(OT) Rhino GI JOE DVD sets
Gregatron
original miniseries DVD set today. Of *course* the same crappy new
sounds that ruined the TF G1 DVD sets are in abundance, with no audio
options.
......f***.
Does the previously released, non-limited (bare bones) version of the
set include the original audio (in 2.0)???
- Gregatron
Jordan L Derber
Gregatron <brund...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Well, I took a dare and got Rhino's limited edition GI JOE: the
>original miniseries DVD set today. Of *course* the same crappy new
>sounds that ruined the TF G1 DVD sets are in abundance, with no audio
>options.
That's just great. I had a feeling they would do something like this.
Sigh... Why couldn't have Hasbro given their liscenses to someone more
competent? Even ADV, who continues to mess up on little things on their
anime releases to this day, would have been a much better choice.
The only TF DVD release by Rhino that isn't f*cked up somehow
was either the The Ultimate Doom or The Rebirth individual release,
whichever one didn't get copied and released as the other (I should've
seen that as a bad omen but I took their quick response to the situation
as a good sign. Too bad they didn't think it was worth it to re-do the
Season 1 box set and its incomplete film remastering and added SFX or any
of their other screw-ups.
I'd suggest a boycott, but I honestly don't think that it would do much
good as there are too many people buying these that don't know about the
screw-ups and don't care/don't notice them becuase they don't remember the
episodes well enough.
--
Jordan Derber, Uber-Otaku
aka H-K
aka Buster Darkwings, Evil Destron Fairy
Subtitler and Co-Organizer of the Japanese TF episode fansubbing project
e-mail: jsdst5 at pitt.edu
JDJF03
Um.. there is an option. It's under the extras section on each disc.
Jon-
Cartoon Quote-
"We stole man's fire and tried to hide it in our pockets"
"That was painful and dumb" - 2 Gnomes; Freakazoid ("Lawn Gnomes IV: Fun in
the Sun").
TheHasselhoff
> I'd suggest a boycott,
You want a BOYCOTT!!!?????!!!!??? Do you not realize that, without Rhino,
TF & GIJoe would almost certainly never come out on DVD? Nothing is
perfect. All of the Rhino releases have been great; you're letting the
imperfections ruin the entire experience.
Aaron F. Bourque
>> I'd suggest a boycott,
>
>You want a BOYCOTT!!!?????!!!!???
That's what he said.
>Do you not realize that, without Rhino, TF & GIJoe would almost
>certainly never come out on DVD?
So? What's better, never coming out or coming out all half-assed
crappy?
People are spending money on this half-assed crap. Rhino's
doing well. There's no incentive for them to do better.
>Nothing is perfect.
He didn't ask for perfect.
>All of the Rhino releases have been great;
No. They have not. First there was the decision to use
incompleted episodes. Then there were the sets that included
"jumpy" episodes.
>you're letting the imperfections ruin the entire experience.
Demand the best, says I. Kid Rhino is not the best.
They're not even among the better.
Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque
--
Women supposedly mature at a faster rate than men
If that is true, how come they live so much longer then . . ?
Nothing says maturity like transforming robot toys for ten-year-olds
http://members.aol.com/aaronbourque/cryotekwarning.jpg
Mr Director
"Aaron F. Bourque" <aaronb...@aol.commandment> wrote in message
news:20030513205713...@mb-m04.aol.com...
> From: "TheHasselhoff" jgi...@cfl.rr.com
>
> >> I'd suggest a boycott,
> >
> >You want a BOYCOTT!!!?????!!!!???
>
> That's what he said.
>
> >Do you not realize that, without Rhino, TF & GIJoe would almost
> >certainly never come out on DVD?
>
> So? What's better, never coming out or coming out all half-assed
> crappy?
>
> People are spending money on this half-assed crap. Rhino's
> doing well. There's no incentive for them to do better.
Half assed?!?!?!? Rhino's using remastered prints from the original 35mm
negatives!!! SO what if they tinkered a bit with the audio, it's a VERY
MINOR quibbble. The transforming sounds are still there, the original tv
music is still there, the commercial bumpers are there (find me ANYPLACE
where you can get those,) the voice talent is as we remembered it...this is
HARDLY half assing.
GO look at Classic Media's Godzilla 5 DVD boxed set if you wanna see
half-assing it.
>
> >Nothing is perfect.
>
> He didn't ask for perfect.
>
> >All of the Rhino releases have been great;
>
> No. They have not. First there was the decision to use
> incompleted episodes. Then there were the sets that included
> "jumpy" episodes.
I haven't noticed any jumpy episodes on my sets.
Jordan L Derber
TheHasselhoff <jgi...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
>You want a BOYCOTT!!!?????!!!!??? Do you not realize that, without Rhino,
>TF & GIJoe would almost certainly never come out on DVD?
I sincerely doubt that. They had already been out on DVD for years in
Japan, and there was already a resurgence in TF popularity long before Kid
Rhino even released their VHS tapes. If they never got the liscense,
someone else would have gotten it.
Nothing is
>perfect. All of the Rhino releases have been great; you're letting the
>imperfections ruin the entire experience.
For someone who is familiar with how the episodes were originally
presented, they can and do ruin the experience. And there will most
likely never be any reason to release the TF series again on any other
format; DVDs are pretty much as good as it gets for an old TV series like
this. So unless Rhino has a change of heart and goes back and fixes their
careless mistakes, these DVDs are what we'll be stuck with forever. Maybe
you might not care about the definitive versions of the TF show being
imperfect now, but you might somewhere down the road.
If I'm going to take valuable time out of my day to watch a show I've
loved for 4/5ths of my entire life, I don't expect it to be perfect, but I
want it to be as good as it can be and as close to how it was originally
meant to be seen. Which isn't what Rhino's giving us.
They might be able to sell their disgraceful DVD boxes to the masses, but
if Rhino can't make a better version, fans will eventually get together
and make their own DVDs that fix Rhino's mistakes. DVD burners are
becoming ever more common, and I already have heard of someone who's
making bilingual (English-Japanese) G1 episodes. Plus there are those who
will settle for foreign G1 DVDs, or VHS (even ones taped off of
broadcast instead of paying for Rhino's imperfections. Bootlegs and
pirated copies are becoming more and more common, easier to get, and
higher in quality for just about every form of home entertainment. If a
bootleg comes along that is superior in certain ways to Rhino's release in
addition to being cheaper and/or free, there will be plenty of fans who
will choose the bootleg over shelling out for Rhino's crappy discs.
I'd ratehr support an official company, but if they can't do it right then
they only stand to lose money from the fans.
Jordan L Derber
Mr Director <mrdir...@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>Half assed?!?!?!? Rhino's using remastered prints from the original 35mm
>negatives!!! SO what if they tinkered a bit with the audio, it's a VERY
>MINOR quibbble. The transforming sounds are still there, the original tv
>music is still there, the commercial bumpers are there (find me ANYPLACE
>where you can get those,) the voice talent is as we remembered it...this is
>HARDLY half assing.
In regards to changing the audio, instead of half-assed I'd call it
something along the lines of "wasting your time and money (and
don't doubt that they pass the cost to the consumer) by giving us
something that's unnecessary and unwanted."
Yeah, half-assed doesn't describe Rhino's disks at all.
>
>GO look at Classic Media's Godzilla 5 DVD boxed set if you wanna see
>half-assing it.
They might have been lazy about their releases, but did they make poor
uses of their resources, go out of their way to "improve" the movies and
not give the original version?
Jordan L Derber
JDJF03 <jdj...@aol.computer> wrote:
>
> Um.. there is an option. It's under the extras section on each disc.
Does it contain the added SFX that are on the 5.1 track?
Aaron F. Bourque
>Half assed?!?!?!?
Half.
Assed.
>Rhino's using remastered prints from the original 35mm
>negatives!!!
And it looks crappy.
Oh, sure, crisp and fresh. Certainly!
Crisp and fresh crap.
>O what if they tinkered a bit with the audio, it's a VERY
>MINOR quibbble.
That sounds like crap.
>MINOR quibbble. The transforming sounds are still there, the
>original tv music is still there, the commercial bumpers are there
>(find me ANYPLACE where you can get those,) the voice talent
>is as we remembered it...this is HARDLY half assing.
Woohoo, the transforming sound is still there. Yay.
::yawn::
The music is the same? Good. But it still sounds crappy.
Putting the commercial bumpers is standard operating procedure
in most animated shows on DVD (at least, it is with animes).
I would certainly hope that the same voice talent is being used.
Part of the charm of the original show *was* the voice talent.
But Rhino is putting *all this effort* ::coughcoughbullshit:: into it . .
. to make it look and sound worse than what we got 18 years ago
for free on TV? No thanks. Not worth my money.
Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque
--
Mr Director
"Jordan L Derber" <jsd...@unixs1.cis.pitt.edu> wrote in message
news:b9sbaq$kib$1...@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu...
> In article <FLhwa.27510$h42....@twister.nyc.rr.com>,
> Mr Director <mrdir...@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
> >Half assed?!?!?!? Rhino's using remastered prints from the original 35mm
> >negatives!!! SO what if they tinkered a bit with the audio, it's a VERY
> >MINOR quibbble. The transforming sounds are still there, the original tv
> >music is still there, the commercial bumpers are there (find me ANYPLACE
> >where you can get those,) the voice talent is as we remembered it...this
is
> >HARDLY half assing.
>
> In regards to changing the audio, instead of half-assed I'd call it
> something along the lines of "wasting your time and money (and
> don't doubt that they pass the cost to the consumer) by giving us
> something that's unnecessary and unwanted."
>
> Yeah, half-assed doesn't describe Rhino's disks at all.
>
> >
> >GO look at Classic Media's Godzilla 5 DVD boxed set if you wanna see
> >half-assing it.
>
> They might have been lazy about their releases, but did they make poor
> uses of their resources, go out of their way to "improve" the movies and
> not give the original version?
No, they had access to original source material, refused to use them, used
poor tranfers circulated in cheap VHS copies and released them without any
special features (this, BTW, after ANOTHER company, Simitar, released the
same film son DVD a year before WITH beautiful widescreen transfers, and
thanks to Toho, those discs were discontinued.) At least Rhino took prints
from original source material to give us beautiful video transfers. And
Rhino DIDN'T "change" the audio. Again, they added some sound efx here or
there, but the original transforming sounds, music, and voice acting is
still the same . The new sound effects do NOT hinder the experience as much
as people think they do, and this is from a guy who has the original
episodes on VHS tape taken from its original 80s run on TV. I DO AGREE that
it is wasting time and money to add new sound efx. That is something I agree
with, but it does not ruin (nor should it) ruin my or anyone else's
experience of reliving your childhood with these wonderful episodes.
If they did tinker with the music, voice acting, AND transforming efx, THEN
I'd scream bloody murder.
Jordan L Derber
Mr Director <mrdir...@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>thanks to Toho, those discs were discontinued.) At least Rhino took prints
>from original source material to give us beautiful video transfers.
In the case of season 1, the prints were incomplete and missing a lot of
important stuff. Rhino tried to re-do some of the animation themselves,
but they didn't do a very good job.
And
>Rhino DIDN'T "change" the audio. Again, they added some sound efx here or
>there, but the original transforming sounds, music, and voice acting is
>still the same .
Just because they only change the SFX and not the rest of the audio,
doesn't mean it's not changed.
The new sound effects do NOT hinder the experience as much
>as people think they do, and this is from a guy who has the original
>episodes on VHS tape taken from its original 80s run on TV.
I also have many eps on tape from their original airings, and my opinion
on the SFX is different. If I say that it does hinder the experience as
much as I think, who are you to tell me my opinion is wrong?
>If they did tinker with the music, voice acting, AND transforming efx, THEN
>I'd scream bloody murder.
See, that's just it. Where do you draw the line? What's the difference
between changing a couple things to butchering it? If something doesn't
need fixing, then it shouldn't be fixed in the first place, it doesn't
matter if it's something big or something minor.
Pyre
>
> So? What's better, never coming out or coming out all half-assed
> crappy?
>
I'll take not coming out. I refuse to buy them due to their flaws so they
might as well have not been released. Either way I lose so what's the
difference?
--
Pyre[Rock] - pyres...@crosswinds.net
http://pyresdomain.crosswinds.net/
"Nothing to gain, hollow and alone
and the fault is my own, and the fault is my own"
Pyre
>
> Oh, sure, crisp and fresh. Certainly!
>
> Crisp and fresh crap.
>
No matter how much you polish a turd, its still a turd.
Exatron
>> I'd suggest a boycott,
>
> You want a BOYCOTT!!!?????!!!!???
Why not? Rhino is intentionally releasing an inferior product.
It would even be reasonable to expect Rhino to replace the affected
DVD's with copies that lack the new sound effects at the company's
expense.
> Do you not realize that, without
> Rhino, TF & GIJoe would almost certainly never come out on DVD?
Do you realize that another company would have acquired the rights if
Rhino hadn't?
> Nothing is perfect. All of the Rhino releases have been great;
> you're letting the imperfections ruin the entire experience.
That's because these imperfections do ruin the entire experience.
Adding new sound effects to the stereo audio track was completely
unnecessary. To make matters worse, Rhino had previously said that
they wouldn't be adding them to the stereo track any longer. Anything
beyond adjusting the volume and cleaning up noise is completely
unncessary.
--
Exatron
"Strive for perfection even if others must suffer." - Hook
The important thing is not to stop questioning. - Albert Einstein
Mr Director
> In article <85jwa.27534$h42....@twister.nyc.rr.com>,
> Mr Director <mrdir...@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
> >thanks to Toho, those discs were discontinued.) At least Rhino took
prints
> >from original source material to give us beautiful video transfers.
>
> In the case of season 1, the prints were incomplete and missing a lot of
> important stuff. Rhino tried to re-do some of the animation themselves,
> but they didn't do a very good job.
From what I understand, the original negatives themselves had some opticals
missing.
>
> And
> >Rhino DIDN'T "change" the audio. Again, they added some sound efx here or
> >there, but the original transforming sounds, music, and voice acting is
> >still the same .
>
> Just because they only change the SFX and not the rest of the audio,
> doesn't mean it's not changed.
Ok, maybe "not changed" isn't the word, but neither is the word "ruined."
>
> The new sound effects do NOT hinder the experience as much
> >as people think they do, and this is from a guy who has the original
> >episodes on VHS tape taken from its original 80s run on TV.
>
> I also have many eps on tape from their original airings, and my opinion
> on the SFX is different. If I say that it does hinder the experience as
> much as I think, who are you to tell me my opinion is wrong?
Well, if we're gonna have to rephrase what we say, then YOU'd be wrong in
saying it hinders the experience. Correctly, I would say it does not hinder
the experience for me, and correctly you would say it hinders the experience
for you. We'll leave it at that.
>
> >If they did tinker with the music, voice acting, AND transforming efx,
THEN
> >I'd scream bloody murder.
>
> See, that's just it. Where do you draw the line? What's the difference
> between changing a couple things to butchering it? If something doesn't
> need fixing, then it shouldn't be fixed in the first place, it doesn't
> matter if it's something big or something minor.
The point is, it's not as dramatic as people are making it out to be. I
don't think it;'s worth a silly boycott, or anything. If it still bothers
you, that is your opinion. I guess we'll leave it at that.
By the way, for all we know, HASBRO approved of these changes (I assume they
still hold the rights to the original prints, if not Sunbow.) Why not blast
them?
Pyre
well, I'm rather worried about what they'll do to the BW ones too.
Mr Director
"Pyre" <pyres...@crosswinds.net> wrote in message
news:3EC1D005...@crosswinds.net...
> You know, after hearing about the screw ups made to the GIJoe DVDs as
> well, I'm rather worried about what they'll do to the BW ones too.
I guess we'll have to wait and see...
Elc
> "Jordan L Derber" <jsd...@unixs1.cis.pitt.edu> wrote in message
> > See, that's just it. Where do you draw the line? What's the difference
> > between changing a couple things to butchering it? If something doesn't
> > need fixing, then it shouldn't be fixed in the first place, it doesn't
> > matter if it's something big or something minor.
>
> The point is, it's not as dramatic as people are making it out to be. I
> don't think it;'s worth a silly boycott, or anything. If it still bothers
> you, that is your opinion. I guess we'll leave it at that.
>
> By the way, for all we know, HASBRO approved of these changes (I assume they
> still hold the rights to the original prints, if not Sunbow.) Why not blast
> them?
It seems people need a scapegoat. Whether it's Dreamwave and Pat Lee as far as
the comics go, or Rhino with the DVDs, there are people who will always bitch
about something. Sure, griping about the added sound effects is understandable,
but the whole boycott nonsense is idiotic. Those same people didn't boycott
Hasbro over the Cybernet Space Cube in Generation 2, which was *far* more
distracting, did they? Oh wait, those were "official" changes by Hasbro, so even
though they were annoying they're okay. How hypocritical.
Like the saying goes: "If you don't like it, don't buy it" and like I have said
in the past, I am willing to put up with some added SFX if it means replacing
barely watchable episodes on VHS with deteriorated sound AND video.
Sorry about the rant, I don't mean to sound like a troll but I'm just getting
sick and tired of the constant whining and bashing of Rhino. If you're going to
throw the whole "unfinished animation and added sound effects" argument to
support your hatred of Rhino, I'll simply point out how much worse the G2
Cybernet Space Cube was. At least the Rhino additions aren't as constant as the
CSC.
Gyumaoh
>Hasbro over the Cybernet Space Cube in Generation 2, which was *far* more
>distracting, did they?
Go fuck yourself. People here were _furious_ about the cube. There were no G2
episodes on video here TO boycott, idiot.
Gyumaoh
The added sound effects _DO_ detract from the "experience", especially when
they drown out dialogue.
Mr Director
"Elc" <no...@spam.ca> wrote in message news:3EC1D417...@spam.ca...
Excellent point. As a matter of fact, how come people here aren't bitching
about Transformers Armada being dubbed into English, and its original sound
effects removed for Americanization?
Mr Director
Actually, now that I remember, ALOT of people DID get annoyed with that
cube. I know I did.
Mr Director
"Mr Director" <mrdir...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:rTkwa.27550$h42....@twister.nyc.rr.com...
I should correct myself here. I didn't realize what was being talked about
in the above paragraph. I thought it was some UK thing or something, but
yea, it;'s the CGI cube that interrupted every scene change in G2. No,
people DID whine about, and good reason, too.
As a matter of fact, how come people here aren't bitching
> about Transformers Armada being dubbed into English, and its original
sound
> effects removed for Americanization?
>
This I still stand by if people are going to be claiming "respect" to the
original source materials, especially since the AMericanized ARMADA is
taking G1 character names for the new characters and using them as their
own.
Mr Director
"Gyumaoh" <gyu...@aol.combaticon> wrote in message
news:20030514015526...@mb-m11.aol.com...
In your opinion, of course.
Pyre
> If you're going to
> throw the whole "unfinished animation and added sound effects" argument to
> support your hatred of Rhino, I'll simply point out how much worse the G2
> Cybernet Space Cube was.
To which I would respond: So what. The point still stands that Rhino did
a piss poor job with these DVDs. Just as with the G2 episodes, they had
no reason to make the changes they did. The previous DVDs/tapes they put
out had little to no problems at all and it makes no sense as to why they
felt the need to change what was already working for them. If it ain't
broke, don't fix it. If you want to buy their product then you go right
ahead. I wont until they release a superior product instead. As for any
complaints I may have about their current product, as a consumer, I have
every right to complain if I'm expected to fork over hard earned money for
what I view to be an inferior product.
Pyre
>
> As a matter of fact, how come people here aren't bitching
> about Transformers Armada being dubbed into English, and its original sound
> effects removed for Americanization?
Because we're too busy complaining about the stupidity of the show to
worry about those things.
Pyre
>> If you're going to
>> throw the whole "unfinished animation and added sound effects"
>> argument to
>> support your hatred of Rhino, I'll simply point out how much worse the G2
>> Cybernet Space Cube was.
I'll also point out here that this isn't a fair comparison. We have to
pay money to view these DVDs. The G2 show was free. If we didn't like it
we could change the channel or watch the old taped episodes. With the
DVDs, we've paid for them and if we find something wrong, we have every
right to be upset about it.
Mr Director
> Mr Director wrote:
> >
> > As a matter of fact, how come people here aren't bitching
> > about Transformers Armada being dubbed into English, and its original
sound
> > effects removed for Americanization?
>
> Because we're too busy complaining about the stupidity of the show to
> worry about those things.
>
Touche!
Elc
It's good to see there are still specimens of the AOL=Idiots stereotype still
lurking around.
I admit I was in error about the reaction to the cube, but in the absence of G2
episodes to boycott at the time, there WAS a toyline. A little thought on your end
would have made that obvious connection, but I suppose it was too much to ask. The
show=toy commercial, after all.
Furthermore, just because there were no G2 episodes on video in your area doesn't
mean none existed. I happen to have three such videos, simply because they were the
only versions of the particular episodes available.
SirSTACK
>The added sound effects _DO_ detract from the "experience", especially when
>they drown out dialogue.
They don't drown out the dialogue for me. Perhaps you should consider coming
into the current year (or even 10 years ago), and invest in a Surround Sound
stereo system. The _ONLY_ way any of the Rhino added sound effects "drown out
dialogue" is if you're watching it with something like a 20 year old,
single-speaker, monaural based television set.
Most ironic about this whole thing, is most of the analcons calling for a
boycott never bought the discs in the first place, and are simply judging what
is done by what a minority is calling the biggest travesty since the Dead Sea
scrolls were reprinted in paper form, instead of on the original style of
parchment they were on to begin with.
As for the person who worried about Beast Wars coming to DVD soon, it should be
noted that, unlike G1, BW was always mixed in Dolby Surround. From the very
start. No need to add in effects for the sole purpose of enhancing the audio
when the audio is already enhanced. So, please, take your Chicken Little
impression and ram it far up where Unicron's engine thrusters don't shine.
Elc
> Elc wrote:
> >> If you're going to
> >> throw the whole "unfinished animation and added sound effects"
> >> argument to
> >> support your hatred of Rhino, I'll simply point out how much worse the G2
> >> Cybernet Space Cube was.
>
> I'll also point out here that this isn't a fair comparison. We have to
> pay money to view these DVDs. The G2 show was free. If we didn't like it
> we could change the channel or watch the old taped episodes.
Since the G2 version of the show was used to sell the Generation 2 toyline, a
better comparison would be to boycott the G2 toys. But, perhaps an even better
comparison would be to compare the Rhino DVDs to the G1 re-releases. There have
been changes made to the original moulds and packaging, and some of the names
have also been changed - yes, I am well aware of the reasoning behind all of
this - so why is it acceptable for these new versions of the toys to be released
without the complainers branding them as "inferior" products, not including the
overused "brick" label, and boycotting the entire line?
If the reasoning is because the changes are "official" changes made by Hasbro,
it's still no different than the changes made to the episodes on DVD, as they
are still *changes* no matter how official. They aren't, and will never be, the
"definitive" versions of the toys, but to newer collectors they will be.
> With the
> DVDs, we've paid for them and if we find something wrong, we have every
> right to be upset about it.
Yes, that's very true... at least for the consumers who actually did buy the
sets. But I would think it's a bit like beating a dead horse for people,
especially those who refused to buy the sets, to continually complain about said
problems.
I agree the animation anomalies in the 35mm prints for the season 1 set should
have
been passed over in favour of the broadcast masters, but Rhino chose to go with
the
35mm prints in order to get a higher picture quality in the restoration which,
apparently, they wouldn't have gotten with the broadcast masters. At least,
that's the impression the restoration feature gives.
Dirtyred
> Well, I took a dare and got Rhino's limited edition GI JOE: the
> original miniseries DVD set today. Of *course* the same crappy new
> sounds that ruined the TF G1 DVD sets are in abundance, with no audio
> options.
>
> ......f***.
>
>
> Does the previously released, non-limited (bare bones) version of the
> set include the original audio (in 2.0)???
>
> - Gregatron
Are the 5.1 sounds annoying, though, for a person with a system that they're
intended for? Just curious.
Ethan Hammond
Cause it will drive Snake Eyes mad with jealousy.
--
All Purpose Cultural Randomness
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/apcr/index.html
Dirtyred
> So who all is getting the upcoming Scarlett bust?
I've considered it.
Gregatron
*Whoooosssshhh!*
*pfasshhhh!!!*
*Whoooooooosssshhhh!!!*
*pfasshhhh!!!!*
TOMAX: "Inept!"
XAMOT: "Insufficient!"
(BOTH): "Inexcusable!"
- Gregatron
Exatron
> gyu...@aol.combaticon (Gyumaoh) wrote:
>
>>The added sound effects _DO_ detract from the "experience",
>>especially when they drown out dialogue.
>
> They don't drown out the dialogue for me. Perhaps you should
> consider coming into the current year (or even 10 years ago), and
> invest in a Surround Sound stereo system. The _ONLY_ way any of the
> Rhino added sound effects "drown out dialogue" is if you're watching
> it with something like a 20 year old, single-speaker, monaural based
> television set.
You're either lying or stupid. I've watched Rhino's Transformers DVD
sets on a fairly new TV and noticed that the new sound effects do
drown out the dialogue. When I noticed that something was a bit odd
about the audio, I checked both audio tracks and ran it through the
stereo in an effort to eliminate the problem, but the new effects were
still a sloppily inserted nuisance. Sadly, messages posted to this
newsgroup comfirmed that
Rhino's new sound effects are inexcusable and people have every right
to complain about an inferior product, regardless of what Rhino
apologists think.
Steve-o Stonebraker
> stereo system. The _ONLY_ way any of the Rhino added sound effects "drown out
> dialogue" is if you're watching it with something like a 20 year old,
> single-speaker, monaural based television set.
Uhhh... in my experience, at least, I'd say that no more than 10% of
households have their TV set up through a stereo system of any sort at
all. It is the norm, by a very wide margin, for people to get the sound
for their TV from the TV's internal speakers. I, for one, don't want my
mass market DVDs to be "properly" viewable/listenable only if I spend an
extra five hundred dollars on stereo equipment.
Anyway, am I the only person who thinks this entire thread is completely
stupid? Hasn't this whole "debate" already been hashed out in identical
form twenty times? Here, let me summarize the whole issue. Then, from
now on, when somebody wants to raise it again, we can just refer them to
this post:
ATTer 1: GAH! Rhino is the most horrible thing ever! The discs are
COMPLETELY UNWATCHABLE because of (choose one or more: the
saturation, the animation errors which were removed before
broadcast, the new sound effects).
ATTer 2: Oh please! You are clearly obsessed with complaining and are
unable to enjoy anything, ever. The changes they have made are
COMPLETELY BENIGN and do not impact the experience at all.
ATTer 1: Shut up! It is literally impossible for anyone to enjoy the
discs in their current state unless they know nothing about
Transformers and have never seen the material before. Therefore,
we should boycott. Rhino blows.
ATTer 2: Shut up! It is literally impossible that any company other than
Rhino would have ever been interested in releasing this materail.
Therefore, we should ignore any deficincies and thank them.
Rhino rules.
ATTer 1: You're the biggest idiot ever.
ATTer 2: So are you.
Unwaashedf Masses (silently): Or maybe people simply have differing
opinions on what constitutes a distraction and what doesn't, and
those opinions are all equally valid because there is no
objective standard on which to judge such things, and these
threads should never turn into arguments in the first place...
--Steve-o
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Stonebraker | Transformers FAQ Keeper | Astrophysicist
sst...@yahoo.com | www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~sstoneb | AOL IM: srstoneb
Xis
"Steve-o Stonebraker" <sst...@campbell.mps.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
> Anyway, am I the only person who thinks this entire thread is completely
> stupid? Hasn't this whole "debate" already been hashed out in identical
> form twenty times?
IAWTP.
Mr Director
"Elc" <no...@spam.ca> wrote in message news:3EC1FB63...@spam.ca...
There have
> been changes made to the original moulds and packaging, and some of the
names
> have also been changed - yes, I am well aware of the reasoning behind all
of
> this - so why is it acceptable for these new versions of the toys to be
released
> without the complainers branding them as "inferior" products, not
including the
> overused "brick" label, and boycotting the entire line?
Better yet, why is it acceptable for the crappy ARMADA cartoon to "borrow"
G1 character names, especially when the show originally did NOT have these
names?
Jordan L Derber
>Since the G2 version of the show was used to sell the Generation 2 toyline, a
>better comparison would be to boycott the G2 toys.
The show did exist to help sell the toys, but they are still separate
entities.
But, perhaps an even better
>comparison would be to compare the Rhino DVDs to the G1 re-releases. There have
>been changes made to the original moulds and packaging, and some of the names
>have also been changed - yes, I am well aware of the reasoning behind all of
>this -
Then why are you making this comparison? The changes to the re-releases
aren't made because Hasbro wanted to "improve" what didn't need improving,
the changes were done because of safety laws.
so why is it acceptable for these new versions of the toys to be released
>without the complainers branding them as "inferior" products, not including the
>overused "brick" label, and boycotting the entire line?
I do think they're inferior, and I sincerely doubt I will ever buy a US
re-release. That's more because of the price gouging than the safety
changes, however.
>If the rea
soning is because the changes are "official" changes made by Hasbro,
>it's still no different than the changes made to the episodes on DVD, as they
>are still *changes* no matter how official.
A change necessary to conform to safety laws and a change that was
completely unnecessary (at least in the case of the 2.0 track) are not the
same thing.
They aren't, and will never be, the
>"definitive" versions of the toys, but to newer collectors they will be.
Even those who are ignorant of the reasons behind the changes and don't
realize the originals didn't have the changes can still find them
annoying.
>Yes, that's very true... at least for the consumers who actually did buy the
>sets. But I would think it's a bit like beating a dead horse for people,
>especially those who refused to buy the sets, to continually complain about said
>problems.
I think it's even more pointless to complain about the complainers. It's
not like it's going to make them go away.
>
>I agree the animation anomalies in the 35mm prints for the season 1 set should
>have
>been passed over in favour of the broadcast masters, but Rhino chose to go with
>the
>35mm prints in order to get a higher picture quality in the restoration which,
>apparently, they wouldn't have gotten with the broadcast masters. At least,
>that's the impression the restoration feature gives.
Using unfinished masters is never a good idea, no matter how much you want
to make a pretty picture.
--
Jordan Derber, Uber-Otaku
aka H-K
aka Buster Darkwings, Evil Destron Fairy
Subtitler and Co-Organizer of the Japanese TF episode fansubbing project
e-mail: jsdst5 at pitt.edu
Elc
> In article <3EC1FB63...@spam.ca>, Elc <no...@spam.ca> wrote:
> >Since the G2 version of the show was used to sell the Generation 2 toyline, a
> >better comparison would be to boycott the G2 toys.
>
> The show did exist to help sell the toys, but they are still separate
> entities.
>
> But, perhaps an even better
> >comparison would be to compare the Rhino DVDs to the G1 re-releases. There have
> >been changes made to the original moulds and packaging, and some of the names
> >have also been changed - yes, I am well aware of the reasoning behind all of
> >this -
>
> Then why are you making this comparison? The changes to the re-releases
> aren't made because Hasbro wanted to "improve" what didn't need improving,
> the changes were done because of safety laws.
Yes, though changes are changes. I didn't have many of the re-issued toys when they
were first released, and don't have any re-issues because of the scarcity and price,
so I don't know if Jazz originally had a "Meister" sticker on his windshield. In the
same respect, people who are introduced to the G1 show through the DVDs probably
wouldn't be aware of exactly which sounds were added.
But, as for *why* I am making the comparison, we are expected to pay a fair amount of
money for each re-issued toy, and they aren't even identical to how they were in the
80s. The changes may have been made for safety reasons, but most of the re-issues
cost more than the current Armada toys, which are, for the most part - and excluding
the Mini-cons - bigger than the G1 re-issues.
You can also factor in that the ads, at least for the first wave of re-issues,
implied they were identical by depicting a G1 Optimus Prime in a beat up box sporting
an inflated secondary market price, compared to the re-issue version with the new
price. As with the DVD episodes, these *aren't* the original releases despite being
labeled as such, but the DVDs are seemingly bashed relentlessly.
> >I agree the animation anomalies in the 35mm prints for the season 1 set should
> >have
> >been passed over in favour of the broadcast masters, but Rhino chose to go with
> >the
> >35mm prints in order to get a higher picture quality in the restoration which,
> >apparently, they wouldn't have gotten with the broadcast masters. At least,
> >that's the impression the restoration feature gives.
>
> Using unfinished masters is never a good idea, no matter how much you want
> to make a pretty picture.
I agree, I was just stating what the restoration feature explained. I don't
personally agree with the decision to use the unfinished masters, but there's nothing
that can be done about it at this point. From what I understand about rights and
whatnot, there's nothing even Hasbro can do about the Rhino DVDs until their
agreement expires, unless there's a clause in the contract which states otherwise. In
which case, Hasbro would be as much to blame as Rhino concerning the quality of the
DVD episodes.
Elc
> Rhino's new sound effects are inexcusable and people have every right
> to complain about an inferior product, regardless of what Rhino
> apologists think.
If you've bought the Rhino discs, then yes, you do have every right to
voice your displeasure. But, if you've already refused to buy them, you
haven't sacrificed any money of your own, therefore you don't have that
same "right" to complain.
Why, pray tell, must people who don't loudly declare the new sound effects
as "inexcusable" be labeled Rhino apologists? We've paid our own money to
buy the discs, so don't we have the *same right* to enjoy the product
we've received?
Zobovor the Towel Technician
>So who all is getting the upcoming Scarlett bust?
>Cause it will drive Snake Eyes mad with jealousy.
You rock, Ethan. :)
Exatron
> Exatron wrote:
>
>> Rhino's new sound effects are inexcusable and people have every
>> right to complain about an inferior product, regardless of what
>> Rhino apologists think.
>
> If you've bought the Rhino discs, then yes, you do have every right
> to voice your displeasure. But, if you've already refused to buy
> them, you haven't sacrificed any money of your own, therefore you
> don't have that same "right" to complain.
That depends. I bought the first two sets and waited to hear what the
third was like in case there were any weird errors. When I found out
that the new effects were on every single episode in the season 2,
part 2 set, I decided not to buy it until the error is fixed. I have
every right to complain about the third set being inferior because
those new effects simply don't belong there.
> Why, pray tell, must people who don't loudly declare the new sound
> effects as "inexcusable" be labeled Rhino apologists? We've paid our
> own money to buy the discs, so don't we have the *same right* to
> enjoy the product we've received?
The problem is that they are also claiming that other people have no
right to complain about the new effects.
--
Exatron
"Do it with style or don't bother doing it." - Jazz
Mr Director
"Exatron" <exa...@NOhotmSpAMail.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2003.05.14....@NOhotmSpAMail.com...
Actually, some of us are complaining that those who can;t stand the new
sound efx are demanding a boycott. If you don't like the add ons, fine,
don't buy any more Rhino DVDs, but for people like me, the new sound efx
hardly detract from the audio at all and want to continue to enjoy the
Transformers experience.
Jesterinazz
can actually *remember* every single exact sound from the original series, I
have absolutely no problem with Rhino's "inferior product". And I can sleep at
night!
Packing Transformers Sucks.
ShadowWing
"Pyre" wrote
> You know, after hearing about the screw ups made to the GIJoe DVDs as
> well, I'm rather worried about what they'll do to the BW ones too.
Of the ones they've already released, I have vol. 1 and the only change
is using the Fox Kids-style closing (the end of the theme song and the
"Mainframe" logo at the beginning of the credits) rather than the original
"Power Block"/syndicated ones. Otherwise, no changes.
--
______________________________________________
| HEROIC AUTOBOT ^ ^ {ShadowWing} |
| AMONG MAXIMALS |()| { transfan} |
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|Function: /\ /\ str: 7.0|
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|form lies within." / --o-[]-o-- \ end: 7.0|
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|Transformer war. 00 cor:10.0|
|More information on line ^^ fire:5.4|
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|updated 8/16/2002 |
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
Hawk-Thorn
>>
>> The same ole' bunch of whiners wrote:
>>
>> Wah! The greatly improved picture and enhanced audio ruined
>> GI Joe just like it did the TF sets... Why is Rhino doing things
>> half-assed by putting a lot of extra effort into these DVDs?!?!
> Half assed?!?!?!? Rhino's using remastered prints from the original 35mm
> negatives!!! SO what if they tinkered a bit with the audio, it's a VERY
> MINOR quibbble. The transforming sounds are still there, the original tv
> music is still there, the commercial bumpers are there (find me ANYPLACE
> where you can get those,) the voice talent is as we remembered it...this is
> HARDLY half assing.
>
> GO look at Classic Media's Godzilla 5 DVD boxed set if you wanna see
> half-assing it.
Dude... take my advice and save your energy... most of this crew simply
want bunged-over VHS video with mono sound... You are not going to get
(most) of them to acknowledge the good stuff Rhino has done...
...trust me. I've been down this road already.... : )
-HT-
Ethan Hammond
>
> > So who all is getting the upcoming Scarlett bust?
>
> I've considered it.
Thats what I like to hear. *THUMBS UP*
Ethan Hammond
>
> >So who all is getting the upcoming Scarlett bust?
> >Cause it will drive Snake Eyes mad with jealousy.
>
> You rock, Ethan. :)
Thank you sir.
Ethan Hammond
of Snake Eye's sounds and he is the most popular
GI Joe character. Ah ha ha ha, ZING!!!!
Exatron
> Actually, some of us are complaining that those who can;t stand the
> new sound efx are demanding a boycott. If you don't like the add ons,
> fine, don't buy any more Rhino DVDs, but for people like me, the new
> sound efx hardly detract from the audio at all and want to continue to
> enjoy the Transformers experience.
I'm still waiting for the reason why you think some fans have no right
to call for a boycott. There was no need for Rhino to mess with the
audio in any way beyond cleaning it up a bit, and people are
understandably upset by what the company did.
--
Exatron
"Unyielding resolve has no conqueror." - Omega Supreme
Mr Director
"Exatron" <exa...@NOhotmSpAMail.com> wrote in message
> Mr Director wrote:
>
> > Actually, some of us are complaining that those who can;t stand the
> > new sound efx are demanding a boycott. If you don't like the add ons,
> > fine, don't buy any more Rhino DVDs, but for people like me, the new
> > sound efx hardly detract from the audio at all and want to continue to
> > enjoy the Transformers experience.
>
> I'm still waiting for the reason why you think some fans have no right
> to call for a boycott.
I already gave my reasons. Sorry if you don't think they're enough.
There was no need for Rhino to mess with the
> audio in any way beyond cleaning it up a bit, and people are
> understandably upset by what the company did.
>
Fine, they have a right to be upset, but some of them aren't saying a word
about how the US Armada series was ruined from the start by using G1 names
to characters who weren't G1 related at all, using voice and sound efx NOT
HEARD in the original versions. If you sdon't like it, don't buy it. But get
a couple of things straight:
1) there are PLENTY of fans who are satisifed with the boxed sets and don't
think the minor audio changes ruin the experience at all.
and
2)Rhino isn;t doing a DAMN thing with regards to audio changes WITHOUT
Hasbro's approval. Your beef is with Hasbro, NOT Rhino.
Pyre
>
> so why is it acceptable for these new versions of the toys to be released
> without the complainers branding them as "inferior" products
The difference there is that there's no way around those changes. They
HAD to be made in order for them to be sold here. Hasbro had no choice.
With the G1 DVDs, there was no reason at all for Rhino to add those extra
sounds. They could have left the sound alone and everyone would be happy
with it. If they wanted to remix the sound into 5.1, then fine, they can
do that, but that doesn't mean they need to ADD more sounds to do so. Did
Paramount do that when they remixed the sound from ST:TNG into 5.1 for
their DVDs? I don't think so. Rhino had no reason to do so and there was
simply no excuse for it. And KNOWING that there are complaints about it,
having been suggested that they at least not include those sounds in the
2.0 track, saying they'll follow through on that and then not doing so is,
IMO, inexcusable.
>
> If the reasoning is because the changes are "official" changes made by Hasbro,
> it's still no different than the changes made to the episodes on DVD, as they
> are still *changes* no matter how official.
Being "official" or not has nothing to do with it. Whether or not those
changes are necessary is where the problems lie.
> But I would think it's a bit like beating a dead horse for people,
> especially those who refused to buy the sets, to continually complain about said
> problems.
>
Perhaps so. I don't know. I just want to see them done right. I want to
see Rhino correct their mistakes. I WANT to give them my money so I can
have the G1 episodes on DVD to forever cherish, but I wont do that if
there are problems with them that could have easily been fixed, yet for
whatever reason, they can't be bothered to do so.
> I agree the animation anomalies in the 35mm prints for the season 1 set should
> have
> been passed over in favour of the broadcast masters, but Rhino chose to go with
> the
> 35mm prints in order to get a higher picture quality in the restoration which,
> apparently, they wouldn't have gotten with the broadcast masters.
I think they had the right idea in mind as far as that goes, and I'm glad
that they wanted to give us the best presentation possible, but I think
that once they saw the problems that existed with those prints, they
should have gone back to the broadcast masters instead regardless of the
quality. That still doesn't excuse the audio though. Where they got the
bone headed idea that they needed to add unnecessary sounds in order to
make a 5.1 mix, I have no idea.
--
Pyre[Rock] - pyres...@crosswinds.net
http://pyresdomain.crosswinds.net/
"Nothing to gain, hollow and alone
and the fault is my own, and the fault is my own"
Pyre
>
> Of the ones they've already released, I have vol. 1
I have those too and think they're great. What I'm worried about though
is the upcoming box set and any future sets they may release. Looking at
the way they've handled G1, and reportedly the new GIJoe disks, I'm
worried about how they'll try to "improve" what doesn't need improving.
By all accounts, their "Ultimate Doom" DVD was just fine, yet when they
released the Season 1 box set, there were several problems. I'm afraid
they may do something similar here.
Pyre
> So, please, take your Chicken Little
> impression and ram it far up where Unicron's engine thrusters don't shine.
>
Right back atcha, dick.
Pyre
>
> Fine, they have a right to be upset, but some of them aren't saying a word
> about how the US Armada series was ruined from the start by using G1 names
> to characters who weren't G1 related at all, using voice and sound efx NOT
> HEARD in the original versions.
Those changes had to be made because not every kid in America can speak
Japanese. As for the names, those are the names that Hasbro chose to give
their toys, thus the show reflects that. It's not their fault that Takara
chose to call their toys something different. You are also aware that the
show started airing over here well before it started airing in Japan,
right? It was meant to be that way from the start, unlike RiD where that
show was originally meant for a Japanese audience and didn't air here
until long after it had finished airing there. Armada was engineered to
be sold in both countries at the same time and I have no doubt that the
show follows the same idea.
>
> 1) there are PLENTY of fans who are satisifed with the boxed sets and don't
> think the minor audio changes ruin the experience at all.
> and
So? No one is saying that you can't feel that way. If you can live with
the changes and enjoy the show regardless, then great. I'm happy for you.
Now why exactly does it matter to you if we don't feel the same as you?
How does our not liking what Rhino has done, effect how you enjoy the DVDs?
> 2)Rhino isn;t doing a DAMN thing with regards to audio changes WITHOUT
> Hasbro's approval.
You don't know that. I doubt Hasbro has any say at all. Rhino has the
rights to the series. I imagine that Hasbro can't do anything about it
until those rights expire. However, I don't know that and neither do you.
Mr Director
"Pyre" <pyres...@crosswinds.net> wrote in message
news:3EC315AB...@crosswinds.net...
> Mr Director wrote:
> >
> > Fine, they have a right to be upset, but some of them aren't saying a
word
> > about how the US Armada series was ruined from the start by using G1
names
> > to characters who weren't G1 related at all, using voice and sound efx
NOT
> > HEARD in the original versions.
>
> Those changes had to be made because not every kid in America can speak
> Japanese.
Uh, there are things called subtitles. EVERY anime fan prefers those over
dubbed cartoons.
As for the names, those are the names that Hasbro chose to give
> their toys, thus the show reflects that.
It's not their fault that Takara
> chose to call their toys something different. You are also aware that the
> show started airing over here well before it started airing in Japan,
> right? It was meant to be that way from the start, unlike RiD where that
> show was originally meant for a Japanese audience and didn't air here
> until long after it had finished airing there. Armada was engineered to
> be sold in both countries at the same time and I have no doubt that the
> show follows the same idea.
>
> >
> > 1) there are PLENTY of fans who are satisifed with the boxed sets and
don't
> > think the minor audio changes ruin the experience at all.
> > and
>
> So? No one is saying that you can't feel that way. If you can live with
> the changes and enjoy the show regardless, then great. I'm happy for you.
> Now why exactly does it matter to you if we don't feel the same as you?
> How does our not liking what Rhino has done, effect how you enjoy the
DVDs?
It doesn't but it seems us LIKING the Rhino DVDs are affecting you because
you're calling for a boycott.
>
> > 2)Rhino isn;t doing a DAMN thing with regards to audio changes WITHOUT
> > Hasbro's approval.
>
> You don't know that.
I do know Hasbro has the rights to the characters' likeness, names, and
images, and a simple Google search engine can easily answer that question.
If I'm wrong, provide me a link to official information.
>I doubt Hasbro has any say at all.
I know Hasbro wasn't forced at gunpoint to sell the DVD rights to Rhino.
Rhino has the
> rights to the series. I imagine that Hasbro can't do anything about it
> until those rights expire. However, I don't know that and neither do you.
I know Hasbro as more say than you think they don't.
Goldbug
"Mr Director" <mrdir...@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
I'm upset that they use G1 names in Armada for sure! However this was
already discussed & the excuse that Hasbro can make is a good one.
Remember they need to copyright these names and in renewing copyrights I
believe are cheaper than getting new ones maybe?
I will not be buying these inferior DVDs. (I've heard better sound
effects) In fact I will somehow get pirated versions & MAKE MY OWN DVDs!
:P
1.) You don't count :P
2.) From what I read Hasbro mistakenly gave them free reign on it.
--
reply to post as spammers have infiltrated my email box
after Saddam we're going after SPAMMERS!
Mr Director
"Goldbug" <no...@none.net> wrote in message
news:none-9BC177.2...@netnews.attbi.com...
> > Fine, they have a right to be upset, but some of them aren't saying a
word
> > about how the US Armada series was ruined from the start by using G1
names
> > to characters who weren't G1 related at all, using voice and sound efx
NOT
> > HEARD in the original versions. If you sdon't like it, don't buy it. But
get
> > a couple of things straight:
> >
> > 1) there are PLENTY of fans who are satisifed with the boxed sets and
don't
> > think the minor audio changes ruin the experience at all.
> > and
> > 2)Rhino isn;t doing a DAMN thing with regards to audio changes WITHOUT
> > Hasbro's approval. Your beef is with Hasbro, NOT Rhino.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> I'm upset that they use G1 names in Armada for sure! However this was
> already discussed & the excuse that Hasbro can make is a good one.
> Remember they need to copyright these names and in renewing copyrights I
> believe are cheaper than getting new ones maybe?
>
> I will not be buying these inferior DVDs. (I've heard better sound
> effects) In fact I will somehow get pirated versions & MAKE MY OWN DVDs!
> :P
Well, there ya go. At least you're doing something about it.
>
> 1.) You don't count :P
At least not on Election Day.
> 2.) From what I read Hasbro mistakenly gave them free reign on it.
In other words, Hasbro gave them FULL approval to do what they want.
Aaron F. Bourque
>It seems people need a scapegoat. Whether it's Dreamwave
>and Pat Lee as far as the comics go, or Rhino with the DVDs,
>there are people who will always bitch about something. Sure,
>griping about the added sound effects is understandable, but the
>whole boycott nonsense is idiotic. Those same people didn't
>boycott Hasbro over the Cybernet Space Cube in Generation 2,
>which was *far* more distracting, did they? Oh wait, those were
>"official" changes by Hasbro, so even though they were annoying
>they're okay. How hypocritical.
BAH!
If I'd have been able to catch Gen2 when it aired, I for damn sure
wouldn't have watched it. Oh wait. I did.
Hasbro screws up too. When they put out a toy I don't like,
guess what: I don't buy it either.
>Like the saying goes: "If you don't like it, don't buy it"
That's what a BOYCOTT is.
>I have said in the past, I am willing to put up with some added
>SFX if it means replacing barely watchable episodes on VHS
>with deteriorated sound AND video.
Because you have NO OTHER CHOICE . . . and Rhino has no
incentive to put out the originals as they aired . . .
Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque
--
Women supposedly mature at a faster rate than men
If that is true, how come they live so much longer then . . ?
Nothing says maturity like transforming robot toys for ten-year-olds
http://members.aol.com/aaronbourque/cryotekwarning.jpg
Aaron F. Bourque
>Gyumaoh wrote:
>
>> >Those same people didn't boycott
>> >Hasbro over the Cybernet Space Cube in Generation 2,
>> >which was *far* more distracting, did they?
>>
>> Go fuck yourself. People here were _furious_ about the cube.
>> There were no G2 episodes on video here TO boycott, idiot.
>
>It's good to see there are still specimens of the AOL=Idiots
>stereotype still lurking around.
Hey, you know what? Go fuck yourself.
>I admit I was in error about the reaction to the cube, but in the
>absence of G2 episodes to boycott at the time, there WAS a
>toyline. A little thought on your end would have made that
>obvious connection, but I suppose it was too much to ask. The
>show=toy commercial, after all.
Way to use logic there.
What the goddamn shit?
That makes no sense at all.
>Furthermore, just because there were no G2 episodes on video
>in your area doesn't mean none existed. I happen to have three
>such videos, simply because they were the only versions of the
>particular episodes available.
Which came out later, use your brain, or do you not have one?
Aaron F. Bourque
>Excellent point. As a matter of fact, how come people here
>aren't bitching about Transformers Armada being dubbed into
>English, and its original sound effects removed for
>Americanization?
. . .
Eh?
Maybe because that's not a reflection of any kind of reality?
Aaron F. Bourque
>Exatron wrote:
>
>> Rhino's new sound effects are inexcusable and people have
>> every right to complain about an inferior product, regardless of
>> what Rhino apologists think.
>
>If you've bought the Rhino discs, then yes, you do have every
>right to voice your displeasure. But, if you've already refused to
>buy them, you haven't sacrificed any money of your own,
>therefore you don't have that same "right" to complain.
. . .
What about people (like me!) who withheld judgement until the
product was out and wanted reviews before the spent their
hard-earned money?
We don't count? Fuck you.
Aaron F. Bourque
>> Those changes had to be made because not every kid in
>> America can speak Japanese.
>
>Uh, there are things called subtitles. EVERY anime fan prefers
>those over dubbed cartoons.
What the hell world do you live on?
First of all, no, not *every* anime fan prefers subs to dubs. If it's a
choice between a poor dub and a sub, many will go for the sub,
but not *all*, and I daresay, not even *most.*
Second (and biggest) of all:
ARMADA IS NOT AN ANIME!
The Armada TV show was developed concurrently by Japanese
and American studios. The American studio got their own voice
talent. The Japanese studio got their own voice talent. The show
is being released in North America first, thus bingo, the show is
an "American product."
You are acting as though the show was developed completely
by the Japanese, has already aired in Japan, and all the North
American version is is a (poor) dub. Sort of a Beast Wars Metals,
in reverse.
Awesoman
>crappy?
Personally, I don't see anything half-assed about the TF DVDs. The picture is
much improved and I enjoy hearing it in 5.1 surround.
This is my website. Go nuts.
http://members.aol.com/awesoman/page1.htm
SuperDave
"Mr Director" <mrdir...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:NUEwa.27844$h42....@twister.nyc.rr.com...
>
> "Pyre" <pyres...@crosswinds.net> wrote in message
> news:3EC315AB...@crosswinds.net...
> > Mr Director wrote:
> > >
> > > Fine, they have a right to be upset, but some of them aren't saying a
> word
> > > about how the US Armada series was ruined from the start by using G1
> names
> > > to characters who weren't G1 related at all, using voice and sound efx
> NOT
> > > HEARD in the original versions.
> >
> > Those changes had to be made because not every kid in America can speak
> > Japanese.
>
> Uh, there are things called subtitles. EVERY anime fan prefers those over
> dubbed cartoons.
>
Er... While I usually like to stay out of these things, and while I do
agree on some points regarding the changes to the audio of the g1 DVDs (I
don't mind the changes at all), I just want to point out that the blanket
statement of EVERY anime fan prefers subtitles is not really true to life.
Case in point: myself. I only watch my anime dubbed (except for the very
rare case where the only option is subs...), and as many people that I know
can attest to, I am definitely an anime fan (my 400+ anime DVDs also attest
to this). I'm not very vocal aboot it because I know how long an innane the
arguments can be either way, so I just chalk it up to "to each, his/her
own." I just don't like the blanket statements that imply that in order to
be an anime fan, you must watch subtitled anime....
That being said, I will admit that the writing of Armada... leaves a lot to
be desired. But hey, from what I have heared, it is their first time as
head writers, so they will hopefully get better an learn from their mistakes
(and from all the feedback Armada has generated). It is an okay series, and
I like the characters (yes, even the kids, whom I do not mind at all), but
some of the "small things," such as the misnomers, need to be addressed.
Who knows, maybe Rhino will bring Armada out on DVD and remaster the audio.
And get the names fixed..................................... Okay, time to
stop holding my breath...
_____________________
SuperDave, who usually does not like to reply to these things, but a
combination of boredom and tiredness has caused a lapse in judgement. Oh
well, why not.
Elc
> From: Elc no...@spam.ca
>
> >Gyumaoh wrote:
> >
> >> >Those same people didn't boycott
> >> >Hasbro over the Cybernet Space Cube in Generation 2,
> >> >which was *far* more distracting, did they?
> >>
> >> Go fuck yourself. People here were _furious_ about the cube.
> >> There were no G2 episodes on video here TO boycott, idiot.
> >
> >It's good to see there are still specimens of the AOL=Idiots
> >stereotype still lurking around.
>
> Hey, you know what? Go fuck yourself.
Ah, the typical "AOL Moron" response. If you took offense to the
"AOL=Idiots" remark, perhaps you didn't notice the word "stereotype"
following it. It's not my fault you fall into that category.
> >Furthermore, just because there were no G2 episodes on video
> >in your area doesn't mean none existed. I happen to have three
> >such videos, simply because they were the only versions of the
> >particular episodes available.
>
> Which came out later, use your brain, or do you not have one?
Do you even know what YOU are talking about? I don't know which episodes
EXACTLY were released in the original format in the US, but here in
Canada approx. half of the season one episodes were released on video,
while "Dinobot Island, Desertion of the Dinobots and Megatron's Master
Plan" were released in G2 format. There were NO other options available
for those episodes. Whatever episodes which were released by Rhino on
VHS were not available in stores, with perhaps the exceptions of
specialty shops, but I never saw them anywhere.
So, if I may momentarily stoop to using the AOL Moron Motto: Go fuck
yourself.
Exatron
> "Exatron" <exa...@NOhotmSpAMail.com> wrote in message
> news:pan.2003.05.15....@NOhotmSpAMail.com...
>> Mr Director wrote:
>>
>> > Actually, some of us are complaining that those who can;t stand
>> > the new sound efx are demanding a boycott. If you don't like the
>> > add ons, fine, don't buy any more Rhino DVDs, but for people like
>> > me, the new sound efx hardly detract from the audio at all and
>> > want to continue to enjoy the Transformers experience.
>>
>> I'm still waiting for the reason why you think some fans have no
>> right to call for a boycott.
>
> I already gave my reasons. Sorry if you don't think they're enough.
You didn't give any reasons at all.
> There was no need for Rhino to mess with the
>> audio in any way beyond cleaning it up a bit, and people are
>> understandably upset by what the company did.
>>
>>
> Fine, they have a right to be upset, but some of them aren't saying
> a word about how the US Armada series was ruined from the start by
> using G1 names to characters who weren't G1 related at all, using
> voice and sound efx NOT HEARD in the original versions. If you
> sdon't like it, don't buy it. But get a couple of things straight:
Armada is a poor example. It wasn't ruined in any way by being in
engilsh, was always meant to be presented in two languages, and G1
names are just names- they don't have to be eternally associated with
G1 characters. I'd also like to see some proof that the sound effects
(not efx, effects) from Micron Legend are different from Armada.
> 1) there are PLENTY of fans who are satisifed with the boxed sets
> and don't think the minor audio changes ruin the experience at all.
Good for them. It still doesn't mean that other people shouldn't
complain and expect the errors to be fixed.
The audio changes aren't minor to many people. They're sloppy and
intrusive. I hadn't seen many of the episodes in years and I could
tell that something was wrong with some of the stereo tracks (since
the errors on the first two setswere confined to certain episodes, I
can't say all) on the DVD release.
> and
> 2)Rhino isn;t doing a DAMN thing with regards to audio changes
> WITHOUT Hasbro's approval. Your beef is with Hasbro, NOT Rhino.
Prove it.
I doubt Hasbro does anything beyond checking to ensure that Rhino
isn't releasing anything of absurdly poor quailty or doing anything
offensive with the Transformers brand name. It had to have been
Rhino's idea in the first place and they are the company that released
the episodes that way, so it is appropriate to direct complaints to
Rhino.
--
Exatron
"My work is a monument to -and of- my enemies." - Scrapper
Elc
> From: Elc no...@spam.ca
>
> >Like the saying goes: "If you don't like it, don't buy it"
>
> That's what a BOYCOTT is.
The "Boycott" in question are those who are so extremely dissatisfied
with the Rhino DVDs are calling for EVERYONE to boycott the product, not
just exercising their right to pass on it themselves. There's a bit of a
difference there.
Elc
> From: Elc no...@spam.ca
>
> >Exatron wrote:
> >
> >> Rhino's new sound effects are inexcusable and people have
> >> every right to complain about an inferior product, regardless of
> >> what Rhino apologists think.
> >
> >If you've bought the Rhino discs, then yes, you do have every
> >right to voice your displeasure. But, if you've already refused to
> >buy them, you haven't sacrificed any money of your own,
> >therefore you don't have that same "right" to complain.
>
> . . .
>
> What about people (like me!) who withheld judgement until the
> product was out and wanted reviews before the spent their
> hard-earned money?
>
> We don't count? Fuck you.
Ah yes, you apparently can't seem to respond WITHOUT using "fuck" can
you?
Your opinion of the product does, of course, count. Perhaps you jumped
to conclusions and, naturally, misinterpreted my comment to mean that
NOBODY except those who bought the product can criticise it. Not at all.
If the option is available to you, and notice how I said "IF"? I
wouldn't want you to get all pissy on me and tell me to go fuck myself
again because I presumed you had one iota of intelligence.
IF the option is available to you, you could rent the disc and make your
judgement. After having experienced the Rhino-treatment and, if
disatisfied, you by all means have grounds to voice your complaint.
That's not what I have a problem with. People seem to be so insecure
that they must try to force THEIR opinions onto others, namely those who
don't find the Rhino DVDs to be the "inferior" product they are. So,
just so there is no further confusion about what I'm getting at, those
who have NOT even SEEN an example of the product for themselves, yet
STILL whine and complain don't have the "right" that those who have do.
So WHAT if some sound effects are added? Yes, I would rather they had
not done so, but they DID. Yes, the season one set, with the film source
Rhino chose, is inferior to the proper version, but at the core it is
STILL the same episode. It is annoying to have errors, yes, but it is
NOT worth all of this nonsense.
As I leave you Mr. Bourque, remember the AOL Moron Motto...
Elc
> Elc wrote:
> >
> > so why is it acceptable for these new versions of the toys to be released
> > without the complainers branding them as "inferior" products
>
> The difference there is that there's no way around those changes. They
> HAD to be made in order for them to be sold here. Hasbro had no choice.
I agree with you on the mould changes, but from what I've heard about name trademarks,
something as simple as a hyphen is sufficient enough to get around the fact that
another company already owns the trademark to a particular name. For instance, while
Hasbro owns "Autobot" some other, smaller, company is able to release a transforming
toy robot under the brand name "Auto-Bot". I saw this not too long ago at a local TRU.
This begs the question why Hasbro, even though they lost the rights to "Hot Rod",
couldn't have called him either "Hotrod" or "Autobot Hot Rod", like they did with
Jazz?
> With the G1 DVDs, there was no reason at all for Rhino to add those extra
> sounds. They could have left the sound alone and everyone would be happy
> with it. If they wanted to remix the sound into 5.1, then fine, they can
> do that, but that doesn't mean they need to ADD more sounds to do so.
Yes, I agree, and I would have prefered they didn't add anything to the soundtrack.
I'm not going to try to rationalize Rhino's reasonings for doing so, just that they
don't totally ruin the episodes for me.
> And KNOWING that there are complaints about it,
> having been suggested that they at least not include those sounds in the
> 2.0 track, saying they'll follow through on that and then not doing so is,
> IMO, inexcusable.
I'm just speculating here, since I don't know all the necessary info, but perhaps the
Rhino representative who stated they wouldn't add the Rhino mix to the 2.0 track
didn't have the final say in the matter, and whoever did just simply decided to go
ahead with it. So maybe it wasn't a case of them telling us what we wanted to hear,
then doing the exact opposite. But, yes, even so it is inexcusable to do so since they
were made aware of the complaints.
Pyre
>
> Uh, there are things called subtitles. EVERY anime fan prefers those over
> dubbed cartoons.
>
So? Armada is a CHILDREN'S CARTOON. It's aimed at CHILDREN. It's on tv
so CHILDREN can watch it and bug their parents to go buy them toys. I
doubt kids would have much interest in it if they had to read everything
that was on the screen just to understand it. Besides, the show, like the
toys, was made as a joint venture between the two companies. It's meant
to be shown in English just as much as it was meant to be shown in
Japanese. Like I said, this isn't like RiD. Armada wasn't meant for just
a Japanese audience. It was designed with both in mind. There is no
right or wrong as far as those things go. You seem to not understand this.
>
> It doesn't but it seems us LIKING the Rhino DVDs are affecting you because
> you're calling for a boycott.
I am? When did I say that? I'm personally "boycotting" them because I
would prefer not to waste my money on a flawed product and if other people
that feel as I do wish to do the same, then great. What you do is your
business but I don't think I've seen one person on here say that those
that DO like them should boycott them as well. I think you're just
assuming so and I'm sure you know what people say about assuming things.
>
> I do know Hasbro has the rights to the characters' likeness, names, and
> images, and a simple Google search engine can easily answer that question.
> If I'm wrong, provide me a link to official information.
I don't know if you're wrong or not but being that Rhino is the one
producing and releasing these DVDs, I feel that the responsibility falls
on them. I'm sure Hasbro knows what's going on. They always seem to and
I'm sure that if there was something they could do, they would do it.
>
> I know Hasbro wasn't forced at gunpoint to sell the DVD rights to Rhino.
So? I doubt Hasbro knew that Rhino would make the mistakes they've made
either.
>
> I know Hasbro as more say than you think they don't.
I don't know what they have say over regarding this subject. Has someone
from Hasbro told you something? If so, please share it with us.
Pyre
>
> The "Boycott" in question are those who are so extremely dissatisfied
> with the Rhino DVDs are calling for EVERYONE to boycott the product, not
> just exercising their right to pass on it themselves. There's a bit of a
> difference there.
>
No one is calling for EVERYONE to boycott the product. There's call for
those not happy with the product to boycott it, but no one is saying that
those who enjoy it for whatever reason should boycott it as well.
Pyre
>
> So WHAT if some sound effects are added? Yes, I would rather they had
> not done so, but they DID.
So we should just accept it? I don't think so. I can't just accept
something and be happy with it just because that's what there is. For
example: I'm working a job right now that I don't particularly like. I
don't make allot of money either. Should I just be happy that I have a
job at all instead of trying to find something better? God no. I wont
settle. I can't settle. IMO, it's nonsense to suggest it.
Pyre
> using G1 names to characters who weren't G1 related at all
I just want to point out another flaw in this argument. In case you
weren't aware, here's a list of some characters in Micron Legend and their
corresponding Armada names.
Hot Rod - Hot Shot
Iron Hide - Demolishor
Sandstorm - Cyclonus
Ratchet - Red Alert
Shockwave - Tidal Wave
Jetfire - Jetfire
Nope, Takara never recycles G1 names. No siree...
Mr Director
"Aaron F. Bourque" <aaronb...@aol.commandment> wrote in message
news:20030515014441...@mb-m19.aol.com...
> From: "Mr Director" mrdir...@nyc.rr.com
>
> >> Those changes had to be made because not every kid in
> >> America can speak Japanese.
> >
> >Uh, there are things called subtitles. EVERY anime fan prefers
> >those over dubbed cartoons.
>
> What the hell world do you live on?
>
A world where at least from where I stand I don't go saying "fuck you" to
every person because I want to be an asshole and disgree with people for
the sake of it. At least I think so.
> First of all, no, not *every* anime fan prefers subs to dubs. If it's a
> choice between a poor dub and a sub, many will go for the sub,
> but not *all*, and I daresay, not even *most.*
Actually, MOST do as per the Disney release of Metropolis on DVD, where the
anime community saw to it that the original Japanese version with subtitles
was included on the DVD, or else no $$$.
Not all, but definitely not "not even most."
>
> Second (and biggest) of all:
>
> ARMADA IS NOT AN ANIME!
Uh, yes it is, just like Voltron was anime.
>
> The Armada TV show was developed concurrently by Japanese
> and American studios. The American studio got their own voice
> talent. The Japanese studio got their own voice talent. The show
> is being released in North America first, thus bingo, the show is
> an "American product."
Again, Voltron falls into this category (with the exception of release in US
country first) and THAT was considered anime.
And how do you figure Armada as an "american product" when Hasbro is working
in conjuction with Takara, using Japanese animators who draw with Japanese
styles? The show at best may be a "co-American production," but it is still
Japanese at heart.
>
> You are acting as though the show was developed completely
> by the Japanese, has already aired in Japan, and all the North
> American version is is a (poor) dub.
I didn't say it was a poor dub, I just said those who whined about keeping
the true audio on the G1 releases by Rhino should have also looked at the
redub job on Armada. Obviously I know better now, but it does not change my
mind regarding the negative overboard reaction to Rhino's DVD releases.
Mr Director
> Mr Director wrote:
> > using G1 names to characters who weren't G1 related at all
>
> I just want to point out another flaw in this argument. In case you
> weren't aware, here's a list of some characters in Micron Legend and their
> corresponding Armada names.
>
> Hot Rod - Hot Shot
> Iron Hide - Demolishor
> Sandstorm - Cyclonus
> Ratchet - Red Alert
> Shockwave - Tidal Wave
> Jetfire - Jetfire
>
> Nope, Takara never recycles G1 names. No siree...
A flaw in your argument: I never said Takara, I said Hasbro in regards to
Armada.
Mr Director
"Exatron" <exa...@NOhotmSpAMail.com> wrote in message
> Mr Director wrote:
>
>
> > "Exatron" <exa...@NOhotmSpAMail.com> wrote in message
> > news:pan.2003.05.15....@NOhotmSpAMail.com...
> >> Mr Director wrote:
> >>
> >> > Actually, some of us are complaining that those who can;t stand
> >> > the new sound efx are demanding a boycott. If you don't like the
> >> > add ons, fine, don't buy any more Rhino DVDs, but for people like
> >> > me, the new sound efx hardly detract from the audio at all and
> >> > want to continue to enjoy the Transformers experience.
> >>
> >> I'm still waiting for the reason why you think some fans have no
> >> right to call for a boycott.
> >
> > I already gave my reasons. Sorry if you don't think they're enough.
>
> You didn't give any reasons at all.
Yes I did. Go back and read my posts in this thread.
>
> > There was no need for Rhino to mess with the
> >> audio in any way beyond cleaning it up a bit, and people are
> >> understandably upset by what the company did.
> >>
> >>
> > Fine, they have a right to be upset, but some of them aren't saying
> > a word about how the US Armada series was ruined from the start by
> > using G1 names to characters who weren't G1 related at all, using
> > voice and sound efx NOT HEARD in the original versions. If you
> > sdon't like it, don't buy it. But get a couple of things straight:
>
> Armada is a poor example. It wasn't ruined in any way by being in
> engilsh, was always meant to be presented in two languages, and G1
> names are just names- they don't have to be eternally associated with
> G1 characters. I'd also like to see some proof that the sound effects
> (not efx, effects) from Micron Legend are different from Armada.
Well, Armada is a poor example in that it was apparently a co-production
between Japan and the US, but I am curious as to the reaction in regards to
the Americanization of RID.
>
> > 1) there are PLENTY of fans who are satisifed with the boxed sets
> > and don't think the minor audio changes ruin the experience at all.
>
> Good for them. It still doesn't mean that other people shouldn't
> complain and expect the errors to be fixed.
If they get it done, fine.
>
> The audio changes aren't minor to many people. They're sloppy and
> intrusive. I hadn't seen many of the episodes in years and I could
> tell that something was wrong with some of the stereo tracks (since
> the errors on the first two setswere confined to certain episodes, I
> can't say all) on the DVD release.
>
> > and
> > 2)Rhino isn;t doing a DAMN thing with regards to audio changes
> > WITHOUT Hasbro's approval. Your beef is with Hasbro, NOT Rhino.
>
> Prove it.
>
A simple google search engine says Hasbro owns the likeness and trademarks
to the Transformers. End of that.
> I doubt Hasbro does anything beyond checking to ensure that Rhino
> isn't releasing anything of absurdly poor quailty or doing anything
> offensive with the Transformers brand name. It had to have been
> Rhino's idea in the first place and they are the company that released
> the episodes that way, so it is appropriate to direct complaints to
> Rhino.
>
As was mentioned in an earlier post in this thread, hasbro gave free reign
to Rhino. In other words, Hasbro gave FULL approval for Rhino to do whatever
they wanted.
Jordan L Derber
Mr Director <mrdir...@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>A simple google search engine says Hasbro owns the likeness and trademarks
>to the Transformers. End of that.
A simple attandance of the Hasbro panel at BotCon 2002 reveals that Hasbro
said they have no control or influence over the content of Rhino's DVDs.
--
Jordan Derber, Uber-Otaku
aka H-K
aka Buster Darkwings, Evil Destron Fairy
Subtitler and Co-Organizer of the Japanese TF episode fansubbing project
e-mail: jsdst5 at pitt.edu
Ethan Hammond
>
It would be if Americans actually knew what anime meant.
Same with those idiots who call themselves otaku and think
it is a good thing. *SHAKES FIST*
--
All Purpose Cultural Randomness
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/apcr/index.html
Ethan Hammond
> weren't aware, here's a list of some characters in Micron Legend and their
> corresponding Armada names.
>
> Hot Rod - Hot Shot
> Iron Hide - Demolishor
> Sandstorm - Cyclonus
> Ratchet - Red Alert
> Shockwave - Tidal Wave
> Jetfire - Jetfire
>
> Nope, Takara never recycles G1 names. No siree...
Especially not the name Convoy.
Ethan Hammond
>
> >A simple google search engine says Hasbro owns the likeness and
trademarks
> >to the Transformers. End of that.
>
> A simple attandance of the Hasbro panel at BotCon 2002 reveals that Hasbro
> said they have no control or influence over the content of Rhino's DVDs.
Right after they said the G1 reissues would not be coming out in North
America.
Hasbro, "I did not have control or influence over the content of that DVD."
Ethan Hammond
> > with the Rhino DVDs are calling for EVERYONE to boycott the product, not
> > just exercising their right to pass on it themselves. There's a bit of a
> > difference there.
> >
>
> No one is calling for EVERYONE to boycott the product. There's call for
> those not happy with the product to boycott it, but no one is saying that
> those who enjoy it for whatever reason should boycott it as well.
Some of us just like to participate and be envolved. It makes us
feel empowered.
Desperadimus Prime
>
>It would be if Americans actually knew what anime meant.
>Same with those idiots who call themselves otaku and think
>it is a good thing. *SHAKES FIST*
Technically, anime is Japan's generalized term for animation. In America, it
has come to mean cartoons originally created for Japan and then imported to the
U.S., typically characterized by characters with so-called "doe eyes," and has
also been called Japanime. Going by the American definition, while Armada was
first released in America, it was animated in what is generally accepted as the
anime style.
-----
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.
An egotist is a self-made man who worships his creator.
If we aren't meant to eat animals, then why are they made of meat?
No horse is too dead to beat.
Ethan Hammond
over
> > dubbed cartoons.
> >
>
> So? Armada is a CHILDREN'S CARTOON. It's aimed at CHILDREN. It's on tv
> so CHILDREN can watch it and bug their parents to go buy them toys. I
> doubt kids would have much interest in it if they had to read everything
> that was on the screen just to understand it. Besides, the show, like the
> toys, was made as a joint venture between the two companies. It's meant
> to be shown in English just as much as it was meant to be shown in
> Japanese. Like I said, this isn't like RiD. Armada wasn't meant for just
> a Japanese audience. It was designed with both in mind. There is no
> right or wrong as far as those things go. You seem to not understand
this.
90% of anime are targeted at children.
> > It doesn't but it seems us LIKING the Rhino DVDs are affecting you
because
> > you're calling for a boycott.
>
> I am? When did I say that? I'm personally "boycotting" them because I
> would prefer not to waste my money on a flawed product and if other people
> that feel as I do wish to do the same, then great. What you do is your
> business but I don't think I've seen one person on here say that those
> that DO like them should boycott them as well. I think you're just
> assuming so and I'm sure you know what people say about assuming things.
BOYCOT!!!!
> > I do know Hasbro has the rights to the characters' likeness, names, and
> > images, and a simple Google search engine can easily answer that
question.
> > If I'm wrong, provide me a link to official information.
>
> I don't know if you're wrong or not but being that Rhino is the one
> producing and releasing these DVDs, I feel that the responsibility falls
> on them. I'm sure Hasbro knows what's going on. They always seem to and
> I'm sure that if there was something they could do, they would do it.
>
> >
> > I know Hasbro wasn't forced at gunpoint to sell the DVD rights to Rhino.
Back when they did no one cared about TF's either.
Ethan Hammond
>
> >> ARMADA IS NOT AN ANIME!
> >
> >It would be if Americans actually knew what anime meant.
> >Same with those idiots who call themselves otaku and think
> >it is a good thing. *SHAKES FIST*
>
> Technically, anime is Japan's generalized term for animation. In America,
it
> has come to mean cartoons originally created for Japan and then imported
to the
> U.S., typically characterized by characters with so-called "doe eyes," and
has
> also been called Japanime. Going by the American definition, while Armada
was
> first released in America, it was animated in what is generally accepted
as the
> anime style.
I supposed I can accept that. BEGRUDGINGLY!!!! *SHAKES FIST*
Exatron
> "Exatron" <exa...@NOhotmSpAMail.com> wrote in message
> news:pan.2003.05.15...@NOhotmSpAMail.com...
>> Mr Director wrote:
>>
>>
>> > "Exatron" <exa...@NOhotmSpAMail.com> wrote in message
>> > news:pan.2003.05.15....@NOhotmSpAMail.com...
>> >> Mr Director wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Actually, some of us are complaining that those who can;t
>> >> > stand the new sound efx are demanding a boycott. If you don't
>> >> > like the add ons, fine, don't buy any more Rhino DVDs, but for
>> >> > people like me, the new sound efx hardly detract from the
>> >> > audio at all and want to continue to enjoy the Transformers
>> >> > experience.
>> >>
>> >> I'm still waiting for the reason why you think some fans have no
>> >> right to call for a boycott.
>> >
>> > I already gave my reasons. Sorry if you don't think they're
>> > enough.
>>
>> You didn't give any reasons at all.
>
> Yes I did. Go back and read my posts in this thread.
Idiotic ranting is not a reason.
> Well, Armada is a poor example in that it was apparently a
> co-production between Japan and the US, but I am curious as to the
> reaction in regards to the Americanization of RID.
There wasn't much that could be done to prevent the biggest changes
made to Car Robots when Robots in Disguise was released in the US.
Subtitled anime simply won't be aired on basic cable or broadcast TV,
especially when the show is targeted at children, and names had to be
changed to ensure that Hasbro could use them when selling the toys.
>> Prove it.
>>
>>
> A simple google search engine says Hasbro owns the likeness and
> trademarks to the Transformers. End of that.
No, that still doesn't prove that Hasbro explicitly permitted Rhino to
mess with the audio. Simply stating that Hasbro owns Transformers
does not prove that the company approved every single detail of the
DVD release.
>> I doubt Hasbro does anything beyond checking to ensure that Rhino
>> isn't releasing anything of absurdly poor quailty or doing anything
>> offensive with the Transformers brand name. It had to have been
>> Rhino's idea in the first place and they are the company that
>> released the episodes that way, so it is appropriate to direct
>> complaints to Rhino.
>>
>>
> As was mentioned in an earlier post in this thread, hasbro gave free
> reign to Rhino. In other words, Hasbro gave FULL approval for Rhino
> to do whatever they wanted.
Which is also stating that Hasbro didn't necessarily mean for Rhino to
mess with the auido. The decision to add new sound effects couldn't
have come from any body except Rhino and Hasbro had already given the
company permission to do essentially whatever it wanted.
You're not going to win this argument, so just admit defeat now.
Exatron
> "Aaron F. Bourque" <aaronb...@aol.commandment> wrote in message
> news:20030515014441...@mb-m19.aol.com...
>> From: "Mr Director" mrdir...@nyc.rr.com
>>
>> >> Those changes had to be made because not every kid in America
>> >> can speak Japanese.
>> >
>> >Uh, there are things called subtitles. EVERY anime fan prefers
>> >those over dubbed cartoons.
>>
>> What the hell world do you live on?
>>
>>
> A world where at least from where I stand I don't go saying "fuck
> you" to every person because I want to be an asshole and disgree
> with people for the sake of it. At least I think so.
>
>
>> First of all, no, not *every* anime fan prefers subs to dubs. If
>> it's a choice between a poor dub and a sub, many will go for the
>> sub, but not *all*, and I daresay, not even *most.*
>
> Actually, MOST do as per the Disney release of Metropolis on DVD,
> where the anime community saw to it that the original Japanese
> version with subtitles was included on the DVD, or else no $$$.
Acutally, that only proves that they want both options available on
the DVD release. DVD's have basically ended the sub vs. dub argument
because they can contain multiple audio tracks and subtitles.
> Not all, but definitely not "not even most."
>
>
>
>> Second (and biggest) of all:
>>
>> ARMADA IS NOT AN ANIME!
>
> Uh, yes it is, just like Voltron was anime.
Voltron is a weird case where it is highlyly americanized. I usually
don't think of it as anime because it was created from two unrelated
series and changed its source material in significant ways.
>> The Armada TV show was developed concurrently by Japanese and
>> American studios. The American studio got their own voice talent.
>> The Japanese studio got their own voice talent. The show is being
>> released in North America first, thus bingo, the show is an
>> "American product."
>
> Again, Voltron falls into this category (with the exception of
> release in US country first) and THAT was considered anime.
Voltron also poses the question of what constitutes anime. It was a
highly americanized series that barely resembles its parent series in
some respects. American Anime is a better way to describe Voltron.
> And how do you figure Armada as an "american product" when Hasbro is
> working in conjuction with Takara, using Japanese animators who draw
> with Japanese styles? The show at best may be a "co-American
> production," but it is still Japanese at heart.
No, it's a hybrid at its heart. The style of the artwork and who does
the gruntwork doesn't make something anime. IIRC, Dreamwave did the
character artwork.
>> You are acting as though the show was developed completely by the
>> Japanese, has already aired in Japan, and all the North American
>> version is is a (poor) dub.
>
>
> I didn't say it was a poor dub, I just said those who whined about
> keeping the true audio on the G1 releases by Rhino should have also
> looked at the redub job on Armada. Obviously I know better now, but
> it does not change my mind regarding the negative overboard reaction
> to Rhino's DVD releases.
You have a mind now? I hope the new one works better.
--
Exatron
"Conquest is made with the ashes of one's enemies." - Starscream
Steve-o Stonebraker
>> A simple attandance of the Hasbro panel at BotCon 2002 reveals that Hasbro
>> said they have no control or influence over the content of Rhino's DVDs.
>
> Right after they said the G1 reissues would not be coming out in North
> America.
> Hasbro, "I did not have control or influence over the content of that DVD."
Uhh.... no? At BotCon 2002 they talked extensively about the G1 reissues.
--Steve-o
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Stonebraker | Transformers FAQ Keeper | Astrophysicist
sst...@yahoo.com | www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~sstoneb | AOL IM: srstoneb
Gregatron
DESTRO: "My dear Baroness, I love your new bust! do the battle cry!"
BARONESS: "NO BRAAAAAAAA!!!!!"
- Gregatron
Ethan Hammond
>
> >> A simple attandance of the Hasbro panel at BotCon 2002 reveals that
Hasbro
> >> said they have no control or influence over the content of Rhino's
DVDs.
> >
> > Right after they said the G1 reissues would not be coming out in North
> > America.
> > Hasbro, "I did not have control or influence over the content of that
DVD."
>
> Uhh.... no? At BotCon 2002 they talked extensively about the G1 reissues.
Originally they said we wouldn't get them.
Jordan L Derber
Ethan Hammond <esha...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>It would be if Americans actually knew what anime meant.
As has already been pointed out, words don't always mean the same thing in
different languages. I asume you know what a "mansion" is in Japanese?
>Same with those idiots who call themselves otaku and think
>it is a good thing. *SHAKES FIST*
Sure, no one would ever take something meant as an insult and proudly use
it in defiance of those who coined the name...
Ethan Hammond
>
> As has already been pointed out, words don't always mean the same thing in
> different languages. I asume you know what a "mansion" is in Japanese?
Technically anime dosen't mean anything in anime.
> >Same with those idiots who call themselves otaku and think
> >it is a good thing. *SHAKES FIST*
>
> Sure, no one would ever take something meant as an insult and proudly use
> it in defiance of those who coined the name...
I don't think thats the case. People just picked up on the word
before they knew its real meaning. You would never want
to use it around Japanese.
Jordan L Derber
Uhh... okayy...
>I don't think thats the case. People just picked up on the word
>before they knew its real meaning. You would never want
>to use it around Japanese.
Actually there are many older fans who still use it, such as my
30-something TF dealer friend who lives in Kobe.
Jackpot
>
> Pyre wrote:
>
>> Elc wrote:
>> >
>> > so why is it acceptable for these new versions of the toys to be
>> > released without the complainers branding them as "inferior"
>> > products
>>
>> The difference there is that there's no way around those changes.
>> They HAD to be made in order for them to be sold here. Hasbro had no
>> choice.
>
> I agree with you on the mould changes, but from what I've heard about
> name trademarks, something as simple as a hyphen is sufficient enough
> to get around the fact that another company already owns the trademark
> to a particular name. For instance, while Hasbro owns "Autobot" some
> other, smaller, company is able to release a transforming toy robot
> under the brand name "Auto-Bot". I saw this not too long ago at a
> local TRU.
I don't know that one. Maybe the "Auto-Bot" name IS skirting the law.
The thing is, you can break copyright law all you want as long as the
copyright-holder doesn't prosecute you for it. There are no free-roaming
Copyright Police to catch you independently. (Imagine if there were no
traffic cops patrolling the highways, so in order to get a speeding
ticket, some other driver would have to hire a lawyer, track you down, and
bring you to court - and eat the fees if you were acquitted.) So perhaps
that smaller company just decided to take the risk and run with it. And,
at least up to the time you saw "Auto-Bot" on the shelves, Hasbro hadn't
thought it was worth their bother to fight them for it.
> This begs the question why Hasbro, even though they lost the rights to
> "Hot Rod", couldn't have called him either "Hotrod" or "Autobot Hot
> Rod", like they did with Jazz?
What I've heard is that "Jazz" was a special case because the rival use of
the name was a board game or some such. Whereas "Hot Rod" was being used
for a toy car under either the Matchbox or Hot Wheels line, IIRC. Because
the two uses of "Jazz" were only superficially related (in that they were
both toys of some kind), a superficial change sufficed. However, if
Hasbro had sold its own toy car (which turned into a robot, but was a toy
car nonetheless) with the same name - or a nearly identical name - to a
different company's toy car, then the risk of a lawsuit was much greater.
As I see it, it's conceivable that Hasbro COULD be making riskier choices
if it felt like it - resurrecting all the old names, maybe even easing up
on safety standards - but it just takes one angry customer/rival and an
unsympathetic judge to cost Hasbro millions. So, really: Would having a
"Bluestreak" with short missiles be worth the damage to the entire TF line
that a lawsuit could cause?
(I'm not directing that question to you in particular, Elc. Just to
anyone who complains about the changes Hasbro has made.)
- Jackpot
--
| To contact me, please e-mail aquamandible [at] yahoo [dot] com.
|
|
| Art portfolio - TF and more:
|
| _ _ ______ http://spektakle.com ______ _ _
"The `k's are for the kwality!"
Gregatron
I waited a long time to get the Transformers (and GI JOE) on DVD. This
would enable me to see all the episodes (some for the very first time)
in a high-quality (lacking the fuzzy sound/picture of bootleg tapes,
etc.), uncut format. This allows me to use DVD's freeze-frame
capabilites to really study and enjoy the episodes.
By the way, I hate variations. I MUST have every version, every
alternate version of a tv show of movie, just to be complete.
Not only has Rhino created BRAND-NEW variations of the episodes, but
crappy ones at that. I would be OKAY with that, but there's no option
in many cases to compare the new versions with the originals. THAT
bugs me.
I'm a big believer of historical accuracy (George better release the
*original* Star Wars edits too...). I want to see the episodes as they
were originally broadcast. This also allows a common frame of
reference for fans.
In most cases, the 2.0 sound track has contained the original audio
mix. Combined with the BEAUTIFUL remastered picture, that's great.
It's the cases where both audio tracks have new sounds (GI JOE 2-disc
set, select episodes of TF season 1-2, ALL of season 2 part 2) that
BUG me.
I don't usually complain. Most of the DVD sets are great. It's the
lack of option on some episodes that ticks me off.
- Gregatron
Steve-o Stonebraker
>> >> A simple attandance of the Hasbro panel at BotCon 2002 reveals that
>> >> Hasbro said they have no control or influence over the content of
>> >> Rhino's DVDs.
>> >
>> > Right after they said the G1 reissues would not be coming out in North
>> > America. Hasbro, "I did not have control or influence over the
>> > content of that DVD."
>>
>> Uhh.... no? At BotCon 2002 they talked extensively about the G1 reissues.
>
> Originally they said we wouldn't get them.
::sigh:: First of all, I didn't say otherwise. I was responding to your
implication that they said, in one breath, "no re-issues" and also "we
don't control what Rhino does". It wasn't even at the same convention.
It was at least a year prior, if not two. You are trying to imply that
because we were once told that there were no plans to release re-issues in
the US that we can't trust anything Hasbro tells us. That is simply
ridiculous.
Secondly, I don't recall offhand if we *were* ever told that there would
be no US re-issues, only that -- at the time they were asked -- there were
no plans to release them, which was quite true at that time.
Thirdly, these are completely seperate issues that you can't really
compare, as one of them involves plans that are internal not only to
Hasbro, but to the Transformers team itself, and the other involves work
done by a completely autonomous company owned and controlled by a
different multinational corporation with no ties whatsoever to Hasbro.
Also, one of them involes liscensing, and the other doesn't.
ShadowWing
"Mr Director" wrote
> > First of all, no, not *every* anime fan prefers subs to dubs. If it's a
> > choice between a poor dub and a sub, many will go for the sub,
> > but not *all*, and I daresay, not even *most.*
>
> Actually, MOST do as per the Disney release of Metropolis on DVD, where
the
> anime community saw to it that the original Japanese version with
subtitles
> was included on the DVD, or else no $$$.
I'm not sure there's ever been an exact recording of all anime fans in
non-Japanese speaking countries, English or otherwise. There is certainly a
huge "sub only" community, but I wouldn't say it's most or not.
> > The Armada TV show was developed concurrently by Japanese
> > and American studios. The American studio got their own voice
> > talent. The Japanese studio got their own voice talent. The show
> > is being released in North America first, thus bingo, the show is
> > an "American product."
>
> Again, Voltron falls into this category (with the exception of release in
US
> country first) and THAT was considered anime.
The first season *was* anime. Go Lion was a Japanese program. Nobody
thought a company like New World would come along and translate it into a US
series, much less the vehicle team (I forget the Japanese name, but it was a
different series.) Season two was made only for the US because NWP wanted
more episodes of the Voltron Lion Team. Fleet of Doom (the Voltron teamup
movie) was also a made-for-US production. (Third Dimension also was US but
that series was made by an American company, so it's not anime, outside of
the "true" definition of anime--ie Japanese for "cartoon".)
Armada, however *was* designed with both US and Japan in mind. So there
is a difference between Voltron/Go Lion and Armada/Micron whatis. That
doesn't mean that Armada can't be classified as "anime" but the target of
the original production is still different than Voltron. Each version had
only one target country in mind. (Did Japan ever get the second season/New
Adventures or Third Dimension?)
> And how do you figure Armada as an "american product" when Hasbro is
working
> in conjuction with Takara, using Japanese animators who draw with Japanese
> styles? The show at best may be a "co-American production," but it is
still
> Japanese at heart.
Kid's got a point. It's a cooperative effort.
> I didn't say it was a poor dub, I just said those who whined about keeping
> the true audio on the G1 releases by Rhino should have also looked at the
> redub job on Armada. Obviously I know better now, but it does not change
my
> mind regarding the negative overboard reaction to Rhino's DVD releases.
Some are overreactions, but the sentiment is perfectly fine. Everyone's
entitled to their own opinion, including boycotting a product they feel is
substandard, especially since Rhino actually worked at (in their opinion)
"doing it wrong". It's not a point of doing a bad job, but doing extra work
that they shouldn't have, so it's not just a remaster, but a reedit. That' s
what people are upset about. They didn't fix bad audio, they just went and
added their own, and not for the better. Nothing wrong with requesting their
favorite shows remain as they were. Look at the complaints about the Star
Wars and ET special editions. (I don't care what Spielberg says, they
re-edited the movie; it's not the same thing as just remastering.)
--
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