human drawing style -- realistic or abstract?
Weapon X
What kind of drawing style do/would U prefer for the next TF series
concerning "human beings"? Realistic like in Starcom, original G1, &
ThunderCats ..... or abstract, like most anime (i.e., "Car Robots: TF"
/ "Robots In Disgusie") shows?
You decide.
my special PowerMaster Prime setup:
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/spidermanwwweb
Iron Wookiee
>concerning "human beings"? Realistic like in Starcom, original G1, &
>ThunderCats ..... or abstract, like most anime (i.e., "Car Robots: TF"
>/ "Robots In Disgusie") shows?
None. The best TF show ever had no humans at all... Towards the end it
had proto-humans, but no fully developed humans.
And that's the way it should be. :)
Galenraff
wrote:
> 11:58 PM EST, July 7th, '03
>
> What kind of drawing style do/would U prefer for the next TF series
> concerning "human beings"? Realistic like in Starcom, original G1, &
> ThunderCats ..... or abstract, like most anime (i.e., "Car Robots: TF"
> / "Robots In Disgusie") shows?
>
> You decide.
I'd prefer realistic, though I haven't seen Starcom. I just know that
I never really liked this abstract version too much. Unless it's
quite abstract, like in Batman: The Animated Series or Powerpuff
Girls, but doing that in TFs would likely necessitate some
strange-looking robots, and I'd prefer them to look more realistic,
too.
-----------Galenraff-------------
Whenever there's a power outage and I'm told by the electric
company that it's because of a blown Transformer, it always
makes me laugh just a little inside.
Ethan Hammond
--
All Purpose Cultural Randomness
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/apcr/index.html
member0
> On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 04:07:17 GMT, Weapon X <QSBA1...@prodigy.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>11:58 PM EST, July 7th, '03
>>
>>What kind of drawing style do/would U prefer for the next TF series
>>concerning "human beings"? Realistic like in Starcom, original G1, &
>>ThunderCats ..... or abstract, like most anime (i.e., "Car Robots: TF"
>>/ "Robots In Disgusie") shows?
>>
>>You decide.
>
>
> I'd prefer realistic, though I haven't seen Starcom. I just know that
> I never really liked this abstract version too much. Unless it's
> quite abstract, like in Batman: The Animated Series or Powerpuff
> Girls, but doing that in TFs would likely necessitate some
> strange-looking robots, and I'd prefer them to look more realistic,
> too.
Realistic... Giant Robots?
I'm confused. What would you compare them to as an example of a real
giant robot?
I'm just teasing, by the way. I guess you mean you prefer the more
simple basic-geometric robot designs, like what Marvel did for the
Transformers cartoon and comic back in '84, as opposed to more complex
and stylised designs, such as those often found in Japanese art?
Ah, here's a good example:
This Metroplex:
http://www.seibertron.com/cotm/200203/Metroplex_u001.jpg
Versus this Metroplex:
http://www.seibertron.com/cotm/200203/Metroplex_u002.gif
Whereas for humans you don't mind. When it comes to a Transformers show
or comic, I can't say I do either. Sometimes anime-style character
designs can be irritating, but not often in my opinion. As for robot
designs, I'd *love* it if they could keep the crazy detail like in the
second Metroplex picture in every frame, but I've always liked crazy
designs like that, and not just for Transformers.
----
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W_ - _X
On 11:58 PM EST, 7-7-2003, "Weapon X" <QSBA1...@prodigy.net> wrote in
<3F0A4365...@prodigy.net>:
> What kind of drawing style do/would U prefer for the next TF series
> concerning "human beings"? Realistic like in Starcom, original G1, &
> ThunderCats, and maybe Japanese HeadMasters series ..... or abstract,
> like most anime (i.e., "Car Robots: TF"/ "Robots In Disguise", Beast
> Wars 2nd) shows?
I also wanted to add to this is that the "drawing of the Transformers"
(robots themselves) would be independent of how the humans were
designed. The reason I say this is that there are a lot of Japanese
anime involving robots that look so real and move so fluidly and
realistically and yet have 'humans characters' that look very abstract
and sometimes move/animate unrealistically.
See some eps of 'Mon Colle Knights', this show actually mixes realistic
humans (as in "normal eyes, realistic facial designs") with the *typical
anime style* of drawing humans (as in "big-eyed, unrealistic facial &
head designs"). My point is that a mixing of realistic and abstract
styles can be done and, in fact, has been done.
So, casting off those preconceived notions of a show being all abstract
or all realistic, if the TFs were drawn in your favorite style, be that
simple like in G1 or stylized like in COTP or whatever, what would U
prefer the humans to be drawn in? I stress this again, they, the human
char.s, don't have to be drawn in the same design style as the robots.
However, very abstract and very realistic may look weird, as in (a show
w/ ) PPG-style humans with Gundam EW Mobile Suits(robots). Hehe.
So, you may wanna pick a level of abstraction(What the heck kind of
phrase is that, anyway?) that's not so abstract ... uhh, yeah.
Unless you did want the mixing of art styles to be so obvious to the
viewer, then disregard the above statement.
WeaponX
On Tue, 8 Jul 2003, 4:51:39 GMT, Galenraff <Gale...@aol.com> wrote in
<eajkgvkrfh7egrnq8...@4ax.com>:
> On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 04:07:17 GMT, Weapon X <QSBA1...@prodigy.net>
> wrote:
>>What kind of drawing style do/would U prefer for the next TF series
>>concerning "human beings"? Realistic like in Starcom, original G1, &
>>ThunderCats ..... or abstract, like most anime (i.e., "Car Robots: TF"
>>/ "Robots In Disguise") shows?
> I'd prefer realistic, though I haven't seen Starcom. I just know that
> I never really liked this abstract version too much. Unless it's
> quite abstract, like in Batman: The Animated Series or Powerpuff
> Girls, but doing that in TFs would likely necessitate some
> strange-looking robots, and I'd prefer them to look more realistic,
> too.
Yeah, having Blossom in a CG-ized mech from "Macross Zero" would involve
one to stretch his/her imagination far .... very far. She would stick
out like a sore thumb if we saw her in that pilot seat of the Valkyrie.
The controls were drawn for human hands but yet Blossom can manipulate
them w/ no palm & fingers! ;)
Because of her extremely abstract nature contrasted with the realism of
the mecha, this is what makes it harder for most people to suspend
disbelief and try to enjoy the show. The less abstract the characters
are drawn, the more apt ppl are to believing and thus enjoy watching an
animation show, I guess.
Now if Blossom were drawn like a char. from the new Teen Titans cartoon
(still, pretty abstract but not as much as PPG-style), the believability
of her piloting that mech is at a level most ppl are comfortable
at...probably. Well, she'll have fingers now, heh.
My above example was for something that would mix art styles, but I get
where you're getting at. I'm just wondering what style people prefer
when the TF robots are drawn very realistically and that the humans can
be drawn in a different style.
To everyone, if U have an example of an actual cartoon/anime style U
prefer, U can list that/those as well, if U wish.
Ethan Hammond
>
> Ah, here's a good example:
>
> This Metroplex:
> http://www.seibertron.com/cotm/200203/Metroplex_u001.jpg
> Versus this Metroplex:
> http://www.seibertron.com/cotm/200203/Metroplex_u002.gif
I actually like the first one better, but that is probably just because
I am used to it.
Onslaught Six
> See some eps of 'Mon Colle Knights', this show actually mixes realistic
> humans (as in "normal eyes, realistic facial designs") with the *typical
> anime style* of drawing humans (as in "big-eyed, unrealistic facial &
> head designs"). My point is that a mixing of realistic and abstract
> styles can be done and, in fact, has been done.
Didn't Dragonball do that (even though to a lesser extent)? Or am I
just remembering former shows preceeding Armada on Toonami wrong?
Derik Smith
>Now if Blossom were drawn like a char. from the new Teen Titans cartoon
>(still, pretty abstract but not as much as PPG-style), the believability
>of her piloting that mech is at a level most ppl are comfortable
>at...probably. Well, she'll have fingers now, heh.
Now, I've never been entirely clear on this, but I had a friend claiming
to me that even internal to the Powerpuff 'universe,' the PPG's actually ARE
freakishly deformed. They actually do LACK fingers, their arms being flexible
limps of flesh. Notice that other characters have fingers.
...said friend was descriving these fingerless flesh-nube in graphic
sexual terms, so you may want to take it with a grain of salt...
-Derik
"You have zero talent. Give up writing." -Yuki Eiri, Gravitation
"I know that if I bought an 'Evil Decepticon' and eventually
discovered that he was just misunderstood, I'd feel pretty ripped off." -G.
Wombat
Ass on the internet.
Zobovor the Occasionally Flummoxed
> Now, I've never been entirely clear on this, but I had a friend claiming
>to me that even internal to the Powerpuff 'universe,' the PPG's actually ARE
>freakishly deformed. They actually do LACK fingers, their arms being
>flexible limps of flesh.
Yes, this is true. There's an episode in which everybody in Townsville
switches bodies, and Buttercup is stuck in Professor Utonium's body. She goes
to answer the phone, but she just keeps swiping at the air. Finally, in
frustration, she yells, "Professor, your hands don't work!"
...Because being a perfect little girl apparently involves having absolutely no
manual dexterity, you see.
Zobovor, had an ObTF here somewhere, but I'll be darned if I can remember where
I put it. (Maybe that's what Crosswise was carrying off in her mouth.)
Túrin
>
> Derik Smith wrote:
>
> > Now, I've never been entirely clear on this, but I had a friend claiming
> >to me that even internal to the Powerpuff 'universe,' the PPG's actually ARE
> >freakishly deformed. They actually do LACK fingers, their arms being
> >flexible limps of flesh.
>
> Yes, this is true. There's an episode in which everybody in Townsville
> switches bodies, and Buttercup is stuck in Professor Utonium's body. She goes
> to answer the phone, but she just keeps swiping at the air. Finally, in
> frustration, she yells, "Professor, your hands don't work!"
Hey. I never watched an episode of Powerpuff girls until about two
weeks ago, and that's the one episode I've seen. Whadyaknow.
> Zobovor, had an ObTF here somewhere, but I'll be darned if I can remember where
> I put it. (Maybe that's what Crosswise was carrying off in her mouth.)
Here's one: for a brief time as a kid, I actually tried preferring
Go-Bots to Transformers. They were drawn much more toy-accurate, and I
considered it more honest. Their hands were closed fists most of the
time, that being their default, except when they were pointing or
something. In vehicle mode, Turbo's face was clearly visible underneath
the car, as it presumably was on the toy.
Transformers, on the other hand, didn't look very much like the toys.
They had hands and fingers, Megatron looked *totally* different,
Bumblebee had arms and legs, Cosmos had two legs, etc. I thought this
was dishonest on the part of the creators. I remember at that age also
being upset that the food at Jack in the Box didn't look like what was
pictured. Particularly their so-called "Ultimate Cheeseburger" which
looked so delectable in the picture on the menu and turned out to be
rather flat and odd-looking in real life. (Remember the Whammyburger
scene in Falling Down? Straight outta my childhood, minus the guns.)
Eventually, I realized that despite my best intentions, I *couldn't*
prefer Go-Bots... it just didn't have the storyline compared to
Transformers. I got beyond my weird design fixation and preferred
Transformers, as it was meant to be, or something.
Túrin
I like to be in America, okay by me in America, everthing free in
America, (for a small fee in America)...
Ethan Hammond
>
> > See some eps of 'Mon Colle Knights', this show actually mixes realistic
> > humans (as in "normal eyes, realistic facial designs") with the *typical
> > anime style* of drawing humans (as in "big-eyed, unrealistic facial &
> > head designs"). My point is that a mixing of realistic and abstract
> > styles can be done and, in fact, has been done.
>
> Didn't Dragonball do that (even though to a lesser extent)? Or am I
> just remembering former shows preceeding Armada on Toonami wrong?
Dragon Half does. ^_-
Tut
> > concerning "human beings"? Realistic like in Starcom, original G1, &
> > ThunderCats, and maybe Japanese HeadMasters series ..... or abstract,
> > like most anime (i.e., "Car Robots: TF"/ "Robots In Disguise", Beast
> > Wars 2nd) shows?
> w/ ) PPG-style humans with Gundam EW Mobile Suits(robots). Hehe.
Okay, first off...call me biased, but I think humans are a
necessary part of a Transformers show because they serve as a
wonderful counterpoint. They add an element of character interaction
and immediacy; even Dinobot's actions in "Code of Hero" were more
poignant because they were for the sake of humans who hadn't even
evolved yet. FWIW, Bryce Malek said at his BotCon '98 panel that
had the networks been involved in making the G1 cartoon, there
would have been more human characters involved.
That said, I like the more realistic anime style from the
mid-nineties. You mentioned "Endless Waltz" Gundams for the robot
style...I think the humans' drawing style from EW would work as well,
because it's not overly simplified and the figure drawing is
believable. A cartoonist told me once eons ago that for more sci-fi
and dramatic themes, realism is better than abstraction. I think
Transformers definitely would classify in that aspect.
Tut, doesn't care for the overly simplistic style in more recent
anime including Car Robots and Armada
WeaponX-
On 9 Jul 2003, 22:42:02 -0700, 'Tut' nebkh...@hotmail.com wrote in
<f87fc55c.03070...@posting.google.com>:
> W_ - _X <QSBA1...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:<3F0AD25...@prodigy.net>...
>>>What kind of drawing style do/would U prefer for the next TF series
>>>concerning "human beings"? Realistic like in Starcom, original G1, &
>>>ThunderCats, and maybe Japanese HeadMasters series ..... or abstract,
>>>like most anime (i.e., "Car Robots: TF"/ "Robots In Disguise", Beast
>>>Wars 2nd) shows?
>>However, very abstract and very realistic may look weird, as in (a show
>>w/ ) PPG-style humans with Gundam EW Mobile Suits(robots). Hehe.
> Okay, first off...call me biased, but I think humans are a
> necessary part of a Transformers show because they serve as a
> wonderful counterpoint. They add an element of character interaction
> and immediacy
[snip]
> That said, I like the more realistic anime style from the
> mid-nineties. You mentioned "Endless Waltz" Gundams for the robot
> style...I think the humans' drawing style from EW would work as well,
> because it's not overly simplified and the figure drawing is
> believable. A cartoonist told me once eons ago that for more sci-fi
> and dramatic themes, realism is better than abstraction. I think
> Transformers definitely would classify in that aspect.
Speaking of Gundam shows, I think the human character drawing style from
Gundam 0083 <is that the title?> would be almost perfect {I say "almost"
because a few characters are drawn in some stereotypical anime-style
fashion}. It resembles the realism of the 80s cartoons' humans but at a
much more better quality ... much more clean but still very exact. It is
also not so obviously stylized like Gundam G or slightly stylized as in
what you may notice in Gundam Wing or Gundam Endless Waltz <-- my opinions.
Gundam Wing is probably my favorite of most of the Gundam shows but I
like the look of humans in Gundam 0083 Stardust Memory & wish they would
draw humans for a next Transformers TV show like this. :-)
(if they were to have humans in it, of course)
> Tut, doesn't care for the overly simplistic style in more recent
> anime including Car Robots and Armada
I actually am a big fan of 'abstractly-drawn' characters, like those
found in most anime shows & movies, but for a Transformers show, I
actually would prefer a less abstract design to the humans. Something
very similar my previous example would be great.
Some info on that particular Gundam series:
http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue101/anime.html
http://www.geocities.com/gundam_uc0083/
http://www.gundamexpo.com/seriesinfo/0083intro.htm
http://side7.gundam.com/the_gundam_box/anime/series/0083.html
Here are some images from the show:
http://www.gundamw.net/gallery/pics_0083.shtml
http://pictures.gundamw.net/0083screens.html
http://ftp.osterman.com/pub/anime/pictures/gundam/Images/
http://www.bigfire.com/pictures/gundam/Images
http://haro000.tripod.com/wp0083.html
ShadowWing
"Ethan Hammond" wrote
> "member0" wrote in message
> >
> > Ah, here's a good example:
> >
> > This Metroplex:
> > http://www.seibertron.com/cotm/200203/Metroplex_u001.jpg
> > Versus this Metroplex:
> > http://www.seibertron.com/cotm/200203/Metroplex_u002.gif
>
> I actually like the first one better, but that is probably just because
> I am used to it.
I like the first one, too. The second one looks a little too meched out.
I think it's the overly obvious plating and the huge head guns. Somewhere in
between the two seems a better choice to me.
--
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Allan
On Tue, 8 Jul 2003, 23:13:53 +1200, "member0" <mem...@mac.com> wrote:
> Galenraff wrote:
>> On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 04:07:17 GMT, Weapon X <QSBA1...@prodigy.net>
>> wrote:
>>> 11:58 PM EST, July 7th, '03
>>> What kind of drawing style do/would U prefer for the next TF series
>>> concerning "human beings"? Realistic like in Starcom, original G1, &
>>> ThunderCats ..... or abstract, like most anime (i.e., "Car Robots:
>>> TF" / "Robots In Disguise", Beast Wars 2nd) shows?
>> I'd prefer realistic, though I haven't seen Starcom.
Pretty amazing Coleco made action figures, eh?
>> I just know that I never really liked this abstract version too much.
> Realistic... Giant Robots?
> I'm confused. What would you compare them to as an example of a real
> giant robot?
> I'm just teasing, by the way. I guess you mean you prefer the more
> simple basic-geometric robot designs, like what Marvel did for the
> Transformers cartoon and comic back in '84, as opposed to more complex
> and stylized designs, such as those often found in Japanese art?
> Ah, here's a good example:
> This Metroplex:
> http://www.seibertron.com/cotm/200203/Metroplex_u001.jpg
> Versus this Metroplex:
> http://www.seibertron.com/cotm/200203/Metroplex_u002.gif
The latter.. I would consider it more stylized.
Any TF from the show, comic, etc. can be made "realistic" with the right
artist. It doesn't even need to be 'stylized' like the Japanese
manga-influenced version of Metroplex that you showed to be (considered)
realistic in my opinion.
Realistic, in my opinion, is drawing (& also animating) the Transformers
in a consistent way so they show mass and rigid body structure. Examples
are: most scenes from TF:TM, the first episodes of Transformers: "More
Than Meets The Eye", the season 3 ep - 'The Smuggler'<title? It's the
one w/ the Technobots & Terrorcons>. Other examples (non-TF) : Gundam
Wing: Endless Waltz, Macross Plus, Robotech ep.: "Force Of Arms", &
probably the giant Eva units from Evangelion {haven't seen much of
these; though I'm not fond of the robot designs in that show, I am
impressed w/ how very well they, the animators, draw & animate them, the
Eva suits, as "giant robots"}.
Realistic in comics would also be like when Pat Lee *first drew*
Transformers. His first public sketches were more real and less stylized
compared w/ how he draws them now.
Unrealistic would be like many of the eps from TF season 3. I think the
drawing/animation in many of these eps had artists that seemed to not be
fully capable of presenting/expressing a mechanical being (on paper).
It's as if they were merely drawing squarish human beings and not
robots. Examples of unrealistic renditions of robots from other shows
that are not TF : the first Gundam show (hmm, I guess the animation was
what did not make the robots seem real, maybe).
Now the above seem to be my personal preferences, but I just wanted to
clear up what my definition of realistic for this thread was actually is.
> Whereas for humans you don't mind. When it comes to a Transformers show
> or comic, I can't say I do either. Sometimes anime-style character
> designs can be irritating, but not often in my opinion. As for robot
> designs, I'd *love* it if they could keep the crazy detail like in the
> second Metroplex picture in every frame, but I've always liked crazy
> designs like that, and not just for Transformers.
That would be something. Very interesting to see that one if they could
animate that style. ;)
Kil aka Michael McCarthy
:::: Examples are: most scenes from TF:TM, the first episodes of Transformers:
"More Than Meets The Eye", the season 3 ep - 'The Smuggler'<title? It's the one
"Money is Everything" I believe is the title you're thinking of.
-Kil
Mmmm..... Marissa Fairbourne......
--------
"One of these days..... milkshake...... BOOM!"
-The Evil Midnight Bomber What Bombs At Midnight