Or, more correctly, that the new blood don't give one whit about the
> existing fans
> or the existing mythos, because they're too busy trying to capture that
> 'Power Rangers'
> audience.
That's highly debatable, and even *if* it's true, it's no tragedy as far as I'm
concerned. They are new blood, as you said; they're trying new things, that may
or may not work. But some people see fit to just criticize it because it is new
and different, without bothering to wait and see whether it is any good. When I
make fun of Beast Machines, I talk about how individual scripts or overall story
pacing leaves much to be desired--I don't say that the fact that the heroes
never use firearms means that the entire attitude of the show is unredeemably
tainted.
> > Bob Skir did not even come *CLOSE* to impugning everybody's policeman/war
> veteran
> > great-grand nephew, or saying that Optimus Prime was standing right next
> to Harris
> > and Klebold. So let's all try to avoid jumping to conclusions, 'kay?
>
> Yes he did. His comments were definately geared to saying that 'Guns are
> bad, m'kay?'
> Meaning that anyone who picked up a gun was somehow a lesser being in his
> mind than to anyone who didn't.
.....no. No, he really didn't say or imply anything of the sort. He has his
own preferences on how he wants to write the heroic characters, and the use of
firearms is one of many changes to the TF mythos he worked into the storyline.
You're reading much too much into a few brief and really rather milquetoastish
sentences.
> > TTT, as if "political correctness," assuming it even exists or ever has,
> is such a
> > bad thing anyway....
>
> Yes. Yes it has been around, and yes it is wrong. It is wrong because it
> addresses
> the ills of society by sugar-coating things and making them more 'socially
> palettable'...
> but does nothing to actually /correct/ the ills of society.
*shrug* I still say it's a fantasy, a boogeyman, and a Scarlet-Letter
scare-tactic all rolled up into one. I've sure never seen it, and I've looked.
I really don't think there is or was any such thing as "political correctness";
instead, there are different opinions which must be compared and contrasted and
justified and defeated by logical argument. I grow increasingly dismayed in
this day and age when people suggest that such-and-such is "P.C. bullcrap" and
expect that pronouncement to be of any importance to anybody.... as though
simply applying a label, any label, to an opinion is enough to discredit it.
--
T T T
Random Cartoon Quote of the Day (from memory!):
"Further resistance is not only futile, it's stupid!"
--Magmar, "GoBots: Battle of the Rock Lords"
Zepherimus
>> got this near-masturbatory thing going on with his "FAQ" page. "Our
>> stuff is so great. We've got great stuff. OUR heroes are REAL heroes
>> since they don't use guns. Neener neener neener, we rock."
>
>That really got to me, too. It's like he's thumbing his nose at his
>predecessors
>and at the older fans of the series. He /almost/ comes right out and says
>that
>"Transformers are /mine/ now, so deal with it." Then he goes on and on
about
>how great he and the show are, and how much sock-puppets were an influence
>on his life...
>--
I left that FAQ thinking the same thing. It's my show , Im going to do it my
way and to hell with the past. The man is a dick , he is a shitty writer
with the skills of a 12 year old ( sorry to all you 12 yo out there ) He
wouldn't know a good script if it bit him in the ass. My characters , my
heroes, my show... I hope he gets hit by MotorMaster .
Zepherimus
Who realizes the preceeding post was childish but thats the way I feel.
Prime Saber
>
> I wouldn't necessarily say "Real Heroes Use Guns" as that implies that using
> guns defines a hero. Rather, I think it would be more accurate to say that
> "Real Heroes CAN Use Guns", meaning that to be a hero, one does not have to
> use a gun, but that doing so does not make one any less of a hero.
Agreed. For a precedent, in Transformers: Victory, Star Saber hardly ever
used his gun, relying almost strictly on his sword. Heck, even God Ginrai
for some reason took a fetish to using a sword, even though he used to
blast enemies with his loads of guns before in the Masterforce series.
By contrast, Deszaras using his big Gun did him in. :( God Ginrai
didn't even use any of the guns on him except for that shoulder missile
launcher, but that could have been Godbomber's side taking over for him
while he was...preoccupied.
Coincidentally, Deszaras was a dragon TF, and God Ginrai was too dependent
on his Godmaster protective armor to protect him and repair everything,
very similar to some characters in the current series...
Tony Li, the Prime Saber, if Primal gets rebuilt, watch out, Megatron! ;)
Index page to the Japanese and Beast Wars Transformers, including
pictures, videos, and my own models of Galvatron and God Ginrai --
http://www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/manwood/484/TF/TF.html
MasterShrink
>
>Another 9 civilians shot dead in Germany and the USA this week. Now, those
>guys
>with guns are the real heroes....</sarcasm>
GB are you one of those people who say "guns are all evil! ban guns!" you miss
the whole point of this debate.
The whole damn point of this conversation is a hero CAN be someone who uses a
gun. In the past people have took up arms so we'd have the freedom today to
talk about a show and a bunch of toys.
Is someone who picks a gun up just to blow away a guy a hero? No. But someone
who picked up a gun and charged across the beaches at Normandy, or is a police
officer who uses it to stop an armed criminal on the streets of Chicago are
heroes.
It's the reason why you pick the gun up. And if that's how that hero has chosen
to protect us, then it does not make them less of a hero.
-Master Shrink
Dan Perlberger
You should know that a gun (or any weapon) doesn't make a hero...it's the
person that makes a hero. So if Bob Skir said that "real heroes don't use
guns", it just means that real heroes don't have to rely on a weapon to be a
hero. I'm sure your father and all other police officers would still be
heroes without their guns.
Dan
Neale Davidson <tfn...@home.com> wrote in message
news:afpT3.5408$OS2.6...@news.rdc1.il.home.com...
> I'm angry with Bob Skir.. really angry.. for the first time. "Real Heroes
> don't use guns." I guess that he considers my father, who has saved many
> lives in his long carreer as a policeman... who has had to risk his life
> every day for 28 years.. isn't a hero.
>
> All those soldiers who fought and died for their nations weren't heroes.
All
> those who
> ever used a gun to defend their families weren't heroes.
>
> What makes a hero is /why/ someone picks up a weapon, not what weapon that
> they
> pick up. Bob Skir should stop watching Barney, and come to grips what what
> being a
> hero really is about.
Túrin
>
> this has nothing to do with optimus prime, rodimus, or any other
> transformer then the beast machines transformers. Keep in mind that
> when bob answered the question, he was ONLY talking about beast
> machines. as for the punisher statement, take it as he says it. 'if you
> like guns, go read the punisher'. no where does he say 'psychotic'.
> you're reading too much out of a simple sentence.
Skir explained that "his" heroes wouldn't use guns. Then he said "For
those who like guns, go read the Punisher."
This is what is called an INSULT. It's basically the middle finger to
anyone who prefers Transformers with guns. "This is the way I'm doing
this. If you don't like it, get out." That's what he said. If you
want guns, go read a comic book about a psychotic killer, 'cause that's
the kind of people who use guns.
It was clear to me that Skir was actually kind of *pissed* when he wrote
that. He was defensive. He'd been crticised and took it as a personal
affront. So he struck back. "Oh yeah? If you don't like it, smeg off"
is what he said. I found that comment very arrogant and insulting.
Túrin
"In the country of the blind, the sighted can either put their own eyes
out, or go live in Antarctica or something."
Will Zuidema
> I'm angry with Bob Skir.. really angry.. for the first time. "Real Heroes
> don't use guns." I guess that he considers my father, who has saved many
> lives in his long carreer as a policeman... who has had to risk his life
> every day for 28 years.. isn't a hero.
I don't want to start a war, but merely give you something else to
think about.
First, we all know that Bob and crew are under tremendous pressure to
get this right with not only us, but Hasbro and Fox Kids.
Second, In trying to satiate everyone, Authors, politicians, etc. use
what is called a "blanket statement". These are usually geared
towards those people that are overly offended at simple things, etc.
The one drawback, is that these statements sometimes cut a wound with
those that are unspoken.
To try to defend Bob a little here, I think that this was meant more
to show that guns really were not a constructive part of the story,
that he was actually trying to say that people, like your Dad and
those that follow his trade are heroes WITHOUT NEEDING THE GUN. The
gun is necessary, but IT DOES NOT MAKE THE HERO.
[snip]
> What makes a hero is /why/ someone picks up a weapon, not what weapon that
> they
> pick up. Bob Skir should stop watching Barney, and come to grips what what
> being a
> hero really is about.
I think he should have maybe looked before he leapt, but I feel that
if you take the stuuf you said, and what I said, you'd REALLY get to
the heart of what he was trying to say..
Will
Thylacine 2000
r...@radiks.net wrote:
> But what Bob Skir DID say was that "Real heroes don't use guns."
No, he did not. He neither said nor implied anything of the sort.
He said that "my heroes" don't use guns. The heroes as he chooses to
present them. Big big difference.
This Bob Skir / "real heroes" stink is a totally false and insubstantial
net-legend. It simply *is not true*. Let us acknowledge that, correct our
misperceptions, and *MOVE ALONG*.
TTT, but he did say TransFans were mindless sheep....
Ed Whitmore
> > > What makes a hero is /why/ someone picks up a weapon, not what weapon
> >
> > god, i hope not. I have more respect for people that can solve their
> > problems without picking up a weapon.
Ummm...it's a fucking cartoon. Which, incidentally, is supposed to be a
sequel to two other cartoons about soldiers who used guns. Skir can have
whatever opinions he wants, but he's letting them hamper his cartoons.
SEAN
Slvrmist10
But this is slowly going even further downhill from a show that I will not
watch, to a show that if I had children I would not LET them watch....
White Dove
(who really hates P.C. bullslag in all its forms...)
Slvrmist10
>way and to hell with the past. The man is a dick , he is a shitty writer
>with the skills of a 12 year old ( sorry to all you 12 yo out there ) He
>wouldn't know a good script if it bit him in the ass. My characters , my
>heroes, my show... I hope he gets hit by MotorMaster .
>
>Zepherimus
>Who realizes the preceeding post was childish but thats the way I feel.
I agree with you on all but two points....
First off, I've met 11 and 12 year olds with much better writing skills than
Skir. You're giving him entirely too much credit...
And second, are you sure that being run over by Motormaster is enough? I'd
suggest feeding him to the Sharkticons, but he'd probably give the poor things
indigestion....
White Dove
(who also knows this is childish, but at least it's stress
relief)
r...@radiks.net
> Does your father's gun make him a hero? Or is it his courage and
> honor? You should know that a gun (or any weapon) doesn't make a
> hero...it's the person that makes a hero. So if Bob Skir said that
> "real heroes don't use guns", it just means that real heroes don't
> have to rely on a weapon to be a hero.
That is NOT what Bob Skir said! If Bob Skir meant you don't need a
gun to be a hero, he would have SAID, "You don't need a gun to be a
hero." That would have been a perfect response to the complaints
that the Beast Machines Maximals should have guns.
But what Bob Skir DID say was that "Real heroes don't use guns." In
other words, someone who is a hero is NOT someone who uses a gun. Or,
people who use guns are not heroes. That is not only a bigoted
statement (it casts people who use guns in a bad light SIMPLY BECAUSE
they use guns), but it's also incredibly stupid. To the fact that guns
are often used for evil means I say, "No duh." But many heroes would
not have been able to accomplish their heroic feats without guns. The
gun doesn't make the hero, no. Obviously. But the act of having a gun,
despite what Bob Skir said in plain English, doesn't by its own nature
make someone a non-hero.
Bob Skir even took his little dig a step further by insulting everyone
who disagreed with him by saying that those who disagree with him would
see the Punisher, a pscho killer, as a hero. Bob Skir needs to grow up
and learn to take criticism instead of resorting to nasty little digs
at his critics. It's hardly professional.
-- Neilast
http://members.tripod.com/~rak1/
I agree with the facts.
Pyre[Rock]
not and has not implied ANYWHERE that "real heroes don't use guns". Such
a statement is a COMPLETE fabrication made by those that are so fed up
with the way things are going that they must now reach for rediculous
notions in order to complain and if you truly think that he thinks such a
thing then you're reading too much into his statement. I can't beleive
the sheer rediculousness I'm reading here. Geez.
--
Pyre[Rock] - the...@rica.net http://home.rica.net/dcarson/therock/
TF Fancode: G++++ FR FW- M #150 D++ ADA N++ W++ B+++ OQP MUSH-- BC CN+++
-------------------------LONG LIVE DEATH CZARAS!-------------------------
Pyre[Rock]
>
> And second, are you sure that being run over by Motormaster is enough? I'd
> suggest feeding him to the Sharkticons, but he'd probably give the poor things
> indigestion....
Why is it that you complain in another thread about joking "death
threats", yet you make them yourself and agree with another's here? You
need to make up your mind on where you stand with this subject.
Slvrmist10
Sharkticons anyway.
And besides Bob Skir is too much of a fatheaded egotist to have Post-traumatic
stress disorder or the basic paranoia that results from such.
White Dove
Deatha...@webtv.net
the colorado incident with the guns from last year took a major blow to
all violence on movies,television & cartoons .
new laws are set up because of this incident in colorado , also keep in
mind that this beastmachines belongs to a network now.
beastwars had no network rules & guidelines to follow .
I think that bob skir is under the FOX KIDS NETWORK RULES & GUIDE LINES
.
I personally say -- > if there are no guns used , then can we have
some evenly matched wrestling type matces-- that last for at least 5
minutes .
similar to the depth charge & rampage fight scenes .
On the upside of things the last 6 episodes of beastmachines promise to
be very violent & action packed --- we will see if this is true or not.
TFG
>
> Skir explained that "his" heroes wouldn't use guns. Then he said "For
> those who like guns, go read the Punisher."
>
> This is what is called an INSULT. It's basically the middle finger to
> anyone who prefers Transformers with guns. "This is the way I'm doing
> this. If you don't like it, get out." That's what he said. If you
> want guns, go read a comic book about a psychotic killer, 'cause
that's
> the kind of people who use guns.
well, i don't see it as an insult. I guess people see what they want to
see. Seems people can't even yawn these days without insulting someone.
> It was clear to me that Skir was actually kind of *pissed* when he
wrote
> that. He was defensive. He'd been crticised and took it as a
personal
> affront. So he struck back. "Oh yeah? If you don't like it, smeg
off"
> is what he said. I found that comment very arrogant and insulting.
to each his own, i guess.
--
Thanks!
Matt
Transformer Graveyard
http://www.powerweb.net/palze
Neale Davidson
> necessary, I'm responding in E-Mail. Surely he was talking directly to the
> children, who as we all know, can't live unless they have the idea that
they
> need to talk about their problems instead of acting on them repeatedly
hammered
> into their heads by every grown-up they come across. But then again,
perhaps
> Mr. Skir really -is- working for Barney. When/where did he say that line?
I'm hoping Skir meant that, deep down. Sadly, though, he comes across as
an arrogant super-liberal who writes with an agenda rather than to
entertain.
Have you seen his Godzilla episodes? Similar things.. liberal messages sent
with a heavy hand...
You can't write good entertainment if your goal isn't to entertain, but to
preach.
And that's what I'm seeing more and more of with Beast Machines.
His line, BTW, was delivered in his FAQ on his web-page.
Zobovor
>This Bob Skir / "real heroes" stink is a totally false and insubstantial
>net-legend. It simply *is not true*. Let us acknowledge that,
>correct our misperceptions, and *MOVE ALONG*.
>
>TTT, but he did say TransFans were mindless sheep....
Damn, I was going to use that one. :)
Zobovor... Besides, some of my best friends are mindless sheep. Baa-aa-aa.
Steve-o Stonebraker
> A hero is defined by his character, not his weapons.
I agree. So, why do you care whether the BM TFs have guns or not? Skir
prefers to write heros without them. Big deal.
--Steve-o
Steve Stonebraker | alt.toys.transformers FAQ Keeper | Help end email spam!
srst...@bu.edu | http://astro.bu.edu/~srstoneb/ | http://www.cauce.org
Steve-o Stonebraker
> In their rights, yes. So, as a Transformer fan, I'm supposed to bow down
> to the Mighty Skir and Fox and be grateful for the shlock shoveled out on
> me? Sorry, but no. I , as a paying consumer of their product, can chose
> not to go along with that. I can choose to demand better for my dollar. I
> can also freely criticize the show. I can also be insulted by a man who
> panders down to me.
Man, Neale, can you get some new material? No one is expecting you to be
grateful for anything. Also, please explain to me how you are a paying
customer of Beast Machines?
> Or, more correctly, that the new blood don't give one whit about the
> existing fans or the existing mythos, because they're too busy trying to
> capture that 'Power Rangers' audience.
This, like most of your statements, is highly subjective speculation.
Please try not to state your opinions as irrefutable fact. If everyone
could get a handle on this, I think it would go a long way towards keeping
the newsgroup strife level down.
> Yes. Yes it has been around, and yes it is wrong. It is wrong because it
> addresses the ills of society by sugar-coating things and making them more
> 'socially palettable'... but does nothing to actually /correct/ the ills
> of society.
<sarcasm>
Oh, sure, obviously it is completely pointless to refer to groups of
people or ideas with terms that are not condescending or loaded with
negative connotations. I mean, we should all just talk about niggers,
gooks, and faggots. It doesn't make any difference what terms you use.
</sarcasm>
Kenneth Hillis
(Heh, I'm not too good at quoting thanks to the fact I'm using my WebTV
news reader at the moment. It doesn't quote the messages itself like
Deja. (which is currently not working.))
>>First off, Big Guy And Rusty has in fact been put on hiatus. Even
though it was BEATING Kids WB in it's timeslot.
>Heaven forbid that they keep around a popular show. I swear it's like
someone at Fox is deliberately self-destructing their kid's
programming...
*sigh* I know...... But that's not all. They also put Spider-Man
Unlimited on hiatus. Of course, they had it up against new episodes of
Pokemon. (something that FK just can't beat, no matter what.) Godzilla
also has been missing from the lineup for about four weeks or so. Both
have been replaced by Monster Rancher. And to add to that, Power Rangers
Power Playback: O-T-O was cancelled for, yep, Monster Rancher. Oy. -_-;;
>>Second, as the episodes went on, I noticed that Big Guy used his guns
less and less. He tended to use his other weapons more, esspecially the
laser cannons that came out of his wrists.
>I noticed that too.. and am a little thankful because the massive
cannons with many barrells (TM) were kinda silly. I think that was the
point, though...
Yeah, but after awhile, you had to wonder how he never hit Rusty or
civillians with those things. :P
>Well, I think that BG&R will wind up moving to WB anyway... at least I
hope so... Maybe WB will see the light and /cancel/ the Tweety and
Sylvester Mysteries and purchase BG&R instead. :)
Sylvester And Tweety...... man, I'm tired of that show. It would be nice
to see BG&R there, though...... Speaking of the WB, I have to wonder how
they got Men In Black, since it's currently owned by Marvel Comics, and
Marvel's shows tend to always end up either on Fox or syndication.
Kenneth Hillis
SLIMER1509
>Please try not to state your opinions as irrefutable fact. If everyone
>could get a handle on this, I think it would go a long way towards keeping
>the newsgroup strife level down.
>
This is about as absolutely true as true can get. When people post messages
trying to pass their opinions off as fact, it rubs others the wrong way.
That's how long, pointless threads that are nothing but arguing back and forth
are started. Very good observation Steve-o.
Túrin
>
> >
> > Skir explained that "his" heroes wouldn't use guns. Then he said "For
> > those who like guns, go read the Punisher."
> >
> > This is what is called an INSULT. It's basically the middle finger to
> > anyone who prefers Transformers with guns. "This is the way I'm doing
> > this. If you don't like it, get out." That's what he said. If you
> > want guns, go read a comic book about a psychotic killer, 'cause
> that's
> > the kind of people who use guns.
>
> well, i don't see it as an insult. I guess people see what they want to
> see. Seems people can't even yawn these days without insulting someone.
My opinion is that it was an insult. If you don't like my opinions, go
read alt.fan.bestiality.
There, did that sound jerky? It sounded like an insult to me. I didn't
mean it though. I was just demonstrating a point.
The reason it was an insult is because he's using the imperative mood.
The sentence necessarily elevates him to a superior posture, one where
he can tell you what to go do. "You: Go do this." Maybe you don't get
offended when someone sets themselves up as better than you and
justified in giving you orders. (There's nothing wrong with taking
orders. Just not from arrogant *self-appointed* superiors.)
Now, if you don't like guns, you wouldn't have read that sentence as
applying to you, so I can sort of see where some people may not get
offended. But I'm used to Transformers with guns, even though I'm not
remotely a huge gun fan, so it applied to me. It's obvious to me that
Skir was pretty pissed off when he wrote that. He was frustrated with
the criticism, and it came out as anger.
Túrin
"In the country of the blinds, curtain sellers don't make a good
living."
Trent Troop
right to hate the show so very fervently that none of us get even a moment's
break from it, but I do not respect your right to make accusations without
proper quoting.
What Bob Skir said, Verbatum:
"Our heres use their wiles and resourcefulness, plus a few cool weapons. Guns?
I've never been a fan of them myself, and do not write hereos who need them.
My heroes win by *not* firing a shot, but rather using their cunning. For
those who like guns, go read the Punisher."
At no point did he say that "real" heroes don't use guns. What he said is
above. I've watched one of the most digusting displays of misquotation and
subsequent conclusion jumping because of this post, and in all honesty, I'm
sickened. I was quite nearly convinced to leave ATT for a few months due to
this rash and unreasonable fountain of disinformation.
Also, he never said "heroes who use guns, go read the punisher" He said "who
like guns"... meaning that if you like guns, the Punisher is full of them,
which it is. I've seen Skir accused of everything from being a PC Anti-gun
freak to an unamerican dolt. All this because he doesn't feel that characters
in a fantasy situation must use large numbers of slugthrowers to be
entertaining. I used to think the fandom was , on a whole, rather reasonable,
with various exceptions, but a reasonable and calm group of people overall. I
am rather upset that I have to rethink this issue.
I think you should all sit back and think of all the things you've said and
done without first checking the facts. And no matter what he said, no matter
what he meant, it is irresponsible and biased to not quote exactly what was
said, without exemption or editing.
-Trent Troop
Questioning his faith in humanity.
---
Custom TF and Mecha computer rendering done for web pages, fanfic illustration
and more. E-mail for more information. Neot...@aol.com
Examples at: Http://members.xoom.com/BImagination/Trent/
"I'm not afraid of Dreams" - Goku
Trent Troop
>the
>Mighty Skir and Fox and be grateful for the shlock shoveled out on me?
>Sorry, but
>no. I , as a paying consumer of their product, can chose not to go along
>with that.
>I can choose to demand better for my dollar. I can also freely criticize the
>show. I
>can also be insulted by a man who panders down to me.
Isn't this about the point where you propose the creation of
alt.toys.transformers.beastwars.classic?
-Trent
M Sipher
> I left that FAQ thinking the same thing. It's my show , Im going to do it my
> way and to hell with the past.
That's not quite what I got. I just got the impression of a guy who
really dug the attention. Forward and DiTillio were MUCH more low-key
and level with us. I don't think they EVER hyped ANYTHING on the show.
I liked that.
> The man is a dick , he is a shitty writer
> with the skills of a 12 year old ( sorry to all you 12 yo out there ) He
> wouldn't know a good script if it bit him in the ass.
Now, here I must disagree, and not just due to the tone.
I've seen some GOOD stuff he's done. Not a lot, but that's just because
I don't watch much TV at all anymore. But what I HAVE seen of his
outside of BMAch I found enjoyable, and in the case of some of his and
Marty's SAM & MAX scripts, HILARIOUS and VERY intelligent.
Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be bleeding over to BMach.
And as for the whole gun thing... I really should have looked into the
actual quote. My bad. It was late, and I already had a negative
impression of the FAQ page (which I have rummaged through in the past,
which lead to my feeling s about Bob's "ego-stroking"), I goofed.
M "Personally, I Don't Care That They Don't Use Guns... I Just Wish
they'd Get Some New Moves" Sipher
or
M "Wait... What About Primal's Energy Shuriken? His Absord-And-Reflect
Trick? THOSE Are Projectile Weapons!" Sipher
M Sipher
> Zobovor... Besides, some of my best friends are mindless sheep. Baa-aa-aa.
I don't want to hear about that. I'm pretty sure it's illegal.
M "Of Course, Living Here In The Bible Belt, What ISN'T Illegal? Only In
A Drak Room Under Covers With Closed Doors and Windows And Curtains
Through Protective Glass Wearing Radiation Suits With A Note Of Written
Consent Authorized By A Notary Public..." Sipher
Ari X
> Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be bleeding over to BMach.
>
> And as for the whole gun thing... I really should have looked into the
> actual quote. My bad. It was late, and I already had a negative
> impression of the FAQ page (which I have rummaged through in the past,
> which lead to my feeling s about Bob's "ego-stroking"), I goofed.
Ego stroking? Considering half of the things printed on the FAQ since
BM started have been in the "I hate BM, you've ruined Transformers, I'm
going to come to your house and throw toilet paper at your children"
vein, I wouldn't really call it ego stroking.
--
~Ar...@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8076/arix.htm
****************
Frankly, we shouldn't have had those interns. They're a pain in the
ass.
--Richard M. Nixon
****************
M Sipher
> Ego stroking? Considering half of the things printed on the FAQ since
> BM started have been in the "I hate BM, you've ruined Transformers, I'm
> going to come to your house and throw toilet paper at your children"
> vein, I wouldn't really call it ego stroking.
I'm talking about what Bob writes about their work. "We got great stuff
coming up, our stuff kicks ass..." He seemed to spend more time hyping
what's coming up than writing it.
M "Sorry, But Hype Bugs Me. On That Note, Anyone Noticing Some Real
Irony In Tonight's SOUTH PARK In Terms Of Hype?" Sipher
TFG
> My opinion is that it was an insult. If you don't like my opinions,
>go
> read alt.fan.bestiality.
>
> There, did that sound jerky? It sounded like an insult to me. I
didn't
> mean it though. I was just demonstrating a point.
to tell the truth, it didn't sound jerky to me. it made no sense at
all. :)
> The reason it was an insult is because he's using the imperative
mood.
it's not an insult to me. the only way something can become an insult,
is if you let it.
> The sentence necessarily elevates him to a superior posture, one where
> he can tell you what to go do. "You: Go do this." Maybe you don't
get
> offended when someone sets themselves up as better than you and
> justified in giving you orders. (There's nothing wrong with taking
> orders. Just not from arrogant *self-appointed* superiors.)
if someone sets themselves above you, it's because you let them.
> Now, if you don't like guns, you wouldn't have read that sentence as
> applying to you, so I can sort of see where some people may not get
> offended. But I'm used to Transformers with guns, even though I'm not
> remotely a huge gun fan, so it applied to me. It's obvious to me that
> Skir was pretty pissed off when he wrote that. He was frustrated with
> the criticism, and it came out as anger.
personally, i have no real opinion on guns. I'm not for them, i'm not
against them. I don't own one, cause i've never need one. i don't hunt,
and i live in a safe city. As for skir being angry, if he really was, i
kinda doubt he'd have put that answer in the faq.
Zobovor
> A hero is defined by his character, not his weapons.
...Which is summed up in one sentence what took me an incredibly lengthy
dissertation to say. What can I say? I'm verbose...
Zobovor... you might even say lexiphanic in my phraseology...
Neale Davidson
> Isn't this about the point where you propose the creation of
> alt.toys.transformers.beastwars.classic?
Funny. When the first major ATT split occured, though, I had been one of
the few to say a seperate 'Beast Wars' group would likely have been a
good idea at the time...
Laurie Edwards
I thought that was a family secret we don't tell ANYONE about, dear...
It's cold outside, there's no kind of atmosphere...all alone, more or
less...take me far, far away from here.....
endo...@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/endora60/history.html
White Cat
Thylacine 2000 <gre...@NOSPAMfas.harvard.edu> wrote:
>
>
> r...@radiks.net wrote:
>
> > But what Bob Skir DID say was that "Real heroes don't use guns."
>
> No, he did not. He neither said nor implied anything of the sort.
He didn't say it. He _definitely_ implied it.
> He said that "my heroes" don't use guns. The heroes as he chooses to
> present them. Big big difference.
That was actually my first beef with that paragraph. He seems to be
claiming that Optimus & Co. are "his" characters, when in fact he didn't
create them, he just inherited their usage. (And I don't think that the
BM people are nearly as out-of-character as most people.)
> This Bob Skir / "real heroes" stink is a totally false and
> insubstantial net-legend. It simply *is not true*. Let us
> acknowledge that, correct our misperceptions, and *MOVE ALONG*.
>
> TTT, but he did say TransFans were mindless sheep....
And while we're on the subject of things implied but not stated
outright...
--
( My real e-mail address is white_cat @ white-cat.net )