Zob's Fun Hypothetical Scenario #4
Zobovor
selling Transformers toys at a single price point. All future toys
will be part of this price point. Assume that you have a say in their
decision. What price point would you choose, and why? (Keep in mind
that toys at a lower price point might be more affordable, but would
probably have less complexity and fewer features like electronic
gimmicks. Toys at a higher price point might have more articulation
and more intricate designs, but the expense would put a limit on how
many toys Hasbro could produce in a given year.)
Would you pick Basic/Scout class (around $5), Deluxe (around $10),
Voyager/Ultra (around $20), Leader class (around $40), or something
else entirely?
Zob
Dave Van Domelen
Zobovor <zm...@aol.com> wrote:
>Would you pick Basic/Scout class (around $5), Deluxe (around $10),
>Voyager/Ultra (around $20), Leader class (around $40), or something
>else entirely?
Deluxe. But I'd also make sure that there were a couple of combiner
teams each year, and rig a new storyline in which the combiners were the
leaders. Maybe something about the sparks of Great Leaders Of The Great War
being shattered in the final battle, and bits of them being inherited by the
next generation.
Dave Van Domelen, "Who is the eighth Prime?"
Autobus Prime
Deluxe, easily. For me, it's a good compromise between affordability
and features. I was trying to stick with Dx-sized movie figures for a
while,
picking up FAB Prime & Megs to lead my other deluxes, and they look
pretty good all lined up. Duke doesn't need to tower over Heavy Duty,
right? (And then I broke the routine for Ironhide...oh well...)
I did some calculations based on theoretical volume ratios, and
deluxes
are also one of the best values for the money...not the best,
actually,
when considering only volume, in which they are slightly beaten by
the $40 Leader class, and by the surprising per-pound winner, the
Supreme class...going by material quantity alone, Supremes should
cost around $80, if deluxes are $10. 12"/6" = 2; 2^3 = 8.
On the other hand, a $50 Supreme gets you a single /character/, just
like a $10 deluxe does, or even a $2 dollar-store Spychanger. This
complicates things -- I am buying these, in part, because they add
physically-modeled inhabitants to "Lyle".
They're also a single *toy*, regardless of price. For most parents, I
think it's
not too hard to buy a $10 toy for a child, now and then, when out
shopping.
Twenty dollars tends to bring up comparisons to other prices -
gasoline,
groceries, etc. That's more of a birthday or Christmas gift.
Furthermore, there are liabilities attached to larger toys; being big
and
heavy and expensive, they can be less good for play and even display.
Primus is really cool, but he takes up a lot of shelf.
Considering all of these, I think deluxes are the clear winner.
Cordially yours:
Autobus Prime
w/minicon Farebox.
Chad Rushing
>
> Would you pick Basic/Scout class (around $5), Deluxe (around $10),
> Voyager/Ultra (around $20), Leader class (around $40), or something
> else entirely?
No contest whatsoever for me ... It would absolutely be the Deluxe
($10) class. They are big enough to have a reasonable degree of
complexity, articulation, and "character" while they are incredibly
easy to store if you just keep the cardbacks and instructions to
them. Also, they are the perfect size to piddle with, transforming
back and forth while you watch BW through for the third or fourth
time.
That is not to say that I have never liked bigger or smaller TFs, but
the Deluxes in a line almost always end up being my favorites, even
the recolors/redecos. Also, I care absolutely nothing for electronic
gimmicks, so I would not miss them at all, since Deluxes are usually
too small to incorporate them.
There have been times in which I have considered collecting only
Deluxes and Scouts/Basics due to the high enjoyment factor and the low
storage factor. Unfortunately, a lot of characters never get the
Deluxe treatment (vs. movie Brawl for example), so if you want certain
major characters, you have to buy the bigger figures, too.
- Chad
Chad Rushing
Deluxes have a clear lead up to this point. It will be interesting to
see if that lead holds out or not.
- Chad
Victoryleo
perfect size,the toy's not too big & not too small. the voyager sized
TF toys look sleek,well proportioned. not top heavy & decently
articulated.
Gustavo Wombat
Basic, which is more of a $7 price point these days, is it not? I
think Hasbro and Takara can do some really great things with tight
limits -- we saw a lot of great basic sized toys in Energon and
Cybertron, and even back in Beast Machines (Tank Drone!). No need to
go bigger.
If the dollar loses a bit more value, I might say the $10 deluxe size,
since they'll have to shrink them.
Gustavo!
Chad Rushing
>
> If the dollar loses a bit more value, I might say the $10 deluxe size,
> since they'll have to shrink them.
I agree. I think the only reason why Deluxes continue to sell at $10
at retail is because Wal-Mart (and subsequently Target) refuses to
raise the price on them, even if that means their profit margin on
them is slim to none. Online retailers who have had their Deluxes go
up to like $13 apiece are probably more in line with inflation and
dollar depreciation than major retailers. The rising price of oil
cannot be helping, either.
If the dollar continues to tank, I would not be surprised if Deluxes
are shrunk down in size while kept at the same price (like is always
done with food products) or if they are finally bumped up to $12
apiece.
- Chad
Zobovor
> I agree. I think the only reason why Deluxes continue to sell at $10
> at retail is because Wal-Mart (and subsequently Target) refuses to
> raise the price on them, even if that means their profit margin on
> them is slim to none.
Actually, I'm quite certain Wal-Mart is still making money off that
size class. They very rarely sell items for less than what they paid
the manufacturer for them. I'll look into it and get back to you with
some figures.
> If the dollar continues to tank, I would not be surprised if Deluxes
> are shrunk down in size while kept at the same price (like is always
> done with food products) or if they are finally bumped up to $12
> apiece.
I don't think it's the size, necessarily, that determines the cost of
the toy, but its complexity. I remember Hasbro saying once that for
the Star Wars action figures, for example, a tiny little Jawa costs
just as much for them to produce as, say, Darth Vader. (The cloth
cape was added to the vintage Jawa, replacing the vinyl cape so people
would think they were getting more bang for their buck.)
I think if Hasbro were to cut costs on the Deluxes, hypothetically
speaking, they'd axe the spring-loaded gimmicks or some of the
articulation or a handful of paint applications or something. (Or
just stuff more redeco versions of existing toys into the shipping
case to help amortize the cost. After all, Hasbro sells toys by case,
not by individual unit.)
Zob
Zobovor
> Furthermore, there are liabilities attached to larger toys; being big
> and heavy and expensive, they can be less good for play and even display.
> Primus is really cool, but he takes up a lot of shelf.
That's why you transform him to planet mode and hang him from the
ceiling, silly.
Zob
Zobovor
>They very rarely sell items for less than what they paid
> the manufacturer for them. I'll look into it and get back to you
> with some figures.
As promised! The last time I did this, people didn't really
understand the numbers, so here's a quick lesson: Wholesale, or cost,
is the price the store pays the manufacturer. Markup, or margin,
describes the amount that price is marked up to arrive at the store's
retail price. This is how the store makes a profit. Wholesale plus
markup equals retail. (Note that occasionally a store will sell an
item below cost, usually when it's on clearance or when they're trying
to entice shoppers into the store so they'll buy additional items that
the store *does* make a profit on. When stores do this, though, they
sell the item for less than what they paid for it.)
I know we were talking about Deluxes, but I just wrote down some
information about all the price points I could find at the store:
Robot Heroes. Retail $6.36; markup 37.11%; cost $4.00.
Allspark Battles. Retail $6.88; markup 24.85%; cost $5.18.
Real Gear Robots. Retail $7.44; markup 27.28%; cost $5.41.
Cyber Slammers. Retail $7.96; markup 23.24%; cost $6.11.
Deluxe Class. Retail $9.96; markup 24.50%; cost $7.52.
Fast Action Battlers. Retail $9.96; markup 26.81; cost $7.29.
Star Wars Transformers. Retail $14.97; markup 29.33%; cost $10.57.
Voyager Class. Retail $19.76; markup 23.89%; cost $15.03.
Movie Screen Battles. Retail $19.76; markup 23.89%; cost $15.03.
Roll Play [sic] Helmet. Retail $28.88; markup 18.63%; cost $23.49.
Leader Class. Retail $39.67; markup 21.80%; cost $31.02.
On average, the markup seems to hover around twenty to twenty-five
percent, which seems to be pretty standard for the industry. (A lot
of lower-priced items actually have a much higher markup. A lot of
party supplies, like balloons and streamers, have around a 50%
markup. That means the store is actually charging one-and-a-half
times what they paid for the merchandise.)
And I do need to ask this: Is "Roll Play" supposed to be a pun?
(Probably not. I still thought it was funny, though. Right now at
work, they're raffling off a kid-sized car that one of the vendors
gave to the store. It's sort of like a Power Wheels car, only it's
got pedals instead of a motor. Somebody put signs up for the raffle
that read PEDDLE CAR. Which, I guess, is technically correct,
inasmuch as they're trying to peddle the thing to the employees. But
still.)
(One of these days, this superiority complex of mine is gonna get me
in big, big trouble.)
Zob
Chad Rushing
>
> > I agree. I think the only reason why Deluxes continue to sell at $10
> > at retail is because Wal-Mart (and subsequently Target) refuses to
> > raise the price on them, even if that means their profit margin on
> > them is slim to none.
>
> Actually, I'm quite certain Wal-Mart is still making money off that
> size class. They very rarely sell items for less than what they paid
> the manufacturer for them. I'll look into it and get back to you with
> some figures.
It is my understanding that Wal-Mart has a pretty tight profit margin
on most cheaper, common items, but they reap huge cummulative profits
from selling so many zillions of those items.
Furthermore, I thought I had read somewhere that Wal-Mart will often
sell some cheaper items at cost or even less (i.e., loss leaders) in
order to attract in buyers who will hopefully buy more expensive items
while they were in the store. Considering the Deluxe at Wal-Mart has
been $10 for the past 7-8 years(?) despite constant inflation, I
assumed that the profit they make off of those has been eaten into
accordingly. (Yes, I know what they say about "assuming" things.)
- Chad
Chad Rushing
>
> I know we were talking about Deluxes, but I just wrote down some
> information about all the price points I could find at the store:
>
> Robot Heroes. Retail $6.36; markup 37.11%; cost $4.00.
> Allspark Battles. Retail $6.88; markup 24.85%; cost $5.18.
> Real Gear Robots. Retail $7.44; markup 27.28%; cost $5.41.
> Cyber Slammers. Retail $7.96; markup 23.24%; cost $6.11.
> Deluxe Class. Retail $9.96; markup 24.50%; cost $7.52.
> Fast Action Battlers. Retail $9.96; markup 26.81; cost $7.29.
> Star Wars Transformers. Retail $14.97; markup 29.33%; cost $10.57.
> Voyager Class. Retail $19.76; markup 23.89%; cost $15.03.
> Movie Screen Battles. Retail $19.76; markup 23.89%; cost $15.03.
> Roll Play [sic] Helmet. Retail $28.88; markup 18.63%; cost $23.49.
> Leader Class. Retail $39.67; markup 21.80%; cost $31.02.
>
> On average, the markup seems to hover around twenty to twenty-five
> percent, which seems to be pretty standard for the industry. (A lot
> of lower-priced items actually have a much higher markup. A lot of
> party supplies, like balloons and streamers, have around a 50%
> markup. That means the store is actually charging one-and-a-half
> times what they paid for the merchandise.)
Now, there are some interesting numbers which blow my theories on Wal-
Mart profit margins on toys totally out of the water. I humbly stand
corrected.
I do think it is worth pointing out, though, that Wal-Mart might get
some kind of outrageous bulk discount on wholesale prices when
ordering toys from Hasbro that is out of reach for most smaller
retailers. Either that or smaller retailers go for a higher profit
margin per item, because they sell so fewer items.
- Chad
ShadowWing
"Chad Rushing" wrote
> Zobovor wrote:
>>
>> Would you pick Basic/Scout class (around $5), Deluxe (around $10),
>> Voyager/Ultra (around $20), Leader class (around $40), or something
>> else entirely?
>
> No contest whatsoever for me ... It would absolutely be the Deluxe
> ($10) class. They are big enough to have a reasonable degree of
> complexity, articulation, and "character" while they are incredibly
> easy to store if you just keep the cardbacks and instructions to
> them. Also, they are the perfect size to piddle with, transforming
> back and forth while you watch BW through for the third or fourth
> time.
Likewise, for the same reasons.
Zobovor
> I do think it is worth pointing out, though, that Wal-Mart might get
> some kind of outrageous bulk discount on wholesale prices when
> ordering toys from Hasbro that is out of reach for most smaller
> retailers. Either that or smaller retailers go for a higher profit
> margin per item, because they sell so fewer items.
Oh, I have no doubt that this is true. Frederick Feltman reported
some information a few years back about Toys "R" Us and their
wholesale prices. They typically paid Hasbro more for the same toys
than Wal-Mart did, and Toys "R" Us isn't exactly a small retailer.
Like you said, Wal-Mart gets 'em for cheap because they have a lot
more buying power.
Zob
necrotron
"Zobovor" <zm...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:cb223f20-7cbe-40ca...@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Gotta be Voyager Class then. Good size/value ratio, room for gimmicks.
Some of the best toys are in that sizeclass/price point.
Joe
Necrotron
Onslaught Six
> I think if Hasbro were to cut costs on the Deluxes, hypothetically
> speaking, they'd axe the spring-loaded gimmicks or some of the
> articulation or a handful of paint applications or something. (Or
> just stuff more redeco versions of existing toys into the shipping
> case to help amortize the cost. After all, Hasbro sells toys by case,
> not by individual unit.)
Didn't we already start to see some of that during Classics? Many of
the toys had no real gimmick to speak of (Astrotrain, Mirage, Prime
and Megatron come to mind) while all three of the Mega toys we got
seemed, in both proportion and complexity, equal to the 'older' $15
Mega toys that existed until the end of RID instead of the larger $20
Megas we've seen throughout ArmEnerTron.
Of course, the movie throws this out of whack a bit because most of
its toys are fully gimmicked and everything, but that's the Big Budget
Movie Toyline, and not really mainline. The next Classics line is
getting by on old Cybertron repaints for at least half of it (which is
great, because I totally dig those moulds and wish they'd done this
sooner) so I'm thinking it's getting knocked back a bit as well.
David Willis
>the toys had no real gimmick to speak of (Astrotrain,
Astrotrain's a Triple Changer!
--David
Kil - Michael McCarthy
> Of course, the movie throws this out of whack a bit because most of
> its toys are fully gimmicked and everything, but that's the Big Budget
> Movie Toyline, and not really mainline. The next Classics line is
> getting by on old Cybertron repaints for at least half of it (which is
> great, because I totally dig those moulds and wish they'd done this
> sooner) so I'm thinking it's getting knocked back a bit as well.
Half? How do you figure that?
Autobus Prime
> On Feb 28, 1:00 pm, Zobovor <zm...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > I think if Hasbro were to cut costs on the Deluxes, hypothetically
> > speaking, they'd axe the spring-loaded gimmicks or some of the
> > articulation or a handful of paint applications or something.
> Didn't we already start to see some of that during Classics? Many of
> the toys had no real gimmick to speak of (Astrotrain, Mirage, Prime
> and Megatron come to mind) while all three of the Mega toys we got
> seemed, in both proportion and complexity, equal to the 'older' $15
> Mega toys that existed until the end of RID instead of the larger $20
> Megas we've seen throughout ArmEnerTron.
O6:
I never did get Megatron. The Prime mold is small. Jetfire is pretty
normal-sized for a plane. He doesn't look underfed next to
C-Soundwave the way my Ultra Magnus does.
Still, given that there weren't really things like minicon-launchers
and key-activated salad shooters, it would not surprise me if Hasbro
made more per unit on the Classics. That's fine with me, because
they were really really cool.
Onslaught Six
wrote:
> Half? How do you figure that?
Rough estimation/exaggeration. You'll find I do that a lot with stuff
in general.
Onslaught Six
> Astrotrain's a Triple Changer!
I guess there's that, but...I dunno, I have trouble buying it.
Onslaught Six
> I never did get Megatron.
You really should. He's a great upate, that. Would have preferred if
his purple was coloured red, but eh.
> The Prime mold is small. Jetfire is pretty
> normal-sized for a plane. He doesn't look underfed next to
> C-Soundwave the way my Ultra Magnus does.
Compare Jetfire to other earlier $20 toys like Energon Shockblast or
Cybertron Mudflap. He's smaller! And not as tall. Altmode scale
doesn't bother me nearly as much as Robot Scale does.
> Still, given that there weren't really things like minicon-launchers
> and key-activated salad shooters, it would not surprise me if Hasbro
> made more per unit on the Classics. That's fine with me, because
> they were really really cool.
They likely did. And I'm not putting down Classics by claiming they
were inferior to earlier toys--far from it. The Classics are some of
my favourite toys ever.
David Willis
>
> I guess there's that, but...I dunno, I have trouble buying it.
That triple-changing is a gimmick? That's pretty weird.
--David
www.shortpacked.com
Zobovor
> > I think if Hasbro were to cut costs on the Deluxes, hypothetically
> > speaking, they'd axe the spring-loaded gimmicks or some of the
> > articulation or a handful of paint applications or something.
>
> Didn't we already start to see some of that during Classics? Many of
> the toys had no real gimmick to speak of (Astrotrain, Mirage, Prime
> and Megatron come to mind)
Yeah, Mirage was suspiciously gimmick-less, and I'm at a loss to
explain it. I'm also kind of surprised that Prime and Megatron didn't
have any spring-loaded weapons, which is very strange for toys at
their price point. (Megatron's got a spring-powered trigger, but that
hardly counts. You'd think he could have launched bright orange
missiles or something.)
I'm wondering if it has something to do with the fact that these toys
were specifically designed to represent G1 characters, and that Hasbro
didn't have any plans to use the molds more than once? They got some
mileage out of Starscream, of course, but if it weren't for the
upcoming BotCon 2008 exclusives, it's possible these production molds
would never have seen the light of day again. (This is a pretty weak
excuse, I admit, but it's the best one I've got. I think Hasbro would
be more likely to pay for more expensive, gimmicky toys if they know
they can sell a couple of redeco versions down the road.)
I do agree with Walky about Astrotrain's triple-changing feature
counting as his specific gimmick. That requires extra engineering and
more moving parts per unit, and that costs money. (The Beast Wars toy
line was very consistent about giving every single Deluxe toy either a
spring-powered or a water-squirting gimmick... until the triple-
changing Transmetals.)
> ...while all three of the Mega toys we got
> seemed, in both proportion and complexity, equal to the 'older' $15
> Mega toys that existed until the end of RID instead of the larger $20
> Megas we've seen throughout ArmEnerTron.
Well, the Mega Class doesn't really exist anymore. That used to be
the $15 price point for Beast Wars toys like Scorponok and Polar Claw
and RiD toys like Sky-Byte. The large Classics toys were all $20,
which would make them more equivalent to the Ultra Class or today's
Voyager Class.
I'm not complaining about the lack of gimmickyness in the Classics
toys, of course. I say, if it works for the toy, go for it... but if
it ruins the toy's design, then axe it. There are a lot of toys that
I've strongly disliked in recent years because the gimmick interferes
with the aesthetics or the design in some way. I hate Barricade's
stupid power-punch feature, for example. I really wish he just had
two regular arms.
Zob
SteveD
>Yeah, Mirage was suspiciously gimmick-less, and I'm at a loss to
>explain it.
Does an integrated weapon count?
-SteveD
ShadowWing
"SteveD" wrote
> Zobovor wrote:
>
>>Yeah, Mirage was suspiciously gimmick-less, and I'm at a loss to
>>explain it.
>
> Does an integrated weapon count?
Not really. Not anymore, anyway. Integrated (or at least storable)
weapons have been the norm since Beast Wars. Gimmicks are usually exceptions
to the norm.
Kil - Michael McCarthy
> I'm wondering if it has something to do with the fact that these toys
> were specifically designed to represent G1 characters, and that Hasbro
> didn't have any plans to use the molds more than once? They got some
> mileage out of Starscream, of course, but if it weren't for the
> upcoming BotCon 2008 exclusives, it's possible these production molds
> would never have seen the light of day again. (This is a pretty weak
> excuse, I admit, but it's the best one I've got. I think Hasbro would
> be more likely to pay for more expensive, gimmicky toys if they know
> they can sell a couple of redeco versions down the road.)
Seems unlikely to me. Almost every mold ends up getting used at least twice
these days. Even within the original Classics, the Prime and Starscream
molds were re-used for the Ultra Magnus vs Skywarp set. And all they're all
getting used again with the upcoming new Japanese versions, which were
pretty much inevitable.
Maybe, with Classics being a filler line needed to cover the gap between
Cybertron and the Movie, they had less time to work on the engineering and
so just left a lot of the usual gimmickery out? Or felt firing missiles and
lights and such weren't quite as needed with a more collector-oriented line
as they are with the standard kid-oriented ones?
-Kil
Onslaught Six
> Yeah, Mirage was suspiciously gimmick-less, and I'm at a loss to
> explain it. I'm also kind of surprised that Prime and Megatron didn't
> have any spring-loaded weapons, which is very strange for toys at
> their price point. (Megatron's got a spring-powered trigger, but that
> hardly counts. You'd think he could have launched bright orange
> missiles or something.)
Apparently Mirage's gimmick was supposed to be his "super
articulation." It just never got to packaging. That's still a really
weak excuse, though.
Come to think, Bumblebee doesn't really have much of a gimmick besides
his little jetski/jetpack thing, does he? And that was probably only
added to make him seem big enough in comparison to the others.
> I'm wondering if it has something to do with the fact that these toys
> were specifically designed to represent G1 characters, and that Hasbro
> didn't have any plans to use the molds more than once? They got some
> mileage out of Starscream, of course, but if it weren't for the
> upcoming BotCon 2008 exclusives, it's possible these production molds
> would never have seen the light of day again. (This is a pretty weak
> excuse, I admit, but it's the best one I've got. I think Hasbro would
> be more likely to pay for more expensive, gimmicky toys if they know
> they can sell a couple of redeco versions down the road.)
I'll give you that for many of the moulds, but there was 'no' way they
weren't going to repaint Starscream into at least one other Seeker,
and Cliffjumper from Bumblebee was almost a given.
> I do agree with Walky about Astrotrain's triple-changing feature
> counting as his specific gimmick. That requires extra engineering and
> more moving parts per unit, and that costs money. (The Beast Wars toy
> line was very consistent about giving every single Deluxe toy either a
> spring-powered or a water-squirting gimmick... until the triple-
> changing Transmetals.)
Alright, alright, I relent. >.>
> Well, the Mega Class doesn't really exist anymore. That used to be
> the $15 price point for Beast Wars toys like Scorponok and Polar Claw
> and RiD toys like Sky-Byte. The large Classics toys were all $20,
> which would make them more equivalent to the Ultra Class or today's
> Voyager Class.
While this is true, that doesn't mean their actual complexity and size
wouldn't make them an Old Mega toy if they were made ten years ago. Or
that Hasbro couldn't outright 'recreate' the Old Mega class for
Classics if they so desired.
Interestingly enough, the current Mega/Voyager class is an interesting
point. During Armada and Energon, these toys had electronics, but come
Cybertron, they did not. Yet they cost the same, and weren't generally
of any greater size or complexity. Huh.
> I'm not complaining about the lack of gimmickyness in the Classics
> toys, of course. I say, if it works for the toy, go for it... but if
> it ruins the toy's design, then axe it. There are a lot of toys that
> I've strongly disliked in recent years because the gimmick interferes
> with the aesthetics or the design in some way. I hate Barricade's
> stupid power-punch feature, for example. I really wish he just had
> two regular arms.
Indeed. I disagree about Barricade's punch gimmick though. I mean, I
agree it's pretty lame, but it doesn't directly interfere with my
enjoyment of the toy. His complete lack of head articulation does,
though...
Gustavo Wombat
> On Mar 2, 12:33 am, Zobovor <zm...@aol.com> wrote:
> > I do agree with Walky about Astrotrain's triple-changing feature
> > counting as his specific gimmick. That requires extra engineering and
> > more moving parts per unit, and that costs money. (The Beast Wars toy
> > line was very consistent about giving every single Deluxe toy either a
> > spring-powered or a water-squirting gimmick... until the triple-
> > changing Transmetals.)
>
> Alright, alright, I relent. >.>
The Transmetals had the shiny chromy chunks as their gimmick. (And the
third modes weren't so special most of the time anyway)
Gustavo!
Zobovor
wrote:
>Or [Hasbro] felt firing missiles and lights and such weren't quite as
>needed with a more collector-oriented line as they are with the standard
>kid-oriented ones?
Ah, I suspect that may be the true reasoning behind it. The Titanium
Series didn't really have too many value-added gimmicks, either (one
could argue that their die-cast metal composition was a gimmick unto
itself, I guess) and that seemed to be aimed predominantly at
collectors, too.
Zob
Zobovor
> Apparently Mirage's gimmick was supposed to be his "super
> articulation." It just never got to packaging.
Mirage doesn't really seem to have much more articulation than any of
the other Classics toys. (Maybe all his paint applications sucked up
the alloted bugdet? Reaching, yes, I know...)
> Come to think, Bumblebee doesn't really have much of a gimmick besides
> his little jetski/jetpack thing, does he?
I'm beginning to feel a little ripped off. Hasbro screwed us all
over!
> Interestingly enough, the current Mega/Voyager class is an interesting
> point. During Armada and Energon, these toys had electronics, but come
> Cybertron, they did not. Yet they cost the same, and weren't generally
> of any greater size or complexity. Huh.
Stop lumping Mega and Voyager together! They're not the same thing!
That said, maybe Hasbro *is* cutting corners. None of the Voyager
movie toys have an electronics package, either, though I suppose they
are significantly more complex than like-sized toys in recent years.
Zob
Onslaught Six
> Ah, I suspect that may be the true reasoning behind it. The Titanium
> Series didn't really have too many value-added gimmicks, either (one
> could argue that their die-cast metal composition was a gimmick unto
> itself, I guess) and that seemed to be aimed predominantly at
> collectors, too.
Mind, the Titanium series was handled by the Galoob/Micro Machines
division, and not the regular TF guys, so there's that to account for.
Onslaught Six
> Mirage doesn't really seem to have much more articulation than any of
> the other Classics toys. (Maybe all his paint applications sucked up
> the alloted bugdet? Reaching, yes, I know...)
I agree. When that little tidbit came out, I thought it was a weak
excuse for a gimmick and I was glad he didn't have it on his
packaging.
> I'm beginning to feel a little ripped off. Hasbro screwed us all
> over!
They've been doing it for years, apparently!
> Stop lumping Mega and Voyager together! They're not the same thing!
It's the price point that's between Deluxe and Ultra. That's a Mega.
If you need further proof, the $20 toys weren't labelled as "Voyagers"
until Cybertron--throughout Energon (with its glorious box-shaped
boxes) they were referred to as Megas. I just happen to think Voyager
is a pitifully awful price point name and that it doesn't fit the
naming convention established by the 90s 'at all.' (If you ever
notice, I do the same thing with the "Leader" price point and call it
Super, because that's what it is, and it sounds cooler, and half the
toys in the price point aren't Leaders anyway.)
> That said, maybe Hasbro *is* cutting corners. None of the Voyager
> movie toys have an electronics package, either, though I suppose they
> are significantly more complex than like-sized toys in recent years.
Mind, the Megas/Voyagers lacked electronics all throughout Cybertron--
and most of the toys are actually better for it. My two favourite
Energon toys of that price point, Dreadwing and Shockblast, are both
generally hampered by large electronic packs that they altogether
"required" as part of their price point, and that factors into their
designs considerably--Shockblast has that huge doofy cannon arm, and
I'm afraid I'm going to break Dreadwing's backpack whenever I
transform it. A lot of the Super/Leader class toys seem to be able to
integrate electronics 'much' better due to their larger scale--I
hardly notice the electronics in Galaxy Convoy or Megaloplex.
Incidentally, Vector Prime is a Mega/Voyager toy that 'does' have
electronics--and I'm fairly sure he was originally meant to have an
impressive light up chest gimmick also. (The light would've shone
through his Cyber Planet Key in his chest and been all spiffy.)
David Willis
> If you need further proof, the $20 toys weren't labelled as "Voyagers"
> until Cybertron--throughout Energon (with its glorious box-shaped
> boxes) they were referred to as Megas.
It's not really that clear-cut. Universe Ultras were $20, existing
concurrently with the Unicron Trilogy size classes.
--David
www.shortpacked.com
Onslaught Six
> It's not really that clear-cut. Universe Ultras were $20, existing
> concurrently with the Unicron Trilogy size classes.
But Universe started at a time when we had no clear-cut associated
names for the current size classes--just those ridiculous "Supercon"
and "Maxcon" names.
Zobovor
> But Universe started at a time when we had no clear-cut associated
> names for the current size classes--just those ridiculous "Supercon"
> and "Maxcon" names.
Those were both part of the new size class terminology that was
invented for Armada, and while I agree that it was pretty ridiculous,
it was internally consistent.
Basic = Minicon
Deluxe = Supercon
Mega = didn't exist
Ultra = Maxcon
new class = Gigacon
It seems to me that a lot of fans continued to use the Deluxe/Mega/
Ultra nomenclature even after Hasbro adjusted the names and price
points for the size classes. I don't really think they were
equatable, since Mega was a $15 price point but the Maxcon toys
actually retailed at $20. Likewise, the Ultra toys were originally
$20 but the Gigacons were around $25.
To me, calling a toy a Mega/Voyager is giving it two different
classifications. It's like calling Tankorr a Machine Wars/Beast
Machines character.
Zob
Zobovor
>I just happen to think Voyager is a pitifully awful price point name and that
>it doesn't fit the naming convention established by the 90s 'at all.'
I don't much like the way they keep playing fast-and-loose with the
terminology, either. Plus, every time I read the term "Voyager-class"
I think of Star Trek. (Maybe Hasbro just needs to go whole hog and
name *all* the size classes after Star Trek. I hereby decree that $10
toys are Constitution-class and that $40 toys are Galaxy-class. What
are the six-dollar toys? Uh, I dunno. Defiant-class. That word
begins to lose its meaning when I type it too much. Class, class,
class.)
>(If you ever notice, I do the same thing with the "Leader" price point and
>call it Super, because that's what it is, and it sounds cooler
Super was a $30 price point, though. Optimal Optimus was a Super
Class toy. The newer Leader Class would be more equatable to the
Supreme class, I think, which was also $40. (Or the "Superbase,"
which I believe was Optimus Prime's designation in Armada.)
>...and half the toys in the price point aren't Leaders anyway.)
And some *leaders* aren't even in that price point. I bought the $20
versions of movie Optimus and movie Megatron, so they're leaders who
aren't Leaders. (That word also starts to lose its meaning if you
type it too much. Leader, leader, leader.)
Zob
Lars Eriksson
> Those were both part of the new size class terminology that was
> invented for Armada, and while I agree that it was pretty ridiculous,
> it was internally consistent.
>
> Basic = Minicon
> Deluxe = Supercon
> Mega = didn't exist
> Ultra = Maxcon
> new class = Gigacon
Eh? Max-Cons corresponding to Ultras? Those are size classes, not price
points. The Max-Cons related to the Super-Cons as the Megas related to
the Deluxes; same thing with Giga-Cons and Ultras; so the Max-Cons
correspond to Megas and Giga-Cons to Ultras.
If you choose to go by the prices, then you should list Mini-Cons as a
new class too, to be consistent. They were more expensive than the BW
Basics, so going by your reasoning they can't be the same class.
--
Lars Eriksson, grounds...@ntfa.net
Founder of the Nordic TransFans Association (NTFA)
NTFA home page: http://www.ntfa.net
Zobovor
> Eh? Max-Cons corresponding to Ultras? Those are size classes, not price
> points.
You know, I'd originally typed up the Maxcons = Megas and Gigacons =
Ultras comparison but then I started second-guessing myself and
decided that it couldn't be right because of the pricing differences.
Sigh. You're right.
Also, it turns out that even during Armada, Hasbro was ignoring the
size classifications in favor of the system developed for Beast Wars!
Ha!
(In my defense, though, I haven't taken any of my Armada toys out of
storage since, like, 2003. It's a miracle I've been able to summon
anything about the line from memory at all.)
Zob
Kil - Michael McCarthy
news:cb223f20-7cbe-40ca...@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> selling Transformers toys at a single price point. All future toys
> will be part of this price point. Assume that you have a say in their
> decision. What price point would you choose, and why? (Keep in mind
> that toys at a lower price point might be more affordable, but would
> probably have less complexity and fewer features like electronic
> gimmicks. Toys at a higher price point might have more articulation
> and more intricate designs, but the expense would put a limit on how
> many toys Hasbro could produce in a given year.)
>
> Would you pick Basic/Scout class (around $5), Deluxe (around $10),
> Voyager/Ultra (around $20), Leader class (around $40), or something
> else entirely?
I' think I'd have to go with Scout, for the affordability factor.
-Kil