[Armada] Wee... not so wee.. or FRIGGIN' HUGE? (Kinda rambling)
Trent Troop
I looked at the numbers. And I'm starting to suspect that Armada, for many a
reason, is going to be a rather large toyline.And i don't mean just because
of the minicon numbers bulking up the figure tally. I mean in total
releases. As usual, if I miscount once or twice, forgive me, this is a lot
of figures to keep track of.
Bit 'o Evidence #1: The last two lines.
Leaving aside the store exclusives (of which we've had quite a few in
the past few years) and the Beast Wars releases (Mutants/FK repros), I did a
little tally work. Here's the release numbers for both lines. I counted only
one beast changer or deployer per mold, as I see the color changes more as
running corrections/variants than "new" figures intended to be new
characters or new character incarnations.
Beast Machines: Total - 45 / 8 Repaints/Remolds
Basics : 14
Deluxes: 17 / 7
Megas : 5
Ultras : 3 / 1
Larger : 1
Other : 5
RiD: Total - 38 / 32 Repaints/Remolds
Basics : 13 / 7
Deluxes: 15 / 14
Megas : 6
Ultras : 2
Larger : 2
Other : 0
Now, the last time hasbro produced 18 months of product for its own market
was Beast Machines, which pulls down an impressive 37 released, new molds.
The number would be 39 were we counting exclusives (and thus
Megabolt/Suprimal), but those didn't make the cut for main line release. RiD
had its own set of circumstances. In both cases the lines were large, 45
figures in Beast Machines, 38 in RiD. If you want to go year-by-year, in the
whole of 2000 and 2001, Beast Wars, Beast Machines and RiD totalled 81
releases. That averages out to about 40 figures per year, or 60 figures per
18 month period. In any event, Hasbro likes its TF lines large, much larger,
it seems than the beast wars eras. 1998 had 25 figures, for instance.
TF has done well of late, as is reflected in Hasbro's big push for Armada
with previously unheard of (at least since g1s hayday) liscensing and
promotion. 52 episodes, a comic book, minicomics, children's books, fast
food promotions a CCG and a video game to name a few. Joe and TF are
specificly mentioned by Hasbro as being a chunk of what put them back in the
black, and Joe is profiting from it. Something like 144 figures over two
years? that's 36 two-packs a year, and that doesn't even count vehicles. And
Joe hasn't had the top-ten sales figures TF has had over the past six years.
Also, lets look at initial wave size. Beast Machines had initial figure
waves of basics, deluxes and megas. Ultras and Supreme didn't show up until
a bit later, and the initial waves were 3 basics, 2 deluxes and 2 megas.
According to the toyfair press release, Armada is going to hit the scene
with 5 basics, 3 deluxes, 2 megas an Ultra and a Super, all in August. 7 vs
12. That's a bit more out the door almost immediately. RiD's initial wave
was similarly sized, but with 3 basics, 3 deluxes, 2 megas an ultra and a
pair of supers.
At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if we only have heard about 1/3rd of
the total line, given the initial wave sizes, the massive push being given
to the line, and the success of its predecessors. Not to mention the
plethora of names that have been trademarked. Yeah, minicon multipacks can
sure devour them fast, but even so, Hasbro has seen fit to register: Blurr,
Inferno, Fortress Maximus (possibly a contengency in case of a RiD store
exclusive), Jetfire (final Stormjet name, perhaps?), Thundercracker, Ramjet,
Ransack, Depthcharge, Terradive, Comettor, Firebot, Oceanglide, Waterlog,
Iceberg, Oval, Dune Runner and Sky Blast. Discounting the two that have a
decent chance of being RiD-figures, that's still fifteen unused names. If
they were all minicons, that's still another five sets. 3 and change if all
the sets are combiner teams. And the initial wave proved to be a mix of
names that were found in the trademark database: Cylconus, Crumplezone,
Jolt, Leader-1, Swindle, etc. and names that weren't: Starscream, Sureshock,
Smokescreen, Mirage. And the names trademarked thus far may only be for the
first two waves.
At the risk of being on a tangent, I really hope that Inferno winds up being
the Autobot Ultra. Fire engines are popular altmodes, they're a heroic
standby, they're a large vehicle, and kids are used to them being on the
front lines of TF after RiD. A deluxe Ramjet wouldn't surprise me in the
least, either.
Lets assume, just for fun, equal numbers of releases per sizeclass, with
Armada, matching a previous line. If Armada had the same releases, total, as
RiD, with the same proportions, it would wind up packing 65 minicons
(assuming only Sideways had more than one packed with him) and 25 larger
figures. If Beast Machines were matched for new mold work, there would be 61
minicons and 18 larger figures. Or if you count the whole of BM, you wind up
with 69 minicons and 26 larger figures. Take the line-indescriminant totals
for 2000-2001, and divide by 3/4ths, and you have about 92 minicons and 41
larger figures, though that's way too large a tally for a single toyline to
hit over 18 months without major importing or repaints, I'd wager.
In any event, I'd bet that we are looking at a rather large line. And I
expect that as it goes along, much like BM and each of the major BW "design
phases", the overall design and toy workings will get even better with
subsequent waves.
-Trent
Zobovor and a Minicon named Penasor
>RiD had its own set of circumstances. In both cases the lines were
>large, 45 figures in Beast Machines, 38 in RiD. If you want to go
>year-by-year, in the whole of 2000 and 2001, Beast Wars, Beast
>Machines and RiD totalled 81 releases. That averages out to about 40
>figures per year, or 60 figures per 18 month period.
I'm not disputing your figures, but didn't RiD last much *longer* in its
original incarnation (no pun intended) as Car Robots? I don't really remember
how long it lasted in Japan, but it seems like Hasbro only released RiD
something like six months ago, and I got the impression Car Robots spanned the
entire year of 2000.
I could be completely off on this, but my main point is that Hasbro released a
great many RiD toys in a far shorter time span than they could have if they
were creating the line as they went. Theoretically, they could have released
the entire toy assortment at once--which it almost seems like they did. :)
>TF has done well of late, as is reflected in Hasbro's big push for
>Armada with previously unheard of (at least since g1s hayday)
>liscensing and promotion.
YES. This, my friends, is the merchandising I've wanted to see for
Transformers for a *very* long time now. I've never understood why companies
have continued to churn out all sorts of party favors, school stationery, and
tennis shoes based on summer movies that are completely forgotten about in
three months' time, when Transformers--one of the mainstays in the toy
industry--has been completely overlooked in this country for years.
>fast food promotions
I've heard some buzzing about this, but has this actually been confirmed? (I
mean, it *does* seem inevitable, but...)
>At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if we only have heard about 1/3rd of
>the total line, given the initial wave sizes, the massive push being given
>to the line, and the success of its predecessors.
>Not to mention the plethora of names that have been trademarked.
I personally don't attribute too much significance to this, considering how
frequently the actual character names change before the toys' final release.
(Remember Aquasting? Or Soulstice? Or Skidmark, Mudobber, Rumble, Kamilion,
Blitzwing, Skybolt, and Ravage?)
>Fortress Maximus (possibly a contengency in case of a RiD store
>exclusive)
Hasbro's been enamored with that name for years, given that they considered it
for both Omega Supreme and Metroplex. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they
had some gigantic Armada city Transformer in the works. (Imagine what Fort Max
would have been like if every single one of his guns and gimmicks were
activated by a separate Minicon attachment? Oh, that would so rock.)
>Jetfire (final Stormjet name, perhaps?)
I sure hope so. I mean, to me it's obviously Jetfire anyway, but giving the
toy the "correct" name would be the icing on the oil cake.
>At the risk of being on a tangent, I really hope that Inferno winds up
>being the Autobot Ultra. Fire engines are popular altmodes, they're a
>heroic standby, they're a large vehicle, and kids are used to them being
>on the front lines of TF after RiD. A deluxe Ramjet wouldn't surprise me
>in the least, either.
That's assuming, if the Inferno name is used again, that they actually apply it
to a fire truck. :)
>In any event, I'd bet that we are looking at a rather large line.
I'd say that's a safe bet. And, for the first time since around the end of
Beast Wars, right now we have *no* idea how long Armada is scheduled to last.
We knew that Beast Machines would be the conclusion of Hasbro's five-year
beasties plan, and of course RiD *couldn't* have lasted more than a year, but
there's no telling with Armada. It might only carry us into next year, or we
might be plugging in new Minicons in the year 2005. :)
>And I expect that as it goes along, much like BM and each of the major
>BW "design phases", the overall design and toy workings will get even
>better with subsequent waves.
Without having had an opportunity to examine the Minicons gimmick first-hand, I
have no idea how smoothly the toys operate. Something tells me that if Armada
is as successful as Hasbro's banking on, we'll see some new variations on the
basic Miniconcept. Ten-member gestalt teams, battery-powered Minicons that
activate electronic gimmicks... the possibilities are endless, really. :)
--
Zobovor
Love to eats them mousies; mousies what I love to eats.
Bite they tiny heads off; nibble on they tiny feets.
David Willis
of
> Beast Wars, right now we have *no* idea how long Armada is scheduled to
last.
> We knew that Beast Machines would be the conclusion of Hasbro's five-year
> beasties plan, and of course RiD *couldn't* have lasted more than a year,
but
> there's no telling with Armada. It might only carry us into next year, or
we
> might be plugging in new Minicons in the year 2005. :)
That's not entirely true, Zob. It says all over Hasbro's Toy Fair stuff
that
the line is to last 18 months. Summer 02 - December 03. It's actually
the first time we know when the line is exactly going to end before it even
begins!
--David
www.itswalky.com
Cyb
wrote:
>
>Now, the last time hasbro produced 18 months of product for its own market
>was Beast Machines, which pulls down an impressive 37 released, new molds.
>The number would be 39 were we counting exclusives (and thus
>Megabolt/Suprimal), but those didn't make the cut for main line release. RiD
>had its own set of circumstances. In both cases the lines were large, 45
>figures in Beast Machines, 38 in RiD. If you want to go year-by-year, in the
>whole of 2000 and 2001, Beast Wars, Beast Machines and RiD totalled 81
>releases. That averages out to about 40 figures per year, or 60 figures per
>18 month period. In any event, Hasbro likes its TF lines large, much larger,
>it seems than the beast wars eras. 1998 had 25 figures, for instance.
You gotta remember too tho, that all the CR molds were all done and
ready to use. Hasbro did remold a few of them a bit of course (FC
doesn't fire all his missiles at once, Prowl's doors don't break off
quite so easy, etc etc) but nothing major, though one has to wonder
why Scourge has taken so damn long. At any rate, it's tougher to make
molds as you go, as was done with BW and BM, but all the CR stuff was
done and finished with by 2000 in Japan, so Hasbro had pleanty of time
to import and update and release the line at once.
In Japan I believe they were released over time, like God Magnus was
released months after FC was for example.
>
>TF has done well of late, as is reflected in Hasbro's big push for Armada
>with previously unheard of (at least since g1s hayday) liscensing and
>promotion. 52 episodes, a comic book, minicomics, children's books, fast
>food promotions a CCG and a video game to name a few. Joe and TF are
>specificly mentioned by Hasbro as being a chunk of what put them back in the
>black, and Joe is profiting from it. Something like 144 figures over two
>years? that's 36 two-packs a year, and that doesn't even count vehicles. And
>Joe hasn't had the top-ten sales figures TF has had over the past six years.
Also you need to remember that BW was animated in CG, which is a lot
more expensive and time consuming to do than cel animation. I mean,
BW and BM were 13 episodes a season (except BW season 1), whereas cel
shows are something like 26 or more episodes per season.
As for GI Joe, they are much cheaper to produce as a lot less
engineering needs to go into them since they don't transform or
anything. Actually, they are all really just variations on the same
mold, so 144 figures over two years isn't out of the question, though
you have to wonder where they'll come up with all the names.
>
>Also, lets look at initial wave size. Beast Machines had initial figure
>waves of basics, deluxes and megas. Ultras and Supreme didn't show up until
>a bit later, and the initial waves were 3 basics, 2 deluxes and 2 megas.
>According to the toyfair press release, Armada is going to hit the scene
>with 5 basics, 3 deluxes, 2 megas an Ultra and a Super, all in August. 7 vs
>12. That's a bit more out the door almost immediately. RiD's initial wave
>was similarly sized, but with 3 basics, 3 deluxes, 2 megas an ultra and a
>pair of supers.
Yeah, Hasbro was overly cautious with the beast era toys in terms of
size. BW originals didn't have anyone over deluxe until Scorponok and
Polar Claw, the Transmetals went two or three waves before they saw an
Ultra, the Fuzors never went above a deluxe and the TM2s went two or
more waves as well before they got even a mega sized one.
And in all of BW and BM there were only two supers, and both were the
OpOp mold, and the BM one was limited release. And then there's
supreme Cheetor, but who wants to remember him?
RID, on the other hand had two supers right away in the first wave,
and ARM is releasing stuff in a larger size scale/price point in their
first wave which is pretty durn bold. Note how they dare not release
any larger characters unless they have the name 'Optimus Prime' or
'Megatron' though. Early on, at least.
>
>At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if we only have heard about 1/3rd of
>the total line, given the initial wave sizes, the massive push being given
>to the line, and the success of its predecessors. Not to mention the
>plethora of names that have been trademarked. Yeah, minicon multipacks can
>sure devour them fast, but even so, Hasbro has seen fit to register: Blurr,
>Inferno, Fortress Maximus (possibly a contengency in case of a RiD store
>exclusive), Jetfire (final Stormjet name, perhaps?), Thundercracker, Ramjet,
>Ransack, Depthcharge, Terradive, Comettor, Firebot, Oceanglide, Waterlog,
>Iceberg, Oval, Dune Runner and Sky Blast. Discounting the two that have a
>decent chance of being RiD-figures, that's still fifteen unused names. If
>they were all minicons, that's still another five sets. 3 and change if all
>the sets are combiner teams. And the initial wave proved to be a mix of
>names that were found in the trademark database: Cylconus, Crumplezone,
>Jolt, Leader-1, Swindle, etc. and names that weren't: Starscream, Sureshock,
>Smokescreen, Mirage. And the names trademarked thus far may only be for the
>first two waves.
TMing names doesn't always mean it's being done for toys tho. It
could be done for the comic or show. And hopefully they do rename
Storm Jet into Jetfire, because god knows if they don't I sure as hell
ain't calling him Storm Jet. Dumb name.
And shouldn't Hasbro have the name 'Starscream' as a registered TM by
now? I mean, if they didn't by right they should have lost the TM as
he hasn't had a toy since his G1 release, unless you count the G2
Smokescreen repaint (Starscream & BB), but I dunno if Takara and
Hasbor share trademarks...
>
>At the risk of being on a tangent, I really hope that Inferno winds up being
>the Autobot Ultra. Fire engines are popular altmodes, they're a heroic
>standby, they're a large vehicle, and kids are used to them being on the
>front lines of TF after RiD. A deluxe Ramjet wouldn't surprise me in the
>least, either.
I have troubles associating Inferno with being an Autobot or even a
good guy. Now, if he refers to Megatron as his queen, that I can deal
with ;)
>
>Lets assume, just for fun, equal numbers of releases per sizeclass, with
>Armada, matching a previous line. If Armada had the same releases, total, as
>RiD, with the same proportions, it would wind up packing 65 minicons
>(assuming only Sideways had more than one packed with him) and 25 larger
>figures. If Beast Machines were matched for new mold work, there would be 61
>minicons and 18 larger figures. Or if you count the whole of BM, you wind up
>with 69 minicons and 26 larger figures. Take the line-indescriminant totals
>for 2000-2001, and divide by 3/4ths, and you have about 92 minicons and 41
>larger figures, though that's way too large a tally for a single toyline to
>hit over 18 months without major importing or repaints, I'd wager.
On a side note, I'm kinda let down with the basic price point stuff
since BM ended. The RID basics, while they had their charm, can't
hold a candle to any of the BW or BM basics in terms of anything
except maybe the coolness of spychanger Scourge. It kinda sucks that
the minicons will probably continue this trend, though they seem more
poseable than the spychangers, and you do get three, though the price
is jacked up so you're paying the same price per bot anyay (roughly
$2.50).
>
>In any event, I'd bet that we are looking at a rather large line. And I
>expect that as it goes along, much like BM and each of the major BW "design
>phases", the overall design and toy workings will get even better with
>subsequent waves.
Without a doubt. Armada is gonna be a pretty cool line, me thinks. I
just hope the show is better than RID. That's not too much to ask, is
it?
Trent Troop
"Zobovor and a Minicon named Penasor" <zob...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020223005530...@mb-cm.aol.com...
> Trent Troop wrote:
>
> >RiD had its own set of circumstances. In both cases the lines were
> >large, 45 figures in Beast Machines, 38 in RiD. If you want to go
> >year-by-year, in the whole of 2000 and 2001, Beast Wars, Beast
> >Machines and RiD totalled 81 releases. That averages out to about 40
> >figures per year, or 60 figures per 18 month period.
>
> I'm not disputing your figures, but didn't RiD last much *longer* in its
> original incarnation (no pun intended) as Car Robots? I don't really
remember
> how long it lasted in Japan, but it seems like Hasbro only released RiD
> something like six months ago, and I got the impression Car Robots spanned
the
> entire year of 2000.
RiD will be lasting nearly a year stateside, with the final vehicon
repaint-wave.
> >fast food promotions
>
> I've heard some buzzing about this, but has this actually been confirmed?
(I
> mean, it *does* seem inevitable, but...)
http://www.alteredstatesmag.com/mar2002/graphics/tf/Plan.jpg
Its from Toy Fair. Check under promotions: Major QSR. "Quick Service
Restraunt"
> >At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if we only have heard about 1/3rd
of
> >the total line, given the initial wave sizes, the massive push being
given
> >to the line, and the success of its predecessors.
>
> >Not to mention the plethora of names that have been trademarked.
>
> I personally don't attribute too much significance to this, considering
how
> frequently the actual character names change before the toys' final
release.
> (Remember Aquasting? Or Soulstice? Or Skidmark, Mudobber, Rumble,
Kamilion,
> Blitzwing, Skybolt, and Ravage?)
Aye, I do. But those were never entered into the Trademark database. This
isn't like previous acts, where Hasbro just TMs a name. They've been
registering dozens. Which costs money, but also gives them a firm, legal
grasp on things.
> >Jetfire (final Stormjet name, perhaps?)
>
> I sure hope so. I mean, to me it's obviously Jetfire anyway, but giving
the
> toy the "correct" name would be the icing on the oil cake.
Well, Stormjet reeks of a placeholder name to me. Its the original toy's
name, with the words flipped.
> >At the risk of being on a tangent, I really hope that Inferno winds up
> >being the Autobot Ultra. Fire engines are popular altmodes, they're a
> >heroic standby, they're a large vehicle, and kids are used to them being
> >on the front lines of TF after RiD. A deluxe Ramjet wouldn't surprise me
> >in the least, either.
>
> That's assuming, if the Inferno name is used again, that they actually
apply it
> to a fire truck. :)
They registered it as intent to use. So far the TF "ITU" trademarks have
gotten used. Its not exactly a form-specific name, but it does have to deal
with fire, and in the absence of a flamethrower role-play toy or a fire ant,
Fire engine is a pretty good possibility. I am more interested to find out
whether or nto he becomes a Minicon, like Mirage.
> >In any event, I'd bet that we are looking at a rather large line.
>
> I'd say that's a safe bet. And, for the first time since around the end
of
> Beast Wars, right now we have *no* idea how long Armada is scheduled to
last.
Actually yes we do. ToyFare magazine mentioned new product coming in 2004,
and then there's this:
http://www.alteredstatesmag.com/mar2002/graphics/tf/Plan2.jpg
Year and a half. Just like Beast Machines.
> We knew that Beast Machines would be the conclusion of Hasbro's five-year
> beasties plan, and of course RiD *couldn't* have lasted more than a year,
but
> there's no telling with Armada. It might only carry us into next year, or
we
> might be plugging in new Minicons in the year 2005. :)
As much as I hope so, as I'm enamored of the miniconcept, (heh, sorry, had
to be done), I think the minicons will end with Armada.
-Trent
Paul Segal
>Trent Troop wrote:
>>At the risk of being on a tangent, I really hope that Inferno winds up being
>>the Autobot Ultra. Fire engines are popular altmodes, they're a heroic
>>standby, they're a large vehicle, and kids are used to them being on the
>>front lines of TF after RiD. A deluxe Ramjet wouldn't surprise me in the
>>least, either.
>
>I have troubles associating Inferno with being an Autobot or even a
>good guy. Now, if he refers to Megatron as his queen, that I can deal
>with ;)
Wait...so you could deal with Inferno being an Autobot if he referred to
MNegatron as his queen?
"Optimus, my queen is planning an attack on our base!"
"Good work, Inferno! WE must prepare to defend against Megatron's attack!"
"Yes! We must destroy my queen!"
That sort of dialogue would be really, really funny for about one episode.
-Paul Segal
Email: aster...@yahoo.com ICQ: 24024819 AIM: asterphage
http://www.crosswinds.net/~asterphage
Wishin' I was livin' like a hitman
Zobovor and a Minicon named Penasor
>RiD will be lasting nearly a year stateside, with the final vehicon
>repaint-wave.
Okay. My point was that RiD is sort of an anomaly, in that Hasbro normally
wouldn't have been able to release that many toys in such a short space of
time. Ultimately, I guess it doesn't matter, since the point is they *did*
release them, and even augmented the line with more repaints and brand-new
designs to make the line even *bigger.*
>Its from Toy Fair. Check under promotions: Major QSR. "Quick Service
>Restraunt"
Ah, I see. I'd never heard the term QSR before. (Can we assume it's going to
be another McDonald's promotion?)
>This isn't like previous acts, where Hasbro just TMs a name. They've
>been registering dozens. Which costs money, but also gives them a
>firm, legal grasp on things.
Unusual for Hasbro to take such an aggressive approach. Hmm.
>Well, Stormjet reeks of a placeholder name to me. Its the original toy's
>name, with the words flipped.
Agreed.
>As much as I hope so, as I'm enamored of the miniconcept, (heh,
>sorry, had to be done), I think the minicons will end with Armada.
I'm sure they will. I just wasn't aware when I wrote that post that there was
already a set date for the end of Armada. (Ooh, watch out! I'm being
dangerous! Heh.)
And by the way, before you pat yourself on the back for coining that turn of
phrase, I suggest you reread the post that you were replying to in the first
place. :)
Cyb
>>I have troubles associating Inferno with being an Autobot or even a
>>good guy. Now, if he refers to Megatron as his queen, that I can deal
>>with ;)
>
>Wait...so you could deal with Inferno being an Autobot if he referred to
>MNegatron as his queen?
>
>"Optimus, my queen is planning an attack on our base!"
>"Good work, Inferno! WE must prepare to defend against Megatron's attack!"
>"Yes! We must destroy my queen!"
>
>That sort of dialogue would be really, really funny for about one episode.
>
Heh, I didn't imply it as "If Inferno isn't a Decepticon he must call
Megatron his queen", I said I have trouble associating the name
Inferno with being an Autobot, even though he was an Autobot first.
It was just a silly thing anyway, as was intended by the ;)
Still though, I have to admit the mock dialogue you wrote had me
laughing quite a bit, and probably will for a few days. I have a
weird sense of humor like that.
Like 'The Low Road', I thought that was the most hilarious ending in
the world. Who knows why I don't like RID, I guess too many jokes or
something, and most of the kinda bad. Maybe if they farted more or
something...
<Optimus> Autobots, we need to stop Megatron!
<Prowl> Okay Optimus, we can do it!
<Side Burn> *farts*
<X-Brawn> Nice one!
Cyb
wrote:
>That averages out to about 40 figures per year, or 60 figures per
>18 month period. In any event, Hasbro likes its TF lines large, much larger,
>it seems than the beast wars eras. 1998 had 25 figures, for instance.
>
Before I forget, 1998 was the Fuzor/Transmetal year. Fuzors were
generally a flop, the reason they never went above the deluxe size
(unless you count Tigerhawk, who was really a TM2, but I digress).
Transmetals, on the other hand, were some of the toughest to engineer
TFs. I don't know this for a fact, but looks at it this way:
- Not one single Transmetal was released that didn't have the name of
a character in the show. Everyone knows show characters sell better
than non-show characters, and this was the first time Hasbro did this
in the entire Beast era (and the last). Of course, this is excepting
Scavenger, who was supposed to be Inferno, and there's no one who can
say he's not Inferno damnit.
- Everyone above the deluxe size was put into the show. Primal, Megs
and Rampage and Depth Charge was added later. Again, excepting
Scavenger. Anyone still wondering why he's still warming the shelves
some places? I found one at a TRU a couple months back, along with
the original Inferno.
- No basics in the TM line. Again, the first/last time this was done
by Hasbro. You can assume that basics would be very hard to engineer
since TMs needed that third mode.
- No gimmicks for anyone below the ultra size. Again, probably would
be too expensive to produce.
- All the deluxe molds except Airazor and Waspinator were repainted,
some more than just once (Rattrap).
Anyways, that's probably why 1998 had so few releases. Simply put,
TMets were expensive to produce or engineer and Hasbro probably had
some problems with them.
Paul Segal
>
>- No gimmicks for anyone below the ultra size. Again, probably would
>be too expensive to produce.
What do you mean by "gimmicks"? TM Scavenger had those drills that rotate as
you roll him forward, and *all* the Fuzors has gimmicks; missile launchers,
water-squirters, spring-loaded striking/grabbing actions, claw/tusk grabbing
actions, etc... actually, I can't remember if Air Hammer had a gimmick, that
may be an exception.
Now, no Transmetals below the Mega size had gimmicks AFAIK (I don't have most
of them), but that's probably because the vehicle modes accounted for all the
complexity and plastic that would otherwise be used for a gimmick.
Zobovor and a Minicon named Penasor
>I can't remember if Air Hammer had a gimmick, that may be an
>exception.
He had that little spring-loaded jaw in beast mode. :)
Trent Troop
"Cyb" <c...@nospam.frad.org> wrote in message
news:3c7891cb...@news.rcn.com...
> On Fri, 22 Feb 2002 06:33:51 GMT, "Trent Troop" <trent...@home.com>
> wrote:
>
> >That averages out to about 40 figures per year, or 60 figures per
> >18 month period. In any event, Hasbro likes its TF lines large, much
larger,
> >it seems than the beast wars eras. 1998 had 25 figures, for instance.
> >
>
> Before I forget, 1998 was the Fuzor/Transmetal year. Fuzors were
> generally a flop, the reason they never went above the deluxe size
> (unless you count Tigerhawk, who was really a TM2, but I digress).
Well, that doesn't exactly work, given the timetables. There's usually about
12 months, concept to shelf, and by the time sales figures for either style
were measurable, it would have been too late to implement changes or new
figures in the same series of figures. Fuzors were the low-pricepoint line,
Transmetals were the high. At least that's the way it was presented at the
time. You'll note there were no basic Transmetals either. The fact that
Transmetal sales were better than fuzor sales is probably why we got
Transmetal 2s instead of Fuzor 2s, though.
> Transmetals, on the other hand, were some of the toughest to engineer
> TFs. I don't know this for a fact, but looks at it this way:
Not any more than any other TF release, there's nothing particularly special
about them, design wise, than having some chromed peices. The intermediate
modes weren't exactly stunning alternate transformations. And as for sheer
numbers of molded peices, the fuzors were no slackers, especially with
figures like Quickstrike, who's individual neck vertibre really put him over
the top.
> - No basics in the TM line. Again, the first/last time this was done
> by Hasbro. You can assume that basics would be very hard to engineer
> since TMs needed that third mode.
Considering the third modes consisted of, in most cases, some pop out wheels
or a pair of fold-out wings, that can't be the whole situation. The TMs were
meant to be the pricer-range figures and the fuzors the low. The line had
two untested concepts in it, and the one that had the cheaper pricepoint was
assigned the non-established characters, as basics generally sold themselves
based upon affordability.
> - No gimmicks for anyone below the ultra size. Again, probably would
> be too expensive to produce.
I doubt it was expense. Take Jetstorm or Blastcharge (or even Mirage) into
account. Equally complex in design to, say, Cheetor or Rhinox's transmetal
forms. Yet also with spring-loaded actions and firing missiles.
> Anyways, that's probably why 1998 had so few releases. Simply put,
> TMets were expensive to produce or engineer and Hasbro probably had
> some problems with them.
Actually, '98 had more mass-market releases than '96, '97 or '99. There were
21 releases in '96, 21 in '97 (Machine wars had 12 on top of this, but was a
chain exclusive), 25 in '98, and 23 in '99 (six of which were FK repaints).
Cyb
>Cyb wrote:
>>
>>- No gimmicks for anyone below the ultra size. Again, probably would
>>be too expensive to produce.
>
>What do you mean by "gimmicks"? TM Scavenger had those drills that rotate as
>you roll him forward, and *all* the Fuzors has gimmicks; missile launchers,
>water-squirters, spring-loaded striking/grabbing actions, claw/tusk grabbing
>actions, etc... actually, I can't remember if Air Hammer had a gimmick, that
>may be an exception.
>
>Now, no Transmetals below the Mega size had gimmicks AFAIK (I don't have most
>of them), but that's probably because the vehicle modes accounted for all the
>complexity and plastic that would otherwise be used for a gimmick.
Hm, Scavanger seems to the be the exception here again, heh, but TM
Megs and Optimus don't have anything you can even remotly consider a
gimmick aside from the third mode which was the gimmick. I wasn't
really speaking of the fuzors tho.
Straight Edge
>may be an exception.>>
Snapping jaw/hand action...crappy, but a gimmick none the less.
---------------------------------------------
Straight-Edge
"Forgiveness starts with yourself." - Goldfinger
"You can't assess the future if you're living in the past" - Bad Religion
"For all the pain, its a good bye..." - Lagwagon
Cyb
wrote:
>
>"Cyb" <c...@nospam.frad.org> wrote in message
>news:3c7891cb...@news.rcn.com...
>> On Fri, 22 Feb 2002 06:33:51 GMT, "Trent Troop" <trent...@home.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >That averages out to about 40 figures per year, or 60 figures per
>> >18 month period. In any event, Hasbro likes its TF lines large, much
>larger,
>> >it seems than the beast wars eras. 1998 had 25 figures, for instance.
>> >
>>
>> Before I forget, 1998 was the Fuzor/Transmetal year. Fuzors were
>> generally a flop, the reason they never went above the deluxe size
>> (unless you count Tigerhawk, who was really a TM2, but I digress).
>
>Well, that doesn't exactly work, given the timetables. There's usually about
>12 months, concept to shelf, and by the time sales figures for either style
>were measurable, it would have been too late to implement changes or new
>figures in the same series of figures. Fuzors were the low-pricepoint line,
>Transmetals were the high. At least that's the way it was presented at the
>time. You'll note there were no basic Transmetals either. The fact that
>Transmetal sales were better than fuzor sales is probably why we got
>Transmetal 2s instead of Fuzor 2s, though.
Hrm, that does make a lot of sense. Actually I think the fuzors would
have worked a lot better if they selected better animal combos. I
mean a shark and a bird, what the hell.
I always thought the Fuzors came out before the TMs tho, even if only
by a few months. I can't even remember as I wasn't into the whole toy
collecting thing back then.
>
>> Transmetals, on the other hand, were some of the toughest to engineer
>> TFs. I don't know this for a fact, but looks at it this way:
>
>Not any more than any other TF release, there's nothing particularly special
>about them, design wise, than having some chromed peices. The intermediate
>modes weren't exactly stunning alternate transformations. And as for sheer
>numbers of molded peices, the fuzors were no slackers, especially with
>figures like Quickstrike, who's individual neck vertibre really put him over
>the top.
Well, good or not, third modes still need to be engineered, and it
definetly added to the number of pieces required for the molds to work
right. I mean, if Rattrap didn't have that third mode his whole rear
(heh) would be different. Rampage wouldn't have needed to many joints
in his crab 'arms' and so on.
Quickstrike is really the exception for the complexity of the Fuzors,
and also each of his neck pieces is the same exact thing as opposed to
say, Tarantulas who has an overly complex way of making his rear wheel
become his two shoulder pads.
>
>> - No basics in the TM line. Again, the first/last time this was done
>> by Hasbro. You can assume that basics would be very hard to engineer
>> since TMs needed that third mode.
>
>Considering the third modes consisted of, in most cases, some pop out wheels
>or a pair of fold-out wings, that can't be the whole situation. The TMs were
> meant to be the pricer-range figures and the fuzors the low. The line had
>two untested concepts in it, and the one that had the cheaper pricepoint was
>assigned the non-established characters, as basics generally sold themselves
>based upon affordability.
Heh, also it would be kinda tough to explain why Scorponok, a black
scorpion, had become a hybrid scorpion/cobra and turned green and
yellow. I'm sure the writers of BW could have thought something up,
but it was probably a lot easier to explain a transition to TM than a
transition that involved getting a whole new alt mode.
>
>> - No gimmicks for anyone below the ultra size. Again, probably would
>> be too expensive to produce.
>
>I doubt it was expense. Take Jetstorm or Blastcharge (or even Mirage) into
>account. Equally complex in design to, say, Cheetor or Rhinox's transmetal
>forms. Yet also with spring-loaded actions and firing missiles.
Well, that was the point. I was comparing the 1998 releases to BM
since it was brought up that the toy lines have been getting
progressivly larger each year. Also Harbro is learning, which is
always good. Though some people didn't like the BM line, it had a lot
of superior releases in many ways to a lot of the BW line, though the
gimmicks got in the way more times than not.
>
>> Anyways, that's probably why 1998 had so few releases. Simply put,
>> TMets were expensive to produce or engineer and Hasbro probably had
>> some problems with them.
>
>Actually, '98 had more mass-market releases than '96, '97 or '99. There were
>21 releases in '96, 21 in '97 (Machine wars had 12 on top of this, but was a
>chain exclusive), 25 in '98, and 23 in '99 (six of which were FK repaints).
>
>
Well, that's what I get for not doing my research, heh. But overall
Hasbro kept the releases to around 20 - 25 throughout BW, and the
thread was comparing '98 to BM and RID, though it looks like my
reasoning has been shot down since '98 had the most releases out of BW
and was the only year with no repaints. Ah well.
David Willis
> some more than just once (Rattrap).
Airazor and Waspinator both got Fox Kids repaints, IIRC.
--David
www.itswalky.com
Túrin
> - Not one single Transmetal was released that didn't have the name of
> a character in the show. Everyone knows show characters sell better
> than non-show characters, and this was the first time Hasbro did this
> in the entire Beast era (and the last). Of course, this is excepting
> Scavenger, who was supposed to be Inferno, and there's no one who can
> say he's not Inferno damnit.
Scavenger is not Inferno. I never considered him as such, and I never
will. Scavenger is not a fitting upgrade for Inferno, who is a great
character and toy. Scavenger just... isn't.
> - No basics in the TM line.
Yeah, that was too bad. The Fuzors didn't do much for me. Not to
mention only two of them ever got on the show. (Should have had
Injector on the show, that would have ruled.)
> - No gimmicks for anyone below the ultra size. Again, probably would
> be too expensive to produce.
I consider the transport modes for the TMs as gimmicks.
> - All the deluxe molds except Airazor and Waspinator were repainted,
> some more than just once (Rattrap).
Er, Airazor and Waspy were repainted as well. Didn't you know? TM
Waspy turned yellow, and I call him TM Buzzsaw, and Airazor got a light
blue thing going.
Túrin
http://knoledge.org/mormegil/ TF Song Parodies, Twisted Screenshots,
and Fanfic
"In the country of the blind, the one-eyed man is hunted down and
killed."
David Willis
> > a character in the show. Everyone knows show characters sell better
> > than non-show characters, and this was the first time Hasbro did this
> > in the entire Beast era (and the last). Of course, this is excepting
> > Scavenger, who was supposed to be Inferno, and there's no one who can
> > say he's not Inferno damnit.
>
> Scavenger is not Inferno. I never considered him as such, and I never
> will. Scavenger is not a fitting upgrade for Inferno, who is a great
> character and toy. Scavenger just... isn't.
*rolls up sleeves* Dem's fightin' words!
You know, most people have a fondness for their first toys. Inferno was
my first Beast Wars toy -- a gift for my birthday. I have no fondness for
Inferno. I hate his toy. From his simplistic, boring transformation, to
his simplistic, boring colors (RED! ALL RED!), to the way he can't
support himself on his legs at all in beast mode, to the way all his limbs
pop off if you so much as look at him.... I'm surprised I bought another
Beast Wars toy for myself thereafter.
Now, Scavenger is beautiful. An excellent toy. And worthy of the
name and character of Inferno.
Case closed. Bwa ha.
--David
www.itswalky.com
Paul Segal
>
>Scavenger is not Inferno. I never considered him as such, and I never
>will. Scavenger is not a fitting upgrade for Inferno, who is a great
>character and toy. Scavenger just... isn't.
He's not a totally awful toy... take Scavenger, pop off his legs and ant head
pieces, and put them away. Now he's a cool Cybertronian drill tank (At least, I
think it looks cool. Others may not like the look of it, with the techy drill
machine protruding from the organic ant shell, but I do), and without the ant
kibble his robot mode looks really good.
Túrin
>
> > Scavenger is not Inferno. I never considered him as such, and I never
> > will. Scavenger is not a fitting upgrade for Inferno, who is a great
> > character and toy. Scavenger just... isn't.
>
> *rolls up sleeves* Dem's fightin' words!
<runs away screaming like a little girl>
...
Wait, this is online, what am I afraid of? Bring it on!
> You know, most people have a fondness for their first toys. Inferno was
> my first Beast Wars toy -- a gift for my birthday. I have no fondness for
> Inferno. I hate his toy. From his simplistic, boring transformation, to
> his simplistic, boring colors (RED! ALL RED!), to the way he can't
> support himself on his legs at all in beast mode, to the way all his limbs
> pop off if you so much as look at him.... I'm surprised I bought another
> Beast Wars toy for myself thereafter.
My Inferno stands on his beast legs. I understand not many do, but mine
does. Nyeh, nyeh, nyeh. :-)
Plus, he's on all red, he has that green motif on his abdomen.
> Now, Scavenger is beautiful. An excellent toy. And worthy of the
> name and character of Inferno.
IMO, Scavenger has an ugly face which to me looks nothing like Inferno.
IMO, his spindly beast legs ruin all the modes. I can get him to stand
on the beast legs, but it's difficult and doesn't look so good. They
point every which way in robot mode and get in the way horribly.
> Case closed. Bwa ha.
Yes, but the other way. Neener, neener, neener.
Túrin
trenttroop
> On Fri, 22 Feb 2002 06:33:51 GMT, "Trent Troop" <trent...@home.com>
> Also you need to remember that BW was animated in CG, which is a lot
> more expensive and time consuming to do than cel animation. I mean,
> BW and BM were 13 episodes a season (except BW season 1), whereas cel
> shows are something like 26 or more episodes per season.
Not always. Thirteen a season is a standard, even in cel animation. a lot of
shows, especially in their first season, last only that many episodes.
> As for GI Joe, they are much cheaper to produce as a lot less
> engineering needs to go into them since they don't transform or
> anything. Actually, they are all really just variations on the same
> mold, so 144 figures over two years isn't out of the question, though
> you have to wonder where they'll come up with all the names.
Well, they aren't variations on the same mold. Yes, they use the same
joint-system, but they're unique figures all around. And the decision to
make such a large line is more important, at least to me, than the
simplicity of the figures. If anything, their decision to make the line
larger is telling, because they could easily get away with a smaller, and
much less economicly risky, line.
Actually, yes it does. The trademarks in the database are specificly tagged
for certain uses. All the ones mentioned were trademarked as "ITU" (Intent
to Use), as "action figures, toy vehicles and toy robots convertible into
other visual forms", which is the same trademark description on all the
recent (within the last few years) TF trademarks.
Stormjet wasn't trademarked, at least not filed for registration. It was
merely a solicitation listing, and is thus VERY subject to change.
> And shouldn't Hasbro have the name 'Starscream' as a registered TM by
> now? I mean, if they didn't by right they should have lost the TM as
> he hasn't had a toy since his G1 release, unless you count the G2
> Smokescreen repaint (Starscream & BB), but I dunno if Takara and
> Hasbor share trademarks...
Hasbro and Takara don't share Trademarks to my knowlege, but there were
multiple starscream releases through the years: the original, the pretender,
the action master, G2 Starscream and the Starscream in MW. Why they haven't
bothered to register Starscream yet is a mystery, but the name has gotten
recurrent use, though spaced out by several years each time.
> >At the risk of being on a tangent, I really hope that Inferno winds up
being
> >the Autobot Ultra. Fire engines are popular altmodes, they're a heroic
> >standby, they're a large vehicle, and kids are used to them being on the
> >front lines of TF after RiD. A deluxe Ramjet wouldn't surprise me in the
> >least, either.
>
> I have troubles associating Inferno with being an Autobot or even a
> good guy. Now, if he refers to Megatron as his queen, that I can deal
> with ;)
It got registered, and outside of a transforming flamethrower role-play toy,
I don't see him being much else besides a Fire Engine. And you're not going
to see villanous rescue vehicles.
> On a side note, I'm kinda let down with the basic price point stuff
> since BM ended. The RID basics, while they had their charm, can't
> hold a candle to any of the BW or BM basics in terms of anything
> except maybe the coolness of spychanger Scourge.
Blame Takara's glee at ressurecting Bruticus, again.
> It kinda sucks that
> the minicons will probably continue this trend, though they seem more
> poseable than the spychangers, and you do get three, though the price
> is jacked up so you're paying the same price per bot anyay (roughly
> $2.50).
True, but the minicons will have a lot more features as well. And who knows,
Hasbro may surprise us.
> >
> >In any event, I'd bet that we are looking at a rather large line. And I
> >expect that as it goes along, much like BM and each of the major BW
"design
> >phases", the overall design and toy workings will get even better with
> >subsequent waves.
>
> Without a doubt. Armada is gonna be a pretty cool line, me thinks. I
> just hope the show is better than RID. That's not too much to ask, is
> it?
They'd have to try pretty hard to beat out RiD, in the areas of sheer
goofiness.
-Trent
ShadowWing
Cyb wrote
>
>Hm, Scavanger seems to the be the exception here again, heh, but TM
>Megs and Optimus don't have anything you can even remotly consider a
>gimmick aside from the third mode which was the gimmick.
Primal had that missle launcher that fired his maces. (Not that stayed
in the launcher for very long. Fire them fast, or it'll fire on it's own.)
Doubled as propulsion for his skyboard augment.
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cappeca
> > will. Scavenger is not a fitting upgrade for Inferno, who is a great
> > character and toy. Scavenger just... isn't.
> name and character of Inferno.
>
> Case closed. Bwa ha.
>
:-)
Cesar